"FEMINISTSF LOG9710E" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:14:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Teresa Tavormina" Subject: Le Guin, Dispossessed, and Time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A long reply from the lurker shadows --- Ah, Rudy, you've hit a real chord for me with the question of time in Le Guin's work -- _The Dispossessed_ especially, but lots and lots of the other parts of her oeuvre as well. Absolutely with ethical and life-view implications for me too. I've just been rereading some of her early work, and was struck by the use of "long years" (of different sorts) in both _Rocannon's World_ (800-day years, with a "warmyear" and a "coldyear," each of which begins at an equinox, at least in the "outlandish," "midmannish" calendar of the Northern Angyar) and in _Planet of Exile_ (400-day "moonphases" in 60-moonphase long Years, with almost all children born in Spring or Fall and with massive tribal migrations from the Summer lands to the protected Winter cities). I was also struck by how the story of "Semley's Necklace," the opening chapter of _RW_, is similar to the Japanese folktale of Urashima that underlies/parallels "Another Story, or A Fisherman of the Inland Sea," and to the time-return narrative in "Winter's King." The cruelties and abysses of time (tragic or redeemed) stand out sharply in all of these, and no doubt other of her stories. I wonder if what I've been told was a fairly significant age-differential between Theodora Kroeber and Alfred Kroeber might have any relevance to this recurrent motif. And I also wonder how the churten-theory stories of the last few years, with their interest in the experience of sequence, time, narrative, and meaningful coherence, play in here. Your comments certainly got me thinking more coherently about these relatively recent observations, though I don't have anything like a grand unified interpretation on them yet, except for thinking about what difference time structures make to people culturally and about how important being "in time" or "being in time" is in Le Guin's thinking. But you also reminded me (thanks!!) of some of the many passages from Le Guin's work that have been carved into my mind's heart for years, because of the way they crystallized a whole set of related values for me -- perhaps already implicit in my loose and baggy worldview, but in no way as well articulated before I found them in Le Guin's works. Here are a few of the most unforgettable ones to me (which I think support your thesis very well, though the second one is a "hard saying"): >From _LHD_: "It is always the Year One here. Only the dating of every past and future year changes each New Year's Day, as one counts backwards or forwards from the unitary Now." (And then she goes on to tell a tale that takes a year, and returns us with the public quest completed to the season of year where we began -- late spring, the end of the month of Tuwa -- and on in early summer, perhaps almost moving out of time, into the private quest to Therem's family hearth. Shades here to me of the fairy tale "year and a day" structure: cf. _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_ for one of its most powerful medieval uses.) >From "Direction of the Road" (this one is about Eternity, I suppose, and mortality, but how can one think about either without some notion of time playing a role too?) -- the oak tree narrator speaks, having just killed a man who has driven headlong into it at high speed: "If it is necessary to the Order of Things, I will kill drivers of cars, though killing is not a duty usually required of oaks. But it is unjust to require me to play the part, not of the killer only, but of death. For I am not death. I am life: I am mortal. If they wish to see death visibly in the world, that is their business, not mine. I will not act Eternity for them. Let them not turn to the trees for death. If that is what they want to see, let them look into one another's eyes and see it there." And, of course, from _TD_, just my favorite one of many many remarks about time therein: "Fulfillment, Shevek thought, is a function of time. The search for pleasure is circular, repetitive, atemporal....It comes to the end and has to start over. It is not a journey and return, but a closed cycle, a locked room, a cell. Outside the locked room is the landscape of time, in which the spirit may, with luck and courage, construct the fragile, makeshift, improbable roads and cities of fidelity: a landscape inhabitable by human beings. It is not until an act occurs within the landscape of the past and future that it is a human act. Loyalty, which asserts the continuity of past and future, binding time into a whole, is the root of human strength; there is no good to be done without it. So, looking back on the last four years, Shevek saw them not as wasted, but as part of the edifice that he and Takver were building with their lives. The thing about working with time, instead of against it, he thought, is that it is not wasted. Even pain counts." [End of Chapter 10] I'm looking forward a lot to hearing thoughts from other people on this topic too, having already enjoyed Janice Dawley's reminder of the connection to Taoism. Since I'm reading in Digest form, there may well be a whole bunch of things waiting for me early tomorrow morning -- a little asynchronicity of our own, like Hideo's time-wrinkled message in "Another Story," eh? Thanks for the stimulating question -- Tess P.S. Rudy, I've done some work in the past on the metaphor of temporal physics in _TD_, which you may have run into already if you've done a literature search (perhaps useful to you, perhaps not). If you haven't run across it, feel free to drop me a private note and I'll send you the biblio cite for it. Also, in connection with the religious dimension of your analysis, another passage from _TD_ that has shaped how I articulate my own sense of the world is the place in Chapter 1 where Shevek is explaining that the Anarresti have religion (albeit not established religion) -- "No religion? Are we stones, on Annares?" and "Of course, it is one of the Categories: the Fourth Mode. Few people learn to practice all the Modes. But the Modes are built of the natural capacities of the mind, you could not seriously believe that we had no religious capacity? That we could do physics while we were cut off from the profoundest relationship man has with the cosmos?