From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:00:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA60492 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:33:53 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01603 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:34:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA76254; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:17:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 23869 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:17:01 -0600 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA65198 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:06:25 -0600 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 31 Mar 97 23:05:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:05:35 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Mainstream Fiction vs. Sci Fi, Children's Books To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: Le Guin's also done some wonderful books for younger children, the Catwings series of low-level chapter books, for example, and several picture books. Mike Levy On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Judith: Yes... Did my graduate work on children's sci fi -- she wrote a > trilogy called THE EARTHSEA TRILOGY that she later (20 years or so) came > back to, writing a fourth book called TEHANU. Pretty complex, and perhaps > not a young adult book at all. (I'm still thinking it through, anyway.) > > Has anyone read Le Guin's essays -- DANCING ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD-- ? > > -Lissa > > > >Following up on Daphne's comments, did anyone else know that LeGuin writes > >children's fiction? She's often published in Cricket magazine for 8-12 > >year olds, and has written several children's books that fall in the > >gender-bender category. (I know because I keep buying them for my 8 > >year-old grandson!) > > > > Judith > > > > > > > >************************************************************************* > >Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > > > >*********************************************************************** > > elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat > > instructor, english pancakes for dinner. > virginia tech > blacksburg, va 24061-0112 > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:00:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA84872 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:18:26 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28572 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:20:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAB93324; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:09:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22671 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:09:01 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA95524 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:08:03 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA21688 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA10719 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:07:59 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:22:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Mainstream Fiction vs. Sci Fi, Children's Books To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Judith: Yes... Did my graduate work on children's sci fi -- she wrote a trilogy called THE EARTHSEA TRILOGY that she later (20 years or so) came back to, writing a fourth book called TEHANU. Pretty complex, and perhaps not a young adult book at all. (I'm still thinking it through, anyway.) Has anyone read Le Guin's essays -- DANCING ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD-- ? -Lissa >Following up on Daphne's comments, did anyone else know that LeGuin writes >children's fiction? She's often published in Cricket magazine for 8-12 >year olds, and has written several children's books that fall in the >gender-bender category. (I know because I keep buying them for my 8 >year-old grandson!) > > Judith > > > >************************************************************************* >Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > >*********************************************************************** elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:00:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA71968 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:08:28 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00534 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:08:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA95266; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:45:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 23211 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:45:01 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA37170 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:43:46 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA25526 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA03833 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:43:40 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:58:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Sitting in my office late at night -- had to add to Judith's discussion. I never read Sci-Fi until college, when I took Len Hatfield's class (here at Virginia Tech) called "Speculative Fiction." I don't know if he disguised the course title for those students like me who would have never ever ever taken a course on what we thought was bimbos and blasters pulp, or if he used the new titling to better explain the emerging/growing genre. We certainly didn't read Heinlein or Asimov, so I don't quite know enough about the works I so readily scoff. All I know about such authors comes from my sad, albeit quiet, dismay of the cover designs on such texts. (I am one of those who gravitates towards beautiful covers. Yes.) The only woman I know who can wear such fashions displayed on such covers is Sherah, Princess of Power. And her hair and horse are both pink. I have not read any Marge Piercy. I will. -lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:00:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA53080 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:33:54 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01579 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:33:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA57322; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:03:21 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 