"FEMINISTSF LOG9707E" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:50:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tim Capehart Subject: Re: Gate to Women's Country Y'all: Tim: >(Geek alert) Pour quoi? >I'm new here (that was reason one for said geek alert) Reason two was my unbridled profession of fandom. Even before Steven King made it a joke and a cliche for readers to say "I'm your number 1 fan." Readers hazarded derision by professing devotion to a certain author. I was just warning the listserv that I was a newbie & a GREAT BIG Tepper fan. When you mentioned _Family Tree_ in comparison to "previous novels," were you referring to the more recent ones (_Gibbon's Decline and Fall_, _Shadow's End_, _A Plague of Angels_), earlier ones like _Gate_, or a combination? I was referring to Gibbons most recently. NOT (though I love them dearly) the more fluffy True Game books. Mostly I was referring to Gate, Grass & Raising the Stones among others which I have yet to see surpassed as SF novels (granted I read fewer since I becomed a Kids libirdian...but I still TRY to keep up!) I was a tot & The Revenants was a new book when I discovered Sheri Tepper. I have since been a devoted fan. (I also read Gaiman, Pratchett, Card, Huff, Turner & Tiptree) I admit I have abandoned SF except for these...for lack of interest. Sorry to give you more than you asked for! Tim Capehart tdcape0@pop.uky.edu dirknduck@uky.campus.mci.net www.geocities.com/westhollywood/7427 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:57:06 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildney Cavalcanti Subject: Re: female quest narratives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:04 28/07/97 -0500, you wrote: >[this got marooned in my out queue on Friday; I hope it's still timely enough] >Ildney Cavalcanti wrote: >>(as opposed to *one* female hero - or heroine - I still have >>not chosen which term to use...) > >One of the most intriguing ad hoc monologues I've ever heard at a con >(science ficiton convention) was Gordy Dickson talking about the lack of a >feminine equivalent of the word "hero". ("Heroine" certainly isn't it!) >His example of such a character was Pilar in _For Whom the Bell Tolls_. > > >Neil Rest > > Hi, Neil, Writing about the quest versus the romance plot, DuPlessis makes use of both terms in different contexts. She uses heroine when she's discussing romance plots, and female hero for the quest plots. One of the points she argues is that, in nineteenth-century fictions, narratives featuring women protagonists could start as a quest plot, but then the female hero had, in most cases, to be accommodated into the role of a romance heroine by the end of the story. I agree with her point, but still find the term "female hero" a bit awkward... Any suggestions? Best, Ildney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:14:17 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > > > > > ONe gets the impression that Bujold thinks that without outer pressure > > >(no money or space restrictions) women like to get children by the > > >dozen. > > >she's writing about a specific, individual character who > happens to love kids, as many women (and men) do, and who happens to > fantasize about having lots of kids, as some women (and some men) do. > To imply that she would unilaterally extend that characterization to > women in general like some right-wing family values crazy is entirely > off-base. > > Mike Levy (who occasionally gets huffy) > Its worth pointing out that in Ethan of Athos Bujold portrays some men as wanting as many children as possible too. Plus, it is in part the loss of his first family that encourages Lord Vorkosigan to want more children, but both he and cordelia settle for one if that is what they have to do to protect that child's interests. Farah ps. when is Ekaterina coming out and is it a Barrayar novel? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:18:05 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Baby lust In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A small observation from those around me. I notice that women in their twenties are either choosing to have no children, or to have lots. This may end up by pushing up family size generally as those who really want children have large families, but keep the child-birth rate approximately the same as those of us who don't want children don't have them. Just think, a generation of wanted children! Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:42:02 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: Birth Control Books In-Reply-To: <970715023907_-1493524419@emout11.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > On a related note, the birth of twins was considered to be the result of an > evil spirit disrupting the normal way of things. One of the infants would be > killed. Although unthinkable to most of us today, this policy actually had a > practical basis -- it was unlikely that two infants could be supported, > primarily because the mother was so poorly nourished that it was catch-and-go > whether she could produce enough milk to keep even one baby alive. > > Anny > AnnyMiddon@aol.com > I read an interesting article recently that said that many African countries are currently having problems with the rising numbers of twins. As women's health improves and they live longer and continue fertile longer families are getting bigger. What I didn't realise is that later in life women are more likely to have twins. A number of charities now exist to help women keep the second baby. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:39:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: Outer Limits In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The episode BTW is entitled "Stitch in Time" and is written by: Steven Barnes and direted by: Mario Azzopardi. At 06:01 PM 28/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >Marcus, >In that episode, erasing the rape from the scientist's past made her a >totally different person (you can barely recognize her when the cop finds >her again), but she still became a scientist and invented the time machine. That was the big question when the cop came back from preventing the scientist's rape. Her life would be different, but how? There is a hoary old myth that women who are successful in non-traditional fields are somehow failures a "normal" women. The scientist in the original time-line could have fit into this stereotype, brilliant and driven in her work, but socially dysfunctional. The storyline here rejected that myth. The changed scientist was just as successful as a scientist, while being happy and gregarious. >I found it very interesting how the story explores the question whether >it is justifiable to kill a person who have not yet commited the crimes >he is going to be executed for in future. In other words, to kill one yet The scientist had a way of justifying her killing: all the men she killed has already been properly tried, convicted, and executed "before" she killed them. She was merely carrying out a legal sentence, just doing it early and actually preventing the crimes. Without capital punishment, she could not have used the same argument. (An alternative argument could be that taking one life to save an innocent life is justified, and in these cases she could be absolutely certain she was saving lives.) Howard Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services Montreal, Quebec, Canada alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:08:51 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: students and sexuality in feminist sf In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716135648.00701a18@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Insufficient data: as critical thinking contiues to be eliminated, a > potentially important part of your qestion is the ages of the people > involved. A "generation gap" hypothesis relating to less and less > intellectual capability might account for your data at least as well as a > "gender" hypothesis. > > > Neil Rest > I am beginning to have real problems with the debate around the supposed ignorance of younger readers. How many of us experienced being the interested ones in our classes? If all our students were interested, critical, sensitive and automatically open minded none of us would have jobs. We could set them one research essay at the beginning of the first year and hand them their degrees the following week. Let's have patience please! We are there to inspire them, not condemn them. Nothing is as wonderful as watching a student change. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:18:52 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: Mars and social justice In-Reply-To: <11870021@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Daniel L Krashin wrote: > Just a few thoughts on the Pathfinder discussion, since I didn't get a chance > to write anything about it all week. I was frankly surprised at how negative > people were about the space program -- I hope there are a lot of listmembers > out there who are more positive about space exploration but less outspoken. > Thank you Daniel , having missed the moonlanding (too young) the Mars landing was just about one of the most exciting *happenings* in this sf reader's life. (minf you, I liked Waterworld too!) Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:38:46 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: Overpopulation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970724083111.006bac2c@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > (Incidentally, there is a second factor in controlling birth rates which > has only recently begun to get major attention. It will be no surprise to > members of this list that family size is inversely proportinal to education > and economic opportunity for females.) > > > Neil Rest > It is also worth mentioning that the longer the period of compuslory education the greater the incentive to keep family size small. Children are no longer a potential help to the family budget, they become instead a burden. Thus as well as education for women, one way to bring family size down (should you think it desirable) is to shift the economic balance. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:48:51 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: Tank Girl: was : Movies, Alien 4 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > Tank Girl is absolutely fantastic, anyone who hasn't seen it definitely > > should, it is very fierce young feminist and fabulous fun. Not only one > > but two terrific female heroes, tank and jet girl, out to save the young > > girl who is anything but helpless herself. > > > > robin. > > I also enjoyed Tank Girl a lot (except for the Roos, but then I'm > allergic to muppets and pseudo-muppets), and particularly the performance > of the woman who played the title character (Laura Petty?) Yet just about > every review I've ever seen of the movie has been lukewarm to negative. > > I'd be interested in hearing other people's opinions of this movie. > > Mike Levy > I really enjoyed Tank Girl, but in a world without water, isn't it wonderful how one can always find a make-up counter? Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:53:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: F Mendlesohn Subject: Re: TINKs In-Reply-To: <970726011124_-1608852567@emout09.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > So--can anyone think of stories/novels dealing with birth control? "Even the > Queen" is the only one that comes to mind right now for me. > > Nicole > Even the Queen is about periods, not birth control. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:27:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: female quest narratives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 24 July, 1997, Erik Tsao wrote: >Speaking of female quest narratives, I had a student this morning present >on an essay on Orson Scott Card's _Ender's Game_ series. The essay used >Otto Rank's concept of the hero monomyth to examine the Card series. Of >course, Card is not really a feminist sf writer, but the concept of the >monomyth is interesting especially since it can be seen as the primary >structure in many quest narratives. In fact, two of the novels I taught >that could be called feminist, Elizabeth Moon's _Sheepfarmer's Daughter_, >and Joan D. Vinge's _The Snow Queen_ do follow this format. The problem of >course is that you could probably reduce all quest narratives to this >formalist theory thus over-simplifying the text. In any case, what do you >all think? Sorry to take so long to respond; I was gone again. I agree that most fantasy and SF can be boiled down to a basic quest narrative. In this case, I'd ask your student to use Rank's ideas as a tool to get at the heart of Card's book. For instance, does Card change or embellish any of the stages? How? Why? How are male interests versus female interests served in that book within the monomyth framework? (I always liked Valentine and thought she got shafted by the story.) Things like that. As I may have said, I think Annis Pratt's book Archetypal Patterns in Women's Fiction is a good counterpart to the work done by Campbell, etc., and I see some women SF authors really turning quest narratives around in some recent books, so things like that might be good for perspective. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Pesh, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:40:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: female quest narratives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 25 July, 1997, Ildney Cavalcanti wrote: >I agree that the concept of the hero monomyth *is* simplistic and maybe too >formalist. On the other hand, it appears to be very useful in order to >stress one of the gender differences in quest narratives. Collective >protagonists (as opposed to *one* female hero - or heroine - I still have >not chosen which term to use...) abound in feminist sf. That's one of the patterns that has struck me about feminist fantasy and SF too, the idea of more than one protagonist, all equal, working together and pooling strengths so that all reach the end of the quest, rather than having one protagonist with an obvious support group. Do you think that this kind of pattern holds true, or is it something I've just seen in the books I've read? I'd be curious to know, and most of you on this list are a lot more well-read than I am! =-> Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Pesh, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:46:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: female quest narratives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 29 July, 1997, Ildney Cavalcanti wrote: >Writing about the quest versus the romance plot, DuPlessis makes use of both >terms in different contexts. She uses heroine when she's discussing romance >plots, and female hero for the quest plots. One of the points she argues is >that, in nineteenth-century fictions, narratives featuring women >protagonists could start as a quest plot, but then the female hero had, in >most cases, to be accommodated into the role of a romance heroine by the end >of the story. I agree with her point, but still find the term "female hero" >a bit awkward... Any suggestions? That's what I do too. I hate the term female hero, but I haven't hit on another term to describe what I mean. The term seems particularly inappropriate and even demeaning when considering that female heroism can be light-years different from male heroism, which we've standardized in our culture. Elizabeth -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Pesh, "Seaward" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:51:06 -0400 Reply-To: Robin Gordon Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: female quest narratives In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Elizabeth Pandolfo wrote: > > That's one of the patterns that has struck me about feminist fantasy and SF > too, the idea of more than one protagonist, all equal, working together and > pooling strengths so that all reach the end of the quest, rather than > having one protagonist with an obvious support group. Do you think that > this kind of pattern holds true, or is it something I've just seen in the > books I've read? I'd be curious to know, and most of you on this list are > > Elizabeth > I think that's probably one theme in feminist quest literature, though a lot of the women's adventure sf that I've ready by women with strong women characters (I would call feminist) still embraces the central character struggling against difficult odds in a relatively lonely quest, proving her -individual- strength and intelligence and wisdom. I just started Freedom's Choice, the sequel to Freedom's Landing, by Anne McCaffery, and I was thinking about the female protagonist, who is certainly smart and strong and driven. Despite the future setting, she is one of few women in the front ranks of the 'refugee' society attempting to survive and discover the mystery of the planet they've been dropped on. It got me thinking that one common aspect of many women heroes is to be a kind of pioneer, the sole woman in a man's world, needing not only to prove herself with relation to the quests goal but also to prove herself to her teammates or cohorts or whoever. It's interesting that even in future or alternate world settings authors often use this extra challenge as part of the context in which women heroes act. Certainly modern women readers will identify strongly with the heroism of fighting for recognition and acceptance, perhaps especially a lot of the women who read science fiction, who may be women in tranditionally male occupations (or the world of science generally). robin. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:06:35 -0700 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: female quest narratives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ildney Cavalcanti wrote: > > of the story. I agree with her point, but still find the term "female hero" > a bit awkward... Any suggestions? Best, > > Ildney Susanna J. Sturgis takes up this problem in "The Women Who Walk Through Fire: A Vindication of Heras and Heraism" (which is the introductory essay to the feminist sf anthology, _The Women Who Walk Through Fire: Women's Fantasy & Science Fiction, Vol.2_). She comes up with "hera" as a suggestive term that encompasses both meanings (& more) of the word. She notes, "Real-life feminist heras often become visible by passing some kind of test." (Hence, "walking through fire"-- a test they don't always realize they've let themselves in for taking-- but which, when they find themselves taking, transforms them into "heras." "To walk through fire," Sturgis says, "is to face the questions, to risk being singed, to be changed, to be changed utterly." Timmi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:45:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: female quest narratives In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elizabeth Pandolfo replied: >On 25 July, 1997, Ildney Cavalcanti wrote: > >>I agree that the concept of the hero monomyth *is* simplistic and maybe too >>formalist. On the other hand, it appears to be very useful in order to >>stress one of the gender differences in quest narratives. Collective >>protagonists (as opposed to *one* female hero - or heroine - I still have >>not chosen which term to use...) abound in feminist sf. > >That's one of the patterns that has struck me about feminist fantasy and SF >too, the idea of more than one protagonist, all equal, working together and >pooling strengths so that all reach the end of the quest, rather than >having one protagonist with an obvious support group. It's somewhat off-list, but many of the teaching stories of Idries Shah emphasize that it takes a group to achieve. Many of these stories are folk tales or very close to "fairy tales". Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:41:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: female quest narratives (LONG) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:40 7/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >On 25 July, 1997, Ildney Cavalcanti wrote: > >>I agree that the concept of the hero monomyth *is* simplistic and maybe too >>formalist. On the other hand, it appears to be very useful in order to >>stress one of the gender differences in quest narratives. Collective >>protagonists (as opposed to *one* female hero - or heroine - I still have >>not chosen which term to use...) abound in feminist sf. > >That's one of the patterns that has struck me about feminist fantasy and SF >too, the idea of more than one protagonist, all equal, working together and >pooling strengths so that all reach the end of the quest, rather than >having one protagonist with an obvious support group. Do you think that >this kind of pattern holds true, or is it something I've just seen in the >books I've read? I'd be curious to know, and most of you on this list are >a lot more well-read than I am! =-> > >Elizabeth > > Well, I can think of some counter-arguments. Cordelia Naismith, in Lois McMaster Bujold's _Vorkosigan_ series, definitely behaves like the traditional hero, with an obvious support group. And a number of stories have the young woman leave home (often to escape incest, or having experienced it) to find themselves thrown into a quest situation, without much support. (Oddly enough, quite a few of these young women wind up with dragons as helpers. Pat Wrede's _Enchanted Forest_ series, for example.) The major differences I find between the male and female quests sums up this way: The young man usually doesn't know much about his parentage or history. The young woman usually does; she's often the child of an important or ruling family. Neither of them have a mother, in most of the stories. The young man's daily activities and abilities turn out to be just what he needs to know for his quest. The girl is often taught the "proper" things for her gender; she frequently rebels against this, and learns to fight, use magic, or whatever, which also turns out useful. The Call to Adventure is usually brought to a young man by a mysterious, magical, or otherworldly messenger. The Call comes to a girl out of some situation, her status, or by chance. The young man goes on quest because some deed needs doing, or because he can't avoid it. The young woman often gets driven out -- by family or by invasion of some sort, and the quest motif follows. Both young men and young women usually have companions. The young man is less apt to use magic than the young women. Accompanied by his companions, the young man must journey into danger. He leaves an uncertain and (usually) unsatisfactory situation for a new life of action. The young woman usually must cross some significant threshhold, leaving an apparently safe home (or garden) for the wider world, adventure, learning. The Threat for the young man often includes evil magic or conquest; the stakes are high, to gain freedom for his country or his world, or to avert some universal, horrible threat. The young woman usually faces a danger that at first seems to threaten herself alone, but soon expands to involve far more than her personal well-being. During the Adventure stage: the young man often must overcome his enemies in battle, either physical or political, using the weapons he has become skilled at using. The young woman often wins by wit, intelligence, and moral superiority. If she has to fight, however, she usually does so quite well. Both of them enjoy very good luck. The young man usually must overcome 1) physical danger; and 2) psychological danger, often presented as emotional undermining or uncertainty as to the wisdom of his course of action; and 3) trickery and deceit, often from a Delilah figure. The young woman must overcome 1) physical danger (often sexual), 2) psychological danger (often presented as gender-linked: women can't -- or shouldn't -- do this); and 3) trickery and deceit, often from a villain disguised as a hero. The success of the quest also differs. The young man returns to recognition of 1) his true name and family; 2) his true status; 3) the value of his contribution; 4) a celebration (sometimes a wedding). On a social level, the "proper" form of government is restored, and the hero may be named ruler or at least important in the government. The young woman returns to 1) a united family; 2) a stabilized society; 3) an appropriate mate (often collected on the journey). Her society will benefit from the leadership of the newly established ruling family, although the woman may play a role secondary to her mate's. The form of government may seem much improved, and the new society much more utopian than before. I developed this list of contrasts for my Fantasy class, and so far we've found that many (NOT all) books follow it pretty well. Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:56:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Tank Girl: was : Movies, Alien 4 / 5th Element << I really enjoyed Tank Girl, but in a world without water, isn't it wonderful how one can always find a make-up counter? >> I went to see 5th Element at the "cheap theater" the other day--y'know, movies like that are depressing not just for the obvious sexism (apparently if you're female you have to be almost totally passive and look like a rag doll to save the Universe), but because they *could* have been so much better. During the 1st half or so I thought it was promising; unfortunately it degraded from there. I felt the same way about Stargate. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:57:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: TINKs << Even the Queen is about periods, not birth control. >> Right, but didn't the method they used to overcome their cycles also keep them from getting pregnant? Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:02:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: WARNING: horn toot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A sheepish one, but a horn toot nevertheless. I've been sitting on this news for some time now, but now that there's a press release, I can talk. I'm getting my first novel published! It's due out in summer of 1998, so it'll be FOREVER before anyone sees it. -nalo "You'll say reality is under no obligation to be interesting. To which I'd reply that reality may disregard the obligation but that we may not." -Jorge Luis Borges NEWS FROM WARNER BOOKS Warner Books, Inc. Time & Life Building 1271 Avenue of the Americas New York, New York 10020-1393 (212) 522-7974 (212) 522-7993 fax FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Jimmy Franco (212) 522-1237 WARNER ASPECT ANNOUNCES FIRST NOVEL CONTEST WINNER NEW YORK, NY - July 22, 1997 Warner Aspect announced today that it will publish the debut novel by the winner of the Warner Aspect First Novel Contest. Nalo Hopkinson, the author of BROWN GIRL IN THE RING, was chosen as the best entrant out of four finalists. Almost 1,000 manuscrip ts were sent in from all over the world. The final selection was made by Hugo Award-winning author C.J. Cherryh. The contest was open to authors who have not previously published a novel. Submissions were sent to Warner Aspect between June 1, 1996 and January 31, 1997, with entries from all over the world, including the United States, Great Britain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Australia and Germany. BROWN GIRL IN THE RING will be published as a trade paperback original in July 1998. BROWN GIRL IN THE RING, set in Toronto after the turn of the millennium, focuses on "the Burn," the inner city left when Toronto's economic base collapses. Young