Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:15:14 -0500 Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9703" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:53:42 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christopher Smith Subject: Madeleine L'engle... Content-Type: text/plain This may be of interest to some of you... There is a new Madeleine L'engle Website. It features interviews, articles, reviews, summaries, quotes, bibliographies and other goodies. bonastra -- the Madeleine L'engle WWW Resource http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8838/ There is also a new L'engle email discussion group.. Details about this can be found on the webpage, or by emailing me at csmith@mad.scientist.com chris. --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:27:39 -0600 Reply-To: Laura Quilter Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Welcome to the List ! Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The list has just begun, and will probably continue to be very quiet for a few days or weeks - I hope to pull together a list of recent correspondents to the femsfweb pages and alert all of them, and also to announce the list existence on a couple of other SF lists. I started the list just a few days ago and have been getting 1-3 requests to join a day, so it might get pretty busy after a while. In the meantime, I'll introduce myself. I'm Laura Quilter, a librarian in Chicago, and I started the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopia web site. Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:59:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Introduction, Discussion Ideas, and Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, All, I'm Judith Little, a new philosopher and Sci Fi fan. My areas of speciality are Social and Political Philosophy, and Ethics. I discovered Feminist Sci Fi about two years ago and can't get enough of it. Some profs, administrators, and I are starting a Feminist Sci Fi discussion group on campus. I'd appreciate some ideas for our reading list, especially the first book, which will be crucial in determining the group's success. Most of us have read the classics (LeGuin, Peircy, Russ, etc.) and have recently discovered Sherri S. Tepper. I was thinking of one of Octavia Butler's books for the first book, as I've only read her short story, "Bloodchild." Any ideas for Butler or any other authors' works will be most appreciated. Speaking of Tepper, I just finished teaching an intersession course, which I called "Sci Fi, Sex, and Philosophy." I substituted Tepper's "Gate to Women's Country" as one of the course books at the last minute because Susan Elgin's "Native Tongue" was out of print. I'd be interested in comments about Tepper's work, especially GTWC and "Shadow's End." Judith Little ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:31:36 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Introduction, Discussion Ideas, and Tepper In-Reply-To: <19970306235327.13261.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Judith A. Little wrote: > Some profs, administrators, and I are starting a Feminist Sci Fi > discussion group on campus. I'd appreciate some ideas for our reading > list, especially the first book, which will be crucial in determining the > group's success. Most of us have read the classics (LeGuin, Peircy, Russ, > etc.) and have recently discovered Sherri S. Tepper. I was thinking of one > of Octavia Butler's books for the first book, as I've only read her short > story, "Bloodchild." Any ideas for Butler or any other authors' works will > be most appreciated. Wow, that's nice! A whole discussion group just for your campus. For Butler I'd recommend WILD SEED and KINDRED, or the entire XENOGENESIS trilogy. I'd also recommend Elisabeth Vonarburg's IN THE MOTHER'S LAND. > Speaking of Tepper, I just finished teaching an intersession > course, which I called "Sci Fi, Sex, and Philosophy." I substituted > Tepper's "Gate to Women's Country" as one of the course books at the last > minute because Susan Elgin's "Native Tongue" was out of print. I'd be > interested in comments about Tepper's work, especially GTWC and "Shadow's > End." > > Judith Little > > > > ************************************************************************* > Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > > *********************************************************************** > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 18:25:49 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Margaret Atwood Discussion List (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI, y'all ... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:26:41 -0400 From: Len Hatfield Reply-To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu Subject: Margaret Atwood Discussion List ANNOUNCING . . . The Margaret Atwood Society's Atwood Discussion List atwood-l@cariboo.bc.ca Please Excuse Cross-Postings Atwood-L is a mailserv list dedicated to the consideration of the literary, political, and cultural works and ideas of the Canadian author Margaret Atwood. Sponsored by the Margaret Atwood Society, an international association of scholars, teachers, students, and others who share an interest in the work of Margaret Atwood, this list seeks to provide an electronic forum for the exchange of ideas, opinions and information related to Atwood with the aim of encouraging the teaching and reading of Atwood's works. In addition, Atwood-L hopes to foster more effective research on Atwood and disseminate that research more widely. Atwood-L seeks participation not just by academic scholars who study Atwood professionally, but also by high-school, college and university teachers and students, librarians, bibliographers, literary and rare-book collectors, journalists, creative writers and others who may want to learn more about Atwood's work and share ideas and information. Participants are encouraged to post queries, comments, critiques, reviews, or concerns. They are also invited to share successes (and failures) with teaching or studying Atwood in the classroom. In addition, Atwood-L subscribers can use the list to announce conferences, place calls for conference papers or book submissions, announce the publication of new books on Atwood, and provide information about recent Atwood scholarship. To subscribe to Atwood-L: Send mail to: mailserv@cariboo.bc.ca Leave Subject line empty Content of message: subscribe atwood-l [firstname lastname] We look forward to your participation. For more information about the Atwood-L discussion list please contact: Thomas B. Friedman Department of English University College of the Cariboo Kamloops, B.C. Canada V2C 5N3 Phone: (250) 828-5260 Fax: (250) 371-5697 E-Mail: tfriedman@cariboo.bc.ca Web: www.cariboo.bc.ca/ae/engml/friedman/index.htm -- ...Len ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:35:16 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Octavia Butler (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In case any of you are in New Mexico ... Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:03:25 -0700 From: Gene Bundy Reply-To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT Subject: Octavia Butler Internationally-acclaimed author Octavia Butler will visit the Eastern New Mexico University campus on the 8th and 9th of May, 1997. Butler is the multiple winner of science fiction's most prestigious awards, the Hugo and the Nebula; she was also awarded the MacArthur Foundation's "young genius" award in 1995. The first African-American female author writing in science fiction, Butler's publications include: the Patternmaster series, the Xenogenesis series, Kindred, Parable of the Sower and Bloodchild and other Stories. Ms. Butler will speak in Buchanan Hall Thursday evening, 8 May, at 7 pm. Eastern welcomes all those interested in Butler and her work; there will be no charge for attendance. For more information contact Marilyn Mehaffy (mehaffym@email.enmu.edu), Patrice Caldwell (Patrice.Caldwell@enmu.edu), or AnnLouise Keating (keatinga@ziavms.enmu.edu). Octavia Butler's visit to ENMU is sponsored by Students and Legislators Supporting Awareness and by the ENMU Diversity Committee. Gene Bundy Special Collections Librarian Eastern New Mexico University Portales, NM 88130 (505)562-2636 bundyg@golden.enmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:24:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Octavia Butler (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII more Butler news! Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:32:58 -0500 From: Sean Johnston Reply-To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT Subject: Re: Octavia Butler Guess what? She's also coming to Univ. of Iowa from April 4-6. People can see her where it's relatively warm or they can wait and see her where it's warmer. Contact me for info on the UI thing. It's nice to see her so busy. -Sean Johnston >Internationally-acclaimed author Octavia Butler will visit the Eastern New >Mexico University campus on the 8th and 9th of May, 1997. Butler is the >multiple winner of science fiction's most prestigious awards, the Hugo and >the Nebula; she was also awarded the MacArthur Foundation's "young genius" >award in 1995. The first African-American female author writing in science >fiction, Butler's publications include: the Patternmaster series, the >Xenogenesis series, Kindred, Parable of the Sower and Bloodchild and other >Stories. > >Ms. Butler will speak in Buchanan Hall Thursday evening, 8 May, at 7 pm. >Eastern welcomes all those interested in Butler and her work; there will be >no charge for attendance. For more information contact Marilyn Mehaffy >(mehaffym@email.enmu.edu), Patrice Caldwell (Patrice.Caldwell@enmu.edu), or >AnnLouise Keating (keatinga@ziavms.enmu.edu). > >Octavia Butler's visit to ENMU is sponsored by Students and Legislators >Supporting Awareness and by the ENMU Diversity Committee. > >Gene Bundy >Special Collections Librarian >Eastern New Mexico University >Portales, NM 88130 >(505)562-2636 >bundyg@golden.enmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:50:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Octavia Butler (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello: Just joining into the group -- and what perfect timing. As a teacher of Freshman Composition, I hoped to further my knowledge of some sci-fi writers -- particularly Octavia Butler, as my students are now reading _Kindred_. Woe is me, though, because I cannot make it to Iowa to see her. Does anyone know if she will be coming to the east coast? Or, will Sean Johnston or Laura Quilter know of anyone who will be videotaping her visit? I'd love to share her talk with my kiddies. -Lissa Bloomer Virginia Tech ebloomer@vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:14:04 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: olskool "REVIEW" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:14:58 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: olskool "INFO REFCARD" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 18:41:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Angela Carter question Comments: To: Dan Wood , feministsf@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199703120753.BAA89618@tigger.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can anybody help this guy? Dan Wood is looking for a biography of Angela Carter, or recordings of her material ... On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 web_mailer@uic.edu wrote: > Name: dan Wood > Email: dwood@emory.edu > > I am a: sf fan\0researcher > I found this page by looking for: science fiction > > My comment concerns: question\0comment > OK to post on bulletin board: bulletin board OK > Please respond sometime soon, please > > My comments are: > Hello sci/fi guys and gals > I have two questions about Angela Carter. > The first is whether there is a biography out about her. > The second is whether there was ever a radio production made of her radio plays. If so, where could I obtain recordings of those radio plays? > Any help would be great. I have been a fan of Angela's for years. > > Take care, > > Dan > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: roane@mail.map.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: christine roane Organization: Preferred Company Subject: Influence of sci-fi on women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was delighted to discover this list! I'd like to ask female subscribers who became interested in science fiction as adolescents, how the portrayal of female characters influenced their development into adult women. Well-publicized examples of this include Whoopi Goldberg, who was inspired to pursue her dreams by Nichelle Nichols' character, Lieutenant Uhura, on "Star Trek," and shuttle astronaut Mae Jemison, who was influenced in her career choice by the same program. I am writing a book on this subject and have a questionnaire for those of you who would like to contribute to my research. I'd love to have you review my questions, and I'd love even more to have your responses! Please, send your e-mail address to me: roane@mail.map.com I'll send you the questions ASAP. And thank you all. Christine Roane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:56:37 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: technological feminist sf? Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu Comments: cc: Jerry Savage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jerry, I'm forwarding your question to some others - maybe they have some ideas. I'll think about it, too, and get back to you. Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:13:57 -0600 From: "UIC Web Form Mailerweb_mailer"@uic.edu To: femsfweb@uic.edu Cc: lauramd@uic.edu Subject: femsf feedback Name: Jerry Savage Email: gjsavag@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu I am a: sf fan\0researcher\0feminist I found this page by looking for: feminist science fiction My comment concerns: question OK to post on bulletin board: bulletin board OK Please respond sometime soon, please My comments are: I'm working with the Feminist Issues Committee in the English Department, developing new graduate-level course proposals in feminist and gender topics. My specialty is technical communication, and I started out developing a Gender and Technology syllabus. I decided to include a unit on feminist science fiction in this course, and that led me to your site. What I want to emphasize in this unit is the technology aspect. Hence, I don't think I want to get into utopias and fantasy unless there is a fairly clear technology aspect to those stories. I've been a casual reader of SF for many years, but I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to know which writers would be most important. At this point I do think Slonczewski will be high on the list. Can you recommend other titles? My final list can only include about five or six books because the majority of the course will deal with nonfiction. I can see this unit ultimately becoming a course in itself. We have already begun discussing that possibility, although I'm not so sure I would be the best one to teach it. Thanks for any help you can give. Thanks also for a great website. Jerry Savage ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:07:32 -0800 Reply-To: essency@warp6.cs.misu.nodak.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janet E. Essency" Organization: Gordon B. Olson Library Minot State University 500 University Ave.West Minot, ND 58707-0001 Subject: marge piercy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As you happened to mention Marge Piercy in your annoucement about this list, I thought I would throw out a question to the group(Is there one yet?) about her. I have never read anything by her. One of the people I work with is so gung-ho about her that she arranged for her to come to campus next month. So what do anothers think about her as a writer? And hasn't she only written a couple of books that can be classified as SF? Am interested in any & all opinions. Janet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:53:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: marge piercy In-Reply-To: <333AC574.6040@warp6.cs.misu.nodak.