23689 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:03:20 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07678 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:01:46 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA27718 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA09864 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:01:44 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 01:16:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Does it lead to a rejection of the female or a >transcendence of gender? >Qhyrrae Michaelieu Qhyrrae: I think, for me, it did neither, thank goodness. I never read Heinlein or any of the others that are being discussed... but in all the other genres the problem seemed to be the same: too few strong women. Remarkably, the first strong women I found were in Sci-Fi... the one's I read in college. Le Guin's in particular. Especially the women in TEHANU. I also read Samual Delaney's novels (can't remember the titles right now) and found myself, there, too. These women seem to be not so much technical, as they are of old-world-intuition- strong witch-mother types. So it's kinda strangely nifty that the genre that started from technical ponderings and progress glorifying (and portraying females as only sex objects) grew into a genre where women protagonists use/find their strenth from sources, perhaps stronger, than technology... also... i wonder about our word "hero." perhaps this word implies too much of what we are NOT looking for in a female character. (the linear hunt -- the tackle -- the bagging of the goods.) Which reminds me of Le Guin's essay called "The Carrier Bag of Fiction." There, she writes that novels are good because they are stories about people -- rather than heroes. hmmmm....must reread. -Lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:07:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA209782 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:13:55 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09055 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:14:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA63942; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:51:20 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 41988 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:51:19 -0600 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA73554 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:50:25 -0600 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 97 07:34 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:34:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: Oh, those covers! I think my history of reading sf has been one of ignoring the evidence of my eyes. Friends who read 'serious' literature roll their eyes in alarm when they look at my bookshelves. I've given up pleading that there's real writing between those covers. I've read whole Samuel Delany novels, looking in vain for the people portrayed on the cover (and being quite happy not to find them, but wondering what in the world the publisher was thinking). And I've heard snatches of an sf writer's filksong that laments, "there's a bimbo on the cover of my book." Publishers pick the cover art, and it seems they have little respect for the intelligence of their readers. I wonder how many potential readers they scare away brass-bra'd bimbos? I think that Warner has done well by Octavia Butler with the paperback editions of her work, and I was pleasantly stunned to realise that the Ace paperback cover of Emma Bull's _Bone Dance_ responds excellently to the contents. -nalo On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Sitting in my office late at night -- had to add to Judith's discussion. > I never read Sci-Fi until college, when I took Len Hatfield's class (here > at Virginia Tech) called "Speculative Fiction." I don't know if he > disguised the course title for those students like me who would have never > ever ever taken a course on what we thought was bimbos and blasters pulp, > or if he used the new titling to better explain the emerging/growing genre. > We certainly didn't read Heinlein or Asimov, so I don't quite know enough > about the works I so readily scoff. All I know about such authors comes > from my sad, albeit quiet, dismay of the cover designs on such texts. (I > am one of those who gravitates towards beautiful covers. Yes.) The only > woman I know who can wear such fashions displayed on such covers is Sherah, > Princess of Power. And her hair and horse are both pink. > > I have not read any Marge Piercy. I will. > > -lissa > > elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat > > instructor, english pancakes for dinner. > virginia tech > blacksburg, va 24061-0112 > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > "Words. She knows so many. She knows seven languages, and all of them different, and in all of them she is hungry." -Candas Jane Dorsey, _Black Wine_ From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:02:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA170304 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:29:56 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03314 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:30:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21288; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:05:20 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 31514 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:05:18 -0600 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (dns.wesleyan.edu [129.133.12.