========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:15:07 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: B5 and queers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:07:17 -0400 Robin Gordon wrote: > But I must say I hardly watch DS9 anymore, Kira's pregrnancy and Dax's > relationship with Worf have disheartened me greatly, both used as tools to > diminish the strong independence of the character. I love Babylon 5, the > ongoing and complex storyline and great political intrigues! I miss > Na'Toth though too. And while she needs to loosen up her acting, I like > the new 'Number One' leader of the Mars rebellion. > Thanks for the hints, I look forward to them. Could B5 fans be aware tho that we will not be receiving B5 in Britain again until July, No spoilers please! > Gay men in space? Alas, while gay male sexuality has always been more > visible, in continues to be more threatening to our culture as well. Sure > B5 hints that same-sex marriage is a norm in the future when Marcus and > Steven play a honeymoon couple on their first trip to mars, but where are > the real gay men? > > unapologetically a fan of television sf: > > Robin Gordon Bujold's Ethan of Athos is a rare exception, beautifully and sensitively written it is explicit without being explicit if you know what I mean. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:21:23 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: was Re: And the course winds up... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:37:34 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > > NH: Neil, you're right. Female genital infibulation is societally > enforced mutilation; liposuction is not. Consider, however, that you > could have made that simple statement to contradict Laura's without the > loaded words that you chose. If I were Laura, I'd be wounded. I'd read > them as a personal attack. I want to make a plea that we try to discuss, > disagree and even argue with each other without trying to take it out of > each other's hides. > > -nalo Nalo, I just want to say that I din't see Neil's comments as loaded or hard, they were very much what I wanted to say, but having heard too many vituperative conversations on this subject, decided to stay away. One issue -- and we can't avoid it-- is that many of us will take comments from a woman that we will not accept (often for very good reasons) from a man. Farah > > > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the > stars/Were near." > -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:54:53 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Susan Calvin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hi again! I've been away for a week but must add my two'pennorth re Susan Calvin and sf in general. I loved Susan Calvin when I was younger and very consciously took her for a model. Perhaps a bit restricting, but better than copying the dating/partying roles of my friends. Re sf and sexism. *Please* be careful when you talk about the stereotyped women's roles in sf. This is only useful for the period 1945-1965. There are a number of women writers in the early magazines, and in the early period of sf many of the male writers (Harl Vincent, David H. Keller to name just two) wrote of truly human women. One lovely story by Keller (I do not have the title to hand) tells of a woman flight enginner who marries a poet. When they have a child he stays at home with the daughter. She spends too much time at work and eventually there is an accident when father and daughter acidentally get swept off in an experimental plane. But note. When the plane is recovered our heroine phones work to announce, not that she is giving up work to be a better housewife, but that she intends to take a six month holiday. Her boss regards her work so highly he doesn't bat an eyelash. This woman is treated no differently than an over-working man might be today. They key thing is that sf is of its time. We tend to forget there was a highly active women's movement in the US through the end of the nineteenth century and until the 1930s (remember the Katherine Hepburn film, Woman of the Year?) and although many male writers tried to sweep it under the carpet, others were a product of it. Hugo Gernsback,, editor of the first sf magazine, saw science as something for both sexes, and always drew attention to the few letters from women. From what I can work out, the male writers of the 1920s and 1930s sf magazines were slightly older than the average in the 1940s. Many (although obviously not all) were liberal, progressive and mildly feminist. Their replacement by Palmer's young turks and preference for pretty thoughtless sf did nothing for the image of women in sf. One factor we may like to think about. Sf is a very middle -class genre. Women's involvement in sf has been about in proportion to our representation in middle-class professions. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:09:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: was Re: And the course winds up... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: NH: Yes, in my original comment, I made a point of saying that if I had been on the receiving end of Neil's comments, that's how *I* would have felt them. Lots of people have thicker skins than I do, and I recognise that. I said so to Neil in a private post. (Apologies to the list madam for getting into this dicussion again. I really will stop now.) -nalo > Nalo, I just want to say that I din't see Neil's comments as loaded or > hard, they were very much what I wanted to say, but having heard too > many vituperative conversations on this subject, decided to stay > away. One issue -- and we can't avoid it-- is that many of us will take > comments from a woman that we will not accept (often for very good > reasons) from a man. > > Farah > > > > > > > > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the > > stars/Were near." > > -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:44:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Kendrick Subject: Re: Susan Calvin In-Reply-To: <970617155342_-1362571323@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Since this is my first post to the list, I'll introduce myself. My name is > Anny Middon. I have absolutely no qualifications to participate in this > list, save a love of science fiction and a strong feminist philosophy. > (Query: How many on this list are old enough to remember when Feminism was > more commonly known as Women's Liberation?) > My first connection with feminism was a paperback book I bought at a garage sale titled, _Voices from Women's Liberation_. I LOVED book of essays, it changed me in many ways. Another funny connected note: When I was in labor I snapped at my mother for something she said about "girl babies and boy babies." She turned to the nurse, gave a hopeless shrug, and said "My daughter is one of those women's libbers." Michelle Kendrick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:27:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith / SF-LOVERS Digest V22 #199 (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There were some notes in here about Nicola Griffith, that I thought she (and others) might find interesting ... Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:50:32 -0400 From: Saul Jaffe Reply-To: SF-LOVERS-WRITTEN@rutgers.edu To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS@sflovers.rutgers.edu Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V22 #199 SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Jun 1997 Volume 22 : Issue 199 Today's Topics: Books - Griffith (2 msgs) & Holdstock & Longyear (3 msgs) & McCaffrey & Moon (3 msgs) & Piper & Sheckley (6 msgs) & E. E. Smith --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jun 1997 16:59:07 GMT From: Mister Skin Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Ammonite is Dyno-MITE! Just read Nicola Griffith's Ammonite, and I can fairly recommend it to all as a pretty good read, especially the first half of the book. I fund at a bookstore's knockdown rack, remembered that it had been discussed on rasfw and picked it up on speck (as a cost of a little over a dollar, I wasn't risking much capital). The book turned out to be a good science fiction novel in the purest sense of the word - central to the novel is a mystery set on another planet that's being investigated by an anthropologist. The planet Jeep is inhabited solely by women, clearly the descendents of a lost colony. The women on the planet have found a way to not only reproduce, but reproduce with genetic variability (i.e., their daughters aren't just clones of themselves). A subsequent investigation finds out what happened to the lost colony's men, when a virus infects the colony and kills all of the men while most of the women survive. The planet is subsequently quarantined and the story deals with the attempts of Marghe, an anthopologist with a rocky past, who is a human guinea pig for a vaccine against the virus, and is also attempting to discover the colony's origin. This aspect of the novel, investigating the virus and the people that live on the planet, is what gives the story a really good science fiction buzz. The characters are well written and the plot rolls right along, as well. I did have one point that puzzled me, but it contains potential spoilers, so SPOILER ALERT A careful examination of the story's plot will show that lesbianism is a major them of the novel. Except it isn't. "Lesbianism" exists only in context with heterosexuality, which the natives of Jeep have no knowledge of, so far as I can tell. What's more the interstellar personnel trapped on the planet with the natives by the quarantine also appear to have no knowledge of heterosexuality. Men (and heterosexuality) are not only absent from the planet, they're absent from the story. I'm not complaining about that, but it leaves me puzzled about what Griffith was up to. Was she creating a lesbian fantasy of a World Without Men and didn't want to include men in it at all? Was she attempting to use Ammonite as a thought experiment, speculating on what lesbianism might be like without having to exist within the context of heterosexuality? If that were so, wouldn't it have been more iluminating to have heterosexual Company personnel have difficulties with the prospect of a lifetime of either lesbianism or celibacy, so they could be contrasted with the inhabitants of Jeep? It might also have been useful to contrast the lesbians among the Company with the Jeepians. That would have made for a better thought experiment, so I guess I conclude that it was more of a fantasy. Any other thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1997 01:53:55 GMT From: "Elisabeth Carey" Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Ammonite is Dyno-MITE! >A careful examination of the story's plot will show that lesbianism is a >major them of the novel. Except it isn't. "Lesbianism" exists only in >context with heterosexuality, which the natives of Jeep have no knowledge >of, so far as I can tell. What's more the interstellar personnel trapped >on the planet with the natives by the quarintine also appear to have no >knowledge of heterosexuality. Men (and heterosexuality) are not only >absent from the planet, they're absent from the story. Not quite true. There are no men among the offworld personnel on Jeep because the men with the first expedition to arrive quickly died of the virus, and the men among the reinforcements died, as did many but not all of the women. With a death rate of 100% amongst male personnel on Jeep, they stopped sending men, the women already there are stuck there until there's an effective vaccine, and the few new people sent are all female. Because of this complete absence of men from the planet, active heterosexuality is not a possibility for anyone on Jeep - but there are a number of references, such as the base commander's checking Marghe's file, that make it plain that they're scarcely unfamiliar with the concept. Marghe's reflections on her past life make it reasonably plain that her parents were heterosexual. There are a couple of passing references to past male lovers of personnel on Jeep. But there aren't, at any point, any males "onstage" in _Ammonite_, and their absence is never made an issue of, beyond the practical implications of not being able to take any risk of letting that virus off Jeep, and the puzzle of how the natives are reproducing. >I'm not complaining about that, but it leaves me puzzled about what >Griffith was up to. Was she creating a lesbian fantasy of a World Without >Men and didn't want to include men in it at all? What she was really doing was a riff on lots of lesbian separatist sf that presumed that women-only societies would be idyllic and perfect - and then be destroyed by the coming of the Evil Men. [That's not speculation, BTW; I asked her about it at Readercon the year that _Ammonite_ won the Tiptree.] In _Ammonite_, she gives us an all-female world which is far from perfect, being inhabited, after all, by _human beings_; she shows many [not all] of the cultures of that world being quite capable of responding to the challenge represented by the arrival of the offworlders, and avoids the men=evil equation by, among other things, showing the women of the Company as having authority, individuality, and their own agendas, and by never directly identifying any Company personnel dealing with Jeep as male [it's perfectly possible that some of the officers and crew of the blockading ships are male; we're not told, that information is treated as irrelevant.] >Was she attempting to use Ammonite as a thought experiment, speculating on >what lesbianism might be like without having to exist within the context >of heterosexuality? If that were so, wouldn't it have been more >iluminating to have heterosexual Company personnel have difficulties with >the prospect of a lifetime of either lesbianism or celibacy, There were some slight references to the last point, but it wasn't the main problem these women faced. Their sex lives aren't the point; whether they can ever go home to their careers and their loved ones, regardless of gender, without bringing a deadly virus with them _is_. >so they could be contrasted with the inhabitants of Jeep? It might also >have been useful to contrast the lesbians among the Company with the >Jeepians. That would have made for a better thought experiment, so I guess >I conclude that it was more of a fantasy. Any other thoughts? But one of the points of the novel is that women are _not_ their sex lives exclusively, or even primarily. The Company women on Jeep are professionals, with varying degrees of commitment to their current employer [Marghe, for instance, has very little commitment to the Company, while the base commander's is quite strong], and varying degrees of willingness to resign themselves to spending the rest of their lives on Jeep, cut off from _everything_ that mattered to them in their offworld lives. Or, to put it another way, if you have a group of people which is mixed in gender, and you take away all the male people, leaving only the females, what's left? People. People with the full range of human variation in character. Lis Carey ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 1997 12:39:05 -0400 From: nancyl@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Series by Robert Holdstock Which books by Holdstock are series, and in what order? Nancy Lebovitz nancyL@universe.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:24:09 -0400 From: R E Mann Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Longyear Can anyone tell me what's become of Barry B. Longyear? He had a couple really interesting series going in IASFM a few years ago, but seems to have vanished almost as thoroughly as Somtow P. Sucharitkul. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 1997 16:13:07 GMT From: dsgood@visi.com (Dan Goodman) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Longyear He's been showing up in Absolute Magnitude. Dan Goodman dsgood@visi.