========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:00:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Meg's character (Wrinkle in Time, etc.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In the later books (those that I have read, far >from all) she is completely reduced to a generic mom character who gives >out hugs and brownies. Calvin, on the other hand, gets to stay somewhat >interesting. The message seems to me to be that it's okay to be a >nerdy girl, but you damn well better conform when you grow up. Anne replied: Either that's the message, or it is that the only choice for women when they reach adulthood is to be this sort of generic mom, regardless of how nerdy/intellectual/unfeminine they were in their reckless youth. I guess this means that until adulthood soon-to-be-women are "allowed" to behave in a less-than-feminine way, but once they become sexually active adults they must conform to a traditional role. My 2 cents: Ever read "Reviving Ophelia"? It was on the best-sellers list for a while. Fairly depressing, but it gives some insight into why Meg would have behaved so (were she a real person :) ). It presents case studies that basically covers what Anne wrote, although the authors claims are that the pressures to conform start in adolescence, about the time so many girls math scores drop and so many get eating disorders. Not a science fiction book, and I was depressed for a week after reading it, but fairly insightful, even though it seems to raise more questions than it answers. Back to lurking (and what they pay me to use this terminal for :) ) Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:51:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: All-Female Societies In-Reply-To: <199705311432.KAA20127@mercury> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:32 AM 31/5/97 -0400, you wrote: ... >interested in reading other novels or papers (not necessarily sci fi) >dealing with all-female societies. _The Shore of Women_ by Pamela Sargent. Howard Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services Montreal, Quebec, Canada alterego@rocler.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:34:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Meg's character (Wrinkle in Time, etc.) In-Reply-To: <19970530.194605.11934.2.avs5@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 30 May 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > >In the later books (those that I have read, far > >from all) she is completely reduced to a generic mom character who > gives > >out hugs and brownies. Calvin, on the other hand, gets to stay somewhat > >interesting. The message seems to me to be that it's okay to be a > >nerdy girl, but you damn well better conform when you grow up. > > Either that's the message, or it is that the only choice for women when > they reach adulthood is to be this sort of generic mom, regardless of how > nerdy/intellectual/unfeminine they were in their reckless youth. I guess > this means that until adulthood soon-to-be-women are "allowed" to behave > in a less-than-feminine way, but once they become sexually active adults > they must conform to a traditional role. Hmm. While the "romance" certainly seems to fall from Meg in the remaining books, especially with her cookie-cutter family life, I seem to remember allusions to the fact that she had another life outside of that family life. The thing is that we only see her from the perspective of her family who only see her in her role in their family. I get the feeling that in a way, the remaining stories could be seen as a comment on the way life hides the exciting parts of our mothers' lives from us. In that case It would be nice if there was a book dealing with meg more directly in her older life. There might be, but I haven't read it. On the other hand, LeGuin does seem to take hetero-sexual love, marraige, and parenthood as the be-all and end-all of human existance. It seems like that is the climax and resolution of all of her stories. Much of the conflict is dealing with not having that. Once that conflict is resolved, there isn't anything to write about. Of course I haven't read nearly all of her books either and am making wild leaps of conjecture, but somewhere in there those were the feelings I got. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:50:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: All-Female Societies In-Reply-To: <199705311432.KAA20127@mercury> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 31 May 1997, Pamela Bedore wrote: [snip] > I just read Leona Gom's -The Y Chromosome- and found it fascinating. I'm > interested in reading other novels or papers (not necessarily sci fi) > dealing with all-female societies. > > Any ideas? Don't forget Joan Slonckzewski's _A Door Into Ocean_ (I apologize if I misspelled her name) It is a far-future sci-fi novel about a struggle between a pacifist all-female society and a "normal" militaristic society like ours. I particulary liked the biological explanation of their reproduction. Also, Marion Zimmer Bradley's _The Firebrand_, a historical fantasy (like _The Mists of Avalon_) has a stretch among the Amazons, so if you read all of the others, you might try it. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:45:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Meg's character (Wrinkle in Time, etc.) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:34 AM 6/1/97 -0400, Joel VanLaven wrote: > On the other hand, LeGuin does seem to take hetero-sexual love, >marriage, and parenthood as the be-all and end-all of human existance. It >seems like that is the climax and resolution of all of her stories. Much >of the conflict is dealing with not having that. Once that conflict is >resolved, there isn't anything to write about. > > Of course I haven't read nearly all of her books either and am making >wild leaps of conjecture, but somewhere in there those were the feelings I >got. Eh? Did you just slip and write "LeGuin" instead of "L'Engle"? Wouldn't want to bother writing a rebuttal if it was just a typo. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Loop Guru, Duniya; Shonen Knife, Brand New Knife "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:30:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Meg's character (Wrinkle in Time, etc.) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601154517.006c21c4@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Janice E. Dawley wrote: [snipped my mistake] > Eh? Did you just slip and write "LeGuin" instead of "L'Engle"? Wouldn't > want to bother writing a rebuttal if it was just a typo. Yes, I most certainly did. Sorry, Sorry. Honest mistake. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:30:12 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: All-Female Societies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII For a look at something that was written nearly 100 years ago, Charlotte Perkins Gilman's _Herland_ is good, although it issometimes painfully dull and ham-fisted in its didacticism in places, with a racist eugenicsagenda that is not at all covert. Edrie Sobstyl Arts & Humanities University of Texas at Dallas On Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:50:04 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: > From: Joel VanLaven > Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:50:04 -0400 > Subject: Re: All-Female Societies > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > On Sat, 31 May 1997, Pamela Bedore wrote: > [snip] > > I just read Leona Gom's -The Y Chromosome- and found it fascinating. I'm > > interested in reading other novels or papers (not necessarily sci fi) > > dealing with all-female societies. > > > > Any ideas? > > Don't forget Joan Slonckzewski's _A Door Into Ocean_ (I apologize if I > misspelled her name) > It is a far-future sci-fi novel about a struggle between a pacifist > all-female society and a "normal" militaristic society like ours. I > particulary liked the biological explanation of their reproduction. > > Also, Marion Zimmer Bradley's _The Firebrand_, a historical fantasy (like > _The Mists of Avalon_) has a stretch among the Amazons, so if you read all > of the others, you might try it. > > -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:37:27 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Fat SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > I have had the most disconcerting expereince of being in Indonesia /Java, > where they regard people with a tendency to rotundness as an object of > beauty, and expression of wealth and good fortune.. So much so, that at a > social gathering people wanted to sit next to me because it would bring them > good luck. It makes sense to me! I come from a typically Jewish family which equates food with love, but took on the thin is beautiful psychosis of late twentieth century British society. The consequence is some seriously screwed up women in my family. farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:44:01 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Fat SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun, 25 May 1997 19:12:07 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: . (I once read that in North > America, it used to be that most people did enough physical labour in the > course of each day to maintain a basic level of fitness. Now, almost > no-one does. So it's not just food, it's that we now do far less labour.) > In America, it's possible to be quite poor and still be fat. So having > the time and the resources to work at being thin has become the ideal of > beauty. > > -nalo Two superb books on the history of eating in America are Harvey Levenstein's Revolution at the Table and The Making of the American Diet. Put simply he points to a general culture of fat is beautiful up to the end of the nineteenth century. In the twentieth century this got caught up with the discovery of vitamins but, and this is crucial, no way was yet invented to count vitamins. The consequence was a tendency to overestimate the amount of food people needed to be well-nourished. Instead of concentrating on real poverty American nutritionists started diagnosing large numbers of children as undernourished. Furthermore, the recommended calorific intake was set so high that American soldiers in the second world war actually put on weight during basic training. When at the end of the war these soldiers went home, they went home with expectations of overly-large meals which they passed on to their families. As a side issue, Levenstein talks about the dumbing down of the American diet -- the tendency at the turn of the century to advocated "unmixed" and non-spicy foods as easier to digest. In 1950 you could travel from coast to coast and be served nothing but chicken or steak with potato salad and coleslaw. Suddenly, MacDonalds starts to look attractive. Sorry, all off the point, but excellent books for anyone interested in the culture of the body. Farah > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:58:31 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: reproduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Tara, I would love to help you with the book but cannot download the package. Could you send me the details in plain text. fm7@york.