Ti-Jeanne lives with her grandmother, who runs a trade in Caribbean herbal medicine that is vital to the disenfranchised of the Burn. "I'm delighted to have found BROWN GIRL IN THE RING," said Betsy Mitchell, Editor-in-Chief of Warner Aspect. "As the publishers of Octavia E. Butler and LeVar Burton, Aspect has been searching for other authors of color in order to expand the boundaries of the SF/fantasy readership. Nalo has a unique new voice that brings to life a fascinating culture." C.J. Cherryh praised BROWN GIRL IN THE RING by calling the manuscript "Not your average urban fantasy, not your average science fiction story, not your average fantasy, but with something of all three, Caribbean folklore in a city of the conceivable futur e. Unusual and intriguing in concept...with all the payoffs you hope for in a story. Plus command of craft...swinging into and out of dialect and all in a mature style. I think Nalo Hopkinson has real promise as a writer." Nalo Hopkinson was born in Jamaica and grew up in Jamaica, Trinidad, and Guyana, moving to Canada when she was 16. She is a literary grants officer for the Toronto Arts Council. Of her writing she says, "I use Afro-Caribbean spirituality, oral history, culture and language in my stories, but place my characters within the idioms and settings of contemporary science fiction/fantasy. I see it as subverting the genre, which speaks so much about the experience of being alienated, but contains so little wri ting by alienated people themselves." In BROWN GIRL IN THE RING, a fascinating cast of characters combines with the rituals and beliefs of Afro-Caribbean magic to create an altogether original and compelling story by an intriguing new voice. The runners-up for the First Novel Contest were: * DULCINEA THE ARCHWITCH by Denise Weeks of Richardson, Texas * CURSE OF THE DRAGON EYES by Sharon Burris of Ardmore, Oklahoma * A MATTER OF FORM by Chris Sorenson Sims of Jericho, Vermont. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Outer Limits In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970729083841.21af51d2@rocler.qc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Howard, I completely agree with you that women seriously interested in something other than romance and family, are usually looked down upon as losers who somehow missed out on "real womanhood", or at least had an unhappy childhood. (Example: the heavily discussed on this list movie _Contact_. If I remember right, Jodie Foster's character did not have a very happy childhhood, which was supposed to explain her obsession with extraterrestrial contacts). It seems like any "unusual" behavior of a woman needs an "explanation", like a rare desease or abnormality. Another example: _Xena -the Worrior Princess_, which I used to like. Every episode of that show contains numerless references to her dark past. It is being explained again and again, that the only reason she is a hero is that she used to be a villain, and then "repented" and decided to serve good. This idea is most exploited during her encounters with Callisto. At the same time, _Hercules_, which is on right before _Xena_ presents a hero that never has any explanation, why he is roaming around fighting everyone instead of sitting at home and raising kids. He simply enjoys that kind of lifestile, which is accepted and admired. And therefore, he can be a hero without being a reformed criminal. Anyway, the Outer Limits presented something totally different -- confident, beautiful, seemingly happy woman that still is able to build a time machine. Another thing is that (maybe it is out of the topic) this episode remonded me of a huge argument I once had with my psychology professor. He talked about sex criminals, and how their behavior is very likely to be direct consequence of child abuse from an older female, usually mother. And I said, that if every _woman_ abused as a child went on a killing spree, there would be no males left in this world for a long, long time. He replied that there was not a lot of scientific evidence of female serial killers. So, women probably react on abuse differently, they may not feel it as strong. I do not think it's the case, and I believe that the reason why for girls the history of abuse is more likely to result in depression, alcoholism, and abusive relationships, rather than in violence, is that they are taught that any violent behavior is strictly male prerogative. However, the only other movie on this matter I've seen was _Never Talk to Strangers_. The main character there was not a scientist, nor did she seem to be in any way "disturbed", even though she had been repeatedly raped as a child by her father and then forced to help him cover her mother's murder (and the daddy was still alive and around). She was either a cop or a prosecuter and very good in catching serial killers. And at the same time, every time she fell in love, she became psychotic and eventually killed her lover. I apologize if this is off-topic, but I've been always interested in representation of female violence in culture. Any ideas -- maybe from science fiction? Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, HScott/PAronoff wrote: > There is a hoary > old myth that women who are successful in non-traditional fields are > somehow failures a "normal" women. The scientist in the original time-line > could have fit into this stereotype, brilliant and driven in her work, but > socially dysfunctional. The storyline here rejected that myth. The changed > scientist was just as successful as a scientist, while being happy and > gregarious. > > > The scientist had a way of justifying her killing: all the men she killed > has already been properly tried, convicted, and executed "before" she > killed them. She was merely carrying out a legal sentence, just doing it > early and actually preventing the crimes. Without capital punishment, she > could not have used the same argument. (An alternative argument could be > that taking one life to save an innocent life is justified, and in these > cases she could be absolutely certain she was saving lives.) > > Howard > > Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services > Montreal, Quebec, Canada > alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:10:13 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: TINKs In-Reply-To: <970726011124_-1608852567@emout09.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>And if you had the lifestyle and the income of the Tinks (and I >>personally know a few myself who are in exactly this position and for >>whom the biological clock is ticking) - ask yourself; which would you >>choose? Kids or no kids? > >Whoa Melanie, that was quite an essay!! ;-) Yes, Melanie - VERY impressive! I guess I don't see making the decision not to have children as selfish. What I see as selfish is someone making the decision to have children without having a CLUE as to what is involved. Even worse, I think it's selfish to continue to have both parents working while the children are pre-school age just because they want a second car or a huge, expensive home or another TV or VCT or CD or the list goes on and on.........And, yes, I'm saying someone's career should be put on hold. It doesn't mean it has to be the woman - nosirree, Bob. Those first five years are the most important in a child's development; why have children if you're going to give someone else the opportunity to actually raise them? However, I am completely understanding of couples who just couldn't afford to have one of them stay home - not because sacrificing that income would mean no trip to Oahu that year, but because it would mean no food, clothing or shelter. Laura (don't even get me STARTED on the lack of parenting skills I see all around me!) Wigod ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:03:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: WARNING: horn toot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *big grins* Nalo, Congratulations. I'm looking forward to reading it... Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:34:55 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Hello...I'm delurking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone: I've been meaning to subscribe for a couple of months now, and have finally gotten around to it. One of my friends at work (thanks Berni!) told me about this list. My name is Cynthia Gonsalves, and I'm going to be the wonderful prime number age of 37 in two weeks. I'm currently employed by a semiconductor manufacturer in Sunnyvale, CA as a senior materials engineer, but my bachelor's degree is in chemistry with an emphasis on analytical, physical, and inorganic chemistry. This pays for my severe addiction to the printed word and helps keep my cat supplied with the necessities of her existence. I'm single, and am the auntie of 7.333 children (4 nieces, 3 nephews, and one in the fetal stage). I hope I will get a lot of good food for thought as well as more fodder for my addiction here. I also love Babylon 5, Xena, and the older forms of Trek (DS9 is fine, but Voyager tries my patience sorely). I was rejoicing earlier this month when I heard we were going to be able to see the whole story arc of B5 unfold, but then Berni forwarded the distressing news about losing one of the very few strong women characters we currently have in a science fiction or fantasy series. Grrrrr!!! Among all the commentary in the B5 newsgroups about this issue in the last week or so, someone posed the question of exactly who was upset by Ivanova's departure from B5 and suggested that the furor was basically confined to the 18-34 male demographic sector, who will miss some eye candy. Is this all Hollywierd thinks the public wants in entertainment? Besides my losing the interesting and complicated character of Ivanova in the near future, I've also had to witness the dumbing down of the female characters on DS9, and Voyager is a whole 'nother can of worms. These developments disappoint me severely. I would enjoy hearing from anyone out there who wants to discuss strong roles for women in science fiction and fantasy TV and movies. Since this may not be of interest to the whole list, please feel free to contact me directly at my home email address (cynthia1960@home.com). Thanks again, Cynthia -- Total pleasure is a good book, a comfortable couch, and a cat curled up beside you. http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:45:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: TINKs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought I'd read everything in this thread, but no. Stupid question: What is a "Tink?" Thanks, Lindy Laura Wigod wrote: > > >>And if you had the lifestyle and the income of the Tinks (and I > >>personally know a few myself who are in exactly this position and for > >>whom the biological clock is ticking) - ask yourself; which would you > >> (snip, snip snip. . .) -- "Egotism--usually a case of mistaken nonentity." Barbara Stanwyck http://www.best.com/~laorka ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:10:44 -0700 Reply-To: peggyh@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Peggy Hamilton Subject: Re: Xena, Female Heroes (was Outer Limits) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At the same time, _Hercules_, which is on right before _Xena_ presents a > hero that never has any explanation, why he is roaming around fighting > everyone instead of sitting at home and raising kids. He simply enjoys > that kind of lifestile, which is accepted and admired. And therefore, he > can be a hero without being a reformed criminal. > I have a slight disagreement here. Although I don't follow Hercules very closely I did watch enough of the establishing episodes to know that they did explain why he is roaming around being a hero. He was married, with children, and all he wanted was to be left alone to raise his family, but Hera wanted to punish Zeus by persecuting him and first she stole Hercules' wife, and he was roaming around trying to find her, then Hera killed her. I haven't watched enough to know whether the kids got killed to, or Hercules is just afraid to get to close to them because it would put them in danger. Xena was introduced as a baddie, and only reformed when they realized how popular she was and wanted to give her her own series. This situation requires a little more explanation than someone who was always good. Gabrielle has always been good, and follows the adventurous path largely because she wants to. This association is one of the reasons I have a problem with "hera" as the feminine form of "hero." When I see hera I think of the goddess, who is not a particularly heroic figure. My vote for the term to use for a woman hero is hero. A woman doctor is a doctor, why can't a woman hero be a hero? Peggy Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:10:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: WARNING: horn toot Woo-hoo!! Congrats Nalo!! Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:06:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tara Ayres Subject: Re: WARNING: horn toot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC9C64.390C47A0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC9C64.390C47A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Congratulations! I can't wait to read it! Tara Ayres ---------- From: Nalo Hopkinson[SMTP:bl213@FREENET.TORONTO.ON.CA] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:02 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: WARNING: horn toot A sheepish one, but a horn toot nevertheless. I've been sitting on this news for some time now, but now that there's a press release, I can talk. I'm getting my first novel published! It's due out in summer of 1998, so it'll be FOREVER before anyone sees it. -nalo "You'll say reality is under no obligation to be interesting. To which I'd reply that reality may disregard the obligation but that we may not." -Jorge Luis Borges NEWS FROM WARNER BOOKS Warner Books, Inc. Time & Life Building 1271 Avenue of the Americas New York, New York 10020-1393 (212) 522-7974 (212) 522-7993 fax FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Jimmy Franco (212) 522-1237 WARNER ASPECT ANNOUNCES FIRST NOVEL CONTEST WINNER NEW YORK, NY - July 22, 1997 Warner Aspect announced today that it will publish the debut novel by the winner of the Warner Aspect First Novel Contest. Nalo Hopkinson, the author of BROWN GIRL IN THE RING, was chosen as the best entrant out of four finalists. Almost 1,000 manuscrip ts were sent in from all over the world. The final selection was made by Hugo Award-winning author C.J. Cherryh. The contest was open to authors who have not previously published a novel. Submissions were sent to Warner Aspect between June 1, 1996 and January 31, 1997, with entries from all over the world, including the United States, Great Britain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Australia and Germany. BROWN GIRL IN THE RING will be published as a trade paperback original in July 1998. BROWN GIRL IN THE RING, set in Toronto after the turn of the millennium, focuses on "the Burn," the inner city left when Toronto's economic base collapses. Young Ti-Jeanne lives with her grandmother, who runs a trade in Caribbean herbal medicine that is vital to the disenfranchised of the Burn. "I'm delighted to have found BROWN GIRL IN THE RING," said Betsy Mitchell, Editor-in-Chief of Warner Aspect. "As the publishers of Octavia E. Butler and LeVar Burton, Aspect has been searching for other authors of color in order to expand the boundaries of the SF/fantasy readership. Nalo has a unique new voice that brings to life a fascinating culture." C.J. Cherryh praised BROWN GIRL IN THE RING by calling the manuscript "Not your average urban fantasy, not your average science fiction story, not your average fantasy, but with something of all three, Caribbean folklore in a city of the conceivable futur e. Unusual and intriguing in concept...with all the payoffs you hope for in a story. Plus command of craft...swinging into and out of dialect and all in a mature style. I think Nalo Hopkinson has real promise as a writer." Nalo Hopkinson was born in Jamaica and grew up in Jamaica, Trinidad, and Guyana, moving to Canada when she was 16. She is a literary grants officer for the Toronto Arts Council. Of her writing she says, "I use Afro-Caribbean spirituality, oral history, culture and language in my stories, but place my characters within the idioms and settings of contemporary science fiction/fantasy. I see it as subverting the genre, which speaks so much about the experience of being alienated, but contains so little wri ting by alienated people themselves." In BROWN GIRL IN THE RING, a fascinating cast of characters combines with the rituals and beliefs of Afro-Caribbean magic to create an altogether original and compelling story by an intriguing new voice. The runners-up for the First Novel Contest were: * DULCINEA THE ARCHWITCH by Denise Weeks of Richardson, Texas * CURSE OF THE DRAGON EYES by Sharon Burris of Ardmore, Oklahoma * A MATTER OF FORM by Chris Sorenson Sims of Jericho, Vermont. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC9C64.390C47A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgwCAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AIQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAHcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABGb3IgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBmZW1pbmlzdCBTRiwgZmFudGFzdGljICYgdXRvcGlh biBsaXRlcmF0dXJlAFNNVFAARkVNSU5JU1RTRkBMSVNUU0VSVi5VSUMuRURVAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUA AABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHAAAAEZFTUlOSVNUU0ZATElTVFNFUlYuVUlDLkVEVQADABUMAQAA AAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAABAAAAAJ0ZvciBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9mIGZlbWluaXN0IFNGLCBmYW50 YXN0aWMgJiB1dG9waWFuIGxpdGVyYXR1cmUnAAIBCzABAAAAIQAAAFNNVFA6RkVNSU5JU1RTRkBM SVNUU0VSVi5VSUMuRURVAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADzVQBCIAH 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Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Xena, Female Heroes (was Outer Limits) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peggy Hamilton wrote: > I have a slight disagreement here. Although I don't follow Hercules > very closely I did watch enough of the establishing episodes to know > that they did explain why he is roaming around being a hero. He was > married, with children, and all he wanted was to be left