Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9711E" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:27:01 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: The Handmaid's Tale Comments: To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" In-Reply-To: <347F3B0F.E7B267A2@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > I'm sorry, Pat, but I disagree. The time in which a work was written is > an important part of research. While it would do good to look at all of > American history, it's the fact that Atwood saw the US as having the > potential to fall into a theocracy just as Iran did. I think any > individual who looks over the historical context in which a book was > written is overlooking an important influence over the book itself. > > Ever the non-poststructuralist, > > Geoffrey > I agree America had that potential. But as I see it, it has had that potential waiting in the wings for a long time, and once in everyone's lifetime it bursts out like a plague of boils. That the book was written in the mid-eighties is interesting - that she saw such a thing on the horizon then, when gender roles were about as feminist as they've been all century - is interesting. But we should all be aware of the undercurrents contributing to it. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:24:23 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: The Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > I agree America had that potential. But as I see it, it has > had > that potential waiting in the wings for a long time, and once in > everyone's lifetime it bursts out like a plague of boils. That the > book > was written in the mid-eighties is interesting - that she saw such a > thing > on the horizon then, when gender roles were about as feminist as > they've > been all century - is interesting. But we should all be aware of the > undercurrents contributing to it. > Certainly we should be aware of those undercurrents - from Cotton Mather to Pat Robertson, but the question is: what made Atwood write that novel at that moment? I would argue it was a mixture of the fall of the shah and the rise of the ayatollah in Iran, the Reagan presidency, the entire plague of 'me, me, me' attitude in the '80's, and (especially) the backlash against feminism that the neo-conservatives and the Reagan Democrats ushered in at that time. If Atwood had been writing at different times in American history, I think the outcome would have been far different than _The Handmaid's Tale_ we see today... - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:51:32 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanna Goltzman Subject: Gate to Women's Country and heroism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" _The Gate to Women's Country_ thread seems to have run its course, but I'd like to talk a little about heroism in the book. I've been looking at heroism in feminist sf a lot lately, and I can't figure out what is heroic about Stavia, who, after all, is Tepper's protagonist. Even when I strech the traditional concept of heroism to include more than typical "male" heroism, I can't see Stavia as particularly heroic. She doesn't do much in the book except tell the story of her life in Women's Country. I can argue that as a doctor Stavia behaves heroically. Stavia gives Chastity birth control even though Stavia could get in big trouble for doing so, and Stavia offers to come back to that distopian community (can't find the name) with birth control for all the women. But that's about as far as Stavia's heroism reaches. She, in fact, ends up getting rescued from the dystopian community--by men, of course! Perhaps Stavia isn't supposed to be a hero or is some sort of anti-hero. Maybe the group of women who run Women's Country can be considered a group hero. Any thoughts? Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:25:49 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Gate to Women's Country and heroism >I've been looking at heroism in feminist sf a lot lately, and I can't >figure out what is heroic about Stavia, who, after all, is Tepper's >protagonist. Possibly the genre here (utopia/dystopia) is not one in which people can act heroically: or at least, the idea of individual heroism is not relevant? Are we meant to be wondering whether the whole idea of the individual hero is a masculine construct? or that female heroism is something very different--maybe involving things like endurance rather than heroic feats? I don't think Stavia is meant to be heroic: she is the protagonist, which is different from 'the hero'. In the context of Tepper's other works, the (female) Wizards in the Jinian trilogy, who work in silence and cunning as opposed to the flashy antics of the Gamesmen, may have some resonance here. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:11:00 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gabrielle Bate Subject: Re: The Handmaid's Tale > I was just wondering if anyone could help me out? I'm writing a > thesis-driven paper about the socio-cultural experiences of the women in > The Handmaid's Tale. I really don't have any idea where to start...does > anyone have any suggestions as to a subject or thesis? > Thanks... One point I don't think anyone else has made yet is that Atwood is Canadian and, according to a Canadian friend of mine, damn proud of it, though she lived in Boston for a while. So while she is writing about the U.S. in particular, and Boston in specific, she herself is not an American. Gabby Bate ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: SF/Sci-Fi > At 06:29 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Barbara Benesch wrote: > >Okay, seriously. I'm very glad you posted this, Lindy, because I'd been > >becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the SF/Sci-Fi distinctions, just > >like I've always been uncomfortable with the "hard"/"soft" science > >distinctions. Personally, I think it's all a lot of hooey. > In a message dated 97-11-26 12:01:05 EST, Neil Rest wrote: > Barbara, if you were talking about Tepper, LeGuin and, say, _Looking > Backward_, and someone chimed in wanting to know which Terminator movie you > thought was better, you might well consider them off-topic, and perhaps > even of less discriminating taste. Amplify that sort of thing by a couple > of orders of magnitude. Neil, I can understand how when people were trying to pass "Attack of the Rutabega That Ate Albequerque" as comparable to Tolkien in the science fiction world, the distinction between "real" science fiction and "not-real" science fiction was important. However, as a 24-year-old, I've never thought of science fiction as *not* being a viable and legitimate form of literature. Perhaps that's the difficulty here. Otherwise, I guess you'd have to classify me as one of the people "of less discriminating taste" because as well as enjoying Tepper, et al., I enjoyed _both_ Terminator movies, and further I enjoy other (what I presume you would call) "less real" science fiction books, movies, and television shows. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com