Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9711A" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:08:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: Re: publishing woes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Joanna Russ has an essay out about the assumptions people make about >famous feminists, especially writers. [snip] >a student wrote asking for copies of all her books, >and answers to a whole list of question. When Russ refused and wrote back >politely saying that she should ask her teacher how to do basic research, >the girl's older sister wrote her to say how horrible she (Russ) was and how >the girl was completely devastated and had given up her life's ambition to >be a writer. > >Robin That doesn't sound like anybody making assumptions about feminists -- more like an acute case of spoiled bratdom. :-) -- Susan Susan Armstrong * Vancouver, Canada * anariska@mortimer.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 08:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: publishing woes In-Reply-To: <08082385913432@mortimer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Susan Armstrong wrote: > > That doesn't sound like anybody making assumptions about feminists -- more > like an acute case of spoiled bratdom. :-) > > -- Susan NH: Or like a big sister being fierce in the defense of her sib, even though she doesn't understand the situation. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: publishing woes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Key phrase, "doesn't understand the situation." I work for a government archives, and it's routine for us to get letters, e-mails and phone calls from well-meaning (at least I choose to think they are well-meaning!) people who honestly can't understand why our staff can't do all their research for them - preferably for free, of course. I'm sorry that incident happened, but it sounded awfully familiar.... Nina Osier Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Susan Armstrong wrote: > > > > > That doesn't sound like anybody making assumptions about feminists > -- more > > like an acute case of spoiled bratdom. :-) > > > > -- Susan > > NH: Or like a big sister being fierce in the defense of her sib, even > though she doesn't understand the situation. > > -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:13:04 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499/ Subject: The Postman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, I just finished David Brin's _The Postman_ (while listening to Janet Jackson's "The Velvet Rope"...no connection - I just like to have music playing while reading). It is a postapocalyptic novel that sees Gordon Krantz, a minstrel (sp? no dictionary nearby...) of sorts, don the clothing of a dead mail carrier for warmth and survival, only to lead to the largest story he ever told: the story of the Restored United States of America. Now, it deals with women in intrguing fashions. I don't want to color anyone's minds if they haven't read the book, but I would like to discuss what everyone (who has read it) thought of this book and the wide range of women presented in the piece. - Geoffrey P.S. Yes, this is the book that is the basis of Kevin Costner's new movie, _The Postman_ (coming out next month). I have no idea as to what the storyline is, but there are still shots that I can't find matching scenes to in the book, and a vast number of names seem to have changed...anyone have more info on the movie? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:23:59 +0000 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: The Postman Comments: To: gamgee@geocities.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > > All, > > I just finished David Brin's _The Postman_ (while listening to Janet Jackson's > "The Velvet Rope"...no connection - I just like to have music playing while > reading). It is a postapocalyptic novel that sees Gordon Krantz, a minstrel > (sp? no dictionary nearby...) of sorts, don the clothing of a dead mail > carrier for warmth and survival, only to lead to the largest story he ever > told: the story of the Restored United States of America. > > Now, it deals with women in intrguing fashions. I don't want to color > anyone's minds if they haven't read the book, but I would like to discuss what > everyone (who has read it) thought of this book and the wide range of women > presented in the piece. > > - Geoffrey > > P.S. Yes, this is the book that is the basis of Kevin Costner's new movie, > _The Postman_ (coming out next month). I have no idea as to what the > storyline is, but there are still shots that I can't find matching scenes to > in the book, and a vast number of names seem to have changed...anyone have > more info on the movie? I'm glad you brought that up, Geoffrey. I hadn't remembered Brin's handling of womens' issues from the first time I read the book, but I was struck by it the second time. Spoilers Upcoming I'm not sure how I feel about it. Taken at face value, Brin seems to be towing that same, dull line that women's main use in life it culling the bastards from the good guys and that they do this best by dying. I always look at the body count to see where a writer's values lie. He leaves two minor women characters alive, one guy of indeterminate race and the white guy hero. As far as I could tell, none of the women made it. As a side issue, you'll notice, too, while he paints the guerilla woman as brave, he also calls them 'insane'. Worse, as far as I'm concerned, he demeans not only their common sense but their scholarship. Hmm, the more I think about it, the less I like it. But I -do- like the book for other reasons. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:15:17 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499/ Subject: Re: The Postman (spoiler laden) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat York wrote: > > I'm not sure how I feel about it. Taken at face value, Brin seems to be > towing that same, dull line that women's main use in life it culling the > bastards from the good guys and that they do this best by dying. (for reference, I'm using the Bantam Spectra 1994 edition - *not* the one with Costner's mug on the cover) He doesn't just seem to be towing it...in Gordon's last letter of the book (p.316 in particular) he discusses Dena and her 'culling' philosophy to Mrs. Thompson. He writes that "[i]n my worst dreams I see women taking up a tradition of drowning their sons, if they show signs of becoming bullies. I envision them *doing their duty*, by passing on life and death before a male child becomes a threat to all around him." Now, that entire idea could be read two ways: 1) Brin doesn't agree with women having to die off and cull the bastards; 2) Gordon's paranoid and doesn't trust women to make sane, rational decisions. Which leads to: > I always look at the body count to see where a writer's values lie. He > leaves two minor women characters alive, one guy of indeterminate race > and the white guy hero. As far as I could tell, none of the women made > it. The women who survive are: Abby - whose husband, Michael, is sterile, leading to her sleeping with Gordon about a third of the way through the book. Mrs. Thompson - the matronly leader of Pine View, but not a mayor, like the male leaders of the other towns are. Marcie and Heather - the women from the Holnists who run away with Gordon when they find out that women can (and will) fight and die in the outside world. Caroline - Abby and Michael's (technically Abby and Gordon's) daughter. She is curious in that Brin chooses a baby girl (the only baby mentioned) to be the future of the Restored United States. Of course, there are also the women recruits training at the end of the book, but they're going to go off, fight the Holnists and die. > Hmm, the more I think about it, the less I like it. But I -do- like the > book for other reasons. I agree. It's the first book that I've picked up in a while that I've sped through with no problem (I've been trying to read Stephenson's _The Diamond Age_ - dear god, is it boring). Brin has a good book in this one (I'm waiting to see what Hollywood does to it...). He would have had a great book if he had dealt with the women in a more constuctive fashion... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:16:22 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 1 Nov 1997 to 2 Nov 1997 Content-Type: text/plain >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:13:04 -0400 >From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" >Subject: The Postman > >All, > >I just finished David Brin's _The Postman_ (while listening to Janet Jackson's >"The Velvet Rope"...no connection - I just like to have music playing while >reading). It is a postapocalyptic novel that sees Gordon Krantz, a minstrel >(sp? no dictionary nearby...) of sorts, don the clothing of a dead mail >carrier for warmth and survival, only to lead to the largest story he ever >told: the story of the Restored United States of America. > >Now, it deals with women in intrguing fashions. I don't want to color >anyone's minds if they haven't read the book, but I would like to discuss what >everyone (who has read it) thought of this book and the wide range of women >presented in the piece. > >- Geoffrey > >P.S. Yes, this is the book that is the basis of Kevin Costner's new movie, >_The Postman_ (coming out next month). I have no idea as to what the >storyline is, but there are still shots that I can't find matching scenes to >in the book, and a vast number of names seem to have changed...anyone have >more info on the movie? Without actually going back and rereading it, my vague recollection is that women served mainly as spear-carriers and symbols of the civilization that the protagonist is trying to re-establish... about par for the post-apocalyptic course. About the movie: like most film adaptations, not much beyond the "high concept" survived, according to David Brin about 9 months ago when I was on his listserv... things could be worse: an earlier version of the screenplay had "The Postman" a homicidal maniac, using the role of the postman to prey on the survivors... Now, that sounds like a more interesting movie to me than this version... (another reminder that Most People Aren't Me...) I also got the impression from Brin's email that extensive changes had been made to make the film more of a star vehicle for Costner. (ObFeminist:these changes probably make the film more PC) Dan Krashin I just couldn't stay away ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:09:11 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 1 Nov 1997 to 2 Nov 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:13:04 -0400 >From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" >Subject: The Postman >it deals with women in intrguing fashions. I don't want to color >anyone's minds if they haven't read the book, but I would like to discuss what >everyone (who has read it) thought of this book and the wide range of women >presented in the piece. While _The Postman_ is not my favorite Brin novel, I have read just about everything he is published and believe he does a much better job undercutting stereotypical gender roles than many authors. In his various UPLIFT novels, his narrative point of view (third person omniscient) not only includes humans (male and female), but aliens (male and female and neuter) and "uplifted" or sentient dolphins and chimpanzees--very interesting. I saw Brin speak at an SF conference in Seattle (years ago now), and he was filling in on a feminist panel for Joanna Russ--which led to some interesting conversation. A book of his that caused some controversy is HIS look at feminist utopias: _Glory Season_. Overall I like Brin's work, and have argued that he deals quite seriously with feminist ideas (although he does criticize the pastoralism and anti-technology beliefs that the earlier feminist utopias tended to rely on). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:34:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: title changes -Reply Comments: To: bl213@FREENET.TORONTO.ON.CA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nalo-- I like "Brown Girl in the Ring." I think it's a good title for a SF book, because it doesn't sound like another genre, I assume it's fairly descriptive of the novel, and it doesn't really sound like anything else on the SF shelves right now. I don't believe all SF novels should have "stars" or "ship" in the title, nor do I believe that all fantasy novel titles should be of the "The Dragon Prince's Shadow Crown of Swords" type. Right now, we're having a lot of success with a first SF novel called "A Thousand Words for Stranger" which is flying off the shelves. Why? It's got an interesting cover (spaceport, girl on the run) and an intriguing title. I think "Brown Girl in the Ring" is a pretty intriguing title, and I hope that Betsy Mitchell does a cover treatment that is true to the nature of the novel while appealing to the larger SF audience. You know, the ones who like spaceships and laser beams! ;-) I'm assuming that this book doesn't have spaceships and laser beams. Debra >>> Nalo Hopkinson - 10/31/97 5:43 PM >>> Debra, what's your perspective on the title of my novel? I am unable to assess it objectively as a title, because I grew up with the game; it has a lot of resonance for me. But I realise that it won't for most sf readers. -nalo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:38:34 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Native Tongue III Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Because I was using NATIVE TONGUE in my recent grad course, I went ahead over the past week and reread the two sequels: this was only the second time I'd read the third in the series. I shared some list members' disappiontment with _Earthsong_ the first time I'd read it: part of this was due to circumstances. It had been over a decade since NT was published (1984 to, what, 1996 or something), and the third novel is somewhat different than the first or even the second. But a friend at Pop Culture who was presenting on the third book that year told me to check it out again: that it was more interesting than I was thinking. I hadn't had time to read it until just now, and I now share her belief that there's something very interesting going on here, and I just have to be a bit patient. The shifts are interesting: the focus isn't only on women surviving the oppression of men, but the entire human race surviving the Alien Consortium's decision to withdraw (along with all their technology). The narrative point of view is different: basically Nazareth (who has died) is telling us stories of what happened after her death, BUT she's working through "trancers" -- and there's a lot of shifting around. In some ways the third novel reminds me of the ending to the first: it's not quite what I expected. But how can a writer describe a reality that is completely different in the "old" language? And unlike the seventies utopias writers who all postulated an all female society (the males having conveniently died out due to a sex-linked plague), Elgin seems interested in asking how to change the violence/aggression which (in the theory behind her novels) seems so basic to human nature. A lot is different--but there is a lot that's the same. The 'plot' to spread the new way of sustaining life, the manipulation by women of men in power. Interesting that the third novel has the women of the Lines allying themselves with Native Americans! Robin. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:39:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lori Schroeter Subject: Rule: Re[2]: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - 1 Nov 1997 to 2 N MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MY LIFE AT THE UNITED STATES COMMITTEE FOR UNICEF: A Coping Technique May 13th 1996 * OMC sent a $10,737.50 check to Ed's attention in January. It was reimbursement for OAA focus groups. We never cashed it and OMC called us to find out. Ed has no memory of it. * At 3:30 I rcvd from Ed OMC's recommended changes to the reduced prospecting program for the first time. Our big meeting with Eddy on prospecting is tomrw morning. I don't feel I can contribute well with these time restrictions. (Ed said he spoke with OMC about it at 3:30 yesterday and made some changes to their projections. However, he gave me their unedited draft projection from Tuesday and asked me to type it up USC style. Last Friday we met with Eddy who gave us a week to review this plan and make our own changes.). * The June OAA house appeal was scheduled to drop on June 12th. I recieved the ATP from OMC on 5/29. Reviewed, approved, and gave it to EMills on 5/30. Finance got it on 6/ . The President's office got it yesterday. OMC called today to see where it was and Eddy hasn't signed it yet and is in LA until tomrw. Will not mail until next week. June 17th, 1996 * The new VP of Finance came by with Matt Brennan to speak with Ed as I was walking by. They motioned for me to join them. They have an Exec Committee meeti9ng at which they will be discussing prospecting in about 10 minutes. They asked Ed about the volume of last year as versus the volume of this year - they need to explain variations in both budget and revenue from one year to the next. Ed was unable to accurately characterize the volume, so he asked for a minute to grab some papers. I had written a summary of this for Maria Collinsof the Finance department and offered to get it. After I found it, printed it and left on the VP's desk, Ed came over and said he COULDN'T FIND any of the OMC reports on last year, could I get him a copy? He can't even find ythe most basic analytic tools of the program!!! June 24th * Background: In looking through some samples I discovered that our permit to solicit in LA was over two years old! We were reprinting an expired permit, which is illegal as well as unethical. Neither Ed nor OMC had even noticed this and when I pointed it out they were unconcerned. So I went through hoops to refile. Now I find that LA won't issue my card until I report on results from 1994 and 1995. Fine. I found a memo from Divoky to Ed telling him he has to file the results report and then refile for a new card. He never did this! Just lost it in the stack of papers that litter his office. Fine, but he's not upset or apologetic or even cares a little bit about this. It's not a joke! It's basic dm stuff - everybody does this - it's not even hard! Divoky filled the stupid forms out for him - all he had to do was sign them and mail them and he didn't even do that! I feel like I'm working with kindergarten children here. July 16th Hispanic Marketing. First he throws everything in my lap, has me do ALL, and quizzes me like a lunatic before he walks into any meeting with management so he can seem like he has a clue. Then he takes a vendor call about the program and decides that he wants to work on it, so without telling me, he develops new plans, etc. which do not match with the budget!!! Then I copy a fax he recvs from teh vendor on dollars so I can adjust my budgeting sheets and he flips out, saying it's his program and I should make sure he knows everything and check with him on stuff, gut not bother him unless it's really important. SO I'm totally confused, ask him what he wants tp knwo and what ge doesn't, i.e. copy, expense, revenue. operational, etc. And he cannot (as usual put a coherent sentence together and let me know). Last week I todl him he had to report on FDP grant money, and did he need any help. He said no. Rody needs it today and he says he's never heard of it befor 4ein his life, and what does he know that I don't know and why on earth can't I do for Rody in the next hour?!?!? This was a big issue in my job review and I asked him for direction and of coure got none. I asked him last week if he needed help and he said no. I refuse to cover this incompentant idiot's ass any longer!!! How did he think that Rody was going to do the writeup on this grant when HE has budget authority over it and she has never seen a bill for it in her life? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lori Schroeter Subject: URGENT Comments: To: Stephen_Nill@Philanthropy-Review.com, carolb@usca.usca.sc.edu, david_dotsonca@cch.com, fstines@unicefusa.org, rosemary_griffin_at_usc@unicefusa.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please disregard and delete the previous personal e-mail mistakenly forwarded. Thank you for your immediate assistance. _____ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:24:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Palwick Subject: Re: Gattaca In-Reply-To: <9711038785.AA878581657@unicefusa.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, everyone. I'm new to the list and glad to be here; I've been following the discussion of book titles with special interest, since my own first novel (Flying in Place) went through two other titles in pre-production, while Tor was trying to decide how to market it. I saw Gattaca this weekend and found it fascinating (and refreshingly well done), and I wondered what other people thought about its treatment of reproductive technology/women's issues. On the one hand, the film is very much about marginality and about the humanity (and ability) of people considered "inferior;" but on the other hand, it takes a pretty dark view of the idea of reproductive choice as an expression of elitism, of the entire idea of "wanted" children versus "unwanted" children. It thus resonates oddly with -- *ahem* -- certain contemporary debates, and I'm not sure what to make of this tension. The film says, simultaneously, that everyone deserves choice (in career, in relationship) and that "choosing" the kind of child you'll have is fundamentally an expression of spiritual impoverishment. Or is the message simply that we should be able to make choices in our own lives, but not to make decisions for others, including the unborn? Am I incorrect in reading this film as a thoughtful and beautifully produced argument against abortion? I'll be curious to hear what all of you have to say. Nicola Griffith, I read Slow River this weekend and loved it. Robin Reid, nice to see you on the list. I'm looking forward to meeting you at the PCA conference! Best regards, Susan Palwick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:52:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Nelson Subject: Re: Brin A better book than The Postman by Brin for discussing women is his book Earth. Not only are two of the main characters women, but he goes into the Gaia principal in a very unique way. With out spoiling the whole story it blows your mind that this was written before the Internet was on mentioned on every street corner. Barbara Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:14:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: _Flying in Place_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan: Welcome to the list, and thank you for writing such a beautiful book. I handsold copies for a long time before it stopped being available. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:04:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: CALL FOR INTERNATIONAL HEROINES: The 100 Heroines Project (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:22:36 -0500 >From: Mary Jane Hannan >Subject: CALL FOR INTERNATIONAL HEROINES: The 100 Heroines Project >To: TIBET-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU > >CALL FOR INTERNATIONAL HEROINES: The 100 Heroines Project > >NOMINATE A HEROINE TO RECEIVE MONETARY AWARD AND GLOBAL RECOGNITION !! > >In the United States, 150 years ago, a handful of brave and heroic women held > >the first Women's Rights Convention near Rochester, New York, USA. This >convention and the subsequent involvement of Rochester's own Susan B. Anthony > >launched the struggle by American women for equality under the law. > >In 1995, women from around the world met in Beijing, China to attend the >United Nation's Fourth World Conference on Women. Nine of them were from >Rochester, New York. These women united to form the Beijing Women of >Rochester (BWR), and established The 100 Heroines Project in their commitment > >to continue the struggle for women's equality around the world. > >1998, which is the 150th anniversary of the First Women's Rights Convention, >and the United Nations Year of Human Rights is a perfect opportunity to honor > >not only our heroines from the past, but to recognize the heroines of today. >Women who have the courage to speak out against unspeakable odds, women, who >like our ancestors, have made supreme sacrifices in the name of women and the > >rights they deserve. These women refuse to accept the constraints and >discrimination that limit their lives. They refuse to give in to the >violence that threatens their health and the safety of their families. They >refuse to remain silent. In their acts of courage they give voice to all >women, hope to all humanity. They are heroines. > >Susan B. Anthony left us with the words "failure is impossible", and it is >our hope that we can do justice to that legacy. That with the selection of >100 Heroines from around the world we can continue the fight to bring >recognition to the courageous women who believe change is possible. > >To nominate a woman as a heroine, please provide the information requested >below, and return it through electronic mail, fax, or mail. We invite >nominations of women from all over the world who meet the following criteria: > >- act courageously to achieve freedom and equality for women >- risk their social acceptance, health, financial security, or even their >lives on behalf of women's rights, and >- serve as a role model for women and girls. > >Selected heroines will be honored with: >- a monetary award to support their continued fight for women's equality and >freedom, and >- inclusion in a book of photographic essays. The book, which will be >distributed globally to benefit other women, will depict the challenges these > >women face worldwide. > > >INSTRUCTIONS: > >Provide the information outlined below, and send through e-mail, fax, or >Postal Service to: >E-mail: Heroine100@aol.com >Mail: 100 Heroines, P.O. Box 23750, Rochester, NY 14692, USA >Fax: (01) 716.586.7523 Phone: (01) 716.234.4292 > >PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NOMINATION FORM FREELY > >Completed nomination forms will be reviewed and the winners will be selected >by a panel of judges. Nomination forms become the property of The 100 >Heroines Project. The selected heroines will be notified by July 30th, 1998. > >NOMINATIONS ARE NOW BEING ACCEPTED AND ARE DUE NO LATER THAN FEBRUARY 28, >1998 > > > >PLEASE PROVIDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION, IN THE FOLLOWING ORDER, FOR EACH >NOMINEE (on no more than 3 pages): > >1. Biographical Information: Nominee's Name, Country / Nationality, Date of >Birth, Address, Phone, Fax, Electronic mail address > >2. Describe the nominee's courageous activities on behalf of women and why >she would be called heroic in her own country. > >3. What challenges are the most difficult for the nominee to overcome in her >struggle toward achieving equal rights and freedom for women? > >4. Please provide a brief description of nominee's personal background. > >5. Please provide the following information for TWO references for validation > >purposes: Name, Address, Phone, Fax, Electronic mail address > >6. Provide the following information on the person nominating the heroine >(candidates may nominate themselves): Name, Organization, Address, Phone, >Fax, Electronic mail address > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:58:16 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephen Smith Subject: Re: Gattaca I am also new to this listserv. I loved Gattaca myself, and am glad that someone has opened some discussion on the subject. I didn't see this as an anti-abortion film at all. Your thoughts are interesting, and I for one would like to see them developed more. My concern with the film had to do with its treatment of a dualistic worldview. Historically women have been aligned with the body (a negative image in philosophical and religious systems) while men have been aligned with the more acceptable and preferred spirit. This movie shows how the body becomes a sort of trap or cage for those who want to soar above it. I felt that his desire to leave the earth, for ethereal space was also his escape from his body and all that it stood for. I was ambivalent about the message in the end. (remember that the doppelganger of the film Eugene, destroys his "perfect" body in the furnace.) *****sorry to anyone who hasn't seen the film. What does the body signify in the film? It never really contains anything positive, except that it can contain the means for escape. I was also a bit disturbed that the only realized female in the film, was indeed mired in her "genes." She never even thought or conceived of a way out. She merely accepted her fate. Also the only other woman in the film was Jerome's mother. (and even her character never really developed.) Is the future elite to be men only? The problem with choosing your future children, also means discriminating on another front...choosing male children over female children.(look at what happens in India and some Middle Eastern children.) I could go on and on...I found the film refreshing, but as I began to examine the role of women and the body as represented in the film, I felt a bit ambivalent as to what it's trying to say. I welcome any replies. Julien R Fielding ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Susan Palwick Sent: Monday, November 03, 1997 2:24 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Gattaca Hello, everyone. I'm new to the list and glad to be here; I've been following the discussion of book titles with special interest, since my own first novel (Flying in Place) went through two other titles in pre-production, while Tor was trying to decide how to market it. I saw Gattaca this weekend and found it fascinating (and refreshingly well done), and I wondered what other people thought about its treatment of reproductive technology/women's issues. On the one hand, the film is very much about marginality and about the humanity (and ability) of people considered "inferior;" but on the other hand, it takes a pretty dark view of the idea of reproductive choice as an expression of elitism, of the entire idea of "wanted" children versus "unwanted" children. It thus resonates oddly with -- *ahem* -- certain contemporary debates, and I'm not sure what to make of this tension. The film says, simultaneously, that everyone deserves choice (in career, in relationship) and that "choosing" the kind of child you'll have is fundamentally an expression of spiritual impoverishment. Or is the message simply that we should be able to make choices in our own lives, but not to make decisions for others, including the unborn? Am I incorrect in reading this film as a thoughtful and beautifully produced argument against abortion? I'll be curious to hear what all of you have to say. Nicola Griffith, I read Slow River this weekend and loved it. Robin Reid, nice to see you on the list. I'm looking forward to meeting you at the PCA conference! Best regards, Susan Palwick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:49:51 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: patricia johnston Subject: polygraph/ fem/sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, There is some controversy about allowing polygragh tests into court as evidence. My question is,,,,,where do we go from polygraph tests? For example in Heinleins, Revolt in 2100, truth serum is allowed by (their government) to elicite information from malfactors. In In M. Bradley Kelloggs, Rumor of Angels, the prisoners of the "wards" are tranquied to keep them submisive. Does anyone have other books in mind re fem/sf that addresses this issue. I guess what I am trying to say, is,,,,,in the near future will Govt. approve any means to elicite truth, chemical methods included. Patricia. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:07:13 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Gattaca In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Julien R Fielding > > >Susan Palwick Welcome, you two. -Sean Death has its own honor. To refuse to live is the height of dishonor. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: polygraph/ fem/sf Patricia Johnston <>writes: > > Hi All, > There is some controversy about allowing polygragh tests into court as > evidence. My question is,,,,,where do we go from polygraph tests? For > example in Heinleins, Revolt in 2100, truth serum is allowed by (their > government) to elicite information from malfactors. In In M. Bradley > Kelloggs, Rumor of Angels, the prisoners of the "wards" are tranquied to > keep them submisive. Does anyone have other books in mind re fem/sf that > addresses this issue. I guess what I am trying to say, is,,,,,in the near > future will Govt. approve any means to elicite truth, chemical methods > included. > Patricia. > > They're not terribly feminist, but H. Beam Piper wrote _Little Fuzzy_, _Fuzzy Sapiens_, and _Fuzzies and Other People_. And apparently other writers wrote about the same world and (possibly) inhabitants after Piper's death. Anyway, in them they use a "Polyencephalographic Veridicator" which works a great deal like a polygraph, except that it can't be fooled, except by the "Fuzzies" which star in the books. I haven't read them in a *long* time, but since they were written in the '50s, polygraphs were about as high-tech as it got. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:42:33 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: polygraph/ fem/sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't think of any especially feminist applications of this in sf, but _The Truth Machine_ comes immediately to mind. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:10:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janine Maves Subject: Re: The Postman Not only does Brin diminish their roles, he also has his female characters call each other "girls!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:13:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tressa Klein Subject: Re: The Postman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janine Maves wrote: > Not only does Brin diminish their roles, he also has his female characters > call each other "girls!" SInce I just joined could you explain to me what you are talking about. tressk@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: Unca-lloyd@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: LLoyd McDaniel Subject: Re: The Postman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes... I've read the book recently and since is the first message I saw it looks like a doozey of a list... 'girls' to someone hauling a bucket of crick water might be a term of endearment and honor. in a hard brutish life, these fems took control of their ablity to wage war and did so. by the end of the book these persons had begun to become a legend in that area and men were having to consider that the women in their lives would tolerate no more of the nasty\mean\sadistic types hanging around even if it meant taking matters, (and throats), into their own hands. 'trivialize'???? in mid-town new york in 1997 maybe... it the woods or Oregon 16 years after the collapse... I think not. L.McD. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:42:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Re: The Postman Comments: To: Unca-lloyd@SFF.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >yes... I've read the book recently and since is the first message I saw >it looks like a doozey of a list... > >'girls' to someone hauling a bucket of crick water might be a term of >endearment and honor. in a hard brutish life, these fems took control of >their ablity to wage war and did so. by the end of the book these >persons had begun to become a legend in that area and men were having to >consider that the women in their lives would tolerate no more of the >nasty\mean\sadistic types hanging around even if it meant taking >matters, (and throats), into their own hands. > >'trivialize'???? in mid-town new york in 1997 maybe... it the woods or >Oregon 16 years after the collapse... I think not. > >L.McD. I'm just wondering, since I am new to the mailing list... what book are you talking about? I want to read it. Thanx Becca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:55:51 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499/ Subject: Re: The Postman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Becca Stoler wrote: > I'm just wondering, since I am new to the mailing list... what book are > you talking about? I want to read it. Thanx > > Becca Becca- We're discussing David Brin's _The Postman_, the basis of next month's Kevin Costner vehicle. I'm afraid this discussion is my fault... :) - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect -- Geoffrey D. Sperl gamgee@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:17:59 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Cadfael and medieval history Comments: To: Neil Rest In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971031093554.00a18d90@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > Has your friend read _The Domesday Book_? I'd be curious to know her > opinion of the depiction of Plague England. > > > Neil Rest > NeilRest@tezcat.com > I won't even _start_ on the _historical_ problems (I haven't time: I am supposed to be preparing for a seminar on the Black Death this very moment!)... But Connie Willis could at least have got her geography of medieval Oxford right... Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:24:02 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) In-Reply-To: <345A4392.2A42418@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Geoffrey Sperl wrote: > I can see connections between _Awakenings_ and _Algernon_, but I still would have > to place _Algernon_ in SF...it's a fringe piece, yes, but definitely SF...of > course, Oliver Sachs would probably say that the events in _Awakenings_ were > almost science fiction... > > - Geoffrey > I don't understand why you think _Flowers for Algeernon_ is a _fringe_ sf piece. The discussion of intelligence and the possibilities of super-intelligence has long been one that is central to science fiction. Admittedly Keyes did the story in a way that is more approachable to those not used to genre sf (such people might have had problems with Poul Anderson's marvellous _Brain Wave_, for instance, which is an earlier approach than Keyes). But it was published within the sf genre, received the accolades of the sf community, and is in every respect core sf. Why fringe? :-) Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:26:48 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: polygraph/ fem/sf In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971103174951.00696654@deepcove.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, patricia johnston wrote: > Hi All, > There is some controversy about allowing polygragh tests into court as > evidence. My question is,,,,,where do we go from polygraph tests? For > example in Heinleins, Revolt in 2100, truth serum is allowed by (their > government) to elicite information from malfactors. In In M. Bradley > Kelloggs, Rumor of Angels, the prisoners of the "wards" are tranquied to > keep them submisive. Does anyone have other books in mind re fem/sf that > addresses this issue. I guess what I am trying to say, is,,,,,in the near > future will Govt. approve any means to elicite truth, chemical methods > included. > Patricia. > It isn't particularly feminist, but a recent novel on this very subject is James Halperin's The Truth Machine. I didn't like it all that much when I reviewed it for Publishers Weekly, but it's getting a lot of press and selling a fair number of copies. Then there's Jim Carrey's film Liar, Liar! Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:49:33 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: from moderator: question re subscribers? Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm just curious; we've had a welter of new subscribers in the past two days. Something like 30 new subscribers in two days, which is a bit more than the norm (which is about 2 new subscribers each day). I'd love to hear from some of the recent subscribers (privately, please) about where they heard about the list? Privately, please; let's not clutter up the list with this. PS; it's nice when you first post to briefly introduce yourself. If you haven't posted in a while re-introduce yourself briefly since the conversation always includes new people. Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:39:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Introduction of self Hi! My name is Rhian Merris. I am an avid SF fan and (male) feminist. I'm also very busy, so I don't know how often I'll post, at least at first. I am a fan of Le Guin, but the vast majority of my SF experience is not particularly feminist. I'm looking forward to broadening my horizons in that venue. Rhian Merris rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:46:05 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: new journal Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:30:19 -0500 From: Batya Weinbaum Reply-To: Women's Studies List To: WMST-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU Subject: FEMSPEC: A New Journal. Needs mss, reviewers. If you have a manuscript, query, or interest in serving as a reader or being involved on advisory or editorial board, please contact Robin-Reid@tamu-commerce-edu or batyawein@aol.com. This is being started by the two of us as co-editors, and is an outgrowth of the SF Area Task Force of Popular Culture/American Culture Association. In this context, we were discussing the non-feminsit nature of most sf journals, and the lack of interest in non-realistic writing in women's journals of criticism. Want to hepl fill this void? Submit or contact us! Thanks. FEMSPEC: A NEW JOURNAL This interdiscipinary journal will be dedicated to critical and creative works in the realms of SF, fantasy, magical realism, and other super-natural genres. Literary and cultural criticism, interdisciplinary approaches, work on teaching, and creative material are sought. We hop an approach to pedagogy will bring work in from wider disciplines. We are interested in a variety of feminist approaches, and aim to be inclusive o ethnic and cultural diversity in an internationalist perspective. Batya Weinbaum, VT batyawein@aol.com -------- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:35:04 -0500 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Sarah Canary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just read this great book. Is this supposed to be SF? While it certainly appealed to my feminist SF likes, I can't tell if it was SF. Has anyone else read it? If so, what did you think? Also, I have a few unresolved questions. Perhaps they are supposed to be unresolved and that is part of the whole effect of the book (which was powerful and which I appreciated very much) -- SPOILERs -- I can't really ask questions without giving things away to the casual reader, sorry. Is there standard way to this spoilers stuff? here are the questions I have: Was the crazy guy telepathic? Were the things he got from inanimate objects really in them? What is up with Sarah Canary? Was she crazy? Was the whole thing (along with us) part of a dream of hers? What did she change into? Did her dress really have special powers? Was that one man really immortal? Do any of these things matter or is the nebulous, hinting uncertainty what is more important? -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:46:03 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Courtney Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Although there may be parallels between Flowers for Algernon and Awakenings, the story was actually made into a film years ago. Am I the only person on this list old enough to remember the film Charly? I believe Cliff Robertson played the lead. Susan Courtney At 09:24 06/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Geoffrey Sperl wrote: > >> I can see connections between _Awakenings_ and _Algernon_, but I still would have >> to place _Algernon_ in SF...it's a fringe piece, yes, but definitely SF...of >> course, Oliver Sachs would probably say that the events in _Awakenings_ were >> almost science fiction... >> >> - Geoffrey >> > >I don't understand why you think _Flowers for Algeernon_ is a _fringe_ sf >piece. The discussion of intelligence and the possibilities of >super-intelligence has long been one that is central to science fiction. >Admittedly Keyes did the story in a way that is more approachable to those >not used to genre sf (such people might have had problems with Poul >Anderson's marvellous _Brain Wave_, for instance, which is an earlier >approach than Keyes). But it was published within the sf genre, received >the accolades of the sf community, and is in every respect core sf. Why >fringe? :-) > >Edward James > > >........................................................................... ... > >Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social >Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK > >http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm > >Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION >Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media > >........................................................................... ... > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:58:00 -0800 Reply-To: Michelle Wolfe Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Wolfe Subject: ESP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, my name's Shelley, I'm a grad student in Religious Studies. I've been having a great time lurking on this list, but recently I stumbled across a book that seems relevant to a query Rudy posted a couple weeks back. If I recall correctly, she posted looking for books with themes addressing gender and ESP. A couple nights ago, I started reading _And Chaos Died_ , a 1970's novel by Joanna Russ. In typical Russ-ian style, the narrative isn't exactly straightforward, but near as I can tell (reading it as I am in fragments during that last bleary half hour before I fall asleep), the story seems to be about a quasi-human colony where the inhabitants possess Psi-abilities of every kind--- telepathy, telekinesis, tele-portation, etc. (small spoilers below) The story is told from the point of view of a man who crash landed into the colony while on a commercial space-flight, and the story seems to be partly the tale of his own psi abilities unfolding as he attempts to relate to and communicate with the colonists. His primary relationship is with Evne, a woman colonist, and though I haven't been paying attention to the gender themes in the book, I'm sure, knowing Joanna Russ, that there are some. The title is taken from Chuang-tzu (?) and there seems to be a theme of attention and boundaries between world and self woven into her descriptions of the colonists' abilities. Samuel Delany wrote the blurb on the back of the paperback, and like the Delany novels I've read, there's a preoccupation with language, power and domination in this story. Russ contrasts the two escape pod survivors, and their dependence on speech, with the telepathic communication of the colonists, implying different modes of power and control that are available through language vs. telepathic communication. I'm not even half-way through the novel yet, but the line of dialogue that has stayed with me so far is when the pov character Jai tells one of the colonists: "Technical matters...You need words for technical matters..." Set in such close proximity to a scene where the Evne is explaining to Jai that plants and hills have thoughts and feelings, I wonder if Russ is using this exchange to highlight how language works for us to distance, manipulate and control that which we can name. For some reason, It makes me think somehow of Le Guin's mind-speak in _Left Hand of Darkness_; though mind-speak is still heard as language, one cannot lie or deceive when speaking telepathically. I don't know what your student is reading for the ESP paper, Rudy, but if she can get her hands on a copy of the Russ novel, it might be worth her time. Michelle.Wolfe@cgu.edu ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I love the smell of scholar-sweat in the morning. (with apologies to Xena) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:27:01 -0600 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lg: Oh yes I remember Charly -- one of my first SF movies and got me to read the book. (67, 68?) Cliff Robertson won an oscar. Claire Bloom as his sympathetic social worker and love interest. What stands out in my memory (and I haven't seen the movie since then)is that part of the plot was the *bad guy* scientists caring more about their experiments than about Charly's humanity. Now that's a classic SF theme if ever there was one. Also, how sad Charly's glimpse at the immensity of the universe and all there is to learn/see/know, only to realize that he couldn't hold on to even the possibility of retaining what he'd learned. luz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:28:32 -0600 Reply-To: lguerra@ibm.