"FEMINISTSF LOG9708D" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:43:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Eleanor Arnason Subject: Re: feminist / nuclear question? "Tiny Tango" by Judith Moffett. All best, Eleanor A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:52:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Away at WorldCon Comments: To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv , DorothyL@listserv.kent.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Will be off the list for about a week and a half whilst staffing our booth at WorldCon in San Antonio. Any other folks attending the WorldCon should drop by and say, "hi!" Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:38:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi! I wonder if anyone saw _Event Horizon_, it just came to Oklahoma. The reason I decided to watch it was the awesome computer graphics I had seen on TV commercials, plus my love of science fiction. The visual effects turned out to be even better on big screen. Which was all that was good about the movie. The film is a great collection of stereotypes, gender and otherwise, presented through combination of plotlines, borrowed from other movies and TV shows. It's story is about a rescue team sent to a long lost spaceship that had reappeared after seven years. The team includes eight members, two of which are women, representing traditional female roles of a Mother, and a Sex Object. About the former,you can say right away that she'll be among the first to get killed, since she's old and not too attractive (the same as in older movies, the black guy would be the first to go). The other woman, a tall skinny blonde, survives through the end of the movie, probably because she rarely does anything but helplessly struggling with some electronic systems or being continuously rescued from some danger by one of the male crew members. The ship they are heading to, Event Horizon, was built to reach some unindetified location in another galaxy, by employing an artificially created black hole for faster-than-light-speed travel. Instead, it disappeared for seven years, and then showed up around Neptune, sending a weird message in Latin (which, by the way, none of Earth scientist were able to decipher, but the geek member of the rescue team translated right away). Since all the E.H. crew members seem to be dead, there is a question why aliens would communicate in Latin. However, as it turns out, the whole deal has nothing to do with aliens. The scientist who had designed the unfortunate ship (and later explains its principle of operation by poking holes in a porn magazine), is also present in the mission. He is haunted by a zombie-like image of his wife who keeps appearing first in his nightmares, and later physically, as a ghost (together with a bunch of other characters from crew members' dark past, which looked like direct plagiarism from Lem's _Solaris_). At first, one would guess that she was one of the vanished members of E.H. crew, whose remains are still either smeared about the ship's walls or floating around in pieces due to zero gravity. It would explain his desire to participate in the rescue mission, but that is not the case. In reality, she had killed herself many years ago, and therefore (guess what?) went to Hell. So the guy used the government-sponsored program of space exploration to build a ship that could reach "another dimension, dimension of pure evil", that is, Hell itself. So that he could use it to reunite with his wife. It is not clear, though, why he did not do it right away, instead of sending the original crew and most of the rescue one to their death (apart from the reason to let us watch them clawing out their eyes, which was the most recurring theme). By the middle of the movie, there is no more doubt that this is not science fiction, but horror, and not a very good one. Too much is too much, and at some point the endless images of screaming, bleeding all over guys, (looking just like the visions in _Millenium_) seem too fake to be scary. When, at the end, the already-dead evil scientist gets re-created by the ship, the Hellriser-like brownish cuts on his face look about as realistic as cheap plastic "scars" from a Halloween store. In other words, this movie sucks. The only good parts of it are special effects. The bottles, tools, watches, and other loose junk, slowly spinning and bouncing in the dark gloomy vacuum inside the ship, together with giant brown bubbles of liquid, jiggling, colliding, and breaking apart among them, it looked absolutely gorgeous. If that could be separated and viewed by itself, I would buy it on video. The other good thing was the sound, it can scare the Hell out of you even without looking at the screen. I think, the sound might get an Oscar next year. Of course, all this is just my opinion. I would love to know somebody else's. Thanks. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:59:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Oops, I meant _Event Horizon_. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:26:30 -0400 Reply-To: Nalo Hopkinson Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Went to see it for Lawrence Fishburn, but even that didn't help. Didn't follow the logic of "the ship brought something back, ergo the ship is now alive." Didn't understand why there would be a Christian Hell on the other side of the wormhole. If you were Hindu, would you experience something different? Was also a little creeped out by demonstrating wormhole travel by poking a pen through the nether regions of a picture of a naked woman. Was a little gratified to see one of the Black men Get the Girl (and did anyone else get a bi-queer vibe from him that disappeared as the movie progressed? Seemed like the filmmakers may have wanted to go there, but chickened out), but his clownish Step 'N Fetchit in Space routine grated at me. Though perhaps by then I was being just a *touch* hypersensitive from having too much of my intelligence insulted. There was a background scene that had Fishburn's character apparently smoking a joint, but by the time it got handed around to the foreground of the shot, it had become a cigarette. Another wimp-out on someone's part? So many logic holes that I can't begin to get into all of them here. Then it all fell apart and turned into a two-bit Hell Raiser meets Alien while nodding at 2001, and they all Blow Everything Up *Real* Good. Urp. -Pace- anyone who liked any of this summer's sf movies, this is all just my opinion. But in the past few months I've taken in Event Horizon, Contact, and Fifth Element, and they've all made me want to curl up with a good book. -nalo "You'll say reality is under no obligation to be interesting. To which I'd reply that reality may disregard the obligation but that we may not." -Jorge Luis Borges ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- I was on a business trip and decided to go to a late movie, and picked Event Horizon cuz I thought it would be SF. Uh-uh. When I got back to the motel at midnight, I thought the movie might give me bad dreams. Wrong again - instead, I dreamed a *positive* version of the film, where the ship went to another dimension and brought back a more intelligent, self-actualized crew. That's how bad the flick was - instead of a nightmare, I had a remake. (Or, there's proof that I could write a better movie in my sleep.) Anyway, did anyone notice that, among the crewmembers living out their personal hells: Sam Neill relived his wife's suicide, Larry Fishburne relived a leadership crisis decision where he had to let a man die, and Kathleen Quinlan imagined her young son in danger. All the way to Neptune, and still on the mommy track, eh? Not to mention the sexual harassment the other female crewmember had to endure in the early part of the movie. Not much of a future for women. BTW, Quinlan will be 43 years old on Nov. 19, according to my references .. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:20:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: <199708250316.XAA17252@mime3.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Kathleen Quinlan imagined her young son in danger. All the way to >Neptune, and still on the mommy track, eh? > I could understand Quinlan's character and what she does. I think it was overblown, though. >Not to mention the sexual harassment the other female crewmember had to >endure in the early part of the movie. Not much of a future for women. Indeed. Cheap and gratuitous is what that was. This isn't sf, but anybody see G.I. Jane yet and whaddathey think of it from a feminist perspective? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:15:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina, I didn't enjoy it, either. For one, there was Sam Neill walking around in shorts making like he's got about thirty pounds more muscle than he has. That or somebody jammed a stick up his butt. Also, whoever the black guy was who was the rescue specialist, he should have gotten a lot more screen time. This movie was a waste of some major talent, including Neill, Fishburne and most of the rest of the case. It's a proof positive that nice effects and talented actors don't make up for a lack of a good story. Technically, the movie's good, although I wasn't blown away by the computer graphics (I won't be until they are insidtinguishable from the real verson of whatever they're supposed to be. I suppose they went with them because they're probably cheaper than trying to make real stuff float) but virtually only technically. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:17:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Holly Yasui Subject: Re: finding out of print books (was: various catchup responses) In-Reply-To: <199708191857.OAA16302@mime3.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To Keri, and others who are looking for used, out-of-print & rare books ... Send me titles and the amount you are willing to pay, and I'll post your requests on the FSF book exchange page. Pls. use my private e-mail, hollyy@sprynet.com not the list, and put "book exchange" in the subject line. I'll be updating next weekend (Aug. 31). At 02:57 PM 8/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >-- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- >I can also recommend www.interloc.com and www.bibliofind.com, both very >large databases of used, out of print and rare books. Anyone can search >these for free, and order via email to the dealers. (And if you buy via >these sources, you'd be patronizing independent booksellers.) Also another Internet (used, rare, antiquarian) book-finding resource called Advanced Book exchange, at www.abebooks.com >(BTW, I ran a test search of bibliofind just now, and found all three of >Elgin's Native Tongue books listed, plus many other hard-to-find Elgin >titles such as Furthest, the Communipath books and Star-Anchored, Star- >Angered.) I just bought the three Native Tongue books from the Canadian bookseller listed in bibliofind, sorry! But I'll leave the request on the FSF book-exchange page. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:05:01 +1000 Reply-To: nchecr@unsw.EDU.AU Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bronwen Turner Organization: NCHECR Subject: Re: GI Jane (was Event Horizon) In-Reply-To: Sean, A *long* series of posts/debate about GI JANE (at least some from a feminist perspective) have been taking place on the listserv 'cinema-l'. You can access it via subscription but if you just want the GI JANE reviews, you can access it via Usenet in the 'listserv' section. Regards, Bronwen Sean asked... This isn't sf, but anybody see G.I. Jane yet and whaddathey think of it from a feminist perspective? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:26:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Me: > >Kathleen Quinlan imagined her young son in danger. All the way to > >Neptune, and still on the mommy track, eh? Sean: > I could understand Quinlan's character and what she does. I think it was > overblown, though. To be more explicit, I found it telling that the filmmakers didn't imagine Quinlan having a *professional* nightmare, as Fishburn did, rather than a *personal* one. You'd think a veteran space doctor would have enough professional nightmares to choose from. But really, this movie won't bear up under much analysis. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:17:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: <199708251526.LAA13592@mime4.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >-- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > >Me: >> >Kathleen Quinlan imagined her young son in danger. All the way to >> >Neptune, and still on the mommy track, eh? >Sean: >> I could understand Quinlan's character and what she does. I think it >was >> overblown, though. > >To be more explicit, I found it telling that the filmmakers didn't >imagine Quinlan having a *professional* nightmare, as Fishburn did, >rather than a *personal* one. You'd think a veteran space doctor would >have enough professional nightmares to choose from. > >But really, this movie won't bear up under much analysis. > I found it refreshing, looking back, that Quinlan's character had the nightmare she did because it's only natural that the thing a mother would be most concerned with would be her kids (especially considering what happened to her kids), regardless of her job. Fishburne's character wasn't a father, or, even if he was, he didn't have such a personal tragedy within his family as Quinlan's did. When people are in war or are hostages or even on a business trip, the thing they seem to miss most is not a friend but their family. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:06:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Event Horizon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:17 AM 8/25/97 -0500, Sean Johnston wrote: >I found it refreshing, looking back, that Quinlan's character had the >nightmare she did because it's only natural that the thing a mother would >be most concerned with would be her kids (especially considering what >happened to her kids), regardless of her job. I will restrain myself to one comment: is it also "only natural" that a father be most concerned with his kids, regardless of his job? -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Songs of Faith and Devotion, Depeche Mode "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970825150611.006956d8@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > At 11:17 AM 8/25/97 -0500, Sean Johnston wrote: > >I found it refreshing, looking back, that Quinlan's character had the > >nightmare she did because it's only natural that the thing a mother would > >be most concerned with would be her kids (especially considering what > >happened to her kids), regardless of