"FEMINISTSF LOG9707B" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970707061947.0106711c@idirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, David Silver wrote: > Then one day she got seriously ill and spent three weeks in the hospital. > When she got home I initiated our litany, "What are you going to do when > you grow up?" Her reply was "I'm going to be a nurse." I asked her why and > she said "Men are doctors and girls are nurses", which is what she had > observed in the hospital. I immediately scoured Toronto for a female > pediatrician and spent the next fifteen years encouraging her to pursue her > own interests without regard to society's, or my expectations. She is > entering law school this coming fall. > I will always be greatful to my dad for treating me as an intelligent human being and not a "girl". He went to great lengths to be sure I would be an independent person and not so dependant, like my mother. It was him, and not my mother, who showed me all the infinite possibilities in life. When I was only about 9 years old he introduced me to Ray Bradybury (gave me a copy of "The Wicked This Way Come") and I was nuts about Bradbury for a long long time. In fact he was a great influence in my own writing. My brother was never inclined toward anything intellectual or cultural and my father put his efforts into encouraging my creativity and interests along those lines. I did not marry until I was 34, which was , to me, a great advantage. When I think of all that I would have missed had I married in my early twenties, like to many others. Lori ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:20:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Ah, I can hear everyone groaning now "Not ANOTHER reply to this subject!" Or maybe I just hear the sounds of people deleting me off their email list after glancing at the subject. But here goes: I am a PhD candidate in electrical engineering. My emphasis is micro-electro-mechanical systems (MEMS). I attend UC Davis. I got my MS in Elec. Engineering from Berkeley studying Robotics. I love science fiction; I can't remember not loving it. My mother is a librarian, so I was introduced to the joys of reading early on. I'd love to write it, and I have dabbled in that, but, honestly, I don't have the time to put into that tremendous endeavor. I am very impressed especially by the published authors on this list! I have only published technical papers in my field. I am very happy I found this list, since my feminism didn't blossom until early adult-hood and now I wear "feminist" as a badge of honor! :) And what could possibly be better, combining feminism with science and speculative fiction!? Keep the cool stuff coming, Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amanda Clarke Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Kate Bolin wrote: > > I am beginning to wonder what type of people sign up for this > list...Do we have a lot of professors? College students? Random people? > Writers? Computer geeks? Et cetera? Random Person: I'm a statistician. I have degrees in statistics (surprisingly) and resource management. I work for Statistics NZ (again, surprisingly) in the Govt Sector division. I'm not a student, a college professor, nor do I write sf. But I have enjoyed watching sf on tv. My earliest memories of TV programmes were: Star Trek, Logan's Run, Dr Who, Space 1999, UFO etc. And I've also been reading sf since I was young - picking up my sister's interest. Like a lot of people I also read Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury, Ursula Le Guin, Andre Norton & others. But lamented the lack of good strong feminist characters. So, I welcome the opportunity to discover women sf writers and feminist science fiction. Has anybody read _The Net_ by Loren MacGregor? Amanda __________________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:03:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Drawn out of lurking by the bravery of others, I'd like to introduce myself. Right now I'm a budding student (again; got an MA 2 years ago), starting Ph.D work this fall in children's literature. I'm married, with 4 cats (my husband is also on this list--Allen Briggs). I'm also a neophyte computer person, mastering HTML and the creation of web pages, and planning on learning VRML soon. I've been a feminist since I entered college, but I recently have had revelations about just how subtle the oppression of women really is, even among those who are learned and try not to support that behavior. This revelation came right before I read Nicola Griffith's Ammonite, which had a profound effect on me (I highly recommend it). I've appreciated the thoughtful discussions and recommendations given on this list (I've been lurking since March), and they've helped me greatly in my thoughts and my research. I've only become entranced with fantasy and SF in the past few years, become a fan of Star Trek in the past 2 years, and become a fan of Bab5 in the past week. =-> My Ph.D work will focus on Celtic mythology and YA fantasy and SF, looking for a more feminist alternative to the heroic quest narrative structure in the mythology, and how that may be incorporated in contemporary British YA fantasy and SF novels, depending on the author's gender. I also research Japanese children's books dealing with WWII and the bombings, and children's hypermedia and theories of children and technology. If anyone's interested in these topics, I'd love to discuss them off-list. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Peth, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:10:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sean, University of Oklahoma is in Norman. It's the school where Anita Hill was a law professor until they forced her to quit in the middle of last Fall. Marina On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Marina, > Is the U at Stillwater or Norman? > > -Sean > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:49:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: DeColores project addy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://www.netgsi.com/~obelesk/DeColores.html Enjoy... (nalo passed it on to me, so it's only fair that i pass it on as well... =) Heather (avid reader of sf, all kinds--teach french sf and surrealism, supremely interested in the links between language and visualization in the reading process...) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:39:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: joanna goltzman Subject: Re: Imperfect matriarchal societies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This message was mailed to me, so I'm forwarding it to the list -- Joanna >On 6 Jul 97 , joanna goltzman wrote: >> One thing I really liked about _The Maerlande Chronicles_ is that it >> is about a matriarchal society with problems. The society's >> drawbacks make it believable and more interesting, to me, at least, >> than a "perfect" society (utopia). Anyone know of more imperfect >> matriarchal societies I could read about? > >What about 'The Women's Shore' (if that is the English title) by >Pamela Sargent? It plays in a post-catastrophique future in which the >women live in comfortable cities, the men, controlled by the women, >outside. The control goes so far that the men do not even know about >it (they think the women are goddesses). However, the point of the >story is not to show how a women-only society works. Most of the >book plays outside of the cities. I liked the book a lot. > >The next try is, of course, 'Ammonite' by Nicola Griffith. I have >read the book several times and love it. > > >On the 'Who's on the list' thread: > >I am a mechanical engineer who works in the field of the >environmental impact assessment of energy systems. Parallelly I try >to finish my Ph.D. thesis (getting a Ph.D. in Germany works >differently from the U.S., one is (more or less) fully employed by >the University and does research projects, no course work)). I also >work unpaid in the Stuttgart rape center. I am nearly 33, German (any >other Germans out there on the list?), heterosexual, a feminist for >some years. My first 'feminist' science fiction was 'The left hand of >darkness', which made a huge impression on me at 16. I rediscovered >feminst science fiction 4 years ago and by now have read a lot of it. >Thanks to Laura Quilter, her homepage helped me a lot in hunting down >the relevant titles in the bookstores and libraries. Somebody else >stated in her introduction, that she has never met a fan of feminist >science fiction in person. The same is (nearly) true for me. I am >really glad that I found this discussion list. > >Petra > >** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:42:43 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bronwen Turner Organization: NCHECR Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970707094152.006aa5a0@tezcat.com> Neil Rest said You DO know the Worldcon is going back to Melbourne in two years, don't you? I ask just to double-check; it would be too much of a shame to get the news too late! Neil Neil, Oh dear, do I have to express my ignorance so soon after de-lurking? I have no idea what Worldcon is, or that it will be in Melbourne in a couple of years. Is these a contact for more information?. I'm always keen on a good talkfest!! Bronwen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:43:10 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bronwen Turner Organization: NCHECR Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <199707070556.PAA13386@sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU> Amanda Elliot said Hi all I'm also 'de-lurking' I only found out about this list a few weeks ago so I guess I'm a newbie too. I'm a postgrad student (Sociology) at the Uni of New SOuth Wales (Sydney, Australia) and have been reading SF and fantasy since I was a kid. I think my mum was petrified I would start to read those teenage romance novels, and quickly went on the offensive with Tolkien & Susan Cooper. I have never looked back! My tastes are fairly eclectic and while I have read some of the classic SF/ utopian books (aswell as being a rampant star trek fan), its mainly fantasy that I'm into and can never find enough good feminist books or even strong women characters to read about. I'm in the final year of my doctoral thesis so I never really find the time to read as much as I'd like to anyway. I'm also involved in an organisation called The Women's Library, a volunteer run, non-funded feminist library (with a collection of over 12000 books that have all been donated). It has a reasonable collection of SF/fantasy books, that I'm slowly working my way through. I'm really enjoying the discussions Cheers Mandy Amanda Elliot Social Policy Research Centre University of New South Wales Kensington, NSW 2052 ph: 385 3845 fax: 385 1049 Mandy, I was wondering last night whether there were any other Sydneysiders on the list, as I was going to suggest that we start a reading group. I can see that you won't be a starter until after the thesis is finished, but maybe you'll be interested in some recreational discussion then. Any one else interested?? Bronwen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:08:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: finding . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm going to be doing my Ph.D work at the University of Wales, Cardiff starting this September. I can't participate in the web work (sigh) but I'd be willing to search for, procure, and ship British books that people want. Elizabeth On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Laura Quilter wrote: >Actually, people have suggested this to me via correspondence regarding >the feminist-sf web pages. I don't have the time to point into organizing >it, but I do suspect that there is interest, especially for trans-oceanic >exchanges. I know that I would be very, very willing to pay for copies of >ILLICIT PASSAGE by Alice Nunn (from Women's Redress Press in Australia) if >only I could get some out here. > >If someone else wants to do the work I'll be happy to provide whatever >supporting services (web space, for instance) are required. > >On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > >> So for a while, I've been wondering about suggesting to this list some sort >> of book-exchange or shoppping-service arrangement. I have no particular >> organizational details in mind, more general friendly functionality. I >> recently got a good copy of _Left Hand of Darkness_, with the original >> Dillon cover; early Delaney turns up regularly; there's often a bunch of >> Tepper. There was a complete run of the _Orbit_ series on the specials >> shelf not too long ago. >> >> What do people think? -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Peth, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:28:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Master i Margarita Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nalo, I really meant _Brave New World_. I always have trouble with original titles becouse I read most of them in Russian, and they often change the title while translating the book. I never read _1984_, though. Isn't it by George Orwell? It might be funny, but when I read _Brave New World_ (I was about 12) I found the society there strangely attractive. The fact that they all were happy, because each caste was convinced that their place in hierarchy was the best one. I don't think so anymore but I used to. I also liked the fact that the most intelligent people, the one who chose to rebel against status quo, were not killed, but instead became part of those who ruled the world. It was kind of ironic that the intention to destroy the system was the reason to be put on the top of it. If anyone read the book please tell me what you think about it. Marina On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote:> > > Zamiatin's _We_ is about an anti-utopical future society, where > > everything is strictly regulated. > >_We_ is often compared with _The Great New World_. > > NH: _Brave New World?_ That's one I have still to read. I was told that > _We_ was the inspiration for H. G. Wells's _1984._ > > -nalo > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:19:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nancy A. Horn" Subject: Re: meeting other femsf readers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just forwarded your comment to Vonda. She'll be very happy to hear you liked the book. nancy At 02:59 PM 7/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >>nancy commented: >>Imagine finding you here. I'm the friend of Vonda McIntyre's. Remember me. >> >>buzz buzz > >See? We may be scattered world wide, but it IS possible for two or more of >us to meet! (To sorta comment on an earlier comment...) > >Speaking of Vonda, her new work, _The Moon and the Sun_, is the most >compelling novel I've read this summer!! > > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com > > www.crl.com/~yashmak/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <199707071953.PAA22943@mail.med.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A roll call? Okay I'm an English professor at the University of Wisconsin-Stout--middle-aged, hetro, white, male--I teach science fiction and children's literature and write about both with some regularity. Just finished teaching a course on SF and gender. Just wrote an essay called Ophelia Triumphant: The Survival of Teenaged Girls in Recent SF by Octavia Butler and Jack Womack, which will be published next year. The essay reflects my recent reading of Mary Pipher's Reviving Ophelia and the fact that I have a 10 year old daughter who's already on the ragged edge of puberty. I guess I was a feminist long before I was consciously aware of the concept. My mother has degrees in math and physics, worked on the Manhattan project during WWII, and later taught in the Chicago Public Schools. I grew up in a middle-class Jewish neighborhood where all the girls I knew and eventually dated simply assumed that they were going to college and then on to professional level jobs. As a kid and young adult I don't doubt that I was occasionally guilty of the kind of casual sexism that was so ubiquitous in the 50s, 60s and 70s, but I think that, on a gut level, I always pretty much assumed that women were as smart and competent as men. By the time I was in graduate school any last vestiges of obvious sexism were generally pretty much beaten out of me by various female friends and colleagues. Now my wife and daughter handle that job. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Lynn has a new book due out in the fall NH: She does?! O, frabjous day! I'm chortling, I'm chortling. Any idea what the title is? I own all her others, and am occasionally still despondent that she didn't seem to be writing adult fiction any more. For a straight, middle-class brown girl, I enjoy her work immensely. She was a real revelation to me when I began to discover feminist writers. Imagine--other possibilities than a hubby and kids and a two-car garage! So *many* more other possibilities. Woo-hoo! Okay, I'll calm down now. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: <199707071953.PAA22943@mail.med.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Having spent 35 years of my life consorting with SF people, and a smaller, but still significant part of my life hanging out with feminists, without ever hearing the name of Margaret Cavendish (1623-1673) invoked, I think that it's amazing that the authors of two consecutive, but unrelated posts, Anastasia and Nalo, have mentioned her. I did part of my dissertation on her fantasy poetry. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:19:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Williams Subject: who's on the list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm on the list and I am a READER who can't get books easily enough to suit me and who searches for fiction that imagines how we can all get out from under the oppression and pain that dogs most of us on this planet. also I'm an admirer of Laura Q's industriousness and creativity viz: www.uic.edu/~lmdoyle and the editor of a series of books on technology and jobs (one out, two forthcoming): http://cs-www.uchicago.edu/discussions/cpsr/jobtech/job-tech.html kate --- Kate Williams University of Toledo Community and Technical College Project Coordinator, Toledo Technology Academy kwillia8@uoft02.utoledo.edu til late June: (419) 531-8340 x205, fax (419) 531-8412 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:55:47 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bronwen Turner Organization: NCHECR Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Sean Johnston said Bronwen, Myself, I like Rom's wife (what's her name again?). She's strong, but in such an approachable way, like you could actually hang out with her, have food fights, that sort of thing and still know she's got your back when toe comes to toe. Major Kira's pretty cool, even more so than Dax. On the Voyager show, I'm into the half-Klingon woman played by Roxann Biggs-Dawson, whose character name I also don't remember. -Sean Sean, In Australia we haven't seen the lastest series of DS9, so we haven't been introduced to Rom's wife yet. I'll wait in anticipation. B'Ellana Torres is the name of the Klingon in Voyager. She's also terrific, as is Kira. I s'pose I find Ro Laren the most appealing as she was only in STNG for a short period and as such, she remained a fairly tough character. In the writers' attempts to create more complex roles in Trek they sometimes taken the edge of the female characters. Apologies for starting another (short) Trek thread. Bronwen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Master i Margarita Comments: To: MARINA YERESHENKO In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > Nalo, > > title while translating the book. I never read _1984_, though. Isn't it > by George Orwell? NH: Damn, yeah, it is. I don't even have the excuse of advancing age, not really. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:54:34 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Moltz Subject: Readercon Dear Nalo, and anyone else with information: Since I live in the Boston area, could you please send any information on Readercon, i.e.times/places/authors appearing/contact information? Thanks a lot, Sandy Moltz ssm@pdd8.ae.ge.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:40:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Ammonite In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I'm still up in the air as to whether or not I want to find this book. I think it will just come down to if I wake up early enough on a Saturday to make my way over to the library and read it. Kate Bolin ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The computer is not a penis. Don't let men treat it like one." Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:18:43 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: book exchange/shopping service In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970707091429.006aa5a0@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:14 AM 7/7/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: >So for a while, I've been wondering about suggesting to this list some sort >of book-exchange or shopping-service arrangement. I have no particular >organizational details in mind, more general friendly functionality. I think a book exchange/shopping service would be great! I live in Mexico (in the U.S. now, for the summer), and was delighted to find this list ... but how frustrating it will be to read ABOUT all these great books and not be able to get them once I return. I, for one, would be willing to put in some time organizing and maintaining such a service. I am learning HTML and I'd be happy to build some pages, since Laura so kindly offers space on this server, and Maryelizabeth toots her own horn (-: I loved it!!) Holly Yasui ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:18:16 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: Women writers of color In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:01 AM 7/7/97 -0500, Kym Ragusa wrote: >I'm also an interracial woman of color, and I'm interested in SF that >breaks down rigid notions of identity (race, gender, sexuality, nation, >etc). I have a real soft spot for shapeshifter characters in particular! >Can anyone recommend other books by SF writers of color? I read an interesting book by Linda Nagata, whom I assume is Japanese American, called *The Bohr Maker.* It's a cyberpunkish (?? if cyberpunk is what I think it is) story set in futuristic Tokyo. Doesn't come close to Butler's incredible range of issues and insights (*Kindred* and the *Xenogenesis* trilogy really blew me away), but she's the only other identifiable woman of color science fiction writer I've come across in my very unstructured reading. Oh, I just remembered, have you read Starhawk's *The Fifth Sacred Thing*? Starhawk is a "Jewish witch" so I guess that counts. Most of the characters in that novel are people of color and she does deal with race, gender, sexual, and national identity along with alternative family structures, pacifism/militarism, collectivism/anarchism, democracy/authoritarianism, lots of juicy political stuff. I think she's a fascinating thinker (Marxist pagan) and a very good writer. I hope this thread continues, because as a Japanese American living in Mexico (I'm in the U.S. right now, but return to San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato this fall), I'm also very interested in this area. Also, the URL for the De Colores bibliography of science fiction writers of color is: http://www.netgsi.com/users/obelesk/Bibcolores.html Holly Yasui ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: who's on the list In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970708131907.0075e9dc@uoft02.utoledo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Kate Williams wrote: > I'm on the list and I am a READER who can't get books easily enough to suit > me and who searches for fiction that imagines how we can all get out from > under the oppression and pain that dogs most of us on this planet. > > also I'm an admirer of Laura Q's industriousness and creativity viz: > > www.uic.edu/~lmdoyle gracias but the url is: http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ ... probably with the /femsf/ at the end, too. > > and the editor of a series of books on technology and jobs (one out, two > forthcoming): > > http://cs-www.uchicago.edu/discussions/cpsr/jobtech/job-tech.html > > > kate > > --- > Kate Williams > University of Toledo Community and Technical College > Project Coordinator, Toledo Technology Academy > kwillia8@uoft02.utoledo.edu > til late June: (419) 531-8340 x205, fax (419) 531-8412 > Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:52:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: delay in messages Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I received a notice in my mail that feministsf had exceeded 50 messages yesterday (the default limit) and that a number of messages from yesterday were delayed. I've increased the maximum number of messages so this shouldn't be happening but I'll go ahead and add that I'm stunned! Anyway, apologies for the delay and if your mail didn't get in it should be now; if there are problems let me know. list-mistress, laura quilter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:13:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Comments: To: Peggy Hamilton In-Reply-To: <33BDCEE1.7F46@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII So wqho is on this list? I'm Farah Mendlesohn, I'm a cat lover, teach American history to undergrads and specialise in religious history (quakers) and science fiction. I'm also assistant editor of Foundation and we have a very pro-feminist policy so if you are thinking of writing anything, think of us. . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:36:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: _The Fifth Sacred Thing_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I just finished reading it, and I'm still not sure if I thought it was good. Maybe it's because I'm not too terribly fond of eco-feminist utopias, or maybe because it just didn't feel very realistic to me. I guess it's because I had never really dealt with pagan/communistic/hippie until I got to college. I guess one thing that irked me about the book was the almost condescending attitude it had towards gay men. They were in a separate part of town. They were always wearing costume jewelry and other tacky garments. It was almost like....they were just being relegated to being trivial. And why wasn't there a women-only space? Why did the faerie men have their own little part of town and the separatist women didn't? Why did I get the feeling that Starhawk was more or less trivializing gay men because they didn't sleep with women, who are embodiments of the goddess? Sorry about my ranting and raving. I got very little sleep last night and this has been bugging me for a while. Kate Bolin ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The computer is not a penis. Don't let men treat it like one." Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Finding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My avocation is out-of-print and rare book scouting. I specialize in science fiction, scholarly and technical books. Used science fiction books are of three general types, 1. pristine first editions with perfect dust jackets, these are much sought after by collectors and usually cost as much or more than when first sold. 2. Rare titles, like "Flowers for Algernon", usually first editions hard cover or paperback, also very collectable. 3. Books which are uncollectable, book club editions, worn, torn, or missing dust jackets, library copies, marked remainders, etc. -- reading copies. As a book scout I live to find 1's and 2's, but I see and pick up a lot of 3's, just today I picked up Arthur C. Clarke's A FALL OF MOONDUST, 1961 in excellent condition but no collector will touch it as it is a stamped, library copy sold for downsizing reasons. If you are looking for a title, reading copies and/or collectables (I have some Sheri Tepper golden oldies for example), let me know. If I don't have it, I can look for it. Toronto is a gold mine for science fiction and detective novels as we get both British and American editions sold here. Reading copies usually cost about the same as a paperback + four dollars surface mail in US and Canada. Happy Reading David Silver 189 McMorran Crescent Thornhill, Ontario L4J 3C8 (905) 731-4063 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Women writers of color In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970708231816.0069ebe0@m3.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Okay, after much searching, the DeColors page is at: http://www.netgsi.com/~obelesk/DeColored.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The computer is not a penis. Don't let men treat it like one." Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:58:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: book exchange/shopping service In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970708231843.00686d74@m3.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Holly Yasui wrote: > At 09:14 AM 7/7/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: > >So for a while, I've been wondering about suggesting to this list some sort > >of book-exchange or shopping-service arrangement. I have no particular > >organizational details in mind, more general friendly functionality. > > I think a book exchange/shopping service would be great! I live in Mexico > (in the U.S. now, for the summer), and was delighted to find this list ... > but how frustrating it will be to read ABOUT all these great books and not > be able to get them once I return. > > I, for one, would be willing to put in some time organizing and maintaining > such a service. I am learning HTML and I'd be happy to build some pages, > since Laura so kindly offers space on this server, and Maryelizabeth toots > her own horn (-: I loved it!!) Great. Maybe a basic page would include some booksellers (I would prefer to focus on independent booksellers) for rare & out-of-print & imported & sf stuff; also a list of willing acquisitions contacts & whether they want exchange or money (and in what currency); and finally a list of "titles wanted" with contact info. There will be element of financial risk involved, obviously, so that should be clear to anyone, and listed on the page - it's a good-faith honor system. Probably also a note that people should really try their used/out-of-print/import bookstores first. I don't have any other ideas - does that sound like a good way to handle it? Maybe we can start that way and see how busy it gets to decide if a more formal structure is demanded. Holly, if you create the basic web page and send it to me (lauramd@uic.edu) I'll put it up and post the URL. As soon as I can (next couple of months?) I'm going to purchase web space and provide accounts on it - at that point you could edit the page directly. In the meantime this won't be too awkward. When you're compiling the info from people who've volunteered thus far to be contacts let me know. I'll be a US-midwest contact (but there should be more than one of us since so much SF comes out in the US) - will happily send copies of stuff overseas for exchange or US$. > > Holly Yasui > Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:06:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: DeColores project addy In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970707211219.34b7d73e@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Thanks Heather. I just found the url, and was about to post it, but you beat me to it. This is a bibliography of sf by people of colour. -nalo On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Heather MacLean wrote: > http://www.netgsi.com/~obelesk/DeColores.html > > > Enjoy... (nalo passed it on to me, so it's only fair that i pass it on as > well... =) > > Heather > (avid reader of sf, all kinds--teach french sf and surrealism, supremely > interested in the links between language and visualization in the reading > process...) > > > hmaclean@kent.edu > http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:19:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Oh, goody. Then maybe you can explain my sig file to the person on this list (sorry; don't have your name in front of me, and am not adept enough at e-mail to move between files) who asked me what it meant. I am no expert in English of the period and my dad, who was, is dead. I only have a vague, intuitive sense of its meaning. Only heard of Margaret Cavendish a few days ago, when Helen Merrick--lurking on this list--sent me a copy of _She's Fantastical,- an antho of sf by Australian women. Have to find out more about Cavendish when I surface from Tiptree reading. -nalo On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Having spent 35 years of my life consorting with SF people, and a > smaller, but still significant part of my life hanging out with > feminists, without ever hearing the name of Margaret Cavendish > (1623-1673) invoked, I think that it's amazing that the authors of two > consecutive, but unrelated posts, Anastasia and Nalo, have mentioned her. I > did part of my dissertation on her fantasy poetry. > > Mike Levy > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Women writers of color In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970708231816.0069ebe0@m3.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, Linda Nagata is of Japanese heritage (whether American or not, I'm not certain). If anyone is into magic realism, you might want to check out _When Fox is a Thousand_ by Canadian Larissa Lai, who's also of Asian origin. It got an honourable mention in last year's world's best fantasy & horror. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:26:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: New Joanna Russ book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those who are interested, Publishers Weekly (6/33/97) just reviewed a new and enormous (560 pp), non-fiction book by Joanna Russ called What Are We Fighting For? Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism. It's due out in August from St. Martin's, costs $27.95, ISBN 0-312-15198-5. PW gave it a somewhat mixed review, as one would expect. In the review Russ is referred to as "a radical, socialist, lesbian, handicapped, Jewish feminist." Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:28:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: from "Elizabeth Pandolfo" at Jul 7, 97 09:03:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Pandolfo wrote: "I've been a feminist since I entered college, but I recently have had revelations about just how subtle the oppression of women really is, even among those who are learned and try not to support that behavior.>>> I have been having some of the same revelations Elizabeth, I tried to share them on the list as I think that the opression of women is so subtle and ingrained n the society that we cease to even notice it. I believe that one of the biggest ways that women are still punished, oppressed and controled is in the issues surrounding their reproduction. I will now offer a quote from Ursula LeGuin. It is in their sexuality that human beings can be most easily enslaved. ... The politics of the flesh are the root of all power. The politics of the flesh are the root of all power. I had not put it so elegantly, but this is what I have been thinking about both personally and politically since I have been recently harshly punished for my femaleness. Anastasia I think tht the first thing that will free us is having real control over our bodies and our reproduction (and I dont mean just access to abortion on demand, I mean that economics and social convention should not drive women's reproductive choices and it seems to me that this is sadly still the case. And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human roots were? Life and birth and death are still mysteries try as we might to control or deny it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Linda Nagata--was Re: Women writers of color In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970708231816.0069ebe0@m3.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Concerning Linda Nagata. I too assumed she was Japanese until an interview with her appeared in Locus, I think late in 1996. She's Anglo, but married to a Hawaiian American of Japanese descent. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:12:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Women writers of color Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Holly Yasui speculated: >I read an interesting book by Linda Nagata, whom I assume is Japanese >American, called *The Bohr Maker.* It's a cyberpunkish (?? if cyberpunk is >what I think it is) story set in futuristic Tokyo. Doesn't come close to >Butler's incredible range of issues and insights (*Kindred* and the >*Xenogenesis* trilogy really blew me away), but she's the only other >identifiable woman of color science fiction writer I've come across in my >very unstructured reading. Actually, Linda is Caucasian. However, I believe, IIRC, that her husband is of Hawaiian/Asian descent. >Also, the URL for the De Colores bibliography of science fiction writers of >color is: > > http://www.netgsi.com/users/obelesk/Bibcolores.html I promise to scoot over there as soon as I finish the other 99 things on my to do list, but in the meantime thought I'd ask if Tananarive Due, the only woman of color I know of writing horror, is on the list. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:20:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: New Joanna Russ book In-Reply-To: from "Michael Marc Levy" at Jul 8, 97 10:26:58 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In the review Russ is referred to as "a radical, socialist, lesbian, > handicapped, Jewish feminist." Damn - well so much for *subtle* discrimination. As an interesting aside, I just sent the Head of the Bioethics department here two science fiction stories to use as teaching aids in examining bioethical issues. One was Joanna Russ' "Where late the sweet birds sang" a classic cloning story and the other was Nancy Kress' "The mouuntain to Mohammed". I am now helping him plan the lecture around these works. I didnt *know* that Joanna Russ was so radical (I tend to care more about the ideas of writers as opposed to their personal lives which in my personal world would remain their own business) and I wonder if he would be teaching her if he *knew* her sordid politics (sarcasm). > > Mike Levy > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:23:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: A riotgrrl's 50 best science fiction novels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.riotgrrl.com/archive/large18.htm I haven't had a chance to really get through it, I think it would be interesting to compare this with what some of us were reading in high school and the like. Kate ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The computer is not a penis. Don't let men treat it like one." Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:40:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <9707072320.AA20337@madrone.ece.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I'd love to write it, and I have dabbled in that, but, >honestly, I don't have the time to put into that tremendous >endeavor. I am very impressed especially by the published >authors on this list! I have only published technical papers in >my field. > Bonnie, If it's the supposed scale of the stuff that's prohibiting you from writing SF, start small. Write a five-hundred or thousand-word short story. That's only 2-5 pages or so. Who knows? You might be a very important and very good SF writer, but I'd hate to see that not happen because of some intimidation (I'm talking about the scale here). 'Sides, it's a heckuvalotta fun. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: <199707081528.LAA22525@mail.med.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new >reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you >were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by >a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human >roots were? Elizabeth, Myself, I'd feel pretty pissed and alone. Perhaps, to any geneticists out there, this is something worth considering before racing along the technological superspeedway: drive too fast, don't listen to your pit crew and don't think ahead and you're bound to crash or screw up something vital. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:46:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <9707072320.AA20337@madrone.ece.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And what could possibly be better, >combining feminism with science and speculative fiction!? > >Keep the cool stuff coming, >Bonnie I don't know if that was a rhetorical question, but I'd say: Combining humanism with same. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've only become entranced with fantasy and SF in the past few >years, become a fan of Star Trek in the past 2 years, and become a fan of >Bab5 in the past week. =-> > Elizabeth, Which Star Trek? The Next Generation? Deep Space 9? Voyager? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sean, > >University of Oklahoma is in Norman. It's the school where Anita Hill was >a law professor until they forced her to quit in the middle of last Fall. > >Marina > Marina, Ohhhh. I remember being in Oklahoma City a few times. Didn't like it. Tulsa's a lot nicer (and so easy to get around). What do you think of the places (OK City and Tulsa)? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:55:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <8731701880@nchecr.unsw.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Sean, > >In Australia we haven't seen the lastest series of DS9, so we haven't >been introduced to Rom's wife yet. I'll wait in anticipation. > >B'Ellana Torres is the name of the Klingon in Voyager. She's also >terrific, as is Kira. I s'pose I find Ro Laren the most appealing as >she was only in STNG for a short period and as such, she remained a >fairly tough character. In the writers' attempts to create more >complex roles in Trek they sometimes taken the edge of the >female characters. > >Apologies for starting another (short) Trek thread. > >Bronwen Bronwen, If I'm right, the last we heard from Ro Laren was when she went over to, what, the resistance or the Romulans? I remember the episode and her leaving a shuttle in which she sat with Wil Riker, but I don't remember where she went. I'd like to hear more from her, though. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:18:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: postfeminism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Folks, We've got, sort of, definitions of feminism. Great. Anybody want to define, succinctly, postfeminism and throw out a grenade or two on how that'd relate to SF? I have my ideas, but I wanna see yours before I show you mine (sorry. That was sooo juvenile ;-) ). Translation: I'm still working on a definition of postfeminism. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:25:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: from "Sean Johnston" at Jul 8, 97 11:30:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new > >reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you > >were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by > >a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human > >roots were? > > Elizabeth, Actually Sean - it was me, Anastasia who wrote the above snippet - it was inspired by Elizabeth's observation that opression against women ws "subtle" to which I responded yes, and one of the most powerful tools in this "subtle" arsenal is the control of women's reproduction by economic means, normative social controls (those evil teen mothers, single mothers and welfare queens) and by technology. I would actually like to see these issuesexplored as there has been a lot of extrapolative fiction written about these things, but there needs to be more. > Myself, I'd feel pretty pissed and alone. Perhaps, to any > geneticists out there, this is something worth considering before racing > along the technological superspeedway: drive too fast, don't listen to > your pit crew and don't think ahead and you're bound to crash or screw up > something vital. > > -Sean > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:47:54 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: <199707081528.LAA22525@mail.med.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: [snip] > Anastasia > > I think tht the first thing that will free us is having real control over > our bodies and our reproduction (and I dont mean just access to abortion > on demand, I mean that economics and social convention should not drive > women's reproductive choices and it seems to me that this is sadly still > the case. > > And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new > reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you > were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by > a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human > roots were? Excuse me if I give my personal answer to this question. 1) My human roots are the based on who raised me (including the larger society) and have very little to do with my biology. I think that who "we" are is more based on Memes than Genes. 2) It would all be a matter of society and culture. If I was the only such surrogate or if society was obsessed with biological parentage, there would probably be significant problems. However, given a society based on this system, I can't forsee any more or larger personal problems with the situation than with my current life knowing my biological parents. > Life and birth and death are still mysteries try as we might to control > or deny it. 3) It seems that you are implying by this that we would lose a mystical connection to our parents. Perhaps, for some reason, people get a lot out of some sort of feeling of meta-physical (strangely very physical) connection to the people who gave them their genes. Also, perhaps people get alot out of knowing that their genes are continuing on in their children and have this feeling confirmed by the notion that their parents had the same thing with them. I wonder a) how much this is really the case. I for one do not feel that I get much of this mystical connection. What I get is the mystical connection of mind that came from my parents raising me. b) how much of this is societal and replaceable. Perhaps in another society we will find the "raised by" connection to be more mystical than the biological connection. (which I think I do) I hesitate to minimize the importance of biological parentage, but I hope that those people who find solace in it pause to consider other options and ways that people might get the same thing. Since I don't think that I personally get much of anything from my biological connections other than those derived from my non-biological interactions with them, I have no personal problem with the notion. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Ammonite In a message dated 97-07-08 00:26:59 EDT, Neil wrote: << A white brick, unfortunately, has a shelf life of about six weeks. Then it's pulped.>> AMMONITE is still going strong. It's in its fifth or sixth printing. If it's not actually on the shelf at Borders or B&N, you should be able to order it easily enough. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:01:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Linda Nagata--was Re: Women writers of color In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Oops! -nalo On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Concerning Linda Nagata. I too assumed she was Japanese until an > interview with her appeared in Locus, I think late in 1996. She's Anglo, > but married to a Hawaiian American of Japanese descent. > > Mike > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: <199707081725.NAA11006@mail.med.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: [snip] > Actually Sean - it was me, Anastasia who wrote the above snippet it > was inspired by Elizabeth's observation that opression against women ws > "subtle" to which I responded yes, and one of the most powerful tools in > this "subtle" arsenal is the control of women's reproduction by economic > means, normative social controls (those evil teen mothers, single mothers > and welfare queens) and by technology. > > I would actually like to see these issuesexplored as there has been a > lot of extrapolative fiction written about these things, but there needs > to be more. [snip] How about the new male birth control pill? That is so cool. This thing is real and is in our own time. I have an impression that most sf about reproduction has centered on different ways to create children rather than the more "mundane" subjects of birth control, but it seems to me that the political, economic, and social implications of birth control are extremely important and relevant. Most sf that mentions birth control seems to do so only in relation to a "magic patch" or something that simplifies not only life but the story as well :) Say, does anyone know of any sf out there that centers on birth control? Or is it stupid to even be asking? -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:07:31 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: <199707081528.LAA22525@mail.med.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 8 July, 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: >I have been having some of the same revelations Elizabeth, I tried to >share them on the list as I think that the opression of women is so >subtle and ingrained n the society that we cease to even notice it. I agree, Anastasia. It came as a real shock to me that the ways in which I had been taught to behave simply catered to my own oppression. These thoughts all came to a head as I was evaluating a reading group I've participated in for a long while, whose members are people I like, trust, and admire. There were a few meetings where I was the only female present, and I found certain behaviors and my responses to them very frustrating without really knowing why (I'd had a grad class where I was the only female present, too, and things then were similar to this situation). Realizing those reading-group members would be horrified at how I interpreted their behavior only made the situation worse for me personally. And then we read Ammonite, and I was appalled at how the book was interpreted by the majority of the reading group, who insisted that patriarchy occupied a central position in the book and who answered my claims about the book by saying Ammonite was largely derivative and typical of feminist utopias (but, gee, it was a good book nonetheless!). =-> >I had not put it so elegantly, but this is what I have been thinking >about both personally and politically since I have been recently harshly >punished for my femaleness. I want to say something to this, but I don't know what wouldn't simply be trite, so let me say I'm sympathetic (still trite, but I do mean it). >I think tht the first thing that will free us is having real control over >our bodies and our reproduction (and I dont mean just access to abortion >on demand, I mean that economics and social convention should not drive >women's reproductive choices and it seems to me that this is sadly still >the case. Yes, it is. Have you looked at Delany's book of essays, Silent Interviews? In one of the later interviews (I don't have it in front of me, but I can check the title and passage later if you'd like) he notes that modern society represses women and their sexuality even more than gays and their sexuality, and gives his interpretation of the AIDS crisis, the public warnings about AIDS, and the timing of it all to support his observation. Very intriguing, and convincing. >And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new >reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you >were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by >a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human >roots were? Timely question, since I just recently finished Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy. I can't answer it very well though. It does seem, going along with Delany's argument, that as women claim the right of being fully contributing members of society, as mothers and workers of all sorts, science comes up with more ways of saying that women aren't needed. This issue can really empower women, or really disempower them, depending on one's view. I haven't made up my mind yet. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Peth, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:15:47 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Joanna Russ/Kate Wilhelm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Um...Anastasia: > As an interesting aside, I just sent the Head of the Bioethics >department here two science fiction stories to use as teaching aids in >examining bioethical issues. One was Joanna Russ' "Where late the sweet >birds sang" a classic cloning story and the other was Nancy Kress' "The >mouuntain to Mohammed". > Am I confused, or was "Sweet Birds" not Kate Wilhelm, another fine writer, rather than Russ? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:17:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Emilie Falc Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT -- In response to Anastasia's query about not knowing your parents Joel VanLaven wrote: Since I don't think that I personally get much of anything from my biological connections other than those derived from my non-biological interactions with them, I have no personal problem with the notion. -- While I often have more in common with friends and other academics than with my own parents, I'll always remember the day when I noticed I have my mother's hands. The connection might seem silly, but in a world where it's common to feel alone in a crowd it's comforting. Em ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:25:43 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I've only become entranced with fantasy and SF in the past few >>years, become a fan of Star Trek in the past 2 years, and become a fan of >>Bab5 in the past week. =-> >> > >Elizabeth, > Which Star Trek? The Next Generation? Deep Space 9? Voyager? > >-Sean All, actually. I saw lots of TNG, and all the movies, and got hooked. I started watching DS9 and Voyager (though I can't get Voyager where I live anymore, but I had high hopes of them being able to start writing good plots to go with what I think is a great cast full of potential). A few months ago, they started showing TOS locally, so I watch it and just reeled from the, well, sixties-ish-ness of it, but it's grown on me. I like Spock. =-> I greatly like and admire the women on DS9 and Voyager (and Crusher on TNG), who seemed quite strong and capable to me. I didn't have a problem with any of their love interests or with Kira's pregnancy (after all, Visitor really was pregnant and it was either her character was pregnant too or we didn't see her for 5 months; talk about empowering women), since I don't see why a strong character can't have a relationship. I think Dax and Worf, and Kira's relationships, haven't demeaned either of those women. I wish TNG had done better with Troi, she could have been a great character. I admired Ro, but I didn't ever really like her. I've been impressed with DS9 in the past year; the writing is strong, the characters have shaped up well, and all isn't pleasant anymore. I hope I'll be able to see what those in charge do with what they've created. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Peth, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:41 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >So wqho is on this list? > >I'm Farah Mendlesohn, Farah, hi! I remember you well from Glasgow-con, now these many years ago. Are you coming to WFC in London this fall? I'll be there! Best to you and your husband, Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: SM Charnas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:14 PM 7/7/97, Nancy A. Horn wrote: >Imagine finding you here. I'm the friend of Vonda McIntyre's. Remember me. > >buzz buzz, > >nancy Oh crikey; yes, here I am, but where exactly and when did the buzzing take place? Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:40 AM 7/8/97, Kate Bolin wrote: >Well, I'm still up in the air as to whether or not I want to find this >book. I think it will just come down to if I wake up early enough on a >Saturday to make my way over to the library and read it. Godsakes. Read it! Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Finding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >My avocation is out-of-print and rare book scouting. I specialize in >science fiction, scholarly and technical books. Used science fiction books >are of three general types, 1. pristine first editions with perfect dust >jackets, these are much sought after by collectors and usually cost as much >or more than when first sold. Mr. Silver, Are you interested in a hardcover (perfect) of THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY, Simon and Schuster, 1980? Suzy Charnas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: finding Elisabeth Vonarburg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:15 PM 7/6/97, Sean Johnston wrote: > Anyone know of more imperfect matriarchal societies I could read >>about? > >Joanna, > This is stretching, but I'd check out S.M. Charnas' _Scorched >Supper on New Niger_ in _The Year's Best Science Fiction_, 13th edition, >edited by Gardner Dozois. There's a lot of other good stuff in there >(incl. 2 LeGuin stories), so it's worth the $17.95 US ($25.99 Can.) A word -- this story, the first short piece I ever did for publication and written when I was still fresh out of the Peace Corps and utterly fed up with straight-white-boy space colonies, is also found in Pam Sargent's reprinted collection, WOMEN OF WONDER, Vol. II, The Contemporary Years, out of Harcourt Brace in their Harvest trade paperback line in '95. Lots of other great stuff in there, too; price, $15.00 US. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:26 PM 7/7/97, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > > >> Lynn has a new book due out in the fall > >NH: She does?! O, frabjous day! I heard from Lizzie's (and my) editor at Tor, Debbie Notkin, that the book is WONDERFUL. And I bet it damn well is. Can hardly wait! Oh, I've been remiss about introducing myself, sorry -- Suzy Charnas, been around a while now writing feminist SF and fantasy; presently bringing the series that (inadvertantly) began with WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD (1974, guys!) to a close with a fourth and final volume. For more info, there's a web-page out there at StoryBytes, an on-line magazine, and a bunch of interview stuff at Amazon Books and at the Internet Book Shop in the uk. You people are *keeping me from finishing my work* with all the good stuff happening on this list. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: New Joanna Russ book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:26 AM 7/8/97, Michael Marc Levy wrote: >For those who are interested, Publishers Weekly (6/33/97) just reviewed a >new and enormous (560 pp), non-fiction book by Joanna Russ called What >Are We Fighting For? Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism. It's >due out in August from St. Martin's, costs $27.95, ISBN 0-312-15198-5. > >PW gave it a somewhat mixed review, as one would expect. > >In the review Russ is referred to as "a radical, socialist, lesbian, >handicapped, Jewish feminist." Mike, Great news! We've been hearing about this book for ages, and Joanna's health problems have often made it seem as if it was never going to appear. Can hardly wait -- thank Gods she's getting it out before I turn in the final mss. of my new novel -- I have absolutely no doubt that something in her book will spark absolutely crucial trains of thought etc. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:48:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: SM Charnas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:40 AM 7/7/97, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >Speaking of "who is on this list," Janice and Susan commented: >>offensive in the portrayal of the inter-gender relations. The idea that >>men and women just can't, literally and unequivocally and universally >>-can't- understand each other. > >Well, I guess they worked for me because I am sometimes baffled by the fact >that any two entities are able to communicate, let alone two entities fo >different genders. And living with my husband and son is enough to give me >many instances of complete conviction that they are indeed wired >differently and occasionally incomprehensible. I think there are distinct differences in masculine and feminine styles of expression, if not of thought, although how in hell we can ever untangle how much is "inborn" from how much is culturally inculcated I do not know. Certainly the more you suspend the rules about which sex may use which styles the more blurring and cross-over you get, but how to tell what that means? In some cases it's reaction against required norms, in others per- haps a function of unusual childhood circumstances or body chemistry, or who knows what else. It's quite clear, though, that this culture and most others have a deeply defended investment in keeping men "men" (foreground) and women "women" (background) for all sorts of political, economic, and social reasons. So, naturally, the culture works hard to reaffirm and even exaggerate the differences in male and female expressive styles that keep people locked into one side or the other of the gender split. We have a terrible inclina- tion toward polarities anyway, being bi-pedal etc., and a nearly total in- ability to view opposing poles as in parity rather than one being superior to the other. Which is pretty ridiculous objectively -- is your right foot "better than" your left foot? -- but very useful for allowing one pole to justify dominating and exploiting the other; which means that if you are born into the dominant pole, you most likely will do anything to keep from being identified with the other pole, including tailor your thought and behavior patterns to read "DOMINANT HERE" whether such patterns are "natural" in you or not. It will take a real revolution -- probably a very *long* revolution -- to get us to where we could seriously and maybe a little bit objectively begin to sort out biologically reality from cultural artifact, and decide where to go from there (though we can't seem to stop trying). So maybe for all intents and purposes as far as we moderns are concerned, Suzette is right: it ain't going to change soon enough. How would it all stand if we were actually built on a three-footed model? Suzy See why I mostly keep quiet on this list? I open my trap and out comes a goddamn lecture! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:47:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: _Glory Season_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:40 AM 7/7/97, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >It didn't work for me. I think a) the matriarchial founders were just too >manipulative, even more so than the founders of _Women's Country_, and b) I >didn't think the concept of sexuality was dealt with realistically. I agree about the problem of sexuality. What struck me was the total ab- sence of any homosexual element (barring, I think, one skittish sentence implying a predatory sort of chicken-hawk interest by a tough old bird in a tender, younger one, if I remember correctly) in a female-run society in which heterosexuality is only operative for a short mating season. Add also the nearly total lack of actual child- raising (although admittedly in an adventure story this isn't easy to do) and the fact that just about every male in the book is a sweet, good-hearted creature deeply involved in playing something called, I think, "the Game of Life," which women didn't play and which supposedly embodies "laws" of genetics which condemn the women's experiment. I also found it odd that this supposedly female-run society is in fact organized around its males and winning them as mates. On the whole, despite some lively ideas and adventures, I found the over-all result a sophisticated update of the women-run-society-as-insect-hive model that some male authors used to present as the "natural" form that any society ruled by women must take. Most disturbing of all, the plot of the book involves the larger human population ("the phylum"?), which has diffused among the stars, sending an envoy to inform the women that, successful though their feminist experiment has proven (for several thousands of years, in fact), the "phylum" has now decided that it's time for this self-chosen female separatism and rulership to end. The envoy's message is that ships from more traditional planets are already on their way to bring normality back to this wayward planet, and that this is a good and necessary thing against which, um, to coin a phrase, "resistance is futile." So, I guess, the gals might as well lie back and enjoy it . . . I assume "the phylum" to be male run because of the traditional values it intends to re-establish (for a "scientific" "higher good") even against the will of the non-traditional women of the "feminist" planet; and because surely no society with women fully represented in its decision making would be so dim-witted as to send a single, male envoyto a female-dominated world, at least not without some pretty fancy explanations of compelling reasons for doing so. But maybe I missed something. This novel is, to my mind, definitely *about* feminism, but just as definitely not *feminist*. As such, of course it was included in the Tiptree nominations for its year; Neil, you must have been looking at a list for a different year; although it's surprising how often people think that this book was over- looked. It wasn't. It was considered and did not win. (see Tiptree address supplied in Freddie Baer's message) I recommend reading Nicola Griffin's AMMONITE right after GLORY SEASON. The comparison is fascinating. If I were teaching a course on women and sf, or a women's studies course with an sf component, I'd include both books to be read and discussed together; or GS with my own MOTHERLINES, or with some episodes of XENA (Brin's heroine is, after all, a warrior-adventurer). No doubt other interesting matches could also be made, and could yield great discussions in a classroom. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: Joanna Russ/Kate Wilhelm In-Reply-To: from "Maryelizabeth Hart" at Jul 8, 97 11:15:47 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Um...Anastasia: > > As an interesting aside, I just sent the Head of the Bioethics > >department here two science fiction stories to use as teaching aids in > >examining bioethical issues. One was Joanna Russ' "Where late the sweet > >birds sang" a classic cloning story and the other was Nancy Kress' "The > >mouuntain to Mohammed". > > > Am I confused, or was "Sweet Birds" not Kate Wilhelm, another fine writer, > rather than Russ? Sorry, you are right and I am getting them confused as "Souls" by Russ follows "Sweet Birds in the anthology I copied it out of. My apologies for any confusion. > > > Maryelizabeth > Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 > 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 > San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX > http://www.mystgalaxy.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:42:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > How about the new male birth control pill? That is so cool. This >thing is real and is in our own time. > >-- Joel VanLaven Joel, Huh? When'd this come about? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:48:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I like >Spock. =-> > Shouldn't that be "I grok Spock"? ;-) -Sean > >I've been impressed with DS9 in the past year; the writing is strong, the >characters have shaped up well, and all isn't pleasant anymore. I hope >I'll be able to see what those in charge do with what they've created. > >Elizabeth I started liking DS9 a lot more once Worf came on, despite the fact that Michael Dorn's attitude going in was, "Well, it's money."(I think that's right. I think he needs this to support his flying. Hey, we all have our 'weaknesses') I'd probably feel the same way, though, having to sit through hours of makeup several days/week for years. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:34:44 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish As the Cavendish experts probably already know, there is an essay by Virginia Woolf on Cavendish in 'The Common Reader', (entitled 'The Duchess of Newcastle'). She was clearly not VW's kind of writer, but this essay is interesting (perhaps) as an example of earlier rediscoveries of marginalised women writers. And how they get forgotten again and have to be rediscovered once more! Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:56:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > All, actually. I saw lots of TNG, and all the movies, and got hooked. I > started watching DS9 and Voyager (though I can't get Voyager where I live > anymore, but I had high hopes of them being able to start writing good > plots to go with what I think is a great cast full of potential). A few I hope you are thinking more of "I HAD" instead of "I HAVE". Be very very grateful you don't get Voyager where you live. Trust me. Kate Bolin B5 addict ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:02:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie J Sobstyl Subject: Re: Any Sheri Tepper fans out there Comments: To: bernip@IX.NETCOM.COM In-Reply-To: <33BE389C.7221@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Since everyone else is de-lurking, and since Tepper fandom is on the table: I'm an assistant professor of philosophy, specializing in feminist science criticism. I'm a very big fan of Tepper's (although also a fan of Butler, Griffith, Slonczewski, Le Guin, and a score of others, Tepper's my number one favourite). I'm a displaced Canadian, living and working in Texas, where I am constantly judged to be a godless communist - an image I do nothing to dispel! I have a big fat grey tabby cat called Dennis; I have struggled, and am struggling, in my work with a philosophical grand assumption - that getting the argument right matters, and that if feminists can manage to get their arguments right, then things will change for women. I probably believed this at one time, early in my graduate career, but I no longer do. I used Tepper's _Gate to Women's Country_ in my dissertation because I was so struck by its power to persuade without resorting to the usual forms of philosophical discourse. Its subversiveness also appealed to me. I'm currently doing more work on the book, which doesn't especially go over well in professional philosophy; I am fortunate to be in an interdisciplinary program where I can explore such "unorthodox" material. I'm also fortunate to have a Dean who's a big science fiction fan! I agree that Tepper's novels sometimes tend to be a little too bombastic in their politics. However, I compare her work mentally to earlier efforts, such as Gilman's _Herland_, which is marred by pages and pages of excruciatingly dull, didactic speeches, and I find Tepper to be pretty low-key by contrast. I *loved* _Gibbon's_, and agree that it was one of her recent best. I also agree that perfection would make her much less fun to read, and to work with/on! Finally, about the list itself - it's been a treasure in terms of reading list suggestions, and it's great to have participation by the authors themselves. Nicola, I hope you don't get "too famous" for us! Edrie Sobstyl School of Arts and Humanities University of Texas at Dallas P.O. Box 830688 Richardson Tx 75083-0688 (972) 883-2365 (972) 883-2989 (fax) On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:05:48 +0100 Berni Phillips wrote: > Susan Mundahl wrote: > > > > I have just finished "Gibbon's Decline and Fall" It was incredible! Does > > anyone know how to get in touch with the author? I believe that her books > > are so insighful. They have helped me focus on what is important in this > > liminal age when we are trying to overcome the shackles of patriarchal > > bondage. Anyone care to discuss the book? Please contact me at > > isisbear@aol.com. > > > I am a Tepper fan as well. I think you'd probably have to write her > publisher (info should be on the copyright page) to contact her. > > I haven't read her newest (_The Family Tree_ or something similar to > that), but I thought that _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ was the best book > she'd written in years. > > I admire Tepper tremendously but I think she also has some serious flaws > as a writer. One of these is that she gets so carried away with her > politics that she tends beat the reader over the head with them. Even > though I generally agree with her message, the heavy-handedness makes me > wince. I thought that she did a fine job of *not* doing that in > Gibbon's. (Did you read _Shadow's End_? All the female characters were > good and all but one of the men were bad--and the one good man was > pretty much an honorary woman.) Her politics were there, but they were > deftly woven and crucial to the story. (Also, while her passion and her > politics is one of her greatest faults, it is also one of her greatest > strengths and what keeps me coming back to her. She cares passionately > about what she's writing. You know she's not just tossing it off.) > > Her other bad fault (as I see it, of course) is that she has a problem > ending her novels. She tends to rush the ending and throw in all sorts > of things. She does this particularly in _Beauty_, with her rant on > horror writers, and _A Plague of Angels_, which had some really > interesting concepts in it otherwise, such as the archetypal village. > > Still, if she were perfect, she would be much less interesting to > discuss. > > Berni Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:21:04 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Test Tube Babies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new >>reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you >>were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by >>a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human >>roots were? Ummmm.............better than a child who was rejected by its parents after birth? Better than a child severely abused by its biological parents? And.....speaking for many of us, I'm sure....better than a child who is Only Too Aware of the genetic code it's carrying around! ;-) Laura P.S. - On the male birth control pill issue, I have serious, admittedly cynical, thoughts about how motivated a guy would be to take it when the repurcussions of an unplanned pregnancy have zero physical affect on him. I mean, he could _lie_ and say he's on it. Sure, so could a woman, but, if she gets pregnant, _she_ suffers the consequences, not the "father." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > > How about the new male birth control pill? That is so cool. This > >thing is real and is in our own time. > > > >-- Joel VanLaven > > Joel, > Huh? When'd this come about? Well, all this is from watching the news, but as far as I know, 1) it's currently in clinical trials (you know how we are about approving drugs). It could be a while before it is available, but it was in the news enough for me to hear about it. (I don't follow the news that closely). 2) I think it is a drug that makes the sperm produced by a man incapable (in some way or other) of "doing it's job" :). 3) I think that it is supposed to be in the 90+% effective range (similar to female birth control pills). 4) I think it's relatively side-effect free. It might be one of those things that never makes it to market, but I have a feeling there will be huge demand for it as it seems like a very effective solution with the minimal side-effects (at least it doesn't mess with anyone's hormones). If anyone knows more about it (like how it works) I'd love to hear about it. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:54:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Nalo sez: >Ruth, you're at the home of Clarion East. Yep, sure am! Wish I could claim some connection but it's just coincidence. (btw, it's Ruth Ann, please, not Ruth.) >Octavia Butler's one of the >writers there this year. I'm going to MSU at the end of this month for >the Clarion reunion, and am keeping my fingers crossed that she'll be >there. I'd love to meet her. > >-nalo Yes, she was here in June. I went to one of her readings at a local bookstore and she was really interesting - very thoughtful, very funny. I'd love to hear her again! Hope you get to meet her in person!! --Ruth Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:51:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nancy A. Horn" Subject: Re: SM Charnas In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The message was for the Mysterious Galaxy bookstore proprietress. The buzzing was from a bad bearing on my main impeller. nancy At 11:48 AM 7/8/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 12:14 PM 7/7/97, Nancy A. Horn wrote: >>Imagine finding you here. I'm the friend of Vonda McIntyre's. Remember me. >> >>buzz buzz, >> >>nancy > >Oh crikey; yes, here I am, but where exactly and when did the buzzing take >place? > >Suzy > > www.crl.com/~yashmak/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:27:38 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Valerie Renwick-Porter Subject: utopian communities In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Anybody know about some communes, preferably > egalitarian/feminist? To Lori and Sean, and any others who are interested in finding out more about community living: the best place to start on the web is which has links to a diverse range of current communes or "intentional communities" (as we like to say) all over the continent and the world. You can also check out Twin Oaks webpage at or email me personally for more information. I am serious that community culture is a place where we can start creating, now, the utopias that we all love to read about, and perhaps fantasize about living in.... In cooperation, Valerie ============================================ Valerie Renwick-Porter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:33:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joslyn Grassby Organization: National Library of Canada Subject: Re: So who is on this list? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another lurker appearing briefly . . .Not random, not a geek and no longer a lecturer. Joslyn Grassby, librarian, formerly math teacher, editor, lecturer in ESP. Reader of science fiction all my life. Lived for a long time in Borneo and Thailand so in the last some years back in Canada have had the pleasure of reading all the stuff that didn't make the bookstores of Kuching or Bangkok. Admirer of the works of LeGuin, McIntyre, Tepper, Butler, Charnas. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:43:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Groppi Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: <199707081528.LAA22525@mail.med.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: > And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new > reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you > were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by > a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human > roots were? Whatever. How about being an adoptee? It's much the same thing--I have no idea where my "human roots" are, and really, I think the whole thing is over-hyped. It would be nice to find out about my birth parents so that I know what lurks in my medical history, but honestly, I feel no sense of loneliness or disconnectedness. I -have- a family, a very close-knit and loving one, and it matters not a bit that we share no genetic material. What is it with the emphasis on blood kin, anyway? Yes, I'm aware that many adoptees do feel a loss. It's something that varies by individual, but it's entirely inaccurate to say that the disconnectedness causes a loss. Right, off-topic. Sorry about that, this is one of my button-push issues. -- Susan groppi@hcs.harvard.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i found god in myself and i loved her i loved her fiercely -- n.shange ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:05:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Jo Clayton Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought these excerpts from the SF-Lovers list regarding Jo Clayton might be of interest. Note the last one, regarding financial assistance in defraying medical costs. Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:05:13 -0400 From: Saul Jaffe Reply-To: SF-LOVERS-WRITTEN@rutgers.edu Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V22 #223 SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 8 Jul 1997 Volume 22 : Issue 223 ------------------------------ Subject: Drum Warning - Jo Clayton I have very mixed feelings about whether to recommend this one (even though I liked it). It is extremely Jo-Claytoney, which means among other things that it is long, complex, leisurely, and the first book of a trilogy. The problem with this, of course, is that the state of Jo Clayton's health raises the possibility that we may not see part three, even if we get part two (the periodic reports from the northwest we see on the newsgroups do say she has continued to write through all of this). More of what 'Jo-Claytoney' means. Jo Clayton is probably the foremost current practitioner of an old literary style. She sets numerous plot threads in motion, following good guys, bad guys, and in-between guys; then moves back and forth between the threads, prodding here and massaging there. While her books themselves don't so remind me, this style reminds me most strongly of ERB's Tarzan books, especially the middle arc where the focus was not always squarely on Tarzan. (This analogy really holds well with the later Diadem books, where the focus was not always squarely on Aletys) On this book, we have seven major POV characters (three apparantly good, four apparantly not good) and four or five minor POV characters, spread over two planets. To my feeling, the weaving of the threads is done well here, as they go their separate ways, sometimes paralleling sometimes intersecting (of course by this point I may be just attuned to JC's shifting POV style). The problem is that as you hit the end of the book, after 382 pages, what you really have is the stage set. Selfishly, I hope JC continues to improve physically. I'd like to know what happens to Cymel. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 1997 04:12:46 -0400 From: cpf@light.lightlink.com (Courtenay Footman) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Drum Warning - Jo Clayton All I know about Clayton's health is what I read in Locus. The latest (June) issue says "Jo Clayton [...] is officially off the critical list." I hope this has not changed for the worse? BTW, the Locus note ends with a statement that she completed a novel, and has started work on the third book in the "Drums of Chance" series. The penultimate statement in the note is a plea for (tax-deductible) funds to help Clayton pay her medical expenses; the address given is: Oregon SF&F Emergency Trust c/o OSFCI, P. O. Box 5703, Portland OR 97228 Courtenay Footman cpf@lightlink.com ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest *********************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Women writers of color In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970708231816.0069ebe0@m3.sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Holly Yasui wrote: >I read an interesting book by Linda Nagata, whom I assume is Japanese >American, called *The Bohr Maker.* It's a cyberpunkish (?? if cyberpunk is >what I think it is) story set in futuristic Tokyo. Doesn't come close to >Butler's incredible range of issues and insights (*Kindred* and the >*Xenogenesis* trilogy really blew me away), but she's the only other >identifiable woman of color science fiction writer I've come across in my >very unstructured reading. I am extremely enthusiastic about _The Bohr Maker_. It may be one of the very best nanotech novels yet. It is also Linda Nagata's first published novel, and, IMHO, outstanding for a first novel. (Actually, it's her first sale -- her first novel was published more recently, and isn't as good, but I'm going to keep watching for her!) If I recall from the blurbs, she's Hawaiian. (Hawaii doesn't *have* a racial majority!) Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Worldcon, Aussiecon (was Re: So who is on this list?) Comments: To: Bronwen Turner In-Reply-To: <85F94015D3@nchecr.unsw.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>You DO know the Worldcon is going back to Melbourne in two years, don't >>you? I ask just to double-check; it would be too much of a shame to get >>the news too late! >Oh dear, do I have to express my ignorance so soon after de-lurking? >I have no idea what Worldcon is, or that it will be in Melbourne in a >couple of years. Is these a contact for more information?. I'm >always keen on a good talkfest!! The World Science Fiction Convention is almost sixty years old. It is usually in the United States over "Labor Day Weekend" (the first Monday in September, the customary end of summer (don't get me started on why the US' "Labor Day" is at the end of the summer and "Law Day" is May 1!!)) The Worldcon can be anywhere, though, and has been in Europe twice (that I recall), Britain a few times, and Australia twice. Groups of fans put together bids to have the Worldcon in their city, and the members of the convention vote to select the future site (since Worldcon is lately around 6,000 people, the selection is three years in advance to reserve the hotel). This year will be San Antonio, Texas; next year will be Baltimore, Maryland; 1999 will be in Melbourne; 2000 will be here in Chicago [it hasn't been voted on yet, but the Chicago bid is so strong it's unopposed]. Here are some URLs about Worldcon and cons in general: Worldcon & NASFIC Bids Worldcon Bids and NASFiC Bids SF-Lovers Convention Listings Minicon 33 Homepage WisCon Homepage Here are some general fannish & fanzine URLs: The New York Review of Science Fiction Home Page Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia Web Version of the Fannish E-Mail Directory Internet Speculative Fiction DataBase
Internet Speculative Fiction DataBase Laurie Mann's Home Page The Timebinders Home Page Arisia SF Resources Hazel's Info Files: Smofs and Fans Sci ence Fiction Resource Guide: Fandom
Hugo Award Winners, 1953-1995 Nebula Awards, 1965-1994 John W. Campbell Memorial Award Winners The Tiptree Award Wor ld Fantasy Award Winners L ocus Award Winners The most comprehensive directory of SF/Fantasy/Space and Surreal Art on the Net! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:27:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Kendrick Subject: Re: Joanna Russ/Kate Wilhelm In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kate WIlhelm wrote _Where late the sweet birds sang_. I wrote a paper once on this book, back in grad school. _______________________________________________________________ Michelle R. Kendrick Assistant Professor of English Washington State University 14204 NE Salmon Creek Avenue Vancouver, Washington 98686 (360)546-9645 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:53:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Readercon In-Reply-To: <9707081053.AA24379@gemb1.ae.ge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Readercon happens this weekend, July 11-13. Guests of honour are Algis Budrys and Kim Stanley Robinson. It's in Westborough, I think, at the Westborough Marriot hotel, which is now sold out for the con, but there are hotels nearby. For a list of other attendees and more info: http://www.mit.edu/~zeno/readercon/html -nalo On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Sandy Moltz wrote: > Dear Nalo, and anyone else with information: > Since I live in the Boston area, could you > please send any information on Readercon, > i.e.times/places/authors appearing/contact > information? > Thanks a lot, > Sandy Moltz > ssm@pdd8.ae.ge.com > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:07:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Kendrick Subject: Mars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, I am beginning research that will culminate in a CD-ROM on Mars (that's the topic, not the location :-). It will be on the science and science fiction of Mars -- using interviews with both practicing scientist who are working on the Mars projects and with writers who use Mars in their sci-fi works. (for instance, I interview Robinson at the end of the month). We are interested in exploring Mars as a cultural artifact -- exploring the powerful mythos and the scientific discourse... I have no women yet in the loop, which is depressing me... Is there anyone who uses Mars in their work in interesting ways? Help, I don't wanna work with just boys :-{. (tho I do have a woman meteorologists who studies the weather on Mars who just agreed to talk to me). Michelle _______________________________________________________________ Michelle R. Kendrick Assistant Professor of English Washington State University 14204 NE Salmon Creek Avenue Vancouver, Washington 98686 (360)546-9645 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:48:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: ST:DS9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I started liking DS9 a lot more once Worf came on, despite the fact that >Michael Dorn's attitude going in was, "Well, it's money."(I think that's >right. I think he needs this to support his flying. Hey, we all have our >'weaknesses') I'd probably feel the same way, though, having to sit >through hours of makeup several days/week for years. > >-Sean Maybe all those hours sitting were when he came up with his SF novels to be launched this fall... :P Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:50:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: _Glory Season_ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I recommend reading Nicola Griffin's AMMONITE right after GLORY SEASON. >The comparison is fascinating. If I were teaching a course on women and sf, >or a women's studies course with an sf component, I'd include both books to >be read and discussed together; or GS with my own MOTHERLINES, or with some >episodes of XENA (Brin's heroine is, after all, a warrior-adventurer). No >doubt other interesting matches could also be made, and could yield great >discussions in a classroom. > >Suzy Suzy and all, Is it just me or could Xena: Warrior Princess turn out to be a very important series for people in general and women in particular. > >You people are *keeping me from finishing my work* with all the good stuff >happening on this list. > >Suzy Gee, sorry (heh-heh :-) ). Mike, Great news! We've been hearing about this book for ages, and Joanna's health problems have often made it seem as if it was never going to appear. Can hardly wait -- thank Gods she's getting it out before I turn in the final mss. of my new novel -- I have absolutely no doubt that something in her book will spark absolutely crucial trains of thought etc. What health problems? Anything I/we can do to help? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:51:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Actually, I think the DS9 writers have really done a lot of damage to Major Kira's character. When the show first started, she was a warrior, a revolutionary, really strong and tough. Short hair and a bad attitude. Her sexuality was not really discussed, which opened up the possibility that she could have been a lesbian as well (Dax? - who knew?!). I think the powers that be got a little nervous about Kira's subversive possibilities, and they decided to femme her up. I can't even watch the show anymore - every time I do, she's crying about something or other. She's definitely wearing more makeup, "prettier" hair, and maybe a little soft focus now and then. And what's this business about her having O'Brian's baby? I missed this whole story line - is she "fulfilling her biological destiny as a woman" or something? Obviously, I'm pissed-off! What do other people think? Kym > >Sean, > >In Australia we haven't seen the lastest series of DS9, so we haven't >been introduced to Rom's wife yet. I'll wait in anticipation. > >B'Ellana Torres is the name of the Klingon in Voyager. She's also >terrific, as is Kira. I s'pose I find Ro Laren the most appealing as >she was only in STNG for a short period and as such, she remained a >fairly tough character. In the writers' attempts to create more >complex roles in Trek they sometimes taken the edge of the >female characters. > >Apologies for starting another (short) Trek thread. > >Bronwen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Worldcon, Aussiecon (was Re: So who is on this list?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970708151658.006b5364@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >The Worldcon can be anywhere, though, and has been in Europe twice (that I >recall), Britain a few times, and Australia twice. Groups of fans put >together bids to have the Worldcon in their city, and the members of the >convention vote to select the future site (since Worldcon is lately around >6,000 people, the selection is three years in advance to reserve the hotel). > >This year will be San Antonio, Texas; What is the date for it? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:16:33 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Worldcon 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Worldcon will be held in San Antonio from August 28 to Sept 1, over the Labor Day weekend. I'm not sure where my booth will be located, but if attendees want to get together and see one another face to face, since I'll be pretty stationary, we could use my booth as a meeting place, if anyone is interested. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:32:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: OT but kinda interesting... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > By Biswajyoti Das > >SHILLONG, India, July 7 (Reuter) - On Sundays, the echo of church bells rolls >over a pine-scented carpet of mist that unfurls gently upon the grassy hills >of northeastern India. > >But the lazy ringing is no music to the ears of Casper Tariang, a bachelor >who says he is not looking forward to getting married. > >He is one of the 200,000 men who belong to the Khasi tribe -- one of the >world's few remaining matrilineal societies -- and Tariang says enough is >enough. > >``I am a bachelor at the moment. Once I get married, I don't want to be a >babysitter,'' the business-suited hotel executive says. > >TIME FOR A CHANGE > >Tariang is not alone. > >Many educated and well-employed Khasi men, who live in the tranquil hills >surrounding the northeastern city of Shillong, are bristling against the >matrilineal, or female-led, system. > >Members of Khasi society trace their descent through their mothers, taking >their maternal ancestors' surnames. Property is also handed down from the >mother, usually only to the youngest daughter of each family, but >increasingly, to all female members. > >While men and women share the household work, women are considered the more >aggressive entrepreneurs and work outside the home throughout the day. > >More than 80 percent of the 400,000 Khasis are Christians. The tribespeople, >who are of Austro-Asian descent, have facial features like those of people in >nearby Burma and Tibet. > >Their first brush with the outside world was in 1841, when a Presbyterian >missionary, Reverend Thomas Jones, set up educational and religious centres >in Khasi country. > >Located 1,500 metres (4,150 feet) above sea level, the hilly region shares >its southern borders with Bangladesh and can be reached only after a >three-hour bus journey from the nearest airport at Guwahati, about 100 km (60 >miles) to the northwest. > >The Khasis adopted the Roman script and Christianity a century and a half >ago, but the matrilineal tradition, or Kharduh, lives on. > >BATTLE OF THE SEXES JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG > >Male rebellion against female social supremacy is only one of the challenges >faced by the traditional Khasi way of life. > >Tribal leaders are worried that non-tribal people, who already dominate the >local economy, are marrying Khasi women purely for their inheritance rights. > >The controversy forms a slender strand within a complex web of regional >rivalry. Many indigenous peoples of northeastern India accuse outsiders of >exploiting their land and funding the election of candidates who do not >represent tribal demands. > >The hostility has boiled over into inter-tribal warfare and spawned dozens of >separatist movements in recent years. > >``We don't want any change in our traditional system, but some modifications >should be made to the Khasi law of inheritance only,'' says Delly Moore >Wankhar, a Khasi man. > >But Khasi women are not nearly as keen. > >``Since we have adopted this from the beginning I don't want a change. Rather >I would like to continue with the tradition,'' says 18-year-old Donna Anne. > >Some Khasi women say they actually prefer to marry out of the tribe because >the Khasi man, unaccustomed to earning a living, expects her to work hard >while he takes it easy. > >One businessman from the nearby state of West Bengal, Bobby Dutt, says he is >going to marry a Khasi girl, who happens to be the youngest in her family. > >``When we fell in love, we decided that she will follow her traditions and I >will retain my surname,'' Dutt told Reuters. > >``As far as our children are concerned, I think we should give them an >opportunity to decide for themselves whose name they would like to retain.'' > >INCREASING WESTERNISATION, DRUGS ROCKING SOCIETY > >The Khasi way of life has become increasingly Westernised since satellite >television became popular in India after 1991. > >Sociologists say teen marriage and pregnancy rates are rapidly rising. The >average age of marriage has fallen to 14 years from over 18 a decade ago. > >Khasi women say it is unfair to blame the combination of Westernisation and >female social supremacy for the increasing number of broken homes. > >``Broken homes exist in every society, not because we have to give a mother's >name to a child,'' says one young Khasi woman, > >22:17 07-06-97 Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:55:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildiko Paulovitch Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn Nalo, I found out about the reason for E. Lynn's hiatus from writing by looking up "A Different Light's" web page. Not as good as Amazon, but close. Can't wait for her new stuff either. ildiko ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn In-Reply-To: <970708215309_580657949@emout08.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Tks. Do you have the URL? -nalo On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Ildiko Paulovitch wrote: > Nalo, > I found out about the reason for E. Lynn's hiatus from writing by > looking up "A Different Light's" web page. Not as good as Amazon, but > close. Can't wait for her new stuff either. > > > ildiko > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:20:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: ST:DS9 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>-Sean > >Maybe all those hours sitting were when he came up with his SF novels to be >launched this fall... :P > > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com Maryelizabeth, Huh? When'd this happen? I'm definitely checking this out. I just hope he doesn't have a ghost writer. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:36:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Actually, I think the DS9 writers have really done a lot of damage to Major >Kira's character. When the show first started, she was a warrior, a >revolutionary, really strong and tough. Short hair and a bad attitude. Her >sexuality was not really discussed, which opened up the possibility that >she could have been a lesbian as well (Dax? - who knew?!). I think the >powers that be got a little nervous about Kira's subversive possibilities, >and they decided to femme her up. I can't even watch the show anymore - >every time I do, she's crying about something or other. She's definitely >wearing more makeup, "prettier" hair, and maybe a little soft focus now and >then. And what's this business about her having O'Brian's baby? I missed >this whole story line - is she "fulfilling her biological destiny as a >woman" or something? Obviously, I'm pissed-off! What do other people think? > >Kym As somebody else posted, Nana Visitor was pregnant at the time. The writers could modify the storyline to include or exclude her. they included her big-time. As this somebody also expressed, changing the story (writing her pregnancy in) was pretty cool. As to the short hair and bad attitude stuff, what we've seen is a fleshing-out of her character, perhaps at the expense of some fans. I think that's cool, too because it's far more interesting to see more human qualities to identify with and because it's pretty boring to have a one-dimensional character week after week. As to the strength, I see her as stronger now knowing what she's been through. I think it also takes more strength to cry in public than to bottle it up because, when that's done, it's suppressing an emotion. Well, too much suppression and you're going to get an explosion, which I suspect Kira often did...all over Cardassians. Often, when you have a character who's very abrasive, very short-tempered, what have you, you have a very insecure person, which is what I would see the old Kira as: insecure, defensive (rightfully so) and probably uncomfortable with herself. I also, though, see a very passionate person and I'm glad that's been kept but not to the extent of making Kira narrow-minded. Kira's, as I said, been through a lot of shit in her life and she deserves to be allowed to have other aspects of herself come across. And, no, I'm not, I hope, mixing up Kira Nurees (sp?) the character with Nana Visitor the real person, about whom I know little. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:59:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: ST:DS9 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Levar Burton's got an sf novel out too. -nalo On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >>-Sean > > > >Maybe all those hours sitting were when he came up with his SF novels to be > >launched this fall... :P > > > > > > > >Maryelizabeth > >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 > >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 > >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX > >http://www.mystgalaxy.com > > Maryelizabeth, > Huh? When'd this happen? I'm definitely checking this out. I > just hope he doesn't have a ghost writer. > > -Sean > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: Tks. Do you have the URL? NH: Actually, I found it, but couldn't the reference to Lynn. -nalo > > -nalo > > On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Ildiko Paulovitch wrote: > > > Nalo, > > I found out about the reason for E. Lynn's hiatus from writing by > > looking up "A Different Light's" web page. Not as good as Amazon, but > > close. Can't wait for her new stuff either. > > > > > > ildiko > > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: ST:DS9 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Levar Burton's got an sf novel out too. > >-nalo > >On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Same for him then; I hope he's writing his own stuff. James Doohan, too. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:48:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:07 PM 7/8/97, Michelle Kendrick wrote: > We are interested in exploring Mars as a cultural >artifact -- exploring the powerful mythos and the scientific discourse... No suggestions, alas, but this sounds like a WONDERFUL project. I'm jealous. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:48:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: _Glory Season_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 6:50 PM 7/8/97, Sean Johnston wrote: >Great news! We've been hearing about this book for ages, and Joanna's >health problems have often made it seem as if it was never going to appear. >Can hardly wait -- thank Gods she's getting it out before I turn in the >final mss. of my new novel -- I have absolutely no doubt that something >in her book will spark absolutely crucial trains of thought etc. > >What health problems? Anything I/we can do to help? She's had Varioius Bad Things going on for a long time, including a bad back that prevents her from -- can you believe it? -- sitting at a keyboard for any length of time. But clearly she has not let any of it stop her from finishing this particular piece of work, which has been in train literally for years. If I come across any openings for health help in her situation, I will certainly pass on the news. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:48:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: What is feminism? Comments: To: Joel VanLaven Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:47 PM 7/8/97, Joel VanLaven wrote: >I hesitate to minimize the importance of biological parentage, but I hope >that those people who find solace in it pause to consider other options >and ways that people might get the same thing. Since I don't >think that I personally get much of anything from my biological >connections other than those derived from my non-biological interactions >with them, I have no personal problem with the notion. Me neither; I think bio parents are mainly important from a medical pov (spotting and dealing with inherited weaknesses), but that the main point of parents is that there be *someone* to play that role and play it reason- ably well. There's been research lately supporting the idea that if a child doesn't learn by age 2 or so that bonding with another person -- learning to trust, in other words -- is possible and desireable, that child will become an adult with absent or impaired bonding skills, to its own misery and that of the people around her/him. Those with impaired intimacy skills are basically unhappy adults because they never manage to trust any- one enough to make the intimate connections we all crave; those with none at all become our social monsters, showing up as criminals who murder without compunction because they just don't get it -- that the "other" has a self just as they do. But it doesn't seem to matter very much *who* offers the requisite pattern for establishing intimacy in early childhood, so long as *somebody* does it long enough and well enough to establish the pattern in the child's psyche. Now, whether this is good science (as opposed to finding a "scientific" stick with which to beat those who are already society's victims, ie inner city crack babies or what-have-you) I can't be certain. But it does make sense to me. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:35:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: Oh, goody. Then maybe you can explain my sig file to the person on > this list (sorry; don't have your name in front of me, and am not adept > enough at e-mail to move between files) who asked me what it meant. I am > no expert in English of the period and my dad, who was, is dead. I only > have a vague, intuitive sense of its meaning. Only heard of Margaret > Cavendish a few days ago, when Helen Merrick--lurking on this list--sent > me a copy of _She's Fantastical,- an antho of sf by Australian women. > Have to find out more about Cavendish when I surface from Tiptree reading. > > -nalo > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 My own research into Cavendish is some 17 years old and I'm not at all sure what's been written about her since the late 1970s and early 80s, but I can dig out my old dissertation notes and give you a short bibliography if you'd like. At least as of 1980 very little had been written about her and much of that was negative. Seems to me that there was a biography in the mid 1950s, however, and Virginia Wolfe said some interesting things about her as well. In general the Duchess of Newcastle, like most intelligent but poorly educated women of the period, was treated by her male contemporaries as a witty, but not entirely sane eccentric, someone to listen to because her husband was one of the most important men in England, but certainly not someone to take very seriously. As far as your sig file goes, I don't remember "Nature's Pictures" well enough to be sure and the nearest copy of the work is probably 90 miles away in the University of Minnesota library stacks. If you've got a longer quotation from the poem I might be able to tell you more--but I'm going to guess that "straight" here means "immediately." In all probability "fantastical" here means something considerably different from what might be meant by the modern phrase "she's fantastic" ie. "wonderful." Nor would I guess that it's meant the way the editors of the Australian anthology used it, as in "she's imaginative." I'd guess, instead that it means something more like "hysterical" (ie. `out of control' rather than `funny') or "given to flights of exaggerated fantasy" and that it's not a very positive statement. In other words, to translate the quote into modern English, I'd guess it means: Immediately she's hysterical. All women cry when you pressure them. Not exactly what you'd want as your sig file, I'd guess, but I'd also guess that Cavendish is probably writing this ironically, having herself been dismissed in this way on other occasions. This is all just a guess, of course. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: More or less what I guessed. The quotation from the antho is: Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry, But they will imitate her presently. Which I took to mean, coming ironically from Cavendish's mouth, "well, they all say I'm given to flights of fancy (and I did know that that would be a negative comment -nh), but they'll be imitating me pretty soon." -nh On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > NH: Oh, goody. Then maybe you can explain my sig file to the person on > > this list (sorry; don't have your name in front of me, and am not adept > > enough at e-mail to move between files) who asked me what it meant. I am > > no expert in English of the period and my dad, who was, is dead. I only > > have a vague, intuitive sense of its meaning. Only heard of Margaret > > Cavendish a few days ago, when Helen Merrick--lurking on this list--sent > > me a copy of _She's Fantastical,- an antho of sf by Australian women. > > Have to find out more about Cavendish when I surface from Tiptree reading. > > > > -nalo > > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 > > My own research into Cavendish is some 17 years old and I'm not at all > sure what's been written about her since the late 1970s and early 80s, > but I can dig out my old dissertation notes and give you a short > bibliography if you'd like. > > At least as of 1980 very little had been written about her and much > of that was negative. Seems to me that there was a biography in the mid > 1950s, however, and Virginia Wolfe said some interesting things about her > as well. In general the Duchess of Newcastle, like most intelligent but > poorly educated women of the period, was treated by her male > contemporaries as a witty, but not entirely sane eccentric, someone to > listen to because her husband was one of the most important men in > England, but certainly not someone to take very seriously. > > As far as your sig file goes, I don't remember "Nature's Pictures" well > enough to be sure and the nearest copy of the work is probably 90 > miles away in the University of Minnesota library stacks. If you've got > a longer quotation from the poem I might be able to tell you more--but I'm going > to guess that "straight" here means "immediately." In all probability > "fantastical" here means something considerably different from what might be meant > by the modern phrase "she's fantastic" ie. "wonderful." Nor would I guess that > it's meant the way the editors of the Australian anthology used it, as in "she's > imaginative." I'd guess, instead that it means something more like "hysterical" > (ie. `out of control' rather than `funny') or "given to flights of exaggerated > fantasy" and that it's not a very positive statement. > > > In other words, to translate the quote into modern English, I'd guess it > means: > > Immediately she's hysterical. All women cry when you pressure them. > > Not exactly what you'd want as your sig file, I'd guess, but I'd also > guess that Cavendish is probably writing this ironically, having > herself been dismissed in this way on other occasions. > > This is all just a guess, of course. > > Mike Levy > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: More or less what I guessed. The quotation from the antho is: > > Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry, > But they will imitate her presently. > > Which I took to mean, coming ironically from Cavendish's mouth, "well, > they all say I'm given to flights of fancy (and I did know that that would > be a negative comment -nh), but they'll be imitating me pretty soon." > > -nh > Yes this makes good sense to me. The terms fantasy, phantasy, fantastic, etc. were--if my fading memories of a graduate course in Romantic Literature are correct (God, now we're talking early to mid-1970s!)