From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fri May 22 09:18:05 1998
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:13:33 -0500
From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)"
     <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
To: lquilter@HOOKED.NET
Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9712C"

=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:11:28 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         BJBenesch <BJBenesch@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Re: Fairy Tale Princesses
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 97-12-14 10:34:08 EST, Honor Wallace wrote:

>  When I was young, I read a book called _Beauty_ (NOT the Tepper book) which
>  was
>  novel-length retelling of "Beauty and the Beast."  As I recall, it was
>  *wonderful*.
>  Unfortunately, I can't remember the author.  Has anyone else read this?
<snip>
>  Honor (which, btw, is the main character's real name---perhaps another
>  reason why I enjoyed it!)


I know Robin McKinley (who wrote "The Hero and The Crown" and "The Blue
Sword") wrote "Beauty: A Re-Telling of the Story of Beauty and the Beast".  I
don't know if that's the one you're talking about, as I never was able to read
it, but it is something I've always been interested in reading, and would
appreciate any comments you or anyone else might have.

Robin McKinley also wrote a re-telling of the Robin Hood legend in which
Marian was a better shot than Robin, and I enjoyed that as well.  The title on
that one was "The Outlaws of Sherwood".  Just made me think of it.

Barbara Benesch
BJBenesch@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:33:42 UT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Lesley Hall <Lesley_Hall@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: Book group

        >The discussion subject is chosen by old- fashioned nomination and      >voting,
a process that might be difficult on line but which seems to work       >out for us

I'm on another list which reads works of 'literature' and full-group reads are
organised on this principle. People submit suggestions in a rather broad way
and then, depending on the feedback, nominate them for group-reading. If there
is at least one seconder for the nomination, they then go on a final voting
list. A date is set for the vote--first two choices, and then points are given
accordingly and a final winner selected by calculating these. There are also
smaller group reads when someone wants to read a particular work and enough
other people are interested to generate discussion.
        One thing that has been found important is the clear noting of what is being
discussed (usually some abbreviation) in the message headers, so that those
who aren't interested can skip the thread.
        I rather liked the Robin McKinley idea but believe that the new book is so
far only out in hardback?
Lesley
Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:38:51 -0000
Reply-To:     joanharan@dial.pipex.com
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Joan Haran <joanharan@DIAL.PIPEX.COM>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on *The Sparrow*
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Janice

Timely message this, as I just finished *The Sparrow* last right.

*Spoilers*









I also expected to find something much more radical about gender in the
novel, and was similarly disappointed.  In fact, on attempting to puzzle
through what might be different, the only thing that I could think of was
her treatment of masculinity/macho in the form of Emilio - how vulnerable
that made him and how it rendered him speechless about the rape.  If you
think about it just as a role reversal it seems somewhat simplistic, but in
the context of the discussions about celibacy it is rather more complex.
>

> Now that I think about it, it almost feels like the two species play
> against one another in a stereotyped male/female way -- the communal,
> peaceful Runa as the females and the predacious, highly "cultural"
Jana'ata
> as the males.

I'm not convinced of this reading, unless you want to simplify male/female
to predator/prey and I don't think Mary Doria Russell does this.

>
> By my count, there are only three actual females that play important
roles
> in the book. 1) Anne Edwards, the middle-aged mother figure; 2) Sofia
> Mendes, the sexualized figure who tempts the main character to break his
> vow of celibacy; 3) Askama, the verbally facile, trusting Runa
girl-child.

I know you acknowledge that it's more complex than this, but I think
setting up Sofia as a temptress is going further than Russell does - a
possible occasion of sin, perhaps, and a temptation from that point of
view, but nothing more active.  Sofia and Emilio both keep a very tight
rein on their sexuality, for differing reasons.  And it is interesting that
Sofia's attractiveness - despite conventional references to her beauty - is
portrayed as tied up in her intellectual brilliance.  (I'm fairly
ambivalent about this point, myself).

> But... I felt troubled by the spin put on each character. Anne seemed to
> exist just to "fix" other people. The shoulder to cry on, the supportive
> wise one who always knew how to draw someone out & ease their pain. Sofia
> was the tough, ultra-competent professional with a painful past whose
> healing came in the form of a heterosexual relationship and pregnancy.
> Askama was the loyal innocent whose death was the final blow to Emilio's
> fading sanity. These all seem very familiar roles for females.

Playing Devil's Advocate, again (tee-hee), the character Sofia marries,
Jimmy - again despite his massive size - is often presented as having
*typically* feminine traits - not to mention the fact that he is a
*mother's boy* (and Emilio emphatically is not).  (The influence of off-set
mothers on character formation would be a fascinating topic)

But what troubled me more was the dialogue - particularly Anne's
feistiness.  It did seem to be stuck in a bit of a timewarp - it had the
same feel as mainstream SF I read as a teenager (15ish years ago) but don't
ask me to pinpoint the writers.

I may be doing MDR a disservice here, but the novel seemed to me to be much
more about spirituality and the differences/conflicts between Divine Love,
and Mortal (Physical) Love.  The gender issues really don't seem worked
through enough in the sense that we are shocked/disrupted or made to
question.  With regard to the Runa/Jana'ata it seemed a fairly simplistic
role reversal trick was used with the Runa and the Jana'ata don't seem
terribly different to us.  The interesting relationships between the
Runa/Jana'ata had to do with the predator/prey relationship which I suppose
could be read as a metaphor for slavery or colonisation.  With regard to
the party of the explorers, as you identify, the relationships seem
basically rather conventional.

Like you I couldn't put the book down, and perhaps second time through I'll
get more nuance.  I loved the historical references to religion, although I
had my doubts that a 21st century Sephardic Jew would still be harbouring a
grudge against Spaniards, particularly when she had much more recent
atrocities to deal with.

I'd be curious to know what other readers find in *The Sparrow* that would
convince them that it warranted The Tiptree Award.

Joan
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:12:03 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Kmfriello <Kmfriello@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Re: Disney and fairy tales (yet another on this vein...)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 97-12-14 21:31:56 EST, you write:

<<   However, they also mentioned a story based upon a Japanese folk
 tale about a young girl who goes into the army in her father's place
 when he is drafted (he's old or sick or something, so she has to
 take his place).  Has anyone else heard about this?  The potential
 for a good story is there;  of course, Disney could botch it.  You
 know, do something like market an army kit for the main character,
 complete with make-up and jewelry.  Does anyone know what tale
 this is (knowing Disney "loosely") based on? >>

Save us all from Disney versions!

This doesn't sound like anything I've ever come across in studying Japanese
lit/culture/art; for one thing, the "draft" sounds very suspicious coupled
with "folktale." (My Japanese business partner agrees.) But there are many
accounts in Japanese legends, mostly found in the Heike Monogatori, of women
who are forced by circumstances to take up arms---usually in defense of a home
or stockade when the lord is killed. The most famous of these, of course, is
Tomoe Gozen (Jessica Salmonson wrote a 3-novel series based on her, and
there's a comic book series out there somewhere also). These women didn't
masquerade as men and they weren't commoners.

For a pretty decent online article in English on real women warriors in Japan,
see Ellis Amdur, "The Role of the Arms Bearing Women in Japanese History"
at http://www.koryubooks.com/Library/wwj1.html

Salmonson's Dictionary of Amazons has scattered entries on the women from
Japanese legend. Her book is full of errors and shows very poor scholarship,
but it does provide a handy starting point for running down stories & fact.