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:56:02 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Egalia's Daughters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 May 1997 14:23:43 +0100 Britt-Inger Johansson wrote: > > With a blush covering my face I must confess I haven't read it, just read > about it. It was first published in Swedish translation when I was round > 16-17 and at that time my feministside were still slumbering. But one day I > will come across it again I trust.... > > Bi > Dear Bi, I can't recommend this book too highly. It is fascinating to compare it to Capovolta: or the New Gulliver a book which came out in women's Press at the same time here. DofE is radical feminist to C's liberal feminist. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:51:19 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Genderless women and non-sexual lesbians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII In reply to Robin Gordon > Scott is certainly right when she says that without explicit sexual > content, characters coded as lesbian will not be SEEN to be lesbian. > Items meant to code a character as lesbian will be read as gender > deviations, not as gender and sexual orientation signals. Whilst I am not challenging Scott's choice (I love the books) I *still* resent the increasing demand that we all be sexualised, and it is that I regret. Gender roles have opened up enormously, but we seem to have fallen into the trap that liberation equals sex. > > This is true for many of us in real life as well. I purposefully code my > appearance as lesbian, but still am constantly confronted by the > assumption that I am straight. This creates a constant need to explicitly > out myself. And I have problems as an identified lesbian in a relationship with a man (the only other bi women I know are principally attracted to men so I am uncomfortable with the term). Even close friends refuse to accept either my history or my identification, but I have been the route of *looking* like a dyke (whatever that means) and didn't feel right but how out can you be when people don't ask? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:01:02 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Meg's character (Wrinkle in Time, etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 May 1997 15:46:00 CST Gabrielle Bate wrote: > > Someone a while ago commented that Meg in a Wrinkle in Time is a > really cool character because she is a sympathetically portrayed nerd. > I agree completely. However, I have major problems with the way L'Engle > portrays her as an adult. > In _A Swiftly Tilting Planet_, she is still sufficiently human to > be the POV character, though she has somehow grown up to be beautiful and > has gotten rid of her glasses, the ultimate symbol of geekiness. (I say as > I adjust my glasses.) In the later books (those that I have read, far from > all) she is completely reduced to a generic mom character who gives out > hugs and brownies. Calvin, on the other hand, gets to stay somewhat > interesting. The message seems to me to be that it's okay to be a nerdy girl, > but you damn well better conform when you grow up. > Gabby Bate > bate@macc.wisc.edu THis was why I expressed some doubts about these books as role models for girls. Even in the first book, Meg's sense of self comes from her brother and her (later) boyfriend. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:23:07 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: All-Female Societies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I have already recommended this to others on this list, but Gerd Brantenburg's Daughters of Egalia (or Egalia's Daughters) is a must. And has anybody mentioned Joanna Russ, The Female Man yet? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:08:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: sexualized characters In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Farah wrote: > > Whilst I am not challenging Scott's choice (I love the books) I *still* > resent the increasing demand that we all be sexualised, and it is that > I regret. Gender roles have opened up enormously, but we seem to > have fallen into the trap that liberation equals sex. > I think the question of the sexualization of women in sf is interesting. Of course women characters have been historically sexualized as objects of male desire and exploitation in much hetero/sexist scifi. The metal bikini stories we all know and hate. Feminist sf, has followed the history of the feminist movement, it seems to me, in terms of representing women's sexuality. In early works sexuality was minimized, not important, except insofar as issues of reproduction were concerned, particularly ideas about how to reproduce without men. Some female characters, particularly in all female societies, might have been portrayed as having loving companionships/ relationships with other women, generall the sexual part being downplayed. (As the sexual part of lesbian relationships was downplayed by lesbian feminists for a period). OR, more adventurous female characters, often in heterosexual societies were largely desexualized. In the last ten years feminists, and lesbians in a related but separate debate, have paid more attention