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Of the works I've read by her (about half), she's written three that are SF. WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME -- which is fantastic, one of my all-time favorite books, and a must-read for any feminist OR any science-fiction OR any utopian scholar. DANCE THE EAGLE TO SLEEP -- I liked it a lot, very political, very much about youth & revolution. Not as science-fictiony as WOTEOT or HE SHE AND IT but still definitely an alternate (near) future. Although it was written in the 70s, taking place in the late 70s early 80s as a possible future. HE SHE AND IT -- very, very good. If you like cyberpunk, are a librarian, interested in information or gender issues, or like Jewish imagery, this would be of interest. Her other works are all realistic in nature but pretty good. Everything I've read by her rates from "pretty well" to "one of my all-time favorites". On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Janet E. Essency wrote: > As you happened to mention Marge Piercy in your annoucement about this > list, I thought I would throw out a question to the group(Is there one > yet?) about her. > I have never read anything by her. One of the people I work with is so > gung-ho about her that she arranged for her to come to campus next > month. So what do anothers think about her as a writer? And hasn't she > only written a couple of books that can be classified as SF? > Am interested in any & all opinions. Janet > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:29:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Liz Henry Subject: Marge Piercy She is a great poet, too-- one of my favorites along with Anne Hebert Liz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:23:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Marge Piercy Janet, I saw your question on the feministsf list. As far as I can tell, yes, she has only written two books that could be classified as science fiction: HE, SHE AND IT and WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME. Both are well worth reading, particularly the latter. I haven't looked at it for years, and now that it's the 90s suspect it might read as hopelessly idealistically in parts, but when I read it in the late 70s, I thought it marvellous--interesting, moving, frightening, thought-provoking. Well worth a try. HE, SHE AND IT is a little more difficult to quantify. I think it's a good novel--a well-written, always interesting retelling/revisiting of the Golem of Prague story--but the background appears to be lifted wholesale, without criticism, from Gibson's work, which in my opinion is a mistake. And it bothered me that Piercy thanks Gibson so profusely in the foreword (or introduction, or preface, or whatever she calls it). I would still recommend it, though. One of her non-sf works I'd also recommend is SMALL CHANGES--a much, much better (and earlier) version of THE WOMEN'S ROOM. I'm quite envious of you getting to meet her next month, and of you having the pleasure of reading her work for the first time. Enjoy. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 18:28:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Marge Piercy In-Reply-To: <970327162357_-834868117@emout13.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Janet and Nicola, Having more recently read Woman on the Edge of Time and Small Changes, the non-science fiction book Nicola mentioned, I have to concur that both are very dated. I loved He, She and It for the exploration of artificial intelligence/life issues from a woman's perspective. I've recommended it to many women friends who all appreciated it, even those who don't regularly read sci-fi (I know, they must be forgiven.). And on a political note I have to say I appreciated the visibility of lesbian characters in He, She and It (as in many of Piercy's other work). Something I value greatly in Nicola's work as well, having just read Slow River and Ammonite. It may be interesting to ask Piercy about her experiences as a general fiction writer who has written two pieces of very popular and highly respected science fiction. While science fiction is not her principal genre is there something compelling about the power to speculate and extrapolate into the future which appeals to feminist authors? I'm also thinking of Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale, which is another example of a feminist author 'occasionally' writing science fiction. Happy to have joined the list, Robin. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 18:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Marge Piercy Robin, yes, that would be an interesting question for Piercy, plus this one: How does she feel about her publishers (in the UK, anyhow) refusing to acknowledge that she *does* write SF; and refusing (or perhaps just neglecting) to add to her bio the fact that she has won the Arthur C. Clarke Award. This is something I'd also like to ask Theodore Roszak, whose MEMOIRS OF ELIZABETH FRANKENSTEIN won last year's Tiptree award, but whose publishers, again, made no mention of that fact when the book was reprinted in trade paperback format. I get so tired of this ridiculous double-think on the part of literary snobs: SF is no good, therefore if this SF book *is* good, it's not SF. End of rant. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:46:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Daphne Kutzer" Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Re: Marge Piercy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: 27-MAR-1997 19:40:58 I've re-read "Woman on the Edge of Time" fairly recently, and although it is dated in some respects, it isn't in others--the attention to class and race, for one thing. And I still find the utopian world fairly appealing, although not v. likely. I'm less taken with "He, She and It." Yes, a nice reworking of the Golem story, but I thought the characterizations were rather thin. I agree w. Nicola's comment about the snobbishness of publishers. This is true not only where SF is concerned. There are plenty of writers out there who write for both children and for adults, but publishers shudder at mentioning juvenile publications on the jacket of an adult book. The fear is, I suppose, that adults will not buy anything by a "children's" author. So I guess "real literary folks" won't buy stuff from someone who is an SF author? And they may be right about this. I'm thinking of Atwood and my colleagues' reponses to her. (We have a BIG Canadian studies dept here, being only 15 miles from the border). To a person they HATE "Handmaid's Tale", seeing it as being propagandistic and non-literary. In fact, although "Cat's Eye" and "Surfacing" get taught pretty frequently around here in Canadian Lit classes (as do many of her wonderful short stories), "HT" gets taught by those of us teaching women's studies courses. I don't think Atwood would have the reputation she does today if she'd started with "HT" and gotten herself branded as a writer of speculative fiction. Daphne M.Daphne Kutzer Professor of English State University of New York "A word after a word after Plattsburgh, NY 12901 A word is power." voicemail: 518-564-2427 (Margaret Atwood) fax: 518-564-2140 email: kutzerdm@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:30:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Marge Piercy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I too envy Janet for having the opportunity to meet Piercy. My questions for Piercy would be: What do you think of the current state of Feminist Fiction, particularly Sci Fi? Which Fem Sci Fi authors do you read? Piercy writes such powerful poetry. One thing that surprised me about WOTEOT and He, She, and It was that she didn't incorporate poetry, say, like LeGuin did in Coming Home. Enjoying the conversation, Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Mainstream Fiction vs. Sci Fi, Children's Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Following up on Daphne's comments, did anyone else know that LeGuin writes children's fiction? She's often published in Cricket magazine for 8-12 year olds, and has written several children's books that fall in the gender-bender category. (I know because I keep buying them for my 8 year-old grandson!) Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:47:13 GMT0BST Reply-To: s.r.d.french@leeds.ac.uk Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Steven French Organization: University of Leeds Subject: Re: Marge Piercy Although WOTEOT might seem dated I found it interesting that a colleague of mine (who knows more about these things than I) agreed that it might be classed as 'post-modern' because it leaves us in a state of suspension as to whether the central protagonist really does travel to and from the future or is just mad (there's a kind of 'existential modality' involved, to throw in some jargon). I remember a long argument with an American friend over this - she thought the woman was clearly just mad, but then she had a bit of an antipathy to sf. The first Marge Piercy I ever read was one whose title now escapes me but it was about a woman who did judo. It contains a passage about the arrogance of rejecting someone's love for you which made a deep impression on me. Cheers, Steven s.r.d.french@leeds.ac.uk http://www.leeds.ac.uk/philosophy/staff/french/french.htm '... the possibility that one of the identical twins Mike and Ike is in the quantum state E1 and the other in the quantum state E2 does not include two differentiable cases which are permuted on permuting Mike and Ike; it is impossible for either of these individuals to retain his identity so that one of them will always be able to say "I'm Mike" and the other "I'm Ike." Even in principle one cannot demand an alibi of an electron!' (H. Weyl, The Theory of Groups and Quantum Mechanics, 1931, p. 241) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:20:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Marge Piercy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (forwarding this for someone - Sean, I'll fix your account ASAP ) -- friendly list administrator, Laura Quilter --------------------------------------------- Nicola, About the "rant": are you a Dennis Miller fan? -Sean Johnston On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Nicola Griffith wrote: > Robin, yes, that would be an interesting question for Piercy, plus this one: > How does she feel about her publishers (in the UK, anyhow) refusing to > acknowledge that she *does* write SF; and refusing (or perhaps just > neglecting) to add to her bio the fact that she has won the Arthur C. Clarke > Award. This is something I'd also like to ask Theodore Roszak, whose MEMOIRS > OF ELIZABETH FRANKENSTEIN won last year's Tiptree award, but whose > publishers, again, made no mention of that fact when the book was reprinted > in trade paperback format. I get so tired of this ridiculous double-think on > the part of literary snobs: SF is no good, therefore if this SF book *is* > good, it's not SF. End of rant. > > Nicola > > Nicola Griffith > http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Angela Carter question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anybody help this guy? Dan Wood is looking for a biography of Angela Carter, or recordings of her material ... On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 web_mailer@uic.edu wrote: > Name: dan Wood > Email: dwood@emory.edu > > I am a: sf fan\0researcher > I found this page by looking for: science fiction > > My comment concerns: question\0comment > OK to post on bulletin board: bulletin board OK > Please respond sometime soon, please > > My comments are: > Hello sci/fi guys and gals > I have two questions about Angela Carter. > The first is whether there is a biography out about her. > The second is whether there was ever a radio production made of her radio >plays. If so, where could I obtain recordings of those radio plays? > Any help would be great. I have been a fan of Angela's for years. > > Take care, > > Dan > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman --SAB18622.859337440/piglet.cc.uic.edu-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:35:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Christine Roane's project sounds interesting. She appears to be emphasizing positive influences and this made me wonder if others were negatively influenced by early Sci Fi...I was. In my teens I read 1930's - early 1960's Sci Fi, which generally portrayed women as empty-headed, scantily clad sex objects. The few fully clothed women were described either as coy, submissive, though attractive, women more interested in trapping a husband than in saving the universe or plain, irritating, domineering women no man would want. I can't recall a female character in Robert Heinlein's works whose goal in life was anything other than marriage. Even Asimov's (my favorite author) intelligent robot-specialist character, Dr. Calvin, was weird--she didn't want to marry but preferred robots to humans. I.e., early Sci Fi definitely reinforced patriarchal stereotypes and attitudes about women. I was already an adult by the time Star Trek appeared. But the female characters on ST didn't depart too much from the same stereotypes. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:44:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: Women's lib and Bujold In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970326082953.2d97d83e@academic.truman.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I thought the members of this listserv might be interested in the following discussion on the IAFA list. Someone remarked about her students' rejection of what seemed to be the return to the "subjection" of women in Bujold's works. >I do think I know where the reaction you note in >your students is coming from. Partly, it's the inverse reaction of >quite a lot of history when women were told that getting married and >raising kids was the only thing they could do; you're students (was this >in the last section of SF you taught?) are, at a guess, only recently >exposed to feminist history and still reacting strongly because of it. >I know that's how I would probably have reacted at that age (not so long >ago), andit doesn't really surprise me. >Another big factor is, quite frankly, that many of them are now being >socialized to reject the arbirtrariness of such gender role assignments >and being told, with our society's higher value on wage-earning over >child-rearing, that it really is a waste of their time to raise >children. It is, after all, the world's oldest, unremunerated >(financially) profession. >Yes, I agree -- it's not a very highly paid profession (in money), but >-- from my own experience -- it has its own rewards, and I hope to keep >on pointing this out to my students. While reading the discussion above, I couldn't help but remember what happened when I attending an SF writing seminar YEARS ago on the west coast. We had just moved to town, my husband was a brand-new asst. prof., and we had our first, brand-new mortgage which was killing us--and of course, I couldn't find a professional job for awhile--money was tight! My babysitter was suddenly unavailable, and since I was NOT going to miss the seminar, I attended, two-year-old in tow. I sat in the back so she could roam about a bit and not bother anyone, but I got up my courage to ask a question of a female writer (one of my favorites) on the panel who had grown children. I asked her how on earth she had managed to find the time to write. Her reply? Just let your housekeeper take care of the kids! The "toddler" is now 19, and I'll have to admit it took about half of that time before I could pick up my FORMER favorite writer's works again! Getting back to Bujold, I can understand the initial reaction too, but that initial reaction can be used and played off of to uncover the strengths of the female characters. Just picture the strength Miles' mother displayed to, as a female enemy officer, marry an important member of the aristocracy--and over the years totally subvert many of the prejudices against females in the ruling family! Strength of character and courage of convictions don't have to be dominating and overpowering. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:14:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women In-Reply-To: <19970328164511.7819.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Christine Roane's project sounds interesting. She appears to be >emphasizing positive influences and this made me wonder if others were >negatively influenced by early Sci Fi...I was. I too grew up on the Heinlein juveniles. When my daughters insisted they wouldn't read a story "without a heroine," I looked back over Podkayne of Mars and was appalled! I think, though,I avoided too much negative influence because my reading also covered Norton fantasies, Ace Doubles, and the Swallows and Amazons series--all of which had SOME strong women--and when I read Heinline, I was constantly but silently rewriting the "hero" part for ME! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:29:55 -0500 Reply-To: roane@mail.map.