Kathleen
Kmfriello@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:42:50 UT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Lesley Hall <Lesley_Hall@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: Book group

Further to my last message about voting practice: in my other group it's also
possible, when voting, to indicate which book one would definitely NOT want to
read (minus points in final calculation)
Lesley
Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:44:42 UT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Lesley Hall <Lesley_Hall@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on *The Sparrow*

One thing I found interesting about 'The Sparrow' (though like others I found
its 'take' on gender roles not very radical) was the way that several of the
human protagonists were presented as 'outsiders' in various ways, while so
were the Jana'ata Supaari and Hlavin Kitheri--individuals trying to create a
place for themselves within the larger culture. I was also intrigued by the
theme of prostitution/exploitation which recurred on different levels
(physical, intellectual etc).
        But although I think it was trying to do some interesting things with the
leading male figures by not having them stereotypical Action Man figures,
having only 2 human female leads, and those strongly contrasted (to some
extent even archetypal??) didn't really do much to present alternative images
of women.
        However, a compelling read.
        Lesley
Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:23:20 -0400
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Geoffrey D. Sperl" <gamgee@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject:      Re: Book group
In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199712151041020051@classic.msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>        I rather liked the Robin McKinley idea but believe that the new
>book is so
>far only out in hardback?

That's very important: hardbacks really shouldn't be suggested because of
the student population found on this list.  If the paperback (or even trade
paperback) is coming out soon, that would be good for a suggestion...

- Geoffrey

"Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:40:00 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Rhian Merris <RHIAN.M.MERRIS@CPMX.MAIL.SAIC.COM>
Subject:      Company of Wolves; was Re: [*FSFFU*] Fairy Tale Princesses

Geoffrey wrote:

 ----------
Speaking of Ms. Hood, and farie tales in general, does anyone remember
the film version of _In the Company of Wolves_ (with Angela Lansbury, I
believe)?  If I remember correctly, it is based off of an Angela Carter
story of the same name from an anthology called _The Bloody Chamber_,
and it was this movie (though I had heard of Tanith Lee's _Red as Blood
or Tales from the Sisters Grimmer_ at the point I saw the movie) that
convinced me that fairy tales weren't for children but for the adults
reading the stories to the children...
 ----------

I just recently saw this and thought it was excellent.

Rhian
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:53:10 -0600
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Stacey Holbrook <ausar@NETDOOR.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group?
Comments: To: Jennifer Krauel <jkrauel@actioneer.com>
In-Reply-To:  <34933D59.E1245A63@actioneer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Jennifer Krauel wrote:

(snip)
> This list is great for discussing books, but it seems that other than
> the big name authors (e.g. Le Guin) there isn't much of a critical mass
> interested in discussing a book at a particular time.  So I thought we
> could nominate some books and schedule dates for their discussion.
> Perhaps this could happen in time for holiday reading?

I really like the idea of a book group and one book a month sounds about
right.  Someone expressed a concern that a book discussion might highten
the traffic on this list. I'm not so sure it would. Every list is
variable.  Some weeks a list might generate a hundred posts if everyone
finds the topics interesting. Some weeks there might be only one or two
posts if the threads aren't interesting to most or if life gets to be too
busy to answer e-mail. I've seen this list get very active and I have seen
it with hardly any traffic at all. I don't think a book group discussion
will change this very much.

> Jennifer
>

Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:21:22 -0700
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Bonnie Gray <bgray@ECE.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Company of Wolves; was Re: [*FSFFU*] Fairy Tale Princesses

     Saw it.  Don't remember much about it, though, other than some really
eerie shots of wolves/people in the woods.

Bonnie
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:50:07 GMT+100
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Petra Mayerhofer <pm@IER.UNI-STUTTGART.DE>
Subject:      Re: Book group
In-Reply-To:  <v04002d02b0baed6b181d@[198.109.36.28]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

I'd also like to participate in the book group. It would be a nice
change if a book that's fresh for me is also new for the others.

On 15 Dec 97 , Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote:
> That's very important: hardbacks really shouldn't be suggested
> because of the student population found on this list.  If the
> paperback (or even trade paperback) is coming out soon, that would
> be good for a suggestion...

I second that. Actually, if it is allowed to mention such
restrictions, it will take some time to get new releases (in English)
in Germany (and perhaps somewhere else too). So, perhaps it might be
possible to plan some months ahead for all of us to get the
respective book.

Petra


** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de **
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:13:43 -0500
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Stahl, Sheryl" <SFStahl@CN.HUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

        I would be interested too.   sheryl
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:21:43 -0500
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Stahl, Sheryl" <SFStahl@CN.HUC.EDU>
Subject:      criticism
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

I read Joanna Russ _To write like a woman_  (I think that was the title)
a little while ago - It was a very interesting collection of her essays.
sheryl

>   Anyone else have recommendations for literary criticism?
> In the main,
>
>
>
>                                    SPAWN OF A JEWISH
>                          _///_ //      CARPENTER            _///_ //
>       _///_ //         <`)=  _<<   \\ _\\\_     _///_ // <`)=  _<<
>     <`)=  _<<    _///_ // \\\  \\    >IXOYE=('> <`)=  _<<    \\\  \\
>        \\\  \\ <`)=  _<<            //  ///       \\\  \\
> Cindy Smith       \\\  \\ _///_ //              _///_ //    _///_ //
> cms@dragon.com            <`)=  _<<   _///_ // <`)=  _<<   <`)=  _<<
>                            \\\  \\   <`)=  _<<    \\\  \\     \\\  \\
> GO AGAINST THE FLOW!                  \\\  \\ A Real Live Catholic in
> Georgia
>
> Delay not your conversion       Woe to craven hearts and drooping
> hands,
>         to the LORD,            to the sinner who treads a double
> path!
> put it not off                  Woe to the faint of heart who trust
> not,
>         from day to day         who therefore will have no shelter!
>    Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 5:8  Woe to you who have lost hope!
>                                 what will you do at the visitation
>                                         of the LORD?
>                                    Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 2:12-14
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:21:58 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         NicolaZ <NicolaZ@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Re: Nicola Griffith--Writing from the Body
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 97-12-15 01:46:39 EST, Lindy wrote:

<<  I wonder if it is the same one as at:

 http://www.america.net/%7Edaves/ng/body.html.

 If so, it's a great one.  I found it months ago when
 doing a search on women and disabilities, before I
 knew that she was a sci-fi author.

 Lindy >>

because earlier Miky Levy had written:

 << Nicola Griffith has a very interesting article in the latest issue of
Science Fiction Eye called Writing from the Body. >>

Yes, it is the same one (though the URL you've referenced looks a bit wonky to
me).  Glad you both liked it.

Nicola

Nicola Griffith
http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:49:20 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Freddie Baer <fbaer@WESTED.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts on *The Sparrow*

Joan Haran wrote:

>>I'd be curious to know what other readers find in *The Sparrow*
that would convince them that it warranted The Tiptree Award.<<

Well, for me, it was the passage (from memory since I don't have the
book here) that described the Jana'ata trader as looking so similar
to the Runa trader that he could be her sister -- that's when all the
gender bells and whistles started going off for me.