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA92094 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:53:32 -0600 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25813 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:53:31 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > also... i wonder about our word "hero." perhaps this word implies too much > of what we are NOT looking for in a female character. (the linear hunt -- > the tackle -- the bagging of the goods.) Which reminds me of Le Guin's > essay called "The Carrier Bag of Fiction." There, she writes that novels > are good because they are stories about people -- rather than heroes. > hmmmm....must reread. Perhaps it does, but is there a better choice? Le Guin asserts that the proper place for the hero is the epic, or at least not the novel, where s/he can be propped up on a pedestal in a directed, linear narrative. The novel, she argues, is a collection of relationships that can only be distorted by the presence of a hero. I'm not sure. With a looser definition of hero as simply a human ideal, a respected or respectable actor in society, the novel might be considered the ideal place to discuss the hero and his/her relation to society. I don't think the hero has to be one-dimensional or universal. At least I'm writing a thesis that discusses some very different sf protagonists as heroes, most of whom do not follow the classical, linear model. The women I'm writing about quest for wholeness and autonomy, not "the bagging of the goods," except in the most metaphorical sense. Maybe the hero and heroism simply need to be re-defined. I can't be sure that the women I'm writing about are, on some objective scale, heroic, but if they are, they are constructing a more varied heroic. (btw, I'm writing on Heinlein's _Friday_, Butler's _Parable of the Sower_, Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_, Piercy's _He, She, and It_ [heroes w/o heroic narrative], Tepper's _The Gate to Women's Country [heroic narrative w/o a hero], and Russ's _The Female Man_ and Cadigan's _Fools_ as fragmented heroes.) Any thoughts on how we might define the female hero? Could she, or should she, ever follow the classical/traditional model (of departure-initiation-return, mysterious and illustrious birth, dragon-slaying, threshold-crossing, etc.)? Does sf propose a different female hero, do you think, than society or mainstream lit? Questions I'm wrestling with :) Andrea Klein alklein@wesleyan.edu From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:03:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA165016 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:46:10 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10160 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:45:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA79008; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:19:04 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 33291 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:19:03 -0600 Received: from odin.ax.com (odin.ax.com [199.184.188.9]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA45984 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:08:37 -0600 Received: from [199.184.188.101] (ppp101.ax.com [199.184.188.101]) by odin.ax.com (8.8.3/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id KAA07446 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:07:32 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:07:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Le Guin and others in new book To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Le Guin is listed for _A Ride on the Red Mare's Back_ in _Great Books for Girls_, with no reference to her other works. It seems to have a lot of choices I agree with, and does list 600 books of various sorts: fiction and non-fiction, divided by reading levels. Other authors listed include Tanith Lee, Brian Jacques, Jane Yolen, Patricia Wrede and Emma Bull. I plan to use it mostly for adding to the library of my toddler boy, but am pleased to see the number of books I've bought through the years for his 11 year old sister that are on the list. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:06:11 1997 Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:33:56 -0600 (CST) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lauramd@tigger.cc.uic.edu To: Tamara Adamson , feministsf@uic.edu Subject: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: This is a question generated from the feminist-sf web pages. Anyone have any ideas for Tamara? (Tamara, I'm cc:ing this question to a feminist science fiction listserve. For more information on research into literary criticisms of dystopias, I'd suggest searching WOMEN'S STUDIES INDEX for feminist critiques of reproductive technology -- there's lots out there -- and the MLA BIBLIOGRAPHY for critiques of dystopias. Both of these databases/indexes should be available at most major university libraries. For search tips try http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/searchterms.html . For more information about this discussion group see http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/feministsflist.html . Good luck.) Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:53:00 -0600 From: "UIC Web Form Mailerweb_mailer"@uic.edu Reply-To: Fem-SFFU maintenance listserve To: FEMSFWEB@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: femsf feedback Name: Tamara Adamson Email: adam1153@blue.univnorthco.edu I am a: sf fan\0researcher\0feminist I found this page by looking for: science fiction My comment concerns: question OK to post on bulletin board: bulletin board OK Please respond as soon as possible My comments are: I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank you. From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:07:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA149866 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:44:51 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA06766 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:43:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA84890; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:29:21 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 40958 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:29:20 -0600 Received: from pilot11.cl.msu.edu (pilot11.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24092 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:18:01 -0600 Received: from dell33.lib.msu.edu (dell33.lib.msu.edu [35.8.222.37]) by pilot11.