Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9711C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:14:12 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Bradbury--was Re: SF or not SF; Atwood; Inclusiveness/Heinlein In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.16.19971114184942.0bff7326@pop.truman.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Martha Bartter wrote: > At 23:07 11/13/97 -0600, you wrote: > >On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Robin Reid wrote: > > > --snip-- > And Mike replied: > >It seems to me that anyone who thinks that Ray Bradbury isn't a science > >fiction or fantasy writer (not counting his mysteries and Irish stories) > >shouldn't be allowed to give papers or write about him because they > >obviously don't KNOW anything about him. > > > >Mike Levy > > > > > Mike: would you consider Ray Bradbury an ANTI-science fiction writer? > I do. > > Martha Bartter > Truman State University > Martha, Yes, to the extent that he's highly suspicious of much science and yes to the extent that he never was much interested in hard sf per se, but he's still writing within the genre more often than not. A significant percentage of what people like Pohl, Sheckley, Knight, and Leiber were doing back in the 50s was anti-science in the first sense. A signficant percentage of all sf is anti-science in the second sense. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:36:11 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: SF or not SF; Atwood; Inclusiveness/Heinlein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martha Bartter wrote: > And Mike replied: > >It seems to me that anyone who thinks that Ray Bradbury isn't a > science > >fiction or fantasy writer (not counting his mysteries and Irish > stories) > >shouldn't be allowed to give papers or write about him because they > >obviously don't KNOW anything about him. > > Mike: would you consider Ray Bradbury an ANTI-science fiction writer? > I do. Actually, I'm going to go far out on a limb with this one and think Mike and I are going to agree (for once): Bradbury, like Ellison, is a speculative fiction writer. I don't think that the argument can be made that he is "anti-" anything interms of science. Some of his works could be non-traditional SF, but I don't think that's anti-SF. - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:32:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: looking for recommendations for course In-Reply-To: <346C8991.B968E54E@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII it would be nice to NOT have an on-list debate about the millenium. to those who are interested in these questions i suggest you read stephen jay gould's newest QUESTIONING THE MILLENIUM wherein he addresses these very questions plus other related interesting matters. On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:25:41 -0400 > From: Geoffrey D. Sperl > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] looking for recommendations for course > > Keri Stone wrote: > > > Media and Millennium is a new course that explores a variety of > > futurist > > scenarios created by leading storytellers of our time. Readings will > > include > > a series of science fiction novels, short stories and essays by > > prominent > > writers, scientists and philosophers that explore the impact of > > technology on > > our lives beyond the year 2000. > > Pardon me, but the new millenium doesn't start until 12:01am, January 1, > 2001, so it should be "beyond the year 2001." > > - Geoffrey > > -- > "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect > > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:55:58 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: German woman SF writers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Are people aware of female German SF writers, especially modern? And is in fact Thea von Harbou, 1888-1954, German? Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:02:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Boltz Subject: Re: Hello, everyone! Hi Leann I'm Christine. I just got onto the feminist sf list this week. I also love science fiction, fantasy, and horror, but I think I may be in different situation than other fans of these genres. I did not read much of these types of literature until I was an adult (other than mass media icons Stephen King and Anne Rice--I have also read many of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels). In a perfect world I would run to my favorite used bookstore to buy all of the books that people have written about for the feminist sf list, but unfortunately I have limited time to read due to mundane things like work, school, etc. With this in mind, let me ask you this question: What would you say are the top ten "must read" books for someone who wants to become familiar with these genres--that is, what do you think are the top ten books that someone must read in order to discuss sf and horror with other fans, even if they are not necessarily your top ten favorites? Christine -----Original Message----- From: Buzz Review To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 7:07 PM Subject: [*FSFFU*] Hello, everyone! >Hi, I'm Leann. I love science fiction, fantasy and horror. I'm looking >forward to getting to know y'all. > >Leann >http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/buzzreview/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:44:35 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Feminist SF to make into film In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, yay! I always thought Kindred would make a good movie. "Reclusive"? On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:52:37 -0800, Freddie Baer wrote: >Very much on topic is this article I pulled off of the Sci-Fi Wire >web site (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/) > >11.22 am ET, 7-Nov-97 Butler's Kindred Headed To Film > >Kindred, the Hugo and Nebula Award-winning novel by famed SF author >Octavia E. Butler, is headed for the silver screen ... >According to Variety, the reclusive Butler, ... http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:23:34 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Feminist SF to make into film In-Reply-To: <346f25cb.964395368@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Well, yay! I always thought Kindred would make a >good movie. > >"Reclusive"? > I agree. I've always found her easy to get hold of and sociable. She just doesn't seem to initiate contact that much, I s'pose. She does, however, describe herself as a sort of oxymoron in that she's a hermit in the middle of Los Angeles. I'll have to congratulate her next time I yak at her. -Sean The problem with people is that they try to control everything. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:23:32 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Hello, everyone! In-Reply-To: <0c1540359060fb7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >What would you say are the top ten "must read" books for someone who wants >to become familiar with these genres--that is, what do you think are the top >ten books that someone must read in order to discuss sf and horror with >other fans, even if they are not necessarily your top ten favorites? > >Christine Probably this isn't really helpful, but read whatever you want. It's more true to yourself and, by extension, to others, to _remain_ true to yourself. Translation: these books are primarily entertainment. Serious at times and informative, but entertainment. Read what entertains you the best, what you love, and you'll likely be able to discuss it more intelligently because you'll have a great personal interest in the topic at hand. I dunno if there are ten "must read"s. I like to think not. All that said, some well-known and respected authors are: Octavia E. Butler, Vonda McIntyre, Suzy McKee Charnas, Melanie Rawn, James Tiptree, Jr., Nicola Griffith, Joanna Russ, Anne McCaffrey, Mickey Zucker Reichert, and Gwyneth Jones.). -Sean The problem with people is that they try to control everything. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gaya Bassham Subject: Re: Hello, everyone! > What would you say are the top ten "must read" books for someone who wants > to become familiar with these genres--that is, what do you think are the top > ten books that someone must read in order to discuss sf and horror with > other fans, even if they are not necessarily your top ten favorites? Do you mean feminist sf or sf in general? Ursula LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness would be on both lists for me. For feminist sf I would read Sheri Tepper, Octavia Butler, Joanna Russ. I don't know which books in particular: maybe Sheri Tepper's The Gate to Women's Country. Also read Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon if you haven't already and you like fantasy. There's also a collection of stories by James Tiptree, Jr. (a woman's pen name) called "Her Smoke Rises Up Forever." -- Gayla ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:12:27 -1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: SF or not SF; Atwood; Inclusiveness/Heinlein Comments: To: gamgee@GEOCITIES.COM Critics who define "anti-sf" have often struck me as short-sighted if not downright hostile to soft sciences like psychology and theology. I maintain that anti-sf does not exist -- sf is sf. Classifications of novels such as C. S. Lewis's Space Trilogy and Walter Miller's CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ as anti-sf have struck me as bigoted. By the definitions of anti-sf I've read, most apocalyptic literature would be classified as anti-sf, though it is clearly a subgenre of sf. At any rate, I've enclosed below an essay I wrote on the apocalyptic CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ, which I hope listmembers will find interesting. Cindy Smith English 806 Literary Criticism Fall 1997 Presentation The End of the World: A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ and Northrop Frye's Apocalyptic Archetype The End of the World is one of the most popular themes in science fiction and fantasy literature -- it is so popular, in fact, that it has its own name: Apocalyptic Literature. Some of the earliest known examples of apocalyptic literature include the epic of Gilgamesh, the Genesis Flood story, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Book of Daniel, and the Revelation to John. More recently, apocalyptic science fiction stories often deal with the nature of societies that develop after a major disaster such as war (including a nuclear holocaust or an invasion) or natural disasters (including floods, earthquakes, asteroid collisions, climate changes, plagues, fires, famines, or problems in the space-time continuum). Apocalyptic stories appeal to the survival instinct in human beings, the subconscious desire to be liberated from the fear of a major catastrophe (let it happen, come what may), and the subconscious desire to sweep away our technologically sophisticated but socially strait-jacketed society and start fresh (Clute and Nichols 337-338). As a result of this last, post-holocaust stories often picture human beings cast adrift because of their sudden disconnection from their social structures. Therefore, some of the best stories depict human beings clinging to what social structures are left after the catastrophe. Because humans in apocalyptic stories often become anti-technological, the social structure they cling to is often the culture of their religion. Such is the case with two classics in the apocalyptic genre: THE LONG TOMORROW by Leigh Brackett and A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ by Walter M. Miller, Jr. While THE LONG TOMORROW features the Mennonites as the people who restore order to civilization while vehemently opposing the technology that brought about the destruction of the world, A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ features the Catholics as the people who salvage what technological information they can in a monastery named after a pre-Deluge scientist named Leibowitz. For those who are not famililar with the story, here is a brief synopsis of the novel A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ: A monastery of the Albertion Order of Leibowitz preserves scientific and technological knowledge from before the nuclear holocaust in Texarkana. In the first third of the novel, "Fiat Homo," a novice named Francis discovers pre-Flame Deluge documents belonging to blessed Leibowitz including a schematic and a grocery list. The monks attempt to derive from the grocery list, a second class relic, a deeper meaning than the surface writing. Using the relics, the monks of Leibowitz Abbey attempt to have their patron canonized. Brother Francis spends 15 years of his life making an exquisite copy of the schematic which no one understands. Because the Pope had long ago issued a decree against the practice of killing deformed newborns, the mutants who often live in bands and attack travelers are called "the Pope's Children." On his journey back from visiting the Pope in the cause of canonizing Blessed Leibowitz, Francis Gerard of Utah is martyred by the Pope's Children and later canonized a saint himself. In the second section of the novel, "Fiat Lux," when the Abbey of Saint Leibowitz hears rumors of war from a nefarious leader named Mad Bear of the Plains, one Thon Taddeo travels to the abbey seeking documents and relics preserved for twelve centuries containing knowledge vital to the advancement of science. Brother Kornhoer astonishes the theoretical Thon Taddeo by demonstrating how to flood a room with light from a artificial light bulb. Science is once again on the march, but so are the nomads of the Plains who drink animal blood and worship many gods. An eloquent argument takes place about which is more important, science or theology. The answer seems moot when war comes. Miraculously, the abbey survives. In the third and final section of the book, "Fiat Voluntas Tua," spaceships again fill the skies, but then so does knowledge of nuclear war. Mutants are still fairly common, but people do not seem to learn the lessons of history. After the war begins, Dom Zerchi of the Monastery of Saint Leibowitz agrees to let the abbey grounds be used to treat the wounded, but forbids medical personnel from recommending the suicide allowed by secular law. The argument between Dom Zerchi and Doctor Cors about the ethics of suicide is eloquent and poignant, given the intense suffering of the victims of radiation burns, including a mother and her tiny daughter too young to understand why she must suffer. In the end, the second originally lifeless head of Mrs. Grales comes to life when the first head of Mrs. Grales dies in the nuclear attack, Abbot Zerchi baptizes the newborn Rachel head, and a starship from the Monastery of Saint Leibowitz heads for the stars. What Northrop Frye means by the word "Apocalypse" and "Apocalyptic" is sometimes different from and sometimes similar to the sense in which the expression in used in the phrase "Apocalyptic Literature." Following is one of his comments: What the Apocalypse proves to be is not a summary of biblical doctrines or even a summary of its historical narrative. It is primarily a vision of a body of imagery, where the images of every category of being, divine, angelic, paradisal, human, animal, vegetable, and inorganic, are all identified with the body of Christ. That means that all the images are metaphorically related, metaphor being expressed as a statement of identity, in the form 'this is that.' Whatever is not part of the body of Christ forms a demonic shadow, a parody of the apocalyptic vision in a context of evil and tyranny. This ultimate separation of vision from shadow, the heaven-world and the hell-world, is alluded to in the Gospel parables as a separation that human society cannot attain to in a world of time, but will see as the revelation that comes with the ending of time. Meanwhile, every unreality that the vision of hope in the mind perceives in the world around us is part of an apocalyptic judgment on that world" (Frye, MYTH AND METAPHOR: SELECTED ESSAYS 1974-1988, 101). I gather Frye tends to combine the destruction and rebirth of the world into one word: the Apocalypse. Frye seems to believe stories depicting events from creation to apocalypse represent what might be termed apocalyptic cycles (Frye, ANATOMY OF CRITICISM, 316-317). Many such cycles are depicted in the Bible: Creation in Genesis 1 to the apocalyptic banishment of Adam and Eve to the birth of Seth, the apocalyptic destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the rebirth of a cleansed world even as the descendants of Lot become the enemies of Israel, the apocalyptic Flood to the rebirth of humanity on the mountains of Ararat, the apocalyptic destruction of Israel and the rebirth of Israel from a remnant in the rediscovery of the law, the apocalyptic destruction of the Temple and its rebuilding, the apocalyptic death of the Messiah and his resurrection, etc. In other passages from other works, "it appears that he views the Apocolypse as the final separation of The Light from the shadows. Like many separations, it will be both violent and painful. We know this because it is occurring today, has always occurred today, and has always been violent and painful. One day it will be final" (John C. Medaille, email, 11-8-97). Similarly, for Walter Miller, the apocalyptic imagery in the novel A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ does not mean the final end of the world, but is rather, in accordance with the apocalyptic cycle, a violent and painful precursor to it. For Miller, the apocalypse is part of the apocalyptic cycle of the destruction and rebirth of the world in the Messianic Age. Hence, I will often use the novel's expression Flame Deluge to refer to the apocalyptic imagery of A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ, meaning the period of time during the destruction of the world but prior to the restoration of heaven. The expression Flame Deluge is in keeping with the idea that the novel is not an "Apocalypse" in the religious final destruction of the world sense of the term, despite the popular name of the genre, but is rather another Deluge story of apocalyptic destruction and rebirth on the order of Gilgamesh and Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gomorrah. I have read several literary critics who claim A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ by Walter M. Miller, Jr. is a satire or a dark comedy, but I read the novel as very serious literature. Admittedly, there are some comedic elements to it, as with any good novel, but the overall thrust of the novel is a serious examination of what might happen in a post nuclear holocaust world. Miller struck me as a serious Catholic. I have the impression, reading some of these critics, that they think Miller is satirizing the process of the canonization of saints who are often feckless sinners. Miller seems profoundly aware, it seems to me, that God often chooses "the foolish of the world to shame the wise...the weak of the world to shame the strong, and...the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might boast before God" (1 Corinthians 1:27-29). Admittedly, the holy grocery list is humorous, and some of the beliefs the people of the Abbey have about the pre-Deluge world are funny, but Miller's point may well be that these are probably the reactions of many of the saints in heaven who gaze upon people of the Church Militant in the modern real world trying to understand the ways of their ancestors before the industrial age. Indeed, he may be subtly poking fun at scholars who have written volumes speculating on the philosophy of the pre-Socratics based on a very few fragments of writings, or literary critics who try to derive depths of meaning from trivia. The underlying message of the novel is, as Northrop Frye might comment if he ever read it, highly Biblical: that humans have a dark nature, we learn nothing from history because we repeat the same mistakes but there is hope because we always rebuild, and the Church remains a bulwark against evil and a haven for the faithful. In THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION's biography of Walter Miller, Clute and Nicholls say: The novel is full of subtly presented detail about the nature of religious vocation and the way of life of an isolated community, deals ably with the questions of the nature of historical and scientific knowledge which it raises, and poses and intriguingly answers ethical questions about mankind's proper relation to God and the world....While A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ can be read as a work of Christian apologetics, WMM (like Gene Wolfe after him) clearly responds mythopoeically to the holy story -- and to the institutions -- of his Church, with effects both ambiguous and ironic. At the same time, however, his central commitment (like Wolfe's) is unwavering, and the cyclical pattern of the tale reads as anything but defeatist -- for the moment of Christ's Coming is not a matter of dead history" (582). Indeed, Northrop Frye would suggest that Miller regards the Body of Christ as the central archetypal figure of living history around which humanity's survival revolves. The journey of characters in the novel from feckless sinners to martyrs is a shadowy imitation of human history's journey from dark to light, which is a shadowy imitation of the Messiah's journey from incarnation to apotheosis, which is the ultimate reality of the apocalyptic cycle. Northrop Frye suggests that the cycles move up and down from dark humanity to redeemed humanity, from dark world to redeemed world (Frye, ANATOMY OF CRITICISM, 316-317). For Miller, the cycles move up and down from dark to redeemed to dark and back again, the cycles ever repeating, suggesting, again, that no one learns anything from history but there is hope since we continually rebuild, and the Church continues her fight against the forces of evil and continues her practice of offering refuge to people beaten by the same forces of evil. Miller's epic may well embody what Frye calls the "contrast-epic, where one pole is the ironic human situation and the other the origin or continuation of a divine society" (ANATOMY OF CRITICISM 317). Within the contrast-epic of Miller's moving from dark society to the re-establishment of light in the Abbey is the salvation of humanity concurring with the salvation of martyrs. For Miller, the myth of how the Flame Deluge occurred, as related on pages 171-173, is on one side, while the contrast of the Church living in a post-apocalyptic world is on the other. Thon Taddeo's search for scientific knowledge takes him to the abbey where he listens to an account of the end of the natural cycle, which is symbolized, as in the Bible, by a Deluge (albeit a Flame Deluge), and ends with the beginning of the divine cycle, which is symbolized by the establishment of the abbey of Leibowitz: "And a great stink went up from Earth even unto Heaven. Like unto Sodom and Gomorrah was the Earth and the ruins thereof, even in the land of that certain prince, for his enemies did not withhold their vengeance, sending fire in turn to engulf his cities as their own. The stink of the carnage was exceedingly offensive to the Lord, Who spoke unto the prince, Name, saying: 'WHAT BURNT OFFERING IS THIS THAT YOU HAVE PREPARED BEFORE ME? WHAT IS THIS SAVOR THAT ARISES FROM THE PLACE OF HOLOCAUST? HAVE YOU MADE ME A HOLOCAUST OF SHEEP OR GOATS, OR OFFERED A CALF UNTO GOD?' "But the prince answered him not, and God said: 'YOU HAVE MADE ME A HOLOCAUST OF MY SONS.' "And the Lord slew him together with Blackeneth, the betrayer, and there was pestilence in the Earth, and madness was upon mankind, who stoned the wise together with the powerful, those who remained. "But there was in that time a man whose name was Leibowitz, who, in his youth like the holy Augustine, had loved the wisdom of the world more than the wisdom of God. But now seeing that great knowledge, while good, had not saved the world, he turned in penance to the Lord, crying:" The mythic elements in Miller's novel make up an irony in terms of the future's continuity with the past. At the same time, Miller's characters have a profound discontinuity with the past which is only gradually repaired as the novel progresses. The characters in the story are connected to their past via their common humanity (including humanity's dark side) and common myths (including the myth of the Flame Deluge and the myth of Christ, not to mention the myth of the Church), but disconnected from national social structures (although new nations develop) and political structures (royalty redevelops in North America). In every culture, different myths survive; these are the myths that survive in the culture Miller has developed for his novel. The overarching myth of the entire story is, of course, the apocalyptic cycle mythic system. The cyclic history of the apocalypse can appear lunatic, which may be what Miller has in mind, but it is also very human and very Catholic, for it seems as though just as we approach a happy ending, tragedy strikes every time. However, every tragedy reflects the Catholic character of the story, as every good Catholic story ends in death in accordance with the myth of resurrection. Hence, every individual character in the story experiences his or her own apocalyptic cycle -- birth, death, resurrection (often with canonization thrown in for good measure). "A yearning for the survival of mystery, and an intellectual belief in the necessity of such a survival if human culture is not to become sterile and bleak," (Clute and Nicholls 851) pervades A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ as the Catholic background of the tale. The apocalyptic cycle is an intrinsic part of the Catholic Bible, and it is in this sense that the novel is highly Biblical in character. Miller weaves his story using an exquisite blend of folklore and mythology and religion with science and technology to protect society against a mythless future. The human nature of Brother Francis's quest for the sainthood of Leibowitz is one part of the contrast-epic dealing with the novice's confrontation with his own internal demons and vision of what he thinks is Leibowitz and ultimate salvation in martyrdom, while another part is the nuclear holocaust at the end of the novel which reads very much like the triumph of the Anti-Christ but with a loophole as the monastery's starship leaves Earth to attempt another beginning. Miller thus seems to want to have it both ways: The novel ends with the apocalyptic imagery of death and rebirth in one fell swoop but with the Beast of the Apocalypse still looming and humanity a victim of it (cf. Frye, ANATOMY OF CRITICISM, 317-318). Science fiction has oft been touted as the modern world's mythology and sates our appetites accordingly. James Blish is quoted in ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION as calling myth "static and final in intent and thus entirely contrary to the spirit of sf, which assumes continuous change" (849), and Miller's novel certainly embodies that spirit of continuous change, leaving even the ending of his novel open-ended. The myth of the Flame Deluge fulfills the purpose of explaining the way the post-Deluge society thinks. The apocalyptic tale within Miller's apocalyptic tale re-enacts the archetype much the same way as Shakespeare's play within a play in "Hamlet" re-enacts the murder of the king. When the brother reads the apocalyptic myth to the brothers and guests of the abbey, Miller is trying to lay the framework for the culture that produced the apocalyptic myth, even while the abbot rationalizes it, in order to express a truth that goes far beyond mere history but points to the moment when the apocalyptic cycle touches the eternal and allows that theme of the novel to be born. The novel in this moment expresses our humanity touching divinity in a way that makes the apocalyptic cycle relevant to our own and any culture (cf. Clute and Nicholls 849). Mythology in science fiction in general encompasses the idea that whenever cultures experience upheavals of any kind (whether revolutionary or evolutionary) that culture carries its past within it as an integral part of its being, and its past includes its mythical past as much as its historical past. Nothing is made out of whole cloth. All cultures are a product of their beginnings. Miller works through his novel of the future the ancient apocalyptic cycle and rewards his readers for his pains with a new vision of our own present. Any culture which destroys or falsifies its past (ala Plato) is doomed to failure because the emptiness left in its wake will only be filled with the seeds of that society's own destruction. Such a society can never experience rebirth but only the creation of something entirely other, probably based on an entirely different culture's mythos. For Miller, the archetypal myth of the apocalyptic cycle is the vision with which he sows the seeds of humanity's future. Furthermore, the seeds he sows contain both pessimism and optimism: pessimism that we can never change humanity's dark nature but optimism that perhaps we can overcome it, for if Miller thought the situation entirely hopeless, he wouldn't have attempted to instruct us with an apocalyptic novel of epic proportions. Why did Miller end his novel so ambiguously with a continuation of the apocalyptic cycle? Perhaps because there is only one really satisfying ending to the ultimate apocalypse, and God holds the copyright. Like most Catholics, Miller is an amillenialist and realizes profoundly that we human beings must "work out" our "own salvation in fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Works Consulted Clute, John and Peter Nicholls. THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION. New York: St. Martin's Griffin, 1993. Update 1995. Frye, Northrop. ANATOMY OF CRITICISM: FOUR ESSAYS. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1957. Frye, Northrop. THE GREAT CODE: THE BIBLE AND LITERATURE. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1982. Frye, Northrop. MYTH AND METAPHOR: SELECTED ESSAYS 1974-1988. Edited by Robert D. Denham. Charlottesville and London: University Press of Virginia, 1990. Frye, Northrop. WORDS WITH POWER: BEING A SECOND STUDY OF THE BIBLE AND LITERATURE. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1990. SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // CARPENTER _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< \\ _\\\_ _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< // /// \\\ \\ Cindy Smith \\\ \\ _///_ // _///_ // _///_ // cms@dragon.com <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Delay not your conversion Woe to craven hearts and drooping hands, to the LORD, to the sinner who treads a double path! put it not off Woe to the faint of heart who trust not, from day to day who therefore will have no shelter! Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 5:8 Woe to you who have lost hope! what will you do at the visitation of the LORD? Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 2:12-14 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:03:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Buzz Review Subject: Re: Hello, everyone! In a message dated 11/15/97 2:16:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, christine_b@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: > I'm Christine. I just got onto the feminist sf list this week. Hi, Christine! I think others have answered your question. I don't know if I could've done better. :-) Leann http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/buzzreview/index.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:04:24 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: Intro/tie-ins/Star Wars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny Rankine wrote: > I've been lurking for some months now, downloading all the book > recommendations for my next holdiays, and feeling frustrated by the movie > discussions. I live in Auckland, New Zealand, which takes around six > months to get Hollywood movies after they open in the US. So GI Jane > hasn't even got here yet. >From the land of Xena! Welcome to the list, Jenny. It's great to see people from outside the US participating. > ..... > Two quick questions - has Rosemary Kirstein produced a sequal to The > Outskirter's Secret, has Jayge Carr ever done a followup on Leviathan's > Deep, and does anyone know of any recent books by Janrae Frank? I hope > it's okay to ask these kinds of questions on this list. > > Jenny Rankine Actually that was three questions, but they're the perfect kind to ask here. I'm always interested in hearing about new authors and I'm not familiar with Carr or Frank. I really enjoyed Kirstein's books and would love to know when to expect the next. Anybody know? Jennifer -- Jennifer Krauel Director of Product Marketing jkrauel@actioneer.com 415.536.0715 fax 415.882.4372 http://www.actioneer.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ++ Actioneering: the art and science of getting it done ++ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:47:23 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: Maureen F. McHugh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sc wrote: > Hi all, > Someone - can't recall who - said they thought "China Mountain Zhang" > would make a good movie. I agree. I enjoyed it a lot, the characters are > so human and believable, and it's quite gripping. Has anyone read "Half > the Day is Night" by McHugh? I'm finding it a bit disappointing. The > writing is very good but the characters seem somehow more > one-dimensional than "Zhang" and the plot is difficult to grasp. Any > comments would be appreciated. > Cheers > SC I agree with your assessment. To be fair I had very high expectations after Zhang, so it's hard to imagine what wouldn't have disappointed. Makes sense that Half was written first as some have suggested. Some elements of the story, such as the underwater city complete with combustion-powered busses and the voodoo ceremony were quite vivid and live on in my mind. But the main characters were not compelling. I didn't really get the point of all the virtual war games, or perhaps I got the point the first time. And despite a great opportunity the female lead really was uninteresting. Hard to recommend a book when you don't care about the two lead characters. At any rate I'm really looking forward to her next book.Jennifer -- Jennifer Krauel Director of Product Marketing jkrauel@actioneer.com 415.536.0715 fax 415.882.4372 http://www.actioneer.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ++ Actioneering: the art and science of getting it done ++ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:25:47 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: X-Files In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Penelope, I wonder if the last season for X-files means they are going to kill them both. Honestly, thoughout the the show, I liked "separate" episods (about monsters, psychics, zombis, and serial killers) more than the ongoing thread about the alien/government conspiracy. It's something I am going to miss if they cancel the show. Marina On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Penelope Gibbs wrote: > Marina, > > I love the X-files despite its many faults. > Unfortunately, I am not real impressed yet this season. My roommate > fell asleep during the season premiere (sp?), and I almost did. I > hope the season picks up, but like you I was quite disappointed in > the scenario you have depicted (she is helpless and he is the > "hero"). I have heard it is the last season, but there is a movie > coming after the end of the season. > > Penny > > > > I know a lot of people don't like TV sf, but for those who do: What do > > you think of the new X-files season? > > > > I was kind of hoping that with death of her partner, agent Scully will become > > the center of the action. I am glad Moulder is alive (I like him a lot), but > > I was dissappointed that they reversed the roles again to more traditional > > scenario -- she's lying in coma, and he's risking his life to save her. > > Bringing in religion again, in my opinion is not a very great idea, > > either. It does not offend me, but I think it does not belong there. But > > in general, I think this season is going to be interesting. > > > > Marina > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > happens to be selling at the time." > > Naomi Wolf > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:35:49 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: X-Files In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Stephen Smith wrote: > Marina: > I think that religion does have its place on the series because it is the one > think that Scully has and will again believe in...that parallels Mulder's > belief in the "little green men>" She has faith in religion while Mulder > believes something less conventional. I think that really also explains the > two views...while Mulder seeks the unconventional "truth" Scully seeks the > conventional. I agree. However, it's one of the parts that makes me mad. Why is it always the woman who has to more conservative? It was even worse at the beginning, when she tried to "scientifically" explain everything that was going on. It would be nice to have a show someday, where the woman is "venturing into unknown" and looking for the "little green people" and the guy is hiding behind either science or religion. > I was a little disappointed with the "cliffhanger" episode this season, > because anyone and everyone who follow the show knows that they filmed a movie > for release next summer. Well, it could be a movie about something that happened before they would have died. Think _Twin Peaks Fire Walk with Me_. Besides, they could have been resurrected :) . It happened with Mulder once, didn't it? Remember that episode with Navajo Indians. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:23:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: German woman SF writers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Laura asks: > Are people aware of female German SF writers, especially modern? And is in > fact Thea von Harbou, 1888-1954, German? My World Encyclopedia of Film says she was born in Tauperlitz, Bavaria in 1888 and died in Berlin in 1954. "Wrote best-selling novels," including "Das Indische Grabmal" which she worked with Fritz Lang to adapt in 1919. Collaborated with Lang on all his films (including Metropolis) from 1920 to his departure for Hollywood in 1933. Married Lang in 1921, divorced 1934. Remained in Germany, directed two films in 1933 and 1934, worked on Nazi films. Wrote books and scripts after WWII. Besides Metropolis, I find in my books one other reference to an SF book by von Harbou: "The Rocket to the Moon," published by World in 1930 (surely a reprint edition of another hardcover), and reprinted as late as 1977 by Gregg (in paperback?). Perhaps there are others. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "We live in Gothic times." - Angela Carter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:33:32 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephen Smith Subject: Re: X-Files Interesting idea that women are always conventional...however think about "Contact" the man was pro-religion and the woman is pure science. I think that women are rarely associated with science or scientific thinking, logic and the like, so I find it refreshing that she is less controlled by her emotions. (Women are usually the "emotional" ones who don't go on anything but intuition, and men go on intellect. I think the roles are reversed in the x-files. I do agree that women should be a bit more daring and adventurous however. Well of course again you have "contact" where the female character is adventurous, but gets patriarchy in her face when she proves herself correct. I don't know what anyone else thought about that, but I was furious when her advisor/professor stuck his head in when the credit was about to be passed around. Julien ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of MARINA YERESHENKO Sent: Saturday, November 15, 1997 4:35 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] X-Files On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Stephen Smith wrote: > Marina: > I think that religion does have its place on the series because it is the one > think that Scully has and will again believe in...that parallels Mulder's > belief in the "little green men>" She has faith in religion while Mulder > believes something less conventional. I think that really also explains the > two views...while Mulder seeks the unconventional "truth" Scully seeks the > conventional. I agree. However, it's one of the parts that makes me mad. Why is it always the woman who has to more conservative? It was even worse at the beginning, when she tried to "scientifically" explain everything that was going on. It would be nice to have a show someday, where the woman is "venturing into unknown" and looking for the "little green people" and the guy is hiding behind either science or religion. > I was a little disappointed with the "cliffhanger" episode this season, > because anyone and everyone who follow the show knows that they filmed a movie > for release next summer. Well, it could be a movie about something that happened before they would have died. Think _Twin Peaks Fire Walk with Me_. Besides, they could have been resurrected :) . It happened with Mulder once, didn't it? Remember that episode with Navajo Indians. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:56:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gaya Bassham Subject: Re: X-Files In a message dated 97-11-15 17:50:46 EST, you write: << I agree. However, it's one of the parts that makes me mad. Why is it always the woman who has to more conservative? It was even worse at the beginning, when she tried to "scientifically" explain everything that was going on. It would be nice to have a show someday, where the woman is "venturing into unknown" and looking for the "little green people" and the guy is hiding behind either science or religion. >> I don't know. I would have said that The X-Files shows gender roles unconventionally in that the woman takes a "rational" hard-science approach and the man is given to flights of fancy. I guess it all depends on your perspective. Did you see Contact? Now there was a woman in search of "little green people"! -- Gayla ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: X-Files In-Reply-To: <971115205627_63097330@mrin54.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Gaya Bassham wrote: [snipped] > I don't know. I would have said that The X-Files shows gender roles > unconventionally in that the woman takes a "rational" hard-science approach > and the man is given to flights of fancy. I guess it all depends on your > perspective. [snipped] I don't watch the x-files practically at all but from what I have seen, what really matters is that she is always wrong. Seems fairly "conventinal" to me albeit in a possibly unconventional way. Maybe I just happened to see the episodes where she dismisses strange things because they don't fit her rigid little world and he makes brilliant deductions about super-natural phenomena. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:41:28 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gina Puc Subject: ecofeminism Content-Type: text/plain I am doing a term paper on ecofeminism and I was wondering if anyone out there has any ideas for a thesis? I would really appreciate any ideas! Thanks! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:14:19 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: ecofeminism Gina asked I am doing a term paper on ecofeminism and I was wondering if anyone out there has any ideas for a thesis? I would really appreciate any ideas! Thanks! My own historian's bias may be showing, but it could be interesting to explore the tradition of ecofeminism--though of course it wasn't called that earlier! But there was definitely the same sort of awareness in certain circles of the women's movement at least as far back as the 1890s Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:13:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Palwick Subject: Re: ecofeminism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII << I am doing a term paper on ecofeminism and I was wondering if anyone out there has any ideas for a thesis? I would really appreciate any ideas! Thanks! >> At the risk of sounding like a pedantic English teacher (well, that's okay, because that's what I am), I'm uncomfortable when people ask me for thesis statements about vast topics, not only because it smacks of paper mills but because it speaks to lack of interest in the subject. Because ecofeminism is explicitly about the connections between people and the rest of the world, I think you need to figure out your *own* connections to this philosophy. Presumably you're studying this because you care about it, right? Write about what moves you; write about what you're passionate about; write about your *own* ideas and theories and experiences. That approach will produce an *infinitely* better paper than surveying strangers for their own ideas would. Take it from one who knows: when students write papers without being fully engaged with the subject, the papers are really boring. Good luck . . . and don't be afraid of your own insights. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:13:43 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Carr/Frank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jayge Carr's _Leviathan's Deep_ was a fascinating role reversal novel of a woman-dominant world where males carried children in a sac in their bodies, and I've looked for any other books by her for years. I've only read one (1980s?) fantasy story by Janrae Frank called _The Ruined Tower_. From memory (I'm at work and my library is at home) it featured a very well written, slightly ragged female knight who conquers an unmanned but spellcast ruined castle which had defeated and killed a heap of male ones. The spell was of the "No man shall conquer me..." variety. (I hope I'm not getting this confused with a Tanith Lee story.) By the way, I got to this list through a link on the website of Massey University Women's Studies Department in Palmerston North, North Island, New Zealand. Jenny Rankine Jenny Rankine, Publicity Officer Health Research Council of New Zealand PO Box 5541, Auckland 1, Aotearoa New Zealand Visit our website http://www.hrc.govt.nz/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:55:52 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Fw: Barbies We'd Like to See (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu >>> >>>Sister Mary Barbie: This spiritual Barbie comes with jointed >>>knees and neck for genuflecting and praying, mini-rosary beads, >>>a mini-bible, and a stylish black sequined nun's habit (after >>>all, she's still Barbie). Pull the string on her back and she >>>says nothing because she's taken a vow of silence. >>> >>>Admin Barbie: Works twenty-hour days for little pay (80% of >>>AdminKen's salary) and is the lowest on the totem pole despite >>>being the one that actually runs the group. Comes with mini- >>>laptop. Pull the string on her back and she'll schedule a >>>meeting with your other dolls, replace the toner cartridge >>>in the laser printer, coordinate a re-org and a move, and >>>order airline tickets for Director Ken. >>> >>>Temp Barbie: This smartly dressed, intelligent, hard-working >>>and enthusiastic Barbie is ready to go right out of the box, >>>but usually goes untouched for at least a day while everyone >>>tries to figure out why they bought her. Pull the string on >>>her back and she'll stuff envelopes indefinitely, all the >>>while wondering why she got a liberal arts degree. Comes >>>with mini-resume, and mini-filing cabinet filled with the >>>past five years' worth of US Tax Code revisions, which need >>>to be collated. >>> >>>Ripped-Off-In-The-Divorce-Settlement Barbie: Pull the string >>>on her back and she unloads a torrent of insults and death >>>threats for her ex's new wife. Comes with a hatred for all >>>men and a Malibu Barbie tan (except for a white band on her >>>left-hand ring finger). >>> >>>Birkenstock Barbie: Finally, a Barbie doll with horizontal >>>feet and comfortable sandals. Made from recycled materials. >>> >>>Bisexual Barbie: Comes in a package with Skipper and Ken. >>> >>>Blue-Collar Barbie: Comes with overalls, protective goggles, >>>lunch pail, UAW membership, pamphlet on union-organizing and >>>pay scales for women as compared to men. Waitressing outfits >>>and cashier's aprons may be purchased separately for Barbies >>>who are holding down second jobs in order to make ends meet. >>> >>>Super Fly Barbie: Truly fly Barbie in midriff-baring shirt >>>and baggy jeans. Comes with gold jewelry, hip-hop accessories, >>>and plenty of attitude. Pull cord and she says things like >>>"I don't think so," "Dang, get outta my face, " and "You go, >>>girl." Teaches girls not to take shit from men and >>>condescending adults. >>> >>>*** The recent announcement that Mattel and the producers >>>of "Baywatch" have joined forces to create Baywatch Barbie >>>came as no surprise. After all, both companies have made >>>millions off airheads with flawless skins, Malibu tans and >>>synthetic breasts. If Baywatch Barbie sells well, other >>>Barbie/TV tie-ins seem certain to follow. >>> >>>Some possibilities: >>> >>>Melrose Place Barbie: Comes complete with her Barbie Dream >>>Apartment, where Skipper and the rest of the gang live rent- >>>free. Other accessories include a bottle of vodka, silk >>>sheets and an arrest warrant. >>> >>>Dr. Barbie, Medicine Woman: This helpful doll offers other >>>homesteaders important tips like what conditioner to use out >>>on the Plains and how to take care of their nails while >>>shoeing a horse. >>> >>>America's Most Wanted Barbie: She's on the run after 30 years >>>of crime against feminism. >>> >>>Talk Show Host Barbie: Push a button on her back and this >>>Barbie actually speaks! Hold your very own talk show with >>>topics like how tough math class is, Ballerina Barbie's >>>struggle with bulimia, Kens who wear Barbie's clothes. >>> >>>My So-Called Barbie: She faces the same troubling issues as >>>regular teens who don't have huge wardrobes, perfect bods, >>>pools, and ponies. >>>__________________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>change is inevitable - except from a vending machine... >> > Jean Lamb, from Klamath Falls, Oregon, tlambs@magick.net http://www.sff.net/people/jeanlamb. Just hired to work part-time at a library near me! (whip me, beat me, MAKE me get paid for working with books!). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:10:16 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Feminist SF to make into film In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Freddie Baer wrote: > Very much on topic is this article I pulled off of the Sci-Fi Wire > web site (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/) > > 11.22 am ET, 7-Nov-97 Butler's Kindred Headed To Film This is wonderful! > > Kindred, the Hugo and Nebula Award-winning novel by famed SF author > Octavia E. Butler, is headed for the silver screen courtesy of Def > Pictures and Polygram Filmed Entertainment, according to Variety. The > two film companies bought the adaptation of Butler's novel from > Nicholas Brandt and Bridget Blake-Wilson, with Brandt attached to the > project as director. Kindred is a time travel novel about a modern > black woman who is repeatedly drawn back to the 19th-century South by > her white, slave-owning ancestor. > Who will they cast in the lead? I see Whoopi Goldberg in the role, but the very ease with which I said this shows how badly Hollywood has fallen into the "we HAVE a black dramatic actress!" > Eventually the woman is faced with the choice of saving the man from > death, knowing that if she does so he will eventually enslave a > free-born black woman who will turn out to become her own > great-grandmother. Yes. I left that novel hideously depressed. > > According to Variety, the reclusive Butler, who was the recipient of > a MacArthur Foundation "genius" grant, has rarely allowed her novels > to be optioned for film. Actress Talia Shire held the rights to > Kindred for eight years, but when she failed to renew them in 1996, > they were snapped up by Brandt. --Sci-Fi Wire > Well --- it's not really a Talia Shire part, now, is it? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:04:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: list-admin stuff: good grief! Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ok, i just updated the archives section at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/listserv/ please be aware that this address will change soon - the last complete week was the biggest yet, 689K -- what a lot of talkers we have here! in other news we're hovering just under 300 subscribers. don't forget that if you need to unsubscribe you should send a note to: listserv@uic.edu and in the body of the note say: unsubscribe feministsf if you want to set your postings to DIGEST so that you get them in one lump sum each day then send the note to: listserv@uic.edu and in the body of the note say: set feministsf digest peace, everyone ... Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Carr/Frank In-Reply-To: <199711170119.OAA291830879729543@mail.iconz.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Jenny Rankine wrote: > Jayge Carr's _Leviathan's Deep_ was a fascinating role reversal novel of a > woman-dominant world where males carried children in a sac in their bodies, > and I've looked for any other books by her for years. I read that and loved it as well. I also read another book by her, _Navigator's Sindrome_ that is a look at slavery and includes quite a bit of gender-based stuff though I'm not sure what it meant. Anyway, it was IMHO a very good book on a purely story/readability front. I also read at least one short story by her that appeared in _Women of Wonder, the Contemporary Years_ called "Webrider". I loved that too. The back of that anthology lists a huge number of SF books and stories by women. Jayge Carr is listed as also writing _The Treasure Heart of the Maze_, _Rabelaisian Reprise_, "Blind Spot" (in _The 1982 Annual World's Best SF_), "Chimera" (in Synergy 4), and "Mourning Blue" (in Analog, Feb. 1993). I also remember reading somewhere (about the author on one of her books?) that she has is a Phd physicist of some kind and is a proffesor? I must admit that that impressed me to no end, especially given the content and character of her writing (it wasn't overly hard). Perhaps I should find those books and stories, read them, and if they're good form a fan club and write some "unofficial" web pages. :) Glad I'm not the only one who really likes her writing. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:23:08 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: ecofeminism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suggest picking up some Rachel Carson and going from there...the thesis will come in time. Also, you might, for fun, want to find Richard Grant's _Rumors of Spring_. However, you'll have to haunt your local used bookstore because Grant's novels never stay in print... - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:00:40 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: X-Files On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:25:47 -0600 MARINA YERESHENKO said: > Penelope, > > I wonder if the last season for X-files means they are going to kill them > both. Honestly, thoughout the the show, I liked "separate" episods (about > monsters, psychics, zombis, and serial killers) more than the ongoing thread > about the alien/government conspiracy. It's something I am going to miss > if they cancel the show. > I suspect that the characters (Scully and Mulder) will not die. I am with you on the monsters/zombies etc. I looked forward to the rerun of the "Peacocks" and the "Golem" (sp? and possibly not the correct titles) but never saw them (so you might say I am missing them already)...did they run them again? Scully is portrayed as quite the independent women...but with something "missing" in her life (as is Mulder). So I find that the episodes go back and forth as to which character is the "more scientific" Vs. "emotinal". I personally find nothing wrong with showing emotion. I am a scientist (Microbiologist) and believe me, the vast majority of scientists are NOT objective or unemotional about their research. How can one not be quite concerned with the thing you are spending your life on? So, the display of emotion does not indicate to me that they are "downplaying" Scully's stamina or the ability to be objective, but instead can be giving her the drive she needs to keep going. I grant you, however, when the emotions go unchecked, this can lead to great difficulty (as oftentimes with Mulder). Is this not a universal HUMAN flaw, and not gender-related!?! And again, Mulder does this more often than Scully. What ticks me off is when emotion is pointed as a giant flaw for women (or men, for that matter). I think emotion can be quite empowering. One must latch onto the emotion, harvest the energy it provides, and go forward with the issue. I have found this true in myself as I have been fighting a very emotional battle over gay rights here in Athens, GA. I have never had so much extra energy in my life...and although we are losing the battle, I have never felt so empowered!! What I like the most about some of these episodes (besides govt. conspiracy) is that some of them are not complete fantasy. Coming from the South, I was mesmerized by the "Peacock" episode. We always heard that this goes on in the "backwoods"...and as a child I was always curious about that. Now, as an adult, I live in the "backwoods", and I think I see families (to put it in Southern lingo) "that ain't right". However, I do not visualize them as malevolent as the Peacocks' appeared to be. Of course, I do not know them at all as I have only seen them. I find the science fiction I enjoy the most is that which may not be as much "fiction" as they are "possibilities". i.e. _Brazil_, the movie. I found it a little too much like today to be comfortable. Penny ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:14:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Carr Comments: To: Joel VanLaven In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a comment on Jayge Carr's Levianthan's Deep (and hi there Jenny, I too am a New Zealander but I happen to be living in Toronto at the moment doing my PhD: bloody cold, but did you know that NZ is rated as having the coldest temperatures in the house in winter in any developed country?). liked the heroine Kimassu (?) very much: the novel is a neat role reversal. In a land where "women rule" the males of the species are deprived of all opportunities to improve themselves, and consequently are shallow, frivolous sexual objects. Sounds familiar. The critique of colonism is also rather neat. However, there are two things about the novel that really made me uneasy. The first is the homophobia: defined within the Kimassu's world, it is a perversion. And the major evil earthman (Clem) is a queer: his evil is linked to his sexuality. The second is the relationship between Neill and Kimassu: companionate heterosexuality (with Neill educating Kimassu and his ideology dominating) becomes the ideal and all other relationships are subsumned to this ideal. This also sounds familiar. Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:10:36 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Re: Maureen F. McHugh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Palwick wrote: > Check out McHugh's web page! She has some great stuff on it, including a > wonderful, wonderful essay about being a stepmother. What's the URL? SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:57:45 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Palwick Subject: Re: Maureen F. McHugh In-Reply-To: <3470C064.7E9@schant.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The URL of McHugh's web page is: http://www.en.com/users/mcq/ Enjoy! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:11:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: German woman SF writers? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:55 11/14/97 -0800, you wrote: >Are people aware of female German SF writers, especially modern? And is >in fact Thea von Harbou, 1888-1954, German? > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > >"If I can't dance, I don't want to be >in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman > > FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL > > Thea von Harbou actually wrote _Metropolis_ -- the novel and the screenplay for the 1927 film. I understand that she remained in Germany and did promo writing for Hitler after her husband removed himself from the premises. I think she's echt deutsch. Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:21:44 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: German woman SF writers? In-Reply-To: <199711160123.UAA25860@mime2.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 15 Nov 97 , DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > > Laura asks: > > > Are people aware of female German SF writers, especially modern? And > is in > > fact Thea von Harbou, 1888-1954, German? > > My World Encyclopedia of Film says she was born in Tauperlitz, Bavaria > in 1888 and died in Berlin in 1954. "Wrote best-selling novels," > including "Das Indische Grabmal" which she worked with Fritz Lang to > adapt in 1919. Collaborated with Lang on all his films (including > Metropolis) from 1920 to his departure for Hollywood in 1933. Married > Lang in 1921, divorced 1934. Remained in Germany, directed two films in > 1933 and 1934, worked on Nazi films. Wrote books and scripts after WWII. > > Besides Metropolis, I find in my books one other reference to an SF book > by von Harbou: "The Rocket to the Moon," published by World in 1930 > (surely a reprint edition of another hardcover), and reprinted as late > as 1977 by Gregg (in paperback?). Perhaps there are others. > Well, David already answered half of the question. 'The Rocket to the Moon' must be 'Die Frau im Mond', which was done as a German Musical under yet another title in the fifties. I've seen it once in my teens. Some weeks ago I was asked by another list member about German female sf writers and therefore I looked around in the bookstores (note, I could not answer offhand). That's my state of knowledge: 1. There are hardly any German sf writers (about 20 novels and short stories are published at the utmost each year, including anything remotely connected to sf and fantasy (e.g. incl. children/youth literature with fantasy elements)). A few sf and fantasy writers are relatively well-known (Wolfgang Jeschke, Wolfgang Hohlbein, Hans Dominick (he has written mostly in the twenties and thirties)), the rising talents are Marcus Hammerschmidt, Andreas Eschbach, Gert Heidenreich (all male). 2. From the list of novels and short stories I have seen for 1995 (about 15 titles) only 2 were written by women, one novel in the children/youth section, the other a short-story. I can look up their names if anybody wants to know. 3. Barbara Neuwirth has published a collection of short stories under the title 'Dunkler Fluss des Lebens' in 1995 (it seems to be out of print already). It is not sf or fantasy but more in the 'phantastic tradition' (please do not ask me to define that). I think one can conclude from the stories that BN is a feminist. BN is Austrian, not German. 4. Fabienne Paklieppa is another female author who has published in a German phantastic literature series (Der Himmelsstuermer), but I have not read her and cannot say if she is feminist or not. 5. Marlen Haushofer (another Austrian) published 'Die Wand' (The Wall) in the fifties. That is a literary novel (I want to say it is NOT popular fiction) employing one fantastic element to start the story. I mention this novel because in that respect it reminds me of 'Kindred' from Butler. MH was rediscovered by feminists a few years back. She has written about 10 novels, in which she explored the role of women. A friend of mine did her master thesis on MH's novels, so I read some of them. IMHO they are very good but also very depressing. But only 'Die Wand' contains a fantastic element to my knowledge. In summary, there are no generally known modern German female authors writing in the sf or fantasy genre. Science fiction and fantasy is sold a lot in Germany but it is nearly all translated from the English. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:50:59 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Barbies & such -- slightly On Topic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those of you who don't track such things, G.I. Joe has issued a 12" female helicopter pilot this year, and many toy collectors i know are converting her from a US military pilot to an "Aliens" figure. :) Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:15:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Fw: Barbies We'd Like to See (fwd) The saddest Barbie I ever saw was naked, armless, and hairless, being used by a couple of preschool girls as a digging tool. I tried not to think of any symbolism! Frances Green Web site: http://gayellowpages.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:27:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Douglas Endicott Subject: Remove MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- Remove me from your list serve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:32:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Douglas Endicott Subject: Remove me! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- Remove me from this list server! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:01:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Remove me! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Remove yourself! What, do we *always* have to do all the work?? At 12:32 PM 11/17/97 -0700, Douglass Endicott wrote: >---------- >Remove me from this list server! > > Erm, I'm kinda joking. Laura pointed out: don't forget that if you need to unsubscribe you should send a note to: listserv@uic.edu and in the body of the note say: unsubscribe feministsf Heather ;) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: German woman SF writers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Petra says: > Well, David already answered half of the question. 'The Rocket to the Moon' > must be 'Die Frau im Mond', which was done as a German Musical under yet > another title in the fifties. I've seen it once in my teens. Dave says: Further research: Die Frau im Mond (Girl in the Moon) was a novel then a screenplay written by von Harbou, and directed by Fritz Lang in 1929, a follow-up to Metropolis, silent. It was supposedly the first SF movie to include scientific ideas about space travel, based on ideas of novelist Hermann Oberth. Supposedly no complete print exists (?). It's about a troubled expedition to find gold on the moon. I don't detect anything feminist about the storyline, but there was a woman stowaway, who stays behind on the moon with her engineer fiance because of an air shortage on the ship. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "We live in Gothic times." - Angela Carter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:14:19 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: [Fwd: [*FSFFU*] Intro/tie-ins/Star Wars] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------88AFFD0096C3E4F1F8E46D7A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------88AFFD0096C3E4F1F8E46D7A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this didn't get posted to the entire list so I'm forwarding it. -- Jennifer Krauel Director of Product Marketing jkrauel@actioneer.com 415.536.0715 fax 415.882.4372 http://www.actioneer.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ++ Actioneering: the art and science of getting it done ++ --------------88AFFD0096C3E4F1F8E46D7A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from UPIMSRGSMTP09 ([207.68.152.53]) by mail.actioneer.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA211 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:27:57 -0800 Received: from upmajb06 - 204.95.110.89 by msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:29:20 -0800 Date: Sun, 16 Nov 97 12:00:01 UT From: "Lesley Hall" Message-Id: To: jkrauel@ACTIONEER.COM Subject: RE: [*FSFFU*] Intro/tie-ins/Star Wars Return-Path: Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com has Jayge Carr ever done a followup on Leviathan's Deep As far as I know, Carr has never written a follow-up to this particular novel, but has produced a trilogy (which I don't think ever made it to paperback): Navigator's Sindrome, The Treasure in the Heart of the Maze, and Rabelaisian Reprise. The name Janrae Frank sounds vaguely familiar but I can't actually recall reading anything by her--certainly not a novel. Details welcome! Some while ago I picked up a novel by B J Salterberg 'The Outlander: Captivity' (published 1989) which appears to be the beginning of a trilogy/sequence: does anyone know anything about it? Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com --------------88AFFD0096C3E4F1F8E46D7A-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:39:00 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Remove In-Reply-To: <19971117183059.AAA20436@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >---------- >Remove me from your list serve Douglas, Try "unsubscribe femsf" (minus the quotes). Later. -Sean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:37:53 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: X-Files In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree that there is nothing wrong with Scully showing emotions. That's part of what makes the show attractive (as does the sexual tension between Scully and Mulder). I even think that if Mulder and Scully did not care that much about what they were doing (to the point of life and death) we wouldn't either. It would be something like Psi-Factor, which can be curious, but no one would put it on a T-shirt (at least I would not). What is interesting is that when you say that Scully is more "scientific", it is often understood "opposite to emotional". What I meant was the fact that women (Scully in this case) are always portrayed as -- well -- dogmatic. Be it totally rational dogma, like science, or purely faith-based, like religion (which is also emotional, so in that matter Scully is pretty balanced). Either one extreme, or the other, or both, but never something in between. It seem never occur to the TV people that a woman can be simply curious about strange and irrational things, no matter where they might turn out to be coming from: aliens, government, international conspiracy, Satan, or "unknown forces of nature". Whatever the heck they are, it does not make them any less exciting. As it is for Mulder, kind of. I truly believe that his quest for a lost sister was in a way just an excuse to get into all this interesting stuff. Otherwise, he would go and kill himself when he finally found her and she refused to have anything to do with him. Not when someone told him the aliens were fake. I would really like to see a female character, who is not simply either scientific or emotional. (By the way, the tradition of "more matirialistic nature of women" is just as old as the one that makes them "more emotional". Think of all the women characters who "do not understand" the spiritual quest of their artistic/poetic husband/boyfriend, bugging him to "grow up and get a real job"). It would be nice to see a woman who is open-minded and adventurous, and explores the world without clinging to ready-made explanations of science or church. Someone who comes up with her own theories and proves them. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:35:41 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > It would be nice to see a woman who is > open-minded and adventurous, and explores the world without clinging > to > ready-made explanations of science or church. Someone who comes up > with her > own theories and proves them. Marina- They exist! :) Primarily in mystery novels, but they do exist... However, I suppose you're looking for SF characters that fit that mold...and none of the X-Files silliness (I've never liked the show and found all of the characters and plotlines just plain dull) can really do it... The first character that comes to mind is Dr. Susan Calvin, Asimov's focal character for many of his robot stories. Granted she comes with her own emotional baggage, but doesn't everyone? She's also dated by Asimov's era and dear John Campbell's iron-fisted control over SF, but she would probably be the proto-character of the one you're looking for... Who else? 1) Capt. Janeway? 2) Princess Leia has some insight, but she's rarely given the chance to shine 3) Ripley's a possibility, but I don't think she's quite what you're looking for (maybe that will change with _Alien Resurrection_ 4) Xena? Not my favorite (not even my least favorite), but perhaps 5) Delenn from _Babylon 5_ almost seems to fill out the character-type you're looking for (though Elizabeth Lockley, Tracy Scoggins's character for the new TNT _B5_ projects, might be even better...or might not) - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Barbie News Since Barbie's been on the list lately, I figured I'd mention that apparently they're releasing a version of Barbie with an expanded waist and a diminished bustline. I think it's Hula Barbie, but I'm not positive. They're apparently only releasing the one with the "non-traditional" measurements, but... who knows. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:24:07 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Mythology book query In-Reply-To: <3439f2b0.328988370@mail.oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I saw a reference to a book about myths as they might have existed before being reinterpreted by Greek, Roman, and/or Xian culture, but I cannot for the life of me remember what the title of it is. Please forgive my adding one of those ubiquitous use-net "please identify this book for me" messages to the mailing list, but if anyone knows the reference, I'd sure appreciate having it. Thanks in advance, Vonda http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:12:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: X-Files In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If Scully were emotional, people would say "Just like a woman!" Since she's not, they fuss because she isn't showing a full range of emotion. All together, now, the modern female marching song ... "Everything we do is wrong!" Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:52:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) Comments: To: "gamgee@geocities.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The main character of Elizabeth Moon's _Remnant population_ is a bright determined older woman who decides to stay behind when her colony picks up and leaves the planet. sheryl > ---------- > From: Geoffrey D. Sperl[SMTP:gamgee@geocities.com] > Reply To: gamgee@geocities.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 12:35 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Independent Female Characters (was: > Re:X-Files) > > MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > > > It would be nice to see a woman who is > > open-minded and adventurous, and explores the world without clinging > > to > > ready-made explanations of science or church. Someone who comes up > > with her > > own theories and proves them. > > Marina- > > They exist! :) > > Primarily in mystery novels, but they do exist... > > However, I suppose you're looking for SF characters that fit that > mold...and none of the X-Files silliness (I've never liked the show > and > found all of the characters and plotlines just plain dull) can really > do > it... > > The first character that comes to mind is Dr. Susan Calvin, Asimov's > focal character for many of his robot stories. Granted she comes with > her own emotional baggage, but doesn't everyone? She's also dated by > Asimov's era and dear John Campbell's iron-fisted control over SF, but > she would probably be the proto-character of the one you're looking > for... > > Who else? > > 1) Capt. Janeway? > > 2) Princess Leia has some insight, but she's rarely given the chance > to > shine > > 3) Ripley's a possibility, but I don't think she's quite what you're > looking for (maybe that will change with _Alien Resurrection_ > > 4) Xena? Not my favorite (not even my least favorite), but perhaps > > 5) Delenn from _Babylon 5_ almost seems to fill out the character-type > you're looking for (though Elizabeth Lockley, Tracy Scoggins's > character > for the new TNT _B5_ projects, might be even better...or might not) > > - Geoffrey > -- > "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect > > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Stahl, Sheryl wrote: > The main character of Elizabeth Moon's _Remnant population_ is a bright > determined older woman who decides to stay behind when her colony picks > up and leaves the planet. > sheryl [snipped] I think we will find a lot of such women in literature. Finding them in popular culture is another matter entirely. However, since we are on the subject, (and it is on-topic for this list !?!?), I feel I must put in a vote for the female scientist in David Brin's Earth. She founds and gives real science to Gaia Theory, consequently becoming a goddess figure for all sorts of Gaia religions. After that she does not sit on her laurels but is very active and exploratory. I don't want to ruin for anyone, but she is a central character and is smart, excited, unattached (though not neutered), and IMHO one of the coolest characters ever. I can't remember her name but sometimes I can't remember the names of my closest friends. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:30:47 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@Best.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: Barbie News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where *do* you get your Barbie news? :D If it is "Hula Barbie" I wonder if this expanded-waist-and- diminished-bustline Barbie is also goingto have brown skin and eyes with black hair? Or will she be her perky, blond caucasian self? If they are going to introduce such a shocking thing as a Barbie who looks a bit less impossible, I wish they'd start with the blonde, original version of Barbie. Lindy Barbara Benesch wrote: > > Since Barbie's been on the list lately, I figured I'd mention that apparently > they're releasing a version of Barbie with an expanded waist and a > diminished bustline. I think it's Hula Barbie, but I'm not positive. > They're apparently only releasing the one with the "non-traditional" > measurements, but... who knows. > > Barbara Benesch > BJBenesch@aol.com -- "If I had my past life to live over, I'd make all the same mistakes, only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.best.com/~laorka Resources related to women, disabilities and literature ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:16:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Teragram Subject: Re: Barbie hits the Big Time (if not quite realtime) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Found this on CNN's site. (And while they're at it, the article says, they'll be giving her a less vacuous expression.) NEW YORK (AP) -- Barbie has an appointment with the plastic surgeon for a top-to-bottom makeover, and it may cost her some of her famous curves. Mattel Inc. plans to give Barbie new, more realistic proportions and a less made-up face, The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday. The doll's new look -- including a wider waist, slimmer hips and a smaller bustline -- is to be officially unveiled at the toy industry's annual trade fair in January. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:39:29 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > vote for the female scientist in David Brin's Earth. > > -- Joel VanLaven > One of my all-time favorite books Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:52:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Subject: A Letter from Barbie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know it isn't really on-topic, but considering the barbi conversation we've been having lately, I think it's fitting. If you don't like it, just delete it. Think of it as a day brightener. > Dear Santa: > Listen you little troll, I've been helping you out every year, > playing at being the perfect Christmas present, wearing > skimpy bathing suits in frigid weather, and drowning in fake > tea from one too many tea parties, and I hate to break it to > you Santa, but IT'S DEFINITELY PAYBACK TIME! There had > better be some changes around here by next Christmas, or > I'm gonna call for a nationwide meltdown (and trust me, you > won't wanna be around to smell it). So, here's my holiday > wish list for 1997: > 1. A nice, comfy pair of sweat pants and a frumpy, oversized > sweatshirt. I'm sick of looking like a hooker. How much > smaller are these bathing suits gonna get? Do you have > any idea what it feels like to have nylon and Velcro crawling > up your butt? > 2. Real underwear that can be pulled on and off. Preferably > white. What bonehead at Mattel decided to cheap out and > MOLD imitation underwear to my skin?!? It looks like cellulite! > 3. A REAL man...maybe G.I. Joe. Hell, I'd take Tickle-Me Elmo > over that wimped-out excuse for a boyfriend Ken. And what's > with that earring anyway? If I'm gonna have to suffer with > him, at least make him (and me) anatomically correct. > 4. Arms that actually bend so I can push the aforementioned > Ken-wimp away once he is anatomically correct. > 5. Breast reduction surgery. I don't care whose arm you have > to twist, just get it done. > 6. A jogging bra. To wear until I get the surgery. > 7. A new career. Pet doctor and school teacher just don't cut > it. How about a systems analyst? Or better yet, an advertising > account exec! > 8. A new, more 90's persona. Maybe "PMS Barbie", complete with > a miniature container of chocolate chip cookie dough ice > cream and a bag of chips; "Animal Rights Barbie", with my > very own paint gun, outfitted with a fake fur coat and > handcuffs; or "Stop Smoking Barbie", sporting a removable > Nicotrol patch and equipped with several packs of gum. > 9. No more McDonald's endorsements. The grease is wrecking > my vinyl. > 10. Mattel stock options. It's been 37 years - I think I deserve > it. OK, Santa, that's it. Considering my valuable contribution > to society, I don't think these requests are out of line. If > you disagree, then you can find yourself a new bimbo doll for > next Christmas. It's that simple. > Yours truly > ~Barbie Becca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:09:40 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: The Jeli's Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, think I should introduce myself before I start posting. My name is Cami, I'm from Oregon, don't have as much time to read as I used to (mainly due to two little boys), but I'm able to squeeze in a half-dozen books a year. >5) Delenn from _Babylon 5_ almost seems to fill out the character-type >you're looking for (though Elizabeth Lockley, Tracy Scoggins's character >for the new TNT _B5_ projects, might be even better...or might not) I like Delenn's character so much because she is well-balanced. She is strong without being hard, capable of great love but can be merciless. But I have to admit that my all-time favorite character on tv has been Claudia Christian's Susan Ivanova. I think of myself as a "strong" woman but her strength on the show astounded me sometimes. It is so unusual to see a woman like that on tv. I especially liked the contrast between her and Marcus--she was tough and focused, while he was the romantic (and a virgin if you're willing to stretch your imagination to its uttermost limits:). I actually got chills when she was on the bridge of the White Star: "I am Death Incarnate." :-o Cami ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ utaar@cnnw.net http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/7115 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "What we call human nature in actuality is human habit" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:08:03 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: A bodaciously good book Comments: To: Suzette Haden Elgin Comments: cc: Jean Lamb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII RITA WILL by Rita Mae Brown, in hardback. Her autobiography. Though if you're read SIX OF ONE, BINGO, and to some extent RUBYFRUIT JUNGLE, you have a lot of it. She's worth reading any time except for that tennis novel which was a dead bore. The big thing is, did you think those novels were exaggerated? Especially about Mom and Aunt M? I mean, li'l ol' SOuthern ladies are, on the surface, as sweet and pecan pie and tres genteel? Hah! She didn't exaggerate! They are *characters*!!! Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:48:00 -0800 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome Cami: Join the fray...I'm delurking to welcome you. Some late Season 4 B5-related spoilage does dwell here... insert spoilersbane x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x The Jeli's wrote: > I like Delenn's character so much because she is well-balanced. She is > strong without being hard, capable of great love but can be merciless. > But I have to admit that my all-time favorite character on tv has been > Claudia Christian's Susan Ivanova. I think of myself as a "strong" woman > but her strength on the show astounded me sometimes. It is so unusual to > see a woman like that on tv. I especially liked the contrast between her > and Marcus--she was tough and focused, while he was the romantic (and > a virgin if you're willing to stretch your imagination to its uttermost > limits:). > I actually got chills when she was on the bridge of the White Star: "I am > Death Incarnate." :-o > > Cami I like Delenn, but when she goes into the channeling Nancy Reagan mode and her dialogue goes from the sublime to the ridiculous ('Oh John!' ad nauseam) I wait for Sheridan to go out of the scene so she can go back to her real self. I admire Delenn's character, but I'd much rather watch Ivanova (an avatar of the warrior goddess in my humble opinion). I wasn't sure if anything would top the B5 mantra (I will listen to Ivanova, I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations, Ivanova is God...etc.) but that last big speech on the White Star bridge where she calls herself the daughter of vengeance and death incarnate was just awesome. That permanently enshrined her right up there with David Weber's Honor Harrington in the pantheon for me. Damn, I'm going to miss her (and Marcus too!). Season 5 won't quite be the same. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) Comments: To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" In-Reply-To: <3471292A.74C53A5@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > The first character that comes to mind is Dr. Susan Calvin, Asimov's > focal character for many of his robot stories. Granted she comes with > her own emotional baggage, but doesn't everyone? She's also dated by > Asimov's era and dear John Campbell's iron-fisted control over SF, but > she would probably be the proto-character of the one you're looking > for... > > Who else? > > 1) Capt. Janeway? I'd add in Buffy and Willow from Buffy:The Vampire Slayer with the comment that they should be viewed as teenagers with all the emotional baggage that entails. Willow in particular seems to be starting to get over her teenage gawkiness, and learning to take charge of a situation. They did some nice character progression in the latest demon episode. It's Willow who figures out how to take the tools they have on hand and expell and control the demon from her computer science teacher. Buffy also is able to take advice from the past, religion, and such and use what is useful about it while adapting it to suit her needs. Showing my age by talking about this show, I guess, Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 04:42:59 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: New Genre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wonder... Maybe the reason my book is having such trouble as a genre-straddling novel is that it belongs to a genre I didn't even know existed till after the book was published... Vonda >The yearly "Best SF Romance of the Year" award, given by the Science >Fiction Romance newsletter, is collecting nominations for the best >cross-genre books (last year's winner was Laurell K. Hamilton's Bloody >Bones). Top ten nominees are published in the December issue of SFR, >winner announced in January. > >For more details, or to nominate up to five books, see the SFR website, >http://members.aol.com/sfreditor/bestsfr.htm. > >Please copy this announcement to any other listserves etc. for which you >feel it is appropriate. > >Thanks, >Jennifer Dunne >Editor, SF Romance >http://members.aol.com/sfreditor http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:07:24 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you're looking for strong female SF characters, I'm not sure they come, at least in movies, any stronger than Lt. Ripley, and I'm not just saying that 'cause another installment of the _Alien_ movies is coming out next week. She's tough, smart and compassionate toward those who deserve it, and that's barely scratching the surface. Of course, I hear she's undergone some pretty major changes from _Alien3_ to _Alien: Resurrection_ and I'd guess that personality changes would be simply a matter of course. -Sean >On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > >> The first character that comes to mind is Dr. Susan Calvin, Asimov's >> focal character for many of his robot stories. Granted she comes with >> her own emotional baggage, but doesn't everyone? She's also dated by >> Asimov's era and dear John Campbell's iron-fisted control over SF, but >> she would probably be the proto-character of the one you're looking >> for... >> >> Who else? >> >> 1) Capt. Janeway? > >I'd add in Buffy and Willow from Buffy:The Vampire Slayer with the comment >that they should be viewed as teenagers with all the emotional baggage >that entails. Willow in particular seems to be starting to get over her >teenage gawkiness, and learning to take charge of a situation. They did >some nice character progression in the latest demon episode. It's Willow >who figures out how to take the tools they have on hand and expell and >control the demon from her computer science teacher. >Buffy also is able to take advice from the past, religion, and such and >use what is useful about it while adapting it to suit her needs. > >Showing my age by talking about this show, I guess, > >Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 >\|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, >=0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." >/|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:14:30 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: New Genre In-Reply-To: <34846e02.1310613852@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is to all of the published novelists out there: I hear it's a great feeling to hold your book, in published form, in your hands for the first time. Does that feeling fade with subsequent books? I'm curious. I've no idea how this relates to feminism, unless I describe myself as a feminist SF author who's waiting for that first book-in-hand feeling. -Sean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:14:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: New Genre In-Reply-To: <34846e02.1310613852@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I wonder... > >Maybe the reason my book is having such trouble as >a genre-straddling novel is that it belongs to a >genre I didn't even know existed till after the >book was published... > >Vonda > Vonda, Your message had as its time 4:42 am 11/19/97. Geez, where are you? England? I thought you were in Seattle. The SF romance thing sounds interesting, but I wonder if it crosses the line into space opera. -Sean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: X-Files In a message dated 97-11-18 15:07:06 EST, Pat Mathews wrote: > If Scully were emotional, people would say "Just like a woman!" Since > she's not, they fuss because she isn't showing a full range of emotion. > All together, now, the modern female marching song ... "Everything we do > is wrong!" > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu Thank you Pat!! Let's not forget, Scully _does_ work for the biggest Old Boys Club in America - the U.S. Government. And in the FBI, showing one's emotions - particularly for a woman - is probably not such a good idea. I mean, after all, these are special agents we're talking about, doing work which they probably can't discuss with their families. It only makes sense for them to not only develop "poker faces", but also to develop a certain detachment - a separation, if you will, of work and home. Because a person who cannot keep their emotions *well* under control and out of sight probably would not get hired by the FBI, gender aside. As a woman working for the FBI, Scully pretty much *has* to overcompensate in order to avoid any accusations that she *can't* keep her emotions under control. Also, from interviews I've read, Chris Carter decided to make the female agent the scientific one because he was tired of the woman in a partnership always being the more empathic, more "cosmically attuned" half of the duo. Yes, as the series goes along, Mulder gets proved correct more and more often, but that was kind of the point of the series from the start. That there's more out there than we think. I'd also like to address a comment I saw go by a few days ago, regarding the season finale/premiere, that Mulder was going to kill himself after finding out the alien was a fake, but not after finding out that his sister didn't want anything to do with him. That's not how I saw it. How I saw all that was that he was going to kill himself after finding out that it was his crusade that was costing Scully - the only person in the world he trusts beside himself - her _life_, after realizing finally that the person at the end of that crusade didn't want him. Not only had the purpose for his entire _life_ been in vain, but even if he called a halt to it *right then* it was still going to continue to cost him and those around him dearly. Otherwise, I'd have to say that I really enjoy the X-files, and also am not minding too much Scully's continued resistance to the "truth." For a while I was getting frustrated by it, and even accused her of suffering from "Lois Lane Syndrome" (a curious inability to see that which is right in front of your face), until I started watching old episodes more carefully, and realized that many many things we the viewers witness, Scully got excluded from "somehow". I'll grant that sometimes it got cheesy (gee, Scully took the wrong turn in the woods, Scully is on the other side of the door while this strange thing happens, etc.), but it does explain why Scully can continue to deny the "truth". There have also been hints along the way that maybe Scully's refusal to believe stems from some sort of repressed memory that she isn't willing to track down within herself. As always, this is just me talking, so feel free to consider it hooey. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:50:21 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia Gonsalves wrote: > Damn, I'm going to miss her (and Marcus too!). Season 5 won't quite > be > the same. Actually (from what I've heard), JMS has written everything so that Ivanova could come back into the series at any second (walking around the station, just out of camera range, mayhaps?). As for Marcus...I have no idea... :( - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:17:58 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: New Genre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's still cool. Especially when it's pretty. Vonda On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:14:30 -0600, Sean Johnston wrote: >This is to all of the published novelists out there: I hear it's a great >feeling to hold your book, in published form... http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:16:56 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: New Genre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Sean, Dunno why the message is marked GMT. My record of it says 18 November 4:42, which was the time in Seattle when I sent it. The sf-romance folks don't restrict their interests to space opera, as far as I can tell (given that I know hardly anything about the genre). The Starfarers books probably would have fit that slot. Moon & Sun isn't space opera by a long shot; but it is (in my perception) sf. And it's sure romantic as hell. Best, Vonda On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:14:26 -0600, Sean Johnston wrote: >> >Vonda, > Your message had as its time 4:42 am 11/19/97. Geez, where are >you? England? I thought you were in Seattle. > The SF romance thing sounds interesting, but I wonder if it crosses >the line into space opera. > >-Sean > >"I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:33:40 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@Best.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: New Genre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I haven't read The Moon and Sun yet. What is the genre confusion about? And is it a problem in marketing the book? Pardon me if I missed an earlier message which explained the genre question. Lindy Vonda N. McIntyre wrote: > > Hi Sean, > > Dunno why the message is marked GMT. My record of > it says 18 November 4:42, which was the time in > Seattle when I sent it. > > The sf-romance folks don't restrict their > interests to space opera, as far as I can tell > (given that I know hardly anything about the > genre). The Starfarers books probably would have > fit that slot. Moon & Sun isn't space opera by a > long shot; but it is (in my perception) sf. > > And it's sure romantic as hell. > > Best, > > Vonda > > On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:14:26 -0600, Sean Johnston > wrote: > > >> > >Vonda, > > Your message had as its time 4:42 am 11/19/97. Geez, where are > >you? England? I thought you were in Seattle. > > The SF romance thing sounds interesting, but I wonder if it crosses > >the line into space opera. > > > >-Sean > > > >"I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston > > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda > The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's > "Best Books of 1997" > http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 -- "If I had my past life to live over, I'd make all the same mistakes, only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.best.com/~laorka Resources related to women, disabilities and literature ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:38:05 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: New Genre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Lindy, The Moon and the Sun is a historical novel. Or it's a historical fantasy. Or maybe it's an SF novel, only how could it be, since it's set at Versailles in the court of Louis XIV, the Sun King, in 1693? It has sea monsters in it, so it must be about magic. (That was the comment that really threw me for a loop... but then a lot of critics called Dreamsnake a fantasy.) And it's certainly the closest thing to a classical romance that I've ever written. (Maybe it's a breath mint, who knows?) Anyway, a bunch of reviewers have declined to review it even though they _said_ they liked it (maybe that translates to "it's covered with sci fi cooties," I dunno), but they couldn't "pigeonhole" it in a particular genre, so they were going to ignore it. So when I saw this reference to the sf romance, I thought -- and I'm being quite serious; I'm not in the least trying to make fun of the genre -- maybe _that's_ what I wrote this time. Vonda >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: New Genre >From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" >Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:33:40 -0800 > >Hi, > >I haven't read The Moon and Sun yet. What is the >genre confusion about? > > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:36:07 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: L Garforth Subject: Re: looking for recommendations for course In-Reply-To: <971114120236_1181164829@mrin43.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Keri Stone wrote: > Hi, > > One of my collegues has asked me for some recommendations for his class next > semester. I teach in a private high school (the students are fairly > sophisticated readers). He is interested in novels, short stories and essays > by women I know that they currently read Gibson and Stephenson and some > other cyberpunk novels, and he is disturbed because he does not have any > female authors. Although I read a ton of sci-fi, I mostly stay away from > cyberpunk so I wasn't sure what to recommend. I guess it doesn't have to be > cyberpunk, but it should cretainly focus on technology of the future. Delurking to second whoever nominated Piercy's _He, She and It_ (or _Body of Glass_ as we get it over here in Britain). ONe of the more interesting things about the novel is the way it explicitly connects social impacts of imagined future tech with a long history of man's (sic) meddling with nature and the body via the Golem myth, and in doing so broadens out the idea of 'technology' to include any such meddling. I love this book, and hate the way it gets overlooked in cyberpunk writing, which can then be simply categorised as boystown visions (which admittedly much of it is...). I also just finished reading K Stanley Robinson's _THe Gold Coast_ which deals nicely with future tech in terms of two main strands - first, the dominance of a car economy, and all its horrific fall out (physical, social, psychological), and second, the expansion and intensification of the military industrial complex. I don't know whether I should actually recommend this, since to be honest I found it a bit of a drag to read (god, it must have taken me near a month to get through, and I kept putting it off to read more pressing things like the local paper, cereal packets, etc) - also I kind of hated the assumption that the mid-21 centry would feature nuclear families in which the gender roles of my grandparents were dully acted out, but friends love it and I really enjoyed the other novels in the 'ORange County' trilogy. On balance, worth a look. A quick re-introduction cos it's sooo long since I engaged with this list: I'm Lisa and doing post grad work at York University England on utopian fiction and environmentalist visions of sustainable futures. I've been carefully noting potentially useful texts from everyone, so thanks, but I don't get enough time to read anywhere near enough to keep up with this list. Back to the sidelines, I suppose... Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:59:30 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: German woman SF writers? In-Reply-To: <199711172058.PAA34088@mime2.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote > Well, David already answered half of the question. 'The Rocket to > the Moon' must be 'Die Frau im Mond', which was done as a German > Musical under yet another title in the fifties. I've seen it once in > my teens. Well, I was wrong about the German musical. I got a reprint of the novel from the library. In the comment on the book the novel and the film of 1929 are mentioned but never any remake. Furthermore, the storyline does not fit with what I remember of the musical. On 17 Nov 97 , DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > Dave says (about _Die Frau im Mond_): > Further research: Die Frau im Mond (Girl in the Moon) was a novel then a > screenplay written by von Harbou, and directed by Fritz Lang in 1929, a > follow-up to Metropolis, silent. It was supposedly the first SF movie to > include scientific ideas about space travel, based on ideas of novelist > Hermann Oberth. Supposedly no complete print exists (?). To what do you refer here? A complete print of the novel? no, it exists. Of the movie?, it is on video (at least according to the list of our video shop). Another correction: In my email on German female SF writers I mistakenly said that Marlen Haushofer published _The Wall_ in the fifties. 