Anyway, I also went up to the Tiptree Award web page
(http://www.sf3.org/tiptree/) to find the judges' remarks about "The
Sparrow." Find their comments below:

Mary Doria Russell, The Sparrow, Random House, 1996

Loved this novel-great old-fashioned science fiction in some
indefinable way, but with a modern sensibility. A very smart and
passionate book. I was initially concerned that the sexual content
was slight, but my enthusiasm finally swept these doubts away.
Although never quite defined as such, the transformation of the
protagonist takes place largely through sexual experience, from his
initial celibacy, to the middle of the book with his longings, to his
final climactic and terrifying journey offworld. [Karen Joy Fowler]

A fine first contact novel and a subtle exploration of the choices
people make in their lives, especially those concerning
self-definition, which always includes sexuality and gender roles.
[Richard Kadrey]

This novel haunted me for months; I kept thinking about it and
mulling it over, and the more I did, the more I found to think about.
The story centers on the spiritual crisis of Emilio Sandoz, a Jesuit
priest who has had his view of God (and, not incidentally, his
masculinity and his sexuality) challenged by his experiences on the
planet Rakhat. The story of this crisis is counterbalanced by the
stories of other priests, each with his own accommodation to
sexuality and celibacy. On a different level, in her portrayal of the
inhabitants of Rakhat, Russell makes fascinating connections among the
binary oppositions of male/female, person/animal, ruling
class/laboring class, pushing these connections in new directions. To
say more about this would be to give away spoilers-and this book is so
suspenseful that it wouldn't be fair to do that. Suffice it to say
that The Sparrow is rich and complex and provides a lot of food for
thought about power, gender, sexuality, and the connection between
body and spirit. [Janet M. Lafler]

The Sparrow is one of most haunting evocations of first contact I
have read in recent years-on this occasion the contact is between a
Jesuit-led team of scientists and some of the inhabitants of the
planet Rakhat. How does the novel explore and expand gender? Central
to The Sparrow is the examination of the importance of sexuality to
gender identity, specifically masculinity. Can you be celibate and
still be a man? At the same time the understandings of human
masculinity and femininity that dominate the thinking of the Jesuit
landing party make little sense in the face of the entirely different
gender models of the two alien races. I read this not unduly small
book in one sitting. I could not put the book down even though this
Australian judge was somewhat put out by an entirely unconvincing
(though mercifully brief) attempt at characterizing a 'typical'
Aussie bloke (pp. 122-123). [Justine Larbalestier]

Profoundly moving and upsetting and very much about cultural
constructions and difficult questions, including those of gender.
Russell's subjects are faith, religion, the structure and purpose of
the Catholic Church (or maybe just the Society of Jesus), and
saintliness. There's a gay Father Superior and a woman who (although
beautiful and petite) reads more male than many of the male
characters. There is an alien race whose genders are ambiguous to
humans, mostly because the females are larger than the males and the
males raise the children. The center of the book is the hero's
struggle to reconcile the fact that the aliens he had moved heaven
and earth to study have abused him terribly, with God's Plan,
celibacy, and his own macho upbringing. [Delia Sherman]
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:00:28 +0100
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "T. ALONSO" <malonsoal@NEXO.ES>
Subject:      Re: Anyone interested in starting a book group?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I will like to join too !
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:08:31 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         AnnyMiddon <AnnyMiddon@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Re: A Novel idea
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I'd be tempted to offer to participate in this project, if it weren't for two
things:

1)  I really suck at history.  I had to look up Cook to see when he travelled
to Australia.  I wouldn't have been surprised with any date between say 1700
and 1825 or so.  In fact, it wasn't till I looked the guy up that I found out
his first name and figured out the possible connection:  Captain James
Cook/Captain James Kirk.

2)  I'm nervous about getting involved in any project where the leader is
spending all available time figuring out just exactly how to do me in. <g>

Anny
AnnyMiddon@aol.com

In a message dated 97-12-11 06:55:45 EST, pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM writes:

> Anny, I shall be spending what little time I have spare in thinking up
>  suitable punishments. Shooting? Too quick. Boiling in oil? I haven't got
>  a big enough cauldron. Burning at the stake? I would need proof that you
>  are a witch. Can anyone help on that score? Maybe I should just force
>  you to read the finished novel!
>
>  Serially, though, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I am
>  not a good enough writer to carry it off by myself, though. How do you
>  lot feel about a co-operative FSFFU novel? Perhaps a shared universe a
>  la Thieves' World, although on a different time scale.
>
>  Anybody interested in writing for the project, or just with suggestions
>  or offers of help, please write to me. I'll get back to you in a few
>  days with a draught proposal.
>
>  Oh yes. Dealing with those damned colonists - an excellent idea. Care to
>  run with it, Anny?
>
>
>  Trust me, I'm a doctor.
>  Catweasel <pvbuckland@bigfoot.com>
>
>  How do I set my LaserJet to "Stun"?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:29:31 -0400
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Geoffrey D. Sperl" <gamgee@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject:      Re: criticism
In-Reply-To:  <C1BF83BA3880D011951700805F06EA7D0D4F7C@PROXY>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I read Joanna Russ _To write like a woman_  (I think that was the title)
>a little while ago - It was a very interesting collection of her essays.

That's the title, and it is a great collection that I would highly suggest,
even though (IMHO) I think she really misreads both _Star Wars_ and _Star
Trek_...

- Geoffrey

"Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:28:22 -0600
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Lorry B. Bond" <lbbond@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Disney and fairy tales (yet another on this vein...)
In-Reply-To:  <c0538b15.34952ca5@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>
>Salmonson's Dictionary of Amazons has scattered entries on the women from
>Japanese legend. Her book is full of errors and shows very poor scholarship,
>but it does provide a handy starting point for running down stories & fact.
>
>Kathleen
>Kmfriello@aol.com
>


Kathleen,

Thanks for the warning!  I have a copy of this book, and now I'll use the
information more critically!

Lorry
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:31:00 -0600
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Lorry B. Bond" <lbbond@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Nicola Griffith--Writing from the Body
In-Reply-To:  <7a0652a6.3495835a@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 02:21 PM 12/15/97 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-15 01:46:39 EST, Lindy wrote:
>
><<  I wonder if it is the same one as at:
>
> http://www.america.net/%7Edaves/ng/body.html.
>
> If so, it's a great one.  I found it months ago when
> doing a search on women and disabilities, before I
> knew that she was a sci-fi author.
>
> Lindy >>
>
>because earlier Miky Levy had written:
>
> << Nicola Griffith has a very interesting article in the latest issue of
>Science Fiction Eye called Writing from the Body. >>
>
>Yes, it is the same one (though the URL you've referenced looks a bit
wonky to
>me).  Glad you both liked it.
>
>Nicola
>
>Nicola Griffith
>http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/


Just my two cents -- I hooked onto the above URL and did indeed find the
article there.  Made a copy of it for my file . . .  Thanks!!!

Lorry
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:05:32 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Cat Farrar <cat@CFMC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nicola Griffith--Writing from the Body
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I know these kinds of posts are not welcomed, but Nicola, thank you for your
thoughts and your contributions.  That is my spiritual payment, which you
have certainly earned.