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:53:58 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Butler's SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some of Octavia Butler's earlier works are: _Kindred_ (in which a 20th century African American woman who is married to a white man finds herself mysteriously--the method is never explained--transported back to the antebellum South. It turns out that when a certain white child (when she first meets him he's a child) is in danger, she is moved back to save him--because he is one of her ancestors. The trips become longer, and she spends more time as a "slave." Her husband is transported back once as well. It's an interesting book: Butler notes it sort of gets categorized differently, reflecting what she considers her three main groups of readers: as African American literature, as time travel (SF), and as a feminist text. (I've read her comments in an interview published in a collection edited by Larry McCaffrey.) She wrote the _Patternmaster_ series--I've never gotten all of those (some went out of print rather quickly)--and cannot recall all the titles except of the last one, _Mind of My Mind_. This series is interesting because the protagonist is a sort of vampire (more psychic than physical consumption) named Doro. He was born in a part of Africa millennia ago, and he engages in a breeding project (humans with certain psychic abilities are tastier?) with humans. Different books detail his adventures over a long period of time--but the end of the series comes when his project (which moves from Africa to America, following the Diaspora) finally produces Mary, a young African American woman who is able to destroy him and sort of mind meld with other psychics and create a new "race." (I'm a bit blurry on the details because it's been a few years). Interesting stuff on "race" since Doro (an African "black") preys off humans of any color; his breeding program ignores racial differences and is based on psychic ability. The psychics are dysfunctional, though, and only Mary can bring them together, but what results is a multicultural "culture" that is still based on exploiting "Mutes" (those humans without any psychic abilities--"Mutes" are enslaved by telepathic means). I've written about Butler's tendencies to undercut the seventies feminist assumption that "women" are naturally non-hierarchial, more nurturing, less violent, etc. She consistently creates wonderfully strong female protagonists--that undercut some of the more naive assumptions of some feminists about the "nature of women." The novel also questions the assumptions that previously expressed groups will be "better" than the exploiters once they gain power. Butler also has some other novels out (if you're interested, let me know and I'll try to remember to bring a list from home) using biological themes--I rememberr reading her work I think in the seventies and thinking "Wow, this is totally different from anything else I've ever read"--she was probably the first African American writer I read (my undergraduate English work was Completely Canonical), yet I somehow categorized her as "SF" for years! I think her work is fascinating (as someone else noted) because of its themes, content, and plots--she manages to introduce some really radical ideas while using fairly conventional narrative strategies. (This issue of form vs. content interests me; I think sometimes in my discipline, the assumption is made that a writer must use experimental form to get across any "new" idea, and yet "women" and "minority" writers consistently show that is not the case in their work.) Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:17:31 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: hard tech novels In-Reply-To: <199710290216.VAA05703@pip1.pipcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, silk wrote: > > I've got a request for list members. I was planning on teaching Kim > Stanley Robinson's _Red Mars_, but my university bookstore can't get it > (although it was in print when I ordered it). I was wondering if any of > you had any suggestions for a moderately feminist or at least humanist, > recent (last decade or so) SF novel that deals with hard technology and is > *not* cyber-anything. I've got a couple of cyberpunk novels on the course > already, so I really need a replacement that's currently available (in > Canada) and preferably in a mass market format. If anyone has any ideas, > I'd be grateful. > Nicola Griffith SLOW RIVER. Tells you more about wastewater treatment than you ever wanted to know. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:19:31 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: Indigo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Laur, Erin M. wrote: some stuff about Cooper's Indigo series. I read them all. I agree with you that Indigo's constant pining over her lost love got tedious. I just wanted to shake her and say all right already, go out there and kick some more demon butt! And after the first couple of episodes the reader got the hang of it pretty quickly - but unfortunately, usually Indigo took longer to catch on. Also I thought the quality of the stories declined quite a bit - I didn't care for any of them really after the winter story - Troika I think. I did enjoy the interaction between Indigo and her sidekick, in fact I wished there were more of it. If the wolf (Grimka?) represented Indigo's wisdom and common sense, she surely should have paid more attention to it. All of the Indigo books are in my pile to take back to the used bookstore. Without spoiling it too much, I thought the final book did have a somewhat satisfying feminist closure, although it didn't redeem the weakness in the last few books. OK, I did read and mostly enjoy them so I can't complain too much. Now that I think about it, I can't off the top of my head name a better female-protagonist quest/adventure series... maybe Jo Clayton's Moon... series? I'm not usually into fantasy so I'm no expert here. Anyone else care to suggest something better than Indigo? -- Jennifer Krauel Director of Product Marketing jkrauel@actioneer.com 415.536.0715 fax 415.882.4372 http://www.actioneer.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ++ Actioneering: the art and science of getting it done ++ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:23:54 -0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Another book to teach from MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Octavia Butler PARABLE OF THE SOWER. It's a Heinleinian survival story - girl grows up in times of crisis, survives & succeeds. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:54:05 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: vampire recommendations >Did I miss one of Hambly's? The two I am aware of are, Those Who >Hunt the Night and Traveling With the Dead. Where does Immortal >Blood fit? Immortal Blood must be the UK title for one of these (possibly Those Who Hunt the Night). The reasons why books are given different titles in the UK and the US completely elude me! Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:04:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: hard tech novels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, silk wrote: I was wondering if any of > > you had any suggestions for a moderately feminist or at least humanist, > > recent (last decade or so) SF novel that deals with hard technology and is > > *not* cyber-anything. > > > Nicola Griffith SLOW RIVER. Tells you more about wastewater treatment > than you ever wanted to know. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews I second this nomination. It was really refreshing to encounter an SF novel with a hard science context that wasn't space travel or computerana. And speaking as a former city-hall reporter who covered a multi-million-dollar sewage treatment project from inception to construction, and already learned more than I ever wanted to know about this stuff, I was impressed with Griffith's projection of future waste treatment technology. It's a sort of "Nerves," a la Del Rey, for a world where pollution is as much a threat as radiation. (However, at least one reader I know was distressed by the shadows of child abuse and the abusive (prostituted) sex in the novel, and the way these issues were dealt with but not quite resolved.) -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there really is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it." - A.A. Milne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:00:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: vampire recommendations In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > >Did I miss one of Hambly's? The two I am aware of are, Those Who >Hunt the > Night and Traveling With the Dead. Where does Immortal >Blood fit? > Immortal Blood must be the UK title for one of these (possibly Those Who Hunt > the Night). > The reasons why books are given different titles in the UK and the US > completely elude me! > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > Several reasons. Every publisher has a list of genre buzz words which are thought to work in titles, ie boost sales. The buzz words for British readers aren't always the same as for American readers. American publishers sometimes think British titles are too literary or poetic. Sometimes one publisher simply doesn't like another publisher's title. Sometimes another book has been recently published in one country with the same or a similar title and the publisher wants to avoid confusion. Sometimes the author gets her/his way with one publisher and not with the other. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: hard tech novels In a message dated 97-10-30 07:45:49 EST, David Christenson writes: << (However, at least one reader I know was distressed by the shadows of child abuse and the abusive (prostituted) sex in the novel, and the way these issues were dealt with but not quite resolved.) >> These things are, in my opinion, rarely really resolved. So that's how I dealt with it. I agree, though, that it's not an easy subject. Trying to persuade a publisher to buy it (a novel about sewage and abuse, oh, yum!) was not the most fun thing I ever did. Glad you liked it. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:39:25 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: vampire recommendations Every publisher has a list of genre buzz words which are thought to work in titles, ie boost sales. The buzz words for British readers aren't always the same as for American readers. I would find this more logical if the titles were more buzzy! Very seldom the case. American publishers sometimes think British titles are too literary or poetic. You mean, like 'Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters'?!!! Sometimes one publisher simply doesn't like another publisher's title. Is that a good reason? Sometimes another book has been recently published in one country with thesame or a similar title and the publisher wants to avoid confusion. I guess there's some validity to that one. Sometimes the author gets her/his way with one publisher and not with the other. It's a tough life being an author and not being able to name one's own production... Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:19:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: G/L & American Air petition Comments: To: WSCC-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Read and please respond!! American Airlines is a major sponsor to and supporter of groups like GLADD, the Human Rights Campaign, the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund, the AIDS Action Foundation, DIFFA, AmFAR, and scores of community-based groups representing gays and lesbians. It is also the first airline to adopt a written non-discrimination policy covering sexual orientation in its employment practices. In an unusual joint letter released to the media on Friday, March 14th from the Family Research Council, Concerned Women of America, American Family Association and Coral Ridge Ministries, American Airlines was openly criticized about their policy. Radical right leader Beverly LaHaye also went on Christian "talk radio" on Friday to blast American Airlines because "American's sponsorship of homosexual 'pride' events constitutes an open endorsement of promiscuous homosexuality." She and the other groups have written Bob Crandall at American to complain that the airline has "gone beyond mere tolerance" of gays and lesbians. The full article appears in Friday's Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and possibly picked up by other newspapers around the country. It has come to the attention of the gay and lesbian community that American Airline's switchboard and e-mails are being bombarded now by homophobic and hateful callers who have been urged by LaHaye and others to DEMAND the company terminate its gay-friendly policies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please add your name to this petition and forward it to as many people as you can. To add your name just cut and paste this onto new mail and send it out! ***If you are the 25th, 50th, 75th, 100th, etc. person to sign this petition then also please forward this to American Airlines at: Webmaster@amrcorp.com *** To American Airlines: We, the undersigned, support your gay/lesbian rights policies and commend you for your efforts in ending discrimination. Thank you for your dedication to such issues and please continue to remain active in the struggle to end discrimination. 1. Marybeth Kurtz, Philadelphia, PA 2. Jen Faust, Goucher College, Balto. MD 3. Sarah Pinsker, Goucher College, Balto. MD 4. Rebecca Olin, Amherst College, Amherst MA 5. David Beckman, Amherst College, Amherst, MA 6. Amanda Austin, Smith College, Northampton, MA 7. Joan Prusky, Detroit, MI and Northampton, MA 8. Elizabeth Kennedy, NYC and Smith College, Northampton, MA 9. Lindsey Stowe-Berns, NYC and Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH 10. Jill Rothstein, NYC and Oberlin College 11. Julie Cross, Miami and Oberlin College 12. Chris Morris, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH 13. Katherine Shorb, Tokyo and Oberlin College 16. Aric Stewart, Carleton College, Northfield, MN 17. Nadezhda Murray, Carleton College, Northfield, MN 18. Geoff Ruth, Northfield, MN 19. Laura Gibson, University of Vermont, Burlington, VT 20. Shelly Pirroni, University of Vermont, Burlington, VT 21. Peter Liu, University of Vermont, Burlington, VT 22. Rebecca Rosenblum, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ 23. Kathryn Pollak, University of Texas, Houston=20 24. Donna White, University of Texas, Houston 25. Lara Staub, University of Texas School of Public Health, Houston 26. Melissa Phipps, University of Texas School of Public Health, Houston 27. Nicole Ordway, University of Texas School of Public Health, Houston 28. Bruce Greenawalt, New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM 29. Matt Carlson, New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM 30. Heather Daniel, Chicago, Illinois 31. Tony Breed, Chicago, Illinois 32. Eric Tschetter, Chicago, Illinois 33. J. J. Fenza, Chicago, Illinois 34. Kristine Sundberg, Chicago, Illinois 35. Christina Kowalchuk, Boston, MA 36. Andrew Custer, University of Rochester, NY 37. Randall Hayes, Rochester, NY 38. Charles Powell, Lexington, KY 39. Monika I. Cassel, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI. 40. Jennifer Tilton, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 41. James Kreines, University of Chicago, Ann Arbor MI 42. Cynthia Palmer, Moorhead State University, Moorhead, MN 43. Nicole Madsen, Moorhead State University, Moorhead, MN 44. Sara Pool, North Park College, Chicago, IL. 45. Marta Johnson, North Park College, Chicago, IL 46. Lara C. Warg, North Park College, Chicago, IL 47. Jason A. Cox, Indianapolis, IN 48. Patricia Rini, San Francisco, CA 49. Helga Grayson, San Francisco, CA 50. April Hunter, San Francisco, CA 