-- all pretty much negative in normal usage until Coleridge popularized a more positive meaning for them in his major work of lit crit, what was it called, Biographia Literaria, or some such. Mike Levy (who's feeling older by the minute) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 02:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: So who is on this list? So who is on this list? I've been a feminist since I was a little girl, in those dark years of the early 60's. I have a strong memory of my mother telling me when I was 6 or 7 years old that men were naturally better at everything than women (I think her objective was to encourage my acceptance of Woman's Lot in Life), and getting very angry. I began reading science fiction at 10 years old or so. I loved it from the beginning, but also had a notion that I was reading literature written for males. It was much like reading my brother's Boy's Life magazines -- a sensation that as interesting as it was, it wasn't really meant for me. I clearly remember the emotional impact I had when I read Russ's story, "When It Changed" -- a feeling of "At last! Oh, praise the lord! At last!" I read a lot of mysteries, too. A few years ago, I decided that there were too many new writers in the mystery field to keep up with, so I would restrict myself by reading books by writers new to me only if they were women. I haven't done that yet with science fiction, but I am tempted. If only there were more female cyberpunk writers.... Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 02:38:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: New Joanna Russ book In a message dated 97-07-08 20:31:47 EDT somebody wrote: << One was Joanna Russ' "Where late the sweet birds sang" a classic cloning story >> Uh, that was a Kate Wilhelm story. Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:03:01 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: New Joanna Russ book In-Reply-To: <199707081620.MAA32692@mail.med.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: > > As an interesting aside, I just sent the Head of the Bioethics > department here two science fiction stories to use as teaching aids in > examining bioethical issues. One was Joanna Russ' "Where late the sweet > birds sang" a classic cloning story and the other was Nancy Kress' "The > mouuntain to Mohammed". > Isn't it kate Wilhelm who wrote _Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang?_ Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 02:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: What is feminism? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 1:47 PM 7/8/97, Joel VanLaven wrote: > >>I hesitate to minimize the importance of biological parentage, but I hope >>that those people who find solace in it pause to consider other options >>and ways that people might get the same thing. Since I don't >>think that I personally get much of anything from my biological >>connections other than those derived from my non-biological interactions >>with them, I have no personal problem with the notion. > >Me neither; I think bio parents are mainly important from a medical pov >(spotting and dealing with inherited weaknesses), but that the main point >of parents is that there be *someone* to play that role and play it reason- >ably well. There's been research lately supporting the idea that if a child >doesn't learn by age 2 or so that bonding with another person -- learning >to trust, in other words -- is possible and desireable, that child will >become an adult with absent or impaired bonding skills, to its own >misery and that of the people around her/him. Those with impaired intimacy >skills are basically unhappy adults because they never manage to trust any- >one enough to make the intimate connections we all crave; those with none >at all become our social monsters, showing up as criminals who murder >without compunction because they just don't get it -- that the "other" has >a self >just as they do. But it doesn't seem to matter very much *who* offers the >requisite pattern for establishing intimacy in early childhood, so long >as *somebody* does it long enough and well enough to establish the pattern >in the child's psyche. > >Now, whether this is good science (as opposed to finding a "scientific" >stick with which to beat those who are already society's victims, ie inner >city crack babies or what-have-you) I can't be certain. But it does make >sense to me. > >Suzy Well, Suzy and Joel, you make some good points, but as an adopted kid myself, I felt it extremely important to seek out my biol. father (I've always known the biol. mom) and get a sense of that side of me. What it did when I found that side of the family was explain part of me that had gone unexplained. I felt I had a clearer, more complete picture of myself with the new knowledge. I feel a little more comfortable with myself having gotten to know some of the biol. father's side of the family because they exhibit certain behavioral traits that are similar to mine but not to any others of my adoptive family. So, I'm saying, while my adoptive parents did a great job of raising me, there's a lot to be said for knowing your biological history, especially psychically (and perhaps psychologically) speaking. Whether the pieces are good or bad, I'd rather have them and thus the full story on myself than a fragment. To do otherwise would be to willingly live a life in a certain amount of ignorance, and I don't approve of that at. I think it's foolish and cowardly. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 02:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: _Glory Season_ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>What health problems? Anything I/we can do to help? > >She's had Varioius Bad Things going on for a long time, including a bad >back that prevents her from -- can you believe it? -- sitting at a keyboard >for any length of time. But clearly she has not let any of it stop her >from finishing this particular piece of work, which has been in train >literally for years. If I come across any openings for health help in >her situation, I will certainly pass on the news. > >Suzy Well, I guess I'll just pray for her, then. I hope that's cool. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:22:59 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildney Cavalcanti Subject: Where late... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > As an interesting aside, I just sent the Head of the Bioethics >department here two science fiction stories to use as teaching aids in >examining bioethical issues. One was Joanna Russ' "Where late the sweet >birds sang" a classic cloning story and the other was Nancy Kress' "The >mouuntain to Mohammed". Hi, Mike, I think "Where late the sweet birds sang" was written by Kate Wilhelm, not J. Russ. Ildney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:30:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: So who is on this list? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can keep my mouth shut no longer. I am another one of the random people, I guess. I am 32, a self-employed public relations consultant writing about architectural products (yawn!). I am also, intermittently, registered part-time at the University of Sussex (Brighton, England) for a PhD in Women's Studies. My topic is feminist science fiction from the 1970s to 1990s and its intersection (or not) with feminist theory and polemic in the same period. I read science fiction and fantasy as a child, and young adult, but regarded it as a guilty secret for most of my twenties. Got bitten by the bug again about four years ago when I did an MA in Gender Studies and wrote my dissertation about _Woman on the Edge of Time_ and Shulamith Firestone's _Dialectic of Sex_. I have been unstoppable ever since. I have enjoyed Piercy, Tepper, Nicola Griffith, Melissa Scott (particularly), Lisa Mason and many many more. I enjoy a ripping yarn but am most interested in fiction that is utopian in inspiration, if not in form. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 05:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Re: Finding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Suzy, Thanks, but I've not had a request for that title. If I do, I'll put them in touch with you directly. Happy Reading David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:29:09 -0500 Reply-To: Christopher Shaffer Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christopher Shaffer Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <970707175113_-24184726@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kate Bolin wrote: > > I am beginning to wonder what type of people sign up for this >list...Do we have a lot of professors? College students? Random people? >Writers? Computer geeks? Et cetera? I guess I'm one of the random people. I'm a librarian working for the US National Library of Medicine in Chicago. I'm on this list mostly because Laura Quilter is my friend, and I have her to thank for making me aware of feminist SF literature (and for loaning so many books to me). I've been reading science fiction and fantasy since before I can remember, though I never sought out feminist works. In retrospect, it appears that a few of my favorite authors are feminists (Margaret Atwood, Ursula K. LeGuin, Tanith Lee...etc.). I do have to admit that I filter this list into a mailbox that I only open about twice a month. I've enjoyed reading the discussions and reviews. Take care, CS ----- The box said 'Requires Windows 95, or better.' So I bought a Macintosh. Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: New Joanna Russ book In-Reply-To: <970709023808_-1762410342@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "Nicola Griffith" at Jul 9, 97 02:38:08 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 97-07-08 20:31:47 EDT somebody wrote: > > << One was Joanna Russ' "Where late the sweet > birds sang" a classic cloning story >> > > Uh, that was a Kate Wilhelm story. > > Nicola > thank you Nicola - I have already been corrected and apologized for my mistake. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:38:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Unfortunately, as far as I remember, using Mars in science fiction seems to be a boy thing. But in Parable of the Sower, Butler does mention Mars, and a female astronaut who dies there. That's the best I can think up. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The computer is not a penis. Don't let men treat it like one." Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:17:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dana Stabenow (a mystery writer who wrote a SF trilogy I think before writing mysteries) has a loose trilogy, Second Star, A Handful of Stars, and Red Planet Run. The 3rd book takes place on Mars, and has an interesting twist to it. I like the books (particularly the 2nd and 3rd ones) because of the protagonist, and the stories are pretty good. I'd suggest reading the 2nd one as well, even though it has nothing to do with Mars, just to get a bit more of the set-up. They're quick reads. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Peth, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:42:56 -0400 Reply-To: Tanya Wood Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Cavendish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re Nalo and Mike Levy's comments on Cavendish. I too think that Cavendish was being ironic. The description that she was "fantastical" would be perogative in this context, but fantasy, phastasms and the like were also reckoned to be a neccesary part of the psyche. I'm just reading Paradise Lost, and in an apparently standard piece of restoration psychology (according to the footnotes of my edition) Milton considers that fancy is produced by the action of the world on the senses of the human body. It is then tempered by reason to form thought. Fantasy is only ominous when it is untempered by reason: at night when we sleep, reason retires and fantasy has a free riegn (allowing Satan to tempt Eve in a dream). As Mike Levy pointed out, most commentators saw Cavendish as completely nuts (ie her fancy was seen as untempered by reason), although Pepys was certainly as fascinated as he was appalled. She cross-dressed, engaged in scientific speculation (and was no more offbase than most scientists of the time, and was surpisingly perceptive occassionally, imagining a microscopic world of creatures living in an earring for example). She was the first woman to visit the Royal Society, and of course she wrote and published.Clearly, quite crazy! :-) There's quite alot of Cavendish criticism about these days- its a growth area, as it should be."The Blazing World" is perhaps one of the most interesting utopias of the period, where Cavendish imagines this world as one bead on a string of beads, where it is possible to pass from bead to bead via the poles (but only if you are young and beautiful enough). Cavendish ends up in an Edenic paradise as a scribe, setting up a new church where women are allowed to worship, and encouraging a fantastic array of creatures to form scientific societies (that are disbanded because they are too argumentative). Its great stuff! I do reccommend it (although the language and structure of the piece is something of a barrier). Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:43:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jeanine Pedersen Subject: Re: Birrth Control Books Joel VanLaven asked does anyone know of any sf out there that centers on birth control? What jumps immediately to mind is Huxley's Brave New World ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:16:00 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >And what's this business about her having O'Brian's baby? I missed >this whole story line - is she "fulfilling her biological destiny as a >woman" or something? Obviously, I'm pissed-off! What do other people think? > >Kym Hey, Kym. I agree with just about everything you said. I hate witnessing the femming up of characters to make them more palatable to the general public. Oh, the many many times I wish Tasha Yar would wash all that damn make-up off! SIGH. However, I do have to take objection to her pregnancy being part of that scheme (even ignoring the fact that the actress was pregnant in real life). As anyone who's been through labor knows, having a baby is only further proof of a woman's incredible _strength_, and not weakness. Joseph Campbell once defined a hero as someone who willingly risks their own life in order to save another; he said, based on that definition ALL mothers are heroes. Personally, I've always found it stunning that a woman's reproductive system could be the basis for an argument of woman's inherent weakness - I mean, think about it - we bleed for FIVE DAYS every month and don't die! No wonder men are afraid of us! :-) Laura ("Up With Ovaries!!") ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:21:35 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I think it also takes >more strength to cry in public than to bottle it up because, when that's >done, it's suppressing an emotion. Often, when you have a character who's very abrasive, very >short-tempered, what have you, you have a very insecure person, which is >what I would see the old Kira as: insecure, defensive (rightfully so) and >probably uncomfortable with herself. I also, though, see a very passionate >person and I'm glad that's been kept but not to the extent of making Kira >narrow-minded. Well said, Sean! I agree with you - it takes incredible moral strength to recognize that some of your behaviors aren't working for you and to adjust yourself accordingly. What a leap it was for Kira to go from tough and defensive to being able to cry openly. How admirable. And while I agree that it's more interesting to see a character develop, I think Kira's transformation wasn't gradual enough for me - that is, I would have liked to have seen more "slips" on her part. A person just doesn't make 180 degree turns like that. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:07:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Birrth Control Books In-Reply-To: <970709124348_1047209459@emout01.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Jeanine Pedersen wrote: > Joel VanLaven asked > does anyone know of any sf out there that centers on birth control? > > > What jumps immediately to mind is Huxley's Brave New World Maybe it was a stupid question but in my mind, Brave New World is an example of a work about alternative means of reproduction rather than specifically about birth control. Many sf works involving alternate means of reproduction have advanced birth control of some form or other in there it seems to simply enforce the new method of reproduction. An example of sf that might be specifically about birth control (sort of) would be _The Handmaids Tale_ because the extremists in charge are supposedly reacting to a decreasing birth rate. (I sort of remember/assume that this was due in large part to increased use of birth control). Thanks for the suggestion though, -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:49:43 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Mars Michelle Kendrick writes: >We are interested in exploring Mars as a cultural >artifact -- exploring the powerful mythos and the scientific >discourse... I have no women yet in the loop, which is depressing >me... I can't offhand think of any recent women writers who have used Mars, but what about Leigh Brackett? (More on the mythic than the scientific dimension, perhaps) Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:56:04 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Birrth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >An example of sf that might be specifically about birth control (sort of) >would be _The Handmaids Tale_ because the extremists in charge are >supposedly reacting to a decreasing birth rate. (I sort of >remember/assume that this was due in large part to increased use of birth >control). Actually, the reduced fertility rate was due to environmental reasons - toxic build-up, etc. Great book, BTW! Laura ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:47:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would have liked >to have seen more "slips" on her part. A person just doesn't make 180 >degree turns like that. > >Laura Laura, Unless she's a total schizo (grin). Thank God she's not, although that'd be an interesting plot twist. Seriously, thanks for the affirmation. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildiko Paulovitch Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn Nalo, Not a problem, here it is: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:12:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildiko Paulovitch Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn Nalo, Whoops, sorry got a little carried away with my mouse and sent an unfinished letter. Here it really is: http://www.adlbooks.com/ enjoy, ildiko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:46:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: mitchison, Naomi Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu Comments: cc: Katja Baron Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Katja & feminist-sf-ers, I'm sending this note to the feminist-sf listserve -- I haven't read THE CORN QUEEN AND THE SPRING QUEEN; maybe someone else on the list has. >From: "Katja Baron" >Organization: JOGU Mainz - FASK >To: lauramd@uic.edu >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:35:19 GMT +0100 >Subject: mitchison, Naomi >Priority: normal >Status: O >X-Status: > >Hello Laura! I just found you on the Internet, and I wonder If you can >help me? My name is Katja and I am a Senior at University in Germany. >For my final exams I have to turn in a paper, which has to be about >80 pages long on any interesting subject that has to do with my >studies. As I am studying English, besides Italian, I chose the book >"The Corn King and the Spring Queen" by Naomi Mitchison to write my >report on. Besidse some newspaper articles I have not yet found any >other secondary literature on this book, and I wonder if you could >give me some further information on books, articles ets. that relate >to that book. It would be very nice If you would >answer.(Baronk@nfask2.fask.uni-mainz.de) > I hope to hear from you soon > > Katja > Laura M Quilter lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:45:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re Kira, and the discussion of how she's changed, I think there's really two things going on. On the one hand, yes she's gone through some great character development, I especially like the storylines which pull out the complexity of the war and it's aftermath, and her relationships with and feelings about cardassians. Fleshing her out so that she shows more emotions, becomes more confident etc is great. I'm all for character development. BUT, at the same time I can't help but see some changes in the characters appearance and actions as an attempt to make her more 'acceptably feminine' and more definitively heterosexual. Kira, like Ro Laren, was beloved by many lesbians as having a certain familiar feeling. Around here we began referring to "Bajor planet of the dykes." The episodes with alternatie universe evil Kira were totally sexually charged, talk about lesbian narcissism!! Then at the beginning of last season, all of a sudden, Kira starts wearing heavy makeup, having more feminine hair, subtle wardrobe changes, and a lot more references to her heterosexuality. Call me a conspiracy theorist but this didn't seem accidental to me. In a similar vein Dax's relationship with Worf did come not long after she had the best lesbian kiss on television. Doomed quick relationship with a woman, followed by a long serious one with a very macho main man. And what's with this relationship anyways? He's a total neanderthal, extremely sexist and emotionally a corpse. Dax in love is cool. Dax in love with a man, sure I can take it. But Dax dating WORF seems to run counter to her previous character. And now my heart belongs to B'ellana Torres... Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:52:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: joanna goltzman Subject: Le Guin quote Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anastasia wrote: I will now offer a quote from Ursula LeGuin. It is in their sexuality that human beings can be most easily enslaved. ... The politics of the flesh are the root of all power. Anastasia, do you know what book/article that quote came from? If you could give me a page number, too, that would be great. Thanks. Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Re Kira, and the discussion of how she's changed, I think there's really >two things going on. On the one hand, yes she's gone through some great >character development, I especially like the storylines which pull out the >complexity of the war and it's aftermath, and her relationships with and >feelings about cardassians. Fleshing her out so that she shows more >emotions, becomes more confident etc is great. I'm all for character >development. > >BUT, at the same time I can't help but see some changes in the characters >appearance and actions as an attempt to make her more 'acceptably >feminine' and more definitively heterosexual. Kira, like Ro Laren, was >beloved by many lesbians as having a certain familiar feeling. Around >here we began referring to "Bajor planet of the dykes." The episodes with >alternatie universe evil Kira were totally sexually charged, talk about >lesbian narcissism!! Then at the beginning of last season, all of a >sudden, Kira starts wearing heavy makeup, having more feminine hair, >subtle wardrobe changes, and a lot more references to her heterosexuality. >Call me a conspiracy theorist but this >didn't seem accidental to me. > >In a similar vein Dax's relationship with Worf did come not long after she >had the best lesbian kiss on television. Doomed quick relationship with a >woman, followed by a long serious one with a very macho main man. And >what's with this relationship anyways? He's a total neanderthal, >extremely sexist and emotionally a corpse. Dax in love is cool. Dax in >love with a man, sure I can take it. But Dax dating WORF seems to run >counter to her previous character. > >And now my heart belongs to B'ellana Torres... > >Robin Gordon > >-------------------------------------- >"I am the wall with the womanly swagger." >Judy Grahn Robin, Okay, there are a couple of things to clear up here: first of all, that lesbian kiss Dxs allegedly did could be intrepreted as hetero- or homosexual because the two, as I remember, were opposite sexes when they (Kirzon? and this woman) were together before. I think the writers were toeing the edge of what the studio'd allow and this is as close as they could get. Also, the story being what it was, there was the opportunity to get all sorts of DS9 fans in a lather without really offending anyone who paid attention to the story. Secondly, it sounds as though you and your friends feel betrayed by the current portrayal of Kira because of some makeup and a different hairstyle. My question would be: so? She's the same person as she was when she sported no makeup and the shorter hair. She's more fleshed-out, is all. Anyway, disappointment I can see and understand, but do you feel betrayed? If so, this is cause for concern and I'd suggest letting the creators of DS9 know your discontentment. Star Trek has always been so run by fans, ultimately, that I think they'd listen to you. Finally, does it really run counter to Dax's previous character and what was Dax's previous character? If you think about it, both Dax and Worf are physical people in the sense that they like physical activity, they're both mentally tough, though in different ways and they could both feel like outsiders in that they're so unique on the station. What I mean is, to my knowledge, Worf's still the only Klingon in Starfleet and Dax is still the only Trill at least on DS9. It's something else they have in common. Additionally, you have to consider where Worf's coming from before labeling him macho and sexist and all: Look at the Klingon homeworld and how women are treated there. Answer: the same as men. It's not that Worf looks down on females. He'll respect anybody who's brave, honorable and good in a fight, somebody who appreciates and can be counted on in battle. It's his culture and I think the women of the culture would feel the same way. The only people Worf looks down on are people who are without honor, really, male or female. Any supposedly sexist behavior, I think, would be performed out of concern for Dax (think of the reasons he wasn't with anybody for most of STNG: most of the women were humans, hmans are frailer than Klingons, generally speaking, and Klingon sex is pretty rough [see certain episodes of DS9 for proof]), not out of a sense of superiority or a desire for domination. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: LA - BLOODSONG readings by Karen Minns this FRI, SAT, SUN (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fyi - thought this might be of interest to some los angelenos ... Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:11:54 -0700 From: M Gillon Reply-To: LEZBRIAN -- Lesbian and Bisexual Women Library Workers * To: LEZBRIAN@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: BLOODSONG readings by Karen Minns this FRI, SAT, SUN Karen Minns, author of the great new vampire novel "BLOODSONG" will be reading from the novel at the following locations in Los Angeles county this weekend. "BLOODSONG" received a rave review in the July issue of Lesbian News; pickup a copy and read it while you decide which reading you will attend (hint, hint). Friday evening, 8pm, A Different Light in West Hollywood. Saturday, 3pm, Page One in Pasadena Sunday 2pm, Dark Delicacies in Burbank Hope to see you at one of these times. Bring your fangs!!! Margaret Gillon *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** Bluestocking Books URL: http://home.earthlink.net/~griffgill/index.html EMAIL: m.gillon@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: netiquette In-Reply-To: <199707091305.JAA01539@mail.med.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please try to keep quoted material down to no more than the size of the reply. This would be less important if the list were less successful! Neil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:57:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: SM Charnas In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SMCharnas wrote: >At 11:40 AM 7/7/97, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >>Speaking of "who is on this list," Janice and Susan commented: > >>>offensive in the portrayal of the inter-gender relations. The idea that >>>men and women just can't, literally and unequivocally and universally >>>-can't- understand each other. >How would it all stand if we were actually built on a three-footed model? Or if we came to sentience by a path which didn't come down out of trees, so everything wasn't Higher or Lower? Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:46:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: shopping experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, I took the plunge: I went to our local (Chicago) sf bookstore (Stars Our Destination) and went through the used books. (I was going anyway.) The store has recently begun separating the best finds in use books onto a special shelf (at somewhat higher prices). I selected pretty narrowly; I skipped old Hugo winners; I passed up _The Iron Dream_, _Courtship Rite_ and _The Best of Leigh Brackett_. I offer to list members copies of (in no particular order!): _Jinian Star-Eye_, Sheri Tepper _Dreamsnake_, Vonda McIntyre _The Jagged Orbit_, John Brunner _Triton_, Chip Delaney _Picnic on Paradise_, Joanna Russ _Rite of Passage_, Alexei Panshin _Babel-17_, Chip Delaney _A Mask for the General_, Lisa Goldstein _Warm Worlds and Otherwise_, James Tiptree, Jr. _The Left Hand of Darkness_, Ursula K. LeGuin _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_, Sheri Tepper PLEASE REPLY PERSONALLY TO AND NOT TO THE LIST. I will report the results of this experiment to the list! Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:10:05 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 9 July, 1997, Robin Gordon wrote: >BUT, at the same time I can't help but see some changes in the characters >appearance and actions as an attempt to make her more 'acceptably >feminine' and more definitively heterosexual. Kira, like Ro Laren, was >beloved by many lesbians as having a certain familiar feeling. Around >here we began referring to "Bajor planet of the dykes." The episodes with >alternatie universe evil Kira were totally sexually charged, talk about >lesbian narcissism!! Then at the beginning of last season, all of a >sudden, Kira starts wearing heavy makeup, having more feminine hair, >subtle wardrobe changes, and a lot more references to her heterosexuality. >Call me a conspiracy theorist but this >didn't seem accidental to me. > >In a similar vein Dax's relationship with Worf did come not long after she >had the best lesbian kiss on television. Doomed quick relationship with a >woman, followed by a long serious one with a very macho main man. And >what's with this relationship anyways? He's a total neanderthal, >extremely sexist and emotionally a corpse. Dax in love is cool. Dax in >love with a man, sure I can take it. But Dax dating WORF seems to run >counter to her previous character. The one thing I truly like about both of these characters is that they both seem to be comfortable with themselves as powerful women. They are two of the most fully realized female characters I've ever seen on TV. I don't see Kira's change in physical appearance as a weakening of character, nor do I see the fact that she's blatantly heterosexual as a feminine weakness. Kira has had pretty equitable heterosexual relationships without losing her own sense of herself and her goals, which is what I think is important to show no matter one's sexual preference. I also don't see Dax's relationship as anomalous to her character. Sure, Klingons are a bit Neanderthal. And Dax trips him up with that at every turn. She's a good influence on him. And he doesn't repress her in any way (the times he's tried, she's gone on being herself, which is something else important to show). I admit, I hadn't noticed the timing you pointed out, but I think it's important for women to note that they can be heterosexual and strong, making decisions without fear of being condemned as female and experiencing balanced relationships without losing themselves. These incidents with Kira and Dax seemed to me to show confident women making choices with which they were comfortable, without demeaning themselves in the process. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Peth, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:41:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Laura, I didn't mean at all that having a baby made Kira "weak". I just think it would have been more subversive for her to have her own child, with or without a co-parent (male or female) instead of having a baby for a heterosexual couple. I agree with you completely about a woman's reproductive system as a basis for her inherent weakness, and I think this applies to Kira's character. Her reproductive system was directed in the production of a child for a heterosexual male (and his wife), not in the production of her own child. I think this links up with another thread on the list, about reproductive technologies: Kira the revolutionary is now Kira the surrogate womb. All I'm saying is that the way the writers constructed her pregnancy (Kira the character, not Nana Visitor the woman), it seems less empowering for her than it potentially could have been. The pregnancy story, in addition to the other changes in her character's appearance & behavior, point to a deliberate strategy to make Kira more acceptably "feminine". Kym > >However, I do have to take objection to her pregnancy being part of that >scheme (even ignoring the fact that the actress was pregnant in real life). >As anyone who's been through labor knows, having a baby is only further >proof of a woman's incredible _strength_, and not weakness. Joseph >Campbell once defined a hero as someone who willingly risks their own life >in order to save another; he said, based on that definition ALL mothers are >heroes. Personally, I've always found it stunning that a woman's >reproductive system could be the basis for an argument of woman's inherent >weakness - I mean, think about it - we bleed for FIVE DAYS every month and >don't die! No wonder men are afraid of us! :-) > >Laura ("Up With Ovaries!!") ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:41:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is exactly what I mean. I think you're right, Robin, about both Kira & Dax. The issues is representation: these are fictional characters created by writers who are working within a particular set of political confines. This is not even a "conspiracy" - representation of gender & sexuality in mainstream film & tv is really limited and limiting, and when there are exceptions to that rule, with characters like Kira, Dax, or even Ellen (the coming out episode), these characters are ultimately reigned in in some way or another. I think we need to differentiate issues of representation and the social & political forces that shape representation in mainstream media from psychological justifications about why characters appear or act the way they do. What do other people think? Are these issues clearer in literature than they are for tv? Kym > >BUT, at the same time I can't help but see some changes in the characters >appearance and actions as an attempt to make her more 'acceptably >feminine' and more definitively heterosexual. Kira, like Ro Laren, was >beloved by many lesbians as having a certain familiar feeling. Around >here we began referring to "Bajor planet of the dykes." The episodes with >alternatie universe evil Kira were totally sexually charged, talk about >lesbian narcissism!! Then at the beginning of last season, all of a >sudden, Kira starts wearing heavy makeup, having more feminine hair, >subtle wardrobe changes, and a lot more references to her heterosexuality. >Call me a conspiracy theorist but this >didn't seem accidental to me. > >In a similar vein Dax's relationship with Worf did come not long after she >had the best lesbian kiss on television. Doomed quick relationship with a >woman, followed by a long serious one with a very macho main man. And >what's with this relationship anyways? He's a total neanderthal, >extremely sexist and emotionally a corpse. Dax in love is cool. Dax in >love with a man, sure I can take it. But Dax dating WORF seems to run >counter to her previous character. > >And now my heart belongs to B'ellana Torres... > >Robin Gordon > >-------------------------------------- >"I am the wall with the womanly swagger." >Judy Grahn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:43:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" About the crying: First, I'm trying to distinguish between the representation of a fictional character and the psychology of an actual human being. Literally every time I turned on the show this past year, Kira was crying. The other characters don't cry nearly as much, if at all. This is an extreme turnaround in a character that was originally written very differently. Her crying, in addition to the physical changes in her appearance, and the increasing references to her heterosexuality culminating in her giving birth for someone else to me shows a major re-working of the character, Major Kira, into something more palatably "feminine". Secondly, I am not at all trying to suggest that crying makes a character or a human being weak. All I'm saying is look at how all this works together to change the representation of this female character. I think this is different also from the issue of "character development". Kym >>I think it also takes >>more strength to cry in public than to bottle it up because, when that's >>done, it's suppressing an emotion. > > Often, when you have a character who's very abrasive, very >>short-tempered, what have you, you have a very insecure person, which is >>what I would see the old Kira as: insecure, defensive (rightfully so) and >>probably uncomfortable with herself. I also, though, see a very passionate >>person and I'm glad that's been kept but not to the extent of making Kira >>narrow-minded. > >Well said, Sean! I agree with you - it takes incredible moral strength to >recognize that some of your behaviors aren't working for you and to adjust >yourself accordingly. What a leap it was for Kira to go from tough and >defensive to being able to cry openly. How admirable. And while I agree >that it's more interesting to see a character develop, I think Kira's >transformation wasn't gradual enough for me - that is, I would have liked >to have seen more "slips" on her part. A person just doesn't make 180 >degree turns like that. > >Laura ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:42:57 +0930 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Brigid Venables." <9309629n@MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: postfeminism Comments: To: Sean Johnston In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Folks, > We've got, sort of, definitions of feminism. Great. Anybody want > to define, succinctly, postfeminism and throw out a grenade or two on how > that'd relate to SF? Are you talking about postmodern feminism (i.e. - Kristeva, Irigaray, etc) - in which case, I wonder if a succinct definition is helpful. Truly, I'm not trying to be a "smartarse", but I think it is far more helpful to explore theories of postmodernity within the genre of science fiction - for example, Donna (Harroway?)'s "Cyborg Manifesto". I have my ideas, but I wanna see yours before I show > you mine (sorry. That was sooo juvenile ;-) ). Translation: I'm still > working on a definition of postfeminism. > > -Sean > I think it is a fascinating pursuit: as a sci-fi writer, however, I know that these concepts aren't very marketable - would someone please tell me that I'm wrong, as I'm sick and tired of writing for the 'white, male and paranoid' market. (isn't that nasty - I"m sorry.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:14:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..was So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All I'm saying is look at how all this >works together to change the representation of this female character. I >think this is different also from the issue of "character development". > >Kym > Kym, Fair enough. Now turn the tables: what if this stuff, save for the pregnancy, had happened to Sisko and he was the one crying all the time. Would you take exception to that? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:05:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I admit, I hadn't noticed the timing you pointed out, but I think >it's important for women to note that they can be heterosexual and strong, >making decisions without fear of being condemned as female and experiencing >balanced relationships without losing themselves. These incidents with >Kira and Dax seemed to me to show confident women making choices with which >they were comfortable, without demeaning themselves in the process. > Elizabeth, Bravo. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I think we need to differentiate issues of representation and the social & >political forces that shape representation in mainstream media from >psychological justifications about why characters appear or act the way >they do. What do other people think? Are these issues clearer in literature >than they are for tv? > I don't think you can and still be fair, holistically-speaking, because they're interwined. Social and political forces are empowered by people of certain views. These views are formed by a certain frame of mind, or personal psychology, which in turn is made up by a certain socialization, which is---you get the idea. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:44:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:49 AM 7/9/97, Lesley Hall wrote: >I can't offhand think of any recent women writers who have used Mars, but what >about Leigh Brackett? (More on the mythic than the scientific dimension, >perhaps) Aren't some of C.L. Moore's Northwest Smith stories set on Mars? I'm pretty sure the famous "Shambleau" is. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:44:41 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: What is feminism? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:14 AM 7/9/97, Sean Johnston wrote: >did when I found that side of the family was explain part of me that had >gone unexplained. I felt I had a clearer, more complete picture of myself >with the new knowledge. On that ground, I would agree with you that there could be, for many adoptees, a strong urge to "fill in the blanks", I guess. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:44:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: _Glory Season_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:18 AM 7/9/97, Sean Johnston wrote: >>>What health problems? Anything I/we can do to help? >>literally for years. If I come across any openings for health help in >>her situation, I will certainly pass on the news. >Well, I guess I'll just pray for her, then. I hope that's cool. Thinking good thoughts toward somebody is always cool, in my book. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:02:27 +0930 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Brigid Venables." <9309629n@MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Test Tube Babies Comments: To: Laura Wigod In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The issue of reproductive technology is fresh on my mind at the moment, as I am writing a short story (short? well - its about 50 thousand words long at the moment, but I'm cutting as we speak) about cloning - this concept is very interesting, but also - I think - far more frightening than anonymous sperm and egg donation. But we have new technology for everything, from organising magazines to cooking our dinner: possibly the question we should be asking is - why is sex (or the absence of it in the reproductive process) such an issue - and what stereotypical behaviour / expectations eminate from these 'issues' viz 'the genders'. And speaking of stereotypcial behaviouro - regarding the male pill - why shouldn't men want to control their reproductive capacity? After all, as far as I know, most of them men I associate with who've had children still bond with them. Brigid Venables. On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Laura Wigod wrote: > >>And I wont even start with the etical issues surrounding all of the new > >>reproductive technology - but one question - how would you feel if you > >>were born of combination anonymous sperm and egg donation and carried by > >>a surrogate and would never in your life have any idea where your human > >>roots were? > > Ummmm.............better than a child who was rejected by its parents after > birth? Better than a child severely abused by its biological parents? > And.....speaking for many of us, I'm sure....better than a child who is > Only Too Aware of the genetic code it's carrying around! ;-) > > Laura > > P.S. - On the male birth control pill issue, I have serious, admittedly > cynical, thoughts about how motivated a guy would be to take it when the > repurcussions of an unplanned pregnancy have zero physical affect on him. > I mean, he could _lie_ and say he's on it. Sure, so could a woman, but, if > she gets pregnant, _she_ suffers the consequences, not the "father." > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:40:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: postfeminism In a message dated 97-07-08 14:02:36 EDT, you write: << We've got, sort of, definitions of feminism. Great. Anybody want to define, succinctly, postfeminism and throw out a grenade or two on how that'd relate to SF? I have my ideas, but I wanna see yours before I show you mine (sorry. That was sooo juvenile ;-) ). Translation: I'm still working on a definition of postfeminism. >> My reply, in the form of a quote: "I am not a postfeminism feminist. I am the Third Wave." --Rebecca Walker, _To Be Real_ Hope Cascio ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:41:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: finding Elisabeth Vonarburg In a message dated 97-07-06 15:30:27 EDT, you write: << This is stretching, but I'd check out S.M. Charnas' _Scorched Supper on New Niger_ in _The Year's Best Science Fiction_, 13th edition, edited by Gardner Dozois. There's a lot of other good stuff in there (incl. 2 LeGuin stories), so it's worth the $17.95 US ($25.99 Can.) >> These anthologies are ALWAYS worth the dough. I reread them constantly, and usually find my favorites from Isaac Asimov's in there. Hope ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:02:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Men/women communication styles In a message dated 97-07-08 22:46:50 EDT, you write: << I think there are distinct differences in masculine and feminine styles of expression, if not of thought, although how in hell we can ever untangle how much is "inborn" from how much is culturally inculcated I do not know. Certainly the more you suspend the rules about which sex may use which styles the more blurring and cross-over you get, but how to tell what that means? In some cases it's reaction against required norms, in others per- haps a function of unusual childhood circumstances or body chemistry, or who knows what else. >> I read a book a few years ago... I believe it was translated from French and entitled _The Ice People._ About a lost human culture (the lost city of Atlantis) and two citizens who are revived in modern times and relate the experiences of their culture. One interesting point about the culture was that men and women literally spoke two different languages. Hope ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:59:28 +0930 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Brigid Venables." <9309629n@MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Men/women communication styles Comments: To: Hope Cascio In-Reply-To: <970709220218_1446560017@emout04.mail.aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In response to this claim- > > << I think there are distinct differences in masculine and feminine styles > of expression, if not of thought, although how in hell we can ever untangle > how much is "inborn" from how much is culturally inculcated I do not know. I'd like those who know a little more about cyborg theory to help me here, please - but I wonder why it is necessary to 'untangle' that which is inborn from that which is culturally inculcated, in order to achieve a coherent and interesting narraative style. > Certainly the more you suspend the rules about which sex may use which > styles the more blurring and cross-over you get, but how to tell what that > means? RAther than suspending rules about sex, why not see them from a variety of creative perspectives? Regarding science fiction - technology could be used to 'mask' or subvert ones sex or sexuality (we haven't even started on queer theory), or to make the rules a little more flexible. Brigid Venables. In some cases it's reaction against required norms, in others per- > haps a function of unusual childhood circumstances or body chemistry, or > who knows what else. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:45:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rather than center on birth control per se, the tendency is to center on either infertility, The Handmaid's Tale, or mystery-writer P.D. James's SF novel of a few years back (I forget the name), lack of birth control, Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar, Harrison's Make Room, Make Room and numerous others, or on alternate ways of getting pregnant, ie. Motherlines and other feminist-separatist utopias. One book in which birth control does play a vital part is The Gate to Women's Country, in which the women practice it with most of the men so that they can secretly breed a less violent human raise by only having babies by the more gentle men who have opted for city life. It seems to me, although I can't think of the titles off hand, that there are several novels which simply assume that women learn to control fertility pretty much by an act of will. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:55:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn ??? In-Reply-To: <970709161058_-1695420221@emout01.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: ????? here *what* is? Send it to me next Tues; I'm going nomail until then. Tks, -nalo On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Ildiko Paulovitch wrote: > Nalo, > Not a problem, here it is: > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:55:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Lizzie Lynn In-Reply-To: <970709161222_-924321101@emout19.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: :) Got it this time. -nalo On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Ildiko Paulovitch wrote: > Nalo, > Whoops, sorry got a little carried away with my mouse and sent an > unfinished letter. Here it really is: http://www.adlbooks.com/ > enjoy, ildiko > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:56:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Le Guin quote In-Reply-To: <199707092052.PAA13891@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Me too, please! -nalo On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, joanna goltzman wrote: > Anastasia wrote: > > I will now offer a quote from Ursula LeGuin. > > It is in their sexuality that human beings can be most easily enslaved. > ... The politics of the flesh are the root of all power. > > > Anastasia, do you know what book/article that quote came from? If you could > give me a page number, too, that would be great. Thanks. Joanna > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:57:01 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: Re: book exhange/shopping service In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970707091429.006aa5a0@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:14 AM 7/7/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: >So for a while, I've been wondering about suggesting to this list some sort >of book-exchange or shopping-service arrangement. I have no particular >organizational details in mind, more general friendly functionality. I will be putting together a book-exchange/shopping service page for this website, which will include: 1) a list of [independent] booksellers for used, rare & out-of-print sf books and how to contact them; 2) a list of willing acquisitions contacts & whether they want exchange or money (and in what currency); and 3) a list of "titles wanted" (specify hardback or paperback and publishing info if you have it), with contact info and price range you're willing to pay, and/or exchange you're willing to make. 4) a list of "titles available" (hb or pb, edition, condition, publishing info), with contact info and price and/or exhannge you want. Elizabeth Pandolfo has volunteered be to an acquisition contact for British books, Laura Quilter for the U.S. mid-West. I have a friend, Mary Tuttle, who is a book scout here in the U.S. Rocky Mt. region. How about a U.S. east-coast and U.S. west-coast contact? And are any of you Canadians, Australians, other Europeans willing to be acquisitions contacts (search for, procure, and ship books from your area) for love or money? I think that there should be at least a 10% fee for scouting/acquisitions of rare books. Please send to me, via personal e-mail, any additional suggestions and info you'd like included on this page (names and contact info for bookstores, your contact info as an acquisitions rep, titles and publishing info for books you're looking for along with a price range you're willing to pay, esp. for rare/out-of-print books). My address is hollyy@sprynet.com. PLEASE PUT *FEM-SF BOOK EXCHANGE/SHOPPING* IN THE SUBJECT LINE. This is going to be an "honor-system" good-faith exchange, so don't ask for titles you're not really willing to pay for. Otherwise our aquisitions contacts may get burned [out], ok? Hope to hear from you-all soon. Holly ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:36:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: Mars In a message dated 97-07-09 18:18:33 EDT, kbolin@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (Kate Bolin) writes: > Unfortunately, as far as I remember, using Mars in science fiction seems > to be a boy thing. I had trouble myself coming up with any examples of Mars fiction written by women. Might this be because the heyday of Mars in sf was the 40's and 50's, before there were many women writing sf? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:36:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: James Morrow: Only Begotten Daughter I recently read this book and wondered what others on the list thought of it. Only Begotten Daughter tells of a single man who is a regular sperm donor at a research facility. Through what may be a miracle and is explained as "inverse parthenogenesis," an embryo appears in one of his specimens. He brings it to term in a stolen ectogenesis machine. Thus is born Julie Katz, the Daughter of God. I'm not sure the book qualifies as feminist, but there are some strong feminist leanings in it. And some wonderfully funny satirical passages. What did others think of it? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:14:51 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: *FEM-SF BOOK EXCHANGE/SHOPPING* In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970710215701.006a7ef0@m3.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, you might find "Basement Full of books" to be a useful resource: http://www.sff.net/bfob Best, Vonda On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:57:01 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:14 AM 7/7/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: >>So for a while, I've been wondering about suggesting to this list some sort >>of book-exchange or shopping-service arrangement. I have no particular >>organizational details in mind, more general friendly functionality. > >I will be putting together a book-exchange/shopping service page for this >website, which will include: > >1) a list of [independent] booksellers for used, rare & out-of-print sf >books and how to contact them; > >2) a list of willing acquisitions contacts & whether they want exchange or >money (and in what currency); and > >3) a list of "titles wanted" (specify hardback or paperback and publishing >info if you have it), with contact info and price range you're willing to >pay, and/or exchange you're willing to make. > >4) a list of "titles available" (hb or pb, edition, condition, publishing >info), with contact info and price and/or exhannge you want. > >Elizabeth Pandolfo has volunteered be to an acquisition contact for British >books, Laura Quilter for the U.S. mid-West. I have a friend, Mary Tuttle, >who is a book scout here in the U.S. Rocky Mt. region. How about a U.S. >east-coast and U.S. west-coast contact? And are any of you Canadians, >Australians, other Europeans willing to be acquisitions contacts (search >for, procure, and ship books from your area) for love or money? I think >that there should be at least a 10% fee for scouting/acquisitions of rare >books. > >Please send to me, via personal e-mail, any additional suggestions and info >you'd like included on this page (names and contact info for bookstores, >your contact info as an acquisitions rep, titles and publishing info for >books you're looking for along with a price range you're willing to pay, >esp. for rare/out-of-print books). My address is hollyy@sprynet.com. PLEASE >PUT *FEM-SF BOOK EXCHANGE/SHOPPING* IN THE SUBJECT LINE. > >This is going to be an "honor-system" good-faith exchange, so don't ask for >titles you're not really willing to pay for. Otherwise our aquisitions >contacts may get burned [out], ok? > >Hope to hear from you-all soon. > >Holly > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:16:24 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: *FEM-SF BOOK EXCHANGE/SHOPPING* In-Reply-To: <33c47dac.1754231@mail.oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yikes, that was embarrassing, I'd intended to send the note to Holly directly, lurk on the list for a few days, and then say "Hi." So sorry. I guess it could have been worse; I could have posted "subscribe" to the whole mailing list. Anyway, hi. Dreamsnake is about birth control. Vonda On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:14:51 GMT, you wrote: >Hi, you might find "Basement Full of books" to be >a useful resource: > >... http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:22:53 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 9 Jul 97 , Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Rather than center on birth control per se, the tendency is to > center on either infertility, The Handmaid's Tale, or mystery-writer > P.D. James's SF novel of a few years back (I forget the name), lack The title of P.D. James's SF novel is 'The Children of Men'. In my opinion the starting-point of the novel is great, but the plot and the ending are very weak. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 05:45:20 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: James Morrow: Only Begotten Daughter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anny Middon wrote: > > I'm not sure the book qualifies as feminist, but there are some strong > feminist leanings in it. And some wonderfully funny satirical passages. > What did others think of it? Morrow seems to be making a career of writing (what are to some) sacrilegious SF stories. I enjoyed _Only Begotten Daughter_, but his point of having the title character being female seems only to tweak the noses of those who are so sure Jesus in His second coming will again be male. OBD has some good stuff in it, like the scene where Julie visits her half-brother (the big JC) in hell, finding him dispensing water to the hotly damned, totally unaware that a whole religion has grown up around Him. Overall, I felt the book fell apart in the middle, as if Morrow just had this great idea and didn't know what to do once he'd written the set-up, and never really recovered. It's been some years since I read the book, but I recall that Julie's father's best friend was a lesbian. I don't recall there being much about sexual politics, though. Berni Phillips bernip@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:13:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: Le Guin quote In-Reply-To: <199707092052.PAA13891@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> from "joanna goltzman" at Jul 9, 97 03:52:05 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura - it is in one of her new stories in the four ways to forgiveness. A wonderful, wonderful work. I will check page numbers for you this evening. > > Anastasia wrote: > > I will now offer a quote from Ursula LeGuin. > > It is in their sexuality that human beings can be most easily enslaved. > ... The politics of the flesh are the root of all power. > > > Anastasia, do you know what book/article that quote came from? If you could > give me a page number, too, that would be great. Thanks. Joanna > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:53:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Welcome Vonda! In-Reply-To: <33c98c14.5442797@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Vonda, happy to see you on the list. I wanted to seize the moment to say thanks for the casual and elegant way you dealt with family structures including same sex relationships and polysexuality in the Starfarers series. As you may have noticed a real roll call has been going on on the list, and many of us have mentioned a short list of our favourite authors. Care to tell us who yours are? I'd pose the same question for our other authors out there. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:18:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: Test Tube Babies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 10 July, 1997, Brigid Venables wrote: >But we have new technology for everything, from organising >magazines to cooking our dinner: possibly the question we should be >asking is - why is sex (or the absence of it in the reproductive process) >such an issue - and what stereotypical behaviour / expectations eminate >from these 'issues' viz 'the genders'. Well, LeGuin and Delaney both point out that sexual relations form the power base of a society (LeGuin pointing out women will never be equal until sexual relations are; Delaney discussing the economics inherent in sexual relationships). If reproduction no longer requires sex, that changes the fundamental power structure completely. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Pesh, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:46:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > creators of DS9 know your discontentment. Star Trek has always been so run > by fans, ultimately, that I think they'd listen to you. Unfortunately Sean, this has not been the experience of the lesbian and gay fans of star trek. There is a length history of queer fans lobbying for star trek to live up to their claim that queers exist and aren't discriminated against in the ST universe. The response has been extremely disappointing, first the episode of STNG where Riker falls in love with a deviant "feminine" person from a planet of enforced androgyny, far from placating queer fans this episode came across as very homophobic and very sexist. And I still see homophobia at play in what has happened with Kira's and Dax's (to a lesser extent) characters. It seems clear to me that at a certain point the producers decided that Kira was too dykey, and a concerted effort was made to "straighten" her up. Robin -------------------------------- Resistance is Fruitful. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:54:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Reshaping characters... was Star Trek: Kira In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Kym Ragusa wrote: > > I think we need to differentiate issues of representation and the social & > political forces that shape representation in mainstream media from > psychological justifications about why characters appear or act the way > they do. What do other people think? Are these issues clearer in literature > than they are for tv? > Kym, interesting question. My frist reaction is that tv is different because of it's serial on going nature. In television ideas, plots, characters, are introduced, audience response judge, changes made, more audience responde, back and forth. It seems an essential part of the medium that there's a dialectic between creators and 'the majority' audience. Books and film come to us in a more final form, and while authors and studios may try to anticipate the reactions and feelings of the audience, they can't react to them once the product is out, and go back and make changes. Unless, I suppose, it's a series. Robin ----------------- Resistance is Fruitful ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:13:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Robin Gordon wrote: > On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > creators of DS9 know your discontentment. Star Trek has always been so run > > by fans, ultimately, that I think they'd listen to you. > Um....not recently. Viacom's been shutting down websites and fanzines that use their copyrighted material, even though the fans were the ones that made Star Trek what it is today. And, obviously, they're not listening to the fans when it comes to plots, because if they were doing that, Voyager wouldn't be as bad... Just my thoughts, kate ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:19:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Men/women communication styles In-Reply-To: <970709220218_1446560017@emout04.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:02 7/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-08 22:46:50 EDT, you write: > ><< I think there are distinct differences in masculine and feminine styles > of expression, if not of thought, although how in hell we can ever untangle > how much is "inborn" from how much is culturally inculcated I do not know. > Certainly the more you suspend the rules about which sex may use which > styles the more blurring and cross-over you get, but how to tell what that > means? In some cases it's reaction against required norms, in others per- > haps a function of unusual childhood circumstances or body chemistry, or > who knows what else. >> > Suzette Haden Elgin has some interesting things to say about men/women communication in American culture (she carefully does NOT extend this to 'everyone...'): male communication often gets filtered by the kind of team sports boys routinely play together; female communication uses a different filter, more individual-sport oriented, and with a very different take on many items. (She explained this in an evening's talk she gave here a few years ago, and I have lost much of the underlying support data.) This shows up most clearly in definitions of "right" and "wrong." A male would more often judge something "right" or at least "OK" if no one knows it happened -- if the referee doesn't call a penalty, that is. A woman would more often judge "the same" incident on the basis of an absolute -- "we don't DO that" or "it was wrong no matter who knows about it." I recommend her books on Verbal Self-Defense, as well as on other topics, and really enjoy her bi-monthly publication, "Linguistics and Science Fiction." (Available from OCLS, PO Box 1137, Huntsville, AR 72740-1137 for about $10 a year.) She reads widely, speaks wisely (even though I often disagree with her, I always have to reason out WHY), and always says fascinating things. Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:25:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:45 7/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >snip> >One book in which birth control does play a vital part is The Gate to >Women's Country, in which the women practice it with most of the men so >that they can secretly breed a less violent human raise by only having >babies by the more gentle men who have opted for city life. Also, of course, Shore of Women (who only reproduce when they entice a male into their web...) > >It seems to me, although I can't think of the titles off hand, that there >are several novels which simply assume that women learn to control >fertility pretty much by an act of will. > > >Mike Levy > In at least one of Elgin's _Native Tongue_ books, exactly that happens. The woman involved gets punished for it, as I recall. Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:46:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Groppi Subject: Re: James Morrow: Only Begotten Daughter In-Reply-To: <33C468E0.7744@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Berni Phillips wrote: > It's been some years since I read the book, but I recall that Julie's > father's best friend was a lesbian. I don't recall there being much > about sexual politics, though. She was indeed a lesbian. One of my favorite quotes from the book: "Look at us... the all-American family. Who'd ever know it's a hermit, a bastard, a dyke, and a deity?" -- Susan groppi@hcs.harvard.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i found god in myself and i loved her i loved her fiercely -- n.shange ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:51:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Kendrick Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: <970710013615_473403438@emout04.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well then, seems like a market niche for women :-) Anyone wanna write a good feminist Mars novel? Michelle _______________________________________________________________ Michelle R. Kendrick Assistant Professor of English Washington State University 14204 NE Salmon Creek Avenue Vancouver, Washington 98686 (360)546-9645 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:47:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It seems clear to me that at a >certain point the producers decided that Kira was too dykey, and a >concerted effort was made to "straighten" her up. > >Robin >-------------------------------- >Resistance is Fruitful. Robin, Well, I s'pose it's possible. Maybe they wanted her to conform more to some notion of what most people think is sexy and have people at least tune in to see her. I wouldn't put it past them, but I'd require proof before I believed something like that. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > Um....not recently. Viacom's been shutting down websites and >fanzines that use their copyrighted material, even though the fans were >the ones that made Star Trek what it is today. And, obviously, they're >not listening to the fans when it comes to plots, because if they were >doing that, Voyager wouldn't be as bad... > > >Just my thoughts, >kate Well, that makes sense, though. Copyright is copyright and just because the fans support you doesn't mean you should allow yourself to be taken advantage of by them. A true fan would respect that copyright. If I sound abrasive, I don't mean to. I'm just being frank. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:42:50 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Birrth Control Books Further to my earlier posting re Naomi Mitchison, her 'Solution Three' posits the societal inculcation of near universal homosexuality as a solution to global overpopulation (plus very selective cloning). Her view on this--while I'm thinking about it and typing--is almost diametrically the reverse of Tepper's in 'Gate to Women's Country'; i.e. far from sexual drives being biologically innate, most people will do what society expects/approves, except for a small handful of non-conformists (there are a few unregenerate, somewhat stigmatised, heterosexuals with children left in her society)--the social conditioning argument taken almost to its utmost. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:35:24 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: mitchison, Naomi Katja writes My name is Katja and I am a Senior at University in Germany. >For my final exams I have to turn in a paper, which has to be about >80 pages long on any interesting subject that has to do with my >studies. As I am studying English, besides Italian, I chose the book >"The Corn King and the Spring Queen" by Naomi Mitchison to write my >report on. Besidse some newspaper articles I have not yet found any >other secondary literature on this book, and I wonder if you could >give me some further information on books, articles ets. that relate >to that book On the whole Mitchison has been sadly neglected as a subject of critical study except for some work on her later sf novels such as 'Memoirs of a Space Woman' and 'Solution Three'. This may relate to the rather low status which historical fiction (even as transformed from forsooth-pishtushery by NM) holds--though I don't notice many studies of her contemporary (1930s) social-problems novel 'We Have Been Warned' either. Also she was very prolific, which somehow tends to lessen critical respect? Doesn't fit readily into any 'modernist' canon even when revised to include women. I once came across a copy of the ?1980s US p/back reprint under the title 'The Barbarian' (yuck, huh?) in a women's bookshop, on the flyleaf someone had pencilled 'not politically correct'.... There is a bio of NM by Jill Benton which tho rather chatty and not (as I recall) deeply analytical does have quite a lot on CK & SQ (though possibly purely in respect of the biog circumstances of its writing--some while since I read it) and there is a major biographical study of NM (100 this year I believe and still going strong) coming out shortly from Jenni Calder. I have among my own files a rather brief though highly positive review of CK&SQ by Stella Browne published in the birth control/sex reform periodical 'The New Generation'. (NM was a great pillar of the UK b-c movement and once attended the Malthusian Ball wearing earrings made out of contraceptives [this story may be apocryphal]) There are also comments about CK&SQ, the writing of historical fiction, the initial critical response etc, in NM's own autobiographies, principally 'You May Well Ask' (on the interwar years). Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:37:19 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Welcome Vonda! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Robin, Thanks for the welcome, and for the kind words on the Starfarers books. My favorite authors... difficult list; it changes even as the tides. The last couple years I've mostly been reading nonfiction, as the book I was writing (The Moon and the Sun) is set in 1693 in the court of Louis XIV at Versailles, a time in history about which I knew nothing when I began. (Not surprising; I was always a science nerd & didn't know much history at all. Now I know a _lot_ about Versailles in September, 1693.) Vonda On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:53:03 -0400, you wrote: >Vonda, > >happy to see you on the list. I wanted to seize the moment to say thanks >for the casual and elegant way you dealt with family structures including >same sex relationships and polysexuality in the Starfarers series. > >As you may have noticed a real roll call has been going on on the list, >and many of us have mentioned a short list of our favourite authors. Care >to tell us who yours are? > >I'd pose the same question for our other authors out there. > >Robin Gordon > >-------------------------------------- >"I am the wall with the womanly swagger." >Judy Grahn > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Emilie Falc Subject: Re: postfeminism In-Reply-To: <970709214011_1994274430@emout04.mail.aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT << We've got, sort of, definitions of feminism. Great. Anybody want to define, succinctly, postfeminism and throw out a grenade or two on how that'd relate to SF? In her book, Feminism and Science Fiction, Sarah Lefanu (1989) notes that Some writers take upon themselves, and bestow upon their female characters the mantle of authority that until now had been reserved for heroes and their male authors. Some might call this "post-feminism"--we can all be heroes now--but I would not. (p. 87) Lefanu does not offer a new label for these heroes, and perhaps labels are not necessary. However, I find that feminist heros often have that authority but use it in non-violent or cooperative ways. Those heros that use a more traditional heroic approach, say using brute strength to save someone, seem to me to be liberal feminist, not post-feminist. Emilie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:57:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Emilie Falc Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT --I don't know of any that centers on birth control, but I thought the Starfarer Series by McIntyre provided an interesting solution. Birth control is a learned practice using a kind of self-surveillance/discipline. Men and women control the levels of hormones in their body (controlling reproductive organs and also controlling issues like beard growth). So I suppose if guys are walking around with stubble you can assume they're not in control of their hormones. And nobody is punished for not having children. Emilie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:27:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Test Tube Babies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:18 AM 7/10/97, Elizabeth Pandolfo wrote: >If reproduction no longer requires sex, that >changes the fundamental power structure completely. I believe that was the basis of Shulamith Firestone's theory of in vitro baby-making as the gateway to women's freedom in THE DIALECTICS OF SEX, an early radical feminist/Marxist text that blew my teeny mind when I read t in -- college, I think. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:27:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 6:22 AM 7/10/97, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >On 9 Jul 97 , Michael Marc Levy wrote: > >> Rather than center on birth control per se, the tendency is to >> center on either infertility, The Handmaid's Tale, or mystery-writer >> P.D. James's SF novel of a few years back (I forget the name), lack > >The title of P.D. James's SF novel is 'The Children of Men'. In my >opinion the starting-point of the novel is great, but the plot and >the ending are very weak. I can't say that I've read it -- I stopped reading James when I realized that in a preponderance of her mystery novels the murder hinged on some awful woman having had (gasp!) an abortion because she just couldn't be bothered raising a child. I did skim THE CHILDREN OF MEN, and it seemed to me to run true to form at least to this extent: the climax/ending was the resumption of human procreation (after a hiatus for reasons I don't recall) with the birth of -- GUESS WHAT? -- a son. Naturally. Suzy unless, of course, I am remembering it wrong and have described some other book -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:45:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Men/women communication styles In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Brigid Venables." <9309629n@MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> wrote: >In response to this claim- >> >> << I think there are distinct differences in masculine and feminine styles >> of expression, if not of thought, although how in hell we can ever untangle >> how much is "inborn" from how much is culturally inculcated I do not know. > >I'd like those who know a little more about cyborg theory to help me >here, please - but I wonder why it is necessary to 'untangle' that which >is inborn from that which is culturally inculcated, in order to achieve a >coherent and interesting narrative style. What is "cyborg theory"? I don't have the entire thread in front of me, but was "coherant and interesting narrative" the original point? >Regarding science fiction - technology could be >used to 'mask' or subvert ones sex or sexuality (we haven't even started >on queer theory) "Queer theory"? I have trouble making sense of the phrase. What do you mean? Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:40:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Men/women communication styles In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970710094508.006edf18@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Neil Rest wrote: [snip] > >>Regarding science fiction - technology could be >>used to 'mask' or subvert ones sex or sexuality (we haven't even started >>on queer theory) > >"Queer theory"? I have trouble making sense of the phrase. What do you mean? ACK. In my opinion discussion of just that question alone is worthy of months or years of my time. I spent two years in college in a "Queer Theory Discussion Group" that was led by a brilliant, dynamic young prof. Rarely did we discuss anything at all except for "What is Queer Theory?." I was left with the impression that in a really cool interesting and strange way, a cornerstone of Queer Theory is the process of discussing it. Unfortunately, this is a sci-fi group and while we would discuss sci-fi every once in a while, I think that the discussion would tend to leave this group's mission. In a sound byte, I see queer theory as an anti-normative philosophy pushing ever-more complex views of difference and similarity, exloration and embracement of other possibilities and world views, acceptance of discomfort, and celebration of the "other". In particular and in it's genesis, Queer theory has a sexuality focus. However, I do not see it as asking for a piece-meal "seat at the table" for any particular group but as calling for fundamental changes to our divisive, inaccurate, and hegemonic a or b culture across all such lines like race, sex, sexuality, and spirituality. However, the goal is not comfort. The goal is reasonable, invigorating, life-affirming discomfort. In many ways, science fiction fits right into Queer Theory. As far as I know, it is also many similarities to Cyborg theory. I would love to hear what someone else has to say about it. Perhaps I only saw one version of Queer Theory and in general usage it doesn't mean what I think at all. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:56:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Dreamsnake! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am so glad that "Dream Snake" was mentioned. (McIntrye, Vonda N. 1978. New York: Dell. ISBN: 0-440-11729-1). Something besides Ursula LeGuin that I have actually read. Great story. I like the people: Melissa, Grum, Snake. . . I like that a place I have never been was made real to me. I like how the reader learns the history of this place and of the peoples: gradually and indirectly. (Such as by the visit to the broken dome. . .). It's done well. I like that disability in various forms is introduced WITHOUT being a metaphor directed toward a main character (unless I am really missing something). I'd love to discuss this book with anyone who is interested. I am too tired to be succinct right at the moment. There are many aspects of this book deserving attention. Until I saw Vonda's response to an email about stories regarding reproduction, I had not considered "Dream Snake" to be SF. Duh! I don't get out much. <:) What is even better is that I am reminded that there is a character who is a girl with a disability in this novel. I am collecting references for a bibliography of girls and women in fiction with disabilities and have a new one to add! YEA! BTW, this bibliography is on-line at my personal website and is available to be shared with all. If you come across any girls and/or women with disabilities in your reading (SF or other), I would be very glad for the information. Thanks. Ironic that the author would be the human who indirectly reminded me, yes? Lindy Lovvik -- "If the world were a logical place, men would ride side-saddle." Rita Mae Brown Visit Laorka's Web: http://www.best.com/~laorka ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:34:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Birth Control and Love in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diane Duane's "Tales of the Five" series describes a land/world where everyone is required to "fulfill the obligation," (sexually reproduce), at least once before they are permitted to marry. One of the main characters, Herewis, is a man who is not only born with an unusual amount of Fire, but who learns to focus and use it for the good of the world. His beloved is a king-to-be, on the run in search of the way to his thrown. In this society, lovers and spouses are often the same sex. Many of the characters have engaged in both different sex love/friendship relationships and same sex love/friendship relationships. Nice place to visit. Lindy Lovvik -- "If the world were a logical place, men would ride side-saddle." Rita Mae Brown Visit Laorka's Web: http://www.best.com/~laorka ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:25:04 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 10 Jul 97 , SMCharnas wrote: > At 6:22 AM 7/10/97, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > >The title of P.D. James's SF novel is 'The Children of Men'. In my > >opinion the starting-point of the novel is great, but the plot and > >the ending are very weak. > > I can't say that I've read it -- I stopped reading James when I > realized that in a preponderance of her mystery novels the murder > hinged on some awful woman having had (gasp!) an abortion because > she just couldn't be bothered raising a child. I did skim THE > CHILDREN OF MEN, and it seemed to me to run true to form at least to > this extent: the climax/ending was the resumption of human > procreation (after a hiatus for reasons I don't recall) with the > birth of -- GUESS WHAT? -- a son. Exactly. The reason why for 25 years no children were born was never explained. I've got the impression that James meant it as a divine affliction. In many of her mystery novels religion is a topic. An important point was also that the mother was (very) slightly handicapped and thus not considered in the large government programs to test for fertility in women. On other birth control books: Has somebody already suggested 'Barrayar' by Bujold? Birth control is not the 'main' interest but it is part of the background of the novel. The heroine Cordelia Naismith is from the planet Beta. There, all women get an implant after their first menstruation. Wish to be parents have to apply for the right to get a child after they pass an exam on parenting. In vitro or in vivo pregnancies are both common. Naismith marries somebody from the militaristic, patriarchal Barrayar and moves there. They want a child immediately. It is extensively discussed how strange an in vivo pregnancy feels for Naismith. Furthermore, briefly a fantasy of her is described to get as many children as possible, now that there are no restrictions. One gets the impression that Bujold thinks that without outer pressure (no money or space restrictions) women like to get children by the dozen. That reminds me of the Darkover novel by Marion Zimmer Bradley, in which the first colonists land on Darkover. In that novel it is explicitly stated that without overpopulation women would want to get more and more children and that emancipation, learning and practising a profession is only a meager substitute. That book made me really angry (in that respect Zimmer Bradley succeeds quite often in her books). Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:26:34 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Dreamsnake! In-Reply-To: <33C5AED2.53C0@Best.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the kind words. TEHANU is intimately concerned with a girl who is disabled. Vonda On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:56:02 -0700, you wrote: >I am so glad that "Dream Snake" was mentioned. >(... >disability in this novel. I am collecting >references for a bibliography of girls and women >in fiction with disabilities and have a new one >to add! YEA! > >BTW, this bibliography is on-line at my personal >website and is available to be shared with all. >If you come across any girls and/or women with >disabilities in your reading (SF or other), I >would be very glad for the information. > >Thanks. Ironic that the author would be >the human who indirectly reminded me, yes? > >Lindy Lovvik >-- >"If the world were a logical place, men would > ride side-saddle." Rita Mae Brown > >Visit Laorka's Web: http://www.best.com/~laorka > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda Signing Party & reading: THE MOON AND THE SUN by Vonda N. McIntyre Thursday, 14 August, 7:00 p.m. Sparkling Cider & Dilettante truffles! University Book Store 4326 University Way NE Seattle WA 98105 University Book Store: http://www.bookstore.washington.edu/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:53:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re[2]: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax Comments: To: Kate Bolin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kate Bolin wrote: >Um....not recently. Viacom's been shutting down websites and >fanzines that use their copyrighted material, even though the fans were >the ones that made Star Trek what it is today. And, obviously, they're >not listening to the fans when it comes to plots, because if they were >doing that, Voyager wouldn't be as bad... >Just my thoughts, >kate Speaking of Voyager, let me plug one of my pages: "500 plus reasons why Babylon 5 is better than Voyager" http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/1672/voyager.html Chuck0 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:03:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Re[2]: Star trek again..Major Kira and Commander Dax Comments: To: CMUNSON In-Reply-To: <0007AEA8.1205@aaas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Speaking of Voyager, let me plug one of my pages: "500 plus reasons > why Babylon 5 is better than Voyager" > > http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/1672/voyager.html > > Chuck0 Well, hell, if he's plugging his "B5 better than Star Trek" page, I have to plug mine. http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin/b5/b5st.html Or just go to my Ubiquitous Babylon 5 Page and find it there. http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin/b5.html Kate Bolin silly B5 addict ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:15:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: queer theory; was Re: Men/women communication styles In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > >"Queer theory"? I have trouble making sense of the phrase. What do you mean? > > In a sound byte, > I see queer theory as an anti-normative philosophy pushing ever-more > complex views of difference and similarity, exloration and embracement of > other possibilities and world views, acceptance of discomfort, and > celebration of the "other". In particular and in it's genesis, Queer > theory has a sexuality focus. However, I do not see it as asking for a > piece-meal "seat at the table" for any particular group but as calling for > fundamental changes to our divisive, inaccurate, and hegemonic a or b > culture across all such lines like race, sex, sexuality, and spirituality. > However, the goal is not comfort. The goal is reasonable, invigorating, > life-affirming discomfort. > > I would love to hear what someone else has to say about it. Perhaps I > only saw one version of Queer Theory and in general usage it doesn't mean > what I think at all. > > -- Joel VanLaven > Joel, I think this is quite a good explanation. I thought I'd add my two cents worth. First it's important to know that the word queer itself is like a battleground, or sometimes quicksand. It's used in two popular ways (1)as an inclusive term that goes beyond gay, & lesbian, to include bi, transsexual, transvestite, transgendered generally, s&m practitioners, and other sex/gender deviants. (2)and/or as as something beyond just an identity politic, implying a radical opposition to the dominant sex/gender/hetero norms/system, closely associated with Queer Nation. I find in popular usage it means two conflicting things, either a more inclusive identity politic, or the rejection of a me too identity politic in favour of a radical way of looking at sexuality and the world. But maybe these things aren't in such conflict, 'identity politics' are necessarily a conservative place at the table thing. Anyways, hope that helps some. Robin --------------------- Resistance is fruitful. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:13:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Birth Control Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the subject of birth control books, has anybody mentioned _Benefits_ by Zoe Fairbairns? The spark for the novel arose from the debates around Wages for Housework, but there is much about state control of reproduction. Chemicals are introduced to the water supply to make women infertile. Women wishing to reproduce have to apply for the antidote and have to fit certain state-determined criteria - usual right-wing and eugenicist clap-trap. Unfortunately, the side effect of this chemical intervention is that most (all?) of the subsequent children are born with birth defects. It's some time since I read the novel, but I found it very interesting, if - at times - too obviously a thought-experiment. It's definitely worth a read. Joan Haran ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:18:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Teresa Tavormina" Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And yet another reply to the roll call -- Tess Tavormina here, in the English Department at Michigan State University (hi, Ruth Ann!). Medievalist; reader of myth, fairy tale, science fiction, popularized science, and the general dragon/dinosaur narrative field since childhood; sometime director of the Clarion Workshop (hi, Nalo and Nicola!); occasional teacher of science fiction (in courses on apocalyptic fictions, science writing, and this coming fall on Science Fiction and Gender); and committer of a small handful of pieces of critical print on sf (LeGuin twice--once on The Dispossessed and once on Earthsea--and Miller's Canticle once). But mostly I've done things about medieval marriage and family in literature and (new research direction) medieval medical texts. I too tend to read the list in batches (the last week's worth of material has been both fascinating and daunting, especially to come back to after a long 4th of July weekend away from the computer -- but I think I've gotten through it now!! :) and am delighted to meet so many of you). For my sins, I'm presently in an admin. post at MSU, which means I only rarely get time to send to the two or three lists I've held on to, but I'm reading with you silently whenever I can. Like Michelle Kendrick earlier this year, I'd like to ask the list if there are any objections to my encouraging the class I'm teaching this fall to lurk on the list so that they can learn from other folk deeply engaged with issues relevant to gender issues in sf. The usual provisos about letting the class (this one has 40 students in it, mainly sophomores and up, with some honors freshmen) know about netiquette, etc. Any problems for anyone? The "lens" by which the course will be focused, for those who may be interested, will be the Tiptree Award. Karen Fowler and Pat Murphy offered the MSU Library's Special Collections department the archive of Tiptree materials -- books, stories, cookbooks, postcards, quilt photos, etc., etc. -- a couple of years ago, and the Spec. Colls. librarians jumped at the chance. Almost all course readings and assignments will draw from the Tiptree lists (e.g., Ammonite, China Mountain Zhang, Memoirs of Elizabeth Frankenstein, "Mountain Ways," etc.), including the retrospectives and a couple of Tiptree's own stories (plus parts of Khatru 3&4, Lefanu, and Russ's To Write Like a Woman for a 20-year spree of theoretical discussions). And I'm thinking of having a potluck for the class at the end, asking them to draw recipes from the cookbooks. I love classes that involve physical/material activity as well as intellectual/verbal: readers theater, graphic concept mapping, food and drink (the old symposium tradition). Thanks to everyone for the last several months of wonderful discussions, which have been splendid preparation for teaching this course -- I've learned tremendous amounts from you all and am looking forward to more. Tess ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:27:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Mars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Bibliographical query re: Leigh Brackett's Mars: "The Coming of the Terrans" (Ace, 1967) collects Brackett's Mars stories , "Sword of Rhiannon" is evidently a Mars tale, and the Eric John Stark series is about a Mars "outlaw." Are there other Brackett Mars books? -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." -Isaac Asimov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Letting students listen in, was Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970711122042.2eefb112@pilot.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Tess, Hope your class on SF and gender is fun. Don't be surprised, however, and I'm going on my experience last year in a similar class, if your students are a lot more conservative than you dreamed was possible. I have no objection whatsoever to students listening and even participating in this list, but, again based on experience with other lists--most notably in children's literature--I'd suggest that they not only have to know standard netiquette, but a couple of other things as well. First, it has to be made very clear to them that this list should not be used as a substitute for doing research. A question like "What did Elizabeth Cummins mean in her book on Ursula K. LeGuin when she said (whatever)?" is likely to be treated with more respect, than a question like "Are there any good books out there on Ursula K. Le Guin?" (although that one isn't really all that bad) or, worse yet "Why aren't there any good books on Ursula K. LeGuin?" (a question a student once asked on a children's lit list I'm on, believe it or not). Other bad questions I've seen asked by students who are on an academic or sercon list because they're taking a class in the subject include "Why do you guys have to take things so seriously?" "Why do you have to dig so deep into stuff? Why can't you just enjoy it?" "Don't you guys have any sense of humor?" (usually asked after the student, speaking out of ignornace, has said something incredibly insulting). Other problems: Students will occasionally ask questions that go beyond what's allowable in terms of getting help on their papers. Students will ask genuinely basic questions, that show that they haven't read the assigned readings for the class. This may even include a request for plot summaries, believe it or not. Students will occasionally quote material from the list verbatim in their own papers (plagarism), often without permission or documentation. Students who discover that a well-known author can be reached through the list, will occasionally bug that author well-beyond good manners. (You're famous, after all. What right do you have to privacy?) Tess, please note, I'm not trying to discourage you from signing up your students, but I've seen all these things happen, some of them quite frequentlym even after students have been warned about how to behave. The Child-Lit listserv had a very unpleasant experience with a class of students this past Spring, many of whom committed the above mentioned errors in great numbers. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:22:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Letting students listen in, was Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for the warning. As list-mistress (I really like the sound of that!) it's ok with me if students subscribe en masse or one at a time. Perhaps the teacher(s) can draw up a draft "how to use listserves" in class that would be helpful to their students. Actually, it would be helpful to me to see the sorts of guidelines teachers would use about this. I think it is GOOD for teachers to proactively get their students out there, rather than ignoring resources and then being upset to see the students (mis)using them. But appropriate use of Internet resources (such as discussion groups) is an important topic for teaching faculty to consider. In fact, I have to run workshops about this topic in the fall, hence my interest in the subject. Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Hi Tess, > > Hope your class on SF and gender is fun. Don't be surprised, however, > and I'm going on my experience last year in a similar class, if your > students are a lot more conservative than you dreamed was possible. > > I have no objection whatsoever to students listening and even > participating in this list, but, again based on experience with other > lists--most notably in children's literature--I'd suggest that they not > only have to know standard netiquette, but a couple of other things as > well. > > First, it has to be made very clear to them that this list should not be > used as a substitute for doing research. A question like "What did Elizabeth > Cummins mean in her book on Ursula K. LeGuin when she said (whatever)?" is > likely to be treated with more respect, than a question like "Are there any > good books out there on Ursula K. Le Guin?" (although that one isn't really > all that bad) or, worse yet "Why aren't there any good books on Ursula K. > LeGuin?" (a question a student once asked on a children's lit list I'm on, > believe it or not). > > Other bad questions I've seen asked by students who are on an academic or > sercon list because they're taking a class in the subject include "Why do > you guys have to take things so seriously?" "Why do you have to dig so > deep into stuff? Why can't you just enjoy it?" "Don't you guys have any sense > of humor?" (usually asked after the student, speaking out of ignornace, has > said something incredibly insulting). > > Other problems: > > Students will occasionally ask questions that go beyond what's allowable in > terms of getting help on their papers. > > Students will ask genuinely basic questions, that show that they haven't > read the assigned readings for the class. This may even include a request > for plot summaries, believe it or not. > > Students will occasionally quote material from the list verbatim in their > own papers (plagarism), often without permission or documentation. > > Students who discover that a well-known author can be reached through the > list, will occasionally bug that author well-beyond good manners. (You're > famous, after all. What right do you have to privacy?) > > Tess, please note, I'm not trying to discourage you from signing up your > students, but I've seen all these things happen, some of them quite > frequentlym even after students have been warned about how to behave. The > Child-Lit listserv had a very unpleasant experience with a class of students > this past Spring, many of whom committed the above mentioned errors in great > numbers. > > Mike Levy > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:57:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Letting students listen in, was Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Getting students more and more online is the new buzz-word here at the Center for Research on Women. It's why we got a nifty grant to buy us a well-stocked computer lab (something that a techie like me drools over). I tend to think that part of the reason why more feminist science fiction isn't being created is because girls are still taught at an early age that technology is a "boys-only world". I mean, look at a lot of feminist science fiction that is out there. From what I've read, it's very low-tech. A lot of primitive colonies, a lot of ecologically-based "natural" habitats, etc. It's almost as if feminist science fiction writers are continuing the stereotype of technology being a male field by making their works as technologically incapable. Maybe it's just what I've seen. Our Center's library is notorious for rarely adding new books... kate Bolin Who's just looking for some good feminist cyberpunk ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A keyboard may be a better equalizer than a Glock .45, but I still prefer the .45" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >On other birth control books: Has somebody already suggested >'Barrayar' by Bujold? >Naismith marries somebody from the militaristic, patriarchal >Barrayar and moves there. They want a child immediately. It is >extensively discussed how strange an in vivo pregnancy feels for >Naismith. Furthermore, briefly a fantasy of her is described to get >as many children as possible, now that there are no restrictions. One >gets the impression that Bujold thinks that without outer pressure >(no money or space restrictions) women like to get children by the >dozen. My impression of Bujold is that her characters are individuals and don't represent large classes or categories. Part of the point of the Miles stories is that they center on a very unusual individual. Of course some women would want large numbers of children (without estimating how many women that "some" is!). And certainly, many more would think about it a little, or fantasize about it some. Neil ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:52:22 +0930 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Brigid Venables." <9309629n@MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: Michelle Kendrick In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Michelle Kendrick wrote: > Well then, > > seems like a market niche for women :-) Anyone wanna write a good > feminist Mars novel? > > Michelle Watch this space. Brigid Venables > > _______________________________________________________________ > Michelle R. Kendrick > Assistant Professor of English > Washington State University > 14204 NE Salmon Creek Avenue > Vancouver, Washington 98686 > (360)546-9645 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:03:57 +0930 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Brigid Venables." <9309629n@MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Test Tube Babies Comments: To: SMCharnas In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >If reproduction no longer requires sex, that > >changes the fundamental power structure completely. > > I believe that was the basis of Shulamith Firestone's theory of in vitro > baby-making as the gateway to women's freedom in THE DIALECTICS OF SEX, > an early radical feminist/Marxist text that blew my teeny mind when I read > t in -- college, I think. > Suzy > It blew my teeny mind as well - (and what a name!) - but now it troubles me greatly. I recently commenced a novel in which a group of radical feminists had harnassed cloning in order to produce children 'sans' the man, basing my theory around what I now realise was radical feminist ideology still lodged in the brain. In the end, I couldn't convince myself that this was all it took. Thankyou very much for this enthusiastic discussion - I've been inspired to go back and re-read all the Ursula Le Guin novels of my childhood: obviously if there's a comment to be made in the genre of feminist science fiction, she's probably already made it. Brigid Venables. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Michelle Kendrick wrote: > >> Well then, >> >> seems like a market niche for women :-) Anyone wanna write a good >> feminist Mars novel? >> >> Michelle > >Watch this space. >Brigid Venables > >> Brigid, Are you a writer, too? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:31:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Teresa Tavormina" Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tonight's NBC evening news had a feature in their "American Spirit" series on Donna Shirley, the Program Manager for the Pathfinder mission. Inter alia, she noted that it was she who named Sojourner for a woman; she also says she's been interested in getting to Mars one way or another all her life. An engineer from Oklahoma, she was shown with her college-age daughter looking at the stereo images of the landscape at one point in the report (gist of daughter's response: "That's really cool, Mom"); Shirley's description of Mars exploration is that it is "sort of like the day my daughter was born--that this was something new in the Universe." Shirley is by no means the only woman involved at high levels at JPL, though it does seem that a lot of the press conferences are done by guys there. I'm lucky enough to have a sister who's got a similar role in the Cassini mission to Saturn, which won't start making news until the next millennium. But for Mars in this millennium, Michelle, you might want to contact Dr. Shirley at JPL. On the side: Thanks to Mike for a good listing of some of the pitfalls he's seen with student subscriptions to a listserve; I've seen some of these pits fallen into on other lists, but it's a help to have reports of some of the warnings others have found necessary to provide to new users. Like Laura and Kate, I like seeing students who might otherwise not cotton on to technology find out how much useful fun and what satisfying workplay it can be. Tess ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970711084339.006b8554@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > > >Naismith marries somebody from the militaristic, patriarchal > >Barrayar and moves there. They want a child immediately. It is > >extensively discussed how strange an in vivo pregnancy feels for > >Naismith. Furthermore, briefly a fantasy of her is described to get > >as many children as possible, now that there are no restrictions. One > >gets the impression that Bujold thinks that without outer pressure > >(no money or space restrictions) women like to get children by the > >dozen. > Perhaps it's because Lois is a friend of mine, but I can't help feeling that this is a very unfair characterization of her. Lois is divorced and has two kids. Although she has plenty of money now, she and her children went through some very lean years (her husband was something of a ne'er do well). She does love kids and maybe she wishes she'd had more, I don't know, but that isn't really relevant. What is relevant is that she's writing about a specific, individual character who happens to love kids, as many women (and men) do, and who happens to fantasize about having lots of kids, as some women (and some men) do. To imply that she would unilaterally extend that characterization to women in general like some right-wing family values crazy is entirely off-base. Mike Levy (who occasionally gets huffy) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:14:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Letting students listen in, was Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kate Bolin wrote: > Getting students more and more online is the new buzz-word here at the > Center for Research on Women. It's why we got a nifty grant to buy us a > well-stocked computer lab (something that a techie like me drools over). > > I tend to think that part of the reason why more feminist science fiction > isn't being created is because girls are still taught at an early age that > technology is a "boys-only world". I mean, look at a lot of feminist > science fiction that is out there. From what I've read, it's very > low-tech. A lot of primitive colonies, a lot of ecologically-based > "natural" habitats, etc. > It's almost as if feminist science fiction writers are continuing the > stereotype of technology being a male field by making their works as > technologically incapable. > > Maybe it's just what I've seen. Our Center's library is notorious for > rarely adding new books... > > kate Bolin > Who's just looking for some good feminist cyberpunk > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kate, have your library buy everything it can get its hands on by Joan Slonczewski, Linda Nagata, Octavia Butler, Pat Cadigan, and Catherine Asaro (not to mention C.J. Cherryh's Cyteen) and you'll never again think of women as writing exclusively low-tech sf. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:17:21 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: Mars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit M. Teresa Tavormina wrote: > > Tonight's NBC evening news had a feature in their "American Spirit" series > on Donna Shirley, the Program Manager for the Pathfinder mission. (snip) > Shirley is by no means the only woman involved at high levels at JPL, though I really enjoyed tuning in to CNN today for an update on the mission and seeing five (!) women doing commentary. Their specialties ranged from astronaut to NEWSWEEK reporter. They were well-informed and interesting--and fun! Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go down? (g) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:35:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <1A49F9D6203@calc.vet.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was introduced to science fiction in grade school when a friend recommended _The Martian Chronicles_. Then I read everything I could find by Ray Bradbury. Later I discovered Jules Verne and read everything I could find by him -- without really considering the fact that he was translated. I don't remember which was first feminist sf book I read was. May have been _The Female Man_. Now I'm a translator, and among other things, I translate feminists and feminist sf. Elisabeth Vonarburg has been mentioned a few times on this list. I am currently her translator. So far, I have translated a story for the _Tesseracts 5_ anthology (Tesseract Books, 1997), two stories for the forthcoming _Tesseracts 6_ anthology and I am working on two novellas for a forthcoming publication in a collection of her short fiction. Then, I suppose I'll start on the Tyranaël series (five books!). I have also recently published a new translation of the Quebec feminist classic _L'Euguélionne_ by Louky Bersianik (_The Euguelion_ (Montreal: Alter Ego Editions, 1996)). This book, first published over 20 years ago, is sometimes classified as science fiction (no spaceships, tachyon beams or blasters); it is about "a sister from another planet" who comes to Earth searching for the male of species. For more, visit the Alter Ego Web site: http://www.alterego.montreal.qc.ca/ Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services Montreal, Quebec, Canada alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:18:09 -0700 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: Mars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just remembered that there's a feminist utopia set on Mars: _Unveiling a Parallel: A Romance_, by Ella Merchant & Alice Ilgenfritz Jones, 1893. A nameless male narrator journeys to Mars & "discovers a society where women enjoy equality with men." (I'm quoting from the back cover of the recent Syracuse Unviersity Press edition.) He meets Elodia, a community leader, who drinks excessively, has lovers, and uses drugs. Her behavior confounds his expectations about women's supposedly pious and pure `natures' and reveals that equality, if rooted in a patriarchal culture, is not necessarily a utopian virtue. In contrast, a more perfect state of development has been reached in a second country on Mars, where the narrator learns how unselfishness, nurture, and mutual support can offer visible alternatives to passive, chaste, femininity or to greedy, lustful, masculinity." Also on the back cover is a blurb from +The Saturday Evening Post_, 1893: "The strength of two unusually brilliant minds has gone into the making of this unique book." Obviously, these two women from Cedar Rapids had quite different imaginative tendencies than did Wells, & the others who imagined Mars as a source of rapacious hostility... Timmi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:22:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Changing e-mail address Comments: To: lwms-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu I lost it, of course... the directions for subscribe/unsubscribe. Could someone either e-mail me or just make the change for me? I'm moving to hcascio@gte.net (from hcascio@aol.com). GTE should be active in a day, AOL for the remainder of the billing period, at any rate. Thanks! Hope ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:43:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: High-tech feminist sci-fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've read Cyteen, back when I was 13. Maybe it was my age, but I found it rather dry. I always read Octavia Butler. But, even then, she doesn't really get into technology. The aliens in the "Xenogenesis" trilogy focus more on changing things biologically than technologically. "Parabale of the Sower", while it is one of my favorite books of all time, doesn't have any technology to speak of. With Butler, it seems like that the technology is there, but that her characters have chosen to live without it. Kate ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A keyboard may be a better equalizer than a Glock .45, but I still prefer the .45" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:18 PM 7/11/97, M. Teresa Tavormina wrote: >Like Michelle Kendrick earlier this year, I'd like to ask the list if there >are any objections to my encouraging the class I'm teaching this fall to >lurk on the list so that they can learn from other folk deeply engaged with >issues relevant to gender issues in sf. The usual provisos about letting >the class (this one has 40 students in it, mainly sophomores and up, with >some honors freshmen) know about netiquette, etc. Any problems for anyone? Sounds great to me. >The "lens" by which the course will be focused, for those who may be >interested, will be >the Tiptree Award. (snip) >a potluck for the class at the end, asking them to draw recipes from the >cookbooks. I love classes that involve physical/material activity as well >as intellectual/verbal: readers theater, graphic concept mapping, food and >drink (the old symposium tradition). I AM JEALOUS OF YOUR STUDENTS. Course sounds great. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:10:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:43 AM 7/11/97, Neil Rest wrote: >Of course some women would want large numbers of children (without >estimating how many women that "some" is!). And certainly, many more would >think about it a little, or fantasize about it some. I think that the "wanting vast #'s of children" is largely an historical artifact born (gg) of the necessity, until recently, to raise big families in order for them to defend the homestead/do the farming/survive to take care of the parents in their old age. Now that large families tend to = large expenditures of family income + environmental capital some of that atti- tude is dying away in rich countries. It's also a new thing for many women to actually have a) access to pretty reliable birth control and b) work on which they can support themselves. This makes being "a good breeder" and a good, stable, devoted mom who is happy raising kids just an option instead of the only approved game in town. Give us another generation or two of these new conditions (spreading and improving, I hope), and we may begin to get some idea of the porpor- tion of women who come to big-family attitudes out of genuine autonomous desire rather than cultural pressures that are economic at base. Betcha it boils down to a lot fewer young women than our current frantically pro- baby culture dreams of (we are in the throes of terror about a rapidly "graying" population; guess who's assigned the job of fixing this, at what- ever personal sacrifice). The fact that so many young women already postpone or eschew pregnancy to work at jobs that are *not* well paid or all that great in terms of status and advancement suggests the baby-maker model as a default setting for a majority of women rather than a positive choice: if that's the behavior that society validates in us, that's what most of us will do if we can. No mystery about it, and not much biology, either. If as an author I were writing a major female character with a fierce case of baby-lust in a future human society, I would want to place that character's attitudes in this (extrapolated) context of birth control and life-work alternatives. Or else I would include hints of how birth con- trol and interesting, decently-paid, outside-the-home work for women disappeared again after surfacing in the 20th century wealthy West. I should add that my daughter-in-law wanted four kids -- a large family by modern American professional-class standards -- because she was one of four siblings and she had a very happy childhood, which she wishes to pass on -- to duplicate? -- for children of her own. An opposite condition -- that of having a childhood that leaves a girl desperate for somebody to really love her even if she has to literally create that somebody in her own body -- can also motivate girls to want baby after baby, if the reports of social workers and psychologists are to be believed. These kinds of situations strike me as plaus- ible background for such a desire; the idea that "girls just want to have kids" does not. I'm sure, by the way, that Bujold intends no such implication in her work. But leaving baby-lust unexamined in a future society does inevitably raise the question for readers educated about overpopulation and women's rights. "Baby lust" is a phrase borrowed from a woman of my acquaintance who only gave up her insistence of having at least one child of her own when she was diagnosed with CFS and realized the impracticality of this desire in her specific case. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:23:44 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Birth Control Books SMCharnas suggests that >the "wanting vast #'s of children" is largely an historical >artifact born (gg) of the necessity, until recently, to raise big >families Large families (pre mid-C19th) were largely not a matter of choice, though there is fairly strong evidence that, in certain cultures--C18th France in particular--family sizes were being restricted for economic reasons (across the board, class-wise, so that inheritances would not be split up). (France from the C18th is a fascinating example of official and societal pro-natalism, while individual couples were in fact choosing to have very small families). The current situation of women delaying having children/having small families, etc, is also to a large extent economics-driven. On the 'naturalness' of motherhood I recommend V Fildes 'Breasts Bottles and Babies' (about breast-feeding, use of wet-nurses, bottle-feeding etc, over many centuries and how little the modern model of biological mother-child bonding is 'natural' in the sense of always having been the case), and A Dally's 'Inventing Motherhood'. Having said this, my own sense about this is that (speaking from work done as an historian of sexuality) having found that sexual behaviour is to some extent, but not entirely, affected by wider social/cultural factors (e.g. the persistence of certain kinds of sexual behaviour from premarital sex to homosexuality, in societies in which they are not approved and often severely penalised), I'd argue that the same is probably true for the parental, esp, maternal 'instinct'. One thing I found odd in Mitchison's 'Solution Three' when reflecting on it recently, was that she assumed (possibly as part of the 'thought experiment' she was making) that by promoting same-sex love as society's ideal desires for parenthood would vanish except among the small remaining group of recalcitrant heterosexuals. This may be because she wrote it around the 70s which probably preceded any wide publicity re lesbian self-insemination? I suspect that (just as levels of sexual drive vary from individual to individual, but are influenced in various ways by social/cultural context) maternal/parental desires vary widely. As with sex, there's a certain amount of sleepwalking conformity to societal expectations, but this is never (I hazard) absolute, for reasons to do with individual biology/psychology. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:33:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Dowling Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In a message dated 08/07/97 20:50:56, you write: << I'm Farah Mendlesohn, Farah, hi! I remember you well from Glasgow-con, now these many years ago. Are you coming to WFC in London this fall? I'll be there! >> What is WFC, and where and when is it in London, and does any one know of any London based groups or courses that relate to the topic of this list- i'm feeling the urge to statrt talking real time to people- there's alot to catch up on. And I introduced my self to the list some time ago- I'm still here, still learning, still lurking. janet ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:33:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Dowling Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In a message dated 08/07/97 21:31:02, you write: << Having spent 35 years of my life consorting with SF people, and a smaller, but still significant part of my life hanging out with feminists, without ever hearing the name of Margaret Cavendish (1623-1673) invoked, I think that it's amazing that the authors of two consecutive, but unrelated posts, Anastasia and Nalo, have mentioned her. I did part of my dissertation on her fantasy poetry. >> So while I am still learning can someone tell me who she is, and where I can find out more about her janet (seemingly I am being motivated to delurk again) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:33:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Dowling Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In a message dated 08/07/97 21:32:17, you write: << On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, David Silver wrote: > Then one day she got seriously ill and spent three weeks in the hospital. > When she got home I initiated our litany, "What are you going to do when > you grow up?" Her reply was "I'm going to be a nurse." I asked her why and > she said "Men are doctors and girls are nurses", which is what she had > observed in the hospital. I immediately scoured Toronto for a female > pediatrician and spent the next fifteen years encouraging her to pursue her > own interests without regard to society's, or my expectations. She is > entering law school this coming fall. >> At school it was always my intention to become an astrophysicist. I had no doubt about it. I read all sorts of science fiction and wrote my own stories, and i took my A levels with a view to going to university to do Astrophysics. The physics master didn't belive in women doing physics. He made fun of us, derided us, and encouraged the boys in the class to exclude the girls from the physics projects. He told the girls that we were all going to fail our physics A levels. The others failed, or got an E (the lowest pass) I scraped a D and took great pleasure in waving the grade in front of his face. But my confidence was shattered, and when I went to university I did maths and psychology, and eventuall ended up in psychiatric social work, which is where I have been for the last 20 years. The irony was that my boyfriend in univesity did physics, and he got through his course because I was helping him with his maths. Any way the point of this posting, is that women need to provide good strong role models, and even in conversation with children remind them that the "man with the van" could equally be a woman. And it is distressing when supposedly strong women in science fiction roles (like Janeway) revert to stereo type when under stress. I am sure that there are better coping mechanisms. janet (continuing to be motivated to delurk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:38:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Although it's exciting that a woman/women are invloved in the Mars expedition, I also think that it's important to look critically at the expedition istelf, and at space "exploration" in general. To me, it is very much a problem that billions of dollars are being spent on this, while at the same time, there are more & more people living out in the streets, education & arts funding are being cut, healthcare too expensive for large numbers of people, etc. And I'm only talking about the U.S. It is ironic that Donna Shirley named Sojurner for "a woman". The woman was Sojurner Truth, who fought for the rights of an oppressed people, the very same people who are now suffering because of the way govenment spending is allocated. To me, feminism is about equality for all people, not just for a few privileged women who get ahead in a formerly "male" profession. For example, I don't think it was a giant step for feminism (or humanity) when Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister of the UK. I've noticed that many people on this list cite the work of Octavia Butler and Samuel Delaney; it seems like those writers have a very critical take on issues of class and race that is integrated into their SF work. What do other people think? Kym Ragusa >Tonight's NBC evening news had a feature in their "American Spirit" series >on Donna Shirley, the Program Manager for the Pathfinder mission. Inter >alia, she noted that it was she who named Sojourner for a woman; she also >says she's been interested in getting to Mars one way or another all her >life. > >Shirley is by no means the only woman involved at high levels at JPL, though >it does seem that a lot of the press conferences are done by guys there. >Shirley at JPL. > > >Tess ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:06:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: pyork@LOCALNET.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go >down? (g) Who's laughing? It will split into two fields, "engineering" dominated by women, and a more specialized field requiring an extra de- gree to do the same things, called "Brilliantly Designing Modern, Cool, and Expensive Ways To Do Things" which will be dominated by males whose pay will be approx. 25% more than that of mere "engineers". See "Bookkeeping" vs. "Accountant". Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:01:30 -0700 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: Mars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------73155AC05BF0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------73155AC05BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SMCharnas wrote: > > At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: > > >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go > >down? (g) > > Who's laughing? It will split into two fields, "engineering" > dominated by women, and a more specialized field requiring an extra de- > gree to do the same things, called "Brilliantly Designing Modern, Cool, > and Expensive Ways To Do Things" which will be dominated by males whose > pay will be approx. 25% more than that of mere "engineers". See > "Bookkeeping" vs. "Accountant". > > Suzy This was sent to me a few months ago-- a tribute to "the world's first computer programmers," six women, who were called-- CLERKS!!!! Yes, folks, these highly trained trailblazers were not even granted professional status. (Kind of like Hollywood calling many of the first script-writers "script girls", & treating them like gofers.) --------------73155AC05BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="ENIAC.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ENIAC.TXT" FYI >---------- >From: Keith Bostic >Sent: Friday, May 9, 1997 12:05 PM >To: /dev/null@mongoose.bostic.com >Subject: First came ENIAC > >Forwarded-by: Kevin Dunlap > >First came ENIAC > >Women recall their work as programmers on world's first computer 50 years >ago > >By Doug Margeson Eastside Journal Reporter > >REDMOND -- Jean Bartik and Kay Mauchly-Antonelli don't like to be called >pioneers, even if that's what they were. > >"I was an important part of the computer industry, but only one part," >Bartik said. "Everything in science is built on something else." > >Bartik is being modest, according to people at Microsoft. They brought >her and Mauchly-Antonelli to Redmond this week to discuss their work 50 >years ago on Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer -- ENIAC to >those who worked with it -- a boxcar-sized, enormously complicated machine >that, according to industry historians, was the first electronic >general-purpose computer. > >That makes Bartik and Mauchly-Antonelli the world's first programmers, >although they didn't realize it at the time and don't like to make a big >deal out of it. Both are retired. Mauchly-Antonelli lives in Ambler, Pa. >Bartik lives in Pennsauken, N.J. > >In 1945, Bartik had just graduated with a math degree from Northwest >Missouri State College and was looking for a job. When the federal >government recruited her as a member of a team trying to figure how to >tell ENIAC to compute artillery trajectories, she simply thought it >sounded like an interesting way to make a living. > >"I had always considered mathematics as fun, like solving puzzles, more >of a game than a matter of serious study," she said. > >The importance of ENIAC can't be overstated. The fact it was built at all >is a monument to American research and engineering and the fact it worked >as well as it did a testament to the ingenuity of those who operated it, >according to W. Barkely Fritz, who wrote a history of the ENIAC project. > >More than anything else, it was needed. Precision bombing and =0C artillery >were necessary to win the war and with new guns, planes, bombs and >conditions popping up seemingly every day, mathematicians were >hard-pressed to turn out accurate tables. > >University of Pennsylvania engineers developed ENIAC to help. Measuring >100 feet long by 10 feet wide and with more than 17,000 vacuum tubes, it >required huge amounts of energy just to run the air conditioners that kept >it from melting. > >It was anything but user-friendly. Its programming, for example, was done >with an elaborate system of switches, dials and a plug-in board similar >to old-fashioned telephone switching boards. > >But it worked, doing in 20 seconds calculations that before took as long >as 40 hours. That allowed programmers to calculate the position of an >artillery shell for every tenth of a second of its flight, all the while >factoring in air density, barrel wear and scores of other variables. The >result was unparalleled accuracy, Mauchly-Antonelli said. > >Figuring out how to make it work was a challenge. The key was numerical >integration, a rare math specialty Mauchly-Antonelli had not studied in >her undergraduate days at Chestnut Hill College in Philadelphia. When she >arrived at ENIAC offices, she was given a textbook and told to figure it >out. Then she was put to work computing. > >While it may have been primitive compared to today's computers, ENIAC and >the jobs it was asked to do were anything but unsophisticated, >Mauchly-Antonelli said. > >Working on it was one of the most exciting experiences of their lives, >the women agreed. > >No one thought computers would ever be small enough or cheap enough for >the average person to use. The point-contact transistor was invented in >1948 and was superseded by the junction transistor in 1951. > >However, it wasn't until the development of the semiconductor integrated >circuit in 1957 that the true potential of computers began to be >recognized. Now, ENIAC's functions can be done on a one- centimeter by >one-centimeter chip. > >"No, we never imagined that, "Mauchly-Antonelli said. "But we >dreamed, and there's more dreaming to be done. Look how far we've come in =0C >only 50 years." > >=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D >Forwarded-by: chuck@Yerkes.com >Forwarded-by: David HM Spector > >Women Proto-programmers Get Their Just Reward > -- by Janelle Brown = > >5:04am 8.May.97.PDT Fifty years after they programmed the unwieldy ENIAC >computer, the world's first programmers are stepping into the public eye, >and - surprise - they are women. Long overlooked in the annals of >computer history, the six women will finally receive group recognition >for their work at next month's Women in Technology conference. > >The women - Kay Mauchley Antonelli, Jean Bartik, Betty Holberton (also >known for her work with Cobol), Marlyn Meltzer, Frances Spence, and Ruth >Teitelbaum - will receive the Hall of Fame award from the Women in >Technology International, an association that promotes the value of women >in the industry. > >The ENIAC, the world's first computer, was invented to calculate >ballistics trajectories during World War II - a task that until then had >been done by hand by a group of 80 female mathematicians. The six women >who were chosen to make the ENIAC work toiled six-day weeks during the >war, inventing the field of programming as they worked. But although they >were skilled mathematicians and logicians, the women were classified as >"sub-professionals" presumably due to their gender and as a cost-saving >device, and never got the credit due to them for their groundbreaking >work. > >"Somebody else stood up and took credit at the time, and no one looked >back," explains Anna van Raaphorst-Johnson, a director of WITI. "It's a >typical problem in a male-dominated industry. And there's still a lot of >frustration with men taking credit for women's ideas - it doesn't seem to >have changed much over the last 50 years." > >But although the women had been categorized as "clerks," they were >rediscovered by a Harvard student named Kathryn Kleiman in 1986, during >her research for a paper on women in computing. When the 50th anniversary >of the ENIAC computer rolled around last year, Kleiman - now an Internet >lawyer at Fletcher, Heald & Hildreth - decided that it was time to get >the women the recognition they deserved. > >"I called and asked what they were doing to honor the ENIAC programmers,= =0C >and they said, 'Who?'" says Kleiman. > >Although two women were given recognition at the conference, the rest >weren't even invited to the reception. But Kleiman's ongoing quest to >reveal the forgotten story of the six women has gotten the ball rolling >on public awareness: A Wall Street Journal article was written about the >women last year, and has become a minor Net meme. California >Congresswoman Anna Eshoo has been working to name a day in honor of the >ENIAC programmers, although her efforts were delayed when Congress stopped >allowing commemorative days. And Kleiman herself is coordinating a >broadcast-quality oral history with the ENIAC women, which will eventually >be turned into a documentary. > >The women's pioneering role in the industry, Kleiman and WITI believe, >will serve as inspiration for girls, to help them avoid the "math is for >boys" mentality, as well as to women in the programming industry. And so >far, their efforts seem to working: The ENIAC women are currently in >Seattle, where they were invited to give a lecture at Microsoft to its >Hoppers group of women programmers. > >Offers Kleiman, "I hope it provides wonderful role models so that girls >and women know that they have as much of a right to go into the computer >industry as men do." > --------------73155AC05BF0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:43:33 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: SMCharnas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SMCharnas wrote: > > At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: > > >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go > >down? (g) > > Who's laughing? It will split into two fields, "engineering" > dominated by women, and a more specialized field requiring an extra de- > gree to do the same things, called "Brilliantly Designing Modern, Cool, > and Expensive Ways To Do Things" which will be dominated by males whose > pay will be approx. 25% more than that of mere "engineers". See > "Bookkeeping" vs. "Accountant". > > Suzy Ah! Excellent point. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: <970713103330_-558633939@emout16.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Janet Dowling wrote: > In a message dated 08/07/97 21:31:02, you write: > > << > Having spent 35 years of my life consorting with SF people, and a > smaller, but still significant part of my life hanging out with > feminists, without ever hearing the name of Margaret Cavendish > (1623-1673) invoked, I think that it's amazing that the authors of two > consecutive, but unrelated posts, Anastasia and Nalo, have mentioned her. I > did part of my dissertation on her fantasy poetry. > >> > So while I am still learning can someone tell me who she is, and where I can > find out more about her > > janet > > (seemingly I am being motivated to delurk again) > Margaret Cavendish, the Duchess of Newscastle, was the wife of one of the most powerful men in England at the time of the Revolution that cost Charles I his head and, since her husband was one of the relatively few noblemen who sided with the Puritans, he and she did quite nicely during the Cromwellian years. Like most women at that time, Cavendish had little formal education. Brilliant and eccentric, she read widely, but with very little structure or plan. She wrote an enormous amount in a wide number of genres, but is best remembered for her poetry and plays. Her best poems, IMO, imitated the fairy poetry of Shakespeare and Herrick, but took tinyness to an amazing extreme. Having done some experimentation with early microscopes (some of the greatest scientists of the day spent extended periods of time in her home, Christian Huygens for example) she envisioned fairies of microscopic size in amazing detail. Cavendish's recent rediscovery, however, is probably due more to her plays, some of which (if I'm remembering this accurately) were decidedly science-fictional and feminist in tone. I remember one, the title escapes me, in which an army of women comes to the rescue of a defeated army of men. Cavendish is not really an important figure within the context of traditional history. What she is, though, is a woman who clearly had the brilliance to have been important if she'd been given the chance. Virginia Wolf wrote an interesting essay on her. It's in one of the Common Readers, I think. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:42:56 +0930 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Brigid Venables." <9309629n@MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: SMCharnas In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: > > >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go > >down? (g) > It happened in the field of librarianship! We've had to re-invent ourselves as "information managers" (or information scientists) lest we be thought of as overpaid clerks. Brigid Venables. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Prof. Levy, Reviewing your comments on Margaret Cavendish, I'd just like to quibble! The Duke and Duchess of Newcastle did not support the Puritains, nor did they do nicely in the civil war. Margeret Cavendish met her husband while she was one of Henrietta Maria's Ladies in Waiting in the government in exile in France. While the Duke did exit the field during a crucial battle (mainly because he was annoyed at the irresponsible actions of Prince Rupert), this does not make him a puritian supporter! They were both royalists to the core. The Duchess WAS sent during the civil war to petition the puritians for the return of a part of their (confiscated) wealth, but failed abjectly.Interestingly as women were not considered to be subjects, they were not held responsible for their husband's actions, this gave them some leyway in demanding part of the estates back.. After the Restoration, much of the Newcastle estate was returned to the family (they had considerable influence) but both of them remained bitter against the King because they didn't get it all back (although they did better than most). "The Blazing World" is full of Margaret's complaints about how their loyal support during the war (they donated most of their remaining wealth to the King's cause) was unrewarded. But they still didn't support the Puritians! Most of the current critical interest is in Cavendish's utopianism and her position as an early scientific philosopher, although there is some work on her closet drama and a play called the "Convent of Pleasure", where a bunch of men enter an all female convent and *sigh* it disbands as they all fall in love and marry. The single best article (in my view) about Cavendish is by Catherine Gallager in the journal _Genders_ in 1988, where she interrogates Cavendish subjectivity as a woman and an unabashed aristocrat. Cavendish said something like "As I can not be Henry the V, I can at least be Margaret the First!". And so she was. That said, I'm very intersted in your dissertation work on Cavendish, particularly her poetry as very little has been written about it. Could I possibly have the date of your diss. so I can find it and possibly get it out on interlibrary loan? Yours quibblingly, Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Margaret Cavendish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > Dear Prof. Levy, > > Reviewing your comments on Margaret Cavendish, I'd just like to > quibble! The Duke and Duchess of Newcastle did not support the Puritains, > nor did they do nicely in the civil war. Dear Tanya, Quibbles are certainly acceptable and even wholesale disagreement when you've obviously got a much more secure hold on the facts than I do, my ideas about Cavendish being based on work done back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, mostly before the current serious interest in her work. My dissertation is entitled The Transformations of Oberon: The Uwe of Fairies in Seventeenth-Century Literature. The abstract appears in Dissertation Abstracts International Vol 43, No. 1, 1982. The order number is DA82 14002P. It was from the U of Minnesota. If you find it, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:08:04 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Re: Letting students listen in, was Re: So who is on this list? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kate Bolin wrote: > It's almost as if feminist science fiction writers are continuing the > stereotype of technology being a male field by making their works as > technologically incapable. > > Maybe it's just what I've seen. Our Center's library is notorious for > rarely adding new books... > kate Bolin > Who's just looking for some good feminist cyberpunk > Pat Cadigan is excellent - "Fools", "Mindplayers", "Synners", I understand she's got a new one out soon "Bunraktu" or some name like that. SC "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:47:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: feminist cyberpunk and the awful Tulane University Library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I started hunting. And I'm beginning to realize that the Howard Tilton Memorial Library of Tulane University, New Orleans, Louisiana is HOPELESSLY out of date. I found one book on the list of possible authors. Joan Slonczewski. I don't remember the name of the book off the top of my head (since I just write down the call number). One book. The library's great for finding old books (I found a 1928 edition of "The Golden Bough"), but anything published after 1990 that wasn't published in the South....forget it. As for just going to a bookstore and purchasing books....I am a college student, who is going through her first summer away from home. In other words, I am terribly broke. The only way I get new books is if I take books that I get as gifts and exchange them. Kate Bolin who might just have to buckle down and get a New Orleans public library card ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A keyboard may be a better equalizer than a Glock .45, but I still prefer the .45" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:21:39 -0400 Reply-To: Susan Marie Groppi Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Groppi Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk and the awful Tulane University Library In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kate Bolin wrote: > As for just going to a bookstore and purchasing books....I am a college > student, who is going through her first summer away from home. In other > words, I am terribly broke. The only way I get new books is if I take > books that I get as gifts and exchange them. Third summer away from home, and not substantially less poor over here. :) Here's something that won't really help you in the short term, but I feel fairly strongly about nonetheless--does Tulane have a science fiction association? Here at Harvard, our SF association is about ten years old, very active, and recieving almost no support from the college. But we've managed to assemble a fairly kick-ass science fiction library, primarily off of donations. It's the kind of thing that starts off slowly--at first it lived in the co-chair's dorm room in three boxes, and then we begged office space (in the form of a former storage closet) from one of the Houses (dorms) and somehow got bookshelves with it. It's been a few years, but with a collection built almost entirely from graduating senior's cast-offs, we're not doing too badly. In fact, we got a donation of over 1100 books last summer from some complete stranger, more than doubling the size of our collection and giving us, for the first time, some of the books that people don't usually want to get rid of. -- Susan groppi@hcs.harvard.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i found god in myself and i loved her i loved her fiercely -- n.shange ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970711084339.006b8554@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:43 7/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > >>On other birth control books: Has somebody already suggested >>'Barrayar' by Bujold? > >>Naismith marries somebody from the militaristic, patriarchal >>Barrayar and moves there. They want a child immediately. It is >>extensively discussed how strange an in vivo pregnancy feels for >>Naismith. Furthermore, briefly a fantasy of her is described to get >>as many children as possible, now that there are no restrictions. One >>gets the impression that Bujold thinks that without outer pressure >>(no money or space restrictions) women like to get children by the >>dozen. > >My impression of Bujold is that her characters are individuals and don't >represent large classes or categories. Part of the point of the Miles >stories is that they center on a very unusual individual. Exactly. Also, since Cordelia came from a planet where no one CAN have many children, she's naturally attracted to the idea. (Forbidden things look good from a distance, right?) If she had come from a kind of outer space Romania where large families were mandatory, she'd have approached it differently. > >Of course some women would want large numbers of children (without >estimating how many women that "some" is!). And certainly, many more would >think about it a little, or fantasize about it some. > > >Neil > Another point: Bujold usually queries "what would be the most difficult thing for this character to cope with?" And then provides it. For Cordelia, having only one child would be difficult. She has to face that. For Piotr, having a deformed grandchild is tragic. He has to face that. And a third point: some knee-jerk feminist students in my SF class object violently to Cordelia's "selling out" by marrying and having a family. They don't seem to realize that she hasn't CHANGED, just taken on a different (and important and difficult) job. Even her triumph in Barrayar doesn't satisfy them. I find this hard to believe, but that's the way they argue. How do you feel about that? Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:10:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk and the awful Tulane University Library Comments: To: Susan Marie Groppi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Susan, unfortunately, Tulane does not have a science fiction club. I have heard about the one at Harvard (having a friend there), and I am insanely jealous. I guess I should have known better than to go to Tulane "I've gotten my stomach pumped for alcohol poisoning four times already, and I'm still a freshman!" University. kate ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A keyboard may be a better equalizer than a Glock .45, but I still prefer the .45" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:50:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Brigid Venables. wrote: > > At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: > > > > >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go > > >down? (g) > > > It happened in the field of librarianship! We've had to re-invent > ourselves as "information managers" (or information scientists) lest we > be thought of as overpaid clerks. > Ain't that the truth. Boy did I mistake getting an M.A. in library science. Taco Bell managers make more than I do. My husband, who doesn't even have a Bachelor's degree, makes more than I do. I fact, I think everyone makes more than I do. We are always thought of as clerks. The University here puts their library job listings (requiring a Masters degree) under the Secretarial heading and not under the Professional heading. I am so disgusted with it all. It seems we haven't come that long of a ways... My grandmother, a long time ago, worked for the Historical Society here as a Librarian. When she left they hired a man in her position for about twice what she made. My grandmother ran into her old boss some time after this and he apologized to her for paying her such a low salary (because she is a woman). He said she did a heck of a lot better job than this man does. Lori> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:03:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:38 7/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >Although it's exciting that a woman/women are invloved in the Mars >expedition, I also think that it's important to look critically at the >expedition istelf, and at space "exploration" in general. To me, it is very >much a problem that billions of dollars are being spent on this, while at >the same time, there are more & more people living out in the streets, >education & arts funding are being cut, healthcare too expensive for large >numbers of people, etc. And I'm only talking about the U.S. Very true. But where do you think all those billions of dollars get spent? Some, at least, go to salaries -- keeping people employed -- (including the janitors who clean the buildings and the truckers who bring in the raw materials). Those salaries generally go to food and clothing and education for the children, etc. Certainly, big business keeps a lot of the money (which should go in part to the stockholders, many of whom are NOT the few enormously wealthy); but none of it leaves the earth. When the space program got gutted, years ago, lots of highly trained engineers were looking for jobs and their families were in trouble. (I worked in a second-hand bread shop. These men were begging for jobs as driver-salesmen on bread routes; their wives were shopping with food stamps.) Yes, the better their training, the sooner they did get appropriate jobs; but still, they were taking jobs that less-well trained people could (should?) have had. If some money were spent on proper treatment facilities for the mentally ill (which covers quite a few of those homeless on the streets, honestly -- thank Ronald Reagan), and more spent on making real job opportunities available to many teens who can't see any good future, I would be first to applaud. But cutting the space program won't do it. That money won't go to 'public welfare' (which largely hits anything that hurts the prosperous, rather than the kind of grass-roots stuff that really helps the people who need it). I'm for funding programs started by the people who live in the middle of the crisis and know what's going on. It doesn't take a great deal of money (on a government scale, that is -- a few millions here and there) if the money gets to the people who run the show rather than to a bureaucracy. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry about that. Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:41:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >One thing I found odd in Mitchison's 'Solution Three' >when reflecting on it recently, was that she assumed (possibly as part of the >'thought experiment' she was making) that by promoting same-sex love as >society's ideal desires for parenthood would vanish except among the small >remaining group of recalcitrant heterosexuals. Odd, indeed! Considering how many homosexual couples I know are either procreating or wishing they could! :-D Personally, my decision not to have more children (I have one Incredible Son) is purely an economical one. If I won the lottery, I'd pop out at least a dozen! No shit. I've always wanted a large family, largely (haha), I believe, because of the horrificly abusive nightmarish violent childhood I had. One of the (many) things that got me through it was fantasizing about the kind of parent _I_ was going to be, and, which, I can say, most happily, I now am. Giving my son all the love and attention and fun and nurturing I never got is the Single Most Healing Experience of my entire life! I feel that giving him the childhood he's getting balances out my own experience somehow. As I am now 35 (today actually!), I don't foresee that I'll have any more biological children (technically, I'm bisexual, and I have serious doubts about finding a man who could meet all my needs, making the prospect of having another bio-child that much more remote). However, I _do_ see myself as a foster mom when I hit 50 or so (after I've had _my_ turn backpacking through Europe in my 40s, something I missed out on having a baby so young....). Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the decision to have more children goes beyond social, cultural and economic reasons and encompasses the deeply personal. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:49:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970714130743.142789ba@academic.truman.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Very true. But where do you think all those billions of dollars get spent? >Some, at least, go to salaries -- keeping people employed -- (including >the janitors who clean the buildings and the truckers who bring in the >raw materials). Those salaries generally go to food and clothing and >education for the children, etc. Certainly, big business keeps a lot of >the money (which should go in part to the stockholders, many of whom are >NOT the few enormously wealthy); but none of it leaves the earth. > >When the space program got gutted, years ago, lots of highly trained >engineers were looking for jobs and their families were in trouble. >(I worked in a second-hand bread shop. These men were begging for jobs >as driver-salesmen on bread routes; their wives were shopping with >food stamps.) Yes, the better their training, the sooner they did get >appropriate jobs; but still, they were taking jobs that less-well >trained people could (should?) have had. > >If some money were spent on proper treatment facilities for the >mentally ill (which covers quite a few of those homeless on the >streets, honestly -- thank Ronald Reagan), and more spent on making >real job opportunities available to many teens who can't see any >good future, I would be first to applaud. But cutting the space >program won't do it. That money won't go to 'public welfare' (which >largely hits anything that hurts the prosperous, rather than the >kind of grass-roots stuff that really helps the people who need it). > >I'm for funding programs started by the people who live in the >middle of the crisis and know what's going on. It doesn't take a >great deal of money (on a government scale, that is -- a few >millions here and there) if the money gets to the people who >run the show rather than to a bureaucracy. > >Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry about that. > >Martha Bartter >Truman State University Martha, No need to apologize. Once in a while, a person says stuff others are thinking but don't know how to express adequately for lack of information. You've done just that, so thanks. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Queer theory In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Joel, I've not before this asked to have it defined, but at a quick glance, your snapshot definition works for me. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:39:59 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Although it's exciting that a woman/women are invloved in the Mars >expedition, I also think that it's important to look critically at the >expedition istelf, and at space "exploration" in general. To me, it is very >much a problem that billions of dollars are being spent on this, while at >the same time, there are more & more people living out in the streets, >education & arts funding are being cut, healthcare too expensive for large >numbers of people, etc. I completely agree! How much is this expedition costing? I heard a figure of $261 million. YOWZA! How many people would that feed, clothe and house? By my calculations, that would take care of about 9000 people here in the U.S. Makes me wanna go hmmmm....... > To me, feminism is about equality for all people, not just for a >few privileged women who get ahead in a formerly "male" profession. For >example, I don't think it was a giant step for feminism (or humanity) when >Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister of the UK. However, I disagree with you here. Feminism is most definitely _not_ about equality for all people, not that that isn't a perfectly wonderful goal! Feminism is about equality for women, so, as abhorrent as a character such as Thatcher is, it's still progress for womankind! (sigh) I realize it's difficult to acknowledge that women are as capable of all the -isms as any man, but that's the way it is! Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:15:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: "Lori A. Campbell" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lori A. Campbell wrote: >Ain't that the truth. Boy did I mistake getting an M.A. in library >science. Taco Bell managers make more than I do. My husband, who >doesn't even have a Bachelor's degree, makes more than I do. I fact, I >think everyone makes more than I do. We are always thought of as >clerks. The University here puts their library job listings (requiring a >Masters degree) under the Secretarial heading and not under the >Professional heading. I am so disgusted with it all. It seems we >haven't come that long of a ways... >My grandmother, a long time ago, worked for the Historical Society here >as a Librarian. When she left they hired a man in her position for >about twice what she made. My grandmother ran into her old boss some >time after this and he apologized to her for paying her such a low >salary (because she is a woman). He said she did a heck of a lot better >job than this man does. >Lori> Yes, librarians and library workers are still woefully underpaid, no matter what they call themselves. I just got back from the ALA convention in San Francisco-- where I had the opportunity to hang out with our webmistress Laura (another story)--this was the first ALA convention I've been to since graduating library school in 1990. Surprise, I'm not technically a librarian any more. I'm a webmaster/computer specialist for an association that didn't hire me for my librarian background, but is finding that experience helpful enough to send me to ALA. I jumped from my profession because the salaries didn't pay enough to live on, not to mention getting ahead. I was never able to attend ALA when I worked in academic libraries, in a series of acting, contractual, and para-professional jobs. Usually it was because library departments had limited travel funds to spread around and these scacre funds would continuously be awarded to those with seniority. Librarians aren't paid shit and it's because the rest of the world continues to look at it as a "female profession." Let's compare some demographics. My association puts on a big annual scientific meeting. The attendees are, for the most part, wealthy white middle age scientists whose trips are funded by their institution. My observations of ALA tell me that its attendees are mostly women (the gender ratio is better than the science meeting) and even though they are middle class, they still have to double up in hotel rooms and skimp on their trips. I guess I belabor the obvious, but that is my 2 cents. What did folks think of Jodie Foster's character in "Contact?" Chuck0 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:19:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Williams Subject: Contact movie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I saw the movie Contact recently and really enjoyed it: beautiful use of the Very Large Array, good arguments for science against religion, nice "awe of the universe." Am also reading "Hyperspace" so I learned what a wormhole might really be and why scientists think the universe might be ten-dimensional. Now Jodie Foster is not Octavia Butler... and the movie WAS made by the same guy who manipulated theatregoers with Forrest Gump ... and it certainly was scheduled right, coming alongside the Mars pictures... but what do folks around FEMINISTSF think of the movie? kate --- Kate Williams University of Toledo Community and Technical College Project Coordinator, Toledo Technology Academy kwillia8@uoft02.utoledo.edu til late July: (419) 531-8340 x205, fax (419) 531-8412 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:22:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: question about le guin & taoism for a student Comments: To: Sasha Furlani , feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm forwarding this on behalf of a student. Please be certain that responses go to her, not just the list. Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:45:19 -0500 From: UIC Web Form Mailer Reply-To: Fem-SFFU maintenance listserve To: FEMSFWEB@listserv.uic.edu Subject: femsf feedback Mon Jul 14 13:45:19 CDT 1997 Name: Sasha Furlani Email: sfurlani@ivory.trentu.ca I am a: researcher I found this page by looking for: science fiction My comment concerns: question OK to post on bulletin board: Please respond as soon as possible My comments are: Hi! This really isn't a reference question. I'm a student at Trent U. in Canada and I'm doing an essay on the Dispossessed and Taoism but I'm having trouble finding any info on Le Guin and Taoism, even though I know that she at least uses it to some extent. If you have any info or suggestions could you please email them to me ASAP. Your help is greatly appreciated. P.S.- I've checked most of the pages dealing with Le Guin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:28:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > >Very true. But where do you think all those billions of dollars get spent? > >Some, at least, go to salaries -- keeping people employed -- (including > >the janitors who clean the buildings and the truckers who bring in the > >raw materials). Those salaries generally go to food and clothing and > >education for the children, etc. Certainly, big business keeps a lot of > >the money (which should go in part to the stockholders, many of whom are > >NOT the few enormously wealthy); but none of it leaves the earth. > > > >Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry about that. > > > >Martha Bartter > >Truman State University > > Martha, > No need to apologize. Once in a while, a person says stuff others > are thinking but don't know how to express adequately for lack of > information. You've done just that, so thanks. > > -Sean > I just finished reading a book called Firestar by Michael (oh I forget his last name, anyone?), which certainly agrees with the argument you made, and more, in favour of investment is space exploration in a near future America. While I disagree somewhat I enjoyed the book and its take, though one-sided, on the advantages, social/political/educational/ and economic of pursuing space. The fact is that not all the money spent on the project ends up in the hands of workers, and not even the same proportion as if the money was spent in other industries. The space industry is expensive-materials heavy, and labour costs create fewer high-paying jobs, which are traditional 'good jobs' in any event, high-tech/education science jobs which overwhelmingly go to men who are already most able to survive in the modern economy. One other note about Firestar, the main character is a woman, and I was impressed that the male author managed to create a very complex authentic feeling woman character, something I find too few male authors do. robin. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: horror/fantasy/sci-fi course Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, I'm right now teaching an introductory course in fiction focusing on science fiction, fantasy, and horror. I organized the course in such a way that we would be reading at least one woman writer for each genre (and one male writer for fantasy and horror). The women writers I taught were Poppy Z. Brite (_Drawing Blood_), Elizabeth Moon (_Sheepfarmer's Daughter_) and Joan D. Vinge (_Snow Queen_). Although the course didn't focus explicitly on gender,we did have discussions on how the women writers' approaches to these genres were different from the male writers. Interestingly enough, except for one of the women writers, the response has been mostly positive. The only one who I got a mixed response on was Poppy Z. Brite. And that had more to do with the students having problems with some very explicit gay love scenes. My response was to take that to another level and ask them if the vividness of Brite's language in describing the love-making scenes was what really disturbed them. Or did it have to do with the fact that this was gay sex that was being so vividly represented. Most of them denied that the latter was the problem. But I had a feeling that this was what really bothered them. Have any of you has taught science fiction, fantasy or horror fiction of a "transgressive" nature before? What was the response you got from your students? I look forward to reading your responses. Sincerely, Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:53:16 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: An Exchange of Hostages Has there been any discussion of this on the list? (I did quickly check the archives and there doesn't seem to have been). I found this a peculiar and rather spooky work. I was not so much bothered by the much-cited institutionalised torture in the imagined world (though this did seem a bit too deliberately set up to over-determine the protagonist's predicament) and the detailed torture scenes. I don't argue that women shouldn't write about male central figures. But it would be nice to have a bit of perspective on issues around masculinity, gender, power, authority, etc, if they do. What I found most creepy about this work is that the protagonist is an aristocratic superman. Through some folly of youth (a sexual escapade about which little is recounted) he is drafted into training to work as an interrogator in a highly formalised inquisitorial system of justice. He is a brilliant and caring doctor, a superb scientist, wonderful to his servants and making himself beloved by them. It's also implied that he's a rather competent man with the ladies... It turns out, much to his own horror/surprise, that he's sexually aroused by torturing people. No rationale for this is given (e.g.childhood experiences, kind of society he grew up in, etc). It's Just One of Those Things. (As a character in a situation he lacks entirely the subtletly and ambiguity of the sadist/doctor in Elizabeth Lynn's 'The Sardonyx Net') His antagonist is a fellow-trainee interrogator, a woman who is positioned as, roughly speaking, upwardly socially mobile, from a very different society and social stratum, who is only even accepted as a trainee through some kind of rather dubious political patronage--neither her status nor her merits would normally entitle her to training for this skilled and responsible task. She has absolutely no redeeming features--she's not even a competent torturer... (Again, compare with a rather similar character from a rather similar background of being brought up in an oppressive police state in Emma Bull's 'Falcon') This work has been much praised and even described as 'Dostoyevskian'. Am I missing something? (I should add that I have left out a lot of what goes on in the book, and there are signs that there will be sequel(s)). Has anyone else read it, and if so, what do they think about it? (To give it its due, it was quite a page-turner, and I don't find so very many of these.) Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries (formerly, Mars -Reply) Comments: To: CMUNSON@AAAS.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_7022847A.F190FCEB" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_7022847A.F190FCEB Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline I'd just like to interject that NOTHING to do with books/ literature pays, in comparison to other sectors' salaries. When I managed a bookstore, my daughter received free hot lunch at school. When I was a textbook editor, she was eligible for reduced price lunches. My first two library director positions were in small libraries, paying considerably less than $20,000/year. And George R.R. Martin told me that even after his first two books were published, and he was in WHO'S WHO, he was on foodstamps. We're not involved with literature for money, we do what we do because it pleasures us to do so. --=_7022847A.F190FCEB Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="HEADER.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="HEADER.TXT" Content-Description: WordPerfect 6.0 /1dQQwQDAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAAAEBAAAAAIAAC0hJDdq1qrv1zVWcaxVJDeMdDjCSWLqFRu9MUom 1qrv5ZpShDRCQenJJnwLYob4citWJbnC+PG5vBOvCamRe0a2NCcqwPxNcKOLX7/rX5QAAwgo6sQm yoWZKV9lNOxm6x6bKu0D+Th+jMB4vDI4CjlmuxenTROORnfiGMVC82Y6xecQIxgb1lFr6f2aIh4b FGYzpZiM/zjPDpJYiPzbXbZtTuXhB2TQgtdtGYfX6zswRPnkcAr39qRS1fl19j67gJZPSF1fy4uD g1MSy0T8YJqd6AhaBOeEnfE7L5Zue11aq8z1w/DK4ZoX11xIEOsxIF0hXBOoSq201fKJJm84nitu G5lXe6JnIFh4NDxl/iiQGkyG1cPdqlusi1J6orVuJQy0cncRDobzbd+LlHtuzZEd3jNrYGjOc1k7 iZUAenC0ea1qREy+5fcjzxQu+4jy5dJk9OIhVQgWi0aaxS/aEph7C3lsMLeIXN1BOAYx7lIJs14L x4Za9YKqxVnOP+gIILlnuyNXpaWneGYiN1THnVlghSmHJ6goCpNBa37kLcVOf8n3r07auQGF25W4 BZKaUxTfEoq7b9ZkVHUOSLbQBAhV8ljW9Df3t08XlPYJ4Jj3x0olGdbRhvHfSEL/zRKZO/0Ftc0C AAcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgCAQAAABAAAABiAgAAAFUBAAAARgAAAHICAAAJJQEAAAAGAAAAuAIAAAsw AgAAACgAAAC+AgAACHcBAAAACgAAAOYCAAAINAEAAAAUAAAA8AIAAAgjfAB4AAECAAABAAAAAQA8 ABAnAAAAAAAAEQkAAABaACMAAAAQLgBSAG8AbQBhAG4AIAAxADAAYwBwAGkAIABSAGUAZwB1AGwA YQByAAAAAAAAAAAAAQACAFgCAQAAAAQAKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEwIAJAChAAAAoQAA AAEAAAABAAEACwAFWLcgAAAAAAAAcABtAAAACPogAN0KEACDAQQAAwACACEQAN3dCwsAAwAABAsA 3fEAAQDxTWFyc2hhgFZhbGFuY2XMV2lzY29uc2lugFJlZ2lvbmFsgExpYnJhcnmAZi90gEJsaW5k gCaAUGh5c2ljYWxseYBIYW5kaWNhcHBlZMw4MTOAV2VzdIBXZWxsc4BTdC7MTWlsd2F1a2VlLIBX SYA1MzIzMy0xNDM2zDxtdmFsYW5AbXBsLm9yZz7MzCJUaGF0gEFsbIBNYXmAUmVhZCLMzE15gG9w aW5pb25zgGFyZYBteYBvd24tLXRoZYBsaWJyYXJ5gHdvdWxkbid0gHdhbnSAdGhlbSHwFQbw8QEB APE= --=_7022847A.F190FCEB-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not suggesting that the space program be dismantled. And while it was horrible that all those engineers got laid off, I'm talking about millions of people who have always been poor, who have never had access to a good education & job training (to fall back on when the jobs do open up), etc. I'm saying no one deserves to be in that situation. It seems like there are enough problems on this planet to deal with before we get further involved in space exploration. In addition to the economic issues we've been discussing, there is also the question of the environment. The planet is under constant attack, for example, by large corporations & the politicians that support them. It disturbs me that the water & air continue to be polluted, the rainforests are being decimated, toxic & nuclear waste threaten many communities ( I was in Eastern Europe during the Chernobyl disaster - it was pretty terrifying), cancer has reached epidemic proporations (especially breast cancer) etc. while we spend billions in space. What are the effects of the space program on the Earth's environment? What are the effects of environmental destruction on our bodies, right here on earth? Finally, what I am afraid of is a continuation of the colonizing mentality and activity that resulted in the theft of land and genocide of the native peoples of the Americas. I saw a news broadcast recently that showed how a company in Southern California is actually selling land on Mars. Who gave them that right? What will humans do once they really get into space if they can't control their arrogance & greed? I may be naive, but I think that these are all feminist issues. I'm not saying that the space program is completely evil - as a child of Star Trek, I think a lot of it is really thrilling. But why can't we be critical at the same time? Kym > >Very true. But where do you think all those billions of dollars get spent? >Some, at least, go to salaries -- keeping people employed -- (including >the janitors who clean the buildings and the truckers who bring in the >raw materials). Those salaries generally go to food and clothing and >education for the children, etc. Certainly, big business keeps a lot of >the money (which should go in part to the stockholders, many of whom are >NOT the few enormously wealthy); but none of it leaves the earth. > > >Martha Bartter >Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:13:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Mars << I completely agree! How much is this expedition costing? I heard a figure of $261 million. YOWZA! How many people would that feed, clothe and house? By my calculations, that would take care of about 9000 people here in the U.S. Makes me wanna go hmmmm....... >> This is a good point...but considering the amount of $$ currently being spent to "defend" the US from countries that no longer exist using weapons that don't even work (about a third of the budget, I believe?), not to mention all the programs that used to exist but have been slashed, I think we can boost the less than 1% of the budget that currently goes to AFDC/food stamps and create/enlarge lots of great programs as well without trashing the space program. How many people could eat for how long off the cost of one B2?? Politically yours -- Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:21:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Contact movie I LOVED IT!!!! I was originally very impressed with how well-written the protagonist was when I first read the novel years ago. I sure wish Sagan had written more fiction, sigh. And of course there were lots of changes from the book--characters rearranged or combined, for instance--but you have to do that when you make a 2-hr movie out of a work that long and complex. I also thought that the movie showed a considerable amount of respect for people who are thoughfully, genuinely religious as opposed to the nuts who want to deny science entirely and/or blow things up. The relationship between Ellie and Palmer illustrated that very well--especially his remarks to the press as he got into the car after the hearings at the end. Sagan and the moviemakers did a great job of pointing out the benefits AND limitations of both science and religion--and ways where they might even complement one another. Not to mention some fascinating and at times downright amusing commentary on human nature. And--doesn't Rob Lowe make one hell of a Ralph Reed? ;-) Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:54:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Contact movie In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970714201932.00761690@uoft02.utoledo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Now Jodie Foster is not Octavia Butler... and the movie WAS made by the same >guy who manipulated theatregoers with Forrest Gump ... and it certainly was >scheduled right, coming alongside the Mars pictures... but what do folks >around FEMINISTSF think of the movie? > >kate Kate, How are you putting Jodie Foster alongside Octavia Butler? What have they to do with each other? Are you thinking feminism-wise? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:30:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jen Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: <970714181150_1894131398@emout13.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like to point out that from what I understand NASA gets less than 1 cent of every tax dollar.... At 06:13 PM 7/14/97 -0400, you wrote: ><< > I completely agree! How much is this expedition costing? I heard a figure > of $261 million. YOWZA! How many people would that feed, clothe and > house? By my calculations, that would take care of about 9000 people here > in the U.S. Makes me wanna go hmmmm....... >>> > >This is a good point...but considering the amount of $$ currently being spent >to "defend" the US from countries that no longer exist using weapons that >don't even work (about a third of the budget, I believe?), not to mention all >the programs that used to exist but have been slashed, I think we can boost >the less than 1% of the budget that currently goes to AFDC/food stamps and >create/enlarge lots of great programs as well without trashing the space >program. How many people could eat for how long off the cost of one B2?? > >Politically yours -- > >Nicole > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:36:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: horror/fantasy/sci-fi course In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Have any of you has taught science fiction, fantasy or horror >fiction of a "transgressive" nature before? What was the response you got >from your students? I look forward to reading your responses. > >Sincerely, > > > > >Erik Tsao Erik, What do you mean by "transgressive"? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:51:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What are the effects of the space program on the >Earth's environment? What are the effects of environmental destruction on >our bodies, right here on earth? Whatever they are, I think it would behoove us to think of this as a minnow compared to big, stank fish like, say, certain heavy industries, the auto industry, the oil industry, stuff like that. If you really want to help the environment, you recycle and encourage others to do the same and if you want to target some big operation and seem to accuse it of having a detrimental effect on Earth's environment, see above paragraph. Another thing to consider is that it's not like the space program's not giving us anything back. There are better medicines, stronger metals that help make safer cages for cars that wouldn't have been possible were we confined to earth. I think we're even learning a lot more about the human body because of space travel and using that knowledge to combat some diseases. I understand your concern, but there may be some answers we'll find in space, or on Mars or wherever which'll help us here. We'd be fools not to explore this option (not to ignore the problems you mention on Earth, but to use the space program as a way to, hopefully, help find solutions). As Jean-Luc Picard once said to a character played by Matt Frewer: "I'm obligated to use every resource I have available." As is he, so are we. There's also an intangible benefit that's important: a sense of hope. Sort of like, "Hey if we can go to Mars, maybe we can do X, too". I saw a news broadcast recently that showed how a >company in Southern California is actually selling land on Mars. Think "scam!" and beware. What will humans do once they really get into space if >they can't control their arrogance & greed? An important question. Answer: infest the cosmos. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:38:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: <970714181150_1894131398@emout13.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >This is a good point...but considering the amount of $$ currently being spent >to "defend" the US from countries that no longer exist using weapons that >don't even work (about a third of the budget, I believe?), not to mention all >the programs that used to exist but have been slashed, I think we can boost >the less than 1% of the budget that currently goes to AFDC/food stamps and >create/enlarge lots of great programs as well without trashing the space >program. How many people could eat for how long off the cost of one B2?? > >Politically yours -- > >Nicole Nicole, :-) -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:41:42 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Contact movie In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970714201932.00761690@uoft02.utoledo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Now Jodie Foster is not Octavia Butler... and the movie WAS made by the same >guy who manipulated theatregoers with Forrest Gump ... and it certainly was >scheduled right, coming alongside the Mars pictures... but what do folks >around FEMINISTSF think of the movie? I think anyone who has ever fantasized about space travel should stop what they're doing this very instant and drag their ass out to a movie theater. I'd pay $7 just for the opening sequence! I caught myself _not breathing_ I was so enamoured with the special effects! I'd quibble about a couple of plot points, but won't do so since not everyone on this list has seen it yet, but.....ohgodIcan'tstopmyself.......I would like to have seen Jodie Foster's character confront Tom Skerritt's character once and for all! I _still_ have lingering resentment over that one! :-) And as for Jodie Foster, she was wonderful (as always); however, when we start dating, I'm gonna get feed that girl for a week! ;-) Laura