Cat Farrar

At 08:31 PM 12/15/97 -0600, you wrote:
>At 02:21 PM 12/15/97 EST, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 97-12-15 01:46:39 EST, Lindy wrote:
>>
>><<  I wonder if it is the same one as at:
>>
>> http://www.america.net/%7Edaves/ng/body.html.
>>
>> If so, it's a great one.  I found it months ago when
>> doing a search on women and disabilities, before I
>> knew that she was a sci-fi author.
>>
>> Lindy >>
>>
>>because earlier Miky Levy had written:
>>
>> << Nicola Griffith has a very interesting article in the latest issue of
>>Science Fiction Eye called Writing from the Body. >>
>>
>>Yes, it is the same one (though the URL you've referenced looks a bit
>wonky to
>>me).  Glad you both liked it.
>>
>>Nicola
>>
>>Nicola Griffith
>>http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/
>
>
>Just my two cents -- I hooked onto the above URL and did indeed find the
>article there.  Made a copy of it for my file . . .  Thanks!!!
>
>Lorry
>
>




                ~Cat Farrar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced."

~Martha McCaughey
 Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:46:53 -0400
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Geoffrey D. Sperl" <gamgee@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject:      Re: Disney and fairy tales (yet another on this vein...)
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.2.32.19971215202822.006b55a4@students.wisc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>      However, they also mentioned a story based upon a Japanese folk
>> tale about a young girl who goes into the army in her father's place
>> when he is drafted (he's old or sick or something, so she has to
>> take his place).  Has anyone else heard about this?
>
>It doesn't ring any bells for me.  It sounds like an intriguing story,
>though.

I don't think it's a Japanese folk tale, but Chinese.  I do know the title
is _The Legend of Mulan_, and it is about a girl who disguises herself and
fights against the Mongols (Genghis is supposed to be in there somewhere)
after being trained by a dragon voiced by...Eddie Murphy.  :\

- Geoffrey

"Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:19:19 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Cat Farrar <cat@CFMC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Disney and fairy tales (yet another on this vein...)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've been lurking for some time and an amazed by the lack of feminist novels
bing suggested.  It is 1997, an we are way passed gnder sterotypes in
SF,,,or are we?  Old gender roles arre just that,....old, boring, too common
to be worhty of sicussion.  And yet, here we are. What's up with thay?
Let's move and go beyond that and explore examples about males and females
that transcind the sterotypes of modern culture.  Whynot, we know that so
well....  Isn't gener-stereotypes as boring to you as they are as boring to
me?   They're boring because they keep repeating the known and are not
addresing the "unknown".  Science Fiction writers have always  prided
themselves on bing ahead of their times, as they should, since in most cases
they have been.  We should have stories that reflect our real life exeiences
because that is what is true. I'm not advocating naturalisic stories, I am
advocting true life stories where men and women are equally capabile of
sustainting their enviournents to the best of their abilities.

Cat Farrar

At 11:46 PM 12/15/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>      However, they also mentioned a story based upon a Japanese folk
>>> tale about a young girl who goes into the army in her father's place
>>> when he is drafted (he's old or sick or something, so she has to
>>> take his place).  Has anyone else heard about this?
>>
>>It doesn't ring any bells for me.  It sounds like an intriguing story,
>>though.
>
>I don't think it's a Japanese folk tale, but Chinese.  I do know the title
>is _The Legend of Mulan_, and it is about a girl who disguises herself and
>fights against the Mongols (Genghis is supposed to be in there somewhere)
>after being trained by a dragon voiced by...Eddie Murphy.  :\
>
>- Geoffrey
>
>"Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499
>
>




                ~Cat Farrar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced."

~Martha McCaughey
 Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:12:37 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Sharon Anderson <shander@CDSNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: Book Club
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>From a lurker:
        I would be very interested in a book club.   I hope you will post
details here, when it gets organized, or add me to the list, or whatever.
        Since everyone is posting their 'druthers, here are mine:

1) paperback only, currently on the market.  For those of us who live in
the boonies, don't count on library availability.

2) if there must be a choice, limit it to two or three.  Six seems less
like a book club, more like what we already have on this list.  (That is
not a complaint.  I LIKE this list.)

3) It's been almost a quarter of a century since I  was a regular attendee
at a college.  I don't want to go back via a book club.  I can live quite
happily without the scholarly dissertations, thankyouverymuch.  Half of the
time, I don't understand what "y'all" are saying.  Post-modernist what?

Thanks.

(+)-(+)   your bifocaled, bookish friend,
      |
\____/
 Sharon Anderson
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:42:20 -0400
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Geoffrey D. Sperl" <gamgee@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject:      Re: Book Club
In-Reply-To:  <v01540b02b0bb4db39fad@[208.26.129.177]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>  Post-modernist what?

Postmodernist claptrap, if you ask me.  :)

- Geoffrey

"Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:39:47 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Laura Quilter <lquilter@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject:      list-mistress - topicality
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

it's cool to talk & to praise (and nicola is a feminist sf writer after
all!) - it's just an on-topic kind of thing.  so i don't have a problem
with this kind of post.  just when the posts become 20 messages on the same
*really* irrelevant topic, or when there's a lot of short replies that
don't contribute to the discussion but end up sending a lot of mail across
the net.  remember, some people are paying for this on a per-piece basis.
(i apologize to those people for getting another posting from me on this!)
just to be clear: friendly chit-chat & good vibes are welcome!  endless
off-topic rantings - think twice before sending replies to the list.
consider an off-list discussion, with perhaps a summary to the list of the
relevant aspects of the disucussion.

if you think this is good, bad, or tyrannical, send comments to me and i'll
rethink list-policy.


At 07:05 pm 12/15/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I know these kinds of posts are not welcomed, but Nicola, thank you for your
>thoughts and your contributions.  That is my spiritual payment, which you
>have certainly earned.
>
>Cat Farrar
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:37:54 +0000
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Edward James <E.F.James@READING.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: someone looking for angela carter recordings
In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199712131612390288@classic.msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Lesley Hall wrote:

> I would suggest that even if these are not commercially available (try the BBC
> Shop, 41 Langham Place, London W1) an approach to the BBC archives might be
> productive. I don't have the address to hand but it should be in Foster and
> Sheppard's 'British Archives' (I think it is in Reading) or may even, by now,
> have a website... If they don't have the actual recordings they may have
> scripts or transcripts.


The following letter I got from multimedia.centre@bbc.co.uk might be
useful: it contains the telephone number of the BBC +paper+ archives (as
opposed to sound archives), which are just down the road from me in
Caversham (effectively a suburb of Reading).

Quote:
"For Radio scripts you need to contact Document Archives on T: 01189
472742 extension 281 or  extension 282 and for audio clips, Broadcast
Archives on T: 0171 765 3406.

Unfortunately I do not have any e-mail addresses for them.

Kind regards

Janine Powell

The BBC Multimedia Centre


Endquote.

Hope this is useful.

Edward James
University of Reading, UK
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:06:19 GMT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Catweasel <pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM>
Subject:      FSFFU Novel project update
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On the 11th of December Anny suggested that I write a novel based on an
idea I mentioned earlier.  I wrote back that whilst I did not feel
capable of writing a novel by myself I felt that the novel should be
written.