51. David Alves, Oakland, CA 52. Nelsy Dominguez, Santa Fe, NM 53. Caryn Scotto, Santa Fe, NM 54. Edith Corra, Albuquerque, NM 55. Christine Stout-Holmes, Albuquerque, NM 56. Kim Straus, Santa Fe, NM 57. Lon Murphy, Santa Fe, NM 58. Wayne Muesse, Milpitas, CA 59. Arvada Darnell, Menlo Park, CA. 60. Merri M. Monks, Chicago, IL 61. Douglas Hammett and Gary Lair (in a loving, comitted, and monogamous relationship for 14 years), Kihei, Maui, Hawaii 62. Dearca Devo, Kihei, Maui, Hawaii 63. Heather Beadle, Wailuku, Maui, Hawaii 64. Donna Lieding, Glendora, CA 65. George & Marion Hollingworth, Arcadia, CA 66. Mike Altiere, Cortland, OH 67. Samuel Altiere, Haiku, Maui, Hawaii 68. Chris Lieding, Haiku, Maui, Hawaii 69. John Montfort, Wailuku, Hawaii 70. Gary Petersen, Wailuku, Hawaii 71. David Pelletier, Palm Springs, CA 72. Mark Chataway, London, UK (mark@interscience.co.uk) 73. Dr. Seth Berkley, New York, NY, USA 74. Laura Hickey, New York, NY 75. Cameron Elliott, Seattle, WA 76. Jean-Paul Montagnet, Seattle, WA 77. David Bryant, Seattle, WA 78. Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti, Seattle, WA 79. M. Cathy Angell, Bellingham, WA 80. Sally Friedman, Seattle, WA 81. Joan Raphael Greathouse, Seattle, WA 82. Denise A. Klein, KleinDoerr, Consultants, Seattle WA 83. LaVonne Douville, Seattle, WA. 84. Janet Staub, Seattle, WA. 85. Maryah Fram, Seattle WA. 86. B.J. Erkan, Seattle, WA. 87. Patricia Erkan, Seattle, WA. 88. Pamela Nault, LMP, Seattle, WA 89. Liz Lasater, Seattle, WA 90. Donna Ryan, Oakland, CA 91. Kim Fox, Walnut Creek, CA 92. Connie Herrick, Oakland, CA 93. L. Jill Ivie, San Francisco, CA 94. H. Batey, Berkeley, CA 95. Carolyn Breedlove, Berkeley, CA 96. Lisa D. Wade, New York, NY 97. Andrew Hostetler, Chicago, IL 98. Lisa Marie Pickens, Chicago, IL 99. Therese Quinn, University of Illinois at Chicago 100. Sarah Reynolds, Seattle, WA 101. Christina Perez, Chicago, IL 102. RoiAnn Phillips, Chicago, IL 103. Pam Phillips, Santa Clara, CA 104. Ann Lougee, Los Altos, CA 105. Win Gould, San Jose, CA 106. Anne Cohen, Pasadena, CA 107. Davida Foy Crabtree, South Windsor, CT 108. John A. Nelson, Gloversville, NY 109. Rev. Jen Bergen, Cumberland, ME 110. Cathy Wolinsky, Yarmouth, ME 111. David Jernigan, Berkeley, CA 112. Laura M. Kreofsky, Oakland, CA 113. Karen Hartwig, Oakland, CA 114. Daniel Ng, Oakland, CA 115. Richard Hart, San Francisco, CA 116. Jessica Hart, Sausalito, CA 117. Andrew Davis, San Mateo, CA 118. Mary Rose, Fremont, CA 119. Steven Cason, Laguna Beach, CA 120. Joe Segal, Phoenix, AZ 121. Jessica Segal, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH 122. Christian Fitchett, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH 123. Stephanie Krenrich, New York University, New York, NY 124. Jeptha Runyon, Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT 125. Elise House, Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT 126. Marianna Litovich, Northfield Mount Hermon, Northfield, MA 127. Shalini Deo, Northfield Mount Hermon, Northfield, MA 128. Emily Perloff Northfield Mount Hermon, Northfield, MA 129. Matt Latuchie Springfield Twp. High, Erdenheim, PA 130. Alison Shaw, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 131. Maggie Gillet, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 132. Myra Ozaeta, Seattle, WA 132. Sevilla Claydon, Seattle, WA 133. Robin Nass Brandeis, Seattle, WA 134. Scott Howard, Seattle, WA 135. Denise Sparhawk, Seattle, WA 136. Joe Mabel, Seattle, WA 137. James Hays, Seattle, WA 138. Ivy Jessica Horn, Seattle, WA 139. Heather MacLean, Kent State University, OH ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:02:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Other Louise Cooper In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971030193007.3e3790c6@pop.kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Louise cooper's other major series was the Time Master/Chaos Gate one. Published order has been: The Time Master: 1.The Initiate 2.The Outcast 3. The Master The Chaos Gate Trilogy 1. The Pretender 2. The DEciever 3. The Avenger Star Ascendant (which is listed as a prequel for the Timemaster books) They deal with an epic struggle between Order and Chaos through the years. (without giving away too much plot) I really enjoyed the Timemaster ones, which led me to buy her Indigo series, which I didn't like quite so much. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:51:25 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: vampire recommendations In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Lesley Hall wrote: > Every publisher has a list of genre buzz words which are > thought to work in titles, ie boost sales. The buzz words for British > readers aren't always the same as for American readers. > > I would find this more logical if the titles were more buzzy! Very seldom the > case. > > American publishers sometimes think British titles are too literary or > poetic. > > You mean, like 'Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters'?!!! > > Sometimes one publisher simply doesn't like another publisher's title. > > Is that a good reason? > > Sometimes another book has been recently published in one > country with thesame or a similar title and the publisher wants to > avoid confusion. > > I guess there's some validity to that one. > > Sometimes the author gets her/his way with one publisher and not with > the other. > > It's a tough life being an author and not being able to name one's own > production... > > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > Hey, I never said the reasons for changing a title made much sense, just