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id SAA129650; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:17:58 -0500 Received: by dell33.lib.msu.edu with Microsoft Mail id <01BC3EC9.9B1933C0@dell33.lib.msu.edu>; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:22:07 -0500 Encoding: 30 TEXT Message-ID: <01BC3EC9.9B1933C0@dell33.lib.msu.edu> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: dystopias and reproductive technology Comments: cc: "adam1153@blue.univnorthco.edu" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Tamara, As Laura suggested, your university library will undoubtedly have the MLA Bibliography, which will lead you to literary criticism on dystopian literature. It will probably also have _Women Studies Abstracts_ which indexes scholarly research in women's studies. Another index which will help you find feminist critiques of reproductive technology is _Alternative Press Index_ which covers feminist magazines and newspapers. There is also a CD-ROM database called _Contemporary Women's Issues_ which includes both scholarly and popular material. Ask your library staff if this is available. Also, the following book should provide references to relevant books and articles: Author: Booker, M. Keith. Title: Dystopian literature : a theory and research guide Published: Westport, Conn. : Greenwood Press, 1994. Good luck on your paper-- --Ruth Ann Jones Women's Studies Specialist Michigan State University Libraries From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:08:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA40554 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:43:23 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA13993 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:43:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA95236; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:27:02 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 44110 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:27:01 -0600 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (dns.wesleyan.edu [129.133.12.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA36194 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:25:10 -0600 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25909 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:25:05 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:25:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: You might try _Utopian and Science Fiction by Women: Worlds of Difference_. by Jane L. Donawerth and Carol A. Kolmerten. Syracuse: Syracuse UP, 1994. Also, _Dream Revisionaries: Gender and Genre in Women's Utopian Fiction 187-1920_. by Darby Lewes. Tuscaloosa, AL: The U of Alabama Press, 1995. and a thesis by Dunja M. Mohr. _Female Dystopia_. Marburg, Germany: s.n., 1994. (Though I found some of her conclusions questionable, particularly her, I thought, simplistic breakdown of the field into sf as the modern form of the utopian tradition. Her bib is pretty good, though, and her documentation is great once she gets into her examples.) also Rabkin, Eric S., Martin H. Greenberg, & Joseph D. Olander. _No Place Else: Explorations in Utopian and Dystopian Fiction_. Carbondale, IL: Southern Illinois UP, 1983. Good luck, Andrea Klein On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Laura Quilter wrote: > Name: Tamara Adamson > Email: adam1153@blue.univnorthco.edu > > I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and > what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would > be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist > literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank > you. > From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:09:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA39976 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:25:43 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18792 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:26:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA84796; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:11:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45588 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:11:01 -0600 Received: from splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu (PMDF@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu [137.142.18.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA48184 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:10:16 -0600 Received: from SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU by SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-4 #11626) id <01IH7GF9Y3FQ00TXGL@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU> for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 01 Apr 1997 22:10:07 -0500 (EST) X-VMS-To: IN%"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <01IH7GF9Y3FS00TXGL@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:10:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M. Daphne Kutzer" Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Dystopias, utopias, etc. To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Date sent: 1-APR-1997 22:08:49 There has been a fair amount written on this subject, none of which I have at the top of my brain (and I'm too lazy to rummage in the file cabinet). But I'm reminded of a novel I love, on the subject of a single-sex worl: Laura Gom's "The Y Chromosome." Anybody else know it? I think she's a Canadian writer. Anybody wants, I'll post a short plot summary. Daphne M.Daphne Kutzer Professor of English State University of New York "A word after a word after Plattsburgh, NY 12901 A word is power." voicemail: 518-564-2427 (Margaret Atwood) fax: 518-564-2140 email: kutzerdm@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:09:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA189014 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:53:09 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA25270 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:53:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA52430; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:43:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 48657 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:43:01 -0600 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA75760 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:41:33 -0600 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 1 Apr 97 23:41:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:41:27 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: dystopias and reproductive technology To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <01BC3EC9.9B1933C0@dell33.lib.msu.edu> Status: RO X-Status: Joan Canty gave a paper on this topic at the 1996 Science Fiction Research Association conference in Eau Claire, WI. She would probably be able to give you a lot of references. Her address is joancanty@ucr.campus.mci.net. Michael Levy levymm@uwec.edu From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:09:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA197076 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:13:21 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA26051 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:13:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA86112; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:57:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 49028 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:57:01 -0600 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA97468 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:56:26 -0600 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 1 Apr 97 23:56:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:56:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SF Canon? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Lissa, Just got back from an sf con where I was on a panel on women sf writers. Here are some suggestions: Eleanor Arnason-- A Woman of the Iron People (Tiptree winner) Octavia Butler-- The Xenogenesis trilogy and Parable of the Sower Suzy McKee Charnas-- The Motherlines trilogy Helen Collins-- Mutagenesis Suzette Haden Elgin-- The Native Tongue trilogy M.J. Engh-- Rainbow Man Karen Joy Fowler-- Sarah Canary Kathleen Ann Goonan-- Queen City Jazz Nicola Griffith-- Ammonite (Tiptree winner) and Slow River (Nebula nominee) Gwyneth Jones-- White Queen (Tiptree winner) and North Wind Marge Piercy--He, She and It Rachel Pollack--Unquenchable Fire Michaela Rossner--Vanishing Point Melissa Scott--Trouble and Her Friends, Shadow Man, Night Sky Mine, Dreamships Joan Slonczewski--A Door into Ocean, Daughter of Elysium, The Wall Around Eden Sheri J. Tepper--Grass, The Gate to Women's Country, Beauty, A Plague of Angels, Gibbon's Decline and Fall Elisabeth Vonarburg--Reluctant Voyager, In the Mothers' Land, The Silent City Connie Willis--Doomsday Book Mike Levy From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:09:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA227534 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:55:44 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA22911 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:57:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA66394; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:47:04 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47351 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:47:03 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA33738 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:46:48 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA22627 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA27261 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:46:45 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Influence of Sci Fi on Women To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Andrea wrote: >Perhaps it does, but is there a better choice? > >Le Guin asserts that the proper place for the hero is the epic, or at >least not the novel, where s/he can be propped up on a pedestal in a >directed, linear narrative. The novel, she argues, is a collection of >relationships that can only be distorted by the presence of a hero. > >I'm not sure. With a looser definition of hero as simply a human ideal, >a respected or respectable actor in society, the novel might be considered >the ideal place to discuss the hero and his/her relation to society. I >don't think the hero has to be one-dimensional or universal. At least I'm >writing a thesis that discusses some very different sf protagonists as >heroes, most of whom do not follow the classical, linear model. The women >I'm writing about quest for wholeness and autonomy, not "the bagging of >the goods," except in the most metaphorical sense. > >Maybe the hero and heroism simply need to be re-defined. I can't be sure >that the women I'm writing about are, on some objective scale, heroic, but >if they are, they are constructing a more varied heroic. (btw, I'm >writing on Heinlein's _Friday_, Butler's _Parable of the Sower_, Piercy's >_Woman on the Edge of Time_, Piercy's _He, She, and It_ [heroes w/o >heroic narrative], Tepper's _The Gate to Women's Country [heroic narrative >w/o a hero], and Russ's _The Female Man_ and Cadigan's _Fools_ as >fragmented heroes.) > >Any thoughts on how we might define the female hero? Could she, or should >she, ever follow the classical/traditional model (of >departure-initiation-return, mysterious and illustrious birth, >dragon-slaying, threshold-crossing, etc.)? > >Does sf propose a different female hero, do you think, than society or >mainstream lit? > >Questions I'm wrestling with :) > >Andrea Klein >alklein@wesleyan.edu hmmm... you've obviously thought this through much more than I... ((I write email in the middle of the night with my newborn attached to me, breastfeeding, like some alien parasite; though I feel quite the modern feminist (call me cyberboob), there's something about babycare that makes me into a blithering idiot.)) first of all, i'm wondering if women can become better heroes through sf because it is, after all, another world altogether... a world where, just perhaps, there hasn't been male domination (etc..). but, first, i must go back and try to define what hero means to me. and the word, i'm afraid, has never felt like something i could attach myself to -- because it seems male. hero is someone who saves the day. mighty mouse. superman. and the means by which these people (?) save the day, conquer evil, and destroy the bad guy, is usually through violence and, sometimes, machinery.(of course women are violent, too... but you know what i mean.) hero's are the ones who went out and attacked the big animal, brought it back to the group to feed. Le Guin, in her essay "The Carrier Bag of Fiction," shows that our culture has developed from the hunter-gatherer society: women were usually the gatherers, and men, hunters. Unfortunately, she shows, stories about gathering oats were overshadowed by the stories of Ooom Ooom who wrestled the beast using technicalities and group planning. this was the story we heard. it was male, violent, and of the hero. the hero is the one who tries to get the most stuff-- and i can see ties to our medeivial world of kings and rings: the one with the most land and biggest mead hall wins. aka: the one who rapes and pillages and has the most sons wins. the hero story seems to be one of possession -- of materials and beings. (Tom Gardner's _Grendel_ comes to mind). so, yes: science fiction -- or speculative fiction (as it need not include science/technology/progress) -- seems to be the perfect arena for creating a new kind of woman-of-strength. women-that-are-admirable-by-other-women. who, then, in this genre do i admire? who seems to be a good "hero" to me? the woman in Le Guin's _Tehanu_.... the young woman main character in Delaney's _Neveryona_ ... the women in _Always Coming Home_ ... how would i then