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: christine roane Organization: Preferred Company Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith A. Little wrote: > > Christine Roane's project sounds interesting. She appears to be > emphasizing positive influences and this made me wonder if others were > negatively influenced by early Sci Fi...I was. In my teens I read 1930's - > early 1960's Sci Fi, which generally portrayed women as empty-headed, > scantily clad sex objects. The few fully clothed women were described > either as coy, submissive, though attractive, women more interested in > trapping a husband than in saving the universe or plain, irritating, > domineering women no man would want. I can't recall a female character in > Robert Heinlein's works whose goal in life was anything other than > marriage. Even Asimov's (my favorite author) intelligent robot-specialist > character, Dr. Calvin, was weird--she didn't want to marry but preferred > robots to humans. I.e., early Sci Fi definitely reinforced patriarchal > stereotypes and attitudes about women. > > I was already an adult by the time Star Trek appeared. But the > female characters on ST didn't depart too much from the same stereotypes. > > Judith > > ************************************************************************* > Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > *********************************************************************** Judith, Just to let you all know, I do tend to emphasize the positive (that's just me). However, my survey DOES include exploration of negative effects on women / society - like the excellent points you raised in your post. What a savvy, lively group we have here! Christine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:43:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jeanine Pedersen Subject: Re: Influence of Sci-Fi on Women My introduction to SF was through Madeline L'Engle, who did have strong female characters and of course Asimov and Heinlein. I disagree with the premise that Dr. Susan Carter was wierd. I thought she was great -- I loved the idea that you didn't have to play with dolls & could just tinker with stuff. I was only disapointed by the short story "Liar" (I think that was the name of it) where she has a crush on another scientist. Heinlein's female characters could be a little questionable -- some were very strong and others... yuck! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:53:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Angela Carter biography For Angela Carter's biography, I recommend checking out two anthologies of articles & interviews (which range from biography to criticism): _The Review of Contemporary Fiction_ issue on Angela Carter and Tadeusz Knowicki, Fall, 1994 (Vol. 14, #3), and _Flesh and the Mirror: Essays on the Art of Angela Carter_, edited by Lorna Sage (Virago Press, London, 1994). The pieces in each volume range along a spectrum, include a lot of bibliographical references, & many times personal anecdotes by the authors who knew her personally. Timmi Duchamp (L. Timmel Duchamp) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:49:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Marge Piercy Am I a Dennis Miller fan? Uh, no, Sean, not especially.... Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:07:33 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Qhyrrae Michaelieu Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Comments: To: sue hagedorn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi I also grew up on Heinlein and other writers that had no positive female characters. Only gradually did it dawn on me what a misogynist Heinlein was. His female characters started out as strong women, to be admired because they were different from most women (Yeah, what a compliment, Yuck), but usually by the end of the story, these "strong" women ended up being male objectified fantisies. I also identified with the male protagonists. I wonder how that affects one's sense of being a woman, when the positive role models you have are almost all male. Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a transcendence of gender? But now almost all of what I read is written about women characters and written by women. I see it as the need to redress all the old imbalances of what was available when I was a kid. Cheers Qhyrrae Michaelieu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:38:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Angela Carter Biography Apologies to all if this gets posted twice. I tried posting it this morning, apparently to no avail. This is my second attempt. For Angela Carter's biography, I recommend checking out two anthologies of articles & interviews (which range from biography to criticism): _The Review of Contemporary Fiction_ issue on Angela Carter and Tadeusz Knowicki, Fall, 1994 (Vol. 14, #3), and _Flesh and the Mirror: Essays on the Art of Angela Carter_, edited by Lorna Sage (Virago Press, London, 1994). The pieces in each volume range along a spectrum, include a lot of bibliographical references, & many times personal anecdotes by the authors who knew her personally. Timmi Duchamp (L. Timmel Duchamp) vi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Hello! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all! I'm new to this list but have just read through the logs of the last couple of weeks so I can say with certainty that I'm glad to be here! I'm a reference librarian at Michigan State University, and also the library's women's studies specialist. I've been casually interested in science fiction by women (among other reading interests) for a long time, but have recently been pursuing it more actively. It's exciting - there's a whole lot out there to read! Regarding the question of whether science fiction was an influence when I was young - I started watching Star Trek reruns when I was about 10 and for a long time, that *was* science fiction for me. Never read Heinlein; I remember reading the first two or three books of Asimov's Foundation trilogy but didn't like it much; read and enjoyed most of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories. But the SF author I *really* loved as a teenager was Zenna Henderson. (Pilgrimage: The Book of the People; The People: No Different Flesh; The Anything Box) Her stories are full of wonderful strong female characters. At the moment I'm reading The Pillow Friend by Lisa Tuttle. Anybody else read or liked this? Ruth Ann Jones rujones@delphi.com jonesr@pilot.msu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: gender and technology Comments: To: gjsavag@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Responding to the question about sf novels for a course in gender and technology, here are some titles that might be worth considering: The first one that springs to mind is "Trouble and Her Friends" by Melissa Scott; this was published only a few years ago and I am sure the paperback edition is still in print. It's a cyperpunk story set about 100 years in the future. Trouble is a young woman who supports herself doing semi-legal computer security jobs using more or less illegal neural implants. The virtual reality passages of the book are pretty stunning and, in addition to having a lesbian main character, there are additional reflections on gender in the form of observations about how women of both orientations, gay men, and minority men and women make up most of the net "underground" and are the only people willing to use the effective- but-dangerous brain implants. A couple of other suggestions that might fall under the heading of anti-technology, or critiques of the technological society: "Into the Forest" by Jean Hegland (maybe spelled Heglund?) - just published by Calyx Books, and I hear a mainstream publisher has purchased the rights. Takes place in the near future. Two teenage sisters living outside a remote rural town in Northern California have only each other to depend on as American society begins to collapse under the weight of social problems and excessive consumption of natural resources. "The Ragged World" and "Time, Like an Ever-Rolling Stream" by Judith Moffet - twenty years or so into the future, alien visitors come to Earth and decide human beings ought not to be trusted with a planet of their own, since we're destroying the one we have, and so begin to take control of most aspects of material existence, including agriculture, manufacturing, and reproduction, to force human society to adapt to more responsible use of the Earth's resources. As I recall, gender roles of the various characters are not given a great deal of attention, but it would be interesting to see if the differing philosophies regarding care of the Earth are associated with "traditionally" male or female qualities. Best of luck with your course. --Ruth Ann Jones rujones@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Greg Rubinson Subject: Re: Hello! Comments: To: Ruth Ann Jones In-Reply-To: <01IH342MKS769GW0HL@delphi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ruth, I LOVE LISA Tuttle. Have you had a cahnce to read _A Spaceship Built of Stones_? Especially "Husbands" and "Wives"--excellent for a critique of gender roles. I taught them with moderate success to a freshman English class. Any other Lisa Tuttle fans out there? -Greg Rubinson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Identifying with male protagonists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Qhyrrae Michaelieu wrote: "I also identified with the male protagonists. I wonder how that affects one's sense of being a woman, when the positive role models you have are almost all male. Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a transcendence of gender?" Excellent question! In speaking with women about childhood and teen reading habits and the lack of female models, some say they never ID'd with male "heroes." They rejected those stories and instead sought out fiction with strong female characters. I always identified with the male characters, and recall becoming disoriented when the protagonist formed relationships with women, or weak female characters appeared. One could do both--reject the female stereotype AND transcend gender (the first doesn't preclude the second)--and view oneself and others as humans first, females or males second. At least, some of us appear to be much better than men generally are at acknowledging and emphasizing the commonalities among humans, rather than focusing on the differences (gender, race, class, sexual orientation). Perhaps having few female role models contributes to this attitude. Or, it could be a matter of developing the skills necessary to survive as a member of a subordinate class--know your oppressors! Or simply fulfilling the mediator role expected of females? Qhyrrae Michaelieu wrote: "But now almost all of what I read is written about women characters and written by women. I see it as the need to redress all the old imbalances of what was available when I was a kid." I too read mostly female authors now, although for a different reason. The works of many male authors bore me or infuriate me. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:33:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Identifying with male protagonists Comments: cc: pandolfo@macbsd.com In-Reply-To: <19970330125110.22440.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu>; from Judith A. Little on Mar 03, 1997 at 07:57:43AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [Hi. Just a reminder that there are some men who are interested in these topics, too :-) I'm also copying my wife on this as I don't believe that she's subscribed to this list yet.] Qhyrrae Michaelieu wrote: > "I also identified with the male protagonists. I wonder how that affects > one's sense of being a woman, when the positive role models you have are > almost all male. Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a > transcendence of gender?" To which "Judith A. Little" responded: > Excellent question! In speaking with women about childhood and teen > reading habits and the lack of female models, some say they never ID'd with > male "heroes." I find that rather interesting as I tend to identify with the protagonist--which is why I found Piercy's _WOtEoT_ to be painful (but I loved it). Perhaps it's easier for a male since the vast majority of the protagonists in books are male (I expect that's still the case, anyway). In hindsight (perhaps blurred ;-), I don't recall even being disoriented by relationships, although I do recall rolling my eyes at the weak and/or 1-dimensional ("dimensionally-challenged"?) female characters. Moving back to an earlier thread of discussion... I read a lot of Heinlein growing up, and still love his books, but in the last 5-10 years (I'm going on 27 years of age), I've been noticing more his characterizations of men and women. I believe that someone made the point that his women seem to all (eventually) aspire to motherhood above all else. I can't recall any counterexamples, off-hand... I am curious, though, what women thought of a couple of his female characters--specifically Maureen Johnson and Hazel Stone. I'm also curious what folks think of _I Will Fear No Evil_. I'll reserve comment on them for now. I also find it interesting how different people react to Heinlein. My father is gay and he remembered Heinlein as being very anti-homosexual. I rather got the opposite reaction. -allen PS. As a bit of introduction... I'm a computer programmer who has read a fairly wide smattering of sci-fi and some fantasy. I'm starting to read more critically these days. I consider myself a feminist, but I haven't read too much by women. Some authors that I like (and remember right now ;-) are Marge Piercy, Patricia Wrede, Pat Murphy, Sheri Tepper, Diane Duane, and Octavia Butler -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:21:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Identifying with male protagonists In-Reply-To: <19970330103337.38335@puma.macbsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just joined this list. I'm a woman living in Toronto, Canada. Just finished reading the archives, so you're still all a blur in my mind. Someone talked about slowly realising that all Heinlein's women characters were strong, brainy women; except when it came to their relationships with men. I had the same slow discovery. I think it crystallized about the point of _Time Enough For Love,_ and by the time that _Friday_ came out, I couldn't stand to read his writing any more. I've been reading sf in one form or another since I was a kid. I think I was able to find good female (and *child*) role models because I read a lot of kid's fantasy, where my sense is that there were more women and girl protagonists. I did identify with male protagonists, though, and I remember the unconscious splitting of my awareness that I had to do in order to accomplish it. And it wasn't that hard; since most of the protagonists I was reading at the time were adult, and adulthood all by itself was such unknown territory, breasts were just as alien to my concept of self as penises (penii?) But it was still strange. I read a lot of Marvel Comics (didn't like DC so much). Really identified with Thor, the Silver Surfer, the Sub-Mariner and Daredevil. Now, let me recomplicate this: I'm Black. I find it as amusing as horrifying that I managed to convince myself that Daredevil was Black, but ONLY WHEN HE WORE HIS COSTUME. I knew quite well that his alter-ego was a White man, but I got confused if I tried to think about that too much. It was nice when Marvel came out with the African Ororo/Storm character (but girl, that pressed hair has got to go!). But now I'm slightly off topic. When I first discovered the feminist (and new wave, to be fair) writing in sf, my reading of it really took off. It finally stoped being solely escapism and began to have something to say to *me* and the things I was struggling with. I remember devouring Elizabeth Lyn's work, and Ursula Le Guin, and, and... I remember discovering Samuel Delany's _Dhalgren_ and that was mind-blowing, and moving on to read _Triton,_ and for the first time starting to think about was gender means. Someone said something about Whoopi Goldberg having been inspired by Nichelle Nichols. Well, I think Whoopi's repaid the favour, because for me, seeing the movie "Jumping Jack Flash" (anyone remember that? I think it was her first, before she had to go commercial, and it was nominally sf, since so much computer hacking was involved) was the first time I'd seen a character I could identify with up on the big screen. And she got the guy, too. She wasn't the loyal sidekick who gets killed off poignantly near the end and never gets to kiss anyone. -nalo "Words. She knows so many. She knows seven languages, and all of them different, and in all of them she is hungry." -Candas Jane Dorsey, _Black Wine_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:38:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Re: Hello! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >I LOVE LISA Tuttle. Have you had a cahnce to read _A Spaceship Built of >Stones_? Especially "Husbands" and "Wives"--excellent for a critique of >gender roles. I taught them with moderate success to a freshman English >class. Any other Lisa Tuttle fans out there? I haven't read those but will look for them, because I really liked "The Pillow Friend." Finished it last night (I was only half way through when I sent that post) and my God, was the ending ever creepy! --Ruth Ann (both names please, not "Ruth") ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 15:23:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Hello! In a message dated 97-03-30 11:42:04 EST, RUJONES@DELPHI.COM (Ruth Ann Jones) writes: << >I LOVE LISA Tuttle. Have you had a cahnce to read _A Spaceship Built of >Stones_? Especially "Husbands" and "Wives"--excellent for a critique of >gender roles. I taught them with moderate success to a freshman English >class. Any other Lisa Tuttle fans out there? I haven't read those but will look for them, because I really liked "The Pillow Friend." Finished it last night (I was only half way through when I sent that post) and my God, was the ending ever creepy! >> I haven't read _The Pillow Friend_ because I find that Tuttle's later work doesn't hold my interest to the extent that, say, her work in _A Spaceship Built of Stone_ does. The latter is a marvellous collection of short fiction; beautiful, clear, and strong. Some of her later short fiction has, in my opinion, become...oh, I don't know, "unpleasant" is the best word I can come up--unpleasant for sake of unpleasantness: no great insights into anything, no exploration, no mulling, just...unpleasant. (I promise to expand my vocabulary Real Soon Now.) What did you like about _The Pillow Friend_, Ruth Ann? Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:54:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: The Pillow Friend (was: Hello!) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nicola commented: >I haven't read _The Pillow Friend_ because I find that Tuttle's later work >doesn't hold my interest to the extent that, say, her work in _A Spaceship >Built of Stone_ does. The latter is a marvellous collection of short >fiction; beautiful, clear, and strong. Some of her later short fiction has, >in my opinion, become...oh, I don't know, "unpleasant" is the best word I can >come up--unpleasant for sake of unpleasantness: no great insights into >anything, no exploration, no mulling, just...unpleasant. (I promise to >expand my vocabulary Real Soon Now.) > >What did you like about _The Pillow Friend_, Ruth Ann? Oh, well, it wasn't a 'feel good' story, that's for sure! But I did find it fairly compelling. I won't give away the ending, but let me put in a little spoiler space to save anyone who might want to read this later from my preconceptions-- s p a c e t h e f i n a l f r o n t i e r _The Pillow Friend_ follows a young woman, Agnes Grey, from age six to about age thirty. Before her seventh birthday she wishes for a doll that would be alive and tell her stories at night, and she gets her wish, in a way. At first it seems like she's just a kid letting her imagination run away with her. (Anybody here read _Sam, Bangs, and Moonshine_ when they were little?) But, as she gets older, the fantasy intrudes on her life in more overt and disturbing ways. One thing I liked about it was how I kept having to reconsider whether I thought there really was something supernatural going on, or whether Agnes was out of touch with reality. (What most people around her would have called reality, anyway - she was clearly in touch with her *own* reality.) Whichever it is, the 'fantasy' seems to be more fulfilling than anything she can find in so-called real life, and it influences her to do things that, from an outside perspective, don't seem likely to make her very happy. For example, she marries a man who's really a self-centered jerk because he's part of the illusion. To Agnes it doesn't matter what a jerk he is, what she's getting out of the relationship is something else entirely. It's not the kind of book that you enjoy because you grow to care about the characters, even Agnes. She's not unlikeable or impossible to feel sympathy for, but the feeling that she was unknowable got in the way of caring about her. At the end of the book I wasn't sure whether to say "Poor Agnes, she got her wish," or "Lucky Agnes, she got her wish!" But, it was definitely thought-provoking. --Ruth Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:43:30 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gessika Rovario Subject: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Hi all. This is my first post to this list, so feel free to yell at me if I'm not following the protocol. ;^] FE> I was already an adult by the time Star Trek appeared. But the FE>female characters on ST didn't depart too much from the same stereotypes. FE> Judith I agree with Judith about Star Trek. Whenever I bring this up, someone always says "But what about Nichelle Nichols {Uhura}?" Well, she was, in effect, the telephone operator, and she never questioned any order. So, while she was conspicuious, I never saw her as strong. But, I don't think SF {or Fantasy for that matter} in any form had a derogatory effect on the way I felt about myself as a girl or later, as a woman. But then, I was raised in the seventies/eighties, so there were many more strong sci-fi fems out there. Gessi gessika.rovario@eriss.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:01:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: sf influences, and heinlen In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just have to start by saying how much I'm enjoying this list. I posted once earlier, but didn't introduce myself. I'm from Toronto (hi Nalo! happy to see a local crowd), I'm a lawyer, currently serving injured workers with compensation problems, an out & proud lesbian, and a long time science fiction fan (among a host of other identities). I'm fortunate that my first real introduction to sf was when my older sister gave me the first Women of Wonder collection, I think I was around 10. I'd read L'Engle but hadn't really thought about sf as a genre. I loved WOW and began reading other works by the women in it. In particular I read a lot of Marion Zimmer Bradley at first, and while I see her work with a more ciritical eye now I still have a very warm place in my heart for her work. I think my love of science fiction was nurtured by the fact that I started out reading only works by women. Later I decided I should broaden my horizons and read some of the much lauded male authors. I consulted a male friend who was also a big sf fan and he suggested Heinlein's Friday to me. When I started it I felt violently assaulted myself at the gang rape scene, and horrified by the female character's reaction to it. It was years before I would read another sf book written by a man, and while I've enjoyed some Asimov and other things it's still rare for me to read works by men. Looking for good new feminist sf has become itself a pleasure for me, a treasure hunt I indulge in when I can find time. Some of my favourite authors include Melissa Scott, Pamela Sargeant, Bradley, Nancy Kress, Joan Vinge, Vonda McIntyre, and many more. Robin. "I view it as something of a nightmare that the sodomites are so brazen." Bigot Jesse Helms ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:41:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:14 3/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Christine Roane's project sounds interesting. She appears to be >>emphasizing positive influences and this made me wonder if others were >>negatively influenced by early Sci Fi...I was. > >I too grew up on the Heinlein juveniles. When my daughters insisted they >wouldn't read a story "without a heroine," I looked back over Podkayne of >Mars and was appalled! I think, though,I avoided too much negative >influence because my reading also covered Norton fantasies, Ace Doubles, >and the Swallows and Amazons series--all of which had SOME strong >women--and when I read Heinline, I was constantly but silently rewriting >the "hero" part for ME! > Me, too. _Space Cadet_ didn't have any women in it, but I never could see why not, so I wrote myself in as a candidate. Looking back, I think the general a-sexuality of juvenile SF helped there. Since none of the 'men' were really interested in women, the role-reversal aspect didn't bother me at all. Anything they could do, I could do at least as well. Martha Bartter Truman State University mbartter@truman.