========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:34:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hailey Tytel Subject: darkover info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There's a great page of Darkover information on the web - it lists all the books, answers any and all darkover-related questions, and has a link to the Darkover mailing list. It's at: http://www.ceremade.dauphine.fr/~rossi/darkover/index.uk.html The person who put this up must have spent a huge amount of time on it... OK, I'll go back to lurking now.... Hailey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:43:26 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Fallen off the list? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > > > Have I fallen off the list or are we just so exhausted from the end of > > > the semester that we're not communicating? > > > > > > Mike Levy > > > > > You lucky people! My teaching for the summer term actually STARTED today, and goes on until July... Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:21:27 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Fallen off the list? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 May 1997 13:04:41 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: > Reading during the summer? I have lovely memories of reading ALL the > time. Those great memories of reading in my bed at 2am on a school > morning trying to hide the light (my elbows were proboably permanently > damaged), of walking through the halls at school reading, of reading on > the school bus, of reading at dinner (my family hated that), of reading > for hours on end during car trips, of finishing a book dehydrated because > I was too engrossed to remember to drink anything. Ahhh, great times. > > -- Joel VanLaven Am I the only one who keeps a box of crud novels in the cupboard for times like these? The literary equivalent of a box of chocolates... Farah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:25:53 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Fallen off the list? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Can someone remind me what Ancienct Shores was about? I commute and do not have access to my bookshelves until the end of May (oh the pain of separation!) Farah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:37:07 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: summer reading Comments: To: Joel VanLaven MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 May 1997 16:21:52 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: > Ouch. I can't imagine what it would have been like to be stuck in a car > for hours without being able to read I have two vivid memories re reading on holiday. One is of reading my way around Ireland as my mother complained bitterly about all the lovely scenery I was missing, and the second when my father took me on holiday (the one and only time) and afterwards said that in future he would leave me in a library for a week with a sleeping bag and a camper stove. Sounded good then, sounds good now. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:38:42 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Darkover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 May 1997 17:15:23 -0400 Lara Edge wrote: > From: Lara Edge > Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:15:23 -0400 > Subject: Darkover > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > I particularly loved reading long series in the endless > >free time of the summer, David Eddings, Cherryh's Merovingen Nights > >series and frequently revisited confortable old Darkover books. > > > > > Speaking of those "comfortable Darkover books:" does anyone have a list or > know where I can get a list of all the Darkover titles? the most recent titles carry a list (in reading order), but i have been very dissapointed in the more recent ones. Nothing happened in Exile's Song. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:00:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Wed, 14 May 1997 16:21:52 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: >> Ouch. I can't imagine what it would have been like to be stuck in a >car >> for hours without being able to read > > >I have two vivid memories re reading on holiday. One is of reading >my way around Ireland as my mother complained bitterly about all >the lovely scenery I was missing, and the second when my father >took me on holiday (the one and only time) and afterwards said that >in future he would leave me in a library for a week with a sleeping >bag and a camper stove. > >Sounded good then, sounds good now. > >Farah My summers were a constant litany of "put down that book and go out and play" so I snuck out a book, climbed a tree, and then read until dinner--only fell out once--hey, it was a good book! Sue ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:45:58 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: summer reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 May 1997 22:52:28 -0400 Sheryl Curtis wrote: reading was a big thing when I grew up and Christmas and birthday > presents were always books. _A Wrinkle in Time_ is the first book I read > that I can actually remember the title of and I can hardly wait until my > kids read English well enough (they go to French school here and start > reading English in Grade 4) so I can give it to them. As for the other > three books, I'll have to look them up. > > Sher > Montreal, Quebec I received my first fantasy book, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, as a gift when I was eight years old and stuck in isolation in hospital for three days. I drove the nurses nuts because I wouldn't turn the light off until I finished it. The first book I remember having that reaction to. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lara Edge Subject: Re: Darkover In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Speaking of those "comfortable Darkover books:" does anyone >have a list or >> know where I can get a list of all the Darkover titles? > > >the most recent titles carry a list (in reading order), but i have been >very dissapointed in the more recent ones. Nothing happened in >Exile's Song. > >Farah I have the books to be very hit-and-miss. Some, such as the Heirs of Hammerfell, were very disappointing; while I found others fascinating, such as The Forbidden Tower. Of course, The Forbidden Tower was the first one I read and maybe because of the "newness" of it, I was enthralled. Then again, I tend to compare everything to The Mists of Avalon.... Lara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:31:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Ancient Shores In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ancient Shores, by Jack McDevitt, is about the contemporary American farm family from the Dakotas (whose land is probably under water right now) who accidentally dig up what looks to be a sailboat. It was obviously abandoned on Earth millions of years ago, but its super high technology. The book features guest appearances by a number of famous scientists and sf writers, including Le Guin, Sagan, Hawking and Benford. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:14:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Fallen off the list RE: Summer Reading??? Hi, Summer reading...what came immediately to mind was as a precocious 4th grader I read A Tree grows In Brooklyn by Betty Smith...was the first time I saw a swear word in print heh heh... But onto other more science-fictional pursuits...sometimes people slap on the label SCI FI when they come across something they do not understand, and for me my slapping of the label has been in the realm of critical theory...yesterday I attended my independent study for my Octavia Butler research project and I asked a very general question about the whole spectrum of literary criticism and discovered from my mentoring prof that there was a time when critical theory was such that the works that the theories were to be applied to became secondary if not unneeded in order to apply a theory of criticism??? That the critical field became a genre in itself to a degree by which you studied theory simple pure theory and found little need for the texts aka the novels, the writer's creations et. al...? I was toying with the idea of including a thorough critical backround with my doctoral work, as in choosing critical theory for one of my interests, but silly me, wanted to actually apply approaches to particular works of fiction, which I thought was the basic idea of analysis in literature...so I throw the question out there, why have theory if you are not applying it to works, I thought this was the basic idea of analysing literature in general?? silly me, asking rhetorical questions....heh heh Jo Ann :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:00:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: June signings at Mysterious Galaxy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For Immediate Release For more information contact: Maryelizabeth Hart 619-278-4004 mystgalaxy@ax.com June Events at Mysterious Galaxy Author: Roby James Title: Committment Event Time: Saturday, June 21, 1:30 PM Author: Will Shetterly Title: Dogland Event Time: Saturday, June 21, 1:30 PM Author: Emma Bull Title: Freedom & Necessity Event Time: Saturday, June 21, 1:30 PM Author: Jak Koke Title: Shadowrun: Stranger Souls Event Time: Saturday, June 21, 1:30 PM Author: Henry Garfield Title: Room 13 Event Time: Saturday, June 28, 1:30 PM Authors will discuss their work and host a Q&A prior to signing books. The events are free and open to the public. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:22:12 -0500 Reply-To: k dawson Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: k dawson Subject: Re: Octavia Butler In-Reply-To: <970515141242_285229826@emout04.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > Hi, > > Summer reading...what came immediately to mind was as a precocious 4th grader > I read A Tree grows In Brooklyn by Betty Smith...was the first time I saw a > swear word in print heh heh... > > But onto other more science-fictional pursuits...sometimes people slap on the > label SCI FI when they come across something they do not understand, and for > me my slapping of the label has been in the realm of critical > theory...yesterday I attended my independent study for my Octavia Butler > research project and I asked a very general question about the whole spectrum > of literary criticism and discovered from my mentoring prof that there was a > time when critical theory was such that the works that the theories were to > be applied to became secondary if not unneeded in order to apply a theory of > criticism??? That the critical field became a genre in itself to a degree by > which you studied theory simple pure theory and found little need for the > texts aka the novels, the writer's creations et. al...? I was toying with > the idea of including a thorough critical backround with my doctoral work, as > in choosing critical theory for one of my interests, but silly me, in facetious fun :)> wanted to actually apply approaches to particular works > of fiction, which I thought was the basic idea of analysis in literature...so > I throw the question out there, why have theory if you are not applying it to > works, I thought this was the basic idea of analysing literature in general?? > > > silly me, asking rhetorical questions....heh heh > > Jo Ann :) > Maybe a lot of fields go through a stage of thinking all they need is theory and no reality. I'm in Social Psychology, where at least some theories seem pretty distant from what goes on in the world. (I.e. famous quote from Kurt Lewin, "father" of social psych: "There is nothing so practical as a good theory.") At the risk of exposing my ignorance, who is Octavia Butler and what has she written? I already have a list of about 20 books to read from these discussions. Oh, comment to Farah. Definitely yes on the concept of books as a box of chocolates. I always read _Restoree_ by Anne McCaffrey whenever I'm sick; it's my comfort book. I like McCaffrey a lot - she often has competent female characters. Although you almost always get a happy ending tied up with a nice, neat bow. For some "reality," I like Sherri S. Tepper for her ability to kick you simultaneously in the heart and the head (I read _Beauty_ in one sitting, crying the whole time). Karen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:11:43 -0400 Reply-To: Nalo Hopkinson Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: RFC822 error: SENDER field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII NH: I'm in the lucky position of having come from a bookish family. Dad was a writer, Mum's a library cataloguer. Don't remember holiday reading separately from other reading, partly because I spent my childhood in the Caribbean, where seasons aren't as clearly defined. Did my share of reading under the covers with a flashlight as a child, but no-one batted an eye at a kid who could get so lost in a book that she'd block out the whole world. My dad did the same all the time. I managed to be a tomboy, too; perfected the art of swinging up into the branches of whatever tree was my current favourite with a book clenched between my teeth. Kid's books I remember fondly are: _A Traveller in Time_ Alison Uttley _Underground Alley_ (forget the author) _Green Knowe Series_ (agh! author's name on my tonguetip, but I can't spit it out) -Gulliver's Travels_ (what did I know from social commentary?) _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ C.S. Lewis (this one was a class text that I read in a matter of days before school even began. Got to read the part of Aslan the Lion when he created the world (what did I know from Christian allegory?). Still remember whole chunks of that text.) _Alice in Wonderland_ and _Through the Looking Glass_ my 1st form English teacher (that would be Grade 7, I think, or maybe 8 or 9; never can get it straight) taught us some tunes for some of the songs. Still remember those to this day. Living in ex-colonies, much of the reading matter to which we had access was published in England. As I look back at those titles, I realise how many of them are English. Do remember one seasonal novel; by then we'd moved to Toronto and there were definite seasons. Always got books for Xmas & birthday, which come within days of each other. My dad gave me Frank Herbert's _Dune_ one year. I don't think I surfaced until after new year's. Carried it with me everywhere. The sheer scope of it enthralled me. -nalo On Thu, 15 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Wed, 14 May 1997 16:21:52 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: > > Ouch. I can't imagine what it would have been like to be stuck in a > car > > for hours without being able to read > > > I have two vivid memories re reading on holiday. One is of reading > my way around Ireland as my mother complained bitterly about all > the lovely scenery I was missing, and the second when my father > took me on holiday (the one and only time) and afterwards said that > in future he would leave me in a library for a week with a sleeping > bag and a camper stove. > > Sounded good then, sounds good now. > > Farah > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:31:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: The pause that refreshes / Sherri Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Reading during the summer? I have lovely memories of reading >ALL the time. > >Am I the only one who keeps a box of crud novels in the cupboard for >times like these? The literary equivalent of a box of chocolates... > >Farah Chocolates? One of my moret active stashes is right next to the toilet paper. ;-) > For some "reality," >I like Sherri S. Tepper for her ability to kick you simultaneously in the >heart and the head (I read _Beauty_ in one sitting, crying the whole >time). > >Karen I didn't much care for _Beauty_, and Ms. Tepper's powers of characterization seemed limited in the novels I've read. But I thought _Grass_ was superb in its vividly rendered landscapes of the alien world -- deceptively prosaic and terrifyingly unknowable. Like the Nature of our own world, which is taken so much for granted. And the first pages of _Grass_ are one of the most astonishing opening scenes I've ever read. I won't say any more. Just try it. (And don't spoil it by reading reviews ahead of time, or peeking ahead in the book. Go into it cold.) _Grass_ did rudely drop me at the end, unsatisfied -- but I take it there's a sequel? There must be. -- Susan Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:42:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Sherri Tepper, Grass, &c. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I didn't much care for _Beauty_ :-) Seems to be one that folks really like or really hate... I haven't heard anyone with a so-so reaction to it. > _Grass_ did rudely drop me at the end, unsatisfied -- but I take it there's > a sequel? There must be. I did like _Grass_ a lot. There are two more of her books in the same universe: _Raising the Stones_ and _Sideshow_. I just read the former for the first time and the latter for a second time. They're both fascinating books, but they're not closely tied. Marjorie Westriding and her companion appear in both, but she's a much more active presence in _Sideshow_--although her influence permeates _Raising the Stones_. -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:07:47 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Fallen off the list RE: Summer Reading??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 May 1997 14:14:40 -0400 Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > yesterday I attended my independent study for my Octavia Butler > research project and I asked a very general question about the whole spectrum > of literary criticism and discovered from my mentoring prof that there was a > time when critical theory was such that the works that the theories were to > be applied to became secondary if not unneeded in order to apply a theory of > criticism??? That the critical field became a genre in itself to a degree by > which you studied theory simple pure theory and found little need for the > texts aka the novels, the writer's creations et. al...? I was toying with > the idea of including a thorough critical backround with my doctoral work, as > in choosing critical theory for one of my interests, but silly me, in facetious fun :)> wanted to actually apply approaches to particular works > of fiction, which I thought was the basic idea of analysis in literature...so > I throw the question out there, why have theory if you are not applying it to > works, I thought this was the basic idea of analysing literature in general?? > > > silly me, asking rhetorical questions....heh heh > > Jo Ann :) This is what has been happening to cultural studies in the past ten years. When I first started you saw cultural studies posts advertised in many different departments, then they all moved into literature, and then into specialised cultural studies departments with emphasis mainly on theory. Only recently have I started to see the field widen to include historians and sociologists again. However, the world will always, I suspect, be divided between theorists and those who want to use the theory. farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:13:44 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: summer reading Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 May 1997 17:11:43 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: I'm in the lucky position of having come from a bookish family. Dad > was a writer, Mum's a library cataloguer. Don't remember holiday reading > separately from other reading, partly because I spent my childhood in the > Caribbean, where seasons aren't as clearly defined. Did my share of > reading under the covers with a flashlight as a child, but no-one batted > an eye at a kid who could get so lost in a book that she'd block out the > whole world. My dad did the same all the time. I managed to be a > tomboy, too; perfected the art of swinging up into the branches of > whatever tree was my current favourite with a book clenched between my > teeth. Kid's books I remember fondly are: > > _A Traveller in Time_ Alison Uttley > _Underground Alley_ (forget the author) > _Green Knowe Series_ (agh! author's name on my tonguetip, but I can't > spit it out) > -Gulliver's Travels_ (what did I know from social commentary?) > _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ C.S. Lewis (this one was a class > text that I read in a matter of days before school even began. Got to > read the part of Aslan the Lion when he created the world (what did I > know from Christian allegory?). Still remember whole chunks of that text.) > _Alice in Wonderland_ and _Through the Looking Glass_ my 1st form > English teacher (that would be Grade 7, I think, or maybe 8 or 9; never > can get it straight) taught us some tunes for some of the songs. Still > remember those to this day. > > Living in ex-colonies, much of the reading matter to which we had access > was published in England. As I look back at those titles, I realise how > many of them are English. > > Do remember one seasonal novel; by then we'd moved to Toronto and there > were definite seasons. Always got books for Xmas & birthday, which come > within days of each other. My dad gave me Frank Herbert's _Dune_ one > year. I don't think I surfaced until after new year's. Carried it with > me everywhere. The sheer scope of it enthralled me. > > -nalo > I too came from a bookish family, I just took the definition to new extremes. Re your ex-pat past... I have been fascinated to discover how different the US children's canon is to that of Britain and the British Empire (where children seem to have received British books as Sunday school prizes). One of the few meeting points seems to have been in fantasy. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:51:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: summer reading Comments: To: farah mendlesohn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Re British vs. North American children's lit: I'd never thought of it that way before. I believe you're correct; one of the few places where the canons overlap is in kid's fantasy. I also devoured any number of English boarding school My-Friend-Flicka type novels about horsey girls having secret midnight sardine sandwich picnics, but I find that when I refer to that type of writing, North American people just stare at me blankly. 'Course, it all read like fantasy to me. _My Friend Flicka_ had as much to do with my reality as _The Catcher in the Rye_ or the Tom Swift stuff. They were all unreal worlds. -nalo On Fri, 16 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > > On Thu, 15 May 1997 17:11:43 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > NH: I'm in the lucky position of having come from a bookish family. > Dad > > was a writer, Mum's a library cataloguer. Don't remember holiday > reading > > separately from other reading, partly because I spent my childhood > in the > > Caribbean, where seasons aren't as clearly defined. Did my share > of > > reading under the covers with a flashlight as a child, but no-one > batted > > an eye at a kid who could get so lost in a book that she'd block out > the > > whole world. My dad did the same all the time. I managed to be a > > tomboy, too; perfected the art of swinging up into the branches of > > whatever tree was my current favourite with a book clenched > between my > > teeth. Kid's books I remember fondly are: > > > > _A Traveller in Time_ Alison Uttley > > _Underground Alley_ (forget the author) > > _Green Knowe Series_ (agh! author's name on my tonguetip, but I > can't > > spit it out) > > -Gulliver's Travels_ (what did I know from social commentary?) > > _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ C.S. Lewis (this one was > a class > > text that I read in a matter of days before school even began. Got > to > > read the part of Aslan the Lion when he created the world (what did I > > know from Christian allegory?). Still remember whole chunks of > that text.) > > _Alice in Wonderland_ and _Through the Looking Glass_ my 1st > form > > English teacher (that would be Grade 7, I think, or maybe 8 or 9; > never > > can get it straight) taught us some tunes for some of the songs. > Still > > remember those to this day. > > > > Living in ex-colonies, much of the reading matter to which we had > access > > was published in England. As I look back at those titles, I realise > how > > many of them are English. > > > > Do remember one seasonal novel; by then we'd moved to Toronto > and there > > were definite seasons. Always got books for Xmas & birthday, > which come > > within days of each other. My dad gave me Frank Herbert's > _Dune_ one > > year. I don't think I surfaced until after new year's. Carried it with > > me everywhere. The sheer scope of it enthralled me. > > > > -nalo > > > > I too came from a bookish family, I just took the definition to new > extremes. Re your ex-pat past... I have been fascinated to discover > how different the US children's canon is to that of Britain and the > British Empire (where children seem to have received British books > as Sunday school prizes). One of the few meeting points seems to > have been in fantasy. > > Farah > > > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:01:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: midnight feasts Nalo, I know what you mean about those English schoolgirl books. I devoured Angela Brazil books (and the rest of that genre)...but not until I was an adult. Fabulous lesbian subtext. Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:11:37 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: summer reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some of the recent postings concerning sf/fantasy we read as children got me thinking: does anybody know of or own a list of good children's sf/fantasy? Specifically, a girl-friendly one? My mother is head librarian for a small rural library, and she has been bugging me for an anwer to this one (based upon what she saw me reading as a child, no doubt :) ) Thanks all. You can just respond to me, if you like, at: bgray@ece.ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:14:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: LHOD questions: Unabridged reading? Screenplay? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (Agreed that it's arguable whether LHOD is "feminist SF" -- but hey, I'm just sneakin' these questions in here because I figure you folks may know the answers...) Some years ago, Warner Audio released a 2-cassette set of a drastically abridged reading (by the author) of _The Left Hand of Darkness_. Does anyone know if an *unabridged* recording has ever been made? (Incidentally the Warner reading, done around 1985?, differs in some details from the original text. As I recall, the changes emphasize the characters' female aspect.) Ms. Le Guin has also mentioned a "1985 screenplay" of LHOD -- has this ever been published in any form? What the hell, one more question -- Has any dramatization of LHOD ever actually been produced? -- Susan Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:29:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elaine Kleiner Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: Fallen off the list RE: Summer Reading??? Something terrible happened to the field of literary studies in the early '80s. It was called the "death of the author." Check out the work of Jane Tompkins and you'll see what happened. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:41:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: <199705161711.KAA03309@salmon.ece.ucdavis.edu> from "Bonnie Gray" at May 16, 97 10:11:37 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Some of the recent postings concerning sf/fantasy we read as > children got me thinking: does anybody know of or own a list of > good children's sf/fantasy? Specifically, a girl-friendly one? > My mother is head librarian for a small rural library, and she > has been bugging me for an anwer to this one (based upon what she > saw me reading as a child, no doubt :) ) > > Thanks all. You can just respond to me, if you like, at: > bgray@ece.ucdavis.edu > Well, I dont know about girl friendly, but here is the stuff that I read as a child fantasy wise: The Chronicles of Narnia - kinda goes without saying. The Lloyd Alexander books. Susan Coopers's The Dark is Rising Series - loved this one so much that I can even remember the poem that went along with it - When the dark comes rising Six shall turn it back Three from the Circle Three from the Track Wood Bronze Iron Water Fire Stone Five Shall Return And one Go alone Iron for the Birthday Bronze Carried Long Wood from the burning Stone out of song Fire from the Candle Ring Water From the Thaw Six signs the circle and the Grail gone before. Now my memory is getting a little fuzzy, but has anybody else read this series by Susan Cooper - I believe that at least one of the books was a Newberry Medalist. Anything by Madeline L'Engle. A wonderful book called A String in the Harp set in Wales where a young boy finds a harp tuning key that allows him to travel in time and relive the life of the bard Taliesin whom some say is Merlin and whom some credit with large parts of the Mabinogian. (Incidentally, the Lloyd Alexander books are based on the Mabinogian as well.) Anything by Joan Aiken though these are more Dickensian take offs as opposed to strict fantasy. Anybody remember Dido? Joan Aiken also wrote great gothics for grown ups which have always been a guilty pleasure of mine. Unfortunately, I can no longer find them in the states. That does it for me for the moment. Tasia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Beth Middleton Subject: kids sci fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "A Wrinkle in Time", Madeleine L'Engle is the greatest, but they must already have this one. (They even had it in the small rural library where I grew up). Beth At 10:11 AM 5/16/97 -0700, you wrote: > Some of the recent postings concerning sf/fantasy we read as >children got me thinking: does anybody know of or own a list of >good children's sf/fantasy? Specifically, a girl-friendly one? >My mother is head librarian for a small rural library, and she >has been bugging me for an anwer to this one (based upon what she >saw me reading as a child, no doubt :) ) > >Thanks all. You can just respond to me, if you like, at: >bgray@ece.ucdavis.edu > > Dr. Beth Middleton Department of Plant Biology, 411 Life Science II Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, Illinois 62901 618-453-3216 FAX: 618-453-3441 Sabbatical Phone and FAX: 618-457-6760 bmiddleton@plant.siu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:15:59 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Bones of Time I guess the "hard science" debate wore everyone out -- I'm reading Carl Sagan's _The Demon Haunted World:Science as a Candle in the Darkness_ right now. I really like it. Now, for the question: has anyone else on the list read _Bones of TIme_ by Kathleen Goonan? I read it with great expectations because it is set in a future Hawaii, and I don't read much SF about this place where I live. I'm still trying to figure out whether I liked it or not. I would love to hear from anyone else who read, either on- or off-line. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:21:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Kendrick Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: <199705161741.NAA30980@mail.med.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have really enjoyed this thread. I too read voraciously as a child. It use to take me over an hour to walk a couple miles home from school, as I would walk while reading. My parents realized I needed glasses when they saw me covering one eye to read at the dinner table. My favorites as a little kid: the first book I remember being captivated by (and I still have it, I "borrowed" it from the library, hid it and told my mother I lost it!) is a book called "Unwilling Pirate" about a little boy who gets kidnapped by pirates. I also loved d'engles (sp?) A Wrinkle in Time. Great kid sci-fi, if I remember. I really liked was it Victoria Holt's King Author series? The one about Merlin? And I read all those horse books, Black Beauty...the whole series. Michelle _______________________________________________________________ Michelle R. Kendrick Assistant Professor of English Washington State University 14204 NE Salmon Creek Avenue Vancouver, Washington 98686 (360)546-9645 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:59:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: reproduction and childrearing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i've also been enjoying the discussion of childhood favorites--i miss the intensity with which i used to completely lose myself in books. among my favorites were a bunch of fantasies by edgar (or maybe edward) eager--Half-Magic and Knight's Castle are the titles i remember. on an unrelated note--i've narrowed the topic of my thesis to reproduction and childreaing in feminist science fiction. in The Dialectic of Sex (which had a strong influence on feminist sf writers in the seventies) Shulamith Firestone argued that peace and equality between the sexes were impossible as long as one sex was solely responsible for childbearing. I realized that Herland, Venus Plus X, The Left Hand of Darkness, Motherlines, Woman on the Edge of Time, and Russ's Whileaway all do away with the system in which one sex bears children and one doesn't--they describe societies in which there is one sex or there are two but babies bloom in bottles. It seems a bit discouraging to me because I'd like to think that we could reach equality and peace without radically altering the nature of reproduction (cause I don't see that happening anytime soon). what do you all think about the link between reproduction and women's oppression? are there other books that you think would be particularly helpful? thanks, mala ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: midnight feasts In-Reply-To: <970516130144_-1466329898@emout12.