"FEMINISTSF LOG9707C" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:04:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As an ex-librarian turned computer support engineer, I think in many cases libra1rians could be thought of as underpaid clerks. On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Brigid Venables. wrote: > > At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: > > > > >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go > > >down? (g) > > > It happened in the field of librarianship! We've had to re-invent > ourselves as "information managers" (or information scientists) lest we > be thought of as overpaid clerks. > > Brigid Venables. > ~ Denise M. Borgen ~ If man is only a little lower ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ than the angels, then the ~ ~ ~ angels should reform ~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:14:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages Lesley, no, in my opinion you're not missing a thing. This book falls into so many cliches it's frightening. Well, actually what's frightening is that so many reviewers believe it is something new. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: James Morrow: Only Begotten Daughter In a message dated 97-07-11 10:28:15 EDT, groppi@HCS.HARVARD.EDU (Susan Marie Groppi) writes: > One of my favorite quotes from the book: > > "Look at us... the all-American family. Who'd ever know it's a hermit, a > bastard, a dyke, and a deity?" One of the reasons I like Morrow is that his work abounds with good quotes. I liked the one above. Also: "...it's time we stopped having lower standards for God than we do for the postal service." Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: James Morrow: Only Begotten Daughter In a message dated 97-07-11 10:22:04 EDT, bernip@ix.netcom.com (Berni Phillips) writes: > I enjoyed _Only Begotten Daughter_, but his > point of having the title character being female seems only to tweak the > noses of those who are so sure Jesus in His second coming will again be > male. I have no idea what Morrow's intent was in having the main character be female. Does it matter? If a female character is in a position that is typically thought of as being somehow the purview of the male, doesn't the work become feminist, even if presenting a feminist viewpoint was not the writer's objective? > OBD has some good stuff in it, like the scene where Julie visits > her half-brother (the big JC) in hell, finding him dispensing water to > the hotly damned, totally unaware that a whole religion has grown up > around Him. I liked that part a lot, too. > Overall, I felt the book fell apart in the middle, as if > Morrow just had this great idea and didn't know what to do once he'd > written the set-up, and never really recovered. I don't agree. I thought the middle was the strongest part, and was disappointed in the climax and denouement. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:39:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In a message dated 97-07-13 07:40:11 EDT, Lesley_Hall@MSN.COM (Lesley Hall) writes: > Large families (pre mid-C19th) were largely not a matter of choice, though > there is fairly strong evidence that, in certain cultures--C18th France in > particular--family sizes were being restricted for economic reasons (across > the board, class-wise, so that inheritances would not be split up). It's my understanding that small families haven't always been a matter of choice, either. (My source for this is an educational "tour" kind of thing I took in Alice Springs a few years ago; since this is not the most reliable of sources, I'd greatly appreciate any corrections.) In times in which women live in semi-starved condition, they often are not fertile. If body weight falls below a certain level. menstruation ceases and the woman will not be able to conceive. (I believe this happens to anorexics.) In the aboriginal group covered in the tour, in the past it had been typical for a woman who married at age 13 (a common age for marriage) and lived to post-menopausal years to have only three or four children. And of course, not all would live to adulthood. On a related note, the birth of twins was considered to be the result of an evil spirit disrupting the normal way of things. One of the infants would be killed. Although unthinkable to most of us today, this policy actually had a practical basis -- it was unlikely that two infants could be supported, primarily because the mother was so poorly nourished that it was catch-and-go whether she could produce enough milk to keep even one baby alive. To put this firmly on-topic, has any sf been written that utilizes the inability of undernourished women to conceive? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:10:04 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kym wrote: >> > Although it's exciting that a woman/women are invloved in the Mars expedition ... it's important to look critically at the expedition istelf, and at space "exploration" in general. To me, it is very much a problem that billions of dollars are being spent on this, while at the same time, there are more & more people living out in the streets ... >> > Martha responded: >> >Very true. But where do you think all those billions of dollars get spent? >> >Some, at least, go to salaries -- keeping people employed -- (including >> >the janitors who clean the buildings and the truckers who bring in the >> >raw materials)... Robin responded: >The fact is that not all the money spent on the project ends up in the >hands of workers, and not even the same proportion as if the money was >spent in other industries. The space industry is expensive-materials >heavy, and labour costs create fewer high-paying jobs, which are >traditional 'good jobs' in any event, high-tech/education science jobs >which overwhelmingly go to men who are already most able to survive in the >modern economy. I agree with Kym and Robin ... to me, feminism IS a class issue because women, as a class are underpaid, undervalued, and exploited. To wit, the thread in this list about male/female engineers, librarians, computer pioneers ... To me, one of the most important aspects of feminist sf utopias is an egalitarian vision that distributes resources and responsibilities among men and women equally. LeGuin's *Dispossesed* and Starhawk's *Fifth Sacred Thing* come to mind. Though specialized professions are developed according to the individual's interests and abilities, so-called shit jobs (or low-paying jobs, such as janitors and truck drivers) are everyone's responsibility. The scarcity or abundance of resources affects everyone more-or-less equally, so men and women work together as true equals to improve the conditions of their community. I agree with Kym that "feminism is about equality for all people, not just for a few privileged women who get ahead in a formerly 'male' profession." I disagree with Laura that "Feminism is definitely _not_ about equality for all people. Feminism is about equality for women, so, as abhorrent as a character such as Thatcher is, it's still progress for womankind!" I don't think it's progress for womankind when women become like the worst masculists on earth. 'Honorary men' like Thatcher simply prove the masculist view: that a gal can get ahead if she's just as ruthlessly competitive and aggressive as the rest of the boys in the club. What interests me about feminist sf -- and feminist men -- is that they embody an alternative kind of equality based on mutual respect and cooperation. This has ramifications not only with regard to gender but also class, race, sexual preference, disabilities, etc. I too am concerned about "a continuation of the colonizing mentality and activity that resulted in the theft of land and genocide of the native peoples of the Americas." I find it interesting that "first contact" masculist sf usually has some kind of mindless War of the Worlds confrontation in which the aliens are simply the dreaded "Other" (the only good alien is a dead alien). Whereas the feminist version (especially Butler) conveys complex possibilities that value the alien's (Other's) individual personality and culture. I agree with Martha, that "cutting the space program won't do it. That money won't go to public welfare." Setting the space program against public welfare is fighting over crumbs. We've got to change our national and cultural priorities. I think that socially-conscious feminism can play an important role. Poverty in the U.S. is disproportionate by not only gender but also by race and other types of "otherness." As Laura and Nicole point out, the actual amount of cash needed to alleviate much suffering is miniscule compared to what we spend on weapons. Which is, by the way, historically the major impetus for technological innovation. Hey, I'd rather see a woman on Mars than a new weapon of mass destruction any day, even if she is white and middle-class (-; just kidding!!!:-) Sorry, this subject really pushes my buttons. OK, I'll get off my soapbox too and go back to lurking and making the book-exchange page. Holly Yasui ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:16:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: book exchange/shopping In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina Yereshenko, Kate Bolin, and others who are having problems finding books: Send me your requests and a price range (e.g. exchange, i.e. free) so that I can put them on the book-exchange/shopping-service page. List what you have to trade if you want to exchange. Also, if anyone besides Neil has books to sell/exchange, or favorite or useful book-aquisition websites, let me know. Any more book scout volunteers? Australia and Canada, we need you. Please send to my personal e-mail: hollyy@sprynet.com NOT to the list, there's too much traffic here. This can really work, you know, if we have "mutual respect and cooperation." (just making fun of myself here). Holly ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:25:25 +0000 Reply-To: k.willshaw@chester.ac.uk Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: k.willshaw@CHESTER.AC.UK Subject: Contact movie in the UK Hi When I was quite a lot younger I read the book "Contact" by Carl Sagan and it was one of those books that really made a difference to the way I looked at myself. This was because the main character, Elly, was a woman physicist. This inspired me in an awful lot of ways and I am now doing a Phd in a science subject because I felt that I can believe in my abilities and intelligence. Anyway to get to the point of this message, does anyone know if Contact has a release date in the UK because I cant bear the thought that I am not going to be able to see this adaptation of one of the best books I remember reading as an impressionable teenager! yours waiting with bated breath to see this movie Kate ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:34:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: transgressive sci-fi/fantasy/horror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" By "transgressive," I mean something that breaks the limits and taboos of middle-class mores and imagination (explicit gay sex scenes, for instance). The term, as I use it, comes from the mid-twentieth century French philosopher Georges Bataille. He uses it to refer to certain experiences which break us out of our sense of subjectivity. The clearest statement of this idea is in his book, _Erotism: Death and Sensuality_ (City Lights Press). Michel Foucault took up this theme in his "Preface to Transgression." Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:47:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marsha commented: >I'd just like to interject that NOTHING to do with books/ >literature pays, in comparison to other sectors' salaries. > >When I managed a bookstore, my daughter received >free hot lunch at school. > >When I was a textbook editor, she was eligible for >reduced price lunches. > >My first two library director positions were in small >libraries, paying considerably less than $20,000/year. > >And George R.R. Martin told me that even after his >first two books were published, and he was in WHO'S >WHO, he was on foodstamps. > >We're not involved with literature for money, we do what >we do because it pleasures us to do so. > Yeah, what she said. If I wasn't in a two income house, I wouldn't make enough as a bookstore owner and self-employed staff member to pay for my son's daycare. let alone anything else. All right, who's going to write a clever short story with those in the book biz being highly respected and HIGHLY PAID?!?! 'Cause it'd have to be SF or fantasy... Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re: Mars/social justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As much as I am interested in SF, and utopian feminist fiction, and Babylon 5, I have serious reservations about the manned (staffed?) space program. I like things like satellites and the recent Mars probe, but I seriously question sending people into space when we can't solve our problems down here. BTW, I think you all should become familiar with the controversy surrounding the upcoming Cassini Mission--if that fails lots of people could die. Anyway, if you look at the NASA budget by itself it doesn't look like much, so we have to ask ourselves How are they doing all these space things on a pittance? The answer? Military spending. While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly from the huge miltary/industrial complex. It uses some facilities that are military, or were developed by the military. It employs pilots who were trained in the military. It benefits from research conducted in universities which are heavily funded by the military, especially in the areas of science (maybe the reason why our libraries are so underfunded is that they produce little of use to the military). All I am saying is follow the money trail. Space programs require heavy capital expenditures, which are only really possible in industrialized countries. The space program may have developed velcro for those $150 Nikes, but it ain't providing housing for the homeless in my neighborhood. True, our real targets should be set on the military, but I want to point out that the space program is very intertwined with the military. Chuck0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:31:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Contact movie WARNING SPOILERS!!!! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Contains Spoilers: only read if you have seen the movie!! I totally agree with laura, love that jodie foster but she is way too pokey (my word for think people, being big and well padded myself). While overall I liked the movie I have a couple major quibbles with it. I agree that the portrayal of the religious figure as a non-denominational, open-minded, intelligent, sympathetic figure was refreshing, even for a dyed in the wool atheist like myself. But too much of the science v. religion dialogue was too cliche. And in the end when she's confronted by the question whether she expects people to take what she says on faith, it was like "OK PEOPLE THIS IS IRONIC PAY ATTENTION, WASN'T THAT IRONIC?" subtlety is a virtue after all. Also: why didn't the brilliant scientist Elly ask about the length of the recording? And why couldn't they have sent someone else? Why didn't they even try? Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk and the awful Tulane University Library In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Kate Bolin wrote: > Well, I started hunting. And I'm beginning to realize that the Howard > Tilton Memorial Library of Tulane University, New Orleans, Louisiana is > HOPELESSLY out of date. > I found one book on the list of possible authors. Joan Slonczewski. I > don't remember the name of the book off the top of my head (since I just > write down the call number). One book. > The library's great for finding old books (I found a 1928 edition of "The > Golden Bough"), but anything published after 1990 that wasn't published in > the South....forget it. > Please use the Interlibrary Loan facilities at your library. You can get any book this way at usually no cost. Lori ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:12:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Mars/social justice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- I'm of divided mind about this question. I subscribe to the ideals of space exploration - surely its to the benefit of all peoples to expand knowledge and open up our options as a species. But I believe the space program in its current incarnation will accomplish those ideals only incidentally. NASA seems to have its roots firmly in the alliance of military, politicians and industry that made the Cold War so profitable for the economic elite (and which also keeps the Cold War going today, absurdly) . It's difficult to see the immediate benefits of NASA space programs, except for spinoff improvements to consumer products - and aren't these really benefits to industry? For me, it's even more difficult to imagine that the players in this scenario - NASA, its contractors, the politicians who support it - have much interest in the long-term benefit of lower-income folks such as myself. And I'm concerned that the main thrust of NASA's programs in the long term will be exploitive - mining, commercial use of near-space, etc. Yes , capitalism is a great motive for exploration. But historically this kind of exploration and settlement has been as destructive as it has been constructive, wasting opportunities in quests for specific resources for immediate markets. (An earthly example: How much more productive and sustainable would the Great Plains be if we had studied and tended the region's abundant original resources instead of "terraforming" them to European standards?) I wouldn't play this as a NASA vs. welfare issue. I see it as a rethinking issue. Approaching space exploration with the worst possible motives (military advantage and profit) seems like a terrible way to lay the groundwork for our possible future. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: CMUNSON In-Reply-To: <0007C4D6.1205@aaas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, CMUNSON wrote: > Surprise, I'm not technically a librarian any more. I'm a > webmaster/computer specialist for an association that didn't hire me > for my librarian background, but is finding that experience helpful > enough to send me to ALA. I jumped from my profession because the > salaries didn't pay enough to live on, not to mention getting ahead. > Lots of Former Librarians out there. If I could figure out something else to do, or be accepted in a job doing something else, I would happily move on to another field. Sure can't go back to school again - am still paying off my student loan to get my library degree. I'm fed up with the whole thing. Lori> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:36:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries << If I wasn't in a two income house, I wouldn't make enough as a bookstore owner and self-employed staff member to pay for my son's daycare. let alone anything else. >> Me too, me too!! Thank goodness for spouses with real jobs--he's a social worker & so will never be unemployed. ;-) But of course I'm a grad student who only works part-time in one of the big chain bookstores (oh, okay, the initials are B&N), but considering what I've seen the mgrs go through, I do *not* want their job!! Also--all this talk about feminist sf in French (Canadian?) has gotten me thoroughly intrigued. I majored in French as an undergrad, and many years later my grasp of the language isn't so great anymore, but if some kind soul could give some recommendations of where to start & how to get it I'd love to try to read some. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries << All right, who's going to write a clever short story with those in the book biz being highly respected and HIGHLY PAID?!?! 'Cause it'd have to be SF or fantasy... >> Hmm...maybe we could put an anthology together. _Chicks With Big Books_ or _Ladies of the Library_, perhaps? ;-) Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries (formerly, Mars -Reply) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Marsha Valance wrote: > > We're not involved with literature for money, we do what > we do because it pleasures us to do so. The only problem is, with me being involved in dog rescue (which gives me great satisfaction also), that I have 25 dogs to take care of. Dog food, vet bills......it ain't cheap - not to mention other things required for survival. Lori > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Contact movie WARNING SPOILERS!!!! << But too much of the science v. religion dialogue was too cliche. >> That's true--but it's a dialogue that's going on all the time, and I think a lot of people need to see it presented that way, worked into a good story. I live in the Deep South, and it was gratifying to me to see that the theater was *packed* (it was also kind of nice to think that the two Beavis & Butthead types next to me who were alternately having burping contests and discussing how many light-years away such-and-such was were being presented with a female scientist figure like it was no big deal!)--I hope it got some folks thinking. I think that to people like us who are accustomed to reading SF with a critical eye, the arguments seem pretty routine, but to most folks they probably aren't. Hmm, I seem to be de-lurking with a vegenance today... Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:41:50 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Anny Middon comments: >It's my understanding that small families haven't always been a matter of >choice, either. [snip] In times in which women live in semi-starved >condition, they often are not fertile. If body weight falls below a certain >level. menstruation ceases and the woman will not be able to conceive I quite agree! There are lots of reasons for involuntary infertility, including sexually transmitted diseases (which I'm inclined to attribute some of those small French families to, given the practically routine assumption in the society that all men went to brothels), under-nutrition, and sexual ignorance. There is a good book by Janet Farrell Brodie on Contraception and Abortion in C19th America which details all sorts of hygienic practices women were following which might have reduced their chances of conceiving even though they weren't deliberately practising contraception, and also, why women practising what they thought was the safe period found it worked, even though it was nothing like what we now know to be the time of ovulation. Given half a chance, I can go on and on about birth control, fertility, etc; so I was trying not to in my previous posting... Can't think offhand of any sf/fantasy about infertility caused by malnutrition--I have a faint idea there is something somewhere about an STD which is a contraceptive--anyone have any ideas? Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:30:54 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Beth Widmaier Subject: birth control books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just joined this listserv last week and have yet to join the conversation--I've been lurking back and enjoying all the intelligent conversation. Because I am new, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Susan Squier's book _Babies in Bottles: Twentieth-Century Visions of Reproductive Technology_ (1994). This book looks at images of reproductive technology in twentieth-centruy culture, considering the writings of Julian Huxley, JBS Haldane, Charlotte, Haldane, Aldous Huxley, and Naomi Mitchison, and weaving in the history of reproductive technology and its popular representations. The premise of the book is laid out in the introduction: "If we spend a little time teasing out the implications of these images of babies in bottles, we can see that they all enact the fantasy of the womb as a see-through container for the previously invisible fetus, but they differ in the meanings they attach to it." This book might be of interest to those out there interested in how science fiction, science writing, and fiction have reflected issues of reproductive technology. Although not strictly related to the issue of birth control (or the lack thereof), it is intricately tied to the notion of birth itself and woman's role in that process, and it is an excellent scholarly work that credits SF as a cultural force. Let me also take this space to introduce myself. I am a graduate student in English (twentieth century American fiction and feminist theory) at the Pennsylvania State University. When I was younger I read a lot of science fiction, and I wrote my undergraduate honors thesis on Feminist Utopias (mostly twentieth century, such as Atwood, Piercy, Le Guin, Brantenberg, Carter, etc, but with a little background all the way back to Margaret Cavendish). I am still interested in Feminist SF and read what I can, although I don't have as much time to read the fun stuff as I used to. I have started compiling a list of "must reads" from the listserv, and will soon need to drop out of graduate school to keep up with it! Beth Widmaier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:48:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: 9309629n@Magpie.Magill.UniSA.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 4:42 PM 7/14/97, 9309629n@Magpie.Magill.UniSA.edu.au wrote: >> At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: >> >> >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go >> >down? (g) >> >It happened in the field of librarianship! We've had to re-invent >ourselves as "information managers" (or information scientists) lest we >be thought of as overpaid clerks. Brigid, Alas, it does not surprise me; I'm sure there are other examples as well . . . Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:48:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:39 PM 7/14/97, Laura Wigod wrote: >Feminism is about equality for women, so, as abhorrent as a character such >as Thatcher is, it's still progress for womankind! (sigh) I realize it's >difficult to acknowledge that women are as capable of all the -isms as any >man, but that's the way it is! Yes -- the idea, I thought, was that women should be able to be just as big a jerk as a man and get the same kind of rewards out of it that that man would. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:48:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:41 AM 7/14/97, Laura Wigod wrote: >I've always wanted a large family, largely >(haha), I believe, because of the horrificly abusive nightmarish violent >childhood I had. One of the (many) things that got me through it was >fantasizing about the kind of parent _I_ was going to be, and, which, I can >say, most happily, I now am. (snip) >Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the decision to have more children >goes beyond social, cultural and economic reasons and encompasses the >deeply personal. Agreed, of course; but I have to add that the deeply personal reasons can also be negative in both cause and effect (obviously not the case for you, thank gods). I am thinking of a young woman I know who grew up with an emotionally and pyschologically abusive and manipulative mother, and who for many years moaned about her "baby-lust", which she herself understood to be an expression of a desire similar to yours, to give some kids the great childhood that she had been deprived of. However, it was quite clear to virtually everyone around her (although not to her in any respect) that she had come out of her own childhood experience with such a fear-driven drive to control everything and everyone around her that it seemed virtually certain that instead -- if she had children -- she would duplicate, more or less, the miserable situation in which she had grown up, this time as the mom instead of the kid. Fortunately, various economic and personal factors have since brought her around to deciding that she hasn't the resources to bear and raise a child, and she has thrown off this obsession and plunged instead into her career, with results that delight her and make all who know her proud and pleased on her behalf. In other words, as I guess everyone who thinks at all knows by now, This Field Is Mined; Always Proceed With Caution! You found a path. Others who set out with similar intent can wreck themselves and those they love. Of course, it's perfectly possible that we were all wrong, and that if she had had a baby after all the experience would have led her to grow out of the worst of the ruts that her own bad experience had left in her soul. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:54:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: horror/fantasy/sci-fi course In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Have any of you has taught science fiction, fantasy or horror >>fiction of a "transgressive" nature before? What was the response you got >>from your students? I look forward to reading your responses. > What do you mean by "transgressive"? The current, idiomatic usage seems to mean "titillating to Twenty-Somethings," the age cohort whose adolescence was steeped in the Sex = Death ( = Blood) message of the first decade of AIDS. For sf's notions of "transgressive", c.f. _Dangerous Visions_. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:22:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: <0007CBEB.1205@aaas.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CMUNSON wrote: >BTW, I think you all should become familiar with the controversy >surrounding the upcoming Cassini Mission--if that fails lots of people >could die. Huh? >While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly >from the huge miltary/industrial complex. Then why start by picking on NASA? >All I am saying is follow the money trail. Space programs require heavy >capital expenditures, which are only really possible in industrialized >countries. "follow the money" usually involves hard numbers. With all due respect, all you provide is hand-waving. >The space program may have developed velcro for those $150 Nikes, but it >ain't providing housing for the homeless in my neighborhood. Just about everyone knows that neither velcro nor idioticly priced gym shoes have nothing to do with the space program. I, for one, find the low quality of your bluster and rhetoric borders on insulting. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:30:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: <199707151712.NAA118226@mime3.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: >I'm of divided mind about this question. I subscribe to the ideals of >space exploration - surely its to the benefit of all peoples to expand >knowledge and open up our options as a species. But I believe the space >program in its current incarnation will accomplish those ideals only >incidentally. > >NASA seems to have its roots firmly in the alliance of military, >politicians and industry that made the Cold War so profitable for the >economic elite (and which also keeps the Cold War going today, absurdly) >. It's difficult to see the immediate benefits of NASA space programs, >except for spinoff improvements to consumer products - and aren't these >really benefits to industry? For me, it's even more difficult to imagine >that the players in this scenario - NASA, its contractors, the >politicians who support it - have much interest in the long-term benefit >of lower-income folks such as myself. > >And I'm concerned that the main thrust of NASA's programs in the long >term will be exploitive - mining, commercial use of near-space, etc. Yes >, capitalism is a great motive for exploration. But historically this >kind of exploration and settlement has been as destructive as it has >been constructive, wasting opportunities in quests for specific >resources for immediate markets. (An earthly example: How much more >productive and sustainable would the Great Plains be if we had studied >and tended the region's abundant original resources instead of >"terraforming" them to European standards?) > >I wouldn't play this as a NASA vs. welfare issue. I see it as a >rethinking issue. Approaching space exploration with the worst possible >motives (military advantage and profit) seems like a terrible way to lay >the groundwork for our possible future. >-- >David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com > >"The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind >to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:31:00 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gabrielle Bate Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries >Also--all this talk about feminist sf in French (Canadian?) has gotten me >thoroughly intrigued. I majored in French as an undergrad, and many years >later my grasp of the language isn't so great anymore, but if some kind soul >could give some recommendations of where to start & how to get it I'd love to >try to read some. > >Nicole As I've said before, I'm very fond of Elisabeth Vonarburg's work, especially _Chroniques du pays des meres_. It's published by Quebec/Amerique. Also take a look at www.alire.com. Alire is a new publisher in Quebec. And if you have titles in mind there's Schoenhof's Foreign Books in Cambridge, MA (www.schoenhofs.com). They don't have much sf at all, apparently it doesn't sell, but they will special order. There's also a magazine called Solaris that has a web page. Gabby Bate bate@facstaff.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: joanna goltzman Subject: sex scenes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao wrote: "The only one who I got a mixed response on was Poppy Z. Brite. And that had more to do with the students having problems with some very explicit gay love scenes. My response was to take that to another level and ask them if the vividness of Brite's language in describing the love-making scenes was what really disturbed them. Or did it have to do with the fact that this was gay sex that was being so vividly represented. Most of them denied that the latter was the problem. But I had a feeling that this was what really bothered them." I also was bothered by the sex scenes in some of the feminist sf books I've been reading until I realized that those scenes are more about societal issues than about relationships between specific individuals. Such scenes experiment with and challenge gender roles, societal norms, and taboos. I often find that sex scenes in novels from other genres are just boring. Feminist SF sex scenes are anything but boring because there's so much going on in them besides sex. Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:50:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: <970715023907_-1493524419@emout11.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anny, I'm afraid that the "natural birth control" (i.e. that semi-starved women are not fertile) is overestimated. In the place I came from (Tajikistan, in Asia) majority of women (especially in remote villages) have babies as often as every nine months, since they are married and until the menapause (that is if they live through it). First reason is that Muslim religion prohibits birth control. Second, a couple would not even try to use it,if they do not have a son yet. Girls are not considered worth anything, so if a family has eight daughters, the woman will still be forced to have babies until she has a boy. The infant mortality is one of the highest in the world, so only 7-8 children survive, but that's enough to keep the family at such poverty level, that the only food they can afford is bread and tea -- for years. Which does not seem to prevent more pregnancies. What I am saying, it would probably save a lot of lives, if women would not have children until they are well-nourished, but unfortunately, it's not the case. Of course, this is not a scientific fact, just something I had a chance to witness for the first 20 years of my life. Marina P.S. Another thing - children in that society are considered the best blessing of ones' life, and the only one (unlike money) available to everyone. It is important to a point that if a woman cannot have children, her husband is very likely to kick her out. And people who are not married (and therefore, cannot have children) are considered having wasted their life. On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Anny Middon wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-13 07:40:11 EDT, Lesley_Hall@MSN.COM (Lesley Hall) > writes: > > It's my understanding that small families haven't always been a matter of > choice, either. (My source for this is an educational "tour" kind of thing I > took in Alice Springs a few years ago; since this is not the most reliable of > sources, I'd greatly appreciate any corrections.) > > In times in which women live in semi-starved condition, they often are not > fertile. If body weight falls below a certain level. menstruation ceases and > the woman will not be able to conceive. (I believe this happens to > anorexics.) In the aboriginal group covered in the tour, in the past it had > been typical for a woman who married at age 13 (a common age for marriage) > and lived to post-menopausal years to have only three or four children. And > of course, not all would live to adulthood. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:54:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Haven't been paying a whole lot of attention; got back from Readercon to 126 posts, and am trying to clear them. So you'll understand if this response seems a bit off base, but Nancy Kress's next novel starts from the premise of children being extremely scarce due to falling sperm counts in men. Heard Nancy read from it in Toronto a few weeks ago. She lamented a little that the research on which she based the promise is being proved to be not quite accurate, but the novel's written now. I think it's due out next year. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:58:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970715132246.006fc668@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:22 PM 7/15/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: >CMUNSON wrote: >>While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly >>from the huge miltary/industrial complex. > >Then why start by picking on NASA? > >>All I am saying is follow the money trail. Space programs require heavy >>capital expenditures, which are only really possible in industrialized >>countries. > >"follow the money" usually involves hard numbers. With all due respect, >all you provide is hand-waving. > >>The space program may have developed velcro for those $150 Nikes, but it >>ain't providing housing for the homeless in my neighborhood. > >Just about everyone knows that neither velcro nor idioticly priced gym >shoes have nothing to do with the space program. I, for one, find the low >quality of your bluster and rhetoric borders on insulting. > >Neil Rest Having a bad day, Neil? As Chuck explained at the end of his message: >our real targets should be set on the military, but I want to point out that >the space program is very intertwined with the military. This seems like a reasonable assertion to me. The reason he's "picking on NASA" rather than the military is that someone had already broached the topic. I also have my doubts about the wisdom of the space program. It's true that there are many things we can learn from it, but it seems unlikely to me that the returns are going to approach the investment. Other investments (such as quality education) have a much higher cost to benefit ratio for society as a whole, so it seems that we ought to redirect our spending accordingly. Paul Feyerabend, an outspoken critic of the scientific establishment, said (in _Science in a Free Society_) re: the US moon trip of 1969: "Of course, our well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries are liable to burst with excitement over events such as the moonshots, the double helix, non-equilibrium thermodynamics. But let us look at the matter from a different point of view, and it becomes a ridiculous exercise in futility. It needed billions of dollars, thousands of well-trained assistants, years of hard work to enable some inarticulate and rather limited contemporary to perform a few graceless hops in a place nobody in his right mind would think of visiting - a dried out, airless, hot stone." He overstates it a bit, but in essence I have to agree with him. Regarding high tech in general, I just finished _Woman on the Edge of Time_, and thought that one of the less convincing aspects of the future utopia was the casual presence of gadgets like the "kenner." I suppose by that time humans may have found better ways of making logic chips & the like, but as it stands now the manufacture of semiconductors is anything but environmentally friendly. How would it fit in to their society? (I say this fully aware that my life would be radically different without my computer, which allows me to do great things like participate in this list.) For the most part, I really liked the book. Mattapoisett approximates my own ideals of gender, sexuality, social fabric. I didn't quite know what to make of the ending, though. Was it implied that by killing the doctors Connie was helping to pave the way for Mattapoisett? I suppose at the least it prevented the experimental brain surgery from being carried out... As Luciente says, "We all fight when we're back to the wall... or to tear down a wall." Perhaps if everyone learned how to direct anger appropriately, things would change for the better. Those who have read the book, what do you think? -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Loop Guru, Duniya; Shonen Knife, Brand New Knife "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:58:46 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nicole Youngman wrote: > > << All right, who's going to write a clever short story with those in the > book > biz being highly respected and HIGHLY PAID?!?! 'Cause it'd have to be SF or > fantasy... > >> > > Hmm...maybe we could put an anthology together. _Chicks With Big Books_ or > _Ladies of the Library_, perhaps? ;-) > > Nicole _Babes with Books_, definitely. (Maybe Esther Friesner would consider it. I hear she's doing a second Chicks in Chainmail anthology.) Facetiously yours, Berni Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:40:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Contact movie writes: >Now Jodie Foster is not Octavia Butler... Octavia Butler acts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:05:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: another quick comment from moderator Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII oh yeah. and when a topic has veered substantially from the original thread it is very helpful to change the subject line to something like: new topic (was re: old topic) happy chatting to all ... list-mistress LQ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:03:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: mars & librarian's salaries Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII gentle reminder from moderator: although the discussions of mars, the space program, and librarian's woefully inadequate salaries are fascinating (especially the salary discussion, to me, a librarian) - they are not immediately relevant to the discussion at hand ... Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:09:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Master i Margarita Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nalo, Sorry it took me so long. My mail program crashed and I was just able to recover last week messages. Confusion about who wrote _1984_ is no big deal. Nichego strashnogo :) . I read another story by Orwell, I believe it's original title was something like _Pigs Barn_. It was good, but a little straightforward. More politics than fiction. Marina On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > > > > Nalo, > > > > title while translating the book. I never read _1984_, though. Isn't it > > by George Orwell? > > NH: Damn, yeah, it is. I don't even have the excuse of advancing age, > not really. > > -nalo > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:00:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:39 AM 7/15/97, Anny Middon wrote: >To put this firmly on-topic, has any sf been written that utilizes the >inability of undernourished women to conceive? Well, drat, I probably *should* have in WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD -- although unless I had gone on to "explain" that this factor had led to the propagation of women who had a higher tolerance for undernourishment and so could still conceive, I would have had to have junked the whole story, since most likely there wouldn't have been any Holdfast people! Does anybody know if the Ik people, who were written about years ago as living in conditions as close to total starvation as exist anywhere, still do exist, and if so how they have coped with/gotten around/managed to keep their numbers up in spite of being starved all the time, if indeed they have? The book was a sensation, and then nothing was ever heard again about these victims of a government program that had uprooted them from their lands and forcibly settled them someplace else where they literally could not produce any food for themselves (at least that's how I remember the story -- it was years ago now, a true horror story). Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ann Wheeler Subject: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women I've just seen _Contact_, and I would be interested in hearing how other people react to the female characters in the film. While I think that there's much to like about Ellie, the Jodie Foster character, I wish that she had some contact with other women at some point in the film. There are some group shots in the control that show other female scientists, and there is the African-American woman who seems to be in on the important political decisions. However, the people with whom Ellie has real relationships--her friends, her colleagues, her rivals, her lover--all seem to be men. During her childhood, her father is her major influence; she never knows her mother (who dies in childbirth, I think?) If I'm remembering correctly, the child at the end who asks the question about extra-terrestrial life is a boy. I was pleased with the portrayal of Ellie as a woman whose life is dominated by a passion that is not romantic, and I found the final shot when she is alone in the desert unexpectedly moving (and I wanted to cheer because she wasn't shown in the arms of Palmer Joss, having lost the aliens but gotten the man). But I also think that perhaps in some ways she represents very much a masculine fantasy of what an independent woman's life might be like: she is unmarried; she works; she certainly manages her life competently; but all the important people in her life are men. (Maybe, though, this would be realistic for the portrayal of the professional life of a woman working in her field today? I don't know.) I've also been interested by some of the fragments of television reviews that I've heard. I haven't paid close attention to them, but it seems to me that I've heard at least two describe her as an isolated woman who hides from her personal pain in her work. I can see some evidence for this point of view in the film, but on the whole I don't see the film emphasizing her isolation (although she is frequently shown alone, but I think that's different). Indeed (given that all her relationships are with men), she seems to me to have a number of enduring friendships. Do the reviewers just not know what to say about a female character in a movie whose story is not a love story? (or--as my teen-aged students, male and female, often tell me, am I just being over-sensitive?) Ann Wheeler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:06:36 +0100 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time, was re:Mars/social justice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice wrote: > Regarding high tech in general, I just finished _Woman on the Edge of > Time_, and thought that one of the less convincing aspects of the future > utopia was the casual presence of gadgets like the "kenner." I suppose by > that time humans may have found better ways of making logic chips & the > like, but as it stands now the manufacture of semiconductors is anything > but environmentally friendly. How would it fit in to their society? I must confess, the "kenners" were something I didn't think very clearly about. I was too focussed on how the "brooder" might fit into their society, and the idea that to be equal women had to give up the _power_ to give birth naturally. Now that we all know about how IVF works, I would question whether the brooder would fit. "Harvesting" the raw materials required to create babies outside the womb does not seem to me to be the choice that would be made by radicals wresting the control of science from the oppressors. What do you think, Janice? > > For the most part, I really liked the book. Mattapoisett approximates my > own ideals of gender, sexuality, social fabric. I didn't quite know what to > make of the ending, though. Was it implied that by killing the doctors > Connie was helping to pave the way for Mattapoisett? I also think it is a wonderful book and that Mattapoisett has a lot to recommend it. I think its flaws are as stimulating to debate as its successes. I think you are right about the ending. I believe that Piercy is stressing that direct action is required to change the status quo - not just theorising - and that we can't leave all the power to act in the hands of those we disagree with. We have to take personal responsibility for change. Having read Woman on the Edge of Time, it's very interesting to then read He, She and It (Body of Glass in the UK where I'm based) and compare Piercy's two different visions of the future. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Master i Margarita In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:09 7/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Nalo, >Sorry it took me so long. My mail program crashed and I was just able to >recover last week messages. > >Confusion about who wrote _1984_ is no big deal. Nichego strashnogo :) . >I read another story by Orwell, I believe it's original title was >something like _Pigs Barn_. It was good, but a little straightforward. >More politics than fiction. > >Marina > _Animal Farm_ -- and you are correct; politics was Orwell's big subject. (Base of _1984_ as well, I think.) Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:48:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 20:00 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 2:39 AM 7/15/97, Anny Middon wrote: > >>To put this firmly on-topic, has any sf been written that utilizes the >>inability of undernourished women to conceive? > >Well, drat, I probably *should* have in WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD -- >although unless I had gone on to "explain" that this factor had led to >the propagation of women who had a higher tolerance for undernourishment >and so could still conceive, I would have had to have junked the whole >story, since most likely there wouldn't have been any Holdfast people! > >Does anybody know if the Ik people, who were written about years ago as >living in conditions as close to total starvation as exist anywhere, >still do exist, and if so how they have coped with/gotten around/managed >to keep their numbers up in spite of being starved all the time, if indeed >they have? The book was a sensation, and then nothing was ever heard >again about these victims of a government program that had uprooted them >from their lands and forcibly settled them someplace else where they >literally could not produce any food for themselves (at least that's how >I remember the story -- it was years ago now, a true horror story). > >Suzy > The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group actually like the Ik had even existed. (But that could be counter- propaganda.) Anyone have a recent take on this? Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:55:52 -0400 Reply-To: Tanya Wood Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women In-Reply-To: <970715225004_424837456@emout13.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I saw "Contact" last night- the space travel scenes were fabulous, the tropical island paradise vividly surreal, and the scientific teamwork going beyond the traditional single scientist as hero cliche. I also thought the appalling Drummond was a cutting critique of what can really go on with academic advisors, and that this male "voice of authority" kept on being heeded while Ellie's own voice was marginalised by the powers that be. In terms of her relationships, in many senses she seemed to be a Susan Calvin figure in a buldingsroman where she learns that other (male) people are all that really matters in the end (although women may be useful for getting directions to a dress store). I thought Ann Hampton's comments very perceptive on the lack of women in Ellie's life. What I'd like to take issue with is the romantic aspect of the movie, which, alongside the change in Ellie's perception of religious people (from lunatic and hostile to warm and supportive), seemed to me to be sentimental, and a "soft sell" to a cinema audience that wouldn't find a Susan Calvin (or a very probably queer Jodie Foster) sympathetic. The protective arm of the strong but tender male character as Ellie stumbles out of the halls of the inquiry seemed a walking cliche and an indication that Ellie alone is not quite up to the demands of public life. And I also don't think that Ellie was alone in the final shot in the desert. As the sandy rocks trail away from her hand, on her wedding finger is what seemed to me to be clearly a ring. Moral: here a happy ending as traditional (and cliched) as it is annoying in that it strongly suggests that marriage is still the proper kind of closure for women. But apart from these points, I loved the movie. The relationship with Palmer could also be read from another perspective: that, for once, it is a man providing emotional support from the finges of the movie. This is usually the position occupied by a female supporting character (who would admitedly have substantially less public power than Palmer did). And thanks to Mike Levy for providing me with his diss. information. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:14:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women Comments: To: Tanya Wood In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: In terms of her > relationships, in many senses she seemed to be a Susan Calvin figure in a > buldingsroman where she learns that other (male) people are all that > really matters in the end (although women may be useful for getting > directions to a dress store). I thought Ann Hampton's comments very > perceptive on the lack of women in Ellie's life. > > Tanya. > I pretty much agree with Tanya's and other's analysis of male-female power relationships in Contact, but with one suggestion. The black, female presidential assistant, played by Angela Bassett, is considerably more than just a good source of information on where to buy a nice dress. She has considerable power and uses it as needed, for example when Drummond (Drumlin? whatever) is trying to completely take over the project and she, pretty much by executive fiat, states that Ellie will continue to have day to day control over operations. I wonder how much of Ellie's isolation from female co-workers is simply the usual male-authored cliche on Sagan's part and how much of it is the way things still are (or were when Sagan wrote the book in the late 1980s) for women working in the hard sciences. Anyone here have the kind of background to comment on this from first hand experience? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:24:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Tuesday, July 15, 1997: Joanna Goltzmann wrote: "I also was bothered by the sex scenes in some of the feminist sf books I've been reading until I realized that those scenes are more about societal issues than about relationships between specific individuals. Such scenes experiment with and challenge gender rolse, societal norms, and taboos.... Feminist SF sex scenes are anything but boing because there's so much going on in them besides sex." My reply: Exactly! This is what I tried to get across to my students. But like most undergraduates today, my students are unsophisticated readers they could only focus on instances in the novel which shocked them. In fact there were only two students who didn't have a real problem with the novel. They were older and more open-minded than some of the other students. I taught Samuel Delany's _Tales from Nerveryon_ last year in a freshman composition class. The odd thing is that the students didn't seem to complain about the presence of a homosexual relationship between Gorgik and Small Sarg. It was the women who were most open to reading and discussing these issues. The male students seemed to be somewhat discomforted by the reading material. On the other hand, a colleague of mine really focused on sexuality and feminism in her class and received a huge amount of resistance from her students. Here's an interesting question. Would this have something to do with the differences in gender between myself and my colleague? Do students tend to respect male teachers and their idiosyncratic interests more than female teachers and their interests? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:56:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao asked: >I taught Samuel Delany's _Tales from Nerveryon_ last year in a freshman >composition class. The odd thing is that the students didn't seem to >complain about the presence of a homosexual relationship between Gorgik and >Small Sarg. It was the women who were most open to reading and discussing >these issues. The male students seemed to be somewhat discomforted by the >reading material. On the other hand, a colleague of mine really focused on >sexuality and feminism in her class and received a huge amount of >resistance from her students. Here's an interesting question. Would this >have something to do with the differences in gender between myself and my >colleague? Do students tend to respect male teachers and their >idiosyncratic interests more than female teachers and their interests? Insufficient data: as critical thinking contiues to be eliminated, a potentially important part of your qestion is the ages of the people involved. A "generation gap" hypothesis relating to less and less intellectual capability might account for your data at least as well as a "gender" hypothesis. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:57:20 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: sex scenes While Joanna's comment >Feminist SF sex scenes are anything but boring because there's so >much going on in them besides sex. is worth saying, I'm not sure how far this connects to Poppy Z Brite. I'm probably not really in a position to comment as I completely bogged down in (I think it was) her first novel and couldn't finish it (and can't remember the title), but my distinct impression that she was not a feminist and was not writing from this perspective, a feeling reinforced by press interviews in which she claimed that she was 'really' a gay man (though I believe she has since married, something gay men are not yet generally permitted to do...). I suppose she could claim to be writing from a 'queer'/transgressive perspective? But I think this differs somewhat from feminism. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:30:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Joke: The Future vs. Star Trek Comments: To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ok, it's definitely not written from a feminist point-of-view--but it's still hilarious... Life Will Not Be Like Star Trek ------------------------------- ......................................................... Written by Scott Adams, published in "The Dilbert Future" by HarperBusiness. Copyright United Media, 1997. Please keep this notice with the text if you forward it by e-mail. ......................................................... There are so many Star Trek(tm) spin-offs that it is easy to fool yourself into thinking that the Star Trek vision is an accurate vision of the future. Sadly, Star Trek does not take into account the stupidity, selfishness, and horniness of the average human being. Allow me to describe some of the more obvious errors in the Star Trek vision. Medical Technology ------------------ On Star Trek, the doctors have hand-held devices that instantly close any openings in the skin. Imagine that sort of device in the hands of your unscrupulous friends. They would sneak up behind you and seal your ass shut as a practical joke. The devices would be sold in novelty stores instead of medical outlets. All things considered, I'm happy that it's not easy to close other people's orifices. Transporter ----------- It would be great to be able to beam your molecules across space and then reassemble them. The only problem is that you have to trust your co-worker to operate the transporter. These are the same people who won't add paper to the photocopier or make a new pot of coffee after taking the last drop. I don't think they'll be double-checking the transporter coordinates. They'll be accidentally beaming people into walls, pets, and furniture. People will spend all their time apologizing for having inanimate objects protruding from parts of their bodies. 'Pay no attention to the knickknacks; I got beamed into a hutch yesterday.' If I could beam things from one place to another, I'd never leave the house. I'd sit in a big comfy chair and just start beaming groceries, stereo equipment, cheerleaders, and anything else I wanted right into my house. I'm fairly certain I would abuse this power. If anybody came to arrest me, I'd beam them into space. If I wanted some paintings for my walls, I'd beam the contents of the Louvre over to my place, pick out the good stuff, and beam the rest into my neighbor's garage. If I were watching the news on television and didn't like what I heard, I would beam the anchorman into my living room during the commercial break, give him a vicious wedgie, and beam him back before anybody noticed. I'd never worry about 'keeping up with the Joneses,' because as soon as they got something nice, it would disappear right out of their hands. My neighbors would have to use milk crates for furniture. And that's only after I had all the milk crates I would ever need for the rest of my life. There's only one thing that could keep me from spending all my time wreaking havoc with the transporter: the holodeck. Holodeck -------- For those of you who only watched the 'old' Star Trek, the holodeck can create simulated worlds that look and feel just like the real thing. The characters on Star Trek use the holodeck for recreation during breaks from work. This is somewhat unrealistic. If I had a holodeck, I'd close the door and never come out until I died of exhaustion. It would be hard to convince me I should be anywhere but in the holodeck, getting my oil massage from Cindy Crawford and her simulated twin sister. Holodecks would be very addicting. If there weren't enough holodecks to go around, I'd get the names of all the people who had reservations ahead of me and beam them into concrete walls. I'd feel tense about it, but that's exactly why I'd need a massage. I'm afraid the holodeck will be society's last invention. Sex with Aliens --------------- According to Star Trek, there are many alien races populated with creatures who would like to have sex with humans. This would open up a lot of anatomical possibilities, but imagine the confusion. It's hard enough to have sex with human beings, much less humanoids. One wrong move and you're suddenly transported naked to the Gamma Quadrant to stand trial for who-knows-what. This could only add to performance anxiety. You would never be quite sure what moves would be sensual and what moves would be a galactic-sized mistake. Me Trying to Have Sex with an Alien ----------------------------------- Me: May I touch that? Alien: That is not an erogenous zone. It is a separate corporeal being that has been attached to my body for six hundred years. Me: It's cute. I wonder if it would let me have sex with it. Alien: That's exactly what I said six hundred years ago. The best part about having sex with aliens, according to the Star Trek model, is that the alien always dies a tragic death soon afterward. I don't have to tell you how many problems that would solve. Realistically, the future won't be that convenient. Phasers ------- I would love to have a device that would stun people into unconsciousness without killing them. I would use it ten times a day. If I got bad service at the convenience store, I'd zap the clerk. If somebody with big hair sat in front of me at the theater, zap! On Star Trek, there are no penalties for stunning people with phasers. It happens all the time. All you have to do is claim you were possessed by an alien entity. Apparently, that is viewed as a credible defense in the Star Trek future. Imagine real criminals in a world where the 'alien possession' defense is credible. Criminal: Yes, officer, I did steal that vehicle, and I did kill the occupants, but I was possessed by an evil alien entity. Officer: Well, okay. Move along. I wish I had a phaser right now. My neighbor's dog likes to stand under my bedroom window on the other side of the fence and bark for hours at a time. My neighbor has employed the bold defense that he believes it might be another neighbor's dog, despite the fact that I am standing there looking at him barking only twenty feet away. In a situation like this, a phaser is really the best approach. I could squeeze off a clean shot through the willow tree. A phaser doesn't make much noise, so it wouldn't disturb anyone. Then the unhappy little dog and I could both get some sleep. If the neighbor complains, I'll explain that the phaser was fired by the other neighbor's dog, a known troublemaker who is said to be invisible. And if that doesn't work, a photon torpedo is clearly indicated. Cyborgs ------- Given the choice, I would rather be a cyborg instead of 100 percent human. I like the thought of technology becoming part of my body. As a human, I am constantly running to the toolbox in my garage to get a tool to deal with some new household malfunction. If I were a cyborg, I might have an electric drill on my arm, plus a metric socket set. That would save a lot of trips. From what I've seen, the cyborg concept is a modular design, so you can add whatever tools you think you'd use most. I'd love to see cross-hairs appear in my viewfinder every time I looked at someone. It would make me feel menacing, and I'd like that. I'd program myself so that anytime I saw a car salesman, a little message would appear in my viewfinder that said 'Target Locked On.' It would also be great to have my computer built into my skull. That way I could surf the Net during useless periods of life, such as when people talk to me. All I'd have to do is initiate a head-nodding subroutine during boring conversations and I could amuse myself in my head all day long. I think that if anyone could become a cyborg, there would be a huge rush of people getting in line for the conversion. Kids would like it for the look. Adults would like it for its utility. Cyborg technology has something for everyone. So, unlike Star Trek, I can imagine everyone wanting to be a cyborg. The only downside I can see is that when the human part dies and you're at the funeral, the cyborg part will try to claw its way out of the casket and slay all the mourners. But that risk can be minimized by saying you have an important business meeting, so you can't make it to the service. Shields ------- I wish I had an invisible force field. I'd use it all the time, especially around people who spit when they talk or get too close to my personal space. In fact, I'd probably need a shield quite a bit if I also had a phaser to play with. I wouldn't need a big shield system like the one they use to protect the Enterprise, maybe just a belt-clip device for personal use. I could insult dangerous people without fear of retribution. Whatever crumbs of personality I now have would be completely unnecessary in the future. On the plus side, it would make shopping much more fun. Shopping with Shields Up ------------------------ Me: Ring this up for me, you unpleasant cretin. Saleswoman: I oughta slug you! Me: Try it. My shields are up. Saleswoman: Damn! Me: There's nothing you can do to harm me. Saleswoman: I guess you're right. Would you like to open a charge account? Our interest rates are very reasonable. Me: Nice try. Long-Range Sensors ------------------ If people had long-range sensors, they would rarely use them to scan for new signs of life. I think they would use them to avoid work. You could run a continuous scan for your boss and then quickly transport yourself out of the area when he came near. If your manager died in his office, you would know minutes before the authorities discovered him, and that means extra break time. Vulcan Death Grip ----------------- Before all you Trekkies write to correct me, I know there is no such thing as a Vulcan Death Grip even in Star Trek. But I wish there were. That would have come in handy many times. It would be easy to make the Vulcan Death Grip look like an accident. 'I was just straightening his collar and he collapsed.' I think the only thing that keeps most people from randomly killing other citizens is the bloody mess it makes and the high likelihood of getting caught. With the Vulcan Death Grip, it would be clean and virtually undetectable. Everybody would be killing people left and right. You wouldn't be able to have a decent conversation at the office over the sound of dead co-workers hitting the carpet. The most common sounds in corporate America would be, 'I'm sorry I couldn't give you a bigger raise, but . . . erk!' And that's why the future won't be like Star Trek. hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:05:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries << _Babes with Books_, definitely. (Maybe Esther Friesner would consider it. I hear she's doing a second Chicks in Chainmail anthology.) >> Oh goody. I loved the first one!! I had to chuckle, too, reflecting that Friesner has more than earned her feminist credentials with _Psalms of Herod_ & _Sword of Mary_. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:27:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Poppy Z. Brite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I believe Poppy has actually claimed to be "a gay man trapped in a woman's body." Draw your own conclusions... I have only read her first book, for rather odd reasons. I read the final 2/3 sitting in a hospital emergency room trying to find out what had brought my husband to his knees in agony, and thence. Therefore, there is this inexcapable association between Poppy's works and his pain and hospital smells. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:59:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Master i Margarita Comments: To: MARINA YERESHENKO In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: _Animal Farm_ is, I believe, the Orwell title to which you're referring. I read it as a pre-teen, and missed the political implications because I was too young to understand them. However, I did grasp most of the moral implications of the novel, and very much enjoyed it. I was a much more flexible reader as a child. Paka, -nalo On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > Nalo, > Sorry it took me so long. My mail program crashed and I was just able to > recover last week messages. > > Confusion about who wrote _1984_ is no big deal. Nichego strashnogo :) . > I read another story by Orwell, I believe it's original title was > something like _Pigs Barn_. It was good, but a little straightforward. > More politics than fiction. > > Marina > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > > > > > > > Nalo, > > > > > > title while translating the book. I never read _1984_, though. Isn't it > > > by George Orwell? > > > > NH: Damn, yeah, it is. I don't even have the excuse of advancing age, > > not really. > > > > -nalo > > > > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 > > > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:47:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > I taught Samuel Delany's _Tales from Nerveryon_ last year in a freshman > composition class. The odd thing is that the students didn't seem to > complain about the presence of a homosexual relationship between Gorgik and > Small Sarg. It was the women who were most open to reading and discussing > these issues. The male students seemed to be somewhat discomforted by the > reading material. On the other hand, a colleague of mine really focused on > sexuality and feminism in her class and received a huge amount of > resistance from her students. Here's an interesting question. Would this > have something to do with the differences in gender between myself and my > colleague? Do students tend to respect male teachers and their > idiosyncratic interests more than female teachers and their interests? > > Erik > Erik, I'm going to hazard a guess, based on my own experience, that you got away with discussing Delany's gay stories without too much resistance, in part, because your male students were so uncomfortable that they couldn't bring themselves to say anything. I also know from experience that it can be easier for a male teacher than a female teacher to get away with discussing feminist and gender-related topics in class, at least when it comes to dealing with less advanced students. I share the teaching of children's literature classes in my department with another colleague. My female colleague and I developed our syllabus together and we both deal with such controversial topics as gender roles, same-sex marriages, kids deciding that they're gay, sex education, child abuse, and incest, and their presentation in books for children. Because we developed the syllabus together, I know that my colleague and I are pretty much in agreement on these topics. Neither of us is notably more radical in our thinking than the other, despite the fact that Virginia is an out lesbian whereas I'm hetrosexual. Yet, when it comes to class discussion (and also teacher evaluation forms), Virginia gets a lot more resistance than I do. Partly, I expect, it's the whole gender-based respect thing (female teachers often have to work harder to gain their students' respect than do male teachers), but it also has to do with the students not knowing quite what to make of a male teacher talking a feminist line. Because my colleague fits their stereotyped idea of a radical feminist, she's easier to argue with. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The only Poppy Z. Brite which I've ever read was her most recent novel, Exquisite Corpse, which I unfortunately had to finish because I was being paid to review it by a major magazine on a short deadline with no time to hand the book over to someone else. Damn it, though, the book very nearly made me throw up. I know that Brite is considered a really hot writer and I know that she's talented, and I know that she's particularly popular in the gay horror-fiction reading community, so perhaps I'm being small minded, but yuck! retch! (Having written the above paragraph I then went on to briefly describe some of the action in the novel, which involves SIMULTANEOUS torture, murder, necrophilia and cannibalism, but decided to censor myself for fear of sending some more tender minded soul into hysterics or a quick trip to the bathroom, hand clenched over mouth.) And I generally like horror fiction! Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:08:37 +0000 Reply-To: k.willshaw@chester.ac.uk Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: k.willshaw@CHESTER.AC.UK Subject: Contact movie in the UK Hi When I was quite a lot younger I read the book "Contact" by Carl Sagan and it was one of those books that really made a difference to the way I looked at myself. This was because the main character, Ellie, was a woman physicist. This inspired me in an awful lot of ways and I am now doing a Phd in a science subject because I felt that I could believe in my abilities and intelligence and in some ways this book helped. Anyway to get to the point of this message, does anyone know if Contact has a release date in the UK because I cant bear the thought that I am not going to be able to see this adaptation of one of the best books I remember reading as an impressionable teenager! yours waiting with bated breath to see this movie Kate PS this is my first attempt at writing to a net discussion group, having been lurking for a few days so please excuse the style! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: Poppy Z. Brite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lesley Hall wrote: >[M]y distinct impression that she was not a feminist and was not >writing from this perspective, a feeling reinforced by press interviews in >which she claimed that she was 'really' a gay man (though I believe she has >since married, something gay men are not yet generally permitted to do...). I >suppose she could claim to be writing from a 'queer'/transgressive >perspective? But I think this differs somewhat from feminism. Does a "queer" perspective really differ from a feminist one? I think Eve Sedgwick and Judith Butler might say no, since their theoretical work tends to cross through both those perspectivs. Poppy Z. Brite's novels may not be feminist per se, but could we, following Cixous, call her work *ecriture feminine*? Could it be not so much the content of what she writes as the way she writes that would make her a feminist writer? This is of course more in the French tradition of feminist writing which goes against American practicality. American feminist writers tend to be very interested in the politics of content. French feminist writers are more interested in the politics of form. That may be oversimplifying the difference though. Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: sexuality in feminist sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mike Levy wrote: > [W]hen it comes to class discussion (and also teacher evaluation forms), >Virginia gets a lot more resistance than I do. Partly, I expect, it's the >whole gender-based respect thing (female teachers often have to work harder >to gain their students' respect than do male teachers), but it also has to >do with the students not knowing quite what to make of a male teacher talking >a feminist line. Because my colleague fits their stereotyped idea of a >radical feminist, she's easier to argue with. It's funny. I get the sense that students actually are more receptive to feminist theory/criticism when it's a man who is teaching it to them. I don't know if that's true or not in all cases, but definitely when I've taught essays and stories written from a feminist perspective, the students tend to be more receptive to it than when my women colleagues have attempted to teach the same material. Maybe it's because they never realized that men could be feminists, and as you said it's easier to argue with someone who might, more obviously, fit the stereotype of a radical feminist. Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:33:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > I pretty much agree with Tanya's and other's analysis of male-female > power relationships in Contact, but with one suggestion. > The black, female presidential assistant, played by Angela Bassett, is > considerably more than just a good source of information on where to buy > a nice dress. She has considerable power and uses it as needed, for > example when Drummond (Drumlin? whatever) is trying to completely take > over the project and she, pretty much by executive fiat, states that > Ellie will continue to have day to day control over operations. I half agree here: yes, the Angela Basset character clearly does have alot power dealing with realpolitik rather than idealism. However when she makes Ellie the operations controller (with Drummond having overall administrative control) it is clear that this is a sop thrown to Ellie in exchange for her silence. Shortly afterwards Palmer comments that Ellie has been more or less given walking orders, and when Ellie looks puzzled, he adds something like "or you are at least being handed your hat".Ellie is on the out and out, and the support of the Bassett character is strictly provisonal, if not illusionary. The only suggestion that they might really share anything in common, comes in the dress scene. Apart from this, I don't think there is really any female networking going on here. The divison between politics and science that the movie postulates is too wide. > I wonder how much of Ellie's isolation from female co-workers is simply the > usual male-authored cliche on Sagan's part and how much of it is the way > things still are (or were when Sagan wrote the book in the late 1980s) > for women working in the hard sciences. Anyone here have the kind of > background to comment on this from first hand experience? > > Mike I'm sure that Sagan's depiction of Ellie's all male scientific team is realistic in terms of when Sagan wrote the novel (and probably even now) but the complete lack of women in Ellie's life (not that she precisely has one) is worthly of note: no female freinds, no relatives, nada. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have trouble considering Poppy Z. Brite a feminist author. All female characters in her books are overshadowed by the men, who are usually androgynous and can pass for women. I've read all her books ("Lost Souls", "Drawing Blood", "Wormwood", and "Exquisite Corpse"), and I've come to the conclusion that she is basically a hack. And not a very good one at that. When I first read "Lost Souls", I liked it. She can do wonderful descriptions of the South, which I suppose is her one saving grace. I then read "Drawing Blood" which I also liked. "Wormwood", her short story collection, is also good. Then I read "Exquisite Corpse". And that was just plain BAD. It wasn't the gore that got me, it was the writing, the plot, the sheer brainlessness of it. Living in New Orleans, and leaning towards the subculture known as "Gothic", I also saw that Brite was, essentially, stealing her ideas from a variety of sources. The climatic torture scene in "Exquisite Corpse" was stolen, almost image by image, from the bootleg Nine Inch Nails video for the "Broken" ep. Maybe it's because she's living in New Orleans...maybe it's because she wrote about vampires...Poppy Z. Brite is slipping into Anne Rice mode. It doesn't matter how bad it is, people will buy it and consider it wonderful. Kate Bolin who just woke up and shouldn't be discussing horror writers right now ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I'm already in the gutter....next stop, it's the drain..." Alien Sex Fiend "I Walk The Line" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:29:59 +0100 Reply-To: L Garforth Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: L Garforth Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > there is also the question of the > environment. The planet is under constant attack, for example, by large > corporations & the politicians that support them. It disturbs me that the > water & air continue to be polluted, the rainforests are being decimated, > toxic & nuclear waste threaten many communities ( I was in Eastern Europe > during the Chernobyl disaster - it was pretty terrifying), cancer has > reached epidemic proporations (especially breast cancer) etc. while we > spend billions in space. What are the effects of the space program on the > Earth's environment? What are the effects of environmental destruction on > our bodies, right here on earth? > I don't really have an opinion one way or another on the rights and wrongs of space exploration, but I suppose my position is quite close to what you outline above. Since this is a lit group, could I mention a novel by Catherine Bush _Minus Time_ that juxtaposes precisely these two issues? I guess it's sf, insofar as it seems to be a near future thing and concerns woman-in-space. It's a while since I read it, but as I remember, mother is involved in space program whilst daughter back on earth grows increasingly concerned about/active in environmental protest/industrial sabotage. I don't _think_ Bush ever explicitly discusses the potentially contradictory relationship between human societies' (and individuals') desires to explore (colonise?) other worlds and our pathetic inability to even treat our own right. I suppose rather that the structure of the novel is intended to problematise the connection. I wasn't sure what to make of it at the time - anyone else seen it? I should maybe say hello, being new to this (and in fact all!) groups? I'm not exclusively an sf reader, but I do dabble, and I do love feminst utopian/dystopian sf. I'm a research graduate at Univ. York England looking at how utopian and science fiction writing addresses environmental issues in creating future worlds. My feeling is that utopian and science fiction do better work in offering us sustainable futures than do academic/activist/policy environmentalist discourses. It seems to me (at a fairly early stage of work) that the most fleshed out and compelling green futures come out of feminist work - I'm thinking mainly of _Woman on the Edge of Time_ and Tikva in _Body of Glass_ here. Any suggestions for further reading welcome - although given the wide range of contributions to this list, I suspect I've missed loads already? Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:48 AM 7/16/97, Martha Bartter wrote: >The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the >whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group >actually like the Ik had even existed. Good God -- not another Tasaday Incident! This century is miserably rich in fancy public baloney. Anybody notice, for example, that the corpses of the newly-slain dead in Timsoara during the Bosnian War a couple of years ago were in fact a neat row of ancient, yellowed cadavers hauled out of the local medical school and morgue for the occasion? I *thought* they looked awfully odd at the time, later found confirmation in an article in, I think, the Manchester Guardian. Oy. This isn't the Information Age. It's the Age of Fakes. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:19:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:51 PM 7/15/97, Ann Wheeler wrote: >I've just seen _Contact_, and I would be interested in hearing how other >people react to the female characters in the film. While I think that >there's much to like about Ellie, the Jodie Foster character, I wish that she >had some contact with other women at some point in the film. See, there's this problem, as it is perceived: IF you actually have a major female character with the normal complement of female friends, relations, enemies, colleagues, etc., THEN she is going to complain mightily to those very female cohorts about the crap she is being force-fed by the men in power; well, what the hell *else* are they going to talk about, if they're supposed to be close to her and she's having all this trouble? This intru- sion of the real world necessarily throws the whole story off course. It becomes centered on that conflict instead of on the Great Project. (See also altering Readercon programming, which is actually not another story but the same one, of course). So it's "easier" to *show* the sexist crap happening to a woman with no significant female others in her life, and letting the omitted discussion go on among women in the audience afterward, where it won't distract and disturb men who want to see stuff about alien contact, pop. science, and Big Ideas (except feminism, socialism, etc.). Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:26:03 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 12:39 PM 7/14/97, Laura Wigod wrote: > >>Feminism is about equality for women, so, as abhorrent as a character such >>as Thatcher is, it's still progress for womankind! (sigh) I realize it's >>difficult to acknowledge that women are as capable of all the -isms as any >>man, but that's the way it is! > >Yes -- the idea, I thought, was that women should be able to be just as >big a jerk as a man and get the same kind of rewards out of it that that >man would. > >Suzy Haha! Irony noted...... This will sound a little twisted, but.......shortly after OJ Simpson murdered Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman, that woman (whose name now escaped me - Susan Mitchell?) on the East Coast (whose state now escapes me - North Carolina?) murdered her two children. Naturally, I was HORRIFIED, as anyone should be, but, in another part of my brain, I thought the timing was perfect. After the Simpson/Goldman murders, there was a lot of anti-male energy floating around - lots of articles about domestic violence and men who kill and athletes who are violent, etc. I thought the murder of those two children was a nice reminder that violence is not the sole domain of men and that women are equally capable of such vile acts. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:20:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:01 AM 7/17/97, Michael Marc Levy wrote: >(Having written the above paragraph I then went on to briefly describe >some of the action in the novel, which involves SIMULTANEOUS torture, >murder, necrophilia and cannibalism, but decided to censor myself for fear >of sending some more tender minded soul into hysterics or a quick trip to >the bathroom, hand clenched over mouth.) > >And I generally like horror fiction! R.L.Stine for "grown-ups". Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:20:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:47 PM 7/16/97, Michael Marc Levy wrote: >Yet, when it comes to class discussion (and also teacher evaluation forms), >Virginia gets a lot more resistance than I do. Partly, I expect, it's the >whole gender-based respect thing (female teachers often have to work harder >to gain their students' respect than do male teachers), Female teachers are often seen as a surrogate MOM, to be resisted, mocked, undermined, etc. at any and every opportunity (UNLESS a female teacher is really good at what she does and overwhelms this knee-jerk kid-attitude, although it is never possible to accomplish this with all the kids in a given class; somebody will always be proof against even your very best). Male teachers are seen as that (usually) distant and thus romanticized authority figure, DAD, and if they do not make themselves utterly ridicu- lous from the get-go have a somewhat better chance of being obeyed, if not respected (or, sometimes, even loved for their resemblance to certain bumbling tv DADs whom kids are taught to regard as lovable. There are few lovabel MOMs on tv, mostly silly, dangerous, horrible, or sick-and-dying pathetic ones). And no kids freely and comfortably discuss any aspects of sex with their parents or surrogates thereof. All this is full-of-holes-and-exceptions (thank gods) generalization derived from several years teach jr. high school in the mid-sixties (I loved doing it, too, and I miss those times. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:39:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: L Garforth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good to see Catherine Bush's work entering the dialogue here, not only because she's a fellow Torontonian, but also because she received a writing grant from Toronto Arts Council to work on that project. Slightly before my time, I think, but I'm the Lit. Grants Officer for Toronto Arts Council, so I take an interest. (But have you read the novel, they ask? Sadly, sheepishly, no.) -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite It must also be remembered, of course, that feminism is always relative: Brite might really be struggling hard with what to her *are* feminist issues, even though some of us might regard them as pre-101 stuff, the alphabet we had to understand before we could even read, never mind take advanced courses. Having said that, I loathe her work. Ugh, indeed. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:47:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, SMCharnas wrote: > At 8:48 AM 7/16/97, Martha Bartter wrote: > > >The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the > >whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group > >actually like the Ik had even existed. > > Good God -- not another Tasaday Incident! This century is miserably > rich in fancy public baloney. Oy. This isn't the > Information Age. It's the Age of Fakes. NH: At Readercon this weekend past, Chip Delany predicted on a panel that one big issue for this age will be Disinformation. I had a shock recently too, when I was substantially into the writing of a novel whose premise had to do with bootlegging of human body parts in third world countries. Thought I'd done my research--everything from tv documentaries through journal articles and web-surfing. Then I began to find claims that a lot of the information was bogus. Found enough information both confirming and disproving the 'facts' that finally I had no clue whom to believe. I had to abandon the premise altogether and recobble my novel out of the remaining bits. Brr. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: FW: WOC Alert 7/16/97 - CBS commentary I'll beg forgiveness for posting something decidedly off-topic, but I happened to see this commentary and was thoroughly annoyed. Now I know why!! Nicole << Last week, the so-called Independent Women's Forum scored a triple win with prominent attacks on feminism generally, and the National Organization for Women (NOW) in particular, in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the CBS Sunday Evening News. In each case, feminists were attacked for being out of touch and not representative of most women. Their case in point? NOW's opposition to the Promise Keepers. "Women want their men to keep their promises," said these cheerleaders for the right. Carefully left out of the discussion was the Promise Keepers' links to Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition, the fact that Promise Keepers rallies are training grounds for men to "take back their rightful place as head of the families, ... and make their wives submit to their leadership," and their virulent and hateful homophobia. At least The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal labeled the opinion as such, and gave the source of the opinions. But at no time did CBS identify the IWF's Laura Ingraham as anything more than a "commentator." The video accompanying the piece featured women interviewed -- not about the NOW stand against the Promise Keepers -- about the word feminism and whether men should keep their promises. And the perky blonde Ingraham could easily be mistaken for a telejournalist (as least in looks -- she is neither old nor unattractive and is properly deferential to men -- just the kind the guys in the front office like). It boggles the mind that CBS thinks it is appropriate to have Ingraham as a commentator, let alone fail to mention her bias. She sprang full blown as a media star, a creation of the right wing. And she strikes us as relevant to most women and their families as a singing pig -- the singing pig's novelty wears off once you realize that she sings off key and gets the words wrong! CBS has an obligation to let its viewers know that Ingraham represents only herself and her right wing masters. If CBS insists on carrying her novelty act -- "Look! A woman against women's rights!" -- they must inform the public of her political agenda. ACTION: Let CBS know how you feel about their attempt to validate the right wing by carrying Laura Ingraham's commentary without identifying her bias. Email CBS at <> and call your local CBS affiliate. Only you can stop the backlash! Please Post Widely! Women Leaders Online/Women Organizing for Change PO Box 11019, Washington DC 20008 Voice: 202-861-4730 Fax: 202-364-3018 E-mail: wlo@wlo.org Web: http://wlo.org To subscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: subscribe WOC firstname lastname To unsubscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: unsubscribe WOC To change your address, unsubscribe from your old address and subscribe from your new address. >> --------------------- Forwarded message: From: robinred@msn.com (Robin Rothrock) Sender: owner-netbytes@mailer.hotrock.com Reply-to: netbytes@mailer.hotrock.com To: netbytes@mailer.hotrock.com (Netbytes) Date: 97-07-17 02:32:08 EDT WOC Alert 7/16/97 - Congress to Poor Worldwide: Just Say No; CBS Says 'Welcome Home' to the Stepford Wives As Congress considers the FY 1998 Appropriations Bill, there is a move (inspired by the Christian Coalition and Concerned Women for America) to institute a global gag rule -- denying poor women the right to be told anything about abortion by their health care workers -- and, just it case that doesn't work, to totally slash all funds for international family planning. Can't you just hear their logic? It's as if they are saying, "If you can't afford birth control or more children, just say no to sex -- control yourselves, you brazen hussies!" Of course, we suspect that the need for an even cheaper labor pool for the global economy may be as important a reason as their blatant hatred of poor women. But whatever the reasons, we cannot let the House and Senate get away with this outrage. Even with international family planning available now, there is still a shocking maternal death rate -- one women dies every 3 minutes from illegal abortion. And we know that restrictions on birth control and lack of knowledge of safe, legal abortion will drive that death rate up astronomically. ACTION: Email your Member of Congress <> and your Senators <> or call them (Capital Switchboard - 202/225-3121) immediately. Urge them to vote FOR international family planning funding and AGAINST the global gag rule. Cheerleaders of the Right Win the Triple Crown Last week, the so-called Independent Women's Forum scored a triple win with prominent attacks on feminism generally, and the National Organization for Women (NOW) in particular, in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the CBS Sunday Evening News. In each case, feminists were attacked for being out of touch and not representative of most women. Their case in point? NOW's opposition to the Promise Keepers. "Women want their men to keep their promises," said these cheerleaders for the right. Carefully left out of the discussion was the Promise Keepers' links to Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition, the fact that Promise Keepers rallies are training grounds for men to "take back their rightful place as head of the families, ... and make their wives submit to their leadership," and their virulent and hateful homophobia. At least The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal labeled the opinion as such, and gave the source of the opinions. But at no time did CBS identify the IWF's Laura Ingraham as anything more than a "commentator." The video accompanying the piece featured women interviewed -- not about the NOW stand against the Promise Keepers -- about the word feminism and whether men should keep their promises. And the perky blonde Ingraham could easily be mistaken for a telejournalist (as least in looks -- she is neither old nor unattractive and is properly deferential to men -- just the kind the guys in the front office like). It boggles the mind that CBS thinks it is appropriate to have Ingraham as a commentator, let alone fail to mention her bias. She sprang full blown as a media star, a creation of the right wing. And she strikes us as relevant to most women and their families as a singing pig -- the singing pig's novelty wears off once you realize that she sings off key and gets the words wrong! CBS has an obligation to let its viewers know that Ingraham represents only herself and her right wing masters. If CBS insists on carrying her novelty act -- "Look! A woman against women's rights!" -- they must inform the public of her political agenda. ACTION: Let CBS know how you feel about their attempt to validate the right wing by carrying Laura Ingraham's commentary without identifying her bias. Email CBS at <> and call your local CBS affiliate. Only you can stop the backlash! AND NOW, A NOTE FROM OUR SPONSOR: If you have not yet sent in your donation to be part of Women Leaders Online, we really need your support. Your contribution of $100, $50, $25, $10 -- or whatever you can spare -- can help keep our financially-challenged but dedicated staff paid and our alerts flying across the Net. Although contributions to our 501(c)4 organization are not tax deductible, doing good is its own reward! So please send your contribution today to: Women Leaders Online, P.O. Box 11019, Washington, DC 20008, with your e-mail address on your check. For credit card donations, e-mail us with the best time to contact you so we can obtain the required information. Please visit our website at http://wlo.org. Thank you! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Please Post Widely! Women Leaders Online/Women Organizing for Change PO Box 11019, Washington DC 20008 Voice: 202-861-4730 Fax: 202-364-3018 E-mail: wlo@wlo.org Web: http://wlo.org To subscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: subscribe WOC firstname lastname To unsubscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: unsubscribe WOC To change your address, unsubscribe from your old address and subscribe from your new address. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:42:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women And as for the dress incident...let's say you're a really brilliant scientist who's used to running around in practical clothes in the desert. And you have some idea how to show up in a good suit to give a presentation. Then all of a sudden you're invited to this really fancy schmancy Washington cocktail party, and it's vitally important that you show up and make a good impression. Now, *wouldn't* you turn to a woman who knows about such things for a bit of advice?? As for the romantic interest--if she *hadn't* had one, everybody would be complaining about how women scientists are portrayed as frigid, unable to have human relationships. And isn't it human nature be attracted to people who are very different than we are, at least sometimes? And if nothing else, it *did* serve the plot well, and provided that nice final moment of irony in a way that people could relate to. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:16:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: The Age of Fakes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:18 7/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 8:48 AM 7/16/97, Martha Bartter wrote: > >>The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the >>whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group >>actually like the Ik had even existed. > >Good God -- not another Tasaday Incident! This century is miserably >rich in fancy public baloney. Anybody notice, for example, that the >corpses of the newly-slain dead in Timsoara during the Bosnian War a >couple of years ago were in fact a neat row of ancient, yellowed cadavers >hauled out of the local medical school and morgue for the occasion? I >*thought* they looked awfully odd at the time, later found confirmation >in an article in, I think, the Manchester Guardian. Oy. This isn't the >Information Age. It's the Age of Fakes. > >Suzy > I guess the main difference between now and, say, the late 19th C is that the fakes get more validation because the publicity is so very well done? Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:51:08 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: female/feminist teachers (was sexuality in feminist sf, formerly sex scenes) Suzy M Charnas comments >Female teachers are often seen as a surrogate MOM, to be resisted, >mocked, undermined, etc. at any and every opportunity and also, I'd hypothesise on the basis of the experience of friends of mine in the academic world, wanted to be far more nurturant above and beyond any reasonable expectation, than any man would ever be assumed to be. (Especially, my highly anecdotal evidence suggests, by women students.) As an archivist/research historians who is at a late stage/age and with much tentativeness, moving in to doing some part-time university teaching, this all rather adds to my feelings of trepidation! Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:57:09 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Thanks, Nicola, for the salutory reminder that >It must also be remembered, of course, that feminism is always >relative: Brite might really be struggling hard with what to her *are* >feminist issues, even though some of us might regard them as pre- >101 stuff, the alphabet we had to understand before we could even >read, never mind take advanced courses. I will remember that next time I read something in which the female protagonist seems to be 'one of the boys' an honorary man without a context of female friends and support, in fact with other women often positioned as rivals and enemies. As a historian whose field is partly women's history, I notice that I and other people in the field are often kinder to the contradictions of women in the past than in the present (except, of course, for the ones who are harsher towards them!) Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:40:06 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Erik Tsai suggests >Does a "queer" perspective really differ from a feminist one? I think Eve >Sedgwick and Judith Butler might say no, since their theoretical work >tends to cross through both those perspectivs. Poppy Z. Brite's novels >may not be feminist per se, but could we, following Cixous, call her work >*ecriture feminine*? Could it be not so much the content of what she >writes as the way she writes that would make her a feminist writer? This >is of course more in the French tradition of feminist writing which goes >against American practicality. American feminist writers tend to be very >interested in the politics of content. French feminist writers are more >interested in the politics of form. That may be oversimplifying the >difference though. Perhaps I should clarify: I actually found Brite's work tending towards misogyny, or at least a distinct privileging of male experience (gay or not) over female. Not just not overtly feminist. Whatever the French theories of 'ecriture feminine' (and I'm not sure PB is practising this), I should point out that politically and economically French women were well in arrears of much the rest of Western Europe for quite some time (e.g. didn't get the vote until 1945). It could be that emphasising a cultural and separate spheres mode is/was to some extent the result of a situation where other rights were unavailable or highly contested. I may be wrong! Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Erik Tsao Sent: 17 July 1997 12:08 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Poppy Z. Brite Lesley Hall wrote: >[M]y distinct impression that she was not a feminist and was not >writing from this perspective, a feeling reinforced by press interviews in >which she claimed that she was 'really' a gay man (though I believe she has >since married, something gay men are not yet generally permitted to do...). I >suppose she could claim to be writing from a 'queer'/transgressive >perspective? But I think this differs somewhat from feminism. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:58:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- In a message dated 97-07-17 20:00:34 EDT, Kate wrote: << I have trouble considering Poppy Z. Brite a feminist author. All female characters in her books are overshadowed by the men, who are usually androgynous and can pass for women.>> Oh, believe me, I have trouble, too. What I was saying was that if she *considers* herself a feminist (and I don't know if she does or not, but I've met her and I think it would surprise her that others thought she was anti-feminist [hope that twisted construction makes sense to everyone]), then she *is*--by her definition, anyway. Maybe she genuinely believes her work is liberating for women in some way. But maybe she just doesn't give a shit. I don't know. I was just trying to make the point that feminism means different things to different people. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:50:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Charlotte Perkins Gilman fans? In-Reply-To: <970717205817_-558137006@emout06.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those who might be interested: The July 7 issue of Publishers Weekly lists Gilman's With Her in Ourland, a sequel to Herland, as due out from Greenwood ($55 ISBN 0-313-27614-5; pb $15.95 0-275-96077-3) in August. The review is generally positive, though the reviewer makes a point of Gilman's anti-semitism. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. The so-called masters (like Stephen King, Peter Straub, Whitley Streiber, etc.) have broken, and re-set the conventions for the genre. The question is, what do women horror writers, who are obviously dealing with the weighty influences of the predecessors and contemporaries (most of whom are male) and the vicissitudes of their audience, do? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:01:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Animal Farm sequel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I saw that somebody mentioned Animal Farm in a message, I thought I'd recommend *Anarchist Farm* by Jane Doe (it was written by a female deer ;-) ). It was published last year by III Publishing, a small press with some excellent SF and fiction titles. The author's name is a pseudonym, but I found out that the author is a woman when I saw her speaking at the San Francisco Anarchist Book Fair last March. *Anarchist Farm* is pretty funny and insightful. I would say that one could even call it a young adult book. The story revolves around a farm that is a fairly near the farm that was the setting for Animal Farm. The nice owner of the farm dies, so the animals have to decide what to do, so they decide to form an anarchist collective. The story is told from the point of view of a male pig leader who defects from Animal Farm. The animals also have interactions with some forest animals and their human friends, called "The Forest Protectors," which are very like Earth First! The farm eventually faces a threat when other humans come to "dispose" of the farm. I'm sorry that I don't have the contact information for III publishing with me. They publish two other novels which I really liked: *Last Days of Christ the Vampire* by J.G. Eccarius which is about a bunch of punk atheist kids who discover that Christianity is being controlled by vampires, and *A.D.* by Saab Loften, which concerns a future America that is half-controlled by the Nation of Islam. The protagonist, a NOI member in Chicago, becomes radicalized, but before he can do anything, is cryogenically frozen by a mad scientist and then wakes up centuries later to discover an anarchist utopia with time travel. Yeah, it sounds pretty weird, but it was one of the more fascinating SF novels I've read recently. Chuck0 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:34:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Animal Farm sequel In-Reply-To: <0007F29B.1205@aaas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If III Publishing are the same people who publish Saab Lofton, I believe I have their address at home; I have one of his books. I'll check into it when I get home (I'm at work right now), and let any interested people know. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:31:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tamara K. Shaw" Organization: Silverhaven Productions Subject: Re: Animal Farm sequel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CMUNSON wrote: > > Since I saw that somebody mentioned Animal Farm in a message, I thought I'd > recommend *Anarchist Farm* by Jane Doe (it was written by a female deer ;-) > ). It was published last year by III Publishing, a small press with some > excellent SF and fiction titles. I have both "Anarchist Farm" and "The Last Days of Christ The Vampire," from this company. I agree that "Anarchist Farm" is an excellent book. The address for III Publishing is: P.O. Box 1581 Gualala, CA 95445 Blessings, Lilith Silverhair tshaw@toolcity.net http://members.tripod.com/~Lilith_Silverhair/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NESchaadt Subject: Is this a genre? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've just finished two books, _Glimmering_ by Elizabeth Hand and _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ by Sheri Tepper that made me think (understatement of the year--I cried as I finished the Tepper) about feminist speculative, science and utopian fiction. As both deal with the end of the millenia, is there a feminist millenial (is this a word?) sciece fiction? Do feminist writers have a unique view of the year 2000? Are there other titles you -collective- can recommend? Many thanks, NS Nancy E. Schaadt phone: 214 943 4347 fax: 214 946 7887 e-m: nschaadt@txcc.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Is this a genre? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718100300.006a1334@mail.txcc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think Kit Reed's LITTLE SISTERS OF THE APOCALYPSE might also fall there although I haven't read it (so I'm really stepping out on a limb here). On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, NESchaadt wrote: > I've just finished two books, _Glimmering_ by Elizabeth Hand and _Gibbon's > Decline and Fall_ by Sheri Tepper that made me think (understatement of the > year--I cried as I finished the Tepper) about feminist speculative, science > and utopian fiction. As both deal with the end of the millenia, is there a > feminist millenial (is this a word?) sciece fiction? Do feminist writers > have a unique view of the year 2000? Are there other titles you > -collective- can recommend? > Many thanks, > NS > > Nancy E. Schaadt > phone: 214 943 4347 > fax: 214 946 7887 > e-m: nschaadt@txcc.net > Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: A question about the J. Russ book In-Reply-To: from "Laura Quilter" at Jul 18, 97 10:30:39 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi - Could somebody please give me the title again for the new Joanna Russ non-fiction/social theory book that is supposedly coming out soon? I read about it here on the list and checked my local bookstore last night for a release date and the clerk could only give me a blank stare and a barely intelligible response. Thanks Tasia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:25:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:26 AM 7/18/97, Erik Tsao wrote: >Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that >people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror >fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story was. In fact, there is a paragraph or two (about gobbling a boy who has been tormenting my heroine at school) and that's all; it I got the message very clearly that pages and pages of gratuitous gore and flying liver from King, Barker, McCammon et al, you name him, are all in a day's work (well, boys are made from snips and snails etc., right, so what do you expect?) , but a few sentences of carnage from a female author are shocking beyond words because women are sugar and spice and everything nice. Which was in part, I think, what the anthology editor, Lisa Tuttle, meant to explore/expose/explode, of course; and I can hardly complain that the few words I did use, which I chose most carefully for maximum effect, had that effect beyond my wildest dreams. But it bothered me that my very slight outbreak of carnography raised such a reaction, and because of that experience I don't like to see a woman writer criticized for "just doing what the boys do" as if she had no *right* to do it (and make a mint doing it) if she wants to. Of course on this list we are talking about something else: doing what the boys do in order to get the exact same woman-disdaining effect that powers so much of the boys' horror, as if sanc- tioning that nasty misogyny (which maybe she intends to do -- a sort of "I'm not a feminist AND I write whatever pernicious crap I damned please" atti- tude -- and maybe not). And as a general criticism, I dislike sloppy writ- ing and overwritten shock-schlock on principle. So I stand by my remark that this is R.L. Stine for "adults", which applies equally plenty of other writers, and I don't like her work. But I want to distinguish that opinion very clearly from not accepting carnography from women authors under any circumstances. Like every other tool, it all depends on the uses you put it to. I don't like her uses. But as I said, the point is *also* for a woman to be "allowed" to make as much of a jerk of herself as a man and pull down the same rewards that he does. It's this baby-boy-powered culture that sucks. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:20:08 -0400 Reply-To: Jill Gillham Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <970705132107_714262057@emout06.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Hope Cascio wrote: > us about this list. I've loved science fiction since (and this is embarassing > to me now!) my best friend in seventh grade turned me on to... > Piers Anthony. I read all of the Apprentice Adept books that were out at the You aren't alone on that one actually. I got started on sf/fantasy when a freind at summer camp loaned me "Blue Adept" when I was 10. It was just kind of a revelation that there was something other than the typical juvenile fiction out there I wound up going back and working my way through the branch library's sf section and finding the really good stuff. As far as who I am, I'm a transplanted "Damnyankee" living in Tennessee (the Western part, where there isn't even any good scenery to go with the intolerance and bigotry) cause my husband got a tenure track art job at UT-Martin. Got a BA in Economics and a Masters in Public Policy, neither of which has proven to be very useful in getting a job down here, so I'm going back to school to get a computer science degree on the logic that if you're going to be overqualified to do something, you moght as well be really overqualified. Dependants: one cat, none human. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org jillmari@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ferndock2 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GG d s+ a-- C+++ U P+ L E--- W++ N+++ K+ w--- O M+ V PS++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+++ X R tv+ b++++ DI+++ D--- G e+++ h--- r+++ x+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:10:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, SMCharnas wrote: > writers, and I don't like her work. But I want to distinguish that opinion > very clearly from not accepting carnography from women authors under any > circumstances. Like every other tool, it all depends on the uses you put > it to. I don't like her uses. > > Suzy > "Every tool is a weapon, if you hold it right." ani difranco words to live by, robin. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) In-Reply-To: from "SMCharnas" at Jul 18, 97 11:25:57 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > At 7:26 AM 7/18/97, Erik Tsao wrote: > >Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that > >people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror > >fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. > > I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember > my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- > ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- > ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story > was. In fact, there is a paragraph or two (about gobbling a boy who has > been tormenting my heroine at school) and that's all; it I got the message > very clearly that pages and pages of gratuitous gore and flying liver from > King, Barker, McCammon et al, you name him, are all in a day's work (well, > boys are made from snips and snails etc., right, so what do you expect?) , > but a few sentences of carnage from a female author are shocking beyond > words because women are sugar and spice and everything nice. > Hey - Was this story also anthologized in a collection of science fiction and essays on science fiction meant to be used at the college level as a teaching text? If so, I read it and enjoyed it and must have missed some of the carnage and gore thought to be so shocking. (I liked the story by the way). I personally could take or leave Poppy Brite (for reasons other than her graphic depictions of sex and or violence) but found her work no more shocking or incidentally misogynist than say that of Clive Barker - who takes the sex=death correlation to an all new high. I think that you are quite right is positing that these things have drawn more criticism because they were written by women. > > It's this baby-boy-powered culture that sucks. > > Suzy > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:22:00 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: A question about the J. Russ book -Reply Here's all the pertinent data on that new Joanna Russ book. What Are We Fighting for : Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism by Joanna Russ Hardcover, 560 pages Published by St Martins Pr (Trade) Publication date: September 1, 1997 ISBN: 0312151985 List: $27.95 Reviews and Commentary for What Are We Fighting for : Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism >From Kirkus Reviews, 06/15/97: This ungainly book constitutes Russ's personal canon of classic radical feminist ideas of the 1970s and '80s that are most worth rescuing from small-press and pamphleteering obscurity for use as a basis for recharging the women's movement. Best known as a Nebula Award winning author of science fiction (notably The Female Man, not reviewed), Russ is also a pioneering teacher in women's studies and a feminist critic (How to Suppress Women's Writing, 1983). She is totally exasperated by the development of an academic feminism that has lured too many of her students into following a mainstream careerist model rather than dedicate themselves as rebel outsiders to the pursuit of liberating truth. The perspectives of socialist feminism in early Barbara Ehrenreich and Ann Oakley, the insights of lesbian feminists like Cherie Moraga and Adrienne Rich, and the righteous oppositional stance of women of color theorists like Barbara Smith and Gloria Joseph are what Russ reclaims and seeks to propagate. She criticizes the emphasis on the special psychology of women by theorists like Dorothy Dinnerstein, Nancy Chodorow, and Carol Gilligan for displacing our focus from the psychology of oppression. Her energetic exploration of the complex, paradoxical ways that the interdependent systems of capitalism and patriarchy oppress women and benefit men has its compelling moments. But as Russ spins her web of ideas, she is given to asides, digressions, and burying interesting insights in long footnotes and supplementary chapters mischieviously labeled ``Leftovers.'' There's a lack of pretension and a spirited commitment here that's appealing, but the self-indulgent presentation isn't likely to make new converts. Still, hardy veterans of the feminist wars may find this useful as a refresher course in the bolder feminist ideas of the '70s and '80s and will be moved not only to murmur ``Right on, sister,'' but also to an occasional hoot. -- Copyright #1997, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. Synopsis: A study of the future of feminism calls for a return to the radical roots of feminism's direct political struggle during the 1960s and early 1970s and a move away from the de-politicized focus on women's psychology and personal relations of today. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:01:19 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: A question about the J. Russ book The book is 'What Are We Fighting for : Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism', and amazon.com are recording orders for when it comes out (September I think) Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:15:35 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) At 7:26 AM 7/18/97, Erik Tsao wrote: >Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that >people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror >fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. To dislike a particular writer is not to dismiss an entire genre (not that I'm any great fan of horror.) And, there is a long, though possibly rather neglected, tradition of women's horror writing (going back to the ghost stories of the C19th): in fact, a case could be made that it's been one of those fields which women created, and men then moved in on and made their own. (e.g agriculture (joke?)) and S M Charnas replied [selected text] >I don't like to see a woman writer criticized for "just doing what the boys >do" as if she had no *right* to do it (and make a mint doing it) if she >wants to. >Of course on this list we are talking about something else: doing what >the boys do in order to get the exact same woman-disdaining effect that >powers so much of the boys' horror, as if sanctioning that nasty >misogyny (which maybe she intends to do -- a sort of "I'm >not a feminist AND I write whatever pernicious crap I damned please" >attitude -- and maybe not). And maybe she thinks it's everso feminist (or post-feminist) to be transgressive: I remember reading an essay (? some years ago in, I think, SF Eye) in which the (female) author was arguing that we had to get away from the goody-goody heroine archetype: however, she seemed to be arguing that we should just go for its reverse, as it were Kali instead of the Virgin Mary. Which to me was just buying into a sets of stereotypes with a long long history, not particularly liberatory/empowering to women, and not as creatively productive as depicting women as interesting human beings with both strengths and flaws. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:43:49 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: A question about the J. Russ book -Reply Doh! I forgot to mention that I got the information about Russ's "What Are We Fighting for: Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism" from Amazon Books (www.amazon.com). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: elizabeth hand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a friend. Thoughts on the book? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: A question about the J. Russ book -Reply In-Reply-To: from "Freddie Baer" at Jul 18, 97 12:43:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Freddy - I wish it was going to be out in time for me to go on vacation, but we cant have everything. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:52:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: women horror writers (warning: spoiler!) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, SMCharnas wrote: > I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember > my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- > ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- > ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story > was. NH: "Boobs!" I read that story of yours, in _Women Who Run With the Werewolves;_ my co-Clarionista Michael Lucas had his first (I think) published tale in that antho. I remember being shocked by "Boobs," enough that I had to re-read it a couple of times to think about my reaction ;). It was the finality of Kelsey's actions that shocked me more than the brief violence or the gore (though I still do feel sorry for the poor tame doggy-dinners). I enjoyed being shocked into thinking. From what I understand of wolves, they have very clear behavioural codes that signal "I don't want this tension between us to escalate into violence, so I will back down now." Whereas Billy in the story felt he had the right to keep pushing and pushing Kelsey to see how much he could get away with. Well, he found out, and maybe it was unfair, because he didn't know he was dealing with a wolf, not a well-indoctrinated girl, but shit, life's like that. And come to think of it, he'd had a few signals that Kelsey was one to retaliate when provoked. Wolves come off as the more social animals, because they pick their battles for good reasons, not for fun. I have only tried to read one of Poppy Z. Brite's novels, and wasn't compelled enough by it to finish it. So I'm in no position to discuss the merits of her writing. But on general principle, I'm inclined to think that if an artist starts from a position that produces strong reactions in people, that's often not a bad beginning place. I gather from reading other people's opinions on this list that she comes off as being extreme for extremity's sake. Now, *that* I don't find interesting, but maybe she'll progress from there. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: elizabeth hand In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 02:45 PM 7/18/97 -0500, Erik Tsao wrote: >Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by >Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a >friend. Thoughts on the book? I believe you mean _Waking the Moon_. I read it last summer and was quite disappointed. I absolutely loved Hand's earlier novel _Winterlong_, and was hoping for something as good -- instead I found a heavy-handed (and much too lengthy) saga whose earthshaking insight was that women can be really evil. The faces of Kali, Othiym, whatever -- how new is it to symbolize women as either devourers or saints? I kept hoping that she would attempt to stretch the boundaries of gender definitions and portray something new, but my persistence was not rewarded. Frankly, I was amazed that this novel won the Tiptree award. Anyone have insight as to why? Or can anyone show me how I'm wrong in my reading of the novel? -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time, was re:Mars/social justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 09:06 AM 7/16/97 +0100, Joan Haran wrote: >I must confess, the "kenners" were something I didn't think very clearly >about. I was too focussed on how the "brooder" might fit into their >society, and the idea that to be equal women had to give up the _power_ to >give birth naturally. Now that we all know about how IVF works, I would >question whether the brooder would fit. "Harvesting" the raw materials >required to create babies outside the womb does not seem to me to be the >choice that would be made by radicals wresting the control of science from >the oppressors. What do you think, Janice? Yes, I should have mentioned the brooder as well. The idea that the "power" to conceive and bear children necessarily creates an imbalance between the sexes is not very convincing to me. It seems akin to the belief that since men on average have a higher percentage of muscle mass than women they will always hold the "power" of physical force over women. Power in either case is largely a matter of perception and social convention. It might have been more plausible to envision a society whose views on childbearing were radically transformed than to come up with a technological fix to the whole issue (which is fraught with its own "power" issues, such as who decides which genes to mix, and what happens if a person doesn't want to be sterilized, etc.). -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:24:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: patricia johnston Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Seems to be a lot of yays/nays re Poppy`s writing. If someone has an e-mail address for her, perhaps she (Poppy) could join the list and join the discussion. Also has anyone read Gate To Women`s Country by Tepper, and what are your thoughts. Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:53:51 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Transgressive Fiction IIRC, the original question was something like, "Why did the students react differently to the homoerotic elements in Poppy Z. Brite than to those in Samuel Delaney?" I would suggest that the main reasons may be found in the books themselves. 1)Brite gets much more explicit in her sex scenes than Delaney does in the Neveryona books (The Delaney of _Hogg_ is a different matter). 2)Brite's writing often falls into the category of splatterpunk aka deathporn. For example, her most recent book, _Exquisite Corpse_ combines a gay love story set in New Orleans with a loving reimagining of the crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer. This genre has some passionate fans, but a lot of people don't care for it. 3)Delaney is by far the better writer (I don't think this is a controversial opinion, but I'm sure I'll be proven wrong.) His worlds are more real, his stories are more serious, and I care about his characters far more. I will follow his narrative almost anywhere, even through hundreds of plotless pages of _Dhalgren_ and the rapes and near-rapes that take place in that book. I think these three aspects of the two books explain the difference in reaction without much reference to the gender of the author (in fact, I think Brite got some slack for being a female in the publication of _Corpse_. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:03:27 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Birth Control Books To contribute to the fertility discussion -- I think it is important to distinguish between malnutrition and starvation. Starvation is caused by inadequate caloric intake, and that is what causes anorexics, Olympic gymnasts, famine victims, etc. to stop having periods (or to never get them, if they are adolescents. This is why some adult female gymnasts have the bodies of prepubescent girls.) Malnutrition, on the other hand, is caused by a diet which lacks one or more essential nutrients. It is possible to have malnutrition with excessive caloric intake if you eat a lot of junk food, for example. The tea and toast diet that Marina Yereshenko mentions being common in Tajikistan probably has enough calories to maintain fertility but is seriously lacking in protein, vitamins and minerals. Women on such a diet who have babies will deplete their own body stores to supply the fetus, and then will deplete them further through breastfeeding. A steady chain of pregancies under those conditions is draining and dangerous to the mother. The baby also has problems as soon as it is weaned; there is an African disease called "kwashiorkor", which means "the disease the first baby gets when the second baby is born." This is the disease that causes the bulging abdomens in the rail-thin children in photos from the Ethiopian famine back in the 80's. Kwashiorkor is caused by protein deficiency, resulting from the child switching from high-protein milk to an extremely low-protein grain diet. Regarding science fiction: Charles Oberndorf's _Foragers_ focuses on a humanoid race similar to men, but much less social. In primate terms, they are like orangutans while humans are more like bonobo chimpanzees. One of the major conflicts of the book is a pregnant humanoid who knows she is expecting twins and is trying to get someone to adopt her second child, as she knows she will be unable to raise two babies on her own. _Foragers_ is a difficult but very rewarding book, and I've been meaning to bring it up for some time. Has anyone else read it? >From: MARINA YERESHENKO >Subject: Re: Birth Control Books > >Anny, >I'm afraid that the "natural birth control" (i.e. that semi-starved women >are not fertile) is overestimated. In the place I came from (Tajikistan, >in Asia) majority of women (especially in remote villages) have babies as >often as every nine months, since they are married and until the menapause >(that is if they live through it). > >First reason is that Muslim religion prohibits birth control. Second, a >couple would not even try to use it,if they do not have a son yet. Girls >are not considered worth anything, so if a family has eight daughters, the >woman ill still be forced to have babies until she has a boy. The infant> >mortality is one of the highest in the world, so only 7-8 children survive, >but that's enough to keep the family at such poverty level, that the only >food they can afford is bread and tea -- for years. Which does not seem to >prevent more pregnancies. > >What I am saying, it would probably save a lot of >lives, if women would not have children until they are well-nourished, >but unfortunately, it's not the case. Of course, this is not a scientific >fact, just something I had a chance to witness for the first 20 years of >my life. > >Marina [snip] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:03:16 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Mars and social justice Just a few thoughts on the Pathfinder discussion, since I didn't get a chance to write anything about it all week. I was frankly surprised at how negative people were about the space program -- I hope there are a lot of listmembers out there who are more positive about space exploration but less outspoken. Just a couple thoughts: 1)the Pathfinder mission cost about the same as _Waterworld_ to make. Think about it. 2)If we eliminate space exploration and space science, who knows what future technologies we will be throwing away? People may say that space isn't worthwhile, but they're just guessing. 3)space exploration is humanity's only chance for opening up the closed system of Earth and Sun. If we are confined to Earth's resources, we are forced to choose between glaring injustice and poverty for everybody. 4)Mars was remarkably Earthlike 4 billion years ago; there was a thick atmosphere and liquid oceans. Now Mars is an airless icy desert. Since we are messing around with our own planet's environment, it might be a good idea to figure out what went wrong on our sister planet. 5)The thrill of discovery seems to me to be a human trait, not a "masculist" one. Over the 4th of July weekend, a substantial proportion of the world was watching the news from Mars. (Although probably not as many as watched the OJ trial verdict) To address what some other listmember said: >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:10:04 -0600 >From: Holly Yasui >Subject: Re: Mars/social justice >I too am concerned about "a continuation of the colonizing mentality and >activity that resulted in the theft of land and genocide of the native >peoples of the Americas." I find it interesting that "first contact" >masculist sf usually has some kind of mindless War of the Worlds >confrontation in which the aliens are simply the dreaded "Other" (the only >good alien is a dead alien). Whereas the feminist version (especially >Butler) conveys complex possibilities that value the alien's (Other's) >individual personality and culture. I am not sure what people mean by this. The Moon is a lifeless rock, the asteroids are rocks, Mars may have underground puddles of bacteria, Europa is the only body in the solar system other than Earth that *might* support complex life. Humanity's opportunities for genocide seem to be sharply limited. Are you opposed to any sort of exploration, or to tapping natural resources outside of Earth, or just to human colonization of space? Also, doesn't anyone remember that H.G. Wells' _War of the Worlds_ was a scathing commentary on colonialism? >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:43:03 -0400 >From: CMUNSON >Subject: Re: Mars/social justice >As much as I am interested in SF, and utopian feminist fiction, and Babylon >5, I have serious reservations about the manned (staffed?) space program. I >like things like satellites and the recent Mars probe, but I seriously >question sending people into space when we can't solve our problems down >here. BTW, I think you all should become familiar with the controversy >surrounding the upcoming Cassini Mission--if that fails lots of people >could die. How seriously do you all take those Utopias, anyway? I find it hard to imagine that we will ever "solve our problems" here on Earth. Waiting to explore space until everything is perfect on Earth seems a little like waiting to have kids until everything in your life is completely under control. Also, no one seems to even consider that the space program might help the wretched of the Earth -- not just in technological spinoffs, but in the vast natural resources in space (metals, ice, solar power...). >Anyway, if you look at the NASA budget by itself it doesn't look like much, >so we have to ask ourselves How are they doing all these space things on a >pittance? >The answer? >Military spending. >While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly >from the huge miltary/industrial complex. It uses some facilities that are >military, or were developed by the military. It employs pilots who were >trained in the military. It benefits from research conducted in >universities which are heavily funded by the military, especially in the >areas of science (maybe the reason why our libraries are so underfunded is >that they produce little of use to the military). I agree with your basic point, but most of your criticisms of NASA could be leveled just as well at the Internet! After 45 years of a Cold War an awful lot of society's institutions have become entwined with the military. >Janice E. Dawley said: >Paul Feyerabend, an outspoken critic of the scientific establishment, >said (in _Science in a Free Society_) re: the US moon trip of 1969: >"Of course, our well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries are liable to >burst with excitement over events such as the moonshots, the double helix, >non-equilibrium thermodynamics. But let us look at the matter from a >different point of view, and it becomes a ridiculous exercise in futility. >It needed billions of dollars, thousands of well-trained assistants, years >of hard work to enable some inarticulate and rather limited contemporary to >perform a few graceless hops in a place nobody in his right mind would >think of visiting - a dried out, airless, hot stone." >He overstates it a bit, but in essence I have to agree with him. [snip] Without even getting into the arrogance of Feyerabend's riff about "well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries," I find this quote amazing coming from someone on this list... I always thought one of the brilliant things about Science Fiction as opposed to mainstream literature was that S.F. noticed that technology actually effects everyday life. To be completely uninterested in the moonshots, DNA (i.e. the secret of life) and thermodynamics (i.e. how the universe works) seems to me to speak of either lack of education, lack of imagination, or sheer bloodyminded Luddism. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Okay, out of the car, Helmut" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lesley Hall wrote: >I remember reading an essay (? some years ago in, I think, SF >Eye) in which the (female) author was arguing that we had to get away from the >goody-goody heroine archetype: however, she seemed to be arguing that we >should just go for its reverse, as it were Kali instead of the Virgin Mary. >Which to me was just buying into a sets of stereotypes with a long long >history, not particularly liberatory/empowering to women, and not as >creatively productive as depicting women as interesting human beings with both >strengths and flaws. You're probably right about the reversal. Is Brite a misogynist or is she using misogynist images for a particular reason? For example, the whole horrific descriptions of vampire births in _Lost Souls_ could be read as a comment on the violent exploitation of women's bodies by men. Vampire men, in other words, are just as guilty of exploiting (and destroying) the females of their species for the sole purpose of reproduction as human men are. Destruction is mean here in both a literal and a figural sense. Think of how many human women are left to fend for themselves by a boyfriend, or husband who doesn't want to deal with the responsibility of a child. Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Janice Dawley wrote: >I believe you mean _Waking the Moon_. I read it last summer and was quite >disappointed. I absolutely loved Hand's earlier novel _Winterlong_, and was >hoping for something as good -- instead I found a heavy-handed (and much >too lengthy) saga whose earthshaking insight was that women can be really >evil. The faces of Kali, Othiym, whatever -- how new is it to symbolize >women as either devourers or saints? I kept hoping that she would attempt >to stretch the boundaries of gender definitions and portray something new, >but my persistence was not rewarded. Frankly, I was amazed that this novel >won the Tiptree award. Anyone have insight as to why? Or can anyone show me >how I'm wrong in my reading of the novel? Actually, I felt that none of the characters (female or male) were truly evil. In some instances I actually felt for the so-called "evil" characters. The question is were the Benandanti the villains in this novel, or were the followers of Othiym? Or was it just a titanic power struggle between two villains, neither of which deserved to win? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:25:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Suzy, I just wanted to say that I read your story, "Boobs", in the anthology _Women Who Run With The Werewolves_, and I thought it was great. It was a real inspiration to me. Have you written anything else on werewolves? Do you have any recomendations on work by other writers. I've been fantasizing about making a werewolf film for a long time. Kym Ragusa > >I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember >my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- >ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- >ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story >was. In fact, there is a paragraph or two (about gobbling a boy who has >been tormenting my heroine at school) and that's all; it I got the message >very clearly that pages and pages of gratuitous gore and flying liver from >King, Barker, McCammon et al, you name him, are all in a day's work (well, >boys are made from snips and snails etc., right, so what do you expect?) , >but a few sentences of carnage from a female author are shocking beyond >words because women are sugar and spice and everything nice. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:51:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry if this is a discussion that's died down already, but I was having some trouble sending to the list... (thanks, Laura, for fixing it!) On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > What I'd like to take issue with is the romantic aspect of the movie, > which, alongside the change in Ellie's perception of religious people > (from lunatic and hostile to warm and supportive), seemed to me to be > sentimental, and a "soft sell" to a cinema audience that wouldn't find > a Susan Calvin (or a very probably queer Jodie Foster) sympathetic. I haven't read the book, but from what I've heard, the Joss-Arroway romantic thing happens there as well, so it's not just to sell to a cinema audience or to counter rumors of Foster being a lesbian (oh, that would be happy, though, if she were). But that's not your real point, I think. > The > protective arm of the strong but tender male character as Ellie stumbles > out of the halls of the inquiry seemed a walking cliche and an indication > that Ellie alone is not quite up to the demands of public life. I felt that the relationship came out of nowhere, but I don't think it was detrimental to her character. Her trip, and the reaction to it, shook the very core assumptions that she'd based her life on--mainly, that you can prove -everything-. I wouldn't have found it believable if they had presented her as being able to stand completely alone through that kind of an experience. Pluswhich, Ellie and Palmer are good counterpoints to each other, and I think that made the movie just a little richer. -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why do we keep shrieking when we mean soft things, we should be whispering all the time . . . Because I'm afraid of the dark without you close to me." --100,000 Fireflies ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:52:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > I wonder how much of Ellie's isolation from female co-workers is simply the > usual male-authored cliche on Sagan's part and how much of it is the way > things still are (or were when Sagan wrote the book in the late 1980s) > for women working in the hard sciences. Anyone here have the kind of > background to comment on this from first hand experience? Well, Sagan co-authored the book (and movie) with his wife, who I believe has first-hand experience in the field. So the isolation is not just a male-author cliche. Also, while I can't speak to what it's like at NASA, I do know that women are still very much isolated in a lot of sciences. One of my housemates is in a computer-science research group, and their advisor/leader is a woman, but she's the only one on the team and doesn't have any female colleagues outside of the research team. A friend of mine is doing physics research and if there are any other women in her building, she's unaware of their existence. Maybe the situation is better when you get out of academia? -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Using lynx is like wearing jeans without underwear--nothing is supported, and it chafes." --The Boys ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:27:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: elizabeth hand In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Erik Tsao wrote: > Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by > Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a > friend. Thoughts on the book? > "Waking the Moon". And I loved it. Very lush, very detailed, and just amazing to read. Maybe it's because I'm an Anthropology and Religious Traditions of the West major, but I loved it. All these exquisite elements coming together deliciously. And a main character that was utterly fascinating. I've tried to read "The Glimmering", another novel of hers, but I just couldn't get into it... Kate Bolin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:26:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: Contact I saw _Contact_ on Wednesday. I've since thought about it & discussed my thoughts with the scientist who attended the film with me. I have serious reservations about its representation of science vis-a-vis religion, which requires a slightly different way of talking about the film than I've yet seen here. & I believe certain problems with Arroway's characterization are implicated in these problems. ******************************************************************************Warning: my discussion is a definite spoiler. ****************************************************************************** First, let me say what I *like* about this film. I adored the opening sequence. It captured for me, visually, a certain breathless wonder one finds more often looking at the natural world(s) than in reading science fiction (though certain sf writers & readers do like to *talk* about "wonder" a lot!). It was a pleasure to me to see the depiction of a forceful, assertive woman as scientist & protagonist who makes productive things happen. I liked seeing an sf film that wasn't, for a change, an epic of nonstop adventure/violence. & finally, I got a lot of pleasure from the wormhole sequence & Arroway's meeting with the alien on the alien world. That said, I believe the problems some list members are having with the characterization of Arroway has to do with the film maker's desire to make science *epistemologically* analagous to religion. My argument is complicated, & contains two parts. First, characterization: it's important that Arroway not be taken for a full character at all, but as an icon of the driven, passionate scientist. There is no other way to regard the inconsistency in the characterization that allows us to make sense of it. The film gives us her childhood only up to age 9, & attempts to explain her passion for the SETI project as an effect of her relationship with her father & her bereavement. What it does *not* explain (or attempt to explain) is how she developed from that nine-year-old girl into an adult woman who is easily assertive, easily able to express anger, fully confident in her own capabilities & intellect, & able to ignore authority figures & power structures as irrelevant obstacles. Boys are often raised to become adults with such attitudes & psychological capacities. It's part of their standard socialization. But for a girl to become such an adult requires at least one of two things: either she is nurtured along the way, & not punished (but encouraged) for being headstrong & self-assertive (& all institutions are against this: even parents determined not to let their daughters be tarred with the good-girl/bad-girl designation that is used against girl children as soon as they enter to school as a means of behavior control find this almost impossible to achieve); OR as a young woman she undergoes a long struggle to achieve this capacity, in which case her relationship with authority is likely to be seriously conflicted for a long time to come. We know the latter can't have been the case for Arroway, since authority figures mean nothing to her, & their evaluations of her don't interest her, except insofar as they might be useful for helping her to achieve the wherewithal to pursue her research. But we also know the former can't be the case, because she has absolutely no family ties, no family friends, no MENTORS. Her life as a character stops at age 9 (with her feeling guilty, by the bye, for her father's death-- something any child would need a helpful nurturing adult to overcome), & picks up with her getting her PhD from Stanford (apparently without any ties to a mentor there). In other words, Eleanor Arroway is not depicting a real person, but an icon of the self-made scientist who never had a lick of help or support or encouragement that wasn't self-generated. (Which supports the mythology that anyone could do anything without any kind of help or benign negligence along the way.) Which is okay-- only we need to understand that that's the case when we talk about her character in the film. As an icon, the film maker needed to make her sympathetic to the audience (lest they see her as simply monomaniacal-- which of course she is), so that the audience will sympathize with her quest. The manipulative emotional scenes of her father's death & the relationship with Palmer achieve this. These are the only affective relationship she has. Otherwise, she is a total affective blank. (But then she's an icon, not a character.) I realize Sagan made the progagonist female in his book. But this femaleness allows the film-maker to portray her as not quite all there when she's testifying in the jerk politician's conspiracy hearings. Suddenly she is no longer a trained scientist able to marshall the obvious points. Rather, she's an emotional, inarticulate WOMAN. She's actually browbeaten with the greatest ease into saying that it was "possible" that Haddon could have faked the whole thing. Now anyone paying attention would KNOW that scientifically speaking it was NOT possible to have faked it. The transmission was checked from several positions-- this being the very first thing that Arroway did when she discovered the transmission. No satellite could have generated such a transmission. A reminder of this fact would have been the immediate response that a scientist like Arroway would have made to the jerk politician's disingenuous question. Second, no scientist would have confused ontological with epistemological "faith." Or *optimism* with "faith." Scientists are often highly *optimistic* about the truth of their conjectures. But they *don't* discuss their conjectures' validity in terms of *faith*. They're perfectly capable of "believing in" their conjectures (read: being optimistic about the validity of their conjectures) while reserving judgment until definitive evidence comes in. Further, the film-maker deliberately conflated this optimism with what any sf reader will recognize as "wonder." (Which the film-maker wants to claim is the same thing as believing in God, I guess.) Second, the federal govt's depicted attitude toward the project of building the alien technology was absurd, as was the idea that real scientists faced with such schematic plans wouldn't be determined to understand *everything* involved. If such schematic plans came into the hands of the federal govt, they would damned sure "reverse engineer" them. There would have been an enormous team of physicists put to work on them. Second, they would have done all sorts of runs & experiments before fully implementing it-- running it at 20%, say, again & again, to determine exactly what was physically & theoretically happening as they "powered" the thing up. That being so, Arroway should have been able to put forth theoretical reasons for arguing that she really did travel to another world in that split second. (& even if they *hadn't* reverse-engineered, there would have been plenty of theoretical physicists she could have called on to help her construct a theory for how her trip could have happened.) & finally, the idea of equating the use of Occam's razor to talk about epistemology on the one hand & ontology on the other is a downright manipulative category error. & using the protagonists' interactions with children at the end of the film was a particularly pernicious way of enforcing it. I haven't read Sagan's book, but it's hard for me to believe a scientist would be party to this kind of disingenuous, manipulative argument. Timmi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 21:30:32 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: elizabeth hand 'Waking the Moon' I read Winterlong and was no more than moderately impressed, really disliked the sequel (title I forget, perhaps Freudianly) but was really impressed by WtM; even though I did have some cavils--felt that the violence of the returning goddess could have been perhaps more strongly related to repression by the Benandanti (??), instead of being presented as an innate characteristic (if open to this other reading). But it did have a genuine ambivalence over who were the goodies and the baddies which was exciting, especially as presented from p.o.v. of the 'little person' caught in between. Also, it seemed to me to be well-written without the rather self-consciously 'fine writing' of the other works. Haven't seen the latest E Hand--not in p/back? awaiting a UK edition? (the import shops here in London sometimes do not get US editions of books lined up for UK edition--presumably some kind of publishers' restriction). Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Erik Tsao wrote: > Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by > Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a > friend. Thoughts on the book? > "Waking the Moon". And I loved it. Very lush, very detailed, and just amazing to read. Maybe it's because I'm an Anthropology and Religious Traditions of the West major, but I loved it. All these exquisite elements coming together deliciously. And a main character that was utterly fascinating. I've tried to read "The Glimmering", another novel of hers, but I just couldn't get into it... Kate Bolin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:04:03 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: elizabeth hand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice E. Dawley wrote: > I believe you mean _Waking the Moon_. I read it last summer and was quite > disappointed. I absolutely loved Hand's earlier novel _Winterlong_, and was > hoping for something as good -- instead I found a heavy-handed (and much > too lengthy) saga whose earthshaking insight was that women can be really > evil. The faces of Kali, Othiym, whatever -- how new is it to symbolize > women as either devourers or saints? I kept hoping that she would attempt > to stretch the boundaries of gender definitions and portray something new, > but my persistence was not rewarded. Frankly, I was amazed that this novel > won the Tiptree award. Anyone have insight as to why? Or can anyone show me > how I'm wrong in my reading of the novel? Talk about different strokes for different folks! I found _Winterlong_ to be rather chilly and ascetic in feel. I just could not warm up to it. On the other hand, I adored _Waking the Moon_. What I thought Hand was doing there was playing against the modern ideal of the nurturing, all-benevolent goddess. If we're to be full human beings, we need to acknowledge that we are wrong at times. One of the things that is wrong is the myth of the superwoman: the successful career woman with the perfect family who is Martha Stewart on the side. Most of us can't do that, and we shouldn't feel inferior if we don't measure up to this impossible standard. I thought Hand was knocking the goddess off her pedestal in the same way. She was giving her characters the right to be wrong and the goddess to be a bitch in the same way that male gods so frequently are cruel and capricious. Berni Phillips bernip@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:40:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Waking the Moon As a Pagan, I had to read it. To me, it felt like reading something from Anne Rice: great plot and fascinating setting, but unrealistic characters and general silliness due to poor writing. -- Anne Stuecker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Woman on the Edge of Time >The idea that the "power" to conceive and bear children necessarily creates an >imbalance between the sexes is not very convincing to me. Janice - If I'm remembering the book correctly, the purpose of the brooder was to allow men and women to perform whatever tasks they chose without any tasks being specifically applied to one sex. I do agree, though, that >It might have been more plausible to envision a society whose views on >childbearing were radically transformed than to come up with a technological fix WotEoT was the first feminist SF book I ever read, however, so I have a soft spot in my heart for it. -- Anne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Space exploration writes: >I was frankly surprised at how negative >people were about the space program -- I hope there are a lot of >listmembers out there who are more positive about space exploration but less >outspoken. Me! >If we are confined to Earth's resources, we >are forced to choose between glaring injustice and poverty for everybody. I don't understand why these are the two choices. If we see our future on Earth in such a fatalistic way, then we will be encouraging a destructive attitude towards the planet. It will be like saying, "Well, we can trash this planet, because we can move to another one, or to a moon, and set up shop there until we trash it, too." This discussion of people's anti-space exploration attitudes reminds me of a radio call-in show where a person on a cell phone asked the host what the space program had ever done for him. -- Anne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:18:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marilyn Nulman Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Elizabeth, I enjoyed your intro letter. I'm very interested in YA fantasy as I work with kids at my local library and am always looking for books to recommend to them. So far I've had good luck with the Alana books by Tamara Pierce, about a girl who switches places with her brother--he goes off to become a sorcerer and she to become a knight. Also, there are three books about Wren by ???? Smith--if you need the name I can find it for you. Titles: Wren's Rescue, Wren's Quest and Wren's War. You must know Lloyd Alexander's Taran series. They're not exactly feminist, althoug there are many strong female characters, but they are Celtic--or Welsh. Does that count? Meredith Pierce wrote a strange and affecting trilogy about a child-woman abandoned in a land of monsters, and Jo Clayton has written several books with young female characters, among them the Drinker of Souls trilogy--not sure if they'd be considered YA, though. I had to mention them--I liked them so much. Sheri Tepper's Jinian books fascinated me, too. I have four great cats and one cat-loving dog. I write, right now a fantasy which may run to three or four volumes, also mysteries. Hope to hear from you-- Regards, Marilyn >Drawn out of lurking by the bravery of others, I'd like to introduce >myself. Right now I'm a budding student (again; got an MA 2 years ago), >starting Ph.D work this fall in children's literature. I'm married, with 4 >cats (my husband is also on this list--Allen Briggs). I'm also a neophyte >computer person, mastering HTML and the creation of web pages, and planning >on learning VRML soon. > >I've been a feminist since I entered college, but I recently have had >revelations about just how subtle the oppression of women really is, even >among those who are learned and try not to support that behavior. This >revelation came right before I read Nicola Griffith's Ammonite, which had a >profound effect on me (I highly recommend it). I've appreciated the >thoughtful discussions and recommendations given on this list (I've been >lurking since March), and they've helped me greatly in my thoughts and my >research. I've only become entranced with fantasy and SF in the past few >years, become a fan of Star Trek in the past 2 years, and become a fan of >Bab5 in the past week. =-> > >My Ph.D work will focus on Celtic mythology and YA fantasy and SF, looking >for a more feminist alternative to the heroic quest narrative structure in >the mythology, and how that may be incorporated in contemporary British YA >fantasy and SF novels, depending on the author's gender. I also research >Japanese children's books dealing with WWII and the bombings, and >children's hypermedia and theories of children and technology. If anyone's >interested in these topics, I'd love to discuss them off-list. > >Elizabeth > > >-- >Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs >pandolfo@macbsd.com >http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html > >"Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." > --Peth, "Seaward" > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:45:58 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Female quest narratives >looking for a more feminist alternative to the heroic quest narrative >structure in the mythology I think this is a topic we could all be interested in! My immediate guess (though I'd hesitate to back it up with examples (since it is past midnight here)) is that female quests are less in the mode of hero setting out to make his fortune and more 'accidental' in the way they come about. Also maybe more 'anti-heroic': not exactly feminist perhaps but a series I fell in love with many years ago, Jane Gaskell's 'Atlan' sequence, has the protagonist Cija ending up in all sorts of grotty situations (kitchen maid in a low-class inn, holed up in tatty garretts, etc quite apart from being incarcerated by her husband Zerd in an extremely gothic tower for about a third of the second volume) in fact could be read as proceeding from enclosure to enclosure. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:28:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jana C. McCormick" Subject: Re: Contact, the book << ltimmel@HALCYON.COM (L. Timmel Duchamp) In response to this commentary, I want to say that the illogical discrepancies or ingredients of movies usually come from a director's wish to simplify a plot and downsize the cast of characters. I have yet to see this movie because I wanted to read the book first and I have just finished it. I adore good fiction combined with science and/or philosophy and well-rounded characters. Carl Sagan is a damn good writer. This surprised me after the rumors and reviews I have heard through the grapevine, which teaches me once again to think for myself. I developed a college level vocabulary through reading sci-fi as an elementary student and the fiction I chose after that did nothing to enhance that vocabulary. I was surprised and delighted to find myself looking up words like jingoism while reading this book. He does very well at explaining physics and astronomy to a layman, like myself, and almost all of these discrepancies I've heard of concerning the movie, and those I've seen in the trailor are nonexistent in the story. I suggest that those of you who were unsatisfied by the movie go pick up the book, you won't be sorry. I, myself, am about to pick up one of his previous novels, perhaps Comet. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:52:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: elizabeth hand In-Reply-To: <33D0C953.5F94@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 03:04 PM 7/19/97 +0100, Berni Phillips wrote, regarding _Waking the Moon_: >What I thought Hand was doing there was playing against the modern >ideal of the nurturing, all-benevolent goddess. If we're to be full >human beings, we need to acknowledge that we are wrong at times. One of >the things that is wrong is the myth of the superwoman: the successful >career woman with the perfect family who is Martha Stewart on the side. >Most of us can't do that, and we shouldn't feel inferior if we don't >measure up to this impossible standard. I thought Hand was knocking the >goddess off her pedestal in the same way. She was giving her characters >the right to be wrong and the goddess to be a bitch in the same way that >male gods so frequently are cruel and capricious. I think this is exactly what frustrated me about the book: it's already a common belief that any woman with a drive to succeed, who doesn't let others step all over her and coopt her, is a bitch (that is, cruel, manipulative, egotistical). So I didn't enjoy Hand showing how, indeed, this was the case. (I gave up hope right about when Angelica started sacrificing people, though I did finish the book.) -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time In-Reply-To: <19970719.180717.4230.0.avs5@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote: >The idea that the "power" to conceive and bear children necessarily >creates an imbalance between the sexes is not very convincing to me. At 05:27 PM 7/19/97 -0400, Anne V Stuecker wrote: >If I'm remembering the book correctly, the purpose of the brooder was to >allow men and women to perform whatever tasks they chose without any >tasks being specifically applied to one sex. As Luciente explains after the tour of the brooder: "It was part of women's long revolution. When we were breaking all the old hierarchies. Finally there was that one thing we had to give up too, the only power we ever had, in return for no more power for anyone. The original production: the power to give birth. Cause as long as we were biologically enchained, we'd never be equal. And males never would be humanized to be loving and tender. So we all became mothers." (page 105 of the Fawcett paperback). That is all the explanation the book ever gives for the brooders. But with that one snippet, Piercy raises many fascinating questions: 1) What does it mean to be "biologically enchained"? Some, such as St. Augustine, would argue that having a body at all (with its attendant lusts) means that we are enchained. 2) If equality means erasing differences between people, why isn't everyone in Mattapoisett exactly the same? 3) What does Piercy mean by the word "power"? 4) Is it really impossible for men to be loving and tender while women have the ability to bear children? There are more I can think of, but those are the most obvious questions. I want to stress here that I really loved the book and agree with Joan Haran that "its flaws are as stimulating to debate as its successes." I also just bought a copy of _He, She & It" and will be interested to compare the two. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:43:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Dowling Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives In a message dated 15/07/97 01:59:29, you write: << Has there been any discussion of this on the list? (I did quickly check the archives and there doesn't seem to have been). >> Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was copying and saving) Thanks janet (delurking yet again!) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:32:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970720125050.006ed580@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > 2) If equality means erasing differences between people, why isn't everyone > in Mattapoisett exactly the same? Equality, in the social sense, has never meant erasing differences. In Mattapoisett, everyone had the same opportunities, regardless of how different they were from each other. -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- and I was blessed with a birth and a death and I guess I just want some say in between --ani ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:31:04 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives I found these at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/listserv/index.html#archive Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Janet Dowling Sent: 20 July 1997 19:43 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives In a message dated 15/07/97 01:59:29, you write: << Has there been any discussion of this on the list? (I did quickly check the archives and there doesn't seem to have been). >> Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was copying and saving) Thanks janet (delurking yet again!) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:11:01 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: So who is on this list? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marilyn Nulman wrote: > sorcerer and she to become a knight. Also, there are three books about Wren > by ???? Smith--if you need the name I can find it for you. Titles: Wren's > Rescue, Wren's Quest and Wren's War. Sherwood Smith is the name you're blanking on. Berni ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: listserve archives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, indeed, there are archives. I update them when I have a chance. You can also review the archives by sending a note to listserv@listserv.uic.edu In the body of the message say index feministsf This will get you a list of weekly archives. After that you can send a message to listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message say get [archive name] where [archive name] is the name of the file ... The volume of these discussions (which are wonderful - I'm thrilled to see such a large population of people interested in feminist-sf - almost 200 current subscribers) is getting substantial. I am still looking for an academic host - a literature or women's studies department, maybe - that wants to sponsor the web-site and listserve. There are lots of projects that people have suggested to me that would be wonderful, if we had more people willing to do work on the web-site and some shared space. If any faculty out there in academic is interested and willing, let me know. Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > I found these at > http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/listserv/index.html#archive > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@msn.com > > ---------- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf > of Janet Dowling > Sent: 20 July 1997 19:43 > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives > > In a message dated 15/07/97 01:59:29, you write: > > << > Has there been any discussion of this on the list? (I did quickly check the > archives and there doesn't seem to have been). >> > > Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as > no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was > copying and saving) > > Thanks > > > janet > > (delurking yet again!) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:47:41 +0100 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sunday 20 July 1997, Susan Marie wrote: > > Equality, in the social sense, has never meant erasing differences. > In Mattapoisett, everyone had the same opportunities, regardless of > how different they were from each other. > Susan, that's only your opinion. You might like to consider the large body of feminist literature struggling with equality and/or difference. You might like to consider the way feminist discourse has been appropriated by the mainstream so that of course, e.g. women can have equal access to employment as long as we flatten out difference by equating pregnancy with sickness and therefore employment rights don't have to deal with pesky things like women having wombs. In Mattapoisett, there has been a huge - not to say violent - erasure of difference as women can no longer give birth. And I think if you read WOTET closely, you will note that there is _no_ discussion of contraception so I think you can infer that something fairly drastic has been done to reproductive organs. And what about race? Mattapoisett's answer to race is to divorce cultural identity from racial heritage and to make a conscious decision to reproduce more mixed race babies. Erasure of difference by the back door? I completely applaud Piercy's attempts to portray a society that gives equal opportunities to everybody, but I think that some of the strategies she depicts for achieving this are questionable. And I really think you need to think again about your statement - Equality in the social sense has never meant erasing difference -. Never is a long time - what is the history of the discourse of equality? And what difference can be perceived in the discourses depending on who is creating them - white middle class women, white working class women, black working class women, black middle class women and so on? Joan Haran ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives In-Reply-To: <970720144338_-1258714650@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Janet Dowling wrote: > Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as > no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was > copying and saving) NH: You would have gotten instructions in the refcard that was e-mailed to you after you signed on to the list. I saved mine to my hard drive at home, and I'm at work now, so I can't help you. But if you no longer have the refcard, probably listmistress Laura Quilter can help you. I once accessed the archives myself. They're very illuminating. -nalo > > Thanks > > > janet > > (delurking yet again!) > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:21:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time In-Reply-To: <199707210754.CAA50252@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I completely applaud Piercy's attempts to portray a society that gives > equal opportunities to everybody, but I think that some of the strategies > she depicts for achieving this are questionable. And I really think you > need to think again about your statement - Equality in the social sense has > never meant erasing difference -. Never is a long time - what is the > history of the discourse of equality? Right then, I'll amend that. Social equality -should- never mean erasing differences. It's probably less objectionable when explicitly phrased as an opinion, which is was meant to be. And I do stand by it--I'm not familiar with the entire history of the theoretical discourse on social equality, but I do know that the practical struggle for social equality (at least in the US, apologies for my limited reference frame) has historically been about equality of opportunity, not about forcing sameness. Or maybe I only see it that way because that's the only kind of fight for equality that I could respect. -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "To me, words like "homophobic," "sexist" and "patriarchical" are just that - meaningless crap invented by the Thought Police." "I really wish I lived in your world, John." "no you don't, because then it would be just you and him, 24/7." -- John Appelbaum, Ny Martin, julia starkey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: B5 news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In case you haven't heard, Claudia Christian isn't coming back for season 5. Apparently there were contract problems. This is a bit annoying. Here we had this amazing feminist character, on a science fiction TV show, and now she's just gone. While I'm glad that her departure doesn't have anything to do with ratings or the need to develop a plot line, I'm still a little cranky over this. Now who am I going to have as a role model? Delenn still slips into her "Oh John" stage every once in awhile, and Lyta isn't around often enough to be a main character. Thank goodness for my video tapes Kate who refuses to take anything overly seriously ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I'm already in the gutter....next stop, it's the drain..." Alien Sex Fiend "I Walk The Line" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:09:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Re: B5 news In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The text of jms's and Claudia Christian's versions of the problem can be found on the Lurker's Guide: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html Heather, a teeny bit hopeful that the miscommunication problems will be worked out. *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:20:17 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Different but Equal ??? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Susan Marie wrote: >> I completely applaud Piercy's attempts to portray a society that gives >> equal opportunities to everybody, but I think that some of the strategies >> she depicts for achieving this are questionable. And I really think you >> need to think again about your statement - Equality in the social sense has >> never meant erasing difference -. Never is a long time - what is the >> history of the discourse of equality? > >Right then, I'll amend that. Social equality -should- never mean >erasing differences. It's probably less objectionable when explicitly >phrased as an opinion, which is was meant to be. And I do stand by >it--I'm not familiar with the entire history of the theoretical >discourse on social equality, but I do know that the practical >struggle for social equality (at least in the US, apologies for my >limited reference frame) has historically been about equality of >opportunity, not about forcing sameness. Or maybe I only see it that >way because that's the only kind of fight for equality that I could >respect. There is a difference between "forcing sameness" and demolishing categorical difference. I see a disturbing trend in so-called feminism today that seems to be linked with it's decline. I think that just about everyone of both sexes should be seen as "essentially" the same. Not that they must be the same in all details, but that false categorical differences should be completely eliminated. This means that If time off is to be given for the raising of a child it should equally be given to all of the legal parents (be that mother, father, other mother, whatever) If justifiable requirements of strength are established for a particular job, those should not be confused with sex. I can think of no valid categorical difference between the sexes other than reproductive role and even then no valid consideration of that difference in our circumstances. For some ungodly reason, some "feminists" have tried to find differences between men and women. There have been books and television shows about "the differences between men and women" that have been given tacit approval by such feminists and their work. While I revel in difference and diversity, and try to cherish all for their particular gifts, I do NOT subscribe to some hogwash mystical chasm between the two poles (sexes) of human experience. I think that the only healthy place to entertain such notions is in the investigation of how we and are society have erred on this issue. I fully realize that I myself and most of the human world cannot help but fall from a state of "divine" blindness. We cannot help but form stereotypes and act upon them. Perhaps some of us cannot see clear to a stable equality given the current bio-economic setup. Perhaps a bit of understandable pessimism leads us to consider the erasure of categorical difference in one form or another, generally through alternative means of reproduction. However, a bit of pessimistic angst and an exploration of possible compomises made for far less than perfect people in a less than perfect world in an attempt to move closer to utopia is not always the same as advocation of those particular compromises and that particular world. I believe that false categorical difference does not allow equality. So, any fight for equality that does not "force sameness" in the sense of removing false categorical differences will be doomed to fail perhaps to even foster inequality and so not be worthy of my respect and support. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:12:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao asked: > Is Brite a misogynist or is she using misogynist images for a particular >reason? This question presupposes a level of intelligence, self-awareness and introspection which cannot be automaticly assumed. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:45:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao wrote: >Does a "queer" perspective really differ from a feminist one? This presupposes such a thing as 'a "queer" perspective'. Sexual preference/orientation/imprinting is one aspect of a person. . . Can/Does a single aspect have a 'perspective'? Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Mars and social justice In-Reply-To: <11870021@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Daniel L Krashin wrote: >Just a few thoughts on the Pathfinder discussion, since I didn't get a chance >to write anything about it all week. I was frankly surprised at how negative >people were about the space program -- I hope there are a lot of listmembers >out there who are more positive about space exploration but less outspoken. >Without even getting into the arrogance of Feyerabend's riff about >"well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries," I find this quote amazing >coming from someone on this list... I always thought one of the brilliant >things about Science Fiction as opposed to mainstream literature was that >S.F. noticed that technology actually effects everyday life. To be >completely uninterested in the moonshots, DNA (i.e. the secret of life) and >thermodynamics (i.e. how the universe works) seems to me to speak of either >lack of education, lack of imagination, or sheer bloodyminded Luddism. Thank you; I've avoided the thread because I'm too outspokenly pro-space development. I didn't want to risk a flamefest so tangential to the list topic. For instance: Perhaps the greateast single factor in our Earthly problems is population pressure. Nothing else aggravates more other problems worse. The known, proven solution to high birth rates is affluence. We have no better strategy toward universal affluence than space industrialization. There is no ecology on out Moon, or on the asteroids. If you want to return a patch of the Moon's surface to the contidion it was in before you strip-mined it, just walk away from it! Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:27:26 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Robin A. Dubner Dubner" Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite I read one of Brite's novels about a year ago and have no interest in reading anything else of hers. I have no problem with women writing horror or vampire stories if they are well written, i.e., Chelsea Quinn Yarbo. Unfortunately, Brite's book (I forget the title), was an unimaginative rip-off of Anne Rice's vampire books: the same decadent New Orlean's setting with aimless characters rotting in ennui, and the same self-indulgent style of writing. On the other hand, I discovered Sheri S. Tepper a couple of months ago and I've been devouring everything of hers I can get my hands on. The first book I read was The Gate to Women's Country, and I just loved it. Now, eight Sheri S. Tepper books later, I feel like going on a personal crusade to get her books read by everyone. Her feminism, great character development and lyrical writing are without comparison. I heartily enjoy the repeated themes of ecological disaster due to uncontrolled human breeding and the evils of religious fundamentalism. I love the development of her female protaganists into strong independent women. Anyone out there who wants to talk Sheri S. Tepper with me? ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of patricia johnston Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:24 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Hello, Seems to be a lot of yays/nays re Poppy`s writing. If someone has an e-mail address for her, perhaps she (Poppy) could join the list and join the discussion. Also has anyone read Gate To Women`s Country by Tepper, and what are your thoughts. Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:55:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Fwd: Different but Equal ??? --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: Different but Equal ??? Date: 97-07-21 17:54:49 EDT From: NYOUNGMAN To: Joel VanLaven << For some ungodly reason, some "feminists" have tried to find differences between men and women. There have been books and television shows about "the differences between men and women" that have been given tacit approval by such feminists and their work. >> Are you talking about researchers like Gillian, Belenky, Pipher, Tanner etc? I think their main point is that boys/men and girls/women are *socialized* differently, hence we *tend* to have some notable differences in how we see things, make decisions, and express ourselves. That's a long way from claiming that men and women have essential biological differences that "make" them a certain way. And if we're ever going to have true equality of opportunity, there *are* some instances where men and women may need to be treated in ways that respect biological differences. While I'm not crazy about the Pregnancy Disablity Act that treats pregnancy as a disease either, let's face it, there's really no male equivalent of *maternity* leave, though obviously *family* leave should be available to everyone. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:23:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Horror and Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robin and the gang: Since Robin brought Tepper into the Poppy Z. discussion, anyone out there read her three horror novels? Seems like some people did? And while I know Tepper is discussed on the list a lot, I don't mind revisiting her, rather than referring people to the archives. It might be fun for newbies to take a peek at the archives just to get a feel for what has been discussed... I am NOT obsessive about Tepper. Everyone has _Beauty_ in a galley, original hardcover, trade paperback, U.S. mass market, and U.K. mass market, right? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:43:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: Horror and Tepper Comments: To: Maryelizabeth Hart In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Robin and the gang: > > Since Robin brought Tepper into the Poppy Z. discussion, anyone out there > read her three horror novels? Seems like some people did? And while I know > Tepper is discussed on the list a lot, I don't mind revisiting her, rather > than referring people to the archives. It might be fun for newbies to take > a peek at the archives just to get a feel for what has been discussed... > > I am NOT obsessive about Tepper. Everyone has _Beauty_ in a galley, > original hardcover, trade paperback, U.S. mass market, and U.K. mass > market, right? Why of course, Maryelizabeth! I thought they were just handed out when you started graduate school! :) I've read all three of Tepper's horror novels, in addition to her fantasy and mystery work, and I have to say that I find her horror work a fine example of the genre. I went through a phase as an 18 and 19-year-old clerical type, with a long bus ride to work every day, where I devoured horror novels. I lost my taste for them when the job ended, so it's been awhile since I looked at anything recent - hence I've not read any Brite at all. The thing that I noted most about Tepper's horror was that the books scared the living shit out of me!! Yet when I return to them even now and try to point out to myself exactly what was so frightening about them, there's not much that's really specific. Yes, there is the gruesome discovery of the rotting, skinned corpses in _The Bones_ and the whirlwind maze in _Blood Heritage_ and the sinister, muffled presence in _Still Life_, but what makes Tepper's horror, and her other novels, so good, is her ability to cast a mood that draws a reader in rapidly and completely. In the case of her horror stories, that mood is effectively, chillingly dark. I've been passing up the offers to talk Tepper because I'm heading away on holiday soon and have heaps of work to do, but I couldn't let this one go! edrie Edrie Sobstyl School of Arts and Humanities JO 31 University of Texas at Dallas P.O. Box 830688 Richardson Tx 75083-0688 USA (972) 883-2365 esobstyl@utdallas.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:53:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I also love Tepper, even though she is frequently so extreme in her positions that I wonder if she is pulling our collective leg. You should try her mysteries as well, She writes under the name Oliphant and Orde. She also wrote a horror story under the name of Horlak. Currently Iam trying to locate her earlier works, Marianne etc. On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Robin A. Dubner Dubner wrote: > I read one of Brite's novels about a year ago and have no interest in > reading anything else of hers. I have no problem with women writing horror or > vampire stories if they are well written, i.e., Chelsea Quinn Yarbo. > Unfortunately, Brite's book (I forget the title), was an unimaginative rip-off > of Anne Rice's vampire books: the same decadent New Orlean's setting with > aimless characters rotting in ennui, and the same self-indulgent style of > writing. > On the other hand, I discovered Sheri S. Tepper a couple of months ago > and I've been devouring everything of hers I can get my hands on. The first > book I read was The Gate to Women's Country, and I just loved it. Now, eight > Sheri S. Tepper books later, I feel like going on a personal crusade to get > her books read by everyone. Her feminism, great character development and > lyrical writing are without comparison. I heartily enjoy the repeated themes > of ecological disaster due to uncontrolled human breeding and the evils of > religious fundamentalism. I love the development of her female protaganists > into strong independent women. > Anyone out there who wants to talk Sheri S. Tepper with me? > > > ---------- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf > of patricia johnston > Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:24 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite > > Hello, > Seems to be a lot of yays/nays re Poppy`s writing. If someone has an e-mail > address for her, perhaps she (Poppy) could join the list and join the > discussion. Also has anyone read Gate To Women`s Country by Tepper, and > what are your thoughts. > Patricia. > ~ Denise M. Borgen ~ If the world were a logical ~ ~ ~ place, men would ride sidesaddle ~ ~ ~ -Rita Mae Brown ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ ~ From lquilter@igc.apc.org Sun Nov 16 20:27:32 1997 Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:07:31 -0800 (PST) From: Laura Quilter To: lauramd@uic.edu Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9707C" (fwd) Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:03:14 -0600 From: L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c) To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9707C" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:04:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As an ex-librarian turned computer support engineer, I think in many cases libra1rians could be thought of as underpaid clerks. On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Brigid Venables. wrote: > > At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: > > > > >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go > > >down? (g) > > > It happened in the field of librarianship! We've had to re-invent > ourselves as "information managers" (or information scientists) lest we > be thought of as overpaid clerks. > > Brigid Venables. > ~ Denise M. Borgen ~ If man is only a little lower ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ than the angels, then the ~ ~ ~ angels should reform ~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:14:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages Lesley, no, in my opinion you're not missing a thing. This book falls into so many cliches it's frightening. Well, actually what's frightening is that so many reviewers believe it is something new. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: James Morrow: Only Begotten Daughter In a message dated 97-07-11 10:28:15 EDT, groppi@HCS.HARVARD.EDU (Susan Marie Groppi) writes: > One of my favorite quotes from the book: > > "Look at us... the all-American family. Who'd ever know it's a hermit, a > bastard, a dyke, and a deity?" One of the reasons I like Morrow is that his work abounds with good quotes. I liked the one above. Also: "...it's time we stopped having lower standards for God than we do for the postal service." Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: James Morrow: Only Begotten Daughter In a message dated 97-07-11 10:22:04 EDT, bernip@ix.netcom.com (Berni Phillips) writes: > I enjoyed _Only Begotten Daughter_, but his > point of having the title character being female seems only to tweak the > noses of those who are so sure Jesus in His second coming will again be > male. I have no idea what Morrow's intent was in having the main character be female. Does it matter? If a female character is in a position that is typically thought of as being somehow the purview of the male, doesn't the work become feminist, even if presenting a feminist viewpoint was not the writer's objective? > OBD has some good stuff in it, like the scene where Julie visits > her half-brother (the big JC) in hell, finding him dispensing water to > the hotly damned, totally unaware that a whole religion has grown up > around Him. I liked that part a lot, too. > Overall, I felt the book fell apart in the middle, as if > Morrow just had this great idea and didn't know what to do once he'd > written the set-up, and never really recovered. I don't agree. I thought the middle was the strongest part, and was disappointed in the climax and denouement. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:39:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In a message dated 97-07-13 07:40:11 EDT, Lesley_Hall@MSN.COM (Lesley Hall) writes: > Large families (pre mid-C19th) were largely not a matter of choice, though > there is fairly strong evidence that, in certain cultures--C18th France in > particular--family sizes were being restricted for economic reasons (across > the board, class-wise, so that inheritances would not be split up). It's my understanding that small families haven't always been a matter of choice, either. (My source for this is an educational "tour" kind of thing I took in Alice Springs a few years ago; since this is not the most reliable of sources, I'd greatly appreciate any corrections.) In times in which women live in semi-starved condition, they often are not fertile. If body weight falls below a certain level. menstruation ceases and the woman will not be able to conceive. (I believe this happens to anorexics.) In the aboriginal group covered in the tour, in the past it had been typical for a woman who married at age 13 (a common age for marriage) and lived to post-menopausal years to have only three or four children. And of course, not all would live to adulthood. On a related note, the birth of twins was considered to be the result of an evil spirit disrupting the normal way of things. One of the infants would be killed. Although unthinkable to most of us today, this policy actually had a practical basis -- it was unlikely that two infants could be supported, primarily because the mother was so poorly nourished that it was catch-and-go whether she could produce enough milk to keep even one baby alive. To put this firmly on-topic, has any sf been written that utilizes the inability of undernourished women to conceive? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:10:04 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kym wrote: >> > Although it's exciting that a woman/women are invloved in the Mars expedition ... it's important to look critically at the expedition istelf, and at space "exploration" in general. To me, it is very much a problem that billions of dollars are being spent on this, while at the same time, there are more & more people living out in the streets ... >> > Martha responded: >> >Very true. But where do you think all those billions of dollars get spent? >> >Some, at least, go to salaries -- keeping people employed -- (including >> >the janitors who clean the buildings and the truckers who bring in the >> >raw materials)... Robin responded: >The fact is that not all the money spent on the project ends up in the >hands of workers, and not even the same proportion as if the money was >spent in other industries. The space industry is expensive-materials >heavy, and labour costs create fewer high-paying jobs, which are >traditional 'good jobs' in any event, high-tech/education science jobs >which overwhelmingly go to men who are already most able to survive in the >modern economy. I agree with Kym and Robin ... to me, feminism IS a class issue because women, as a class are underpaid, undervalued, and exploited. To wit, the thread in this list about male/female engineers, librarians, computer pioneers ... To me, one of the most important aspects of feminist sf utopias is an egalitarian vision that distributes resources and responsibilities among men and women equally. LeGuin's *Dispossesed* and Starhawk's *Fifth Sacred Thing* come to mind. Though specialized professions are developed according to the individual's interests and abilities, so-called shit jobs (or low-paying jobs, such as janitors and truck drivers) are everyone's responsibility. The scarcity or abundance of resources affects everyone more-or-less equally, so men and women work together as true equals to improve the conditions of their community. I agree with Kym that "feminism is about equality for all people, not just for a few privileged women who get ahead in a formerly 'male' profession." I disagree with Laura that "Feminism is definitely _not_ about equality for all people. Feminism is about equality for women, so, as abhorrent as a character such as Thatcher is, it's still progress for womankind!" I don't think it's progress for womankind when women become like the worst masculists on earth. 'Honorary men' like Thatcher simply prove the masculist view: that a gal can get ahead if she's just as ruthlessly competitive and aggressive as the rest of the boys in the club. What interests me about feminist sf -- and feminist men -- is that they embody an alternative kind of equality based on mutual respect and cooperation. This has ramifications not only with regard to gender but also class, race, sexual preference, disabilities, etc. I too am concerned about "a continuation of the colonizing mentality and activity that resulted in the theft of land and genocide of the native peoples of the Americas." I find it interesting that "first contact" masculist sf usually has some kind of mindless War of the Worlds confrontation in which the aliens are simply the dreaded "Other" (the only good alien is a dead alien). Whereas the feminist version (especially Butler) conveys complex possibilities that value the alien's (Other's) individual personality and culture. I agree with Martha, that "cutting the space program won't do it. That money won't go to public welfare." Setting the space program against public welfare is fighting over crumbs. We've got to change our national and cultural priorities. I think that socially-conscious feminism can play an important role. Poverty in the U.S. is disproportionate by not only gender but also by race and other types of "otherness." As Laura and Nicole point out, the actual amount of cash needed to alleviate much suffering is miniscule compared to what we spend on weapons. Which is, by the way, historically the major impetus for technological innovation. Hey, I'd rather see a woman on Mars than a new weapon of mass destruction any day, even if she is white and middle-class (-; just kidding!!!:-) Sorry, this subject really pushes my buttons. OK, I'll get off my soapbox too and go back to lurking and making the book-exchange page. Holly Yasui ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:16:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: book exchange/shopping In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina Yereshenko, Kate Bolin, and others who are having problems finding books: Send me your requests and a price range (e.g. exchange, i.e. free) so that I can put them on the book-exchange/shopping-service page. List what you have to trade if you want to exchange. Also, if anyone besides Neil has books to sell/exchange, or favorite or useful book-aquisition websites, let me know. Any more book scout volunteers? Australia and Canada, we need you. Please send to my personal e-mail: hollyy@sprynet.com NOT to the list, there's too much traffic here. This can really work, you know, if we have "mutual respect and cooperation." (just making fun of myself here). Holly ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:25:25 +0000 Reply-To: k.willshaw@chester.ac.uk Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: k.willshaw@CHESTER.AC.UK Subject: Contact movie in the UK Hi When I was quite a lot younger I read the book "Contact" by Carl Sagan and it was one of those books that really made a difference to the way I looked at myself. This was because the main character, Elly, was a woman physicist. This inspired me in an awful lot of ways and I am now doing a Phd in a science subject because I felt that I can believe in my abilities and intelligence. Anyway to get to the point of this message, does anyone know if Contact has a release date in the UK because I cant bear the thought that I am not going to be able to see this adaptation of one of the best books I remember reading as an impressionable teenager! yours waiting with bated breath to see this movie Kate ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:34:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: transgressive sci-fi/fantasy/horror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" By "transgressive," I mean something that breaks the limits and taboos of middle-class mores and imagination (explicit gay sex scenes, for instance). The term, as I use it, comes from the mid-twentieth century French philosopher Georges Bataille. He uses it to refer to certain experiences which break us out of our sense of subjectivity. The clearest statement of this idea is in his book, _Erotism: Death and Sensuality_ (City Lights Press). Michel Foucault took up this theme in his "Preface to Transgression." Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:47:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marsha commented: >I'd just like to interject that NOTHING to do with books/ >literature pays, in comparison to other sectors' salaries. > >When I managed a bookstore, my daughter received >free hot lunch at school. > >When I was a textbook editor, she was eligible for >reduced price lunches. > >My first two library director positions were in small >libraries, paying considerably less than $20,000/year. > >And George R.R. Martin told me that even after his >first two books were published, and he was in WHO'S >WHO, he was on foodstamps. > >We're not involved with literature for money, we do what >we do because it pleasures us to do so. > Yeah, what she said. If I wasn't in a two income house, I wouldn't make enough as a bookstore owner and self-employed staff member to pay for my son's daycare. let alone anything else. All right, who's going to write a clever short story with those in the book biz being highly respected and HIGHLY PAID?!?! 'Cause it'd have to be SF or fantasy... Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re: Mars/social justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As much as I am interested in SF, and utopian feminist fiction, and Babylon 5, I have serious reservations about the manned (staffed?) space program. I like things like satellites and the recent Mars probe, but I seriously question sending people into space when we can't solve our problems down here. BTW, I think you all should become familiar with the controversy surrounding the upcoming Cassini Mission--if that fails lots of people could die. Anyway, if you look at the NASA budget by itself it doesn't look like much, so we have to ask ourselves How are they doing all these space things on a pittance? The answer? Military spending. While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly from the huge miltary/industrial complex. It uses some facilities that are military, or were developed by the military. It employs pilots who were trained in the military. It benefits from research conducted in universities which are heavily funded by the military, especially in the areas of science (maybe the reason why our libraries are so underfunded is that they produce little of use to the military). All I am saying is follow the money trail. Space programs require heavy capital expenditures, which are only really possible in industrialized countries. The space program may have developed velcro for those $150 Nikes, but it ain't providing housing for the homeless in my neighborhood. True, our real targets should be set on the military, but I want to point out that the space program is very intertwined with the military. Chuck0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:31:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Contact movie WARNING SPOILERS!!!! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Contains Spoilers: only read if you have seen the movie!! I totally agree with laura, love that jodie foster but she is way too pokey (my word for think people, being big and well padded myself). While overall I liked the movie I have a couple major quibbles with it. I agree that the portrayal of the religious figure as a non-denominational, open-minded, intelligent, sympathetic figure was refreshing, even for a dyed in the wool atheist like myself. But too much of the science v. religion dialogue was too cliche. And in the end when she's confronted by the question whether she expects people to take what she says on faith, it was like "OK PEOPLE THIS IS IRONIC PAY ATTENTION, WASN'T THAT IRONIC?" subtlety is a virtue after all. Also: why didn't the brilliant scientist Elly ask about the length of the recording? And why couldn't they have sent someone else? Why didn't they even try? Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk and the awful Tulane University Library In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Kate Bolin wrote: > Well, I started hunting. And I'm beginning to realize that the Howard > Tilton Memorial Library of Tulane University, New Orleans, Louisiana is > HOPELESSLY out of date. > I found one book on the list of possible authors. Joan Slonczewski. I > don't remember the name of the book off the top of my head (since I just > write down the call number). One book. > The library's great for finding old books (I found a 1928 edition of "The > Golden Bough"), but anything published after 1990 that wasn't published in > the South....forget it. > Please use the Interlibrary Loan facilities at your library. You can get any book this way at usually no cost. Lori ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:12:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Mars/social justice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- I'm of divided mind about this question. I subscribe to the ideals of space exploration - surely its to the benefit of all peoples to expand knowledge and open up our options as a species. But I believe the space program in its current incarnation will accomplish those ideals only incidentally. NASA seems to have its roots firmly in the alliance of military, politicians and industry that made the Cold War so profitable for the economic elite (and which also keeps the Cold War going today, absurdly) . It's difficult to see the immediate benefits of NASA space programs, except for spinoff improvements to consumer products - and aren't these really benefits to industry? For me, it's even more difficult to imagine that the players in this scenario - NASA, its contractors, the politicians who support it - have much interest in the long-term benefit of lower-income folks such as myself. And I'm concerned that the main thrust of NASA's programs in the long term will be exploitive - mining, commercial use of near-space, etc. Yes , capitalism is a great motive for exploration. But historically this kind of exploration and settlement has been as destructive as it has been constructive, wasting opportunities in quests for specific resources for immediate markets. (An earthly example: How much more productive and sustainable would the Great Plains be if we had studied and tended the region's abundant original resources instead of "terraforming" them to European standards?) I wouldn't play this as a NASA vs. welfare issue. I see it as a rethinking issue. Approaching space exploration with the worst possible motives (military advantage and profit) seems like a terrible way to lay the groundwork for our possible future. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: CMUNSON In-Reply-To: <0007C4D6.1205@aaas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, CMUNSON wrote: > Surprise, I'm not technically a librarian any more. I'm a > webmaster/computer specialist for an association that didn't hire me > for my librarian background, but is finding that experience helpful > enough to send me to ALA. I jumped from my profession because the > salaries didn't pay enough to live on, not to mention getting ahead. > Lots of Former Librarians out there. If I could figure out something else to do, or be accepted in a job doing something else, I would happily move on to another field. Sure can't go back to school again - am still paying off my student loan to get my library degree. I'm fed up with the whole thing. Lori> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:36:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries << If I wasn't in a two income house, I wouldn't make enough as a bookstore owner and self-employed staff member to pay for my son's daycare. let alone anything else. >> Me too, me too!! Thank goodness for spouses with real jobs--he's a social worker & so will never be unemployed. ;-) But of course I'm a grad student who only works part-time in one of the big chain bookstores (oh, okay, the initials are B&N), but considering what I've seen the mgrs go through, I do *not* want their job!! Also--all this talk about feminist sf in French (Canadian?) has gotten me thoroughly intrigued. I majored in French as an undergrad, and many years later my grasp of the language isn't so great anymore, but if some kind soul could give some recommendations of where to start & how to get it I'd love to try to read some. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries << All right, who's going to write a clever short story with those in the book biz being highly respected and HIGHLY PAID?!?! 'Cause it'd have to be SF or fantasy... >> Hmm...maybe we could put an anthology together. _Chicks With Big Books_ or _Ladies of the Library_, perhaps? ;-) Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lori A. Campbell" Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries (formerly, Mars -Reply) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Marsha Valance wrote: > > We're not involved with literature for money, we do what > we do because it pleasures us to do so. The only problem is, with me being involved in dog rescue (which gives me great satisfaction also), that I have 25 dogs to take care of. Dog food, vet bills......it ain't cheap - not to mention other things required for survival. Lori > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Contact movie WARNING SPOILERS!!!! << But too much of the science v. religion dialogue was too cliche. >> That's true--but it's a dialogue that's going on all the time, and I think a lot of people need to see it presented that way, worked into a good story. I live in the Deep South, and it was gratifying to me to see that the theater was *packed* (it was also kind of nice to think that the two Beavis & Butthead types next to me who were alternately having burping contests and discussing how many light-years away such-and-such was were being presented with a female scientist figure like it was no big deal!)--I hope it got some folks thinking. I think that to people like us who are accustomed to reading SF with a critical eye, the arguments seem pretty routine, but to most folks they probably aren't. Hmm, I seem to be de-lurking with a vegenance today... Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:41:50 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Anny Middon comments: >It's my understanding that small families haven't always been a matter of >choice, either. [snip] In times in which women live in semi-starved >condition, they often are not fertile. If body weight falls below a certain >level. menstruation ceases and the woman will not be able to conceive I quite agree! There are lots of reasons for involuntary infertility, including sexually transmitted diseases (which I'm inclined to attribute some of those small French families to, given the practically routine assumption in the society that all men went to brothels), under-nutrition, and sexual ignorance. There is a good book by Janet Farrell Brodie on Contraception and Abortion in C19th America which details all sorts of hygienic practices women were following which might have reduced their chances of conceiving even though they weren't deliberately practising contraception, and also, why women practising what they thought was the safe period found it worked, even though it was nothing like what we now know to be the time of ovulation. Given half a chance, I can go on and on about birth control, fertility, etc; so I was trying not to in my previous posting... Can't think offhand of any sf/fantasy about infertility caused by malnutrition--I have a faint idea there is something somewhere about an STD which is a contraceptive--anyone have any ideas? Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:30:54 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Beth Widmaier Subject: birth control books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just joined this listserv last week and have yet to join the conversation--I've been lurking back and enjoying all the intelligent conversation. Because I am new, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Susan Squier's book _Babies in Bottles: Twentieth-Century Visions of Reproductive Technology_ (1994). This book looks at images of reproductive technology in twentieth-centruy culture, considering the writings of Julian Huxley, JBS Haldane, Charlotte, Haldane, Aldous Huxley, and Naomi Mitchison, and weaving in the history of reproductive technology and its popular representations. The premise of the book is laid out in the introduction: "If we spend a little time teasing out the implications of these images of babies in bottles, we can see that they all enact the fantasy of the womb as a see-through container for the previously invisible fetus, but they differ in the meanings they attach to it." This book might be of interest to those out there interested in how science fiction, science writing, and fiction have reflected issues of reproductive technology. Although not strictly related to the issue of birth control (or the lack thereof), it is intricately tied to the notion of birth itself and woman's role in that process, and it is an excellent scholarly work that credits SF as a cultural force. Let me also take this space to introduce myself. I am a graduate student in English (twentieth century American fiction and feminist theory) at the Pennsylvania State University. When I was younger I read a lot of science fiction, and I wrote my undergraduate honors thesis on Feminist Utopias (mostly twentieth century, such as Atwood, Piercy, Le Guin, Brantenberg, Carter, etc, but with a little background all the way back to Margaret Cavendish). I am still interested in Feminist SF and read what I can, although I don't have as much time to read the fun stuff as I used to. I have started compiling a list of "must reads" from the listserv, and will soon need to drop out of graduate school to keep up with it! Beth Widmaier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:48:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: 9309629n@Magpie.Magill.UniSA.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 4:42 PM 7/14/97, 9309629n@Magpie.Magill.UniSA.edu.au wrote: >> At 1:17 AM 7/12/97, Pat York wrote: >> >> >Hmm, if engineering becomes a woman-dominated field will the pay go >> >down? (g) >> >It happened in the field of librarianship! We've had to re-invent >ourselves as "information managers" (or information scientists) lest we >be thought of as overpaid clerks. Brigid, Alas, it does not surprise me; I'm sure there are other examples as well . . . Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:48:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:39 PM 7/14/97, Laura Wigod wrote: >Feminism is about equality for women, so, as abhorrent as a character such >as Thatcher is, it's still progress for womankind! (sigh) I realize it's >difficult to acknowledge that women are as capable of all the -isms as any >man, but that's the way it is! Yes -- the idea, I thought, was that women should be able to be just as big a jerk as a man and get the same kind of rewards out of it that that man would. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:48:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:41 AM 7/14/97, Laura Wigod wrote: >I've always wanted a large family, largely >(haha), I believe, because of the horrificly abusive nightmarish violent >childhood I had. One of the (many) things that got me through it was >fantasizing about the kind of parent _I_ was going to be, and, which, I can >say, most happily, I now am. (snip) >Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the decision to have more children >goes beyond social, cultural and economic reasons and encompasses the >deeply personal. Agreed, of course; but I have to add that the deeply personal reasons can also be negative in both cause and effect (obviously not the case for you, thank gods). I am thinking of a young woman I know who grew up with an emotionally and pyschologically abusive and manipulative mother, and who for many years moaned about her "baby-lust", which she herself understood to be an expression of a desire similar to yours, to give some kids the great childhood that she had been deprived of. However, it was quite clear to virtually everyone around her (although not to her in any respect) that she had come out of her own childhood experience with such a fear-driven drive to control everything and everyone around her that it seemed virtually certain that instead -- if she had children -- she would duplicate, more or less, the miserable situation in which she had grown up, this time as the mom instead of the kid. Fortunately, various economic and personal factors have since brought her around to deciding that she hasn't the resources to bear and raise a child, and she has thrown off this obsession and plunged instead into her career, with results that delight her and make all who know her proud and pleased on her behalf. In other words, as I guess everyone who thinks at all knows by now, This Field Is Mined; Always Proceed With Caution! You found a path. Others who set out with similar intent can wreck themselves and those they love. Of course, it's perfectly possible that we were all wrong, and that if she had had a baby after all the experience would have led her to grow out of the worst of the ruts that her own bad experience had left in her soul. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:54:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: horror/fantasy/sci-fi course In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Have any of you has taught science fiction, fantasy or horror >>fiction of a "transgressive" nature before? What was the response you got >>from your students? I look forward to reading your responses. > What do you mean by "transgressive"? The current, idiomatic usage seems to mean "titillating to Twenty-Somethings," the age cohort whose adolescence was steeped in the Sex = Death ( = Blood) message of the first decade of AIDS. For sf's notions of "transgressive", c.f. _Dangerous Visions_. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:22:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: <0007CBEB.1205@aaas.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CMUNSON wrote: >BTW, I think you all should become familiar with the controversy >surrounding the upcoming Cassini Mission--if that fails lots of people >could die. Huh? >While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly >from the huge miltary/industrial complex. Then why start by picking on NASA? >All I am saying is follow the money trail. Space programs require heavy >capital expenditures, which are only really possible in industrialized >countries. "follow the money" usually involves hard numbers. With all due respect, all you provide is hand-waving. >The space program may have developed velcro for those $150 Nikes, but it >ain't providing housing for the homeless in my neighborhood. Just about everyone knows that neither velcro nor idioticly priced gym shoes have nothing to do with the space program. I, for one, find the low quality of your bluster and rhetoric borders on insulting. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:30:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: <199707151712.NAA118226@mime3.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: >I'm of divided mind about this question. I subscribe to the ideals of >space exploration - surely its to the benefit of all peoples to expand >knowledge and open up our options as a species. But I believe the space >program in its current incarnation will accomplish those ideals only >incidentally. > >NASA seems to have its roots firmly in the alliance of military, >politicians and industry that made the Cold War so profitable for the >economic elite (and which also keeps the Cold War going today, absurdly) >. It's difficult to see the immediate benefits of NASA space programs, >except for spinoff improvements to consumer products - and aren't these >really benefits to industry? For me, it's even more difficult to imagine >that the players in this scenario - NASA, its contractors, the >politicians who support it - have much interest in the long-term benefit >of lower-income folks such as myself. > >And I'm concerned that the main thrust of NASA's programs in the long >term will be exploitive - mining, commercial use of near-space, etc. Yes >, capitalism is a great motive for exploration. But historically this >kind of exploration and settlement has been as destructive as it has >been constructive, wasting opportunities in quests for specific >resources for immediate markets. (An earthly example: How much more >productive and sustainable would the Great Plains be if we had studied >and tended the region's abundant original resources instead of >"terraforming" them to European standards?) > >I wouldn't play this as a NASA vs. welfare issue. I see it as a >rethinking issue. Approaching space exploration with the worst possible >motives (military advantage and profit) seems like a terrible way to lay >the groundwork for our possible future. >-- >David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com > >"The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind >to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:31:00 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gabrielle Bate Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries >Also--all this talk about feminist sf in French (Canadian?) has gotten me >thoroughly intrigued. I majored in French as an undergrad, and many years >later my grasp of the language isn't so great anymore, but if some kind soul >could give some recommendations of where to start & how to get it I'd love to >try to read some. > >Nicole As I've said before, I'm very fond of Elisabeth Vonarburg's work, especially _Chroniques du pays des meres_. It's published by Quebec/Amerique. Also take a look at www.alire.com. Alire is a new publisher in Quebec. And if you have titles in mind there's Schoenhof's Foreign Books in Cambridge, MA (www.schoenhofs.com). They don't have much sf at all, apparently it doesn't sell, but they will special order. There's also a magazine called Solaris that has a web page. Gabby Bate bate@facstaff.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: joanna goltzman Subject: sex scenes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao wrote: "The only one who I got a mixed response on was Poppy Z. Brite. And that had more to do with the students having problems with some very explicit gay love scenes. My response was to take that to another level and ask them if the vividness of Brite's language in describing the love-making scenes was what really disturbed them. Or did it have to do with the fact that this was gay sex that was being so vividly represented. Most of them denied that the latter was the problem. But I had a feeling that this was what really bothered them." I also was bothered by the sex scenes in some of the feminist sf books I've been reading until I realized that those scenes are more about societal issues than about relationships between specific individuals. Such scenes experiment with and challenge gender roles, societal norms, and taboos. I often find that sex scenes in novels from other genres are just boring. Feminist SF sex scenes are anything but boring because there's so much going on in them besides sex. Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:50:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: <970715023907_-1493524419@emout11.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anny, I'm afraid that the "natural birth control" (i.e. that semi-starved women are not fertile) is overestimated. In the place I came from (Tajikistan, in Asia) majority of women (especially in remote villages) have babies as often as every nine months, since they are married and until the menapause (that is if they live through it). First reason is that Muslim religion prohibits birth control. Second, a couple would not even try to use it,if they do not have a son yet. Girls are not considered worth anything, so if a family has eight daughters, the woman will still be forced to have babies until she has a boy. The infant mortality is one of the highest in the world, so only 7-8 children survive, but that's enough to keep the family at such poverty level, that the only food they can afford is bread and tea -- for years. Which does not seem to prevent more pregnancies. What I am saying, it would probably save a lot of lives, if women would not have children until they are well-nourished, but unfortunately, it's not the case. Of course, this is not a scientific fact, just something I had a chance to witness for the first 20 years of my life. Marina P.S. Another thing - children in that society are considered the best blessing of ones' life, and the only one (unlike money) available to everyone. It is important to a point that if a woman cannot have children, her husband is very likely to kick her out. And people who are not married (and therefore, cannot have children) are considered having wasted their life. On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Anny Middon wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-13 07:40:11 EDT, Lesley_Hall@MSN.COM (Lesley Hall) > writes: > > It's my understanding that small families haven't always been a matter of > choice, either. (My source for this is an educational "tour" kind of thing I > took in Alice Springs a few years ago; since this is not the most reliable of > sources, I'd greatly appreciate any corrections.) > > In times in which women live in semi-starved condition, they often are not > fertile. If body weight falls below a certain level. menstruation ceases and > the woman will not be able to conceive. (I believe this happens to > anorexics.) In the aboriginal group covered in the tour, in the past it had > been typical for a woman who married at age 13 (a common age for marriage) > and lived to post-menopausal years to have only three or four children. And > of course, not all would live to adulthood. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:54:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Haven't been paying a whole lot of attention; got back from Readercon to 126 posts, and am trying to clear them. So you'll understand if this response seems a bit off base, but Nancy Kress's next novel starts from the premise of children being extremely scarce due to falling sperm counts in men. Heard Nancy read from it in Toronto a few weeks ago. She lamented a little that the research on which she based the promise is being proved to be not quite accurate, but the novel's written now. I think it's due out next year. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:58:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Mars/social justice In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970715132246.006fc668@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:22 PM 7/15/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: >CMUNSON wrote: >>While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly >>from the huge miltary/industrial complex. > >Then why start by picking on NASA? > >>All I am saying is follow the money trail. Space programs require heavy >>capital expenditures, which are only really possible in industrialized >>countries. > >"follow the money" usually involves hard numbers. With all due respect, >all you provide is hand-waving. > >>The space program may have developed velcro for those $150 Nikes, but it >>ain't providing housing for the homeless in my neighborhood. > >Just about everyone knows that neither velcro nor idioticly priced gym >shoes have nothing to do with the space program. I, for one, find the low >quality of your bluster and rhetoric borders on insulting. > >Neil Rest Having a bad day, Neil? As Chuck explained at the end of his message: >our real targets should be set on the military, but I want to point out that >the space program is very intertwined with the military. This seems like a reasonable assertion to me. The reason he's "picking on NASA" rather than the military is that someone had already broached the topic. I also have my doubts about the wisdom of the space program. It's true that there are many things we can learn from it, but it seems unlikely to me that the returns are going to approach the investment. Other investments (such as quality education) have a much higher cost to benefit ratio for society as a whole, so it seems that we ought to redirect our spending accordingly. Paul Feyerabend, an outspoken critic of the scientific establishment, said (in _Science in a Free Society_) re: the US moon trip of 1969: "Of course, our well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries are liable to burst with excitement over events such as the moonshots, the double helix, non-equilibrium thermodynamics. But let us look at the matter from a different point of view, and it becomes a ridiculous exercise in futility. It needed billions of dollars, thousands of well-trained assistants, years of hard work to enable some inarticulate and rather limited contemporary to perform a few graceless hops in a place nobody in his right mind would think of visiting - a dried out, airless, hot stone." He overstates it a bit, but in essence I have to agree with him. Regarding high tech in general, I just finished _Woman on the Edge of Time_, and thought that one of the less convincing aspects of the future utopia was the casual presence of gadgets like the "kenner." I suppose by that time humans may have found better ways of making logic chips & the like, but as it stands now the manufacture of semiconductors is anything but environmentally friendly. How would it fit in to their society? (I say this fully aware that my life would be radically different without my computer, which allows me to do great things like participate in this list.) For the most part, I really liked the book. Mattapoisett approximates my own ideals of gender, sexuality, social fabric. I didn't quite know what to make of the ending, though. Was it implied that by killing the doctors Connie was helping to pave the way for Mattapoisett? I suppose at the least it prevented the experimental brain surgery from being carried out... As Luciente says, "We all fight when we're back to the wall... or to tear down a wall." Perhaps if everyone learned how to direct anger appropriately, things would change for the better. Those who have read the book, what do you think? -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Loop Guru, Duniya; Shonen Knife, Brand New Knife "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:58:46 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nicole Youngman wrote: > > << All right, who's going to write a clever short story with those in the > book > biz being highly respected and HIGHLY PAID?!?! 'Cause it'd have to be SF or > fantasy... > >> > > Hmm...maybe we could put an anthology together. _Chicks With Big Books_ or > _Ladies of the Library_, perhaps? ;-) > > Nicole _Babes with Books_, definitely. (Maybe Esther Friesner would consider it. I hear she's doing a second Chicks in Chainmail anthology.) Facetiously yours, Berni Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:40:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Contact movie writes: >Now Jodie Foster is not Octavia Butler... Octavia Butler acts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:05:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: another quick comment from moderator Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII oh yeah. and when a topic has veered substantially from the original thread it is very helpful to change the subject line to something like: new topic (was re: old topic) happy chatting to all ... list-mistress LQ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:03:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: mars & librarian's salaries Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII gentle reminder from moderator: although the discussions of mars, the space program, and librarian's woefully inadequate salaries are fascinating (especially the salary discussion, to me, a librarian) - they are not immediately relevant to the discussion at hand ... Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:09:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Master i Margarita Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nalo, Sorry it took me so long. My mail program crashed and I was just able to recover last week messages. Confusion about who wrote _1984_ is no big deal. Nichego strashnogo :) . I read another story by Orwell, I believe it's original title was something like _Pigs Barn_. It was good, but a little straightforward. More politics than fiction. Marina On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > > > > Nalo, > > > > title while translating the book. I never read _1984_, though. Isn't it > > by George Orwell? > > NH: Damn, yeah, it is. I don't even have the excuse of advancing age, > not really. > > -nalo > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:00:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:39 AM 7/15/97, Anny Middon wrote: >To put this firmly on-topic, has any sf been written that utilizes the >inability of undernourished women to conceive? Well, drat, I probably *should* have in WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD -- although unless I had gone on to "explain" that this factor had led to the propagation of women who had a higher tolerance for undernourishment and so could still conceive, I would have had to have junked the whole story, since most likely there wouldn't have been any Holdfast people! Does anybody know if the Ik people, who were written about years ago as living in conditions as close to total starvation as exist anywhere, still do exist, and if so how they have coped with/gotten around/managed to keep their numbers up in spite of being starved all the time, if indeed they have? The book was a sensation, and then nothing was ever heard again about these victims of a government program that had uprooted them from their lands and forcibly settled them someplace else where they literally could not produce any food for themselves (at least that's how I remember the story -- it was years ago now, a true horror story). Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ann Wheeler Subject: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women I've just seen _Contact_, and I would be interested in hearing how other people react to the female characters in the film. While I think that there's much to like about Ellie, the Jodie Foster character, I wish that she had some contact with other women at some point in the film. There are some group shots in the control that show other female scientists, and there is the African-American woman who seems to be in on the important political decisions. However, the people with whom Ellie has real relationships--her friends, her colleagues, her rivals, her lover--all seem to be men. During her childhood, her father is her major influence; she never knows her mother (who dies in childbirth, I think?) If I'm remembering correctly, the child at the end who asks the question about extra-terrestrial life is a boy. I was pleased with the portrayal of Ellie as a woman whose life is dominated by a passion that is not romantic, and I found the final shot when she is alone in the desert unexpectedly moving (and I wanted to cheer because she wasn't shown in the arms of Palmer Joss, having lost the aliens but gotten the man). But I also think that perhaps in some ways she represents very much a masculine fantasy of what an independent woman's life might be like: she is unmarried; she works; she certainly manages her life competently; but all the important people in her life are men. (Maybe, though, this would be realistic for the portrayal of the professional life of a woman working in her field today? I don't know.) I've also been interested by some of the fragments of television reviews that I've heard. I haven't paid close attention to them, but it seems to me that I've heard at least two describe her as an isolated woman who hides from her personal pain in her work. I can see some evidence for this point of view in the film, but on the whole I don't see the film emphasizing her isolation (although she is frequently shown alone, but I think that's different). Indeed (given that all her relationships are with men), she seems to me to have a number of enduring friendships. Do the reviewers just not know what to say about a female character in a movie whose story is not a love story? (or--as my teen-aged students, male and female, often tell me, am I just being over-sensitive?) Ann Wheeler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:06:36 +0100 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time, was re:Mars/social justice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice wrote: > Regarding high tech in general, I just finished _Woman on the Edge of > Time_, and thought that one of the less convincing aspects of the future > utopia was the casual presence of gadgets like the "kenner." I suppose by > that time humans may have found better ways of making logic chips & the > like, but as it stands now the manufacture of semiconductors is anything > but environmentally friendly. How would it fit in to their society? I must confess, the "kenners" were something I didn't think very clearly about. I was too focussed on how the "brooder" might fit into their society, and the idea that to be equal women had to give up the _power_ to give birth naturally. Now that we all know about how IVF works, I would question whether the brooder would fit. "Harvesting" the raw materials required to create babies outside the womb does not seem to me to be the choice that would be made by radicals wresting the control of science from the oppressors. What do you think, Janice? > > For the most part, I really liked the book. Mattapoisett approximates my > own ideals of gender, sexuality, social fabric. I didn't quite know what to > make of the ending, though. Was it implied that by killing the doctors > Connie was helping to pave the way for Mattapoisett? I also think it is a wonderful book and that Mattapoisett has a lot to recommend it. I think its flaws are as stimulating to debate as its successes. I think you are right about the ending. I believe that Piercy is stressing that direct action is required to change the status quo - not just theorising - and that we can't leave all the power to act in the hands of those we disagree with. We have to take personal responsibility for change. Having read Woman on the Edge of Time, it's very interesting to then read He, She and It (Body of Glass in the UK where I'm based) and compare Piercy's two different visions of the future. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Master i Margarita In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:09 7/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Nalo, >Sorry it took me so long. My mail program crashed and I was just able to >recover last week messages. > >Confusion about who wrote _1984_ is no big deal. Nichego strashnogo :) . >I read another story by Orwell, I believe it's original title was >something like _Pigs Barn_. It was good, but a little straightforward. >More politics than fiction. > >Marina > _Animal Farm_ -- and you are correct; politics was Orwell's big subject. (Base of _1984_ as well, I think.) Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:48:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 20:00 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 2:39 AM 7/15/97, Anny Middon wrote: > >>To put this firmly on-topic, has any sf been written that utilizes the >>inability of undernourished women to conceive? > >Well, drat, I probably *should* have in WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD -- >although unless I had gone on to "explain" that this factor had led to >the propagation of women who had a higher tolerance for undernourishment >and so could still conceive, I would have had to have junked the whole >story, since most likely there wouldn't have been any Holdfast people! > >Does anybody know if the Ik people, who were written about years ago as >living in conditions as close to total starvation as exist anywhere, >still do exist, and if so how they have coped with/gotten around/managed >to keep their numbers up in spite of being starved all the time, if indeed >they have? The book was a sensation, and then nothing was ever heard >again about these victims of a government program that had uprooted them >from their lands and forcibly settled them someplace else where they >literally could not produce any food for themselves (at least that's how >I remember the story -- it was years ago now, a true horror story). > >Suzy > The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group actually like the Ik had even existed. (But that could be counter- propaganda.) Anyone have a recent take on this? Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:55:52 -0400 Reply-To: Tanya Wood Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women In-Reply-To: <970715225004_424837456@emout13.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I saw "Contact" last night- the space travel scenes were fabulous, the tropical island paradise vividly surreal, and the scientific teamwork going beyond the traditional single scientist as hero cliche. I also thought the appalling Drummond was a cutting critique of what can really go on with academic advisors, and that this male "voice of authority" kept on being heeded while Ellie's own voice was marginalised by the powers that be. In terms of her relationships, in many senses she seemed to be a Susan Calvin figure in a buldingsroman where she learns that other (male) people are all that really matters in the end (although women may be useful for getting directions to a dress store). I thought Ann Hampton's comments very perceptive on the lack of women in Ellie's life. What I'd like to take issue with is the romantic aspect of the movie, which, alongside the change in Ellie's perception of religious people (from lunatic and hostile to warm and supportive), seemed to me to be sentimental, and a "soft sell" to a cinema audience that wouldn't find a Susan Calvin (or a very probably queer Jodie Foster) sympathetic. The protective arm of the strong but tender male character as Ellie stumbles out of the halls of the inquiry seemed a walking cliche and an indication that Ellie alone is not quite up to the demands of public life. And I also don't think that Ellie was alone in the final shot in the desert. As the sandy rocks trail away from her hand, on her wedding finger is what seemed to me to be clearly a ring. Moral: here a happy ending as traditional (and cliched) as it is annoying in that it strongly suggests that marriage is still the proper kind of closure for women. But apart from these points, I loved the movie. The relationship with Palmer could also be read from another perspective: that, for once, it is a man providing emotional support from the finges of the movie. This is usually the position occupied by a female supporting character (who would admitedly have substantially less public power than Palmer did). And thanks to Mike Levy for providing me with his diss. information. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:14:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women Comments: To: Tanya Wood In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: In terms of her > relationships, in many senses she seemed to be a Susan Calvin figure in a > buldingsroman where she learns that other (male) people are all that > really matters in the end (although women may be useful for getting > directions to a dress store). I thought Ann Hampton's comments very > perceptive on the lack of women in Ellie's life. > > Tanya. > I pretty much agree with Tanya's and other's analysis of male-female power relationships in Contact, but with one suggestion. The black, female presidential assistant, played by Angela Bassett, is considerably more than just a good source of information on where to buy a nice dress. She has considerable power and uses it as needed, for example when Drummond (Drumlin? whatever) is trying to completely take over the project and she, pretty much by executive fiat, states that Ellie will continue to have day to day control over operations. I wonder how much of Ellie's isolation from female co-workers is simply the usual male-authored cliche on Sagan's part and how much of it is the way things still are (or were when Sagan wrote the book in the late 1980s) for women working in the hard sciences. Anyone here have the kind of background to comment on this from first hand experience? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:24:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Tuesday, July 15, 1997: Joanna Goltzmann wrote: "I also was bothered by the sex scenes in some of the feminist sf books I've been reading until I realized that those scenes are more about societal issues than about relationships between specific individuals. Such scenes experiment with and challenge gender rolse, societal norms, and taboos.... Feminist SF sex scenes are anything but boing because there's so much going on in them besides sex." My reply: Exactly! This is what I tried to get across to my students. But like most undergraduates today, my students are unsophisticated readers they could only focus on instances in the novel which shocked them. In fact there were only two students who didn't have a real problem with the novel. They were older and more open-minded than some of the other students. I taught Samuel Delany's _Tales from Nerveryon_ last year in a freshman composition class. The odd thing is that the students didn't seem to complain about the presence of a homosexual relationship between Gorgik and Small Sarg. It was the women who were most open to reading and discussing these issues. The male students seemed to be somewhat discomforted by the reading material. On the other hand, a colleague of mine really focused on sexuality and feminism in her class and received a huge amount of resistance from her students. Here's an interesting question. Would this have something to do with the differences in gender between myself and my colleague? Do students tend to respect male teachers and their idiosyncratic interests more than female teachers and their interests? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:56:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao asked: >I taught Samuel Delany's _Tales from Nerveryon_ last year in a freshman >composition class. The odd thing is that the students didn't seem to >complain about the presence of a homosexual relationship between Gorgik and >Small Sarg. It was the women who were most open to reading and discussing >these issues. The male students seemed to be somewhat discomforted by the >reading material. On the other hand, a colleague of mine really focused on >sexuality and feminism in her class and received a huge amount of >resistance from her students. Here's an interesting question. Would this >have something to do with the differences in gender between myself and my >colleague? Do students tend to respect male teachers and their >idiosyncratic interests more than female teachers and their interests? Insufficient data: as critical thinking contiues to be eliminated, a potentially important part of your qestion is the ages of the people involved. A "generation gap" hypothesis relating to less and less intellectual capability might account for your data at least as well as a "gender" hypothesis. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:57:20 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: sex scenes While Joanna's comment >Feminist SF sex scenes are anything but boring because there's so >much going on in them besides sex. is worth saying, I'm not sure how far this connects to Poppy Z Brite. I'm probably not really in a position to comment as I completely bogged down in (I think it was) her first novel and couldn't finish it (and can't remember the title), but my distinct impression that she was not a feminist and was not writing from this perspective, a feeling reinforced by press interviews in which she claimed that she was 'really' a gay man (though I believe she has since married, something gay men are not yet generally permitted to do...). I suppose she could claim to be writing from a 'queer'/transgressive perspective? But I think this differs somewhat from feminism. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:30:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Joke: The Future vs. Star Trek Comments: To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ok, it's definitely not written from a feminist point-of-view--but it's still hilarious... Life Will Not Be Like Star Trek ------------------------------- ......................................................... Written by Scott Adams, published in "The Dilbert Future" by HarperBusiness. Copyright United Media, 1997. Please keep this notice with the text if you forward it by e-mail. ......................................................... There are so many Star Trek(tm) spin-offs that it is easy to fool yourself into thinking that the Star Trek vision is an accurate vision of the future. Sadly, Star Trek does not take into account the stupidity, selfishness, and horniness of the average human being. Allow me to describe some of the more obvious errors in the Star Trek vision. Medical Technology ------------------ On Star Trek, the doctors have hand-held devices that instantly close any openings in the skin. Imagine that sort of device in the hands of your unscrupulous friends. They would sneak up behind you and seal your ass shut as a practical joke. The devices would be sold in novelty stores instead of medical outlets. All things considered, I'm happy that it's not easy to close other people's orifices. Transporter ----------- It would be great to be able to beam your molecules across space and then reassemble them. The only problem is that you have to trust your co-worker to operate the transporter. These are the same people who won't add paper to the photocopier or make a new pot of coffee after taking the last drop. I don't think they'll be double-checking the transporter coordinates. They'll be accidentally beaming people into walls, pets, and furniture. People will spend all their time apologizing for having inanimate objects protruding from parts of their bodies. 'Pay no attention to the knickknacks; I got beamed into a hutch yesterday.' If I could beam things from one place to another, I'd never leave the house. I'd sit in a big comfy chair and just start beaming groceries, stereo equipment, cheerleaders, and anything else I wanted right into my house. I'm fairly certain I would abuse this power. If anybody came to arrest me, I'd beam them into space. If I wanted some paintings for my walls, I'd beam the contents of the Louvre over to my place, pick out the good stuff, and beam the rest into my neighbor's garage. If I were watching the news on television and didn't like what I heard, I would beam the anchorman into my living room during the commercial break, give him a vicious wedgie, and beam him back before anybody noticed. I'd never worry about 'keeping up with the Joneses,' because as soon as they got something nice, it would disappear right out of their hands. My neighbors would have to use milk crates for furniture. And that's only after I had all the milk crates I would ever need for the rest of my life. There's only one thing that could keep me from spending all my time wreaking havoc with the transporter: the holodeck. Holodeck -------- For those of you who only watched the 'old' Star Trek, the holodeck can create simulated worlds that look and feel just like the real thing. The characters on Star Trek use the holodeck for recreation during breaks from work. This is somewhat unrealistic. If I had a holodeck, I'd close the door and never come out until I died of exhaustion. It would be hard to convince me I should be anywhere but in the holodeck, getting my oil massage from Cindy Crawford and her simulated twin sister. Holodecks would be very addicting. If there weren't enough holodecks to go around, I'd get the names of all the people who had reservations ahead of me and beam them into concrete walls. I'd feel tense about it, but that's exactly why I'd need a massage. I'm afraid the holodeck will be society's last invention. Sex with Aliens --------------- According to Star Trek, there are many alien races populated with creatures who would like to have sex with humans. This would open up a lot of anatomical possibilities, but imagine the confusion. It's hard enough to have sex with human beings, much less humanoids. One wrong move and you're suddenly transported naked to the Gamma Quadrant to stand trial for who-knows-what. This could only add to performance anxiety. You would never be quite sure what moves would be sensual and what moves would be a galactic-sized mistake. Me Trying to Have Sex with an Alien ----------------------------------- Me: May I touch that? Alien: That is not an erogenous zone. It is a separate corporeal being that has been attached to my body for six hundred years. Me: It's cute. I wonder if it would let me have sex with it. Alien: That's exactly what I said six hundred years ago. The best part about having sex with aliens, according to the Star Trek model, is that the alien always dies a tragic death soon afterward. I don't have to tell you how many problems that would solve. Realistically, the future won't be that convenient. Phasers ------- I would love to have a device that would stun people into unconsciousness without killing them. I would use it ten times a day. If I got bad service at the convenience store, I'd zap the clerk. If somebody with big hair sat in front of me at the theater, zap! On Star Trek, there are no penalties for stunning people with phasers. It happens all the time. All you have to do is claim you were possessed by an alien entity. Apparently, that is viewed as a credible defense in the Star Trek future. Imagine real criminals in a world where the 'alien possession' defense is credible. Criminal: Yes, officer, I did steal that vehicle, and I did kill the occupants, but I was possessed by an evil alien entity. Officer: Well, okay. Move along. I wish I had a phaser right now. My neighbor's dog likes to stand under my bedroom window on the other side of the fence and bark for hours at a time. My neighbor has employed the bold defense that he believes it might be another neighbor's dog, despite the fact that I am standing there looking at him barking only twenty feet away. In a situation like this, a phaser is really the best approach. I could squeeze off a clean shot through the willow tree. A phaser doesn't make much noise, so it wouldn't disturb anyone. Then the unhappy little dog and I could both get some sleep. If the neighbor complains, I'll explain that the phaser was fired by the other neighbor's dog, a known troublemaker who is said to be invisible. And if that doesn't work, a photon torpedo is clearly indicated. Cyborgs ------- Given the choice, I would rather be a cyborg instead of 100 percent human. I like the thought of technology becoming part of my body. As a human, I am constantly running to the toolbox in my garage to get a tool to deal with some new household malfunction. If I were a cyborg, I might have an electric drill on my arm, plus a metric socket set. That would save a lot of trips. From what I've seen, the cyborg concept is a modular design, so you can add whatever tools you think you'd use most. I'd love to see cross-hairs appear in my viewfinder every time I looked at someone. It would make me feel menacing, and I'd like that. I'd program myself so that anytime I saw a car salesman, a little message would appear in my viewfinder that said 'Target Locked On.' It would also be great to have my computer built into my skull. That way I could surf the Net during useless periods of life, such as when people talk to me. All I'd have to do is initiate a head-nodding subroutine during boring conversations and I could amuse myself in my head all day long. I think that if anyone could become a cyborg, there would be a huge rush of people getting in line for the conversion. Kids would like it for the look. Adults would like it for its utility. Cyborg technology has something for everyone. So, unlike Star Trek, I can imagine everyone wanting to be a cyborg. The only downside I can see is that when the human part dies and you're at the funeral, the cyborg part will try to claw its way out of the casket and slay all the mourners. But that risk can be minimized by saying you have an important business meeting, so you can't make it to the service. Shields ------- I wish I had an invisible force field. I'd use it all the time, especially around people who spit when they talk or get too close to my personal space. In fact, I'd probably need a shield quite a bit if I also had a phaser to play with. I wouldn't need a big shield system like the one they use to protect the Enterprise, maybe just a belt-clip device for personal use. I could insult dangerous people without fear of retribution. Whatever crumbs of personality I now have would be completely unnecessary in the future. On the plus side, it would make shopping much more fun. Shopping with Shields Up ------------------------ Me: Ring this up for me, you unpleasant cretin. Saleswoman: I oughta slug you! Me: Try it. My shields are up. Saleswoman: Damn! Me: There's nothing you can do to harm me. Saleswoman: I guess you're right. Would you like to open a charge account? Our interest rates are very reasonable. Me: Nice try. Long-Range Sensors ------------------ If people had long-range sensors, they would rarely use them to scan for new signs of life. I think they would use them to avoid work. You could run a continuous scan for your boss and then quickly transport yourself out of the area when he came near. If your manager died in his office, you would know minutes before the authorities discovered him, and that means extra break time. Vulcan Death Grip ----------------- Before all you Trekkies write to correct me, I know there is no such thing as a Vulcan Death Grip even in Star Trek. But I wish there were. That would have come in handy many times. It would be easy to make the Vulcan Death Grip look like an accident. 'I was just straightening his collar and he collapsed.' I think the only thing that keeps most people from randomly killing other citizens is the bloody mess it makes and the high likelihood of getting caught. With the Vulcan Death Grip, it would be clean and virtually undetectable. Everybody would be killing people left and right. You wouldn't be able to have a decent conversation at the office over the sound of dead co-workers hitting the carpet. The most common sounds in corporate America would be, 'I'm sorry I couldn't give you a bigger raise, but . . . erk!' And that's why the future won't be like Star Trek. hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:05:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Librarians' salaries << _Babes with Books_, definitely. (Maybe Esther Friesner would consider it. I hear she's doing a second Chicks in Chainmail anthology.) >> Oh goody. I loved the first one!! I had to chuckle, too, reflecting that Friesner has more than earned her feminist credentials with _Psalms of Herod_ & _Sword of Mary_. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:27:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Poppy Z. Brite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I believe Poppy has actually claimed to be "a gay man trapped in a woman's body." Draw your own conclusions... I have only read her first book, for rather odd reasons. I read the final 2/3 sitting in a hospital emergency room trying to find out what had brought my husband to his knees in agony, and thence. Therefore, there is this inexcapable association between Poppy's works and his pain and hospital smells. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:59:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Master i Margarita Comments: To: MARINA YERESHENKO In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: _Animal Farm_ is, I believe, the Orwell title to which you're referring. I read it as a pre-teen, and missed the political implications because I was too young to understand them. However, I did grasp most of the moral implications of the novel, and very much enjoyed it. I was a much more flexible reader as a child. Paka, -nalo On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > Nalo, > Sorry it took me so long. My mail program crashed and I was just able to > recover last week messages. > > Confusion about who wrote _1984_ is no big deal. Nichego strashnogo :) . > I read another story by Orwell, I believe it's original title was > something like _Pigs Barn_. It was good, but a little straightforward. > More politics than fiction. > > Marina > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > > > > > > > Nalo, > > > > > > title while translating the book. I never read _1984_, though. Isn't it > > > by George Orwell? > > > > NH: Damn, yeah, it is. I don't even have the excuse of advancing age, > > not really. > > > > -nalo > > > > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." > > -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, > > "Nature's Pictures," 1656 > > > > > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:47:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > I taught Samuel Delany's _Tales from Nerveryon_ last year in a freshman > composition class. The odd thing is that the students didn't seem to > complain about the presence of a homosexual relationship between Gorgik and > Small Sarg. It was the women who were most open to reading and discussing > these issues. The male students seemed to be somewhat discomforted by the > reading material. On the other hand, a colleague of mine really focused on > sexuality and feminism in her class and received a huge amount of > resistance from her students. Here's an interesting question. Would this > have something to do with the differences in gender between myself and my > colleague? Do students tend to respect male teachers and their > idiosyncratic interests more than female teachers and their interests? > > Erik > Erik, I'm going to hazard a guess, based on my own experience, that you got away with discussing Delany's gay stories without too much resistance, in part, because your male students were so uncomfortable that they couldn't bring themselves to say anything. I also know from experience that it can be easier for a male teacher than a female teacher to get away with discussing feminist and gender-related topics in class, at least when it comes to dealing with less advanced students. I share the teaching of children's literature classes in my department with another colleague. My female colleague and I developed our syllabus together and we both deal with such controversial topics as gender roles, same-sex marriages, kids deciding that they're gay, sex education, child abuse, and incest, and their presentation in books for children. Because we developed the syllabus together, I know that my colleague and I are pretty much in agreement on these topics. Neither of us is notably more radical in our thinking than the other, despite the fact that Virginia is an out lesbian whereas I'm hetrosexual. Yet, when it comes to class discussion (and also teacher evaluation forms), Virginia gets a lot more resistance than I do. Partly, I expect, it's the whole gender-based respect thing (female teachers often have to work harder to gain their students' respect than do male teachers), but it also has to do with the students not knowing quite what to make of a male teacher talking a feminist line. Because my colleague fits their stereotyped idea of a radical feminist, she's easier to argue with. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The only Poppy Z. Brite which I've ever read was her most recent novel, Exquisite Corpse, which I unfortunately had to finish because I was being paid to review it by a major magazine on a short deadline with no time to hand the book over to someone else. Damn it, though, the book very nearly made me throw up. I know that Brite is considered a really hot writer and I know that she's talented, and I know that she's particularly popular in the gay horror-fiction reading community, so perhaps I'm being small minded, but yuck! retch! (Having written the above paragraph I then went on to briefly describe some of the action in the novel, which involves SIMULTANEOUS torture, murder, necrophilia and cannibalism, but decided to censor myself for fear of sending some more tender minded soul into hysterics or a quick trip to the bathroom, hand clenched over mouth.) And I generally like horror fiction! Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:08:37 +0000 Reply-To: k.willshaw@chester.ac.uk Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: k.willshaw@CHESTER.AC.UK Subject: Contact movie in the UK Hi When I was quite a lot younger I read the book "Contact" by Carl Sagan and it was one of those books that really made a difference to the way I looked at myself. This was because the main character, Ellie, was a woman physicist. This inspired me in an awful lot of ways and I am now doing a Phd in a science subject because I felt that I could believe in my abilities and intelligence and in some ways this book helped. Anyway to get to the point of this message, does anyone know if Contact has a release date in the UK because I cant bear the thought that I am not going to be able to see this adaptation of one of the best books I remember reading as an impressionable teenager! yours waiting with bated breath to see this movie Kate PS this is my first attempt at writing to a net discussion group, having been lurking for a few days so please excuse the style! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: Poppy Z. Brite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lesley Hall wrote: >[M]y distinct impression that she was not a feminist and was not >writing from this perspective, a feeling reinforced by press interviews in >which she claimed that she was 'really' a gay man (though I believe she has >since married, something gay men are not yet generally permitted to do...). I >suppose she could claim to be writing from a 'queer'/transgressive >perspective? But I think this differs somewhat from feminism. Does a "queer" perspective really differ from a feminist one? I think Eve Sedgwick and Judith Butler might say no, since their theoretical work tends to cross through both those perspectivs. Poppy Z. Brite's novels may not be feminist per se, but could we, following Cixous, call her work *ecriture feminine*? Could it be not so much the content of what she writes as the way she writes that would make her a feminist writer? This is of course more in the French tradition of feminist writing which goes against American practicality. American feminist writers tend to be very interested in the politics of content. French feminist writers are more interested in the politics of form. That may be oversimplifying the difference though. Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: sexuality in feminist sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mike Levy wrote: > [W]hen it comes to class discussion (and also teacher evaluation forms), >Virginia gets a lot more resistance than I do. Partly, I expect, it's the >whole gender-based respect thing (female teachers often have to work harder >to gain their students' respect than do male teachers), but it also has to >do with the students not knowing quite what to make of a male teacher talking >a feminist line. Because my colleague fits their stereotyped idea of a >radical feminist, she's easier to argue with. It's funny. I get the sense that students actually are more receptive to feminist theory/criticism when it's a man who is teaching it to them. I don't know if that's true or not in all cases, but definitely when I've taught essays and stories written from a feminist perspective, the students tend to be more receptive to it than when my women colleagues have attempted to teach the same material. Maybe it's because they never realized that men could be feminists, and as you said it's easier to argue with someone who might, more obviously, fit the stereotype of a radical feminist. Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:33:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > I pretty much agree with Tanya's and other's analysis of male-female > power relationships in Contact, but with one suggestion. > The black, female presidential assistant, played by Angela Bassett, is > considerably more than just a good source of information on where to buy > a nice dress. She has considerable power and uses it as needed, for > example when Drummond (Drumlin? whatever) is trying to completely take > over the project and she, pretty much by executive fiat, states that > Ellie will continue to have day to day control over operations. I half agree here: yes, the Angela Basset character clearly does have alot power dealing with realpolitik rather than idealism. However when she makes Ellie the operations controller (with Drummond having overall administrative control) it is clear that this is a sop thrown to Ellie in exchange for her silence. Shortly afterwards Palmer comments that Ellie has been more or less given walking orders, and when Ellie looks puzzled, he adds something like "or you are at least being handed your hat".Ellie is on the out and out, and the support of the Bassett character is strictly provisonal, if not illusionary. The only suggestion that they might really share anything in common, comes in the dress scene. Apart from this, I don't think there is really any female networking going on here. The divison between politics and science that the movie postulates is too wide. > I wonder how much of Ellie's isolation from female co-workers is simply the > usual male-authored cliche on Sagan's part and how much of it is the way > things still are (or were when Sagan wrote the book in the late 1980s) > for women working in the hard sciences. Anyone here have the kind of > background to comment on this from first hand experience? > > Mike I'm sure that Sagan's depiction of Ellie's all male scientific team is realistic in terms of when Sagan wrote the novel (and probably even now) but the complete lack of women in Ellie's life (not that she precisely has one) is worthly of note: no female freinds, no relatives, nada. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have trouble considering Poppy Z. Brite a feminist author. All female characters in her books are overshadowed by the men, who are usually androgynous and can pass for women. I've read all her books ("Lost Souls", "Drawing Blood", "Wormwood", and "Exquisite Corpse"), and I've come to the conclusion that she is basically a hack. And not a very good one at that. When I first read "Lost Souls", I liked it. She can do wonderful descriptions of the South, which I suppose is her one saving grace. I then read "Drawing Blood" which I also liked. "Wormwood", her short story collection, is also good. Then I read "Exquisite Corpse". And that was just plain BAD. It wasn't the gore that got me, it was the writing, the plot, the sheer brainlessness of it. Living in New Orleans, and leaning towards the subculture known as "Gothic", I also saw that Brite was, essentially, stealing her ideas from a variety of sources. The climatic torture scene in "Exquisite Corpse" was stolen, almost image by image, from the bootleg Nine Inch Nails video for the "Broken" ep. Maybe it's because she's living in New Orleans...maybe it's because she wrote about vampires...Poppy Z. Brite is slipping into Anne Rice mode. It doesn't matter how bad it is, people will buy it and consider it wonderful. Kate Bolin who just woke up and shouldn't be discussing horror writers right now ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I'm already in the gutter....next stop, it's the drain..." Alien Sex Fiend "I Walk The Line" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:29:59 +0100 Reply-To: L Garforth Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: L Garforth Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > there is also the question of the > environment. The planet is under constant attack, for example, by large > corporations & the politicians that support them. It disturbs me that the > water & air continue to be polluted, the rainforests are being decimated, > toxic & nuclear waste threaten many communities ( I was in Eastern Europe > during the Chernobyl disaster - it was pretty terrifying), cancer has > reached epidemic proporations (especially breast cancer) etc. while we > spend billions in space. What are the effects of the space program on the > Earth's environment? What are the effects of environmental destruction on > our bodies, right here on earth? > I don't really have an opinion one way or another on the rights and wrongs of space exploration, but I suppose my position is quite close to what you outline above. Since this is a lit group, could I mention a novel by Catherine Bush _Minus Time_ that juxtaposes precisely these two issues? I guess it's sf, insofar as it seems to be a near future thing and concerns woman-in-space. It's a while since I read it, but as I remember, mother is involved in space program whilst daughter back on earth grows increasingly concerned about/active in environmental protest/industrial sabotage. I don't _think_ Bush ever explicitly discusses the potentially contradictory relationship between human societies' (and individuals') desires to explore (colonise?) other worlds and our pathetic inability to even treat our own right. I suppose rather that the structure of the novel is intended to problematise the connection. I wasn't sure what to make of it at the time - anyone else seen it? I should maybe say hello, being new to this (and in fact all!) groups? I'm not exclusively an sf reader, but I do dabble, and I do love feminst utopian/dystopian sf. I'm a research graduate at Univ. York England looking at how utopian and science fiction writing addresses environmental issues in creating future worlds. My feeling is that utopian and science fiction do better work in offering us sustainable futures than do academic/activist/policy environmentalist discourses. It seems to me (at a fairly early stage of work) that the most fleshed out and compelling green futures come out of feminist work - I'm thinking mainly of _Woman on the Edge of Time_ and Tikva in _Body of Glass_ here. Any suggestions for further reading welcome - although given the wide range of contributions to this list, I suspect I've missed loads already? Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Birth Control Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:48 AM 7/16/97, Martha Bartter wrote: >The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the >whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group >actually like the Ik had even existed. Good God -- not another Tasaday Incident! This century is miserably rich in fancy public baloney. Anybody notice, for example, that the corpses of the newly-slain dead in Timsoara during the Bosnian War a couple of years ago were in fact a neat row of ancient, yellowed cadavers hauled out of the local medical school and morgue for the occasion? I *thought* they looked awfully odd at the time, later found confirmation in an article in, I think, the Manchester Guardian. Oy. This isn't the Information Age. It's the Age of Fakes. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:19:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:51 PM 7/15/97, Ann Wheeler wrote: >I've just seen _Contact_, and I would be interested in hearing how other >people react to the female characters in the film. While I think that >there's much to like about Ellie, the Jodie Foster character, I wish that she >had some contact with other women at some point in the film. See, there's this problem, as it is perceived: IF you actually have a major female character with the normal complement of female friends, relations, enemies, colleagues, etc., THEN she is going to complain mightily to those very female cohorts about the crap she is being force-fed by the men in power; well, what the hell *else* are they going to talk about, if they're supposed to be close to her and she's having all this trouble? This intru- sion of the real world necessarily throws the whole story off course. It becomes centered on that conflict instead of on the Great Project. (See also altering Readercon programming, which is actually not another story but the same one, of course). So it's "easier" to *show* the sexist crap happening to a woman with no significant female others in her life, and letting the omitted discussion go on among women in the audience afterward, where it won't distract and disturb men who want to see stuff about alien contact, pop. science, and Big Ideas (except feminism, socialism, etc.). Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:26:03 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Mars In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 12:39 PM 7/14/97, Laura Wigod wrote: > >>Feminism is about equality for women, so, as abhorrent as a character such >>as Thatcher is, it's still progress for womankind! (sigh) I realize it's >>difficult to acknowledge that women are as capable of all the -isms as any >>man, but that's the way it is! > >Yes -- the idea, I thought, was that women should be able to be just as >big a jerk as a man and get the same kind of rewards out of it that that >man would. > >Suzy Haha! Irony noted...... This will sound a little twisted, but.......shortly after OJ Simpson murdered Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman, that woman (whose name now escaped me - Susan Mitchell?) on the East Coast (whose state now escapes me - North Carolina?) murdered her two children. Naturally, I was HORRIFIED, as anyone should be, but, in another part of my brain, I thought the timing was perfect. After the Simpson/Goldman murders, there was a lot of anti-male energy floating around - lots of articles about domestic violence and men who kill and athletes who are violent, etc. I thought the murder of those two children was a nice reminder that violence is not the sole domain of men and that women are equally capable of such vile acts. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:20:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:01 AM 7/17/97, Michael Marc Levy wrote: >(Having written the above paragraph I then went on to briefly describe >some of the action in the novel, which involves SIMULTANEOUS torture, >murder, necrophilia and cannibalism, but decided to censor myself for fear >of sending some more tender minded soul into hysterics or a quick trip to >the bathroom, hand clenched over mouth.) > >And I generally like horror fiction! R.L.Stine for "grown-ups". Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:20:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: sexuality in feminist sf (was sex scenes) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:47 PM 7/16/97, Michael Marc Levy wrote: >Yet, when it comes to class discussion (and also teacher evaluation forms), >Virginia gets a lot more resistance than I do. Partly, I expect, it's the >whole gender-based respect thing (female teachers often have to work harder >to gain their students' respect than do male teachers), Female teachers are often seen as a surrogate MOM, to be resisted, mocked, undermined, etc. at any and every opportunity (UNLESS a female teacher is really good at what she does and overwhelms this knee-jerk kid-attitude, although it is never possible to accomplish this with all the kids in a given class; somebody will always be proof against even your very best). Male teachers are seen as that (usually) distant and thus romanticized authority figure, DAD, and if they do not make themselves utterly ridicu- lous from the get-go have a somewhat better chance of being obeyed, if not respected (or, sometimes, even loved for their resemblance to certain bumbling tv DADs whom kids are taught to regard as lovable. There are few lovabel MOMs on tv, mostly silly, dangerous, horrible, or sick-and-dying pathetic ones). And no kids freely and comfortably discuss any aspects of sex with their parents or surrogates thereof. All this is full-of-holes-and-exceptions (thank gods) generalization derived from several years teach jr. high school in the mid-sixties (I loved doing it, too, and I miss those times. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:39:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Mars Comments: To: L Garforth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good to see Catherine Bush's work entering the dialogue here, not only because she's a fellow Torontonian, but also because she received a writing grant from Toronto Arts Council to work on that project. Slightly before my time, I think, but I'm the Lit. Grants Officer for Toronto Arts Council, so I take an interest. (But have you read the novel, they ask? Sadly, sheepishly, no.) -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite It must also be remembered, of course, that feminism is always relative: Brite might really be struggling hard with what to her *are* feminist issues, even though some of us might regard them as pre-101 stuff, the alphabet we had to understand before we could even read, never mind take advanced courses. Having said that, I loathe her work. Ugh, indeed. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:47:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, SMCharnas wrote: > At 8:48 AM 7/16/97, Martha Bartter wrote: > > >The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the > >whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group > >actually like the Ik had even existed. > > Good God -- not another Tasaday Incident! This century is miserably > rich in fancy public baloney. Oy. This isn't the > Information Age. It's the Age of Fakes. NH: At Readercon this weekend past, Chip Delany predicted on a panel that one big issue for this age will be Disinformation. I had a shock recently too, when I was substantially into the writing of a novel whose premise had to do with bootlegging of human body parts in third world countries. Thought I'd done my research--everything from tv documentaries through journal articles and web-surfing. Then I began to find claims that a lot of the information was bogus. Found enough information both confirming and disproving the 'facts' that finally I had no clue whom to believe. I had to abandon the premise altogether and recobble my novel out of the remaining bits. Brr. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: FW: WOC Alert 7/16/97 - CBS commentary I'll beg forgiveness for posting something decidedly off-topic, but I happened to see this commentary and was thoroughly annoyed. Now I know why!! Nicole << Last week, the so-called Independent Women's Forum scored a triple win with prominent attacks on feminism generally, and the National Organization for Women (NOW) in particular, in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the CBS Sunday Evening News. In each case, feminists were attacked for being out of touch and not representative of most women. Their case in point? NOW's opposition to the Promise Keepers. "Women want their men to keep their promises," said these cheerleaders for the right. Carefully left out of the discussion was the Promise Keepers' links to Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition, the fact that Promise Keepers rallies are training grounds for men to "take back their rightful place as head of the families, ... and make their wives submit to their leadership," and their virulent and hateful homophobia. At least The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal labeled the opinion as such, and gave the source of the opinions. But at no time did CBS identify the IWF's Laura Ingraham as anything more than a "commentator." The video accompanying the piece featured women interviewed -- not about the NOW stand against the Promise Keepers -- about the word feminism and whether men should keep their promises. And the perky blonde Ingraham could easily be mistaken for a telejournalist (as least in looks -- she is neither old nor unattractive and is properly deferential to men -- just the kind the guys in the front office like). It boggles the mind that CBS thinks it is appropriate to have Ingraham as a commentator, let alone fail to mention her bias. She sprang full blown as a media star, a creation of the right wing. And she strikes us as relevant to most women and their families as a singing pig -- the singing pig's novelty wears off once you realize that she sings off key and gets the words wrong! CBS has an obligation to let its viewers know that Ingraham represents only herself and her right wing masters. If CBS insists on carrying her novelty act -- "Look! A woman against women's rights!" -- they must inform the public of her political agenda. ACTION: Let CBS know how you feel about their attempt to validate the right wing by carrying Laura Ingraham's commentary without identifying her bias. Email CBS at <> and call your local CBS affiliate. Only you can stop the backlash! Please Post Widely! Women Leaders Online/Women Organizing for Change PO Box 11019, Washington DC 20008 Voice: 202-861-4730 Fax: 202-364-3018 E-mail: wlo@wlo.org Web: http://wlo.org To subscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: subscribe WOC firstname lastname To unsubscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: unsubscribe WOC To change your address, unsubscribe from your old address and subscribe from your new address. >> --------------------- Forwarded message: From: robinred@msn.com (Robin Rothrock) Sender: owner-netbytes@mailer.hotrock.com Reply-to: netbytes@mailer.hotrock.com To: netbytes@mailer.hotrock.com (Netbytes) Date: 97-07-17 02:32:08 EDT WOC Alert 7/16/97 - Congress to Poor Worldwide: Just Say No; CBS Says 'Welcome Home' to the Stepford Wives As Congress considers the FY 1998 Appropriations Bill, there is a move (inspired by the Christian Coalition and Concerned Women for America) to institute a global gag rule -- denying poor women the right to be told anything about abortion by their health care workers -- and, just it case that doesn't work, to totally slash all funds for international family planning. Can't you just hear their logic? It's as if they are saying, "If you can't afford birth control or more children, just say no to sex -- control yourselves, you brazen hussies!" Of course, we suspect that the need for an even cheaper labor pool for the global economy may be as important a reason as their blatant hatred of poor women. But whatever the reasons, we cannot let the House and Senate get away with this outrage. Even with international family planning available now, there is still a shocking maternal death rate -- one women dies every 3 minutes from illegal abortion. And we know that restrictions on birth control and lack of knowledge of safe, legal abortion will drive that death rate up astronomically. ACTION: Email your Member of Congress <> and your Senators <> or call them (Capital Switchboard - 202/225-3121) immediately. Urge them to vote FOR international family planning funding and AGAINST the global gag rule. Cheerleaders of the Right Win the Triple Crown Last week, the so-called Independent Women's Forum scored a triple win with prominent attacks on feminism generally, and the National Organization for Women (NOW) in particular, in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the CBS Sunday Evening News. In each case, feminists were attacked for being out of touch and not representative of most women. Their case in point? NOW's opposition to the Promise Keepers. "Women want their men to keep their promises," said these cheerleaders for the right. Carefully left out of the discussion was the Promise Keepers' links to Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition, the fact that Promise Keepers rallies are training grounds for men to "take back their rightful place as head of the families, ... and make their wives submit to their leadership," and their virulent and hateful homophobia. At least The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal labeled the opinion as such, and gave the source of the opinions. But at no time did CBS identify the IWF's Laura Ingraham as anything more than a "commentator." The video accompanying the piece featured women interviewed -- not about the NOW stand against the Promise Keepers -- about the word feminism and whether men should keep their promises. And the perky blonde Ingraham could easily be mistaken for a telejournalist (as least in looks -- she is neither old nor unattractive and is properly deferential to men -- just the kind the guys in the front office like). It boggles the mind that CBS thinks it is appropriate to have Ingraham as a commentator, let alone fail to mention her bias. She sprang full blown as a media star, a creation of the right wing. And she strikes us as relevant to most women and their families as a singing pig -- the singing pig's novelty wears off once you realize that she sings off key and gets the words wrong! CBS has an obligation to let its viewers know that Ingraham represents only herself and her right wing masters. If CBS insists on carrying her novelty act -- "Look! A woman against women's rights!" -- they must inform the public of her political agenda. ACTION: Let CBS know how you feel about their attempt to validate the right wing by carrying Laura Ingraham's commentary without identifying her bias. Email CBS at <> and call your local CBS affiliate. Only you can stop the backlash! AND NOW, A NOTE FROM OUR SPONSOR: If you have not yet sent in your donation to be part of Women Leaders Online, we really need your support. Your contribution of $100, $50, $25, $10 -- or whatever you can spare -- can help keep our financially-challenged but dedicated staff paid and our alerts flying across the Net. Although contributions to our 501(c)4 organization are not tax deductible, doing good is its own reward! So please send your contribution today to: Women Leaders Online, P.O. Box 11019, Washington, DC 20008, with your e-mail address on your check. For credit card donations, e-mail us with the best time to contact you so we can obtain the required information. Please visit our website at http://wlo.org. Thank you! ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Please Post Widely! Women Leaders Online/Women Organizing for Change PO Box 11019, Washington DC 20008 Voice: 202-861-4730 Fax: 202-364-3018 E-mail: wlo@wlo.org Web: http://wlo.org To subscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: subscribe WOC firstname lastname To unsubscribe, mailto:listserv@listserv.aol.com with the message: unsubscribe WOC To change your address, unsubscribe from your old address and subscribe from your new address. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:42:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women And as for the dress incident...let's say you're a really brilliant scientist who's used to running around in practical clothes in the desert. And you have some idea how to show up in a good suit to give a presentation. Then all of a sudden you're invited to this really fancy schmancy Washington cocktail party, and it's vitally important that you show up and make a good impression. Now, *wouldn't* you turn to a woman who knows about such things for a bit of advice?? As for the romantic interest--if she *hadn't* had one, everybody would be complaining about how women scientists are portrayed as frigid, unable to have human relationships. And isn't it human nature be attracted to people who are very different than we are, at least sometimes? And if nothing else, it *did* serve the plot well, and provided that nice final moment of irony in a way that people could relate to. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:16:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: The Age of Fakes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:18 7/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 8:48 AM 7/16/97, Martha Bartter wrote: > >>The last I heard about that, someone had pretty well proved that the >>whole scandal had been either invented or exaggerated -- that no group >>actually like the Ik had even existed. > >Good God -- not another Tasaday Incident! This century is miserably >rich in fancy public baloney. Anybody notice, for example, that the >corpses of the newly-slain dead in Timsoara during the Bosnian War a >couple of years ago were in fact a neat row of ancient, yellowed cadavers >hauled out of the local medical school and morgue for the occasion? I >*thought* they looked awfully odd at the time, later found confirmation >in an article in, I think, the Manchester Guardian. Oy. This isn't the >Information Age. It's the Age of Fakes. > >Suzy > I guess the main difference between now and, say, the late 19th C is that the fakes get more validation because the publicity is so very well done? Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:51:08 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: female/feminist teachers (was sexuality in feminist sf, formerly sex scenes) Suzy M Charnas comments >Female teachers are often seen as a surrogate MOM, to be resisted, >mocked, undermined, etc. at any and every opportunity and also, I'd hypothesise on the basis of the experience of friends of mine in the academic world, wanted to be far more nurturant above and beyond any reasonable expectation, than any man would ever be assumed to be. (Especially, my highly anecdotal evidence suggests, by women students.) As an archivist/research historians who is at a late stage/age and with much tentativeness, moving in to doing some part-time university teaching, this all rather adds to my feelings of trepidation! Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:57:09 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Thanks, Nicola, for the salutory reminder that >It must also be remembered, of course, that feminism is always >relative: Brite might really be struggling hard with what to her *are* >feminist issues, even though some of us might regard them as pre- >101 stuff, the alphabet we had to understand before we could even >read, never mind take advanced courses. I will remember that next time I read something in which the female protagonist seems to be 'one of the boys' an honorary man without a context of female friends and support, in fact with other women often positioned as rivals and enemies. As a historian whose field is partly women's history, I notice that I and other people in the field are often kinder to the contradictions of women in the past than in the present (except, of course, for the ones who are harsher towards them!) Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:40:06 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Erik Tsai suggests >Does a "queer" perspective really differ from a feminist one? I think Eve >Sedgwick and Judith Butler might say no, since their theoretical work >tends to cross through both those perspectivs. Poppy Z. Brite's novels >may not be feminist per se, but could we, following Cixous, call her work >*ecriture feminine*? Could it be not so much the content of what she >writes as the way she writes that would make her a feminist writer? This >is of course more in the French tradition of feminist writing which goes >against American practicality. American feminist writers tend to be very >interested in the politics of content. French feminist writers are more >interested in the politics of form. That may be oversimplifying the >difference though. Perhaps I should clarify: I actually found Brite's work tending towards misogyny, or at least a distinct privileging of male experience (gay or not) over female. Not just not overtly feminist. Whatever the French theories of 'ecriture feminine' (and I'm not sure PB is practising this), I should point out that politically and economically French women were well in arrears of much the rest of Western Europe for quite some time (e.g. didn't get the vote until 1945). It could be that emphasising a cultural and separate spheres mode is/was to some extent the result of a situation where other rights were unavailable or highly contested. I may be wrong! Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Erik Tsao Sent: 17 July 1997 12:08 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Poppy Z. Brite Lesley Hall wrote: >[M]y distinct impression that she was not a feminist and was not >writing from this perspective, a feeling reinforced by press interviews in >which she claimed that she was 'really' a gay man (though I believe she has >since married, something gay men are not yet generally permitted to do...). I >suppose she could claim to be writing from a 'queer'/transgressive >perspective? But I think this differs somewhat from feminism. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:58:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite-- In a message dated 97-07-17 20:00:34 EDT, Kate wrote: << I have trouble considering Poppy Z. Brite a feminist author. All female characters in her books are overshadowed by the men, who are usually androgynous and can pass for women.>> Oh, believe me, I have trouble, too. What I was saying was that if she *considers* herself a feminist (and I don't know if she does or not, but I've met her and I think it would surprise her that others thought she was anti-feminist [hope that twisted construction makes sense to everyone]), then she *is*--by her definition, anyway. Maybe she genuinely believes her work is liberating for women in some way. But maybe she just doesn't give a shit. I don't know. I was just trying to make the point that feminism means different things to different people. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:50:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Charlotte Perkins Gilman fans? In-Reply-To: <970717205817_-558137006@emout06.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those who might be interested: The July 7 issue of Publishers Weekly lists Gilman's With Her in Ourland, a sequel to Herland, as due out from Greenwood ($55 ISBN 0-313-27614-5; pb $15.95 0-275-96077-3) in August. The review is generally positive, though the reviewer makes a point of Gilman's anti-semitism. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. The so-called masters (like Stephen King, Peter Straub, Whitley Streiber, etc.) have broken, and re-set the conventions for the genre. The question is, what do women horror writers, who are obviously dealing with the weighty influences of the predecessors and contemporaries (most of whom are male) and the vicissitudes of their audience, do? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:01:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Animal Farm sequel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I saw that somebody mentioned Animal Farm in a message, I thought I'd recommend *Anarchist Farm* by Jane Doe (it was written by a female deer ;-) ). It was published last year by III Publishing, a small press with some excellent SF and fiction titles. The author's name is a pseudonym, but I found out that the author is a woman when I saw her speaking at the San Francisco Anarchist Book Fair last March. *Anarchist Farm* is pretty funny and insightful. I would say that one could even call it a young adult book. The story revolves around a farm that is a fairly near the farm that was the setting for Animal Farm. The nice owner of the farm dies, so the animals have to decide what to do, so they decide to form an anarchist collective. The story is told from the point of view of a male pig leader who defects from Animal Farm. The animals also have interactions with some forest animals and their human friends, called "The Forest Protectors," which are very like Earth First! The farm eventually faces a threat when other humans come to "dispose" of the farm. I'm sorry that I don't have the contact information for III publishing with me. They publish two other novels which I really liked: *Last Days of Christ the Vampire* by J.G. Eccarius which is about a bunch of punk atheist kids who discover that Christianity is being controlled by vampires, and *A.D.* by Saab Loften, which concerns a future America that is half-controlled by the Nation of Islam. The protagonist, a NOI member in Chicago, becomes radicalized, but before he can do anything, is cryogenically frozen by a mad scientist and then wakes up centuries later to discover an anarchist utopia with time travel. Yeah, it sounds pretty weird, but it was one of the more fascinating SF novels I've read recently. Chuck0 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:34:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Animal Farm sequel In-Reply-To: <0007F29B.1205@aaas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If III Publishing are the same people who publish Saab Lofton, I believe I have their address at home; I have one of his books. I'll check into it when I get home (I'm at work right now), and let any interested people know. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:31:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tamara K. Shaw" Organization: Silverhaven Productions Subject: Re: Animal Farm sequel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CMUNSON wrote: > > Since I saw that somebody mentioned Animal Farm in a message, I thought I'd > recommend *Anarchist Farm* by Jane Doe (it was written by a female deer ;-) > ). It was published last year by III Publishing, a small press with some > excellent SF and fiction titles. I have both "Anarchist Farm" and "The Last Days of Christ The Vampire," from this company. I agree that "Anarchist Farm" is an excellent book. The address for III Publishing is: P.O. Box 1581 Gualala, CA 95445 Blessings, Lilith Silverhair tshaw@toolcity.net http://members.tripod.com/~Lilith_Silverhair/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NESchaadt Subject: Is this a genre? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've just finished two books, _Glimmering_ by Elizabeth Hand and _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ by Sheri Tepper that made me think (understatement of the year--I cried as I finished the Tepper) about feminist speculative, science and utopian fiction. As both deal with the end of the millenia, is there a feminist millenial (is this a word?) sciece fiction? Do feminist writers have a unique view of the year 2000? Are there other titles you -collective- can recommend? Many thanks, NS Nancy E. Schaadt phone: 214 943 4347 fax: 214 946 7887 e-m: nschaadt@txcc.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Is this a genre? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718100300.006a1334@mail.txcc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think Kit Reed's LITTLE SISTERS OF THE APOCALYPSE might also fall there although I haven't read it (so I'm really stepping out on a limb here). On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, NESchaadt wrote: > I've just finished two books, _Glimmering_ by Elizabeth Hand and _Gibbon's > Decline and Fall_ by Sheri Tepper that made me think (understatement of the > year--I cried as I finished the Tepper) about feminist speculative, science > and utopian fiction. As both deal with the end of the millenia, is there a > feminist millenial (is this a word?) sciece fiction? Do feminist writers > have a unique view of the year 2000? Are there other titles you > -collective- can recommend? > Many thanks, > NS > > Nancy E. Schaadt > phone: 214 943 4347 > fax: 214 946 7887 > e-m: nschaadt@txcc.net > Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: A question about the J. Russ book In-Reply-To: from "Laura Quilter" at Jul 18, 97 10:30:39 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi - Could somebody please give me the title again for the new Joanna Russ non-fiction/social theory book that is supposedly coming out soon? I read about it here on the list and checked my local bookstore last night for a release date and the clerk could only give me a blank stare and a barely intelligible response. Thanks Tasia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:25:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:26 AM 7/18/97, Erik Tsao wrote: >Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that >people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror >fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story was. In fact, there is a paragraph or two (about gobbling a boy who has been tormenting my heroine at school) and that's all; it I got the message very clearly that pages and pages of gratuitous gore and flying liver from King, Barker, McCammon et al, you name him, are all in a day's work (well, boys are made from snips and snails etc., right, so what do you expect?) , but a few sentences of carnage from a female author are shocking beyond words because women are sugar and spice and everything nice. Which was in part, I think, what the anthology editor, Lisa Tuttle, meant to explore/expose/explode, of course; and I can hardly complain that the few words I did use, which I chose most carefully for maximum effect, had that effect beyond my wildest dreams. But it bothered me that my very slight outbreak of carnography raised such a reaction, and because of that experience I don't like to see a woman writer criticized for "just doing what the boys do" as if she had no *right* to do it (and make a mint doing it) if she wants to. Of course on this list we are talking about something else: doing what the boys do in order to get the exact same woman-disdaining effect that powers so much of the boys' horror, as if sanc- tioning that nasty misogyny (which maybe she intends to do -- a sort of "I'm not a feminist AND I write whatever pernicious crap I damned please" atti- tude -- and maybe not). And as a general criticism, I dislike sloppy writ- ing and overwritten shock-schlock on principle. So I stand by my remark that this is R.L. Stine for "adults", which applies equally plenty of other writers, and I don't like her work. But I want to distinguish that opinion very clearly from not accepting carnography from women authors under any circumstances. Like every other tool, it all depends on the uses you put it to. I don't like her uses. But as I said, the point is *also* for a woman to be "allowed" to make as much of a jerk of herself as a man and pull down the same rewards that he does. It's this baby-boy-powered culture that sucks. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:20:08 -0400 Reply-To: Jill Gillham Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: So who is on this list? In-Reply-To: <970705132107_714262057@emout06.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Hope Cascio wrote: > us about this list. I've loved science fiction since (and this is embarassing > to me now!) my best friend in seventh grade turned me on to... > Piers Anthony. I read all of the Apprentice Adept books that were out at the You aren't alone on that one actually. I got started on sf/fantasy when a freind at summer camp loaned me "Blue Adept" when I was 10. It was just kind of a revelation that there was something other than the typical juvenile fiction out there I wound up going back and working my way through the branch library's sf section and finding the really good stuff. As far as who I am, I'm a transplanted "Damnyankee" living in Tennessee (the Western part, where there isn't even any good scenery to go with the intolerance and bigotry) cause my husband got a tenure track art job at UT-Martin. Got a BA in Economics and a Masters in Public Policy, neither of which has proven to be very useful in getting a job down here, so I'm going back to school to get a computer science degree on the logic that if you're going to be overqualified to do something, you moght as well be really overqualified. Dependants: one cat, none human. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org jillmari@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ferndock2 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GG d s+ a-- C+++ U P+ L E--- W++ N+++ K+ w--- O M+ V PS++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+++ X R tv+ b++++ DI+++ D--- G e+++ h--- r+++ x+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:10:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, SMCharnas wrote: > writers, and I don't like her work. But I want to distinguish that opinion > very clearly from not accepting carnography from women authors under any > circumstances. Like every other tool, it all depends on the uses you put > it to. I don't like her uses. > > Suzy > "Every tool is a weapon, if you hold it right." ani difranco words to live by, robin. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) In-Reply-To: from "SMCharnas" at Jul 18, 97 11:25:57 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > At 7:26 AM 7/18/97, Erik Tsao wrote: > >Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that > >people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror > >fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. > > I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember > my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- > ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- > ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story > was. In fact, there is a paragraph or two (about gobbling a boy who has > been tormenting my heroine at school) and that's all; it I got the message > very clearly that pages and pages of gratuitous gore and flying liver from > King, Barker, McCammon et al, you name him, are all in a day's work (well, > boys are made from snips and snails etc., right, so what do you expect?) , > but a few sentences of carnage from a female author are shocking beyond > words because women are sugar and spice and everything nice. > Hey - Was this story also anthologized in a collection of science fiction and essays on science fiction meant to be used at the college level as a teaching text? If so, I read it and enjoyed it and must have missed some of the carnage and gore thought to be so shocking. (I liked the story by the way). I personally could take or leave Poppy Brite (for reasons other than her graphic depictions of sex and or violence) but found her work no more shocking or incidentally misogynist than say that of Clive Barker - who takes the sex=death correlation to an all new high. I think that you are quite right is positing that these things have drawn more criticism because they were written by women. > > It's this baby-boy-powered culture that sucks. > > Suzy > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:22:00 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: A question about the J. Russ book -Reply Here's all the pertinent data on that new Joanna Russ book. What Are We Fighting for : Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism by Joanna Russ Hardcover, 560 pages Published by St Martins Pr (Trade) Publication date: September 1, 1997 ISBN: 0312151985 List: $27.95 Reviews and Commentary for What Are We Fighting for : Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism >From Kirkus Reviews, 06/15/97: This ungainly book constitutes Russ's personal canon of classic radical feminist ideas of the 1970s and '80s that are most worth rescuing from small-press and pamphleteering obscurity for use as a basis for recharging the women's movement. Best known as a Nebula Award winning author of science fiction (notably The Female Man, not reviewed), Russ is also a pioneering teacher in women's studies and a feminist critic (How to Suppress Women's Writing, 1983). She is totally exasperated by the development of an academic feminism that has lured too many of her students into following a mainstream careerist model rather than dedicate themselves as rebel outsiders to the pursuit of liberating truth. The perspectives of socialist feminism in early Barbara Ehrenreich and Ann Oakley, the insights of lesbian feminists like Cherie Moraga and Adrienne Rich, and the righteous oppositional stance of women of color theorists like Barbara Smith and Gloria Joseph are what Russ reclaims and seeks to propagate. She criticizes the emphasis on the special psychology of women by theorists like Dorothy Dinnerstein, Nancy Chodorow, and Carol Gilligan for displacing our focus from the psychology of oppression. Her energetic exploration of the complex, paradoxical ways that the interdependent systems of capitalism and patriarchy oppress women and benefit men has its compelling moments. But as Russ spins her web of ideas, she is given to asides, digressions, and burying interesting insights in long footnotes and supplementary chapters mischieviously labeled ``Leftovers.'' There's a lack of pretension and a spirited commitment here that's appealing, but the self-indulgent presentation isn't likely to make new converts. Still, hardy veterans of the feminist wars may find this useful as a refresher course in the bolder feminist ideas of the '70s and '80s and will be moved not only to murmur ``Right on, sister,'' but also to an occasional hoot. -- Copyright #1997, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. Synopsis: A study of the future of feminism calls for a return to the radical roots of feminism's direct political struggle during the 1960s and early 1970s and a move away from the de-politicized focus on women's psychology and personal relations of today. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:01:19 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: A question about the J. Russ book The book is 'What Are We Fighting for : Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism', and amazon.com are recording orders for when it comes out (September I think) Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:15:35 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) At 7:26 AM 7/18/97, Erik Tsao wrote: >Given the reactions I've read to Poppy Z. Brite's work I get the sense that >people on this list don't like her as a writer. Contemporary horror >fiction has been traditionally a male-dominated genre. To dislike a particular writer is not to dismiss an entire genre (not that I'm any great fan of horror.) And, there is a long, though possibly rather neglected, tradition of women's horror writing (going back to the ghost stories of the C19th): in fact, a case could be made that it's been one of those fields which women created, and men then moved in on and made their own. (e.g agriculture (joke?)) and S M Charnas replied [selected text] >I don't like to see a woman writer criticized for "just doing what the boys >do" as if she had no *right* to do it (and make a mint doing it) if she >wants to. >Of course on this list we are talking about something else: doing what >the boys do in order to get the exact same woman-disdaining effect that >powers so much of the boys' horror, as if sanctioning that nasty >misogyny (which maybe she intends to do -- a sort of "I'm >not a feminist AND I write whatever pernicious crap I damned please" >attitude -- and maybe not). And maybe she thinks it's everso feminist (or post-feminist) to be transgressive: I remember reading an essay (? some years ago in, I think, SF Eye) in which the (female) author was arguing that we had to get away from the goody-goody heroine archetype: however, she seemed to be arguing that we should just go for its reverse, as it were Kali instead of the Virgin Mary. Which to me was just buying into a sets of stereotypes with a long long history, not particularly liberatory/empowering to women, and not as creatively productive as depicting women as interesting human beings with both strengths and flaws. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:43:49 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: A question about the J. Russ book -Reply Doh! I forgot to mention that I got the information about Russ's "What Are We Fighting for: Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism" from Amazon Books (www.amazon.com). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: elizabeth hand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a friend. Thoughts on the book? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Re: A question about the J. Russ book -Reply In-Reply-To: from "Freddie Baer" at Jul 18, 97 12:43:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Freddy - I wish it was going to be out in time for me to go on vacation, but we cant have everything. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:52:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: women horror writers (warning: spoiler!) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, SMCharnas wrote: > I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember > my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- > ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- > ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story > was. NH: "Boobs!" I read that story of yours, in _Women Who Run With the Werewolves;_ my co-Clarionista Michael Lucas had his first (I think) published tale in that antho. I remember being shocked by "Boobs," enough that I had to re-read it a couple of times to think about my reaction ;). It was the finality of Kelsey's actions that shocked me more than the brief violence or the gore (though I still do feel sorry for the poor tame doggy-dinners). I enjoyed being shocked into thinking. From what I understand of wolves, they have very clear behavioural codes that signal "I don't want this tension between us to escalate into violence, so I will back down now." Whereas Billy in the story felt he had the right to keep pushing and pushing Kelsey to see how much he could get away with. Well, he found out, and maybe it was unfair, because he didn't know he was dealing with a wolf, not a well-indoctrinated girl, but shit, life's like that. And come to think of it, he'd had a few signals that Kelsey was one to retaliate when provoked. Wolves come off as the more social animals, because they pick their battles for good reasons, not for fun. I have only tried to read one of Poppy Z. Brite's novels, and wasn't compelled enough by it to finish it. So I'm in no position to discuss the merits of her writing. But on general principle, I'm inclined to think that if an artist starts from a position that produces strong reactions in people, that's often not a bad beginning place. I gather from reading other people's opinions on this list that she comes off as being extreme for extremity's sake. Now, *that* I don't find interesting, but maybe she'll progress from there. -nalo "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: elizabeth hand In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 02:45 PM 7/18/97 -0500, Erik Tsao wrote: >Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by >Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a >friend. Thoughts on the book? I believe you mean _Waking the Moon_. I read it last summer and was quite disappointed. I absolutely loved Hand's earlier novel _Winterlong_, and was hoping for something as good -- instead I found a heavy-handed (and much too lengthy) saga whose earthshaking insight was that women can be really evil. The faces of Kali, Othiym, whatever -- how new is it to symbolize women as either devourers or saints? I kept hoping that she would attempt to stretch the boundaries of gender definitions and portray something new, but my persistence was not rewarded. Frankly, I was amazed that this novel won the Tiptree award. Anyone have insight as to why? Or can anyone show me how I'm wrong in my reading of the novel? -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time, was re:Mars/social justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 09:06 AM 7/16/97 +0100, Joan Haran wrote: >I must confess, the "kenners" were something I didn't think very clearly >about. I was too focussed on how the "brooder" might fit into their >society, and the idea that to be equal women had to give up the _power_ to >give birth naturally. Now that we all know about how IVF works, I would >question whether the brooder would fit. "Harvesting" the raw materials >required to create babies outside the womb does not seem to me to be the >choice that would be made by radicals wresting the control of science from >the oppressors. What do you think, Janice? Yes, I should have mentioned the brooder as well. The idea that the "power" to conceive and bear children necessarily creates an imbalance between the sexes is not very convincing to me. It seems akin to the belief that since men on average have a higher percentage of muscle mass than women they will always hold the "power" of physical force over women. Power in either case is largely a matter of perception and social convention. It might have been more plausible to envision a society whose views on childbearing were radically transformed than to come up with a technological fix to the whole issue (which is fraught with its own "power" issues, such as who decides which genes to mix, and what happens if a person doesn't want to be sterilized, etc.). -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:24:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: patricia johnston Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Seems to be a lot of yays/nays re Poppy`s writing. If someone has an e-mail address for her, perhaps she (Poppy) could join the list and join the discussion. Also has anyone read Gate To Women`s Country by Tepper, and what are your thoughts. Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:53:51 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Transgressive Fiction IIRC, the original question was something like, "Why did the students react differently to the homoerotic elements in Poppy Z. Brite than to those in Samuel Delaney?" I would suggest that the main reasons may be found in the books themselves. 1)Brite gets much more explicit in her sex scenes than Delaney does in the Neveryona books (The Delaney of _Hogg_ is a different matter). 2)Brite's writing often falls into the category of splatterpunk aka deathporn. For example, her most recent book, _Exquisite Corpse_ combines a gay love story set in New Orleans with a loving reimagining of the crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer. This genre has some passionate fans, but a lot of people don't care for it. 3)Delaney is by far the better writer (I don't think this is a controversial opinion, but I'm sure I'll be proven wrong.) His worlds are more real, his stories are more serious, and I care about his characters far more. I will follow his narrative almost anywhere, even through hundreds of plotless pages of _Dhalgren_ and the rapes and near-rapes that take place in that book. I think these three aspects of the two books explain the difference in reaction without much reference to the gender of the author (in fact, I think Brite got some slack for being a female in the publication of _Corpse_. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:03:27 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Birth Control Books To contribute to the fertility discussion -- I think it is important to distinguish between malnutrition and starvation. Starvation is caused by inadequate caloric intake, and that is what causes anorexics, Olympic gymnasts, famine victims, etc. to stop having periods (or to never get them, if they are adolescents. This is why some adult female gymnasts have the bodies of prepubescent girls.) Malnutrition, on the other hand, is caused by a diet which lacks one or more essential nutrients. It is possible to have malnutrition with excessive caloric intake if you eat a lot of junk food, for example. The tea and toast diet that Marina Yereshenko mentions being common in Tajikistan probably has enough calories to maintain fertility but is seriously lacking in protein, vitamins and minerals. Women on such a diet who have babies will deplete their own body stores to supply the fetus, and then will deplete them further through breastfeeding. A steady chain of pregancies under those conditions is draining and dangerous to the mother. The baby also has problems as soon as it is weaned; there is an African disease called "kwashiorkor", which means "the disease the first baby gets when the second baby is born." This is the disease that causes the bulging abdomens in the rail-thin children in photos from the Ethiopian famine back in the 80's. Kwashiorkor is caused by protein deficiency, resulting from the child switching from high-protein milk to an extremely low-protein grain diet. Regarding science fiction: Charles Oberndorf's _Foragers_ focuses on a humanoid race similar to men, but much less social. In primate terms, they are like orangutans while humans are more like bonobo chimpanzees. One of the major conflicts of the book is a pregnant humanoid who knows she is expecting twins and is trying to get someone to adopt her second child, as she knows she will be unable to raise two babies on her own. _Foragers_ is a difficult but very rewarding book, and I've been meaning to bring it up for some time. Has anyone else read it? >From: MARINA YERESHENKO >Subject: Re: Birth Control Books > >Anny, >I'm afraid that the "natural birth control" (i.e. that semi-starved women >are not fertile) is overestimated. In the place I came from (Tajikistan, >in Asia) majority of women (especially in remote villages) have babies as >often as every nine months, since they are married and until the menapause >(that is if they live through it). > >First reason is that Muslim religion prohibits birth control. Second, a >couple would not even try to use it,if they do not have a son yet. Girls >are not considered worth anything, so if a family has eight daughters, the >woman ill still be forced to have babies until she has a boy. The infant> >mortality is one of the highest in the world, so only 7-8 children survive, >but that's enough to keep the family at such poverty level, that the only >food they can afford is bread and tea -- for years. Which does not seem to >prevent more pregnancies. > >What I am saying, it would probably save a lot of >lives, if women would not have children until they are well-nourished, >but unfortunately, it's not the case. Of course, this is not a scientific >fact, just something I had a chance to witness for the first 20 years of >my life. > >Marina [snip] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:03:16 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Mars and social justice Just a few thoughts on the Pathfinder discussion, since I didn't get a chance to write anything about it all week. I was frankly surprised at how negative people were about the space program -- I hope there are a lot of listmembers out there who are more positive about space exploration but less outspoken. Just a couple thoughts: 1)the Pathfinder mission cost about the same as _Waterworld_ to make. Think about it. 2)If we eliminate space exploration and space science, who knows what future technologies we will be throwing away? People may say that space isn't worthwhile, but they're just guessing. 3)space exploration is humanity's only chance for opening up the closed system of Earth and Sun. If we are confined to Earth's resources, we are forced to choose between glaring injustice and poverty for everybody. 4)Mars was remarkably Earthlike 4 billion years ago; there was a thick atmosphere and liquid oceans. Now Mars is an airless icy desert. Since we are messing around with our own planet's environment, it might be a good idea to figure out what went wrong on our sister planet. 5)The thrill of discovery seems to me to be a human trait, not a "masculist" one. Over the 4th of July weekend, a substantial proportion of the world was watching the news from Mars. (Although probably not as many as watched the OJ trial verdict) To address what some other listmember said: >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:10:04 -0600 >From: Holly Yasui >Subject: Re: Mars/social justice >I too am concerned about "a continuation of the colonizing mentality and >activity that resulted in the theft of land and genocide of the native >peoples of the Americas." I find it interesting that "first contact" >masculist sf usually has some kind of mindless War of the Worlds >confrontation in which the aliens are simply the dreaded "Other" (the only >good alien is a dead alien). Whereas the feminist version (especially >Butler) conveys complex possibilities that value the alien's (Other's) >individual personality and culture. I am not sure what people mean by this. The Moon is a lifeless rock, the asteroids are rocks, Mars may have underground puddles of bacteria, Europa is the only body in the solar system other than Earth that *might* support complex life. Humanity's opportunities for genocide seem to be sharply limited. Are you opposed to any sort of exploration, or to tapping natural resources outside of Earth, or just to human colonization of space? Also, doesn't anyone remember that H.G. Wells' _War of the Worlds_ was a scathing commentary on colonialism? >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:43:03 -0400 >From: CMUNSON >Subject: Re: Mars/social justice >As much as I am interested in SF, and utopian feminist fiction, and Babylon >5, I have serious reservations about the manned (staffed?) space program. I >like things like satellites and the recent Mars probe, but I seriously >question sending people into space when we can't solve our problems down >here. BTW, I think you all should become familiar with the controversy >surrounding the upcoming Cassini Mission--if that fails lots of people >could die. How seriously do you all take those Utopias, anyway? I find it hard to imagine that we will ever "solve our problems" here on Earth. Waiting to explore space until everything is perfect on Earth seems a little like waiting to have kids until everything in your life is completely under control. Also, no one seems to even consider that the space program might help the wretched of the Earth -- not just in technological spinoffs, but in the vast natural resources in space (metals, ice, solar power...). >Anyway, if you look at the NASA budget by itself it doesn't look like much, >so we have to ask ourselves How are they doing all these space things on a >pittance? >The answer? >Military spending. >While NASA's line in the budget may not look big, it benefits indirectly >from the huge miltary/industrial complex. It uses some facilities that are >military, or were developed by the military. It employs pilots who were >trained in the military. It benefits from research conducted in >universities which are heavily funded by the military, especially in the >areas of science (maybe the reason why our libraries are so underfunded is >that they produce little of use to the military). I agree with your basic point, but most of your criticisms of NASA could be leveled just as well at the Internet! After 45 years of a Cold War an awful lot of society's institutions have become entwined with the military. >Janice E. Dawley said: >Paul Feyerabend, an outspoken critic of the scientific establishment, >said (in _Science in a Free Society_) re: the US moon trip of 1969: >"Of course, our well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries are liable to >burst with excitement over events such as the moonshots, the double helix, >non-equilibrium thermodynamics. But let us look at the matter from a >different point of view, and it becomes a ridiculous exercise in futility. >It needed billions of dollars, thousands of well-trained assistants, years >of hard work to enable some inarticulate and rather limited contemporary to >perform a few graceless hops in a place nobody in his right mind would >think of visiting - a dried out, airless, hot stone." >He overstates it a bit, but in essence I have to agree with him. [snip] Without even getting into the arrogance of Feyerabend's riff about "well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries," I find this quote amazing coming from someone on this list... I always thought one of the brilliant things about Science Fiction as opposed to mainstream literature was that S.F. noticed that technology actually effects everyday life. To be completely uninterested in the moonshots, DNA (i.e. the secret of life) and thermodynamics (i.e. how the universe works) seems to me to speak of either lack of education, lack of imagination, or sheer bloodyminded Luddism. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Okay, out of the car, Helmut" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lesley Hall wrote: >I remember reading an essay (? some years ago in, I think, SF >Eye) in which the (female) author was arguing that we had to get away from the >goody-goody heroine archetype: however, she seemed to be arguing that we >should just go for its reverse, as it were Kali instead of the Virgin Mary. >Which to me was just buying into a sets of stereotypes with a long long >history, not particularly liberatory/empowering to women, and not as >creatively productive as depicting women as interesting human beings with both >strengths and flaws. You're probably right about the reversal. Is Brite a misogynist or is she using misogynist images for a particular reason? For example, the whole horrific descriptions of vampire births in _Lost Souls_ could be read as a comment on the violent exploitation of women's bodies by men. Vampire men, in other words, are just as guilty of exploiting (and destroying) the females of their species for the sole purpose of reproduction as human men are. Destruction is mean here in both a literal and a figural sense. Think of how many human women are left to fend for themselves by a boyfriend, or husband who doesn't want to deal with the responsibility of a child. Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Janice Dawley wrote: >I believe you mean _Waking the Moon_. I read it last summer and was quite >disappointed. I absolutely loved Hand's earlier novel _Winterlong_, and was >hoping for something as good -- instead I found a heavy-handed (and much >too lengthy) saga whose earthshaking insight was that women can be really >evil. The faces of Kali, Othiym, whatever -- how new is it to symbolize >women as either devourers or saints? I kept hoping that she would attempt >to stretch the boundaries of gender definitions and portray something new, >but my persistence was not rewarded. Frankly, I was amazed that this novel >won the Tiptree award. Anyone have insight as to why? Or can anyone show me >how I'm wrong in my reading of the novel? Actually, I felt that none of the characters (female or male) were truly evil. In some instances I actually felt for the so-called "evil" characters. The question is were the Benandanti the villains in this novel, or were the followers of Othiym? Or was it just a titanic power struggle between two villains, neither of which deserved to win? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:25:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kym Ragusa Subject: Re: women horror writers (was Poppy Z. Brite) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Suzy, I just wanted to say that I read your story, "Boobs", in the anthology _Women Who Run With The Werewolves_, and I thought it was great. It was a real inspiration to me. Have you written anything else on werewolves? Do you have any recomendations on work by other writers. I've been fantasizing about making a werewolf film for a long time. Kym Ragusa > >I gotta say, I feel a bit squirmy about Brite, mainly because I remember >my own surprise whena little werewolf story of mine in an anth- >ology of horror by women drew very specific and pointed fire from review- >ers who kept warning readers about how very gory and awful this story >was. In fact, there is a paragraph or two (about gobbling a boy who has >been tormenting my heroine at school) and that's all; it I got the message >very clearly that pages and pages of gratuitous gore and flying liver from >King, Barker, McCammon et al, you name him, are all in a day's work (well, >boys are made from snips and snails etc., right, so what do you expect?) , >but a few sentences of carnage from a female author are shocking beyond >words because women are sugar and spice and everything nice. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:51:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry if this is a discussion that's died down already, but I was having some trouble sending to the list... (thanks, Laura, for fixing it!) On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > What I'd like to take issue with is the romantic aspect of the movie, > which, alongside the change in Ellie's perception of religious people > (from lunatic and hostile to warm and supportive), seemed to me to be > sentimental, and a "soft sell" to a cinema audience that wouldn't find > a Susan Calvin (or a very probably queer Jodie Foster) sympathetic. I haven't read the book, but from what I've heard, the Joss-Arroway romantic thing happens there as well, so it's not just to sell to a cinema audience or to counter rumors of Foster being a lesbian (oh, that would be happy, though, if she were). But that's not your real point, I think. > The > protective arm of the strong but tender male character as Ellie stumbles > out of the halls of the inquiry seemed a walking cliche and an indication > that Ellie alone is not quite up to the demands of public life. I felt that the relationship came out of nowhere, but I don't think it was detrimental to her character. Her trip, and the reaction to it, shook the very core assumptions that she'd based her life on--mainly, that you can prove -everything-. I wouldn't have found it believable if they had presented her as being able to stand completely alone through that kind of an experience. Pluswhich, Ellie and Palmer are good counterpoints to each other, and I think that made the movie just a little richer. -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why do we keep shrieking when we mean soft things, we should be whispering all the time . . . Because I'm afraid of the dark without you close to me." --100,000 Fireflies ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:52:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Contact movie (minor spoilers) and the portrayal of women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > I wonder how much of Ellie's isolation from female co-workers is simply the > usual male-authored cliche on Sagan's part and how much of it is the way > things still are (or were when Sagan wrote the book in the late 1980s) > for women working in the hard sciences. Anyone here have the kind of > background to comment on this from first hand experience? Well, Sagan co-authored the book (and movie) with his wife, who I believe has first-hand experience in the field. So the isolation is not just a male-author cliche. Also, while I can't speak to what it's like at NASA, I do know that women are still very much isolated in a lot of sciences. One of my housemates is in a computer-science research group, and their advisor/leader is a woman, but she's the only one on the team and doesn't have any female colleagues outside of the research team. A friend of mine is doing physics research and if there are any other women in her building, she's unaware of their existence. Maybe the situation is better when you get out of academia? -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Using lynx is like wearing jeans without underwear--nothing is supported, and it chafes." --The Boys ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:27:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: Re: elizabeth hand In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Erik Tsao wrote: > Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by > Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a > friend. Thoughts on the book? > "Waking the Moon". And I loved it. Very lush, very detailed, and just amazing to read. Maybe it's because I'm an Anthropology and Religious Traditions of the West major, but I loved it. All these exquisite elements coming together deliciously. And a main character that was utterly fascinating. I've tried to read "The Glimmering", another novel of hers, but I just couldn't get into it... Kate Bolin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:26:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: Contact I saw _Contact_ on Wednesday. I've since thought about it & discussed my thoughts with the scientist who attended the film with me. I have serious reservations about its representation of science vis-a-vis religion, which requires a slightly different way of talking about the film than I've yet seen here. & I believe certain problems with Arroway's characterization are implicated in these problems. ******************************************************************************Warning: my discussion is a definite spoiler. ****************************************************************************** First, let me say what I *like* about this film. I adored the opening sequence. It captured for me, visually, a certain breathless wonder one finds more often looking at the natural world(s) than in reading science fiction (though certain sf writers & readers do like to *talk* about "wonder" a lot!). It was a pleasure to me to see the depiction of a forceful, assertive woman as scientist & protagonist who makes productive things happen. I liked seeing an sf film that wasn't, for a change, an epic of nonstop adventure/violence. & finally, I got a lot of pleasure from the wormhole sequence & Arroway's meeting with the alien on the alien world. That said, I believe the problems some list members are having with the characterization of Arroway has to do with the film maker's desire to make science *epistemologically* analagous to religion. My argument is complicated, & contains two parts. First, characterization: it's important that Arroway not be taken for a full character at all, but as an icon of the driven, passionate scientist. There is no other way to regard the inconsistency in the characterization that allows us to make sense of it. The film gives us her childhood only up to age 9, & attempts to explain her passion for the SETI project as an effect of her relationship with her father & her bereavement. What it does *not* explain (or attempt to explain) is how she developed from that nine-year-old girl into an adult woman who is easily assertive, easily able to express anger, fully confident in her own capabilities & intellect, & able to ignore authority figures & power structures as irrelevant obstacles. Boys are often raised to become adults with such attitudes & psychological capacities. It's part of their standard socialization. But for a girl to become such an adult requires at least one of two things: either she is nurtured along the way, & not punished (but encouraged) for being headstrong & self-assertive (& all institutions are against this: even parents determined not to let their daughters be tarred with the good-girl/bad-girl designation that is used against girl children as soon as they enter to school as a means of behavior control find this almost impossible to achieve); OR as a young woman she undergoes a long struggle to achieve this capacity, in which case her relationship with authority is likely to be seriously conflicted for a long time to come. We know the latter can't have been the case for Arroway, since authority figures mean nothing to her, & their evaluations of her don't interest her, except insofar as they might be useful for helping her to achieve the wherewithal to pursue her research. But we also know the former can't be the case, because she has absolutely no family ties, no family friends, no MENTORS. Her life as a character stops at age 9 (with her feeling guilty, by the bye, for her father's death-- something any child would need a helpful nurturing adult to overcome), & picks up with her getting her PhD from Stanford (apparently without any ties to a mentor there). In other words, Eleanor Arroway is not depicting a real person, but an icon of the self-made scientist who never had a lick of help or support or encouragement that wasn't self-generated. (Which supports the mythology that anyone could do anything without any kind of help or benign negligence along the way.) Which is okay-- only we need to understand that that's the case when we talk about her character in the film. As an icon, the film maker needed to make her sympathetic to the audience (lest they see her as simply monomaniacal-- which of course she is), so that the audience will sympathize with her quest. The manipulative emotional scenes of her father's death & the relationship with Palmer achieve this. These are the only affective relationship she has. Otherwise, she is a total affective blank. (But then she's an icon, not a character.) I realize Sagan made the progagonist female in his book. But this femaleness allows the film-maker to portray her as not quite all there when she's testifying in the jerk politician's conspiracy hearings. Suddenly she is no longer a trained scientist able to marshall the obvious points. Rather, she's an emotional, inarticulate WOMAN. She's actually browbeaten with the greatest ease into saying that it was "possible" that Haddon could have faked the whole thing. Now anyone paying attention would KNOW that scientifically speaking it was NOT possible to have faked it. The transmission was checked from several positions-- this being the very first thing that Arroway did when she discovered the transmission. No satellite could have generated such a transmission. A reminder of this fact would have been the immediate response that a scientist like Arroway would have made to the jerk politician's disingenuous question. Second, no scientist would have confused ontological with epistemological "faith." Or *optimism* with "faith." Scientists are often highly *optimistic* about the truth of their conjectures. But they *don't* discuss their conjectures' validity in terms of *faith*. They're perfectly capable of "believing in" their conjectures (read: being optimistic about the validity of their conjectures) while reserving judgment until definitive evidence comes in. Further, the film-maker deliberately conflated this optimism with what any sf reader will recognize as "wonder." (Which the film-maker wants to claim is the same thing as believing in God, I guess.) Second, the federal govt's depicted attitude toward the project of building the alien technology was absurd, as was the idea that real scientists faced with such schematic plans wouldn't be determined to understand *everything* involved. If such schematic plans came into the hands of the federal govt, they would damned sure "reverse engineer" them. There would have been an enormous team of physicists put to work on them. Second, they would have done all sorts of runs & experiments before fully implementing it-- running it at 20%, say, again & again, to determine exactly what was physically & theoretically happening as they "powered" the thing up. That being so, Arroway should have been able to put forth theoretical reasons for arguing that she really did travel to another world in that split second. (& even if they *hadn't* reverse-engineered, there would have been plenty of theoretical physicists she could have called on to help her construct a theory for how her trip could have happened.) & finally, the idea of equating the use of Occam's razor to talk about epistemology on the one hand & ontology on the other is a downright manipulative category error. & using the protagonists' interactions with children at the end of the film was a particularly pernicious way of enforcing it. I haven't read Sagan's book, but it's hard for me to believe a scientist would be party to this kind of disingenuous, manipulative argument. Timmi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 21:30:32 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: elizabeth hand 'Waking the Moon' I read Winterlong and was no more than moderately impressed, really disliked the sequel (title I forget, perhaps Freudianly) but was really impressed by WtM; even though I did have some cavils--felt that the violence of the returning goddess could have been perhaps more strongly related to repression by the Benandanti (??), instead of being presented as an innate characteristic (if open to this other reading). But it did have a genuine ambivalence over who were the goodies and the baddies which was exciting, especially as presented from p.o.v. of the 'little person' caught in between. Also, it seemed to me to be well-written without the rather self-consciously 'fine writing' of the other works. Haven't seen the latest E Hand--not in p/back? awaiting a UK edition? (the import shops here in London sometimes do not get US editions of books lined up for UK edition--presumably some kind of publishers' restriction). Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Erik Tsao wrote: > Has anyone read Elizabeth Hand's _Awaken the Moon_ (recently published by > Harper in mass market paper)? I just finished it and passed it on to a > friend. Thoughts on the book? > "Waking the Moon". And I loved it. Very lush, very detailed, and just amazing to read. Maybe it's because I'm an Anthropology and Religious Traditions of the West major, but I loved it. All these exquisite elements coming together deliciously. And a main character that was utterly fascinating. I've tried to read "The Glimmering", another novel of hers, but I just couldn't get into it... Kate Bolin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:04:03 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: elizabeth hand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice E. Dawley wrote: > I believe you mean _Waking the Moon_. I read it last summer and was quite > disappointed. I absolutely loved Hand's earlier novel _Winterlong_, and was > hoping for something as good -- instead I found a heavy-handed (and much > too lengthy) saga whose earthshaking insight was that women can be really > evil. The faces of Kali, Othiym, whatever -- how new is it to symbolize > women as either devourers or saints? I kept hoping that she would attempt > to stretch the boundaries of gender definitions and portray something new, > but my persistence was not rewarded. Frankly, I was amazed that this novel > won the Tiptree award. Anyone have insight as to why? Or can anyone show me > how I'm wrong in my reading of the novel? Talk about different strokes for different folks! I found _Winterlong_ to be rather chilly and ascetic in feel. I just could not warm up to it. On the other hand, I adored _Waking the Moon_. What I thought Hand was doing there was playing against the modern ideal of the nurturing, all-benevolent goddess. If we're to be full human beings, we need to acknowledge that we are wrong at times. One of the things that is wrong is the myth of the superwoman: the successful career woman with the perfect family who is Martha Stewart on the side. Most of us can't do that, and we shouldn't feel inferior if we don't measure up to this impossible standard. I thought Hand was knocking the goddess off her pedestal in the same way. She was giving her characters the right to be wrong and the goddess to be a bitch in the same way that male gods so frequently are cruel and capricious. Berni Phillips bernip@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:40:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Waking the Moon As a Pagan, I had to read it. To me, it felt like reading something from Anne Rice: great plot and fascinating setting, but unrealistic characters and general silliness due to poor writing. -- Anne Stuecker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Woman on the Edge of Time >The idea that the "power" to conceive and bear children necessarily creates an >imbalance between the sexes is not very convincing to me. Janice - If I'm remembering the book correctly, the purpose of the brooder was to allow men and women to perform whatever tasks they chose without any tasks being specifically applied to one sex. I do agree, though, that >It might have been more plausible to envision a society whose views on >childbearing were radically transformed than to come up with a technological fix WotEoT was the first feminist SF book I ever read, however, so I have a soft spot in my heart for it. -- Anne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Space exploration writes: >I was frankly surprised at how negative >people were about the space program -- I hope there are a lot of >listmembers out there who are more positive about space exploration but less >outspoken. Me! >If we are confined to Earth's resources, we >are forced to choose between glaring injustice and poverty for everybody. I don't understand why these are the two choices. If we see our future on Earth in such a fatalistic way, then we will be encouraging a destructive attitude towards the planet. It will be like saying, "Well, we can trash this planet, because we can move to another one, or to a moon, and set up shop there until we trash it, too." This discussion of people's anti-space exploration attitudes reminds me of a radio call-in show where a person on a cell phone asked the host what the space program had ever done for him. -- Anne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:18:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marilyn Nulman Subject: Re: So who is on this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Elizabeth, I enjoyed your intro letter. I'm very interested in YA fantasy as I work with kids at my local library and am always looking for books to recommend to them. So far I've had good luck with the Alana books by Tamara Pierce, about a girl who switches places with her brother--he goes off to become a sorcerer and she to become a knight. Also, there are three books about Wren by ???? Smith--if you need the name I can find it for you. Titles: Wren's Rescue, Wren's Quest and Wren's War. You must know Lloyd Alexander's Taran series. They're not exactly feminist, althoug there are many strong female characters, but they are Celtic--or Welsh. Does that count? Meredith Pierce wrote a strange and affecting trilogy about a child-woman abandoned in a land of monsters, and Jo Clayton has written several books with young female characters, among them the Drinker of Souls trilogy--not sure if they'd be considered YA, though. I had to mention them--I liked them so much. Sheri Tepper's Jinian books fascinated me, too. I have four great cats and one cat-loving dog. I write, right now a fantasy which may run to three or four volumes, also mysteries. Hope to hear from you-- Regards, Marilyn >Drawn out of lurking by the bravery of others, I'd like to introduce >myself. Right now I'm a budding student (again; got an MA 2 years ago), >starting Ph.D work this fall in children's literature. I'm married, with 4 >cats (my husband is also on this list--Allen Briggs). I'm also a neophyte >computer person, mastering HTML and the creation of web pages, and planning >on learning VRML soon. > >I've been a feminist since I entered college, but I recently have had >revelations about just how subtle the oppression of women really is, even >among those who are learned and try not to support that behavior. This >revelation came right before I read Nicola Griffith's Ammonite, which had a >profound effect on me (I highly recommend it). I've appreciated the >thoughtful discussions and recommendations given on this list (I've been >lurking since March), and they've helped me greatly in my thoughts and my >research. I've only become entranced with fantasy and SF in the past few >years, become a fan of Star Trek in the past 2 years, and become a fan of >Bab5 in the past week. =-> > >My Ph.D work will focus on Celtic mythology and YA fantasy and SF, looking >for a more feminist alternative to the heroic quest narrative structure in >the mythology, and how that may be incorporated in contemporary British YA >fantasy and SF novels, depending on the author's gender. I also research >Japanese children's books dealing with WWII and the bombings, and >children's hypermedia and theories of children and technology. If anyone's >interested in these topics, I'd love to discuss them off-list. > >Elizabeth > > >-- >Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs >pandolfo@macbsd.com >http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html > >"Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." > --Peth, "Seaward" > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:45:58 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Female quest narratives >looking for a more feminist alternative to the heroic quest narrative >structure in the mythology I think this is a topic we could all be interested in! My immediate guess (though I'd hesitate to back it up with examples (since it is past midnight here)) is that female quests are less in the mode of hero setting out to make his fortune and more 'accidental' in the way they come about. Also maybe more 'anti-heroic': not exactly feminist perhaps but a series I fell in love with many years ago, Jane Gaskell's 'Atlan' sequence, has the protagonist Cija ending up in all sorts of grotty situations (kitchen maid in a low-class inn, holed up in tatty garretts, etc quite apart from being incarcerated by her husband Zerd in an extremely gothic tower for about a third of the second volume) in fact could be read as proceeding from enclosure to enclosure. Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:28:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jana C. McCormick" Subject: Re: Contact, the book << ltimmel@HALCYON.COM (L. Timmel Duchamp) In response to this commentary, I want to say that the illogical discrepancies or ingredients of movies usually come from a director's wish to simplify a plot and downsize the cast of characters. I have yet to see this movie because I wanted to read the book first and I have just finished it. I adore good fiction combined with science and/or philosophy and well-rounded characters. Carl Sagan is a damn good writer. This surprised me after the rumors and reviews I have heard through the grapevine, which teaches me once again to think for myself. I developed a college level vocabulary through reading sci-fi as an elementary student and the fiction I chose after that did nothing to enhance that vocabulary. I was surprised and delighted to find myself looking up words like jingoism while reading this book. He does very well at explaining physics and astronomy to a layman, like myself, and almost all of these discrepancies I've heard of concerning the movie, and those I've seen in the trailor are nonexistent in the story. I suggest that those of you who were unsatisfied by the movie go pick up the book, you won't be sorry. I, myself, am about to pick up one of his previous novels, perhaps Comet. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:52:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: elizabeth hand In-Reply-To: <33D0C953.5F94@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 03:04 PM 7/19/97 +0100, Berni Phillips wrote, regarding _Waking the Moon_: >What I thought Hand was doing there was playing against the modern >ideal of the nurturing, all-benevolent goddess. If we're to be full >human beings, we need to acknowledge that we are wrong at times. One of >the things that is wrong is the myth of the superwoman: the successful >career woman with the perfect family who is Martha Stewart on the side. >Most of us can't do that, and we shouldn't feel inferior if we don't >measure up to this impossible standard. I thought Hand was knocking the >goddess off her pedestal in the same way. She was giving her characters >the right to be wrong and the goddess to be a bitch in the same way that >male gods so frequently are cruel and capricious. I think this is exactly what frustrated me about the book: it's already a common belief that any woman with a drive to succeed, who doesn't let others step all over her and coopt her, is a bitch (that is, cruel, manipulative, egotistical). So I didn't enjoy Hand showing how, indeed, this was the case. (I gave up hope right about when Angelica started sacrificing people, though I did finish the book.) -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time In-Reply-To: <19970719.180717.4230.0.avs5@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote: >The idea that the "power" to conceive and bear children necessarily >creates an imbalance between the sexes is not very convincing to me. At 05:27 PM 7/19/97 -0400, Anne V Stuecker wrote: >If I'm remembering the book correctly, the purpose of the brooder was to >allow men and women to perform whatever tasks they chose without any >tasks being specifically applied to one sex. As Luciente explains after the tour of the brooder: "It was part of women's long revolution. When we were breaking all the old hierarchies. Finally there was that one thing we had to give up too, the only power we ever had, in return for no more power for anyone. The original production: the power to give birth. Cause as long as we were biologically enchained, we'd never be equal. And males never would be humanized to be loving and tender. So we all became mothers." (page 105 of the Fawcett paperback). That is all the explanation the book ever gives for the brooders. But with that one snippet, Piercy raises many fascinating questions: 1) What does it mean to be "biologically enchained"? Some, such as St. Augustine, would argue that having a body at all (with its attendant lusts) means that we are enchained. 2) If equality means erasing differences between people, why isn't everyone in Mattapoisett exactly the same? 3) What does Piercy mean by the word "power"? 4) Is it really impossible for men to be loving and tender while women have the ability to bear children? There are more I can think of, but those are the most obvious questions. I want to stress here that I really loved the book and agree with Joan Haran that "its flaws are as stimulating to debate as its successes." I also just bought a copy of _He, She & It" and will be interested to compare the two. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:43:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Dowling Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives In a message dated 15/07/97 01:59:29, you write: << Has there been any discussion of this on the list? (I did quickly check the archives and there doesn't seem to have been). >> Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was copying and saving) Thanks janet (delurking yet again!) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:32:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970720125050.006ed580@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > 2) If equality means erasing differences between people, why isn't everyone > in Mattapoisett exactly the same? Equality, in the social sense, has never meant erasing differences. In Mattapoisett, everyone had the same opportunities, regardless of how different they were from each other. -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- and I was blessed with a birth and a death and I guess I just want some say in between --ani ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:31:04 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives I found these at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/listserv/index.html#archive Lesley Lesley_Hall@msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Janet Dowling Sent: 20 July 1997 19:43 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives In a message dated 15/07/97 01:59:29, you write: << Has there been any discussion of this on the list? (I did quickly check the archives and there doesn't seem to have been). >> Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was copying and saving) Thanks janet (delurking yet again!) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:11:01 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: So who is on this list? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marilyn Nulman wrote: > sorcerer and she to become a knight. Also, there are three books about Wren > by ???? Smith--if you need the name I can find it for you. Titles: Wren's > Rescue, Wren's Quest and Wren's War. Sherwood Smith is the name you're blanking on. Berni ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: listserve archives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, indeed, there are archives. I update them when I have a chance. You can also review the archives by sending a note to listserv@listserv.uic.edu In the body of the message say index feministsf This will get you a list of weekly archives. After that you can send a message to listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message say get [archive name] where [archive name] is the name of the file ... The volume of these discussions (which are wonderful - I'm thrilled to see such a large population of people interested in feminist-sf - almost 200 current subscribers) is getting substantial. I am still looking for an academic host - a literature or women's studies department, maybe - that wants to sponsor the web-site and listserve. There are lots of projects that people have suggested to me that would be wonderful, if we had more people willing to do work on the web-site and some shared space. If any faculty out there in academic is interested and willing, let me know. Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > I found these at > http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/listserv/index.html#archive > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@msn.com > > ---------- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf > of Janet Dowling > Sent: 20 July 1997 19:43 > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives > > In a message dated 15/07/97 01:59:29, you write: > > << > Has there been any discussion of this on the list? (I did quickly check the > archives and there doesn't seem to have been). >> > > Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as > no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was > copying and saving) > > Thanks > > > janet > > (delurking yet again!) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:47:41 +0100 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sunday 20 July 1997, Susan Marie wrote: > > Equality, in the social sense, has never meant erasing differences. > In Mattapoisett, everyone had the same opportunities, regardless of > how different they were from each other. > Susan, that's only your opinion. You might like to consider the large body of feminist literature struggling with equality and/or difference. You might like to consider the way feminist discourse has been appropriated by the mainstream so that of course, e.g. women can have equal access to employment as long as we flatten out difference by equating pregnancy with sickness and therefore employment rights don't have to deal with pesky things like women having wombs. In Mattapoisett, there has been a huge - not to say violent - erasure of difference as women can no longer give birth. And I think if you read WOTET closely, you will note that there is _no_ discussion of contraception so I think you can infer that something fairly drastic has been done to reproductive organs. And what about race? Mattapoisett's answer to race is to divorce cultural identity from racial heritage and to make a conscious decision to reproduce more mixed race babies. Erasure of difference by the back door? I completely applaud Piercy's attempts to portray a society that gives equal opportunities to everybody, but I think that some of the strategies she depicts for achieving this are questionable. And I really think you need to think again about your statement - Equality in the social sense has never meant erasing difference -. Never is a long time - what is the history of the discourse of equality? And what difference can be perceived in the discourses depending on who is creating them - white middle class women, white working class women, black working class women, black middle class women and so on? Joan Haran ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: An Exchange of Hostages now archives In-Reply-To: <970720144338_-1258714650@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Janet Dowling wrote: > Archives? So there are archives. Can some one tell me how to access them, as > no one responded last time I asked ( except for one person who, like me , was > copying and saving) NH: You would have gotten instructions in the refcard that was e-mailed to you after you signed on to the list. I saved mine to my hard drive at home, and I'm at work now, so I can't help you. But if you no longer have the refcard, probably listmistress Laura Quilter can help you. I once accessed the archives myself. They're very illuminating. -nalo > > Thanks > > > janet > > (delurking yet again!) > "Straight she's fantastical, they all do cry." -Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle, "Nature's Pictures," 1656 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:21:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Marie Subject: Re: Woman on the Edge of Time In-Reply-To: <199707210754.CAA50252@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I completely applaud Piercy's attempts to portray a society that gives > equal opportunities to everybody, but I think that some of the strategies > she depicts for achieving this are questionable. And I really think you > need to think again about your statement - Equality in the social sense has > never meant erasing difference -. Never is a long time - what is the > history of the discourse of equality? Right then, I'll amend that. Social equality -should- never mean erasing differences. It's probably less objectionable when explicitly phrased as an opinion, which is was meant to be. And I do stand by it--I'm not familiar with the entire history of the theoretical discourse on social equality, but I do know that the practical struggle for social equality (at least in the US, apologies for my limited reference frame) has historically been about equality of opportunity, not about forcing sameness. Or maybe I only see it that way because that's the only kind of fight for equality that I could respect. -- Susan susan@apocalypse.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "To me, words like "homophobic," "sexist" and "patriarchical" are just that - meaningless crap invented by the Thought Police." "I really wish I lived in your world, John." "no you don't, because then it would be just you and him, 24/7." -- John Appelbaum, Ny Martin, julia starkey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Bolin Subject: B5 news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In case you haven't heard, Claudia Christian isn't coming back for season 5. Apparently there were contract problems. This is a bit annoying. Here we had this amazing feminist character, on a science fiction TV show, and now she's just gone. While I'm glad that her departure doesn't have anything to do with ratings or the need to develop a plot line, I'm still a little cranky over this. Now who am I going to have as a role model? Delenn still slips into her "Oh John" stage every once in awhile, and Lyta isn't around often enough to be a main character. Thank goodness for my video tapes Kate who refuses to take anything overly seriously ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I'm already in the gutter....next stop, it's the drain..." Alien Sex Fiend "I Walk The Line" Kate Bolin http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~kbolin Founder of Delenn Deserves Better!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:09:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Re: B5 news In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The text of jms's and Claudia Christian's versions of the problem can be found on the Lurker's Guide: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html Heather, a teeny bit hopeful that the miscommunication problems will be worked out. *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:20:17 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Different but Equal ??? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Susan Marie wrote: >> I completely applaud Piercy's attempts to portray a society that gives >> equal opportunities to everybody, but I think that some of the strategies >> she depicts for achieving this are questionable. And I really think you >> need to think again about your statement - Equality in the social sense has >> never meant erasing difference -. Never is a long time - what is the >> history of the discourse of equality? > >Right then, I'll amend that. Social equality -should- never mean >erasing differences. It's probably less objectionable when explicitly >phrased as an opinion, which is was meant to be. And I do stand by >it--I'm not familiar with the entire history of the theoretical >discourse on social equality, but I do know that the practical >struggle for social equality (at least in the US, apologies for my >limited reference frame) has historically been about equality of >opportunity, not about forcing sameness. Or maybe I only see it that >way because that's the only kind of fight for equality that I could >respect. There is a difference between "forcing sameness" and demolishing categorical difference. I see a disturbing trend in so-called feminism today that seems to be linked with it's decline. I think that just about everyone of both sexes should be seen as "essentially" the same. Not that they must be the same in all details, but that false categorical differences should be completely eliminated. This means that If time off is to be given for the raising of a child it should equally be given to all of the legal parents (be that mother, father, other mother, whatever) If justifiable requirements of strength are established for a particular job, those should not be confused with sex. I can think of no valid categorical difference between the sexes other than reproductive role and even then no valid consideration of that difference in our circumstances. For some ungodly reason, some "feminists" have tried to find differences between men and women. There have been books and television shows about "the differences between men and women" that have been given tacit approval by such feminists and their work. While I revel in difference and diversity, and try to cherish all for their particular gifts, I do NOT subscribe to some hogwash mystical chasm between the two poles (sexes) of human experience. I think that the only healthy place to entertain such notions is in the investigation of how we and are society have erred on this issue. I fully realize that I myself and most of the human world cannot help but fall from a state of "divine" blindness. We cannot help but form stereotypes and act upon them. Perhaps some of us cannot see clear to a stable equality given the current bio-economic setup. Perhaps a bit of understandable pessimism leads us to consider the erasure of categorical difference in one form or another, generally through alternative means of reproduction. However, a bit of pessimistic angst and an exploration of possible compomises made for far less than perfect people in a less than perfect world in an attempt to move closer to utopia is not always the same as advocation of those particular compromises and that particular world. I believe that false categorical difference does not allow equality. So, any fight for equality that does not "force sameness" in the sense of removing false categorical differences will be doomed to fail perhaps to even foster inequality and so not be worthy of my respect and support. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:12:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao asked: > Is Brite a misogynist or is she using misogynist images for a particular >reason? This question presupposes a level of intelligence, self-awareness and introspection which cannot be automaticly assumed. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:45:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik Tsao wrote: >Does a "queer" perspective really differ from a feminist one? This presupposes such a thing as 'a "queer" perspective'. Sexual preference/orientation/imprinting is one aspect of a person. . . Can/Does a single aspect have a 'perspective'? Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Mars and social justice In-Reply-To: <11870021@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Daniel L Krashin wrote: >Just a few thoughts on the Pathfinder discussion, since I didn't get a chance >to write anything about it all week. I was frankly surprised at how negative >people were about the space program -- I hope there are a lot of listmembers >out there who are more positive about space exploration but less outspoken. >Without even getting into the arrogance of Feyerabend's riff about >"well-conditioned materialistic contemporaries," I find this quote amazing >coming from someone on this list... I always thought one of the brilliant >things about Science Fiction as opposed to mainstream literature was that >S.F. noticed that technology actually effects everyday life. To be >completely uninterested in the moonshots, DNA (i.e. the secret of life) and >thermodynamics (i.e. how the universe works) seems to me to speak of either >lack of education, lack of imagination, or sheer bloodyminded Luddism. Thank you; I've avoided the thread because I'm too outspokenly pro-space development. I didn't want to risk a flamefest so tangential to the list topic. For instance: Perhaps the greateast single factor in our Earthly problems is population pressure. Nothing else aggravates more other problems worse. The known, proven solution to high birth rates is affluence. We have no better strategy toward universal affluence than space industrialization. There is no ecology on out Moon, or on the asteroids. If you want to return a patch of the Moon's surface to the contidion it was in before you strip-mined it, just walk away from it! Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:27:26 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Robin A. Dubner Dubner" Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite I read one of Brite's novels about a year ago and have no interest in reading anything else of hers. I have no problem with women writing horror or vampire stories if they are well written, i.e., Chelsea Quinn Yarbo. Unfortunately, Brite's book (I forget the title), was an unimaginative rip-off of Anne Rice's vampire books: the same decadent New Orlean's setting with aimless characters rotting in ennui, and the same self-indulgent style of writing. On the other hand, I discovered Sheri S. Tepper a couple of months ago and I've been devouring everything of hers I can get my hands on. The first book I read was The Gate to Women's Country, and I just loved it. Now, eight Sheri S. Tepper books later, I feel like going on a personal crusade to get her books read by everyone. Her feminism, great character development and lyrical writing are without comparison. I heartily enjoy the repeated themes of ecological disaster due to uncontrolled human breeding and the evils of religious fundamentalism. I love the development of her female protaganists into strong independent women. Anyone out there who wants to talk Sheri S. Tepper with me? ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of patricia johnston Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:24 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite Hello, Seems to be a lot of yays/nays re Poppy`s writing. If someone has an e-mail address for her, perhaps she (Poppy) could join the list and join the discussion. Also has anyone read Gate To Women`s Country by Tepper, and what are your thoughts. Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:55:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Fwd: Different but Equal ??? --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: Different but Equal ??? Date: 97-07-21 17:54:49 EDT From: NYOUNGMAN To: Joel VanLaven << For some ungodly reason, some "feminists" have tried to find differences between men and women. There have been books and television shows about "the differences between men and women" that have been given tacit approval by such feminists and their work. >> Are you talking about researchers like Gillian, Belenky, Pipher, Tanner etc? I think their main point is that boys/men and girls/women are *socialized* differently, hence we *tend* to have some notable differences in how we see things, make decisions, and express ourselves. That's a long way from claiming that men and women have essential biological differences that "make" them a certain way. And if we're ever going to have true equality of opportunity, there *are* some instances where men and women may need to be treated in ways that respect biological differences. While I'm not crazy about the Pregnancy Disablity Act that treats pregnancy as a disease either, let's face it, there's really no male equivalent of *maternity* leave, though obviously *family* leave should be available to everyone. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:23:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Horror and Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robin and the gang: Since Robin brought Tepper into the Poppy Z. discussion, anyone out there read her three horror novels? Seems like some people did? And while I know Tepper is discussed on the list a lot, I don't mind revisiting her, rather than referring people to the archives. It might be fun for newbies to take a peek at the archives just to get a feel for what has been discussed... I am NOT obsessive about Tepper. Everyone has _Beauty_ in a galley, original hardcover, trade paperback, U.S. mass market, and U.K. mass market, right? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:43:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: Horror and Tepper Comments: To: Maryelizabeth Hart In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Robin and the gang: > > Since Robin brought Tepper into the Poppy Z. discussion, anyone out there > read her three horror novels? Seems like some people did? And while I know > Tepper is discussed on the list a lot, I don't mind revisiting her, rather > than referring people to the archives. It might be fun for newbies to take > a peek at the archives just to get a feel for what has been discussed... > > I am NOT obsessive about Tepper. Everyone has _Beauty_ in a galley, > original hardcover, trade paperback, U.S. mass market, and U.K. mass > market, right? Why of course, Maryelizabeth! I thought they were just handed out when you started graduate school! :) I've read all three of Tepper's horror novels, in addition to her fantasy and mystery work, and I have to say that I find her horror work a fine example of the genre. I went through a phase as an 18 and 19-year-old clerical type, with a long bus ride to work every day, where I devoured horror novels. I lost my taste for them when the job ended, so it's been awhile since I looked at anything recent - hence I've not read any Brite at all. The thing that I noted most about Tepper's horror was that the books scared the living shit out of me!! Yet when I return to them even now and try to point out to myself exactly what was so frightening about them, there's not much that's really specific. Yes, there is the gruesome discovery of the rotting, skinned corpses in _The Bones_ and the whirlwind maze in _Blood Heritage_ and the sinister, muffled presence in _Still Life_, but what makes Tepper's horror, and her other novels, so good, is her ability to cast a mood that draws a reader in rapidly and completely. In the case of her horror stories, that mood is effectively, chillingly dark. I've been passing up the offers to talk Tepper because I'm heading away on holiday soon and have heaps of work to do, but I couldn't let this one go! edrie Edrie Sobstyl School of Arts and Humanities JO 31 University of Texas at Dallas P.O. Box 830688 Richardson Tx 75083-0688 USA (972) 883-2365 esobstyl@utdallas.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:53:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I also love Tepper, even though she is frequently so extreme in her positions that I wonder if she is pulling our collective leg. You should try her mysteries as well, She writes under the name Oliphant and Orde. She also wrote a horror story under the name of Horlak. Currently Iam trying to locate her earlier works, Marianne etc. On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Robin A. Dubner Dubner wrote: > I read one of Brite's novels about a year ago and have no interest in > reading anything else of hers. I have no problem with women writing horror or > vampire stories if they are well written, i.e., Chelsea Quinn Yarbo. > Unfortunately, Brite's book (I forget the title), was an unimaginative rip-off > of Anne Rice's vampire books: the same decadent New Orlean's setting with > aimless characters rotting in ennui, and the same self-indulgent style of > writing. > On the other hand, I discovered Sheri S. Tepper a couple of months ago > and I've been devouring everything of hers I can get my hands on. The first > book I read was The Gate to Women's Country, and I just loved it. Now, eight > Sheri S. Tepper books later, I feel like going on a personal crusade to get > her books read by everyone. Her feminism, great character development and > lyrical writing are without comparison. I heartily enjoy the repeated themes > of ecological disaster due to uncontrolled human breeding and the evils of > religious fundamentalism. I love the development of her female protaganists > into strong independent women. > Anyone out there who wants to talk Sheri S. Tepper with me? > > > ---------- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf > of patricia johnston > Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:24 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: Poppy Z. Brite > > Hello, > Seems to be a lot of yays/nays re Poppy`s writing. If someone has an e-mail > address for her, perhaps she (Poppy) could join the list and join the > discussion. Also has anyone read Gate To Women`s Country by Tepper, and > what are your thoughts. > Patricia. > ~ Denise M. Borgen ~ If the world were a logical ~ ~ ~ place, men would ride sidesaddle ~ ~ ~ -Rita Mae Brown ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ ~