"FEMINISTSF LOG9709C" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:30:06 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: 'Descent of woman': was Male/Female strength (back on topic) << Anyone ever read Elaine Morgan's nf book _Descent of Woman?_ It talks about some of the structural changes that wrought homo sapiens, from a feminist perspective. It's fascinating. >> >Yes--loved it!! Her ideas about humans spending some time evolving on >the shores of Africa (and hence no fossils of the time period, as they'd all >be underwater) were extremely interesting. Now *there's* an interesting >time period for a novel... >Nicole One taken up by Peter Dickinson in a YA novel 'A Bone from a Dry Sea', which switches between 'Vinny... visiting the site where her father is one of a team searching for the fossil remains of our ancestors' and 'Li' who lives 'between the parching land and the mothering sea [with]... the tribe, our ancestors'. Perhaps not my absolute favourite of Dickinson's works, but like anything he writes, definitely well worth reading (and, like several other YA writers, his work is of a sophistication which puts many so-called 'adult' writers to shame). Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:57:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Comic book heroes (Was height and gender bodies - Xena) In-Reply-To: <341CA0DB.735A@Best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I really like Rogue. I have the action figure (I have a collection >of women action figures from Star Trek, The X-men, and a couple >miscellaneous heroes. . .). I used to keep her at my desk at work >until someone told me she was valuable enough for someone to take. > >As a borrowed alter-ego, she is great. Untouchable (which is tragic >and life-saving in different situations), practically indestructable. >Really hard to sneak up on. . . A great character for when I am >feeling a bit fragile. > >She's earthy, complex, smart and talks like my Great-Aunt Cricket. >I wish she would be featured more in the cartoon and various comic book >story lines. > >Often, she is drawn with even bigger boobs than Barbie, which is not >satisfactory. Seems that some think she has to balance her strength >with "femininity." I'd worry that breasts of such gigantic proportion >would make it difficult TO balance, much less fly. Good thing she's >stronger than anyone else on the planet. . . > >Lindy >-- >If you can't say anything nice. . . come right over here and sit by me! > >http://www.best.com/~laorka Lindy, Spoken like a true X-Men fan. They are pretty cool, aren't they? And I love what they stand for, that being helping out people who need your help even if those people hate you for who you are. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Have Spacesuit Will Travel (NOT) In-Reply-To: <199709131453.AAA21530@banda.ntu.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nimal Jayawardhana replied: >>I can bet anything this has nothing to do with the spacesuit sizes. The >>reason is much more simple -- "Fixing the space station that men had >>trouble with is not a job for a woman." Russia is the most sexist country >>in Europe, in case you did not know. >>Marina > >It's really rather disturbing considering that theoretically the Soviet >Union was a very egalitarian place (highest proportion of female doctors and >Engineers in the world etctera) on earth, but stats can be deceiving. It's less surprising if you also know that jobs like doctor which had a lot fo women were also low-paid and low status . . . Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Average heights of women and men (slightly off-topic) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nalo Hopkinson replied: >NH: Makes sense to me. Some women's self defense classes teach that a >woman can increase her physical advantage in a fight by using her legs >rather than relying on her arms, i.e. kicking, stomping (one thing those >spike heels are useful for!). >On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: >> So, if women are naturally more given to lower-body strength, shouldn't >> fantasy warrior women in female dominated worlds use a different style >> of fighting? That is, emphasizing the legs rather than the arms. This >> would entail the invention of interesting knee- and foot-mounted weapons >> , leaving the arms free for shielding - but also ending the cliche of >> the sword-wielding amazon. To wield a sword against an armored foe is an >> upper-body-strength thing, methinks. Just a thought. I've heard self-defense talks which urged falling on your back and kicking the attacker away. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:31:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Average heights of women and men (slightly off-topic) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:03 AM 9/15/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: >I've heard self-defense talks which urged falling on your back and kicking >the attacker away. > > *dubious look* As a rape victim, I hardly think this sounds like a brilliant idea, no matter the putative strength of my legs... Heather (Tae kwon do, 80% kicks, 20% fists) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:13:38 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Another new voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msA82F6CAFA95EF8AFF0E15AD2" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msA82F6CAFA95EF8AFF0E15AD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, time to stop lurking and say hello. First I have to say I'm thrilled to find this list. In the dozen or so years I've been using the Internet this is what I've been waiting for. I've been reading science fiction since a high-school instructor had me read the Illustrated Man and Earth Abides and I was hooked. Of course, before that was the Black Cauldron, that Lloyd Alexander series. Then in the late 80's I was a member of a collective running a women's bookstore and discovered the world of feminist science fiction and fantasy and haven't read many male authors since. Just making up for lost time! I really enjoyed Susanna Sturgis' columns in the Feminist Bookstore News, which I miss now that I'm not working at the bookstore anymore. Which reminds me, in the archives there was a brief discussion about magic realism. Sturgis edited a volume of stories, can't remember the title, but it included a story by Kathleen(?) Alcala, I think that was her name. I read a book of her stories and liked them a lot. My day job is software development and marketing, which I like because it makes me feel like I'm part of that edge turning science fiction into reality. It also means I don't use the computer that much when I'm not working (except for this list!) I don't have any sort of academic background, so I'm a little intimidated by some of your discussion, although I'm learning from it. I do write some reviews (pretty much academic-buzzword-free) for a friend that has a web page: http://www.wenet.net/~kwriter/Public/SFReview/Index.htm I'm a big fan of Melissa Scott, but I also wrote about Remnant Population, Gaia's Toys, the Porcelain Dove, and I can't remember what else. Right now I'm reading Jones' The White Queen which is delightfully wierd and getting wierder. I've also recently read Pat Murphy's Nadya and would be interested to hear what others thought of it. I just loved Murphy's earlier works and was disappointed in this one. Also recently read Butler's Blood Child which I recommend to anyone interested in her, as it includes her comments about various stories plus some essays that closely reflected what she said the time I saw her speak. Finally, on Xena: I'm a big fan and only slightly embarrassed about it. I explain it by saying if there had been stories like that when I was growing up I wouldn't have to watch it now. That's enough going on and on about me for now. Oh, one more thing, I have to say hello to Eleanor Arnason and Nicola Griffith, and thank you for your fabulous books, I read any of them I find, then eagerly wait for the next. Jennifer -- Jennifer Krauel Director of Product Marketing jkrauel@actioneer.com 415.536.0715 fax 415.882.4372 http://www.actioneer.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ++ Actioneering: the art and science of getting it done ++ --------------msA82F6CAFA95EF8AFF0E15AD2 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQPAYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQLTCCECkCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC Dqowggn0MIIJXaADAgECAhBchDAU/68lDEeyiUE2wqt5MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMGIxETAP BgNVBAcTCEludGVybmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVy aVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjAeFw05NzA2MTYwMDAw MDBaFw05NzEyMTYyMzU5NTlaMIIBEjERMA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZl cmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytWZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVh 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My message returned due to >550 ... Host unknown >(Name server: piglet.cc.uic.edu.: host not found) Since I rarely have a simple reply bounce, I would like to know how to address this list correctly. Can anyone help? Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Women & sports In-Reply-To: <970912185820_1887581806@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII About football,( this is definitely off-subject ) a friend of mine thinks of making a T-shirt with a picture of a football players all over each other (is it called tackling?), and words: "There is always an excuse to intimately touch another man's body." She thinks of wearing it to the next OU football game, but afraid that they'll beat her up. Marina On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Nicole Youngman wrote: > << > I read, the other week, an article in our local "Outreach" magazine, which > really pissed me off, about the recently started female basketball > league. >> > > There's a great book out by Mariah Burton Nelson called _The Stronger Women > Get, the More Men Love Football_ that you might enjoy. > Off topic, but oh well...;-) > > Nicole > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Have Spacesuit Will Travel (NOT) In-Reply-To: <199709131453.AAA21530@banda.ntu.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII About spacesuits and sexism in Russia. It's true that we had more female doctors than male ones since 1930's. As well as teacher or accountant, physician was considered a "feminine" profession. Kind of like Elementary Education. At the same time, it could be part of the reason why an emergency-room physician was making less money than an ambulance car driver (who were mostly men). Also, women usually worked on road construction and rail-road repair, while all management-level positions, especially government ones, were male-only. I did not know the meaning of the word "housewife" till I was about 15, because I never saw a non-working woman. And as long as I remember myself, women around me were complaining that they would rather stay home (in USSR, it was illegal not to work). This could be part of the reason, why now, in Russia women are very much anti-feminist. For them, "equality" means working on the railroad for nothing, and then come home, do all the housework, cook and serve a dinner for kids and the husband who sits in front of the TV, complaining that the meal is not ready, and he, the breadwinner, is hungry. (Equal pay was a law, but "male" jobs simply paid a lot better, whether it was a government official or a truck driver, than "female" - a doctor or an accontant, so the man was still the "breadwinner"). This is why, for most of Russian women, "gender equality" means degrading exploitation (harder work for less pay plus humiliation), and men see it as another ridiculous Communist idea (together with international brotherhood of working class, etc). And there is no way they would let a woman to repair the space station, whether she were "too tiny" or not. Marina This is part of the reason On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Nimal Jayawardhana wrote: > >I can bet anything this