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: :) Yes, it would probably be a scream to re-read them now, with an adult's eyes... -nalo On Fri, 16 May 1997, Nicola Griffith wrote: > Nalo, I know what you mean about those English schoolgirl books. I devoured > Angela Brazil books (and the rest of that genre)...but not until I was an > adult. Fabulous lesbian subtext. > > Nicola > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:23:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Fallen off the list RE: Summer Reading??? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elaine Kleiner wrote: >Something terrible happened to the field of literary studies in the >early '80s. It was called the "death of the author." Check out the >work of Jane Tompkins and you'll see what happened. What's remarkable about the critic business going gaga over a theory which explains that the critic is at the top, mere readers in the middle, and authors at the bottom if at all? Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:26:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Bones of Time In-Reply-To: <11459238@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Now, for the question: has anyone else on the list read _Bones of TIme_ by >Kathleen Goonan? I read it with great expectations because it is set in a >future Hawaii, and I don't read much SF about this place where I live. I'm >still trying to figure out whether I liked it or not. I would love to hear >from anyone else who read, either on- or off-line. Thanks. Just finished it a couple of days ago, as it happens. I believe it's her second novel. I'm not going to be pressing the book on anyone, but I've marked her as an author to watch. Don't want to spoil anything, but I was favorably impressed by the way she handled the ending(s). (The action alternates between two times about a generation apart.) Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:31:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >NH: Re British vs. North American children's lit: I'd never thought of >it that way before. I believe you're correct; one of the few places >where the canons overlap is in kid's fantasy. I once got into an argument with an Australian friend who was shocked that a well-read, cultured person like myself had only read a couple of Somerset Maugham's novels and wasn't familiar with his short stories. I pressed her to list dome essential authors. When the list reached a dozen I was able to point out that she'd named one Frenchman, One Russian, and ten Englishmen. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:36:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: <199705161711.KAA03309@salmon.ece.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bonnie Gray wrote: > Some of the recent postings concerning sf/fantasy we read as >children got me thinking: does anybody know of or own a list of >good children's sf/fantasy? Specifically, a girl-friendly one? Don't underestimate the Heinlein juveniles. Not too long ago, I ran into a copy of _Citizen of the Galaxy_, remembered how I'd been struck by it when I read it once, decades ago, and picked it up. While the protagonist is male, there are clear, easily swallowed lessons about intellectual, emotional and moral maturing, and pointed observations about the silliness of sexism and ethnocentrism. (I'm not sure the word "sexism" had been coined when the book was written, but for one interval, the boy lives in a matriarchal culture, and later is in one where the men running things can't imagine women being competent to do Real, Important things -- clearly making those men look foolish. And one of the twists in the final resolution has the hero being saved by the disciplined efforts of the sheltered rich girl he ends up pairing with. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:23:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516173112.0068a3f4@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Yeah, like that. -nalo On Fri, 16 May 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > >NH: Re British vs. North American children's lit: I'd never thought of > >it that way before. I believe you're correct; one of the few places > >where the canons overlap is in kid's fantasy. > > I once got into an argument with an Australian friend who was shocked that > a well-read, cultured person like myself had only read a couple of Somerset > Maugham's novels and wasn't familiar with his short stories. I pressed her > to list dome essential authors. When the list reached a dozen I was able > to point out that she'd named one Frenchman, One Russian, and ten Englishmen. > > > Neil Rest > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:17:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Summer reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well-- if school is over, it must be summer =) Read Sharon Shinn's _Jehovah's Angel_ (sequel to _Archangel_) yesterday, with delight. Not inordinately deep, but much fun. Am 1/2-way through Sheri Tepper's _The Family Tree_ -- gorgeous book, delightful humor, and very interesting narrative strategies. Next in line: Molly Gloss, _The Dazzle of Day_, and Shariann Lewitt's _Interface Masque_... *bounce* Now, if only it were a bit warmer, I could actually curl up in a tree... Heather (decompressing) =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:41:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: summer reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Neil; I devoured all of Heinlein's books as a kid and, while I agree with your points that his juvenile books aren't particularly sexist, I certainly wouldn't call them revolutionary for girls by today's standards. By the standards of the time, the female roles were VERY progressive. Of course, we're talking the 50's, maybe the 60's, here... Plus, as you mention, almost all of the protagonists were boys. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with this (there have been lots of feminist sf stories with men as main characters), but in Heinlein's juvenile books even the most capable females are still in the "help the hero" role -- the hero being a boy. All I know is that I read and re-read Podkayne of Mars as a pre-adolescent, not because it was the best of Heinlein's jv novels, but because the main character was a GIRL! I was also mesmerized by the fact that her mom, a scientist, didn't have to carry the babies to term. That was the first time I ever read anything discussing child-bearing as a non-absolute, but I digress... Still, Neil, thanks for your comments. I think the library has all of Heinlein's jv novels already. Neil wrote: Don't underestimate the Heinlein juveniles. Not too long ago, I ran into a copy of _Citizen of the Galaxy_, remembered how I'd been struck by it when I read it once, decades ago, and picked it up. While the protagonist is male, there are clear, easily swallowed lessons about intellectual, emotional and moral maturing, and pointed observations about the silliness of sexism and ethnocentrism. (I'm not sure the word "sexism" had been coined when the book was written, but for one interval, the boy lives in a matriarchal culture, and later is in one where the men running things can't imagine women being competent to do Real, Important things -- clearly making those men look foolish. And one of the twists in the final resolution has the hero being saved by the disciplined efforts of the sheltered rich girl he ends up pairing with. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:39:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Summer reading In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970516193441.3d375bf2@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 May 1997, Heather MacLean wrote: > Well-- if school is over, it must be summer =) > > Read Sharon Shinn's _Jehovah's Angel_ (sequel to _Archangel_) yesterday, > with delight. Not inordinately deep, but much fun. Am 1/2-way through > Sheri Tepper's _The Family Tree_ -- gorgeous book, delightful humor, and > very interesting narrative strategies. Next in line: Molly Gloss, _The > Dazzle of Day_, and Shariann Lewitt's _Interface Masque_... *bounce* Now, > if only it were a bit warmer, I could actually curl up in a tree... > > Heather > (decompressing) > =) > > > hmaclean@kent.edu > http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ > What! a new Tepper that I've missed! when did that come out? Sometimes I think I enjoy Tepper for the wrong reasons ( I admit it, I love it when she rants, even when I know she's being unfair and/or slanted I think she makes some valid points) but both my sister and I grab every book by her we can find. My first was Gate to Women's Country which was good but didn't really grab me. Then a fellow librarian recommended Grass and I was hooked. Now I'm trying to collect her earlier fantasies. Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:31:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Summer reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:39 PM 5/16/97 -0700, Denise Borgen wrote: >What! a new Tepper that I've missed! when did that come out? *grins* Why, just this month, apparently. *sigh* allgonebook. Finishing a book is like an abrupt parting of intimate friends -- I feel so bereft. >Sometimes I think I enjoy Tepper for the wrong reasons ( I admit it, >I love it when she rants, even when I know she's being unfair and/or >slanted I think she makes some valid points) but both my sister and I grab >every book by her we can find. *smiles* Well, she was a little obvious towards the end. But it was still a great book. Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:49:16 -0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elena Zhigalina Organization: MedCom Subject: Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everybody, I've subscribed to your list lately but I don't think it's the list I need. I'm a Russian teacher of English who is much interested in fairy tales. I've been translating them to/from English/Russian and I'm going to do a research on modern British fairy tale writers. Would be much obliged for any tips, advice, any info. about these authors, or hints where I might find this info.Some of you might know their contact addresses, which will be needed to discuss the points about translating their texts. Thank you for any help. Elena Zhigalina. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Mueller Subject: Re: Help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I'm going to do a >research on modern British fairy tale writers. Would be much obliged for >any tips, advice, any info. about these authors, or hints where I might find >Elena Zhigalina. > Hi, Elena, I don't exactly have what you request, but I do have two suggestions that might be peripherally helpful. One is a book entitled _The Uses of Enchantment_ by Bruno Bettelheim. He discusses the value of traditional fairy tales in a modern context. The other is a book by Jane Yolen. I believe it was entitled _Briar Rose_ and was an update of the Sleeping Beauty tale. Although she is primarily a children's writer, this book was written for an adult audience. It was also one of a series of books by various authors all of which were recasting traditional fairy tales into modern settings. hope this is useful. Sincerely, Susan Susan Mueller English Department University of Missouri - St. Louis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "In a world full of fugitives, the person taking the opposite direction will appear to be running away." --T. S. Eliot ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:17:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: summer reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Now my memory is getting a little fuzzy, but has anybody else read this >series by Susan Cooper - I believe that at least one of the books was a >Newberry Medalist. > >Tasia I did as an adult with the same fervour I would have read it when I was younger. Actually I even read it a number of times. She's a fantastic author. Does anyone know whether she has published more in the same vein? To your list let me add author Meredith Ann Peirce, always with strong girl heroines. Of the older one's anything by Nesbit. By Heinlein I would recommend _Have Spacesuit Will Travel_, aside from those mentioned. I know I liked it, esp the fairly uppity Peewee character. Having some good English children's fantasy at home I will go look see in my bookshelves and see what more I may add to the list. Bi Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:34:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII So, did you like Elinor M. Brent-Dyer? Farah On Fri, 16 May 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: Re British vs. North American children's lit: I'd never thought of > it that way before. I believe you're correct; one of the few places > where the canons overlap is in kid's fantasy. I also devoured any number > of English boarding school My-Friend-Flicka type novels about horsey > girls having secret midnight sardine sandwich picnics, but I find that > when I refer to that type of writing, North American people just stare at > me blankly. 'Course, it all read like fantasy to me. _My Friend Flicka_ > had as much to do with my reality as _The Catcher in the Rye_ or the Tom > Swift stuff. They were all unreal worlds. > > -nalo > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 15 May 1997 17:11:43 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > > > NH: I'm in the lucky position of having come from a bookish family. > > Dad > > > was a writer, Mum's a library cataloguer. Don't remember holiday > > reading > > > separately from other reading, partly because I spent my childhood > > in the > > > Caribbean, where seasons aren't as clearly defined. Did my share > > of > > > reading under the covers with a flashlight as a child, but no-one > > batted > > > an eye at a kid who could get so lost in a book that she'd block out > > the > > > whole world. My dad did the same all the time. I managed to be a > > > tomboy, too; perfected the art of swinging up into the branches of > > > whatever tree was my current favourite with a book clenched > > between my > > > teeth. Kid's books I remember fondly are: > > > > > > _A Traveller in Time_ Alison Uttley > > > _Underground Alley_ (forget the author) > > > _Green Knowe Series_ (agh! author's name on my tonguetip, but I > > can't > > > spit it out) > > > -Gulliver's Travels_ (what did I know from social commentary?) > > > _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ C.S. Lewis (this one was > > a class > > > text that I read in a matter of days before school even began. Got > > to > > > read the part of Aslan the Lion when he created the world (what did I > > > know from Christian allegory?). Still remember whole chunks of > > that text.) > > > _Alice in Wonderland_ and _Through the Looking Glass_ my 1st > > form > > > English teacher (that would be Grade 7, I think, or maybe 8 or 9; > > never > > > can get it straight) taught us some tunes for some of the songs. > > Still > > > remember those to this day. > > > > > > Living in ex-colonies, much of the reading matter to which we had > > access > > > was published in England. As I look back at those titles, I realise > > how > > > many of them are English. > > > > > > Do remember one seasonal novel; by then we'd moved to Toronto > > and there > > > were definite seasons. Always got books for Xmas & birthday, > > which come > > > within days of each other. My dad gave me Frank Herbert's > > _Dune_ one > > > year. I don't think I surfaced until after new year's. Carried it with > > > me everywhere. The sheer scope of it enthralled me. > > > > > > -nalo > > > > > > > I too came from a bookish family, I just took the definition to new > > extremes. Re your ex-pat past... I have been fascinated to discover > > how different the US children's canon is to that of Britain and the > > British Empire (where children seem to have received British books > > as Sunday school prizes). One of the few meeting points seems to > > have been in fantasy. > > > > Farah > > > > > > > > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere > the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. > "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all > aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:43:05 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: midnight feasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 May 1997 13:01:54 -0400 Nicola Griffith wrote: > Nalo, I know what you mean about those English schoolgirl books. I devoured > Angela Brazil books (and the rest of that genre)...but not until I was an > adult. Fabulous lesbian subtext. > > Nicola There is a wonderful book by Rosemary Auchmuchtie the title of which I unfortunately forget looking at the appeal of girls' school stories to feminists. It was particularly interesting in that she highlighted their "colonial" appeal. I liked the books because they were the very few adventures that I did not have to share with boys. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:53:21 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: children's fantasy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 May 1997 13:41:37 -0400 Anastasia McPherson wrote: > > > > > Some of the recent postings concerning sf/fantasy we read as > > children got me thinking: does anybody know of or own a list of > > good children's sf/fantasy? Specifically, a girl-friendly one? > > My mother is head librarian for a small rural library, and she > > has been bugging me for an anwer to this one (based upon what she > > saw me reading as a child, no doubt :) ) > > > > Thanks all. You can just respond to me, if you like, at: > > bgray@ece.ucdavis.edu > > > > > > Well, I dont know about girl friendly, but here is the stuff that > I read as a child fantasy wise: > > The Chronicles of Narnia - kinda goes without saying. > > The Lloyd Alexander books. > > Susan Coopers's The Dark is Rising Series - loved this one so much that I > can even remember the poem that went along with it - > > When the dark comes rising > Six shall turn it back > Three from the Circle > Three from the Track > > Wood Bronze Iron > Water Fire Stone > Five Shall Return > And one Go alone > > Iron for the Birthday > Bronze Carried Long > Wood from the burning > Stone out of song > Fire from the Candle Ring > Water From the Thaw > Six signs the circle and the Grail gone before. > > Now my memory is getting a little fuzzy, but has anybody else read this > series by Susan Cooper - I believe that at least one of the books was a > Newberry Medalist. > > Anything by Madeline L'Engle. > > A wonderful book called A String in the Harp set in Wales where a young > boy finds a harp tuning key that allows him to travel in time and relive > the life of the bard Taliesin whom some say is Merlin and whom some > credit with large parts of the Mabinogian. (Incidentally, the Lloyd > Alexander books are based on the Mabinogian as well.) > > Anything by Joan Aiken though these are more Dickensian take offs as > opposed to strict fantasy. Anybody remember Dido? Joan Aiken also wrote > great gothics for grown ups which have always been a guilty pleasure of > mine. Unfortunately, I can no longer find them in the states. > > That does it for me for the moment. > > Tasia I agree with all the above, and incidentally, the BBC have just begun a dramatisation of the Susan Cooper series, starting with Over Sea, Under Stone. I would definitely recommend Lloyd Alexander and also Diana Wynne Jones, perhaps the best British fantasist for children (and for many adults). DWJ is particularly good for females. Tamora Pierce is bearable - a poor writer with good ideas; Andre Norton appeals to girls but tends to use mainly male characters (and as a girl I disliked her female characters); H.M. Hoover is also good; Monica Hughes is excellent; Sylvia Engdahl wrote fascinating juvenile sf; Isaac Asimov's Susan Calvin stories should be on any young girl's reading list as should some of Robert Heinlein's juveniles....I could keep going. One comment, female friendly does not mean good female characters. Eilonwy in Lloyd Alexander's series is lovely and challenging even tho' written many years ago. Phillip Pullman's Northern Lights (called something else in the US I think) dissapointed me because although every body kept saying the girl was amazing and important I couldn't see why. To finish, a plug. The next issue of Foundation: the International Review of Science Fiction is on children's sf and fantasy. if you are interested in buying the issue (or even subscribing) , contact Edward James at E.F.James@reading.ac.uk. Dollar cheques accepted. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:55:56 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: reproduction and childrearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Mala, I know of somebody who wrote their MA dissertation on a similar issue. Would you like me to pass on your e-mail address? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:58:38 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: midnight feasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Subtexts! What subtext!? In one of the later Chalet School Books, Nancy Wilmot (acting head-teacher) starts crying in front of the pupils when her closest friend and room-mate Kathy Ferrars falls ill...and I always had a crush on Tom. Farah On Fri, 16 May 1997 17:09:14 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > NH: :) Yes, it would probably be a scream to re-read them now, with an > adult's eyes... > > -nalo > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Nicola Griffith wrote: > > > Nalo, I know what you mean about those English schoolgirl books. I devoured > > Angela Brazil books (and the rest of that genre)...but not until I was an > > adult. Fabulous lesbian subtext. > > > > Nicola > > > > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere > the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. > "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all > aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:02:34 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: summer reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 May 1997 17:31:12 -0500 Neil Rest wrote: > Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > >NH: Re British vs. North American children's lit: I'd never thought of > >it that way before. I believe you're correct; one of the few places > >where the canons overlap is in kid's fantasy. > > I once got into an argument with an Australian friend who was shocked that > a well-read, cultured person like myself had only read a couple of Somerset > Maugham's novels and wasn't familiar with his short stories. I pressed her > to list dome essential authors. When the list reached a dozen I was able > to point out that she'd named one Frenchman, One Russian, and ten Englishmen. > > > Neil Rest Its a very good point. It seems to be only relatively recently that the English and American canons began to overlap (possibly as publishers merged). One interesting thing, I discovered only recently that when books were imported from the US to Britain they used to be rewritten to accord with our grammar. I owned a book called Zozo Goes to the Hospital for years, and it is a very treasured possession. Much to my delight, I discovered in Philadelphia last year that there is a series, otherwise known as Curious George. When I compared, I discovered that almost every sentence had been reworked. In addition, realizing what Curious George was about, adds a new element to the film Forrest Gump. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:06:20 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: summer reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 May 1997 17:36:28 -0500 Neil Rest wrote: > > Don't underestimate the Heinlein juveniles. Not too long ago, I ran into a > copy of _Citizen of the Galaxy_, remembered how I'd been struck by it when > I read it once, decades ago, and picked it up. > > While the protagonist is male, there are clear, easily swallowed lessons > about intellectual, emotional and moral maturing, and pointed observations > about the silliness of sexism and ethnocentrism. (I'm not sure the word > "sexism" had been coined when the book was written, but for one interval, > the boy lives in a matriarchal culture, and later is in one where the men > running things can't imagine women being competent to do Real, Important > things -- clearly making those men look foolish. And one of the twists in > the final resolution has the hero being saved by the disciplined efforts of > the sheltered rich girl he ends up pairing with. > > > Neil Rest A very good short story by Heinlein is The Menace From Earth about the pains of adolescence and the possibility that marriage and engineering are *not* incompatible. Also by Heinlein, Space Cadet. The protagonists land on Venus and have to cooperate with female Venusians. Only those who can survive. I am very against the idea that girls need female characters to identify with. In reality I suspect most girls prefer single sex novels because this allows them to identify, quite simply, with whoever is having more adventure and is more active. The problem with novels which have male and female protagonists is that often the male part is still more interesting. Yes look for good female protagonists, but don't see this as a necessity. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:09:38 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: summer reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sat, 17 May 1997 11:17:31 +0100 Britt-Inger Johansson wrote: > > >Now my memory is getting a little fuzzy, but has anybody else read this > >series by Susan Cooper - I believe that at least one of the books was a > >Newberry Medalist. > > > > >Tasia > > I did as an adult with the same fervour I would have read it when I was > younger. Actually I even read it a number of times. She's a fantastic > author. Does anyone know whether she has published more in the same vein? To my knowledge, her other books are not fantasy. Other suggestion: Nicholas Fisk's A Rag, A Bone and A Hank of Hair. I can't say I like his others but this is wonderful. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:18:15 -0800 Reply-To: Emily@exo.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Emily Hackbarth Organization: very little Subject: Re: children's fantasy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Anything by Joan Aiken though these are more Dickensian take offs > as opposed to strict fantasy. Anybody remember Dido? This sounds like a book I have remembered vaguely since I was a kid but could never find again. Could somebody please give me a plot synopsis? Emily Hackbarth emily@exo.com The Beadworker--http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html My Miningco Beadwork Site--http://beadwork.miningco.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:14:50 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Children's Fantasy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My two favorite childhood books were Madelein L'Engle's _A Wrinkle in Time_, which has been previously mentioned, and Carol Kendall's _The Gammage Cup_. Both of these feature strong female leads. Meg Murray of _A Wrinkle in Time_ is the prototypical teenage misfit, a geek before it was cool. The child of a beautiful and brilliant mother, she herself is not seen as being either. (She is very intelligent but is unable to demonstrate it upon demand, due to her temper and lack of patience with teachers who do not understand the shortcuts taught to her by her mathematical genius father.) She goes on a quest to rescue her missing father, accompanied by her much younger brother and aided by supernatural entities. _The Gammage Cup_ features two strong female leads, the outwardly conforming and inwardly rebelling Muggles and Curley Green, the artistic rebel who doesn't care what the other villagers think of her. Their hobbit-like people are called the Minnipins. (Many have said that the story bears strong resemblance to _The Hobbit_, but as I have read TGC many times as a child and many years before I encountered _The Hobbit_, I don't see other than very superficial resemblances.) Muggles, Curley, and two male Minnipins are expelled from their village for their lack of conformity and wind up having an adventure that eventually and predictably saves the village. What I liked as a child about both the characters of Meg and Muggles was that they were as unsure of themselves and the world around them as I was. Neither is seen by her peers as being outstanding in any way, yet each manages to go beyond her own expectations and do the right and heroic thing, no matter how much they would really rather run away and hide. (And kvetch. One of the best scenes in AWiT is when Meg breaks down and throws a tantrum. Is this a normal teenager or what?) Finally delurking, Berni Phillips bernip@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Monica Gaudio Subject: Your SF/F Novel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The summer reading thread has gotten me thinking about all those great old books that I read, when I was a teenager, and just discovered Science Fiction. So, I pose two questions. What was the first SF/F novel you ever read, and what was the first "feminist" SF/F novel you ever read? Mine was "Dragonsinger" by Anne McCaffery. I would also say that it's feminist because it has a strong female protagonist that sets out on her own, to defy her family, and do what she believes is right for her. Monica ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: joan aiken Comments: To: Emily Hackbarth In-Reply-To: <199705181726.KAA04582@ns2.snni.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII there's a wonderful book by joan aiken called Black Hearts in Battersea (i think) about two children escaping from their horrible governess and her evil plots. was that the one you were thinking of, emily? she also has a collection of scary short stories for kids called A Touch of Chill or something like that that gave me nightmares for years. mala ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:06:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: children's fantasy I On Fri, 16 May 1997 13:41:37 -0400 Anastasia McPherson wrote: > Some of the recent postings concerning sf/fantasy we read as > children got me thinking: does anybody know of or own a list of > good children's sf/fantasy? Specifically, a girl-friendly one? The Los Angeles Science Fiction Forum/Group/Community (can't remember their name, exactly) put together a really impressive children's-YA skiffy reading list a while ago. When I try to remember an URL or email address my mind goes horribly blank, but I'm sure some kind of web search would turn it up. (Or maybe this post will jog the memory of someone who has this kind of info at their fingertips.) Good luck. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:09:00 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gabrielle Bate Subject: Re: LHOD questions: Unabridged reading? Screenplay? >What the hell, one more question -- Has any dramatization of LHOD ever >actually been produced? > >-- Susan > >Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com I saw a play of Left Hand of Darkness done at a theatre in Chicago a while ago. I think the theatre was called Lifeline. I thought it was a very good production. Gabby Bate bate@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:24:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Argh; a test! Is that the author of _My Friend Flicka?_ As a kid, I liked almost everything, was amazingly omnivorous, much more than I am capable of being now. I remember tackling Henry James's _The Turning of the Screw_ at way too young an age, being unable to understand most of the language or follow the narrative, and taking it to my dad and wailing plaintively, "But what *happened?