"FEMINISTSF LOG9709D" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:38:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jeanine Pedersen Subject: Re: Mary Poppins and SF Try buying Mary Poppins in a book store these days. Last Christmas I tried buying it for one of my nieces. I tried Borders, Barnes & Noble, Crown & several local stores in Chicago -- Women & Children First & Barbara's -- I was told the same by all of them. They don't carry it, it isn't popular & they could try special ordering it from the publisher but that it could take 6 - 12 weeks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, H. Tytel wrote: > On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > Laura, > > Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of > > backlash, perhaps? > > > > -Sean > > > > I can't speak for Laura, but most of what I've seen suggests that this is > the result of gender segregation in college and other post-High school > education - most new high-paying jobs > are in high tech or related fields (such as graphic design, etc.). WOmen > tend to study humanities, and to come out with little computer > training, so we don't qualify for these jobs. > Admittedly, I came out of college with a History /Library Degree, and my sister with Art/Teaching. We are both working in the computer field now and where I have worked it is at least 50/50. I think the computer field is so desperate for people that can actually produce that gender prejudice is crumbling. I don't have any statistics but I suspect that part of the drop in % is due to A) the Baby boomlet taking women out of the market temporarily and /or dropping out of the fast track, and the current backlash against feminism ( a backlash which may finally be ending, I hope) Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: "Riding the Red" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Titles aren't copyrightable, so no need. Also, it's a pretty generic one-word title. Now, if your proposed title were to be, "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones," my advice would probably be different... :) -nalo On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >NH: Aww. Thanks, Ildiko. The next Datlow/Windling fairy tale antho. is > >_Silver Birch, Blood Moon,_ and my short story "Precious" is in that one. > > > >-nalo > > Great. Now I have to retitle my story of the same name of "Precious". Oh, > well. > > -Sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:41:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: Laura, Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of backlash, perhaps? On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, H. Tytel wrote: I can't speak for Laura, but most of what I've seen suggests that this is the result of gender segregation in college and other post-High school education - most new high-paying jobs are in high tech or related fields (such as graphic design, etc.). WOmen tend to study humanities, and to come out with little computer training, so we don't qualify for these jobs. At 09:58 AM 9/19/97 -0700, Denise Borgen wrote: Admittedly, I came out of college with a History /Library Degree, and my sister with Art/Teaching. We are both working in the computer field now and where I have worked it is at least 50/50. I think the computer field is so desperate for people that can actually produce that gender prejudice is crumbling. I don't have any statistics but I suspect that part of the drop in % is due to A) the Baby boomlet taking women out of the market temporarily and /or dropping out of the fast track, and the current backlash against feminism ( a backlash which may finally be ending, I hope) Well, I was browsing _The Mismeasure of Woman_ the other day at the bookstore and the author claimed that the closing of the wage gap was due not to women's rising salaries, but men's FALLING salaries (due to downsizing, etc.). Perhaps now that the economy is recovering, men are making back what they lost and the disparity is growing again. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead - OK Computer "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Well, I was browsing _The Mismeasure of Woman_ the other day at the > bookstore and the author claimed that the closing of the wage gap was due > not to women's rising salaries, but men's FALLING salaries (due to > downsizing, etc.). Perhaps now that the economy is recovering, men are > making back what they lost and the disparity is growing again. That's an interesting thought. I hadn't considered it, certainly. Anyway, this is all getting a bit away from F&SF literature, and I certainly hope that equal pay for equal work is not a fantasy... I will, however, give you this URL that a friend of mine dug up: http://www.dol.gov/dol/wb/public/programs/1w&occ.htm Going on this, it looks like a lot of the disparity is the type of job. I.e., more women are in jobs with traditionally lower income. The stats in the above page include some information about part-time vs. full-time (women seem to have the edge in part-time work, but not as much as the men have in full-time), white vs. black vs. hispanic, young vs. old, etc. There's also some break-down by occupational sector. The data looks to be from 1995. That's obviously not all of it. Another friend related a story that a new manager came in and found a disparity between the salaries of men and women in his group, so he immediately brought the women up to parity. This was in the computer software industry in California. Perhaps oddly (perhaps not), female enrollment in Computer Science at the local university has been dropping for several years. I don't have the figures, though. As distressing as all of this is, perhaps we should try to get back toward F&SF... (I'll do my part by shutting up now... :-) Pax, -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:04:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Trying to find a book Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu Comments: cc: mfulton@u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This message posted for Margaret Fulton, who is not a subscriber. Please send responses directly to her at . Thanks, Chris >Hi. Sci fi is a bit outside my usual reading list but I read a book a >couple years ago that I liked quite a bit. Unfortunately, I can remember >neither the title of the book or the name of the author (which is, sadly, >typical of me). VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. > >Can somebody tell me who and what? > >Thanks, >Margaret ----- The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign the conspiracy is working. Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Denise Borgen replied: >On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, H. Tytel wrote: >> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: >> > Laura, >> > Does the article say what they figure is going on? Some kind of >> > backlash, perhaps? >> > >> > -Sean >> I can't speak for Laura, but most of what I've seen suggests that this is >> the result of gender segregation in college and other post-High school >> education - most new high-paying jobs >> are in high tech or related fields (such as graphic design, etc.). WOmen >> tend to study humanities, and to come out with little computer >> training, so we don't qualify for these jobs. >Admittedly, I came out of college with a History /Library Degree, and my >sister with Art/Teaching. We are both working in the computer field now >and where I have worked it is at least 50/50. I think the computer >field is so desperate for people that can actually produce that gender >prejudice is crumbling. Unfortunately, as something of a veteran, I see the opposite. When microcomputing was a wide-open frontier, anyone could get in. I personally know several women who were first exposed to computing because it made letters, so it was like a typewriter, so they gave it to the secretary; and in a few years she was office manager, or completely independent. Much less of that goes on in here the late Nineties. Also, the field continues to become more credentialized. Now that it's big and important, the dred Personnel Department has their less-evolved paws on it, and things continue to deteriorate. ("I've worked with eight different word processors in my twenty years of experience; I'll pick up yours with no trouble." "But you don't have experience with XXX-omatic, and that's what we have here." "That's a proprietary program. No one outside your company can possibly have experience with it." "Well, you'll be hearing from us." "[sub-vocally] Yeah, right!" Still, in proportion to the pay, status and chance to stya clean while making a decent living, DP is way out in front. Neil Rest ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:34:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keri Stone Subject: Re: Trying to find a book Comments: To: mfulton@u.washington.edu I'm pretty sure this is one of Suzette Elgin's Native Tongue books (number 3 I think) Keri Stone In a message dated 9/22/97 9:20:07 PM, you wrote: >>Hi. Sci fi is a bit outside my usual reading list but I read a book a >>couple years ago that I liked quite a bit. Unfortunately, I can remember >>neither the title of the book or the name of the author (which is, sadly, >>typical of me). VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >>singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >>found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> >>Can somebody tell me who and what? >> >>Thanks, >>Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:14:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicole Youngman Subject: Re: Trying to find a book << VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> Isn't that one of the Native Tongue books? Maybe the 2nd one? Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: book found: Earthsong In-Reply-To: <970922201136_-262852764@emout09.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's _Earthsong_ the third Native Tongue book by Suzette Elgin. fyi, the person asking said this was the title she needed. Heather, imaging the poor woman getting dozens of replies.... *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Nicole Youngman wrote: > << VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that > >singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues > >found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> > > Isn't that one of the Native Tongue books? Maybe the 2nd one? > > Nicole > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:02:27 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: donations to Tiptree on behalf of Judy Merril Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, opening the ole checkbook (R-r-r-h-h-h-h--h) Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > Pat, it seems to be official now that people wanting to remember Judy > Merril can make donations to the Tiptree Award. At least, it says so in > her obit notices. > > -nalo > > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the > small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Nalo in Locus In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Congratulations to Nalo Hopkinson for the very nice story on her work (and photograph) in the latest issue of Locus. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:06:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Nalo in Locus In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Congratulations to Nalo Hopkinson for the very nice story on her work (and >photograph) in the latest issue of Locus. Seconded. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:14:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Nalo in Locus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Tks, Mike. Haven't seen the Locus yet, but I will. -nalo On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Congratulations to Nalo Hopkinson for the very nice story on her work (and > photograph) in the latest issue of Locus. > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Comments: To: Pat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > > > > > When I was 10 there were so few female heroes. Wonder Woman, Cat Woman, > > they were more my style than Mary Poppins! Who else was there? Do you > > remember Poison Ivy -- she was an enemy of Batman who, for at least a > > few issues in the mid-sixties, had her own "short" after the cover story > > in Batman comics. > > > I don't really remember Poison Ivy. But - who else was there? Gloria > Brooks McNye in Heinlein's "Delilah and the Space Rigger", written in > 1946, who got her job under an equal-opportunity law passed in Mundania > in 1964, and proceeded to kick chauvinist ass. Dr Mary Lou Martin in > Heinlein's "Let There Be Light". Both women, I think, were classmates of > MASH's Margaret Houlihan, who I started to really like once she got a > commanding officer she could respect and stopped trying to run the camp > all be herself with that weak reed Frank Burns as her front man. > The best role models around were out of books from the early 1900s > on - Lost and GI Generation women. And don't forget - the latter might > include Edith Bunker and Mom, but it also included Hot Lips, Rosie the > Riveter, and what career women were around until the next wave of > feminism. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu Pat: The sci-fi/fantasy women of my adolescence... do you remember (was it Heinlein's) Podkayne of Mars? also the women in Stranger in a STrange Land? They were "modern" women who, in my memory, were still so defined by their sex/gender roles & their relationships to men. Came no where close to Hot Lips. Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed to powers I could never realistically aspire to. luz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:08:10 -0500 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Luz Guerra Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: Mismeasure of a Woman/wage gap discussion I haven't seen any one mention (I've been gone) the globalization of labor/the global economy as major contributing factors to falling wages for laborers all over the world, including women. This phenomenon IS F&SF related, in my mind, as it was envisioned by SF writers before it became fact. luz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:01:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin" Subject: *On* topic -- wage gap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national product, and all the rest. Few science fictions are less credible than this one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- mean the collapse of Western civilization. Suzette Haden Elgin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:23:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) Comments: To: Luz Guerra In-Reply-To: <34343498.924@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose > mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her > I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed > to powers I could never realistically aspire to. NH: Bigtime ditto. Have always wanted to be a Bene Gesserit witch. And Herbert made it seem *attainable!* Highly trained minds and power karate kicks too, yeah! -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:27:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to Suzette Elgin's comments: It occurs to me that if you pay homemakers, and count these wages in the GNP, you are therefore paying them to live. Which sounds like a wonderfully utopic situation, and fairly fantastical. The reason housekeepers and nannies and maids etc. get paid is that the wealthier folks who can afford them are paying for the privilege of not having to live like everyone else. The focus of our attention should not be on _money_, but on subsistence (since that is what we use money to obtain). Every human being is involved in obtaining subsistence through hir personal effort. The homemaker does it at home, the day-laborer does it out of the home. The homemaker provides hir own subsistence through hir efforts at home, the day-laborer simply has hir subsistence provided through the intermediary of money. Why should the homemaker get double subsistence? I dunno, because I'm certainly very far from being an economist. I do think that the amount of work American society demands of some of its working population is excessive for the pay they get, and that this creates horrible burdens on those who must both work and maintain the basics of the home. But that's a slightly different problem than the above, it seems to me. Wonderingly yours, Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:13:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970923093348.11b73368@kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:27 AM 9/23/97 -0400, Heather MacLean wrote: >The focus of our attention should not be on _money_, but on subsistence >(since that is what we use money to obtain). Every human being is involved >in obtaining subsistence through hir personal effort. The homemaker does it >at home, the day-laborer does it out of the home. The homemaker provides hir >own subsistence through hir efforts at home, the day-laborer simply has hir >subsistence provided through the intermediary of money. Why should the >homemaker get double subsistence? Eh? The only people who obtain sustenance at home are farmers or homesteaders. There are very few of those in the United States these days. And even they can only obtain SOME of the things they need in this way -- for the rest they must trade, either via barter or the use of money. The archetypal 50s-style homeworker obtains all her sustenance from the wage earner of the household. In economic terms she is the dependent, and since she produces no food and cannot buy with her own money, she is in a position of diminished power in relation to the wage earner. In a fair number of cases, the woman ends up being, in effect, the prisoner of the wage earner. The pay-for-homemakers idea is an attempt to reduce or eliminate this disparity in power. I haven't given much thought to whether it would work or what the obstacles are, but I agree with Suzette that it would be a great theme for a science fiction novel. (Of course, there are a number of science fictional works which postulate a world or worlds entirely without money. But I wonder how we can get there from here.) -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead - OK Computer "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: Trying to find a book Comments: cc: mfulton@U.WASHINGTON.EDU In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970922160412.0099b1c0@tigger.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Definitely the third volume of the _Native Tongue_ triolgy. Elgin, Suzette Haden, _Earthsong: Native Tongue III_ (New York: Daw, 1994). Howard >>Hi. Sci fi is a bit outside my usual reading list but I read a book a >>couple years ago that I liked quite a bit. Unfortunately, I can remember >>neither the title of the book or the name of the author (which is, sadly, >>typical of me). VERY briefly, it was about a woman who discovers that >>singing is all the nourishment people need, and she and her colleagues >>found schools all over the world to teach children to sing. a lot. >> >>Can somebody tell me who and what? >> >>Thanks, >>Margaret Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services Montreal, Quebec, Canada alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. The time I can think of this coming up in science fiction (although in a far future setting) was in one of Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat Books (not sure which one, I'm at work right now, and books are home). The planetary society in question pretty much valued all work, whether at home or outside as having a tangible value associated with it. A stay at home spouse making dinner for the outside worker, the worker at the factory, the child doing their chores all recieved "money" for their work. In the story, paying your spouse for cooking dinner didn't imply a lack or love or any sort of thing like that, but rather it was simply a transaction for services rendered. Overall, the society was regarded as a prosperous one, I recall. Was it U. Chicago where this sort of research was going on? I seem to recall one of their Nobel Prize winners working on the question of family and economic values, but it's a fuzzy memory. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:45:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A really interesting sf book that looked at the concept of a "housewife/mother" wage was Zoe Fairbairns BENEFITS. Fairbairns is a British socialist/feminist who has also done work in the peace movement. My review of BENEFITS from the feminist-sf web pages is: "Fairbairns' Benefits traces a future history of women in Britain. Concentrating on government influence over women's fertility, this novel portrays an all-too-possible dystopia. Particularly striking were Fairbairns' dissection early in the novel (p. 38) of double-speak phrases like "the fight against inflation" and "giving parents a free hand," phrases that ring all too familiarly to us in 1996. All in all, a neat book -- well-written, well-thought-out, and depressing as hell. An interesting spin on the same sorts of ideas as in Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale; and in fact, there were actual references to the Biblical handmaid. This in a work published six years prior to The Handmaid's Tale. -- lq, 6/21/96. " On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:01:26 -0500 > From: George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] *On* topic -- wage gap > > I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This > country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction > fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor > that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, > while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and > "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes > part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national > product, and all the rest. Few science fictions are less credible than this > one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. > > Suzette Haden Elgin > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:59:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: *On* topic (probably not on topic anymore =) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:13 AM 9/23/97 -0400, Janice Dawley wrote: >Eh? The only people who obtain sustenance at home are farmers or >homesteaders. There are very few of those in the United States these days. >And even they can only obtain SOME of the things they need in this way -- >for the rest they must trade, either via barter or the use of money. > The archetypal 50s-style homeworker obtains all her sustenance from >the wage earner of the household. In economic terms she is the dependent, >and since she produces no food and cannot buy with her own money, she is in >a position of diminished power in relation to the wage earner. In a fair >number of cases, the woman ends up being, in effect, the prisoner of the >wage earner. The pay-for-homemakers idea is an attempt to reduce or >eliminate this disparity in power. I haven't given much thought to whether >it would work or what the obstacles are, but I agree with Suzette that it >would be a great theme for a science fiction novel. (Of course, there are a >number of science fictional works which postulate a world or worlds >entirely without money. But I wonder how we can get there from here.) > Well, I didn't use the term sustenance for a reason--there are different means of subsistence, some of which, exactly, are barter (home child care, baking, errand-running, etc.). There are other elements, such as the raising of children (future providers of subsistence), and facilitating (to use a nice term) the primary subsistence provider's existence. In any case, the latter function can also be seen in terms of barter. Certainly if I ever have children and get to stay at home to raise them during their early years, I will be so extraordinarily grateful to not have to work that I'll even do the windows. =) And I will expect my partner to provide my sustenance for the most part: that will be my salary. Not to mention the benefits I expect (perhaps idealistically and certainly egotistically) for my children from having so much time with them. In that sense, these homemakers are getting paid. Some of them may even garden, and provide a little sustenance too. I'm not sure the 50s model is appropriate anymore, definitely for the US, probably for all of the first and second worlds, perhaps for most of the third world as well (these countries have other problems, but not so much the notion of the hostage-homemaker of a privileged economic class [presumably female]). Indeed, the young couples who choose to have one partner stay at home, in the present, are making deliberate privilege choices: this is a status symbol, that they can afford to do this. People who cannot find work are obviously in another category. No? Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:56:20 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Mary Poppins and SF In-Reply-To: <970919143339_-330665864@emout05.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Jeanine Pedersen wrote: > > Try buying Mary Poppins in a book store these days. Last Christmas I tried > buying it for one of my nieces. I tried Borders, Barnes & Noble, Crown & > several local stores in Chicago -- Women & Children First & Barbara's -- I > was told the same by all of them. They don't carry it, it isn't popular & > they could try special ordering it from the publisher but that it could take > 6 - 12 weeks. That's disgusting! Have you tried the used bookstores? Classic/OP book searches? Or for that matter, amazon.com?> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:00:58 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: off topic - wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Denise Borgen wrote: > current backlash against feminism ( a backlash which may finally be > ending, I hope) > The way I see it is this - feminism as we've known it in this latest wave is getting more and more unpopular and will remain so for a while. That's because it's accomplished much of what it set out to accomplish, and society as a whole would rather shelve the rest, whereas the flaws in our original ideals are starting to show. (today's problems are yesterday's solutions!) If we get into economic difficulties this will become worse and worse, as employers feel free to offer women lower wages and public opinion starts howling that women can and should run back and attach themselves to men, while men have to support women and children. I know - ludicrous in today's world, but still .... On the other hand, if we get into a situation like a major war where we need to draft all hands and the cat to help out, the situation for working women will be excellent, at least until the emergency ends. On the gripping hand, long periods of postwar peace & prosperity like the 50s have always, as far as I can tell, meant a "return to normalcy." Look at me, I'm Sandra Dee.... Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:24:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > >> Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose >> mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her >> I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed >> to powers I could never realistically aspire to. > >NH: Bigtime ditto. Have always wanted to be a Bene Gesserit witch. And >Herbert made it seem *attainable!* Highly trained minds and power karate >kicks too, yeah! > >-nalo > >"There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the >small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other Fremen women--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in practice). -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:17:26 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > > I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This > country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction > fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor > that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, > while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and > "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes > part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national > product, and all the rest. Few science fictions are less credible than this > one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. > > Suzette Haden Elgin > Lois Bujold's ETHAN of ATHOS makes that very poiont. On Athos, an all-male world, the costs of child-rearing are factored into the economy to the point where Ethan dismisses the idea of an army of clones as costing too much to rear to maturity. He's amazed and a bit disgusted when Elli Quinn tells him there are people out there in the wormhole nexus willing to rear children for no pay at all except bare subsistence. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Jill Gillham wrote: > The time I can think of this coming up in science fiction (although in a > far future setting) was in one of Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat > Books (not sure which one, I'm at work right now, and books are home). > The planetary society in question pretty much valued all work, whether at > home or outside as having a tangible value associated with it. A stay at > home spouse making dinner for the outside worker, the worker at the > factory, the child doing their chores all received "money" for their work. > In the story, paying your spouse for cooking dinner didn't imply a lack or > love or any sort of thing like that, but rather it was simply a > transaction for services rendered. Overall, the society was regarded as a > prosperous one, I recall. Hmm. I think I remember the one you are talking about however I might be wrong. I remember it a bit differently. This was a utopia. Definitely a utopia. Everyone got paid for the TIME that they worked, essentially on an effort basis? With increasing technology, this meant less and less work for more and more stuff. Most people worked a few hours a week (2-4 or something). The society was also completely non-violent and very loosely connected to the materialistic world because, get this, no one really owned anything. essentially, everything was rented/communal or something. When "bad people" came and made trouble the people would just leave, including the people serving the food and drinks. (SPOILER) It turned out that the whole thing was possible because of a great big AI computer system that kept track of everything in a fair and equitable manner and essentially (i think) kept humanity from slipping down the slippery slope into greed, cheating, and beurocracy (however that word is spelled). I liked it alot. It seemed on the same level of reality as herland, but I liked that too. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:31:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady > Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother > Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very > powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other Fremen > women--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in practice). And yet... I did not see it as very feminist. Perhaps better than some but, (I am about to try to remember details, forgive my mistakes) There were two ancient schools, Bene Geserit and the other one that handled interstellar travel. women => language, men => math. women => natural, men => self-chosen mutated freaks. Women less power than men. Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's "gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. The universe at large: Women fundamentally different than men. Especially in the mystical parts of the Bene Geserit psychic stuff. Women can't go to the place that the man can (though Paul is the only male Bene Geserit). So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is better than much, but I think there is better still. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:56:31 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stefanie Jenssen Subject: introduction, recommendation, Butler, bloodchild Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everybody, I'm new to this list - and I am really glad I found it. My name is Stefanie Jenssen, I am interested in fsf - although I only started to read science fiction four years ago. I have been a mother for two weeks now and still recovering from landing on this new planet. I like best works dealing with the complicated topic of human-human, human-alien relationships. In that respect I read a great collection lately: "Off Limits, Tales of Alien Sex", ed. by Ellen Datlow, Ace Books, New York 1997. In my opinion, Octavia Butler is one of the great "masters" when it comes to describing relationships. "Kindred" is one of my favourites, and the short story "Bloodchild" reveals her talent for disturbing her readers. She maintains that "Bloodchild" is a love story, while "Kindred" is not. I have difficulties not seeing the humans in "Bloodchild" as absolutely dependent and enslaved by the Tlic. All in all, when rereading, I always find it disturbing, although I can see Butler point about a possible partnership between the alien and the human. But love? If you want to read "Bloodchild" on the web, you can find it here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/bloodchi.htm I am looking forward to listening and talking on this list. Stefanie *IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98* Stefanie Jenssen Co-chair at Intercontact 98 The Norwegian Science Fiction Convention GoHs: Pat Cadigan and Gwyneth Jones *IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98**IC98* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:25:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > And yet... I did not see it as very feminist. NH: No, not very. But I do remember women scientists (specifically among the Bene Gesserit) and women guards. The Fremen culture was quite sexist, you're right. Polygyny but no polyandry, women basically chattel. Same for the royal houses. Those last two at least felt deliberately written that way, as did the Tleilaxu culture, which hated women. The Dune novels comprised a complex agglomeration of cultures, some of which were more progressive than others, but all of which were imperfect. I didn't mean to imply that _Dune_ was a particularly feminist book (didn't feel anti-feminist, just not written from a feminist place). But I think we were talking about taking our role models where we could best find them, and I found even the slimiest of the Bene Gesserit wonderfully appealing. I do remember being quite turned off at a point in, I think, _God-Emperor of Dune,_ where there was a pretty homophobic statement. Damn, of course I can't remember what it was, and I'm at work. Something about sgl (same-gender loving) people having some kind of brain defect. -nalo "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: [snip] > imperfect. I didn't mean to imply that _Dune_ was a particularly > feminist book (didn't feel anti-feminist, just not written from a > feminist place). But I think we were talking about taking our role > models where we could best find them, and I found even the slimiest of > the Bene Gesserit wonderfully appealing. I aggree. Sexist but not anti-feminist. Possibly even better than that given certain readings, but I hesitate to go there. Practically all of the societies (except possibly internal Bene Geserit) were very sexist. About the role-model thing. Do people really identify with their sex so much? I tend to find my role models where the author intended regardless of sex. Of course I am not starved for role-models of my sex. Perhaps what we really need is sufficient role-models of both sexes for everyone. That is one reason I like to read feminist/queer fiction, so that I can feel like/identify with/"become" as many different types of people as possible. On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? I could not help wanting to be Paul because he was the real main character and had all of the powers/strengths of his mother and more besides (other than the ability to give birth though that was not stressed at all. Paul was the ultimate Bene Geserit and he could not be a woman because women were unable to reach his level. One more thing about the Bene Geserit, weren't they only able to deal with the water of life at least in part because they sort of transferred the ability from one to the next while Paul dealt with it without help? -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? >I could not help wanting to be Paul because he was the real main character >and had all of the powers/strengths of his mother and more besides (other >than the ability to give birth though that was not stressed at all. Paul >was the ultimate Bene Geserit and he could not be a woman because women >were unable to reach his level. > >One more thing about the Bene Geserit, weren't they only able to deal with >the water of life at least in part because they sort of transferred the >ability from one to the next while Paul dealt with it without help? > >-- Joel VanLaven I'd much rather be his mother. Paul had wayyy too much pressure on him and by the end of his life, practically every move he made was interpreted to have some religious significance. I could imagine some sect developing on something as small as Paul picking his nose in public, theorizing as to why he did it and going nutty from there. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:24:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her >husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably >messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. Uh-uh--women fought, too. Also, it was more that Paul took responsibility for the man's family than that he won the wife. It's more like this: you kill a Fremen brother, you don't get off scot-free--you take responsibility for his family so they're not left so high and dry. > >Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political >pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's >"gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. > What about the Fish Speakers? (mighta been in later books) > >So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power >given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is >better than much, but I think there is better still. > >-- Joel VanLaven Not here. I saw them as pretty much eqpal, but in different ways. There wasn't much of a prohibition on women doing security, being soldiers or mentats. There was, though, a sort of prohibition on men being in the B.G. Sisterhood, but even that isn't very sexist, interpreting the term loosely. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:12:50 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: *On* topic -- homemakers As I recall, there was an interesting take on this topic in Lois McMaster Bujold's 'Ethan of Athos' which posited an all-male society (with ectogenetic births) in which--I thought plausibly and unlike most sf/fantasy all-male societies--nurturance was valued both economically (in terms of valuable 'social credit' points rather than hard cash, as I recollect) and socially--since a society could hardly survive and perpetuate itself successfully without it. The eponymous hero found it hard to understand the situation in dualled-sex social systems. The book, though fairly light, and perhaps best defined as a 'caper', seemed to me to have thought through this background detail with more intelligence and imagination than most who have devoted large thick serious society-building novels to single gender societies. Lesley Hall Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com PS have there been some problems with the server? my weekend messages got bounced ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:16:04 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) >On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Luz Guerra wrote: > >> Then there was Lady Jessica of Dune -- she was a powerful woman whose >> mental powers were greater than many male physical pwoers. I liked her >> I think because her powers were attainable, through training, as opposed >> to powers I could never realistically aspire to. > >NH: Bigtime ditto. Have always wanted to be a Bene Gesserit witch. And >Herbert made it seem *attainable!* Highly trained minds and power karate >kicks too, yeah! > >-nalo > >"There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the >small fruit that you eat." > -my aunt >Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady >Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother >Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very >powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other >Fremenwomen--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in >practice). >-Sean But the Messiah-figure was still male! (and had 'natural' ?godgiven powers, unlike Jessica's which had had to be worked for, trained at) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:31:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Bloodchild In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > In my opinion, Octavia Butler is one of the great "masters" when it comes > to describing relationships. "Kindred" is one of my favourites, and the > short story "Bloodchild" reveals her talent for disturbing her readers. Yes, I just went to the site you recommended (great site, by the way) and read "Bloodchild." It was indeed disturbing, and certainly thought-provoking if one tries to consider it a love story. I see the same ambiguity here as is in the Xenogenesis Trilogy. There too, the alien beings are in a dominant position vis-a-vis the humans. And yet, there is a sense, not only of submission, from the humans, but also, I think, a lovte of the Oankali for certain human characters. And certainly, I think, for the reader, there is a sense of sympathizing with the Oankali characters in trying to save/change those pesky humans. Because the Bloodchild story is less developed (being a short story) the reader doesn't get as much of a perspective from the Tlin point of view. Therefore, it is easy to see the humans in the story being used merely as useful pets (or breeders)... I'm with you, Stefanie, in having trouble seeing the love immediately, but given the complexity of the quite-similar situation in the Xenogenesis trilogy, I see the possibility. Anyone interested in talking about the Trilogy? Cheers, pam Pamela Bedore Simon Fraser University Burnaby, BC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I will introduce myself before answering this since it is my first post. My name is Stacey, I'm 32 and I am a stay at home mom and I home-school my daughter, Alia (can anyone guess where I got this name?). I have loved science fiction and fantasy ever since I got my hands on my first Andre Norton book (*Iron Cage* and it is still on my bookshelf) when I was about 12. On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, George Elgin, Suzette Haden Elgin wrote: > I don't see the issue of women and wages as off topic; not at all. This > country is run by the principles of a science fiction (or science fiction > fantasy, depending on which version is supported) in which all the labor > that a woman does in her own household is entirely without monetary value, > while exactly the same labor done by "housekeepers" and "maids" and > "nannies" and "home healthcare workers," etc., has to be paid for, becomes > part of the Social Security system, is counted in the gross national > product, and all the rest. First, housekeepers, maids and nannies are working for other people who can afford to pay for their services. They don't work for their employers 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Their services are limited (a maid probably wouldn't change diapers but a nanny would, a nanny probably wouldn't prepare a menu for a dinner party but a housekeeeper would). > Few science fictions are less credible than > this > one, but we allow it to go on in perpetuum and lift not a finger to change > it. I think we badly need science fiction portraying alternate US societies > in which a woman's labor in her own household (or a man's, for that matter, > in those cases where it is a man who does the "homemaking") has to get > minimum wage just like any other labor, and the money that changes hands > must be counted into national statistics like any other money, must count > toward Social Security, and all the rest. That would let us explore the > question of whether following that policy would -- as has been proposed -- > mean the collapse of Western civilization. I'm not sure that I would want to use my tax dollar to allow people to stay home and clean house (or do you know some other way of paying home-makers?). I don't even want to imagine the abuses that would inevitably occur if people were paid to stay home. My husband and I made the decision that I would stay home and care for our daughter. No one really benefits from this choice except our family. No one else benefits from my clean floor, clean laundry, washed dishes etc. except my family. Why should anyone else pay for a choice that my family made? Living on one income is difficult but having me home with our daughter is worth the sacrifices. > Suzette Haden Elgin > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:14:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > > About the role-model thing. Do people really identify with their sex so > much? NH: Yeah, sometimes. Though mind you, I also identified with Marvel Comics' Thor...'nuff said. Being a woman is only one facet of my identity, and it's less of a problem nowadays finding affirming images of women, but when you see yourself reflected so little in the outside world, it's healing when you do find those images. I've spoken before on this listserve about how much of a kick I got out of a Black, mouthy, be-dreadlocked, eccentric woman as the lead (Whoopi Goldberg) in Jumping Jack Flash. > > On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? NH: :) Thank you for this question. I immediately answered, "Jessica," then had to figure out why. I think it's because she determinedly carved out a life for herself, despite whole worlds of people trying to tell her what to do, and she *lived.* Paul's character was attractive, because he had all those powers that made him even a super-being; all man, and even more woman than the women, but ultimately, he wasn't able to maintain human connections. He became a larger-than-life figure who spawned an intergalactic jihad, and when he couldn't deal any longer, he turned hermit. Jessica kept dealing, kept her human connections. Joel, answering this question told me a lot about what's important to me. "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Bloodchild In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would love to hear people talk about Butler's works. One of the reasons I signed on here was to find out more about her--I read somewhere that one of here books or series is utopian, and as far as I know she is the only woman of color I have come across who writes fem Utopian stuff. However, I didn't have the time this summer to read everything of heres. I did read WILD SEED, which I really liked, and would like to hear about her other stuff. rudy ~~~~~hmmmm. does my lack of a .sig indicate something profound about my personality? or does it rather reflect a deeper truth?~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:44:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: *On* topic -- wage gap In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Hi, Stacey. Welcome. On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Stacey Holbrook wrote: > > My husband and I made the decision that I would stay home and care for our > daughter. No one really benefits from this choice except our family. No > one else benefits from my clean floor, clean laundry, washed dishes etc. > except my family. Why should anyone else pay for a choice that my family > made? NH: Because there is an economic benefit to society for the work you do in maintaining a home. If I had someone to do my homemaking for me for free, not only would I have more hours to spend at work or writing, I wouldn't have to pay for the care I was receiving. The decision that you have made is not only to be home with your daughter (obviously that has far more value to you than the purely economic, but it's still another societal saving, because otherwise, somebody else would have to be paid to look after her and socialize her into being a participating member of society); it's also a decision to do for free the basic work that allows a society to function. Without the daily slog work of cooking and cleaning, we'd fall apart. Certainly my apartment's on the verge of it. My office, like so many other places, has had to downsize. One of the ways they did so was to get rid of some 'support' positions, i.e. the people who did the filing, the mailing, the phone calls, the data entry, updating and maintaining records; the housecleaning, in effect. I now have to spend a third more of my day doing that very necessary and important work. If the 'support' positions in an office have a very real economic value (and realise that I only keep talking about money because it's the way in which our society barters and exchanges one service for another), why shouldn't the 'support' positions in a household? Especially those that involve caring for growing humans? Maybe we can talk about a different medium of exchange than money, but I can't get away from the conclusion that however you pay or don't pay for it, the work has real economic and societal value. I'm gonna bring this back to sf, and speak on a bit of a tangent. My novel that's coming out next summer is my first, and I was learning about novel-writing as I did it. I started with a setup of a young woman with an unplanned-for baby living at home with her grandmother. And the story stuck there, until I asked myself the question, "How do these women support themselves?" Once I started inventing answers to that question, the world of the novel began to flesh out, in some exciting ways. Then I went to the Clarion workshop, where Chip Delany pointed out that a story will always feel slightly unreal if your main characters have no visible means of support. Ding! A light went on in my head. That really works for me, and now I almost always try to figure out the economics that allow my protagonists (whatever their gender) to exist, even though the specific details don't always make their way into the story. I read some of Chip's non-fiction, and discovered that he'd come up with this when he himself was trying to figure out some of the reasons why female characters in some of the novels he was reading seemed thinly drawn. He realised that often the writer had omitted to anchor the character in the economics of her world. Chip explains it much better than I do, but it really struck a chord with me. -nalo > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:41:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: administrativia & list info Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm reposting the subscription & basic list information. I've revised it slightly, to include some more guidelines for how to behave on a list. (good manners & netiquette) - i welcome comments & feedback on this. i think we probably all share the goal of keeping the list quality high and enjoyable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Welcome to Feminist SF/Fantasy & Utopia ! List Purpose, Guidelines & Instructions Welcome to FeministSF - a list for fans, writers, activists and scholars to discuss feminist science fiction. Your list owner is Laura Quilter (lquilter@igc.apc.org) (and Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu for emergencies). To unsubscribe, mail a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe feministsf If you have any problems contact the list-owner. For more information about Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopian literature, please check out the femsf web pages at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/ -------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THE FEMINIST SF, FANTASY & UTOPIA LISTSERVE Interested in talking to other people about the works of Ursula Le Guin, Marge Piercy, Suzy McKee Charnas, Elisabeth Vonarburg, Joanna Russ, Octavia Butler and many others? Want to find out more about these authors, and other writers like them? The Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopia ListServe is a space for discussion of this literature. It is a mailing list, which means that every email will go to all subscribers mailboxes. It is a primarily unmoderated list, which means that I will not be selecting or censoring comments. People can ask whatever questions they want about the topic, with one broad exception. Because I have been on many listserves relating to feminism which have inspired anti-feminists to harass other members, or engage the entire listserve in discussions about the nature, purpose, etc., of feminism, I wish to make it clear from the outset that this listserve is for discussion of the literature. Discussion of feminism as a philosophy belong on a feminist discussion group. Discussion of feminism, as it pertains to literature or particular works of literature, is perfectly appropriate. I will remove people from the listserve who behave in an inappropriate manner after one warning. General Guidelines for ListServe Behavior: * Don't "flame" other people - be considerate & polite * If you have something to say, say it! Other people are interested in your opinion -- that's why they joined a discussion list. * Conversely, if you don't have anything to say, don't say it. On a moderate-to-heavy traffic listserve, it is not helpful to send postings saying "I agree" or "yeah!" 