has nothing to do with the spacesuit sizes. The > >reason is much more simple -- "Fixing the space station that men had > >trouble with is not a job for a woman." Russia is the most sexist country > >in Europe, in case you did not know. If Wendy Lawrence was the "right size", > >they would say they had "limited bathroom facilities for females due to > >emergency conditions on the station", or something else. There is no way > >they would let a girl to tamper with high technology equipment, it's not > >a sewing machine or something. Besides, it would not be gentlemen-like to > >send the poor little girl for such a dangerous task. Geez, I haven't > >been there for three years and this still makes me mad. > > > >Marina > > It's really rather disturbing considering that theoretically the Soviet > Union was a very egalitarian place (highest proportion of female doctors and > Engineers in the world etctera) on earth, but stats can be deceiving. > > |\| | |\/| ~8>B > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Have Spacesuit Will Travel (NOT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970915085757.006c4274@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > >It's really rather disturbing considering that theoretically the Soviet > >Union was a very egalitarian place (highest proportion of female doctors and > >Engineers in the world etctera) on earth, but stats can be deceiving. > > It's less surprising if you also know that jobs like doctor which had a lot > fo women were also low-paid and low status . . . > > Neil Rest > I forgot about engineers, than was an even more despised profession. For both men and women, it was something impossible to make the ends meet with, unless one had some other semi-illegal income, like fixing cars or TV's, which also was a male-only occupation. (My mother recently was shocked that I, a girl, can even _drive_ a car on my own, no talking about fixing one. And my Mom is pretty much a feminist by that society's standards.) Guess who was the _most_ priviledged profession (other than party leaders)? Sales clerks in grocery and other stores. They had direct access to the distribution of everything from soap to cars, and that made them very important people. Actually, there were a a lot of women among those. So there was at least one women's profession that implied some money and power (and everyone hated them). Now when I write this, it seems that I lived in some kind of science fiction society... Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:09:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Average heights of women and men (slightly off-topic) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970915145524.30afbfbe@kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Heather MacLean wrote: > At 09:03 AM 9/15/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: > > >I've heard self-defense talks which urged falling on your back and kicking > >the attacker away. > > > > > > *dubious look* As a rape victim, I hardly think this sounds like a > brilliant idea, no matter the putative strength of my legs... > > Heather > (Tae kwon do, 80% kicks, 20% fists) I got in trouble for saying something like this once, but I believe that the best self-defense are one's brain and one's gun. At least, neither is gender- or fitness-dependent. If you don't believe me, try living in a war zone city with no government and full of crazy drugged armed militia men. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:11:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Average heights of women and men (slightly off-topic) >I got in trouble for saying something like this once, but I believe that >the best self-defense are one's brain and one's gun. At least, neither is >gender- or fitness-dependent. If you don't believe me, try living in a >war zone city with no government and full of crazy drugged armed militia men. > >Marina For a minute there I thought you were from D.C. -- Anne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:39:29 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: <9709120722.AA05826@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Eleanor Arnason wrote: > I suspect that male dominance originated early in human history and derives > from the kind of size dominance hierarchies that seem typical of many > mammalian societies. I also suspect that male dominance now is cultural. > > Anyway, I think control of reproduction is THE big issue between men and > women; and I wanted to create a society where women had absolute say in this > area. But why did they have absolute say? Because -- like female hyenas -- > they were larger than the males. I am afraid your first suspection will not be justified --though there may be some clues-- until _homo sapiens sapiens_ develops the Time Machine (GOD SAVE SF CLICHES) or some really revolutionary methods are found in anthropology. Yet, shamefully, there are (at least here in Turkey) Muslim sects justifying the (especially physical) dominance of women by referring to the so-called fact that Allah had created them small, weak, and less intelligent, so they need protection. Using physical differences (e.g. size) for domination of women is, unfortunately, not buried deep in the early history of the humankind. Worse still, as you mentioned, domination of women is structured today in culture, in the matrix of most of the relations between man and woman, man and man, even woman and woman. When, in history, men began to use natural differences to construct cultural practices of domination? This is a debated issue. Not only biological reproduction, but reproduction of relations of dominance, and of production is also a great problem. If the market forces, the language, the mother's taking care of her child is produced and reproduced in a sexist way, we face a problem with deeper roots. Is there a "logic of domination" behind all these? For Karen J. Warren, there is: (B1) Women are identified with nature and the realm of the physical; men are identified with the "human" and the realm of the mental. (B2) Whatever is identified with nature and the realm of the physical is inferior to ("below") whatever is identified with the "human" and the realm of the mental, (B3) Thus, women are inferior to men. (B4) For any X and Y, if X is superior to Y, then X is justified in subordinating Y. (B5) Men are justified in subordinating women. (Taken from Warren (1990), "The power and promise of ecological feminism," _Environmental Ethics_ 12, 2: 125-46.) However, which has been deterministic in the current domination of women, nature or culture? Or was there a dialectical relationship? At this point, fictive works, particularly science fiction presents the social critic valuable experiences: Genderless societies, societies where homosexuality is the norm, planets where women dominate at all levels, or where all men are dead (I recall one of Tiptree's stories: "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?")... If SF can be emancipated from its "escapist", "childish", "thrash" labels (and I believe this has been achieved in the West to a great extent), more attention will be given to what is happening there. However, glorifying mystical experiences of femininity (in SF or in social-scientific literature) is also dangerous waters. A feminist school of thought must critically analyze sex, gender, and patriarchy; both masculinity _and_ femininity must be critically approached. OK, it is fantastic to read about a planet of androgyne humanoids (which is SF), or it is insight-giving to learn how "I am protecting the forest" becomes "I am part of the rain forest protecting myself. I am part of the rain forest recently emerged into thinking," which consequently leads us to the worship of Gaia the Goddess (which is social science)... However, metaphysics (for me) cannot construct an agenda of real life, of political struggle. We should not exaggerate what SF gives us. I have written an awfully long post... It is time I left... BYE! EMRAH PS: The above statement about rain forests is taken from Plumwood, V. (1991) "Nature, self, and gender: feminism, environmental philosophy, and the critique of rationalism," _Hypatia_ 6, 1: 3-27. PPS: I have access to Internet only from the university, so I have not yet checked out the... oh, 75 messages arrived from FEMINISTSF. Sorry if this argument seems pointless. PPPS: This week my courses, registration, and other "red tape" stuff begins, I will not be able to answer anybody for a week. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:28:06 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: Are we talking about Feminist SF? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I feel that this whole discussion about sports, muscles, power, comic heroes, is going a bit (to be modest) far away from our main topic. Not that I am against deconstructing male stereotypes of males and females, especially about "Who can play such and such game better". Let's get back to the topic, or anyway, to the whereabouts of it. Have a wonderful week, every one! EMRAH (He who won't be around until next week) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:14:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Tananarive Due In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tananarive Due is one of the few African-American writers doing fantasy and horror. Her first novel, The Between, received excellent reviews. Just out is her second novel, My Soul to Keep, from HarperCollins (and HarperCollins Canada Ltd.), which is also receiving lots of positive press in the publishing industry. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:36:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Crossing Press, et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Mention of Susanna Sturgis on this list reminded me that I have a book edited by her, "The Women Who Walk Through Fire," on my stack of to-read books here. It sparked my curiosity - I understand Crossing Press regularly has several F/SF titles in its catalogue. Interesting that this specialty press should publish genre material - it made me wonder about the intended audience, and the interaction (if any) between this small press and the bigger world of SF. Does this book's subtitle, "Women's Fantasy & SF" signify something about the material other than the fact that it's written by women (as "women's music" seems to)? Are books by Crossing Press and others (Naiad ?) getting respect in the SF field? I'm also wondering how these small feminist presses are faring in the current publishing upheavals, if anybody has any inside info. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "Yet, throughout the book there exists the whole gamut of strange facts which we ourselves had been aware of for years, all carefully mustered to support a theory doomed by every process of logic to be forever incomprehensible." - Ray Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:36:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Emrah said: > I feel that this whole discussion about sports, muscles, power, comic heroes, > is going a bit (to be modest) far away from our main topic. Aren't comic books a legit topic? Wonder Woman, at least? Wonder Woman was conceived as a sort of feminist comic book, way back in the '40s, a real standout in that era. (If anybody has a collection of these early stories, I'd like to trade for it.) I was wondering how comics fans on the list felt about the treatments of the character since that time, particularly the current series which I believe is being done by John Byrne. Worth checking out? -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "Yet, throughout the book there exists the whole gamut of strange facts which we ourselves had been aware of for years, all carefully mustered to support a theory doomed by every process of logic to be forever incomprehensible." - Ray Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:53:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Judith Merril Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I now repeat the message that bounced. I too loved and admired Judy. At 01:48 9/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 01:42 AM 9/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >>I'm sorry to hear of the passing of Ms. Merril. And I mean to sound >>ignorant, but could someone please give me some of the titles of the >>books that she has written? I don't remember having read her and I >>would like to remedy that as soon as I can. Thank you in advance to >>anyone that can help me. > >Judith published very little fiction after 1960. Her story "That Only a >Mother" is quite famous. Her short fiction has been collected several times, >notably in a 1976 Warner "The Best of Judith Merril" and a 1985 "Judith >Merril Omnibus". I believe this is her best work. > >Her first novel, "Shadow on the Hearth" (1950), is a remarkable story of >nuclear holocaust, told from the point of view of a housewife. --snip-- Judy once explained to me that she was forced by her hardcover publisher to change the ending of _Shadow on the Hearth_. She had killed off the husband virtually within sight of his home (by the self-appointed vigilante group that had menaced the wife). Publisher found this too grim. Judy said, much more realistic -- and set up by the narrative. Publisher won. The book did come out with her ending (I believe in Britain) but by the time we talked together (ca. 1986), she didn't have a copy herself, not even for her Spaced Out library. I hope she found one before she left us. Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:45:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Crossing Press, et al In-Reply-To: <199709161436.KAA92222@mime2.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > Mention of Susanna Sturgis on this list reminded me that I have a book > edited by her, "The Women Who Walk Through Fire," on my stack of to-read > books here. It sparked my curiosity - I understand Crossing Press > regularly has several F/SF titles in its catalogue. Interesting that > this specialty press should publish genre material - it made me wonder > about the intended audience, and the interaction (if any) between this > small press and the bigger world of SF. > > Does this book's subtitle, "Women's Fantasy & SF" signify something > about the material other than the fact that it's written by women (as > "women's music" seems to)? Are books by Crossing Press and others (Naiad > ?) getting respect in the SF field? I'm also wondering how these small > feminist presses are faring in the current publishing upheavals, if > anybody has any inside info. > -- Sturgis has done a series of Women's SF and fantasy anthologies for Crossing Press, all of them highly regarded. Largely on the strength of those anthologies, plus some book reviewing (primarily, I think, for the Lamda Book Report), Sturgis was co-guest of honor at the last WisCon with Melissa Scott. The question of the "respect" science fiction published by small women's presses is getting is a complex one. In general it tends to be ignored by the major award nominators and genre review sources, although such books do, interestingly enough, get reviewed in Publishers Weekly with some regularity. Perhaps the major in-genre influence serving to bring such works to wider public attention is the Tiptree Award and its wonderful annotated list of honor books. On the other hand, not all of the sf published by the women's presses deserves serious attention. A certain percentage of it, as with a certain percentage of the sf put out by gay publishing houses, is lightweight, often rather sexy, froth. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:15:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Crossing Press, et al In-Reply-To: <199709161436.KAA92222@mime2.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:36 AM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >-- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > > >Does this book's subtitle, "Women's Fantasy & SF" signify something >about the material other than the fact that it's written by women (as >"women's music" seems to)? Are books by Crossing Press and others (Naiad >?) getting respect in the SF field? I'm also wondering how these small >feminist presses are faring in the current publishing upheavals, if >anybody has any inside info. >-- >David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com > I am new to the list, as of last week, and have been waiting for a break on the size thread to introduce myself. perhaps the most important thing to know is that my mail reader does not do spell check, so I apologize for my awful typing. I'm Rudy Leon, and I am a grad student in religion, American religion and New Religious Movements, at Syracuse U., and this semester I am teaching a course on Religion in Feminist Utopian Fantasy Novels. We just finished Herland, and this next couple of weeks are doing Wanderground (Gearhart) and Suzie Charnas' Walk to the End of the World and Motherlines. We'll also be reading Dispossessed; Woman on the Edge of Time; Marraiges Between Zones 3, 4, 5; Fifth Sacred Thing; Handmaid's Tale; and Gate to Women's Country. I am actually really curious if this seems like a cliched list to people 'in the know'. The students also have to do a comparative study with an 'outside' book, most likely one of the ones I ended up deciding not to use for the class, or any sugegestions that I hear here. To respond to David's questions, in doing research for this class I found a good many articles in Extrapolation and SFS on Women's SF, but in books these authors were barely and rarely mentioned. Except, of course, in books focusing on Feminist SF. So my guess is that the SF 'experts' do not concede that this is either an important or genuine movement. However, I am also on the Utopia-L listserv, and the discussion there has led me to believe even more strongly that this genre is really where the cutting edge is--the questions being debated there seem old and tired and one sided, lacking the complexity and texture shown in some of these books. I think that to the degree that feminism has to engage humanism it is changing the way people look at the future and its possibilities, and it may idealistic of me, but isn't that what SF is about? And a really good SF story gives a through and convincing look at all the details which hold life together? Traditional SF has largely been responding to LeGuin (and others) when it even looks at social structure and gender roles... I'll stop there, since I'm still trying to get a feel for the list (and the genre), but I ma really looking forward to this list... peace Rudy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:01:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Eleanor Arnason Subject: Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF? I think Emrah may well be right. The discussion HAS drifted just a teeny bit from a feminist critique of SF. All best, Eleanor Arnason ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:58:53 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > > Aren't comic books a legit topic? Wonder Woman, at least? Wonder Woman > was conceived as a sort of feminist comic book, way back in the '40s, a > real standout in that era. (If anybody has a collection of these early > stories, I'd like to trade for it.) I was wondering how comics fans on > the list felt about the treatments of the character since that time, > particularly the current series which I believe is being done by John > Byrne. Worth checking out? As a long time Wonder Woman reader, I can respond to this question. WW has been through good times and bad in her various incarnations. Nothing recent has been quite as bad as when they depowered her back in the late '60s or early '70s and turned her into a martial arts, "Kung Fu" type crimefighter. I think the best she's been in recent years was when George Perez started his run on the series and they brought her back as if she were a completely new character, coming from Paradise Island to man's world for the first time. (This was in the early to mid '80s, as I recall. There was quite a trend for old comic characters to be brought in again as new and freshened up.) The series got bad again a few years ago (IMHO) when they seemed to treat her as just eye candy for adolescent males and made her breasts larger than her storylines. John Byrne has been redeeming the character since then, but it's not as good as it was under Perez. One really positive thing they've done with the new Wonder Woman is give her normal looking teenage girls as friends for her to relate to and be a role model to. They're very believable as characters and I hope that young girls will find this comic and enjoy it. Berni ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:09:57 +0100 Reply-To: bernip@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Berni Phillips Organization: The Huntingdon Library Subject: Re: Crossing Press, et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rudy Leon wrote: > I'm Rudy Leon, and I am a grad student in religion, > American religion and New Religious Movements, at Syracuse U., and this > semester I am teaching a course on Religion in Feminist Utopian Fantasy > Novels. We just finished Herland, and this next couple of weeks are doing > Wanderground (Gearhart) and Suzie Charnas' Walk to the End of the World and > Motherlines. We'll also be reading Dispossessed; Woman on the Edge of > Time; Marraiges Between Zones 3, 4, 5; Fifth Sacred Thing; Handmaid's Tale; > and Gate to Women's Country. I am actually really curious if this seems > like a cliched list to people 'in the know'. The students also have to do > a comparative study with an 'outside' book, most likely one of the ones I > ended up deciding not to use for the class, or any sugegestions that I hear > here. Unless your students are really devoted to the genre, I doubt very much if they will have read many or even a few of these. This looks like a good selection for your topic, in my opinion. Welcome. I'd be curious to hear periodically how your students respond to the various books. Berni ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:56:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: patricia johnston Subject: Best of Soviet SF (series) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All, Have just picked up "Prisoners of Power" by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky. Will read it soon. Has anyone read any of the other books in the series? They are,,,,,World Soul, Definitely Maybe, Half a Life, Noon: 22nd Century, and The Uncertainty Principle. I have been collecting many books that were mentioned on this list. In the last few months I have collected a total of 42 books,, (a lot for me),,,have not read all of them yet. My question is, does someone know of a good shareware program for cataloging my books? Heard of a program that starts with Micro? I would like a database that has the feature of searching by author or by title, and a small description of the book. (Hope this request is not off subject for the list) Thanks Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:59:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Eleanor Arnason wrote: >I suspect that male dominance originated early in human history and >derives from the kind of size dominance hierarchies that seem typical of >many mammalian societies. I also suspect that male dominance now is >cultural. > >Anyway, I think control of reproduction is THE big issue between men >and women; and I wanted to create a society where women had >absolute say in this area. But why did they have absolute say? Because >-- like female hyenas -- they were larger than the males. At 10:39 AM 9/16/97 +0400, Emrah Goker wrote: >I am afraid your first suspection will not be justified --though there may >be some clues-- until _homo sapiens sapiens_ develops the Time Machine >(GOD SAVE SF CLICHES) or some really revolutionary methods are found >in anthropology. Yet, shamefully, there are (at least here in Turkey) Muslim >sects justifying the (especially physical) dominance of women by referring >to the so-called fact that Allah had created them small, weak, and less >intelligent, so they need protection. Using physical differences (e.g. size) >for domination of women