I proposed writing a co-operative novel in conjunction with other members
of this list, and asked for volunteers.  The response, whilst not
overwhelming, has been sufficient to get the project started.

I am writing seperately to those of you who have expressed an interest,
but thought I'd let the rest of you know We have liftoff!

I shall keep you posted.


Trust me, I'm a doctor.
Catweasel <pvbuckland@bigfoot.com>

...and BTW, OTOH (FWIW), IMHO it's OK.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:52:10 GMT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Catweasel <pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM>
Subject:      Apology
Comments: To: Cat Farrar <cat@CFMC.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <199712161719.JAA19826@main.cfmc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It was 16/12/97 17:19:49 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful business,
I observed Cat Farrar <cat@cfmc.com>,
hereinafter referrded as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor:

> Are you always this impolite to newbies on the list?

No, I am always impolite.  Full stop.

Sorry, I was having one of my funny turns.  Pass the dried frog pills,
please.

The point I was failing to make in my own, feeble fashion was that your
posting was not up to your usual standard of English.  In fact, I had to
look twice to make check the signature.  I was not commenting on the
content, but I was disappointed by 20 spelling errors.

Perhaps I should have made it clear what I was trying to say.  Perhaps I
should have kept quiet.

One of many things which I appreciate about the FSFFU list is the high
standard of literacy.  I can't help it, I am a pedant.

Since you wrote to the list rather than directly to me I am sending a
copy of this to the list, also.  I shall therefore take this opportunity
to explain a little of the way I am to the list members.

I am, not to put too fine a point on it, blessed with an evil sense of
humour.  Well, that is what I call it, anyway.  When talking to someone
face to face I deliver my lines deadpan.  Same here.  You will never see
me adding a smiley or otherwise labelling my text to say that I am
attempting to be humourous.  I realise that this leaves me open to
misinterpretation, but it's the way I am.  I shall continue in this
manner, flippant, sarcastic, even (heaven forbid) occasionally serious.
It is up to you, dear readers, to interpret me as you see fit.

I subscribed to this list less than two weeks ago, thinking that it
would make interesting reading keep me informed about books I might not
hear about.  I have not been disappointed.  What I did not expect was
that I would be contributing to the list.  (I heard that, whoever said
my postings have not been a contribution).  So ther you have it.  Here I
am, warts an' all, and you are stuck with me until I die, my computer
blows up, or Laura kicks me off.  (No, I will NOT sign a petition!)

So, Cat, there you have me.  Grovelling.  I do not regret writing to
you.  I DO regret failing to say anything meaningful.  I committed the
crime of being upsetting and pointless.  I have enjoyed reading your
posts over the past few days, and look forward to many more.  If I have
made an enemy for life then so be it.  I sincerely hope I have not.


Trust me, I'm a xxxxxxpedant.
Catweasel <pvbuckland@bigfoot.com>

Life is like a simile.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:02:33 GMT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <feministsf@listserv.uic.edu>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Catweasel <pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Apology - Oops
In-Reply-To:  <199712162052.UAA18793@lions.cableinet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Aaaarrrrrrgh!!!!!!!

I tell you, you lot are fortunate that I don't have a brain.  If I did, I
would probably be dangerous.

Somebody just wrote to me regarding my last post, and said something
that made me realise that my mail filter isn't working properly.  And I'm
a computer consultant?  Yeesh!

Right, here I go again.  Sorry, Cat.  Your letter went in the wrong box,
so I thought that you had sent it to the list.  Had I had the sense to
check I would have responded privately as you did.

As for the rest of you.  Regarding my last apology; it never happened.
You never received it.  Honest.  Those of you who think you did REALLY
ought to see a doctor about these hallucinations you have been having
lately.


Trust me, I'm a xxxxxxprat.
Catweasel <pvbuckland@bigfoot.com>

My slinky's kinked.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:12:57 GMT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "Vonda N. McIntyre" <vonda@OZ.NET>
Subject:      Re: Strong women books
In-Reply-To:  <199712112247.LAA108070881880439@mail.iconz.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In print, easy to get.

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:41:53 +1300, Jenny Rankine
<jrankine@HRC.GOVT.NZ> wrote:

>...
>
>Vonda McIntyre's Dreamsnake (one of her early books, may be hard to find)
>
>...



http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda
The Moon and the Sun -- One of Publishers Weekly's
"Best Books of 1997"
http://www.bookwire.com/pw/bestbooks97.article$3946
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:48:23 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         BJBenesch <BJBenesch@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Deerskin
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Somebody on the list in the last week or two mentioned Robin McKinley's
"Deerskin" in all the discussion about her re-telling of Beauty and the Beast,
and after reading those comments I went through my stockpile of books and
pulled out my copy.  I'd started it ages ago and for whatever reason never
finished it, so I decided to give it another go.  I'm very glad I did.

I'd be interested in hearing comments from other people who have read it,
especially if people have read "The Hero and The Crown" and "The Blue Sword"
as all three apparently take place on the same world at very different times.

I'm at the point where I'm still reeling from the experience of reading it the
way I did (basically in one really exhausting "gulp") and plan to go through
it again now to really digest it, but I would be interested in hearing what
other people thought of it.

Barbara Benesch
BJBenesch@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:25:26 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Erica J Kline <ejkline@BECKMAN.COM>
Subject:      Book Club *and* Disney Folk-Tales
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hello All!
I'm new to the group, and I don't know if it's appropriate here, but most
of the lists I subscribe to like to have new members introduce themselves,
so here goes... My name is Erica, and I have been a feminist for as long as
I can remember and a sci-fi reader ever since I discovered a box of 1950's
"Analogs" and "Galaxies" in our basement. In addition, I'm a mom, a
scientist and a easterner-turned-californian. I have numerous hobbies, but
reading is the one that I always come back to. I'm really pleased to find
this list and I hope I can make meaningful contributions from time to time.

My first comment is about the Book Club - I think it's a great idea - I'm
already a member of a FTF one at my library, and it's really good to hear
everyone's opinions about a book while it's still fresh in your mind. I
heartily agree that we limit it to books that are available in paperback,
and that we have a couple of months lead time - I like to get my books from
the library and sometimes it takes awhile.

My second comment is about the Chinese Folk-Tale about a woman who
disguises herself to become a warrior. There is a good treatment of this in
Maxine Hong Kingston's  "The Woman Warrior"; very detailed, although it's
not clear how much of the detail is from the folk-tale and how much is
Maxine's invention. I especially enjoyed how the woman warrior deals with
her family responsibilities.

Bye for now - and thanks for such an interesting group!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Erica
ejkline@beckman.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:33:40 -0600
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Sean Johnston <sean-johnston@UIOWA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Book Club *and* Disney Folk-Tales
In-Reply-To:  <0825656F.0063749C.00@svdatsmtpmta.dp.beckman.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Erica,
        Welcome.

