From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fri May 22 09:17:40 1998 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:13:29 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: lquilter@HOOKED.NET Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9712B" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:04:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Le Anne Fossmeyer Subject: My apologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This is directly mostly to Thomas Grandstad, but also to anyone else who might have thought I was insulting them. I never meant to insult anyone. >That's precisely the kind of statement that any recipient would find >offensive, and more: it also appears to be intended to be offensive. >And the tone and content of the rest of your posting(s) seemed to >embellish such an intent, imparting derogatory stuff like 'we all >laughed of the godawful movie', 'it must be another version' (though >only one version exists) etc. etc. I am not so sure I did see the final edited movie. On campus, I've seen at least two movies that were not the final edits. I know for a fact that I saw scenes that were cut from the final edits of those movies. Hollywood really does "test market" some movies, and my city and my alma mater are often used as the market. San Diego is less than two hours away from the production companies. It also is fairly isolated--Pacific Ocean to the west, Mexico to the south, the desert to the east, and one of the worst newspapers you could want to read--so word-of-mouth or local reviews, etc, don't really impact national or even regional product positioning and the like. I have even more reason to doubt that what I saw was the final edit besides the fact that people seem to be talking about a different movie. The students were asked to fill out a questionnaire regarding the look and feel of the film, the scene with Bassett's character's child, the ending, and so on. Also, I saw the movie a month or two before its general release to the movie theaters. So, when I see in this list that people who've shown themselves to be perceptive and intelligent genuinely enjoyed the movie, I have to second guess what I saw. I never said people can't be intelligent and like SD at the same time. I said, actually, the very opposite. Because intelligent people liked the movie, then maybe I didn't see what they saw. And I admitted my own bias--because I saw the movie with an overwhelming majority of non-whites, I might have been overly sensitive to image of race. I apologize if I offended you or anyone else on the list. -LeAnne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:23:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Honor Harrington series Mark Smith wrote: "Are there any traditionalists on the list who think this should have been, "First Lady of the Admirality?"" How about "First of the Admirality" or "First (gender-neutral more descriptive term, such as 'leader', etc.) of the Admirality". Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:10:36 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lorry B. Bond" Subject: Re: genres, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:50 PM 12/7/97 -0600, you wrote: >On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Lorry B. Bond wrote: > >> Just a thought -- For any of you who think the written word is no longer a >> reflection of popular culture, exactly how much time have you spent reading >> the postings on this list???? BIG >> >> Lorry > >If (or more likely, when) they come up with means of participating in >on-line discussions by using a microphone instead of typing, don't you >think it will affect the numbers of people still willing to type and read >the messages? > >Marina > May be hard to predict, but it will be interesting to see what actually happens! This will most likely be a reality in our lifetimes (I already have a computer that I can speak commands into, but don't have it hooked up . . . ) Lorry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:39:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cat Farrar Subject: Re: genres, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Either way, this form of communication is valuable. What did we have before this? I'm pleased to be able to communicate with others that share my values and that live all over the world. This is a great medium. We should feel blessed, for now. By the way, I'm interested in reading books that feature strong, independent woman that are physically fit and confident in their approach to life. Haven't read science fiction since high school, so I need recommendations. I am emphatically not interested in reading about any female characters who did it all or even part of it for a male. I'm not exclusively intersted in lesbian heros. I just want to read about female heros that are heroic. This must include physical strength or skill. Looking forward to all the recommendations I'm sure will come in. If anyone wants to explain why they recommend a certain book, I'm sure you can understand why that would be valuable. If you enjoy and value strong women, do a web search for Amazon International. Cat Farrar At 09:10 PM 12/8/97 -0600, you wrote: >At 07:50 PM 12/7/97 -0600, you wrote: >>On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Lorry B. Bond wrote: >> >>> Just a thought -- For any of you who think the written word is no longer a >>> reflection of popular culture, exactly how much time have you spent reading >>> the postings on this list???? BIG >>> >>> Lorry >> >>If (or more likely, when) they come up with means of participating in >>on-line discussions by using a microphone instead of typing, don't you >>think it will affect the numbers of people still willing to type and read >>the messages? >> >>Marina >> > > >May be hard to predict, but it will be interesting to see what actually >happens! This will most likely be a reality in our lifetimes (I already >have a computer that I can speak commands into, but don't have it hooked up >. . . ) > >Lorry > > ~Cat Farrar ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced." ~Martha McCaughey Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:38:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: genres, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971208211036.006ac0d4@students.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm sure it won't be too long before online discussions get audio and visual options. However, I wonder if it's going to co-exist with the traditional "typing style" lists (kind of like movies did not eliminate books, and television theaters) or typing is going to go the way of those pens you were supposed to stick into a bottle with ink to write. Marina On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Lorry B. Bond wrote: > >If (or more likely, when) they come up with means of participating in > >on-line discussions by using a microphone instead of typing, don't you > >think it will affect the numbers of people still willing to type and read > >the messages? > > May be hard to predict, but it will be interesting to see what actually > happens! This will most likely be a reality in our lifetimes (I already > have a computer that I can speak commands into, but don't have it hooked up > . . . ) > > Lorry > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:57:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MARINA YERESHENKO Subject: Re: Honor Harrington series Comments: To: Cynthia Gonsalves In-Reply-To: <348B2070.543A613D@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Cynthia Gonsalves wrote: > Actually, I thought it was cool that a woman could be First Lord of the > Admiralty. Since it's a job, and not an inherited title, I guess it > didn't bother me too much. Also, in the 6th book, did you notice that > one of the past Andermani emperors (died childless, and the succession > goes in the male line) was succeeded by his sister who had herself > legally declared a man to avert a war between her male cousins? Turned > out to be one of the best "emperors" the Andermani have had. > > A rose is just a rose by any other name... Did not read the book, however, this reminds me of the term "e-girl" (24th century slang for police officer) from Samuel Delany's _Triton_. Originally, it was "enforcement officer", but because 90% of them were women, they started calling them "enforcement girls", or "e-girls". The interesting part was that when gender proportion in the field changed, they were still called "e-girls", including the male ones. I would be kind of nice, I think, if there were a title like First Lady of Admiralty, which whould stay the same for both women and men in that position. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:41:15 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: genres, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cat Farrar wrote: > > By the way, I'm interested in reading books that feature strong, > independent woman that are physically fit and confident in their approach to > life. Haven't read science fiction since high school, so I need > recommendations. I am emphatically not interested in reading about any > female characters who did it all or even part of it for a male. I'm not > exclusively intersted in lesbian heros. I just want to read about female > heros that are heroic. This must include physical strength or skill. > Looking forward to all the recommendations I'm sure will come in. Cat, if you don't mind me recommending my own books, it sounds like they fit the bill of what you're looking for, particularly *Primary Inversion* and *The Last Hawk*. If you want to look at a few chapters from them, they are available free on the web, through either my web site or my publisher's web site. If you go to http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ and click on the free chapters link, it will take you there. You can either look at one page or the first 3-4 chapters. Best regards Catherine Asaro ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:48:21 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: genres, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-08 23:13:56 EST, Cat Farrar wrote: > By the way, I'm interested in reading books that feature strong, > independent woman that are physically fit and confident in their approach to > life. Haven't read science fiction since high school, so I need > recommendations. I am emphatically not interested in reading about any > female characters who did it all or even part of it for a male. I'm not > exclusively intersted in lesbian heros. I just want to read about female > heros that are heroic. This must include physical strength or skill. > Looking forward to all the recommendations I'm sure will come in. > > If anyone wants to explain why they recommend a certain book, I'm sure you > can understand why that would be valuable. > > If you enjoy and value strong women, do a web search for Amazon > International. > > Cat Farrar > Some ideas: _Oathbound_ and _Oathbreakers_ by Mercedes Lackey - not very deep, but good adventure and about the friendship between two women who are both more than capable of taking care of themselves. More fantasy than science fiction. _Rimrunners_ by C.J. Cherryh - also not real deep, futuristic science fiction, a little complicated, I thought, but still good, about a woman stuck in a situation where everyone can be an enemy, but she follows her own conscience regardless. I'm afraid I can't think of any others right now that exactly fit the bill. But those are good starts. Mercedes Lackey has several other series set in the same world as _Oathbound_ and _Oathbreakers_, and most of those features a strong female main character, but most of them are more "romance-y" than the "Oath" series. My personal opinion is that the "Oath" series is the top of that particular heap. If you don't mind something with a chunk of romance in it, then I would also recommend _War_for_the_Oaks_ by Emma Bull - set in modern-day Minneapolis about a female rock musician who gets recruited into an elven war over the Minneapolis area. Again, not real deep, but a lot of fun. And for all the romance, the protagonist still makes her own choices, regardless. Barbara J. Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:44:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: Le Anne Fossmeyer >Subject: My apologies >I am not so sure I did see the final edited movie. On campus, I've seen >at least two movies that were not the final edits. I know for a fact >that I saw scenes that were cut from the final edits of those movies. >Hollywood really does "test market" some movies, and my city and my alma >mater are often used as the market. San Diego is less than two hours >away from the production companies. It also is fairly isolated--Pacific >Ocean to the west, Mexico to the south, the desert to the east, and one >of the worst newspapers you could want to read--so word-of-mouth or >local reviews, etc, don't really impact national or even regional >product positioning and the like. > Le Anne, you do make SD sound pretty unappealing! Gotta agree with you on the state of the local newspaper. However, once Camp Pendleton is gone, I think we are just going to blend into Orange County, and eventually L.A. in a huge Megatropolis. (Which is one of the reasons I think one doesn't see much of San Diego in SF of the future, but maybe there are other reasons.) However, if you are calculating SD as less than two hours away from LA, I gotta ask what mode of transportation you're using! On the bright side, I love the desert, all sorts of different climates are within an easy drive, and San Diego DOES have that great specialty bookstore... Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:55:00 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Teaching Resource: Atwood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I received a brochure that mentioned a new MLA publication: _Approaches to Teaching Atwood's_The Handmaid's Tale_and Other Works_, edited by Sharon R. Wilson, Thomas B. Friedman, and Shannon Hengen. It looks very good! (As do some others in the same series). If you'd like a copy of the brochure with info on ordering, drop me a private message and I'll send it off to you. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:20:04 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com > >From what I have seen, it is mostly Chicago, London, and LA Becca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:23:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Honor Harrington series and Antonia's Line In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Someone asked a while back what a US female president's husband's name would be. In Frederick Pohl's _Coming of the Quantum Cats_, an answer (if not the answer) is provided. In one of the alternative universes, Nancy Reagan was President, and next to her (always looking attentive and dapper) was the "First Gentleman" Ronnie.I liked the title. Wonder when it will happen. In another thread someone brought up the gender differences in perception on Antonia's Line. Simular experiences occured here in Canada, with some (male) reviewers criticising it for its "anti-male" stance. As the person who first raised the question astutely pointed out, Antonia's Line is definitely not anti-male as most of the male characters are sympathetic. There is absolute criticism of one of them (the incestuous pedophile) but how critque-ing such a chararacter reduces to anti-male is difficult to see. What I think many (definitely not all) men found "anti-male" is the overall vision of Antonia's Line is b/c male characters are far more periferal than usual. Goodness knows, women are used to this.Imagine, males can simply be used to make you pregnant, in the example of Antonia's daughter, while your real emotional and sexual life is centered on an other women! Or an attentive man's proposal is turned down b/c you don't want to be lumbered with his children, but happily sleep with him anyway. Men can be used (and are quite happy so to be used). The horror, the horror! I really think (some) men do percieve themselves as the center of the universe, and thus percieve any movie that has the gall to place them on the margins as anti-male. What they are suffering from is delusions of absolute importance, and so lash out irrationally when anyone challenges this vision, a challenge that AL posited beautifully. On the whole, this attitude is pathetic (although its also worrying). I wonder if AL can be seen in the context of Feminist Utopias? It is after all a strongly matriarchical society, with female autonomy a given postulate, female intelligence assumned, with a wide range of sexual behaviors not only tolerated but celebrated (ranging from the earth mother type who adores being pregnant, to casual sex and not so casual sex, to commited Lesbain relationships) and individuals being allowed to act as individuals while always being accepted within this community, while forces threatening this world from the outside are dealt with with the violence that frequently characterises all utopias. Hurrah, what a movie! Anyone know who directed it? Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:02:07 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Peter Buckland Subject: Re: genres, etc. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:50:36 -0600 MARINA YERESHENKO wrote: > If (or more likely, when) they come up with means of participating in > on-line discussions by using a microphone instead of typing, don't you > think it will affect the numbers of people still willing to type and read > the messages? Too late! Speak Freely allows text and voice communication. http://www.fourmilab.ch/netfone/windows/speak_freely.html CU-See Me has voice and video capabillities. http://cu-seeme.cornell.edu/PC.CU-SeeMeCurrent.html I have not tried either system, so I am simply pointing them out. Internet Explorer 4 has voice-mail facillities. I have tried IE 4, and I am definitly _not_ recommending it. No, I don't think that voice will have much affect on online discussions. And hopefully none on offline discussions such as this. The beauty of email (Micro$oft please note) is its simplicity. One voice-mail message would take longer to receive than the 50 - 100 other messages I get each day. If one in ten messages carried voice I would need a new hard drive if I wanted to keep them for reference. Also, (excuse me, someone is at the door... sorry I was so long, are you still there?) holding discussions offline means that we ca(What now? OK, I'll be there in a few minutes)n all participate when it suits us best without missing anything. Long live the written word. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel " "" " " "" (Random Quotes) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:34:15 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: l schmeiser Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities In-Reply-To: <001401bd04c6$b0e56020$72745181@raven.tcs.tulane.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? >>From what I have seen, it is mostly Chicago, London, and LA > >Becca add to that San Francisco (Wm. Gibson, John Shirley) and New York (Gibson again, James Morrow). Gibson's got an interesting take on it: he predicts that the East Coast cities will mutate into one huge urban corridor known as "The Sprawl." It'll start in Boston and wind its way down to Atlanta. -lisa ================================================== wryly subverting the dominant new-media buzzword paradigm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit l schmeiser wrote: > Gibson's got an interesting take on it: he predicts > that the East Coast cities will mutate into one huge urban corridor > known > as "The Sprawl." It'll start in Boston and wind its way down to > Atlanta. Actually, a lot of urban planners already see Gibson's BAMA (Boston-Atlanta Metropolitan Axis) as existing. I understand that, depending on the roads you take, you could crive the Boston-Atalanta corridor and never not see a cityscape... - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:21:41 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities Comments: To: "gamgee@GEOCITIES.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would definately say this was already true between Washington-Baltimore (declared a single census area metropolis) and New York... but depending on what you consider a city scape. But to bring this back to what cities are most often in SF... how about what cities are conspicuously absent? I must be reading too many post-catastrophic works, but it seems to me that large cities are mostly known by their destruction. misha >---------- >From: Geoffrey D. Sperl[SMTP:gamgee@GEOCITIES.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 1:08 PM >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] San Diego/ SF cities > >l schmeiser wrote: > >> Gibson's got an interesting take on it: he predicts >> that the East Coast cities will mutate into one huge urban corridor >> known >> as "The Sprawl." It'll start in Boston and wind its way down to >> Atlanta. > >Actually, a lot of urban planners already see Gibson's BAMA >(Boston-Atlanta Metropolitan Axis) as existing. I understand that, >depending on the roads you take, you could crive the Boston-Atalanta >corridor and never not see a cityscape... > >- Geoffrey >-- >"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect > >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:59:32 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Donna L. Hall" Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 6 Dec 1997 to 7 Dec 1997 Cynthia Gonsalves wrote: >Subject: Re: Honor Harrington series >Actually, I thought it was cool that a woman could be First Lord of the >Admiralty. Since it's a job, and not an inherited title, I guess it >didn't bother me too much. Also, in the 6th book, did you notice that >one of the past Andermani emperors (died childless, and the succession >goes in the male line) was succeeded by his sister who had herself >legally declared a man to avert a war between her male cousins? Turned >out to be one of the best "emperors" the Andermani have had. I recently read about a tribal group in which, if a family has too few sons to provide for the parents in their older years, a daughter will be declared a son, and raised as one, to grow up with all of the rights and responsibilities of a son. Seems similar to this emperor who was legally declared a man. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:38:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: gentle reminder AGAIN Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ok, just reminding everyone (1) to please keep the topics relating to feminism & sf and (2) if you reply please delete all the extraneous text from the original - no need to send every-longer replies to the list. Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL Summer 97: Another "eyewitness" recants her testimony against Mumia and cites police coercion as the reason for her perjury. http://www.calyx.com/~refuse/mumia/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:06:10 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:34 AM 12/9/1997 -0800, you wrote: >>>Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? >>>From what I have seen, it is mostly Chicago, London, and LA >> >>Becca > >add to that San Francisco (Wm. Gibson, John Shirley) and New York (Gibson >again, James Morrow). Gibson's got an interesting take on it: he predicts >that the East Coast cities will mutate into one huge urban corridor known >as "The Sprawl." It'll start in Boston and wind its way down to Atlanta. > >-lisa > Another San Francisco: Fritz Leiber, _Our Lady of Darkness_ > >================================================== >wryly subverting the dominant new-media buzzword paradigm > > Martha Bartter Truman State University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:04:24 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities Comments: To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" In-Reply-To: <348DA53D.37427AA7@geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > l schmeiser wrote: > > > Gibson's got an interesting take on it: he predicts > > that the East Coast cities will mutate into one huge urban corridor > > known > > as "The Sprawl." It'll start in Boston and wind its way down to > > Atlanta. > > Actually, a lot of urban planners already see Gibson's BAMA > (Boston-Atlanta Metropolitan Axis) as existing. I understand that, > depending on the roads you take, you could crive the Boston-Atalanta > corridor and never not see a cityscape... > > - Geoffrey > -- There's a writer's group in Cambridge, MA that has written a whole series of SF stories set in Boston. It includes Alexander Jablokov, David Alexander Smith, and several others. They've even published an anthology called, I believe, Future Boston. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:43:29 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lorry B. Bond" Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:44 AM 12/9/97 -0800, you wrote: >>From: Le Anne Fossmeyer >>Subject: My apologies > > >Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? New York???? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:50:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lorry B. Bond" Subject: Re: Honor Harrington series and Antonia's Line In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:23 PM 12/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Someone asked a while back what a US female president's husband's name >would be. In Frederick Pohl's _Coming of the Quantum Cats_, an answer (if >not the answer) is provided. In one of the alternative universes, Nancy >Reagan was President, and next to her (always looking attentive >and dapper) was the "First Gentleman" Ronnie.I liked the title. Wonder >when it will happen. Please forgive this diversion, as well as my politics (if this applies to you), but Nancy Reagan as _President_???? Now that's a scary thought indeed! BTW -- _Antonia's Line_ , which I never heard of until I read about it on this list, sounds interesting, but me, I prefer my stuff anti-male! Lorry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:54:53 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: SF/Sci-Fi Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-05 14:04:51 EST, pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM writes: > The only way I can see to introduce fantasy to our earth and have it > affect history might go something like this: A meteor lands in a remote > area, causing much destruction and poluting the water table. The genetic > damage caused by the pollutant eventually breeds true, so that New > Zealand is now populated by sentient, ambulatory plants, talking frogs > and spell casting shape-shifters. Introduce them to history when and > how you will. It may still be called Science Fiction, though, because > the fantastic creatures were the result of well established scientific > principles. I think Catweasel should write this up at novel length. Highly entertaining! Does Captain James Cook introduce the creatures to Europe? Hmmm. Might an England that was armed with shapeshifter spies win out over those upstart Americans? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:54:56 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Fairy Tale Princesses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I was a bit appalled to see that you can now buy Angel Princess Barbie. Without getting into the "angel" part, I found myself wondering about the "princess" designation. I imagine this is partly due to the public's fixation on Princess Di. (Come to think of it, maybe the "angel" part is due to that too.) But I also realized that Barbie will always be termed a princess, and never a queen. When I look at the role of princesses in fairy tales, I see women who are virginal and powerless. Often their role in the story seems to be to get into peril (often caused by a woman, jealous of the princess's youth or beauty) and then be saved by Prince Charming. Queens in fairy tales are sexual and powerful. And, it seems to me, invariably evil. A king may be good or bad, but if a queen is present in the story, she's wicked. Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the queen is good or at least neutral? Anny Who is hoping that list subscribers won't march her to the wall and have her executed for bringing up Barbie again AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:58:18 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-09 12:27:04 EST, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? Let's not forget Asian cities! William Gibson in particular seems very fond of Japanese cities, although I have seen various Asian cities pop up in other works as well. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 05:39:24 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gdbassham Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-11 02:13:37 EST, you write: << Queens in fairy tales are sexual and powerful. And, it seems to me, invariably evil. A king may be good or bad, but if a queen is present in the story, she's wicked. Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the queen is good or at least neutral? >> I can only think of dead queens--like Snow White's mother. Although now that I think about it, I can't remember a king in a fairy tale who was neither evil nor ineffectual. -- Gayla ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:48:56 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 09/12/97 16:44:48 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful business, I observed Maryelizabeth Hart , hereinafter referrded as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? Seattle and, for no readilly apparent reason, Montreal. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel I wish I could remember where I parked my hard disk. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:49:01 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses In-Reply-To: <8d3b296e.348f8033@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 11/12/97 05:54:56 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful business, I observed AnnyMiddon , hereinafter referrded as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > I was a bit appalled to see that you can now buy Angel Princess Barbie. > Anny > Who is hoping that list subscribers won't march her to the wall and have her > executed for bringing up Barbie again Now I KNOW shooting is too good for you. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel Hollowpoints - the ultimate in feminine protection. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:48:50 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: A Novel idea In-Reply-To: <98482cee.348f802f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 11/12/97 05:54:53 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful business, I observed AnnyMiddon , hereinafter referrded as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > In a message dated 97-12-05 14:04:51 EST, pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM writes: > > > The only way I can see to introduce fantasy to our earth and have it > > affect history might go something like this: A meteor lands in a remote > > area, causing much destruction and poluting the water table. The genetic > > damage caused by the pollutant eventually breeds true, so that New > > Zealand is now populated by sentient, ambulatory plants, talking frogs > > and spell casting shape-shifters. Introduce them to history when and > > how you will. It may still be called Science Fiction, though, because > > the fantastic creatures were the result of well established scientific > > principles. > > I think Catweasel should write this up at novel length. Highly entertaining! > Does Captain James Cook introduce the creatures to Europe? Hmmm. Might an > England that was armed with shapeshifter spies win out over those upstart > Americans? Damn, I was hoping nobody would make that suggestion! Anny, I shall be spending what little time I have spare in thinking up suitable punishments. Shooting? Too quick. Boiling in oil? I haven't got a big enough cauldron. Burning at the stake? I would need proof that you are a witch. Can anyone help on that score? Maybe I should just force you to read the finished novel! Serially, though, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I am not a good enough writer to carry it off by myself, though. How do you lot feel about a co-operative FSFFU novel? Perhaps a shared universe a la Thieves' World, although on a different time scale. Anybody interested in writing for the project, or just with suggestions or offers of help, please write to me. I'll get back to you in a few days with a draught proposal. Oh yes. Dealing with those damned colonists - an excellent idea. Care to run with it, Anny? Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel How do I set my LaserJet to "Stun"? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:33:16 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: Honor Harrington series and Antonia's Line > > Please forgive this diversion, as well as my politics (if this applies to > you), but Nancy Reagan as _President_???? Now that's a scary thought > indeed! > Almost as scary as Ronald Reagan as _President_... Penny ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:32:40 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "T. ALONSO" Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think we should include New York at the top even if it mostly appears as a dead city. ->To the question: > >>Anyone know offhand what existing cities pop up most in SF of the future? >> >> >>Maryelizabeth >>Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >>3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >>San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >>http://www.mystgalaxy.com >> >Becca replied : >From what I have seen, it is mostly Chicago, London, and LA > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:47:47 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "T. ALONSO" Subject: Re: Honor Harrington series and Antonia's Line Comments: To: Tanya Wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On december 9, at 18:31, Tanya wrote Re: [*FSFFU*] Honor Harrington series and Antonia's Line >>>Hurrah, what a movie! Anyone know who directed it? The director is a Dutch woman called Marleen Gorris. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:28:37 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: Re: Antonia's Line/Marleen Gorris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gorris' did another movie (well, more than one) that I have seen and would recommend: _A Question of Silence_ in English (or direct tranlation, the Silence around Christine M.). It may not quite be SF, but it was definately surreal and when we watched it in class, it had the same reactions (men disliked it because of the violence or seeming lack of rationality or thought it was over-done and women tended to be positive). I would really check it out if you are interested in a different perspective on rational action or legal systems. While it is set in a perfectly plausible present day (or early '80s Netherlands), it still has elements of SF to me. misha >---------- >From: T. ALONSO[SMTP:malonsoal@nexo.es] >Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:47 AM >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Honor Harrington series and Antonia's Line > >On december 9, at 18:31, Tanya wrote Re: [*FSFFU*] Honor Harrington series >and Antonia's Line > > >>>>Hurrah, what a movie! Anyone know who directed it? > >The director is a Dutch woman called Marleen Gorris. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:22:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Re: A Novel idea In-Reply-To: <199712111148.LAA13419@lions.cableinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:48 AM 12/11/97 GMT, you wrote: >Anny, I shall be spending what little time I have spare in thinking up >suitable punishments. Shooting? Too quick. Boiling in oil? I haven't got >a big enough cauldron. Burning at the stake? I would need proof that you >are a witch. Can anyone help on that score? Maybe I should just force >you to read the finished novel! Technically, the proof that she's a witch is to throw her in the water. If she floats, then she's made of wood! no.... she's a witch! Then, proven to be a witch, she can righteously be burned at the stake. jenn -- {jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] {generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] {athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] {http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:25:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses In-Reply-To: <8d3b296e.348f8033@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:54 AM 12/11/97 EST, you wrote: >I imagine this is partly due to the public's fixation on Princess Di. (Come >to think of it, maybe the "angel" part is due to that too.) But I also >realized that Barbie will always be termed a princess, and never a queen. She can't be a queen. Queens are married (in fables, anyhow... ) and old. In order to be an accessible role model for the girls, the princess needs to go through the same emotional situations that a girl might find herself in (or wish herself in!). You won't find a queen pining away for a prince. (er... you'd hope she's more mature than that) The minute Barbie becomes a queen, she becomes adult. She has status rather than potential. There's no mobility for her anymore... she's hit that glass ceiling. And you and I know, you can't trust anyone over 30, right? ;-) I hate Barbie's message too. >When I look at the role of princesses in fairy tales, I see women who are >virginal and powerless. Often their role in the story seems to be to get into >peril (often caused by a woman, jealous of the princess's youth or beauty) and >then be saved by Prince Charming. Here's a quote from _Women Who Run With the Wolves_: "_The Handless Maiden_ is about women's initiation into the underground forest through the rite of endurance. The word "endurance" sounds as though it means "to continue without cessation," and while this is an occasional part of the tasks underlying the tale, the word "endurance" also means "to harden, to make sturdy, to make robust, to strengthen," and this is the principal thrust of the tale, and the generative feature of a woman's long psychic life. We don't just go on to go on. Endurance means we are making something." Problem is, like any poorly written story, the main female character does not use her own strength and wisdom to get herself out of trouble, but instead waits for a deus ex machina in the shape of Ken Doll. _Women and Wolves_ addresses that too: "When women re-surface from their naivete, they draw with them and to themselves something unexplored. In this case the now wiser woman draws an internal masculine energy to her aid. In Jungian psychology, this element has been named _animus_; a partly mortal, partly instinctual, partly cultural element of a woman's psyche that shows up in fairy tales and in dream symbols as her son, husband, stranger, and/or lover -- possibly threatening depending on her psychic circumstances of the moment. This psychic figure is particularly valuable because it is invested with qualities which are traditionally bred out of women, aggression being one of the more common." >Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the >queen is good or at least neutral? If the mother/queen is present and good, then there's no story. The mother's not going to stand around quietly while the daughter goes off on adventures. If trouble shows up, the mother will take care of it and protect the daughter. That doesn't give much of a story for the daughter to create. Sleeping Beauty. Her mother just hangs back with her dad while the fairies take Aurora off into the forest for 16 years. (a note: Prince Phillip's mom is dead) I can't think of other Disney movies -- Cinderella is the only other princess one that comes to mind. There was one day that I lined up my kids, and lined up the movies (we have a strangely large collection) and we went through and lined the movies up by dead parents (all but 2 or 3 had one or both parents dead) and then lined them up by how many females were present and in what roles. 3/4 of the movies only had one female, as a token love interest. The ones that were left had females waiting to be rescued. The only one with any redeeming characteristic was Beauty and the Beast. She solves her own problems, she sets out against adversity, and she reads books! :-) jenn (who is hoping that this isn't too long and ponderous in such a friendly, light list) -- {jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] {generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] {athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] {http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:29:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the >queen is good or at least neutral? How about Isolde/Iseult? Does this qualify as "fairy tale?" I would say that Isolde the elder (mother) was not evil, perhaps even possitive. It is her love potion (that she intended to positively help her daughter and her future husband) that causes the problems, but only because SOME ONE ELSE mistakenly/carelessly goes against the queen's advice and give it to Isolde (younger) and Tristan (instead of Mark). misha ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marilyn Nulman Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anny and list--I'm a storyteller who tells to children and adults, and I want to assure you that yes, there are queens and kings who are good people and the prime movers of their tales, but these tales have fallen into obscurity, for the most part. In the days before general literacy, folk and fairy tales were an important source of entertainment and education. Storytellers told stories that addressed every aspect of life and development, from the youngster dealing with the discovery of evil without and within, to the adolescent setting out to find a life's work and life's companion, to the adult dealing with loss, disillusionment, old age and death. As literacy became more common, and adults turned to novels for entertainment, only the tales told to children stayed popular. By the way, I would approach any tale told by Disney with great caution. They have been wrenched out of shape. The old versions are far more nourishing to the spirit, especially the female spirit. Alan Chinen, a psychiatrist, has collected four books of tales useful to us older folk. They are, "In the Ever After", about old age, "Once Upon a Midlife", self explanitory, "Beyond the Hero", about men's journeys past macho, and Waking World, about the heroic feminine. I recommend them highly. The excellent "Women Who Run With the Wolves" has alread been mentioned, and I'd like to add "The King and the Corpse", a collection by Heinrich Zimmer that has enriched my life immeasurably. I'm so glad you started this thread. Marilyn At 12:54 AM 12/11/97 EST, you wrote: >I was a bit appalled to see that you can now buy Angel Princess Barbie. >Without getting into the "angel" part, I found myself wondering about the >"princess" designation. > >I imagine this is partly due to the public's fixation on Princess Di. (Come >to think of it, maybe the "angel" part is due to that too.) But I also >realized that Barbie will always be termed a princess, and never a queen. > >When I look at the role of princesses in fairy tales, I see women who are >virginal and powerless. Often their role in the story seems to be to get into >peril (often caused by a woman, jealous of the princess's youth or beauty) and >then be saved by Prince Charming. > >Queens in fairy tales are sexual and powerful. And, it seems to me, >invariably evil. A king may be good or bad, but if a queen is present in the >story, she's wicked. > >Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the >queen is good or at least neutral? > >Anny >Who is hoping that list subscribers won't march her to the wall and have her >executed for bringing up Barbie again >AnnyMiddon@aol.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:07:52 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the >queen is good or at least neutral? > Sleeping Beauty had a kind mother as a Queen, unfortunately, they didn't live together... Becca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:50:43 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: San Diego/ SF cities In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971210224329.006adc78@students.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Lorry B. Bond wrote: > At 08:44 AM 12/9/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>From: Le Anne Fossmeyer > >>Subject: My apologies > > > > > > > >Anyone know offhand what exisiting cities pop up most in SF of the future? > > > > New York???? > Actually I believe there was an entire anthology of sf stories about New York called Future New York. It came out in like 1995. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:14:39 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Re: A Novel idea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally do not like all this talk about burning witches. Becca -----Original Message----- From: jenn mottram To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] A Novel idea >At 11:48 AM 12/11/97 GMT, you wrote: >>Anny, I shall be spending what little time I have spare in thinking up >>suitable punishments. Shooting? Too quick. Boiling in oil? I haven't got >>a big enough cauldron. Burning at the stake? I would need proof that you >>are a witch. Can anyone help on that score? Maybe I should just force >>you to read the finished novel! > >Technically, the proof that she's a witch is to throw her in the water. >If she floats, then she's made of wood! no.... she's a witch! > >Then, proven to be a witch, she can righteously be burned at the stake. > >jenn > > > >-- >{jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] >{generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] >{athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] >{http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:07:58 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses In-Reply-To: <8d3b296e.348f8033@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, AnnyMiddon wrote: > I was a bit appalled to see that you can now buy Angel Princess Barbie. > Without getting into the "angel" part, I found myself wondering about the > "princess" designation. > > I imagine this is partly due to the public's fixation on Princess Di. (Come > to think of it, maybe the "angel" part is due to that too.) But I also > realized that Barbie will always be termed a princess, and never a queen. > > When I look at the role of princesses in fairy tales, I see women who are > virginal and powerless. Often their role in the story seems to be to get into > peril (often caused by a woman, jealous of the princess's youth or beauty) and > then be saved by Prince Charming. > > Queens in fairy tales are sexual and powerful. And, it seems to me, > invariably evil. A king may be good or bad, but if a queen is present in the > story, she's wicked. > > Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the > queen is good or at least neutral? > > Anny Many fairytales include Queens who are "good or at least neutral" but most of them function merely as wives to their kings, silent and without impact on the tale except for their value as symbols of national and marital stability. Active good queens are relatively rare, although you see some figures obviously descended from Queen Elizabeth I who take a more active role. See, for example, Spenser's The Faerie Queen. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:19:10 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sleeping Beauty. Her mother just hangs back with her dad while the fairies >take Aurora off into the forest for 16 years. (a note: Prince Phillip's >mom is dead) > >I can't think of other Disney movies -- Cinderella is the only other >princess one that comes to mind. I know it isn't a princess, but Dumbo had a mother, who tried to protec him, and was locked up for it... Just a thought Becca > >-- >{jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] >{generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] >{athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] >{http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Nancy as president In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Must be more careful when I type in e-mails. I wasn't wondering when Nancy would make it as president! Although its certainly no worse a prospect than Ronald was, as one respondant noted. But I WAS wondering when the USA would have a "first gentleman". In both in Canada and New Zealand (my home turf) I note that women only make it when there is such a political mess that it seems impossible for anyone to clean it up. Canada had Kim Campbell replacing the unlamented Mulroney, to face an impossible election (she was definitely a scapegoat) and in NZ, we have just recived our first female PM, Jenny Shipley ( a Thatcher clone), who by a coup d'etat has taken over a dreadful coalition goverment and shrinking popularity ratings. I suspect that the USA might get its first female president under simular conditions. One notes that women who make it to the top job often, oddly, tend to be conservative...maybe there is a Thatcher in the US political wings (although I hope not, my sneaking admiration for Thatcher aside). Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:12:37 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Michelle Bernard wrote: > > > How about Isolde/Iseult? Does this qualify as "fairy tale?" I would > say that Isolde the elder (mother) was not evil, perhaps even possitive. > It is her love potion (that she intended to positively help her > daughter and her future husband) that causes the problems, but only > because SOME ONE ELSE mistakenly/carelessly goes against the queen's > advice and give it to Isolde (younger) and Tristan (instead of Mark). > DO read Diana Paxson's WHITE RAVEN, the story of Isolde's maid Branwen.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:15:08 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Nancy as president In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > female president under simular conditions. One notes that women who make > it to the top job often, oddly, tend to be conservative...maybe there is a > Thatcher in the US political wings (although I hope not, my sneaking > admiration for Thatcher aside). > Yes. This is the "Only Nixon could go to China" syndrome. Just as it takes a leader with impeccable liberal credentials to put over a "conservative" reform. If even S/HE believes in this, it MUST be desirable.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Geoffrey Sperl Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Nancy as president MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tanya Wood wrote: > > maybe there is a > Thatcher in the US political wings (although I hope not, my sneaking > admiration for Thatcher aside). Unfortunately, yes: The education-butcher herself - Christine Todd Whitman. I hope any presidential ambitions she has stay within the realm of SF... - Geoffrey > Tanya. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:05:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Nancy as president In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > it to the top job often, oddly, tend to be conservative...maybe there is a > Thatcher in the US political wings (although I hope not, my sneaking > admiration for Thatcher aside). > > Tanya. > Current candidates for America's Thatcher are Elizabeth Dole and NJ. Governor Christie Whitman, both highly-competent women, although the latter has alienated the evangelical wing of the Republican party by being pro-choice. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:17:34 +0000 Reply-To: susan.courtney@virgin.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Courtney Subject: Re: A Novel idea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Becca. I was just about to thank the Goddess I live in England, which, despite its state religion is not threatening those of us who practice the old religion with a new edition of the inquisition, instead of the dear old USA with its freedom of religion and separation of chuch and state enshrined in the constitution and a right wing backlash which thinks it's funny to joke about gendercide. I thought this was a feminist list! Susan Becca Stoler wrote: > > I personally do not like all this talk about burning witches. > > Becca > -----Original Message----- > From: jenn mottram > To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu > Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 10:47 AM > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] A Novel idea > > >At 11:48 AM 12/11/97 GMT, you wrote: > >>Anny, > >Technically, the proof that she's a witch is to throw her in the water. > >If she floats, then she's made of wood! no.... she's a witch! > > > >Then, proven to be a witch, she can righteously be burned at the stake. > > > >jenn > > > > > > > >-- > >{jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] > >{generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] > >{athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] > >{http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:41:53 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Strong women books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought you'd be swamped with suggestions, Cat, but it didn't seem like it so here are a few of mine. Octavia Butler's Survivor - great protagonist, fiercely independent; also her Exogenisis trilogy, especially the first one about Lilith (I think that was the protagonist's name). Butler writes really well about women faced with impossible situations who do their best to find a livable future. Eleanor Arnason's A Woman of the Iron People - this is a fascinating creation and I look forward to reading the followup Suzy McKee Charnas's Walk to the End of the World, where women are slaves - Alderra is a wonderfully strong character. Stay with it - it starts slowly and grimly. Ru Emerson' s fantasy book The Princess of Flames Nicola Griffith's Ammonite Barbara Hambly's Dragonsbane - I really like her portrayal of Jenny (I think that's the character's name) and her struggle to have a relationship with a man and kids and also have the time to be a strong witch (it's not as cliched as it sounds) Phyllis Ann Karr's Frostflower books - two neat independent female chracters and a great role reversal going on in the background. Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion series, starting with Sheepfarmer's Daughter Vonda McIntyre's Dreamsnake (one of her early books, may be hard to find) Robin McKinley's two related novels The Blue Sword and The Hero and The Crown about young women growing up and becoming heroes Joan Slonczewski's A Door Into Ocean - I love this world, but stay with it, it starts slowly and obliquely Sherri Tepper's trilogy of fantasies about Mavin Many-Shaped- the Song of.., the Search of.., and the Flight of.. A wonderful, eccentric character. Lisa Tuttle's Windhaven is a great book about a revolution sparked by a woman who wouldn't accept subordinate status for herself or others Enjoy! Jenny Rankine, jrankine@hrc.govt.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:31:49 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Josephine Saxton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I am re-reading Josephine Saxton's _The Travails of Jane Saint and Other Stories_. (ISBN: 0-7043-4037-2 The Women's Press Limited, 1986). I enjoy the humor and getting to know Ms. Saxton's view of feminism (some of which is quite similar to mine). This is not one of those books to read while sleepy. Also, a huge amount of background knowledge is required to appreciate the hundreds of subtleties embedded in names, actions, geography, etc. I understood maybe 75% of them on the first read. Has anyone else read this one? She appears to be mostly an author of short stories and novellas, although one of works listed in the bio, _The Queen of the States_ , appears to be a novel. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to live over, I'd make all the same mistakes, only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com/ Resources related to women, disabilities and literature ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:59:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Re: A Novel idea In-Reply-To: <3490667E.66FE@virgin.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:17 PM 12/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Thanks, Becca. I was just about to thank the Goddess I live in England, >which, despite its state religion is not threatening those of us who >practice the old religion with a new edition of the inquisition, instead >of the dear old USA with its freedom of religion and separation of chuch >and state enshrined in the constitution and a right wing backlash which >thinks it's funny to joke about gendercide. I thought this was a >feminist list! > >Susan Wow. I must have inadvertently stepped on a lot of toes with what I thought was merely a tongue-in-cheek statement (quoting, in fact, the (English) _Monty Python's Holy Grail_) to a joke that Catweasel started. Here's the response I sent to Becca. >Please accept my apologies if I offended you. While I can't say >I'm a true Wiccan because I have not followed any of the rites >of initiation, I have the greatest respect for the traditions >and honor involved. I also have had, back in my family line, >an aunt who was burned as a witch. I understand the gravity and >betrayal the Witch Hunts forced on the herbalists and older women of the time. > >I meant the line only in jest. > >jenn And so, I say again to you and everyone in this list. If I offended any of you, please understand that it was only a joke. As you get to know me better, and perhaps my occasionally droll humor, you will know that no kind of malice was intended. I joined this list because I am a feminist and ardent SF reader/writer, and hope that I haven't troubled the waters too much with my entry. Sincerely, Jenn -- {jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] {generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] {athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] {http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:08:58 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-11 05:54:52 EST, Gdbassham wrote: > << Queens in fairy tales are sexual and powerful. And, it seems to me, > invariably evil. A king may be good or bad, but if a queen is present in > the > story, she's wicked. > > Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which > the > queen is good or at least neutral? >> > > I can only think of dead queens--like Snow White's mother. > > Although now that I think about it, I can't remember a king in a fairy tale > who was > neither evil nor ineffectual. > > -- Gayla > And Becca Stoler wrote: > >Sleeping Beauty. Her mother just hangs back with her dad while the fairies > >take Aurora off into the forest for 16 years. (a note: Prince Phillip's > >mom is dead) > > > >I can't think of other Disney movies -- Cinderella is the only other > >princess one that comes to mind. >I know it isn't a princess, but Dumbo had a mother, who tried to protect him, >and was locked up for it... Somebody else mentioned that Disney really changes the stories of fairy tales, and the recently re-released _The_Little_Mermaid_ fits both as an example of a story (at least the movie version, I can't remember many of the details about the original story) about a princess in which the queen (mother) is missing (I presume dead, but I don't think it ever really says), and where the Disney version is very different from the fairy tale. VERY different. If you can find episodes of Faerie Tale Theater at your local video rental store, they do a much better job of telling the original story. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:17:24 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Strong women books Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-11 18:43:36 EST, Jenny Rankine wrote: > I thought you'd be swamped with suggestions, Cat, but it didn't seem like > it so here are a few of mine. > Robin McKinley's two related novels The Blue Sword and The Hero and The > Crown about young women growing up and becoming heroes Oooh, I forgot about those. I knew I knew more, Cat, but I couldn't think of them when I made my few suggestions. Yes, definitely these two - The Hero and The Crown was one of the first sf/fantasy books I ever read, and part of why I got hooked. I'm currently on my second copy, because I read the first one to "death". :) Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:32:52 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BJBenesch wrote: > If you can > find episodes of Faerie Tale Theater at your local video rental store, > they do > a much better job of telling the original story. I can second that. While I enjoy Disney (okay, I'll admit that _Hunchback_ and _Pocahontas_ were beyond disappointing), Shelley Duvall's _Faerie Tale Theatre_ was spectaular. I never saw their version of _The Little Mermaid_, but I own _Aladdin and His Wonderful Lamp_ (early material by Tim Burton) and am still looking for the video of the Mary Steenbergen and Malcolm MacDowell (they were still married at the time) _Little Red Riding Hood_... Speaking of Ms. Hood, and farie tales in general, does anyone remember the film version of _In the Company of Wolves_ (with Angela Lansbury, I believe)? If I remember correctly, it is based off of an Angela Carter story of the same name from an anthology called _The Bloody Chamber_, and it was this movie (though I had heard of Tanith Lee's _Red as Blood or Tales from the Sisters Grimmer_ at the point I saw the movie) that convinced me that fairy tales weren't for children but for the adults reading the stories to the children (of course, I later read the unedited Brothers Grimm..."Cinderella" was the hardest one for me to take, esp. when the stepsisters cut off various portions of their feet in order to fit into the glass slipper). - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:32:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cat Farrar Subject: Re: Strong women books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to everyone who sent me suggestions on Strong Women Books. I've filed them all away and hope to start reading soon. I'm hoping they will give me an emotional boost. I had high hopes for the most recent Alien film (Resurrection) but found it very disappoiting. There were some new and innovative special effects but the costumes and sets I found "tiring" as I've seen too much of that look with past Alien films. And as far as the sexism in the film, I'm way over that. Seems like there will be a whole bunch of new S/F releases at the movie theatres come this Christmas. We can only hope that our souls will be lifted to new hights. Cat Farrar cat@cfmc.com ~Cat Farrar ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced." ~Martha McCaughey Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:44:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses In-Reply-To: <8d3b296e.348f8033@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, AnnyMiddon wrote: (snip) > Or is this too sweeping a generalization? Are there fairy tales in which the > queen is good or at least neutral? In *The Goose Girl* the Queen is a protective and loving figure who gives her daughter a talking horse and a handkerchief with three drops of her own blood that aid her in her adventures (in the few versions of this story that I have read the handkerchief acts as a protective amulet). Most of the positive mother figures in fairy tales are not royal. In *Snow White and Rose Red* the mother isn't exactly of noble birth and works to support herself and her daughters. She is wise and kind hearted and teaches her daughters good values that help them make decisions that eventually lead them to a happy ending. There are a lot of powerful female figures in fairy tales if you go beyond the usual *Snow White* and *Cinderella* stories. It's sad that the most popular fairy tales are the ones that feature the most helpless and least interesting "heroines". *Snow White* is my least favorite character. In some of the older versions of the story, she is as dumb as a brick. She is repeatedly warned against danger and walks right into it every time. Ugh! > Anny Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:19:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses These are more in the form of questions than observations. When looking at the role of females in fairy tales: 1. Is it a mistake to look at fairy tale people as characters in the modern sense, with our modern understanding of motivation and choice, as opposed to figures, or even symbolic figures? 2. Because most fairy tales were transcribed in the Victorian age or later, aren't the versions we see necessarily filtered through the sensibility of the time of their transcription (just as Disney did later)? David Christenson - Minneapolis - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:16:45 +0000 Reply-To: susan.courtney@virgin.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Courtney Subject: Wow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jenn, Part of me knew you were joking and thought the whole exchange very funny. (Catweasel started this, after all.) Another (still working out my personal anger part) couldn't resist grinding my axe. Sorry for the sense of humour failure. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:53:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sc Subject: Re: Antonia's Line/Marleen Gorris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michelle Bernard wrote: > > Gorris' did another movie (well, more than one) that I have seen and > would recommend: _A Question of Silence_ in English (or direct > tranlation, the Silence around Christine M.). It may not quite be SF, > but it was definately surreal and when we watched it in class, it had > the same reactions (men disliked it because of the violence or seeming And yet, you never actually see the gallons of blood, gore and mutilation that are so prevalent in many other films, just the looks of intense concentration on the womens' faces as they commit the act of violence. Perhaps that was what was so disconcerting for the men in your class. Cheers SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:52:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: someone looking for angela carter recordings Comments: To: D'Aria , feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have no idea if anyone on this list might be able to help this person but thought I'd give it a try. Laura Q / list-mistress ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 14:59:01 +0100 From: D'Aria To: lquilter@igc.apc.org Subject: HELP!!! I am an Italian student at University of Bergamo; I am writing my graduation thesis about ANGELA CARTER's Radio Play. Do you know whether someone possesses these FIVE plays' recordings, broadcast from 1976 to 1984 and, if so,how I could buy them? Suggestions and information are welcomed. Thank you. davdar@mbox.vol.it ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:52:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Comments: To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" In-Reply-To: <34909442.827F78DD@geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > > > If you can > > find episodes of Faerie Tale Theater at your local video rental store, > > they do > > a much better job of telling the original story. Or if you're home in the late afternoon and can get used to the idea of half-hour retellings starring a Jack Russell terrier, try WISHBONE on PBS. I started watching when someone on the Phantom listsaid he made a better Raoul than many she'd seen on the stage. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu "Wanted, one ghost. Experience and good character required. Ability to ing tenor an advantage. Apply Paris Opera before New Years, 1882." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:56:56 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanna Goltzman Subject: Fairy Tales Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Speaking of Fairy Tales, A.S. Byatt has a wonderful one (one of many wonderful ones by her) called "The Story of the Eldest Princess" that's printed in _The Year's Best Fantasy and Horror Sixth Annual Collection_ (Ed. Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling). The princess of the title knows she's stuck in a story and goes against what's expected of her. Also, poet Anne Sexton rewrote about 15 fairy tales and published them in a volume called _Transformations_. She gives horriffic, sexual twists to the diluted tales of today and tells them with biting wit. Enjoy! Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:26:47 -0500 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Geoffrey Sperl Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debra Euler wrote: > In my recollection, it's an enjoyable but flawed movie. Definitely > worth a rental, however. Agreed. I saw it as a rental, so I wasn't too upset. I was also, at that time, on the run of the mill "teenage-boy-horror-flix-fix" and I think I rented everything from _The Exorcist_ to _Killer Klowns from Outer Space_. _In the Company of Wolves_ made it in there somewhere, and I was gleefully happy with making a blind rental of it... > My favorite story from "The Bloody Chamber" > is the Bluebeard tale where the foolish young bride's mother, riding > astride with her hair unbound , comes to rescue her daughter from her > gilded prison. Oh, that sounds good...I'm going to have break down and buy the Carter one day... > And just out in video stores is an interesting big-budget new version > of "Snow White," originally shown on Showtime last summer, with > Sigourney Weaver as the "evil stepmother" and Sam Neill as the > father. I've seen bits and pieces of this on cable, and keep kicking myself for not keeping my eyes open for it. The title can be a mess - it has three: "Snow White: A Tale of Terror" (which is the title I keep seeing on cable), "The Grimm Brothers' Snow White" (supposedly the 'official' title) and "Snow White in the Black Forest." Possible spoliers. I've enjoyed what I've seen, and while I agree that Claudia (Weaver's character) tries to be nice to Lili (Snow White Lili is the full name), she does it in a way that attempts to supplant Lili's mother - which is where, I think, Lili becomes rather obnoxious. Claudia believes that she has is, completely, queen now, and that makes her think of herself as Lili's "new" mother. I agree that Lili overreacts, and probably drives her stepmother (amongst other things - like that crazy mirror and the stillbirth) to the brink...now if I can ever see it in its entirety, I'd be a happy camper. - Geoffrey -- Why did the chicken cross the road? Dan Quayle: "Ite sawe ae potatoe" http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:13:27 -0000 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stacey Holbrook wrote: > There are a lot of powerful female figures in fairy tales if you go beyond > the usual *Snow White* and *Cinderella* stories. It's sad that the most > popular fairy tales are the ones that feature the most helpless and least > interesting "heroines". *Snow White* is my least favorite character. In > some of the older versions of the story, she is as dumb as a brick. She is > repeatedly warned against danger and walks right into it every time. Ugh! Have you read Sheri Tepper's _Beauty_ which includes retellings of a number of canonical fairy tales, including Sleeping Beauty and Snow White? Can't summon up the brainpower to say much that is useful about the book, but the dumb as a brick description rang a bell. _Beauty_ is well worth a read. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:52:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Strong women books Just to mention Segnbora (Berend) from Diane Duane's "Door Into Fire/Shadow/Sunset'; and Queen Eftigan from the same. Also many of the "Amazons" from the Darkover series. (Of course, the Door isn't a fairytale, but there's a GOOD queen for you!) > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:29:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Re: someone looking for angela carter recordings Comments: To: D'Aria In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is from the Ladyslipper blurb. I have no connection to them whatsoever. (although I'd really like to. They have some cool stuff!) "From Mary Black to Miriam Makeba; Hildegard von Bingen to Holly Near; Enya to Ella Fitzgerald; and Anonymous 4 to Zap Mama, the Ladyslipper Music Catalog is the world's most comprehensive resource for CD's and cassettes by women. In it you'll find a wealth of information on artists and their recordings, in every category you can think of: folk, rock, blues, jazz, classical, alternative, feminist, gay/lesbian, world, spirituality/new age, Native American, African Heritage, Jewish, holiday, children's, comedy, men's music, and more! Plus, Ladyslipper Music carries a multitude of videos, songbooks and music-related books. Over 1700 titles (many hard-to-find), all fully annotated, with entertaining and informative descriptions. And don't forget to visit Ladyslipper's website at http://www.ladyslipper.org. While there you can find out what the music sounds like before you buy it by listening to over 1500 sound clips, and you can read the album descriptions, join an e-mail list to receive information on New Releases, and order music online. Order your FREE catalog today!" At 07:52 AM 12/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >I have no idea if anyone on this list might be able to help this person >but thought I'd give it a try. > >Laura Q / list-mistress > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 14:59:01 +0100 >From: D'Aria >To: lquilter@igc.apc.org >Subject: HELP!!! > >I am an Italian student at University of Bergamo; >I am writing my graduation thesis about ANGELA CARTER's Radio Play. >Do you know whether someone possesses these FIVE plays' recordings, >broadcast from 1976 to 1984 and, if so,how I could buy them? >Suggestions and information are welcomed. >Thank you. > >davdar@mbox.vol.it > -- {jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] {generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] {athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] {http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:02:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Comments: To: Joan Haran In-Reply-To: <199712122321.RAA20392@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Joan Haran wrote: (snip) > Have you read Sheri Tepper's _Beauty_ which includes retellings of a number > of canonical fairy tales, including Sleeping Beauty and Snow White? Can't > summon up the brainpower to say much that is useful about the book, but the > dumb as a brick description rang a bell. Yes, I've read it and was vaguely disappointed but I can't really put my finger on exactly why. I think it may be because she was trying to weave too many threads from too many fairy tales into the story of Sleeping Beauty. I really couldn't figure out what she was trying to do. It was interesting reading, though, because I love Tepper's writing style and I was willing to go along for the ride. Tepper's slant on the Snow White story is one of the few scenes that really stand out in my mind. Of all the many re-tellings of this story that I have read and heard, Sheri Tepper is the -only- story teller that I know of who blatantly portrays Snow White as too stupid to live and in a humorous way too. Most other writers don't see the humor in a girl who manages to get herself killed three times because she was too dumb to keep her door locked against strangers even after repeated warnings from the dwarfs and repeated assassination attempts by the Queen. > _Beauty_ is well worth a read. I recommend it to fans of Sheri Tepper and fairy tales but I'm not so sure others would like it. > Joan > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:55:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lorry B. Bond" Subject: Re: A Novel idea In-Reply-To: <003101bd0658$4611c3e0$72745181@raven.tcs.tulane.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:14 AM 12/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >I personally do not like all this talk about burning witches. > >Becca I second your dislike. Witches have gotten a bum rap over the years, and have been sorely misunderstood. We're simply lovers of the Earth, and know how to use her resources. Pure and simple. No evil in our intentions. Lorry >-----Original Message----- >From: jenn mottram >To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu >Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 10:47 AM >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] A Novel idea > > >>At 11:48 AM 12/11/97 GMT, you wrote: >>>Anny, I shall be spending what little time I have spare in thinking up >>>suitable punishments. Shooting? Too quick. Boiling in oil? I haven't got >>>a big enough cauldron. Burning at the stake? I would need proof that you >>>are a witch. Can anyone help on that score? Maybe I should just force >>>you to read the finished novel! >> >>Technically, the proof that she's a witch is to throw her in the water. >>If she floats, then she's made of wood! no.... she's a witch! >> >>Then, proven to be a witch, she can righteously be burned at the stake. >> >>jenn >> >> >> >>-- >>{jenn mottram} [http://www.infinite-edge.com/~infedge] >>{generally poetry} [ Infinite Edge Magazine] >>{athena(at)geocities.com} [Pro SF, Fantasy, Horror] >>{http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} [Try It.] >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:39:34 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I've enjoyed taking my daughter to see the Disney movies and giving her books to read, I too have grown tired of the portrayal of female characters in a lot of our fairy tales. It is true that some of the older versions weren't so dismissive. But in our present culture, which is what our children grow up with, it really becomes discouraging. You've got your young, spunky heroine with the Frederick's of Holywood outfit, a handsome, kindly father, and no mother. If it is a Disney movie, she will almost certainly have a few kindly, quirky male friends. Rarely any female friends (though there may be rivals, "ugly" stepsisters, or fade-into-the-background girls her own age). If an older woman appears in the tale, she is usually either ineffectual or evil. Our children's tales are full of evil stepmothers, cruel witches, Ursula the Squids (or whatever she was), and so on. There are exceptions. In the Disney version of Pocohontas, Poco does have a best friend who acts in what she sees as Poco's best interest. Also Poco doesn't marry the hero in the end (though I suspect that may in part be due to the fact that if they bent history any farther in the Disney version, it would have broken. If I remember correctly, the real Poco was just a kid when she met Smith, and married someone completely different, going to England to live with him). Not that I have any objection to a good love story; I'm a sucker for them. And contrary to many, I do like the handsome prince being the reward for the heroine. Why shouldn't the girl get a gorgeous charming guy? We fill up our stories with male characters winning beauteous, loving women but criticize stories where the girl wins the loving hunk. What bothers me is when the whole reason for the heroine's existence becomes the hero. I mean, for crying out loud, Snow White sleeps and sweeps her way through life. So does Sleeping Beauty. Mr. Charming comes along, kisses them, and they are rescued. How exciting. I think Disney is getting better, at least with the portrayal of the heroine. One Disney version I was more impressed with was Beauty and the Beast. For one thing, Belle likes to read and does it despite criticism from her peers. For another, she rescues her Dad. Also, Mrs. Teapot, one of the "quirky" side-kick friends, is an older woman and a loving mother to Chip, her son. In Pocohontas, the daughter is the one with the wisdom that eventually saves her people. But where is Belle's mother? Where is the Little Mermaid's mother? Where is Poco's mother? Where is Jasmine's mother? Where is Dorthy's mother? Rapunzel's mother? Cinderella's mother? This isn't to say that positive female characters don't appear in our fairy tales. Also, often when I have this conversation with people, someone gives counter examples of male villains and says, "Really, there are just as many as there are evil-older-woman types." The problem is the percentages. Suppose we have 100 characters in several fairy tales, with 5 evil guys and 5 evil gals. The numbers are equal. But chances are there will be something like 80 male characters total and 20 female characters, and at least half those female characters will be passive, ineffectual, jealous, or whatever. What does that leave? Let's say 70 positive male characters and 10 positive female characters. So 50% of the women in the stories are evil, with many of the other female characters as girls being rescued. For male characters, we might have on the order of 14% positive characters. The percentages get even more discouraging when you look at the ages of the male and female characters. What message does that give our kids? The beauty=good and ugly=bad thing also discourages me. Had the Hunchback of ND been female instead of male, would she have been portrayed in such a sympathetic manner? We have a lot of stories where the heroine is beautiful and the evil witch is either ugly or beautiful. We also have stories where the bad guy is handsome. But how many stories do we have where the heroine is plain and the hero is gorgeous? Best regards Catherine http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:42:45 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: someone looking for angela carter recordings Comments: cc: davdar@mbox.vol.it I would suggest that even if these are not commercially available (try the BBC Shop, 41 Langham Place, London W1) an approach to the BBC archives might be productive. I don't have the address to hand but it should be in Foster and Sheppard's 'British Archives' (I think it is in Reading) or may even, by now, have a website... If they don't have the actual recordings they may have scripts or transcripts. If you do have problems finding the address let me know and next time I have access to Br Arch I'll look it up. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Laura Quilter Sent: 12 December 1997 15:52 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] someone looking for angela carter recordings I have no idea if anyone on this list might be able to help this person but thought I'd give it a try. Laura Q / list-mistress ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 14:59:01 +0100 From: D'Aria To: lquilter@igc.apc.org Subject: HELP!!! I am an Italian student at University of Bergamo; I am writing my graduation thesis about ANGELA CARTER's Radio Play. Do you know whether someone possesses these FIVE plays' recordings, broadcast from 1976 to 1984 and, if so,how I could buy them? Suggestions and information are welcomed. Thank you. davdar@mbox.vol.it ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:04:20 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: A Novel idea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lorry B. Bond wrote: > At 11:14 AM 12/11/97 -0600, you wrote: > >I personally do not like all this talk about burning witches. > > > >Becca > > I second your dislike. Witches have gotten a bum rap over the years, > and > have been sorely misunderstood. We're simply lovers of the Earth, and > know > how to use her resources. Pure and simple. No evil in our > intentions. > I have a question: does anyone know the film Jenn's quotes come from? I know the film quite well, and you're slicing away at an insult that *isn't* there...if anything, the film insults the insipidness of the men and villagers (mostly men) who cried out for the burning of witches... Just my two cents... - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:00:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Comments: To: Catherine Asaro In-Reply-To: <3491AF12.3119@sff.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > But where is Belle's mother? Where is the Little Mermaid's mother? > Where is Poco's mother? Where is Jasmine's mother? Where is Dorthy's > mother? Rapunzel's mother? Cinderella's mother? > >Catherine Asaro Well, if you go back to the folklore originals, the grim truth (pun not entirely intended) is that she probably died in childbirth. This was the leading cause of death in married women prior to the mid-nineteenth century and it didn't matter whether they were poor women or nobility. Which is why their are so many kings without queens in fairytales. Which is also why there are so many wicked stepmothers. A man who lived until 45 had better than even odds of long outliving his wife, remarrying at least once, and having children by the second (and third wife). In a poor family, a woman faced with the task of having to take care of ten kids, only half of them hers, would be more likely than not to treat her own children better than her stepchildren. Child abandonment and infanticide were quite common in the middle ages. Even the Church tended to turn a blind eye to these practices in many cases. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:58:50 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Anyone interested in starting a book group? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know, it's so Oprah. But I've always been interested in book groups -- you know, everyone reads the same book and then gets together to discuss it. I don't have to tell you, though, about the odds of finding a feminist sf/fantasy book group in your town. And I have so little time for recreational reading, I hate to "waste" it on other kinds of books. This list is great for discussing books, but it seems that other than the big name authors (e.g. Le Guin) there isn't much of a critical mass interested in discussing a book at a particular time. So I thought we could nominate some books and schedule dates for their discussion. Perhaps this could happen in time for holiday reading? I have no agenda for which books to include. It'd be great if it were one I have but haven't read yet, of course! And it ought to be something still available in stores (or libraries) for those of us who don't yet have copies. We could perhaps alternate SF and Fantasy. And how long do you think discussion would go on between books - should we do one per month? Anybody care to suggest some structure? Jennifer -- Jennifer Krauel Director of Product Marketing jkrauel@actioneer.com 415.536.0715 fax 415.882.4372 http://www.actioneer.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ++ Actioneering: the art and science of getting it done ++ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:11:48 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: A Novel idea In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971211185920.006a8950@mail.geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 11/12/97 23:59:20 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful business, I observed jenn mottram , hereinafter referrded as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > I must have inadvertently stepped on a lot of toes with what I thought was > merely a tongue-in-cheek statement (quoting, in fact, the (English) _Monty > Python's Holy Grail_) to a joke that Catweasel started. I did not! It started hundreds of years before I was born. (sniff) S'not fair. (sniff sniff) Everbody allus blames me. (sniff) I jus wanned t'burn (sob) one witch. (exit hanging hanging head and moaning) Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:08:12 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Quiltrek Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Comments: To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-13 22:12:36 EST, jkrauel@actioneer.com writes: << But I've always been interested in book groups -- you know, everyone reads the same book and then gets together to discuss it. I don't have to tell you, though, about the odds of finding a feminist sf/fantasy book group in your town. And I have so little time for recreational reading, I hate to "waste" it on other kinds of books. >> Delurking because this sounds really exciting. I lack the experience necessary to even suggest structure, but one book a month sounds about right. (Until school starts again anyway : } ). If we could find a common source (such as one online) that might broaden our choices over those which are certainly available in libraries--although library access would give chances to those who can't or choose not to purchase books. Anyone else this excited about this idea? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:05:46 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-13 10:27:46 EST, Catherine Asaro wrote: > The beauty=good and ugly=bad thing also discourages me. Had the > Hunchback of ND been female instead of male, would she have been > portrayed in such a sympathetic manner? Another thing I have found disturbing is that in a lot of Disney's (and other company's) live-action movies directed at kids, there is a heavy-set boy who at the end of the movie finds a thing, "pretty" girl who likes him, but never (well, from what I've seen) is there a heavy-set girl who is anything other than an over-eager "geek" who is someone for the boys to run away screaming from. I had a few hopeful delusions about Ricki Lake, in her pre-talk show days, but alas, she turned away from movies and to talk shows, and lost a lot of weight to do it. Speaking of which - while _Exit_to_Eden_ wasn't a great movie (it was very silly in parts, and I've heard it torn apart for a lot of other reasons as well, although I enjoyed it - I can't pick why, but I did. Sue me. :-) ), it's worth a $1 rental just to see Rosie O'Donnell (IMO an attractive, good actress who happens to be heavy set) treated as just as sexual a person as Dana Delany (Well, not Dana Delany, as her main function in a very sex- oriented movie is to be sexual, but definitely Rosie holds her own.). > We have a lot of stories where the heroine is beautiful and the evil > witch is either ugly or beautiful. We also have stories where the bad > guy is handsome. But how many stories do we have where the heroine is > plain and the hero is gorgeous? I got the feeling that Belle (from Beauty and the Beast - for the non- moviegoers out there) was supposed to be a "plainer" Disney heroine, and she was, but she still managed to be "beautiful" when it counted. And another thing I have found disturbing (actually my fiance pointed this one out) - the waists on the Disney heroines have gotten smaller over the years. We really don't need to have young girls starting to hate their bodies even _younger_ than we do already. In (wary) support of Disney - the females in The Lion King (while not human, they were meant to be just as "role model-ish") were all depicted as strong. While I'm trying not to open the "Lion King" can of worms, as I do agree that they should have watched their symbolism more closely, at least they didn't make lionesses _weak_. That would have been too much, even for Disney. Thanks for listening :) Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:13:56 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-13 22:29:30 EST, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I know, it's so Oprah. But I've always been interested in book groups > -- you know, everyone reads the same book and then gets together to > discuss it. I don't have to tell you, though, about the odds of finding > a feminist sf/fantasy book group in your town. And I have so little > time for recreational reading, I hate to "waste" it on other kinds of > books. > > This list is great for discussing books, but it seems that other than > the big name authors (e.g. Le Guin) there isn't much of a critical mass > interested in discussing a book at a particular time. So I thought we > could nominate some books and schedule dates for their discussion. > Perhaps this could happen in time for holiday reading? > > I have no agenda for which books to include. It'd be great if it were > one I have but haven't read yet, of course! And it ought to be > something still available in stores (or libraries) for those of us who > don't yet have copies. We could perhaps alternate SF and Fantasy. And > how long do you think discussion would go on between books - should we > do one per month? Anybody care to suggest some structure? > > Jennifer I think it's a great idea. I would definitely be interested, and I think the book-a-month schedule would work pretty well. A month is usually enough time for even the busiest of us to read a book and have time to digest and discuss it. (At least, I think so....?) And alternating SF and Fantasy is a good idea - or we could put out a list of like 2-3 books to be discussed during the month, so if people only have time to read one, they can look at the backs of books and see which on they're more likely to be interested in, and the folks who have more time on their hands could read all three. And then it would just be a case of looking at subject lines to see which book a person was discussing. Again, Jennifer, I think it's a great idea!! I hope there's a lot of response to this one. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:46:58 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: A Novel Idea Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-12-13 12:30:13 EST, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > Lorry B. Bond wrote: > > > At 11:14 AM 12/11/97 -0600, you wrote: > > >I personally do not like all this talk about burning witches. > > > > > >Becca > > > > I second your dislike. Witches have gotten a bum rap over the years, > > and > > have been sorely misunderstood. We're simply lovers of the Earth, and > > know > > how to use her resources. Pure and simple. No evil in our > > intentions. > > > > I have a question: does anyone know the film Jenn's quotes come from? I > know the film quite well, and you're slicing away at an insult that > *isn't* there...if anything, the film insults the insipidness of the men > and villagers (mostly men) who cried out for the burning of witches... > > Just my two cents... > > - Geoffrey Yes, it was "Monty Python and the Quest (Search??) for the Holy Grail" or something to that effect. And the full quote goes something like this (I'm paraphrasing, so I may have some of the words wrong, but this should give folks an idea, at least): Knight: And how do we know she's a witch?? Crowd: Look at her nose! Look at her hat! "Witch": (mumble) Knight: What's that? "Witch": (lifting up fake nose) This isn't my nose. It's a false one. Knight: Yes, well, how did it get there? "Witch": They put it on me. Knight: Ah, yes, I see. And the hat? "Witch": They put that on me as well. Man 1: She turned me into a newt! Knight: A newt?? Man 1: (lamely) Well, I got better. Knight: So what do we have to do to determine if she is, indeed, a witch? Crowd: Burn her!! Knight: No, no. Before we burn her, we have to be sure she is a witch. Crowd: (muttering restlessly) Knight: All right - how do we tell if she is a witch? Man 2: Uh..... if she floats? Knight: Exactly!! And what else floats in water? Crowd: (mutters restlessly again) Man 2: Uh... wood? Man 3: Really small rocks!! Knight: Right!! So what does this mean? Man 2: She must be made of wood? Knight: Right!! And how do we tell if she's made of wood? Crowd: Burn her!! Burn her!! Knight: No, no. There's another way. Now, what else floats in water? Man 3: Uh.... a duck? Knight: Exactly!! So what does that mean? Man 3: We have to see if she weighs as much as a duck?? Knight: Right!! So they trundle the "witch" off to a scale where they put her on one side and a duck on the other, and kind of "ignore" the chunks of rock and people leaning on the duck's side to make sure she weighs less than the duck. Well, now that I look at it, I think I've missed a lot of the actual points of the scene (i.e., I'm sure I've missed some lines, and I know I've got some of it out of order), but that's the basics of how it goes, and that does give justice to the gist of it anyway. The bit about the man who got turned into a newt and got better is a direct quote, however. It's something that got quoted a lot in my dorm in college, so I'm sure of that one. I hope this helps. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:07:24 -0400 Reply-To: gamgee@geocities.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Organization: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quiltrek wrote: > jkrauel@actioneer.com writes: > > << But I've always been interested in book groups -- you know, > everyone reads > the same book and then gets together to discuss it.>> > > Delurking because this sounds really exciting. I lack the experience > necessary > to even suggest structure, but one book a month sounds about right. > (Until > school starts again anyway : } ). If we could find a common source > (such as > one online) that might broaden our choices over those which are > certainly > available in libraries--although library access would give chances to > those > who can't or choose not to purchase books. > Anyone else this excited about this idea? Actually, I can suggest a structure running off of a book group I'm involved with at the University of Michigan (the web page, if you want to look at it, is http://www-personal.umich.edu/~esrabkin/fsftsched.html - please note that the listserv that is listed there isn't a general discussion one but merely one used for scheduling, etc.). My suggestions would be: 1) We would need an organizer - someone to post the reading schedule on their web page, open up discussion on the given day, etc. 2) One book a month. Set a day, for example: the third Monday of each month, for the book to be read by. 3) Those who are interested would have to have a list, 5 or 6 books long, of suggestions. Then the group could vote on the suggestions and the top 6 or so books would be on the schedule for the next 6 months. 4) Openess: we would have to be willing to read not only things we've read before, but also things that don't fall within the realm of "books," such as sequential art (or comic books, if you will). 5) This may grow rather large, and could effectively dominate the list during the time the book is discussed. If that happens, we should see whereelse we can take the discussion... - Geoffrey -- "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:23:22 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cat Farrar Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good idea! How about let's start with Polymorgph? New book and interesting concept. I'm all for gender blasting! Cat Farrar At 02:13 AM 12/14/97 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-12-13 22:29:30 EST, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > >> I know, it's so Oprah. But I've always been interested in book groups >> -- you know, everyone reads the same book and then gets together to >> discuss it. I don't have to tell you, though, about the odds of finding >> a feminist sf/fantasy book group in your town. And I have so little >> time for recreational reading, I hate to "waste" it on other kinds of >> books. >> >> This list is great for discussing books, but it seems that other than >> the big name authors (e.g. Le Guin) there isn't much of a critical mass >> interested in discussing a book at a particular time. So I thought we >> could nominate some books and schedule dates for their discussion. >> Perhaps this could happen in time for holiday reading? >> >> I have no agenda for which books to include. It'd be great if it were >> one I have but haven't read yet, of course! And it ought to be >> something still available in stores (or libraries) for those of us who >> don't yet have copies. We could perhaps alternate SF and Fantasy. And >> how long do you think discussion would go on between books - should we >> do one per month? Anybody care to suggest some structure? >> >> Jennifer > >I think it's a great idea. I would definitely be interested, and I think the >book-a-month schedule would work pretty well. A month is usually enough time >for even the busiest of us to read a book and have time to digest and discuss >it. (At least, I think so....?) And alternating SF and Fantasy is a good >idea - or we could put out a list of like 2-3 books to be discussed during the >month, so if people only have time to read one, they can look at the backs of >books and see which on they're more likely to be interested in, and the folks >who have more time on their hands could read all three. And then it would >just be a case of looking at subject lines to see which book a person was >discussing. > >Again, Jennifer, I think it's a great idea!! I hope there's a lot of response >to this one. > >Barbara Benesch >BJBenesch@aol.com > > ~Cat Farrar ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced." ~Martha McCaughey Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:33:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cat Farrar Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Barbra, I'm totally supportive of your point of view. I'm real tired of females struggling to understand life/world issues and all becomes "clear" once a male comes into the picture. Disney completely supports this idea. An old story that keeps replaying itself. Bad news. Cat Farrar At 02:05 AM 12/14/97 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-12-13 10:27:46 EST, Catherine Asaro wrote: > >> The beauty=good and ugly=bad thing also discourages me. Had the >> Hunchback of ND been female instead of male, would she have been >> portrayed in such a sympathetic manner? > >Another thing I have found disturbing is that in a lot of Disney's (and other >company's) live-action movies directed at kids, there is a heavy-set boy who >at the end of the movie finds a thing, "pretty" girl who likes him, but never >(well, from what I've seen) is there a heavy-set girl who is anything other >than an over-eager "geek" who is someone for the boys to run away screaming >from. > >I had a few hopeful delusions about Ricki Lake, in her pre-talk show days, but >alas, she turned away from movies and to talk shows, and lost a lot of weight >to do it. Speaking of which - while _Exit_to_Eden_ wasn't a great movie (it >was very silly in parts, and I've heard it torn apart for a lot of other >reasons as well, although I enjoyed it - I can't pick why, but I did. Sue me. >:-) ), it's worth a $1 rental just to see Rosie O'Donnell (IMO an attractive, >good actress who happens to be heavy set) treated as just as sexual a person >as Dana Delany (Well, not Dana Delany, as her main function in a very sex- >oriented movie is to be sexual, but definitely Rosie holds her own.). > >> We have a lot of stories where the heroine is beautiful and the evil >> witch is either ugly or beautiful. We also have stories where the bad >> guy is handsome. But how many stories do we have where the heroine is >> plain and the hero is gorgeous? > >I got the feeling that Belle (from Beauty and the Beast - for the non- >moviegoers out there) was supposed to be a "plainer" Disney heroine, and she >was, but she still managed to be "beautiful" when it counted. And another >thing I have found disturbing (actually my fiance pointed this one out) - the >waists on the Disney heroines have gotten smaller over the years. We really >don't need to have young girls starting to hate their bodies even _younger_ >than we do already. > >In (wary) support of Disney - the females in The Lion King (while not human, >they were meant to be just as "role model-ish") were all depicted as strong. >While I'm trying not to open the "Lion King" can of worms, as I do agree that >they should have watched their symbolism more closely, at least they didn't >make lionesses _weak_. That would have been too much, even for Disney. > >Thanks for listening :) > >Barbara Benesch >BJBenesch@aol.com > > ~Cat Farrar ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced." ~Martha McCaughey Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:53:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dawn Anderson Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds like a great idea, if you do start one count me in. :) Dawn http://members.aol.com/Keira37/keira37.html -----Original Message----- From: Quiltrek To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Saturday, December 13, 1997 11:20 PM Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? >In a message dated 97-12-13 22:12:36 EST, jkrauel@actioneer.com writes: > ><< But I've always been interested in book groups -- you know, everyone reads the same book and then gets together to discuss it ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:51:50 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This sounds like a really fun idea. I'd be interested too! Just what I need to get my brain working. Monica Norman >>In a message dated 97-12-13 22:12:36 EST, jkrauel@actioneer.com writes: >> >><< But I've always been interested in book groups -- you know, everyone >reads the same book and then gets together to discuss it ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:59:35 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm definitely interested; but not enthusiastic about graphic novels or comics. In addition to sf and fantasy, utopian fiction could be a category. What about critical essays on what we read? Include them in a followup meeting, or at least make a bibliography available for those interested? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:48:02 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BzRvueNews Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Coming out of lurkdom.... It is super easy to start a group on AOL if you are an AOL subscriber. If you're looking at something centralized on the web how will it be handled? Will there be an associated site? Listserv? Chat? Buzzy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:30:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Honor Wallace Subject: Re: [FSFFU] Strong women books MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="Default"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Apologies if someone has already suggested this (I'm catching up on about a week's worth of messages), but Nicole Griffith's _Ammonite_ features a main character who (and I quote) has "an ability to spend large periods of time alone, an innate belief in herself, a prodigious linguistic talent, and superb physical fittness." Moreover, she's not the only strong woman in the book. Honor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:40:36 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Honor Wallace Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="Default"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Add my vote! Honor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:39:27 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Honor Wallace Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses In-Reply-To: <199712122321.RAA20392@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="Default"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit When I was young, I read a book called _Beauty_ (NOT the Tepper book) which was novel-length retelling of "Beauty and the Beast." As I recall, it was *wonderful*. Unfortunately, I can't remember the author. Has anyone else read this? "Beauty" is an ironic nickname for the main character, who though intelligent, skilled and kind, doesn't fit conventional notions of beauty. Interestingly, her sisters are _not_ portrayed as evil or jealous--they are beautiful, sweet women whose only flaw is that they are not quite as sensible as their youngest sister. Is this feminist? I don't know. I read the book long before I even really knew what feminism was (if I do now). But as a young girl, I felt it was a perfect way of setting the fairy tale straight. If anyone has read this, I would love to hear what you thought of it. Honor (which, btw, is the main character's real name---perhaps another reason why I enjoyed it!) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:50:32 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses >When I was young, I read a book called _Beauty_ (NOT the Tepper >book) which was novel-length retelling of "Beauty and the Beast." As I >recall, it was *wonderful*. Unfortunately, I can't remember the author. Robin McKinley Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.om ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:05:47 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NESchaadt Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Add me to the list and call me excited also. How about alternating SF and Fantasy with genre selection pre-1984 and post-1984 (years selected arbitrarily)? I'd like to read and discuss some older LeGuin and Andre Norton as well as newer books. One question for the listmistress, will a book club drag the FSFFU listserv? Will it inconvience people who do not want to participate?? NS nschaadt@txcc.net >jkrauel@actioneer.com writes: ><< But I've always been interested in book groups -- you know, everyone reads >the same book and then gets together to discuss it. >Quiltrek writes: >Delurking because this sounds really exciting. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:11:13 -1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? >From: Kmfriello >Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Anyone interested in starting a book group? >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >I'm definitely interested; but not enthusiastic about graphic novels or >comics. > >In addition to sf and fantasy, utopian fiction could be a category. What about >critical essays on what we read? Include them in a followup meeting, or at >least make a bibliography available for those interested? I'm currently reading THE SHATTERED RING: SCIENCE FICTION AND THE QUEST FOR MEANING by Lois and Stephen Rose. It's a religious look at general science fiction. Next on my list of things to read is MODERN SCIENCE FICTION: ITS MEANING AND ITS FUTURE, edited by Reginald Bretnor (expanded second edition), contain essays on sf by John W. Campbell, Jr., Anthony Boucher, L. Sprague De Camp, Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke, and Gerald Heard, among others. Gerald Heard wrote an essay called "Science Fiction, Morals, and Religion." Next on my list is PHILOSOPHERS LOOK AT SCIENCE FICTION edited by Nicholas Smith. I like reading sf/f more than literary criticism, but these books are fascinating. Anyone else have recommendations for literary criticism? In the main, I'd also recommend Clute and Nicholls ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION. I haven't got it front of me right now, but I believe it has articles on feminist sf/f. SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // CARPENTER _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< \\ _\\\_ _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< // /// \\\ \\ Cindy Smith \\\ \\ _///_ // _///_ // _///_ // cms@dragon.com <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Delay not your conversion Woe to craven hearts and drooping hands, to the LORD, to the sinner who treads a double path! put it not off Woe to the faint of heart who trust not, from day to day who therefore will have no shelter! Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 5:8 Woe to you who have lost hope! what will you do at the visitation of the LORD? Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 2:12-14 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:35:19 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Honor Wallace wrote: > When I was young, I read a book called _Beauty_ (NOT the Tepper book) which > was > novel-length retelling of "Beauty and the Beast." As I recall, it was > *wonderful*. > Unfortunately, I can't remember the author. Has anyone else read this? I have. I think it's Robin McKinley. Pat Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:50:20 +0000 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri & Bruce Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lesley Hall wrote: > > >When I was young, I read a book called _Beauty_ (NOT the Tepper >book) > which was novel-length retelling of "Beauty and the Beast." As I >recall, it > was *wonderful*. Unfortunately, I can't remember the author. > > Robin McKinley > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.om Do you mean Robin McKinley that wrote Deerskin, one of my favorite books? Wouldn^Òt Princess Lissar be considered a strong female figure? Deerskin also tackled incest like not too many books ever have, at least the ones I^Òve read. Terri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:52:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? In-Reply-To: <349385A6.E0515328@geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As a dissenting voice, I would like to chime in with a request to *not* have the book group take place on this listserv, although it might be nice to get the list of books people are reading...I simply can't handle the bandwidth this would generate Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 A conversation is a rare phenomenon... It is not a confrontation. It is not a debate. It is not an exam. It is questioning itself. It is a willingness to follow the question wherever it may go. --David Tracy _Plurality and Ambiguity_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:22:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? In-Reply-To: <009BEC09.73C98880.4@dragon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" By my count, I see 12 people who're interested. I can see the basis of Rudy's concern, and I suggest we set-up another site. As for it being on AOL - well, nothing against them, but I prefer not for varying reasons. Does anyone have access to making a new listserv, or Laura: can you? My university isn't the greatest about allowing students access to things of that nature, so I can't volunteer us. And, to address Kmfriello's concerns >I'm definitely interested; but not enthusiastic about graphic novels or >comics. I was merely saying that we have to be open to others making the suggestions - we just don't vote for something we don't want to read (and if it makes it to the list just don't bother reading it if you don't want to). Sequential art is becoming a major avenue of texts in universities ("Maus," "The Dark Knight Returns," and various "Sandman" pieces come to mind), and I do think Colleen Doran's "A Distant Soil" would work beautifully in a book list such as this (though I don't know if there are any graphic novels collecting various issues of the comic) >In addition to sf and fantasy, utopian fiction could be a category. What about >critical essays on what we read? Include them in a followup meeting, or at >least make a bibliography available for those interested? I think the category could spread across all of speculative fiction, particularly F, SF, and U. That may mean some horror slips in, but I consider horror to simply be a darker form of fantasy anyways. As for the essays: since a lot of us seem to still be in school, I think the latter suggestion of a bibliography would be best so we don't feel obligated to read more than one book a month - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:28:57 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops. I meant to send this to the list last night and sent it to Jennifer instead. (Sorry Jennifer!) I don't think discussion on the list would change much if there was a group of people reading the same work within the same month. Anyone could participate in discussions generated. Also, I'm certain there will still be discussions about other works of feminist sci-fi. I do agree that if it's done via this list serve, the same rules would apply (such as notification of spoilers and keeping bandwidth usage manageable by cutting original messages to pertinent sections when responding, etc.) Does the list mistress have any concerns? %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Sure! I'd be quite willing to participate. I've been looking for an online book club situation, but have not liked the reading lists of those I've found. I have no suggestion for structure at the moment. Your suggestion for one book per month sounds reasonable, as does switching between sci-fi and fantasy titles. Regarding the need to choose books which are still available, we could check online with Amazon.com for current availability; then those of us who are mobile can go to our favorite bookstores to purchase or order them, or look for them in the local library. Laura Quilter has provided a tentative list for those new to feminist sci-fi on her website at: http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/recommended.html She's also provided a link to winners of the James Tiptree, Jr. Award. Another good place to start. Another source for some titles is Laura's "New Releases" link. I suspect that someone (or more than one) would need to act as organizer, if only to be a center of information on the history, present and future. I think the idea of a book club environment is attractive to me because I've only read a dozen or so feminist sci-fi books, and they've already been discussed in depth by many of the existing participants. So, I think it's a good idea. Lindy Jennifer Krauel wrote: [Snip] > So I thought we > could nominate some books and schedule dates for their discussion. > Perhaps this could happen in time for holiday reading? [snip] > how long do you think discussion would go on between books - should we > do one per month? Anybody care to suggest some structure? -- "If I had my past life to live over, I'd make all the same mistakes, only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com/ Resources related to women, disabilities and literature ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:10:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becca Stoler Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Count me in! Becca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:33:48 -1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Count me in, btw. SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // CARPENTER _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< \\ _\\\_ _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< // /// \\\ \\ Cindy Smith \\\ \\ _///_ // _///_ // _///_ // cms@dragon.com <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Delay not your conversion Woe to craven hearts and drooping hands, to the LORD, to the sinner who treads a double path! put it not off Woe to the faint of heart who trust not, from day to day who therefore will have no shelter! Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 5:8 Woe to you who have lost hope! what will you do at the visitation of the LORD? Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 2:12-14 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: David Silver Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Count me in, please. David Silver ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:14:56 -0700 Reply-To: K Edge Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: K Edge Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? In-Reply-To: <34933D59.E1245A63@actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII De-lurking in the shadows: I like Jennifer's idea, too. My ideal group would have 2-3 monthly book suggestions listed on Laura Quilter's web page in the areas of science fiction, fantasy, and uptopian/dystopian novels. I would prefer reading a hard copy rather than reading something online, but I wouldn't mind at all if the discussions were on this listserv. I understand that reading groups are often led by someone who might give a _book report_ or lead the discussion. It would be good to have such a leader in our group. Once we get the rules formalized, we ought to submit _wish lists_ for our book selections. It'll be possible then to take the finalized list and scrounge up the books. Karen Edge k.edge@m.cc.utah.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:23:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gdbassham Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Count me in, too. -- Gayla ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:33:43 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: simultaneous readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to second Jennifer Krauel's ideas about some shared readings over time--it seems a nifty way to focus some discussion and get around the lack of buildup regarding certain writers. Might be some problems generating lists (I can only suggest things I've read, though most of what I'd suggest I'd be happy to reread) and structuring it, but that's no reason not to try. Latching onto some recent discussion a la fairy tales, let me suggest one possible work for a potential fantasy list: Robin McKinley's _Beauty_ and her latest "re/vision" of the same tale, _Rose Daughter_. The issue of lack of mothers in fairy tales may be historically based, but there's some other interesting stuff going on here as well in terms of feminism. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:06:47 -0800 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's my 0.02 credits...I already sent Jennifer a reply separately. Count me in. It'll be a little squirrely trying to fit the group's book into my reading du jour (I'm usually juggling at least four or five things at any one time), but this way the list will have some common topics to work with. Later, Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:27:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Disney and fairy tales (yet another on this vein...) This is to Catherine Asaro and anyone else who happens to be interested. I was at Disney World this past spring and took a tour of the studio where the do drawing for some of the Disney features. While I was there, they were really pushing Hercules (surprise surprise...) However, they also mentioned a story based upon a Japanese folk tale about a young girl who goes into the army in her father's place when he is drafted (he's old or sick or something, so she has to take his place). Has anyone else heard about this? The potential for a good story is there; of course, Disney could botch it. You know, do something like market an army kit for the main character, complete with make-up and jewelry. Does anyone know what tale this is (knowing Disney "loosely") based on? Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:29:13 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robyn Starkey Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I really like the bookgroup idea, too. I used to be in a face to face group, and I find it interesting to see that most groups eventually work to a similar structure. >1) We would need an organizer - someone to post the reading schedule on >their web page, open up discussion on the given day, etc. Too true. I would suggest that someone volunteers to think of some issues for discussion for each book (doesn't have to be the same person). >4) Openess: we would have to be willing to read not only things we've >read before, but also things that don't fall within the realm of >"books," such as sequential art (or comic books, if you will). Reading something new and different is the best part of book groups. There are heaps of things I would never read off my own bat, but that I would read for a book discussion. Robyn *********************************** Robyn Starkey University of Melbourne r.starkey@elp.unimelb.edu.au ************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:43:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group? Since there seems to be an enormous number of people on the server interested in this, maybe have a 2-3 book list, read as many or few as you like prior to the next "meeting". That way, each book might not have such a huge number of people writing about it. Of course, I write this only for the selfish reason that I already have a hard enough time keeping up with everyone's great comments! :) Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:40:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Thoughts on *The Sparrow* Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm curious what other people thought of the roles of females in *The Sparrow* by Mary Doria Russell. In deference to people who may not have read it, I will now insert spoiler room. *SPOILERS* Since this novel won the Tiptree Award for 1996, I expected to find something provocative regarding gender or sex roles, but I was disappointed. There is somewhat of a reversal in that the Runa females are the adventurous, roving sex and the males stay at home caring for the children, but this detail was fairly unimportant in the context of the novel. We never get into the heads of any of the Runa (except very briefly Supaari's secretary, near the end of the book -- I longed to learn more about her), even though the main characters spend the majority of their time with the Runa. In contrast, we learn quite a bit about the males of the Jana'ata (the females remain offstage). Now that I think about it, it almost feels like the two species play against one another in a stereotyped male/female way -- the communal, peaceful Runa as the females and the predacious, highly "cultural" Jana'ata as the males. By my count, there are only three actual females that play important roles in the book. 1) Anne Edwards, the middle-aged mother figure; 2) Sofia Mendes, the sexualized figure who tempts the main character to break his vow of celibacy; 3) Askama, the verbally facile, trusting Runa girl-child. Anne and Sofia are quite a bit more complex than that sounds. Anne is smart, outspoken & sexual. Sofia is a genius and writes the artificial intelligence routine that pilots Emilio home; she also changes history by teaching the Runa that they are many, while the Jana'ata are few. But... I felt troubled by the spin put on each character. Anne seemed to exist just to "fix" other people. The shoulder to cry on, the supportive wise one who always knew how to draw someone out & ease their pain. Sofia was the tough, ultra-competent professional with a painful past whose healing came in the form of a heterosexual relationship and pregnancy. Askama was the loyal innocent whose death was the final blow to Emilio's fading sanity. These all seem very familiar roles for females. Those who have read the book -- am I crazy? What did you think of the book and its characterizations of females? I'm inspired to write this message because I liked the book (could barely put it down), but felt a lingering discomfort with some of its elements. -- Janice ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Radiohead, OK Computer; Tricky, Pre-Millennium Tension "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:24:40 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Disney and fairy tales (yet another on this vein...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bonnie Gray wrote: > > I was at Disney World this past spring and took a tour of the > studio where the do drawing for some of the Disney features. > While I was there, they were really pushing Hercules (surprise surprise...) Gee, I'd push Hercules ... > However, they also mentioned a story based upon a Japanese folk > tale about a young girl who goes into the army in her father's place > when he is drafted (he's old or sick or something, so she has to > take his place). Has anyone else heard about this? It doesn't ring any bells for me. It sounds like an intriguing story, though. > The potential > for a good story is there; of course, Disney could botch it. You > know, do something like market an army kit for the main character, > complete with make-up and jewelry. I can just see it. Commando-Barbie, complete with a pink M-16, a mess-make-up-kit, and a designer camauflage uniform with high-heeled pumps. Best regards Catherine http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:35:33 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Fairy Tale Princesses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, I will agree that many more women died in childbirth in previous centuries than now. But that has no real bearing on the current question. For one thing, mothers had =more= of a presence in earlier version of many fairy tales. Hollywood wasn't around when most of these stories came into being. The "dead mother" syndrome is more prevalent in our modern versions. Even if we ignore that, the plethora of dead mothers still makes no sense. Sure, more mothers died then than now. But not ALL of them. As for the evil stepmother, the point is not that she is a step mother but that she is usually evil. We have plenty of step-mothers in modern society too. That doesn't make them inherently bad. Distracted, perhaps, but not evil. The fathers were certainly distracted too, but they fare better in stories. Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > Well, if you go back to the folklore originals, the grim truth > (pun not entirely intended) is that she probably died in childbirth. This > was the leading cause of death in married women prior to the mid-nineteenth > century and it didn't matter whether they were poor women or nobility. > > Which is why their are so many kings without queens in fairytales. > > Which is also why there are so many wicked stepmothers. A man who lived > until 45 had better than even odds of long outliving his wife, remarrying > at least once, and having children by the second (and third wife). In a > poor family, a woman faced with the task of having to take care of ten > kids, only half of them hers, would be more likely than not to treat her > own children better than her stepchildren. Child abandonment and > infanticide were quite common in the middle ages. Even the Church tended > to turn a blind eye to these practices in many cases. > > Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:05:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Book group I participate in the Minneapolis-based Second Foundation, an SF book- discussion club, a group which is about to commemorate its 15th anniversary next month. I've found it a good way to both expand my reading and make the reading experience more meaningful. We discuss any or all works by a chosen author every six weeks - lately, we've done Mary Shelley, Tanya Huff, Karen Joy Fowler, Nicola Griffith, Dan Simmons, Terry Bisson... The discussion subject is chosen by old- fashioned nomination and voting, a process that might be difficult on line but which seems to work out for us. Lately we've also been sharing pizza or homemade soup - even more difficult on line... David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:06:17 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Nicola Griffith--Writing from the Body In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971215132911.0086be20@ariel.unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nicola Griffith has a very interesting article in the latest issue of Science Fiction Eye called Writing from the Body. It covers a great deal of worthwhile material in a fairly brief space, moving from the classical problem of the mind-body dichotomy, as formulated by, among others Plato, Aristotle and St. Augustine, to the effect of her own health problems on her writing, to why male critics tend to assume that fiction by women is more heavily autobiographical than fiction by men. Mike Levy Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:53:09 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith--Writing from the Body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if it is the same one as at: http://www.america.net/%7Edaves/ng/body.html. If so, it's a great one. I found it months ago when doing a search on women and disabilities, before I knew that she was a sci-fi author. Lindy Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > Nicola Griffith has a very interesting article in the latest issue of > Science Fiction Eye called Writing from the Body. -- "If I had my past life to live over, I'd make all the same mistakes, only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com/ Resources related to women, disabilities and literature