is, unfortunately, not buried deep in the early >history of the humankind. I also have reservations about the "size is dominance" theory when applied to humans. As far as I know, there is no evidence at all for it, and some against it. In my Sex Roles in Comparative Perspective class in college we learned that -- taking yet another species as an example -- in chimpanzee society a male's status is closely linked to only two things: 1. age and 2. his mother's status. Not size. What this means in relation to humans is a matter of debate. When I look at the world around me I see that a person's parentage is the most telling influence on future economic and personal success. And, as people age, they generally amass more contacts and economic resources. (Much more the case for people who already have the advantage of high-status parentage.) Then there is sex -- most men, regardless of parentage, will benefit from advantages in the workplace that women don't enjoy. (Do women still make $.65 to a man's dollar, or has that ghastly disparity begun to close?) None of these things seem related to size. If it comes down to physical confrontation, I think it's fairly obvious that a little skill and/or some tools (i.e. a gun, a knife, even a key) will easily overcome whatever advantage size confers. The dawn of tool use in humans occurred so long ago that it seems silly to attribute our current sex roles to some ancient wrestling match that women lost. Eleanor: I loved your novel _Ring of Swords_. It was subtle, funny, thought-provoking... and the power that the women wielded was very interesting to me. I just would not have explained it in the way that you did. Emrah also wrote: >However, glorifying mystical experiences of femininity (in SF or in >social-scientific literature) is also dangerous waters. A feminist school >of thought must critically analyze sex, gender, and patriarchy; both >masculinity _and_ femininity must be critically approached. OK, it is >fantastic to read about a planet of androgyne humanoids (which is SF), or >it is insight-giving to learn how "I am protecting the forest" becomes "I >am part of the rain forest protecting myself. I am part of the rain forest >recently emerged into thinking," which consequently leads us to the >worship of Gaia the Goddess (which is social science)... However, >metaphysics (for me) cannot construct an agenda of real life, of political >struggle. We should not exaggerate what SF gives us. I agree that idealizing womanly virtues has its dangers. The concept of "Mother Earth" for example. The earth simply has no sex! Rather than trying to subsume all that is life-giving, balanced, context-sensitive, cooperative, etc. under the name of "woman" we might do better to free ourselves of sex definitions altogether. But perhaps society must first pass through the dialectical stage of negating manly virtues before we can reach the synthesis of androgyny. (Except, according to Marx, we would then start all over again, right? Incidentally, for an interesting SF critique of Marxism, I recommend Maureen McHugh's _China Mountain Zhang_.) Regarding SF's power to change "real life" -- I add my testimony to the many I have read/heard that my behavior and opinions have been altered many times in my life by the written word, some of it SF. Perhaps I was predisposed to change in those ways and what I read merely pushed me along. Regardless, I have been affected, sometimes in bad ways, sometimes in good ways. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead, OK Computer; Tricky, Pre-Millennium Tension "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:37:15 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970916235922.0072bf94@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gosh! I have found an empty terminal in the midst of a "red tape" war in the university. Now, let's see... On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > I also have reservations about the "size is dominance" theory when applied > to humans. As far as I know, there is no evidence at all for it, and some > against it. In my Sex Roles in Comparative Perspective class in college we > learned that -- taking yet another species as an example -- in chimpanzee > society a male's status is closely linked to only two things: 1. age and 2. > his mother's status. Not size. What this means in relation to humans is a > matter of debate. When I look at the world around me I see that a person's > parentage is the most telling influence on future economic and personal > success. And, as people age, they generally amass more contacts and > economic resources. (Much more the case for people who already have the > advantage of high-status parentage.) Then there is sex -- most men, > regardless of parentage, will benefit from advantages in the workplace that > women don't enjoy. (Do women still make $.65 to a man's dollar, or has that > ghastly disparity begun to close?) None of these things seem related to size. I totally agree with everything you say. Yet what I wanted to draw attention to was what we, as citizens of the Turkish Republic, witnessed: In most of the provinces of Turkey, a woman older than 13 cannot have a walk out freely, if she has some *bold* clothing. Furthermore, that a woman can work is like obsceneity to an average Muslim man. Because, woman is _weak_, she has Allah-given domestic responsibilities. Let's make a Star Wars analogy: Woman do not and cannot have "the Force", so they are bound to be ruled, to be under domination. Now, it can be argued that _physical_ domination may be a subset, a result of the more serious cultural/ideological/political/economic domination. Of course. But what I, as a student of sociology, observe on the surface, is extreme physical humiliation of women. Some weeks ago, a young woman was killed by her family, as a result of family consensus, because she was working as a hostess; which was a sign for the family that she would be a whore. I live in a country where there are orthodox Marxist male revolutionaries famous for beating their wives at home after crying "Freedom to the People of the World!" or "Forward For a Communist World!" in political meetings. EMRAH ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I live in a country where there are orthodox Marxist male revolutionaries >famous for beating their wives at home after crying "Freedom to the People >of the World!" or "Forward For a Communist World!" in political meetings. > >EMRAH Emrah, Well, I'm sure there are a few of those types of "people" in America, too. I suspect they might be getting fewer as more women are working out and getting able to kick their husbands' ass. :-) I gotta say, though, the stuff you talked about before, like the average male muslim's attitude toward working women, the hostess incident, these are pretty fu**ing horrific. I'm a little in shock. I know bad stuff goes on in the world, but it's so senseless sometimes. Ugh. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:08:50 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Crossing Press, et al Comments: To: Berni Phillips In-Reply-To: <341EBD65.78CB@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Berni Phillips wrote: > > Rudy Leon wrote: > > > I'm Rudy Leon, and I am a grad student in religion, > > American religion and New Religious Movements, at Syracuse U., and this > > semester I am teaching a course on Religion in Feminist Utopian Fantasy > > Novels. We just finished Herland, and this next couple of weeks are doing > > Wanderground (Gearhart) and Suzie Charnas' Walk to the End of the World and > > Motherlines. Rudy - you'll also want to get THE FURIES, the last book in the series. The Riding Women and Free Fems go back to reconquer Holdfast and some serious moral issues (as in the French Revolution and its aftermath) come up. We'll also be reading Dispossessed; Woman on the Edge of > > Time; Marraiges Between Zones 3, 4, 5; Fifth Sacred Thing; Handmaid's Tale; > Back up HANDMAID"S TALE with Robert Heinlein"s REVOLT IN 2100. Same culture, opposite ends of the arc ... and Atwood has never read Heinlein in her life. Also they made a film of HANDMAID's TALE which to my mind is cleaner and neater and a better story than the book. Try to rent it. > and Gate to Women's Country. GATE TO WOMEN"S COUNTRY is absolutely the best feminist post-toastie I've ever read. It's also a parable on the sins of well-meaning rulers. I am actually really curious if this seems > > like a cliched list to people 'in the know'. The students also have to do > > a comparative study with an 'outside' book, most likely one of the ones I > > ended up deciding not to use for the class, or any sugegestions that I hear > > here. > > Unless your students are really devoted to the genre, I doubt very much > if they will have read many or even a few of these. This looks like a > good selection for your topic, in my opinion. Welcome. I'd be curious > to hear periodically how your students respond to the various books. > > Berni > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:09:33 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Comments: To: Berni Phillips In-Reply-To: <341EBACD.4DD@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When I was 10 my heroes and role models were Wonder Woman and Catwoman. It helped. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:34:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain emrah goker wrote: >In most of the provinces of Turkey, a woman older than 13 cannot have a walk out freely, if she has some *bold* clothing. Furthermore, that a woman can work is like obsceneity to an average Muslim man. emrah-- I've spent some time working in the Middle East myself, in Syria though, not Turkey, and I definitely found all that to be true. As a Western woman, I was generally treated well by most everyone, except for those who assumed I was a prostitute from the former Soviet Union (for example, I once had to punch out an overly "friendly" teenager while touring Aleppo's Citadel), but I always got the impression that I was being treated as an honorary man, rather than as a working woman. The fact that I'm six feet tall may have helped in this (which is related to the size/dominace thread going on). Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:34:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanne Striley Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970916235922.0072bf94@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:59 PM 9/16/97 -0400, Janice Dawley wrote: >Do women still make $.65 to a man's dollar, or has that ghastly disparity begun to close? What a fine, utopian idea! Alas the status is still pretty much quo. A very good summary of many areas of inequality (focusing mainly on Western women) is *The Beauty Myth* by Naomi Wolf, a nice blood-boiling reminder lest we think "this stuff can't still happen in the 90s!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:03:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF -the Middle East Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone read N. Lee Wood's _Looking for the Mahdi_? I believe it is set in the Middle East. How did feminity and Allah fare in her take? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:09:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don't know who is reading the book currently (and I second the person who liked the Perez run the best), but in the truth is as strange as fiction category, the Oct issue, which shipped in late August, is made up to look like a newspaper, with a headline like "Princess Diana Struck Down." Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:45:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF -the Middle East -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >>Anyone read N. Lee Wood's _Looking for the Mahdi_? I believe it is set in the Middle East. How did feminity and Allah fare in her take? It was a pretty good book. And femininity and Allah did not fare well. *Warning, spoilers* The main character disguised herself as a man to give herself freedom while working in the imaginary country (whose name I can't remember offhand). When she wanted to sneak out, she veiled herself as a woman, and the extreme bruising she had previously received from the bad guys were looked upon by the border guards as normal wifely chastisement. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:02:33 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Average heights of women and men (slightly off-topic) In-Reply-To: <19970915.231400.10310.1.avs5@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > > >I got in trouble for saying something like this once, but I believe that > >the best self-defense are one's brain and one's gun. At least, neither > is > >gender- or fitness-dependent. If you don't believe me, try living in a > >war zone city with no government and full of crazy drugged armed militia > men. > > > >Marina > Marina, you need to meet Leslie Fish. Or listen to some of her tapes. I'd suggest FIRESTORM and SISTER JENNY if you can find them > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF << (Do women still make $.65 to a man's dollar, or has that ghastly disparity begun to close?) >> It's about $.72 now. Some improvement, but still... >I agree that idealizing womanly virtues has its dangers. The concept of >"Mother Earth" for example. As someone who's very interested in earth-based spiritualities, I've found that a lot of feminist theorists are so concerned with essentialism that they totally miss the point of the power inherent in symbolism and metaphor, which are after all a large part of any religion. Many modern religious ideas are, as I'm sure all will agree, highly male-oriented and -dominated. This has not always been the case. The use of goddess imagery is a way of reclaiming pre-Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim, etc) traditions that held women as sacred. It gives women a symbol of strength, power, and creativity that cannot be found in these other religions. Obviously the Earth has no literal sex, but the metaphor of Earth as Mother--the one who creates our bodies, and provides us with what we need to survive--has been a powerful one in traditions all over the world. To state that there is a connection between women and nature is not to exclude men--there is plenty of masculine imagery available along these lines too (ie, the Celtic Green Man, Native American Father Sky). >"...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; >the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and >servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas One of my favorite books. Great to see it quoted! Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildiko Paulovitch Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF Janice, In reponse to your question, women now earn 71.4 cents for every dollar a man makes. Ms., 25th Anniversary additon. ildiko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Best of Soviet SF (series) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970916185630.00696590@deepcove.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, patricia johnston wrote: > Have just picked up "Prisoners of Power" by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky. > Will read it soon. Has anyone read any of the other books in the series? > They are,,,,,World Soul, Definitely Maybe, Half a Life, Noon: 22nd Century, > and The Uncertainty Principle. Patricia, I've read "A Snail on the Slope of the Mountain" (at least that was the Russian title), and three other books by Strugatsky Brothers, which titles I don't remember, unfortunately. I was always wondering if their books would not lose their meaning in translation. Most of them are very culture-dependent, involving a lot of Russian and even Soviet mythology, that is hard to explain unless you've learned it in pre-kindergarten. Strugatskys often employ traditional fairy-tale characters, interpreting their magical abilities in a "scientific" and often humorous manner (the only thing close to that I can think of is Robert Shekley's "Goblin's Refuge"). They also made fun of "mainstream" Soviet sf ( with bright-eyed builders of Communism who enthusiastically recited poems while saving the world from capitalism, and stuff like that). My personal opinion is that Strugatskys' novels were the best of Soviet science fiction. What do you think about them? Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:39:17 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: Tananarive Due MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > Tananarive Due is one of the few African-American writers doing fantasy > and horror. Her first novel, The Between, received excellent reviews. > Just out is her second novel, My Soul to Keep, from HarperCollins (and > HarperCollins Canada Ltd.), which is also receiving lots of positive press > in the publishing industry. > > Mike Levy lg: I've found Tananarive Due to be a chilling and compelling writer. Hard for me to put her down until the book is done, even if 3 a.m. Her male-female relationships are not models of feminist interacion... but very real. luz "It is easier to ignore reality when that reality is so expressive, so clear as to its meaning, that the simple act of speaking of it with truth constitutes a 'subversive' act." Ignacio Martin-Baro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Tananarive Due MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Should anyone happen to read her new novel, I'd appreciate it if you could post your reactions, either just to me, or to the whole group. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 02:11:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: donations to Tiptree on behalf of Judy Merril Comments: cc: Pat York MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pat, it seems to be official now that people wanting to remember Judy Merril can make donations to the Tiptree Award. At least, it says so in her obit notices. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:57:09 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > > When I was 10 my heroes and role models were Wonder Woman and Catwoman. > It helped. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu When I was 10 there were so few female heroes. Wonder Woman, Cat Woman, they were more my style than Mary Poppins! Who else was there? Do you remember Poison Ivy -- she was an enemy of Batman who, for at least a few issues in the mid-sixties, had her own "short" after the cover story in Batman comics. luz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:13:42 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: Comic book heroes (Was height and gender bodies - Xena) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > > Sean Johnston wrote: > > > > >On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > > > > > >> shrugged and said Callisto is cool. He prefers X-men's Storm. > > > > > >NH: Storm is my hero. Wish they'd do something about that pressed hair, > > >though. Used to have a Storm doll up until a few months ago, when I gave > > >her to a friend who needed her more than I did. > > > > > >-nalo > > > > > >"There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the > > >small fruit that you eat." > > > -my aunt > > > > Myself, I like Bishop and Rogue. Never cared much for Cyclops or > > Archangel, esp. with those razor-sharp wings. Wolverine's in kind of class > > by himself, but he needs those adamantium claws back. He tried using > > regular, non-metal claws on the Hulk. Hulk just grabbed 'em and crushed > > 'em. Owww! > > > > -Sean > > I really like Rogue. I have the action figure (I have a collection > of women action figures from Star Trek, The X-men, and a couple > miscellaneous heroes. . .). I used to keep her at my desk at work > until someone told me she was valuable enough for someone to take. > > As a borrowed alter-ego, she is great. Untouchable (which is tragic > and life-saving in different situations), practically indestructable. > Really hard to sneak up on. . . A great character for when I am > feeling a bit fragile. > > She's earthy, complex, smart and talks like my Great-Aunt Cricket. > I wish she would be featured more in the cartoon and various comic book > story lines. > > Often, she is drawn with even bigger boobs than Barbie, which is not > satisfactory. Seems that some think she has to balance her strength > with "femininity." I'd worry that breasts of such gigantic proportion > would make it difficult TO balance, much less fly. Good thing she's > stronger than anyone else on the planet. . . > > Lindy > -- > If you can't say anything nice. . . come right over here and sit by me! > > http://www.best.com/~laorka I know, the unrealistic female bodies would seem to hamper our heroines' abilities to get around. It's so funny, I can accept alot of fantasy and fiction in my literature or comic books... but certain basic mechanical incongruities (like those breasts really would get in the way in they type of combat the X-men take on) interrupt my flight into fantasy! luz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > > -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > > Emrah said: > > > I feel that this whole discussion about sports, muscles, power, comic > heroes, > > is going a bit (to be modest) far away from our main topic. > > Aren't comic books a legit topic? Wonder Woman, at least? Wonder Woman > was conceived as a sort of feminist comic book, way back in the '40s, a > real standout in that era. (If anybody has a collection of these early > stories, I'd like to trade for it.) I was wondering how comics fans on > the list felt about the treatments of the character since that time, > particularly the current series which I believe is being done by John > Byrne. Worth checking out? > > -- > David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com > > "Yet, throughout the book there exists the whole gamut of strange facts > which we ourselves had been aware of for years, all carefully mustered > to support a theory doomed by every process of logic to be forever > incomprehensible." > - Ray Palmer Comic book heroes were my entry point to science fiction -- along with the Star Trek series on TV. They led me to the classics. AND having strong female characters visible (I remember the wall of comic books in my neighborhood newstand that were dominated by images of men and war -- except Veronica & Betty, need I say more?) as a young girl I was drawn towards these potentially feminist characters. luz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:15:52 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OFF-THE-RECORD: Recently I have announced that I would not be able to answer anyone till next week. Fortunately, course registration dates were postponed. On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Debra Euler wrote: > I've spent some time working in the Middle East myself, in Syria > though, not Turkey, and I definitely found all that to be true. As a > Western woman, I was generally treated well by most everyone, except > for those who assumed I was a prostitute from the former Soviet Union > (for example, I once had to punch out an overly "friendly" teenager > while touring Aleppo's Citadel), but I always got the impression that > I was being treated as an honorary man, rather than as a working > woman. The fact that I'm six feet tall may have helped in this > (which is related to the size/dominace thread going on). I wondered what your mission was in Syria. Now, of course it is wrong to rectify a nasty stereotype of Muslim males: Dirty, ignorant, sexist, cruel, etc. etc. No. That's racism. And attacking Islam from the Western, capitalist, New-World-Orderist front is also not my way (it is the Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, etc. way). That attack, although it is not a directly feminist criticism (but may well use it) only leads to form exclusionary policies, that is, "Let them starve" kind of discourse. I hate to see, from an atheist eye, what a male God's (Allah's) religion has done to my country for long centuries. Women's subordination is one of the major maladies inflicted by Islam. But is westernization of Turkey, or of Middle East the UNIVERSAL solution? True, most of us, Turkish (or Muslim, though I exclude myself from the Muslim set) males (and please do not read that _I_ also think so) have solidified stereotypes of foreign women. Let me give an example, after the fall of Societ Union, thousands of Russian and Romanian women migrated to Turkey not to die of hunger, to feed their families, to find refuge. My people have labeled ALL of them "Natashas", believing they are all prostitutes... And we do not have any stereotype of a working woman who is not dependent on any male, and is successful. Now of course Turkey is the most westernized of all Middle Eastern Muslim countries (*very* unlike Syria), we have the yuppie culture, we have our pop-metal-rock-rap listening, McDonald's loving, depoliticized "Generation Lost". But those belong to the minority: To the upper and middle-upper classes. Hungry, poor masses, the proletariat and lumpenproletariat, after the defeat of revolutionary left in the fascist coup d'etat of 1980, rely on political Islamic movements. So all traditional creations of men about women are mostly reproduced, seldom reformed. That's a very long story. And I am aware the subject is getting away from SF. A last thing: Your being independent, working, six-feet-tall, and foreigner makes you a creature from outer space in the eyes of the average Muslim. Not a woman (of course, you may still be found sexually attractive), not a man. Can't be a woman ("Real women are slaves"), isn't sure a man. EMRAH ("Back to the topic," I hear you say) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:23:09 +0400 Reply-To: emrah goker Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: <970917195549_1427743806@emout16.