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:51:44 GMT From: lawrence@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Longyear And Somtow Sucharitkul changed his byline to S.P. Somtow; he's still around and still writing, though he's drifted out of the SF genre somewhat. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 1997 01:54:37 GMT From: harstan@ix.netcom.com (Harriet Klausner) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Review:Acorna-Anne McCaffrey ACORNA: THE UNICORN GIRL Anne McCaffrey & Margaret Ball HarperPrism, Jul 1997, $22.00, 256 pp. ISBN: 0-06-105296-5 A trio of space prospectors capture a pod floating through the endless void of space. To their shock, inside the pod sleeps an unusual looking infant. The pod's passenger is a cross between a humanoid and a unicorn. Acorna the human unicorn displays several interesting powers. She sanitizes air and water, and heals injuries with her horn, etc. It seems before long, everyone wants to own Acorna for various purposes. Scientists want to study her. One of the miner's uncles sees the girl being a ticket to a fortune. Security guardians want to use her as bait to capture the three minors who have broken some rules in the past. Even people who desire to do good things want to use the child to change society. It appears that no matter which way the miners and the Acorna turn, someone covets her powers. ACORNA:THE UNICORN GIRL is a very good fantasy novel that allows readers to believe in the possible species unicorn-humanoid. However, even though Acorna and the three minors are lovable chaps (so were the Three Stooges), this tale lacks the charm and complexity of the Pern tales. The novel is not for everyone. Only diehard fans of Anne Mccaffrey will enjoy her collaboration with Margaret Ball. This reviewer plans to ride a dragon and fight thread instead even as she is charmed, in spite of herself, by the cute but predictable antics of ACORNA. Harriet Klausner ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 1997 17:38:29 -0400 From: gmh@renc.igs.net ("gwen harvey") Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: E Moon, Remnant Population In response to the last post that I read, I believe the book is noteworthy for three reasons: 1. It's written about subjects that are "popular" right now, i.e. elder rights, woman's rights and elder rights is a serious and important issue 2. The book is written in a different kind of language, sort of what you might expect from a cross between Hemingway, and some of the popular South American writers, (the names escape me). 3. The book is written simply because it tells the story of an uneducated woman in her terms without falling into the 'dialect' mode which just becomes annoying to the reader. I am particularly interested in elder rights, so I liked the book. Most of Moon seems to have a message, but nothing harmful. I was entertained, and that's all for now.. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1997 11:42:04 GMT From: "Elisabeth Carey" Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: E Moon, Remnant Population "Gwen Harvey" wrote: >... I believe the book is noteworthy for three reasons: > >1. It's written about subjects that are "popular" right now, i.e. elder >rights, woman's rights and elder rights is a serious and important issue This doesn't render a bad book into a good one. Not only have other writers done this better in the past, _Moon_ has done this better in the past. >2. The book is written in a different kind of language, sort of what you >might expect from a cross between Hemingway, and some of the popular >South American writers, (the names escape me). You mean the magic realists, such as Borges and Garcia Marquez? Sorry, I don't see it - and if I did, it wouldn't excuse the idiot plot and the ill-thought-out background. >3. The book is written simply because it tells the story of an uneducated >woman in her terms without falling into the 'dialect' mode which just >becomes annoying to the reader. Yes, Moon did manage to do that well which is only to say that she achieved the minimal standard necessary to render the book _readable_. This doesn't alter the ill-thought-out economic background, the idiot plot, or the cartoonish and stereotypical portrayal of all the characters _except_ Ofelia and the natives. >I am particularly interested in elder rights, so I liked the book. Most >of Moon seems to have a message, but nothing harmful. I was entertained, >and that's all for now.. Because it happens to be on subject you care about, and takes the position you agree with, it doesn't have to meet reasonable standards in any other area to be considered by you as a good book? Lis Carey ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1997 14:49:45 GMT From: gwenbyrd@aol.com (Gwen Byrd) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Moon - "Remnant Population" I agree. It's been a while since I read Remnant Population. I kind of enjoyed the style, being in the POW of an old woman left on a planet inhabited by a primitive prehumans. But I thought it unlikely that the aborigines could battle with the colony's ships. It was fun and sort of homey, but not one that should win the Hugo. Gwen Byrd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:34:59 GMT From: Pendragon2@RocketMail.com (Pendragon) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: PIPER: First Cycle I read both of the FAQ's on Piper, but failed to see any mention of this book. It does say that it is *edited and expanded* by Michael Kurland. Does this ~aid~ by this particular individual invalidate any/all of Piper's involvement. As I have not read any of Piper's solo works (have to be special ordered), can someone give me some info on this book. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 1997 15:41:55 GMT From: astephan@students.uiuc.edu (adam louis stephanides) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Robert Sheckley tht@rhi.hi.is (Torfi H Tulinius) writes: >I love Sheckley, what is the general consensus about him? What would you >recommend? Is he dead? I'd highly recommend _Mindswap_ and _Dimension of Miracles_. I'd also suggest _Options_; while I think it's a failure overall, there are some excellent passages. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:07:49 GMT From: lawrence@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Robert Sheckley mstephen@enter.net (Mark Stephen) wrote: >I met him at SeaCon, and would guess he is now in his late 50's. Since he was first published more than forty years ago, I suspect he's older than that. I haven't found anything dated earlier than 1952 - forty-five years ago, but I doubt he was selling regularly at fourteen. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 02:44:26 -0500 From: resnick@delphi.com Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Robert Sheckley Sheckley's masterwork is DIMENSION OF MIRACLES. And he's a lot older than his late 50s. He sold his first story 46 years ago. Mike Resnick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:30:49 -0400 From: mstephen@enter.net (Mark Stephen) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Robert Sheckley lawrence@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) wrote: >I haven't found anything dated earlier than 1952 - forty-five years ago, >but I doubt he was selling regularly at fourteen. You're quite right. According to Clute & Nicholls, Sheckley was born in 1928. All I can say is, he was aging bloody gracefully. Who was/is the youngest published SF author? Michael Moorcock comes to mind, who was publishing fanzines at 11 and professionally at 18, but I doubt if that's the record. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:19:01 -0400 From: mstephen@enter.net (Mark Stephen) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Robert Sheckley IMHO, his early stuff was all at least very entertaining, and his novels _Mindswap_ and _Journey of Joenes_ were great. He doesn't seem to have published much since about 1970 except for a weak sequel to the _10th Victim_ and a depressing mystery, _The Alternative Detective_. I'd buy anything of his I could find. Beware of title changes. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 23:15:05 GMT From: s326954@student.uq.edu.au (Nick Caldwell) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Robert Sheckley An addendum: Sheckley wrote an Aliens tie-in novel called "Alien Harvest", which I bought because it was a sufficently intriuging combination of writer and franchise. Sadly it was, erm.. highly generic. Nick Caldwell s326954@student.uq.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 1997 21:41:19 GMT From: dwight@rudolph.com (Dwight Rudolph Jr) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Where are the Lensman Reprints? Some time back I heard that the six Lensman books were going to be reprinted, in trade size, with the original covers. Amazon lists ISBN numbers and says the books will be available in June. Which this is. I asked the Tattered Cover bookstore (Denver) to get them for me, and they said the publisher (Old Earth Books) doesn't answer the phone or return their phone calls. Anyone know what's up? My Pyramid paperbacks need retirement. Dwight ------------------------------ Copyright 1996 SF-Lovers. Individual messages copyrighted by their author and are solely the opinion of that person and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of any other person or organization. For administrative matters (subscribe, unsubscribe, etc.), send mail to: sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu Back issues of SF-Lovers Digest are available via anonymous ftp on sflovers.rutgers.edu in the directory pub/sfl. This directory also has episode guides and other sf-related material. All files are available via interactive ftp, via WWW/Web (URL: http://sflovers.rutgers.edu/) and through a mail server at: sf-lovers-ftp@sflovers.rutgers.edu Send the word "help" to sf-lovers-ftp@sflovers.rutgers.edu in a message by itself for information on how to use the mail server. To get a list of what's available use the command "get 00Index". Commands should always go into the body of the message since the "Subject:" line is ignored. Problems or questions about the ftp mail server should be sent to the administrative address noted above. End of SF-LOVERS Digest *********************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:07:50 -0700 Reply-To: kimselle@loop.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kim Selle Subject: Re: Anita Blake and Strong series women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > > Jill Gillham shared: > > >I've been having a lot of fun with Laurell Hamilton's "Anita Blake, > >Vampire Hunter" series lately. Probably no Big Messages contained within, > >but one of the best take-no-prisoners female characters in print these > >days. Hamilton's got a great way of writing, but it might not be the best > >thing to read if you're squeamish. She describes things pretty > >graphically, and the body count tends to be pretty high. (LH has said that > >one of the reasons why she created Anita was because female detectives in > >stories never got to kill as many people as their male counterparts did.) > > I like these books a lot as well, although they could be improved if her > prose would improve. I think she's a great storyteller, but for me, these > are airplane books, (or light summer reading) where I don't have time to > count how many times she uses exactly the same pronouns or adjectives to > describe something. I think the worst offender in the last book was that > EVERYONE's hair "foamed" over their shoulders. (minor spoiler) Well, that > and she ruined my SOD with the wet jeans.:) > > Of interest in a similar vein (heh heh) I might suggest Tanya Huff's > "Blood" books. Just read the first one in Seattle last weekend, and thought > it was pretty good entertainment. > > > > > >Honestly, I haven't watched the seri (serieses? what's the plural, > >anyways?) since they killed off Tasha Yar, and the character I could most > >closely relate to was Wesley Crusher. (Yeah, I know. I was in high school > >at the time) Deanna Troi and the female doctors were just never allowed to > >do anything interesting, in my view. > That's the same time I quit watching, despite Crusher being a red head > which usually is an asset in a hero of mine. :) > > > > >On a related rant, why aren't the strong female characters ever allowed to > >live? Tasha Yar was written out early in the series, and other characters > >in other popular movies that were seen as strong are all dead by the end > >credits. (Thelma and Louise and Catwoman come to mind) It's like there's a > >message that strong women are fated to face a very high cost for daring to > >be who they wanted to be.) > I like to call this the "Travis McGee" syndrome, after the fictional > amateur PI's illfated girlfriends. > I know this is an old thread, but I'm new to the list and just wanted to address this issue. On the same lines as "strong women are fated to fact a very high cost....", has anyone seen the Captain Planet cartoon on Saturday mornings? The female Gaia, is always getting sick - and has to be rescued from the source of her illness from *Captain* Planet. Now, setting the obvious need for the raising of consciousness about the ecological state of our planet, I think that it's really sad that we are portraying this need of women to be "saved/rescued" by men. Kim Selle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:12:11 -0700 Reply-To: kimselle@loop.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kim Selle Subject: Re: B5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Marie Groppi wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > I truly don't care as long as she isn't paired off with a male, but I > > actually find it interesting to have a telepath around who doesn't want > > to use it. I was galled however that it was never made clear how far > > Ivanova and Talia's relationship got. > > Oh please! Talia, wearing slinky nightgown, rolls over and pats the bed > next to her, looking for Ivanova. That, plus all the innuendo that had > been flying around, -plus- alter-Talia's little farewell speech to > Ivanova? I thought it was made perfectly clear. One does not need to > actually see people naked in bed together to know that they're involved. Not only that, in the episode where DeLenn wanted to have the re-birth ceremony and everyone had to tell a secret, Ivanova told DeLenn that she loved Talia. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:46:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephanie Clarkson Subject: Re: Anita Blake and Strong series women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh, wow. I hadn't had a chance to look at the stuff from this list for a while (like, since subscribing last week). Part of that was because I spent this weekend absorbed in the latest Anita Blake book, picked up on my regular friday night bookstore run (I've gotten predictable; the bookstore person who got me hooked on Tanya Huff's books after I hooked *her* on Anita Blake actually takes her dinner after I visit because she likes talking about books with me so much ;-) I wasn't sure whether it would fit on this list though; thanks for bringing it up. I'm terribly disappointed by the turns that the latest book takes; but I've just decided that whichever male Anita ends up with at the end of a book, it's invariably *not* going to be the one that I spent the book hoping for. Ever. I've switched preferences back and forth between Richard and Jean-Claude and each time she always goes the other way. Yeargh. The latest book also raised a few problems for me; I found Anita's reactions towards the end to be contradictory to a lot of her personality the way she's been set up. I don't want to spoil it yet because it is pretty new still, but....I just found myself unable to accept how the book ends. it *doesn't* fit with everything else about Anita. My other current problem is that apparently, all the books from the first one to the current one take place in slightly under a year. It's too much action for one life, and I'm pretty sure if you work it out Anita is *not* getting enough recovery time between each adventure to heal