-Sean

Do we exist or do we live?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:51:09 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Kmfriello <Kmfriello@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Mulan (Disney)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

There are a couple of sites on the Web about "Mulan" (Hua Mu-Lan, Fa Mu Lan,
etc.), the Chinese woman warrior from Maxine Hong Kingston's book and subject
of Disney's upcoming animated film.
An English translation of a poem about her is at
http://www.tcp.com/~miyazaki/nausicaa/hairston/mulan.html
more information on the story and the film arranged as FAQ is at
 http://www.chinapage.com/mulan.html

The Mu Lan (Kingston) and Mulan (Disney) difference is due to Kingston's use
of the older Wade-Giles system of transliteration vs the pinyin system
insisted on by the People's Republic of China and adopted here by newspapers
and, less rapidly, by scholars, following Nixon's visit to China.

The second site gives different versions of the stories and mentions other
women fighters. The author also gives some details of how Disney has changed
the story; for one thing, instead of revealing herself after a 10 to 12 year
career as a general, Mu Lan is unmasked during or right before the main
battle. Sounds like the traditional songs of women disguising themselves as
sailors in the British Navy ("and breasts revealed all snowy white" etc.).

At least this Disney heroine isn't built like the Barbie Pocahontis.

Hope this is of some interest,

Kathleen
Kfriello@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:58:38 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Kmfriello <Kmfriello@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Fairy Tales/Crit
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I apologize in advance if I'm raking over old ground: I've been severely time-
lagged lately trying to meet a deadline, not being able to read most of the
posts coming in so fast & furious, and I'm a new subscriber to this listserv
as well.

Marina Warner, who wrote a wonderful book on myths of the Virgin Mary (Alone
of All Her Sex) and Joan of Arc (Joan of Arc: The Image of Female Heroism),
has a terrific book called From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairy Tales and
Their Tellers.
(Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1994).

Rats, and now that I've started this I don't have time to go into any
detail---she has some new things to say about the purpose of fairy tales as
instruction for adults, rather than as learning aids for children (and gives
nasty Mr. Bettleheim some stiff rebuttal along the way). Her reading of the
evil stepmother as the mother-in-law encountered by the young bride gives you
more sympathy for both the "evil" mother and the feckless girl coping with
her. This isn't theory-babble, by the way, but a careful cultural history.

I'll post again with more about her ideas, more coherently put---I was
especially struck with her history of women storytellers. It put William
Bennet's tales, with his strong male narrator (at least in the PBS series
based on his stories that I saw) and his moralizing in a context that
justified the queasy feeling I have about him and other Christianity-grounded
narrators like C.S. Lewis. Ever read "The Shoddy Lands?"

Have to run again; more later

Kathleen
Kfriello@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:52:33 GMT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <feministsf@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Catweasel <pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM>
Subject:      Mulan (Disney)
In-Reply-To:  <9a56dfd0.34991c40@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It was 18/12/97 12:51:09 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful business,
I observed Kmfriello <Kmfriello@AOL.COM>,
hereinafter referrded as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor:

> There are a couple of sites on the Web about "Mulan" (Hua Mu-Lan, Fa Mu Lan,
> etc.), the Chinese woman warrior from Maxine Hong Kingston's book and subject
> of Disney's upcoming animated film.
> An English translation of a poem about her is at
> http://www.tcp.com/~miyazaki/nausicaa/hairston/mulan.html
> more information on the story and the film arranged as FAQ is at
>  http://www.chinapage.com/mulan.html

On following the above links I discovered that the FAQ is not at
Chinapage but at http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/5082/mulanfaq.html.
This is part of _Angela's Mostly Disney World_ at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/5082/.  There is, surprisingly, (Damn,
I wish all You foreigners on this list would use proper English - I'm
so confused now that I'm wearing out my dictionary double-checking
everything) a lot of Disney related stuff.  Angela also provides a link
to the official Disney Mulan site:
http://www.disney.com/DisneyPictures/Mulan/_index.html

I haven't looked at the Disney site, and probably won't, I just thought
that some of you might be interested.

Thinking about it, I am puggled as to why I followed Kathleen's links in
the first place.  I normally just give Disney-related messages a quick
look and pass on to the next one.  Am I becoming senile?  (All right,
who said "Whaddaya mean, becoming?")  Kathleen, I am not sure whether to
thank you or curse you for this new interest.


Trust me, I'm a doctor.
Catweasel <pvbuckland@bigfoot.com>

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good
with ketchup.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:58:10 PST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Daniel Krashin <dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Off Topic -- "Breast Men" on HBO
Content-Type: text/plain

I know this excludes non-US subscribers, but did anyone else
see the HBO movie "Breast Men", supposedly the real
story behind breast implants?
    Amazing show.  Some science fact is stranger than science fiction.

Dan Krashin
Happy Holidays to everyone in cyberland!



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:16:36 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Cat Farrar <cat@CFMC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Off Topic -- "Breast Men" on HBO
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I didn't see it but would really appreciate if you shared with us what the
show was about.

Cat Farrar

At 10:58 AM 12/18/97 PST, you wrote:
>I know this excludes non-US subscribers, but did anyone else
>see the HBO movie "Breast Men", supposedly the real
>story behind breast implants?
>    Amazing show.  Some science fact is stranger than science fiction.
>
>Dan Krashin
>Happy Holidays to everyone in cyberland!
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>




                ~Cat Farrar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced."

~Martha McCaughey
 Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:57:39 -0500
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Jill Gillham <jilkey@GRFN.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Off Topic -- "Breast Men" on HBO
In-Reply-To:  <199712181916.LAA17231@main.cfmc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Cat Farrar wrote:
> I didn't see it but would really appreciate if you shared with us what the
> show was about.
> At 10:58 AM 12/18/97 PST, you wrote:
> >I know this excludes non-US subscribers, but did anyone else
> >see the HBO movie "Breast Men", supposedly the real
> >story behind breast implants?
> >    Amazing show.  Some science fact is stranger than science fiction.

I was kinda half-watching, so this is probably somewhat inaccurate, (was
reading the new 'David Weber' stuff) but it was the story of the
development of breast implants, the doctors and scientists who invented
them, and the social dynamics and stuff invloved in their acceptance.
(Doctors discussing implants among themselves, a couple of mock talkshows
where women were talking about why they were getting them, the early idea
that only strippers and prostitutes waould want the implants.)

Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org  http://members.aol.com/~ferndock2
\|/   \|/   D=|[[]  "All-arm'd I ride, whate'er betide,
=0: + =0: =   \O/      Until I find the Holy Grail."
/|\   /|\     |*|        -- Alfred, Lord Tennyson      [Go WINGS!]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:14:47 -0500
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         jenn mottram <athena@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject:      Re: Off Topic -- "Breast Men"  *SPOILERS*
In-Reply-To:  <19971218185811.26786.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:58 AM 12/18/97 PST, you wrote:
>I know this excludes non-US subscribers, but did anyone else
>see the HBO movie "Breast Men", supposedly the real
>story behind breast implants?
>    Amazing show.  Some science fact is stranger than science fiction.
>
>Dan Krashin
>Happy Holidays to everyone in cyberland!