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Ildiko Paulovitch wrote: > Janice, > In reponse to your question, women now earn 71.4 cents for every dollar a > man makes. Ms., 25th Anniversary additon. ildiko In Turkish textile industry, which is largely female-dominated, they earn as low as 30 or 40% of male wages, and they are not allowed to establish unions. In fact, an average female worker is in the labor market for not more than 4-5 months, so how to unionize? EMRAH ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:35:43 +0400 Reply-To: emrah goker Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Emrah, > Well, I'm sure there are a few of those types of "people" in > America, too. I suspect they might be getting fewer as more women are > working out and getting able to kick their husbands' ass. :-) > I gotta say, though, the stuff you talked about before, like the > average male muslim's attitude toward working women, the hostess incident, > these are pretty fu**ing horrific. I'm a little in shock. > I know bad stuff goes on in the world, but it's so senseless > sometimes. Ugh. > -Sean Sorry to horrify you. But there are many hopeless, thoughtful, worried intellectuals like me (hey, am I an intellectual!). What is worse is that we are beginning to get used to the horror. Tribal decisions about the fate of a member of the family are very common in Muslim societies. When a patriarch (be him a father or a prime minister) feels that the "namus" (a complicated Turkish word for religious honor and pride) of the community (be it a family or a nation) is harmed, he will not hesitate to take action against the guilty: So are to-be-prostitutes killed, so are communists tortured, so are female professors criticizing Islam are assasinated. In fact, religion is more "pretty f**king horrific" than all this. It doesn't matter it is Islam or Christianity or Judaism. Big Brother is bored watching us. He will begin killing. EMRAH ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:24:18 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Comments: To: Luz Guerra In-Reply-To: <34211714.6C78@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > > When I was 10 there were so few female heroes. Wonder Woman, Cat Woman, > they were more my style than Mary Poppins! Who else was there? Do you > remember Poison Ivy -- she was an enemy of Batman who, for at least a > few issues in the mid-sixties, had her own "short" after the cover story > in Batman comics. > I don't really remember Poison Ivy. But - who else was there? Gloria Brooks McNye in Heinlein's "Delilah and the Space Rigger", written in 1946, who got her job under an equal-opportunity law passed in Mundania in 1964, and proceeded to kick chauvinist ass. Dr Mary Lou Martin in Heinlein's "Let There Be Light". Both women, I think, were classmates of MASH's Margaret Houlihan, who I started to really like once she got a commanding officer she could respect and stopped trying to run the camp all be herself with that weak reed Frank Burns as her front man. The best role models around were out of books from the early 1900s on - Lost and GI Generation women. And don't forget - the latter might include Edith Bunker and Mom, but it also included Hot Lips, Rosie the Riveter, and what career women were around until the next wave of feminism. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:31:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Role models In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gretchen Nunn in Alfred Bester's _Golem 100._ Cover art by Rowena, and the first time I'd seen a Black woman in sf depicted as such. That drew me to the book, and I stayed for the writing. First time too I read an sf novel in an experimental, non-linear style that incorporated graphics as part of the text. And Miz Nunn was a sexy, strong, smart, wiseass, wisecracking woman. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:45:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jen Hill Subject: Mary Poppins and SF Comments: To: Luz Guerra In-Reply-To: <34211714.6C78@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The 'real' Mary Poppins as portrayed by P.L. Travers in the Poppins series is no sugary Julie Andrews... and, perfect for this list, is the fact that when she isn't with the family on Cherry Tree Lane, she's taking care of princes on another planet. (In one book they come down looking for her and she's quite displeased.) Is she a feminist? Let's just say she efficiently stages a takeover of the Banks family with its bureacratic petit bourgeois patriarch and there is no romance with the chimney sweep! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:06:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: new title MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm thrilled to be able to tell people that a first sf novel by my friend Zainab Amadahy is about to hit the stands. I've copied the blurb and ordering info. straight out of the Sister Vision Press Fall Catalogue, so please note that the words are *not* mine, I'm simply informing you that the novel now exists. (And that Zainab's a really cool woman). :) Zainab: go, girl! -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt THE MOONS OF PALMARES A novel by Zainab Amadahy ISBN 1-896705-22-7 6 x 9 paper 224 pages Release: October 1997 $17.95 CAN $14.95 US Published by Sister Vision: Black Women and Women of Colour Press, Toronto, Canada This fast-paced feminist adventure novel takes place in the distant future on a faraway world, but it's a world that will seem strangely familiar to readers interested in postcolonial issues and Third World politics. Zaria Aquene - dancer, secret Kituhwan operative, and lover of the leader of the resistance movement - has a lot on her mind. The new Major's infatuation with her is strategically useful - but what if he finds out she's a double agent? If she has to, wi ll she have the nerve to kill for her planet's survival? Idealistic, Earth-born Major Leith Eaglefeather believes he's being stationed on Palmares to protect its citizens as well as its quilidon mines. A shadowy group called the Kituhwa is waging a campaign of sabotage and destruction against the foreign-based mining consortium, and Eaglefeather despises terrorism. But after a few weeks on the beautiful, unspoiled violet planet, he is beginning to realize there's another side to the story. Are his superiors hiding the truth? And can he really trust the love ly but contentious local dancer whom he's enlisted as a spy? An entertaining must-read for science fiction buffs and social justice advocates alike, _The Moons of Palmares_ introduces a fresh, sharply original new voice to the Canadian literary scene. Zainab Amadahy was born in New York City, USA and has lived in Canada since 1975. Her mixed-race background includes both African American and Cherokee. A single mother of three boys, Zainab has 15 years of experience working in the community sector for non-profit housing, anti-apartheid groups, women's organizations, and First Nations agencies. She says, "I have long been a fan of good science fiction because it is a genre which sometimes transcends the limiatations of our current world, particularly its 'isms.'" Individual orders: Sister Vision Press P.O. Box 217, Station E Toronto, Ont. Canada M6H 4E2 Ph: (416) 533-9353 fax: (416) 533-9676 e-mail: sisvis@web.net Booksellers, schools, libraries and other trade customers should contact Sister Vision's distributors in the U.S., Canada or the U.K. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:43:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MaryKay Bird-Guilliams Subject: Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF? In-Reply-To: <970916180029_-1532758993@emout11.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My post of a couple of weeks ago may have been off subject slightly (re the recent book by Deborah Blum "Sex on the Brain") but this extrapolation based on the material in that book is not. The underlying assumption that male is normal is carried out in much of "classic" of science fiction literature and it is exactly that which distinguishes it from feminist science fiction. I don't, personally, have a problem with male perspective, per se, so much as I object to the entire universe being codified according to male standards. Mary K. Bird-Guilliams marykbg@wichita.lib.ks.us Reference Librarian Wichita Public Library ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:47:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Mary Poppins and SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Yes, the original was much more real than the film...I must say though, that when I read the novel as a kid, I found her scary. I kept waiting for her to start spanking the kids. She didn't seem to like them very much. Which may say more of my then expectations of adults than anything about the book. -nalo On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Jen Hill wrote: > The 'real' Mary Poppins as portrayed by P.L. Travers in the Poppins > series is no sugary Julie Andrews... and, perfect for this list, is > the fact that when she isn't with the family on Cherry Tree Lane, she's > taking care of princes on another planet. (In one book they come down > looking for her and she's quite displeased.) > > Is she a feminist? Let's just say she efficiently stages a takeover of > the Banks family with its bureacratic petit bourgeois patriarch and there > is no romance with the chimney sweep! > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: Tananarive Due MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > Should anyone happen to read her new novel, I'd appreciate it if you > could post your reactions, either just to me, or to the whole group. > > -nalo > > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the > small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt Nalo: I started to post my impressions of Tananarive Due and lost it all with an accidental key stroke. I did read My Soul to Keep and be glad to chat / post my response next week, am heading out now. Have you read it? Luz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:56:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: off topic - wage gap Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >From IGC, from New York Times, from Bureau of Labor Statistics: Originally posted in IGC member conference: women.labr Date: September 15, 1997 Posted by: labornews@igc.org /* Written 5:28 PM Sep 15, 1997 by labornews@igc.org in women.labr */ /* ---------- "Wage Gap Between Men and Women, Onc" ---------- */ New York Times -- September 15, 1997 WAGE GAP BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, ONCE NARROWING, IS NOW WIDENING By TAMAR LEWIN After nearly two decades in which the wage gap between men and women was steadily narrowing, it is now widening again, piquing confusion and concern among economists and women's groups alike. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median weekly earnings of full-time working women are just under 75 percent of the men's median, down from 77 percent four years ago. Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:59:16 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Gender attitudes in the Middle East/Indian subcontinent (was On Femininity and SF -Reply) This thread may be getting a bit off the list topic but re the recent discussions about gender attitudes in Turkey/the Islamic world generally, my experiences (as a 5 ft 1 in European woman) when I was travelling (not as hippy back in the old days of the hippy trail but on sabbatical leave from my then job to look at various archives) in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India in the late 70s in 3 different countries may be of some interest. In Afghanistan, at least in Kabul, I was largely ignored. One rather elderly man in Herat was, I think in retrospect, trying to pick me up, but was not aggressive about it. There was a spooky moment or two in Kandahar when the coach deposited me and the Indian woman with whom I was travelling in the main square after curfew, and we were escorted to the archaeologists' dig house where we were staying by the military, but our treatment was impeccably courteous. In Pakistan, where I was travelling alone although I had official contacts in all places I went, a lot of calling out in the streets (and in one case at an airport where I was trying to check in, but was rescued by a Pakistani matriarch who gave them whatfor very loudly herself and escorted me to the purdah waiting area), but the only serious hands-on sexual harassment I experienced was in fact from one of my official contacts! It was a time (during the military regime) when buses, trains, etc all had special purdah seats (and even some university libraries), and women were only seen in public in groups. In India (I can only really speak for New Delhi) there was not the sense of purdah which there had been in Pakistan (and which had been much less in evidence in Afghanistan, at least in Kabul), but much more specific and hard to repel pick-up attempts in the streets. Not of course an Islamic culture, though perhaps more influenced by it than South India? ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of emrah goker Sent: 18 September 1997 12:15 To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] On Femininity and SF -Reply OFF-THE-RECORD: Recently I have announced that I would not be able to answer anyone till next week. Fortunately, course registration dates were postponed. On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Debra Euler wrote: > I've spent some time working in the Middle East myself, in Syria > though, not Turkey, and I definitely found all that to be true. As a > Western woman, I was generally treated well by most everyone, except > for those who assumed I was a prostitute from the former Soviet Union > (for example, I once had to punch out an overly "friendly" teenager > while touring Aleppo's Citadel), but I always got the impression that > I was being treated as an honorary man, rather than as a working > woman. The fact that I'm six feet tall may have helped in this > (which is related to the size/dominace thread going on). I wondered what your mission was in Syria. Now, of course it is wrong to rectify a nasty stereotype of Muslim males: Dirty, ignorant, sexist, cruel, etc. etc. No. That's racism. And attacking Islam from the Western, capitalist, New-World-Orderist front is also not my way (it is the Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, etc. way). That attack, although it is not a directly feminist criticism (but may well use it) only leads to form exclusionary policies, that is, "Let them starve" kind of discourse. I hate to see, from an atheist eye, what a male God's (Allah's) religion has done to my country for long centuries. Women's subordination is one of the major maladies inflicted by Islam. But is westernization of Turkey, or of Middle East the UNIVERSAL solution? True, most of us, Turkish (or Muslim, though I exclude myself from the Muslim set) males (and please do not read that _I_ also think so) have solidified stereotypes of foreign women. Let me give an example, after the fall of Societ Union, thousands of Russian and Romanian women migrated to Turkey not to die of hunger, to feed their families, to find refuge. My people have labeled ALL of them "Natashas", believing they are all prostitutes... And we do not have any stereotype of a working woman who is not dependent on any male, and is successful. Now of course Turkey is the most westernized of all Middle Eastern Muslim countries (*very* unlike Syria), we have the yuppie culture, we have our pop-metal-rock-rap listening, McDonald's loving, depoliticized "Generation Lost". But those belong to the minority: To the upper and middle-upper classes. Hungry, poor masses, the proletariat and lumpenproletariat, after the defeat of revolutionary left in the fascist coup d'etat of 1980, rely on political Islamic movements. So all traditional creations of men about women are mostly reproduced, seldom reformed. That's a very long story. And I am aware the subject is getting away from SF. A last thing: Your being independent, working, six-feet-tall, and foreigner makes you a creature from outer space in the eyes of the average Muslim. Not a woman (of course, you may still be found sexually attractive), not a man. Can't be a woman ("Real women are slaves"), isn't sure a man. EMRAH ("Back to the topic," I hear you say) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:48:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: new title In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'm thrilled to be able to tell people that a first sf novel by my friend >Zainab Amadahy is about to hit the stands. I've copied the blurb and >ordering info. straight out of the Sister Vision Press Fall Catalogue, so >please note that the words are *not* mine, I'm simply informing you that >the novel now exists. (And that Zainab's a really cool woman). :) > >Zainab: go, girl! > >-nalo > >"There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the >small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt > Amazing, isn't it, what (in my opinion) Butler helped so much to start? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:50:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>From IGC, from New York Times, from Bureau of Labor Statistics: > >Originally posted in IGC member conference: women.labr >Date: September 15, 1997 >Posted by: labornews@igc.org > >/* Written 5:28 PM Sep 15, 1997 by labornews@igc.org in women.labr */ >/* ---------- "Wage Gap Between Men and Women, Onc" ---------- */ > > >New York Times -- September 15, 1997 > >WAGE GAP BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, ONCE NARROWING, IS NOW WIDENING > >By TAMAR LEWIN > >After nearly two decades in which the wage gap between men and women was >steadily narrowing, it is now widening again, piquing confusion and concern >among economists and women's groups alike. > >According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median weekly earnings of >full-time working women are just under 75 percent of the men's median, down >from 77 percent four years ago. > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > >"If I can't dance, I don't want to be >in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman > > FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL Laura, Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of backlash, perhaps? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:47:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kloss, Ingrid B." Subject: Re: Crossing Press, et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like Rudy, I am also new to the list and have been wading through everyone's comments, waiting to find a thread. My name is Ingrid Kloss and I am a senior English/Theatre Arts major at Susquehanna University (in the middle of Pennsylvania...rural Pennsylvania!). My favorite English class here at SU was Utopian Literature, a wonderfully small class in which we read most of the books on your list, Rudy--"Herland", "Woman on the Edge of Time," in addition to some standards like More's "Utopia" which started the course. Having read "The Handmaid's Tale" and "The Disposessed" on my own, I found that I got a lot more out of the course and frequently made comparisons back to literature by LeGuin, and others--including Anne McCaffrey, who, although she is not an author to hold up as a feminist role model, I enjoyed her books when I was younger and can definitely credit her with igniting my love for the genre. I apologize for the lateness of this message. One of the problems of a small school is that the network is frequently down, or the computer labs are terribly full! >---------- >From: Rudy Leon[SMTP:releon@SYR.EDU] >Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 3:15 PM >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Crossing Press, et al > >At 10:36 AM 9/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >>-- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- >> >> >>Does this book's subtitle, "Women's Fantasy & SF" signify something >>about the material other than the fact that it's written by women (as >>"women's music" seems to)? Are books by Crossing Press and others (Naiad >>?) getting respect in the SF field? I'm also wondering how these small >>feminist presses are faring in the current publishing upheavals, if >>anybody has any inside info. >>-- >>David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com >> > I am new to the list, as of last week, and have been waiting for a break >on the size thread to introduce myself. perhaps the most important thing >to know is that my mail reader does not do spell check, so I apologize for >my awful typing. I'm Rudy Leon, and I am a grad student in religion, >American religion and New Religious Movements, at Syracuse U., and this >semester I am teaching a course on Religion in Feminist Utopian Fantasy >Novels. We just finished Herland, and this next couple of weeks are doing >Wanderground (Gearhart) and Suzie Charnas' Walk to the End of the World and >Motherlines. We'll also be reading Dispossessed; Woman on the Edge of >Time; Marraiges Between Zones 3, 4, 5; Fifth Sacred Thing; Handmaid's Tale; >and Gate to Women's Country. I am actually really curious if this seems >like a cliched list to people 'in the know'. The students also have to do >a comparative study with an 'outside' book, most likely one of the ones I >ended up deciding not to use for the class, or any sugegestions that I hear >here. > >To respond to David's questions, in doing research for this class I found a >good many articles in Extrapolation and SFS on Women's SF, but in books >these authors were barely and rarely mentioned. Except, of course, in >books focusing on Feminist SF. So my guess is that the SF 'experts' do not >concede that this is either an important or genuine movement. > >However, I am also on the Utopia-L listserv, and the discussion there has >led me to believe even more strongly that this genre is really where the >cutting edge is--the questions being debated there seem old and tired and >one sided, lacking the complexity and texture shown in some of these books. > I think that to the degree that feminism has to engage humanism it is >changing the way people look at the future and its possibilities, and it >may idealistic of me, but isn't that what SF is about? And a really good >SF story gives a through and convincing look at all the details which hold >life together? Traditional SF has largely been responding to LeGuin (and >others) when it even looks at social structure and gender roles... > >I'll stop there, since I'm still trying to get a feel for the list (and the >genre), but I ma really looking forward to this list... > >peace >Rudy > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:07:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Retractible Male Anatomy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few days ago when I first began reading this list, I saw a couple of postings that mentioned the vulnerability of male genitalia due to its external location. One writer observed that maybe someday humans would evolve a retractible penis, she thought that sounded like a good idea.. Finally located my copy of "Transition," a novel by Vonda N. McIntyre. This is a sequel to her novel "Starfarers," and both of these books include a character who has just such an anatomical convenience. The author has created for her story a genetically engineered human subspecies called "divers," and the penis (and everything else, for that matter) of the male diver retracts inside the body for more efficient swimming when it isn't - ah - in use. I knew I'd seen that idea somewhere in someone's SF novel! (Never thought this would be the subject of my first posting, though, I must admit.) Nina Osier mbarron@mint.