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This list began 3/2/97. -------------------------------------------------- Subscribing and Unsubscribing Use the online subscription request to subscribe only or send a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: subscribe feministsf Your Name or unsubscribe feministsf Conversing with Fellow Participants To send a note to the discussion list and all its participants: send a message to: feministsf@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: Whatever your message is -------------------------------------------------- Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you subscribe to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you will find the necessary instructions below. 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All commands must be sent to the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. It is very important to understand the difference between the two, but fortunately it is not complicated. The LISTSERV address is like a FAX number that connects you to a machine, whereas the list address is like a normal voice line connecting you to a person. If you make a mistake and dial the FAX number when you wanted to talk to someone on the phone, you will quickly realize that you used the wrong number and call again. No harm will have been done. If on the other hand you accidentally make your FAX call someone's voice line, the person receiving the call will be inconvenienced, especially if your FAX then re-dials every 5 minutes. The fact that most people will eventually connect the FAX machine to the voice line to allow the FAX to go through and make the calls stop does not mean that you should continue to send FAXes to the voice number. People would just get mad at you. 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More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. - updated 3/12/97 lq, revised 9/23/97 lq ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:55:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Mary Poppins and SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those who were discouraged by trying to get Mary Poppins: Classic titles, especially Children's, but other types as well, often go through periods of low availability when they are about to be repackaged. A whole mess of the Mary Poppins books are in the front of the (er, I wasn't paying close enough attention) Harper? children's catalog for the Winter list. This will mean a renewed push in the stores. For the record, I was in the group that found Mary Poppins rather stern and scary, even with cake crumbs turning cartwheels on her hat brim. Maybe it was her denial of all the fantastic stuff that gave such a negative impression. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: patricia johnston Subject: Island, (Marta Randall) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, Have just finished reading Island (Marta Randall). Must say I did not understand the book. Perhaps it should not be understood, just pondered on. If anyone has read the book, could you offer your views? Thanks. Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: gilchris@virtu.sar.usf.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandra Gilchrist Organization: New College Subject: all male societies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of books that we might consider would be welcome. Thanks in advance. Sandra Gilchrist New College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >But the Messiah-figure was still male! (and had 'natural' ?godgiven powers, >unlike Jessica's which had had to be worked for, trained at) >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Even so, Paul had to work to develop these powers or he never would have known what to do with them. Jessica taught him what to do with them, a natural role for a mother, I should think. Would it have been more equal if the Messiah-figure were female? Or would that just be a shift in power, not a balance? -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:40:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Bloodchild In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970923181423.006b8050@mailbox.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I would love to hear people talk about Butler's works. One of the reasons >I signed on here was to find out more about her--I read somewhere that one >of here books or series is utopian, and as far as I know she is the only >woman of color I have come across who writes fem Utopian stuff. However, I >didn't have the time this summer to read everything of heres. I did read >WILD SEED, which I really liked, and would like to hear about her other stuff. >rudy > >~~~~~hmmmm. does my lack of a .sig indicate something > profound about my personality? or does it > rather reflect a deeper truth?~~~~~~~~ I think Butler'd love to hear about this. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, emrah goker wrote: > > I totally agree with everything you say. Yet what I wanted to draw > attention to was what we, as citizens of the Turkish Republic, witnessed: > In most of the provinces of Turkey, a woman older than 13 cannot have a > walk out freely, if she has some *bold* clothing. Furthermore, that a > woman can work is like obsceneity to an average Muslim man. Because, woman > is _weak_, she has Allah-given domestic responsibilities. Sounds a lot like my home country Tajikistan. Except that: 1) Women there work (a strange result of interaction between Muslim-dominant culture and 70 years as a part of a Communist country). 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a cop. Except that you can sue a cop). If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I would f. you go-o-od! and so on). It can happen any time you go somewhere alone. Any time you get out of your home, to be precise. And that's during peaceful times. If you are lucky to get a civil war going in your country, things really go to the extreme. Because there is nothing that a 20 year old guy with an AK-47 feel he's not entitled to. If you are a woman, you have to deal with it every day,no matter what you think about it. Most of people just don't think about it, taking it as part of being a woman, along with a smaller size of meal or menstrual cramps. Anyway, there is a way to deal with it. It took me about 19 years, but I figured it out. First, you should never get mad and never get scared. And act as confident as you can. So, when a nut on the street walks up to you asking whether you'd go with him, you just have to look him in the eye and calmly say "No". I still don't understand why it happens, but it always does -- the guy would look away, with an expression like he suddenly remembered he forgot his keys in his car, and quietly dissappears. If he has an AK-47 or simply is wearing that green-and-brown military stuff, however, then it's more complicated. You'd have to act very nice, and talk to him for a while, ignoring the propositions by acting like you are too clueless to understand what he's talking about. If you get to the point when he actually asks you whether you are married, you should not lie if you don't have a ring, but telling him that you are going to get married pretty soon would usually work. But better yet, pay attention while going anywhere, and if you see a militiaman, or several of them, 20 feet around your course, go to the opposite side of the street. If you did not manage to avoid it, God help you. You can still survive, if you have enough nerve and can lie assertively. Like a friend of mine once surrounded by two patrolmen (who were supposed to protect the streets, by the way) got away by telling them that her father was the head of the city police. The guys knew she was bluffing, but there was no way they could know for sure. And if they actually raped the daughter of the police chief, they can very well go and kill themselves, because otherwise they would very likely have to regret they were ever born. So, if you have a bigger man with a gun, or act like you do, you have a chance. This is just a little bit of "The Rules of Survival for Females in My Country" I could write a book about. Sorry for going off-subject again. It's just Emrah's posting invoked some sentimental memories. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: <199709190933.TAA10106@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Nimal Jayawardhana wrote: > The testacles need to > remain away from the body during hot times lest the sperm die from > overheating. I guess when diving pressure and cold are big issues so being > sheltered inside a warm body is a good place for testacles. > > Salutes, |\| | |\/| ~8>P (nfjayawa@darwin.ntu.edu.au) > I've heard that if a guy puts his testacles in a glass with very warm water for and hour, he'll be infertile for three days. This was mentioned a a means of birth control, and I did not take it seriously. Could that be true, or is it the same as douching with Coke? Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:29:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > >I've heard that if a guy puts his testacles in a glass with very warm >water for and hour, he'll be infertile for three days. This was mentioned >a a means of birth control, and I did not take it seriously. Could that >be true, or is it the same as douching with Coke? > >Marina Interesting idea, testicle as tea bag. Not something I'd pursue personally, but I bet it'd make for some very interesting-tasting tea (yech :-/). -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:43:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: Re: all male societies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I am a frequent viewer of the list, but a rare contributor. I have a >student doing a project on science fiction who is examining alternate >forms of reproduction. We have several examples of all female societies >solving reproduction in interesting ways, but can uncover only one all >male society in utopian sf where reproduction is a major issue. This is >in the book _Ethan of Athos_ by Lois M. Bujold. Other suggestions of >books that we might consider would be welcome. > >Thanks in advance. > >Sandra Gilchrist >New College Well, this isn't about an all male society, but it isn't about an all female one either... Thre's a typically striking short story by James Tiptree Jr. about the social attitudes consequent on haploid reproduction in human beings. One of Tiptree's distinctions is that she wrote about reproduction as a biological function, rather than (conventionally) as a sociosexual one. Unfortunately I can't remember the title of that story and my Tiptree books are not at hand. Does this ring a bell, anybody? -- Susan Armstrong anariska@mortimer.com Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > > Of course, Alia (St. Alia of the Knife) was even more powerful than Lady > > Jessica. Once she grew up, that is. Then there's the Reverend Mother > > Gaius Helen Mohiam--a little slimy, but still powerful. Finally, a very > > powerful woman was Paul Muad'Dib's wife Chani (and most of the other Fremen > > women--_now_ that's a society that is an example of equality in practice). > > And yet... I did not see it as very feminist. Perhaps better than > some but, (I am about to try to remember details, forgive my mistakes) > > There were two ancient schools, Bene Geserit and the other one that > handled interstellar travel. women => language, men => math. women => > natural, men => self-chosen mutated freaks. Women less power than men. > > Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her > husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably > messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. > > Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political > pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's > "gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. > > The universe at large: Women fundamentally different than men. > Especially in the mystical parts of the Bene Geserit psychic stuff. Women > can't go to the place that the man can (though Paul is the only male Bene > Geserit). > > So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power > given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is > better than much, but I think there is better still. > > -- Joel VanLaven > I agree with Joel (who seems to have a fabulous memory to me). I remember Jessica saying something to Chani like "they call us concubines now but history, history will call us wives". That is women are only valauable insofar as they are legitimate adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. Jessica also channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all that repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just desiring to be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). In terms of being a feminist organisation, the Bene Gesserit don't cut it: they distribute their members to whatever royal family seems likely to produce the mystical male figure, regardless of any personal horrors they cause.So we have women as sites of reproduction, and pawns becuase of it, yet again. And their power is achieved through traditional methods like feminine wiles). And the "Kawitz Haderach" (?) has the power to see into both male and female pasts: a male can subsume the female, but the opposite is just not possible. Sounds very familiar to me. Women are not powerless in Dune, but I don't think that having a woman with power is neccesarily the real criteria that should be used to measure feminism (I drag out the Margaret Thatcher example yet again). HOW that power is used is more vital. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:48:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Joel? A response to this one? Sean's right that women in most Dune societies could fight, could be scientists, but I agree with you; most of the cultures seemed basically sexist, only I can't formulate concrete arguments about it this pre-coffee morning. As I recall, though, the Fish Speakers were not an independent sect. They were subordinate to the men, sort of trained fighting machines, the way I've heard King Shaka Zulu's army of women described. -nalo On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her > >husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably > >messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. > > Uh-uh--women fought, too. > Also, it was more that Paul took responsibility for the man's family than > that he won the wife. It's more like this: you kill a Fremen brother, you > don't get off scot-free--you take responsibility for his family so they're > not left so high and dry. > > > > >Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political > >pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's > >"gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. > > > What about the Fish Speakers? (mighta been in later books) > > > > > >So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power > >given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is > >better than much, but I think there is better still. > > > >-- Joel VanLaven > > Not here. I saw them as pretty much eqpal, but in different ways. There > wasn't much of a prohibition on women doing security, being soldiers or > mentats. There was, though, a sort of prohibition on men being in the B.G. > Sisterhood, but even that isn't very sexist, interpreting the term loosely. > > -Sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:56:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Jesus. On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter > how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the > street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, > beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k > off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he > will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to > a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a > lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is > bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a > cop. Except that you can sue a cop). > > If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would > not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also > disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you > until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, > where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I > would f. you go-o-od! and so on). > > It can happen any time you go somewhere alone. Any time you get out of > your home, to be precise. And that's during peaceful times. If you are > lucky to get a civil war going in your country, things really go to the > extreme. Because there is nothing that a 20 year old guy with an AK-47 > feel he's not entitled to. If you are a woman, you have to deal with it > every day,no matter what you think about it. Most of people just don't > think about it, taking it as part of being a woman, along with a smaller > size of meal or menstrual cramps. > > Anyway, there is a way to deal with it. It took me about 19 years, but I > figured it out. First, you should never get mad and never get scared. And > act as confident as you can. So, when a nut on the street walks up to you > asking whether you'd go with him, you just have to look him in the eye > and calmly say "No". I still don't understand why it happens, but it > always does -- the guy would look away, with an expression like he suddenly > remembered he forgot his keys in his car, and quietly dissappears. > > If he has an AK-47 or simply is wearing that green-and-brown military > stuff, however, then it's more complicated. You'd have to act very nice, > and talk to him for a while, ignoring the propositions by acting like you > are too clueless to understand what he's talking about. If you get to the > point when he actually asks you whether you are married, you should not > lie if you don't have a ring, but telling him that you are going to get > married pretty soon would usually work. But better yet, pay attention > while going anywhere, and if you see a militiaman, or several of them, 20 > feet around your course, go to the opposite side of the street. If you > did not manage to avoid it, God help you. You can still survive, if you > have enough nerve and can lie assertively. Like a friend of mine once > surrounded by two patrolmen (who were supposed to protect the streets, by > the way) got away by telling them that her father was the head of the > city police. The guys knew she was bluffing, but there was no way they > could know for sure. And if they actually raped the daughter of the > police chief, they can very well go and kill themselves, because > otherwise they would very likely have to regret they were ever born. So, > if you have a bigger man with a gun, or act like you do, you have a chance. > > This is just a little bit of "The Rules of Survival for Females in My > Country" I could write a book about. Sorry for going off-subject again. > It's just Emrah's posting invoked some sentimental memories. > > Marina > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > happens to be selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:03:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Retractible Male Anatomy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > > Interesting idea, testicle as tea bag. Not something I'd pursue > personally, but I bet it'd make for some very interesting-tasting tea > (yech :-/). NH: Yech? YMMV, obviously. :) (Couldn't let that one pass.) -nalo > > -Sean > "There are two kinds of dates; the kind that you go out with, and the small fruit that you eat." -my aunt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:13:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: economics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >>where Chip Delany pointed out that a story will always feel slightly unreal if your main characters have no visible means of support. Ding! A light went on in my head. That really works for me, and now I almost always try to figure out the economics that allow my protagonists (whatever their gender) to exist, even though the specific details don't always make their way into the story. Yes, yes, yes!! As an editor (assistant, anyway), I read so many manuscripts and published books, in both the fantasy and SF genres, where the writer came up with a lovely original conceit , but could only come up with a world where no one or no society could support themselves. It drives me bonkers! One of the current World Fantasy Award nominees is in this category. I'm not saying that every short story or even every novel has to go into exhaustive detail about economics, but if you're going to postulate a world where it is winter all the time, I'm going to wonder what people eat! Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Dune, role-models and Sex (was Re: Wonder Woman ...) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > > > > > About the role-model thing. Do people really identify with their sex so > > much? > > NH: Yeah, sometimes. Though mind you, I also identified with Marvel > Comics' Thor...'nuff said. Being a woman is only one facet of my > identity, and it's less of a problem nowadays finding > affirming images of women, but when you see yourself reflected so little > in the outside world, it's healing when you do find those images. I've > spoken before on this listserve about how much of a kick I got out of a > Black, mouthy, be-dreadlocked, eccentric woman as the lead (Whoopi Goldberg) > in Jumping Jack Flash. But shouldn't everyone get that same kick? regardless of their actual physical configuration? Subversive, attitude correcting, slap-me awake casting choices are some of my favorites. (though I like to believe that I AM awake and it is the others who need to be woken up.. :) Do you root for an oppressed person because they are oppressed, or because you share one of their oppression-inducing traits? And if it is because they are oppressed, is it because you were/are oppressed (or something similar, like you attended junior high school and weren't completely normal)? Or, is it a deep-seeded social upbringing of love of the outsider, the "little guy", and so on (however slanted normal society is towards only seeing white hetero-sexual men as said underdogs) I think I can see all three in myself. > > On the topic of Dune, who would you rather have been, Paul or his mother? > > NH: :) Thank you for this question. I immediately answered, "Jessica," > then had to figure out why. I think it's because she determinedly carved > out a life for herself, despite whole worlds of people trying to tell her > what to do, and she *lived.* Paul's character was attractive, because he > had all those powers that made him even a super-being; all man, and even > more woman than the women, but ultimately, he wasn't able to maintain human > connections. He became a larger-than-life figure who spawned an > intergalactic jihad, and when he couldn't deal any longer, he turned > hermit. Jessica kept dealing, kept her human connections. Joel, > answering this question told me a lot about what's important to me. Since I didn't read anything with the Jihad (I think. The war was on Dune and seemed done), Paul was still well-connected, and so on, perhaps I have a very different view of the characters. We must be talking about two completely different stories. Mine ended at the end of Dune (I started the next one but the story from Dune had crystallized into a whole that was final and I couldn't shatter it (which the next book seemed to want to do)) In my world the other Dune books are taked onto and modify the story while in yours, I only saw a piece of the story. (I think) -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:08:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> -- Joel VanLaven >> > >I agree with Joel (who seems to have a fabulous memory to me). I remember >Jessica saying something to Chani like "they call us concubines now but >history, history will call us wives". That is women are only valauable >insofar >as they are legitimate adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. Be careful of saying "only" in this context, since that's not the case. Otherwise all the B.G.s would be adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors. In terms of being a >feminist organisation, the Bene >Gesserit don't cut it: Who said they were? they distribute their members to whatever royal >family seems likely to produce the mystical male figure, regardless of any >personal horrors they cause. So we have women as sites >of reproduction, and pawns becuase of it, yet again. And their power is >achieved through traditional methods >like feminine wiles). And the "Kawitz Haderach" (?) has the power >to see into both male and female pasts: a male can subsume the female, >but the opposite is just not possible. And who wanted the Kwisatz Haderach in the first place? This genetic manipulation was a plan of the Bene Gesserits. The women who were sites of reproduction knew this and agreed to it. Look what happened to Jessica when she deviated from what the Reverend Mothers wanted: she got bitched out big-time. Simply-put, the B.G. were seeking power and, according to the prophecy, that power would come in the form of a man who could "go where we cannot". What the B.G. wanted to do was control that man, and they came very close to doing so. You can say it's sexist that the B.G. couldn't control that man, but neither could the Tleilaxu or the Harkonnens or the Emperor or the Fremen or the Mentats. Heck, even the Guild couldn't control him. The only ones that had some measure of control over Paul, and that only in that he would listen to them, were Chani and, perhaps, Jessica. Sounds very familiar to me. Women >are not powerless in Dune, but I don't think that having a woman with >power is neccesarily the real criteria that should be used to >measure feminism (I drag out the Margaret Thatcher example yet again). >HOW that power is used is more vital. > Seconded. >Tanya. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:11:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jessica also >channels most of her energies into her son: the mother figure self- >sacrificing so that her son can become a real hero. And how about >Irulan's misery because Paul doesn't love her? She channels all that >repressed passion into books and language, but 'really' just desiring to >be a 'real' woman (ie loved and desired by Paul). Isn't that what mothers do in their mother context: make sure their kids, male or female, do better than they? As for Irulan, I felt pretty bad for her, too. She, I can say honestly, was a true pawn, but I still don't see that as sexist, just sad for her. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: jpassick@voyager.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jpassick Organization: Gateway 2000 Subject: Quit sending mail to me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please stop sending your posts to me. I'm not interested in your topics and the volume of crap you keep sending me is flooding my e-mail server. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: jpassick@voyager.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jpassick Organization: Gateway 2000 Subject: Stop sending mail to me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please quit sending your posts to me. You are flooding my e-mail server. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Wonder Woman (was Re: Are we talking about Feminist SF?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Joel? A response to this one? Sean's right that women in most Dune >societies could fight, could be scientists, but I agree with you; most of >the cultures seemed basically sexist, only I can't formulate concrete >arguments about it this pre-coffee morning. > >As I recall, though, the Fish Speakers were not an independent sect. >They were subordinate to the men, sort of trained fighting machines, the >way I've heard King Shaka Zulu's army of women described. > >-nalo > >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >> >Fremen. Women owned by men (Paul won his first wife by killing her >> >husband) polygamous, not polyandrous (as I recall and I am probably >> >messing up the formal definitions) Men were the warriors. >> >> Uh-uh--women fought, too. >> Also, it was more that Paul took responsibility for the man's family than >> that he won the wife. It's more like this: you kill a Fremen brother, you >> don't get off scot-free--you take responsibility for his family so they're >> not left so high and dry. >> >> > >> >Social structure. Royal title through male descent. Women political >> >pawns (emporer's daughter), prostitutes, and playthings (emporer's >> >"gifts"). Mentats: men. Security: men. Soldiers: men. >> > >> What about the Fish Speakers? (mighta been in later books) >> >> >> > >> >So, my assesment is that it is extremely sexist. With some small power >> >given to some freakish women that no one much likes. Perhaps that is >> >better than much, but I think there is better still. >> > >> >-- Joel VanLaven Nalo, Here's from the _Dune Encyclopedia_ (copyright 1984 by Dr. Willis E. McNeely, from Berkley Books): "The first step leading to the establishment of the Fish Speakers as a military force came in the regency of Alia. In 10210, Alia brought about the dissolution of the Fedaykin by various legal strategems, and within a year or two afterwards, Paul's elite force no longer existed as a military organization. The Fedaykin were never a very large group, consisting of perhaps 50,000 men at its maximum, but their effectiveness was all out of proportion to their numbers. They provided the spearhead of many campaigns and furnished an experienced cadre around which later battle groups were formed. By disbanding them, Alia sought to forestall the possibility of a military hero's winning popular support and challenging the rule she exercised through her priesthood and civil bureaucracy. The harvest of her labor was reaped by Leto II." So they were started by a woman and not under women then, but after Alia was gone, Leto II took over and then, yes, they were under male control. -Sean (ask me most anything about Dune and I can come up w/an answer, or find one in the Encyclopedia--I love it!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: jpassick@voyager.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jpassick Organization: Gateway 2000 Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quit sending mail to me. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:30:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: On Femininity and SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: Jesus. I would hope He (Jesus) has little, if anything, to do with this, but I basically agree. This is disgusting. -Sean > >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > >> >> 2) A girl cannot walk around alone freely since the age of 10, no matter >> how she is dressed. And when some creep comes up to you at the >> street, grabs you by the hand and says something like: "Come with me, >> beauty", God help you if you try to say something back. Not even "F__k >> off". Even if you call him "stupid" or in any other way "be rude", he >> will hit you (you are lucky if once). You are not supposed to be rude to >> a man, and he will consider himself doing you a favor by "teaching you a >> lesson". So next time you would not express disrespect to someone who is >> bigger and stronger (the same as if in America, you'd try to fight with a >> cop. Except that you can sue a cop). >> >> If in this situation, you try to walk away, he will follow you. He would >> not probably hit you if you don't provoke him, but ignoring a man is also >> disrespect. So he (or they, men usually hunt in groups) will follow you >> until they get tired saying all kinds of things they can think of (Hey, >> where are you going so fast, pretty? You sure you don't want me to f. you? I >> would f. you go-o-od! and so on). >>