define the female hero? simply as a woman i'd like to be for a day. a female character who could, perhaps, wear a brass-nursing-bra. a female character who knows that we don't have to sit on big daddy's lap to be feminist: that a strong woman might be one who does not want to play the male game of climbing the ceo ladder... a female hero would be strong of her own right, rather than being measured on a male's scale. a woman who has choices, and makes the nifty ones. because of our history (HIS), to break out of what binds us is more easily accomplished on another planet altogether. so sf is a good place. but not the only place. i love jane eyre... i love mamaday, sula, their eyes were watching god, the woman behind the wallpaper in yellow wallpaper, sylvie in housekeeping... i think i love these women "heros" because they made nifty choices in complicated worlds. hmm. big goofy perplexed smile - lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:09:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA95646 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:18:09 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA26354 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:18:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA38020; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:06:29 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 49268 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:06:27 -0600 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA54420 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:05:14 -0600 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 97 01:05 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:05:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: SF Canon? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Nalo: you are hilarious. NH: :) And here I thought people were just deleting my posts. but i'm surprised you even dare to display your > science fiction for your literary friends to see. i have been known to toss > delaney's novels under my bed (he'd be so pleased) before guests arrived. NH: By the time it occurred to me to do that, the damage had been done. > ah me. the tangled webs. have you read _The Motion of Light in Water_? NH: I have my own Delany shelf. I re-read his autobio often, and just recommended it to a friend today. > > To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. NH: Whee! I'll try to stick mostly to things I've not heard mentioned so far. Other people will have tons more: Elizabeth Lyn's "Chronicles of Tornor" series (The Watchtower, The Dancers of Arun, and Northern Girl); Candas Jane Dorsey's first novel _Black Wine;_ anything by Suzy McKee Charnas, Pat Murphy and Karen Joy Fowler; anything by Sherri Tepper; _Bone People_ by Keri Hulme (you won't think it's sf for the first 7/8ths of it, but hang in there); for that matter, _The Windeater_ by Keri Hulme; I think you already mentioned Gloria Naylor's novel _Mama Day;_ try her _Bailey's Cafe_ (I found it very interesting to compare it with Spider Robinson's "Callaghan's Crosstime Saloon" series); Nancy Kress; _The Gilda Stories_ by Jewelle Gomez; Octavia Butler; _When Fox is a Thousand_ by Larissa Lai; _The Spiral Dance_ by R. Garcia y Robertson--not to be confused with the book of the same title by Starhawk; _Hermetech_ by Storm Constantine; _An Open Weave_ by Devorah Major; _Voodoo Dreams: a novel of Marie Laveau_ by Jewell Parker Rhodes; _I, Tituba: Black Witch of Salem_ by Maryse Conde'; _The Armless Maiden and Other Tales of Childhood's Survivors,_ ed. Terri Windling; the "Snow White, Blood Red" series of re-interpreted folk tales, ed. by Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow (_Snow White, Blood Red,_ _Black Thorn, White Rose,_ _Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears,_ _Black Swan, White Raven_); _The Lusty Man_ by Terry Griggs, and I've always been partial to the Bene Gesserit 'witches' in Frank Herbert's "Dune" series. It would be so cool to be able to control people solely by your tone of voice, and to know that if they still got snippy, you could kill them with a kick. > > perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming > contraditory of terms). NH: Why would it be a contradiction? -nalo "When it rains, why don't sheep shrink?" "Why isn't 'phonetic' spelt the way it sounds?" From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:09:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA80746 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:29:13 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24222 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:28:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA98076; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:15:08 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 48309 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:15:06 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAB80760 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:13:10 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA25842 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA20148 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:13:08 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 01:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: SF Canon? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Nalo: you are hilarious. but i'm surprised you even dare to display your science fiction for your literary friends to see. i have been known to toss delaney's novels under my bed (he'd be so pleased) before guests arrived. ah me. the tangled webs. have you read _The Motion of Light in Water_? To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. you all keep tossing titles around that are all new to me. (the world of sf is only two years old to me. have killed Le Guin; have read most of Delaney; and every story in Norton's Book of SF. i want to read about strong women characters... problem is, the bookstores in good ol' Blacksburg Virginia seem to only carry the old heinlein stuff -- so i don't even know what to ask for. help. perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming contraditory of terms). thanks, lissa elisabeth bloomer sometimes you just gotta eat instructor, english pancakes for dinner. virginia tech blacksburg, va 24061-0112 ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:10:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA200290 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:00:21 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04706 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:02:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA80558; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:55:05 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4170 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:55:03 -0600 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA54102 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:44:02 -0600 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA21670; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from areuter (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22042; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:43:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <33425476.601B@world.std.