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: luz guerra Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lg: whoops, guess my comments went out in two parts... sorry! Susan Courtney wrote: > > Although there may be parallels between Flowers for Algernon and > Awakenings, the story was actually made into a film years ago. Am I the > only person on this list old enough to remember the film Charly? I believe > Cliff Robertson played the lead. > > Susan Courtney > > At 09:24 06/11/97 +0000, you wrote: > >On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Geoffrey Sperl wrote: > > > >> I can see connections between _Awakenings_ and _Algernon_, but I still > would have > >> to place _Algernon_ in SF...it's a fringe piece, yes, but definitely > SF...of > >> course, Oliver Sachs would probably say that the events in _Awakenings_ > were > >> almost science fiction... > >> > >> - Geoffrey > >> > > > >I don't understand why you think _Flowers for Algeernon_ is a _fringe_ sf > >piece. The discussion of intelligence and the possibilities of > >super-intelligence has long been one that is central to science fiction. > >Admittedly Keyes did the story in a way that is more approachable to those > >not used to genre sf (such people might have had problems with Poul > >Anderson's marvellous _Brain Wave_, for instance, which is an earlier > >approach than Keyes). But it was published within the sf genre, received > >the accolades of the sf community, and is in every respect core sf. Why > >fringe? :-) > > > >Edward James > > > > > >........................................................................... > ... > > > >Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social > >Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK > > > >http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm > > > >Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION > >Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media > > > >........................................................................... > ... > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:01:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106204603.007416c0@mail.virgin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Susan Courtney wrote: > > Although there may be parallels between Flowers for Algernon and > Awakenings, the story was actually made into a film years ago. Am I the > only person on this list old enough to remember the film Charly? I believe > Cliff Robertson played the lead. > I remember it. It was sadly miscast.> > > > > > > > > >I don't understand why you think _Flowers for Algeernon_ is a _fringe_ sf > >piece. The discussion of intelligence and the possibilities of > >super-intelligence has long been one that is central to science fiction. > >Admittedly Keyes did the story in a way that is more approachable to those > >not used to genre sf (such people might have had problems with Poul > >Anderson's marvellous _Brain Wave_, for instance, which is an earlier > >approach than Keyes). But it was published within the sf genre, received > >the accolades of the sf community, and is in every respect core sf. Why > >fringe? :-) > > > >Edward James > > > > > >........................................................................... > ... > > > >Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social > >Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK > > > >http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm > > > >Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION > >Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media > > > >........................................................................... > ... > > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:59:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Susan, you're quite right Cliff Robertson played Charly, and if memory serves, he won an academy award for it. Clair Bloom played the doctor who performed the experiment on him and fell in love with him. Charming, well done movie, came out around 1967. I was a young lad of 35 at the time. David Silver ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:31:09 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: The Moon and the Sun In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had some seriously good news today. I hope folks will forgive the brag. The Moon and the Sun is on the PW list of Best Books of 1997. http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 Vonda http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda New on the home page: "Frank Herbert Memorial Sunset Watch" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971106204603.007416c0@mail.virgin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: Nah, I remember it, at the ripe old age of 36. -nalo On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Susan Courtney wrote: > Although there may be parallels between Flowers for Algernon and > Awakenings, the story was actually made into a film years ago. Am I the > only person on this list old enough to remember the film Charly? I believe > Cliff Robertson played the lead. > > Susan Courtney > > > > > > > At 09:24 06/11/97 +0000, you wrote: > >On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Geoffrey Sperl wrote: > > > >> I can see connections between _Awakenings_ and _Algernon_, but I still > would have > >> to place _Algernon_ in SF...it's a fringe piece, yes, but definitely > SF...of > >> course, Oliver Sachs would probably say that the events in _Awakenings_ > were > >> almost science fiction... > >> > >> - Geoffrey > >> > > > >I don't understand why you think _Flowers for Algeernon_ is a _fringe_ sf > >piece. The discussion of intelligence and the possibilities of > >super-intelligence has long been one that is central to science fiction. > >Admittedly Keyes did the story in a way that is more approachable to those > >not used to genre sf (such people might have had problems with Poul > >Anderson's marvellous _Brain Wave_, for instance, which is an earlier > >approach than Keyes). But it was published within the sf genre, received > >the accolades of the sf community, and is in every respect core sf. Why > >fringe? :-) > > > >Edward James > > > > > >........................................................................... > ... > > > >Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social > >Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK > > > >http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm > > > >Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION > >Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media > > > >........................................................................... > ... > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:50:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971106185946.00689b94@idirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: And I obviously saw it later on tv or something, since by then I remember that I had already read the story, and I would have been 6 when the film was released. -nalo On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, David Silver wrote: > Hi Susan, you're quite right Cliff Robertson played Charly, and if memory > serves, he won an academy award for it. Clair Bloom played the doctor who > performed the experiment on him and fell in love with him. Charming, well > done movie, came out around 1967. I was a young lad of 35 at the time. > > David Silver > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:53:30 -0500 Reply-To: deluca@pcrm.org Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathy Deluca Subject: hi! i'm new! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I'm new to the list and thought i'd introduce myself per Laura's request. My name is Cathy and I've just started reading feminist scifi & fantasy in the past year. Started with Marion Zimmer Bradley and have been inhaling as much new stuff as i can since then. The list looks great and i'm glad to be on it! peace, cathy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:17:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: from moderator: question re subscribers? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'm just curious; we've had a welter of new subscribers in the past two >days. Something like 30 new subscribers in two days, which is a bit more >than the norm (which is about 2 new subscribers each day). I'd love to >hear from some of the recent subscribers (privately, please) about where >they heard about the list? Privately, please; let's not clutter up the >list with this. > >PS; it's nice when you first post to briefly introduce yourself. If you >haven't posted in a while re-introduce yourself briefly since the >conversation always includes new people. > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > >"If I can't dance, I don't want to be >in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman > > FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL Laura, Is this growth cool or what?! -Sean :D Death has its own honor. To refuse to live is the height of dishonor. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:22:29 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: The Moon and the Sun In-Reply-To: <346b52fe.254963299@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I had some seriously good news today. I hope folks >will forgive the brag. The Moon and the Sun is on >the PW list of Best Books of 1997. > > >http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 > > > >Vonda > > >http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda >New on the home page: >"Frank Herbert Memorial Sunset Watch" Vonda, Hello! Congratulations, Vonda! What's the "Frank Herbert Memorial Sunset Watch"? Just what it sounds like? -Sean Death has its own honor. To refuse to live is the height of dishonor. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:26:38 -0500 Reply-To: Unca-lloyd@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: LLoyd McDaniel Subject: Re: from moderator: question re subscribers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5218A7441AE446E744939B9B" --------------5218A7441AE446E744939B9B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello; RE: your question about finding the list, I am a PC tech at a local university and subscribe to the 'dummies' mailing list to be able to support PC users in simple forms, your list appeared in one of the posts. Why, I don't know, but I am a seasoned fan, being both president\vp\conchair of the 10th annual con\consuite runner in years past and the site manager for author Ben Bova on the net at http://www.sff.net/people/benbova I am not here to start waves though I enjoy a decent flame as much as anybody. LLoyd --------------5218A7441AE446E744939B9B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello;

RE: your question about finding the list, I am a PC tech at a local university and subscribe to the 'dummies' mailing list to be able to support PC users in simple forms, your list appeared in one of the posts. Why, I don't know, but I am a seasoned fan, being both president\vp\conchair of the 10th annual con\consuite runner in years past and the site manager for author Ben Bova on the net at  http://www.sff.net/people/benbova

I am not here to start waves though I enjoy a decent flame as much as anybody.