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:27:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "H. Tytel" Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Laura, > Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of > backlash, perhaps? > > -Sean > I can't speak for Laura, but most of what I've seen suggests that this is the result of gender segregation in college and other post-High school education - most new high-paying jobs are in high tech or related fields (such as graphic design, etc.). WOmen tend to study humanities, and to come out with little computer training, so we don't qualify for these jobs. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:08:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildiko Paulovitch Subject: Re: Tananarive Due Nalo, Just wanted to say i just read your story in Black Swan, White Raven, thank you, thank you, it was wonderful!! I shall keep my eyes open for more, ildiko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:19:09 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Laura - Thanks for posting this, even if it is off-topic. I had heard about it, but haven't had time to run down any more information about it. Here's my question: The last time I tracked such things, the 77 cents represented what WHITE women earn on the dollar, whereas Hispanic women were only earning _54_ cents on the dollar! Do you have any information on the new figures with regard to non-white women? Laura >>From IGC, from New York Times, from Bureau of Labor Statistics: > >Originally posted in IGC member conference: women.labr >Date: September 15, 1997 >Posted by: labornews@igc.org > >/* Written 5:28 PM Sep 15, 1997 by labornews@igc.org in women.labr */ >/* ---------- "Wage Gap Between Men and Women, Onc" ---------- */ > > >New York Times -- September 15, 1997 > >WAGE GAP BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, ONCE NARROWING, IS NOW WIDENING > >By TAMAR LEWIN > >After nearly two decades in which the wage gap between men and women was >steadily narrowing, it is now widening again, piquing confusion and concern >among economists and women's groups alike. > >According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median weekly earnings of >full-time working women are just under 75 percent of the men's median, down >from 77 percent four years ago. > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > >"If I can't dance, I don't want to be >in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman > > FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:26:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: "Riding the Red" In-Reply-To: <970918200000_2019211204@emout05.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Aww. Thanks, Ildiko. The next Datlow/Windling fairy tale antho. is _Silver Birch, Blood Moon,_ and my short story "Precious" is in that one. -nalo On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Ildiko Paulovitch wrote: > Nalo, > Just wanted to say i just read your story in Black Swan, White Raven, > thank you, thank you, it was wonderful!! I shall keep my eyes open for more, > ildiko > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:32:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Tananarive Due Comments: To: Luz Guerra In-Reply-To: <34217429.2A3D@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > Nalo: > I started to post my impressions of Tananarive Due and lost it all with > an accidental key stroke. I did read My Soul to Keep and be glad to > chat / post my response next week, am heading out now. Have you read > it? > Luz NH: No, I haven't. Have found other reviews of it on-line. I mean to add it to my collection of sf by Black authors, but because of my work on the Tiptree jury, I'm also curious as to whether it's Tiptreeable, i.e. explores gender roles. From the reviews so far, it seems not, but it does seem to be a good book. -nalo > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:08:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII my last posting on the topic (since it is somewhat off topic and i don't want to violate rules i have to enforce for myself and others! (-8 ) i'll post the full article on my website at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/wagegap.html without knowing the real details about the various statistics that go into "wage gap" i think my impression has been that it was all fully-employed women vs. all fully-employed men. does not count part-time workers (of which there are more men). also i thought it reflected all races, but that there are great differentials between various ethnic groups. so that, for instance, there might be *less* of a wage gap b/w white men & women and more of one b/w "hispanic" men & women. i'll look on the Bureau of Labor Stats web page & see if I can get more details to link from the wage gap page ... peace. On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Laura Wigod wrote: > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:19:09 +0100 > From: Laura Wigod > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] off topic - wage gap > > Laura - Thanks for posting this, even if it is off-topic. I had heard > about it, but haven't had time to run down any more information about it. > Here's my question: The last time I tracked such things, the 77 cents > represented what WHITE women earn on the dollar, whereas Hispanic women > were only earning _54_ cents on the dollar! Do you have any information on > the new figures with regard to non-white women? > > Laura > > >>From IGC, from New York Times, from Bureau of Labor Statistics: > > > >Originally posted in IGC member conference: women.labr > >Date: September 15, 1997 > >Posted by: labornews@igc.org > > > >/* Written 5:28 PM Sep 15, 1997 by labornews@igc.org in women.labr */ > >/* ---------- "Wage Gap Between Men and Women, Onc" ---------- */ > > > > > >New York Times -- September 15, 1997 > > > >WAGE GAP BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, ONCE NARROWING, IS NOW WIDENING > > > >By TAMAR LEWIN > > > >After nearly two decades in which the wage gap between men and women was > >steadily narrowing, it is now widening again, piquing confusion and concern > >among economists and women's groups alike. > > > >According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median weekly earnings of > >full-time working women are just under 75 percent of the men's median, down > >from 77 percent four years ago. > > > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > > > >"If I can't dance, I don't want to be > >in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman > > > > FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:22:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: "Riding the Red" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Aww. Thanks, Ildiko. The next Datlow/Windling fairy tale antho. is >_Silver Birch, Blood Moon,_ and my short story "Precious" is in that one. > >-nalo Great. Now I have to retitle my story of the same name of "Precious". Oh, well. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:33:08 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nimal Jayawardhana Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Nina Osier >mbarron@mint.net >A few days ago when I first began reading this list, I saw a couple of >postings that mentioned the vulnerability of male genitalia due to its >external location. One writer observed that maybe someday humans would >evolve a retractible penis, she thought that sounded like a good idea.. I once new a guy who would not feel any blow to his genitalia when he was playing football (Australian Rules). In fact he wouldn't feel pain anywhere in his body; handy ability! Bulls and dogs (and many other animals) have retractable penises for that very purpose. Men now have to rely on Jock straps! The testacles need to remain away from the body during hot times lest the sperm die from overheating. I guess when diving pressure and cold are big issues so being sheltered inside a warm body is a good place for testacles. Salutes, |\| | |\/| ~8>P (nfjayawa@darwin.ntu.edu.au) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:33:11 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nimal Jayawardhana Subject: Re: Gender attitudes in the Middle East/Indian subcontinent (was On Femininity and SF -Reply) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am replying to a small part of what Lesley Hall wrote... I have thus included only the relevent sections... > In India (I can only really speak for New Delhi) there was not the sense of >purdah which there had been in Pakistan (and which had been much less in >evidence in Afghanistan, at least in Kabul), but much more specific and hard >to repel pick-up attempts in the streets. Not of course an Islamic culture, >though perhaps more influenced by it than South India? I travelled in from Delhi to Agra to Varanasi to Gaya, Bodh Gaya, Rajgir, Nalanda, KAthmandu, Calcutta, Madras (Chennai) and finally Colombo and around Sri Lanka. I found that white women were generally not treated very well in India, mainly due to the perceived reliance Indian women have on men. OFten you'd be asked, "Where's your husband?". Hinduism seems to be the dominant religion in INdia, aklthough many others do seem to be growing in Strength. The biggest problem with being a woman in INdia is the tight cultural bonds that are placed on girls and women in INdia itslef. White women are seen as "loose" and "easy" because they commonly have sex before marriage etcetera. Also most pornography in India is from Germany and Holland (probably other European countries and perhaps also USA), and thus portrays white women- So Indian blokes think, "They're all like that". It's most annoying! You can do your best- wearing loose fitting and/or modest clothing but you still may get groped on busses etcetera. I knew one woman who found the solution. She shaved her head. If you do this they think you are on a spiritual search and you are left alone. Monks are most often treated with respect. The pick up attempts are most annoying because they wouldn't dream of trying them on local women. Apart from the constant harrasment, INdia is a very beautiful and rewarding place. I met a woman on the Cordmandur (sp?) Express (Calcutta to Madras) who was an English Lecturer at a University on the East Coast, she was the only Indian woman I really talked to at length, I wish I had more time to talk feminism with her! I have tried to write, but to no avail. Salutes, |\| | |\/| ~8>P (Nimal Jayawardhana) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Role models Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think my first role models for the fantastic were the various girls who went adventuring in OZ and the related lands. Basically, I was sure for a long time, that if only I could take the right road, I too could hang out with Ozma and Dorothy and Billina, and the gang... Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com