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:43:34 -0500 Reply-To: areuter@WORLD.STD.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Anne E. Reuter" Organization: iDirect Subject: Heroes and Heroines To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: While there is plenty of romance and adventure in "heroic" literature - Jason and the Argonauts, Odysseus, and hosts of other men and women (Boadicea, for one). Real life heroism can be just as compelling. Most of us understand the heroism of an oppressed person who finally refuses to knuckle under to a system that degrades them - like Rosa Parks. Then there is the heroism of men and women who have kept a troubled community going in times of crises - storms, earthquakes, floods. Stories and books about these people can have more meaning for adults and children, because they illuminate situations that all of us face at some point in our lives. Odysseus' story is great; I enjoy reading different translations of the Odyssey, and three years of high school Latin ensures I will never forget Aeneas. Sci Fi fantasy is fun too read too. But these are myths and fairy tales. Their symbols have meaning and provide entertainment, but it's important to create and read stories about real-life heroes too. I know this debate is going on in the field of history, where many historians work to uncover the day to day lives of the common people in addition to writing about the well documented lives of the powerful. it's a good shift in focus and I hope it continues. From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:10:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA201376 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:53:19 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04485 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:55:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA36346; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:49:02 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4196 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:49:01 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA63544 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:47:29 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA14335 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.81] (hagedorn.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.81]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24926 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:47:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hagedors@mail.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Tamara--You'll probably want to look at Susan Squier's Babies in Bottles: Twentieth-Century Visions of Reproductive Technology. > I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and >what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would >be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist >literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank >you. From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:10:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA225982 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:23:30 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05468 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:25:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA54186; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:15:04 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4387 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:15:03 -0600 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA38832 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:03:56 -0600 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59330; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:02:14 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:02:13 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: Re: question re: dystopias, reproductive technologies & women To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: hi there - 1) there's sureley also something valuable on haraway's "symians, cyborgs and women". if you want me to be more specific i may check the book later (i'm at work now and this book is at home). Antonio Marcos Pereira On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, sue hagedorn wrote: > Tamara--You'll probably want to look at Susan Squier's Babies in Bottles: > Twentieth-Century Visions of Reproductive Technology. > > > > I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and > >what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would > >be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist > >literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank > >you. > From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:10:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA225988 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:23:31 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05470 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:25:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA87310; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:15:14 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4661 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:15:13 -0600 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA95760 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:14:20 -0600 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35128; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:12:30 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:12:29 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: feminist sf canon To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: hi there - On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming > contraditory of terms). 