alone to > raise > his family, but Hera wanted to punish Zeus by persecuting him and > first > she stole Hercules' wife, and he was roaming around trying to find > her, > then Hera killed her. I haven't watched enough to know whether the > kids > got killed to, or Hercules is just afraid to get to close to them > because it would put them in danger. > > Xena was introduced as a baddie, and only reformed when they realized > how popular she was and wanted to give her her own series. This > situation requires a little more explanation than someone who was > always > good. Gabrielle has always been good, and follows the adventurous > path > largely because she wants to. > > This association is one of the reasons I have a problem with "hera" as > > the feminine form of "hero." When I see hera I think of the goddess, > who is not a particularly heroic figure. > > My vote for the term to use for a woman hero is hero. A woman doctor > > is a doctor, why can't a woman hero be a hero? > > Peggy Hamilton I've tried to watch Hercules, and I much prefer Xena because she isn't a puppet of the gods, she's actually trying to transform herself. As for "hera" instead of "hero", it reminds me of some of the machinations various people have taken in trying to eliminate male-centered terminology from their language (I'm thinking of Mary Daly as one of its more vivid practitioners). Another thing that comes to mind is Jean Shinoda Bolen's Jungian discussion, Goddesses in Everywoman, where Hera is used as one of the major archetypes. I agree with Peggy, call a hero an hero. (I haven't gotten to the point where I start spitting bullets when the word heroine is used though). Cynthia -- Total pleasure is a good book, a comfortable couch, and a cat curled up beside you. http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:30:05 -0500 Reply-To: anderbdm@win.bright.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Dawn L. Anderson" Subject: Re: Xena, Female Heroes (was Outer Limits) Comments: To: cynthia1960@home.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia Gonsalves wrote: > > I haven't watched enough to know whether the > > kids > > got killed to, or Hercules is just afraid to get to close to them > > because it would put them in danger. > > > > Hi just thought I would put my two cents in here. So far the show has been pretty close to the story except that supposedly Hera did something to Hercules to make (him) kill his wife and children. They had Hera kill his wife and children in the show. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:35:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: What to call those hero-ines? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's obvious: Make the men change. Then we'll have himmos and heros. -- Susan Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:25:22 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildney Cavalcanti Subject: Re: female quest narratives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Timmi wrote: She comes up with "hera" as >a suggestive term that encompasses both meanings (& more) of the word. >She notes, "Real-life feminist heras often become visible by passing >some kind of test." (Hence, "walking through fire"-- a test they don't >always realize they've let themselves in for taking-- but which, when >they find themselves taking, transforms them into "heras." "To walk >through fire," Sturgis says, "is to face the questions, to risk being >singed, to be changed, to be changed utterly." Thanks, Timmi. I'll try and get hold of the Sturgis text, and will add hera to my list of possibilities. By the way, are the protagonists in Charnas's The Furies not referred to as *heras* at some point? Ildney> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:34:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Re: WARNING: horn toot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nalo, Congratulations. If I run out and buy the first copy will you sign it for me? I live in Toronto. Good to see Canadians getting recognized in any field. Again, Congratulations David Silver Thornhill, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:11:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: -<] horn toot [>- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nalo! A big yay! I'm off to email Betsy Mitchell and see how soon I can read it!! (there are perks to being a bookseller -- I may see it by the end of '97!) Best, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:13:41 -0700 Reply-To: Sharle@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon McCaffrey Subject: Re: Outer Limits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HScott/PAronoff wrote: > > Probably my favourite _Outer Limits_ episode. I'm always a sucker for time > travel and time paradox stories, and this one had some important social > themes (dealing with the trauma of rape, how society deals with repeat > sexual offenders, capital punishment, abortion rights, the use of fetal > tissue in research...). The acting was a big factor in the success of the > episode. The scientist is played by Amanda Plummer and the cop by Michelle > Forbes (Ensign Ro Laren to us Trekkies). > > SPOILERS BELOW: > > At 10:55 PM 22/7/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Did anyone see _The Outer Limits_ this weekend? It's about a female > >scientists who invents a time machine and uses it to go back to the past > >and kill convicted sexual criminals before they kill their first victim. > >Another woman, police officer, tracks her down just before the scientist > >goes back to kill the man that raped her as a teenager. > > > >If anyone seen it, please tell me what you think. > > > >Marina > > I think Amanda Plummer especially did a great acting job. A scientific > genius, but one obsessed and in endless pain from being held prisoner and > raped repeatedly as a young teen. Her killing of serial rapist/killers > to-be did not help her with her personal pain; ironically it multiplied > because she still remembered every possible universe she destroyed. She was > only saving others from the similar pain. > > When she finally took the step that erased/prevented her own pain, she > "un-saved" all those other women, and restored the cop's pain at the murder > of her best friend. > > So in this story, the time-travel paradox is not about the fate of the > planet or of the galaxy, but the pain of rape victims and those who love them. > > Howard > > Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services > Montreal, Quebec, Canada > alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca I agree it was a great story. I felt badly for the woman scientist and her pain. I like stories about time travel a lot. I'm intrigued by the various theories about time. Some people believe that the past present and future exist simultaneously and that our reality in just one portion of it. I've over simplified it. Any how I'd love to got into the past. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:47:45 -0500 Reply-To: Heather Whipple Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: what's selfish got to do with it? In-Reply-To: <33D7118B.F91@p085.aone.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII one more response to this old topic, but with an actual feminist sf example, a story by Eleanor Arnason that deals, in part, with birth control: "A Ceremony of Discontent" in _The Women Who Walk Through Fire_, edited by Susanna Sturgis. The Crossing Press, 1990 Why is a person *selfish* if she chooses not to have kids? I have never understood this argument. It seems to imply that it is everyone's duty to procreate (though I understand that that's not what Melanie meant to suggest), or that the decision to not have children somehow hurts or takes something away from someone else. Or that all truly Good and unselfish people "naturally" want children. Seems to me that the single best thing I can do for the planet (including all the children currently on it) is to not add another person to the mix, especially not, as in my case, another US citizen, since many of us have the honor of using up more resources per person than the rest of the world. Arnason's story contains a tale about the woman who found the plant that will prevent pregnancies, and this quote sums up my attitude toward the decision to be childless: [Ashotai is presented with two apparently identical plants to choose from; after some investigation, she finds that one tastes wonderful and the other tastes sour and bitter.] "Ashotai sat down and thought. Finally she said, 'The plant I seek will give people the ability to choose. And every real choice is bitter. If you choose to do one thing, then you lose the chance to do other things that may be just as pleasant or interesting. Because of this, it can be said--in every choice is the seed of regret, like the sour pit or core of a fruit. I think the bitter plant is the one I seek.'" The choice to not have children is as much a sacrifice of possibilities as the choice to have them--so why should one choice be considered more selfish than the other? Even for the "Tinks" in Melanie's story. How would they be less selfish if they added a child to all their belongings and extravagancies? If they *do not want children*, why