"FEMINISTSF LOG9709D" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:38:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jeanine Pedersen Subject: Re: Mary Poppins and SF Try buying Mary Poppins in a book store these days. Last Christmas I tried buying it for one of my nieces. I tried Borders, Barnes & Noble, Crown & several local stores in Chicago -- Women & Children First & Barbara's -- I was told the same by all of them. They don't carry it, it isn't popular & they could try special ordering it from the publisher but that it could take 6 - 12 weeks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, H. Tytel wrote: > On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > Laura, > > Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of > > backlash, perhaps? > > > > -Sean > > > > I can't speak for Laura, but most of what I've seen suggests that this is > the result of gender segregation in college and other post-High school > education - most new high-paying jobs > are in high tech or related fields (such as graphic design, etc.). WOmen > tend to study humanities, and to come out with little computer > training, so we don't qualify for these jobs. > Admittedly, I came out of college with a History /Library Degree, and my sister with Art/Teaching. We are both working in the computer field now and where I have worked it is at least 50/50. I think the computer field is so desperate for people that can actually produce that gender prejudice is crumbling. I don't have any statistics but I suspect that part of the drop in % is due to A) the Baby boomlet taking women out of the market temporarily and /or dropping out of the fast track, and the current backlash against feminism ( a backlash which may finally be ending, I hope) Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: "Riding the Red" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Titles aren't copyrightable, so no need. Also, it's a pretty generic one-word title. Now, if your proposed title were to be, "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones," my advice would probably be different... :) -nalo On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >NH: Aww. Thanks, Ildiko. The next Datlow/Windling fairy tale antho. is > >_Silver Birch, Blood Moon,_ and my short story "Precious" is in that one. > > > >-nalo > > Great. Now I have to retitle my story of the same name of "Precious". Oh, > well. > > -Sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:41:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: Laura, Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of backlash, perhaps? On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, H. Tytel wrote: I can't speak for Laura, but most of what I've seen suggests that this is the result of gender segregation in college and other post-High school education - most new high-paying jobs are in high tech or related fields (such as graphic design, etc.). WOmen tend to study humanities, and to come out with little computer training, so we don't qualify for these jobs. At 09:58 AM 9/19/97 -0700, Denise Borgen wrote: Admittedly, I came out of college with a History /Library Degree, and my sister with Art/Teaching. We are both working in the computer field now and where I have worked it is at least 50/50. I think the computer field is so desperate for people that can actually produce that gender prejudice is crumbling. I don't have any statistics but I suspect that part of the drop in % is due to A) the Baby boomlet taking women out of the market temporarily and /or dropping out of the fast track, and the current backlash against feminism ( a backlash which may finally be ending, I hope) Well, I was browsing _The Mismeasure of Woman_ the other day at the bookstore and the author claimed that the closing of the wage gap was due not to women's rising salaries, but men's FALLING salaries (due to downsizing, etc.). Perhaps now that the economy is recovering, men are making back what they lost and the disparity is growing again. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead - OK Computer "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Well, I was browsing _The Mismeasure of Woman_ the other day at the > bookstore and the author claimed that the closing of the wage gap was due > not to women's rising salaries, but men's FALLING salaries (due to > downsizing, etc.). Perhaps now that the economy is recovering, men are > making back what they lost and the disparity is growing again. That's an interesting thought. I hadn't considered it, certainly. Anyway, this is all getting a bit away from F&SF literature, and I certainly hope that equal pay for equal work is not a fantasy... I will, however, give you this URL that a friend of mine dug up: http://www.dol.gov/dol/wb/public/programs/1w&occ.htm Going on this, it looks like a lot of the disparity is the type of job. I.e., more women are in jobs with traditionally lower income. The stats in the above page include some information about part-time vs. full-time (women seem to have the edge in part-time work, but not as much as the men have in full-time), white vs. black vs. hispanic, young vs. old, etc. There's also some break-down by occupational sector. The data looks to be from 1995. That's obviously not all of it. Another friend related a story that a new manager came in and found a disparity between the salaries of men and women in his group, so he immediately brought the women up to parity. This was in the computer software industry in California. Perhaps oddly (perhaps not), female enrollment in Computer Science at the local university has been dropping for several years. I don't have the figures, though. As distressing as all of this is, perhaps we should try to get back toward F&SF... (I'll do my part by shutting up now... :-) Pax, -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:04:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Trying to find a book Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu Comments: cc: mfulton@u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This message posted for Margaret Fulton, who is not a subscriber. Please send responses directly to her at . Thanks, Chris >Hi. Sci fi is a bit outside my usual reading list but I read a book a >couple years ago that I liked quite a bit. Unfortunately, I can remember >neither the title of the book or the name of the author (which is, sadly, >typical of me). VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. > >Can somebody tell me who and what? > >Thanks, >Margaret ----- The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign the conspiracy is working. Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Denise Borgen replied: >On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, H. Tytel wrote: >> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: >> > Laura, >> > Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of >> > backlash, perhaps? >> > >> > -Sean >> I can't speak for Laura, but most of what I've seen suggests that this is >> the result of gender segregation in college and other post-High school >> education - most new high-paying jobs >> are in high tech or related fields (such as graphic design, etc.). WOmen >> tend to study humanities, and to come out with little computer >> training, so we don't qualify for these jobs. >Admittedly, I came out of college with a History /Library Degree, and my >sister with Art/Teaching. We are both working in the computer field now >and where I have worked it is at least 50/50. I think the computer >field is so desperate for people that can actually produce that gender >prejudice is crumbling. Unfortunately, as something of a veteran, I see the opposite. When microcomputing was a wide-open frontier, anyone could get in. I personally know several women who were first exposed to computing because it made letters, so it was like a typewriter, so they gave it to the secretary; and in a few years she was office manager, or completely independent. Much less of that goes on in here the late Nineties. Also, the field continues to become more credentialized. Now that it's big and important, the dred Personnel Department has their less-evolved paws on it, and things continue to deteriorate. ("I've worked with eight different word processors in my twenty years of experience; I'll pick up yours with no trouble." "But you don't have experience with XXX-omatic, and that's what we have here." "That's a proprietary program. No one outside your company can possibly have experience with it." "Well, you'll be hearing from us." "[sub-vocally] Yeah, right!" Still, in proportion to the pay, status and chance to stya clean while making a decent living, DP is way out in front. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:34:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keri Stone Subject: Re: Trying to find a book Comments: To: mfulton@u.washington.edu I'm pretty sure this is one of Suzette Elgin's Native Tongue books (number 3 I think) Keri Stone In a message dated 9/22/97 9:20:07 PM, you wrote: >>Hi. Sci fi is a bit outside my usual reading list but I read a book a >>couple years ago that I liked quite a bit. Unfortunately, I can remember >>neither the title of the book or the name of the author (which is, sadly, >>typical of me). VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >>singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >>found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> >>Can somebody tell me who and what? >> >>Thanks, >>Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:14:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Trying to find a book << VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> Isn't that one of the Native Tongue books? Maybe the 2nd one? Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: book found: Earthsong In-Reply-To: <970922201136_-262852764@emout09.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's _Earthsong_ the third Native Tongue book by Suzette Elgin. fyi, the person asking said this was the title she needed. Heather, imaging the poor woman getting dozens of replies.... *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Nicole Youngman wrote: > << VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that > >singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues > >found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> > > Isn't that one of the Native Tongue books? Maybe the 2nd one? > > Nicole > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:02:27 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: donations to Tiptree on behalf of Judy Merril Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, opening the ole checkbook (R-r-r-h-h-h-h--h) Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > Pat, it seems to be official now that people wanting to remember Judy > Merril can make donations to the Tiptree Award. At least, it says so in > her obit notices. > > -nalo > > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the > small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Nalo in Locus In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Congratulations to Nalo Hopkinson for the very nice story on her work (and photograph) in the latest issue of Locus. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:06:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Nalo in Locus In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Congratulations to Nalo Hopkinson for the very nice story on her work (and >photograph) in the latest issue of Locus. Seconded. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:14:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Nalo in Locus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Tks, Mike. Haven't seen the Locus yet, but I will. -nalo On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Congratulations to Nalo Hopkinson for the very nice story on her work (and > photograph) in the latest issue of Locus. > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Comments: To: Pat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > > > > > When I was 10 there were so few female heroes. Wonder Woman, Cat Woman, > > they were more my style than Mary Poppins! Who else was there? Do you > > remember Poison Ivy -- she was an enemy of Batman who, for at least a > > few issues in the mid-sixties, had her own "short" after the cover story > > in Batman comics. > > > I don't really remember Poison Ivy. But - who else was there? Gloria > Brooks McNye in Heinlein's "Delilah and the Space Rigger", written in > 1946, who got her job under an equal-opportunity law passed in Mundania > in 1964, and proceeded to kick chauvinist ass. Dr Mary Lou Martin in > Heinlein's "Let There Be Light". Both women, I think, were classmates of > MASH's Margaret Houlihan, who I started to really like once she got a > commanding officer she could respect and stopped trying to run the camp > all be herself with that weak reed Frank Burns as her front man. > The best role models around were out of books from the early 1900s > on - Lost and GI Generation women. And don't forget - the latter might > include Edith Bunker and Mom, but it also included Hot Lips, Rosie the > Riveter, and what career women were around until the next wave of > feminism. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu Pat: The sci-fi/fantasy women of my adolescence... do you remember (was it Heinlein's) Podkayne of Mars? also the women in Stranger in a STrange Land? They were "modern" women who, in my memory, were still so defined by their sex/gender roles & their relationships to men. Came no where close to Hot Lips. Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed to powers I could never realistically aspire to. luz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:08:10 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: Mismeasure of a Woman/wage gap discussion I haven't seen any one mention (I've been gone) the globalization of labor/the global economy as major contributing factors to falling wages for laborers all over the world, including women. This phenomenon IS F&SF related, in my mind, as it was envisioned by SF writers before it became fact. luz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:01:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin" Subject: *On* topic -- wage gap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national product, and all the rest. Few science fictions are less credible than this one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- mean the collapse of Western civilization. Suzette Haden Elgin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:23:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Comments: To: Luz Guerra In-Reply-To: <34343498.924@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose > mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her > I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed > to powers I could never realistically aspire to. NH: Bigtime ditto. Have always wanted to be a Bene Gesserit witch. And Herbert made it seem *attainable!* Highly trained minds and power karate kicks too, yeah! -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:27:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to Suzette Elgin's comments: It occurs to me that if you pay homemakers, and count these wages in the GNP, you are therefore paying them to live. Which sounds like a wonderfully utopic situation, and fairly fantastical. The reason housekeepers and nannies and maids etc. get paid is that the wealthier folks who can afford them are paying for the privilege of not having to live like everyone else. The focus of our attention should not be on _money_, but on subsistence (since that is what we use money to obtain). Every human being is involved in obtaining subsistence through hir personal effort. The homemaker does it at home, the day-laborer does it out of the home. The homemaker provides hir own subsistence through hir efforts at home, the day-laborer simply has hir subsistence provided through the intermediary of money. Why should the homemaker get double subsistence? I dunno, because I'm certainly very far from being an economist. I do think that the amount of work American society demands of some of its working population is excessive for the pay they get, and that this creates horrible burdens on those who must both work and maintain the basics of the home. But that's a slightly different problem than the above, it seems to me. Wonderingly yours, Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:13:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970923093348.11b73368@kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:27 AM 9/23/97 -0400, Heather MacLean wrote: >The focus of our attention should not be on _money_, but on subsistence >(since that is what we use money to obtain). Every human being is involved >in obtaining subsistence through hir personal effort. The homemaker does it >at home, the day-laborer does it out of the home. The homemaker provides hir >own subsistence through hir efforts at home, the day-laborer simply has hir >subsistence provided through the intermediary of money. Why should the >homemaker get double subsistence? Eh? The only people who obtain sustenance at home are farmers or homesteaders. There are very few of those in the United States these days. And even they can only obtain SOME of the things they need in this way -- for the rest they must trade, either via barter or the use of money. The archetypal 50s-style homeworker obtains all her sustenance from the wage earner of the household. In economic terms she is the dependent, and since she produces no food and cannot buy with her own money, she is in a position of diminished power in relation to the wage earner. In a fair number of cases, the woman ends up being, in effect, the prisoner of the wage earner. The pay-for-homemakers idea is an attempt to reduce or eliminate this disparity in power. I haven't given much thought to whether it would work or what the obstacles are, but I agree with Suzette that it would be a great theme for a science fiction novel. (Of course, there are a number of science fictional works which postulate a world or worlds entirely without money. But I wonder how we can get there from here.) -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead - OK Computer "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: Trying to find a book Comments: cc: mfulton@U.WASHINGTON.EDU In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970922160412.0099b1c0@tigger.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Definitely the third volume of the _Native Tongue_ triolgy. Elgin, Suzette Haden, _Earthsong: Native Tongue III_ (New York: Daw, 1994). Howard >>Hi. Sci fi is a bit outside my usual reading list but I read a book a >>couple years ago that I liked quite a bit. Unfortunately, I can remember >>neither the title of the book or the name of the author (which is, sadly, >>typical of me). VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >>singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >>found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> >>Can somebody tell me who and what? >> >>Thanks, >>Margaret Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services Montreal, Quebec, Canada alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. The time I can think of this coming up in science fiction (although in a far future setting) was in one of Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat Books (not sure which one, I'm at work right now, and books are home). The planetary society in question pretty much valued all work, whether at home or outside as having a tangible value associated with it. A stay at home spouse making dinner for the outside worker, the worker at the factory, the child doing their chores all recieved "money" for their work. In the story, paying your spouse for cooking dinner didn't imply a lack or love or any sort of thing like that, but rather it was simply a transaction for services rendered. Overall, the society was regarded as a prosperous one, I recall. Was it U. Chicago where this sort of research was going on? I seem to recall one of their Nobel Prize winners working on the question of family and economic values, but it's a fuzzy memory. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:45:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A really interesting sf book that looked at the concept of a "housewife/mother" wage was Zoe Fairbairns BENEFITS. Fairbairns is a British socialist/feminist who has also done work in the peace movement. My review of BENEFITS from the feminist-sf web pages is: "Fairbairns' Benefits traces a future history of women in Britain. Concentrating on government influence over women's fertility, this novel portrays an all-too-possible dystopia. Particularly striking were Fairbairns' dissection early in the novel (p. 38) of double-speak phrases like "the fight against inflation" and "giving parents a free hand," phrases that ring all too familiarly to us in 1996. All in all, a neat book -- well-written, well-thought-out, and depressing as hell. An interesting spin on the same sorts of ideas as in Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale; and in fact, there were actual references to the Biblical handmaid. This in a work published six years prior to The Handmaid's Tale. -- lq, 6/21/96. " On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:01:26 -0500 > From: George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] *On* topic -- wage gap > > I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This > country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction > fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor > that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, > while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and > "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes > part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national > product, and all the rest. Few science fictions are less credible than this > one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. > > Suzette Haden Elgin > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:59:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: *On* topic (probably not on topic anymore =) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:13 AM 9/23/97 -0400, Janice Dawley wrote: >Eh? The only people who obtain sustenance at home are farmers or >homesteaders. There are very few of those in the United States these days. >And even they can only obtain SOME of the things they need in this way -- >for the rest they must trade, either via barter or the use of money. > The archetypal 50s-style homeworker obtains all her sustenance from >the wage earner of the household. In economic terms she is the dependent, >and since she produces no food and cannot buy with her own money, she is in >a position of diminished power in relation to the wage earner. In a fair >number of cases, the woman ends up being, in effect, the prisoner of the >wage earner. The pay-for-homemakers idea is an attempt to reduce or >eliminate this disparity in power. I haven't given much thought to whether >it would work or what the obstacles are, but I agree with Suzette that it >would be a great theme for a science fiction novel. (Of course, there are a >number of science fictional works which postulate a world or worlds >entirely without money. But I wonder how we can get there from here.) > Well, I didn't use the term sustenance for a reason--there are different means of subsistence, some of which, exactly, are barter (home child care, baking, errand-running, etc.). There are other elements, such as the raising of children (future providers of subsistence), and facilitating (to use a nice term) the primary subsistence provider's existence. In any case, the latter function can also be seen in terms of barter. Certainly if I ever have children and get to stay at home to raise them during their early years, I will be so extraordinarily grateful to not have to work that I'll even do the windows. =) And I will expect my partner to provide my sustenance for the most part: that will be my salary. Not to mention the benefits I expect (perhaps idealistically and certainly egotistically) for my children from having so much time with them. In that sense, these homemakers are getting paid. Some of them may even garden, and provide a little sustenance too. I'm not sure the 50s model is appropriate anymore, definitely for the US, probably for all of the first and second worlds, perhaps for most of the third world as well (these countries have other problems, but not so much the notion of the hostage-homemaker of a privileged economic class [presumably female]). Indeed, the young couples who choose to have one partner stay at home, in the present, are making deliberate privilege choices: this is a status symbol, that they can afford to do this. People who cannot find work are obviously in another category. No? Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:56:20 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Mary Poppins and SF In-Reply-To: <970919143339_-330665864@emout05.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Jeanine Pedersen wrote: > > Try buying Mary Poppins in a book store these days. Last Christmas I tried > buying it for one of my nieces. I tried Borders, Barnes & Noble, Crown & > several local stores in Chicago -- Women & Children First & Barbara's -- I > was told the same by all of them. They don't carry it, it isn't popular & > they could try special ordering it from the publisher but that it could take > 6 - 12 weeks. That's disgusting! Have you tried the used bookstores? Classic/OP book searches? Or for that matter, amazon.com?> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:00:58 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Denise Borgen wrote: > current backlash against feminism ( a backlash which may finally be > ending, I hope) > The way I see it is this - feminism as we've known it in this latest wave is getting more and more unpopular and will remain so for a while. That's because it's accomplished much of what it set out to accomplish, and society as a whole would rather shelve the rest, whereas the flaws in our original ideals are starting to show. (today's problems are yesterday's solutions!) If we get into economic difficulties this will become worse and worse, as employers feel free to offer women lower wages and public opinion starts howling that women can and should run back and attach themselves to men, while men have to support women and children. I know - ludicrous in today's world, but still .... On the other hand, if we get into a situation like a major war where we need to draft all hands and the cat to help out, the situation for working women will be excellent, at least until the emergency ends. On the gripping hand, long periods of postwar peace & prosperity like the 50s have always, as far as I can tell, meant a "return to normalcy." Look at me, I'm Sandra Dee.... Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:24:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > >> Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose >> mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her >> I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed >> to powers I could never realistically aspire to. > >NH: Bigtime ditto. Have always wanted to be a Bene Gesserit witch. And >Herbert made it seem *attainable!* Highly trained minds and power karate >kicks too, yeah! > >-nalo > >"There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the >small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other Fremen women--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in practice). -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:17:26 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > > I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This > country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction > fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor > that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, > while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and > "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes > part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national > product, and all the rest. Few science fictions are less credible than this > one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. > > Suzette Haden Elgin > Lois Bujold's ETHAN of ATHOS makes that very poiont. On Athos, an all-male world, the costs of child-rearing are factored into the economy to the point where Ethan dismisses the idea of an army of clones as costing too much to rear to maturity. He's amazed and a bit disgusted when Elli Quinn tells him there are people out there in the wormhole nexus willing to rear children for no pay at all except bare subsistence. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Jill Gillham wrote: > The time I can think of this coming up in science fiction (although in a > far future setting) was in one of Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat > Books (not sure which one, I'm at work right now, and books are home). > The planetary society in question pretty much valued all work, whether at > home or outside as having a tangible value associated with it. A stay at > home spouse making dinner for the outside worker, the worker at the > factory, the child doing their chores all received "money" for their work. > In the story, paying your spouse for cooking dinner didn't imply a lack or > love or any sort of thing like that, but rather it was simply a > transaction for services rendered. Overall, the society was regarded as a > prosperous one, I recall. Hmm. I think I remember the one you are talking about however I might be wrong. I remember it a bit differently. This was a utopia. Definitely a utopia. Everyone got paid for the TIME that they worked, essentially on an effort basis? With increasing technology, this meant less and less work for more and more stuff. Most people worked a few hours a week (2-4 or something). The society was also completely non-violent and very loosely connected to the materialistic world because, get this, no one really owned anything. essentially, everything was rented/communal or something. When "bad people" came and made trouble the people would just leave, including the people serving the food and drinks. (SPOILER) It turned out that the whole thing was possible because of a great big AI computer system that kept track of everything in a fair and equitable manner and essentially (i think) kept humanity from slipping down the slippery slope into greed, cheating, and beurocracy (however that word is spelled). I liked it alot. It seemed on the same level of reality as herland, but I liked that too. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:31:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady > Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother > Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very > powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other Fremen > women--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in practice). And yet... I did not see it as very feminist. Perhaps better than some but, (I am about to try to remember details, forgive my mistakes) There were two ancient schools, Bene Geserit and the other one that handled interstellar travel. women => language, men => math. women => natural, men => self-chosen mutated freaks. Women less power than men. Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's "gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. The universe at large: Women fundamentally different than men. Especially in the mystical parts of the Bene Geserit psychic stuff. Women can't go to the place that the man can (though Paul is the only male Bene Geserit). So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is better than much, but I think there is better still. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:56:31 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stefanie Jenssen Subject: introduction, recommendation, Butler, bloodchild Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everybody, I'm new to this list - and I am really glad I found it. My name is Stefanie Jenssen, I am interested in fsf - although I only started to read science fiction four years ago. I have been a mother for two weeks now and still recovering from landing on this new planet. I like best works dealing with the complicated topic of human-human, human-alien relationships. In that respect I read a great collection lately: "Off Limits, Tales of Alien Sex", ed. by Ellen Datlow, Ace Books, New York 1997. In my opinion, Octavia Butler is one of the great "masters" when it comes to describing relationships. "Kindred" is one of my favourites, and the short story "Bloodchild" reveals her talent for disturbing her readers. She maintains that "Bloodchild" is a love story, while "Kindred" is not. I have difficulties not seeing the humans in "Bloodchild" as absolutely dependent and enslaved by the Tlic. All in all, when rereading, I always find it disturbing, although I can see Butler point about a possible partnership between the alien and the human. But love? If you want to read "Bloodchild" on the web, you can find it here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/bloodchi.htm I am looking forward to listening and talking on this list. Stefanie *IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98* Stefanie Jenssen Co-chair at Intercontact 98 The Norwegian Science Fiction Convention GoHs: Pat Cadigan and Gwyneth Jones *IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:25:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > And yet... I did not see it as very feminist. NH: No, not very. But I do remember women scientists (specifically among the Bene Gesserit) and women guards. The Fremen culture was quite sexist, you're right. Polygyny but no polyandry, women basically chattel. Same for the royal houses. Those last two at least felt deliberately written that way, as did the Tleilaxu culture, which hated women. The Dune novels comprised a complex agglomeration of cultures, some of which were more progressive than others, but all of which were imperfect. I didn't mean to imply that _Dune_ was a particularly feminist book (didn't feel anti-feminist, just not written from a feminist place). But I think we were talking about taking our role models where we could best find them, and I found even the slimiest of the Bene Gesserit wonderfully appealing. I do remember being quite turned off at a point in, I think, _God-Emperor of Dune,_ where there was a pretty homophobic statement. Damn, of course I can't remember what it was, and I'm at work. Something about sgl (same-gender loving) people having some kind of brain defect. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: [snip] > imperfect. I didn't mean to imply that _Dune_ was a particularly > feminist book (didn't feel anti-feminist, just not written from a > feminist place). But I think we were talking about taking our role > models where we could best find them, and I found even the slimiest of > the Bene Gesserit wonderfully appealing. I aggree. Sexist but not anti-feminist. Possibly even better than that given certain readings, but I hesitate to go there. Practically all of the societies (except possibly internal Bene Geserit) were very sexist. About the role-model thing. Do people really identify with their sex so much? I tend to find my role models where the author intended regardless of sex. Of course I am not starved for role-models of my sex. Perhaps what we really need is sufficient role-models of both sexes for everyone. That is one reason I like to read feminist/queer fiction, so that I can feel like/identify with/"become" as many different types of people as possible. On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? I could not help wanting to be Paul because he was the real main character and had all of the powers/strengths of his mother and more besides (other than the ability to give birth though that was not stressed at all. Paul was the ultimate Bene Geserit and he could not be a woman because women were unable to reach his level. One more thing about the Bene Geserit, weren't they only able to deal with the water of life at least in part because they sort of transferred the ability from one to the next while Paul dealt with it without help? -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? >I could not help wanting to be Paul because he was the real main character >and had all of the powers/strengths of his mother and more besides (other >than the ability to give birth though that was not stressed at all. Paul >was the ultimate Bene Geserit and he could not be a woman because women >were unable to reach his level. > >One more thing about the Bene Geserit, weren't they only able to deal with >the water of life at least in part because they sort of transferred the >ability from one to the next while Paul dealt with it without help? > >-- Joel VanLaven I'd much rather be his mother. Paul had wayyy too much pressure on him and by the end of his life, practically every move he made was interpreted to have some religious significance. I could imagine some sect developing on something as small as Paul picking his nose in public, theorizing as to why he did it and going nutty from there. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:24:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her >husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably >messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. Uh-uh--women fought, too. Also, it was more that Paul took responsibility for the man's family than that he won the wife. It's more like this: you kill a Fremen brother, you don't get off scot-free--you take responsibility for his family so they're not left so high and dry. > >Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political >pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's >"gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. > What about the Fish Speakers? (mighta been in later books) > >So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power >given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is >better than much, but I think there is better still. > >-- Joel VanLaven Not here. I saw them as pretty much eqpal, but in different ways. There wasn't much of a prohibition on women doing security, being soldiers or mentats. There was, though, a sort of prohibition on men being in the B.G. Sisterhood, but even that isn't very sexist, interpreting the term loosely. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:12:50 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: *On* topic -- homemakers As I recall, there was an interesting take on this topic in Lois McMaster Bujold's 'Ethan of Athos' which posited an all-male society (with ectogenetic births) in which--I thought plausibly and unlike most sf/fantasy all-male societies--nurturance was valued both economically (in terms of valuable 'social credit' points rather than hard cash, as I recollect) and socially--since a society could hardly survive and perpetuate itself successfully without it. The eponymous hero found it hard to understand the situation in dualled-sex social systems. The book, though fairly light, and perhaps best defined as a 'caper', seemed to me to have thought through this background detail with more intelligence and imagination than most who have devoted large thick serious society-building novels to single gender societies. Lesley Hall Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com PS have there been some problems with the server? my weekend messages got bounced ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:16:04 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) >On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > >> Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose >> mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her >> I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed >> to powers I could never realistically aspire to. > >NH: Bigtime ditto. Have always wanted to be a Bene Gesserit witch. And >Herbert made it seem *attainable!* Highly trained minds and power karate >kicks too, yeah! > >-nalo > >"There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the >small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt >Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady >Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother >Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very >powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other >Fremenwomen--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in >practice). >-Sean But the Messiah-figure was still male! (and had 'natural' ?godgiven powers, unlike Jessica's which had had to be worked for, trained at) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:31:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Bloodchild In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > In my opinion, Octavia Butler is one of the great "masters" when it comes > to describing relationships. "Kindred" is one of my favourites, and the > short story "Bloodchild" reveals her talent for disturbing her readers. Yes, I just went to the site you recommended (great site, by the way) and read "Bloodchild." It was indeed disturbing, and certainly thought-provoking if one tries to consider it a love story. I see the same ambiguity here as is in the Xenogenesis Trilogy. There too, the alien beings are in a dominant position vis-a-vis the humans. And yet, there is a sense, not only of submission, from the humans, but also, I think, a lovte of the Oankali for certain human characters. And certainly, I think, for the reader, there is a sense of sympathizing with the Oankali characters in trying to save/change those pesky humans. Because the Bloodchild story is less developed (being a short story) the reader doesn't get as much of a perspective from the Tlin point of view. Therefore, it is easy to see the humans in the story being used merely as useful pets (or breeders)... I'm with you, Stefanie, in having trouble seeing the love immediately, but given the complexity of the quite-similar situation in the Xenogenesis trilogy, I see the possibility. Anyone interested in talking about the Trilogy? Cheers, pam Pamela Bedore Simon Fraser University Burnaby, BC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I will introduce myself before answering this since it is my first post. My name is Stacey, I'm 32 and I am a stay at home mom and I home-school my daughter, Alia (can anyone guess where I got this name?). I have loved science fiction and fantasy ever since I got my hands on my first Andre Norton book (*Iron Cage* and it is still on my bookshelf) when I was about 12. On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This > country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction > fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor > that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, > while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and > "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes > part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national > product, and all the rest. First, housekeepers, maids and nannies are working for other people who can afford to pay for their services. They don't work for their employers 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Their services are limited (a maid probably wouldn't change diapers but a nanny would, a nanny probably wouldn't prepare a menu for a dinner party but a housekeeeper would). > Few science fictions are less credible than > this > one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. I'm not sure that I would want to use my tax dollar to allow people to stay home and clean house (or do you know some other way of paying home-makers?). I don't even want to imagine the abuses that would inevitably occur if people were paid to stay home. My husband and I made the decision that I would stay home and care for our daughter. No one really benefits from this choice except our family. No one else benefits from my clean floor, clean laundry, washed dishes etc. except my family. Why should anyone else pay for a choice that my family made? Living on one income is difficult but having me home with our daughter is worth the sacrifices. > Suzette Haden Elgin > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:14:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > > About the role-model thing. Do people really identify with their sex so > much? NH: Yeah, sometimes. Though mind you, I also identified with Marvel Comics' Thor...'nuff said. Being a woman is only one facet of my identity, and it's less of a problem nowadays finding affirming images of women, but when you see yourself reflected so little in the outside world, it's healing when you do find those images. I've spoken before on this listserve about how much of a kick I got out of a Black, mouthy, be-dreadlocked, eccentric woman as the lead (Whoopi Goldberg) in Jumping Jack Flash. > > On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? NH: :) Thank you for this question. I immediately answered, "Jessica," then had to figure out why. I think it's because she determinedly carved out a life for herself, despite whole worlds of people trying to tell her what to do, and she *lived.* Paul's character was attractive, because he had all those powers that made him even a super-being; all man, and even more woman than the women, but ultimately, he wasn't able to maintain human connections. He became a larger-than-life figure who spawned an intergalactic jihad, and when he couldn't deal any longer, he turned hermit. Jessica kept dealing, kept her human connections. Joel, answering this question told me a lot about what's important to me. "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Bloodchild In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would love to hear people talk about Butler's works. One of the reasons I signed on here was to find out more about her--I read somewhere that one of here books or series is utopian, and as far as I know she is the only woman of color I have come across who writes fem Utopian stuff. However, I didn't have the time this summer to read everything of heres. I did read WILD SEED, which I really liked, and would like to hear about her other stuff. rudy ~~~~~hmmmm. does my lack of a .sig indicate something profound about my personality? or does it rather reflect a deeper truth?~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:44:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Hi, Stacey. Welcome. On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Stacey Holbrook wrote: > > My husband and I made the decision that I would stay home and care for our > daughter. No one really benefits from this choice except our family. No > one else benefits from my clean floor, clean laundry, washed dishes etc. > except my family. Why should anyone else pay for a choice that my family > made? NH: Because there is an economic benefit to society for the work you do in maintaining a home. If I had someone to do my homemaking for me for free, not only would I have more hours to spend at work or writing, I wouldn't have to pay for the care I was receiving. The decision that you have made is not only to be home with your daughter (obviously that has far more value to you than the purely economic, but it's still another societal saving, because otherwise, somebody else would have to be paid to look after her and socialize her into being a participating member of society); it's also a decision to do for free the basic work that allows a society to function. Without the daily slog work of cooking and cleaning, we'd fall apart. Certainly my apartment's on the verge of it. My office, like so many other places, has had to downsize. One of the ways they did so was to get rid of some 'support' positions, i.e. the people who did the filing, the mailing, the phone calls, the data entry, updating and maintaining records; the housecleaning, in effect. I now have to spend a third more of my day doing that very necessary and important work. If the 'support' positions in an office have a very real economic value (and realise that I only keep talking about money because it's the way in which our society barters and exchanges one service for another), why shouldn't the 'support' positions in a household? Especially those that involve caring for growing humans? Maybe we can talk about a different medium of exchange than money, but I can't get away from the conclusion that however you pay or don't pay for it, the work has real economic and societal value. I'm gonna bring this back to sf, and speak on a bit of a tangent. My novel that's coming out next summer is my first, and I was learning about novel-writing as I did it. I started with a setup of a young woman with an unplanned-for baby living at home with her grandmother. And the story stuck there, until I asked myself the question, "How do these women support themselves?" Once I started inventing answers to that question, the world of the novel began to flesh out, in some exciting ways. Then I went to the Clarion workshop, where Chip Delany pointed out that a story will always feel slightly unreal if your main characters have no visible means of support. Ding! A light went on in my head. That really works for me, and now I almost always try to figure out the economics that allow my protagonists (whatever their gender) to exist, even though the specific details don't always make their way into the story. I read some of Chip's non-fiction, and discovered that he'd come up with this when he himself was trying to figure out some of the reasons why female characters in some of the novels he was reading seemed thinly drawn. He realised that often the writer had omitted to anchor the character in the economics of her world. Chip explains it much better than I do, but it really struck a chord with me. -nalo > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:41:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: administrativia & list info Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm reposting the subscription & basic list information. I've revised it slightly, to include some more guidelines for how to behave on a list. (good manners & netiquette) - i welcome comments & feedback on this. i think we probably all share the goal of keeping the list quality high and enjoyable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Welcome to Feminist SF/Fantasy & Utopia ! List Purpose, Guidelines & Instructions Welcome to FeministSF - a list for fans, writers, activists and scholars to discuss feminist science fiction. Your list owner is Laura Quilter (lquilter@igc.apc.org) (and Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu for emergencies). To unsubscribe, mail a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe feministsf If you have any problems contact the list-owner. For more information about Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopian literature, please check out the femsf web pages at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/ -------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THE FEMINIST SF, FANTASY & UTOPIA LISTSERVE Interested in talking to other people about the works of Ursula Le Guin, Marge Piercy, Suzy McKee Charnas, Elisabeth Vonarburg, Joanna Russ, Octavia Butler and many others? Want to find out more about these authors, and other writers like them? The Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopia ListServe is a space for discussion of this literature. It is a mailing list, which means that every email will go to all subscribers mailboxes. It is a primarily unmoderated list, which means that I will not be selecting or censoring comments. People can ask whatever questions they want about the topic, with one broad exception. Because I have been on many listserves relating to feminism which have inspired anti-feminists to harass other members, or engage the entire listserve in discussions about the nature, purpose, etc., of feminism, I wish to make it clear from the outset that this listserve is for discussion of the literature. Discussion of feminism as a philosophy belong on a feminist discussion group. Discussion of feminism, as it pertains to literature or particular works of literature, is perfectly appropriate. I will remove people from the listserve who behave in an inappropriate manner after one warning. General Guidelines for ListServe Behavior: * Don't "flame" other people - be considerate & polite * If you have something to say, say it! Other people are interested in your opinion -- that's why they joined a discussion list. * Conversely, if you don't have anything to say, don't say it. On a moderate-to-heavy traffic listserve, it is not helpful to send postings saying "I agree" or "yeah!" 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This list began 3/2/97. -------------------------------------------------- Subscribing and Unsubscribing Use the online subscription request to subscribe only or send a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: subscribe feministsf Your Name or unsubscribe feministsf Conversing with Fellow Participants To send a note to the discussion list and all its participants: send a message to: feministsf@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: Whatever your message is -------------------------------------------------- Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you subscribe to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you will find the necessary instructions below. 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All commands must be sent to the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. It is very important to understand the difference between the two, but fortunately it is not complicated. The LISTSERV address is like a FAX number that connects you to a machine, whereas the list address is like a normal voice line connecting you to a person. If you make a mistake and dial the FAX number when you wanted to talk to someone on the phone, you will quickly realize that you used the wrong number and call again. No harm will have been done. If on the other hand you accidentally make your FAX call someone's voice line, the person receiving the call will be inconvenienced, especially if your FAX then re-dials every 5 minutes. The fact that most people will eventually connect the FAX machine to the voice line to allow the FAX to go through and make the calls stop does not mean that you should continue to send FAXes to the voice number. People would just get mad at you. 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More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. - updated 3/12/97 lq, revised 9/23/97 lq ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:55:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Mary Poppins and SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those who were discouraged by trying to get Mary Poppins: Classic titles, especially Children's, but other types as well, often go through periods of low availability when they are about to be repackaged. A whole mess of the Mary Poppins books are in the front of the (er, I wasn't paying close enough attention) Harper? children's catalog for the Winter list. This will mean a renewed push in the stores. For the record, I was in the group that found Mary Poppins rather stern and scary, even with cake crumbs turning cartwheels on her hat brim. Maybe it was her denial of all the fantastic stuff that gave such a negative impression. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: patricia johnston Subject: Island, (Marta Randall) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, Have just finished reading Island (Marta Randall). Must say I did not understand the book. Perhaps it should not be understood, just pondered on. If anyone has read the book, could you offer your views? Thanks. Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: gilchris@virtu.sar.usf.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandra Gilchrist Organization: New College Subject: all male societies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of books that we might consider would be welcome. Thanks in advance. Sandra Gilchrist New College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >But the Messiah-figure was still male! (and had 'natural' ?godgiven powers, >unlike Jessica's which had had to be worked for, trained at) >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Even so, Paul had to work to develop these powers or he never would have known what to do with them. Jessica taught him what to do with them, a natural role for a mother, I should think. Would it have been more equal if the Messiah-figure were female? Or would that just be a shift in power, not a balance? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:40:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Bloodchild In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970923181423.006b8050@mailbox.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I would love to hear people talk about Butler's works. One of the reasons >I signed on here was to find out more about her--I read somewhere that one >of here books or series is utopian, and as far as I know she is the only >woman of color I have come across who writes fem Utopian stuff. However, I >didn't have the time this summer to read everything of heres. I did read >WILD SEED, which I really liked, and would like to hear about her other stuff. >rudy > >~~~~~hmmmm. does my lack of a .sig indicate something > profound about my personality? or does it > rather reflect a deeper truth?~~~~~~~~ I think Butler'd love to hear about this. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, emrah goker wrote: > > I totally agree with everything you say. Yet what I wanted to draw > attention to was what we, as citizens of the Turkish Republic, witnessed: > In most of the provinces of Turkey, a woman older than 13 cannot have a > walk out freely, if she has some *bold* clothing. Furthermore, that a > woman can work is like obsceneity to an average Muslim man. Because, woman > is _weak_, she has Allah-given domestic responsibilities. Sounds a lot like my home country Tajikistan. Except that: 1) Women there work (a strange result of interaction between Muslim-dominant culture and 70 years as a part of a Communist country). 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a cop. Except that you can sue a cop). If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I would f. you go-o-od! and so on). It can happen any time you go somewhere alone. Any time you get out of your home, to be precise. And that's during peaceful times. If you are lucky to get a civil war going in your country, things really go to the extreme. Because there is nothing that a 20 year old guy with an AK-47 feel he's not entitled to. If you are a woman, you have to deal with it every day,no matter what you think about it. Most of people just don't think about it, taking it as part of being a woman, along with a smaller size of meal or menstrual cramps. Anyway, there is a way to deal with it. It took me about 19 years, but I figured it out. First, you should never get mad and never get scared. And act as confident as you can. So, when a nut on the street walks up to you asking whether you'd go with him, you just have to look him in the eye and calmly say "No". I still don't understand why it happens, but it always does -- the guy would look away, with an expression like he suddenly remembered he forgot his keys in his car, and quietly dissappears. If he has an AK-47 or simply is wearing that green-and-brown military stuff, however, then it's more complicated. You'd have to act very nice, and talk to him for a while, ignoring the propositions by acting like you are too clueless to understand what he's talking about. If you get to the point when he actually asks you whether you are married, you should not lie if you don't have a ring, but telling him that you are going to get married pretty soon would usually work. But better yet, pay attention while going anywhere, and if you see a militiaman, or several of them, 20 feet around your course, go to the opposite side of the street. If you did not manage to avoid it, God help you. You can still survive, if you have enough nerve and can lie assertively. Like a friend of mine once surrounded by two patrolmen (who were supposed to protect the streets, by the way) got away by telling them that her father was the head of the city police. The guys knew she was bluffing, but there was no way they could know for sure. And if they actually raped the daughter of the police chief, they can very well go and kill themselves, because otherwise they would very likely have to regret they were ever born. So, if you have a bigger man with a gun, or act like you do, you have a chance. This is just a little bit of "The Rules of Survival for Females in My Country" I could write a book about. Sorry for going off-subject again. It's just Emrah's posting invoked some sentimental memories. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: <199709190933.TAA10106@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Nimal Jayawardhana wrote: > The testacles need to > remain away from the body during hot times lest the sperm die from > overheating. I guess when diving pressure and cold are big issues so being > sheltered inside a warm body is a good place for testacles. > > Salutes, |\| | |\/| ~8>P (nfjayawa@darwin.ntu.edu.au) > I've heard that if a guy puts his testacles in a glass with very warm water for and hour, he'll be infertile for three days. This was mentioned a a means of birth control, and I did not take it seriously. Could that be true, or is it the same as douching with Coke? Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:29:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > >I've heard that if a guy puts his testacles in a glass with very warm >water for and hour, he'll be infertile for three days. This was mentioned >a a means of birth control, and I did not take it seriously. Could that >be true, or is it the same as douching with Coke? > >Marina Interesting idea, testicle as tea bag. Not something I'd pursue personally, but I bet it'd make for some very interesting-tasting tea (yech :-/). -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:43:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: Re: all male societies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a >student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate >forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies >solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all >male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is >in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of >books that we might consider would be welcome. > >Thanks in advance. > >Sandra Gilchrist >New College Well, this isn't about an all male society, but it isn't about an all female one either... Thre's a typically striking short story by James Tiptree Jr. about the social attitudes consequent on haploid reproduction in human beings. One of Tiptree's distinctions is that she wrote about reproduction as a biological function, rather than (conventionally) as a sociosexual one. Unfortunately I can't remember the title of that story and my Tiptree books are not at hand. Does this ring a bell, anybody? -- Susan Armstrong anariska@mortimer.com Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady > > Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother > > Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very > > powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other Fremen > > women--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in practice). > > And yet... I did not see it as very feminist. Perhaps better than > some but, (I am about to try to remember details, forgive my mistakes) > > There were two ancient schools, Bene Geserit and the other one that > handled interstellar travel. women => language, men => math. women => > natural, men => self-chosen mutated freaks. Women less power than men. > > Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her > husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably > messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. > > Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political > pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's > "gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. > > The universe at large: Women fundamentally different than men. > Especially in the mystical parts of the Bene Geserit psychic stuff. Women > can't go to the place that the man can (though Paul is the only male Bene > Geserit). > > So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power > given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is > better than much, but I think there is better still. > > -- Joel VanLaven > I agree with Joel (who seems to have a fabulous memory to me). I remember Jessica saying something to Chani like "they call us concubines now but history, history will call us wives". That is women are only valauable insofar as they are legitimate adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. Jessica also channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all that repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just desiring to be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). In terms of being a feminist organisation, the Bene Gesserit don't cut it: they distribute their members to whatever royal family seems likely to produce the mystical male figure, regardless of any personal horrors they cause.So we have women as sites of reproduction, and pawns becuase of it, yet again. And their power is achieved through traditional methods like feminine wiles). And the "Kawitz Haderach" (?) has the power to see into both male and female pasts: a male can subsume the female, but the opposite is just not possible. Sounds very familiar to me. Women are not powerless in Dune, but I don't think that having a woman with power is neccesarily the real criteria that should be used to measure feminism (I drag out the Margaret Thatcher example yet again). HOW that power is used is more vital. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:48:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Joel? A response to this one? Sean's right that women in most Dune societies could fight, could be scientists, but I agree with you; most of the cultures seemed basically sexist, only I can't formulate concrete arguments about it this pre-coffee morning. As I recall, though, the Fish Speakers were not an independent sect. They were subordinate to the men, sort of trained fighting machines, the way I've heard King Shaka Zulu's army of women described. -nalo On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her > >husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably > >messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. > > Uh-uh--women fought, too. > Also, it was more that Paul took responsibility for the man's family than > that he won the wife. It's more like this: you kill a Fremen brother, you > don't get off scot-free--you take responsibility for his family so they're > not left so high and dry. > > > > >Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political > >pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's > >"gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. > > > What about the Fish Speakers? (mighta been in later books) > > > > > >So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power > >given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is > >better than much, but I think there is better still. > > > >-- Joel VanLaven > > Not here. I saw them as pretty much eqpal, but in different ways. There > wasn't much of a prohibition on women doing security, being soldiers or > mentats. There was, though, a sort of prohibition on men being in the B.G. > Sisterhood, but even that isn't very sexist, interpreting the term loosely. > > -Sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:56:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Jesus. On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter > how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the > street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, > beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k > off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he > will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to > a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a > lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is > bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a > cop. Except that you can sue a cop). > > If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would > not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also > disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you > until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, > where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I > would f. you go-o-od! and so on). > > It can happen any time you go somewhere alone. Any time you get out of > your home, to be precise. And that's during peaceful times. If you are > lucky to get a civil war going in your country, things really go to the > extreme. Because there is nothing that a 20 year old guy with an AK-47 > feel he's not entitled to. If you are a woman, you have to deal with it > every day,no matter what you think about it. Most of people just don't > think about it, taking it as part of being a woman, along with a smaller > size of meal or menstrual cramps. > > Anyway, there is a way to deal with it. It took me about 19 years, but I > figured it out. First, you should never get mad and never get scared. And > act as confident as you can. So, when a nut on the street walks up to you > asking whether you'd go with him, you just have to look him in the eye > and calmly say "No". I still don't understand why it happens, but it > always does -- the guy would look away, with an expression like he suddenly > remembered he forgot his keys in his car, and quietly dissappears. > > If he has an AK-47 or simply is wearing that green-and-brown military > stuff, however, then it's more complicated. You'd have to act very nice, > and talk to him for a while, ignoring the propositions by acting like you > are too clueless to understand what he's talking about. If you get to the > point when he actually asks you whether you are married, you should not > lie if you don't have a ring, but telling him that you are going to get > married pretty soon would usually work. But better yet, pay attention > while going anywhere, and if you see a militiaman, or several of them, 20 > feet around your course, go to the opposite side of the street. If you > did not manage to avoid it, God help you. You can still survive, if you > have enough nerve and can lie assertively. Like a friend of mine once > surrounded by two patrolmen (who were supposed to protect the streets, by > the way) got away by telling them that her father was the head of the > city police. The guys knew she was bluffing, but there was no way they > could know for sure. And if they actually raped the daughter of the > police chief, they can very well go and kill themselves, because > otherwise they would very likely have to regret they were ever born. So, > if you have a bigger man with a gun, or act like you do, you have a chance. > > This is just a little bit of "The Rules of Survival for Females in My > Country" I could write a book about. Sorry for going off-subject again. > It's just Emrah's posting invoked some sentimental memories. > > Marina > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > happens to be selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:03:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > Interesting idea, testicle as tea bag. Not something I'd pursue > personally, but I bet it'd make for some very interesting-tasting tea > (yech :-/). NH: Yech? YMMV, obviously. :) (Couldn't let that one pass.) -nalo > > -Sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:13:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: economics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >>where Chip Delany pointed out that a story will always feel slightly unreal if your main characters have no visible means of support. Ding! A light went on in my head. That really works for me, and now I almost always try to figure out the economics that allow my protagonists (whatever their gender) to exist, even though the specific details don't always make their way into the story. Yes, yes, yes!! As an editor (assistant, anyway), I read so many manuscripts and published books, in both the fantasy and SF genres, where the writer came up with a lovely original conceit , but could only come up with a world where no one or no society could support themselves. It drives me bonkers! One of the current World Fantasy Award nominees is in this category. I'm not saying that every short story or even every novel has to go into exhaustive detail about economics, but if you're going to postulate a world where it is winter all the time, I'm going to wonder what people eat! Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > > > > > About the role-model thing. Do people really identify with their sex so > > much? > > NH: Yeah, sometimes. Though mind you, I also identified with Marvel > Comics' Thor...'nuff said. Being a woman is only one facet of my > identity, and it's less of a problem nowadays finding > affirming images of women, but when you see yourself reflected so little > in the outside world, it's healing when you do find those images. I've > spoken before on this listserve about how much of a kick I got out of a > Black, mouthy, be-dreadlocked, eccentric woman as the lead (Whoopi Goldberg) > in Jumping Jack Flash. But shouldn't everyone get that same kick? regardless of their actual physical configuration? Subversive, attitude correcting, slap-me awake casting choices are some of my favorites. (though I like to believe that I AM awake and it is the others who need to be woken up.. :) Do you root for an oppressed person because they are oppressed, or because you share one of their oppression-inducing traits? And if it is because they are oppressed, is it because you were/are oppressed (or something similar, like you attended junior high school and weren't completely normal)? Or, is it a deep-seeded social upbringing of love of the outsider, the "little guy", and so on (however slanted normal society is towards only seeing white hetero-sexual men as said underdogs) I think I can see all three in myself. > > On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? > > NH: :) Thank you for this question. I immediately answered, "Jessica," > then had to figure out why. I think it's because she determinedly carved > out a life for herself, despite whole worlds of people trying to tell her > what to do, and she *lived.* Paul's character was attractive, because he > had all those powers that made him even a super-being; all man, and even > more woman than the women, but ultimately, he wasn't able to maintain human > connections. He became a larger-than-life figure who spawned an > intergalactic jihad, and when he couldn't deal any longer, he turned > hermit. Jessica kept dealing, kept her human connections. Joel, > answering this question told me a lot about what's important to me. Since I didn't read anything with the Jihad (I think. The war was on Dune and seemed done), Paul was still well-connected, and so on, perhaps I have a very different view of the characters. We must be talking about two completely different stories. Mine ended at the end of Dune (I started the next one but the story from Dune had crystallized into a whole that was final and I couldn't shatter it (which the next book seemed to want to do)) In my world the other Dune books are taked onto and modify the story while in yours, I only saw a piece of the story. (I think) -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:08:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> -- Joel VanLaven >> > >I agree with Joel (who seems to have a fabulous memory to me). I remember >Jessica saying something to Chani like "they call us concubines now but >history, history will call us wives". That is women are only valauable >insofar >as they are legitimate adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. Be careful of saying "only" in this context, since that's not the case. Otherwise all the B.G.s would be adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. In terms of being a >feminist organisation, the Bene >Gesserit don't cut it: Who said they were? they distribute their members to whatever royal >family seems likely to produce the mystical male figure, regardless of any >personal horrors they cause. So we have women as sites >of reproduction, and pawns becuase of it, yet again. And their power is >achieved through traditional methods >like feminine wiles). And the "Kawitz Haderach" (?) has the power >to see into both male and female pasts: a male can subsume the female, >but the opposite is just not possible. And who wanted the Kwisatz Haderach in the first place? This genetic manipulation was a plan of the Bene Gesserits. The women who were sites of reproduction knew this and agreed to it. Look what happened to Jessica when she deviated from what the Reverend Mothers wanted: she got bitched out big-time. Simply-put, the B.G. were seeking power and, according to the prophecy, that power would come in the form of a man who could "go where we cannot". What the B.G. wanted to do was control that man, and they came very close to doing so. You can say it's sexist that the B.G. couldn't control that man, but neither could the Tleilaxu or the Harkonnens or the Emperor or the Fremen or the Mentats. Heck, even the Guild couldn't control him. The only ones that had some measure of control over Paul, and that only in that he would listen to them, were Chani and, perhaps, Jessica. Sounds very familiar to me. Women >are not powerless in Dune, but I don't think that having a woman with >power is neccesarily the real criteria that should be used to >measure feminism (I drag out the Margaret Thatcher example yet again). >HOW that power is used is more vital. > Seconded. >Tanya. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:11:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jessica also >channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- >sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about >Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all that >repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just desiring to >be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). Isn't that what mothers do in their mother context: make sure their kids, male or female, do better than they? As for Irulan, I felt pretty bad for her, too. She, I can say honestly, was a true pawn, but I still don't see that as sexist, just sad for her. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: jpassick@voyager.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jpassick Organization: Gateway 2000 Subject: Quit sending mail to me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please stop sending your posts to me. I'm not interested in your topics and the volume of crap you keep sending me is flooding my e-mail server. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: jpassick@voyager.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jpassick Organization: Gateway 2000 Subject: Stop sending mail to me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please quit sending your posts to me. You are flooding my e-mail server. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Joel? A response to this one? Sean's right that women in most Dune >societies could fight, could be scientists, but I agree with you; most of >the cultures seemed basically sexist, only I can't formulate concrete >arguments about it this pre-coffee morning. > >As I recall, though, the Fish Speakers were not an independent sect. >They were subordinate to the men, sort of trained fighting machines, the >way I've heard King Shaka Zulu's army of women described. > >-nalo > >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >> >Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her >> >husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably >> >messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. >> >> Uh-uh--women fought, too. >> Also, it was more that Paul took responsibility for the man's family than >> that he won the wife. It's more like this: you kill a Fremen brother, you >> don't get off scot-free--you take responsibility for his family so they're >> not left so high and dry. >> >> > >> >Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political >> >pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's >> >"gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. >> > >> What about the Fish Speakers? (mighta been in later books) >> >> >> > >> >So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power >> >given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is >> >better than much, but I think there is better still. >> > >> >-- Joel VanLaven Nalo, Here's from the _Dune Encyclopedia_ (copyright 1984 by Dr. Willis E. McNeely, from Berkley Books): "The first step leading to the establishment of the Fish Speakers as a military force came in the regency of Alia. In 10210, Alia brought about the dissolution of the Fedaykin by various legal strategems, and within a year or two afterwards, Paul's elite force no longer existed as a military organization. The Fedaykin were never a very large group, consisting of perhaps 50,000 men at its maximum, but their effectiveness was all out of proportion to their numbers. They provided the spearhead of many campaigns and furnished an experienced cadre around which later battle groups were formed. By disbanding them, Alia sought to forestall the possibility of a military hero's winning popular support and challenging the rule she exercised through her priesthood and civil bureaucracy. The harvest of her labor was reaped by Leto II." So they were started by a woman and not under women then, but after Alia was gone, Leto II took over and then, yes, they were under male control. -Sean (ask me most anything about Dune and I can come up w/an answer, or find one in the Encyclopedia--I love it!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: jpassick@voyager.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jpassick Organization: Gateway 2000 Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quit sending mail to me. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:30:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Jesus. I would hope He (Jesus) has little, if anything, to do with this, but I basically agree. This is disgusting. -Sean > >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > >> >> 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter >> how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the >> street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, >> beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k >> off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he >> will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to >> a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a >> lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is >> bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a >> cop. Except that you can sue a cop). >> >> If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would >> not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also >> disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you >> until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, >> where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I >> would f. you go-o-od! and so on). >> >> It can happen any time you go somewhere alone. Any time you get out of >> your home, to be precise. And that's during peaceful times. If you are >> lucky to get a civil war going in your country, things really go to the >> extreme. Because there is nothing that a 20 year old guy with an AK-47 >> feel he's not entitled to. If you are a woman, you have to deal with it >> every day,no matter what you think about it. Most of people just don't >> think about it, taking it as part of being a woman, along with a smaller >> size of meal or menstrual cramps. >> >> Anyway, there is a way to deal with it. It took me about 19 years, but I >> figured it out. First, you should never get mad and never get scared. And >> act as confident as you can. So, when a nut on the street walks up to you >> asking whether you'd go with him, you just have to look him in the eye >> and calmly say "No". I still don't understand why it happens, but it >> always does -- the guy would look away, with an expression like he suddenly >> remembered he forgot his keys in his car, and quietly dissappears. >> >> If he has an AK-47 or simply is wearing that green-and-brown military >> stuff, however, then it's more complicated. You'd have to act very nice, >> and talk to him for a while, ignoring the propositions by acting like you >> are too clueless to understand what he's talking about. If you get to the >> point when he actually asks you whether you are married, you should not >> lie if you don't have a ring, but telling him that you are going to get >> married pretty soon would usually work. But better yet, pay attention >> while going anywhere, and if you see a militiaman, or several of them, 20 >> feet around your course, go to the opposite side of the street. If you >> did not manage to avoid it, God help you. You can still survive, if you >> have enough nerve and can lie assertively. Like a friend of mine once >> surrounded by two patrolmen (who were supposed to protect the streets, by >> the way) got away by telling them that her father was the head of the >> city police. The guys knew she was bluffing, but there was no way they >> could know for sure. And if they actually raped the daughter of the >> police chief, they can very well go and kill themselves, because >> otherwise they would very likely have to regret they were ever born. So, >> if you have a bigger man with a gun, or act like you do, you have a chance. >> >> This is just a little bit of "The Rules of Survival for Females in My >> Country" I could write a book about. Sorry for going off-subject again. >> It's just Emrah's posting invoked some sentimental memories. >> >> Marina >> >> >> "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society >> happens to be selling at the time." >> Naomi Wolf >> > >"There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the >small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:27:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >> >> Interesting idea, testicle as tea bag. Not something I'd pursue >> personally, but I bet it'd make for some very interesting-tasting tea >> (yech :-/). > >NH: Yech? YMMV, obviously. :) (Couldn't let that one pass.) > >-nalo > "YMMV"? Duh, I don't get it. <:P -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:53:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary. In other words, your experience/reactions/feelings on this topic may be different than mine. -nalo On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > >> > >> Interesting idea, testicle as tea bag. Not something I'd pursue > >> personally, but I bet it'd make for some very interesting-tasting tea > >> (yech :-/). > > > >NH: Yech? YMMV, obviously. :) (Couldn't let that one pass.) > > > >-nalo > > > "YMMV"? Duh, I don't get it. <:P > > -Sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:03:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Bloodchild Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm.. I don't know if I would classify much of Butler's work as "utopian"; in fact, much of it is dysutopian, with the hope coming from smart and deeply feeling characters who overcome and adapt. If you liked Wild Seed (also one of my favorites) try Mind of my Mind (the first one I ever read); the two seem closely related, as far as her works go. Bonnie Gray ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:13:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) Comments: To: Joel VanLaven In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think I can identify with any character who has traits I'd like to have, or does things I'd like to do, even if only in fantasy. In that way, it doesn't matter their culture, race, gender, species even. But it's also nice to see yourself mirrored. I guess that's part of the popularity of 'everyman' types of characters such as the ones you see a lot in folk tales. They're depicted as average, everyday people who triumph, as opposed to any number of kings, knights or fair ladies. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:14:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > -Sean (ask me most anything about Dune and I can come up w/an answer, or > find one in the Encyclopedia--I love it!) NH: :) Wow. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary. In other words, your >experience/reactions/feelings on this topic may be different than mine. > >-nalo > Ohh. Thanks. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:26:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Bloodchild In-Reply-To: <199709241703.KAA03386@raven.ece.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Hmmm.. I don't know if I would classify much of Butler's work >as "utopian"; in fact, much of it is dysutopian, with the hope >coming from smart and deeply feeling characters who overcome and adapt. True. The word's 'dystopian', tho'. Just a nit I felt I had to pick. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:27:06 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Island, (Marta Randall): possible SPOILER Dear Patricia It's years since I read this, but my take on it (must look at it again sometime) was that by opting for technologically indefinitely extended life, humanity had turned its back on the potential for a kind of spiritual evolution, which was what the protagonist, who was allergic to the treatments, achieved. It's years since I saw anything by Randall: is she still writing SF? I did come across a crime thriller written by her under another name Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:24:14 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: all male societies >Thre's a typically striking short story by James Tiptree Jr. about the >social attitudes consequent on haploid reproduction in human beings. >One of Tiptree's distinctions is that she wrote about reproduction as a >biological function, rather than (conventionally) as a sociosexual one. The story is 'Your Haploid Heart': as I recall, there were alternate generations of gendered and neuter humanoids. The latter were extremely hostile to their begetters/descendants. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:21:31 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) Sean, Not perhaps a reply to your exact question, but Hilary Bailey's 'The Adventures of Hannie Richards' has her bringing out from a war-zone in the face of various opposing interests the new Messiah: who is African and female. But I can't think of many messiah-novels in which the messiah is female (it's only one story in the aforementioned), even by women (maybe Parable of the Sower): perhaps messianism as such is not something women aspire to? or actually find a rather dubious proposition. (Thinking of the forces male messiahs unleash in fiction and fact) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Sean Johnston Sent: 24 September 1997 00:39 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) >But the Messiah-figure was still male! (and had 'natural' ?godgiven powers, >unlike Jessica's which had had to be worked for, trained at) >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Even so, Paul had to work to develop these powers or he never would have known what to do with them. Jessica taught him what to do with them, a natural role for a mother, I should think. Would it have been more equal if the Messiah-figure were female? Or would that just be a shift in power, not a balance? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:09:11 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy >I've heard that if a guy puts his testacles in a glass with very warm >water for and hour, he'll be infertile for three days. This was mentioned >a a means of birth control, and I did not take it seriously. Could that >be true, or is it the same as douching with Coke? I think the water would have to be hot enough to render love-making shortly afterwards a very unlikely event! On the whole, I'd file this under 'urban folklore': there was a novel around in the 60s called 'Here we go round the mulberry bush', in which British schoolboys exchange similar myths about rendering themselves infertile: one was strapping a luminous watch to the testicles on the grounds that the degree of radioactivity involved would do this. However, I believe it is often suggested by infertility specialists when the problem is insufficient nos of sperm in the male partner's semen, that he should abandon tight-fitting underpants and trousers, which overheat the testicles and wear loose ones (the kilt is supposed to be the best garment to promote male fertility). Vonda McInytre has posited in several of her novels 'biocontrol' whereby both men and women can influence their own state of fertility: in the case of men by either lowering or raising the testicular temperature. On douching with coke, I believe that tests demonstrated that 'classic' coke did have significant spermicidal properties (prob its acidity?)--what it does to one's insides i wouldn't like to think. Famous birth-controller Marie Stopes always advised never to put anything into one's vagina that one would not put in one's mouth... Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:32:15 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: economics Re lack of sound economic substructure in fantasy worlds: see Diana Wynne-Jones's hilarious 'The Tough Guide to Fantasy Land', which is also scathing about the non-functional eco-systems Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Debra Euler wrote As an editor (assistant, anyway), I read so many manuscripts and published books, in both the fantasy and SF genres, where the writer came up with a lovely original conceit , but could only come up with a world where no one or no society could support themselves. It drives me bonkers! One of the current World Fantasy Award nominees is in this category. I'm not saying that every short story or even every novel has to go into exhaustive detail about economics, but if you're going to postulate a world where it is winter all the time, I'm going to wonder what people eat! Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:01:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tanya Wood wrote: >> Jessica also >>channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- >>sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about >>Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all that >>repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just desiring to >>be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). Sean Johnston wrote: >Isn't that what mothers do in their mother context: make sure their kids, >male or female, do better than they? As for Irulan, I felt pretty bad for >her, too. She, I can say honestly, was a true pawn, but I still don't see >that as sexist, just sad for her. The point about Jessica being that the "mother context" is the context in which she is placed most often in the books. You have said before, Sean, that a parent's most important priority ought to be his/her children. Frankly, I don't agree. When I was growing up, I never had the impression that I was the cherished center of my parents' existence, but I never felt that they were bad parents because of it. Of course they wanted me to succeed. They supported me economically for the first 15 or so years of my life and were sympathetic and interested when I had things to say. But after all they were simply people, like me, with their own interests and hobbies. Parents like mine are fairly common in fiction -- but primarily as fathers, not mothers. In a book of intrigue such as Dune, it would take a lot of work to imagine what it would have been like if Jessica had been portrayed differently, but it is certainly possible that Frank Herbert could have written the story in a different way. Let me make a very stretched analogy by comparing Dune to A Door Into Ocean. In aDiO, the character of Merwen is portrayed as a builder of consensus, a rallying figure for the Sharers in a time of world-threatening crisis, analogous (stretching...) to Paul Atreides. She is also a mother and source of advice, analogous to Jessica. Two roles in one person! In that book she is not forced to choose between the two. Both are quite important to her, and she seems to act well in both roles. With the many possibilities in mind, my thinking is that even if Jessica could not have been both messiah and mother, she could have had a little more selfhood. Not that I am decrying Dune -- in its paranoid way, I found it interesting and entertaining. I even liked the second book, though I never read any further than that. I was not offended by the portraits of women I found there, but it also seemed that Herbert was not very aware of gender issues. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead - OK Computer "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:14:21 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > But I can't think of many messiah-novels in which the messiah is female (it's > only one story in the aforementioned), even by women (maybe Parable of the > Sower): perhaps messianism as such is not something women aspire to? or > actually find a rather dubious proposition. (Thinking of the forces male > messiahs unleash in fiction and fact) Suzette Haden Elgin's STAR-ANGERED, STAR-ANCHORED has a female Messiah.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:36:42 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: An SF idea Comments: cc: Lois Bujold Fandom , Suzette Haden Elgin , Marietta Sue Dennis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just had a marvelous idea for part of a science fiction story. You have a culture with two forms of address. One is used for adults, especially in a professional context. The other is used for children, dogs, inferiors, and descendants of former slaves. A person - probably a Silent Generation equivalent - is reared hearing the respectful form used to everyone except children like hers - and comes of age in a world where she is constantly addressed by the contemptuous form even in the most professional of circumstances. i.e. "Hablas tu, Pattikins, why do you want to be on the Supreme Court?" For 50 brownie points or more - what is wrong with this *strictly as a Science Fiction* idea? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:06:47 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) Ooops! Perhaps I really meant that the style of female messiahs does tend to differ from that of the male variety (power-sharing etc) Lesley ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Pat Sent: 25 September 1997 00:14 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > But I can't think of many messiah-novels in which the messiah is female (it's > only one story in the aforementioned), even by women (maybe Parable of the > Sower): perhaps messianism as such is not something women aspire to? or > actually find a rather dubious proposition. (Thinking of the forces male > messiahs unleash in fiction and fact) Suzette Haden Elgin's STAR-ANGERED, STAR-ANCHORED has a female Messiah.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: <08431539011614@mortimer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:43 9/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >>I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a >>student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate >>forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies >>solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all >>male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is >>in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of >>books that we might consider would be welcome. >> >>Thanks in advance. >> >>Sandra Gilchrist >>New College > How about _Brave New World_? Not a single-sex society, but pretty patiarchal! Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:08:54 -800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Emily Hackbarth Organization: Hah! Subject: Re: Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Sep 97 at 14:14, Pat wrote: > Suzette Haden Elgin's STAR-ANGERED, STAR-ANCHORED has a female Messiah.> > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu I just finished reading that yesterday. It was the only Elgin book in my local library besides the verbal self-defense books. Boy, if they would just let me be their book-picker for one day! Anyway, I enjoyed it very much Suzette, thanks! Emily Hackbarth emily@exo.com or beadwork.guide@miningco.com The Beadworker http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html Beadwork @ The Mining Company http://beadwork.miningco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:02:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie J Sobstyl Subject: Re: An SF idea In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:36:42 -0900 Pat wrote: > I just had a marvelous idea for part of a science fiction story. You have > a culture with two forms of address. One is used for adults, especially > in a professional context. The other is used for children, dogs, > inferiors, and descendants of former slaves. A person - probably a Silent > Generation equivalent - is reared hearing the respectful form used to > everyone except children like hers - and comes of age in a world where > she is constantly addressed by the contemptuous form even in the most > professional of circumstances. i.e. "Hablas tu, Pattikins, why do you > want to be on the Supreme Court?" > > For 50 brownie points or more - what is wrong with this *strictly as a > Science Fiction* idea? could it be that fiction is supposed to be fictional? Edrie Sobstyl School of Arts and Humanities University of Texas at Dallas P.O. Box 830688 Richardson Tx 75083-0688 (972) 883-2365 (972) 883-2989 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: <08431539011614@mortimer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a >>student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate >>forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies >>solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all >>male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is >>in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of >>books that we might consider would be welcome. >Well, this isn't about an all male society, but it isn't about an all female >one either... > >Thre's a typically striking short story by James Tiptree Jr. about the >social attitudes consequent on haploid reproduction in human beings. One of >Tiptree's distinctions is that she wrote about reproduction as a biological >function, rather than (conventionally) as a sociosexual one. > >Unfortunately I can't remember the title of that story and my Tiptree books >are not at hand. Does this ring a bell, anybody? "Your Haploid Heart"? "Houston, Houston, Do You Read" is another well-known Tiptree with a female-only society. "The Screwfly Solution", by "Racoona Sheldon" deals with a way of getting there (not a happy story!). I recollect, somewhat vaguely, a Cordwainer Smith all-male society in one of his short stories. An entire world of testosterone poisoning. There's Sturgeons's _Venus Plus X_. Not one of his best, but in the list of his truly ground-breaking works ("The Lovebirds"(?), _Some of Your Blood_, "It Wasn't Syzygy"(?)). Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:17:27 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: An SF idea In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >For 50 brownie points or more - what is wrong with this *strictly as a >Science Fiction* idea? Uh......it's not science fiction, but reality? ;-) Laura ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:15:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970924150142.00696c44@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -- in its paranoid way, I >found it interesting and entertaining. I even liked the second book, though >I never read any further than that. I was not offended by the portraits of >women I found there, but it also seemed that Herbert was not very aware of >gender issues. > >-- Janice > Perhaps he wasn't, but consider that this was the early sixties. Were very many people like Frank Herbert very aware of gender issues as we define the term ('aware') today? I think that, were he writing today, you'd be right, but to apply a nineties sensibility (I'm assuming yours is a nineties sensibility) to a thing written in the sixties, and probably from a sixties sensibility, isn't fair to the person who wrote in the sixties. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:41:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:14 9/24/97 -0900, you wrote: >On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > >> But I can't think of many messiah-novels in which the messiah is female (it's >> only one story in the aforementioned), even by women (maybe Parable of the >> Sower): perhaps messianism as such is not something women aspire to? or >> actually find a rather dubious proposition. (Thinking of the forces male >> messiahs unleash in fiction and fact) > > Suzette Haden Elgin's STAR-ANGERED, STAR-ANCHORED has a female Messiah.> > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu > What about James Morrow's ONLY BEGOTTEN DAUGHTER? Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:29:49 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What horrific stories, Marina and Emrah. And Marina, what a clever way to deal with the situation! In the last ten years or so I've lost at least two students in the fifth grade to some kind of mysterious 'visit to an aunt' story. The girls themselves told their teachers that they had to go back to their Arabic countries to get married. They were eleven. While in the U.S. with their families the girls were treated completely differently from their brothers. For example, most children who have birthdays have little cupcake parties with their classes. In these girls' families, the family brought in elaborate cakes for the boys' birthdays but nothing whatsoever for the girls. The girls were not allowed to take gym or learn to swim and were pulled out of school whenever the family needed a babysitter or help with the house. One of the girls missed school one day each week because she had to 'wash her hair'. We never, never understood this. Still can't. (sigh) MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, emrah goker wrote: > > > > > I totally agree with everything you say. Yet what I wanted to draw > > attention to was what we, as citizens of the Turkish Republic, witnessed: > > In most of the provinces of Turkey, a woman older than 13 cannot have a > > walk out freely, if she has some *bold* clothing. Furthermore, that a > > woman can work is like obsceneity to an average Muslim man. Because, woman > > is _weak_, she has Allah-given domestic responsibilities. > > Sounds a lot like my home country Tajikistan. Except that: > > 1) Women there work (a strange result of interaction between Muslim-dominant > culture and 70 years as a part of a Communist country). > > 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter > how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the > street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, > beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k > off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he > will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to > a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a > lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is > bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a > cop. Except that you can sue a cop). > > If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would > not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also > disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you > until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, > where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I > would f. you go-o-od! and so on). > > It can happen any time you go somewhere alone. Any time you get out of > your home, to be precise. And that's during peaceful times. If you are > lucky to get a civil war going in your country, things really go to the > extreme. Because there is nothing that a 20 year old guy with an AK-47 > feel he's not entitled to. If you are a woman, you have to deal with it > every day,no matter what you think about it. Most of people just don't > think about it, taking it as part of being a woman, along with a smaller > size of meal or menstrual cramps. > > Anyway, there is a way to deal with it. It took me about 19 years, but I > figured it out. First, you should never get mad and never get scared. And > act as confident as you can. So, when a nut on the street walks up to you > asking whether you'd go with him, you just have to look him in the eye > and calmly say "No". I still don't understand why it happens, but it > always does -- the guy would look away, with an expression like he suddenly > remembered he forgot his keys in his car, and quietly dissappears. > > If he has an AK-47 or simply is wearing that green-and-brown military > stuff, however, then it's more complicated. You'd have to act very nice, > and talk to him for a while, ignoring the propositions by acting like you > are too clueless to understand what he's talking about. If you get to the > point when he actually asks you whether you are married, you should not > lie if you don't have a ring, but telling him that you are going to get > married pretty soon would usually work. But better yet, pay attention > while going anywhere, and if you see a militiaman, or several of them, 20 > feet around your course, go to the opposite side of the street. If you > did not manage to avoid it, God help you. You can still survive, if you > have enough nerve and can lie assertively. Like a friend of mine once > surrounded by two patrolmen (who were supposed to protect the streets, by > the way) got away by telling them that her father was the head of the > city police. The guys knew she was bluffing, but there was no way they > could know for sure. And if they actually raped the daughter of the > police chief, they can very well go and kill themselves, because > otherwise they would very likely have to regret they were ever born. So, > if you have a bigger man with a gun, or act like you do, you have a chance. > > This is just a little bit of "The Rules of Survival for Females in My > Country" I could write a book about. Sorry for going off-subject again. > It's just Emrah's posting invoked some sentimental memories. > > Marina > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > happens to be selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: How to quit the Feminist listserve w/out being so damned rude listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe feministsf If you have any problems contact the list-owner. For more information about Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopian literature, please check out the femsf web pages at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/ -------------------------------------------------- Comments: To: jpassick@VOYAGER.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jpassick wrote: > > Please stop sending your posts to me. I'm not interested in your > topics and the volume of crap you keep sending me is flooding my e-mail > server. If you'd actually read post topics instead of being so rude you would have found this: To unsubscribe, mail a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe feministsf If you have any problems contact the list-owner. For more information about Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopian literature, please check out the femsf web pages at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/ -------------------------------------------------- Don't sign up for things you don't want to read--and save the damned instructions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:48:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Women in _Dune_ (was Re: Wonder Woman) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:01:42 Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Janice Dawley wrote: >Not that I am decrying Dune -- in its paranoid way, I >found it interesting and entertaining. I even liked the second book, though >I never read any further than that. I was not offended by the portraits of >women I found there, but it also seemed that Herbert was not very aware of >gender issues. At 05:15 PM 9/24/97 -0500, Sean Johnston wrote: >Perhaps he wasn't, but consider that this was the early sixties. Were very >many people like Frank Herbert very aware of gender issues as we define >the term ('aware') today? I think that, were he writing today, you'd be right, >but to apply a nineties sensibility (I'm assuming yours is a nineties >sensibility) to a thing written in the sixties, and probably from a sixties >sensibility, isn't fair to the person who wrote in the sixties. Come now. I believe I was very fair. The United States at the time Herbert wrote Dune had had a long history of feminism of which he was probably aware. I'm not particularly upset that he did not infuse his work with feminism, but neither am I going to turn a blind eye on the grounds that he was kept ignorant by society. There were science fiction authors writing at the time who WERE conscious of gender issues. Samuel Delany's Babel-17 was published one year after Dune. The main character of that novel is a woman named Rydra Wong, a spaceship captain with an extraordinary gift for languages. A smart, strong, competent character -- even a role model. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead, OK Computer; Tricky, Pre-Millennium Tension "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:07:54 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: economics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is really most interesting to me. I'm about 2/3 of the way through an S.F. novel whose theme is an alternative economy to the ones we've seen so far. I didn't realize that focusing on how people earn their money would be of interest. Cool. Lesley Hall wrote: > > Re lack of sound economic substructure in fantasy worlds: see Diana > Wynne-Jones's hilarious 'The Tough Guide to Fantasy Land', which is also > scathing about the non-functional eco-systems > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > > Debra Euler wrote > As an editor (assistant, anyway), I read so many > manuscripts and published books, in both the fantasy and SF genres, > where the writer came up with a lovely original conceit , but could > only come up with a world where no one or no society could support > themselves. It drives me bonkers! One of the current World Fantasy > Award nominees is in this category. I'm not saying that every short > story or even every novel has to go into exhaustive detail about > economics, but if you're going to postulate a world where it is > winter all the time, I'm going to wonder what people eat! > > Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:59:31 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mark Smith Subject: Re: [*SFFU*] On Femininity and SF Content-Type: text/plain Pat For 50 brownie points or more - what is wrong with this *strictly as >a Science Fiction* idea? Check out the "editorial policy" at the Nontraditional News web page. --Mark Click here for Nontraditional News ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:41:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: economics Comments: To: Pat York In-Reply-To: <3429AB5A.6F2@localnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Pat York wrote: > seen so far. I didn't realize that focusing on how people earn their > money would be of interest. Cool. NH: Neither did I, until I read a chapter in Samuel Delany's _Tales of Neveryon_ entitled "The Tale of Old Venn." It was fascinating, and for me was one of those "aha!" moments. I go back and re-read it every so often. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Women in _Dune_ (was Re: Wonder Woman) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970924194827.006bf3ac@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Come now. I believe I was very fair. The United States at the time Herbert >wrote Dune had had a long history of feminism of which he was probably >aware. I'm not particularly upset that he did not infuse his work with >feminism, but neither am I going to turn a blind eye on the grounds that he >was kept ignorant by society. There were science fiction authors writing at >the time who WERE conscious of gender issues. Samuel Delany's Babel-17 was >published one year after Dune. The main character of that novel is a woman >named Rydra Wong, a spaceship captain with an extraordinary gift for >languages. A smart, strong, competent character -- even a role model. > >-- Janice Janice, What I'm saying is that it'd more fair to consider the author's environment, his upbringing. Perhaps Herbert was less concerned with gender issues than Delany. If I were a betting person, I'd lay money on it. Delany writes about it a fair amount, Herbert hardly any that I've seen. Also, Herbert was born 22 years before Delany, which puts him in an entirely different generation, that being the Old School. My dad's from that generation and being from then informs who he is now. He'll say things that aren't offensive to him but are to me and my sisters. They aren't offensive to him because they weren't offensive to people he grew up around. The point is this: consider where the author's coming from and you'll understand him more. Btw., in my opinion, comparing Delany and Herbert is like comparing the clichéd apples and oranges. They're very different people from very different backgrounds. I think parts of _Dune_ are sexist, but not considering where, as far as I know, the author was coming from and I don't think he was anti-feminist (not that I'm trying to put words in your mouth). I think the steps he took toward including women in powerful roles are wonderful for the time. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:43:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: An SF idea Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erm, bad Spanish? And since this already happens in many post-colonial and colonizing cultures... (not bad Spanish, I mean, the "tu" form as a mark of active disrespect to adults by people in power), can't be sf, right? Heather =) At 10:36 AM 9/23/97 -0900, you wrote: >I just had a marvelous idea for part of a science fiction story. You have >a culture with two forms of address. One is used for adults, especially >in a professional context. The other is used for children, dogs, >inferiors, and descendants of former slaves. A person - probably a Silent >Generation equivalent - is reared hearing the respectful form used to >everyone except children like hers - and comes of age in a world where >she is constantly addressed by the contemptuous form even in the most >professional of circumstances. i.e. "Hablas tu, Pattikins, why do you >want to be on the Supreme Court?" > >For 50 brownie points or more - what is wrong with this *strictly as a >Science Fiction* idea? > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu > > hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:38:41 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > > > And yet... I did not see it as very feminist. > > NH: I didn't mean to imply that _Dune_ was a particularly > feminist book (didn't feel anti-feminist, just not written from a > feminist place). But I think we were talking about taking our role > models where we could best find them, and I found even the slimiest of > the Bene Gesserit wonderfully appealing. lg: Yes, I was talking about role models for young women... when I read Dune we were in the midst of the so-called sexual revolution of the late 60s early 70s. I certainly did not yet have a "feminist analysis" -- although I had a feminist gut :). Women in mainstream media at the time were basically sex- objects (Barbarella!!, James Bond's girls) (although Coffy Brown kicked butt) or repackaged traditional wives (Bewitched). Jessica, St. Alia, Chani -- they may have been in a sexist society fulfilling some traditional roles, but they had partnerships with the men in their lives, and they had personal power, and they had inner lives that included their own involvement in their education, evolution, growth. THAT was somethning for a young girl/woman to want to emulate. luz "dear sisters, we know what our job is, let us sow together the subversive seed of unity." lea guido ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel VanLaven wrote: > > About the role-model thing. Do people really identify with their sex so > much? I tend to find my role models where the author intended regardless > of sex. Of course I am not starved for role-models of my sex. Perhaps > what we really need is sufficient role-models of both sexes for everyone. > That is one reason I like to read feminist/queer fiction, so that I can > feel like/identify with/"become" as many different types of people > as possible. lg: I may find role models among both men and women. But remember, we're talking 25-30 years ago. As a 13, 14, 16 year old I was constantly reminded and even forced back into the socially acceptable box for my sex. Harrassed while travelling alone as a girl, I decided to "disguise" myself as a boy to have more freedom. I hitch-hiked (hey, it was a long time ago) from one city to the next and upon arrival my friends/family teased and ridiculed me -- not, interestingly, for wanting to look like a boy -- but for thinking that I could. We didn't use this language then, but basically they were saying I was too femme to pass... to give up the thought of that freedom. Chani, Jessica, Alia, were femme, but were able to "pass" sometimes in a man's world. Identifying with a different gender or sex is one thing in fantasy and fiction, but to survive the "real" world I NEEDED role models who were more like me/more accessible. And yes, I guess I was then starved for role models of my sex. > > On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? > lg: I think I thought back then that power corrupted Paul... for awhile I remember wanting to be Chani (close to the power and favored) and even Alia. I coveted Paul's educational opportunities. As a grown woman/mother now, I would go for Jessica. luz "dear sisters, we know what our job is, let us sow together the subversive seed of unity." lea guido ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:53:58 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > > > On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? > > NH: :) Thank you for this question. I immediately answered, "Jessica," > then had to figure out why. I think it's because she determinedly carved > out a life for herself, despite whole worlds of people trying to tell her > what to do, and she *lived.* Paul's character was attractive, because he > had all those powers that made him even a super-being; all man, and even > more woman than the women, but ultimately, he wasn't able to maintain human > connections. He became a larger-than-life figure who spawned an > intergalactic jihad, and when he couldn't deal any longer, he turned > hermit. Jessica kept dealing, kept her human connections. Joel, > answering this question told me a lot about what's important to me. lg: ditto ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:10:38 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > I think I can identify with any character who has traits I'd like to > have, or does things I'd like to do, even if only in fantasy. In that > way, it doesn't matter their culture, race, gender, species even. > > But it's also nice to see yourself mirrored. I guess that's part of the > popularity of 'everyman' types of characters such as the ones you see a > lot in folk tales. They're depicted as average, everyday people who > triumph, as opposed to any number of kings, knights or fair ladies. > > -nalo > > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the > small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt lg: HIStorically, stories are written about men of power: kings, knights, presidents, hero soldiers, etc. REAding history or scifi in the 60s and 70s I might have thought myself invisible (brown woman/poor/worker). Much literature by women/people of color/working class people began almost necessarily by placing ourselves in the world. Seeking to see ourselves mirrored, or being moved when by chance we Do see ourselves mirrored, is ultimately about wanting to be visible, valid, human. luz "dear sisters, we know what our job is, let us sow together the subversive seed of unity." lea guido ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:26:19 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Women in _Dune_ (was Re: Wonder Woman) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lg: Whew! it was a little daunting to return to over 20 messages re Dune. Thanks for the opportunity to think about the role Dune played in my young life, and how that interacted with my perceptions of society/feminism. luz "dear sisters, we know what our job is, let us sow together the subversive seed of unity." lea guido ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:51:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin" Subject: Dune, Wonder Woman, et al... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been re-reading the postings on this topic, and I am bemused. I am of Frank Herbert's generation, and agree with those who say that for his time he was pretty "liberated." But that's not the issue that strikes me most forcibly. The question of awareness of feminism in the 50s or 60s is much like the question of awareness of feminism in the 90s; if you're talking about intellectuals and academics it has one answer, and if you're talking about the population at large it has quite a different one. What I find so surprising is that I have always thought of Dune as a novel in which Herbert was trying *very* hard -- and in perhaps a sexist fashion -- to champion the powerfulness of women. The Bene Gesserit had such tremendous power; the wives and mothers had such tremendous power... As I read the novel, the men were useful to the Bene Gesserit's plans because they had the semen needed for the breeding, and because they were willing to play the power games in the open that provided cover for what the women were up to behind the scenes. I would have thought that if there was sexism here it was in the form that I am so often accused of myself -- that of portraying the female characters as strong and capable and rational, and portraying all the men as weak and wicked and barely able to find the bathroom alone. Even Paul, it seems to me, is constantly portrayed as dominated by the women; he exists, after all, only because of the rebellion of one strong woman against a group of other strong women. I am clearly not reading the same novel that the rest of you are reading. Suzette Haden Elgin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:20:04 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF Comments: To: Pat York In-Reply-To: <3429A26E.72D4@localnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Marina etc - when I was very young you could point out to a young thug that he wouldn't want his own sister treated that way. Is/was that an option where you came from? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:47:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >I agree with Joel (who seems to have a fabulous memory to me). I remember > >Jessica saying something to Chani like "they call us concubines now but > >history, history will call us wives". That is women are only valauable > >insofar > >as they are legitimate adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. > > Be careful of saying "only" in this context, since that's not the case. > Otherwise all the B.G.s would be adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. I must watch my phrasing more carefully: how about "Chani and Jessica perceive themselves as valuable primarily as partners to men " (and as a mother, in Jessica's case). What is worrying me about Jessica's statement is that it is written as a climax of the female part of the story, with all the weight of truth behind it. If history calls them "wives" then their achievements become defined and legitimised by that role.I think that is what Herbert is trying to achieve with his sexual politics. And I don't like it. > In terms of being a > >feminist organisation, the Bene > >Gesserit don't cut it: > > Who said they were? > A few people seemed to think that because the B.G. are female, and powerful, this means that Herbert is providing strong female characters (true) but he is definitely not endorsing them as any kind of role model. > > they distribute their members to whatever royal > >family seems likely to produce the mystical male figure, regardless of any > >personal horrors they cause. So we have women as sites > >of reproduction, and pawns becuase of it, yet again. And their power is > >achieved through traditional methods > >like feminine wiles). And the "Kawitz Haderach" (?) has the power > >to see into both male and female pasts: a male can subsume the female, > >but the opposite is just not possible. > > And who wanted the Kwisatz Haderach in the first place? This genetic > manipulation was a plan of the Bene Gesserits. True, an interesting play for power in the general patriarchal context. I'm just concerned that it is once again a male figure who has the mystical (God like) power of omnipotence. The women who were sites of > reproduction knew this and agreed to it. Look what happened to Jessica > when she deviated from what the Reverend Mothers wanted: she got bitched > out big-time. Did they really all "agree"? As you point out, Jessica didn't. How much choice did they have, given the B.G. control? Women getting co-opted into the power structures that oppress them is hardly unusual. Simply-put, the B.G. were seeking power and, according to > the prophecy, that power would come in the form of a man who could "go > where we cannot". What the B.G. wanted to do was control that man, and > they came very close to doing so. You can say it's sexist that the B.G. > couldn't control that man, but neither could the Tleilaxu or the Harkonnens > or the Emperor or the Fremen or the Mentats. Heck, even the Guild couldn't > control him. The only ones that had some measure of control over Paul, and > that only in that he would listen to them, were Chani and, perhaps, Jessica. > >I wouldn't argue that the BG's failure is sexist on Herbert's part. I'm not convinced Paul did listen to Jessica and Chani. I'm sure that he refused Jessica's counsel from very early on (his perogative as an individual) perceiving her as a danger to him (which could well have been true). Even if he did listen to them (I can't remember any specific incidences), they would still be merely powers behind the throne. Can you remember any incidents when he listened to Chani and took her advice? There might have been something early on, around the duel scene where he killed the Freman? Nalo? Alia is an interesting character, though. I'm trying to remember her story: she got awakened in the womb, saved Paul from the Emperor's people at the end of the first book, and then what happened? Didn't she become twisted and evil in some tragic way, and die fairly young? With rapidly fading memory synapses, Tanya (sorry this is so long). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:57:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Jessica also > >channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- > >sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about > >Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all that > >repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just desiring to > >be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). > > > Isn't that what mothers do in their mother context: make sure their kids, > male or female, do better than they? Yes, they do. But the end always seems male defined. As for Irulan, I felt pretty bad for > her, too. She, I can say honestly, was a true pawn, but I still don't see > that as sexist, just sad for her. Yes, Irulan is a true pawn, who tries to deal with her situation in the best way she can (and does fairly well too). I too feel sad for her: what I do think is sexist is the implication that her writing is an outlet because she has been deprived a real relationship with Paul. Hence a furfilling heterosexual relationship (with kids included) becomes the natural arena for women, with Irulan's writing as a poor substitute for a real life with a real man. > > -Sean > Tanya (I'm enjoying this discussion by the way) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) Comments: To: luz guerra In-Reply-To: <342AE15E.2736@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, luz guerra wrote: NH: What she said. :) -nalo > > lg: HIStorically, stories are written about men of power: kings, > knights, > presidents, hero soldiers, etc. REAding history or scifi in the 60s and > 70s > I might have thought myself invisible (brown woman/poor/worker). Much > literature by women/people of color/working class people began almost > necessarily by placing ourselves in the world. Seeking to see ourselves > mirrored, or being moved when by chance we Do see ourselves mirrored, is > ultimately about wanting to be visible, valid, human. > > luz > > "dear sisters, we know what our job is, let us sow together the > subversive seed of unity." lea guido > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:32:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gee, the more things change the more they stay the same! (Please pardon cliche.) Writing as a substitute for a "real life" with a husband and children, huh? When I told my 70-something mother of the recent sale of my first novel (I'm 45, director of a State of Maine agency division, happy - successful - and SINGLE BY CHOICE), her response went something like this: "That's nice, dear. But don't worry, someday you'll get married; you still have time. In the meantime, I suppose it's nice if you're subliminating to satisfy your real needs." My, but I'm glad my self-image was formed long before I found out what I'd really have to do to please Mama...who is a retired professional with two graduate degrees, and ought to know better. Nina Osier (author of "Exile's End," soon to be available on diskette from Electra-Lite Books) Tanya Wood wrote: > On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > Jessica also > > >channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- > > > >sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about > > >Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all > that > > >repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just > desiring to > > >be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). > > > > > > Isn't that what mothers do in their mother context: make sure their > kids, > > male or female, do better than they? > Yes, they do. But the end always seems male defined. > > As for Irulan, I felt pretty bad for > > her, too. She, I can say honestly, was a true pawn, but I still > don't see > > that as sexist, just sad for her. > > Yes, Irulan is a true pawn, who tries to deal with her situation in > the > best way she can (and does fairly well too). I too feel sad for her: > what > I do think is sexist is the implication that her writing is an outlet > because she has been deprived a real relationship with Paul. Hence a > furfilling heterosexual relationship (with kids included) becomes the > natural arena for women, with Irulan's writing as a poor substitute > for a > real life with a real man. > > > > > -Sean > > > Tanya (I'm enjoying this discussion by the way) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Dune, Wonder Woman, et al... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I've been re-reading the postings on this topic, and I am bemused. I am of >Frank Herbert's generation, and agree with those who say that for his time >he was pretty "liberated." But that's not the issue that strikes me most >forcibly. The question of awareness of feminism in the 50s or 60s is much >like the question of awareness of feminism in the 90s; if you're talking >about intellectuals and academics it has one answer, and if you're talking >about the population at large it has quite a different one. What I find so >surprising is that I have always thought of Dune as a novel in which >Herbert was trying *very* hard -- and in perhaps a sexist fashion -- to >champion the powerfulness of women. The Bene Gesserit had such tremendous >power; the wives and mothers had such tremendous power... As I read the >novel, the men were useful to the Bene Gesserit's plans because they had >the semen needed for the breeding, and because they were willing to play >the power games in the open that provided cover for what the women were up >to behind the scenes. I would have thought that if there was sexism here it >was in the form that I am so often accused of myself -- that of portraying >the female characters as strong and capable and rational, and portraying >all the men as weak and wicked and barely able to find the bathroom alone. >Even Paul, it seems to me, is constantly portrayed as dominated by the >women; he exists, after all, only because of the rebellion of one strong >woman against a group of other strong women. > >I am clearly not reading the same novel that the rest of you are reading. > >Suzette Haden Elgin Suzette, Thanks for saying clearly what I wanted to say but didn't/couldn't. 0Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:01:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >> Jessica also >> >channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- >> >sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about >> >Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all that >> >repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just desiring to >> >be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). >> >> >> Isn't that what mothers do in their mother context: make sure their kids, >> male or female, do better than they? >Yes, they do. But the end always seems male defined. > Aye, and there's the rub. > As for Irulan, I felt pretty bad for >> her, too. She, I can say honestly, was a true pawn, but I still don't see >> that as sexist, just sad for her. > >Yes, Irulan is a true pawn, who tries to deal with her situation in the >best way she can (and does fairly well too). I too feel sad for her: what >I do think is sexist is the implication that her writing is an outlet >because she has been deprived a real relationship with Paul. Hence a >furfilling heterosexual relationship (with kids included) becomes the >natural arena for women, with Irulan's writing as a poor substitute for a >real life with a real man. > True, but there was no implication that Irulan was a lesbian or bi, and there's nothing wrong with being straight. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:59:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Did they really all "agree"? As you point out, Jessica didn't. How much >choice did they have, given the B.G. control? Women getting co-opted into >the power structures that oppress them is hardly unusual. Look at it this way: You're being interrogated for information. You have sombody holding a gun to your head. They'll shoot you unless you give them the information they want. There's no doubt that they will. You still have a choice whether to give them the information or not. It's not a question of how much of a choice it is, the point is that you always have some kind of choice, even if it's not a very good one. According to Christianity, for example, either you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, get your sins forgiven and go to Heaven or you don't and go to Hell, no matter how nice a person you were. It can appear as not much of a choice, but it's still _a_ choice. > Simply-put, the B.G. were seeking power and, according to >> the prophecy, that power would come in the form of a man who could "go >> where we cannot". What the B.G. wanted to do was control that man, and >> they came very close to doing so. You can say it's sexist that the B.G. >> couldn't control that man, but neither could the Tleilaxu or the Harkonnens >> or the Emperor or the Fremen or the Mentats. Heck, even the Guild couldn't >> control him. The only ones that had some measure of control over Paul, and >> that only in that he would listen to them, were Chani and, perhaps, Jessica. >> >>I wouldn't argue that the BG's failure is sexist on Herbert's part. I'm >not convinced Paul did listen to Jessica and Chani. I'm sure that >he refused Jessica's >counsel from very early on (his perogative as an individual) perceiving >her as a danger to him (which could well have been true). Even if he did >listen to them (I can't remember any specific >incidences), It must be remembered that listening and heeding are two different words. I think Chani and Jessica, even if not heeded, did provide anchors for Paul and had influence, perhaps a measure of control, that way. >they would still be merely powers behind the throne. Many of the B.G. were that way, operating behind the scenes while letting the men think they (the men) were really in power. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:36:51 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: An SF idea In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970924235235.65373ef4@kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Heather MacLean wrote: > > Erm, bad Spanish? And since this already happens in many post-colonial and > colonizing cultures... (not bad Spanish, I mean, the "tu" form as a mark of > active disrespect to adults by people in power), can't be sf, right? > Oh, my Spanish is dreadful and I do know it. 35 years in the Southwest and I can barely recognize a few common words and phrases. I'm studying Conversational Spanish now to try to make up the deficiencies. Come se dice "Yo Anglo, no comprendo *nada* en espanol" en espanol?> > > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews > >mathews@unm.edu > > > > > > > hmaclean@kent.edu > http://kent.edu/~hmaclean > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:29:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: _Courtship Rite_ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" was Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Has anyone else read _Courtship Rite_ by Don Kingsbury? It had the sad distinction of being on the Hugo ballot against Asimov, Clarke and Bradbury, or some such combination. It has a wider array of "social strategies" than anything else I can think of: the society is made up of little craft-clans (for lack of a better word -- it's been a while since I read it), each competing in a kind of social ecology for a good niche. (There's lots more to the story, too!) Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pat asked: >Marina etc - when I was very young you could point out to a young thug >that he wouldn't want his own sister treated that way. Is/was that an >option where you came from? A couple of years ago, there was a rumor (emphasis *RUMOR* -- I don't know if anything was substantiated) that the Iraqi mational police had a special "rape squad." The idea was that they'd rape a woman, and then she'd have to be an informant for whatever they wanted, because if her family ever found out she'd been raped, they'd immediately kill her to protect their honor. Does that address your question? Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:38:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry. Won't waste bandwidth any more. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:26:11 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ Read this years ago--under a different title (UK edition), possibly GETA? Is this the one with group marriages? I remember feeling that the author had created strong and competent female characters but then subjected them to a variety of gothic horrors (imprisonment, torture, giving birth in a charnel-house) which did not happen, in my recollection, to the equally strong and competent male characters. There was also, as I recall, one of those sinister all-female hive type societies... And wasn't one of the main plot drivers succeed or be eaten? Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Neil Rest Sent: 25 September 1997 17:29 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] _Courtship Rite_ was Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Has anyone else read _Courtship Rite_ by Don Kingsbury? It had the sad distinction of being on the Hugo ballot against Asimov, Clarke and Bradbury, or some such combination. It has a wider array of "social strategies" than anything else I can think of: the society is made up of little craft-clans (for lack of a better word -- it's been a while since I read it), each competing in a kind of social ecology for a good niche. (There's lots more to the story, too!) Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:35:06 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Frank Herbert and gender issues (was Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?)) Re Sean's question: Perhaps he wasn't, but consider that this was the early sixties. Were verymany people like Frank Herbert very aware of gender issues as we define the term ('aware') today? I think that, were he writing today, you'd be right, but to apply a nineties sensibility (I'm assuming yours is a nineties sensibility) to a thing written in the sixties, and probably from a sixties sensibility, isn't fair to the person who wrote in the sixties. But there were people writing in the 60s eg Delany (quite apart from any women writers of the time) who were aware of gender issues. So things were stirring in the zeitgeist, even if one doesn't necessarily expect 90s PC attitudes. A thing I find somewhat spooky in Herbert's work is his verging-on-obsession with occult female conspiracies doing their best to run history (this occurs in a non-Dune novel/set of link stories as well--The GodMakers I think)--the point at which I finally gave up on Dune (God Emperor I think) was the one in which not only the Bene Gesserit but another group into tantric-style sex aimed at enslaving/brainwashing powerful males--Holy Matres?--figures. Returning to this after reading Suzette's comment (her novels have given me much enjoyment ever since I read 'For the Sake of Grace' in an anthology and went out looking for anything else by her): I think there's a problem sometimes with the way men depict women as 'really' and often somehow secretly, powerful (Dr Johnson: Nature has given women so much power that the law in its wisdom gives them very little--this may not be an exact quote). It's the sort of power without responsibility or restraints which J S Mill suggested was characteristic of people who had power but not of a kind that was recognised and overt, which can then be taken to imply that power in women's hands is necessarily dark and dangerous. Saying women are powerful in these surreptitious ways is a way of keeping them out of other legitimated and respected kinds of power. On the idea that women really ran everything, I read something recently (cultural studies) pointing out that this was often a theme of 1950s sitcoms--the competent wife deviously helping out her dumb husband (eg the one where the wife was a witch). So perhaps Herbert was picking up on this zeitgeisty theme. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:17:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Carrie A Preston Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970924091944.00741c7c@tezcat.com> from "Neil Rest" at Sep 24, 97 09:19:44 am Content-Type: text/plain > > >>I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a > >>student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate > >>forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies > >>solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all > >>male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is > >>in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of > >>books that we might consider would be welcome. > I recollect, somewhat vaguely, a Cordwainer Smith all-male society in one > of his short stories. An entire world of testosterone poisoning. This is in _The_Best_of_Cordwainer_Smith_. There was an all-male society; I don't remember how they reproduced, just that the, er, attitudes toward homosexuality expressed really bothered me. --Carrie ******************************************************************************* Carrie A. Preston Carrie A. Preston 348 Mason Hall 3626 Cambrey Drive Michigan State University Lansing, MI 48906 East Lansing, MI 48825 (517) 321-0317 (517) 355 2136 presto10@pilot.msu.edu ***************************************************************************** There is water at the bottom of the ocean. --David Byrne ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:21:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Carrie A Preston Subject: Re: Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) In-Reply-To: from "Lesley Hall" at Sep 24, 97 06:21:31 pm Content-Type: text/plain > But I can't think of many messiah-novels in which the messiah is female (it's > only one story in the aforementioned), even by women (maybe Parable of the > Sower): perhaps messianism as such is not something women aspire to? or > actually find a rather dubious proposition. (Thinking of the forces male > messiahs unleash in fiction and fact) Define "messiah." Jane Yolen's fantasy _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and _White Jenna_ had a (somewhat unwilling) female religious/political/war leader figure, though not on nearly such a grand scale as _Dune_ (which I have't read in several years). --Carrie ******************************************************************************* Carrie A. Preston Carrie A. Preston 348 Mason Hall 3626 Cambrey Drive Michigan State University Lansing, MI 48906 East Lansing, MI 48825 (517) 321-0317 (517) 355 2136 presto10@pilot.msu.edu ***************************************************************************** There is water at the bottom of the ocean. --David Byrne ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:47:31 -0500 Reply-To: anderbdm@win.bright.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Dawn L. Anderson" Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Rest wrote: > > was Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) > > Has anyone else read _Courtship Rite_ by Don Kingsbury? It had the sad > distinction of being on the Hugo ballot against Asimov, Clarke and > Bradbury, or some such combination. Neil, I have read Courtship Rite too, and it has also been a long while since I've read it. I thought that it was a very good book, but not in Asimov, Clark or Bradbury's class. Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Frank Herbert and gender issues (was Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?)) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Saying women are powerful in these surreptitious ways is a way of keeping them >out of other legitimated and respected kinds of power. That could be. Hopefully, though, people would mean that, yes, those women are powerful and not read anything else into it like "and that's as powerful as women should get" or "and they're blessed to be that powerful". If I were to read anything into these kinds of statements, I'd hope it could be: yes they're powerful, and it's a start and I recognize that at the same time as I recognize that they're still not 'powerful' enough because they're not considered equal with men's 'power'. >On the idea that women really ran everything, I read something recently >(cultural studies) pointing out that this was often a theme of 1950s >sitcoms--the competent wife deviously helping out her dumb husband (eg the one >where the wife was a witch). So perhaps Herbert was picking up on this >zeitgeisty theme. Possibly, but hasn't the idea of the women having the real, behind-the-scenes power and letting their hubbies _think_ they had the real power been around for centuries? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:16:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF Comments: To: Pat York In-Reply-To: <3429A26E.72D4@localnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Pat York wrote: > What horrific stories, Marina and Emrah. And Marina, what a clever way > to deal with the situation! Thanks, Pat. I wish those things I had learned there worked with Oklahoma fraternity and dorm guys. However, it does not. "Rules of Being a Woman in US" are a lot more complicated and harder to figure out. In my country, it would be enough to pretend to be weaker, less smart, and absolutely not interested in men to make them, if not respect you, then at least leave you alone. Here, whatever you do, it will always be wrong. Marina > > > > > > I totally agree with everything you say. Yet what I wanted to draw > > > attention to was what we, as citizens of the Turkish Republic, witnessed: > > > In most of the provinces of Turkey, a woman older than 13 cannot have a > > > walk out freely, if she has some *bold* clothing. Furthermore, that a > > > woman can work is like obsceneity to an average Muslim man. Because, woman > > > is _weak_, she has Allah-given domestic responsibilities. > > > > Sounds a lot like my home country Tajikistan. Except that: > > > > 1) Women there work (a strange result of interaction between Muslim-dominant > > culture and 70 years as a part of a Communist country). > > > > 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter > > how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the > > street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, > > beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k > > off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he > > will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to > > a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a > > lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is > > bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a > > cop. Except that you can sue a cop). > > > > If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would > > not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also > > disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you > > until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, > > where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I > > would f. you go-o-od! and so on). > > > > It can happen any time you go somewhere alone. Any time you get out of > > your home, to be precise. And that's during peaceful times. If you are > > lucky to get a civil war going in your country, things really go to the > > extreme. Because there is nothing that a 20 year old guy with an AK-47 > > feel he's not entitled to. If you are a woman, you have to deal with it > > every day,no matter what you think about it. Most of people just don't > > think about it, taking it as part of being a woman, along with a smaller > > size of meal or menstrual cramps. > > > > Anyway, there is a way to deal with it. It took me about 19 years, but I > > figured it out. First, you should never get mad and never get scared. And > > act as confident as you can. So, when a nut on the street walks up to you > > asking whether you'd go with him, you just have to look him in the eye > > and calmly say "No". I still don't understand why it happens, but it > > always does -- the guy would look away, with an expression like he suddenly > > remembered he forgot his keys in his car, and quietly dissappears. > > > > If he has an AK-47 or simply is wearing that green-and-brown military > > stuff, however, then it's more complicated. You'd have to act very nice, > > and talk to him for a while, ignoring the propositions by acting like you > > are too clueless to understand what he's talking about. If you get to the > > point when he actually asks you whether you are married, you should not > > lie if you don't have a ring, but telling him that you are going to get > > married pretty soon would usually work. But better yet, pay attention > > while going anywhere, and if you see a militiaman, or several of them, 20 > > feet around your course, go to the opposite side of the street. If you > > did not manage to avoid it, God help you. You can still survive, if you > > have enough nerve and can lie assertively. Like a friend of mine once > > surrounded by two patrolmen (who were supposed to protect the streets, by > > the way) got away by telling them that her father was the head of the > > city police. The guys knew she was bluffing, but there was no way they > > could know for sure. And if they actually raped the daughter of the > > police chief, they can very well go and kill themselves, because > > otherwise they would very likely have to regret they were ever born. So, > > if you have a bigger man with a gun, or act like you do, you have a chance. > > > > This is just a little bit of "The Rules of Survival for Females in My > > Country" I could write a book about. Sorry for going off-subject again. > > It's just Emrah's posting invoked some sentimental memories. > > > > Marina > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > happens to be selling at the time." > > Naomi Wolf > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:58:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Pat wrote: > Marina etc - when I was very young you could point out to a young thug > that he wouldn't want his own sister treated that way. Is/was that an > option where you came from? > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > No, no, no! Sorry, I did not mean to yell. But this is a very common misperception that keeps bewildering me ever since I watched _Thelma and Luise_ about a month after coming to America. I could not believe that Luise, a smart, grown-up woman, would _imagine_ that talking to the rapist about his sister or mother would change his perspective. Especially, while having a gun in her hand. I don't know, maybe all men she had met were nice (which would be strange, since she was a waitress). But normally, this kind of people do not give a damn about their sisters (some of them rape them as well, and not only in the South). And if someone else would actually "do that to his sister", he would shoot the bastard on the sight, instead of preaching to him, and that what Luise should have done. Anyway, it's kind of hard to explain if you did not grow up in a rough environment (at least as a passive observer), but you _never_ try to preach to a person who is trying to hurt you or someone you care about. Because it's a meaningless waste of time. The same as if you are on a plane that is being high-jacked and you think of convincing the terrorist to change his mind because "his family could be here". You are not his family, he might have no family, or totally hate them, or his family could be the exact reason why he's doing it to you. If you ever get in trouble, never, ever, put your survival in dependence of the attacker's morality, beliefs, or whatever else you would think could prevent them from hurting you. Because they know all that and have already made the decision to go ahead with it anyway. You can rely only on what _you_ can do for yourself. Which is either to destroy them before they destroy you, or make them believe that you can, so they'd think it's not worth it. Just never let them know that you are weak or scared, and talking things like "how can you do that, what if it was your sister" is a sign of weakness. Some people, however, try to use the approach you've suggested. The creeps usually find it hilarious. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:57:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Messiahs (was Wonder Woman) In-Reply-To: <199709252121.RAA45260@pilot09.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dan Simmons recent novels Endymion and Endymion Rising feature a female messiah figure who is treated very seriously and in considerable detail. Mike Levy Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:52:36 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ Comments: To: "Dawn L. Anderson" In-Reply-To: <342ADBF3.1CA7@win.bright.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Dawn L. Anderson wrote: > Neil Rest wrote: > > > > was Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) > > > > Has anyone else read _Courtship Rite_ by Don Kingsbury? It had the sad > > distinction of being on the Hugo ballot against Asimov, Clarke and > > Bradbury, or some such combination. > > Neil, > Almost right: the nominees in 1983 were: Foundation's Edge by Isaac Asimov (Doubleday) The Pride of Chanur by C. J. Cherryh (DAW) 2010: Odyssey Two by Arthur C. Clarke (Del Rey) Friday by Robert Heinlein (Holt, Rinehart, and Winston) Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (Timescape) Sword of the Lictor by Gene Wolfe (Timescape) And Asimov won it. Now, admittedly it is a strong year, but in my view the Asimov and the Clarke were the weakest; the Wolfe, Asimov and Clarke are all middle volumes in a series (though I suppose we did not know that of the Clarke at the time), and the Cherryh, Kingsbury and Heinlein are the strongest stand-alone novels. And of the three (though I am a great Cherryh and Heinlein fan), I am not sure that the Kingsbury isn't the best. I wonder if fans had known that FRIDAY was to be Heinlein's last good book, it wouldn't have won on a sympathy vote? And, incidentally, given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists today make of FRIDAY? It's the only one of the six with a female protagonist, I think. Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:48:26 +0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: emrah goker Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970925112541.006d0480@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII First of all, hello to everybody after 8 days of absence. I have been struggling with my server for the last two hours to read all the messages. Some interesting topics have been suggested. But first: On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > A couple of years ago, there was a rumor (emphasis *RUMOR* -- I don't know > if anything was substantiated) that the Iraqi mational police had a special > "rape squad." The idea was that they'd rape a woman, and then she'd have > to be an informant for whatever they wanted, because if her family ever > found out she'd been raped, they'd immediately kill her to protect their > honor. Killing a woman for her honor's (better "namus" in Turkish) protection is not uncommon. However, the RUMOR Neil had heard may not be true. Because: I have quite a many Kurdish socialist friends who have familial relationships with people leaving in Iraq and Syria. One of them had told me the current situation in central Iraq. Of course, it sounded horrific, the word "suffering" gains a different meaning there. However, I was also informed of the false news produced by CIA and MOSSAD agents, just to irritate the West, and prepare the world for another military assault on Iraq. Yes, women (and men) are prosecuted there, yet do not believe everything the Western officials tell you. I mean, one must try to see events from a different perspective. I remind you a newspaper article from an Iran: "Beware of American presidents before general elections. They might start a war." EMRAH ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:50:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > And, incidentally, given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists > today make of FRIDAY? I just re-read FRIDAY this week, and I was thinking about that as I was reading it. My feelings are mixed. Heinlein has strong female characters and in this one particularly, the main character is struggling with proving her self {super-}human as well as struggling against sexism. My wife has suggested in the past that Friday's problems with the society's perceptions of Artificial Persons is, in a sense, the struggle that women face in our society. As with a good bit of his stuff, I find myself discarding a lot of the surface stuff to get to the good parts of the story. For example, he has the statement, "It takes a human mother to bear a human child". And he still has Friday defining her happiness in terms of babies and kittens to a large degree. And then there's the portrayal of Friday as a nymphomaniac (this does not set her apart from a number of his other characters... ;-). I also had a small problem with the fact that Friday had major problems with some human societal rules but seemed to know the "barnyard dance" inside and out (much better than I do or ever did). Anyway, a few semi-random thoughts from someone else who does generally like Heinlein. BTW, the novella(?) GULF (which can be found in _6 x H_) appears to have been a predecessor of FRIDAY that does a bit more with the superman ideas and "the Boss's" organization. It's been a while since I've read that one, though, and don't remember much about it... -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:08:15 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Good news, realtime In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII According to a throwaway paper out of Phoenix, AZ, American women are adopting the little Chinese girl babies who have been left to starve in China's orphanages. The paper, THE ECHO, claims a lot of these women are single women and Lesbian couples. Miraculously, the Chinese government is permitting it instead of playing dog-in-the-manger or yowling about furriners & preverts. This puts them several up on the late unlamented Rumanian regime. ObSF - a story in ANALOG years ago suggested that the vampires of Eastern Europe had instituted their various regimes as a means of ranching their prey rather than depending on the hunt. Kim Newman took up the suggestion later in ANNO DRACULA and BLOODY RED BARON. Romantic it's not. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:14:57 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > Thanks, Pat. I wish those things I had learned there worked with Oklahoma > fraternity and dorm guys. However, it does not. "Rules of Being a Woman > in US" are a lot more complicated and harder to figure out. In my > country, it would be enough to pretend to be weaker, less > smart, and absolutely not interested in men to make them, if not respect > you, then at least leave you alone. Here, whatever you do, it will always be > wrong. > That's Rule #1. Whatever you do, it will always be wrong. Friends who were in the armed forces tell me that if they did, they were whores; if they didn't, they were Lesbians (and witch-hunted out of the service if the accusation stuck.) At least in the old days you could take shelter in the dorm with the housemother and the hostels for young women such as the ones run by the YWCA in the 20s & 30s. Where's MZB's Guildhouses when we need them? I lucked out in one way. I was married in 1964 and divorced in 1988 and came out of my marriage to find out that while I still had female status (i.e. pink-collar jobs), the entire sexual harrassment thing was happening to everybody else. "I'd rather be 50 than catcalled"? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:34:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ et al Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Neil, >> > >Almost right: the nominees in 1983 were: > >Foundation's Edge by Isaac Asimov (Doubleday) >The Pride of Chanur by C. J. Cherryh (DAW) >2010: Odyssey Two by Arthur C. Clarke (Del Rey) >Friday by Robert Heinlein (Holt, Rinehart, and Winston) >Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (Timescape) >Sword of the Lictor by Gene Wolfe (Timescape) > >And Asimov won it. Now, admittedly it is a strong year, but in my view the >Asimov and the Clarke were the weakest; the Wolfe, Asimov and Clarke are >all middle volumes in a series (though I suppose we did not know that of >the Clarke at the time), and the Cherryh, Kingsbury and Heinlein are the >strongest stand-alone novels. And of the three (though I am a great >Cherryh and Heinlein fan), I am not sure that the Kingsbury isn't the >best. > >I wonder if fans had known that FRIDAY was to be Heinlein's last good >book, it wouldn't have won on a sympathy vote? > >And, incidentally, given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists >today make of FRIDAY? It's the only one of the six with a female >protagonist, I think. > >Edward James There is an extensive thread going on my other SF newsgroup (SF-Lit at the LOC) about Heinlein and his wimmin, so I think I'll just comment that Cherryh's book features a male human assimilated into the leonoid Chanur culture, where females are dominant. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:34:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Good news, realtime In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pat wrote: >According to a throwaway paper out of Phoenix, AZ, American women are >adopting the little Chinese girl babies who have been left to starve in >China's orphanages. The paper, THE ECHO, claims a lot of these women are >single women and Lesbian couples. Miraculously, the Chinese government is >permitting it instead of playing dog-in-the-manger or yowling about >furriners & preverts. This puts them several up on the late unlamented >Rumanian regime. More likely, they're just selling them to the rich, eccentric, barbarian American market. They sell organs from convicted criminals, too. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:46:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janice M Bogstad Subject: Re: Good news, realtime Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I just had to comment on this. The throwaway paper is VERY inaccurate. There are many strict rules and regs on who can adopt chinese girl children. In fact, there is a U.S. Webpage that gives advice on who will be successful and who will not - the rules make it almost impossible for a single person to adopt a child at all, and for many married persons to do so. For example, you are not allowed to adopt in most cases if you already have even one child . Here is one webpage address that begins to explan the problems AND has links to the Office of Immigration webpage....Jan Bogstad bogstajm@uwec edu http://www.adoption.com/alliance/china.html At 08:08 9/27/97 -0900, you wrote: >According to a throwaway paper out of Phoenix, AZ, American women are >adopting the little Chinese girl babies who have been left to starve in >China's orphanages. The paper, THE ECHO, claims a lot of these women are >single women and Lesbian couples. Miraculously, the Chinese government is >permitting it instead of playing dog-in-the-manger or yowling about >furriners & preverts. This puts them several up on the late unlamented >Rumanian regime. > >ObSF - a story in ANALOG years ago suggested that the vampires of Eastern >Europe had instituted their various regimes as a means of ranching their >prey rather than depending on the hunt. Kim Newman took up the suggestion >later in ANNO DRACULA and BLOODY RED BARON. Romantic it's not. > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:46:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laur, Erin M." Subject: The Power Question ( was Frank Herbert and gender issues) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Saying women are powerful in these surreptitious ways is a way of keeping >>them >>out of other legitimated and respected kinds of power. > >That could be. Hopefully, though, people would mean that, yes, those women >are powerful and not read anything else into it like "and that's as >powerful as women should get" or "and they're blessed to be that powerful". >If I were to read anything into these kinds of statements, I'd hope it >could be: yes they're powerful, and it's a start and I recognize that at >the same time as I recognize that they're still not 'powerful' enough >because they're not considered equal with men's 'power'. > Another interesting twist on the ways women in power can be portrayed : Sometimes showing women in power situations is still misogynistic in origin. For example, men who have fantasies about dominatrixes (sp?) or nymphomaniacs who "force themselves" on men. These are still powerful women, but the origin of that power comes from men who are letting the women be powerful because it suits their fantasy life, not because it's what the women truly want. Feminist concepts of power are often very different from masculine conceptions of power. Erin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:16:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Transition Series In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Folks, Has anyone read Vonda McIntyre's Transition series? Or perhaps it's called the Starfarer series? I have just finished it and found it a very good read. Anyone interested in discussing it? pam ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:23:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Friday << And, incidentally, given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists today make of FRIDAY? It's the only one of the six with a female protagonist, I think. >> I didn't like it at all. I read it a couple of years ago after a friend suggested it since it had a strong female lead character. Let me see if I remember correctly: she had some sort of father figure she worked for who provided a good chunk of her self-worth, she went through the usual "am-I-really-human" angst; and at the end she was forcibly inseminated, then decided to bear the child anyway, deciding in the process that she was, in fact, human since she could be a mother, and settled down as a colonist and joined the PTA and whatever else. Saved thru childbearing?? Sorry, doesn't make it as feminist IMHO. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:38:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Transition Series << Has anyone read Vonda McIntyre's Transition series? Or perhaps it's called the Starfarer series? I have just finished it and found it a very good read. Anyone interested in discussing it? >> I LOVED these books, for more reasons than I can count at the moment!! ;-) One thing that jumps to mind immediately is the way she portrayed the govt as wanting to use scientific developments for military purposes. It was all too easy to believe we could make 1st contact by setting off a nuclear explosion in our hosts' "backyard". Oops!! I also thoroughly enjoyed the way biology and technology were interlaced--the spaceship having an ecosystem, the organic lungs and the divers, Arachne, etc. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: _Friday_ (was re: _Courtship Rite_) In-Reply-To: <19970926085026.38364@puma.macbsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Allen Briggs wrote: > > > And, incidentally, given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists > > today make of FRIDAY? > > For example, he has the statement, "It takes a human mother to bear a > human child". And he still has Friday defining her happiness in terms > of babies and kittens to a large degree. And then there's the portrayal > of Friday as a nymphomaniac (this does not set her apart from a number > of his other characters... ;-). I also had a small problem with the > fact that Friday had major problems with some human societal rules but > seemed to know the "barnyard dance" inside and out (much better than I do > or ever did). I'll add a few more. I really disagree with the characterization of Friday as a nymphomaniac, which suggests that she is somehow pathological in her use of sexuality. I have real questions with some of Heinlein's portrayals of sexuality, esp. father-daughter sexuality. His characters were often highly sexual and uninhibited (in his later works anyway) -- but I don't think that's the same thing at all as nymphomania or -- what is it, satyriasis? Something we hear of less often. You might all be surprised to learn how often I have had people write to me and suggest Heinlein as a feminist writer. Strong women characters, what many see as a liberatory sexuality, and "especially for his time" are the refrains and reasons. I think it's also interesting to look at what I think of as clear deterministic tendencies in his characterizations of women -- such as the idea that all women love to have babies -- and contrast those with the ways in which he seemed to think of humans as very transformative and actually having fluid gender identities. Lazarus Long switched sexes and so did one of his other characters (another old man). (I hope I'm not misremembering any of this but it's possible.) I enjoyed Heinlein when I was young, and especially FRIDAY. (Where did her name come from, by the way -- Robinson Crusoe allusion or something else?) If I'd read any of his stuff in the past five years, I suspect I would still enjoy it on some levels. To read any literature, one becomes almost inured to problems of perspective (the writer's sexism, racism, etc.) -- aware, critical, but not overly affected. No, that's not right -- it's more true of some types of literature than others. It's true (for me) of Heinlein's work, which is essentially non-realistic adventure stories anyway. But I am much more critical -- to the point of affecting my own enjoyment and appreciation of the work -- of sexism, racism, classism, or a limited perspective of one sort or another in works which are supposed to be "serious" or "realistic." (Realistic in terms of their portrayals of human nature, not in terms of today's society or history or whatever.) So, for instance, I was much more disappointed by the flaws I found in LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS when I read it at 25 as an informed feminist, than the problems I found in FRIDAY from reading it when I was 15 and rereading it again in my early 20s. This relativity can be disconcerting and perhaps it's not quite fair. Opinions? > > Anyway, a few semi-random thoughts from someone else who does generally > like Heinlein. > > BTW, the novella(?) GULF (which can be found in _6 x H_) appears to have > been a predecessor of FRIDAY that does a bit more with the superman > ideas and "the Boss's" organization. It's been a while since I've read > that one, though, and don't remember much about it... > > -allen > > -- > Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:51:48 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:23:13 -0400 Nicole Youngman wrote: > > I didn't like it at all. I read it a couple of years ago after a friend > suggested it since it had a strong female lead character. Let me see if I > remember correctly: she had some sort of father figure she worked for who > provided a good chunk of her self-worth, she went through the usual > "am-I-really-human" angst; and at the end she was forcibly inseminated, then > decided to bear the child anyway, deciding in the process that she was, in > fact, human since she could be a mother, and settled down as a colonist and > joined the PTA and whatever else. > > Saved thru childbearing?? Sorry, doesn't make it as feminist IMHO. > > Nicole Granted, but with Heinlein it is always helpful to remember that his men are also always saved by marriage (in whatever sense) and childrearing. I found Friday very powerful but read it when I was an adolescent. In particular, it shaped my attitude to sex. Reading it now I find myself seeing Friday as an abuse victim (and I think Heinlein makes it clear that she has *been* abused in a number of ways). She uses sex as a weapon because all of her relationships in childhood, and many of her adult relationships have demonstrated to her that she is merely a commodity. As she heals she starts to replace that use of sex with a greater belief in her right to say no (although granted she doesn't use it much). Janet (the woman at the end, I may have her name wrong) reshapes for Friday what relationships are about. It may be soppy or unsatisfactory that Friday resolves her feminity in child bearing, but remember, this is someone who has been denied that right and repeatedly told that she is not human enough to be a mother or a member of a family. Her role as fighter has been forced upon her, in that she is making just as much a feminist choice as a woman who moves in the other direction (and Heinlein has a few of those). Her familial role by the way, is one of protector. She also takes a lot of control of the decisions the men make in the escapes. This may be intended to signal her lessening dependence on men for approval and rescue. Heinlein is deeply flawed but I think he was genuinely interested in what women might do. He did, however, believe that the fundamental role of all human beings (men and women) was to breed. Even higher maths came lower down on his lists of requirements for humanity. Farah Mendlesohn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:10:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <970926142148_1010364064@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Nicole Youngman wrote: > << And, incidentally, given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists > today make of FRIDAY? It's the only one of the six with a female > protagonist, I think. > >> > > I didn't like it at all. I read it a couple of years ago after a friend > suggested it since it had a strong female lead character. Let me see if I > remember correctly: she had some sort of father figure she worked for who > provided a good chunk of her self-worth, she went through the usual > "am-I-really-human" angst; and at the end she was forcibly inseminated, then > decided to bear the child anyway, deciding in the process that she was, in > fact, human since she could be a mother, and settled down as a colonist and > joined the PTA and whatever else. > > Saved thru childbearing?? Sorry, doesn't make it as feminist IMHO. > I'm not really trying to defend _Friday_ but I don't remember the end that way at all. I remember that she is escaping with this group of people as a part of their "extended marriage thingy" and she wants to be a colonist with kids and all but they don't have the equipment to "fix" her so she has to be content to care for other people's children and be a part of the group. It seemed like the end was more of a "Saved by honest, non-technical work, isolation, and a good communal family regardless of who had the children" Much like Candid actually. Can anyone out there back me up or am I confabulating? -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jeanine Pedersen Subject: Re: _Friday_ The book by Heinlein where the old man switched gender was _I will Fear No Evil_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:56:53 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ the nominees in 1983 were: Foundation's Edge by Isaac Asimov (Doubleday) The Pride of Chanur by C. J. Cherryh (DAW) 2010: Odyssey Two by Arthur C. Clarke (Del Rey) Friday by Robert Heinlein (Holt, Rinehart, and Winston) Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (Timescape) Sword of the Lictor by Gene Wolfe (Timescape) [snip] given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists today make of FRIDAY? It's the only one of the six with a female protagonist, I think. Edward James While I have not recently reread Cherryh's Chanur sequence, I seem to recall that the protagonists were Hani (?sp.), felinoid and mostly female, since in their culture females went out and traded and males stayed home and defended their territory. There was a single human male who played a significant part in the action. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:06:39 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: The Power Question ( was Frank Herbert and gender issues) Erin wrote Sometimes showing women in power situations is still misogynistic in origin. For example, men who have fantasies about dominatrixes (sp?) or nymphomaniacs who "force themselves" on men. These are still powerful women, but the origin of that power comes from men who are letting the women be powerful because it suits their fantasy life, not because it's what the women truly want. Feminist concepts of power are often very different from masculine conceptions of power. I couldn't agree more. I don't know if anyone else has ever read or tried to read the classic, indeed, eponymous, masochistic classic Venus in Furs by Leopold von Sacher Masoch, but what it's roughly about is a young man who meets a woman in (I think) an Alpine resort: initially all she wants is a real mutual love affair but he keeps wanting her to dominate him. I suppose it's possible to read her eventual reaction to the situation--becoming a total bitch, tying up the hero and having sex with another man in front of him--as an embittered response to his quirks rather than collusion with them. But it seemed to me in general to illustrate the axiom that the masochist is actually controlling the scenario. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:15:07 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Powerful women (was Frank Herbert and gender issues (was Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?)) Sean suggested Hopefully, though, people would mean that, yes, those women are powerful and not read anything else into it like "and that's as powerful as women should get" or "and they're blessed to be that powerful". If I were to read anything into these kinds of statements, I'd hope itcould be: yes they're powerful, and it's a start and I recognize that at the same time as I recognize that they're still not 'powerful' enough because they're not considered equal with men's 'power'. I was actually trying to get at the way the kind of women's power under discussion is set up as dark and shadowy and sinister, and extremely scary, and that these characteristics--which are presumably those of any group which has means of gaining some access to acknowledged authority by manipulating key individuals (e.g. attitude towards eunuchs at the Byzantine court)--tend to be seen as those of all women in relation to power. Because the power is not open and recognised there are no, or felt to be no, constraints upon it--at least Margaret Thatcher could be voted out. And on the latter topic, there was a little cluster of dystopian matriarchies by British writers coming out around the late 80s, which struck me as perhaps somewhat determined by the political ambience... the ones I particularly remember actually being by female writers. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:26:35 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: Good news, realtime > Pat wrote: > >According to a throwaway paper out of Phoenix, AZ, American women are > >adopting the little Chinese girl babies who have been left to starve in > >China's orphanages. The paper, THE ECHO, claims a lot of these women are > >single women and Lesbian couples. Miraculously, the Chinese government is > >permitting it instead of playing dog-in-the-manger or yowling about > >furriners & preverts. This puts them several up on the late unlamented > >Rumanian regime. > > More likely, they're just selling them to the rich, eccentric, barbarian > American market. They sell organs from convicted criminals, too. > > > Neil Rest > I have no documentation of the adoption policy of either the U.S. or China; However, I am friends with a lesbian couple who adopted two female infants from China. Other lesbians in our community are also looking into this, and from what I understand the wait is only 3 months to one year. Additionally, I know a heterosexual married couple in Alabama who adopted a daughter from China, and their wait was less than six months. I suspect there will never be a shortage of abandoned female infants in China, I am thrilled that these adoptions can actually take place. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:58:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <970926142148_1010364064@emout15.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All I remember about Friday is throwing it across the room. I'd loved Heinlein as a younger woman, but I was a dawning feminist, and by the time I read Time Enough For Love, I was beginning to critique his characterization of women, and it was starting to bug me. Friday was the last straw. Anyone remember a scene in, I think, Time Enough For Love, where a young woman is about to give birth on a spaceship? The main character has her sit in birthing position in her lover's arms, then as she feels what is only her second contraction, he cranks the gravity up to maximum, and the baby 'pops out of her like a watermelon seed.' Which Heinlein described as being a somewhat startling, but to all evidences painless experience. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:03:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: _Friday_ (was re: _Courtship Rite_) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Laura Quilter wrote: > > I enjoyed Heinlein when I was young, and especially FRIDAY. (Where did > her name come from, by the way -- Robinson Crusoe allusion or something > else?) NH: I don't know, but I've wondered too. Robinson Crusoe is all I could think of whenever I read the name, and with my Caribbean background, my warning bells tended to go off. Oh, and also coupled with the association of the Gal Friday, the office gofer. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: The Power Question ( was Frank Herbert and gender issues) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" These are still powerful >women, but the origin of that power comes from men who are letting the >women be powerful because it suits their fantasy life, not because it's >what the women truly want. Feminist concepts of power are often very >different from masculine conceptions of power. > Erin True. Unless it is what the women truly want, and I'm sure there are one or two dominatrixes or nymphomaniacs who enjoy such power. It'd be a turning of the power table, for once. I mustn't neglect to say that I don't think there are very many such people, and that most of their supposed population is made up in men's heads, but to say there are none, I think, is to deny reality. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:33:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Powerful women (was Frank Herbert and gender issues (was Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?)) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sean suggested > > Hopefully, though, people would mean that, yes, those women >are powerful and not read anything else into it like "and that's as >powerful as women should get" or "and they're blessed to be that powerful". If >I were to read anything into these kinds of statements, I'd hope itcould be: >yes they're powerful, and it's a start and I recognize that at >the same time as I recognize that they're still not 'powerful' enough >because they're not considered equal with men's 'power'. > >I was actually trying to get at the way the kind of women's power under >discussion is set up as dark and shadowy and sinister, and extremely scary, >and that these characteristics--which are presumably those of any group which >has means of gaining some access to acknowledged authority by manipulating >key individuals (e.g. attitude towards eunuchs at the Byzantine court)--tend >to be seen as those of all women in relation to power. That the B.G. power is dark and sinister I'll grant, and I'm not sure why Herbert whose women to fill the roles. Maybe they just fit. However, there are still some pretty powerful Fremen women who aren't dark or sinister, just formidable and therefore pretty scary, not just to men but to anybody. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:05:14 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mark Smith Subject: Pronouns in science fiction and reality Content-Type: text/plain In response to Pat's previous posting about pronouns, this the the editorial policy from the Nontraditional Newsweb page. This publication is for, by, and about women, and dedicated to eliminating discrimination. Therefore, as a matter of editorial policy, we have reset our default assumptions from male to female. Traditionally inclusive terms such as "he," "him," and "his," as used herein, refer exclusively to women, both generically and specifically. For example, since our new default assumption is female, if a sentence says, "He is a professor," you can be absolutely certain that he is a woman otherwise the sentence would have to read, "He is a male professor." --Mark ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:12:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Friday << It may be soppy or unsatisfactory that Friday resolves her feminity in child bearing, but remember, this is someone who has been denied that right and repeatedly told that she is not human enough to be a mother or a member of a family. >> Right, but she doesn't go out and get pregnant on her own. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she get inseminated without her knowledge for some sort of smuggling operation? She thought she was carrying something valuable in some sort of internal compartment, then it turns out it's a fetus fathered by some prince or something. So instead of getting mad, she thinks "Hey, now I can have a baby!" and decides to keep it for herself, and ends up playing traditional mom on some new colony. Now, if she had gotten pregnant of her own free will, that would've been different!! Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 16:58 9/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >All I remember about Friday is throwing it across the room. I'd loved >Heinlein as a younger woman, but I was a dawning feminist, and by the >time I read Time Enough For Love, I was beginning to critique his >characterization of women, and it was starting to bug me. Friday was the >last straw. > >Anyone remember a scene in, I think, Time Enough For Love, where a young >woman is about to give birth on a spaceship? The main character has her >sit in birthing position in her lover's arms, then as she feels what is >only her second contraction, he cranks the gravity up to maximum, and the >baby 'pops out of her like a watermelon seed.' Which Heinlein described >as being a somewhat startling, but to all evidences painless experience. > >-nalo > But HE never had a baby. A few weeks ago, my son "delivered" a baby via telephone (he's a 911 operator), and let me listen to the tape. A good deal of the instruction to the grandmother, who was delivering the child (the ambulance arrived about the time the kid let out its first yell) was how to prevent the baby from emerging too quickly and tearing the mother. (Sigh. wish my pediatrician had known that trick....) Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:13:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970926183851.435fd74c@academic.truman.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" >But HE never had a baby. A few weeks ago, my son "delivered" a baby >via telephone (he's a 911 operator), and let me listen to the tape. >A good deal of the instruction to the grandmother, who was delivering >the child (the ambulance arrived about the time the kid let out its >first yell) was how to prevent the baby from emerging too quickly >and tearing the mother. (Sigh. wish my pediatrician had known that >trick....) > >Martha Bartter >Truman State University Martha, EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain thresholds) is true or false? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:54:21 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970926183851.435fd74c@academic.truman.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Martha Bartter wrote: > >only her second contraction, he cranks the gravity up to maximum, and the > >baby 'pops out of her like a watermelon seed.' Which Heinlein described > >as being a somewhat startling, but to all evidences painless experience. > > > >-nalo > > > But HE never had a baby. A few weeks ago, my son "delivered" a baby > via telephone (he's a 911 operator), and let me listen to the tape. > A good deal of the instruction to the grandmother, who was delivering > the child (the ambulance arrived about the time the kid let out its > first yell) was how to prevent the baby from emerging too quickly > and tearing the mother. (Sigh. wish my pediatrician had known that > trick....) NH: And that, presumably, was a woman whose womb was fully dilated. If memory serves, Heinlein's character had only just started having contractions. What an amazing experience for your son! (Probably pretty mind-blowing for the mother, grandmother and baby too, huh?) :) -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:58:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > thresholds) is true or false? NH: I believe it's true, in the same way that the 'men are bigger and stronger than women' thing is true. Don't know if it's linked to childbirth or not. Could be linked to menstrual cramps too, for that matter. If it's linked to anything at all. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:12:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Friday << EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain thresholds) is true or false? >> I've been discussing the use of sports to socialize us into gender roles with my students, and one of them suggested the other day that women wouldn't be able to handle the pain of playing football--injuries etc--since they have a *lower* threshold of pain. I said "well, they seem to make it through childbirth" and got some laughter. It amazes me what they'll say sometimes. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:44:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca DeMarco Subject: Re: all male societies At 01:43 9/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >>I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a >>student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate >>forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies >>solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all >>male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is >>in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of >>books that we might consider would be welcome. >> >>Thanks in advance. >> >>Sandra Gilchrist >>New College > >> There is a pretty interesting story by Tiptree in which men throughout the US kill off women because aliens are somehow drugging them. I can't think of the name of the story off-hand. The aliens want to the kill off the human population. It is not a utopia (no where near it) but it does deal with the relationship between reproduction and population. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:50:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ann Wheeler Subject: Heinlein, and I Will Fear No Evil *I Will Fear No Evil* was the end of Heinlein for me, after many (adolescent) years of reading anything of his that I could find. In *I Will Fear No Evil*, if I'm remembering correctly after so long, the old man doesn't just switch genders. He has his brain transplanted into the body of a woman (I think a woman with whom he was acquainted) who has just died. And his whole personality survives--suggesting it was contained in his brain--as does hers--suggesting it was contained in her body. After the implications of this characterization dawned on me--using that overused metaphor in its full sense of having light slowly emerge out of darkness--I couldn't read Heinlein in the same way, or indeed at all, anymore. Ann Wheeler ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:24:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marilyn Nulman Subject: What do women want? Power? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reading the posts about women in Heinlein and Dune made me think that many people (men?) seem to assume that women in general want the same kinds of power that men usually seem to want, visible power, power over others, power as an end in itself. That they try to get power over others by stealth because they're not strong enough to get it by force. I think of the powerful women in sf and find some who do this, like the women behind the Gate to Women's Country, and others who don't, like the old woman of Remnant Population who only wants to be left alone to cultivate her garden. Must a strong female character always want power? Or do circumstances thrust the need for it upon her? Marilyn Nulman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Dune, Wonder Woman, et al... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:51 AM 9/25/97 -0500, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote, re: Dune: >I would have thought that if there was sexism here it >was in the form that I am so often accused of myself -- that of portraying >the female characters as strong and capable and rational, and portraying >all the men as weak and wicked and barely able to find the bathroom alone. I'm curious, Suzette -- do you have a response to such accusations regarding your own works? And if so, what is it? -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead, OK Computer; Tricky, Pre-Millennium Tension "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Good news, realtime In-Reply-To: <6D8899B5237@calc.vet.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Penelope Gibbs wrote: > > Pat wrote: > > >According to a throwaway paper out of Phoenix, AZ, American women are > > >adopting the little Chinese girl babies who have been left to starve in > > >China's orphanages. The paper, THE ECHO, claims a lot of these women are > > >single women and Lesbian couples. Miraculously, the Chinese government is > > >permitting it instead of playing dog-in-the-manger or yowling about > > >furriners & preverts. This puts them several up on the late unlamented > > >Rumanian regime. > > > > More likely, they're just selling them to the rich, eccentric, barbarian > > American market. They sell organs from convicted criminals, too. > > > > > > Neil Rest Neil, I assume you meant this remark ironically and with no real intent to hurt anyone, but you need to be careful when making pronouncements on a subject as touchy as adoption. Many good and decent people are involved in the entirely legitimate practice of overseas adoption. They live on both sides of the Pacific and are both Asian (Chinese, Korean, Thai, Philippino, etc.) and American. Some do indeed work for the Chinese government. My experience, however, is that, regardless of their politics, the vast majority of these people care very deeply about the fate of the children being put up for adoption. If they didn't care, they'd just leave the babies to die. Most of these people would take strong exception to your remark. > > > I have no documentation of the adoption policy of either the U.S. or > China; However, I am friends with a lesbian couple who > adopted two female infants from China. Other lesbians in our > community are also looking into this, and from what I understand the > wait is only 3 months to one year. Additionally, I know a > heterosexual married couple in Alabama who adopted a daughter from > China, and their wait was less than six months. I suspect there will > never be a shortage of abandoned female infants in China, I am > thrilled that these adoptions can actually take place. > This is wonderful news for anyone involved in overseas adoption. Back in the late 1980s we had to wait 3 years to adopt from Korea and almost weren't accepted as adoptive parents (despite being at least theoretically the ideal adoptive couple--ie. married, in our thirties, with a steady income and good health) because we were of mixed religious background. The largest adoption agency in America, Lutheran Social Services, has even been known to turn down Unitarians for God's sake! If the Chinese are willing to allow adoptions to good lesbian parents they deserve nothing but praise. And if you're wondering how this all connects to feminist science fiction and fantasy, I'd be glad to introduce you to my daughter the alien. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:32:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > > thresholds) is true or false? > > NH: I believe it's true, in the same way that the 'men are bigger and > stronger than women' thing is true. Don't know if it's linked to > childbirth or not. Could be linked to menstrual cramps too, for that > matter. If it's linked to anything at all. > > -nalo > I'm not sure whether or not this is the same topic, but I was recently told by an experienced lab technician that men are four or five times more likely to faint when having blood taken than women are. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:33:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: <970926214346_-1464361702@emout20.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:44 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Rebecca DeMarco wrote: > There is a pretty interesting story by Tiptree in which men throughout >the US kill off women because aliens are somehow drugging them. I can't >think of the name of the story off-hand. The aliens want to the kill off the >human population. It is not a utopia (no where near it) but it does deal >with the relationship between reproduction and population. That would be "The Screwfly Solution", written under the name of Raccoona Sheldon. A thoroughly chilling vision of gender war (though it didn't make scientific sense unless you believe that humans give off and can detect pheromones). -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead, OK Computer; Tricky, Pre-Millennium Tension "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <970926211025_1559599849@emout16.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Nicole Youngman wrote: > << > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > thresholds) is true or false? >> > > I've been discussing the use of sports to socialize us into gender roles with > my students, and one of them suggested the other day that women wouldn't be > able to handle the pain of playing football--injuries etc--since they have a > *lower* threshold of pain. I said "well, they seem to make it through > childbirth" and got some laughter. It amazes me what they'll say sometimes. > > Nicole > Besides there are a number of young women playing football in high schools today, particularly here in Wisconsin, including a couple of what for lack of a better word I will refer to as "linemen." Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970927003340.006d31c4@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 09:44 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Rebecca DeMarco wrote: > >> There is a pretty interesting story by Tiptree in which men throughout >>the US kill off women because aliens are somehow drugging them. I can't >>think of the name of the story off-hand. The aliens want to the kill off the >>human population. It is not a utopia (no where near it) but it does deal >>with the relationship between reproduction and population. > >That would be "The Screwfly Solution", written under the name of Raccoona >Sheldon. A thoroughly chilling vision of gender war (though it didn't make >scientific sense unless you believe that humans give off and can detect >pheromones). Do they? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:47:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: What do women want? Power? In-Reply-To: <199709270424.AAA21784@mail.gwi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Must a strong female character always want power? Or do circumstances >thrust the need for it upon her? > >Marilyn Nulman Marilyn, Nope. In my stuff, the strong female characters usually don't give two hoots for power in the traditional male-oriented version. I try to posit the belief that strength comes not from power but power from strength. Also, there's a difference between strength and power. In my stuff, strength might equal ability to have control of a thing versus control over a thing. Something like that. I'll need to mull it over to get it just right. Anyway, so where's strength come from? Uhh...lemme think about that'un too. Interesting, though, would be other peoples' definitions of strength vs. power. Maybe strength lasts longer? Like a distance runner's strength vs. a sprinter's power? Websters has them as synonyms, but there are subtle differences. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:50:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Nicole Youngman wrote: > >> << >> EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have >> higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain >> thresholds) is true or false? >> >> >> I've been discussing the use of sports to socialize us into gender roles >>with >> my students, and one of them suggested the other day that women wouldn't be >> able to handle the pain of playing football--injuries etc--since they have a >> *lower* threshold of pain. I said "well, they seem to make it through >> childbirth" and got some laughter. It amazes me what they'll say sometimes. >> >> Nicole >> >Besides there are a number of young women playing football in high schools >today, particularly here in Wisconsin, including a couple of what for >lack of a better word I will refer to as "linemen." > >Mike Levy Mike, Really? I think that's great. I remember a girl who wanted to be on the wrestling team in high school. I think she would've done it, but her parents "had a hissy-fit". Like many others, I'd've liked to wrestle her, but I might've not enjoyed it so much if she started kicking my ass. Perhaps she was just ahead of her time. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:03:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: pheromones In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >Sheldon. A thoroughly chilling vision of gender war (though it didn't make > >scientific sense unless you believe that humans give off and can detect > >pheromones). > > Do they? NH: Not with any reliability, if I remember my bio correctly. Seems to be faint and vestigial in us. One of the fascinating theories that Elaine Morgan talked about in "Descent of Woman" was that (and I'm condensing and paraphrasing) human intelligence and self-awareness may have developed to the extent it has in order to compensate for the loss of much biologically determined instinctual behaviour--the loss of instinct having come about through a combination of evolutionary changes. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin" Subject: response to accusations of sexism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:51 AM 9/25/97 -0500, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote, re: Dune: >I would have thought that if there was sexism here it >was in the form that I am so often accused of myself -- that of portraying >the female characters as strong and capable and rational, and portraying >all the men as weak and wicked and barely able to find the bathroom alone. I'm curious, Suzette -- do you have a response to such accusations regarding your own works? And if so, what is it? -- Janice My first response is always to say -- and mean it -- that I apologize for whatever sexism my work contains. I don't think any of us manages to be totally free of elitism of one kind or another, hard as we try, and I am not under the illusion that I'm an exception. Once I get beyond that, there are two things I try to explain. First, that most of the people who make these comments about my work are academics or professionals, usually living privileged lives in quite sophisticated social environments; that goes with the territory. I suggest to them, as gently as I can, that the men and women with whom they themselves are familiar may not be typical of the population at large, and that it's possible that my perceptions are pretty accurate. Where I live, Barbie still rules. Second, that I am a native Ozarker, and that like all Ozark women my age I was taught from infancy that (1) when men do most things well it's an accident, that (2) it's a woman's responsibility to clean up the messes men make and protect men from the consequences of those messes as far as possible, and that (3) it's a woman's responsibility to see to it that men never know about (1) and (2). Now that *is* sexist. Absolutely. It's reverse sexism of the most maternalistic kind -- that is, it is taken for granted that men are doing the very best they can, given their limitations, that it's not their fault that they're as they are, and that whatever change may come about with men is the responsibility of women. There are few things more fierce and cruel than the contempt that Ozark women feel for a woman who "can't cope," but not much is expected of males. (I am stereotyping and over-generalizing, certainly; of course there are exceptions. But this is the prototype.) This had awful effects on my graduate students when I was a linguistics prof; all a male student had to do was stumble through the paces I set, and he would get praise and a decent grade -- but from female students I demanded spectacular work. I am eternally grateful to my female students, who came to me in a group and gave me bloody hell about this until I finally was able to understand what they were talking about and realize that they were absolutely right. I told them then that I counted on them to keep me straight on this -- to let them know whenever I backslid. And they did. The male/female situation that is laid out in my Ozark Trilogy (once you delete the flying mules and the magic and the Aliens) accurately represents the world view I was brought up with. So far as I know, this has not changed. I don't approve of it, but I have no power to change the real-world channels. I apologize for going on at such length. It's hard to do this clearly and briefly at the same time. Suzette ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:45:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Transition Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've read "Starfarers" and "Transition." Has McIntyre written more in this series? I loved it, would be happy to discuss it (on or off the list) and would be delighted if it's been extended with another volume. Nina Osier (mbarron@mint.net) Pamela Bedore wrote: > Hello Folks, > > Has anyone read Vonda McIntyre's Transition series? Or perhaps it's > called the Starfarer series? I have just finished it and found it a > very > good read. Anyone interested in discussing it? > > pam ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970925112949.006d0480@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > Has anyone else read _Courtship Rite_ by Don Kingsbury? It had the sad > distinction of being on the Hugo ballot against Asimov, Clarke and > Bradbury, or some such combination. > > It has a wider array of "social strategies" than anything else I can think > of: the society is made up of little craft-clans (for lack of a better word > -- it's been a while since I read it), each competing in a kind of social > ecology for a good niche. (There's lots more to the story, too!) I liked *Courtship Rite*. It has one of the most unusual and interesting societies I've ever read. I could believe that a society like that could exist. The female characters were not mere props and were active participants in their world. Thanks for reminding me of this book, I'm going to read it again. > Neil Rest > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:42:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Really? I think that's great. I remember a girl who wanted to be on the > wrestling team in high school. I think she would've done it, but her > parents "had a hissy-fit". Like many others, I'd've liked to wrestle her, > but I might've not enjoyed it so much if she started kicking my ass. > Perhaps she was just ahead of her time. It's been at least ten years since the first female hockey player on a boys high school team that I can recall (in Michigan) and the world hasn't come to an end yet. I seem to recall the number of women participating on boys teams at the H.S. level in traditionally male sports is in the low thousands and significantly growing each year. A few years ago, East Kentwood H.S. made the state quarterfinals with a female hockey goalie, and there have been a couple of women who have won wrestling district titles going against the boys. (On a side note, I think that there are wrestling coaches who like having girls on the team because a) they can help fill out the lighter weight classes and b) girls hit puberty earlier so they're more likely to be at the same weight class all four years, which can get you a skill advantage when a lot of the people in a class are underclassmen) On Nadya: ( someone asked about the book) The good: 1. Good primary characters. 2. Good description of the Oregon Trail and it's dangers. The bad: 1. Fairly predictable. (You could easily guess just what was going to happen with Elizabeth) 2. The bad guys were one-dimensional, and fairly stereotypical. I wanted to see more of: 1. The oregon community. It seemed like an interesting place (would fall under the concept of utopia) and from the epilogue, we know that Nadya's decendants survived until the present day, so what happened in the years in between? 2. The two Native American con women. They were having entirely too much fun in life, and really added some spice to the story. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:01:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: _Courtship Rite_ In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Edward James wrote: (snip) > And, incidentally, given that we are on FEMINISTSF, what do feminists > today make of FRIDAY? It's the only one of the six with a female > protagonist, I think. I liked the adventure and the character of Friday but I was very uncomfortable with some of the sexual aspects of the book. Other people have mentioned their reservations about this also. I found the oversexed characters juvenile. Far more troubling was Heinlein's attitude toward Friday's rape. It never seems to really bother her and (SPOILER).... . . (SPOILER) . . . . . . . . she not only forgives one of her rapists but actually has a relationship with him! It was hard for me to believe that rape would be treated so casually and wouldn't have -any- long term effect on Friday. > Edward James > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:26:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: response to accusations of sexism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 07:51 AM 9/25/97 -0500, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote, re: Dune: >>I would have thought that if there was sexism here it >>was in the form that I am so often accused of myself -- that of portraying >>the female characters as strong and capable and rational, and portraying >>all the men as weak and wicked and barely able to find the bathroom alone. > >I'm curious, Suzette -- do you have a response to such accusations >regarding your own works? And if so, what is it? > >-- Janice > > My first response is always to say -- and mean it -- that I >apologize for whatever sexism my work contains. I don't think any of us >manages to be totally free of elitism of one kind or another, hard as we >try, and I am not under the illusion that I'm an exception. Once I get >beyond that, there are two things I try to explain. > > First, that most of the people who make these comments about my >work are academics or professionals, usually living privileged lives in >quite sophisticated social environments; that goes with the territory. I >suggest to them, as gently as I can, that the men and women with whom they >themselves are familiar may not be typical of the population at large, and >that it's possible that my perceptions are pretty accurate. Where I live, >Barbie still rules. > > Second, that I am a native Ozarker, and that like all Ozark women >my age I was taught from infancy that (1) when men do most things well >it's an accident, that (2) it's a woman's responsibility to clean up the >messes men make and protect men from the consequences of those messes as >far as possible, and that (3) it's a woman's responsibility to see to it >that men never know about (1) and (2). Now that *is* sexist. Absolutely. >It's reverse sexism I don't know about "reverse". I mean, sexism's sexism, man against woman, or woman against man, man against man or woman against woman. Still, I get your point and agree. of the most maternalistic kind -- that is, it is taken >for granted that men are doing the very best they can, given their >limitations, that it's not their fault that they're as they are, and that >whatever change may come about with men is the responsibility of women. >There are few things more fierce and cruel than the contempt that Ozark >women feel for a woman who "can't cope," but not much is expected of males. >(I am stereotyping and over-generalizing, certainly; of course there are >exceptions. But this is the prototype.) This had awful effects on my >graduate students when I was a linguistics prof; all a male student had to >do was stumble through the paces I set, and he would get praise and a >decent grade -- but from female students I demanded spectacular work. I am >eternally grateful to my female students, who came to me in a group and >gave me bloody hell about this until I finally was able to understand what >they were talking about and realize that they were absolutely right. I told >them then that I counted on them to keep me straight on this -- to let them >know whenever I backslid. And they did. The male/female situation that is >laid out in my Ozark Trilogy (once you delete the flying mules and the >magic and the Aliens) accurately represents the world view I was brought up >with. So far as I know, this has not changed. I don't approve of it, but I >have no power to change the real-world channels. > > I apologize for going on at such length. It's hard to do this >clearly and briefly at the same time. > > Suzette ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:37:47 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Friday >I'm not sure whether or not this is the same topic, but I was recently >told by an experienced lab technician that men are four or five times >more likely to faint when having blood taken than women are. And I believe that soldiers lined up for vaccination/inoculation before going to areas of endemic disease fall over like flies as the doc comes down the line with the hypodermic. (Again, possibly anecdotal) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:35:08 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: What do women want? Power? >Must a strong female character always want power? Or do >circumstances thrust the need for it upon her? asks Marilyn Nulman Isn't there a difference between power 'to' and power 'over'? one is about having the power for one's own purposes and the other is about having power to push others around. If one doesn't feel that one has much control over one's own destiny, being able to influence/control other people's can be some kind of compensation. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:30:33 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: all male societies > There is a pretty interesting story by Tiptree in which men >throughout the US kill off women because aliens are somehow >drugging them. I can't think of the name of the story off-hand. The >aliens want to the kill off the human population. It is not a utopia (no >where near it) but it does deal with the relationship between >reproduction and population. This is, I think, 'The Screwfly Solution', which first appeared (if I'm not mistaken) under the other pseudonym, Raccoona Sheldon. What was scary about it was the way the 'normal' misogyny of certain religious groups etc segued right into murderous intraspecies violence. There was also some allusion to the use of messing up the reproductive patterns of various agrarian insect pests as a control measure (by humans). Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:57:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: watermelon seeds & Heinlein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:58:59 -0400 > From: Nalo Hopkinson > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Friday > > All I remember about Friday is throwing it across the room. I'd loved > Heinlein as a younger woman, but I was a dawning feminist, and by the > time I read Time Enough For Love, I was beginning to critique his > characterization of women, and it was starting to bug me. Friday was the > last straw. Yes, I read TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE as an adult and didn't really enjoy it. FRIDAY I still have positive feelings for, because it was positive for me as a 15-year-old. A book club I was once told about went back and everyone reread their favorite childhood book and reported back about how they felt as adults about it. It's very interesting to look at how exposure to things as children affects our feelings about them as adults. > Anyone remember a scene in, I think, Time Enough For Love, where a young > woman is about to give birth on a spaceship? The main character has her > sit in birthing position in her lover's arms, then as she feels what is > only her second contraction, he cranks the gravity up to maximum, and the > baby 'pops out of her like a watermelon seed.' Which Heinlein described > as being a somewhat startling, but to all evidences painless experience. i remember the birthing scene (though i couldn't swear which book it was in). i remember heinlein making a point of saying something like it was a man's responsibiliity to support the woman (literally) through childbirth. i don't remember the watermelon seed -- ho ho. i'm not so sure that cranking gravity way up would be good for a new born baby since it seems like the change in pressure might cause its head to explode or something. but it's a funny image and somewhat touching, actually, that the silly old man was trying to make childbirth painless. > > -nalo > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:58:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: What do women want? Power? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Must a strong female character always want power? Or do >circumstances >thrust the need for it upon her? >asks Marilyn Nulman > >Isn't there a difference between power 'to' and power 'over'? one is about >having the power for one's own purposes and the other is about having power to >push others around. If one doesn't feel that one has much control over one's >own destiny, being able to influence/control other people's can be some kind >of compensation. >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Or to be able to have control over anything, like how clean your home/car/room is. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:09:25 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Powerful women (was Frank Herbert and gender issues (was Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sean Johnston wrote: > > >Sean suggested > > > > Hopefully, though, people would mean that, yes, those women > >are powerful and not read anything else into it like "and that's as > >powerful as women should get" or "and they're blessed to be that powerful". If > >I were to read anything into these kinds of statements, I'd hope itcould be: > >yes they're powerful, and it's a start and I recognize that at > >the same time as I recognize that they're still not 'powerful' enough > >because they're not considered equal with men's 'power'. > > > >I was actually trying to get at the way the kind of women's power under > >discussion is set up as dark and shadowy and sinister, and extremely scary, > >and that these characteristics--which are presumably those of any group which > >has means of gaining some access to acknowledged authority by manipulating > >key individuals (e.g. attitude towards eunuchs at the Byzantine court)--tend > >to be seen as those of all women in relation to power. > > That the B.G. power is dark and sinister I'll grant, and I'm not sure why > Herbert whose women to fill the roles. Maybe they just fit. However, > there are still some pretty powerful Fremen women who aren't dark or > sinister, just formidable and therefore pretty scary, not just to men but > to anybody. > > -Sean lg: I've been off-line for a few days... so am trying to pick up here. Wasn't there suggestion that the Bene Gesserit were modeled after the (quite male) Jesuits -- which would give a different twist to the BG power as dark and sinister. The focus being religious colonizers and political manipulators as opposed to female=dark and sinister. ??? luz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:19:29 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sean Johnston wrote: > how to prevent the baby from emerging too quickly > >and tearing the mother. (Sigh. wish my pediatrician had known that > >trick....) > > > >Martha Bartter > >Truman State University > > Martha, > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > thresholds) is true or false? > > -Sean lg: I've always heard this -- and probably have said it myself (being the proud survivor of 2-hours-pushing-no-tears) ('tears' as in 'rips' not as in 'cries'). Cultural mythology or fact? Or cuz we say it it becomes truth? luz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:21:36 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nicole Youngman wrote: > > << > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > thresholds) is true or false? >> > > I've been discussing the use of sports to socialize us into gender roles with > my students, and one of them suggested the other day that women wouldn't be > able to handle the pain of playing football--injuries etc--since they have a > *lower* threshold of pain. I said "well, they seem to make it through > childbirth" and got some laughter. It amazes me what they'll say sometimes. > > Nicole lg: I have NEVER heard that women have a lower pain threshold -- maybe that's another one of those cultural things... or might it be generational? luz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:31:06 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > > > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > > > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > > > thresholds) is true or false? > > > > NH: I believe it's true, in the same way that the 'men are bigger and > > stronger than women' thing is true. Don't know if it's linked to > > childbirth or not. Could be linked to menstrual cramps too, for that > > matter. If it's linked to anything at all. > > > > -nalo > > > I'm not sure whether or not this is the same topic, but I was recently > told by an experienced lab technician that men are four or five times > more likely to faint when having blood taken than women are. lg: I HAVE heard that before and the kitchen table philosophy of the grandmothers was that women are more likely to have dealt with blood and shit and puke -- being the menstruators (sp?) and wound wrappers and sick-bed tenders and child-care providers.... luz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:39:15 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: pheromones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > >Sheldon. A thoroughly chilling vision of gender war (though it didn't make > > >scientific sense unless you believe that humans give off and can detect > > >pheromones). > > > > Do they? > > NH: Not with any reliability, if I remember my bio correctly. Seems to > be faint and vestigial in us. One of the fascinating theories that > Elaine Morgan talked about in "Descent of Woman" was that (and I'm > condensing and paraphrasing) human intelligence and self-awareness may > have developed to the extent it has in order to compensate for the loss > of much biologically determined instinctual behaviour--the loss of > instinct having come about through a combination of evolutionary > changes. > > -nalo lg: I'm reading Uhura's Song by Janet Kagen (recommended by someone on this list, thanks from an unashamed Trekkie). The Sivoans -- a feline-like race -- have a highly developed (or maybe a less underdeveloped) sense of smell that allows them to read emotions and other things. What I imagine reading pheromones might be like.... luz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MaryKay Bird-Guilliams Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: <970926214346_-1464361702@emout20.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You have to wade through the entire book to get to it (not an onerous chore at all) but Sheri Tepper's book Gibbons Decline and Fall explores reproductive options in a very novel way. Mary K. Bird-Guilliams marykbg@wichita.lib.ks.us Reference Librarian Wichita Public Library ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:07:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > > There is a pretty interesting story by Tiptree in which men >throughout > the US kill off women because aliens are somehow >drugging them. I can't > think of the name of the story off-hand. The >aliens want to the kill off > the human population. It is not a utopia (no >where near it) but it does > deal with the relationship between >reproduction and population. > > This is, I think, 'The Screwfly Solution', which first appeared (if I'm not > mistaken) under the other pseudonym, Raccoona Sheldon. What was scary about it > was the way the 'normal' misogyny of certain religious groups etc segued right > into murderous intraspecies violence. There was also some allusion to the use > of messing up the reproductive patterns of various agrarian insect pests as a > control measure (by humans). > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > Yes,it was under Raccoona Sheldon's name- anyone know much about Racoons and why she might have chosen such a puesdonym for her more explicitly feminist work? Is it a animal prone to attacking opponents? Why is it I vaguely associate Racoons with Daniel Boone? Do racoons have some place in American mythology? Tiptree's story is a marvellous one, I think. Not only is ordinary religious misogyny transformed into violence, but the most irreproachable examples of male love for women is transformed by the aliens (who want to clear the planet for real estate sales) into death. This is because, apparently, the aliens only needed to slightly alter an already existing link between sex and violence.Its a thouroughly essentialist work, suggesting hard wired and tragically unchangeable biological drives. She makes the same link in her short story "Love is the Plan, the Plan is Death" where the same thing occurs in aliens- this logically reduces to love equals death. Tiptree is a very depressing feminist: nothing, in her view, can ever really change despite the complete injustise of male domination over women because of biology. Any male responses to this theory? Personally, I don't think I can afford to believe it (although I don't think Tiptree was aiming at conversion of unbelievers). I think the story won a Hugo or Nebula, so presumnably it was admired. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:28:02 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: all male societies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tanya Wood wrote: > > On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > This is, I think, 'The Screwfly Solution', which first appeared (if I'm not > > mistaken) under the other pseudonym, Raccoona Sheldon. What was scary about it > > was the way the 'normal' misogyny of certain religious groups etc segued right > > into murderous intraspecies violence. There was also some allusion to the use > > of messing up the reproductive patterns of various agrarian insect pests as a > > control measure (by humans). > > Lesley > > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > > >> Yes,it was under Raccoona Sheldon's name- anyone know much about Racoons > and why she might have chosen such a puesdonym for her more explicitly > feminist work? Is it a animal prone to attacking opponents? Why is it I > vaguely associate Racoons with Daniel Boone? Do racoons have some > place in American mythology? > lg: I don't know raccoons as being "prone to attacking opponents", although they do aggressively defend themselves from attackers. Daniel Boone (at least on tv and in US mythology) wore a dead racoon on his head -- a man-takes-on-the-wilderness symbol from a period when racoon fur and that of other northern mammals brought a good price on the national and global market, creating a career of hunting/trapping racoons and others. As for racoon in US-American mythology, they are, I believe, seen as sneaky, theives (note their masks), mischevious, intelligent tricksters. luz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:42:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Dune, applying feminist perspectives, and Friday. In-Reply-To: <970926151221_336962695@emout01.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In response to Suzette Elgin's comments on Dune- yes, in a way I do think it is possible that we were reading different books, reader/text theory being what it is. Actually when I first read Dune (I was about 13) it blew me away and in fact changed my reading material for ever. From then on I knew that I was an SF reader and stayed one ever since. I think its perfectly possible to admire and respect a book (Herbert's use of symbolism, and richness of imagaination and narrative drive are all extraordinary) while critqueing its sexual politics. And yes, I do think its quite fair and reasonable to look at books from the past through a more modern critical lens. Someone (Sean I think) suggested that you shouldn't apply modern notions to Herbert's work. Of course you should! How else can you see changes between now and then?.Or get an idea of the way things were? Anyone who is interested in feminism and women is perfectly entitled to examine works in the past from a modern feminst perspective: the danger is damning a work because it doesn't measure up to our standards. That should be avoided. I spend most of my time working in the renaiisance, and its fascinating to examine the complicated, fissured and tangled sexual politics of the era in a way that they simply could not consciously have done. For example, now, with hindsight we can see the surprising ways that piety (which should have bound women to a subordinate role) actually gave renaissance (especially protestant) woman a god- scantioned mandate to speak and write, as well as powerful forms of personal consolation for childbirth and high mortality rates. We need to look at the societies in question in holistic and careful ways to be sure, but there is no way that I can accept that a feminist viewpoint is inappropriate merely because feminism didn't yet exist. Should Marxists be debarred from looking at class structures in pre-industrial society merely because Marxism didn't yet exist? No- but they should be very careful because terms and meanings have changed. No doubt, in the future, the same process will be applied to us. So it goes. In the end, I don't think providing "strong woman characters" is enough, or even close. Which was one reason why I too hated "Friday". I was gripped until the end, when she joined the PTA (baking cookies and attending meetings). I realise I am venturing into Hilary Clinton territory here, and all the attendant dangers. Its just that I object to motherhood and marraige and traditional roles ALWAYS being the solution. I really don't think this reflects reality. Tanya. PS another Heinlein story where characters change sexes is "All You Zombies" where a time traveller who changes sex ends up making love to his female self and his orginal self is the resulting child.Paradoexes, paradoxes. But whatever else Heinlein was, he wasn't a sexual conservative and experimented in extraordinary and brave ways. Still don't like his notions of femininity through. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:56:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: Transition Series In-Reply-To: <342CFFFD.CCF0B3A0@mint.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Nina M. Osier wrote: > I've read "Starfarers" and "Transition." Has McIntyre written more in > this series? I loved it, would be happy to discuss it (on or off the > list) and would be delighted if it's been extended with another volume. > > Nina Osier (mbarron@mint.net) > There are two other books in the series - Metaphase and Nautilus. Both are great fun. I really enjoyed the almost total race- and gender- free society which McIntyre creates in these books. The characters are generally bisexual, and sometimes live in partnerships, which I found pretty interesting. The gender of each character is given, but then pretty much ignored. Come to think of it, is Merry's gender ever given? pamela bedore ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:07:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: pheromones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII lg: I'm reading Uhura's Song by Janet Kagen (recommended by someone on this list, thanks from an unashamed Trekkie). The Sivoans -- a feline-like race -- have a highly developed (or maybe a less underdeveloped) sense of smell that allows them to read emotions and other things. What I imagine reading pheromones might be like.... luz Octavia Butler also plays around with pheronomes in Clay's Ark, where this disease reverts humans to a more instinctual, animalistic form. Patternmaster is from the perspective of the society fightin the Clayarkans. I would recommend both these novels as examining power issues in quite interesting ways. Pamela Bedore ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:01:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Friday << lg: I have NEVER heard that women have a lower pain threshold -- maybe that's another one of those cultural things... or might it be generational? >> In this case I think it was a bit of ignorance on the part of a male student: men are "tough," girls are "wimps." ;-) I'd be interested to see any studies on the subject, if there are any. But I suspect neither sex would really win out: it seems humans are able to cope to a large extent with whatever they need to in order to survive. I don't know if a football player writhing in agony after a serious injury is "handling" it any better or worse than a woman screaming out in childbirth. But then again, that's a real case of apples'n'oranges. Hmm... Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:09:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: girls 'n' football Another of my students mentioned playing football with a girl (high school?) and pointed out that he didn't object to her playing per se, but he was uncomfortable trying to tackle her--not because he was afraid of hurting her, but because he didn't know what ways to grab or touch her would be appropriate/acceptable. I told him I though that was a good point, and tried to point out to the class that these things are symptoms of a changing culture where men & women are having to learn to interact in ways that never existed before. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:36:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: *On* topic (probably not on topic anymore =) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:59 AM 9/23/97 -0400, Heather MacLean wrote: >Well, I didn't use the term sustenance for a reason--there are different >means of subsistence, some of which, exactly, are barter (home child care, >baking, errand-running, etc.). There are other elements, such as the >raising of children (future providers of subsistence), and facilitating (to >use a nice term) the primary subsistence provider's existence. In any case, >the latter function can also be seen in terms of barter. Certainly if I >ever have children and get to stay at home to raise them during their early >years, I will be so extraordinarily grateful to not have to work that I'll >even do the windows. =) And I will expect my partner to provide my >sustenance for the most part: that will be my salary. Not to mention the >benefits I expect (perhaps idealistically and certainly egotistically) for >my children from having so much time with them. > >In that sense, these homemakers are getting paid. Some of them may even >garden, and provide a little sustenance too. Well... this makes me uncomfortable because marriage is NOT viewed as barter by a lot of people. At least not as a fair system of barter. For example, a man might think that because he "brings home the bacon" he ought to be able to have sex with his wife whenever he wants to, regardless of her own wishes. And if a woman wants to reenter the work force after several years at home, she will most likely return to the job market with a significant skills deficit. Maybe she won't be able to find a job at all. She might be forced to put up with the unpleasant behavior of her spouse just to keep out of poverty. Neither of these scenarios is that common in America today, but they are not unheard of. There are safe houses of course, and welfare. But both of these seem like treatments of the symptoms, not the cause. Sexism on a larger scale is responsible in part, but I think the artificial division of the world into "public" and "private" worlds is another contributor. My .sig file seems particularly appropriate right now. :) -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead, OK Computer; Tricky, Pre-Millennium Tension "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:24:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: What do women want? Power? In-Reply-To: <199709270424.AAA21784@mail.gwi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:24 AM 9/27/97 -0400, Marilyn Nulman wrote: >Reading the posts about women in Heinlein and Dune made me think that many >people (men?) seem to assume that women in general want the same kinds of >power that men usually seem to want, visible power, power over others, power >as an end in itself. That they try to get power over others by stealth >because they're not strong enough to get it by force. I think of the >powerful women in sf and find some who do this, like the women behind the >Gate to Women's Country, and others who don't, like the old woman of Remnant >Population who only wants to be left alone to cultivate her garden. > >Must a strong female character always want power? Or do circumstances >thrust the need for it upon her? This was something that occurred to me after reading *Woman on the Edge of Time*: what exactly is power? In that book, Luciente seemed to think that power meant "power over", the means to coerce others into doing what you want (which was a bad thing). But my own idea of power is "power to", the means of doing things for yourself. So, I have the power to grow my own garden, to direct my own thought process (shaky sometimes), to do any number of things. In my last job as a manager I also had power over two subordinates -- to tell them to do things, rate their performance and decide whether or not they got raises. I wasn't very comfortable with that sort of power, especially when it confronted MY manager's power over me and I was forced to pass along decisions I didn't agree with to my subordinates. In science fiction I've seen women portrayed with both sorts of power. Allderra, in Suzy McKee Charnas's *The Furies*, definitely has power over her army, though Charnas makes it clear how unstable such a hierarchy is. Allderra is continually in danger of betrayal and has to be aware at all times of the emotional tenor of her followers. It seems like a lot of work and not at all fun. A contrasting example, once again, is Merwen in *A Door Into Ocean*. She has quite a bit of power to bring Gatherings to consensus and to influence people with cogent argument. However, she has no power over them. If someone is unconvinced by her argument, that's it, she's run out of ways to influence them. I definitely prefer "power to", in books as in real life. I liked *The Furies* because Charnas was exploring how victims of a rigidly enforced, brutal hierarchy would react if they suddenly had power over their oppressors. (Not well, it turns out.) But books which take for granted a military-industrial complex and spend a lot of time detailing people's efforts to advance in the hierarchy or gain power over their enemies... bore me. I guess I've seen too many of them, some with female protagonists. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead, OK Computer; Tricky, Pre-Millennium Tension "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:40:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970927003340.006d31c4@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Has anyone mentioned Philip Wylie's 1951 novel The Disappearance, in which men and women suddenly find themselves in different, gender segregated alternate universes? Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:57:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Transition Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, you're right! Merry's gender was not given, at least not in the first two books! Now I'll have to go looking for the next two, thanks for letting me know they're out there. At the time I read "Starfarers" I was a bit uncomfortable with the bisexuality and group sex, but the characters were so believable and the story so interesting that I got past that discomfort. (I read it what seems to me like a very long time ago, and let's just say that my tolerance for other people's sexual preferences has matured in the years since then. Found out I had gay friends and didn't know it, in other words!) By the time I got hold of "Transition" I was just eager to FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED, which of course is the highest compliment one can pay the author of any type of adventure story. It also interests me, looking back now, that the "Web" in this series was given that name by the author some time before the Internet became something to be used by all us ordinary people and before it acquired its nickname. Prophetic, in at least a small way. Nina Osier Pamela Bedore wrote: > On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Nina M. Osier wrote: > > > I've read "Starfarers" and "Transition." Has McIntyre written more > in > > this series? I loved it, would be happy to discuss it (on or off the > > > list) and would be delighted if it's been extended with another > volume. > > > > Nina Osier (mbarron@mint.net) > > > There are two other books in the series - Metaphase and Nautilus. > Both > are great fun. > > I really enjoyed the almost total race- and gender- free society which > > McIntyre creates in these books. The characters are generally > bisexual, > and sometimes live in partnerships, which I found pretty interesting. > The > gender of each character is given, but then pretty much ignored. > > Come to think of it, is Merry's gender ever given? > > pamela bedore ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:20:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: pheromones Comments: To: luz guerra In-Reply-To: <342DD163.1F6E@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, luz guerra wrote: > > lg: I'm reading Uhura's Song by Janet Kagen (recommended by someone on > this list, thanks from an unashamed Trekkie). The Sivoans -- a > feline-like race -- have a highly developed (or maybe a less > underdeveloped) sense of smell that allows them to read emotions and > other things. What I imagine reading pheromones might be like.... NH: Well then, let me proudly recommend a short story titled "True Thomas" by my co-Clarionette Bruce Glassgo. It's in the most recent Datlow/Windling fairy tale antho, _Black Swan, White Raven._ It's actually a science-fictional retelling of the Thomas the Rhymer tale (or one of the Thomases, or both--Tam Lin, I mean--I always mixed them up). Bruce wrote the story at Clarion, and I think it's a fine one. It deals with just what it might be like to be able to read the 'messages' in pheromones. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:25:36 -0400 Reply-To: Nalo Hopkinson Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Racoons and Daniel Boone In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Tanya, I think you associate racoons with Daniel Boone because of the hat he's supposed to have worn, with a (racoon? opossum?) tail attached to it. I vaguely remember a ditty from one of those Disney dramas about American history: Swamp hog, swamp hog, tail on his hat, Nobody knows where the swamp hog's at. Swamp hog, swamp hog, hidin' in the glen, He runs away to fight again. (The horror is that I also still remember the tune.) -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:31:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: LOL (laughing out loud) re: Daniel Boone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Okay, so it was swamp *fox,* not swamp *hog.* -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:31:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Dune, applying feminist perspectives, and Friday. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >And yes, I do think its quite fair and reasonable to look at books from >the past through a more modern critical lens. Someone (Sean I think) >suggested that you shouldn't apply modern notions to Herbert's work. Of >course you should! How else can you see changes between now and then?.Or >get an idea of the way things were? > >Anyone who is interested in feminism >and women is perfectly entitled to examine works in the past from a modern >feminst perspective: the danger is damning a work because it doesn't >measure up to our standards. That should be avoided. That's pretty much what I meant to say. Simply consider where a work is coming from before applying to it "our standards". One last time: I think he did great for his time. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:44:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: *On* topic (probably not on topic anymore =) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970927153657.006d358c@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 10:59 AM 9/23/97 -0400, Heather MacLean wrote: >>Well, I didn't use the term sustenance for a reason--there are different >>means of subsistence, some of which, exactly, are barter (home child care, >>baking, errand-running, etc.). There are other elements, such as the >>raising of children (future providers of subsistence), and facilitating (to >>use a nice term) the primary subsistence provider's existence. In any case, >>the latter function can also be seen in terms of barter. Certainly if I >>ever have children and get to stay at home to raise them during their early >>years, I will be so extraordinarily grateful to not have to work that I'll >>even do the windows. =) And I will expect my partner to provide my >>sustenance for the most part: that will be my salary. Not to mention the >>benefits I expect (perhaps idealistically and certainly egotistically) for >>my children from having so much time with them. >> >>In that sense, these homemakers are getting paid. Some of them may even >>garden, and provide a little sustenance too. > >Well... this makes me uncomfortable because marriage is NOT viewed as >barter by a lot of people. At least not as a fair system of barter. For >example, a man might think that because he "brings home the bacon" he ought >to be able to have sex with his wife whenever he wants to, regardless of >her own wishes. > And if a woman wants to reenter the work force after several years at >home, she will most likely return to the job market with a significant >skills deficit. Maybe she won't be able to find a job at all. She might be >forced to put up with the unpleasant behavior of her spouse just to keep >out of poverty. > Neither of these scenarios is that common in America today, but they >are not unheard of. I think they are rather more common than one might think, which is detestable. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:43:28 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: LOL (laughing out loud) re: Daniel Boone In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (The song was the theme song for "Swamp Fox," a tv show about Francis Marion; if I recall correctly, he was a Revolutionary War guerrilla... at least in the Disney version. I don't know the true history of the character. (I don't think the Daniel Boone theme song referred to his coonskin cap, but I could be mistaken; however, Disney merchandised the hell out of it in the mid-1950s or thereabouts. (Amazing what I can dredge up out of my brain from 40 years ago.) On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 18:31:49 -0400, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >Okay, so it was swamp *fox,* not swamp *hog.* > >-nalo New at: http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda "Pitfalls of Writing SF & Fantasy" -- useful information for new writers. Another web page, thanks to Carol Van Natta and Ann Harbour: http://www.oz.net/~vonda Including "The Adventure of the Field Theorems" Sir Arthur Conan Doyle hires Sherlock Holmes to investigate crop circles. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:43:27 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: all male societies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For reasons that were never entirely clear to me, Alli Sheldon thought raccoons were cute; they were more or less her totem. She didn't particularly like either her given name (Alice) or the nickname she often signed her letters with (Alli). Vonda On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:07:55 -0400, Tanya Wood wrote: >... > >Yes,it was under Raccoona Sheldon's name- anyone know much about Racoons >and why she might have chosen such a puesdonym for her more explicitly >feminist work? Is it a animal prone to attacking opponents? Why is it I >vaguely associate Racoons with Daniel Boone? Do racoons have some >place in American mythology? > >... New at: http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda "Pitfalls of Writing SF & Fantasy" -- useful information for new writers. Another web page, thanks to Carol Van Natta and Ann Harbour: http://www.oz.net/~vonda Including "The Adventure of the Field Theorems" Sir Arthur Conan Doyle hires Sherlock Holmes to investigate crop circles. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: LOL (laughing out loud) re: Daniel Boone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vonda N. McIntyre wrote: > (I don't think the Daniel Boone theme song > referred to his coonskin cap, but I could be > mistaken; however, Disney merchandised the hell > out of it in the mid-1950s or thereabouts. > > (Amazing what I can dredge up out of my brain from > 40 years ago.) I can't remember the Dan'l Boone theme song (I can remember the hats they sold, just not the song), but I -can- remember several verses from the Davy Crocket song -and- the 'Battle Of N'Awl Leans', which was the first single I ever bought. It was full of snare drums and patriotism. "Well, they ran through the br'wrs and they ran through the brambles and they ran through the bushes where the rabbits couldn't go/ They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't kitch 'em/ On down the Mississippi to the Gulf 'o Mexico" Sigh. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:36:29 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: _Friday's name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:03:35 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: I don't know, but I've wondered too. Robinson Crusoe is all I could > think of whenever I read the name, and with my Caribbean background, my > warning bells tended to go off. Oh, and also coupled with the > association of the Gal Friday, the office gofer. > > -nalo Monday's child is fair of face; Tuesday's child is full of grace; Wednesday's child is full of woe; Thursday's child has far to go; *Friday's child is loving and giving*; Saturday's child work's hard for a living; but the child who is born on the Sabbath day is bonny and bright, happy and gay. I think Friday's child accurately sums up the character. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:39:00 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Pronouns in science fiction and reality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:05:14 PDT Mark Smith wrote: > From: Mark Smith > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:05:14 PDT > Subject: Pronouns in science fiction and reality > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > In response to Pat's previous posting about pronouns, this the the > editorial policy from the > > Nontraditional Newsweb > page. > > > This publication is for, by, and about women, and dedicated to > eliminating discrimination. Therefore, as a > matter of editorial policy, we have reset our default assumptions from > male to female. Traditionally inclusive terms such as "he," > "him," and "his," as used herein, refer exclusively to women, both > generically and specifically. For example, since our new > default assumption is female, if a sentence says, "He is a professor," > you can be absolutely certain that he is a woman otherwise > the sentence would have to read, "He is a male professor." > > --Mark > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com I don't think I like this. It accepts that the term used to specify a minority of the population has gained dominance. I prefer to use she. farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:42:35 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:58:40 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > From: Nalo Hopkinson > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:58:40 -0400 > Subject: Re: Friday > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > > thresholds) is true or false? > > NH: I believe it's true, in the same way that the 'men are bigger and > stronger than women' thing is true. Don't know if it's linked to > childbirth or not. Could be linked to menstrual cramps too, for that > matter. If it's linked to anything at all. > > -nalo Its about stamina rather than pain thresholds as such. The strength gap between men and women starts to close when the test is stamina rather than speed or agility. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:40:08 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:12:56 -0400 Nicole Youngman wrote: > > << It may be soppy or unsatisfactory that Friday resolves > her feminity in child bearing, but remember, this is someone who has been > denied that right > and repeatedly told that she is not human enough to be a mother or a member > of a family. >> > > Right, but she doesn't go out and get pregnant on her own. Please correct me > if I'm wrong, but didn't she get inseminated without her knowledge for some > sort of smuggling operation? She thought she was carrying something valuable > in some sort of internal compartment, then it turns out it's a fetus fathered > by some prince or something. So instead of getting mad, she thinks "Hey, now > I can have a baby!" and decides to keep it for herself, and ends up playing > traditional mom on some new colony. Thus subverting the actual demand that women place their maternal capacity at the service of a man. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:43:33 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Heinlein, and I Will Fear No Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:50:40 -0400 Ann Wheeler wrote: > From: Ann Wheeler > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:50:40 -0400 > Subject: Heinlein, and I Will Fear No Evil > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > *I Will Fear No Evil* was the end of Heinlein for me, after many (adolescent) > years of reading anything of his that I could find. In *I Will Fear No > Evil*, if I'm remembering correctly after so long, the old man doesn't just > switch genders. He has his brain transplanted into the body of a woman (I > think a woman with whom he was acquainted) who has just died. And his whole > personality survives--suggesting it was contained in his brain--as does > hers--suggesting it was contained in her body. After the implications of > this characterization dawned on me--using that overused metaphor in its full > sense of having light slowly emerge out of darkness--I couldn't read Heinlein > in the same way, or indeed at all, anymore. > > Ann Wheeler Agreed, a truly embarrassing book. Farah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:51:22 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:01:46 -0400 Nicole Youngman wrote: > From: Nicole Youngman > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:01:46 -0400 > Subject: Re: Friday > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > << lg: I have NEVER heard that women have a lower pain threshold -- maybe > that's another one of those cultural things... or might it be > generational? >> > > In this case I think it was a bit of ignorance on the part of a male student: > men are "tough," girls are "wimps." ;-) > > I'd be interested to see any studies on the subject, if there are any. But I > suspect neither sex would really win out: it seems humans are able to cope to > a large extent with whatever they need to in order to survive. I don't know > if a football player writhing in agony after a serious injury is "handling" > it any better or worse than a woman screaming out in childbirth. But then > again, that's a real case of apples'n'oranges. Hmm... > > Nicole This may be about the "boys don't hit girls" and "girls don't knee boys in the crotch" business. The first needs justification, the second seems to be a simple way of making sure women will grow up without an automatic defense against rape. Gerd Brantenberg's Daughter's of Egalia turns it neatly. Girls don't hit boys because their important bits are so exposed (hanging outside of their skirts in little pouches) that they might get badly hurt, and their hair is too soft to pull. Farah. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:32:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: What do women want? Power? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Janice Dawley: > [...] what exactly is power? [...] > "power over", the means to coerce others into doing what you > want (which was a bad thing). But my own idea of power is "power to", the > means of doing things for yourself. This sounds exactly like what I remember from Starhawk's _Dreaming the Dark_, except she calls them "power over" and "power from within." I have tried to apply this in identifying uses and meanings of "power" since reading that (I should go back and re-read since I don't remember anything but this from the book). -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:32:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:58:40 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > >> From: Nalo Hopkinson >> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:58:40 -0400 >> Subject: Re: Friday >> To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> >> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: >> >> > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have >> > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain >> > thresholds) is true or false? >> >> NH: I believe it's true, in the same way that the 'men are bigger and >> stronger than women' thing is true. Don't know if it's linked to >> childbirth or not. Could be linked to menstrual cramps too, for that >> matter. If it's linked to anything at all. >> >> -nalo > > >Its about stamina rather than pain thresholds as such. The strength gap >between men and >women starts to close when the test is stamina rather than speed or agility. > >Farah Okay. So it sounds like women have more strength than power, since power is usually seen as explosive, short-lived. At least, that's how I see it. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:55:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanne Striley Subject: Re: re: Dan'l Boone Theme In-Reply-To: <342DEB03.5DC7@localnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:28 AM 9/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >Vonda N. McIntyre wrote: > >> (I don't think the Daniel Boone theme song >> referred to his coonskin cap, but I could be >> mistaken; however, Disney merchandised the hell >> out of it in the mid-1950s or thereabouts. > >I can't remember the Dan'l Boone theme song (I can remember the hats >they sold, just not the song) Sheesh, OK, just because it is such a monument to sexual "roles" etc of the early 60s (No replies, please!): Daniel Boone was a man, yes a big man, With an eye like an eagle and as tall as a mighty oak tree. (Daniel Boone) >From the **coonskin cap** on the top of old Dan To the heel of his rawhide shoe The rippin'est roarin'est fightin'est man The frontier ever knew. Daniel Boone was a man, yes a big man, And he fought for America to make all Americans free. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:00:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Friday << Thus subverting the actual demand that women place their maternal capacity at the service of a man. >> She could have done the same thing by aborting the fetus--but she goes through with it, accepting what's been done to her, and decides that the act of childbirth is what makes her human. That, I think, is the problem. Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:41:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <970928130022_1429538718@emout15.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" > >She could have done the same thing by aborting the fetus--but she goes >through with it, accepting what's been done to her, and decides that the act >of childbirth is what makes her human. That, I think, is the problem. > >Nicole Nicole, What is? The acceptance or the act of childbirth? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:56:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Dan'l Boone Theme In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970928095513.006b82c8@ncrel.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > At 01:28 AM 9/28/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Vonda N. McIntyre wrote: > > > >> (I don't think the Daniel Boone theme song > >> referred to his coonskin cap, but I could be > >> mistaken; however, Disney merchandised the hell > >> out of it in the mid-1950s or thereabouts. > > > >I can't remember the Dan'l Boone theme song (I can remember the hats > >they sold, just not the song) > > Sheesh, OK, just because it is such a monument to sexual "roles" etc of the > early 60s > (No replies, please!): > > Daniel Boone was a man, yes a big man, > With an eye like an eagle and as tall as a mighty oak tree. > (Daniel Boone) > > >From the **coonskin cap** on the top of old Dan > To the heel of his rawhide shoe > The rippin'est roarin'est fightin'est man > The frontier ever knew. > > Daniel Boone was a man, yes a big man, > And he fought for America to make all Americans free. > I've been trying to get these lyrics straight in my head so I could send them, but I couldn't quite do it. I'm glad someone did. Despite the mention of the coonskin cap in the Daniel Boone theme song, however, the actual coonskin cap craze, of which I was a part as a small boy, developed out of the enormous popularity of the somewhat earlier TV show Davey Crockett, starring Fess Parker (who, I believe, later played Boone). Just about every boy in America wanted a coonskin cap because Davey Crockett wore one. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:03:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Nicole. That is just the point, isn't it? Not what choice she made about whether or not to continue the pregnancy, certainly there can be many reasons for making that sort of decision - but her perception that having a child was necessary in order for her to be fully human? Nothing drives me more nuts than hearing a friend's little girl say: "Boys grow up to be men, girls grow up to be mothers." (Haven't attended church on Mother's Day since someone insisted on giving me a bunch of flowers as a "potential mother" - the clear message being that a childless woman has something wrong with her that needs to be fixed. I decided that there was a problem there, all right, but it wasn't with me!) Nina Osier Nicole Youngman wrote: > << Thus subverting the actual demand that women place their maternal > capacity > at the service of > a man. >> > > She could have done the same thing by aborting the fetus--but she goes > > through with it, accepting what's been done to her, and decides that > the act > of childbirth is what makes her human. That, I think, is the problem. > > Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 01:56:53 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: *On* topic (probably not on topic anymore =) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sean Johnston wrote: > > >At 10:59 AM 9/23/97 -0400, Heather MacLean wrote:> > > >Well... this makes me uncomfortable because marriage is NOT viewed as > >barter by a lot of people. At least not as a fair system of barter. For > >example, a man might think that because he "brings home the bacon" he ought > >to be able to have sex with his wife whenever he wants to, regardless of > >her own wishes. > > And if a woman wants to reenter the work force after several years at > >home, she will most likely return to the job market with a significant > >skills deficit. Maybe she won't be able to find a job at all. She might be > >forced to put up with the unpleasant behavior of her spouse just to keep > >out of poverty. > > Neither of these scenarios is that common in America today, but they > >are not unheard of. > > I think they are rather more common than one might think, which is detestable. > > -Sean lg: MUCH more common, which is indeed detestable... luz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:10:47 -0400 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: What do women want? Power? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Briggs wrote: > > Janice Dawley: > > [...] what exactly is power? [...] > > "power over", the means to coerce others into doing what you > > want (which was a bad thing). But my own idea of power is "power to", the > > means of doing things for yourself. > > This sounds exactly like what I remember from Starhawk's _Dreaming the > Dark_, except she calls them "power over" and "power from within." I > have tried to apply this in identifying uses and meanings of "power" > since reading that (I should go back and re-read since I don't remember > anything but this from the book). > > -allen > > -- > Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com lg: My thoughts as well. Starhawk refers to (I may be paraphrasing a bit here) three types of power: 1) power over -- being the dominant form of power exercised in this (US) society and in western patriarchal cultures. 'Power over' is modeled in all of our social and political institutions. 2) power from within -- being what we need more of -- power being drawn from within the individual who has found her/his center, higher power, inner force, etc. 3) power with -- being the shared power among a grouping of people who are conscientously accessing their power within. I have used Starhawk's definition in teaching/training groups around issues of group power, communication and decision-making. As an educator I immediately liked Starhawk's description -- I was unprepared for the hunger with which students grabbed onto these three definitions as a needed tool for their own growth/transformation. luz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:18:04 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: Heinlein, and I Will Fear No Evil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit farah mendlesohn wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:50:40 -0400 Ann Wheeler wrote: > > > From: Ann Wheeler > > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:50:40 -0400 > > Subject: Heinlein, and I Will Fear No Evil > > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > > > *I Will Fear No Evil* was the end of Heinlein for me, after many (adolescent) > > years of reading anything of his that I could find. In *I Will Fear No > > Evil*, if I'm remembering correctly after so long, the old man doesn't just > > switch genders. He has his brain transplanted into the body of a woman (I > > think a woman with whom he was acquainted) who has just died. And his whole > > personality survives--suggesting it was contained in his brain--as does > > hers--suggesting it was contained in her body. After the implications of > > this characterization dawned on me--using that overused metaphor in its full > > sense of having light slowly emerge out of darkness--I couldn't read Heinlein > > in the same way, or indeed at all, anymore. > > > > Ann Wheeler > > Agreed, a truly embarrassing book. > > Farah I try hard to remember that he wrote this book after a very nasty illness involving his own brain. Either an embolism or a tumor, I can't quite remember. I've read in several places that he wasn't quite himself after the illness. One does wonder, however, about his publisher. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:24:32 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I still don't buy that I alot of this "explosive strength is masculine..." stuff. I read a piece of research recently in which men and women were set to the task of tapping two targets with a pencil. The researcher found that men went faster and that women were slower but more accurate. I suspect we're socialized from the crip to be this way. I certainly see it in the classroom. Interestingly, the research was done to evaluate the muscle condition of users of alcohol and a group of controls. This data was a sidebar. Sean Johnston wrote: > > >On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:58:40 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > >> From: Nalo Hopkinson > >> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:58:40 -0400 > >> Subject: Re: Friday > >> To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >> > >> On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >> > >> > EEEYOWWCH! Perhaps the childbirth thing is why women tend to have > >> > higher pain thresholds than men. Anybody know if this (about pain > >> > thresholds) is true or false? > >> > >> NH: I believe it's true, in the same way that the 'men are bigger and > >> stronger than women' thing is true. Don't know if it's linked to > >> childbirth or not. Could be linked to menstrual cramps too, for that > >> matter. If it's linked to anything at all. > >> > >> -nalo > > > > > >Its about stamina rather than pain thresholds as such. The strength gap > >between men and > >women starts to close when the test is stamina rather than speed or agility. > > > >Farah > > Okay. So it sounds like women have more strength than power, since power > is usually seen as explosive, short-lived. At least, that's how I see it. > > -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:49:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Friday << What is? The acceptance or the act of childbirth? >> What is the problem, you mean? Or what makes her human? Either, or both, in any case. I can understand a reading suggesting that it's a subversive act to claim this guy's child as her own since her body is creating it; but it's too closely parallel to expecting a woman who's pregnant from being raped to decide oh well, it's really *her* baby and she'll love and accept it regardless. Please note also that it's not wanting or deciding to be a mother that's a problem here; it's the idea that the act of voluntarily birthing and mothering a child that was *forced* upon her is what finally defines her as *human* in her own eyes. Blech. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <970928164907_1597319878@emout06.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ><< What is? The acceptance or the act of childbirth? >> > >What is the problem, you mean? Or what makes her human? Either, or both, in >any case. I can understand a reading suggesting that it's a subversive act to >claim this guy's child as her own since her body is creating it; but it's too >closely parallel to expecting a woman who's pregnant from being raped to >decide oh well, it's really *her* baby and she'll love and accept it >regardless. Please note also that it's not wanting or deciding to be a mother >that's a problem here; it's the idea that the act of voluntarily birthing and >mothering a child that was *forced* upon her is what finally defines her as >*human* in her own eyes. Blech. I imagine, if I were in that situation, I'd want to have the kid and adopt it off, but I'll never be there, so all I suppose I could do would be support whatever decision the raped person makes. As to that defining her as human, I agree: blech. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:35:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sally Kamholtz Subject: Re: All Male Societies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Storm Constantine's Wraethu trilogy is about an all-male society--vampiric, as I remember. I read the first with interest, bought the rest, but couldn't make myself read it. It just seemed too self-obliterating. Sally Kamholtz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:32:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <342E9C02.AD632BF0@mint.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Nina M. Osier wrote: > > > > She could have done the same thing by aborting the fetus--but she goes > > > > through with it, accepting what's been done to her, and decides that > > the act > > of childbirth is what makes her human. That, I think, is the problem. > > The thing here is that she is human as opposed to being some sort of android. Data on Next Gen would feel the same way from all we've seen of him. So would Odo on DS-9> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu "With a 14.4 modem it's not netsurfing.It's webcrawling." "Wanted, one ghost. Experience and good character required. Ability to ing tenor an advantage. Apply Paris Opera before New Years, 1882." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:38:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Friday << The thing here is that she is human as opposed to being some sort of android. >> So are we defining human in strictly biological terms? Seems like that kind of definition would defeat the purpose of an awful lot of literature. >>"With a 14.4 modem it's not netsurfing.It's webcrawling." Tell me about it...;-) Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Friday In-Reply-To: <970928213520_1530228222@emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ><< > The thing here is that she is human as opposed to being some sort > of android. >> > >So are we defining human in strictly biological terms? Seems like that kind >of definition would defeat the purpose of an awful lot of literature. > >>>"With a 14.4 modem it's not netsurfing.It's webcrawling." > >Tell me about it...;-) > >Nicole Anything lower and what, web-limping? -Sean ;-) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:59:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Friday << Anything lower and what, web-limping? >> Then you get caught by the spider. ;-)