LLoyd --------------5218A7441AE446E744939B9B-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:48:40 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: The Moon and the Sun Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Vonda McIntyre wrote: >I had some seriously good news today. I hope folks >will forgive the brag. The Moon and the Sun is on >the PW list of Best Books of 1997. > > >http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 > Aw, I wanted to be the one to tell you -- just got my PW! For those who haven't yet picked this up and are waiting for a holiday present of one, remind your family and friends that Vonda will be signing (and personalising) and discussing _The Moon and the Sun_ at Mysterious Galaxy on Sunday, December 7, at 1:30 PM. :) Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:50:10 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Algernon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >NH: And I obviously saw it later on tv or something, since by then I >remember that I had already read the story, and I would have been 6 when >the film was released. > >-nalo Yeah, me too. But 2, not 6. May even have seen it in high school on film, in the old pre-videotape days! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:11:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted before the comment about introducing ourselves came up, so here is my introduction. My name is Becca, I am a college student majoring in English. I love science fiction and fantasy, and write my fair share. I have been published in a few small literary journals, and with luck, will have a story out through double day publishing early next year. (my fingers are extremely crossed) When people ask me what I want to do after I graduate, I tell them I want to run away and join the ren-faire circuit and write fantasy novels (in other words, I want to be hungry.) I hope that is enough intro. Oh, by the way, I saw _Algernon_, but it came out 3 years prior to my birth, so I must have seen it on T.V. or video. Becca Dreams Are Born In The Heart And Mind, And Only There Can They Ever Die remember Narnia, wonderland, MiddleEarth, and Never Never Land, and you shall truly never die. Peace Be With Thee and Blessed Be ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:59:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chelle Rogers Organization: Castalia Llamas Subject: Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I crept on here through the 'Dummies email listserve of the day' also. My name is Chelle and I raise llamas, create web sites and write cyber columns for 2 livestock magazines. I almost had a fantasy book published years ago, but just prior to handing it over to the publisher I burned it. (Back in my days of drugging and drinking and temper tantrums - those are gone, thankfully!) Been a feminist since birth and was just going to lurk to find more good reading material. I read about 4 books a week, but have to rely on the local library for most of my fare. I live on an island so the library is small. Now I'll go back to lurking and hoping for good recommendations. Thanks! -- Chelle Rogers mailto:castalia@rockisland.com Cozy Corner http://www.rockisland.com/~castalia/ Castalia Llamas, Fantasy, Recovery * See the sights... er, sites Webweaving http://www.rockisland.com/~castalia/net.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 04:12:15 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: The Moon and the Sun In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just a little essay I wrote after Frank died; I thought folks might like to read it. vonda On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:22:29 -0600, Sean Johnston wrote: >... >What's the "Frank Herbert Memorial Sunset Watch"? Just what it sounds like? > >-Sean > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda New on the home page: "Frank Herbert Memorial Sunset Watch" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 04:12:21 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: The Moon and the Sun In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Maryelizabeth. Looking forward to the San Diego visit. Vonda On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:48:40 -0800, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >Vonda McIntyre wrote: >>I had some seriously good news today. I hope folks >>will forgive the brag. The Moon and the Sun is on >>the PW list of Best Books of 1997. >> >> >>http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 >> >Aw, I wanted to be the one to tell you -- just got my PW! > >For those who haven't yet picked this up and are waiting for a holiday >present of one, remind your family and friends that Vonda will be signing >(and personalising) and discussing _The Moon and the Sun_ at Mysterious >Galaxy on Sunday, December 7, at 1:30 PM. :) > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda New on the home page: "Frank Herbert Memorial Sunset Watch" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:00:09 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Algernon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I knew I was getting ancient, but .... I read the original story in an SF magazine when it first came out. I never forgot it. I had the magazine hidden behind a textbook in class as my usual custom was - imagine my surprise 30 years later to find it, not *behind* my daughters' textbooks, but IN them! Note also: when my oldest first read "Born of Man & Woman," she immediately realized it was a child abuse story and wondered at great length what was wrong with the poor little boy chained in the cellar. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu "With a 14.4 modem it's not netsurfing.It's webcrawling." "Wanted, one ghost. Experience and good character required. Ability to ing tenor an advantage. Apply Paris Opera before New Years, 1882." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:01:56 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Algernon (was Re: vampire recommendations) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > NH: Nah, I remember it, at the ripe old age of 36. And I do, too...at the Social Security garnering age of... 24. :) Edward: I said "fringe" because I remembered little of the film (I saw it on a Saturday afternoon movie show, when I was maybe 6 or 7), and have never read the book (I have it, along with about 200 other f&sf novels a former professor passed along to me on the advent of her retirement). I was merely thinking that it was very non-genre and "fringe" was the first thing that popped into my head while I was at work that day... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:22:35 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oy! I've never introduced myself, have I? Sad state of affairs I've put myself in...I'm working too hard... Well, let's see: I'm 24 and have my MA (creative writing) from Wayne State in Detroit, MI. I'm currently a post-bachelor student, attempting not to burn out, and will start my specialist certificate program (read: MA sans thesis) in instructional technology (English departments need some more practical people in them) at Wayne come next fall. Then, once my girlfriend finishes her MA, we'll survey the situation, and the damage to our pocketbooks, and decide where we go from there - currently we think we'll get married, she'll be going to work (she doesn't really want a PhD) and I'll start working on a PhD (at the Univeristy of Michigan...I hope). I must admit: I was sucked into f&sf by dear Mr. Lucas when I was four and sat in my third movie (the first two being _Raggedy Ann and Andy_ and _The Rescuers_) in the theater (Hey! I thought I was a big boy, let me tell you). _Star Wars_ blew me away...and I admit it still serves as my brain candy (my mother says I seem to revert to this four-year-old enthusiasm when _SW_ comes up). I later moved further in with Tolkien and Lewis and then McCaffery. I read Asimov when I was 14, and thought he was the greatest thing since Piers Anthony (my sensibilities have changed in ten years...). To make a short story long: I became interested in the feminist influences in f&sf when I took a women's studies class at Wayne, Feminist U/Dystopias (taught by Anca Vlasopolos), and began to examine how I could utilize forward-thinking feminist ideas in my own work... Now I'm here. :) - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:20:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Algernon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Patricia (Pat) Mathews wrote: >I knew I was getting ancient, but .... I read the original story in an SF >magazine when it first came out. I never forgot it. I had the magazine >hidden behind a textbook in class as my usual custom was - imagine my >surprise 30 years later to find it, not *behind* my daughters' textbooks, >but IN them! The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, wasn't it? also old enough to remember that it was a story later expanded into a novel, Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:08:49 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Algernon In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971107092018.006acd78@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews wrote: > >I knew I was getting ancient, but .... I read the original story in an SF > >magazine when it first came out. I never forgot it. I had the magazine > >hidden behind a textbook in class as my usual custom was - imagine my > >surprise 30 years later to find it, not *behind* my daughters' textbooks, > >but IN them! > > The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, wasn't it? It sure was. > > also old enough to remember that it was a story later expanded into a novel, > Neil > NeilRest@tezcat.com > You mean there are more of us ancients? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:26:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Algernon In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971107092018.006acd78@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know if I'm the only one, but I thought that Charly was a terrible movie. I read and loved the story but didn't read the novel. The story was a timeless classic. The movie is very dated. There was no stupid love tryst in the story. Guess what HAD to be in the movie? I wasn't impressed with the acting either. It might be that it was far and away better than other movies (the sotiry was THAT good), but it was a pale, twisted imitation of the story. If I remember correctly, didn't they even work in some crappy Luddite ranting? -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Geoffrey Sperl Organization: Wayne State University Subject: Re: Algernon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel VanLaven wrote: > I don't know if I'm the only one, but I thought that Charly was a terrible > movie. Oh, c'mon, Joel. Don't hold back from us. We want to know what you really think about _Charly_. ;) Actually, that's probably another reason why I ended up calling it "fringe:" my 18-year-old memories of it seem to only remember the love story...though I know the story of the written works... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:33:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: The Moon and the Sun In-Reply-To: <346b52fe.254963299@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:31 11/6/97 GMT, you wrote: >I had some seriously good news today. I hope folks >will forgive the brag. The Moon and the Sun is on >the PW list of Best Books of 1997. > > Congratulations, Vonda! I really enjoyed the book! >http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 > > > >Vonda > > >http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda >New on the home page: >"Frank Herbert Memorial Sunset Watch" > > Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:40:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: Algernon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I never saw the movie, but I read the novel when I was a child. I remember a relationship between the main male character and a woman who had been his teacher before the "procedure." Now I have no copy for reference. Does anyone else? Now I'm really curious to see if my memory is correct. BTW--Introduction I'm a human in-between professions who has read everything within reach for as long as I can remember. I put together and earned a women's studies BA (there still is no WS major at that university) years ago. Science fiction is a wonderful avenue for travel. My all-time favorite short story is _She Unnames Them_ (1985) by Ursula K. LeGuin. I don't have an all-time favorite novel. Lindy Joel VanLaven wrote: > > I don't know if I'm the only one, but I thought that Charly was a terrible > movie. I read and loved the story but didn't read the novel. The story > was a timeless classic. The movie is very dated. There was no stupid > love tryst in the story. Guess what HAD to be in the movie? I wasn't > impressed with the acting either. It might be that it was far and away > better than other movies (the