her job. > > I will restrain myself to one comment: is it also "only natural" that a > father be most concerned with his kids, regardless of his job? > > -- Janice NH: Yes, it would have been better to say that a *parent* might be more concerned with his/her kid. But I read Sean as implying something of the sort when he continued the thought by musing about whether or not the captain was a father. It was Sean, wasn't it? -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:56:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > >> At 11:17 AM 8/25/97 -0500, Sean Johnston wrote: >> >I found it refreshing, looking back, that Quinlan's character had the >> >nightmare she did because it's only natural that the thing a mother would >> >be most concerned with would be her kids (especially considering what >> >happened to her kids), regardless of her job. >> >> I will restrain myself to one comment: is it also "only natural" that a >> father be most concerned with his kids, regardless of his job? >> >> -- Janice > >NH: Yes, it would have been better to say that a *parent* might be more >concerned with his/her kid. But I read Sean as implying something of the >sort when he continued the thought by musing about whether or not the >captain was a father. It was Sean, wasn't it? > > >-nalo Nalo, Yep. That was me. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:59:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970825150611.006956d8@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 11:17 AM 8/25/97 -0500, Sean Johnston wrote: >>I found it refreshing, looking back, that Quinlan's character had the >>nightmare she did because it's only natural that the thing a mother would >>be most concerned with would be her kids (especially considering what >>happened to her kids), regardless of her job. > >I will restrain myself to one comment: is it also "only natural" that a >father be most concerned with his kids, regardless of his job? > >-- Janice Janice, Yes. Or it should be. If it's not, I think the man needs to reprioritize. In case you're wondering, no I'm not a parent. I'm following the example set by my mom and dad and hoping I'll live up to it when and if I become a parent. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:23:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: film: The Planet of Junior Brown; if you're in Toronto... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This was originally a young adult sf novel by Virginia Hamilton. It's been made into a film by Toronto director Clement Virgo ("Rude"). I think it's slated to be a CBC tv film, but it's premiering at the Toronto International Film Festival in September. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > Didn't understand why there would be a Christian Hell on the > other side of the wormhole. If you were Hindu, would you experience > something different? Nalo, the whole point of the Christian Hell is that it's the one and only, and that anyone who disagrees (or disrespects the idea by commiting suicide) goes right there. Honestly, I think _Event Horizon_ is the most pathetic attempt to combine science fiction with religion I've seen since I stopped watching _The Burning Zone_. In the latter, the epizode that did it was the one where executed murderers would wake up in a dead city with a huge red object in the place of the sun hanging above. Then, a crowd of creatures in black capes would circle around him, obviously going to do something terrible. However, if the convict (still wearing his death row clothes) would drop down on his knees and say that he's sorry for what he had done, a lightning would strike, and a bearded guy in white clothes would come down from the clouds. He would tell the dark creatures: "Stop! This one is mine!", and they would kind of creep back. I apologize to those who might have liked the show. I personally found it extremely phony, from its attempt on political correctness (the main crew were from different ethnical backgrounds, but the leader that always knew better and treated them like kids, was a white male), to the paranoidness (I'm not sure if this is a legal English word) of the basic premise -- that there is a world conspiracy of physicians to eliminate the "most dangerous virus on the face of Earth -- the humans", so the crew could battle this conspiracy. But the religious stuff in _Burning Zone_ was the worst. I don't think that science fiction and religion should be combined in general. It always reminds me a comic booklet I saw once that some guy was giving around on campus. It was a graphic novel vividly describing how the end of the world was coming, and everything, from rock music to rollerblades was designed by Satan to corrupt as many souls of youth as possible, before his time was over. > Was also a little creeped out by demonstrating > wormhole travel by poking a pen through the nether regions of a picture of > a naked woman. I think it was intended to make the "scientific explanation" more entertaining, to keep the attention of the audience. > Was a little gratified to see one of the Black men Get the > Girl Yeah, but the girl was a total bimbo. It would be nice if she had a little more personality. However, I think the way he talked to her at the beginning was very much like sexual harassment. Even a bimbo deserves to be respected. "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:52:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> Was also a little creeped out by demonstrating >> wormhole travel by poking a pen through the nether regions of a picture of >> a naked woman. > >I think it was intended to make the "scientific explanation" more >entertaining, to keep the attention of the audience. Nalo, I'm not sure it was through her nether regions, but I'm not going to go back just to find out. I thought it was below the legs and through above the head. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. -sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:55:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Yep, her head and 'nether' just means 'lower.' -nalo On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > >> Was also a little creeped out by demonstrating > >> wormhole travel by poking a pen through the nether regions of a picture of > >> a naked woman. > > > >I think it was intended to make the "scientific explanation" more > >entertaining, to keep the attention of the audience. > > Nalo, > > I'm not sure it was through her nether regions, but I'm not going to go > back just to find out. I thought it was below the legs and through above > the head. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. > > -sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:18:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Yep, her head and 'nether' just means 'lower.' > >-nalo > Nalo, Think of the symbolism one could read into _that_. Of course, it might be more accurate had the picture been of a guy. ;-) -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:40:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Damn, I'm at work and didn't read Sean's comment carefully. If memory serves, it was one hole above her head and one through her thigh. But it seems we all generally found the same thing. For every faint nod to something positive we were able to find about the film, there were many mitigating yucks. -nalo On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: Yep, her head and 'nether' just means 'lower.' > > -nalo > > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > > > > >> Was also a little creeped out by demonstrating > > >> wormhole travel by poking a pen through the nether regions of a picture of > > >> a naked woman. > > > > > >I think it was intended to make the "scientific explanation" more > > >entertaining, to keep the attention of the audience. > > > > Nalo, > > > > I'm not sure it was through her nether regions, but I'm not going to go > > back just to find out. I thought it was below the legs and through above > > the head. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. > > > > -sean > > > > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the > small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) Comments: To: MARINA YERESHENKO In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > Yeah, but the girl was a total bimbo. It would be nice if she had > a little more personality. However, I think the way he talked > to her at the beginning was very much like sexual harassment. Even a > bimbo deserves to be respected. NH: True. I've given up trying to find any positives in this film. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizont - _bad_ movie (some major spoilers) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > >> On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >> >> Yeah, but the girl was a total bimbo. It would be nice if she had >> a little more personality. However, I think the way he talked >> to her at the beginning was very much like sexual harassment. Even a >> bimbo deserves to be respected. > >NH: True. I've given up trying to find any positives in this film. > >-nalo Well...hmmm...there's the guy who played the rescuer. He was pretty good. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:15:00 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: exit Subject: Re: Event Horizon >From: IN%"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: Event Horizon > >On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > >> At 11:17 AM 8/25/97 -0500, Sean Johnston wrote: >> >I found it refreshing, looking back, that Quinlan's character had the >> >nightmare she did because it's only natural that the thing a mother would >> >be most concerned with would be her kids (especially considering what >> >happened to her kids), regardless of her job. >> >> I will restrain myself to one comment: is it also "only natural" that a >> father be most concerned with his kids, regardless of his job? >> >> -- Janice > >NH: Yes, it would have been better to say that a *parent* might be more >concerned with his/her kid. But I read Sean as implying something of the >sort when he continued the thought by musing about whether or not the >captain was a father. It was Sean, wasn't it? > > >-nalo I haven't actually seen the movie and, since I don't like horror, I don't intend to, so keep that in mind. But my problem is not so much with a parent being more concerned with their kids than their job, but rather with the fact that yet again, the character chosen to be a parent is a woman. Why not give the captain kids and have the doctor not be a parent? Or better yet, make the captain a childless woman and the doctor a father? Gabby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:06:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <27082717154866@vms2.macc.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I haven't actually seen the movie and, since I don't like horror, I don't >intend to, so keep that in mind. But my problem is not so much with a parent >being more concerned with their kids than their job, but rather with the >fact that yet again, the character chosen to be a parent is a woman. Why >not give the captain kids and have the doctor not be a parent? Or better >yet, make the captain a childless woman and the doctor a father? > >Gabby Gabby, I think that's over-analyzing. One must consider that this isn't, apparently, the way the characters were written (the way suggested above). The question then becomes, as you ask, why were they written the way they were written? We could just as well ask why the hero in Eastwoods _The Unforgiven_ had to be a man. There were female gunfighters in the Old West, weren't there? We could ask the same of any number of stories, but it boils down, in this case, probably, to either the original author's inclination or perhaps a marketing decision. I think it's very likely that this was thought to be more palatable to mainstream audiences. Would the captain have behaved differently had he had kids? Who knows? We can only work with what's there, not what we would like to be there. As to the last suggestion, it's a good one, but it wouldn't have made that much of a difference. I'd still expect the parent to be most concerned about their kids. I'd suggest seeing the movie, though. It's not strictly horror, really. It's not strictly good, either, but it's be worth a look-see just to find out exactly what we're talking so much about and why at least this author is a little disappointed. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:08:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca DeMarco Subject: buying on the net Hi, I have never bought anything over the net. Is it safe? And I was also wondering if the addresses are available for the book sites mentioned. Thanks for your help, Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:42:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Event Horizon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- A little self-examination here. It's an interesting attitude - one in which I've just participated, on this thread - to criticize an individual movie for its individual attitudes, as though each movie should have some sort of universality. That is, if a Hemingway story offends me in some way, I don't write to the publishers asking them to revise it. I accept the break with my world view as an individual's point of view, and let it go at that. But a mainstream movie is somehow expected to please and entertain the family-values masses without offending anybody, even me. And meanwhile, it's become customary for such movies to safely slip in something for the rest of us - a gay character, a black character, a tough woman character, etc. - as long as these characters don't slow down the body count by revealing their inner feelings or something. So when a really mainstream (read: dumb) movie like Event Horizon (from the maker of "Mortal Kombat", btw) fails to throw some sociology my way, I get a little peeved. What's odd is not that the women characters in Event Horizon are so rote , but that I've somehow come to *expect* more interesting women characters in my science fiction movies - Sigourney Weaver, Jody Foster, Mira Sorvino, etc etc. So maybe we really have come a long way from the John Agar/Doug McClure days, and it's the *exceptions* that I notice. Comments? -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "Yet, throughout the book there exists the whole gamut of strange facts which we ourselves had been aware of for years, all carefully mustered to support a theory doomed by every process of logic to be forever incomprehensible." - Ray Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:59:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: buying on the net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > Hi, > I have never bought anything over the net. Is it safe? And