to female sexual desire and activity, and attempted to integrate that into a vision of personal and political liberation. Accordingly, more feminist writers address their female characters sex lives, with men or with women. I'm the first to agree that our society, including the lesbian and gay comunity, is too obsessed with sex. Sex is not the most important thing in life to me, not even close, and it's not even the most interesting. But it is an important part of life. And my sexuality (including so much more than just sex), particularly as a lesbian is an important part of my life. Desexualized female characters read to me as incomplete, and for the most part, as closeted lesbians. Now, lesbian authors, such as Melissa Scott and Nicola Griffith, are bringing those characters out! Their women characters are not obsessed with sex, but are definitely explicitly sexual, and lesbian. I'd be interested to know, Farah, Joel or anyone else, what you feel is lost with decreasing numbers of 'desexualized' female characters? Robin ************************* Dip me in honey and throw me to the lesbians. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:39:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: All-Female Societies Comments: cc: farah mendlesohn In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Farah wrote: >I have already recommended this to others on this list, but Gerd >Brantenburg's Daughters of Egalia (or Egalia's Daughters) is a must. >And has anybody mentioned Joanna Russ, The Female Man yet? (and if not, and why not?!) Just so happens I'm nearly through with my first re-reading in a very long time. There's too much to say to say it quickly! Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:40:59 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: sexualized characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > I'd be interested to know, Farah, Joel or anyone else, what you feel is > lost with decreasing numbers of 'desexualized' female characters? > > Robin > ************************* > Dip me in honey and throw > me to the lesbians. (one of my favourite quotations!) What has been lost I feel is the right to be gender and sexuality neutral. Celibacy is seen as an interim stage and one cannot live with a woman without sexuality being assumed. For three months I lived with a very straight friend of mine. Because I am gay and people new that I loved/love her very much they assumed a sexual relationship (many told me so out right). Men have on the whole enjoyed the right to chosen singleness to a far greater degree than women, whose identity has traditionally been bound up with sex, but I think men too are losing this right (I find it unsurprising that the western is apparently declining in popularity - it was the quintessential single sex genre). Interestingly, I think American society has placed much more premium on inter-sex friendships than much of Europe (apart from sex I mean) most of the US rejected single sex public education (pre-college) towards the end of the nineteenth century and the marriage manuals of the turn of the century are very hot on the companionate aspects of marriage. In early sf, what is fascinating is that only the baddies get to stay single. Goodies, both male and female, must be either married or be paired off at the end. It is in the forties and fifties (that low point for US feminism) that single sex sf becomes the norm. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: sexualized characters In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For an interesting take on being "desexualized" see Greg Egan's new (in the U.S.) novel Distress. One of the major characters is "asex," that is the character has gone through surgery to remove all of "ver" sexual organs. This becomes a real problem when the protagonist falls in love with "ver." Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:49:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Nelson Subject: Herbet and McCaffrey I have been following this group with great interest for the past two months. I am an under grad student at Cal. State Fullerton with an American Studies major and Womens Studies minor. I am writing a paper in connection with an upper division writing class in the AMST department. The topic I chose was "Women in Science Fiction, Reflection or Prediction?" I am using the Dune series by Frank Herbert and the Dragon Riders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey as the means to explore this topic. I am interested in the thoughts of this group on the topic. My hypothesis at this point is that Herbert's women reflect society and warn of taking things to an extreme. Bene Gesserit control their bodies but are forbidden to love and Bene Tleilaxu females have no control and are reduced to functioning as axotl tanks. McCaffrey seems to paint a prediction of strong positive women working within the system to succeed and overcome. Leesa, Menolly and Nerlika for example. Any thoughts pro or con would be appreciated. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:01:19 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: sexualized characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:49:11 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > For an interesting take on being "desexualized" see Greg Egan's new (in > the U.S.) novel Distress. One of the major characters is "asex," that is > the character has gone through surgery to remove all of "ver" sexual > organs. This becomes a real problem when the protagonist falls in love > with "ver." > > Mike Levy I am curious, persumably the character is male or how else can all "sex organs" be removed? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:03:46 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:49:16 -0400 Barbara Nelson wrote: > McCaffrey seems to paint a prediction of strong positive women working within > the system to succeed and overcome. Leesa, Menolly and Nerlika for example. Sadly, only in the sense that romance heroines are allowed to be strong and unusual until they meet the perfect man. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:28:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > upper division writing class in the AMST department. The topic I chose was > "Women in Science Fiction, Reflection or Prediction?" Sounds like an interesting topic, although I think you'll find a wide range--perhaps even within those series. > My hypothesis at this point is that Herbert's women reflect society and warn > of taking things to an extreme. Bene Gesserit control their bodies but are > forbidden to love and Bene Tleilaxu females have no control and are reduced > to functioning as axotl tanks. How about some of the others? Irulan or the Fremen women? Or the fact that we don't see women as rulers except in the Bene Gesserit? > McCaffrey seems to paint a prediction of strong positive women working within > the system to succeed and overcome. Leesa, Menolly and Nerlika for example. Perhaps, although it's very clearly a change that is happening as we read, and to me at least, it's rather depressing to think that women will still be fighting the same war on different fronts over and over again into the future... :-( Although, I should add that I didn't feel that way while reading the stories, and I think that McCaffery would be surprised by that observation. -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <970604024915_780142690@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >My hypothesis at this point is that Herbert's women reflect society and warn >of taking things to an extreme. Bene Gesserit control their bodies but are >forbidden to love and Bene Tleilaxu females have no control and are reduced >to functioning as axotl tanks. >McCaffrey seems to paint a prediction of strong positive women working within >the system to succeed and overcome. Leesa, Menolly and Nerlika for example. > >Any thoughts pro or con would be appreciated. > >Barbara Barbara, I've no idea about McCaffrey, but the B.G. of Dune are portrayed in an interesting way: as witches. It's interesting because it implies that the only way a woman can be powerful is to be a witch. Puts a little different perspective on the reason for the Salem Witch hunt/trial, doesn't it. Anyway, I don't agree that the B.G. are not permitted to love, but I would say that their love interests are heavily guided on two levels: 1) most have a fierce loyalty to the Sisterhood and 2) I suspect that they are conditioned to be able to grow to love the man they will be with, assuming they will be with any man. As to the Tleilaxu (Bene Tleilax being, as noted in the movie, "...training planet of the Mentats."), I don't remember anything about their even being mentioned. Axlotl tanks are just that, tanks full of nutrients in which clones, essentially, such as Duncan Idaho (in later books) grow. Please correct me if I'm wrong and show me where. I'm very into the Dune series, so feel free to ask me anything about that, or feel free to ask me to expand on what I've already said. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:43:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <970604024915_780142690@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Barbara Nelson wrote: >I have been following this group with great interest for the past two months. > I am an under grad student at Cal. State Fullerton with an American Studies >major and Womens Studies minor. I am writing a paper in connection with an >upper division writing class in the AMST department. The topic I chose was >"Women in Science Fiction, Reflection or Prediction?" I am using the Dune >series by Frank Herbert and the Dragon Riders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey as >the means to explore this topic. I am interested in the thoughts of this >group on the topic. Herbert and McCaffrey seem odd choices. _Dune_ is about messianism; it's explicitly about social/psychological extremes. McCaffrey's dragon stories simply got away from her. The original Analog novella (novelette? I can never keep them straight) allowed her to base a good career on more and more of the same. At a minimum, I would suggest taking the original story more seriously than the parade of sequels, and definitely include her earlier sf ("A Womanly Talent" comes to mind). >My hypothesis at this point is that Herbert's women reflect society and warn >of taking things to an extreme. Bene Gesserit control their bodies but are >forbidden to love and Bene Tleilaxu females have no control and are reduced >to functioning as axotl tanks. Perhaps the largest commonality the two share is that one smash hit gave them narrow careers producing interminable sequels. Herbert's primary concern throughout his career was ecology. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:48:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sean Johnston replied: > I've no idea about McCaffrey, but the B.G. of Dune are portrayed in >an interesting way: as witches. It's interesting because it implies that >the only way a woman can be powerful is to be a witch. Puts a little >different perspective on the reason for the Salem Witch hunt/trial, doesn't >it. . . . or that the only way a powerful woman, or circle of women, will ber *percieved* is as witches. I haven't re-read _Dune_ in ages; do they call themselves witches, or is that only used by other people? Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:53:32 -0400 Reply-To: Nalo Hopkinson Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: RFC822 error: SENDER field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The Bene Gesserit are not supposed to love; the order mistrusts love deeply, and Jessica is considered by some of them to be the ultimate traitor for having altered their plans for the universe by having a son too early out of love for her duke. I think it's Darwi Odrade that discusses some of that in detail in, I think _Chapterhouse Dune._ They are quite willing to use sex as a method of bonding people to them, but love makes them itchy. Not all the B.G. see it that way, however, Odrade being one of the rebels, but it's a silent rebellion. She has to keep her subversive tendencies hidden. The Bene Tleilax axolotl tanks are almost certainly their women. There are hints dropped to that effect all through all six volumes, and the B.T. go to great pains to keep the organic nature of the tanks hidden. Too, no-one ever sees their women. I think it's also in Chapterhouse Dune that some of that begins to be overtly stated. I came away from the series with an impression of the B.T. axolotl tanks as something like those ants whose queens do the breeding for the whole colony, and who become totally immobile, with their hind ends swollen enormously to many times the size of a regular ant. I picture normal-sized women's heads and torsos, with vast organ cavities to house enormous wombs, and vestigial legs....gah. -nalo "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: sexualized characters In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:49:11 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > > > For an interesting take on being "desexualized" see Greg Egan's > new (in > > the U.S.) novel Distress. One of the major characters is "asex," that > is > > the character has gone through surgery to remove all of "ver" > sexual > > organs. This becomes a real problem when the protagonist falls in > love > > with "ver." > > > > Mike Levy > > > I am curious, persumably the character is male or how else can all > "sex organs" be removed? > > Farah > Actually, unless I missed it, we're never told whether the "asex" character is male or female. The character is African and "ver" name carries no gender connotation (at least within Anglo culture). All pronouns used are neutral, as for example "ver." It isn't even clear whether or not the male protagonist knows "ver" original sex. As to sex organs being removed, the "asex" character has no breast tissue or nipples. Between "ver" legs is nothing but smooth flesh with a small urethral opening. If the character was female, the operations involved would have removed labia, clitoris, ovaries, womb, etc. Presumably both formerly male and formerly female asexes would look identical on the outside, although Egan doesn't go into detail about how thoroughly they're restructured on the inside or how the hormones work out for that matter. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970604094817.006f1698@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Other people call the B.G. witches. -nalo "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970604094817.006f1698@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sean Johnston replied: >> I've no idea about McCaffrey, but the B.G. of Dune are portrayed in >>an interesting way: as witches. It's interesting because it implies that >>the only way a woman can be powerful is to be a witch. Puts a little >>different perspective on the reason for the Salem Witch hunt/trial, doesn't >>it. > >. . . or that the only way a powerful woman, or circle of women, will ber >*percieved* is as witches. > >I haven't re-read _Dune_ in ages; do they call themselves witches, or is >that only used by other people? > > >Neil Rest Neil, To themselves, they're a Sisterhood. To people who don't like them, they're often witches. It's a way of explaining how the B.G. are -able- to do all the wierd shit they can do. It's also a handy derogatory term. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <970604024915_780142690@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Bene Gesserit control their bodies but are >forbidden to love and Bene Tleilaxu females have no control and are reduced >to functioning as axotl tanks. >McCaffrey seems to paint a prediction of strong positive women working within >the system to succeed and overcome. Leesa, Menolly and Nerlika for example. > >Any thoughts pro or con would be appreciated. > >Barbara Barbara, Here's what an axolotl tank is: "The most essential Tlielaxu achievement, developed in rudimentary form long before Tleilax was discovered by the Guild, during the period when the Tleilaxu genetically manufactured lower forms--thralls, thirgoya, and tharaxu--to 'staff' their elaborate social order. The axolotl tank was thus the resuls of a long history of prior genetic research and development, in which the lower social forms served as experimental subjects. "Axolotl technology was not confined to the 'tank' itself, which was little better than an artificial womb. The