========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:08:42 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: sf: swedish Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Some SF / F both for adults and children, but not much, has been written in Swedish. Most of it though is derivative of the tradition in English-spoken countries to the extent that the protagonists very often have English namens. Few stories are that good, but there is an exception. There are some 3-4 novels from the late 60's early 70's by an author called Bertil Mårtensson that are both original and well-written. They definititely would deserve translation to other languages. Swedish SF fans have published some anthologies in the 70's with short stories from other culture's than the English sphere for didactc reasons. My very first stories in the genre that I read were British children's books about kids travelling to other times through various means and other stories like that. I used to search for anything like that translated into Swedish. My earliest SF novels that I can remember were _Dragon Quest_ by McCaffrey and _Have Spacesuit_ by Heinlein. Between them they got me hooked at an early age and I ransacked the library shelve's for more. In my teens the big boon was when I discovered a book-club and the Jules Verne-magazine all in Swedish. Another victory was when I mastered English well enough to read novels in it, then the SF / world stood open for me. The first SF/F book I read in English was Tolkien's _Silmarillion_ at seventeen. Okey due to heavy workload, back to lurking mode again. Britt-Inger Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:43:47 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? In-Reply-To: <970521200648_-96023548@emout12.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 May 1997, Nicola Griffith wrote: > David, just tell them there's some hot cyberspace sex about two-thirds of the > way through. That should keep them reading... (In other words--I'm really > not sure. I'm a very bad judge of what will and will not appeal to others. > Sorry.) Don't tell them THAT! Depending on the audience you might want to tell them that there is sex in it, but never them where :). It is a little difficult to judge the difficulty level of most mainstream books. They all seem fun and (rather) easy to me. What exactly are they complaining about? are they complaining about the plot? the vocabulary? the grammar? the strangeness of surroundings? something else? Ask them. I would think that it would be very difficult to understand someone else's obviously different mind/mental environment. The best bet is to have them explain what is going on in their heads. Another thing you might want to do is to "prep" them. Perhaps they are simply not delving deep enough to find the interesting things. So, if you give them hints about what to look for and so on, they might get more than a shallow plot-line and so understand and appreciate the book more. (though this might not be the problem) Just some ideas, -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:18:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >-Sean Johnston commented: >Folkz, > Who's read "The Food Farm" by Kit Reed? I've just finished reading >it for a class and I want to say it's reinforced my belief that beauty's >only skin deep, but instead I think it merely substituted, in the end, the >physical ideal from thin to fat. On that level, I don't know what to think >of it because it's on the one hand not moving forward in the sense of >having people accept others whatever they look like and on the other it's >at least putting forth a concept like this: what if the physical ideal was >heavy, like ____________(fill in name of favorite heavy female star) >instead of the Cindy Crawfords and Courtney Coxes of the world? An >interesting idea, this one, which deserves examination. I don't know that >the world would be any better because then thin people'd feel like heavy >ones do now (which I'm finding out as I seem to gain girth). > While I haven't read the work in question, it made me think of changing fashion being linked to wealth in the past, and probably in the future. Rubenesque women were favored because they showed they could afford enough food to be that way. Even as early as the turn of the century, those who could eat believed in letting it show. It was only recently, with the advent of easily available and cheap starchy foods available to the masses, and more $$ required to afford health foods, spas and the like that thin became in. IIRC from my studies. I don't recall any SF stories specifically addressing weight (although _The Female Man_ mentions a preference for "big assed women"), but I can think of several where the masses had synthetic food and the rich had the more exotic "natural" food. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:48:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Difficult Gibson Comments: To: Joel VanLaven In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'd suspect that anyone not familiar with sf who picks up William Gibson for the first time might find it a struggle. His prose, to my eye, is very stylized. Combine that with unfamiliar vocab and setting, and it might be daunting. I enjoy a lot of Gibson's work, but had the odd experience of trying to listen to _Virtual Light_ as an audiocassette (read by the man who played Robocop, don't remember his name, but he did a good job). For the first 5 to 10 minutes, I hadn't a clue what was going on. I could tell what most of the words meant singly, but not together. Got into it fairly quickly, but it was strange to realise that the same words I had read easily on the page took so long to decipher when I no longer had the ability to stop and mull over particular phrases for meaning. -nalo "And when I'm done with my logic and my theory, I throw in a 'motherfucker!' so you ignorant niggers hear me." -Lauryn, The Fugees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:45:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elaine Kleiner Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: sf: canadian french and english There's a lot of Romanian science fiction around. It flourished before the revolution. Every town had its own sf circle. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:23:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Wiscon gathering In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For list members going to wiscon who want to get together: How about meeting by the message board just after noon on saturday to go get lunch (or to make plans then for another time if saturday lunch won't work)? *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:31:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Romanian sf In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 May 1997, Elaine Kleiner wrote: > There's a lot of Romanian science fiction around. It flourished > before the revolution. Every town had its own sf circle. > that's incredibly interesting! Do know much about why sf in particular was so popular? was it a safe way of discussing politics before the revolution? do you know of any articles available about this? how is romanian sf like or not like other sft, particularly british/ canadian/ american? Robin Gordon ***************** "Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right." ani difranco ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:30:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Difficult Gibson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I enjoy a lot of Gibson's work, but had the odd >experience of trying to listen to _Virtual Light_ as an audiocassette >(read by the man who played Robocop, don't remember his name, but he did >a good job). >-nalo > >"And when I'm done with my logic and my theory, >I throw in a 'motherfucker!' so you ignorant niggers hear me." > -Lauryn, The Fugees That'd be Peter Weller. What's up with the "ignorant _______"? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:34:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Kendrick Subject: Frankenstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, I just had to enthuse, forgive me. Wow. I haven't read this book since high school. And I'm teaching it this summer. It is fantastic -- and since it is considered by some the first "science fiction" novel, I encourage those of you who haven't read it in a while to do so now. It is fascinating to read "back" to Frankenstein after reading all the cyborg lit of late. Mary Shelley captures much of the mystery, complexity, ethical issues, that proport to be "new" to science -- cloning, technology, creating "life forms" in the laboratory. And there is a strong feminist subtext related to the powers of creation (it takes victor about 9 months to make his monster), the responsibility of childrearing, illegitmacy.... Anyways, I have been really captivated by this text. Do read it if its been awhile! Michelle _______________________________________________________________ Michelle R. Kendrick Assistant Professor of English Washington State University 14204 NE Salmon Creek Avenue Vancouver, Washington 98686 (360)546-9645 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Wiscon gathering: *12:30* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OOPS: since the lunch break is from 12:30-2, let's meet at the message board just after 12:30 on saturday, not noon. *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:20:20 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: First SF-Book Comments: To: Emily@exo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The Mushroom Planet, oh my god!! I am positively SWIMMING in nostalgia!! I think I was about 9 when I read it, and I confess that I had no idea that there was a series!!!! I read _The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet_ at least 17 times, and I think my original copy might still be in a box in my father's basement. Can anyone tell me the names of the other titles and whether or not