I was also > wondering if the addresses are available for the book sites mentioned. > Thanks for your help, > Rebecca The used-book databases I mentioned are at www.bibliofind.com and www. interloc.com. At these sites you can email the booksellers or bookstores offering specific books, asking them to hold the books for you. If they confirm, you can then treat it like a regular old mail order and mail them a check, if you don't want to use a credit card on the Net (I don't ). The used-book world has been doing mail-order business for decades, if not centuries, and that trade is mostly honest and self-policing, in my experience. A tip: if the bookseller mentions ABAA membership, it's more likely you've found an established book person with a rep to protect. (There are a lot of honest booksellers who aren't in the ABAA, too. I'm not.) -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "Yet, throughout the book there exists the whole gamut of strange facts which we ourselves had been aware of for years, all carefully mustered to support a theory doomed by every process of logic to be forever incomprehensible." - Ray Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:02:05 -0500 Reply-To: anderbdm@win.bright.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Dawn L. Anderson" Subject: Re: buying on the net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rebecca DeMarco wrote: > > Hi, > I have never bought anything over the net. Is it safe? And I was also > wondering if the addresses are available for the book sites mentioned. > Thanks for your help, > Rebecca Hi Rebecca, I thought that I would stop lurking and answer your question. I have bought books through Science Fiction Marketplace newsgroup with out any problem at all. I would suggest that you not give out your Credit card number or checking account number unless you are absolutely sure that its safe to do so. Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:07:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <199708280442.AAA15852@mime3.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Event Horizon (from the maker of >"Mortal Kombat", btw) fails to throw some sociology my way, I get a >little peeved. That's illuminating. > Jody Foster, Actually, that's Jodie, not Jody. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:05:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: buying on the net In-Reply-To: <970828000708_513622878@emout07.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi, > I have never bought anything over the net. Is it safe? And I was also >wondering if the addresses are available for the book sites mentioned. > Thanks for your help, > Rebecca Rebecca, I wouldn't do it. Go to a store or order by mail, or even phone, instead. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:43:17 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: SF and Ecology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi everybody! I am from Turkey and yet new to this list -actually totally new to the list business-. For now, the whole idea and past discussions seems great, especially for a sociologist like me always having academic interest in SF. There is a paper in my head to write about ecologist utopias in science fiction and their cultural, ideological, or who knows, political-economic implications. I consider criticizing the "gaiaist" position in ecology which holds that the human species is a point -rather a big one- in the organic continuum of Nature, being no different than, say, an old oak tree or a pretty badger. I plan to analyse first the theoretical aspects of "Mother Earth" kind of ecological thinking, relating to the deconstructionist and metaphysical touches on the paradigm. Next, I think, I will use the SF texts to hold my point. Specifically, though I have made up a long list of ecological SF books and stories, I ask to those who are interested to help building on my list. And for my argument here. I believe what Theodor Sturgeon has told us is true: 95% of all SF is junk (or has he said "thrash"?). The majority of SF books, stories, films, computer games, journals, zines, etc. have successfully been integrated into the capitalist market for culture. The "cultural industry", now preaching that "the end of ideology", "the end of history" has come, and that there is no alternative to capitalist world-system, is making a perfect use of SF: Just think about the millions of imbecile "Trekkies", or those incurable Star Wars fans, buying, watching, CONSUMING every junk big firms throws at them. SF utopias, to be good fiction, to have literary value -though "literary value" is dangerous waters- must not be in _stasis_. They must not lose their dynamism. Take Orwell's _1984_: The time seems stopped at 1984, nothing moves, nothing changes. Even for a so-called "totalitarian" communist society, be it in 20th century or in 24th, stasis is improbable. Or take the wonderful _The Dispossessed_, Le Guin's masterpiece (by the way, is she still an anarchist, or an utopian socialist?): A most essential part of an organized society, social control, is mostly ignored. Why do not the masses revolt during the periods of hunger? What prevents them from crime? In Anarres, it seems that some mystified virtues of the human nature, like "freedom", "sharing" has been turned into a kind of religion. Anarres's fate seems to rot in stasis. Oops. I have written too much. I think that is enough for now. Thanks for reading. Emrah GOKER ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:42:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin" Subject: Re: Buying on the Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I buy books on the Net from amazon.com (the address is www.amazon.com) and am grateful to have the opportunity. I haven't yet bought from any other sites and can't say how they handle the information, but amazon.com has privacy measures in place, lots of warnings, instructions every step of the way, and so on. I think buying from amazon.com is no more dangerous than any other form of credit card buying -- if you're worried about that particular problem, the only safe way to proceed is not to have a credit card at all. And then of course you can transfer your anxiety and begin worrying about the ease with which criminals can access your bank account now that there are computer-read numbers on your checks. .... While I'm here, I'd like to mention something that people can do to support writers and books they'd like to save from oblivion, just in case not everyone is aware of it. Go to amazon.com. On the left you'll see a section that says you can search by author, title, or subject. Click on author or title and fill in the blank. When the item comes up on the screen, scroll to the end, where you'll see a spot that says something like "I've read this book and I'd like to review it." (Also one that says "I'm the author and I want to comment," which has been useful to me.) Follow the instructions.... You can review a book you love (or one you hate, of course) and send the review, all done very quickly and efficiently, and the review will then be available on line for others to read. I've been trying to get to a book or two a week and post reviews for them, in a support effort.... Those of you who are authors might be as astonished as I was at the publications that are listed under your name if you do a search for it; I found one book and one audio program, both