*" -nalo On Sun, 18 May 1997, F Mendlesohn wrote: > So, did you like Elinor M. Brent-Dyer? > > Farah > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > NH: Re British vs. North American children's lit: I'd never thought of > > it that way before. I believe you're correct; one of the few places > > where the canons overlap is in kid's fantasy. I also devoured any number > > of English boarding school My-Friend-Flicka type novels about horsey > > girls having secret midnight sardine sandwich picnics, but I find that > > when I refer to that type of writing, North American people just stare at > > me blankly. 'Course, it all read like fantasy to me. _My Friend Flicka_ > > had as much to do with my reality as _The Catcher in the Rye_ or the Tom > > Swift stuff. They were all unreal worlds. > > > > -nalo > > > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 15 May 1997 17:11:43 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > > > > > NH: I'm in the lucky position of having come from a bookish family. > > > Dad > > > > was a writer, Mum's a library cataloguer. Don't remember holiday > > > reading > > > > separately from other reading, partly because I spent my childhood > > > in the > > > > Caribbean, where seasons aren't as clearly defined. Did my share > > > of > > > > reading under the covers with a flashlight as a child, but no-one > > > batted > > > > an eye at a kid who could get so lost in a book that she'd block out > > > the > > > > whole world. My dad did the same all the time. I managed to be a > > > > tomboy, too; perfected the art of swinging up into the branches of > > > > whatever tree was my current favourite with a book clenched > > > between my > > > > teeth. Kid's books I remember fondly are: > > > > > > > > _A Traveller in Time_ Alison Uttley > > > > _Underground Alley_ (forget the author) > > > > _Green Knowe Series_ (agh! author's name on my tonguetip, but I > > > can't > > > > spit it out) > > > > -Gulliver's Travels_ (what did I know from social commentary?) > > > > _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ C.S. Lewis (this one was > > > a class > > > > text that I read in a matter of days before school even began. Got > > > to > > > > read the part of Aslan the Lion when he created the world (what did I > > > > know from Christian allegory?). Still remember whole chunks of > > > that text.) > > > > _Alice in Wonderland_ and _Through the Looking Glass_ my 1st > > > form > > > > English teacher (that would be Grade 7, I think, or maybe 8 or 9; > > > never > > > > can get it straight) taught us some tunes for some of the songs. > > > Still > > > > remember those to this day. > > > > > > > > Living in ex-colonies, much of the reading matter to which we had > > > access > > > > was published in England. As I look back at those titles, I realise > > > how > > > > many of them are English. > > > > > > > > Do remember one seasonal novel; by then we'd moved to Toronto > > > and there > > > > were definite seasons. Always got books for Xmas & birthday, > > > which come > > > > within days of each other. My dad gave me Frank Herbert's > > > _Dune_ one > > > > year. I don't think I surfaced until after new year's. Carried it with > > > > me everywhere. The sheer scope of it enthralled me. > > > > > > > > -nalo > > > > > > > > > > I too came from a bookish family, I just took the definition to new > > > extremes. Re your ex-pat past... I have been fascinated to discover > > > how different the US children's canon is to that of Britain and the > > > British Empire (where children seem to have received British books > > > as Sunday school prizes). One of the few meeting points seems to > > > have been in fantasy. > > > > > > Farah > > > > > > > > > > > > > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere > > the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. > > "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all > > aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] > > > [So I tell my brother about being in the sf bookstores & everywhere the covers show bronze, blue and gold-skinned aliens and white humans. "What is that about," I ask him, "that the people of colour are all aliens?" And he says wryly, "Maybe they're phasing us in."] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:41:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: kids sci fi When I was a kid, I read this series called the Twilight Books series, young adult mystery/occult, several with strong female protagonists. Along those My-Friend-Flicka lines I loved Pippi Longstocking books... sort of a Swedish female Huck Finn. My son is three and a half, and I just bought him Where the Wild Things Are... "training fantasy," for the youngest ones! Hope Cascio ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:53:13 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: children's fantasy Comments: To: Emily@exo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII re: Joan Aiken and Dido Twite. This is part of a long and not always directly connected series set in a nineteenth century England (and sometimes America) where the Stuarts are still on the throne and there are periodic Hanoverian revolts. See St. James Press, Encyclopedia of Fantasy for a good listing of Aiken's work. Below is a rough outline of those which spring immediately to mind. The Wolves of Willoughby Chase : Sylvia goes to live with her cousin. Her cousin's parents die in a shipwreck and they are sent to an orphanage by their governess who has forged a will. They are eventually recognised by Simon, a goose boy with a talent for drawing. Black Hearts in Battersea : Simon goes to London to train as an artist, discovers a Haoverian plot and meets Dido Twite for the first time. no more summaries as it would spoil the plot of Black Hearts in Battersea (my personal favourite) Night Birds on Nantucket is the next and then I forget the whole list but they are all back in print in Britain, so might also be in the US. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:58:27 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Your SF/F Novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 May 1997 15:36:36 -0500 Monica Gaudio wrote: > So, I pose two questions. What was the first SF/F novel you ever read, and > what was the first "feminist" SF/F novel you ever read? > There is a story to this. I only read sf at all (although I had been reading myths for a while) because I wasstaying with my Dad and ran out of books (as usual) a friend of his gave me a suitcase full of books, all of which was sf. It was either read these or the back of the baked bean can. I can't remember which was the first I read,but I can remember very clearly the two which made the most impact. Brian Stableford's The Florians (the first in the Daedelus series) and Joe Haldeman's All My Sins Remembered. Between them they converted me wholeheartedly to sf and in the long term to pacifism. I continue to recommend them wholeheartedly, but The Florians is not in print any more. If anybody finds a good condition second hand copy, Brian would love it, so do let me know. Although neither of these is feminist, Brian's book has some very strong female characters, and no romance. The first *feminist* sf I read (taken in the broadest sense, was Heinlein's Friday. Deeply flawed but very liberating. Farah. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:01:01 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Children's Fantasy Comments: To: bernip@ix.netcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The worrying thing about the wrinkle in Time sequence is that even at the end Meg still has very little self-confidence, and her role as heroine is undermined by the fact that she defers to her even brighter younger brother (see my earlier comment about the unsatisfactoriness of co-ed novels). I still love the books tho'. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:31:53 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Sat, 17 May 1997, Britt-Inger Johansson wrote: > >Now my memory is getting a little fuzzy, but has anybody else read this > >series by Susan Cooper - I believe that at least one of the books was a > >Newberry Medalist. > > > > >Tasia This will probably only be of interest to those in Britain, or with good radio receivers, but the UK's Radio 4 is doing an adaptation of Susan Cooper's "Over Sea, Under Stone", the first of the Dark is Rising sequence. There have been two episodes so far, and (although I haven't listened all the way through yet) it seems to be quite well done. One hopes they will get on to do the _better_ ones in the sequence. The Radio 4 children's department have done a couple of Narnia adaptations recently, too: _The Horse and His Boy_ was particularly good. Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:42:48 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: joan aiken In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Sun, 18 May 1997, Mala Ghoshal (NC) wrote: > there's a wonderful book by joan aiken called Black Hearts in Battersea (i > think) about two children escaping from their horrible governess and her > evil plots. was that the one you were thinking of, emily? she also has a > collection of scary short stories for kids called A Touch of Chill or > something like that that gave me nightmares for years. > mala > There's a wonderful SERIES of books by Joan Aiken (as well as some wonderful collections of short stories like A SMALL PINCH OF WEATHER). "Black Hearts in Battersea" was the sequel to "The Wolves of Willoughby Chase", and set off a whole series, mostly featuring the young heroine Dido Twite: "Night Birds in Nantucket" was one of the best. They are all set in the early nineteenth century in an alternative history in which England is ruled by Jacobites rather than Hanoverians (and, hence, no American War of Independence). Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:47:38 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: children's fantasy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Mon, 19 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > re: Joan Aiken and Dido Twite. > > > This is part of a long and not always directly connected series set in > a nineteenth century England (and sometimes America) where the > Stuarts are still on the throne and there are periodic Hanoverian > revolts. See St. James Press, Encyclopedia of Fantasy for a good > listing of Aiken's work. Below is a rough outline of those which spring > immediately to mind. That's the St James Guide to Fantasy, ed. David Pringle. And, yes, there is a good guide to Aiken's fantasies there. (I wrote it...) Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:03:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Williams Subject: Re: kids fantasy.sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" more kids sf/fantasy: the lloyd alexander novels about taran and eilonwy et al that I enjoyed alot as a child. ;the high king, taran wanderer, theblack cauldron, etc. behind on this thread cause I ben rereading them all this week... kw ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:15:07 -0700 Reply-To: essency@warp6.cs.misu.nodak.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janet E. Essency" Organization: Gordon B. Olson Library Minot State University 500 University Ave.West Minot, ND 58707-0001 Subject: reproduction and childrearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mala, I thought Ethan of Athos by Bujold had some interesting points about children & reproduction. Male-only society which reproduces without women at all. Males do all the childrearing which is actually considered a value to society. What a concept. Hope this helps. Janet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:32:13 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: midnight feasts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Sun, 18 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > There is a wonderful book by Rosemary Auchmuchtie the title of > which I unfortunately forget looking at the appeal of girls' school > stories to feminists. It was particularly interesting in that she > highlighted their "colonial" appeal. > > I liked the books because they were the very few adventures that I > did not have to share with boys. > Farah > This is our library's catalogue entry for the book Farah refers to: I can confrim that it is an excellent book. It hasn't quite made me into an Elinor Brent-Dyer fan, but at least I now see the appeal! It is interesting (but predicatable?!) that while there have been half a dozen good studies of boys' school books that I know of, this seems to be the only serious study of girls' school books. Auchmuty, Rosemary TITLE: The world of girls / Rosemary Auchmuty. FORMAT: IMPRINT: London, Women's Press, 1992 SIZE: x, 244 p NOTES: Cover title : A world of girls. SUBJECT1: Oxenham, Elsie Jeanette--Criticism and interpretation SUBJECT2: Bruce, Dorita Fairlie--Criticism and interpretation SUBJECT3: Brent-Dyer, Elinor M.--Criticism and interpretation SUBJECT4: Blyton, Enid--Criticism and interpretation SUBJECT5: Women in literature SUBJECT6: Boarding schools in literature Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:11:40 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: summer reading In-Reply-To: <199705161741.NAA30980@mail.med.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Two books I remember fondly from childhood sf that weren't mentioned (sorry, BI forgot the authors): Z is for Zacharia (a near-future post-apocalyptic (nuclear) story about a girl in an isolated valley) So, You Want to Be a Wizard? (a book-loving girl on long island finds a strange book in the children's section of the library and ends up defeating chaos and evil (and saving the world) with some new friends) Both feature female protagonists (though the wizard one seems a bit hetero-seixist in hindsight) It is difficult to critique books that I read in elementary school (much less remember details about them). But it is fun to explore those memories. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:17:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Liz Henry Subject: great kids fantasy/sf There is a heck of a lot of better stuff than Lloyd Alexander. SF: Monica Hughes - An Invitation to the Game ***** Diana Wynne Jones -- Time City H.M. Hoover - Children of Morrow, The Delikon, Another Heaven, Another Earth ***** Nancy Farmer - The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm Margaret Mahy - lots Peter Dickinson - Eva, the Changes Trilogy, Bone from a Dry Sea ***** Pamela Sargent - Earthseed series, Alien Child Fantasy: Diana Wynne Jones - Howl's Moving Castle is especially cool. Lots of witch books. Patricia C. Wrede - Dealing with Dragons, and more in "Dragons" series Suzy McKee Charnas - The Bronze King, The Silver Glove, The Golden Thread Andre Norton - tons of stuff, just browse for the ones with female characters... Liz Henry ehenry@vertex.ucls.uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:25:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Summer reading In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 May 1997, Denise Borgen wrote: [snip] > What! a new Tepper that I've missed! when did that come out? > Sometimes I think I enjoy Tepper for the wrong reasons ( I admit it, > I love it when she rants, even when I know she's being unfair and/or > slanted I think she makes some valid points) but both my sister and I grab > every book by her we can find. > My first was Gate to Women's Country which was good but didn't really grab > me. Then a fellow librarian recommended Grass and I was hooked. Now I'm > trying to collect her earlier fantasies. I know what you mean. In many ways I can't help loving it when she trashes religion. It really feels nice to know that someone out there is a lot more angry and willing to be nasty about it than I am. Although I THINK that she is going too far, parts of me FEEL like she hasn't gone far enough. I especially can't help myself when she makes it funny. Like that whole thing in _Raising the Stones_ when she talks about how the religion took the commandment "Thou shall not be sexist pigs" to mean that pigs were bad and tainted so they shouldn't eat pork. (or something like that). I think it's the same part of me that like Dilbert cartoons (especially those with Dogbert trashing someone). Does anyone else notice that in some ways, Dilbert is a bit feminist? His female co-worker is very competent and amazingly strong, and his love interest was an athlete. Just a thought O- -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: LHOD questions: Unabridged reading? Screenplay? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:09 PM 5/18/97 CST, you wrote: >>What the hell, one more question -- Has any dramatization of LHOD ever >>actually been produced? >> >>-- Susan >> >>Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com > >I saw a play of Left Hand of Darkness done at a theatre in Chicago a while >ago. I think the theatre was called Lifeline. I thought it was a very good >production. > Gabby Bate > bate@macc.wisc.edu Yes, I saw this at the LifeLine too (and liked it a lot) about two years ago. I could stop by there and ask if they have any information on it if you want. I believe it was an original adaptation. ----- "Contempt is the weapon of the weak and a defense against one's own despised and unwanted feelings." --Alice Miller Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:24:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Summer reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 May 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Denise Borgen wrote: > > [snip] > > What! a new Tepper that I've missed! when did that come out? > > Sometimes I think I enjoy Tepper for the wrong reasons ( I admit it, > > I love it when she rants, even when I know she's being unfair and/or > > slanted I think she makes some valid points) but both my sister and I grab > > every book by her we can find. > > My first was Gate to Women's Country which was good but didn't really grab > > me. Then a fellow librarian recommended Grass and I was hooked. Now I'm > > trying to collect her earlier fantasies. > > I know what you mean. In many ways I can't help loving it when she > trashes religion. It really feels nice to know that someone out there > is a lot more angry and willing to be nasty about it than I am. Although > I THINK that she is going too far, parts of me FEEL like she hasn't gone > far enough. I especially can't help myself when she makes it funny. Like > that whole thing in _Raising the Stones_ when she talks about how the > religion took the commandment "Thou shall not be sexist pigs" to mean that > pigs were bad and tainted so they shouldn't eat pork. (or something like > that). I think it's the same part of me that like Dilbert cartoons > (especially those with Dogbert trashing someone). Does anyone else notice > that in some ways, Dilbert is a bit feminist? His female co-worker is > very competent and amazingly strong, and his love interest was an > athlete. Just a thought O- > > -- Joel VanLaven > I always thought of Dilbert as an equal opportunity offender -EVERYONE has a fatal flaw. The admittedly intelligent woman seems to lack a sense of humor. But this is a cartoon after all... ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Denise M. Borgen ~ One half of the world cannot ~ ~ ~ understand the pleasures of ~ ~ ~ the other. ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ - Jane Austen ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:49:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: Summer reading On the whole summer reading thing: one summer when I was twelve we went to visit some family, and I, not having anything to do, checked out some books from the library on my aunt's card. One of them was The Science Fictional Olympics, edited by Isaac Asimov. Had some great old classic stuff, like Piers Anthony's Getting Through University. Also one I loved called Why Johnny Can't Speed (don't remember the author). Wish I could get my hands on that one again! Hope Cascio ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:13:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: Acknowledging One's Inner Book (Re: LHOD questions) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Has any dramatization of LHOD ever >>>actually been produced? >>> >>I saw a play of Left Hand of Darkness done at a theatre in Chicago Sounds great -- I'm really sorry I missed it. (Chicago is a bit of a hike from Montreal, where I was living at the time. But I'd have seriously considered going there to see LHOD on stage, had I known about it.) >Yes, I saw this at the LifeLine too (and liked it a lot) about two years >ago. I could stop by there and ask if they have any information on it if >you want. I believe it was an original adaptation. What a nice offer. I would appreciate it very much if you could get the name of a contact person whom I could write to directly. You're welcome to e-mail me. BTW, I first read LHOD at about age 16, in a cottage in the middle of a Canadian winter, breathing the odors of winter in a silent snowy forest beside a frozen lake, my skis propped outside the door, ... all around me a seamless continuation of the Gethenian landscape. Since then, the story has part of my thinking -- or rather, part of my cosmos -- part of the underlying subjective terrain, unconsidered, permanent. Along with _Moby Dick_ and a few others (a fortuitous grouping, no comparison intended). Though I see LHOD's flaws and feel quite regretful about what it *might* have been, I'm not really in a position to speak critically about it. Much as -- for better or worse -- one can't truly speak objectively about one's family, or childhood friends. After all these years it would be just too much trouble to distinguish between what is actually on the pages and what I have brought to them out of myself. :-) Which is why I'm a lurker, I guess! So back to the shadows I go! -- Susan Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:05:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: reproduction and childrearing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Mala, Sounds interesting! Might I add Tiptree's "Houston, Houston Do You Read" to the List?? Has anyone read the Charnas book "The Furies"- I believe it is the third in the "Motherlines" trilogy. I remember that she took a very long time indeed to write it and she aimed to reconcile the horsewomen and the society of Holdfast in this book. The fact that it is called 'The Furies" and features a furious looking female warrior on the cover might indicate that it has failed in her aim of heterosexual reconciliation. You might try Dorothy Byrant's "The Kin of Alta are Waiting for You" which I think recognised two sexes, but I can't remember whether technology was involved in reproduction (actually, I don't think so). A book which tries to reconcile the two sexes is J.C. Carr's Leviathan's Deep- although admittedly it is about an alien matriarchy which is in the process of being colonised by the evil earthlings. One breakaway hero from the evil colonisers is called Neill and he eventually persuades the heroine Kilmassu (?) that companionate heterosexuality is the way to go.The matriarchy despises its males, which it considers stupid, weak etc- and (surprise, surprise) they are stupid and weak.This has obvious applications to the position of women in our culture. However, companionate heterosexuality has a number of drawbacks in the book (and I don't think the book quite intended this)- first of all Neill takes over leadership and dominates Kilmassu, and is a patronising swine.Secondly, the book is very hostile towards homosexuality, with a particularly evil earthling being gay.The book does involve reproduction, and there is a suggestion that Kilmassu and Neill have produced a son, but the how of it is left vague. This matriarchial society is very hostile towards technology in general, but Kilmassu has embraced it as a means of removing the evil earthlings from the planet. So there may be something in reproduction and technology here. But Levianthan's Deep does show how difficult it is once heterosexuality enters the mix to create equitable relationships. Maybe I'm just cynical! You might also like to look at Delany's "Triton", where reproduction and family structure are treated in a very interesting way.And men are included in this society, or should I say "men" as one can change one's sex via technology at will. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:06:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:36 PM 5/18/97 -0500, Monica Gaudio wrote: >The summer reading thread has gotten me thinking about all those great old >books that I read, when I was a teenager, and just discovered Science Fiction. > >So, I pose two questions. What was the first SF/F novel you ever read, and >what was the first "feminist" SF/F novel you ever read? > First SF/F novel was probably _Tarzan_, then the Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars series. The novel that made the most impression on me, however, was _Dune_, which I found in an old trunk of my uncle's on a visit to the US, when I was 11. After that, I was a goner. First feminist novel (at the ripe old age of 25 or so--in grad school, in any case) was Russ' _Female Man_ -- which I found most unpleasant (since it upset my whole patriarchal world-view, which I was just beginning to feel my way through, and finally manipulate, with some amount of success ;). Heather =) PS. Molly Gloss' _Dazzle of Days_ turned out to be quite good, if a bit melancholy. Interesting communal vision of the future, non-utopic or dystopic. Lewitt's _Interface Masque_ has some very interesting premises, but I think I liked _Memento Mori_ better. Next up on the summer reading horizon: _Bending the Landscape: Fantasy_. *bounce* I somehow missed this when it came out last year. hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970520102355.35bfadf6@kent.edu> from "Heather MacLean" at May 20, 97 10:06:42 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about Podkayne of Mars by Heinlein? My grandfather gavie it to me when I was about 10 - I didnt realize how sexist it was at the time but I still loved it. Tasia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:20:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970520102355.35bfadf6@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" > First feminist novel (at the ripe old age of 25 or so--in grad school, in > any case) was Russ' _Female Man_ -- which I found most unpleasant (since it > upset my whole patriarchal world-view, which I was just beginning to feel my > way through, and finally manipulate, with some amount of success ;). > > Heather Me too, on all counts; and it was even _more_ devastating for me! I was in my late thirties, for a start... and for seconds... Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:05:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elaine Kleiner Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: children's fantasy Ursula LeGuin's fantasy trilogy for children is wonderful (ends with "The Farthest Shore" I believe.) I always loved the Howard Pyle "Knights of the Roundtable" series as a child. The pictures were wonderful. Also Evangeline Walton's series on the Mabinogenon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:47:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My first SF book was a collection of short stories aimed at juveniles. I don't remember the name of the book, but I remember several of the stories fairly well. One took place on Pern (one guess who wrote THAT :) ) called something like "The Littlest Dragon Boy", another, which I have no idea of tha name and author, involved a teleporter that a girl and boy came across accidently that lands them as captives of aliens planning invasion. I must have read each story six or seven times before I figured out that there were other sf books around. I guess the second story classifies as feminist sf, too, because the girl was certainly the boy's equal in all respects, mentally and physically. The first novel was "Have Spacesuit Will Travel" by Heinlein. Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I teach a course called "Cyberworlds" to unsophisticated students. It is essentially a course in cyberpunk fiction, Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream of Electronic Sheep, etc. I have decided, at my daughter's instigation, to introduce a feminist cyberpunk novel into the course and I have chosen Melissa Scott's, Trouble and her Friends. The problem is that I have no idea how to analyze it from a feminist perspective. My reading is that it is a typical Gibson type novel with the protagonists being female. I am sure there is considerable subtext that is eluding me. If someone would take the trouble to reply directly to me with some hints as to how to approach/discuss it, I would be extremely grateful, and so would my students. Thanks in advance David Silver 189 McMorran Crescent Thornhill, Ontario L4J 3C8 Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:17:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel In a message dated 97-05-20 11:48:25 EDT, hmaclean@KENT.EDU (Heather MacLean) writes: << Next up on the summer reading horizon: _Bending the Landscape: Fantasy_. *bounce* I somehow missed this when it came out last year.>> Heather, that's probably because it only came out this March. Nicola Nicola Griffith http:/www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:22:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: reproduction and childrearing In a message dated 97-05-20 11:31:18 EDT, twood@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Tanya Wood) writes: << Has anyone read the Charnas book "The Furies"- I believe it is the third in the "Motherlines" trilogy. I remember that she took a very long time indeed to write it and she aimed to reconcile the horsewomen and the society of Holdfast in this book. The fact that it is called 'The Furies" and features a furious looking female warrior on the cover might indicate that it has failed in her aim of heterosexual reconciliation. >> I read THE FURIES less as an attempt to reconcile the two societies as an exploration of power and, particularly, anger: the differences between the genders' (note: I'm *not* talking about biological sex here, but the combination of that and all its societal baggage) expression of outrage. I thought it an interesting and brave book (though a wee bit talky for my taste). Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:13:03 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970520131650.00d8ac88@idirect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 May 1997, David Silver wrote: > I teach a course called "Cyberworlds" to unsophisticated students. It is > essentially a course in cyberpunk fiction, Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream > of Electronic Sheep, etc. I have decided, at my daughter's instigation, to > introduce a feminist cyberpunk novel into the course and I have chosen > Melissa Scott's, Trouble and her Friends. The problem is that I have no > idea how to analyze it from a feminist perspective. My reading is that it > is a typical Gibson type novel with the protagonists being female. I am > sure there is considerable subtext that is eluding me. If someone would > take the trouble to reply directly to me with some hints as to how to > approach/discuss it, I would be extremely grateful, and so would my students. Gibson-type? I think not. Tell me, why do the characters in Gibson's novels do what they do? I might say that they do what they do to survive, for greed, etc. I see Gibson's worlds as being very chaotic and in the "state of nature" (All an oversimplification but there you have it.) Now tell me why the characters in _Trouble and Her Friends_ do what they do? I might say that they do what they do out of pride, rebellion against a system that marginalized them, and even love. Trouble and her friends were oppressed. They were honorable rebels fighting against not just an unfair system that marginalized them but against the dishonorable crooks sharing their marginal world. Trouble was the best (or close to it) in part because she had to be (much the way women (and homosexuals) must be today). I found her to be a particularly exciting character to become because I could feel her righteousness and intrinsic power. That is something that I can say of no Gibson character I have read. Just my reading, -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:23:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Carol McBride Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970520131650.00d8ac88@idirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello! I'm new here, but in answer to the following request/plea for help... the Duke University issue of FLAME WARS ed. by Mark Dery, 92:4 Fall 1983 has a couple of good "readings from a feminist perspective (of course there are many of these perspectives!) Try Anne Balsamo's piece "Feminism for the Incurably Informed",and Claudia Springer's "Sex, Memories, and Angry Women".... and of course, all of Pat Cadigan's work (Synners in particular). The Donna Haraway essay, "A Cyborg Manifest"in SIMIANS CYBORGS AND WOMEN, THE REINVENTION OF NATURE, should be required pre-reading for anything on Cyborgs of course! Hope this helps!!! carol anna mcbride writer/filmmaker On Tue, 20 May 1997, David Silver wrote: > I teach a course called "Cyberworlds" to unsophisticated students. It is > essentially a course in cyberpunk fiction, Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream > of Electronic Sheep, etc. I have decided, at my daughter's instigation, to > introduce a feminist cyberpunk novel into the course and I have chosen > Melissa Scott's, Trouble and her Friends. The problem is that I have no > idea how to analyze it from a feminist perspective. My reading is that it > is a typical Gibson type novel with the protagonists being female. I am > sure there is considerable subtext that is eluding me. If someone would > take the trouble to reply directly to me with some hints as to how to > approach/discuss it, I would be extremely grateful, and so would my students. > > Thanks in advance > > David Silver > > 189 McMorran Crescent > Thornhill, Ontario > L4J 3C8 > Canada > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:29:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Carol McBride Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? Comments: To: Joel VanLaven In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII P.S. For an interesting "take" on how Gibson's characters/novels don't really "deal" or "play" rhetorically with race/gender issues, there is a very good interview with Samuel Delany in the book I mentioned in last posting - FLAME WARS: THE DISCOURSE OF CYBERCULTURE Fall 1993. ed. by Mark Dery - it's called "Black to the Future: Interviews with Samuel R. Delany, Greg Tate, and Tricia Rose"... begins to open up these questions quite nicely...although it's really a take on black s/f writers many of the issues can be cross-dressed with questions of feminism and of why the rhetorical strategies and agendas of many writers' "female protagonists" don't necessarily equal "feminist"... There's a lot of great stuff in this journal, by the way. carol. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks Carol, it helps a lot. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:49:05 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: reproduction and childrearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tanya Wood wrote: > >Has anyone read the Charnas book "The Furies"- > I believe it is the third in the "Motherlines" trilogy. I remember that > she took a very long time indeed to write it and she aimed to reconcile > the horsewomen and the society of Holdfast in this book. The fact that it > is called 'The Furies" and features a furious looking female > warrior on the cover might indicate that it has failed in her aim of > heterosexual reconciliation. > I read _The Furies_ when it first came out a few years ago (so it's a little fuzzy in my memory). She did indeed take a long time to write it. There was a gap of more than a decade between Furies and the book preceding it. Interestingly enough, it's a real time gap in the story as well. (That is, Furies takes place 15 or so years after the previous book.) I heard Charnas say at a convention that she needed all that time before she could write the third book, incorporating all the changes in society in that time. Furies reflects this. _Walk to the End of the World_ and _Motherlines_ showcase more of the late '70s rejection of and anger against the patriarchy. In Furies, the main character is trying to go back and change her culture rather than totally reject it. During the long gap between _Motherlines_ and _The Furies_, Charnas wrote her wonderful YA trilogy (_The Bronze Glove_, _The Silver King_, and something with gold in it, as I recall). I thought these were really super books with a very believable teenage character who lives with her divorced mother in a realistic relationship. Berni Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:55:24 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: children's fantasy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elaine Kleiner wrote: > > Ursula LeGuin's fantasy trilogy for children is wonderful (ends with > "The Farthest Shore" I believe.) The first two books of this are _A Wizard of Earthsea_ (it's commonly called the Earthsea trilogy) and _The Tombs of Atuan_. Some years after the third book (_The Farthest Shore_), Le Guin came out with a fourth book, _Tehanu_, which is really not for children. _Tehanu_ is much darker than the first three and carries the hero and heroine of the first three books (Ged and Tenar) into middle age. Ged has lost his powers (this happened at the end of the third book) and Tenar is widowed, having married an ordinary man and rejected any power she might have had. The two of them try to live ordinary lives along with an abused child whom Tenar has rescued. Berni Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:15:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: k dawson Subject: Re: children's fantasy Comments: To: Berni Phillips In-Reply-To: <3381BB5C.6AD9@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 May 1997, Berni Phillips wrote: > > The first two books of this are _A Wizard of Earthsea_ (it's commonly > called the Earthsea trilogy) and _The Tombs of Atuan_. Some years after > the third book (_The Farthest Shore_), Le Guin came out with a fourth > book, _Tehanu_, which is really not for children. _Tehanu_ is much > There's a fourth book?! As long as we're talking childhood books, I read that trilogy over and over. Guess I'm heading to the bookstore tonight! THANK YOU. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:41:38 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: First SF-Book I have lurked on this list for some time now, but have never found the time to participate. The question concerning the first sf book and the first feminist sf book prodded me to become actively involved. My first sf book was also my first feminist sf book: The Left Hand of Darkness (LHOD). At 16 a (male) friend of mine lent it to me. The actual story I did not find so interesting but I was thrilled by the concept of people with no/two sexes and what consequences that had for the society. I tried to find similar books, i.e. science fictions/utopias exploring gender issues - without much success (that was 15 years ago). I read other books by Le Guin, interesting but they do not meet that criteria (IMHO). Nowadays, the bigger bookstores in Germany carry books in English languages, in 1980 that was restricted to the classics. It usually takes 2-3 years before English-written books are translated to German and, of course, not all are done. On my last visit to the US (in 1993) I happened to hit on The Gate to Woman's Country. That was the starting point to look for more, also in German bookstores. Things have changed a lot since the early eighties. The homepage by Laura Quilter also helped. I often go to business trips to the UK and nowadays I always take a list of feminist science fiction to buy with me. That reminds me, what happened to the homepage of the WisCon conference and the James Tiptree award? Apparently it moved. Can somebody help me with the new www address? Another question: I have read LHOD in German (translated title "Winter Planet"). What does the expression "left hand of darkness" refer to? I imagine it is a standing English expression but could not find it in any reference book. Or does it refer to any part of the story? (I cannot remember enough of the details of the story.) >From a German viewpoint science-fiction is a more or less anglo-saxon domain, with few exceptions (e.g. Strugatzki, Lem?). Of course, there are German science fiction writers, but it always feels strange, when the scene is not in Northern America or the main actors are not of US-American descendancy or all these English expressions for the futuristic stuff are missing (my apologies to the British, but when it is in English I tend to assume it is US-American). There are only few successful German science fiction writers (male), but I have to own I have not read them and at the moment I cannot remember the names. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:22:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: First SF-Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just signed up to this list and I wish I could remember what my first science fiction book was? I know I read children's SF - John Christopher, Peter Dickinson - I can't quite remember who wrote _The Tripods_ Trilogy and who wrote the stories about _The Changes_ when technology ceased to function. HM Hoover's Children of Morrow was one I bought then and reread recently - still think it's great. I also read John Wyndham fairly young. I'm talking junior school age - 7-11. (Not to mention the fantasy - the Earthsea Trilogy, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings and huge swathes of mythology - Greek, Egyptian, Celtic) Then the usual suspects, Asimov, Heinlein, etc and I know I read Ursula le Guin, but as an adolescent decided it wasn't proper SF. The first feminist SF that I read consciously was in 1993 - at the ripe old age of 28, studying for a Gender Studies MA - and was Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy which I found hugely inspiring. So inspiring that a project began which I am now working on at the University of Sussex as a part-time doctoral student, looking at how and why feminists use the SF genre to work through feminist ideas. This is a long and rambling message, but hopefully it gives you a rough idea of where I am coming from. Joan Haran ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:15:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: First SF-Book In-Reply-To: <33833D56.1CE0@dial.pipex.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The first book I read that I knew was SF beforehand was an Ace double novel--entirely forgettable but I did persue the doubles for many years and found some real gems hidden in them. Every once in a while I go back and re-read Pirates of Zan--one of the funniest books in ANY genre. Once I read that first double, I knew I had already read SF--does anyone remember The Mushroom Planet series? I must have read the first in second grade--along with the original story for the movie THEM (giant mutated ants in the desert) and quite a few early "center of the earth" tales--and Haggard's She. My parents only forbid me to read one book, Brave New World, so at within a week I had a paperback copy I read under the covers--I was 9. The only problem I had with it was the scene at the beginning of the babies in bottles--I had bad dreams about that for years. ReBirth was another novel that really blew my mind then too. Once I discovered Heinlein's juveniles, though, I was thoroughly hooked. Yes, even though the "hero" was almost always male, they were good stories of adventure and courage. As I read, I usually consciously just changed the sexes around! Even today, DECADES later, in times of extreme stress my "comfort" books are Citizen of the Galaxy or Tunnels in the Sky. I don't know that today, though, I'd recommend starting a young girl out on them--there's so much available now with intelligent heroines!--A few years ago I came across Le Guin's Catwings and Hoover's Children of Morrow and loved both. I'll have to admit to occassionally sneaking over to the Young Adult section in the library to see what's new. Our local library seems to find YA SF acceptable, but they don't get too much "adult" that aren't the big names. My girls are now teenagers and are resisting any of my interests, so they avoid anything they know is SF--but I did manage to get them to read Panshin's (sp?) Rite of Passage and they loved it. What about SF movies that people saw when young? I can remember seeing War of the Worlds and being impressed. I didn't go to the movies that often as a kid, but in my twenties I saw No Blade of Grass and through that was introduced to John Christopher's books. What did others watch? Sue Hagedorn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:44:10 -0400 Reply-To: Tanya Wood Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? Comments: To: Joel VanLaven In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Joel, Haven't read Melissa Scott, but Nicola Nixon wrote a fabulous article for Science Fiction Studies 4 or so years ago about the subtexts of Gibson's Neuromancer, which debunked the idea of cyberpunk as a revolutionary genre at least so far as feminists were concerned. The details I remember particularly were how the computer matrix- a chaotic and quasi-mystical space- was encoded feminine, populated by the likes of 3Jane, and mama Brigette. It should come as no surprise that console cowboys (generally male) "jack in" and "ride" the (female) matrix, and finally (sort of) triumph in a John Wayne on the frontier kind of way. Against this, however, is the figure of Molly Millions, who with her knife-like retractable nails and silver eyes, and fundamental dislike of emotional entanglements with Case reminded me strongly of Jael in The Female Man(whose use of Davy the human-chimpanzee figure seems more or less how Molly was trying to treat Case). MM is quite impressive in Istanbal- I think she killed someone who insulted her in a sexist way...reminiscent of Jael and the "Boss-Man" scene when Jael takes that bloke from Manland literally apart. Nixon points out that the phrase "When it Changed" occurs in Neuromancer, describing when the matrix goes from rational to irrational. *sigh* Neuromancer seems to me to have a surface text which preports to be aware of feminist issues, and a sub-text which denies them. Somehow I doubt that Melissa Scott does the same thing, although it would be interesting to compare her encoding of technology with Gibson. I must admit I am a little uneasy at the idea of "turning on" feminist analysis for a novel by a woman, then turning it off again for "everybody else", which your e-mail sort of implied Joel, but I may well be jumping to conclusions. But every novel by a women on reading lists helps...... Tanya PS Thanks to those who commented on "The Furies"- I will definitely read it: I'm a bit limited by the U of T book selection, alas, as I am too poor to actually buy books. Must go down to the famous Judith Merril collection sometime very soon. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:13:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Merrill Collection Comments: To: Tanya Wood In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > it: I'm a bit limited by the U of T book selection, alas, as I am too poor > to actually buy books. Must go down to the famous Judith Merril collection > sometime very soon. NH: The Merril Collection will do well by you. In general, I find that sf available through the Toronto Public Library system is excellent. And if you have a library card, you can dial in electronically and search, reserve and renew titles that way. But going to the Special Collections library that houses the Merril Collection is probably more fun, if only to climb on the stone griffins. BTW, Nancy Kress will be reading there either this week or next. I can check the date for you if you like. $10 cost, that goes towards the Friends of the Merril, I think. -nalo > "While you're imitating Al Capone, I'll be Nina Simone, And be defecatin' on your microphone." -Lauryn, The Fugees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:25:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Re: First SF-Book Petra asked: >That reminds me, what happened to the homepage of the WisCon >conference and the James Tiptree award? Apparently it moved. Can >somebody help me with the new www address? http://www.sf3.org/ is the home page for the group that runs WisCon, and they have a link to the Tiptree page as well. >Another question: I have read LHOD in German (translated title >"Winter Planet"). What does the expression "left hand of darkness" >refer to? I imagine it is a standing English expression but could not >find it in any reference book. Or does it refer to any part of the >story? (I cannot remember enough of the details of the story.) I'm fairly sure it's from a piece of poetry in the novel, and I believe LeGuin wrote the poem for the novel - so far as I know it is not an English or American idiomatic expression. "Light is the left hand of darkness, And darkness the right hand of light." --Ruth Ann ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:52:06 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: First SF-Book In-Reply-To: <01BC65D1.5572FA20@rj1.lib.