that they were the reasons. What I've been told, by authors, editors and distributors, is that what the American publisher wants is a title that's instantaneous identifiable by genre just from the title. Thus, To the Stars is clearly science fiction, Sword of the Warlock is clearly fantasy, Darkness Lurking is clearly horror, and Love's Passionate Fury is clearly romance. Who cares if the title is any good or if it's a cliche or if it's been used before. The point is that the illiterate putting the book in the rack at the grocery store will be able to tell which two book-wide column it goes into and the reader at the mall store where most of the books are shelved spine out will be able to tell whether s/he wants to pull it off the shelf for a look see. Which leads one to ask how Nalo ever got away with using an old island song title like Brown Girl in the Ring for an SF novel? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:20:04 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499/ Subject: Title Changes (Re: vampire recommendations) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > The point is that the illiterate putting the > book in the rack at the grocery store will be able to tell which two book-wide > column it goes into and the reader at the mall store where most of the books > are shelved spine out will be able to tell whether s/he wants to pull it off > the shelf for a look see. Mike- Isn't that just *slightly* off-base? I don't see the justification of slamming a worker just because they work at a grocery store or the mall...perhaps you should say it's because the publishers don't think that the American public can't figure it out. The publishers are catering to the same mentality that the newspapers cater to: the myth of the average sixth grade reading level in this country. The publishers could care less about the workers - they (for the most part) aren't the consumers. - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:53:02 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: publishing woes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have also read numerous authors, especially in SF, discuss how they have little or not input regarding cover art or blurbs (some of which are horribly written, or give away important information, etc.), but that many of the readers who write them assume the writer makes all those choices. Possibly the same situation exists regarding titles. I know one of the 'worst' covers out there is on a paperback edition of Octavia Butler's novel _Dawn_. The novel has an African American protagonist, Lilith, but the cover art depicts a completely fair-skinned/anglo looking woman. Donna Harraway has written about this cover and SF's "presumption of whiteness" --I cannot imagine Butler would have made the choice, but I doubt she had any! Joanna Russ has an essay out about the assumptions people make about famous feminists, especially writers. She lists examples of people who write her: they blame her for covers, whether or not the book is available in their town, ask her to send them multiple copies, and, finally, in one amazing story tells how a student wrote asking for copies of all her books, and answers to a whole list of question. When Russ refused and wrote back politely saying that she should ask her teacher how to do basic research, the girl's older sister wrote her to say how horrible she (Russ) was and how the girl was completely devastated and had given up her life's ambition to be a writer. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:35:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Cadfael and medieval history Comments: cc: Robin Reid In-Reply-To: <199710241705.RAA13845@etsuodt.TAMU-Commerce.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has your friend read _The Domesday Book_? I'd be curious to know her opinion of the depiction of Plague England. Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:42:57 -0500 Reply-To: Nalo Hopkinson Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: vampire recommendations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Which leads one to ask how Nalo ever got away with using an old island > song title like Brown Girl in the Ring for an SF novel? NH: [lol] Was just wondering that myself as I read your post. I'd been using it as a working title, but it grew on me. And I guess props go to Betsy Mitchell (editor-in-chief of Warner Aspect) for not suggesting I change it for _Voodoo Queens of the Forgotten City,_ or something. Probably best to ask Betsy, but my sense is that Warner Aspect is consciously trying to broaden the readership of sf, so maybe they're trying to make it more likely that people who normally wouldn't consider genre fiction might pick their titles off the shelf. I won the Warner Aspect First Novel contest because Warner Aspect and C.J. Cherryh liked my writing; however when Betsy realised after I'd won that I am Afro-Caribbean, she was very pleased; potential for reaching a whole new market, I guess. I'd like that. Maybe there's also the fact that _Brown Girl_ combines elements of sci fic and fantasy, so a title won't classify it easily. BTW, "Brown Girl in the Ring" is actually a ring game that I played as a child. The people forming the ring sing the song while the child in the middle performs a trick that the others try to copy. The object of the game is to make it a challenging trick. The line from the song that goes, "Show me your motion," essentially means "Show us what you can do." It seemed an apt metaphor to me for a protagonist who has to learn "what she can do" really quickly or perish. But there are many sf titles that don't scream genre. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:01:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Geoffrey Sperl Organization: Wayne State University Subject: Re: vampire recommendations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > But there are many sf titles that don't scream genre. Complete agreement. For example: _Flowers for Algernon_ , _Ammonite_ (or _Slow River_, for that matter), or _Something Wicked This Way Comes_. I'd go so far as to say that Brin's title _The Postman_ (which I'm reading now) doesn't scream genre...not like _2001: a space odyssey_ or _Caves of Steel_. I think the more stock titles are the ones that sci-fi writers get hit with, not science fiction writers... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:33:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laur, Erin M." Subject: Re: vampire recommendations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Complete agreement. For example: _Flowers for Algernon_ , _Ammonite_ (or >_Slow River_, for that matter), or _Something Wicked This Way Comes_. I'd go >so far as to say that Brin's title _The Postman_ (which I'm reading now) >doesn't scream genre...not like _2001: a space odyssey_ or _Caves of Steel_. >I think the more stock titles are the ones that sci-fi writers get hit with, >not science fiction writers... > Is Flowers for Algernon really considered Science Fiction? I haven't read it in a real long time, but I don't remember classifying it that way. Isn't that the novel similar in plot and theme to the movie Awakenings? >Erin > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:46:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Geoffrey Sperl Organization: Wayne State University Subject: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laur, Erin M. wrote: > Is Flowers for Algernon really considered Science Fiction? I haven't > read it in a real long time, but I don't remember classifying it that > way. Isn't that the novel similar in plot and theme to the movie > Awakenings? I can see connections between _Awakenings_ and _Algernon_, but I still would have to place _Algernon_ in SF...it's a fringe piece, yes, but definitely SF...of course, Oliver Sachs would probably say that the events in _Awakenings_ were almost science fiction... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:22:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: title changes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Geoffrey Sperl wrote:>>The publishers are catering to the same mentality that the newspapers cater to: the myth of the average sixth grade reading level in this country. The publishers could care less about the workers - they (for the most part) aren't the consumers. Geoffrey-- Do you work in publishing? If not, please refrain from making such inflammatory comments. We do care about bookstore workers, if only for the most base of reasons: handselling and word of mouth. We also do not cater to a sixth grade reading level, except for those publishers selling children's books. It is true that sometimes titles are changed, with the agreement of the author. We are in this business to sell books, and if a short, snappy genre title tends to sell more copies of a book than a poetic title, let's go with the genre title! And it's not just the consumers that have to be sold on a title, it's also the all-important wholesale and chain buyers, who are notoriously conservative in their buying habits. The consumers can't buy the books if they don't find them in the stores, and a book with an odd title and/or an unattractive or weird cover is much less likely to make it into the stores. It's very easy to blame the publishers for some current lamentable lack of quality in SF, but the blame can just as easily be spread around to the consumers, who seem to prefer to buy media titles, the increasingly bland supermarket-like bookselling industry, and even to the writers, because I certainly haven't been deluged in quality manuscripts from new authors during my tenure here at DAW. Debra Euler Assistant Editor, DAW Books ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:43:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: title changes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Debra, what's your perspective on the title of my novel? I am unable to assess it objectively as a title, because I grew up with the game; it has a lot of resonance for me. But I realise that it won't for most sf readers. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: vampire recommendations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erin M. Laur wrote: >Is Flowers for Algernon really considered Science Fiction? I haven't >read it in a real long time, but I don't remember classifying it that >way. Isn't that the novel similar in plot and theme to the movie >Awakenings? The events of Awakenings really happened. There is an excellent book of the same name by Oliver Sacks that goes into the scientific details as well as the stories of several of the patients (only one of whom was the primary focus of the movie). Flowers for Algernon is very much science fiction in that it posits an experimental drug that increases intelligence, something that doesn't exist today. The main character follows a similar arc to de Niro's character in Awakenings in that they both are considered sub-normal at the beginning, rise steeply to a creative, energetic high, then subside once again to their former state (or close to it). But the underlying conditions are different. Now that I'm thinking of it, the reality Sacks