allegedly by me, that I didn't know existed. The audio program (a Spanish translation) turned out to be real, but I'd never been told that the Spanish rights had been sold or the translation done, nor had I been paid for either one; the book really did *not* exist. I recommend checking. Same thing for the site at www.barnesandnoble.com .... I was amazed at what turned up under my name. My apologies if I'm preaching to the choir, teaching all my grandmothers to suck eggs, and similar truck; you never know. Suzette ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Teragram Subject: Re: buying on the net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi, > I have never bought anything over the net. Is it safe? Pretty much as safe as any other credit card transaction, I do believe. I haven't had any problems with it, at any rate. As long as the credit card numbers are encoded (every one I've checked has had an encoding program in place) and the dealer is reputable, I shouldn't think you'll have any problems. a delurking meg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elaine Kleiner Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: SF and Ecology Boy, you're going to be fun conversing with. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SF and Ecology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You might want to check out Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy, Joan Slonczewski's The Door into Ocean, and Kim Antieau's (sp?) The Gaia Websters Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: SF and Ecology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > I believe what Theodor Sturgeon has told us is true: 95% of all SF is junk > (or has he said "thrash"?). To be more specific, Gor novels are "junk," Pat Cadigan novels are "thrash." (I know it's bad netiquette to joke about typos, but I couldn't resist.) :-) Anyway, Sturgeon's Law is that "95 percent *everything* is crap." > The "cultural industry", now preaching that "the > end of ideology", "the end of history" has come, and that there is no > alternative to capitalist world-system, is making a perfect use of SF: Just > think about the millions of imbecile "Trekkies", or those incurable Star Wars > fans, buying, watching, CONSUMING every junk big firms throws at them. But look at the fantasy they're consuming in Trek: a future where capitalism is no longer the driving force, and the capitalists are typically the villains or clowns. (BTW, I think you've just called most of the people on this list "imbeciles.") As for suggestions, I've recently finished reading "Ammonite," which jostles up against some of the points brought up here. I've been pondering whether the all-woman Jeep functions as a sort of utopia, but there are nagging social disruptions and conflicts - it falls short of utopian standards. I don't think it was intended as such. I do think it presents a fantasy vision of people working in concert with nature, given the Jeep natives' ability to sense the planet's rhythms and, for example, plant gardens more appropriately through this sense. This sense engenders sympathy with nature: a woman who hunts for trophies is considered to have a deep personality flaw. Worth reading for your research, and for many other reasons. I hope someone more familiar with Le Guin and with feminist environmentalism can tackle the other questions... -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "Yet, throughout the book there exists the whole gamut of strange facts which we ourselves had been aware of for years, all carefully mustered to support a theory doomed by every process of logic to be forever incomprehensible." - Ray Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:25:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Event Horizon -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain So in Event Horizon the doctor character was a woman whose nightmare concerned her child, and the captain was a man whose nightmare concerned the death of a subordinate. What else do you really expect from a fairly big-budget mainstream SF movie? This sort of movie costs a great deal of money to make, and they are supposed to make lots MORE money. Conservative writing and casting protects the investment of the backers. Although I'm sure that all of us would rather see more feminist SF stories or novels made into films, it ain't gonna happen in any major way in the near future. On a related note, haven't you noticed that Laurence Fishburne, a wonderful actor, and Will Smith, who is a very appealing actor, only get to co-star in their SF films with white male leads? Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christopher Shaffer Subject: Re: SF and Ecology In-Reply-To: <199708281618.MAB16030@mime3.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > But look at the fantasy they're consuming in Trek: a future where > capitalism is no longer the driving force, and the capitalists are > typically the villains or clowns. (BTW, I think you've just called most > of the people on this list "imbeciles.") However, the world of Trek is one where the military-industrial complex controls just about everything. Yuck. ----- "If navigating the world wide web is computer literacy, then the meaning of literacy has really been debased." --Walter Miller Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:43:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: SF and Ecology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:43 PM 8/28/97 +0400, Emrah Goker wrote: > SF utopias, to be good fiction, to have literary value -though "literary >value" is dangerous waters- must not be in _stasis_. They must not lose >their dynamism. Take Orwell's _1984_: The time seems stopped at 1984, >nothing moves, nothing changes. Even for a so-called "totalitarian" >communist society, be it in 20th century or in 24th, stasis is improbable. _1984_ was a dystopia, not a utopia. The extreme rigidity of the future society was part of what made it so frightful. It's not likely that such a society could exist, but the book nevertheless points out possible end results of certain trends by exaggerating reality. >Or take the wonderful _The Dispossessed_, Le Guin's masterpiece (by the >way, is she still an anarchist, or an utopian socialist?): A most >essential part of an organized society, social control, is mostly ignored. I'm not sure what you mean by social control. If you mean coercion by means of a police force, no, Anarres does not have social control. But if you mean peer pressure and communal expectations, Anarres does have social control. I recall that children from very early on are taught to share and are criticised harshly for being materialistic. In all of her works, Le Guin emphasizes the power of other people's approval or disapproval to shape an individual's behavior. She takes pains to show the downside of this means of social control -- simple-minded conventionality and suppression of difference -- but I do think she prefers it to hierarchical styles of governing. >Why do not the masses revolt during the periods of hunger? What prevents >them from crime? In Anarres, it seems that some mystified virtues of the >human nature, like "freedom", "sharing" has been turned into a kind of >religion. Anarres's fate seems to rot in stasis. As far as revolt -- who would they revolt against? There is no government! Crime in general is a more vexing question. I can't remember if Le Guin really