fully, no matter how much vampiric attention she gets. Anita Blake books satisfy the need for potboiler books for me; I want something high strung, emotional but not involving; they're great weekend books for me, when I want to unwind, let stuff go, and just enjoy a good, tough woman character, a lot of sexual tension, a little mystery and a neat alternate world. >> (LH has said that >> >one of the reasons why she created Anita was because female detectives in >> >stories never got to kill as many people as their male counterparts did.) I really dislike the way she's handling the body count, though. I don't think Anita should be becoming quite so cold-blooded (see above notes about the timespan of the story here). It's too rapid, and it loses believability points for me. >> Of interest in a similar vein (heh heh) I might suggest Tanya Huff's >> "Blood" books. Just read the first one in Seattle last weekend, and thought >> it was pretty good entertainment. More favourite books. And, as a canadian, I must say it pleases me to see books based in Canada selling. For so long they told Canadian writers not to bother, people wouldn't read them. Like a book set in Toronto is going to be any Different from one set in New York to most of the world. It doesn't matter if it's a good story. >> >On a related rant, why aren't the strong female characters ever allowed to >> >live? We don't have any worry about that for Anita or Vicki for that now, do we? ;-) Tasha Yar was written out early in the series, and other characters >> >in other popular movies that were seen as strong are all dead by the end >> >credits. (Thelma and Louise and Catwoman come to mind) Uhm. Considering they're planning a Catwoman movie with Pfieffer, I'd not count her as dead. Stephanie. Never one to be short winded ;-) Oh, and hi. I'm new ;-) |\/| ---- _ Stephanie M. Clarkson..............thespian@sleepingcat.com =(--)=_____ \ Web Designer, Programmer, Developer.....www.sleepingcat.com c___ (______/ PRGrrl, www.trianglewebgrrls.com..............www.chiya.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:19:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephanie Clarkson Subject: Sheri Tepper, and problems with the Arbai Trilogy. (SPOILERS!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" First, I want to say I am a BIG Tepper fan. I love her. She's my favourite writer, hands down; I picked up The Song of Mavin Manyshaped the month it was published when I was thirteen, and I've bought every book of hers on sight since. SHe's one of the most formative things in my life, and I have read all of her books at least twice (Yes, including Family Tree). I pretty much read all her books about twice a year (I read about 200 pages a day even while doing other things. It's a very good thing that I can reread books. My father only reads one book a week to my 4 or 5, but he can't reread books, even years later.) However, this rereading caused me to find what I think might be a problem in the Arbai Trilogy. (I use problem loosely. I still think they're brilliant books, and I intend to keep enjoying them for the reast of my life. She's a fine writer.) Please don't read this if you haven't read Grass, Raising the Stones and Sideshow, please. It ruins something really delicious if you do. Save it and send me mail after you've read them if you want. (ok? ok.) My problem: Grass couldn't have happened, and there would be major changes to the stories of Raising the Stones and Sideshow - because if the Arbai were on Grass long enough to teach the Hippae language, they were there long enough for the Arbai device to affect either the hippae (who were at least as smart as cats, who were proven usable by the web), or the foxen. In the former case, it *might* not have had much effect (the device was supposed to just show you the right thing to do, not force you to do it; the hippae may well have been twisted enough to get pleasure from being contrary even to it), but in the case of the foxen it would have shown them the solution to the problem of the hippae long before humans came to the planet. This starts a long list of 'this couldn't have happened then' that at least undoes Grass (no plague) and the invasion of Hobb's Land in Raising the Stones (no visit from Marjorie to the Baidee to start the religion that made them compelled to invade.). And no Jory in Sideshow to have 'people' to be out and about to have Danizon to leave him, etc. And before anyone hypothesizes that the device doesn't work on the foxen, it clearly does; the Jory-avatar in Sideshow exists because of the need of 'Him'; he is definitely part of the net, or again, Jory wouldn't be in SIdeshow. Any opinions? Stephanie. |\/| ---- _ Stephanie M. Clarkson..............thespian@sleepingcat.com =(--)=_____ \ Web Designer, Programmer, Developer.....www.sleepingcat.com c___ (______/ PRGrrl, www.trianglewebgrrls.com..............www.chiya.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:39:11 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildney Cavalcanti Subject: Aotearoa Electronic Journal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I've been trying to get in touch with the Aotearoa Electronic Journal on , but my messages keep coming back. Would any of you know their new e-mail address? Thanks, Ildney> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:18:23 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Anitra E. Heiberg Lykke" Subject: Re: Feminism/technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:19 16.06.97 -0400, you wrote: >He, She, and It was written by Marge Piercy...plan on comparing with >Frankenstein for a master's thesis dealing with the issues of technology, >feminism, creation of life. Any suggestions? > Hi, Try "Cyborg feminism" by Rosi Braidotti and Nina Lykke(Denmark), I don't know if it exists in english, but it is an interesting collection of articles on feminism and technology. >From new to the list, Anitra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:24:54 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Anitra E. Heiberg Lykke" Subject: FEMINISM-CYBORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:19 16.06.97 -0400, you wrote: >He, She, and It was written by Marge Piercy...plan on comparing with >Frankenstein for a master's thesis dealing with the issues of technology, >feminism, creation of life. Any suggestions? Hi Try "Between monsters, godesses and cyborgs, Feminist confrontations with science, medicine and cyberspace.", edited by Rosi Braidotti and Nina Lykke from Anitra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper, and problems with the Arbai Trilogy. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > First, I want to say I am a BIG Tepper fan. Me too, although not to the degree you are. :-) I read Sideshow first, then Grass, then re-read Grass, read Raising the Stones, then re-read Sideshow (and read other novels in between). I have collected, but not yet read, several of her mysteries. Anyway, I hope that I can phrase this reply to your post well enough to avoid spoilers... If I recall correctly, the Arbai device was created after the Arbai were on Grass--perhaps as a result of their contact with Grass. I don't think the device is present in/on Grass at all. Do you have a reference that contradicts that? Pax, -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:06:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: summer reading Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just finished THE NATURE OF SMOKE by Anne Harris (just out in paperback) which I quite enjoyed ... fast read, nicely paced. I'm now reading FOOL'S WAR by Sarah Zettel. Interesting to me for the way Zettel posited a future Islam. Women still wear the hijab and even purdah, there are still substantial restrictions on female-male interactions, but women are also "allowed" to work outside the home. Did anyone on the list read Zettel's RECLAMATION? Was there a similar depiction of religious belief? Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:06:17 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: B5 Comments: To: kimselle@loop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:12:11 -0700 Kim Selle wrote: > > Susan Marie Groppi wrote: > > > > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > > > I truly don't care as long as she isn't paired off with a male, but I > > > actually find it interesting to have a telepath around who doesn't want > > > to use it. I was galled however that it was never made clear how far > > > Ivanova and Talia's relationship got. > > > > Oh please! Talia, wearing slinky nightgown, rolls over and pats the bed > > next to her, looking for Ivanova. That, plus all the innuendo that had > > been flying around, -plus- alter-Talia's little farewell speech to > > Ivanova? I thought it was made perfectly clear. One does not need to > > actually see people naked in bed together to know that they're involved. > > Not only that, in the episode where DeLenn wanted to have the re-birth > ceremony and everyone had to tell a secret, Ivanova told DeLenn that she > loved Talia. Loving someone and having a phsyical relationship are not necessarily the same thing. Two of the greatest loves of my life were both straight women. One of them barely lets me (or anyone else for that matter) kiss her on the cheek, is this a lesbian relationship? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:08:58 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper, and problems with the Arbai Trilogy. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:57:09 -0400 Allen Briggs wrote: > > First, I want to say I am a BIG Tepper fan. > > Me too, although not to the degree you are. :-) > I read Sideshow first, then Grass, then re-read Grass, read Raising the > Stones, then re-read Sideshow (and read other novels in between). I > have collected, but not yet read, several of her mysteries. > > Anyway, I hope that I can phrase this reply to your post well enough to > avoid spoilers... > > If I recall correctly, the Arbai device was created after the Arbai were > on Grass--perhaps as a result of their contact with Grass. I don't think > the device is present in/on Grass at all. Do you have a reference that > contradicts that? > > Pax, > -allen > > -- > Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com The only other solution that I can offer is evolution is sometimes perverse and not everything happens the way it *should*. I mean, who would have guessed hooves for rock climbing? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:08:05 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Male separatist societies Hi! I haven't gotten the FeministSF list in a little while, so I thought I'd send a test message and also ask a question that's been on my mind: How many Speculative Fiction stories are there with *male* only separatist societies? The Feminist SF biblio lists _Ethan of Athos_ by Bujold. I can think of _The Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal_ by Cordwainer Smith, as well (although his Skopsies are off-camera for most of the story). Are there any others out there, and how do they get around the obvious problem of reproduction? (In _Ethan_ they use ectogenesis, I think, in _Crime and Glory_ it's not really clear). P.S. Anyone else out there in Feminist SF-land read the latest issue of the New York Review of Science FIction with the short and long lists for the Tiptree awards? Comments? Daniel Krashin "My opinions do not represent those of the gummint, in fact they're barely even my opinions..." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:26:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Humor I thought this was relevant and cute. Hope Cascio Thanks to Chip Seraphine for this humor ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This assignment was actually turned in by two English students: In-class Assignment for Wednesday Today we will experiment with a new form called the tandem story. The process is simple. Each person will pair off with the person sitting to his or her immediate right. One of you will then write the first paragraph of a short story. The partner will read the first paragraph and then add another paragraph to the story. The first person will then add a third paragraph, and so on back and forth. Remember to reread what has been written each time in order to keep the story coherent. The story is over when both agree a conclusion has been reached. ---------------------------------------------------------------- By Rebecca and Gary English 44A SMU Creative Writing Prof Miller At first, Laurie couldn't decide which kind of tea she wanted. The camomile, which used to be her favorite for lazy evenings at home, now reminded her too much of Carl, who once said, in happier times, that he liked camomile. But she felt she must now, at all costs, keep her mind off Carl. His possessiveness was suffocating, and if she thought about him too much her asthma started acting up again. So camomile was out of the question. Meanwhile, Advance Sergeant Carl Harris, leader of the attack squadron now in orbit over Skylon 4, had more important things to think about than the neuroses of an air-headed asthmatic bimbo named Laurie with whom he had spent one sweaty night over a year ago. "A.S. Harris to Geostation 17," he said into his transgalactic communicator. "Polar orbit established. No sign of resistance so far..." But before he could sign off a bluish particle beam flashed out of nowhere and blasted a hole through his ship's cargo bay. The jolt from the direct hit sent him flying out of his seat and across the cockpit. He bumped his head and died almost immediately, but not before he felt one last pang of regret for psychologically brutalizing the one woman who had ever had feelings for him. Soon afterwards, Earth stopped its pointless hostilities towards the peaceful farmers of Skylon 4. "Congress Passes Law Permanently Abolishing War and Space Travel." Laurie read in her newspaper one morning. The news simultaneously excited her and bored her. She stared out the window, dreaming of her youth -- when the days had passed unhurriedly and carefree, with no newspapers to read, no television to distract her from her sense of innocent wonder at all the beautiful things around her. "Why must one lose one's innocence to become a woman?" she pondered wistfully. Little did she know, but she has less than 10 seconds to live. Thousands of miles above the city, the Anu'udrian mothership launched the first of its lithium fusion missiles. The dim-witted wimpy peaceniks who pushed the Unilateral Aerospace Disarmament Treaty through Congress had left Earth a defenseless target for the hostile alien empires who were determined to destroy the human race. Within two hours after the passage of the treaty the Anu'udrian ships were on course for Earth, carrying enough firepower to pulverize the entire planet. With no one to stop them they swiftly initiated their diabolical plan. The lithium fusion missile entered the atmosphere unimpeded. The President, in his top-secret mobile submarine headquarters on the ocean floor off the coast of Guam, felt the inconceivably massive explosion which vaporized Laurie and 85 million other Americans. The President slammed his fist on the conference table. "We can't allow this! I'm going to veto that treaty! Let's blow 'em out of the sky!" This is absurd. I refuse to continue this mockery of literature. My writing partner is a violent, chauvinistic, semi-literate adolescent. Yeah? Well, you're a self-centered tedious neurotic whose attempts at writing are the literary equivalent of Valium. You total #!$*&. Stupid %&#$!. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:53:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Male separatist societies In-Reply-To: <11719384@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi! On the question about *male* only separatist societies. I have not read a book on that, but there is an East-European (Poland) movie _Kingsize_. It's about a totalitarian male-only society of dwarfs, who live among humans, but stay unnoticed because they are about an inch tall. They reproduce by taking a drink that makes them human size for 24 hours, and mating with human females. However, all male babies become dwarfs soon after birth. The drink preparation is a top-government secret, and access to it is highly restricted. Therefore, most of men in the society have never seen a woman in their lives. It's a nice film, even though I don't know if it would be easy to understand if you did not grow up in a Communist country. However, you might enjoy it. By the way, have anyone read _Master and Margarita_ by Mikhail Bulgakov? If yes, please let me know what you think about it. Thanks. Marina On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Daniel L Krashin wrote: > Hi! I haven't gotten the FeministSF list in a little while, so I thought I'd > send a test message and also ask a question that's been on my mind: > > How many Speculative Fiction stories are there with *male* only separatist > societies? The Feminist SF biblio lists _Ethan of Athos_ by Bujold. > I can think of _The Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal_ by Cordwainer > Smith, as well (although his Skopsies are off-camera for most of the story). > > Are there any others out there, and how do they get around the obvious > problem of reproduction? (In _Ethan_ they use ectogenesis, I think, in > _Crime and Glory_ it's not really clear). > > > Daniel Krashin > "My opinions do not represent those of the gummint, in fact they're barely > even my opinions..." > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:30:55 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Sheri Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I'm new to the list, not an academic, but love reading SF. I'd not read any Tepper before, and took "Grass" on holiday with me. It was OK, but seemed to cram in too many bits of sub-plot and to meander on forever. Some of the ideas were quite interesting, but I reckon the book could have been reduced by a third and the pace tightened up a bit. Still, it was OK for a holiday read. Cheers SC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:29:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bruce Barbarasch / Kate Haas Subject: The Sparrow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I'm new to the group and have enjoyed seeing what other people are saying about SF. I just finished The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell, and enjoyed it very much. I am interested to know what others think about this book. For those who haven't read it, it is about a secret Jesuit mission to the first known other planet with life. The characters are quite interesting,some of them representing (to a non-Christian like myself, anyway) the best aspects of that religion. Another question: U.K Le Guin speaks highly of Samuel Delaney. Can anyone recommend one of his books? I started Neveryona, and found it Most Tedious. Kate ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:22:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Master i Margarita In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Marina, I read this in university, oh, 16 years ago. Read it in translation and took a stab at reading some of it in Russian (which was my major along with French). I loved it, but the memory's gone very dim. I only remember some pointed and funny humour and (can this be right?) a cat in boots swinging from a chandelier. I also read Yevgeny Zamyatin's _We_ but my memory of that is even dimmer. -nalo "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:23:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Monica Gaudio Subject: My apologies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My mailbox crashed. And I lost how to get off this list. It's a very interesting discussion, however, I'm just getting too much mail. If someone could send me a message on how to get off the list, I'd really appreciate it. Monica ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:36:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Good Delaney Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Heh. Personally: Dhalgren is my favorite. Then, Babel-17, then Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand. The collection of short stories, Driftglass, is also excellent. I also happen to like Mad Man--but that is *not* science fiction, nor for the weak of stomach. >Another question: U.K Le Guin speaks highly of Samuel Delaney. Can >anyone recommend one of his books? I started Neveryona, and found it >Most Tedious. >Kate > Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Good Delaney In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970626175906.1fe75a44@kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Heh. Personally: Dhalgren is my favorite. Then, Babel-17, then Stars in my >Pocket Like Grains of Sand. The collection of short stories, Driftglass, is >also excellent. I also happen to like Mad Man--but that is *not* science >fiction, nor for the weak of stomach. > >>Another question: U.K Le Guin speaks highly of Samuel Delaney. Can >>anyone recommend one of his books? I started Neveryona, and found it >>Most Tedious. >>Kate >> > >Heather >=) > > >hmaclean@kent.edu >http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ Heather, Try _The Einstein Intersection_. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:46:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Good Delaney Heather - Tell me more about each of these. I'm looking to read more Delaney, and I'd especially like to find some extreme examples of feminist ecotopia in his work. Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Heh. Personally: Dhalgren is my favorite. Then, Babel-17, then Stars >in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand. The collection of short stories, >Driftglass, is excellent. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:46:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Samuel Delaney On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:29:30 -0700 Bruce Barbarasch / Kate Haas >Another question: U.K Le Guin speaks highly of Samuel Delaney. Can >anyone recommend one of his books? I started Neveryona, and found it >Most Tedious. >Kate Kate - Try _Triton_ ,a.k.a., when first published in 1972 (?) _Trouble on Triton_. It's all I've read of Delaney, but it's an excellent book. Delaney has training in the hard sciences, and he likes to incorporate a lot of that mindset into his works. For example, in _Triton_ he outlines an entire system of a new science called metalogic, but most of the description of it is in one of several appendices. What was tedious about _Neveryona_? I have a feeling it might be this extrapolation Delaney does in regards to certain subjects, especially those scientific. Try to just speed read through them, if they're not what you're looking for. The worlds Delaney creates are rich in culture as well as technology, and I look forward to reading more of his work. I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions about _Triton_. Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Master i Margarita In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nalo, thanks for response._Master and Margarita_ was my favorite book as a teenager. It's about Satan visiting Moscow in early 30's, where official policy was atheism, so no one believes in God or Satan altogether. He causes quite a bit of trouble, but authorities either try to ignore him, or explain everything as magic tricks. Another story line is about a woman who sells her soul in order to rescue her lover, a writer locked up in a mental institution for writing a book about Christ. It was probably the first book I read where a woman rescued a man, not vice versa. The cat you remembered was part of Satan's suite, he was swinging on a chandeliere while shooting at KGB agents who came to arrest the whole crowd. They were shooting back, but nobody got hurt, so the incident was declared a case of mass hypnosis and hallucination. Zamiatin's _We_ is about an anti-utopical future society, where everything is strictly regulated, so even when people want to have sex, they need to get a special coupon for that. The straightforward, law-obiding main character meets a woman that introduces him to underground world of rebels. _We_ is often compared with _The Great New World_. However, it's interesting that in _We_ men and women are equal, and in the other one -- well, alpha (highest rank) males are all engineers and scientists, and alpha females turn bottles with fetuses on the conveyor line. Marina On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > Marina, I read this in university, oh, 16 years ago. Read it in > translation and took a stab at reading some of it in Russian (which was > my major along with French). I loved it, but the memory's gone very > dim. I only remember some pointed and funny humour and (can this be > right?) a cat in boots swinging from a chandelier. I also read Yevgeny > Zamyatin's _We_ but my memory of that is even dimmer. > > -nalo > > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the > stars/Were near." > -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:34:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Good Delaney In-Reply-To: <19970626.184723.12278.1.avs5@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > Tell me more about each of these. I'm looking to read more Delaney, and > I'd especially like to find some extreme examples of feminist ecotopia in > his work. NH: Unfortunately, I'd say then that the Neveryona series is the one you want. Forget which one in the series, but I think you're looking for a chapter with a name like "The Tale of Old Venn." Also the title where the character of Raven shows up, the woman dressed in black who carries a double-edged knife, and who calls the land where she finds herself "this strange and terrible place." -nalo > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:15:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Re: The Sparrow Oh, I *loved* this book. Highly, highly recommended, and if you ever have a chance to hear the author speak, don't miss the opportunity - she is really delightful. Witty, insightful, extremely interesting. (I heard her twice at WisCon.) There is also going to be a sequel coming out next year, _Children of God._ Anne and D.W. were my favorite characters. Emilio was, I thought, just slightly *too* perfect, *too* selfless, so that while I felt sympathy for the terrible things that happened to him, he was also so incredibly saintly that it was hard to feel *with* the character, to think "yes, that could be me." Isn't there something in Plato about how reading tragedies induces an emotional catharsis for the reader (or audience, actually, since he was talking about drama) but it only works if the hero/ine is not impossibly heroic, but heroic with human limitations, so that the reader is able to identify with him/her. It's been a while since I read that - I'll have to look up the reference. Ruth Ann ---------- From: Bruce Barbarasch / Kate Haas[SMTP:brucekat@PACBELL.NET] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 3:30 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: The Sparrow Hello, I'm new to the group and have enjoyed seeing what other people are saying about SF. I just finished The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell, and enjoyed it very much. I am interested to know what others think about this book. For those who haven't read it, it is about a secret Jesuit mission to the first known other planet with life. The characters are quite interesting,some of them representing (to a non-Christian like myself, anyway) the best aspects of that religion. Another question: U.K Le Guin speaks highly of Samuel Delaney. Can anyone recommend one of his books? I started Neveryona, and found it Most Tedious. Kate ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:17:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Neveryona Nalo - Thanks for the referral, but why "unfortunately"? Is there something dreadfully wrong with this _Neveryona_ series so that everyone dislikes it? Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:34:51 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson writes: >On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > >> Tell me more about each of these. I'm looking to read more Delaney, >>and I'd especially like to find some extreme examples of feminist >>ecotopia in his work. > >NH: Unfortunately, I'd say then that the Neveryona series is the one >you want. Forget which one in the series, but I think you're looking for >a chapter with a name like "The Tale of Old Venn." Also the title where >the character of Raven shows up, the woman dressed in black who >carries a double-edged knife, and who calls the land where she finds herself >"this strange and terrible place." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:11:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Neveryona In-Reply-To: <19970627.202514.10318.2.avs5@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Got my headlines mixed up. I thought you were the one who had found _Neveryona_ "dreadfully plodding." I love it unreservedly. The Tale of Old Venn (if that's what it's indeed called) taught me some invaluable things about money and what it stands for, and the reasons why you should never mistake a mirror image for an accurate representation of the actual thing. Not to mention how easy it is to look at a society from outside it and completely misunderstand its power structures. None of which sounds exciting, but the way that Delany wrote it turned my crank, I can tell you. -nalo On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > Nalo - > > Thanks for the referral, but why "unfortunately"? Is there something > dreadfully wrong with this _Neveryona_ series so that everyone dislikes > it? > > Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:34:51 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson > writes: > >On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > > > >> Tell me more about each of these. I'm looking to read more Delaney, > >>and I'd especially like to find some extreme examples of feminist > >>ecotopia in his work. > > > >NH: Unfortunately, I'd say then that the Neveryona series is the one > >you want. Forget which one in the series, but I think you're looking > for > >a chapter with a name like "The Tale of Old Venn." Also the title where > >the character of Raven shows up, the woman dressed in black who > >carries a double-edged knife, and who calls the land where she finds > herself > >"this strange and terrible place." > "He walked so far/On stilts of songs, of masqueraded story, that the stars/Were near." -Kamau Brathwaite, "Jou'vert" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:45:17 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Neveryona In-Reply-To: <19970627.202514.10318.2.avs5@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > Nalo - > > Thanks for the referral, but why "unfortunately"? Is there something > dreadfully wrong with this _Neveryona_ series so that everyone dislikes > it? > > Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, not _everyone_ dislikes the series! But it isn't an easy read, and it is slow, and towards the end it loses itself a little when it makes the parallels between the fantasy world and the AIDS epidemic too overt. But there are some wonderful passages in at least the first two books in the series, and anyone with a love-hate relationship with traditional heroic fantasy ought to appreciate the way in which Delany subverts the usual stereotypes. Though it is so difficult to sympathise with Delany's heroes, ALL of whom are drawn to young men who bite their nails to extinction...! I must say, if I was recommending Delany to anyone, I wouldn't recommend starting with Neveryona. _Babel-17_ is a wonderfully cleverspace opera; _Triton_ is a marvellous utopia; and _Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand_ is, I might argue on a good day, possibly the best science fiction novel of the last thirty years! Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE ..............................................................................