I saw it.  Watching it with my feminist-lens well polished, I found myself
appreciating the message that it was saying to the viewer.  It strongly
acknowledged the impact that pop culture has on our self-image, but
stressed that a woman's body is her own to do with as she chooses. The
women who were portrayed were all self-assertive and self-aware people. The
men in the company of the women were seen as a little slimy.  Men without
women near them were respectable, on the whole, except for the doctors at
the university (who were all egocentric jerks).  As far as I could tell,
they had the main facts of the story correct.  (as they put it, "The events
in this story have been slightly enhanced")

As a recap for those who didn't see it:  A history of the silicone breast
implant from the viewpoint of the inventor (David Schwimmer) and his mentor
from the inspiration (Schwimmer is a voyeur of the flat-chested
girl-next-door) to the Penthouse glory days to the crash as the serious
side effects are presented, to the resurgence of Schwimmer as he takes
advantage of the situation to start a breast implant removal business.
Interspersed through the movie are clips of interviews, where we see
women's chests as they discuss why they have or didn't have an implant done.

This movie is totally campy, but very serious at the same time. The whole
situation is made to seem rediculous, (through their 70s offices with the
strange furniture and ugly colors, very "mod" haircuts) but at the same
time, it doesn't degrade the women who are choosing to have implants. The
interviews cover almost the entire spectrum (liberal, conservative,
feminist, conventional) and allow women to share their opinions and speak
their mind, even though their faces are never shown. They have very
intelligent and thought provoking reasons for their decisions. Schwimmer is
shown to be sensitive and aware (he suggested saline solution to begin
with, but his mentor wanted silicone) but he's the one that becomes a drug
addict and Penthouse Doctor.  His mentor is shown to be venal, craven,
money-hungry, and somewhat ethical.  He dies of a heart attack after the
breast-implant crash. Schwimmer rises to the top with this "Whole Health
Center" which will remove the implants for $2000 and then offer saline
implants for another $6000 ... though the original implants were only
$4000.  He dies because he's too busy watching a woman's chest to pay
attention to where he's driving, and he gets hit by a Mac Truck.

Lisa Marie shows up in this, as well as Matt Frewer, Lyle Lovett, and a
bunch of other big name types, which makes this all very tongue-in-cheek as
well.

All in all, I thought it was a well-done  piece, and I'd recommend everyone
to watch it.

Personally, I had been on a diet for the last two weeks so that I could fit
into this dress I have from last year (and the whole time I was kicking
myself for doing it, too. Me? Diet? What am I doing it for?!). After
watching this movie, where they have lots and lots of views of what women's
breasts -really- look like, in addition to those after-the-implant
airbrushed Baywatch Babes, I dropped my diet.  This movie reinforced my
attitude on body image and self-worth and all that, and reminded me of my
core beliefs that a person's body doesn't have to be thin and svelte and
model-perfect.  Pretty good, for an HBO Movie on breasts that could easily
have been such trash.


Jenn



--
{jenn mottram}      [Whatever is funny is subversive, every joke is ]
{generally poetry}  [ultimately a custard pie... A dirty joke is... ]
{athena(at)geocities.com}            [ a sort of mental revolution. ]

{http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464}    [           George Orwell ]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:22:17 -0500
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         "J.M. Jamieson" <jjamieson@ODYSSEY.ON.CA>
Subject:      Puggle (off-topic)
In-Reply-To:  <199712181752.RAA03821@lions.cableinet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 17:52 18/12/97 GMT, Catweasel wrote:

>(Damn, I wish all You foreigners on this list would use proper English - I'm
>so confused now that I'm wearing out my dictionary double-checking
everything)

And then Catweasel wrote:

>Thinking about it, I am puggled as to why I followed Kathleen's links in
>the first place.

Well Catweasel I too am rather puggled (smile) and I was wondering which
dictionary you were using because I would dearly love to use the word
"puggle" from now on; it has a rather nice but also naughty ring to it.

jjamieson@odyssey.on.ca
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:13:01 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Cat Farrar <cat@CFMC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Puggle (off-topic)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:22 PM 12/18/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 17:52 18/12/97 GMT, Catweasel wrote:
>
>>(Damn, I wish all You foreigners on this list would use proper English - I'm
>>so confused now that I'm wearing out my dictionary double-checking
>everything)
>
>And then Catweasel wrote:
>
>>Thinking about it, I am puggled as to why I followed Kathleen's links in
>>the first place.
>
>Well Catweasel I too am rather puggled (smile) and I was wondering which
>dictionary you were using because I would dearly love to use the word
>"puggle" from now on; it has a rather nice but also naughty ring to it.

Just a silly ol' typo, I'm sure...  :-)

Cat Farrar
>
>jjamieson@odyssey.on.ca
>
>




                ~Cat Farrar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Gender is a lived ideology...that becomes EMBODIED because it is enforced."

~Martha McCaughey
 Real Knockouts - The Physical Feminism of Women's Self-Defense
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:53:30 GMT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <feministsf@listserv.uic.edu>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Catweasel <pvbuckland@BIGFOOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Puggle (off-topic)
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.16.19971218162217.38772bee@mail.odyssey.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It was 18/12/97 21:22:17 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful business,
I observed "J.M. Jamieson" <jjamieson@odyssey.on.ca>,
hereinafter referrded to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor:

> At 17:52 18/12/97 GMT, Catweasel wrote:
>
> >Thinking about it, I am puggled as to why I followed Kathleen's links in
> >the first place.
>
> Well Catweasel I too am rather puggled (smile) and I was wondering which
> dictionary you were using because I would dearly love to use the word
> "puggle" from now on; it has a rather nice but also naughty ring to it.

A particular favourite of mine, puggled, but I am sorry that I cannot
recall its origin. It has the feel of something Pooh said, but I don't
have the books to hand to check.  It is, as far as I Know, a verb with
only one form.  I have only ever read or heard it as puggled, and only
used in the first person.

I would be grateful if someone could help with this, because if it
wasn't the bear of little brain then I have no idea where to look.


Trust me, I'm a doctor.
Catweasel <pvbuckland@bigfoot.com>

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:05:38 -0800
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Laura Quilter <lquilter@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject:      IDing story - "rape patrol" - Re: femsf feedback Fri Dec 19
              02:58:27 CST 1997
Comments: To: penomee@value.net, feministsf@uic.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi, Kari - interesting question - i'm passing it to the listserve to see if
anyone else has heard of this one.  y'all, please be sure to reply to Kari
Ann Owen at penomee@value.net AS WELL as to the listserve (i want to know
the answer too)

laura quilter

At 02:58 am 12/19/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Name: Kari Ann Owen
>Email: penomee@value.net
>
>I am a: author
>I found this page by looking for: feminism
>
>My comment concerns: question
>OK to post on bulletin board: bulletin board OK
>Please respond as soon as possible
>
>My comments are:
>  I am interested in finding a
>feminist scifi story called "The Rape
>Patrol", which I first found in an
>anthology in 1985.
>
>Many thanks.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:21:49 -0500
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         silk <silk@PIPCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: IDing story - "rape patrol" - Re: femsf feedback FriDec
              1902:58:27 CST 1997
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >My comments are:
> >  I am interested in finding a
> >feminist scifi story called "The Rape
> >Patrol", which I first found in an
> >anthology in 1985.
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >

I don't know if it's any help, depending on where in the world you are, but
the Merril Collection (formerly Spaced-Out Library) in Toronto used to
maintain an index of short stories by author and title.  I don't know if
that index is still maintained, but it was in existence in 1986, so a phone
call, email or letter to them might produce an answer.

Their phone number is (416) 393-7748.  I don't have an email address for
the collection, but the website can be found at
http://www.tpl.toronto.on.ca/merril/home.html.