tanks were actually wessels for the end products and hosted a wide spectrum of activities centered on DNA recombination. After the experiment emerged from the axolotl solution, these results could be tested. The nature of this solution and of the tank was determined by the product being manufactured The entire technology became increasingly refined and sophisticated as the Tleilaxu curiosity and the demands of the Imperium increased. "In the beginning such products as thralls and thirgoya had been difficult to obtain. Later, after the Guild made itself known the Tleilaxu marshaled their expertise to discover and explore what had been called the DNA Touchstone Template (DTT), the key to the basic mechanism and functioning of the fundamental double-helix. Manipulation of the DTT naturally required the development of an advanced technology, the breakthrough pre-Butlerian societies had simultaneously dreamed of and feared. Thereafter, it was a simple matter for the Bene Tleilax to delve into the potential of double-helix recombination and manipulation. "Development of the three lower classes of the Tleilaxu--thrall, thirgoya, and tharaxu--might be considered child's play compared with what the Bene Tleilax later accomplished. After the discovery of the DTT, the Tleilaxu were challenged by the Guils: Could DTT manipulation produce a superior breed of steersmen and navigators with heightened spice-trance ability? "DNA recombination produced Guildsmen who were transferred directly from the axolotl tank to the prescience-chamber filled with a liquid enriched with oxygen and melange gas. These members of the Fraternity were produced iwth fish-like gills, in addition to lungs, to aid in respiration. The oxygen-melange mixture in the precience-chambers was extremely heavy and the Giildsmen were further equipped with webbed hands similar to those of a frog to maintain their equilibrium. The result was both effective and grotesque. "A technocratic society, the Bene Tleilax organized their genetic manipulations into product departments. One dealt with twisted mentats, one with the Guild, one with sexual surrogates, one with religious engineering, one with gholas, one with face dancers, and still another with Tleilaxu archetypes and their kwisatz haderach program. These several departments and more overlapped, sharing knowledge and techniques, each ultimately represented on the Bene Tleilax Commissarium the supreme forum. "The axolotl tank itself is thus significant more in terms of symbol than technology. Artificial wombs had been created before. Humans had been nurtured in solution long ago. The tank was not a Tleilaxu invention, but no one has ever refined genetic engineering to the extent of the Tleilaxu. For better or worse the DNA Touchstone Template appears to have been lost during the Scattering." -The Dune Encyclopedia--complied by Dr. Willis E. McNelly. Berkley Science Fiction/Reference. 1984. pp. 106-107 I could also get info on the Bene Gesserit if you like. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:58:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Nelson Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey My reading of the Dune series has the BG cultivating the perception of themselves as witches through what they term the Missionoria Protecteria. Herbert has them manipulate this image to keep people in awe and fear of them. I somewhat took it as Herbert sarcastic slap at the whole idea of witchcraft. It comes off to me as witchcraft is anything you know that the other person doesn't know or understand. Sean, In Heretics of Dune ( hardback p 370) in a conversation between Dar And Tar (BG Reverend Mothers) on Rakis you are first given the explicit hypothesis that the axlotl tanks are women acting as surrogate mothers. This is confirmed later when Tar promises Waff (a Bene Tleilaxu) that they will serve in all ways save one, they will never agree to become axlotl tanks. His reaction confirms the hypothesis. Given the information that the BT combine Hinduism and Islamic belief it seemed not unexpected. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:34:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Herbet and McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <970604145804_-1329870507@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >My reading of the Dune series has the BG cultivating the perception of >themselves as witches through what they term the Missionoria Protecteria. > Herbert has them manipulate this image to keep people in awe and fear of >them. I somewhat took it as Herbert sarcastic slap at the whole idea of >witchcraft. It comes off to me as witchcraft is anything you know that the >other person doesn't know or understand. > >Sean, >In Heretics of Dune ( hardback p 370) in a conversation between Dar And Tar >(BG Reverend Mothers) on Rakis you are first given the explicit hypothesis >that the axlotl tanks are women acting as surrogate mothers. This is >confirmed later when Tar promises Waff (a Bene Tleilaxu) that they will serve >in all ways save one, they will never agree to become axlotl tanks. His >reaction confirms the hypothesis. Given the information that the BT combine >Hinduism and Islamic belief it seemed not unexpected. Barbara, I'll finish "Heretics" over the weekend or so and see. Are you talking about Darwi and Taraza in Taraza's conversation with Sheanna when Taraza asks Sheanna if she has any more surprises for her? Better, what's the blurb at the beginning of the chapter you're speaking of? -Sean