took the issue on, as did Marge Piercy in _Woman on the Edge of Time_ or Slonczewski in _A Door Into Ocean_. In both of those books, people who are violent or antisocial are encouraged to seek healing and if behavior does not improve are shunned. When it comes to murder, the authors diverge -- murderers on Shora are exiled to distant rafts, but in Mattapoisett they are simply killed. This approach takes for granted a society based on small villages where people's behavior can be fairly closely monitored by those around them -- for an industrialized economy based in cities, it obviously has its drawbacks. But for both of these authors, cities in themselves are an invitation to social collapse. Finally, I think one of the major concerns of _The Dispossessed_ is whether a society like the one on Anarres could survive, given human nature. There are signs of change (for the worse) in the book, so I did not perceive that the society was in stasis. It certainly is an "ambiguous utopia." -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Songs of Faith and Devotion, Depeche Mode "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:00:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: the question of aesthetics Comments: cc: nholder@shvn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This post is actually addressed to all of the novelists on the list (but not exclusive of others). I've been doing a good deal of reading this summer in preparation for my qualifying exams this coming Spring. In that rather heavy dose of lit. crit and theory, the following question popped into my mind: To what extent does the concerns for "literariness" (a loaded term, I realize) enter into the writings of science-fiction, fantasy, and horror writers (both men and women)? How much does politics alone enter into the act of writing such a novel? How does that connect up to the politics of feminist sf/fantasy/utopia? In other words, what would a feminist aesthetics, or poetics, of sf/fantasy/utopian fiction look like? I'm very interested in hearing people's responses to this set of questions. Erik Erik Tsao Graduate Student Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI "Penciled purples in the daylit dreams wore wool humid and apology bright letters in the doorway, arabic at the edges the colors of science turned jagged at his cease" --From "HPL" by Clark Coolidge ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:53:42 -0400 Reply-To: Nalo Hopkinson Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Event Horizon -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Debra Euler wrote: > What else do you really expect > from a fairly big-budget mainstream SF movie? This sort of movie and > Conservative writing and casting protects the > investment of the backers. NH: In this case though, I suspect that the conservatism backfired. I NH: In this case, I think that the producers' conservatism backfired. I could be wrong, but my sense is that even 'mainstream' audiences are not liking the film in droves. In response to the comment that feminist content won't be a part of mainstream filmmaking any time soon, I might expect no better of mainstream producers, but I can't expect them to change at all if I don't tell them what's interesting to me. Silence will change nothing. It's important to me to continue to critique the work I find problematic (and to respond positively to the work I appreciate, ie work that values diversity and complexity). By speaking up, I'm bringing a different point of view to the table, and I'm refusing to accept the assumption/judgement of "in the minority-therefore-less-valid." What I'm trying to articulate could probably be boiled down to, "I think we need to stand up and be counted." We might not be *listened* to, but they'll know that we're here. > it ain't gonna happen in any major way in the near future. NH: Until some of the producers start coming from our communities. There didn't used to be any feminist sf writing, either, until we started writing it. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:43:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Event Horizon -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >So in Event Horizon the doctor character was a woman whose nightmare >concerned her child, and the captain was a man whose nightmare >concerned the death of a subordinate. What else do you really expect >from a fairly big-budget mainstream SF movie? This sort of movie >costs a great deal of money to make, and they are supposed to make >lots MORE money. Conservative writing and casting protects the >investment of the backers. Although I'm sure that all of us would >rather see more feminist SF stories or novels made into films, it >ain't gonna happen in any major way in the near future. On a >related note, haven't you noticed that Laurence Fishburne, a >wonderful actor, and Will Smith, who is a very appealing actor, only >get to co-star in their SF films with white male leads? > >Debra Euler Debra, Come on, Will's done only two and Laurence has done one. They're both relatively new. You could say that Sam Neill only gets to star in SF films with black male leads (and remember that Will and Laurence were unquestionably leads or co-leads. One was not more important than the other). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:04:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <199708280442.AAA15852@mime3.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David, I think you are right. Movies _did_ get better lately, in terms of appearance of some powerful female characters. That's why this drawback is so annoying. Part of the reason I went to see the movie was because that I knew that two of the space commandos were women. Of course, I did not expect one thrown in for the sole purpose of decoration, and another to be a mother obviously punished for leaving her poor little kid alone and going to work. I am sure several years ago even this would have looked very progressive. But not now. I'll tell you something else, that you might consider funny. I did not grow up in America, and you may not know that in Europe and most of third world countries, _Star Wars_ (which is some kind of cult movie here) is not at all popular. I remember trying to watch it on video when I was 15 years old (1989). I think me and my cousins lasted about 15 minutes, after which we decided that this was the most boring science fiction movie we had ever seen, and turned it off. This Spring, me and my German friend Susanne decided to go and watch the new "enhanced" version of the _Empire Strikes Back_ at the theater. First of all, my friend fell asleep about 15 minutes to the end. Second, the only thing that left really big impression on us was how sexist was the film. Starting from the fact that Prinsess Leah always weared this long dress which must be hard to walk in, let along fight, while the two guys were bravely battling villains of all sort. When they got captured, no one tried to tie her hands like the other two, obviously, not considering her any threat. Every time operation of the ship became more difficult that usual, she would get scared and give her pilot seat to the ape guy. Finally, the way Harrison Ford's character treated her was totally outrageous. Especially the scene where he forcibly kisses her. At first, she is resisting, and then realizes that she actually "liked that". Of course, it did not look exactly