sotiry was THAT good), but it was a pale, > twisted imitation of the story. If I remember correctly, didn't they even > work in some crappy Luddite ranting? > > -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:29:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Jason A. Wallwork" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jason A. Wallwork" Subject: Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone! I found about this list from TipWorld and since then I'm quite impressed with some of the dialogue and the traffic going on over the last couple of days. I've read a fair amount of Sci-Fi, but the concept of Feminist Sci-Fi is new to me, although I consider myself a male feminist. I also like to dabble in fantasy which is and isn't really sci-fi. I've read Asimov's foundation series, some of Robert Jordan's books (reading the Wheel of Time series now), Heinlein, Pohl (can't say I care much for his writing style) and although I know it's "soft sci-fi", I have a few favorite favorite Star Trek authors, especially Peter David and Michael Jan Freidman. I also appreciate David Eddings (in the fantasy genre, although "Losers" was good, too) and Kevin J. Anderson for the several of the Star Wars books and the new X-files series. I'm 26, married, live in Ontario, Canada, and am preparing to go to university (Royal Military College) next year. Well, I just wanted to let you know who I am, and now I'll go back into "lurker" mode for a while :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason A. Wallwork, Kawartha Computer Club President E-mail: jsheridan@bigfoot.com KCC Homepage: http://www.thekcc.org "It is in vain to hope to please all alike. Let a man stand with his face in what direction he will, he must necessarily turn his back on one half of the world." -George Dennison Prentice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:58:17 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Palwick Subject: Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As per Laura's request, here's a bit of information . . . my name's Susan Palwick and I'm an assistant professor of English at the University of NV, Reno, where I teach primarily creative writing (with the occasional lit course thrown in). I'm also a feminist and a writer; I've published one novel (Flying in Place) which is a feminist ghost story about child abuse -- and alas! out of print -- and I'm working on a second novel which is under contract to Tor Books. I've also published a number of stories, including a novella called "GI Jesus" (in Starlight 1, ed. Patrick Nielsen Hayden) which was a finalist for the World Fantasy Award this year, and which is also very strongly feminist. In addition to creative writing, feminisim and sf/f, my academic interests include 19th century women's writing and trauma narrative. This spring I'll be giving two papers which may be of interest to people on the list; at the 7th Annual Cultural Studies Symposium ("Violence Incorporated") in Manhattan, Kansas in March, I'll be discussing Anne Rice's "Exit to Eden" as a fascinating but flawed attempt to construct a sexual utopia, and at the PCA conference in April I'll be giving a paper on the relationship between history, fantasy and physical illness in Connie Willis' "Lincoln's Dreams" and Geoff Ryman's "Was." Oh, yeah, and this spring I'll be teaching an American lit seminar contrasting works of American realism with works of fantasy published the same year (Sister Carrie and the Wizard of Oz in 1900, Native Son and Slan in 1940, Irving's Setting Free the Bears and The Last Unicorn in 1968, Kingsolver's Animal Dreams and Morrow's City of Truth in 1990). The point of the course will be to look at how apparently disparate texts nonetheless reflect shared cultural concerns. Well, that's probably a LOT more than anybody wanted to know. I'm glad to be on the list and have enjoyed what I've read here. Thanks for listening! Cheers, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:19:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Palwick Subject: Re: Gattaca In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Julien, Yes, I know what you mean about the dualism in the film, the whole body vs. spirit thing. I think I found the female characters a bit more sympathetic than you did, though; remember that Vincent's mother loved him despite his flaws (perhaps more than his father did), and wanted to honor him with his father's first name even after she knew that he had a short life expectancy, etc. And the Uma Thurman character *did* rise above her (perceived) limitations, as Vincent pointed out to her after they ran down the alley. When she said, "I can't do things like this," he answered, "You just did." I saw her limitation more as the social one of not being willing (as Vincent was) to break the law and become a "borrowed ladder" to outwit the authorities. In other words, she accepted society's definition of her -- although she was moving away from that towards the end -- but then again, so did most of the men in the film. It would have been nice to see a female "borrowed ladder," just for balance, but the movie couldn't do everything . . . maybe a sequel? Hope this makes sense -- Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:48:11 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Palwick Subject: Re: Gattaca, PS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Also, remember that at the end of the movie, the ship's crew includes some women, and plenty of women are shown working (and working out) at Gattaca over the course of the film. Okay, all for now . . . SP ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:17:48 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: The Moon and the Sun In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.16.19971107123338.5297d62c@pop.truman.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks much, Martha On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:33:02 -0600, Martha Bartter wrote: > >Congratulations, Vonda! I really enjoyed the book! > >>http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 >> >> >> >>Vonda >> http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda Some official good news at http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:07:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lori Schroeter Subject: Re: Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan, What was the plot of your book? I read a feminist ghost story about child abuse once and it made quite an impression on me. I wonder if they are one and the same? The story I recall was (I believe) about a lesbian woman living in a suburban area. ---Lori __ As per Laura's request, here's a bit of information . . . my name's Susan Palwick and I'm an assistant professor of English at the University of NV, Reno, where I teach primarily creative writing (with the occasional lit course thrown in). I'm also a feminist and a writer; I've published one novel (Flying in Place) which is a feminist ghost story about child abuse -- and alas! out of print -- and I'm working on a second novel which is under contract to Tor Books. I've also published a number of stories, including a novella called "GI Jesus" (in Starlight 1, ed. Patrick Nielsen Hayden) which was a finalist for the World Fantasy Award this year, and which is also very strongly feminist. In addition to creative writing, feminisim and sf/f, my academic interests include 19th century women's writing and trauma narrative. This spring I'll be giving two papers which may be of interest to people on the list; at the 7th Annual Cultural Studies Symposium ("Violence Incorporated") in Manhattan, Kansas in March, I'll be discussing Anne Rice's "Exit to Eden" as a fascinating but flawed attempt to construct a sexual utopia, and at the PCA conference in April I'll be giving a paper on the relationship between history, fantasy and physical illness in Connie Willis' "Lincoln's Dreams" and Geoff Ryman's "Was." Oh, yeah, and this spring I'll be teaching an American lit seminar contrasting works of American realism with works of fantasy published the same year (Sister Carrie and the Wizard of Oz in 1900, Native Son and Slan in 1940, Irving's Setting Free the Bears and The Last Unicorn in 1968, Kingsolver's Animal Dreams and Morrow's City of Truth in 1990). The point of the course will be to look at how apparently disparate texts nonetheless reflect shared cultural concerns. Well, that's probably a LOT more than anybody wanted to know. I'm glad to be on the list and have enjoyed what I've read here. Thanks for listening! Cheers, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:03:05 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MaryKay Bird-Guilliams Subject: Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Introducing myself after several posts, I really enjoy listservs in general and this one in particular. Found this listserv through lizt right after they brought up system wide netscape terminals in our library. The "flowers for algernon"/Charly continuum works very well for dating us, doesn't it? I read "flowers" in junior high. Took a class as an undergraduate at the U of Washington that I believe was taught by Suzy McKee Charnas on feminist SF. Vonda McIntyre and Ursula Leguin made guest appearances. About '72. Wonderful class. I work now as a reference librarian in Wichita, Kansas. Love the work, love libraries, love science fiction that doesn't repeat the premise that male values are universal values. Reading "the Moon and the Sun" right now. There are a number of great books being written recently on either alternative history or animals/human connection. Really liked The Woman and the Ape by Peter Hoeg. Also am enjoying the series by Pullman, The Golden Compass and the Subtle Knife. Being in a public library means you HAVE to keep up with what books are coming out. Gee, what a chore. Wish to express my admiration to all of you who write sf. I don't believe I possess the knack to produce that create entire fantastic worlds. "Everyone is a fool at least five minutes a day. Wisdom consists in not exceeding the limit." paraphrase of a quote which used "man" Mary K. Bird-Guilliams marykbg@wichita.lib.ks.us Reference Librarian Wichita Public Library ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Introductions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've posted a few times, but never did introduce myself after joining the list a few weeks ago. (Maybe it's been longer, life has been chaotic lately!) I've been an SF reader since I was 11 years old, when I discovered the genre with the help of our local librarian. She responded to my request for "stories about outer space" with "Raiders From the Rings," by Alan E. Nourse; and "Ordeal in Otherwhere," by Andre Norton. Glenna Nowell, it's all your fault! I spent my 20's teaching high school business education and writing every evening, all evening. I got to the place where instead of printed rejection slips I was getting letters from editors that were still rejections, but that explained why the mss wasn't being accepted; and at that point I went back to school full time and decided it was time to grow up and stop chasing rainbows. How foolish, in retrospect; but that's how it was at the time. Now I've been settled in as Director of the Division of Records Management Services at the Maine State Archives for the past 10 years, and I've started chasing the rainbow's end again. I hit that place in the 40's where you begin to think, "If I don't do what I really want to do with my life now, forget it!"; so one dark January afternoon I sat down at my PC and went back to my first love. "Exile's End" should soon be available from Electra-Light Books of London, Ontario; I have a couple of other projects underway. This list is a wonderful resource, and I'm enjoying it very much. As another poster has said, this is probably more than anyone ever wanted to know - but it's who I am in the proverbial nutshell. Nina Osier (mbarron@mint.net, because as an adolescent I believed every writer must have a pseudonym and mine was "Marianne Barron") ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:15:22 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: The girls of 1892 Comments: To: Albuquerque Journal Comments: cc: Suzette Haden Elgin , Jean Lamb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Your article on the girls of 1892 with their diaries focused on the contents of their characters rather than the shapes of their bodies inspired me to check out exactly who they were. If they were teenagers in 1892, they would have been born in the 1870s, right after the Civil War. This means they would have grown up to be the formidable Missionary Generation women like Jane Adams, Eleanor Roosevelt, Alice Paul, Edith Hamilton, and the suffragists. An inspiring look at the foremothers of today's middle-aged women in their youth! Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu 418 Dartmouth Dr SE Albuquerque NM 87106 268-4892 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:03:52 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Palwick Subject: Re: Introduction In-Reply-To: <9711078789.AA878939693@unicefusa.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Lori Schroeter wrote: > Susan, > > What was the plot of your book? I read a feminist ghost story about > child abuse once and it made quite an impression on me. I wonder if > they are one and the same? The story I recall was (I believe) about a > lesbian woman living in a suburban area. > > ---Lori > Mine's about a straight woman who's married, has a young daughter, and is remembering how her father molested her when she was twelve; to escape the abuse, she had out-of-body adventures, during one of which she met the ghost of her sister, who died before the protagonist was born and who'd always been held up as the "perfect" child by the rest of the family. Most of the book is about the developing relationship between the two sisters. If you remember the title of the book you're recalling, please let me know. I'm interested in how "fantastic" elements in abuse/trauma narratives help communicate the "untellability" of the tale, the difficulty of narrating it in any way that will make sense in the everyday world. Someday I want to teach a course on sf/f about historical trauma (Ryman's "The Unconquered Country," Willis' "Fire Watch," Yolen's "The Devil's Arithmetic," etc.). The course would address the question, "Why write fantastical narratives about events of which we have historical accounts?", and the way in which fantasy and science fiction help communicate the experience of *strangeness* is, I think, at the heart of the answer to that question. People living in Auschwitz or in Cambodia under Pol Pot might just as well have been living on another planet, for all the good conventional language will do at making us feel what it meant to be there. So in some ways, fantasy and SF are better at certain kinds of "realism" than realism itself is. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:34:24 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Introduction (Tardy) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Heya Everybody, I've been a subscriber to this list for a couple of months now and haven't posted much except, in a fit of shameless self-promotion, to brag, so my introduction is long overdue. Vonda N. McIntyre, feminist, sf writer; I had the great and inadvertent good fortune to get started writing right after the wave of feminist sf writers of the late 1960s dispersed the prevailing (if erroneous) belief that sf wasn't for women (as readers, writers, or characters). So I got to walk through doorways and holes in brick walls that others had broken through before I ever got there. (I am eternally grateful to writers such as Le Guin, Wilhelm, Russ, Delany, for making the field a lot wider and bigger; and I admire earlier writers such as Norton, Brackett, and Bradley for succeeding in a field and at a time when women were not supposed to succeed at what they were doing, especially this.) I don't remember learning to read, but the first thing I remember reading is an sf novel. (Heinlein... what can I say, it was the early 1950s.) I'm convinced that the novels of Andre Norton, bless her heart, kept me sane in junior high school. I like to think I've cracked if not broken a few walls in terms of subject matter, in sf, though sometimes when I'm sitting there nursing my aching head and somebody comes along and slips right past me through that hole I began, it's a little demoralizing. I helped put on the first incarnation of Clarion West, in 1971-2-3 in Seattle: a direct descendent of Robin Scott Wilson's original Clarion in Clarion, Pennsylvania, at which I was a student in 1970 (its last year). After that I spent a couple of years living in a cabin four miles down a logging road, which is about what you need after babysitting a writing workshop for three years. I've taught at the second incarnation of Clarion West a couple of times, but I didn't reincarnate it: Marilyn Holt and J.T. Stewart deserve that credit, as well as credit for the courage to do it even after I warned them about the difficulties, the time-sink aspects, &c. I have one-half of a mummified PhD in genetics, a first-degree black belt in Aikido, and 23 acres of reforested former clear-cut on the Olympic peninsula. The clear-cut is the only entity of the three with any likelihood of revivification. My original novels include _The Exile Waiting_, _Dreamsnake_, _Superluminal_, the Starfarers quartet, and, most recently, _The Moon and the Sun_. Contrary to a number of sf reference books, "Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand" was _not_ my first published short story. I've written a bunch of media tie-in novels, which are fun to do (nobody should do them who doesn't find them fun) and which subsidized several of my original novels. Naturally I don't think that Star Trek books are causing the end of science fiction as we know it, but that's a rant deserving of its own message. (One that I wrote but haven't decided whether to post.) Eileen Gunn wrote a biography of me that she kindly allowed me to post on my web page. I like to think it has few facts but much truth. The link to my web page is in my .sig. Best, Vonda http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda Some official good news at http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:40:29 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Pauley, Kimberly" Organization: Franklin Templeton Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: [*FSFFU*] The M Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I am currently out of the office and will return the afternoon of November 14th. If you have a question regarding the Classifieds site on the Intranet, I will respond to it once I return. In the meantime, if you submitted an ad, it will be posted once the Classifieds site goes live, approximately on November 21st. A Corporate Communication will be sent out at that time. If you are in the St. Pete Applications Development Department and you are having trouble with your PC, please contact the Help Desk at 34333. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:51:58 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephen Smith Subject: Re: from moderator: question re subscribers? Hello! This was a great idea to have people introduce themselves. I have enjoyed reading about everyone's hobbies, academic interests, and professions. About myself: I confess that I do not regularly read SF. I came upon the site one night while surfing the web for information on Angela Carter. I figured any site that contained information about her had to be a good one. Although, I cannot follow most of the discussions, I enjoy reading the messages. I almost took my name off of the list, then I saw a message about Gattaca...and well I decided to hang around a bit longer. Though I do not read SF, I do watch a lot of it. I was kind of hoping people would be interested in discussing SF film. I got my BA in Art History and my MA in Religious Studies. Right now I'm taking some courses in photography and computers. I am also following a degree scheme in English (another MA). I love literature, and my interests are in the revision of myth or fables. Furthermore, I am interested in the critical analysis of film and art. I also find cultural and social constructions of gender and sexuality fascinating. Presently, I work in the INterlibrary Loan dept at the University of Nebraska Medical Centre. Susan, I am interested in that conference being held in Wichita. COuld you give me more information? Well enough about me...I enjoy being on this listserv and am learning bit by bit :) Julien ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Introduction (Tardy) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vonda, please do post that so-called "rant"! I discovered your other books after reading one of your Star Trek novels, and I'm very glad that happened. Also, I will say shamelessly that I waited from 1966 until ST:Voyager came on the air wishing to see a female ST captain who wasn't a nut case (I'm referring to a certain episode of the original Star Trek, either you'll understand this reference or you won't) and that I thoroughly enjoy Kate Mulgrew's character. I forgot to say in my own introduction how I discovered this list. It was very simple, I was using my browser to look for anything on the subject of "feminist science fiction" and up it popped. Nina Osier Vonda N. McIntyre wrote: > I've written a bunch of media tie-in novels, which > are fun to do (nobody should do them who doesn't > find them fun) and which subsidized several of my > original novels. Naturally I don't think that Star > Trek books are causing the end of science fiction > as we know it, but that's a rant deserving of its > own message. (One that I wrote but haven't decided > whether to post.) > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:53:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Introduction (Tardy) In-Reply-To: <3472a4cb.341453546@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I've written a bunch of media tie-in novels, which >are fun to do (nobody should do them who doesn't >find them fun) and which subsidized several of my >original novels. Naturally I don't think that Star >Trek books are causing the end of science fiction >as we know it, but that's a rant deserving of its >own message. (One that I wrote but haven't decided >whether to post.) > Post it! Post it! Post it! Post it! Oh, yeah: please. -Sean Death has its own honor. To refuse to live is the height of dishonor. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jana C. McCormick" Subject: Seven Years in Tibet (The Movie) Seven Years in Tibet, an excellent movie, is an example of how the "teaching of compassion" depends upon the person and the setting/situation. >Neil Rest says: ><< the purpost of the culture of Tibet is to maximize compassion.>> For instance, fear of foreigners kept the people from providing temporary assistance. Until one man stepped in... I don't want to ruin the story for anyone. It's in theaters now. This is a true story and, I believe a wonderful opportunity, politically, for the people of Tibet to let Americans know what is going on. Americans are more likely to watch the movie than to seek out the few news reports concerning the oppression of people of Tibet and the Dalai Lama. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:04:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jana C. McCormick" Subject: Paradise Lost Although this is not science fiction, it is a true story about women during the 1940's and displays insight into the strength, ingenuity and determination to survive that women possess. It also answers many sociological questions such as hierarchical tendencies of women, man's inhumanity toward women and men and their ability to cooperate for a higher purpose. Besides, it's a wonderful movie and a true story about survival. The setting - a camp for prisoners of war during WW2 and the women and children are the main characters and occupants. There aren't enough movies about women and our strength of character in difficult situations. I wish there were more like this one. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jana C. McCormick" Subject: Paradise Lost, really Paradise Road I want to report an error. The movie is called Paradise Road. It is out on video and stars Glenn Close, Pauline Collins, Frances McDormand and Julianna Margulies. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:19:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"