1962/3 is correct. The Wall was published by Cleiss Press in 1991 but is out of print (information from Amazon bookstore). The following review of the novel is given by Amazon: >From Kirkus Reviews , 08/01/91: Originally published in German in 1962 and touted more recently as a feminist's Robinson Crusoe, this somber classic from prize-winner Haushofer chronicles the experiences of a (nameless) woman cut off from her familiar city ways in a remote hunting lodge, after Armageddon has snuffed out all life in the world beyond. With the woman's diary of activities during the first two years of isolation as foundation, the story assumes the shape and flavor of a journal. Saved from instant death by a transparent, apparently indestructible wall enclosing a substantial area of forest and alpine meadow, the woman finds relief from her isolation in companionship offered by a dog, a cat, kittens, and a cow and her calf, making them into a family that she cares for faithfully and frets over incessantly with each season's new challenges. Crops of potatoes, beans, and hay are harvested in sufficient quantity to keep all alive, with deer providing occasional meat for the table, but the satisfaction of having survived long winters and a halcyon summer is undone by a second sudden and equally devastating catastrophe, which triggers the need in her to tell her story. Although heavy with the repetition of daily chores, the account is also intensely introspective, probing as deeply into the psyche of the woman as it does into her world, which circumstances have placed in a new light. Subtly surreal, by turns claustrophobic and exhilarating, fixated with almost religious fervor on banal detail, this is a disturbing yet rewarding tale in which survival and femininity are strikingly merged. Not for macho readers. -- Copyright ©1991, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:48:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Mythology book query -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Vonda-- I could give you a list of works on ancient Near Eastern (Mesopotamian, Egyptian, etc.) mythology, but if you're looking for a specific book, I'm not familiar with it. Debra (editor, writer, archaeologist) >>> "Vonda N. McIntyre" - 11/18/97 3:24 AM >>> I saw a reference to a book about myths as they might have existed before being reinterpreted by Greek, Roman, and/or Xian culture, but I cannot for the life of me remember what the title of it is. Please forgive my adding one of those ubiquitous use-net "please identify this book for me" messages to the mailing list, but if anyone knows the reference, I'd sure appreciate having it. Thanks in advance, Vonda http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: German woman SF writers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Petra on Die Frau im Mond: > To what do you refer here? A complete print of the novel? no, it > exists. Of the movie?, it is on video (at least according to the list > of our video shop). Dave: My reference stated that no complete print of the film existed - but my reference was from a 1977 book (The Great Science Fiction Movies, Scarecrow Press). Perhaps a complete print has been found since then, or perhaps the video is from one of the incomplete versions. If it's incomplete, there will be gaps particularly in the first reel. Of course when turning the film into a video they could cover plot holes from missing film with title cards. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "We live in Gothic times." - Angela Carter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:07:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: New Genre And genre in genral... A while ago I was looking for Octavia Butler's story collection at the Queens (NY) central library, I was disconcerted to find that "Kindred" was shelved with Black Writers, though others were with the SF collection. I talked to the librarian about it, and asked whether, since they had several copies, at least one could be filed with SF, which he agreed was reasonable, and in fact he did. (I've spot-checked since.) But I couldn't seem to push hard enough to get the duplication going the other way. I have mixed feelings about the whole genre assignment deal, expecially in libraries. On the one hand, it's useful to be able to focus on SF or Mystery or Horror or Romance (if only to avoid them if one is expressly uninterested in a category). On the other, of course, readers who don't go to the genre shelves may miss things they'd enjoy if the title caught their attention; and where a writer works in different categories, titles may be missed entirely. (Joan Aiken comes to mind: I enjoy her work, some titles more than others, and I check for her in children's and young adult as well; now with The Cockatrice Boys she's "officially" in Fantasy, though I'm not clear why that one seems to have been marketed to the adult market. (And if anybody has a copy of "Not What You Expected" they'd like to sell, please let me know!)) I've been sneaking our local branch library's copy of Tepper's "Gibbon" into the rather chaotic new books display, and have been gratified to see that it's been checked out several times recently. The local SF collection is very small, so the scope for this subversive behavior is narrow. My personal ideal would be for genre books to be shelved with everything else, with identifying tags attached, so one could spot SF by a Black writer (or maybe a Gay Black writer when we come to Delaney, for instance). Even with the single tag, it is sometimes difficult to read the author's name, so there's clearly no ideal solution (smaller tags, maybe?). Frances Green http://gayellowpages.com PS: I enjoyed The Sun and The Moon enormously. PPS: And what about Judith Merkle Riley (sorry, I may have misspelled her)? Strong fantasy elements, but always shelved with the general stock. I love the way she points up the historical context of her heroines, with their guilt feelings about their inappropriate activities! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:33:58 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: looking for recommendations for course In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, L Garforth wrote: - also I kind of hated the assumption that the mid-21 > centry would feature nuclear families in which the gender roles of my > grandparents were dully acted out, but friends love it and I really > enjoyed the > other novels in the 'ORange County' trilogy. On balance, worth a look. I think it's really quite likely. These things come around and then go around. The Georgian period was much wilder than the Regency, which in turn was much less (publically) stuffy than the Victorian Age. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:01:09 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: L Garforth Subject: Re: looking for recommendations for course In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Pat wrote: > I think it's really quite likely. These things come around and then > go around. The Georgian period was much wilder than the Regency, which in > turn was much less (publically) stuffy than the Victorian Age. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews I take your point, but I guess I was thinking generationally - so if you think that Kevin (I think) 's parents in the novel would be like the same age as my (hypothetical) kids, or something (wow, that was clear), it's hard to imagine they would be any more like me than my great-grandparents are (were, actually). Sorry if the generations got all mixed up, there! I think my real gripe is that Robinson doesn't offer any reason or discussion of why those patterns would repeat within the novel, which looks at the extrapolation of current social trends - and I guess divorce, serial marraiages, and the (possibly overstated, but nonetheless observable) decline of the nuclear family should be included there. LIsa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Who else? > > > > 1) Capt. Janeway? > I must comment that I've been very amused to notice that the recent articles (that seem to be everywhere, not just in TV Guide!) on "the new Star Trek women" either barely mention or completely ignore the Janeway character. I relate this to the apparent mind-set of a recent posting on the Pocket Books BBS that asked something like (this is definitely not an exact quote): "John, how does putting a babe on a Star Trek book cover affect the book's sales? Janeway doesn't count." Which to me doesn't indicate that Kate Mulgrew is not an attractive woman; it just indicates that the character she portrays has been accepted by ST fandom, with the initial fuss over her presence quite forgotten. This is an attitude transformation that's familiar to us 40-something women who have many times gone somewhere first, caused consternation, and have since become - yes - just normal members of the cast in our own career settings. Nina Osier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:51:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) Comments: To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" In-Reply-To: <3471292A.74C53A5@geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > > The first character that comes to mind is Dr. Susan Calvin, Asimov's > focal character for many of his robot stories. Granted she comes with > her own emotional baggage, but doesn't everyone? She's also dated by > Asimov's era and dear John Campbell's iron-fisted control over SF, but > she would probably be the proto-character of the one you're looking > for... > I remember that when I started reading Asimov's book with Dr. Calvin, it was really exciting to see a woman-scientist character. However, I did not like the fact that he made her a total freak -- lonely, childless, ugly, and with no life outside her job. For me, it was another statement, that "if a woman it too smart, she must be an ugly old maiden, and if she wants to pursue a career in science, there must be something physically and mentally wrong with her". In other words, "if there were a man who wanted her, she would not bother her pretty little head with all that deep stuff". He was showing that in every little detail, referring to her "uglinness" every time she was mentioned. Finally, it made me mad to a point when I stopped reading the book. I used to like Asimov, but with Susan Calvin, I think he created a character that he did not appreciate enough to treat the way she deserved. > Who else? > > 1) Capt. Janeway? > I agree that she's a powerful character, even though I don't like her too much. She reminds me of my department chair, who has a big pro-life poster in her office, and who told me once that sexist remarks is actually the way men show that they like you, and therefore, I should be flattered. However, as in case of Margaret Thatcher, I believe that any powerful woman promotes female equality just by the fact of her existance, no matter how conservative she is. Besides, everyone does not have to think the way I do. > 2) Princess Leia has some insight, but she's rarely given the chance to > shine I agree. I wish there was a forth part of Star Wars, where Leia would go for the training Luke did. After all, she had the same powers, since she was his sister. > 3) Ripley's a possibility, but I don't think she's quite what you're > looking for (maybe that will change with _Alien Resurrection_ Ripley is the best! I think if there were an award for the best action movie actor, I would give it to her. > 4) Xena? Not my favorite (not even my least favorite), but perhaps I like Callisto way more. Even though she's "evil", in my opinion, she has a lot more personality. Besides, I can't stand the numerous references to Xena's "criminal past". > 5) Delenn from _Babylon 5_ almost seems to fill out the character-type > you're looking for (though Elizabeth Lockley, Tracy Scoggins's character > for the new TNT _B5_ projects, might be even better...or might not) I like her a lot. Among all (and I know that a lot of people don't like that) for the fact that she proves that a powerful woman can still have a boyfriend. I think it's important to remember that kicking bad guys' butts does not mean you can't date the cool ones. Affection does not always imply weakness. And the fact that her man is not a perfect character I see as a sign that a woman does not have to always look up to her partner. Strong men date cute bimbos, why can't strong women? Besides, if all heroes stay single, they might eventually become extinct... Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:00:13 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: X-Files In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Pat wrote: > If Scully were emotional, people would say "Just like a woman!" Since > she's not, they fuss because she isn't showing a full range of emotion. > All together, now, the modern female marching song ... "Everything we do > is wrong!" That's true. But I think she does show emotion, at least as much as one would expect from a FBI agent. Besides, her ability to keep "straight face" is one of her admirable sides. I love the way she maintains even and cool voice while sticking her hands in corpses during examinations. She is not a "fainting" type, there's little that can freak her out, and that's her strength. I just wish she could think more independently instead of bouncing between "scientific" and "religious" explanations. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:34:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) In a message dated 97-11-19 01:28:40 EST, Sean Johnston wrote: > If you're looking for strong female SF characters, I'm not sure they come, > at least in movies, any stronger than Lt. Ripley, and I'm not just saying > that 'cause another installment of the _Alien_ movies is coming out next > week. She's tough, smart and compassionate toward those who deserve it, > and that's barely scratching the surface. Of course, I hear she's > undergone some pretty major changes from _Alien3_ to _Alien: Resurrection_ > and I'd guess that personality changes would be simply a matter of course. > > -Sean I would have to agree. Here's a character who was able to remain strong, independent, smart, _and_ sexy even during a time when the only women Hollywood was willing to present were housewives, ill, in danger (and needing rescue by their "men"), or dead within in the first 20 minutes of the movie (in order to give their "men" a reason to hate the bad guys). Oh, and there were the evil single women. Ripley managed to avoid all of those traps, and while the movie does have Ripley fighting another female (thus reducing the end battle to a "cat fight") over a child (appealing to the idea of "maternal instincts" causing her ruthlessness), she's still a better feminist role model than most movie women at the time. Let's not forget that she stood her ground against a board of inquiry regarding the incidents of the first movie, insisted on making herself useful on board the station during the brief time before she was sent with the marines ot Acheron (the planet where most of the action takes place) by learning a new trade. Then, when she was sent on with the marines to Acheron, she continued to pull her own weight with the rest of the crew, and refused to be cowed in the face of marine bravado. (Also, Vasquez, the *really* gung-ho female marine, was a pretty good feminist character as well, having established her place as a member of the squad, and the men treated her accordingly. And for a gung-ho marine, I have to say she didn't come across as "butch" as they could have made her.) Also, let's keep in mind her budding relationship with Corporal Hicks. I was very disappointed in the third movie for a number of reasons. Killing Newt and Hicks before the beginning credits were over was a good indicator for me that I'd spent my money unwisely. Then, the final indignity: Ripley has sex for the first time in who *knows* how long, and then dies soon after. Anyway, (as you might have guessed) I'm seconding Sean's motion that Ripley *definitely* counts as an Independent Female Character. And for those who now know more about the Alien series than they bargained for - sorry, it's something of an obsession in this household. Long Live Ripley! Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:06:44 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > I remember that when I started reading Asimov's book with Dr. Calvin, > it > was really exciting to see a woman-scientist character. However, I did > > not like the fact that he made her a total freak -- lonely, childless, > > ugly, and with no life outside her job. For me, it was another > statement, > that "if a woman it too smart, she must be an ugly old maiden, and if > she > wants to pursue a career in science, there must be something > physically > and mentally wrong with her". In other words, "if there were a man who > > wanted her, she would not bother her pretty little head with all that > deep stuff". He was showing that in every little detail, referring to > her > "uglinness" every time she was mentioned. Finally, it made me mad to a > > point when I stopped reading the book. I used to like Asimov, but with > > Susan Calvin, I think he created a character that he did not > appreciate > enough to treat the way she deserved. > You know, it's been a long time since I've looked at those stories, but I always thought he was using Calvin to show the hypocrisy that science sometimes thows itself into, and I don't think that a male scientist would have worked... Calvin has to be uncomfortable in her surroundings (and I seem to remember that there was some sort of emotional breakdown she had), and has to make the reader uncomfortable. I think Asimov appreciated her to the extreme, and that he didn't disrespect her, but he realized that he had to break the norm if he was going to discuss social commentary, and Calvin broke the norm in that she was the "wrong" sex for science at the time, she had horrible self-esteem (Whereas all the males in various stories always tend to smile sweetly and say "It'll be fine, sweetie."), she was rather selfish and withdrawn. I find her more representative of the scientific community in this country (I'm biased for personal reasons on that point - no offense meant to any science folks out there) than the vast number of male scientists, smoking their pipes and smirking (like Pierce Brosnan did so well in _Mars Attacks_) in the SF lit at the time. Do I like Susan Calvin? No, no more than I like Travis Bickle (_Taxi Driver_). Do I find myself oddly identifying with her at times? Yes, very much so. I think Calvin is supposed to be an anti-hero, and therefore isn't supposed to be well-liked. But we are supposed to dislike her due to her personality, not the fact she's a woman... - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:12:23 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: New Genre In-Reply-To: <19971119.140858.19222.0.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you, if you mean my book. Vonda On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:07:22 -0500, Frances Green wrote: > > >PS: I enjoyed The Sun and The Moon enormously. > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:12:54 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Debra, that would be great. Maybe off-list email? I fear I may be going off-topic with this. Best, Vonda On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:48:27 -0500, Debra Euler wrote: >Vonda-- > >I could give you a list of works on ancient Near Eastern >(Mesopotamian, Egyptian, etc.) mythology, but if you're looking for a >specific book, I'm not familiar with it. > >Debra >(editor, writer, archaeologist) > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:28:03 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Devil's advocate alert! ****Please,**** don't think any of this is my personal opinion... And what of the arguments that Ripley is the same "last girl" seen in slasher films, from _Texas Chainsaw Massacre_ to _Halloween_ to _A Nightmare on Elm Street_? If the argument of the last girl is that the girl is becoming the masculine, and turning the beast/monster/horror into the feminine, where does that leave Ripley? Is she merely Rambo with more estrogen? - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:07:14 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Alien Resurrection Comments: cc: Jean Lamb , Suzette Haden Elgin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII How many Orson Scott Card fans have seen the trailers for Ailen Resurrection? Doesn't it remind you of XENOCIDE? With Ripley facing off against Ender? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:49:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) In response to Barbara Benesch' post of Nov. 20. Full agreement on Ripley as a powerful female SF character. In Alien, she is the only one with the intelligence, determination, bravery, and assertiveness to survive. She also makes the hard decision that would have saved everyone else - to keep the away team quarantined in the airlock until they figure out what happened to Kane. 'Course Ash overrides her order.... Aliens: > Then, when she was sent on with the marines to Acheron, > she continued to pull her own weight with the rest of the crew, > and refused to be cowed in the face of marine bravado. True, but she actually goes way beyond this. First, she is singlehandedly responsible for rescuing half of the team from their disastrous first trip in. Then, she is primarily responsible for keeping them together and putting together a plan to get them out of there. A civilian, she still virtually takes command. Personally saves Newt, personally kills (?) the Queen, etc. Hicks is a great guy, and tries, but is clearly outclassed. Noone else comes close. > Ripley managed to avoid all of those traps, and while the movie > does have Ripley fighting another female (thus reducing the > end battle to a "cat fight") over a child (appealing to the idea of > "maternal instincts" causing her ruthlessness), she's still a better > feminist role model than most movie women at the time. That bothered me somewhat, particularly the line "Get away from her, you Bitch!", emphasizing this idea. And these are _clearly_ the two strongest characters in the film - Ripley and the Alien Queen. By the way, by strongest characters I mean in strength-of-action, not strength-of-character. > (Also, Vasquez, the *really* gung-ho female marine, was a > pretty good feminist character as well, having established her > place as a member of the squad, and the men treated her > accordingly. Again, I think you're not going quite far enough. I love Vasquez, and she's not just taking a "place as a member of the squad," she's clearly the most hard-core of the bunch. And, as you say: > And for a gung-ho marine, I have to say she didn't come > across as "butch" as they could have made her. Definitely. > Also, let's keep in mind her budding relationship with Corporal Hicks. Hmm. If you mean in terms of retaining her femininity - that is, being strong without somehow becoming a masculine role - I'd say that her interactions with Newt are a stronger measure. Though, the scene where Hicks gives her the wrist locator is touching, primarily in her response. Alien3: I'm sorry you were so disappointed. I certainly like the first two better, and Hicks' and Newt's deaths at the beginning were incredibly painful. Still, I think Alien3 is _very_ important in terms of Ripley's character. I like to consider the trilogy as a sort of classic hero saga, and focus on Ripley's development. Looked at that way, getting through her nightmares, overcoming her debilitating fear to the point where she calmly hurls herself into annihilation, grasping the baby Queen as she does, is an ultimate victory over her Nemesis. For some time I've been concerned with Alien Resurrection as lying outside of the span of that saga. But now, as I write this, I'm thinking that since it'll be a resurrected or cloned Ripley, that that is only appropriate. I'm curious to see how it'll fit in. I'm a big fan of director Jean-Pierre Jeunet from Delicatessen, so I'm stoked. 'Course I'm also a bigtime fan of Ridley Scott and James Cameron. Anyway, I guess I'm rambling way over quota. Us Alien fans seem to have a problem with that. :) Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:54:16 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Tracking what books sell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A few days (posts, weeks, digests?) ago, Vonda brought up the issue of needed information on what was selling and how and where, or something along those lines. I was reminded of this while reading the latest issue of _Newsweek_ which has an article on a service called BookScan--described as a "data-gathering" service which is offering specific and comprehensive information on book sales by assembling data from the BAR CODES. This process started with SoundScan which did it for records (a "revolution")--and now they are trying to apply it to books. It's a fascinating article--I'd say check it out if you see the current (week of November 17-21) issue lying around. Publishers apparently aren't rushing to sign up (it costs), and questions are being raised, but this service may be the first to offer the kind of data tracking that would be useful. The final quote: "small books could actually benefit because publishers would be able to manage them better." Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:04:50 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Independent/feminist women in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have to say I admire Scully on the X-Files and consider her extremely independent (and not totally "wrong" while Mulder's "right")--and have with reluctance seen the first three ALIEN movies (because a friend demands I see the 4th with her). Ripley is pretty admirable, but I don't like horror (and I see those as horror a lot more than science fiction). But if I see them with her, she warns me when the icky stuff is coming up. But I find a lot more appealing and independent women in literary SF...my first and overwhelming love. (Oh, I'm using SF here to mean 'speculative fiction' as an umbrella term for fantasy, science fiction, horror, magical realism, fantastic literature, etc. In this category, "SF" sort of parallels but is bigger than "realism.") This list isn't meant to be exhaustive, but off the top of my head: lots and lots of Mercedes Lackey's characters in all her series (and she's also done an amazing job of bringing in gay and lesbian characters in fantasy of all genres). From bards to warriors to queens who rule on their own to Heralds to others--while some may marry, it's not because it's the only choice! Tanya Huff's Vicki (Victory)--a character in her contemporary vampire novels. (I apologize for being iffy on names--I always forget names.) David Brin's female characters in the _Uplife_ series. Lois McMaster Bujold's Cordelia (Miles' mother, but hey, just because you're independent and feminist doesn't mean you can't get married and even have a kid or two, she says jokingly, although preferring cats herself). As have been mentioned Octavia Butler's characters. Other writers whose works I own and tend to reread for this very reason: Vonda McIntyre (especially love the METAPHASE, TRANSITION trilogy), Elizabeth Lynn (the first two in her major trilogy focus on men but check out _The Northern Girl_), Diane Duane (especially in her own work,but even manages to create a sense of it in her tie-in novels which I buy because I'm a completist but find better than average). There are more, but I have all my SF and mystery stored at home and am working out of my office. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:12:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) In-Reply-To: <34745C7C@msmailpc01.saic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:49 AM 11/20/97 EST, you wrote: >In response to Barbara Benesch' post of Nov. 20. > >Full agreement on Ripley as a powerful female SF character. > >In Alien, she is the only one with the intelligence, determination, >bravery, and assertiveness to survive. She also makes the hard decision >that would have saved everyone else - to keep the away team quarantined >in the airlock until they figure out what happened to Kane. 'Course Ash >overrides her order.... > >Aliens: > >> Then, when she was sent on with the marines to Acheron, >> she continued to pull her own weight with the rest of the crew, >> and refused to be cowed in the face of marine bravado. > >True, but she actually goes way beyond this. First, she is >singlehandedly responsible for rescuing half of the team from their >disastrous first trip in. Then, she is primarily responsible for keeping >them together and putting together a plan to get them out of there. A >civilian, she still virtually takes command. Personally saves Newt, >personally kills (?) the Queen, etc. Hicks is a great guy, and tries, >but is clearly outclassed. Noone else comes close. > >> Ripley managed to avoid all of those traps, and while the movie >> does have Ripley fighting another female (thus reducing the >> end battle to a "cat fight") over a child (appealing to the idea of >> "maternal instincts" causing her ruthlessness), she's still a better >> feminist role model than most movie women at the time. As to the maternal stuff, the question that comes to mind is: while that's certainly there to some extent, would you be bothered by the same line in the same circumstance coming from a man? I see your point about the cat fight, but I can't consider it so because I just took the fight as human vs. alien, not female vs. female. >That bothered me somewhat, particularly the line "Get away from her, you >Bitch!", emphasizing this idea. And these are _clearly_ the two >strongest characters in the film - Ripley and the Alien Queen. By the >way, by strongest characters I mean in strength-of-action, not >strength-of-character. > I dunno. I'd have to go with Ripley and Newt there. > (Also, Vasquez, the *really* gung-ho female marine, was a > pretty good feminist character as well, having established her > place as a member of the squad, and the men treated her > accordingly. >>Again, I think you're not going quite far enough. I love Vasquez, and >>she's not just taking a "place as a member of the squad," she's clearly >>the most hard-core of the bunch. And, as you say: > And for a gung-ho marine, I have to say she didn't come > across as "butch" as they could have made her. Definitely. I think they made her too gratuitously butch. Not that I'd have them soften her, but her whole aura, at least for the first two-thirds of the film, was "Look at me, I'm butch!" whereas Ripley just came across as tough (though not butch) without having to advertise it. This is one of the reasons I like her so much. That bothered me somewhat, particularly the line "Get away from her, you Bitch!", emphasizing this idea. And these are _clearly_ the two strongest characters in the film - Ripley and the Alien Queen. By the way, by strongest characters I mean in strength-of-action, not strength-of-character. -Sean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:18:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) >> [stuff about the "catfight"] > That bothered me somewhat, particularly the line "Get > away from her, you Bitch!", emphasizing this idea. > And these are _clearly_ the two strongest characters > in the film - Ripley and the Alien Queen. By the way, > by strongest characters I mean in strength-of-action, > not strength-of-character. Ah. I meant to say "_But_ these are _clearly_ the two strongest characters..." meaning that while I found it a little disturbing, I don't think that it detracts, since they are both so clearly more powerful/stronger/more capable for their respective sides than any of the males. Rhian Merris rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:18:37 +0000 Reply-To: orlando@telemail.telematic.edu.pe Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Orlando H. Barron Galarza" Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) In-Reply-To: <34737430.59070159@mint.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:20:16 -0500 > From: "Nina M. Osier" > > > Who else? > > > 1) Capt. Janeway? > I must comment that I've been very amused to notice that the recent > articles (that seem to be everywhere, not just in TV Guide!) on "the new > Star Trek women" Aren't they talking about Jery Ryan?????? I guess she's the "new one", not necesarily the "best one"... P.S.: Hello.... I'm new on this list. I'm from Lima - Peru ;') __,--======-.___ __ _________,--'_,--'/_-__-___ `--._ / / ,_ / _ ,_ __/ __ {======>________,._.--------------' (__/ / _/ (_\ / / (_/ (_/ .------- ``--------' - USS VOYAGER NCC-74656 ----------------------. | Murphy's Laws of sex: | | #27: There may be some things better than sex, and some things | | worse than sex. But there is nothing exactly like it. | `--------------------------------+----------------------------------' ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:45:54 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: VAMPIRE PLAY (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fyi - please forward as appropriate - this is a suzy mckee charnas play showing right now in san francisco, y'all. (description below is suzy's) Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- VAMPIRE DREAMS, an intelligent, thrilling, moving drama about a vampire and his therapist, is showing right now at the Bindlestiff Studio in San Francisco, every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday night through December 5. I know the play is intelligent, thrilling, and moving because a) I wrote it, basing it on the award-winning central chapter of my novel THE UNICORN TAPESTRY; b) I saw it produced in San Francisco in 1990 at the Magic Theatre, and it was all of the above and more; and c) current producers/directors at the Bindlestiff tell me their production is wonderful and I believe them (they are smart, talented, and experienced people) so completely that I am flying to San Francisco to see the show this weekend myself. The Bindlestiff Studio is located at 185 Sixth Street in San Francisco, tickets are cheap, and the box office phone # is: 415-974-1167. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:42:04 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@Best.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Thanks for the pointers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to the discussions over the past few months since I subscribed to this list, I was able to put together a list of authors and works I'd like to read. Armed with my list (including some 26 authors) I broke down and went into a bookstore. Unbelievably, in the discount Sci-Fi section, I found hard cover copies of Sheri Tepper's _Shadow's End_, a short story collection of Kate Wilhelm (_And the Angels Sing_) and _The Furies_ by Suzy McKee Charnas. (I wouldn't have recognized the names, save for the discussions here.) I also got _The Four Ways to Forgiveness_ by Ursula K. Le Guin. I am a happy human. (I don't often take books out of the library. . . I tend to forget to take them back on time. Over the years, I have probably paid at least one person's salary for a year!) I read both the Tepper and Le Guin books each in one sitting. I'm trying to limit myself to only one book per day, so today and tomorrow will see me finishing the other two. Eventually, I will be able to discuss them intelligently, after I've digested them. I usually read a book once in hunger, then once for conscious comprehension. Thanks everyone! There is so much out there to read that reading your discussion and comparison of works helped me decide what to look for and where to start. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to live over, I'd make all the same mistakes, only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.best.com/~laorka Resources related to women, disabilities and literature ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:42:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Independent/feminist women in SF In-Reply-To: <199711201704.RAA24846@etsuodt.TAMU-Commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You'd love Laurell Hamilton's Anita Blake, Vampire Hunter. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:17:24 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@Best.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: Independent/feminist women in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Reid wrote: (snip) > Other writers whose works I own > and tend to reread for this very reason: (snip) Diane Duane > (especially in her own work,but even manages to create a sense of it in her > tie-in novels which I buy because I'm a completist but find better than > average). (snip) Most of my books are packed for an impending move. :( I agree about the authors you mentioned which I've read. I found Diane Duane because of the Star Trek novels she wrote that I liked. I like her inclusive definition of "person." _The Wounded Sky_ had a very strong, brilliant and likable female character, the arachnoid Hamalki physicist, Ktlk. In "My Enemy, My Ally," there is the Romulan Commander, Ael, who is a middle aged warrior who held honor higher than social acceptance. Another that comes to mind is the Federation undercover agent on Romulus, Terise, in _The Romulan Way_. A young woman with great courage. In several of her non-trek books, _The Door into Fire_, _The Door into Shadow_ and another, Duane includes a woman named Berend, failed rod mistress (sorcerer) who is a storyteller, and a mercenary (until she finds a cause in which she believes). Berend is a marvelous human. She is an excellent warrior, intelligent, whose psyche was injured by a vicious rape by an "uncle" when she was very young. Still, she is psychologically strong enough to withstand the invasion by hundreds of dragon-minds into hers. Tough, warm lady. My all-time favorite strong female character is K'Ehleyr, the Klingon empire's ambassador to the Federation (also known as Worf's girlfriend in ST: tNG.) She was a combination of warmth, strength, passion and intellect. I was not happy when they killed her off. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to live over, I'd make all the same mistakes, only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.best.com/~laorka Resources related to women, disabilities and literature ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:35:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Le Anne Fossmeyer Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I had a totally different take on the Ripley vs. Queen Alien battle. >> Ripley managed to avoid all of those traps, and while the movie >> does have Ripley fighting another female (thus reducing the >> end battle to a "cat fight") over a child (appealing to the idea of >> "maternal instincts" causing her ruthlessness), she's still a better >> feminist role model than most movie women at the time. I don't think the end battle was written or portrayed as a cat fight: each female feels she must destroy the other to ensure her and her species' continued existence. The story isn't about war as we have fought it for millennia: the fight to control land, fuel, wealth, and so on. The story is about the right to procreate at the expense of other life and the right to destroy other life to ensure the continued existence of one's own. I think for the story to work, to get to us the way it does, it has to touch our most primal, instinctual nature. The plot may be very human-centric in its view of procreation, but, hey, it was made for a human audience! And since when did maternal instincts become not feminist? I was also disappointed with the third movie, but only because I could see so much potential just sitting there, nestled in the dialogue, ignored in favor of MTV-like cinematography. The movie starts out with this great question: if one too many male chromosomes makes a guy too violent, predatory for peaceable society, then is he also incapable of sacrificing for and protecting the society that outcast him? Are we, both male and female, limited by our biology? It could have been cool, but it fell flat. -LeAnne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Vonda, I was researching a school project and came across this ... I don't know if this is what you were looking for. AUTHOR: Fredericks, Casey, 1943- ¤ TITLE: The future of eternity : mythologies of science fiction and ¤ fantasy. ¤ PUBLISHER: Indiana Univ. Press, ¤ PLACE: United States ¤ DATE: 1982 ¤ sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:36:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Geoffrey Sperl Organization: Wayne State University Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Le Anne Fossmeyer wrote: > I don't think the end battle was written or portrayed as a cat fight: > each female feels she must destroy the other to ensure her and her > species' continued existence. This is true of Ripley, yes. But the queen? I don't seem to remember the queen ever stating her (its?) ideas on the subject. My *major* beef with the second and third installments (neither of which I particularly liked (though I'd have to go with Fincher's direction over Cameron's camera mauling any day)) is that there are still no character developments in the xenomorphs (the aliens) in either film. Nothing. If I wanted that I'd just continue to watch _Alien_ (which I do, and it still manages to scare me to death from time to time). Everything there is to be known about aliens the audience learned in the first film and with the idea of the queen. For me, that doesn't make a good story when you have over six hours of film already out and another two hitting the theatres next week So, you'll have to excuse me, but I don't buy the idea that the queen was fighting to save her race, becuase there's nothing pointing to that. _Alien_ was a great horror film, and the other two attempted to recall that greatness with little or no success. Ripley's the same character, with no growth (Cameron attempted it with scenes on Earth and at Gateway, but the studio cut them out and I can't count them as "canon" as long as 20th Century Fox calls the shots), throughout, the aliens don't change. Will this change in _Resurrection_? I'd like to think so, but I'm not holding my breath... Please, all of you _Alien_ fans out there, please keep in mind that this is all IMHO... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:54:44 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It isn't exactly but it looks cool. Thanks much. On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:49:59 -0500, "Stahl, Sheryl" wrote: >Vonda, > >I was researching a school project and came across this ... I don't know >if this is what you were looking for. > > > AUTHOR: Fredericks, Casey, 1943- >¤ TITLE: The future of eternity : mythologies of science fiction >and >¤ fantasy. >¤ PUBLISHER: Indiana Univ. Press, >¤ PLACE: United States >¤ DATE: 1982 >¤ > >sheryl http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:17:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: New Genre Certainly did mean your book. (And that one was on the regular New Books display at the library, not (as yet) tagged as fantasy.) Frances Green http://gayellowpages.com On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:12:23 GMT "Vonda N. McIntyre" writes: >Thank you, if you mean my book. > >Vonda > > > >On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:07:22 -0500, Frances Green > wrote: > >> >> >>PS: I enjoyed The Sun and The Moon enormously. >> > >http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda >The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's >"Best Books of 1997" >http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:01:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Independent Female Characters (was: Re:X-Files) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The addition of Jeri Ryan's character is the "occasion" for most of the articles. However, in the more interesting articles (IMO) Seven of Nine gets about the same attention as Dax and Kira (with attention to previous ST women, such as Crusher, Troi and Uhura). Nina Osier Orlando H. Barron Galarza wrote: > > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:20:16 -0500 > > From: "Nina M. Osier" > > > > > Who else? > > > > 1) Capt. Janeway? > > > I must comment that I've been very amused to notice that the recent > > articles (that seem to be everywhere, not just in TV Guide!) on "the > new > > Star Trek women" > > Aren't they talking about Jery Ryan?????? > > I guess she's the "new one", not necesarily the "best one"... > > P.S.: Hello.... I'm new on this list. > I'm from Lima - Peru > > ;') > > __,--======-.___ __ > _________,--'_,--'/_-__-___ `--._ / / ,_ / _ ,_ __/ __ > {======>________,._.--------------' (__/ / _/ (_\ / / (_/ (_/ > .------- ``--------' - USS VOYAGER NCC-74656 ----------------------. > > | Murphy's Laws of sex: | > > | #27: There may be some things better than sex, and some things | > > | worse than sex. But there is nothing exactly like it. | > > `--------------------------------+----------------------------------' ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:52:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Independent/feminist women in SF Sorry if I've missed a vital point or component of this discussion, but I don't recollect seeing mention of the heroines I can think of created by Melissa Scott (India (Trouble), Jian, Silence, etc) Marion Zimmer Bradley (Jaelle and various of the "Amazons" and many others ) Sheri Tepper (Marjorie Westriding; Jinian; Mavin; Saturday Wilm, many many more) Again, my apologies if I missed a vital defining parameter or postings. Suzette Haden Elgin's Responsible of Brightwater (and her sister Troublesome for that matter) Diane Duane's Berend was mentioned; I'd add Queen Eftigan who was an active mother as well as a warrior, rod mistress and full time ruler. Does anyone know if The Door Into Starlight is anywhere near completion? Frances Green http://gayellowpages.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:20:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) LeAnne wrote: > I don't think the end battle was written or portrayed as a cat fight: > each female feels she must destroy the other to ensure her and her > species' continued existence. The story isn't about war as we have > fought it for millennia: the fight to control land, fuel, wealth, and so > on. The story is about the right to procreate at the expense of other > life and the right to destroy other life to ensure the continued > existence of one's own. I think for the story to work, to get to us the > way it does, it has to touch our most primal, instinctual nature. The > plot may be very human-centric in its view of procreation, but, hey, it > was made for a human audience! Outstanding! I agree. I think that's partly why that one line "Get away from her, you Bitch!" bothered me, since it seemed to imbed the battle in a frame that made it a lot less than it was. > I was also disappointed with the third movie, but only because I could > see so much potential just sitting there, nestled in the dialogue, > ignored in favor of MTV-like cinematography. The movie starts out with > this great question: if one too many male chromosomes makes a guy too > violent, predatory for peaceable society, then is he also incapable of > sacrificing for and protecting the society that outcast him? Are we, > both male and female, limited by our biology? It could have been cool, > but it fell flat. Again, excellent. I think that my appreciation of Alien3 has a lot more to do with my Ripley/Alien fandom than actually thinking that they did that movie right. You're right that it could have been much more. Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:56:46 +0000 Reply-To: susan.courtney@virgin.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Courtney Subject: Re: Barbie News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not SciFi but fact - the reason for Barbie's outrageous proportions is as much technical as sexist. The numbers of folds of fabric for the waistbands of her skirts would have made her mal-proportionately thick around the middle in clothes if her waist had not been corrrespondingly pared. At least that's the way the story is told in the Barbara Benesch wrote: > > Since Barbie's been on the list lately, I figured I'd mention that apparently > they're releasing a version of Barbie with an expanded waist and a > diminished bustline. I think it's Hula Barbie, but I'm not positive. > They're apparently only releasing the one with the "non-traditional" > measurements, but... who knows. > > Barbara Benesch > BJBenesch@aol.com provocative and insightful book on the subject, Forever Barbie by M G Lord. Susan Courtney PS - Belated introduction: I'm 48, born in Chicago, BA English from Smith, living in Kent, about 40mi SE of London for the past 13 years. Journalist and researcher in commercial real estate now turned psychotherapist. Trying to decide whther to leave this list because I spend too much time emptying my inbox of unwanted TV stuff and can't figure out how I'll make the time to read all the new authors I'm hearing about. I haven't figured out how to read the archive - so I may be repeating old material, but, I notice the absence of references to Mary Gentle's Golden Witchbreed and Ancient Light and Colin Greenland's Daybreak on a Different Mountain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:59:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: Independent/feminist women in SF In-Reply-To: <19971120.155302.15118.1.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Frances Green wrote: > Melissa Scott (India (Trouble), Jian, Silence, etc) David Weber (Honor Harrington and many others) Elizabeth Moon (Paksenarrion) Katherine Kurtz (Phillipa Sinclair, Evaine, a couple of others from Adept. Maybe not the swordswomen types, but people you didn't cross without good reason.) Robert Jordan (The Aiel women, whether warriors or not, some of the Aeis Sedai) Susan Schwartz (I'm blanking on specifics but liked the Byzantum to England ones) Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:45:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joseph John Klei Subject: cancel Content-Type: text/plain cancel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:29:27 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: <3483a0b1.46674816@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Vonda, Any idea why academic insts. like UW-Seattle are so reluctant to deal with writing SF? I'm trying to get into an MFA program, but I'd like to not get there under false pretenses, which is what I might feel like I'm doing if I submit something that's not really what I write just to get my foot in the door. -Sean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:18:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > Vonda, > Any idea why academic insts. like UW-Seattle are so reluctant to > deal with writing SF? I'm trying to get into an MFA program, but I'd like > to not get there under false pretenses, which is what I might feel like I'm > doing if I submit something that's not really what I write just to get my > foot in the door. > > -Sean > Sean, You addressed this to Vonda, but having run into the situation myself, I thought I'd respond as well. Partly it's simply prejudice against science fiction. Although there's a large body of science fiction academics out there, and at least three professional organizations devoted to its study, SFRA, IAFA, and the Foundation in Britain, the high powered English departments still look down on popular literature. Even the biggest names in the academic criticisim of science fiction still teach at second or third tier schools. Just about the only exceptions to this are people like Paul Alkon or Mark Rose or J. Hillis Miller who made their names in "more serious" literary studies before publishing in our field. Correspondingly, most of the MFA programs in creative writing at top flight schools are equally snooty. When my then girl friend P.C. Hodgell decided to take off a year to write her first novel, Godstalk, she was roundly criticized by the director of graduate studies and her Ph.D. advisor for wasting her time. Even the fact that the book sold to a hard cover publisher and was nominated for awards didn't change their attitudes. Of course she later got back at the advisor by giving his name to a ruined, cursed city in her second book, Dark of the Moon. If you want to get an MFA or MA in creative writing while doing science fiction, I'd suggest you find out which schools have tenured English professors who are also working sf writers. John Kessel, for example, teaches at one of the University of North Carolina campuses. Jean Lorrah teaches at a university in Kentucky or Tennessee. etc. By the way, on another thread, strong female characters, has anyone mentioned P.C. Hodgell's Jame? She's one of the toughest characters ever to appear in fantasy literature. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:50:45 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Marc Levy wrote: > You addressed this to Vonda, but having run into the situation myself, > I > thought I'd respond as well. Actually, I've been there as well...got the MA this past May, actually. So now I've got a degree, 100 pages of a novel and no job... Listen closely to Mike, and become a member of the SFRA or the IAFA in order to get to know those academics out there who work in SF-friendly atmospheres... > Correspondingly, most of the MFA programs in creative writing at top > flight schools are equally snooty. Very true. I was turned down by Irvine, Houston, and Michigan (and Western Michigan, but that's nothing important), and I suspect it was because I gleefully sent speculative pieces to them. I was accepted by Columbia College in Chicago, and I would have gone if they weren't private and expected your soul in payment for a credit. They may be good ones to look at because they actually have a genre fiction program there. I ended up getting my MA at my undergrad institution because 1) I couldn't afford to move, and 2) I got to know the novelists there very well. There was no resistance to my u/dystopian piece for my thesis...not that I ever really gave anybody a chance to complain (I can be *very* bullheaded). > If you want to get an MFA or MA in creative writing while doing > science > fiction, I'd suggest you find out which schools have tenured > English professors who are also working sf writers. John Kessel, for > example, teaches at one of the University of North Carolina campuses. > > Jean Lorrah teaches at a university in Kentucky or Tennessee. etc. > Yep. Greg Benford is at Irvine (though he's in the physics dept.) and Sam Delany is at Amherst (though he's in Michigan this semester). - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:45:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "J.M. Jamieson" Subject: Re: Vonda N. McIntyre & Barbie Comments: cc: vonda@OZ.NET In-Reply-To: <3483a0b1.46674816@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Two works that have always struck me as having interesting feminist implications (although that was not their intent) and that deal with Vonda N. McIntyre's original request are E.A.S. Butterworth's _The Tree At The Navel Of The Earth_ (Berlin 1970) which deals with the branches and fruit of the Tree of Life as it appears in the art and myths of Greece while tracing with great detail its origin in ancient Asia (contains an original take on Lilith), truly a fascinating work of scholarship. The other is E.A.S. Butterworth's (_Some Traces of the Pre-Olympian World In Greek Literature and Myth_ Berlin 1966) in which Butterworth studies the alterations to the greek language (particularly gender endings) undertaken by Plato and the Academy that rewrote the matrilineal history of Greece and gave it a more politically correct (as Plato saw it) patriarchal tone. On The Barbie side of things a while back on WTN (Women's Television Network) I saw a 1991 documentary by the BBC called "Boobs in Toyland" which is a very witty history of Barbie and fills in the gaps in one's knowledge of Barbie. It also has some amusing "home" animation. It is insighful, indirectly, on the co-founder of Mattel Ruth Handler who named the doll after her daughter Barbie. After leaving the company in 1974 she went on to found _Nearly Me_ which makes plastic breasts for women who have had a mastectomy. A whole life spent dealing with plastic dreams. Minor weird factoids: (1)Apparently Barbie made more money than Madonna in 1990 (the year of the documentary and a very big year for Madonna); (2) Ruth Handler argued for the 'bulge' in Ken's pants as well (which grew over the years). A short story with a Barbie SF twist is "The Barbie Murders" by John Varley who often deals with shifting sexual identities, as he does in this work. jmj at jjamieson@odyssey.on.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:04:33 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Sean Johnston wrote: > >> Vonda, >> Any idea why academic insts. like UW-Seattle are so reluctant to >> deal with writing SF? I'm trying to get into an MFA program, but I'd like >> to not get there under false pretenses, which is what I might feel like I'm >> doing if I submit something that's not really what I write just to get my >> foot in the door. >> >> -Sean >> > >Sean, > >You addressed this to Vonda, but having run into the situation myself, I >thought I'd respond as well. Partly it's simply prejudice against science >fiction. Although there's a large body of science fiction academics out >there, and at least three professional organizations devoted to its >study, SFRA, IAFA, and the Foundation in Britain, the high powered >English departments still look down on popular literature. Even the >biggest names in the academic criticisim of science fiction still teach >at second or third tier schools. Just about the only exceptions to this >are people like Paul Alkon or Mark Rose or J. Hillis Miller who made their >names in "more serious" literary studies before publishing in our field. > >Correspondingly, most of the MFA programs in creative writing at top >flight schools are equally snooty. When my then girl friend P.C. Hodgell >decided to take off a year to write her first novel, Godstalk, she was >roundly criticized by the director of graduate studies and her Ph.D. >advisor for wasting her time. Even the fact that the book sold to a hard >cover publisher and was nominated for awards didn't change their >attitudes. Of course she later got back at the advisor by giving his name >to a ruined, cursed city in her second book, Dark of the Moon. > >If you want to get an MFA or MA in creative writing while doing science >fiction, I'd suggest you find out which schools have tenured >English professors who are also working sf writers. John Kessel, for >example, teaches at one of the University of North Carolina campuses. >Jean Lorrah teaches at a university in Kentucky or Tennessee. etc. > >By the way, on another thread, strong female characters, has anyone >mentioned P.C. Hodgell's Jame? She's one of the toughest characters ever to >appear in fantasy literature. > >Mike Levy Mike, Thanks. That's helpful and I've been considering UNCarol. -Sean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 03:16:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) In a message dated 97-11-20 22:13:56 EST, Le Anne Fossmeyer wrote: > I had a totally different take on the Ripley vs. Queen Alien battle. > > >> Ripley managed to avoid all of those traps, and while the movie > >> does have Ripley fighting another female (thus reducing the > >> end battle to a "cat fight") over a child (appealing to the idea of > >> "maternal instincts" causing her ruthlessness), she's still a better > >> feminist role model than most movie women at the time. > > I don't think the end battle was written or portrayed as a cat fight: > each female feels she must destroy the other to ensure her and her > species' continued existence. The story isn't about war as we have > fought it for millennia: the fight to control land, fuel, wealth, and so > on. The story is about the right to procreate at the expense of other > life and the right to destroy other life to ensure the continued > existence of one's own. I think for the story to work, to get to us the > way it does, it has to touch our most primal, instinctual nature. The > plot may be very human-centric in its view of procreation, but, hey, it > was made for a human audience! I think you've got a good point, but the "Get away from her, you bitch" line really made it cat fight-y to me and also reinforced the maternal instincts thing (see below). > And since when did maternal instincts become not feminist? Sorry, I didn't state myself well. Not that they aren't feminist, but that like a lot of movies at the time, maternal instincts were the only reason women had to be strong. My criticism is not for giving Ripley "maternal instincts", since I thought it was a really interesting development of the character, but of the movie industry at the time, which made it so the only reason the movie could get made was to "excuse" Ripley's strength and determination by labeling it "maternal instincts". > I was also disappointed with the third movie, but only because I could > see so much potential just sitting there, nestled in the dialogue, > ignored in favor of MTV-like cinematography. The movie starts out with > this great question: if one too many male chromosomes makes a guy too > violent, predatory for peaceable society, then is he also incapable of > sacrificing for and protecting the society that outcast him? Are we, > both male and female, limited by our biology? It could have been cool, > but it fell flat. I too thought the "chromosome question" should have merited some more exploration, and I also was upset with the cinematography (did I spell that right?). I think a lot of my problems with the third movie (if I absolutely *have* to be honest ;) stem from how much I really enjoyed "Aliens". Killing Newt really ticked me off, and then having Ripley sleep with that doctor (when there didn't look to be much chemistry between them to me) after they killed Hicks ticked me off some more (okay, okay, I really like Michael Biehn, too, I admit). But I agree, the movie could have been much better, and it just wasn't. On a brighter note, I just watched "The Making of Alien Resurrection" on Sci-Fi Channel and it looks really really good. I have really high hopes for this one, and from the looks of things, I'm not going to be disappointed. Yay ;) Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 03:44:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: Ripley In a message dated 97-11-20 12:06:31 EST, Rhian Merris wrote: > In response to Barbara Benesch' post of Nov. 20. > > Full agreement on Ripley as a powerful female SF character. > Anyway, I guess I'm rambling way over quota. Us Alien fans seem to have > a problem with that. :) > > Rhian > rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com Rhian - I'm really looking forward to your comments once you've seen Resurrection. I probably would have gone way over "rambling quota" myself if it hadn't been really late and I hadn't needed to get up early for work the next day. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 03:46:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: Aliens trailer In a message dated 97-11-20 09:25:05 EST, Pat Mathews wrote: > How many Orson Scott Card fans have seen the trailers for Ailen > Resurrection? Doesn't it remind you of XENOCIDE? With Ripley facing off > against Ender? > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu I'm an Orson Scott Card fan and I've seen the trailers (Oh, I've *seen* the trailers!), but I'm not making a connection to XENOCIDE. Of course, I haven't read it in forever, so now I'll have to dig it out and re-read it. Which part of the trailer, exactly? And which part of XENOCIDE? Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 03:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley In a message dated 97-11-20 03:54:09 EST, Geoffrey Sperl wrote: > Devil's advocate alert! ****Please,**** don't think any of this is my > personal opinion... > > And what of the arguments that Ripley is the same "last girl" seen in > slasher films, from _Texas Chainsaw Massacre_ to _Halloween_ to _A > Nightmare on Elm Street_? If the argument of the last girl is that the > girl is becoming the masculine, and turning the beast/monster/horror > into the feminine, where does that leave Ripley? Is she merely Rambo > with more estrogen? > > - Geoffrey > -- > "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect Geoffrey, I promise not to take it personally if you promise to tell me of this "last girl" thing. I don't really watch slasher movies (since I usually spent the summer out in the backwoods with a bunch of other girls with nothing more than CB radios to connect us, I figured giving my overactive imagination _more_ material to work with was a bad idea), so I think I've got an idea of what you're trying to say, if you could explain it out a bit more I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:04:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Re: Independent/feminist women in SF On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Jill Gillham wrote: > Elizabeth Moon (Paksenarrion) Paksenarrion is an interesting case. I agree with placing her in this category, but it's a little more complicated, or subtle, or something. Most of the strong characters in the Deed are male, the gods tend to be male - in fact, the only goddess I can recall at the moment was very evil. The Duke, who is one of the main characters looked-up-to in the book is male, and he is almost a father-figure to Paksenarrion, at the same time that he is a potential lover. Anyway, the dominant/superior/patriarchal relationships are of course subverted by Paksenarrion's completely surpassing them. In a way, she ends up being all the more powerful character for that, but the long stretches through which she doesn't believe in herself, and all the powerful folks being male just makes the feminist reading a little more complex. So, that's mho. Anyone care to disagree? I think this is actually an excellent book to talk about this issue. (And just an absolutely tremendous fantasy work, by the way.) Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:09:18 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have my book on me...I'll have to look for it...it's an essay, I believe by Barbara Creed (Eric, help!), where she examines slasher flicks and notice it's *always* the case of the last or final girl. Ripley is the only one who keeps her cool while the Nostromo is going to hell in a handbasket around her, Nancy in _A Nightmare on Elm Street_ is the only one who takes the threat of Freddy seriously, Jamie Lee Curtis's character (blanking on name - Chris, I think) in _Halloween_ is the only one able to take on Michael Myers. Creed (or whoever the essay author is) makes the argument that the only way these ladies become the "final girl" is by stripping themselves of femininity and building up their masculinity. With that, and a subsequent feminizing of the alien, Freddy, Michael, et. al., the women are seen as merely taking up the standard of masculinity and maleness... Basically. :) - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:11:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply To Mike Levy, > When my then girl friend P.C. Hodgell decided to take > off a year to write her first novel, Godstalk, she was roundly > criticized by the director of graduate studies and her Ph.D. > advisor for wasting her time. Even the fact that the book sold > to a hard cover publisher and was nominated for awards > didn't change their attitudes. Of course she later got back at > the advisor by giving his name to a ruined, cursed city in her > second book, Dark of the Moon. ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod. You _went out_ with P.C. Hodgell? I absolutely _love_ Godstalk!!!! > By the way, on another thread, strong female characters, > has anyone mentioned P.C. Hodgell's Jame? She's one of > the toughest characters ever to appear in fantasy literature. Yes, yes, yes! Jamethiel is a fantastic character! Ah, I'm blathering! I can't help myself. So, did she ever write a sequel to Godstalk, or anything more about Jamethiel Dreamweaver? All of the suggestions of Jame actually being Jamethiel Dreamweaver got me totally stoked to read more, but I could never find anything more on the subject. Also, do you know how I could write to her? I guess I should just write via a publisher, but my copy of Godstalk is an old paperback, and I don't know if she still has any connection with the publisher. Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:34:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Re: P.C. Hodgell > ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod. I'm calmer now. Really, I am. Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:28:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply This is something that has always puzzled me... why "popular" literary forms are not considered worthy of study by some academics. It seems that science fiction, mystery, etc. could be interesting to study partly because they are "popular" forms, and can say a lot about current culture. Of course, I'm a scientist who hasn't been in an English class for over five years :) Anybody who knows about these things: what do you think? Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:53:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SF is not popular (though it may be culture). Sci-fi might be popular, but SF isn't. SF is damned hard to read, and that's why it's not popular. Most academics think SF = sci fi, and are therefore suffering from grievous misconceptions. Additionally, most academics don't have the bendy minds necessary to read SF. Ergo, most academics poohpooh SF. Heather, academic of bended mind. =) Btw--popular culture *is* an academic field, now. SF is still not in it, you'll notice, except peripherally through a knee-jerk association with "technology"... At 09:28 AM 11/21/97 -0700, you wrote: > This is something that has always puzzled me... why "popular" >literary forms are not considered worthy of study by some >academics. It seems that science fiction, mystery, etc. could >be interesting to study partly because they are "popular" forms, >and can say a lot about current culture. > > Of course, I'm a scientist who hasn't been in an English class >for over five years :) Anybody who knows about these things: what >do you think? > >Bonnie > > "Black Holes are where God divided by zero" hmaclean@kent.edu http://www.personal.kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:13:41 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply Comments: To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" In-Reply-To: <34751321.1C948DF2@geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > Very true. I was turned down by Irvine, Houston, and Michigan (and > Western Michigan, but that's nothing important), and I suspect it was > because I gleefully sent speculative pieces to them. I was accepted by > Columbia College in Chicago, and I would have gone if they weren't > private and expected your soul in payment for a credit. They may be > good ones to look at because they actually have a genre fiction program > there. I ended up getting my MA at my undergrad institution because 1) > I couldn't afford to move, and 2) I got to know the novelists there very > well. There was no resistance to my u/dystopian piece for my > thesis...not that I ever really gave anybody a chance to complain (I can > be *very* bullheaded). > > > - Geoffrey > Columbia College in Chicago might be an excellent choice. Phyllis Eisenstein, a very good fantasy writer, teaches there. She recently published a collection of short stories by her Columbia College students which actually got picked up by Borders and is presumably findable around the U.S. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:22:44 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: creative writing and sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A definite second/third to the earlier postings: I have an MA in creative writing, and have horrible memories of being attacked viciously in my creative writing classes when I turned in SF. Part of it was the problem of literature snootiness (SF was not taught as literature), but there was another big problem which was that since these people NEVER read SF, they had no idea how to respond. I always wanted to go to one of the CLARION workshops which focus entirely on writing SF/F, but never could. You might look into some of those. (I've read a lot of SF/F bios about people who write their first novel while going to graduate school, so it can be done even if the program is not behind you.) Part of the institutional problem is that there are so many writers who cannot earn a living through writing and so few creative writing positions (one way to make a living) that the programs, which really parallel some of the literary snootiness, go for the big published names in "mainstream" literature. (I doubt they'd think writing "trash" was really writing.) My department here is a bit different: several of our creative writing/MA and Ed.D. students have written mysteries and SF/F. I just read the first completed draft of a "cyberpunk/vampire" novel for a doctoral dissertation. Granted, the student also has to write a theoretical and a pedagogical chapter, but he got no problems writing what he wanted. My official title though is "creative writing and critical theory" (if you are a literature person, you might be able to appreciate the incredible and wonderful schizophrenia of that title). We don't have a program as such (I'm the only on, just an "emphasis" so we have no major investment in the "standards of literature." I'd also say be careful when you are looking at programs: sad to say some of the biggest names in the creative writing programs only teach a little bit. And the presence of an SF person in Another Department might not have any impact on your work in a creative writing or literature program. And, speaking as someone who's been in and out of graduate programs and community writing workshops, there's a good deal to be said for what I tell my creative writing undergraduate students: if you really want to write and publish, get the heck out of the university. Some of the insiders at the institutions themselves are questioning the value of "creative writing programs." Apparently they were nice cash cows for schools during the bust of the seventies. I doubt there's been any studies done on this, but I wonder just how many published writers actually TOOK any creative writing classes or graduated in the "field."....... On a slightly related topic, I found out when applying for Ph.D. programs in literature that my creative background was a big problem for some. Apparently the critics who study the creative work don't really think the people who are alive and writing can be trusted to learn the difficult art of "criticism".... Robin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:30:05 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: <9711211628.AA13132@madrone.ece.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Bonnie Gray wrote: > This is something that has always puzzled me... why "popular" > literary forms are not considered worthy of study by some > academics. It seems that science fiction, mystery, etc. could > be interesting to study partly because they are "popular" forms, > and can say a lot about current culture. > > Of course, I'm a scientist who hasn't been in an English class > for over five years :) Anybody who knows about these things: what > do you think? > > Bonnie > Why, because they're popular, of course, and therefore mediocre, pretty much by definition. If you're a snooty academic you aren't going to demean yourself by devoting your time to things that just anyone might enjoy. You're much more likely to spend time on post-structuralist, deconstructive hermenutics, a topic only the elite can comprehend. Fortunately not all academics are snooty. Witness those on this list. Mike Levy (who gets grouchy when his colleagues tease him about teaching children's literature as well) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Jean Lorrah teaches at a university in Kentucky or Tennessee. etc. She's at Murray State in western Kentucky. Murray's primarily an undergrad school, but you never know where grad offerings turn up. (Still miffed at realizing that I missed a chance to take an English class from her last spring) Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:50:13 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: New Genre In-Reply-To: <19971120.153332.15118.0.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for letting me know. The genre-straddling aspects of The Moon and the Sun are really hitting it, and me, in the chops. Best, Vonda On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:17:33 -0500, Frances Green wrote: >Certainly did mean your book. (And that one was on the regular New Books >display at the library, not (as yet) tagged as fantasy.) > >Frances Green >http://gayellowpages.com > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:51:19 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A friend of mine is a tenure-tracked assistant professor with a PhD from Berkeley, a book of academic criticism, and three published novels, and she _still_ gets hassled by her department about wasting her time writing that sci fi stuff. On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:18:23 -0600, Michael Marc Levy wrote: >... Partly it's simply prejudice against science >fiction. Although there's a large body of science fiction academics out >there, and at least three professional organizations devoted to its >study, SFRA, IAFA, and the Foundation in Britain, the high powered >English departments still look down on popular literature. ... http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:51:04 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Sean, I'm not an academic -- I don't even have a degree in English or anything close. Don't teach except on the rare occasion when I'm bullied into doing a workshop. I don't know the answer to your question. But I'm sure tons of folks on this list would be able to help clue the both of us in. Is your prospective MFA for writing credentials or teaching credentials? (I have been told by a friend who's made her living writing for 20 years that she wasn't even considered for a teaching position she applied for, because she didn't have an MFA. This makes me wonder what the people doing the hiring are using for brains, but it does explain to me why people who want to teach want an MFA in creative writing.) The people I know who have gotten into MFA programs with non-sf in order to write sf have spent the next several years generally being shat upon and insulted, so I think your impression that this is a bad strategy is an accurate one. Best, Vonda On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:29:27 -0600, Sean Johnston wrote: >Vonda, > Any idea why academic insts. like UW-Seattle are so reluctant to >deal with writing SF? I'm trying to get into an MFA program, but I'd like >to not get there under false pretenses, which is what I might feel like I'm >doing if I submit something that's not really what I write just to get my >foot in the door. > http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's "Best Books of 1997" http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:16:56 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Aliens trailer In-Reply-To: <971121034626_1482790325@mrin47> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Barbara Benesch wrote: > > > How many Orson Scott Card fans have seen the trailers for Ailen > > Resurrection? Doesn't it remind you of XENOCIDE? With Ripley facing off > > against Ender? > > > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > > mathews@unm.edu > > I'm an Orson Scott Card fan and I've seen the trailers (Oh, I've *seen* the > trailers!), but I'm not making a connection to XENOCIDE. Of course, I > haven't read it in forever, so now I'll have to dig it out and re-read it. > Which part of the trailer, exactly? And which part of XENOCIDE? The situation where the man wants to revive the bug race by breeding a queen and Ripley wants them all dead - and the queen especially. I found myself wondering if the scriptwriter had *read* Card!> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:29:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I don't have any idea how good this program is - but University of Kansas seems very encouraging for writing scifi http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~sfcenter/ sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:36:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rhian Merris Subject: Re: New Genre Vonda wrote: > The genre-straddling aspects of The Moon and the > Sun are really hitting it, and me, in the chops. That sucks. I've often enjoyed cross-over or genre-straddling books myself. (Especially where there's a sci-fi or fantasy element). And when I first heard people talking about _The Moon and the Sun_ on this list, I was particularly excited about it for that very reason. Haven't read it yet, but I certainly will as soon as I find it. (Only been to one bookstore recently, and it was somewhat lame, even if the person at the check-out had met Octavia Butler.) Rhian ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:54:45 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Honor Wallace Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971121120501.275fefb0@pop.kent.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="Default"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > SF is not popular (though it may be culture). Sci-fi might be popular, but > SF isn't. Stupid question time. Heather (or anybody else), would you mind explaining the SF/Sci-fi distinction to yes, an academic? Thanks, Honor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Especially since the "popular" writers looked down on in their own lifetimes may become the classic novelists whose works our grandchildren must study! Dickens, anyone? Nina Osier Bonnie Gray wrote: > This is something that has always puzzled me... why "popular" > literary forms are not considered worthy of study by some > academics. It seems that science fiction, mystery, etc. could > be interesting to study partly because they are "popular" forms, > and can say a lot about current culture. > > Of course, I'm a scientist who hasn't been in an English class > for over five years :) Anybody who knows about these things: what > do you think? > > Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:51:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jill Gillham Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: <349ae5f8.76997274@mail.oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Vonda N. McIntyre wrote: > Is your prospective MFA for writing credentials or > teaching credentials? (I have been told by a > friend who's made her living writing for 20 years > that she wasn't even considered for a teaching > position she applied for, because she didn't have > an MFA. This makes me wonder what the people doing > the hiring are using for brains, but it does > explain to me why people who want to teach want an > MFA in creative writing.) Requiring the "certificate" is an easy way for search committees to make the first cut in the selection process. Especially in the Humanities right now, and in some of the social sciences, the supply of people who want to teach at the university level far, far exceeds the number of positions available. My father-in-law teaches religion at a small liberal arts school in Michigan. The last time they had a position opening, they had about 1,000 aplicants for that job. There's also a certain level of culling by school that goes on in some places. When I was in grad school at the University of Michigan, I remember a discussion with an Economics prof there who said that you could be pretty much the second coming of Adam Smith, but unless you'd gotten your PhD. at Harvard or U. of Chicago, or MIT you'd never make it out of the "slush pile" because for good or bad, it was the first thing they did to pare down the applicant pool by several hundred when they had an opening. Of the last 5-6 years worth of Visual Art MFAs at Michigan State University, my husband's the only one who has gotten a tenure track job, and one other woman has gotten a year to year contract at the University level. From who we've kept in touch with, the number one career choice seems to be long distance telephone sales. On the other hand, if you're a nursing professor ( or engineering), there are places where you can pretty much write your own contract. Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2 \|/ \|/ D=|[[] "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide, =0: + =0: = \O/ Until I find the Holy Grail." /|\ /|\ |*| -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson [Go WINGS!] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:35:00 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: Lt. Ripley (was Independent Female Characters) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara Benesch wrote: > ...snip... > I was very disappointed in the third movie for a number of reasons. Killing > Newt and Hicks before the beginning credits were over was a good indicator > for me that I'd spent my money unwisely. Then, the final indignity: Ripley > has sex for the first time in who *knows* how long, and then dies soon after. > I couldn't sit still for much of the third aliens movie, so I didn't know about this last part. After seeing Starship Troopers I told the group who had seen it with me (mostly guys) about the action movie rule that says female characters who have sex must die. As I expected they hadn't heard about that rule before. And here's another example. I'll probably go see alien resurrection just out of love (OK, lust) for ripley. I don't promise to sit through all of it, though. -- Jennifer Krauel Director of Product Marketing jkrauel@actioneer.com 415.536.0715 fax 415.882.4372 http://www.actioneer.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ++ Actioneering: the art and science of getting it done ++ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:59:10 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:54 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote: >> SF is not popular (though it may be culture). Sci-fi might be popular, but >> SF isn't. > >Stupid question time. Heather (or anybody else), would you mind explaining >the SF/Sci-fi distinction to yes, an academic? > >Thanks, >Honor > > Oh, boy, did you open a can of worms. Briefly, SF is "the good stuff" from Heinlein to Delany; sci-fi is "The tomato that ate Detroit" and other oddball but basically science-free attempts at SF. Now let's see what kind of response THIS definition receives! Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Independent/feminist women in SF If humor and crones are allowed, Granny Weatherwax, of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, is a strong contender! And so is that "disgustin' old baggage" Nanny Ogg. And Agnes Nitt, the triad's replacement for Magrat, developed nicely in "Maskerade". I really enjoyed Susan Sto-Helit's performance in "Hogfather", which also has delectable continuing development of Hex, the computer at Unseen University. (I wonder what ever happened to Eskarina from "Equal Rites". If Granny is still going strong, Esk should be around somewhere.) I did consider Constable Angua, but I think she's still too much under Carrot's charismatic thumb. Have to see how she goes. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:00:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Re: SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Bonnie Gray To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Friday, November 21, 1997 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] SF and academia: was Re: Mythology book query -Reply > This is something that has always puzzled me... why "popular" >literary forms are not considered worthy of study by some >academics. It seems that science fiction, mystery, etc. could >be interesting to study partly because they are "popular" forms, >and can say a lot about current culture. > > Of course, I'm a scientist who hasn't been in an English class >for over five years :) Anybody who knows about these things: what >do you think? > >Bonnie > I may not be the best person to respond, seeing as I am a first year English major (undergrad), however, I will give it a shot. In the academic world, I have run into two types of professors. The first is purely academic. Anything after T.S. Eliot is not English Literature. (even he is pushing it.) They refuse to believe that modern writers can create anything of value. they subscribe to the theory that "If something is any good, it's already been written." The other type, views current literature, even (oh my gosh) Popular Literature, as worthy of study. I have heard of classes on Agatha Christie, Steven King, and other more current writers. (I much prefer this type of Proff.) The first group is usually higher up on the "totem pole" than the second, and the second is fearful of the first. The entire situation creates on big mess. I do not have evidence to support this, and lots of people may disagree, but that is what I have seen in my admittedly limited experience. I wish it were not this way, but... "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." Thanx for letting me ramble like this. Becca Dreams Are Born In The Heart And Mind, And Only There Can They Ever Die remember Narnia, wonderland, MiddleEarth, and Never Never Land, and you shall truly never die. Peace Be With Thee and Blessed Be ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:30:07 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I don't have any idea how good this program is - but University of >Kansas seems very encouraging for writing scifi > >http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~sfcenter/ > > sheryl I was actually looking at their website today. Turns out they have an opening for an Assoc. Prof. of African American Literature, which I taught while getting a Master's in African-American Studies (I want the MFA, in addition to the MA I already have, b/c there's little theory involved, as there would be in a PhD and b/c it's considered the terminal degree in the field, so I could get a job). -Sean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:30:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> SF is not popular (though it may be culture). Sci-fi might be popular, but >> SF isn't. > >Stupid question time. Heather (or anybody else), would you mind explaining >the SF/Sci-fi distinction to yes, an academic? > >Thanks, >Honor Capsule definition: Sci-fi is like _Independence Day_ or _Men in Black_. Science fiction is like _Blade Runner_, _Contact_, or _2001: A Space Odyssey_. SF is more serious than Sci-Fi, deeper, more intelligent generally, whereas Sci-Fi, to my knowledge, has a lot to do with lasers, bug-eyes monsters trying to take over the world, that sort of thing. Both are entertaining, but Sci-Fi tends to unfairly and undeservedly overshadow SF. It's not a stupid question, Honor. It's an important one and an important distinction to make. -Sean "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:30:00 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Mythology book query -Reply In-Reply-To: <349ae5f8.76997274@mail.oz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Vonda, Yeah, I'd like an MFA in order to teach. You know, make a fair living doing something I like a lot--teaching. I like it as much as writing SF when I get to talk about SF, writing SF, stuff like that. Brooks Landon, one of this year's Philip K. Dick Award judges, advises me that it'd be better to get into Clarion. That'll carry a lot more weight w/the community (SF) that I seem to love than an MFA. -Sean >Hi Sean, > >I'm not an academic -- I don't even have a degree >in English or anything close. Don't teach except >on the rare occasion when I'm bullied into doing a >workshop. I don't know the answer to your >question. But I'm sure tons of folks on this list >would be able to help clue the both of us in. > >Is your prospective MFA for writing credentials or >teaching credentials? (I have been told by a >friend who's made her living writing for 20 years >that she wasn't even considered for a teaching >position she applied for, because she didn't have >an MFA. This makes me wonder what the people doing >the hiring are using for brains, but it does >explain to me why people who want to teach want an >MFA in creative writing.) > >The people I know who have gotten into MFA >programs with non-sf in order to write sf have >spent the next several years generally being shat >upon and insulted, so I think your impression that >this is a bad strategy is an accurate one. > >Best, > >Vonda > >On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:29:27 -0600, Sean Johnston > wrote: > >>Vonda, >> Any idea why academic insts. like UW-Seattle are so reluctant to >>deal with writing SF? I'm trying to get into an MFA program, but I'd like >>to not get there under false pretenses, which is what I might feel like I'm >>doing if I submit something that's not really what I write just to get my >>foot in the door. >> > > > > >http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda >The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's >"Best Books of 1997" >http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946 "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."--Charles H. Houston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity (me too) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:59 PM 11/21/97 -0600, you wrote: >At 14:54 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote: >>> SF is not popular (though it may be culture). Sci-fi might be popular, but >>> SF isn't. >> >>Stupid question time. Heather (or anybody else), would you mind explaining >>the SF/Sci-fi distinction to yes, an academic? >> >>Thanks, >>Honor >> >> >Oh, boy, did you open a can of worms. Briefly, SF is "the good stuff" >from Heinlein to Delany; sci-fi is "The tomato that ate Detroit" and >other oddball but basically science-free attempts at SF. Now let's >see what kind of response THIS definition receives! > >Martha Bartter >Truman State University > > What she said. *grins* Heather =) (erm, though, we can probably extend it beyond Delaney. ;) And in my opinion, it has little or nothing to do with the presence or not of "science." French SF, for example, often concentrates more on socioeconomic extrapolations that are hugely literary but focus little on hard science. To me, SF is literary -- whether it be in film, such as 2001, or in print. I (me, my opinion) don't consider something that is quite believable from a scientific point of view but that lacks literary shape any better or worse sci-fi than "The Tomato That Ate Detroit" (shouldn't that be, *who* ate Detroit? *giggles*).) "Black Holes are where God divided by zero" hmaclean@kent.edu http://www.personal.kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:35:16 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Honor Wallace Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity (me too) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971121194713.404f297e@pop.kent.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="Default"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks to everyone for the explanations about the SF/sci-fi difference. My two cents, as someone who is very interested in working with science fiction (in the creatively critical, rather than creatively productive sense (wincing grin)): I've always wondered if it weren't the academy itself that perpetuated, or at least pushed, the distinction between good, literary science fiction and the arguably more pulpy brand. My university's library, which is decidedly *not* geared toward the study of genre fiction, stocks a significant number of Delaney works (fictional and non) but has only one Nebula Awards collection (and that from '86, I believe). I don't at all mean to imply that the Nebula awards are not literary. It's just that, if I were forced to rely solely on the resources of my own library, I would find a canonized groups of folks but have _very_ little idea of what fans are discovering. In other words, I'm "allowed" to write on a certain number of authors who have made it into the repected journals. Moreover, I suspect that the reason a number of "literary" (gosh, I'm using a lot of quotes) authors--Delaney, Russ, Piercy, LeGuin, Wittig--are attractive to the academy not because of any literary talents they demonstrate within or without the science fiction tradition, but because they so readily yield to the most trendy of critical inquiries. Delaney's Lacan-fest in the Neveryon series is I think the most deliberate example of this, but there are others. None of this I consider a bad thing--I've enjoyed reading all of these authors--but I sometimes experience mild paranoia that the academy is attempting to co-opt genre fiction, without conceding it its own set of strengths. Whew. Sorry so long. Any takers? Honor ---------- > At 05:59 PM 11/21/97 -0600, you wrote: > >At 14:54 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>> SF is not popular (though it may be culture). Sci-fi might be popular, > but > >>> SF isn't. > >> > >>Stupid question time. Heather (or anybody else), would you mind explaining > >>the SF/Sci-fi distinction to yes, an academic? > >> > >>Thanks, > >>Honor > >> > >> > >Oh, boy, did you open a can of worms. Briefly, SF is "the good stuff" > >from Heinlein to Delany; sci-fi is "The tomato that ate Detroit" and > >other oddball but basically science-free attempts at SF. Now let's > >see what kind of response THIS definition receives! > > > >Martha Bartter > >Truman State University > > > > > What she said. > > *grins* > > Heather > =) > (erm, though, we can probably extend it beyond Delaney. ;) And in my > opinion, it has little or nothing to do with the presence or not of > "science." French SF, for example, often concentrates more on socioeconomic > extrapolations that are hugely literary but focus little on hard science. > To me, SF is literary -- whether it be in film, such as 2001, or in print. > I (me, my opinion) don't consider something that is quite believable from a > scientific point of view but that lacks literary shape any better or worse > sci-fi than "The Tomato That Ate Detroit" (shouldn't that be, *who* ate > Detroit? *giggles*).) > "Black Holes are where God divided by zero" > > hmaclean@kent.edu > http://www.personal.kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:57:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Computer troubles Comments: To: Phil Mathews , Carol Mathews , Sarah at Home , Hildy Burness , BOB SHAW , Jean Lamb , Marietta Sue Dennis , lois@unm.edu, Georgette Heyer Discussion List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My Pine email is locking up at work and it's getting worse and worse. The entire building is affected. This started when they started upgrading the network. So I'll be picking up my email at home emostly. If it's urgent, phone me at (505)268-4892 Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity (me too) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, back when I was still only a fan, back when I still hated school, I thought Delany was Ghod. I didn't know any other SF fans. I kept on trying to tell everybody how cool he was, but nobody believed me. And then I read V, by Pynchon, when I started undergrad, and I was like, oh, cool, SF. I didn't know there were postmodern distinctions back then. I hadn't even heard of "criticism" yet. And popular culture wasn't yet popular. =) So--this may only indicate that I had a predisposition for academia, and that's it. But. There are many fine writers out there who spin wonderful tales and whom I read greedily. They don't have the particular linguistic twists that I relish in my academic work, but they tickle all my fan buttons. And I call them SF too. And then there's junk that makes my eyes glaze over after one paragraph, when I realize I've just wasted $5 (if I'm lucky). Academia has not made SF SF. SF writers themselves started making these distinctions a long time ago, from what it seems to me in all the intros I've read to various and sundry anthologies, where editors/peers pick the cream of the crop. I like play with language. Does that make what I like to read literary? I know most of the stuff I read is neither popular, nor canon. *shrug* Who knows. This just happens to be my kink. Your kink is ok too. =) Heather =) (who still maintains that Wittig's _Les guerilleres_ is less SF (though arguably more literary) than Christiane Rochefort's _Une rose pour Morrison_, but nobody ever seems to have heard of the latter) hmaclean@kent.edu http://www.personal.kent.edu/~hmaclean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: SF / Sci-Fi In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971121221913.404f3d28@pop.kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well academics and "insiders" might give value judgemnets to SF vs Sci-Fi, but this is my impression: 1) SF (speculative fiction) is what you call it when you don't want to freak out the science-phobic. (it is the PC, non-inflammatory, benign form) Actually it seems almost like a secret code-word. It doesn't ring the bells of the anti-Sci-Fi bigots, but WE all know what it really means. 2) Sci-Fi (Science Fiction) is a sub-category of SF (Speculative Fiction). It relies heavily on technology and/or hard science, and is generally on the future. (though this is also hard vs. soft Sci-Fi) I don't see why the word science isn't as appropriate for other SF as it is for Sci-Fi, given that it's probably social sience or something like that (since science is simply the logical analysis of our world (in all it's aspects) and SF is the creative writing of hypothetical worlds (in a broad sense) that hang together scientifically (alternate rules of science are acceptable here)). So, To me, someone saying SF or speculative fiction, or Sci-Fi, or Science Fiction gnerally will give me more of an impression of the person's mood and attitude than the merits of the book they are talking about. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:46:58 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SF and academia and popularity (me too) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Honor Wallace wrote: > Thanks to everyone for the explanations about the SF/sci-fi difference. > My two cents, as someone who is very interested in working > with science fiction (in the creatively critical, rather than > creatively productive sense (wincing grin)): I've always wondered if it weren't the > academy itself that perpetuated, or at least pushed, the distinction between good, > literary science fiction and the arguably more pulpy brand. My university's library, > which is decidedly *not* geared toward the study of genre fiction, stocks a > significant number of Delaney works (fictional and non) but has only one Nebula > Awards collection (and that from '86, I believe). I don't at all mean to imply that the > Nebula awards are not literary. It's just that, if I were forced to rely solely on the > resources of my own library, I would find a canonized groups of folks but have > _very_ little idea of what fans are discovering. In other words, I'm "allowed" to > write on a certain number of authors who have made it into the repected journals. > > Moreover, I suspect that the reason a number of "literary" (gosh, I'm using a lot > of quotes) authors--Delaney, Russ, Piercy, LeGuin, Wittig--are attractive to the academy > not because of any literary talents they demonstrate within or without the science > fiction tradition, but because they so readily yield to the most trendy of critical > inquiries. Delaney's Lacan-fest in the Neveryon series is I think the most deliberate > example of this, but there are others. None of this I consider a bad thing--I've enjoyed > reading all of these authors--but I sometimes experience mild paranoia that the > academy is attempting to co-opt genre fiction, without conceding it its own set of strengths. > > Whew. Sorry so long. Any takers? > > Honor This is definitely true, although I might, at least in part, drop the negatively connotative "trendy" from your statement. Certain writers have been canonized--the big four from the golden age (Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Bradbury), the prime feminists (Le Guin, Russ, to a lesser extent Charnas, Wittig, Piercy) the post-modernist precursors (Dick, Delany), the prime cyberpunks (Gibson, Sterling), the multicultural giants (Delany again and Butler) a few others (Herbert, Miller, Tolkien of course), and these writers get an enormous amount of attention. PLEASE NOTE BEFORE FLAMING--I'm not saying that these writers don't deserve an enormous amount of attention--but, sadly, they tend to receive attention to the exclusion of other writers who are as, or nearly as worthy. To some extent they represent the writers who, as you suggested, happen to fit the latest in scholarly trends (I prefer that phrase to trendy scholarship :). To some extent they represent writers who are more obviously "literary" than most of their peers. To some extent it's simply a matter of popularity. Academics in science fiction, rather than chasing what's trendy, tend to write about the writers they like most. The clear winners, by the way, in the scholarship derby, are Ursula K. Le Guin and Philip K. Dick. Someone did a study of scholarly essays a couple of years back and determined that these two writers had been the subject of more academic essays than anyone else, by a considerable margin as I remember. On the other hand, there's very little academic writing about such enormously talented and diverse current writers as C.J.Cherryh, Kim Stanley Robinson, Lois McMaster Bujold, Sheri Tepper, Pat Cadigan, Michael Swanwick and Connie Willis and, if you want to go back a few decades, very little has been written on the work of such golden age giants as Henry Kuttner, C.L.Moore, Fritz Leiber, Judith Merril, and Theodore Sturgeon. Mike Levy