Hope this helps.

Wendy

***************************
Wendy Pearson                 Email:  wpearson@trentu.ca; silk@pipcom.com
Cultural Studies                  Phone:  (705) 745-0637
Trent University
Peterborough                     Mailing Address:  Box 228, Trail College
Ontario K9J 7B8                Trent University, Peterborough, Ont. K9J 7B8
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:26:44 -0600
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Honor Wallace <WALLACHM@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: IDing story - "rape patrol"
Comments: cc: penomee@value.net
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>  I am interested in finding a
>>feminist scifi story called "The Rape
>>Patrol", which I first found in an
>>anthology in 1985.
>>


It's by M. Lindholm and is in Jessica Amanda Salmonson's anthology
_Amazons!_.  I don't think it had
been previously published and I don't know if it has been since.  The
editorial introduction, if I recall correctly, indicated that Lindholm was
once a student of  Joanna Russ's--but I got the impression that she wasn't
necessarily a professional and that the story had been solicited
specifically for the anthology.  If anyone has heard of anything else by
her, I would be interested in titles, thoughts...

Honor
Rosalind C. Johnson
Vanderbilt University
Molecular Biology
Box 1820, Station B
Nashville, TN  37232
615-343-3078 Phone
615-343-6707 Fax
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:35:16 -0600
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Honor Wallace <WALLACHM@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: IDing story - "rape patrol"--CORRECTION
Comments: cc: penomee@value.net
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

uurp--I read the wrong name--it's not M. Lindholm, it's M. Belling.  So very
sorry for any confusion.


>>  I am interested in finding a
>>feminist scifi story called "The Rape
>>Patrol", which I first found in an
>>anthology in 1985.
>>


It's by M. Lindholm and is in Jessica Amanda Salmonson's anthology
_Amazons!_.  I don't think it had
been previously published and I don't know if it has been since.  The
editorial introduction, if I recall correctly, indicated that Lindholm was
once a student of  Joanna Russ's--but I got the impression that she wasn't
necessarily a professional and that the story had been solicited
specifically for the anthology.  If anyone has heard of anything else by
her, I would be interested in titles, thoughts...

Honor
Rosalind C. Johnson
Vanderbilt University
Molecular Biology
Box 1820, Station B
Nashville, TN  37232
615-343-3078 Phone
615-343-6707 Fax
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:42:58 UT
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Lesley Hall <Lesley_Hall@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: Puggle (off-topic)

I have a very vague memory of reading somewhere (Kipling? John Masters?) the
use of 'puggle' as British-soldiers-in-India slang for crazy (or possibly
drunk)--derived from ?Hindi 'pagal'. Unfortunately it's not given in the
invaluable 'Hobson-Jobson: A dictionary of Anglo-Indian'
Lesley
Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:15:14 EST
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         BJBenesch <BJBenesch@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject:      Re: Deerskin
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 97-12-18 18:20:04 EST, you write:

>       I think it was probably me that you are referring to as I posted
>  something about Deerskin on Sunday. With all the talk about doing a
>  group read I wanted to suggest Deerskin as an option.

I would definitely recommend it as something for a group read as well, now
that I've read it through. And thanks, by the way, for pointing me toward it.

>       Deerskin ranks right up there as one of my favorites. I liked
>  everything about it. I love the fairy tale kind of fantasy, the
>  atmosphere was lovely. I have a really strong bond with my dogs and was
able to
>  relate to Lissar and Ash's relationship.

I really liked the relationship with Lissar and Ash.  And I really love the
atmosphere as well.  The other two books ("The Hero and The Crown" and "The
Blue Sword") have the same sort of ambiance of being part fairy tale, part
fantasy.  I think it's one of the things I like best about Robin McKinley's
writing.  Her "Outlaws of Sherwood" is written in much the same tone.

>       I read some reviews of Deerskin and some readers found the
>  relationship of Lissar with her father very disturbing and that this
>  detracted from their feelings about the novel. My feelings are that
>  incest is a very real thing in some families and should not be swept
>  under the carpet. I've read some of the old fairy tales recently and
>  they were pretty scary too, not warmed over Disney.

I agree that the relationship of Lissar and her father was pretty disturbing,
but really, it should be.  I would definitely not enjoy a novel that made
incest _not_ disturbing.  And I agree with you totally, that incest is
something that unfortunately happens every day (at least in the U.S., I'm not
familiar with statistics anywhere else, although I can't imagine any country
is free of it) and we (as a society) need to deal with it rather than trying
to "ignore it away" as so many are willing to do.

>       I have not read the two other novels that you mentioned but I
>  plan to in the very near future. I too was pretty shook up after reading
>  Deerskin and it stuck with me for days. I haven't read The Hero and the
>  Crown or The Blue Sword because I had seen them classified as young
>  adult and didn't realize they were in the same world as Deerskin.

Now that you mention it, they are more "young adult" than "full adult" I
guess, but I enjoyed them so much when I first read them (at 12-14, now that I
think about it) that I don't think too much about the level they're written
at.

>       I'd also would like to hear what others think of Deerskin and especially
>  what you think of it as you seem to have been as affected by it as
>  I was.

I did like the book a great deal.  I'm still kind of "processing" through my
own feelings about it (along with being really short on time now with the
holidays), so I'm still interested in discussing it, although I think I need
another couple of days before I can really deal rationally with it.  (I'm also
catching up on my sleep because I kind of gave up sleep for a while in order
to finish it - talk about inhaling a book!)

I'm looking forward to see what other people have to say about it (or any of
Robin McKinley's work, for that matter), and will post my own
thoughts/feelings in a few days, I promise.  :)

Barbara Benesch
BJBenesch@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:11:28 +1300
Reply-To:     "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
Sender:       "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
              <FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
From:         Jenny Rankine <jrankine@HRC.GOVT.NZ>
Subject:      Deerskin
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Luckily I just happened to read Deerskin recently, as well as one of Robin
McKinley's others.

They have some similar elements - two out of the three I've read are about
princesses finding a place for themselves in the world, and all of them are
about a young woman maturing in a position which is under intense public
scrutiny but is in actuality extremely isolated.

All of them have some "god out of the machine" rescuing element, and in two
of them the protagonist is majorly changed by the experience - in one she
becomes immortal.

I had bought Deerskin a few years ago on the strength of the two Damar
novels, which I reread every couple of years.  I prefer novels with female
protagonists, and I especially like ones, like those, where she is battling
outside pressures to become independent and autonomous on her own terms.
In both the Damar novels there is a heterosexual relationship, but she
stands on her own feet in both of them.

However, when I first got Deerskin, I couldn't keep reading it because it
was obvious from the first few pages that her father was going to sexually
exploit her in some way.  There are long periods in my life when I can't
watch programmes or read books about rape or sexual abuse and that was one
of them.

I really liked it - a gruelling read for me, but the way in which she
rebuilt herself after a shattering rape was very well written.  I liked the
way McKinley showed the destructiveness of the people's worship of her
mother's beauty, which is a staple in most fairy tales, treated as normal
and harmless.

Jenny Rankine, Publicity Officer
Health Research Council of New Zealand
PO Box 5541, Auckland 1, Aotearoa  New Zealand
Visit our website http://www.hrc.govt.nz/