they're still available? Edrie Sobstyl University of Texas at Dallas On Wed, 21 May 1997 15:08:34 -0800 Emily Hackbarth wrote: > From: Emily Hackbarth > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:08:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: First SF-Book > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > > sue hagedorn wrote: > > >Once I read that first double, I knew I had already read SF--does > > >anyone remember The Mushroom Planet series? > > > > Mr. Myco! YES! yesyesyes!! > > > > > > Neil Rest > > > Close, it's Tyco. Tyco M. Bass to be exact. :-) I still have my copy. > > > Emily Hackbarth > emily@exo.com > The Beadworker--http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html > My Miningco Beadwork Site--http://beadwork.miningco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:30:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Difficult Gibson In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 May 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > That'd be Peter Weller. What's up with the "ignorant _______"? > > -Sean NH: Point. I'm quoting, not originating (I didn't write those words; she did), and I sometimes forget that visual info is lost on line. So I'm probably going to change that sig file next go 'round to avoid offense. I'm Black, I like the Fugees, I'm a woman writer who tries in part to write about culture and identity, and ever since I heard that line, I've been giggling at one woman's take on how to get your conscious message across. 'Scuse if I made your hair raise. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:35:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: sf: canadian french and english In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elaine Kleiner wrote: >There's a lot of Romanian science fiction around. It flourished >before the revolution. Every town had its own sf circle. Eastern Europe in general had an enormous sf scene before the walls fell down. IIRC, Pargue had at least a hundred sf clubs by itself. A lot of the publishing got through a loophole in the censorship laws. A social club could publish for internal distribution without censorship. So sf clubs published books with print runs equal to the membership. As a large example, Parcon, the Czechoslovakian national convention, published a best of the year anthology; each member of the convention got a copy of the book. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:02:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Difficult Gibson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Point. I'm quoting, not originating (I didn't write those words; she >did), and I sometimes forget that visual info is lost on line. So I'm >probably going to change that sig file next go 'round to avoid offense. >I'm Black, I like the Fugees, I'm a woman writer who tries in part to >write about culture and identity, and ever since I heard that line, I've >been giggling at one woman's take on how to get your conscious message >across. > >'Scuse if I made your hair raise. > >-nalo Nalo, That's quite all right. You're excused. Do you write SF? --Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:04:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: quoting and writing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 May 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > Nalo, > Do you write SF? > > --Sean NH: Primarily fantasy, although I'm working on some stuff that might be termed science fantasy if it ever sees the light of day. I have a story in an antho that's just hit the bookstands: _Black Swan, White Raven,_ edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling. It's a collection of re-interpreted folk tales. Mine is called "Riding the Red." It's my first pro sale. Scary stuff, getting your feet wet for the first time. -nalo "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elaine Kleiner Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: sf: canadian french and english MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for the info on sf censorship in eastern europe. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:36:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elaine Kleiner Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: Romanian sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Romanian SF seems to be in large part either utopian or near to fantasy, mostly set on earth. There's an article on this in SFS , March 1992. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: quoting and writing In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Thu, 22 May 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >> >> Nalo, >> Do you write SF? >> >> --Sean > >NH: Primarily fantasy, although I'm working on some stuff that might be >termed science fantasy if it ever sees the light of day. I have a story >in an antho that's just hit the bookstands: _Black Swan, White Raven,_ >edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling. It's a collection of >re-interpreted folk tales. Mine is called "Riding the Red." It's my >first pro sale. Scary stuff, getting your feet wet for the first time. > >-nalo > >"I recommend biting off more than you can chew, >To anyone." > -Alanis Morissette Nalo, Okay, I'm envious. You've a sale and I'm still waiting on word from Baen on one of my novels. Grrrr! :) -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:06:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: quoting and writing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 May 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Nalo, > Okay, I'm envious. You've a sale and I'm still waiting on word > from Baen on one of my novels. Grrrr! :) > > -Sean > NH: Ah, but yours is a novel and mine is but a short-short, barely over 1,000 words. :) Just got home from work, and my contributor's copy was in the mail. Whee! It's real! Off to phone my mum and sib. -nalo "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:20:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Wiscon gathering: *12:30* In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Heather and anyone else who will be at WisCon. I don't know whether I'll be able to make the 12:30 time or not. It depends in part on the opinions of two other people (spouse and 9 year old) both of whom have very clear ideas about what they want to do with their time in Madison. I'll be at the con, however, and hope to meet some of you. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: quoting and writing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 May 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > > > Nalo, > > Do you write SF? > > > > --Sean > > NH: Primarily fantasy, although I'm working on some stuff that might be > termed science fantasy if it ever sees the light of day. I have a story > in an antho that's just hit the bookstands: _Black Swan, White Raven,_ > edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling. It's a collection of > re-interpreted folk tales. Mine is called "Riding the Red." It's my > first pro sale. Scary stuff, getting your feet wet for the first time. > > -nalo > > "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, > To anyone." > -Alanis Morissette > Nalo, Congratulations on your first pro sale. The Datlow/Windling fairytale series is a pretty tony place to start out too! I'll look for your story. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:33:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: Mushroom Planet (Re: First SF Book) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I read >_The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet_ at least 17 times, and I think >my original copy >might still be in a box in my father's basement. Can anyone tell me the >names of the other titles >and whether or not they're still available? > > Edrie Sobstyl ***re-delurk*** You sound like someone in serious need. :-) The only other title I can remember is _Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet_ (but after all, how could one forget such a title?). As to availability... ??? But even if the 'Shroom books are out of print, you can probably find copies by checking some used SF book dealers' sites on the WWW. (E-mail me if you want some URLs.) Incidentally, on the original subject: I have no recollection of what was my first SF book -- impossible -- there were too many of them too early (starting at I-don't-know-what age but certainly before I was 10). :-) ***re-relurk*** -- Susan (SF nerd ab ovo) Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:12:05 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: Difficult Gibson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From my Swedish point of view despite an excellent command of English I found Gibson trying when I first picked up Neuromancer, and actually put it aside the first time. The second time I persevered despite slow going, and only when I read the next book by him did I truly feel comfortable with his language. Stylistically he reminds me of a special genre of hard boiled detective novels where the language is very terse, the grammar intentionally primitive. Also as Nalo mentioned the vocabulary is to a great extent very specialised, and much of the slang invented for his plots. Which of course will be daunting to a not very expereienced reader. Still, I appreciate that he has gone to great lenghts in adapting his style and story telling to this future world and thus telling it from "within", but it makes life a little tougher for the reader. Bi Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:10:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: Mushrooms no more Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/authorsC.html#EBCameron there is, unfortunately, a notice of the death of Eleanor Butler Cameron (23 Mar 1912 - 11 Oct 1996), author of the Mushroom Planet books. The notice lists: "Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet" (Boston: Little Brown, 1954), "Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet" (Boston: Little Brown, 1956), "Mr.Bass' Planetoid" (Boston: Little Brown, 1958), "Mystery for Mr.Bass" (Boston: Little Brown, 1960), "Time and Mr.Bass" (Boston: Little Brown, 1967). -- Susan Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:49:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Bryant, Jennifer" Subject: Re: Mushroom Planet (Re: First SF Book) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Mushroom Plant series may not have been my first sci-fi but they were my first sci-fi series. While it did feature men, it still gave me ideas on what could be accomplished if only one tried. (Plus it was fun.) Jennifer B. Bryant IT-Computing Technologies Support AOC 200 974-1236 http://nitty.rmit.usf.edu/usfit/custserv/cshome.htm C:\DOS C:\DOS\RUN RUN\DOS\RUN >---------- >From: Susan Armstrong[SMTP:anariska@MORTIMER.COM] >Sent: Friday, May 23, 1997 3:33 AM >To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu >Subject: Mushroom Planet (Re: First SF Book) > >>I read >>_The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet_ at least 17 times, and I think >>my original copy >>might still be in a box in my father's basement. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:40:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Nalo's story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> NH: Primarily fantasy, although I'm working on some stuff that might be >> termed science fantasy if it ever sees the light of day. I have a story >> in an antho that's just hit the bookstands: _Black Swan, White Raven,_ >> edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling. It's a collection of >> re-interpreted folk tales. Mine is called "Riding the Red." It's my >> first pro sale. Scary stuff, getting your feet wet for the first time. >> >> -nalo Add my congratulations. And should one assume this is a "Little Red Riding Hood" variation? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:42:52 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: reproduction and childrearing Comments: To: essency@warp6.cs.misu.nodak.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 May 1997 08:15:07 -0700 Janet E. Essency wrote: > > Dear Mala, > I thought Ethan of Athos by Bujold had some interesting points about > children & reproduction. Male-only society which reproduces without > women at all. Males do all the childrearing which is actually considered > a value to society. What a concept. Hope this helps. Janet A brilliant book. Child rearing is not just valued it brings social and financial status. One of the best reversal books I know of. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:46:45 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: children's sf Comments: To: Joel VanLaven MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Robert C. OBrien's The Silver Crown is a superb sf/fantasy story for children. A very impressive heroine. Also Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword (her other books too but I specially liked this one). Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:44:23 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: midnight feasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 May 1997 14:32:13 +0100 Edward James wrote: while there have been half a dozen > good studies of boys' school books that I know of, this seems to be the > only serious study of girls' school books. > Not true, there is a very good study of Angela Brazil called *You're a brick Angela!* can't think of the author tho'. Farah > > Auchmuty, Rosemary > TITLE: The world of girls / Rosemary Auchmuty. > FORMAT: > IMPRINT: London, Women's Press, 1992 > SIZE: x, 244 p > NOTES: Cover title : A world of girls. > SUBJECT1: Oxenham, Elsie Jeanette--Criticism and interpretation > SUBJECT2: Bruce, Dorita Fairlie--Criticism and interpretation > SUBJECT3: Brent-Dyer, Elinor M.--Criticism and interpretation > SUBJECT4: Blyton, Enid--Criticism and interpretation > SUBJECT5: Women in literature > SUBJECT6: Boarding schools in literature > > > Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:47:47 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: great kids fantasy/sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 May 1997 10:17:42 -0500 Liz Henry wrote: > > There is a heck of a lot of better stuff than Lloyd > Alexander. > > SF: > > Monica Hughes - An Invitation to the Game ***** > Diana Wynne Jones -- Time City > H.M. Hoover - Children of Morrow, The Delikon, Another Heaven, Another > Earth ***** > Nancy Farmer - The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm > Margaret Mahy - lots > Peter Dickinson - Eva, the Changes Trilogy, Bone from a Dry Sea ***** > Pamela Sargent - Earthseed series, Alien Child > > > Fantasy: > > Diana Wynne Jones - Howl's Moving Castle is especially cool. Lots of witch > books. > Patricia C. Wrede - Dealing with Dragons, and more in "Dragons" series > Suzy McKee Charnas - The Bronze King, The Silver Glove, The Golden Thread > Andre Norton - tons of stuff, just browse for the ones with female characters... > > > > Liz Henry > ehenry@vertex.ucls.uchicago.edu I love your all the people on your list, but Lloyd Alexander's The High King made me cry... Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:49:12 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: great kids fantasy/sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 May 1997 10:17:42 -0500 Liz Henry wrote: > Andre Norton - tons of stuff, just browse for the ones with female characters... > > > I like Andre Norton, but as a kid did *not* like her female characters. I think it is a mistake to think that girls cannot or should not identify with boys and male characters, I certainly did. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:25:08 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: reproduction and childrearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 May 1997 10:05:56 -0400 Tanya Wood wrote: > You might try Dorothy Byrant's "The Kin of Alta are Waiting for You" which > I think recognised two sexes, but I can't remember whether technology was > involved in reproduction (actually, I don't think so). A rather poor book which doesn't deal with reproduction and in fact spends most of its time evading having to solve problems. The only bit that I thought really interesting was the idea of a culture in which you did not feed yourself, but only others. In this way, greed was avoided and there was always enough food. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:28:07 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 May 1997 11:17:04 -0400 Anastasia McPherson wrote: > How about Podkayne of Mars by Heinlein? My grandfather gavie it to me > when I was about 10 - I didnt realize how sexist it was at the time but I > still loved it. > > Tasia I never really got grabbed by this book, I am not sure why as I love almost all Heinlein ever wrote. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: reproduction and childrearing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I missed some of this thread because my computer was in the hospital having heart surgery following a near-fatal viral infection, but has anyone mentioned Slonczewski's Daughter of Elysium in conjunction with this topic? I'm particularly fond of it because of its portrayal of a culture where no one man is considered properly dressed unless he's got a baby on his back, an experience I went through myself a few years back. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:38:08 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:53 -0400 David Silver wrote: I may be behind on reading the mailings at the moment, but nobody seems to have stated the obvious about Trouble and Her Friends. It is a novel about marginality and some of that marginality is sexual. I liked it because it is a lesbian novel (and one that doesn't waste time talking about coming out). Tackle this head on, not as a side issue. BTW, do you include Storm Constantine? Her stuff disturbs me but it contrasts well with Gibson. I think the novel will work but my one word of warning is that whilst my students have struggled with the more difficult sf texts we did this term, it remains the case that Delany's Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones, which they really had trouble with, produced one of the best seminars, whereas Gibson's Johnny Mnemonic, which they could follow easily, bombed. Farah ps. at last, a groups of students who don't think Gibson is great! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:45:05 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: First SF-Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 May 1997 10:41:38 GMT+100 Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > My first sf book was also my first feminist sf book: The Left Hand of > Darkness (LHOD). At 16 a (male) friend of mine lent it to me. The > actual story I did not find so interesting but I was thrilled by the > concept of people with no/two sexes and what consequences that had > for the society. I tried to find similar books, i.e. science > fictions/utopias exploring gender issues - without much success > (that was 15 years ago). I read other books by Le Guin, interesting > but they do not meet that criteria (IMHO). Have you read Gerd Brantenburg, The Daughters of Egalia (or Egalia's Daughters)? It may be available in a German translation as the author is Danish I think. Not a great literary work, but quite superb in its biting analysis of gender. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:50:19 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: First SF-Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 May 1997 08:15:46 -0400 sue hagedorn wrote: > > Once I discovered Heinlein's juveniles, though, I was thoroughly hooked. > Yes, even though the "hero" was almost always male, they were good stories > of adventure and courage. As I read, I usually consciously just changed the > sexes around! Even today, DECADES later, in times of extreme stress my > "comfort" books are Citizen of the Galaxy or Tunnels in the Sky. I don't > know that today, though, I'd recommend starting a young girl out on > them--there's so much available now with intelligent heroines!