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women In-Reply-To: <199703311748.LAA95542@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > always says "But what about Nichelle Nichols {Uhura}?" Well, she was, > in effect, the telephone operator, and she never questioned any order. > So, while she was conspicuious, I never saw her as strong. True, but we should also consider her historical circumstance. When TOS came on, just her presence was groundbreaking, not to mention the interracial kiss thing (of course, then we could get into the politics of oversexualizing women of color). I'm sure you've heard the standard story of Nichols being talked out of quitting by Martin Luther King because her very presence -did- make an impact, and then the standard story later of Mae Jameison (or however you spell it), "the black woman" astronaut, going into the space program because of Uhuru. There are times when even visibility alone is radical and progressive. Cheers, Laura Sells ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:49:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Daphne Kutzer" Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Lt. Uhuru MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: 31-MAR-1997 14:45:52 SLightly off topic, but I can't resist. Sunday's NY Times reported that one of the Heaven's Gate people who killed himself was Nichelle Nicols' brother. [Insert Twilight Zone music here]. RE: influence of SF on women. I didn't read a whole lot of SF as a kid, primarily because it was *so* male oriented and also way too technological- -who cared about the space engine, I wanted to know about the people! I did , however, like Bradley and Zenna Henderson (is that her name? looks slightly wrong to me), and lots of Ray Bradbury--the spooky stories as well as "Martian Chronicles," which I adored. Looking back, it was stories where people and their stories predominated, not where science predominated , that got me going. (Oh--I also like John Wyndham, and still do). And when "Women of Wonder" came out, I was hooked. I'm still pretty durned picky about what SF I will read. Daphne M.Daphne Kutzer Professor of English State University of New York "A word after a word after Plattsburgh, NY 12901 A word is power." voicemail: 518-564-2427 (Margaret Atwood) fax: 518-564-2140 email: kutzerdm@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NH: I heard that the character of Uhuru was supposed to be much more than an overgrown phone operator, but that the show started to get some scary letters, including death threats, about a Black woman's presence on the show, and the producers got scared and pressured Roddenberry into writing her role smaller and smaller. -nalo On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Laura Sells wrote: > > always says "But what about Nichelle Nichols {Uhura}?" Well, she was, > > in effect, the telephone operator, and she never questioned any order. > > So, while she was conspicuious, I never saw her as strong. > > True, but we should also consider her historical circumstance. When TOS > came on, just her presence was groundbreaking, not to mention the > interracial kiss thing (of course, then we could get into the politics of > oversexualizing women of color). I'm sure you've heard the standard story > of Nichols being talked out of quitting by Martin Luther King because her > very presence -did- make an impact, and then the standard story later of > Mae Jameison (or however you spell it), "the black woman" astronaut, going > into the space program because of Uhuru. There are times when even > visibility alone is radical and progressive. > > Cheers, > Laura Sells > "Words. She knows so many. She knows seven languages, and all of them different, and in all of them she is hungry." -Candas Jane Dorsey, _Black Wine_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:22:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Mainstream Fiction vs. Sci Fi, Children's Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Judith: Yes... Did my graduate work on children's sci fi -- she wrote a trilogy called THE EARTHSEA TRILOGY that she later (20 years or so) came back to, writing a fourth book called TEHANU. Pretty complex, and perhaps not a young adult book at all. (I'm still thinking it through, anyway.) Has anyone read Le Guin's essays -- DANCING ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD-- ? -Lissa >Following up on Daphne's comments, did anyone else know that LeGuin writes >children's fiction? She's often published in Cricket magazine for 8-12 >year olds, and has written several children's books that fall in the >gender-bender category. (I know because I keep buying them for my 8 >year-old grandson!) > > Judith > > > >************************************************************************* >Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > >*********************************************************************** elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:58:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sitting in my office late at night -- had to add to Judith's discussion. I never read Sci-Fi until college, when I took Len Hatfield's class (here at Virginia Tech) called "Speculative Fiction." I don't know if he disguised the course title for those students like me who would have never ever ever taken a course on what we thought was bimbos and blasters pulp, or if he used the new titling to better explain the emerging/growing genre. We certainly didn't read Heinlein or Asimov, so I don't quite know enough about the works I so readily scoff. All I know about such authors comes from my sad, albeit quiet, dismay of the cover designs on such texts. (I am one of those who gravitates towards beautiful covers. Yes.) The only woman I know who can wear such fashions displayed on such covers is Sherah, Princess of Power. And her hair and horse are both pink. I have not read any Marge Piercy. I will. -lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 01:16:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a >transcendence of gender? >Qhyrrae Michaelieu Qhyrrae: I think, for me, it did neither, thank goodness. I never read Heinlein or any of the others that are being discussed... but in all the other genres the problem seemed to be the same: too few strong women. Remarkably, the first strong women I found were in Sci-Fi... the one's I read in college. Le Guin's in particular. Especially the women in TEHANU. I also read Samual Delaney's novels (can't remember the titles right now) and found myself, there, too. These women seem to be not so much technical, as they are of old-world-intuition- strong witch-mother types. So it's kinda strangely nifty that the genre that started from technical ponderings and progress glorifying (and portraying females as only sex objects) grew into a genre where women protagonists use/find their strenth from sources, perhaps stronger, than technology... also... i wonder about our word "hero." perhaps this word implies too much of what we are NOT looking for in a female character. (the linear hunt -- the tackle -- the bagging of the goods.) Which reminds me of Le Guin's essay called "The Carrier Bag of Fiction." There, she writes that novels are good because they are stories about people -- rather than heroes. hmmmm....must reread. -Lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:05:35 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Mainstream Fiction vs. Sci Fi, Children's Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Le Guin's also done some wonderful books for younger children, the Catwings series of low-level chapter books, for example, and several picture books. Mike Levy On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Judith: Yes... Did my graduate work on children's sci fi -- she wrote a > trilogy called THE EARTHSEA TRILOGY that she later (20 years or so) came > back to, writing a fourth book called TEHANU. Pretty complex, and perhaps > not a young adult book at all. (I'm still thinking it through, anyway.) > > Has anyone read Le Guin's essays -- DANCING ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD-- ? > > -Lissa > > > >Following up on Daphne's comments, did anyone else know that LeGuin writes > >children's fiction? She's often published in Cricket magazine for 8-12 > >year olds, and has written several children's books that fall in the > >gender-bender category. (I know because I keep buying them for my 8 > >year-old grandson!) > > > > Judith > > > > > > > >************************************************************************* > >Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > > > >*********************************************************************** > > elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat > > instructor, english pancakes for dinner. > virginia tech > blacksburg, va 24061-0112 > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 >