talks about in his book is weird and thought-provoking enough that it almost feels like science fiction! ----- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead - OK Computer "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:20:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) In-Reply-To: <345A4392.2A42418@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Geoffrey Sperl wrote: > Laur, Erin M. wrote: > > > Is Flowers for Algernon really considered Science Fiction? I haven't > > read it in a real long time, but I don't remember classifying it that > > way. Isn't that the novel similar in plot and theme to the movie > > Awakenings? > > I can see connections between _Awakenings_ and _Algernon_, but I still would have > to place _Algernon_ in SF...it's a fringe piece, yes, but definitely SF...of > course, Oliver Sachs would probably say that the events in _Awakenings_ were > almost science fiction... > "Flowers for Algernon" was first published in the Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction as a shorter work. Is that genre enough? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:50:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Title Changes (Re: vampire recommendations) Comments: To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" In-Reply-To: <34508463.16461EC6@geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > > The point is that the illiterate putting the > > book in the rack at the grocery store will be able to tell which two book-wide > > column it goes into and the reader at the mall store where most of the books > > are shelved spine out will be able to tell whether s/he wants to pull it off > > the shelf for a look see. > > Mike- > > Isn't that just *slightly* off-base? I don't see the justification of > slamming a worker just because they work at a grocery store or the > mall...perhaps you should say it's because the publishers don't think that the > American public can't figure it out. The publishers are catering to the same > mentality that the newspapers cater to: the myth of the average sixth grade > reading level in this country. The publishers could care less about the > workers - they (for the most part) aren't the consumers. > > - Geoffrey > You know, I didn't actually say anything about the people who work at grocery stores or the mall for that matter, not one word. I was speaking of the people hired by the distributors to put books on the racks in the grocery stores, not the same people at all in most cases. And Geoffrey, dear, it's really better if I say what I mean, not what you'd like me to mean, don't you think? ;^) It's the people who work for the distributors, many of whom are in fact very poorly educated (because the job doesn't pay very well), who often know nothing or next to nothing about the books they are racking and thus need help getting them in the right spots. You're quite right though, calling them "illiterate" was an overstatement. Marginally literate would be more accurate. Thanks for once again keeping me on the straight and narrow. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:03:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: vampire recommendations Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > BTW, "Brown Girl in the Ring" is actually a ring game that I played as a > child. The people forming the ring sing the song while the child in the > middle performs a trick that the others try to copy. The object of the > game is to make it a challenging trick. The line from the song that > goes, "Show me your motion," essentially means "Show us what you can > do." It seemed an apt metaphor to me for a protagonist who has to learn > "what she can do" really quickly or perish. Yes, in fact the day before yesterday I was going through a catalog of books for Early Childhood Education teachers and I saw one called Brown Girl in the Ring and Other Afro-Caribbean Action Rhymes, or some such, which is what made me think of your book. > But there are many sf titles that don't scream genre. > > This is true, of course. My earlier post was something of an exaggeration, although an exaggeration based on fact. The classier publishing houses and editors are likely to be more flexible, particularly when dealing with a book that they see as literary or somewhat cross-genre. Name authors are also likely to get more leeway with their titles. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:22:15 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499/ Subject: Re: Title Changes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debra- It's all right. I can understand completely. To answer your question: Yes, I do work in publishing. It's a small publishing company out of southeast Michigan, but I work in publishing all the same. Actually, I should have made an addendum to that: IMHO, *most* publishers cater to that myth - I point to the changes made from Louisa May Alcott's _Little Women_ in the novelization of the film. The text was dumbed down, even though the defense was that it was being presented for younger readers. I, however, have never met anyone who (if they've read the book) who hadn't read it by time they were 11 (I was 9). Penguin and its groups are actually the ones who are probably best in not catering to it. The catch-22 that business and consumers put themselves into are, very often, hot buttons for me. Mike's "illiterate" comment really bristled my fur (not that I like "marginally literate," either - I know plenty of workers who are well read...but then, I'm also in an area with an abundance of used book stores). Sorry again, Debra. - Geoffrey