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" > > I'm fairly sure it's from a piece of poetry in the novel, and I believe > LeGuin wrote the poem for the novel - so far as I know it is not an > English or American idiomatic expression. > > "Light is the left hand of darkness, > And darkness the right hand of light." > > --Ruth Ann > Which is presumably intended to encapsulate the Taoist message of the book? Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:06:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Tanya (and everyone else), About Molly (from Neuromancer). I considered her to be a very sexist construct. In Neuromancer, I got the impression that power was not physical but intellectual/electronic. So, Molly's physical "prowess" wasn't really all that important. Also, she was the most sexualized character in the book. The sex with Molly and Case was going on the entire book. I guess I just have a "dirty picture" view of Molly. She seemed like some sort of male fantasy, a little non-traditional fantasy, but a sex-object none the less. I am sure that I could have read it differently, but I think the sex-object was at least in there. I have GOT to read _The Female Man_. I feel so left out. Before all of these testimonials it was the title that turned me off. It was an older book at the library and seemed like it might be about women becoming like men. Without other insight from friends and so on the cover IS the only way to judge a book (before you read it). It seems I misjudged. I am more than uneasy about only "turning on" feminist analysis for works by women. Just to make it clear, I think there are several works by men deserving of consideration as feminist (and even queer-feminist) and works by women that are patriarchal and/or sexist. In this case, I would say that _Trouble and Her Friends_ should be considered queer-feminist for at least these reasons: 1) the protagonists are women who are smart, "intrinsically powerful," complex, and "identifiable with" (I run out of words easily). 2) the issues that they deal with include sexism and homophobia (demonstrated rather than simply named) 3) these same issues of sexism and homophobia are part of (or indicitave of) larger disturbing societal problems that are demonstrated in the background and linked to the protagonists and their specific problems in complex ways. All of this is only my own reading and opinion of course :) In a way, you could say that the book is feminist simply because a woman wrote it. After all, it wasn't that long ago that it would never have been published. Also, there is an expectation that only a book by a woman can properly address what it means to be a woman. However, I don't give much weight to that anymore. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:50:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: children's fantasy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:55 PM 5/20/97 +0100, Berni Phillips wrote: >...Le Guin came out with a fourth >book, _Tehanu_, which is really not for children. _Tehanu_ is much >darker than the first three and carries the hero and heroine of the >first three books (Ged and Tenar) into middle age. Ged has lost his >powers (this happened at the end of the third book) and Tenar is >widowed, having married an ordinary man and rejected any power she might >have had. The two of them try to live ordinary lives along with an >abused child whom Tenar has rescued. I have to disagree that _Tehanu_ is not for children. It may be a little more gritty, but I think that it gives a good balance to the Earthsea series by representing in some detail the life of the average woman in Earthsea. As several people (including Le Guin) have pointed out, the first three books were unquestioningly sexist (there are no woman mages, women are portrayed as being incapable of learning anything more than weak love spells or tapping into sinister natural forces, as in _Tombs of Atuan_). I really like the entire series, but I am troubled by the sexism of the first three books and think that Tehanu, while being less cohesive and formal in its style, provides an important counterbalance which children would really benefit from experiencing. --Janice ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:55:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? Comments: To: jvl@ocsystems.com In a message dated 97-05-21 02:58:35 EDT, jvl@ocsystems.com (Joel VanLaven) writes: On Tue, 20 May 1997, David Silver wrote: > I teach a course called "Cyberworlds" to unsophisticated students. It is > essentially a course in cyberpunk fiction, Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream > of Electronic Sheep, etc. I have decided, at my daughter's instigation, to > introduce a feminist cyberpunk novel into the course and I have chosen > Melissa Scott's, Trouble and her Friends. The problem is that I have no > idea how to analyze it from a feminist perspective. Try looking at it from the point of view of how the characters relate to their physical bodies. I think you'll find the attitudes quite different. Gibson's people don't think much of the flesh; Scott's do. A feminist perspective might include analysis of the acceptance of cartesian dualism in Gibson's work, and the rejection of it in Scott's, etc. etc. [If you're interested, I wrote an essay, "Writing from the Body," about some of these things from a personal perspective. It can be found on my homepage.] Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:10:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nicola, Thanks, I've downloaded the essay and I will read it after I've done some work. By the way, I've been a fan of yours since I read Ammonite and I appreciate the bibliography on your home page. Just one question, do you think Trouble and Her Friends will hold the interest of a not-very-literate group of technical students? The mix is about 1/3 females to 2/3 men, and they complain of Neuromancer because its too difficult. Thanks again for courtesy and help David Silver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:03:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: First SF-Book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +++ X8??#i^?? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:10:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Whoops, Sorry #2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apologies to the list, twice today I've intended to send private messages but they ended up being broadcast to everyone. Interesting note, they are not coming back in the order in which they're sent and one was posted immediately, the other 2 hours later. Must be the web gremlins at work. David Silver ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:29:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: sf: canadian french and english In-Reply-To: <1CA47FC4A69@iers1.ier.uni-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 May 1997, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > >From a German viewpoint science-fiction is a more or less anglo-saxon > domain, with few exceptions (e.g. Strugatzki, Lem?). Of course, there are > German science fiction writers, but it always feels strange, when the > scene is not in Northern America or the main actors are not of > US-American descendancy or all these English expressions for the > futuristic stuff are missing (my apologies to the British, but > when it is in English I tend to assume it is US-American). There are > only few successful German science fiction writers (male), but I have > to own I have not read them and at the moment I cannot remember the > names. > > > Petra Petra, I can't help but put a note in here about not lumping things Canadian in with things American, including sf. While there are many cultural, social and economic similarities and ties between Canada and the US, there are many differences as well (and us Canadians can get quite insistent on it). There's a great deal of Canadian sf around, both in english and in french, predominantly from Quebec. English sf comes from many places, I'm aware of having read writing by english sf writers from the US, Canada, Britain, and Australia. You do have an interesting point about the bulk of sf being written in the 'western world.' I know I've read some sf translated from Russian but other than that I at least am ignorant about whether much sf, in any guise, is being written in other languages. An earlier thread discussed Magical Realism, a latin american genre whose 'fatastical' qualities relate in some ways with sf & f. Are other people aware of sf written in other languages or other genres or traditions that bear some relation to sf from non-english cultures? Robin Gordon now living in Toronto, but a proud Saskatchewan prairie girl at heart ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:53:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: First SF-Book In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" sue hagedorn wrote: >Once I read that first double, I knew I had already read SF--does anyone >remember The Mushroom Planet series? Mr. Myco! YES! yesyesyes!! Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:08:34 -0800 Reply-To: Emily@exo.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Emily Hackbarth Organization: very little Subject: Re: First SF-Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > sue hagedorn wrote: > >Once I read that first double, I knew I had already read SF--does > >anyone remember The Mushroom Planet series? > > Mr. Myco! YES! yesyesyes!! > > > Neil Rest Close, it's Tyco. Tyco M. Bass to be exact. :-) I still have my copy. Emily Hackbarth emily@exo.com The Beadworker--http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html My Miningco Beadwork Site--http://beadwork.miningco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:06:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? David, just tell them there's some hot cyberspace sex about two-thirds of the way through. That should keep them reading... (In other words--I'm really not sure. I'm a very bad judge of what will and will not appeal to others. Sorry.) Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:19:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: sf: canadian french and english Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robin wrote, in response to Petra-- >You do have an interesting point about the bulk of sf being written in the >'western world.' I know I've read some sf translated from Russian but >other than that I at least am ignorant about whether much sf, in any >guise, is being written in other languages. An earlier thread discussed >Magical Realism, a latin american genre whose 'fatastical' qualities >relate in some ways with sf & f. Are other people aware of sf written in >other languages or other genres or traditions that bear some relation to >sf from non-english cultures? > I think I remember a collection of Japanese sf that came out --gee, a while ago, perhaps 5-6 yrs? Interesting, and *quite* different stuff. Perhaps someone more detail-oriented (or smarter) can remember the title/editor, sorry... Since I study Francophone sf, I'm always on the lookout for non-Western stuff. The magical realism sometimes qualifies (depending on how related or not it is to religion, most of the time); but I don't have access to a lot of African literature (being in a small, mid-western US town =/ ) -- I'd like to imagine, however, that some of it might qualify as well, and would love to explore it more. (gotta write them grant proposals to get to a French-speaking country...) Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In a message dated 97-05-20 11:48:25 EDT, hmaclean@KENT.EDU (Heather MacLean) >writes: > ><< Next up on the summer reading horizon: _Bending the Landscape: Fantasy_. > *bounce* I somehow missed this when it came out last year.>> > >Heather, that's probably because it only came out this March. > >Nicola > Heh. I get so confused when the copyrights extend over 2 pages... *laugh* Love the stories, though. =) Heather (ditz) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:14:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christopher Shaffer Subject: Re: sf: canadian french and english In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970521203655.3dbf818c@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 May 1997, Heather MacLean wrote: > Robin wrote, in response to Petra-- > >You do have an interesting point about the bulk of sf being written in the > >'western world.' I know I've read some sf translated from Russian but > >other than that I at least am ignorant about whether much sf, in any > >guise, is being written in other languages. An earlier thread discussed > >Magical Realism, a latin american genre whose 'fatastical' qualities > >relate in some ways with sf & f. Are other people aware of sf written in > >other languages or other genres or traditions that bear some relation to > >sf from non-english cultures? > > > I think I remember a collection of Japanese sf that came out --gee, a while > ago, perhaps 5-6 yrs? Interesting, and *quite* different stuff. Perhaps > someone more detail-oriented (or smarter) can remember the title/editor, > sorry... I'm almost finished reading _HARD BOILED WONDERLAND and the End of the World_ by Haruki Murakami, translated from Japanese by Alfred Birnbaum. It has several very intelligent female characters, but I wouldn't call it feminist. It's near future cypherpunk, alternating between modern Tokyo and a walled city named the End of the World. Quite good. Very odd. ----- The box said 'Requires Windows 95, or better.' So I bought a Macintosh. Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:18:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: sf: canadian french and english In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >----- >The box said 'Requires Windows 95, or better.' So I bought a Macintosh. >Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ Hahahaha, ;-). I love it. Folkz, Who's read "The Food Farm" by Kit Reed? I've just finished reading it for a class and I want to say it's reinforced my belief that beauty's only skin deep, but instead I think it merely substituted, in the end, the physical ideal from thin to fat. On that level, I don't know what to think of it because it's on the one hand not moving forward in the sense of having people accept others whatever they look like and on the other it's at least putting forth a concept like this: what if the physical ideal was heavy, like ____________(fill in name of favorite heavy female star) instead of the Cindy Crawfords and Courtney Coxes of the world? An interesting idea, this one, which deserves examination. I don't know that the world would be any better because then thin people'd feel like heavy ones do now (which I'm finding out as I seem to gain girth). -Sean Johnston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:04:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Whoops, Sorry #2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to apologize, too, for the random characters I sent out earlier. That's what happens when one gets booted from the net in the middle of writing something. Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:56:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: 'other' sf and f In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970521203655.3dbf818c@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here are some titles: _I, Tituba: Black Witch of Salem_ by Guadeloupe-born Maryse Conde' _The Palm Wine Drinkard_ by African Amos Tutuola _Feather Woman of the Jungle_, ditto _Fire in the Canes_ by Barbadian Glenville Lovell _Divina Trace_ by Trinidadian Robert Antoni _The Black Insider_ by Dambudzo Marechera (Africa/England) Closer to this part of the world, these American authors: _Voodoo Dreams: A Novel of Marie Laveau_ by Jewell Parker Rhodes _Mumbo Jumbo_ and _Freelance Pallbearers_ by Ishmael Reed _An Open Weave_ by devorah major _Middle Passage_ by Charles Johnson _The Gilda Stories_ by Jewelle Gomez _The Between_ by Tananarive Due _When Fox is a Thousand_ by Larissa Lai (Canada) I'm also currently getting a serious buzz off Shani Mootoo's novel _Cereus Blooms at Night (Caribbean/Canada). Not easily definable as fantasy or magic realism, though it seems to kind of flirt with the latter. -nalo "While you're imitating Al Capone, I'll be Nina Simone, And be defecatin' on your microphone." -Lauryn, The Fugees