the same as rape, but it gave pretty much the same message - that a woman never knows what she wants and using physical force is exactly what she's waiting for. Of course, this might be a culture difference, since I did not grow up being told that _Star Wars_ was the best movie ever made. But I really think that what seemed cool in seventies, sometimes does not look like that at all anymore. Be that special effects or interpersonal relations. This may also be the reason why I cannot watch old Star Trek, in spite of the fact that everybody says it is better that New Generation. This is the problem with _Event Horizon_, I think. Most of its ideas are way past their expiration date. Marina On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > > What's odd is not that the women characters in Event Horizon are so rote > , but that I've somehow come to *expect* more interesting women > characters in my science fiction movies - Sigourney Weaver, Jody Foster, > Mira Sorvino, etc etc. So maybe we really have come a long way from the > John Agar/Doug McClure days, and it's the *exceptions* that I notice. > Comments? > -- "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:13:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Event Horizon -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Debra, _Aliens_ was a big-budget SF movie, so is _Mimic_. Films with powerful women _can_ be marketable and bring lots of cash. One does not have to make sexist movies to make money, unless they want to. Marina On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Debra Euler wrote: > So in Event Horizon the doctor character was a woman whose nightmare > concerned her child, and the captain was a man whose nightmare > concerned the death of a subordinate. What else do you really expect > from a fairly big-budget mainstream SF movie? This sort of movie "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:26:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: SF and Ecology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > >> But look at the fantasy they're consuming in Trek: a future where >> capitalism is no longer the driving force, and the capitalists are >> typically the villains or clowns. (BTW, I think you've just called most >> of the people on this list "imbeciles.") > >However, the world of Trek is one where the military-industrial complex >controls just about everything. Yuck. > Huh? I think this is the perception because the Trek stories focus on the Trek characters, most of whom are in this military. However, it's clear that there are a lot of other leveld to the Trek universe than the Federation. Is Earth controlled by a Starfleet Admiral? How about Bajor? Cardassia is. Q'nos (Klingon home world is). Feren'g'nar (sp?) isn't? Rysa isn't? Even Voyager's Neelix's home world, to my knowledge, isn't. The point is that we're talking about billions of people populating a fictional universe only a small part of which we see. Nobody's really pressed into service, though it's a pretty high achievement to get into Starfleet. Then again, it's a still higher achievement to be the host of another being, as Dax is, and that's got nothing to do with the military. I could go on, but I'll stop now. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:36:41 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Re: Event Horizon (and Star Wars) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm another lurker coming out of cyberspace (actually Aotearoa New Zealand). I saw all the Star Wars films, and watched one of the revamped ones, and the element I came away with was the NUMBER of women. There seem to be about four in the whole movie universe - Skywalker's hapless aunt, Leia, the rebel general, and I think there was a one-second glimpse of some (possibly female) alien singers in the spaceport bar scene. No other women pilots for all that death star canyon swooping, no women techs, no women jedi knights. I assume they reproduced in tanks. There are several movies I can think of that put a neo-feminist like Leia in a world outrageously more male-dominated than it needs to be, and act like the world can function with that imbalance. When I mention that to non-SF, non-feminist Star Wars fans, they have never noticed it. I also heartily agree with Marina about the dynamics between Leia and the flyboy, and I don't plan to go see Event Horizon after reading this thread. Jenny R > This Spring, me and my German friend Susanne decided to go and watch the > new "enhanced" version of the _Empire Strikes Back_ at the theater. First > of all, my friend fell asleep about 15 minutes to the end. Second, the > only thing that left really big impression on us was how sexist was the > film. Starting from the fact that Prinsess Leah always weared this long > dress which must be hard to walk in, let along fight, while the two guys > were bravely battling villains of all sort. When they got captured, no > one tried to tie her hands like the other two, obviously, not considering > her any threat. Every time operation of the ship became more difficult > that usual, she would get scared and give her pilot seat to the ape guy. > Finally, the way Harrison Ford's character treated her was totally > outrageous. Especially the scene where he forcibly kisses her. At first, > she is resisting, and then realizes that she actually "liked that". Of > course, it did not look exactly the same as rape, but it gave pretty much > the same message - that a woman never knows what she wants and using > physical force is exactly what she's waiting for. > > Of course, this might be a culture difference, since I did not grow up > being told that _Star Wars_ was the best movie ever made. But I really > think that what seemed cool in seventies, sometimes does not look like > that at all anymore. Be that special effects or interpersonal relations. > This may also be the reason why I cannot watch old Star Trek, in spite of > the fact that everybody says it is better that New Generation. > > This is the problem with _Event Horizon_, I think. Most of its ideas > are way past their expiration date. > > Marina > > > On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON > wrote: > > > > > What's odd is not that the women characters in Event Horizon are so rote > > , but that I've somehow come to *expect* more interesting women > > characters in my science fiction movies - Sigourney Weaver, Jody Foster, > > Mira Sorvino, etc etc. So maybe we really have come a long way from the > > John Agar/Doug McClure days, and it's the *exceptions* that I notice. > > Comments? > > -- > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > happens to be selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:25:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Expendable In-Reply-To: <199708290341.PAA02439@iconz.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anyone else read Expendable by James Alan Gardner? Light reading, but enjoyable. The basic premise is that humanity has become part of the League of Peoples and life is very good for most people. However, there is still need for a group of people who do the dirty and dangerous work within society. That's where the Expendable Crew Membes like out protagonist Festina Ramos come in. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org jillmari@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ferndock2 "Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."