is it selfish not to have them? *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lisa Leedy Subject: Re: students and sexuality in feminist sf Hi, as a college student I'm very happy to hear such an attitude expressed. Feminism was a dirty word in my home town, never once mentioned at school, so my female role models were usually all in books. Here at college (now that I'm almost thru) we have finally obtained a minor in Womens studies---this at a college were the public safety director says we don't need more lighting because it would encourage young women to be out of their dorms at night-apparently he felt we should stay indoors after dark. At any rate, how does one begin to be familiar with the terminology and subjects that are being applied to these discussions. I'm very familiar w/scifi, but would like to find a source of info so I can fully participate in some of the deeper disc. on this thread. Thanks , Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:11:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: forwarded by list-mistress: help requested Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII forwarded by moderator: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:02:12 +0100 From: "Jon Lingard-Lane, Zip Theatre" To: FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Rejected posting to FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thanks for info re the rejected posting of my message earlier today. Sorry to trouble you. The content of my message was as follows: >I am writing a Christmas Show for children based on Grimm's BEAUTY AND THE BEAST and >would welcome pointers to resources on the Web exploring the feminist issues inherent >in the story. If you are able to help or direct me how to post this message to a relevant newsgroup, I'd be really grateful. Thanks a lot - Jon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:28:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Hercules Comments: To: Peggy Hamilton In-Reply-To: <33DE9485.38A3@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My problem with the series Hercules is that the original was a hard drinking alcoholic, given to rapine and binges of violence while drunk, followed up by periods of extreme remorse. A complex character to make a hero, at the very least. The sanitized modern day version bugs my ass. -nalo "You'll say reality is under no obligation to be interesting. To which I'd reply that reality may disregard the obligation but that we may not." -Jorge Luis Borges ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:44:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Re: Tank Girl: was : Movies, Alien 4 / 5th Element In a message dated 97-07-29 19:16:29 EDT, NYOUNGMAN@AOL.COM (Nicole Youngman) writes: > I went to see 5th Element at the "cheap theater" the other day--y'know, > movies like that are depressing not just for the obvious sexism (apparently > if you're female you have to be almost totally passive and look like a rag > doll to save the Universe), but because they *could* have been so much > better. During the 1st half or so I thought it was promising; unfortunately > it degraded from there. I felt the same way about Stargate. > I couldn't agree more, Nicole. Great set-up in both, and very disappointing second half. Frankly I can't understand why Stargate has achieved cult status, so much so that a TV series just started on Showtime. I thought it was pretty lame. Maybe someone on this list can explain it. Why is Stargate so popular? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:54:12 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Hercules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > My problem with the series Hercules is that the original was a hard > drinking alcoholic, given to rapine and binges of violence while > drunk, > followed up by periods of extreme remorse. A complex character to > make a > hero, at the very least. The sanitized modern day version bugs my > ass. > That's why I'll take Xena over the current Hercules any day. She's in a process of transformation, and that is endlessly fascinating. By the way, congratulations Nalo!!! I'll be looking for your book when it hits the Bay Area. Cynthia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:27:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: feminist sci-fi terminology (was students and sexuality in feminist sf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lisa Leedy wrote: >At any >rate, how does one begin to be familiar with the terminology and subjects >that are being applied to these discussions. I'm very familiar w/scifi, but >would like to find a source of info so I can fully participate in some of the >deeper disc. on this thread. I would say maybe reading some of the feminist criticism on feminist sci-fi. There are a number of good books you can probably find in your college library, or ask them to ilr (inter-library loan) it from another library. Joanna Russ has a collection of essays which came out a few years ago. That might be a good place to start. It also might be worthwhile to look at some of the novels that are being discussed. At least then you'll have some sort of context in which to work. You might also want to look at the web page which is associated with this list. There's a good bib of lit crit on feminist sci-fi, fantasy and utopian literature. Is that helpful? I hope so. Good luck and good reading! Sincerely, Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: stargate (was Tank Girl, etc.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anny Middon wrote: >Frankly I can't understand why Stargate has achieved cult >status, so much so that a TV series just started on Showtime. I thought it >was pretty lame. > >Maybe someone on this list can explain it. Why is Stargate so popular? It might have something to do with the popularity of Egypt (or representations of Egypt--no matter how poor) in American culture. I myself had a BIG problem with the way that the Egyptian Gods, and the Egyptians themselves, were portrayed in this movie. Why portray the Egyptian gods as malevolent aliens, and the Egyptians as dupes of these extra-terrestrial con men? Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "The naked Senses sometimes see too little -- but then _always_ they see too much." --Edgar Allan Poe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:07:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: stargate (was Tank Girl, etc.) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Erik Tsao wrote: > Anny Middon wrote: > >Frankly I can't understand why Stargate has achieved cult > >status, so much so that a TV series just started on Showtime. I thought it > >was pretty lame. > > > >Maybe someone on this list can explain it. Why is Stargate so popular? > > It might have something to do with the popularity of Egypt (or > representations of Egypt--no matter how poor) in American culture. I > myself had a BIG problem with the way that the Egyptian Gods, and the > Egyptians themselves, were portrayed in this movie. Why portray the > Egyptian gods as malevolent aliens, and the Egyptians as dupes of these > extra-terrestrial con men? dupes? The Egyptians were the ones who kicked the "gods" off of our planet in the first place. I don't know that much about Egyptian mythology, but if it was anything like Greek Mythology, humans were seem as pawns and slaves of capricious human-like gods. I liked it. I didn't like everything about it, especially that the main bad guy was the only person of indeterminate sex, though he? was quite a visual treat. Also, how many times have you heard that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic? Those "alien con men" basically were gods. For an alien-influence explanation of Egypt, I thought it was damn flattering. What else was going to happen after this supposedly great set-up? Were we going to meet the galactic federation? The Egyptian space-faring society? I thought that the explanation given was quite complete and "neat". I also enjoyed the conflict between science, military, and caring/compassion. There were at least two complex characters on the alien planet, the scientist who became more active and interactive and less bumbling, head-in-the-clouds brainiac, and the military leader who battled with military orders and emotional distance on the one hand and emotional presence and involvement on the other. So, while it has been a while, I liked the entire movie except for it's non or anti feminist and queer aspects. And I didn't like it just because it dealt with Egypt. I think mostly I liked the originality of the movie (at least as far as movies/tv shows go), the stunning visuals, and the tone of the movie (It embraced exploration, science, and personal emotion. Even the tense part at the end was mainly linked to a personal emotional struggle rather than some sort of war thing (though that was there)). Anyway, I'd like to see more sf movies like it but feminist and queer. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:23:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Stargate In-Reply-To: <970730184328_378822983@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 06:44 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Anny Middon wrote: >Frankly I can't understand why Stargate has achieved cult >status, so much so that a TV series just started on Showtime. I thought it >was pretty lame. > >Maybe someone on this list can explain it. Why is Stargate so popular? I can't imagine. To me it seemed like just another Hollywood movie that started out somewhat intriguing, then collapsed into a shoddy, stereotypical second half. I was particularly disappointed in what happened with Jaye Davidson's god character (having watched _The Crying Game_ some time before, the contrast was striking). But I suppose it's no more inexplicable than the popularity of _Independence Day_. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:10:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jen Hill Subject: suggestions for teaching a short novel or short stories? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm teaching a freshman writing seminar this autumn called "Science Writes Women/Women Write Science" which will start off with Frankenstein, look at 19th c. theories of biology and evolution, look at careers, autobiographies, and writing of/by women scientists of the early 20th c., and finally end with "a look to the future" with Donna Haraway's "A Manifesto for Cyborgs" and either a short novel or a few short stories by (a) female sf writer(s) in which technology and gender are prominent issues. My problem: I'm not terribly well read in sf and what I _have_ read (novels by Octavia Butler, Piercy, & LeGuin) are too long to teach in the two weeks left in my semester. Any suggestions? I have not read Elizabeth Vonarburg, although I've read some criticism of her which suggests that her work might be of interest for this class... (She's not represented in Cornell's library, alas.) So, any suggestions for me? Target audience is made up of sharp, critically sophisticated (by the end of the semester, at least!) eighteen year old women... and the length of the work would, for a novel, have to be under two hundred pages. Otherwise, I'm looking for three or four short stories. Excerpts from a novel could work, too. You may post responses to the list if you think people will be interested. If not, you may email me privately (jh85@cornell.edu) and I will post a msg. summarizing the responses. Thanks in advance for all input! Jen Hill jh85@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:35:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Posting problem In-Reply-To: <970726165433_194289307@emout16.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The listserv software on campus does things in small batches. They shouldn't be TOO bad -- I get most of mine in correct order. I'll keep an eye on it, though. On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Jeanine Pedersen wrote: > I have noticed in the last week or so the e-mail I get from this list is > coming out of order, for example I got several of the replies to the > overpopulation post (tinks) prior to having received the original post -- on > the one hand it was very confusing, on the other hand it saved me the bother > of writing an irate response to it ;-) I also got the question on monomyth > prior to the monomyth post. Is anyone else having this problem or is it just > a typical aol screw up? (My -- what an idea aol screw up....lol) > Laura Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:51:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: suggestions for teaching a short novel or short stories? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jen, Try having a look at the short story collection "Women of Wonder: The Contemporary Years", edited by Pamela Sargent, ISBN # 0-15-600033-4. I'd look at the stories _Scorched Supper on New Niger_ by Suzy McKee Charnas, _Rachel in Love_ by Pat Murphy (great story! my favorite in the book.) and Carol Emshwiller's _Abominable_ (as well as Butler's _Bloodchild_). It's $15.00 and I think it's a trade paperback. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:40:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: suggestions for teaching a short novel or short stories? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'd suggest that you take a look at the stories in Pamela Sargent's two new Women of Wonder anthology's Women of Wonder: The Classic Years and Women of Wonder: the Contemporary Years. You might also want to check out the short fiction of Pat Cadigan and Nancy Kress Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:52:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: suggestions for teaching a short novel or short stories? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 03:10 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'm teaching a freshman writing seminar this autumn called "Science Writes >Women/Women Write Science" which will start off with Frankenstein >So, any suggestions for me? Target audience is made up of sharp, critically >sophisticated (by the end of the semester, at least!) eighteen year old >women... and the length of the work would, for a novel, have to be under >two hundred pages. Otherwise, I'm looking for three or four short stories. >Excerpts from a novel could work, too. I would suggest _The Clewiston Test_, by Kate Wilhelm. The main character is a woman scientist and the novel raises some still-timely feminist issues (as well as a number of other ethical issues relating to science and the corporate world). The novel is slightly over 200 pages (223 pages in my Pocket Science Fiction edition) and goes pretty quickly. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Feed Your Head, Volume 2; The Best of Márta Sebestyén "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:17:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: Re: goddesses, Fifth Sacred Thing In-Reply-To: <199707282130.QAA17482@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:30 PM 7/28/97 -0500, Joanna wrote: >Does anyone know of more feminist science fiction that deals with goddesses? >Elizabeth Hand's _Waking the Moon_ deals with the goddess in an interesting >way and so does Elisabeth Vonarburg in both _The Maerlande Chronicles_ and >_Reluctant Voyagers_. Starhawk's novel *The Fifth Sacred Thing* deals with Goddess spirituality with pagan (animistic) overtones, from an socialist, ecofeminist context. It's been a while since I read it, and I don't have my copy here, but any discussion about this book would be of interest to me. Also, I'd like to pose an earlier question that didn't garner much response last month -- I hope some new people on the list may be able to answer. Can anyone recommend any other good feminist science fiction that deals with issues of race and class? (I can HARDLY WAIT for Nalo's novel! Public kudos, I'm really thrilled.) Holly ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Issues of Race and Class. Was Re: goddesses, Fifth Sacred Thing In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970801211718.006b9ecc@m3.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Also, I'd like to pose an earlier question that didn't garner much response > last month -- I hope some new people on the list may be able to answer. Can > anyone recommend any other good feminist science fiction that deals with > issues of race and class? (I can HARDLY WAIT for Nalo's novel! Public > kudos, I'm really thrilled.) > > Holly > Melissa Scott deals with class issues as well as anyone in science fiction. See particularly Night Sky Mine and Dreaming Metal. Octavia Butler deals with race literally or symbolically in virtually all of her fiction, but see particularly Kindred. Race is of some importance in Karen Joy Fowler's Sarah Canary. Class issues play some role in Nicola Griffith's Slow River. Class issues play a central role in Nancy Kress's Beggars trilogy: Beggars in Spain, Beggars and Choosers (where they are perhaps most important), and Beggars Ride Class is an issue in Valery Martin's Mary Reilly. Race and class are both issues in Lisa Mason's The Golden Nineties. Race is a major issue in Maureen McHugh's Tiptree Award-winning China Mountain Zhang. Hope these help. Mike Levy levymm@uwec.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:46:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tamara K. Shaw" Organization: Silverhaven Productions Subject: Re: goddesses, Fifth Sacred Thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holly Yasui wrote: (Re: "The Fifth Sacred Thing): > discussion about this book would be of interest to me. I would be interested in discussions of this work also. Has anyone read the prequel yet? Is it out? > Also, I'd like to pose an earlier question that didn't garner much response > last month -- I hope some new people on the list may be able to answer. Can > anyone recommend any other good feminist science fiction that deals with > issues of race and class? I just finished Octavia Butler's "Clay's Ark" for the umpteenth time. It's a quick read and deals with how different people (women and men) are "strong" in different ways and at different times. Race is an underlying issue in parts of it, as is interracial marriage, class distinction and what makes us "human." Most of Butler's books deal with race in one way or another. > Holly Tamara tshaw@toolcity.net http://members.tripod.com/~Lilith_Silverhair/index.html