- My problem with this is that of the many novels with girls as heroes I have read, there are remarkably few where the girls are free from gender in quite the same way that boys are allowed to be. To hark back to an earlier off subect angle, this is why the girl stories from the 30s were so good. The type of childhood they wrote about was one in which girls were to be asexual. This doesn't seem to be allowed anymore. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:17:44 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII re sf stories and weight. I too cannot think of any literature, but the British comic 2000AD ran a Judge Dredd sequence about people so large they needed belly wheels. In a post-nuclear holocaust world they were persecuted until they turned to staging eating contests at which "thins" were spectators. What they ate was junk - old cars and and such. For those of you who only know Judge Dredd through the appalling film, 2000AD was and is a very subversive comic. JD was a part of this subversion. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:21:28 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Just had a thought about "weight" stories. Maybe someone can help out as I can remember neither title nor author (as usual). There are a series of stories about a world in which a perfect form of power is invented. The inventor (Amalfi?) is cheated of his profits but dies with a smile on his face. The rest of the stories are about how the world adapts to the sudden availability of limitless power. In one story we see how the poor are forced to consume, living in mansions and wearing many clothes, eating as much as they can to keep the economy "growing". Only the rich get to avoid mass consumption. In the following story after the problem of overproduction is resolved, we meet a man so traumatised by his childhood poverty and the pressure to consume that despite the end of this need he cannot stop himself. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:00:21 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: Mushrooms no more MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Thanks, Susan! It's never too late to catch up on my childhood reading. Edrie On Fri, 23 May 1997 02:10:49 -0700 Susan Armstrong wrote: > From: Susan Armstrong > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:10:49 -0700 > Subject: Mushrooms no more > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > At www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/authorsC.html#EBCameron > there is, unfortunately, a notice of the death of Eleanor Butler Cameron (23 > Mar 1912 - 11 Oct 1996), author of the Mushroom Planet books. The notice > lists: > > "Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet" (Boston: Little Brown, > 1954), "Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet" (Boston: Little Brown, > 1956), "Mr.Bass' Planetoid" (Boston: Little Brown, 1958), > "Mystery for Mr.Bass" (Boston: Little Brown, 1960), "Time and Mr.Bass" > (Boston: Little Brown, 1967). > > -- Susan > > Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:03:43 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: Mushroom Planet (Re: First SF Book) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997 00:33:28 -0700 Susan Armstrong wrote: > You sound like someone in serious need. :-) And how!! Either that or someone with way too much boring work to do!! But even if the 'Shroom books are out of print, > you can probably find copies by checking some used SF book dealers' sites on > the WWW. (E-mail me if you want some URLs.) > Thanks a million, I'll poke around the web and see what I can find; I always did wonder about the "solution" to the mushroom planet's "problem", though -- there was no rooster, so how did they plan to keep the egg supply intact? edrie (displaced Canadian living and working in Texas, btw!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:15:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Actually I did send a personal message to David about issues of queer identity in Trouble, which I guess I should have posted, even though it repeated some things I had praised the book for previously. I will copy it to the list. Re Storm Constantine: I was both fascinated and repelled by the Wraethru series. The portrayals of both men and women were offensive to me (the few women in it). And the sexual violence of the gay male tribes. In both this series and the monstrous "Monstrous Regiment" she writes about interesting subjects but then seems to have a limited social imagination, unable to escape offensive stereotypes. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn On Fri, 23 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:53 -0400 David Silver wrote: > I may be behind on reading the mailings at the moment, but nobody > seems to have stated the obvious about Trouble and Her Friends. It > is a novel about marginality and some of that marginality is sexual. I > liked it because it is a lesbian novel (and one that doesn't waste time > talking about coming out). Tackle this head on, not as a side issue. > BTW, do you include Storm Constantine? Her stuff disturbs me but it > contrasts well with Gibson. > > I think the novel will work but my one word of warning is that whilst > my students have struggled with the more difficult sf texts we did this > term, it remains the case that Delany's Time Considered as a Helix > of Semi-Precious Stones, which they really had trouble with, > produced one of the best seminars, whereas Gibson's Johnny > Mnemonic, which they could follow easily, bombed. > Farah > ps. at last, a groups of students who don't think Gibson is great! > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:17:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:10:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Gordon To: David Silver Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? David, I have a few thoughts about Trouble and her friends, one of my favourite books. As a lesbian I was particularly interested in the queer community in which Trouble moves. Much science fiction imagines a future free of identity politics (star trek the worst example), or where only one identity issue is the central focus of all conflict (a lot of feminist sf interested in the war between the sexes). In Trouble, the traditional rebel-hacker-as-hero of cyberpunk has an extra spin, not only is she a lesbian but her friends are queers too, and this is socially meaningfull to them. As an oppressed minority, even within the hacker subculture, they band together as a chosen family. Scott combines the 'otherness' of queerness with the 'otherness' of young hacker culture in a way that speaks true about a lot of fringe street culture today. Of course on an even more basic level, it's incredibly radical for Scott to make the central character an out lesbian. This is still incredibly rare. And she portrays both 'realtime' and cyber lesbian sex. And nothing about it feels as if it was written as straight male porn, the way too much lesbian sex in popular culture comes off. The female characters are central, tough, smart, inventive, complex, and queer. What more could I want! I'm sure others will have other comments on different feminist elements of the book, but this is the one closest to my heart. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:45:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Farah: I'm not sure if this is the story you are referring to, but there is one with a similar situation but a creative solution in the "Nine Tomorrows" anthology. IIRC, robots are the source of the abundence. I'd be more specific, but my copy seems to have finally expired from age. Come to think of it, it certainly was one of my earliest SF exposures, but probably not my first. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:49:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Nalo's story In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > > Add my congratulations. And should one assume this is a "Little Red Riding > Hood" variation? > > > Maryelizabeth NH: Thank you. And yes, 'tis. Though I have mixed feelings about that being made clear up front. (The _Snow White, Blood Red_ series has been a favourite of mine for some time, and I've taken to reading the story before the blurb that preceeds it; I guess I just take a bit of pleasure in trying to figure out for myself what the base story is.) -nalo "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:55:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Storm Constantine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Farah, I'd be interested in knowing why Storm Constantine's work bothers you. I sucked up the Wraetthu trilogy as fast as she could publish it, and for a while there, would automatically buy any book of hers that I found on the shelves, but now find that I'm sort of mulling her work over, and haven't come to any real conclusions. I did read a short story of hers in an antho called, I think, _Cybersex,_ that I found disturbing (the story, not the antho). The story was called "Kiss Booties Night-Night," and without ruining it for anyone, I wasn't sure what I was supposed to come away with, other than the compellingly violent image that ends the story off. -nalo "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:01:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's not really sf, or only rarely, but the comic "Love and Rockets" by the Hernandez brothers has a main female character who goes from thin to stocky throughout the course of the series, and I loved the running sub-plot of her dealing with that. What I really liked was how often it wasn't an issue at all, contrasted with the times that it has a negative impact on her life. -nalo "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:26:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Nalo's story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Thank you. And yes, 'tis. {Little Red Riding hood} Though I have >mixed feelings about that >being made clear up front. (The _Snow White, Blood Red_ series has been >a favourite of mine for some time, and I've taken to reading the story >before the blurb that preceeds it; I guess I just take a bit of pleasure >in trying to figure out for myself what the base story is.) You're not alone in that feeling. Several readers have made that comment to me, including when we did the first collection for our book discussion group. I wonder, has anyone suggested that they move the blurbs to the end of the stories? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: body size issues In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I remember one of the stories inthe original Women of Wonder collection deals with weight issues. Is this Food Farm that someone already mentioned? can't seem to find my copy... darn. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:10:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:21 PM 5/23/97 BST, farah mendlesohn wrote: >Just had a thought about "weight" stories. Maybe someone can help >out as I can remember neither title nor author (as usual). There are a >series of stories about a world in which a perfect form of power is >invented. The inventor (Amalfi?) is cheated of his profits but dies with >a smile on his face. The rest of the stories are about how the world >adapts to the sudden availability of limitless power. In one story we >see how the poor are forced to consume, living in mansions and >wearing many clothes, eating as much as they can to keep the >economy "growing". Only the rich get to avoid mass consumption. In >the following story after the problem of overproduction is resolved, >we meet a man so traumatised by his childhood poverty and the >pressure to consume that despite the end of this need he cannot stop >himself. "The Man Who Ate The World", Fred Pohl Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Storm Constantine In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robin Gordon wrote: >Re Storm Constantine: I was both fascinated and repelled by the Wraethru >series. The portrayals of both men and women were offensive to me (the >few women in it). And the sexual violence of the gay male tribes. In >both this series and the monstrous "Monstrous Regiment" she writes about >interesting subjects but then seems to have a limited social imagination, >unable to escape offensive stereotypes. Sorry, for me the Wraethu stuff typifies the category of "I'm incredibly hip & cool, and sci fi is cool, so I'll write some sci fi. Who needs to *know* anything?" As science fiction, the first book (all I read) was pathetic; as fantasy, inadequately developed; as adolescent wish-fulfillment, lame. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:34:22 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Fat SF Hi, again. Jack Vance wrote a wonderful story, "Abercrombie Station," about a space station where everyone -- owners, visitors, and staff -- is obese, with many lyrical descriptions of the gentle, spherical shapes that fat people take on in zero gravity... the protagonist is a thin, ruthless girl recruited to seduce the owner of Abercrombie Station, who is known to have a thing for freaks... Great story with a tough sympathetic female lead (unlike some of Vance's stories!) This story was also published in a Asimov and Greenberg anthology, _THe Science Fiction Weight Loss Book_, which is presumably chock-full of stories about obesity (even though no one in story has any desire to lose weight!) You might also show them the Williamsdorf Venus (spelling?), the original "Earth Mother," and point out that through most of human life on Earth, a fat person would have been a thing of wonder... I know that until contact and colonization here in Hawaii, the only fat people were the chiefs and their wives, and fatness was greatly admired. Technological civilization, and the millenia-long drop in food prices that accompanied it, are responsible for making fatness an option for everybody in the developed world and thus making *thinness* the marker for high status... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:39:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Storm Constantine In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970523151637.0069abd4@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Robin Gordon wrote: > >both this series and the monstrous "Monstrous Regiment" she writes about > >interesting subjects but then seems to have a limited social imagination, > >unable to escape offensive stereotypes. And Neil Rest wrote: > *know* anything?" As science fiction, the first book (all I read) was > pathetic; as fantasy, inadequately developed; as adolescent > wish-fulfillment, lame. NH: :) Ah, well. I've learned not to make any claims to having taste (though I was unable to finish _Monstrous Regiment._ My interest just petered out early on). If I want to put a positive spin on it, I can claim to be an 'omnivorous' reader. But that's not entirely true, either. Looking forward to hearing what Farah thinks of Constantine. -nalo "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:45:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: body size issues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I remember one of the stories inthe original Women of Wonder collection >deals with weight issues. Is this Food Farm that someone already >mentioned? can't seem to find my copy... darn. > > >Robin Gordon > >-------------------------------------- >"I am the wall with the womanly swagger." >Judy Grahn Yep, "The Food Farm" is in WoW. I still have that one -- even tho' it went for a swim in the bathtub! :) Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:50:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: "Snow White, Blood Red" series In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > group. I wonder, has anyone suggested that they move the blurbs to the end > of the stories? NH: An afterword instead of a foreword. I don't know if anyone's mentioned it to them. -nalo "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:18:25 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: reproduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just read an interesting new novel on reproduction rights. _The Misconceiver_ by Lucy Ferriss. Inevitable to be compared to _The Haidmaid's Tale_. Well done, I thought, with the protagonist a dedicated but not political misconceiver (the term for abortionist, now that abortion and contraception and most of women's reproductive rights are gone). The sad thing about this book is that it probably will be missed by its most important audience -- young women who grew up with legal abortion and other rights, and don't understand how tenuous those rights may be. Need some rumination time, but if I do a full review, I'll post it if there is interest. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:03:17 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Egalia's Daughters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Excuse my correcting your spelling, but the author's name is Brantenberg with an e not a u. It was published in the late 70's and yes it's Danish. I'm certain there's a German translation of it. Bi >Have you read Gerd Brantenburg, The Daughters of Egalia (or >Egalia's Daughters)? It may be available in a German translation as >the author is Danish I think. Not a great literary work, but quite superb >in its biting analysis of gender. > >Farah Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:14:12 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: Fat SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > You might also show them the Williamsdorf Venus (spelling?), the >original "Earth Mother," and point out that through most of human life on >Earth, a fat person would have been a thing of wonder... The Willendorf Venus says the art historian pedantically. Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:15:41 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Please, help for an Almost Dead White Male? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997 14:15:10 -0400 Robin Gordon wrote: > Re Storm Constantine: I was both fascinated and repelled by the Wraethru > series. The portrayals of both men and women were offensive to me (the > few women in it). And the sexual violence of the gay male tribes. In > both this series and the monstrous "Monstrous Regiment" she writes about > interesting subjects but then seems to have a limited social imagination, > unable to escape offensive stereotypes. > > Robin Gordon I do not much like Storm Constantine either, I find her writing repellent, but it is repellent in a peculiarly fascinating way. Why? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:21:10 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997 11:45:29 -0700 Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Farah: > > I'm not sure if this is the story you are referring to, but there is one > with a similar situation but a creative solution in the "Nine Tomorrows" > anthology. IIRC, robots are the source of the abundence. I am pretty sure this is one of the stories in the fix-up. A poor man desperate to placate his rich wife, who cannot cope with the requirement to consume so much, sets up his robots to do the consumption, terrified he will be found out. When he is, he is turned into a hero for solving the problem of over-production. In the last story in the fix-up, only robots are left on the earth, living essentially as human beings. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:24:51 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Storm Constantine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997 14:55:38 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > Farah, I'd be interested in knowing why Storm Constantine's work bothers > you. I read the Wraethu series with fascination, but found it disturbingly misogynistic and very insistent that pain equals pleasure. Now the latter may be true (and I have shared such feelings) but I have never felt that this would be a healthy route to go. Monstrous Regiment seemed to go further down the same track. It really disturbed me that a female writer could apparently get such pleasure writing about the torture of women... and note, it wasn't so much that she wrote about it (I'm not that squeamish) as that it did seem to have a note of pleasure about it. For me that is the dividing line between erotica and pornography. Tricky, but we are rather short of a vocabularly to deal with this sort of writing which emerges from a feminist vocabularly. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:25:57 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: heavy/thin/different ideals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997 15:10:12 -0500 Neil Rest wrote: > > "The Man Who Ate The World", Fred Pohl > > > Neil Rest Thanks, do you know off hand which fix-up its part of? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:32:41 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Fat SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997 11:34:22 -1000 Daniel L Krashin wrote: through most of human life on > Earth, a fat person would have been a thing of wonder... I know that until > contact and colonization here in Hawaii, the only fat people were the chiefs > and their wives, and fatness was greatly admired. Technological > civilization, and the millenia-long drop in food prices that accompanied it, > are responsible for making fatness an option for everybody in the developed > world and thus making *thinness* the marker for high status... In much of the world fatness is still a way of identifying the wealthy. It means (sorry) that they are Americans. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:35:41 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: reproduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997 15:18:25 -0700 Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > From: Maryelizabeth Hart > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:18:25 -0700 > Subject: Re: reproduction > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Just read an interesting new novel on reproduction rights. _The > Misconceiver_ by Lucy Ferriss. > Need some rumination time, but if I do a full review, I'll post it if there > is interest. > > Please do post a review. Living in the UK, we have to order US books specially and recommendations are useful. Farah. ps. If anybody ever needs books printed in England, I am willing to do book swaps. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:37:10 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Egalia's Daughters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sat, 24 May 1997 11:03:17 +0100 Britt-Inger Johansson wrote: > > Excuse my correcting your spelling, but the author's name is Brantenberg > with an e not a u. It was published in the late 70's and yes it's Danish. > I'm certain there's a German translation of it. > > Bi > Dear Bi, don't worry about correcting me. I am in York and my library is 200 miles away in Reading si its actually helpful of you. Did you like the book? I thought it was fantastic when I read it at the age of 18. Such a *thorough* book. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:32:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Fat SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >In much of the world fatness is still a way of identifying the wealthy. It >means (sorry) that they are Americans. > >Farah Farah, No offense taken, but...huh? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:12:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Fat SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: The equation of thinness with beauty is a particularly American thing. It's now becoming pervasive world over because most of the world has tv's and Hollywood gets everywhere. As someone on this post said, historically, and still in most of the rest of the world, being fat means that you have the money to purchase enough to eat--it's a positive thing. It's been inverted in North America though, which is one of (if not the?) richest countries in the world, with an economy centred around mass production, even mass production of food. (I once read that in North America, it used to be that most people did enough physical labour in the course of each day to maintain a basic level of fitness. Now, almost no-one does. So it's not just food, it's that we now do far less labour.) In America, it's possible to be quite poor and still be fat. So having the time and the resources to work at being thin has become the ideal of beauty. -nalo On Sun, 25 May 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > > > >In much of the world fatness is still a way of identifying the wealthy. It > >means (sorry) that they are Americans. > > > >Farah > > Farah, > No offense taken, but...huh? > > -Sean > "I recommend biting off more than you can chew, To anyone." -Alanis Morissette ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:23:43 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: Egalia's Daughters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" With a blush covering my face I must confess I haven't read it, just read about it. It was first published in Swedish translation when I was round 16-17 and at that time my feministside were still slumbering. But one day I will come across it again I trust.... Bi >Dear Bi, > >don't worry about correcting me. I am in York and my library is 200 >miles away in Reading si its actually helpful of you. Did you like the >book? I thought it was fantastic when I read it at the age of 18. Such a >*thorough* book. > >Farah Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:22:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Williams Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 22 May 1997 to 23 May 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" frederick pohl also wrote the space merchants. in which the revolutionary cell meets under a gigantic bioengineered mass of chicken breast which everyone carves at to eat. :-) At 06:21 PM 5/23/97 BST, farah mendlesohn wrote: >Just had a thought about "weight" stories. Maybe someone can help >out as I can remember neither title nor author (as usual). There are a >series of stories about a world in which a perfect form of power is >invented. The inventor (Amalfi?) is cheated of his profits but dies with >a smile on his face. The rest of the stories are about how the world >adapts to the sudden availability of limitless power. In one story we >see how the poor are forced to consume, living in mansions and >wearing many clothes, eating as much as they can to keep the >economy "growing". Only the rich get to avoid mass consumption. In >the following story after the problem of overproduction is resolved, >we meet a man so traumatised by his childhood poverty and the >pressure to consume that despite the end of this need he cannot stop >himself. "The Man Who Ate The World", Fred Pohl Neil Rest --- Kate Williams University of Toledo Community and Technical College Project Coordinator, Toledo Technology Academy kwillia8@uoft02.utoledo.edu (419) 389-5033 fax (419) 389-0434 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:50:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tara Ayres Subject: Re: reproduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC69BA.9F3DEB00" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC69BA.9F3DEB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Farah, I'm looking for the new Onlywoman Press book of essays on lesbian = ethics, which isn't available in the States (I'm trying to unearth the = brochure in my office, which is still disorganized from my recent move, = so I can't give you the name yet.) Anyway, I'd love to do a swap if = there are books you want from here. I also get a 10% discount at the = local feminist bookstore, which would help with shipping. Let me know = if you're interested. Tara ---------- From: farah mendlesohn[SMTP:fm7@YORK.AC.UK] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 1997 9:35 AM To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Subject: Re: reproduction On Fri, 23 May 1997 15:18:25 -0700 Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > From: Maryelizabeth Hart > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:18:25 -0700 > Subject: Re: reproduction > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Just read an interesting new novel on reproduction rights. _The > Misconceiver_ by Lucy Ferriss. > Need some rumination time, but if I do a full review, I'll post it if there > is interest. > > Please do post a review. Living in the UK, we have to order US books specially and recommendations are useful. Farah. ps. 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I'll lend it to you if you want! Edward James ............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:31:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: humor (sorta) forward Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Forwarded from a joke group: _________________________________________ Subject: FUN: Newt & the Giraffe (**) A quote from Newt Gingrich: "If combat means living in a ditch, females have biological problems staying in a ditch for thirty days because they get infections and they don't have upper body strength. I mean, some do, but they're relatively rare. On the other hand, men are basically little piglets, you drop them in the ditch, they roll around in it, doesn't matter, you know. These things are very real. On the other hand, if combat means being on an Aegis-class cruiser managing the computer controls for twelve ships and their rockets, a female may be again dramatically better than a male who gets very, very frustrated sitting in a chair all the time because males are biologically driven to go out and hunt giraffes." _____________________________________________________ hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:58:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: humor (sorta) forward In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970527144911.3cef0726@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII *Please* tell me that's a parody. -nalo "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:23:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jeanine Pedersen Subject: Re: humor (sorta) forward Doesn't anybody read news papers? Gingrich made that statement several years ago. It isn't any different than the rest of the liturgy the Christian right has been spouting for ages. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:40:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Your first SF/F Novel In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 23 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 1997 11:17:04 -0400 Anastasia McPherson wrote: > > > How about Podkayne of Mars by Heinlein? My grandfather gavie it > to me > > when I was about 10 - I didnt realize how sexist it was at the time > but I > > still loved it. > > > > Tasia > > > I never really got grabbed by this book, I am not sure why as I love > almost all Heinlein ever wrote. Farah > I think this was the first one for me also, my sister gave it to me when I ran out of mythology books to read at the library. Obviously I liked it, becuase I proceeded to read everything by Heinlein I could find, then I discovered there were other authors. I was pretty much oblivious to a character's gender at the time but now I tend to think of Heinlein as a man of his time. He came to adulthood in the 20's, when you look at it that way, his attitudes towards women were way ahead of his time. There are those who seem to think of him as a larger than life figure and then get disappointed to find out that he wasn't right about everything. ~ Denise M. Borgen ~ If man is only a little lower ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ than the angels, then the ~ ~ ~ angels should reform ~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:29:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: humor (sorta) forward In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >*Please* tell me that's a parody. > >-nalo Nalo, Nope. I think not. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:31:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: humor (sorta) forward In-Reply-To: <970527172218_-196052726@emout03.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Doesn't anybody read news papers? Gingrich made that statement several years >ago. It isn't any different than the rest of the liturgy the Christian right >has been spouting for ages. And I'm just finding out about it now? Boy, do I feel out of touch. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:10:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: ...fix-ups? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Thanks, do you know off hand which fix-up its part of? >> >> Farah >> > >It isn't part of a fix-up ummmm.......pardon my ignorance, but... whazzat? -- Susan Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:23:04 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: ...fix-ups? In-Reply-To: <05101789001548@mortimer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Tue, 27 May 1997, Susan Armstrong wrote: > >> Thanks, do you know off hand which fix-up its part of? > >> > >> Farah > >> > > > >It isn't part of a fix-up > > ummmm.......pardon my ignorance, but... whazzat? > > -- Susan > > Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com > It's a term invented by A.E. Van Vogt, to describe the sort of thing that his _The Voyage of the Space Beagle_ was: a collection of short stories, usually published separately in the sf magazines, which were linked together by chractrer and theme, and which were subsequently put together (with a bit of inter-story stitching) into what purported to be a novel, i.e. into what was sold by the publishers as a novel, but which was _really_ a linked collection of stories. It was quite common in the 1950s, when the new paperback publishers were putting together books from the stories that had been published in the sf mags in the 1940s; it hardly exists now, since the short-story market has declined so much. Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:50:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: humor (sorta) forward In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: I don't feel out of touch, just Canadian. Got our own revisionist, reactionary politicians to worry about. -nalo On Tue, 27 May 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >Doesn't anybody read news papers? Gingrich made that statement several years > >ago. It isn't any different than the rest of the liturgy the Christian right > >has been spouting for ages. > > And I'm just finding out about it now? Boy, do I feel out of touch. > > -Sean > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:39:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: New PKD List (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's not feminist, of course, but if you're interested in serious discussions ... Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:28:48 -0400 From: Eric Johnson Reply-To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT Subject: New PKD List For any of you who might be interested in discussing the life and works of Philip K. Dick and other things phildickian, there is a new discussion list devoted to PKD. To subscribe, please send a message to: pkd-request@lists.best.com Leave the subject field blank and type the word SUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. You will then get a confirmation message which you will need to respond to by following a few simple instructions. If you have any friends out there who are PKD fans, please let them know about this new list. Thanks. EAJ *------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Eric A. Johnson | *OPINIONS MINE* | | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS) | | | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction | Voice: (202) 707-9498 | | Exchange & Gift Division | FAX: (202) 707-2086 | | Library of Congress | | | 101 Independence Avenue, S.E. | Email: eaj@loc.gov | | Washington, DC 20540-4240 USA | | *------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Please send any non-work related email to me at: saaremaa@erols.com | *------------------------------------------------------------------------* "It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." Repo Man, Fragment 64 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:40:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Nalo's story Comments: cc: bl213@freenet.toronto.ont.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: EllenDat@aol.com >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:54:11 -0400 (EDT) >To: mystgalaxy@ax.com >Subject: Re: Nalo's story > [In response to a note from me about the introductory notes and the references to the fairy tale being retold] Ellen Datlow wrote: >I've forwarded your note to Terri Windling and to our editor to see what they >think about the suggestion to put the introductory notes as an afterword >rather than at the beginning of each story. >We'll see. >Thanks for the feedback. >Ellen Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:23:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Genderless women and non-sexual lesbians In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Why aren't there genderless women anymore? you ask. I think that you will find that genderless women and non-sexual lesbians have fell by the wayside for a very important reason. Most of the "bad guys" (the sexist, anti-gay people :) (probably some of the "good guys" too) have ignored the sex and/or sexual orientation of characters when it wasn't shoved in their face. Melissa Scott said at WisCon this year that she had consiously added sex (lesbian sex) to her stories so that readers couldn't ignore the sexuality of her characters. Apparently it is not enough to say that a character is a lesbian (or a woman). The fact must be driven home with sex and/or gendered female characters. Note that the non-gendered, non-sexual characters may be better for we, the chosen, or coverted ones :) However I think we are seeing a complex compromise of writers and readers. -- Joel VanLaven On Fri, 23 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 1997 08:15:46 -0400 sue hagedorn wrote: > > > > > Once I discovered Heinlein's juveniles, though, I was thoroughly > hooked. > > Yes, even though the "hero" was almost always male, they were > good stories > > of adventure and courage. As I read, I usually consciously just > changed the > > sexes around! Even today, DECADES later, in times of extreme > stress my > > "comfort" books are Citizen of the Galaxy or Tunnels in the Sky. I > don't > > know that today, though, I'd recommend starting a young girl out on > > them--there's so much available now with intelligent heroines!- > > > My problem with this is that of the many novels with girls as heroes I > have read, there are remarkably few where the girls are free from > gender in quite the same way that boys are allowed to be. To hark > back to an earlier off subect angle, this is why the girl stories from > the 30s were so good. The type of childhood they wrote about was > one in which girls were to be asexual. This doesn't seem to be > allowed anymore. > > Farah > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Nalo's story In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Cool. We'll see what happens. -nalo On Wed, 28 May 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > >From: EllenDat@aol.com > >Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:54:11 -0400 (EDT) > >To: mystgalaxy@ax.com > >Subject: Re: Nalo's story > > > [In response to a note from me about the introductory notes and the > references to the fairy tale being retold] Ellen Datlow wrote: > > >I've forwarded your note to Terri Windling and to our editor to see what they > >think about the suggestion to put the introductory notes as an afterword > >rather than at the beginning of each story. > >We'll see. > >Thanks for the feedback. > >Ellen > > > > Maryelizabeth > Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 > 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 > San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX > http://www.mystgalaxy.com > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:56:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Genderless women and non-sexual lesbians In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 28 May 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > Why aren't there genderless women anymore? you ask. I think that you > will find that genderless women and non-sexual lesbians have fell by the > wayside for a very important reason. > > Most of the "bad guys" (the sexist, anti-gay people :) (probably some > of the "good guys" too) have ignored the sex and/or sexual orientation of > characters when it wasn't shoved in their face. > > On Fri, 23 May 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > the 30s were so good. The type of childhood they wrote about was > > one in which girls were to be asexual. This doesn't seem to be > > allowed anymore. > > > > Farah > Joel, you message seems a bit confused, because, I think, of the unclear use of the words "gender" and "sex" and "sexual." While gender is frequently confused for sex, it is generally accepted by feminists that gender refers to socially constructed roles, i.e. masculine, feminine and androgynous, whereas sex is physiological, i.e. male, female, hermaphrodite. I don't mean to suggest that either of these categories can or should be limited to the three examples I have provided. While feminists generally agree that the dichotomous gender system of feminine and masculine is a major element of women's oppression, opinions vary on what to do. Some seek to widen the categories and make them looser, other to add additional genders and allow for choice between them regardless of physiological sex, and others to reject the idea of a system of genders where character traits are grouped together into bundles. The north american lesbian community has been through a maze of approaches to gender. Some lesbians (few) do not challenge the system of genders, and see themselves as feminine, some feel themselves to be masculine, which may or may not be equated by the lesbians involved as the same as butch/femme, though many lesbians involved in butch/femme idntifications see this as something quite apart from merely a mirror of masc./fem. hetero roles. Many lesbians embrach androgyny, others reject genders altogether, and some play with the idea of gender in a fluid way. Being a lesbian is a sexual orientation, and can be accompanied by any gender or none at all. With reference to science fiction, these distinctions show the endless possibilities for imagining differences from our own culture, and the ways in which characters can be constructed. I've just recently read Melissa Scott's Shadow Man which is a fascinating exploration of the clash between two human societies, both of which have five sexes. While one society clings to a social system of two genders and one acceptable sexual orientation, hetero, the other has a complex system of nine sexual orientations. But even in this socially complicated book, I didn't feel that Scott had completely let go of some ingrained assumptions about the connections between sex, gender, and sexuality. Of course within our society, as within every culture, links are made between sex and gender and sexuality, but I maintain that there is no necessary link between them. The associations are, like gender, socially constructed (ok, ok, so I'm an old fashioned social constructionist, it's not the worst thing I've been called). Re children's sf, I was certainly always attracted to characters, both male and female but particularly female, that transgressed socially approved gender roles. Certainly it is far more common to see female characters outside conscripted gender roles than men. Because inappropriate gender behaviour is taken in our society as a sign of sexual deviance, it is received very negatively. Particularly for men. The ways in which women are desexed, all women but particularly lesbians, have opened up some room for girls and women, but particularly girls, to be non-feminine without instantly raising the spectre of sexual deviance. This has both positive and negative aspects. While it may help combat the training of girls to be feminine, it also helps perpetuate the invisibility of lesbians. Scott is certainly right when she says that without explicit sexual content, characters coded as lesbian will not be SEEN to be lesbian. Items meant to code a character as lesbian will be read as gender deviations, not as gender and sexual orientation signals. This is true for many of us in real life as well. I purposefully code my appearance as lesbian, but still am constantly confronted by the assumption that I am straight. This creates a constant need to explicitly out myself. And then as lesbians become more visible as sexual beings, there is in some quarters a backlash against non-feminine girls. As fear of lesbianism grows, girls and girl characters have to be more explicitly coded as heterosexual, which is all wrapped up with feminininity of course. I think this has a lot to do with what's going on in children's literature, as well as the backlash against feminism generally. I suppose I should stop rambling now.. Robin Gordon ********************** Resistance is fruitful. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:32:32 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Genderless women and non-sexual lesbians In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 28 May 1997, Robin Gordon wrote: [snipped my message] > Joel, you message seems a bit confused, because, I think, of the unclear > use of the words "gender" and "sex" and "sexual." > > While gender is frequently confused for sex, it is generally accepted by > feminists that gender refers to socially constructed roles, i.e. > masculine, feminine and androgynous, whereas sex is physiological, i.e. > male, female, hermaphrodite. I don't mean to suggest that either of these > categories can or should be limited to the three examples I have provided. Yes, I also use(d) those definitions. I am quite sure :) that I forgot to define my terms in advance (and relied on the definitions too much). The other confusion that I unfortuneatly added was the whole "sex" (the activity) versus "sex" (a distinction between humans) thing. I used that word and/or it's derivitives in both ways. Sorry for the confusion. [snipped some good stuff about gender wrt feminism and lesbian(s/ism)] > Being a lesbian is a sexual orientation, and can be accompanied by any > gender or none at all. Yup. I agree. I am sorry for possibly confusing this fact. I meant for "genderless women" and "non-sexual lesbians" to be taken as different examples of the same thing. I had just heard and thought about "invisible lesbians" a lot and was trying to apply some of the same principles to the idea of "genderless women." I should have been more explicit. I think that this sort of thing is common all over the place. Wherever there is a normal and an other, that other will generally be linked with the traits that distinguish them (at least in the minds of normal normals). For example, I am a hetero-sexual man (well, it is the most accurate sexuality label floating around for me other than all-encompassing ones like Queer). Anyway, I intellectually supported sexuality rights (gay rights) but didn't have any homosexual friends (that I knew of). The GLBCA at my college said that they welcomed all comers, including freaks like me :). So, I worked up my nerve and attended a meeting. I remember not being able to keep from thinking about the people there in sexual terms and situations. In my mind, the people at that meeting were all about sex. I was embarrassed and uncomfortable because of how my unconscious mis-behaved. It took a while for the nether regions of my brain to think about them as normal human beings and as homosexual at the same time. [snipped cool stuff about sf, _Shadow Man_, sex, gender, and sexuality] > This has both positive and negative aspects. While it may help combat the > training of girls to be feminine, it also helps perpetuate the > invisibility of lesbians. > > Scott is certainly right when she says that without explicit sexual > content, characters coded as lesbian will not be SEEN to be lesbian. > Items meant to code a character as lesbian will be read as gender > deviations, not as gender and sexual orientation signals. She also said that women who are a couple will just be "good friends" unless they sleep with each other (explicitly). The assumption is that a man and woman couple are sleeping together, often even if they are only just possibly a "couple." > This is true for many of us in real life as well. I purposefully code my > appearance as lesbian, but still am constantly confronted by the > assumption that I am straight. This creates a constant need to explicitly > out myself. I have no idea what people assume I am. I guess my pride prompts me to assume that people assume that I am gay, if only because no women have asked me out and I have already graduated from college. On the other hand, I haven't been asked out by any men either, so there could be other factors at play there :) [snipped some more stuff] Wow, what a long (but good) message. Thanks for the insights. I think that for the most part I violently agree with you (though I am not a lesbian and so cannot speak with much authority on lesbianism). This is the sort of thing that would be great for a face to face conversation but really eats up time and energy for me in this format. Well, better than not having such discussions at all I suppose. -- Joel VanLaven