1) this canon thing shall be studied someday as a special kind of obsession found among sf fans by the late twentieth century. but should i vote for such a canon - i mean, for a "feminist sf canon", i'd surely add to the list - Le Guin's "Left Hand" - Russ's "Female Man" - Sterling's "Schismatrix" - Tiptree (But, gee, what to choose among so many things? "Houston", maybe) - Delany, for sure ("Babel-17" would be the more explicit reference; but see what delany thinks on his being labeled a "feminist sf writer" in his _silent interveiews_) there's more, much more on this topic. Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:10:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA132934 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:25:23 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05498 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:26:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24222; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:19:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4713 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:19:02 -0600 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA24134 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:17:25 -0600 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41682; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:15:41 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:15:41 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: donna haraway Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: A hi there - 1) is anyone around interested in haraway? i wonder what she's been doing lately. Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:10:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA86520 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:31:07 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05759 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:32:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA99542; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:25:02 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4770 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:25:01 -0600 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA30162 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:24:18 -0600 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA65172; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:22:36 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:22:36 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: delany To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: hi - 1) in _the motion_ delany obliquely states why he wrote a sf novel with a women as protagonist such as "babel-17". he mentions employment conditions and general prejudice against women, using as an example marilyn hacker's misfortunes at work. he seems to be wanting to state with that book that the sf field could - should? - write with an eye on these problems. very much 60's zeitgeist. 2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. does anyone thinks this is food for thought? Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:11:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA35550 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:38:56 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06000 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:38:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA54178; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:26:46 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4698 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:26:45 -0600 Received: from columba.udac.uu.se (columba.udac.uu.se [130.238.7.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA98264 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:15:40 -0600 Received: from [130.238.50.150] ([130.238.50.150]) by columba.its.uu.se with SMTP id <6811-55676>; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:15:32 +0100 X-Sender: kvetbj@strix.its.uu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:15:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: SF Canon? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: > >To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. you >all keep tossing titles around that are all new to me. (the world of sf is >only two years old to me. have killed Le Guin; have read most of Delaney; >and every story in Norton's Book of SF. i want to read about strong women >characters... >problem is, the bookstores in good ol' Blacksburg Virginia seem to only >carry the old heinlein stuff -- so i don't even know what to ask for. help. > >perhaps we could make a feminist sf canon (if that isn't an overwhelming >contraditory of terms). > >thanks, > >lissa I just composed a suggested reading list for another person and submits it straight off witout much comment as it contains names not hitherto mentioned hear as far as I've seen. Mind you, I only began to subscribe a week ago and haven't had time to read old postings yet. They are not listed in priority order, just assembled. Some are more philosophical in content, some lean more over to space opera, but I like them all for different reasons. 1) Anne McCaffrey has written in all genres available, sometimes in collaboration with others. Always very strong women. Incindentally with women in classic heroic parts, but much more psychologically interesting than their male counterparts usually are. These are her different series: The Ship Who Sang, Partnership (with Margret Ball), The Ship Who Searched (with Mercedes Lackey), The City Who Fought (with M.S. Stirling) and The Ship Who Won (with Jody Lynn Nye). Another series by her: The Death of Sleep (with Jody Lynn Nye), Sassinak (with Elizabeth Moon, actually a very good reverse of a Heinlein story with a woman in the part he cast a man, captured by pirates, sold as a slave, rescued by intergalactic spy and so forth), Generation Warrior (also with Moon), The Dinosaur Planet and The Survivors. Also less technology oriented are the books about the Crystal Singers (Killashandra, Crystal Singer, Crystal something). The Pegasus suite (To Ride Pegasus, Damia, Damia's Children, Lyon's Pride) about ESP developed consciously among certain people and used instead of ordinary technology in a distant Earth future. In the books about the Dragons of Pern (Dragonquest, The White Dragon, Moreta's Ride etc) she moves in a low-tech agrarian society, where the planet Pern get's colonized from Earth. It's not fantasy dragons are genetically designed to substitute for techno travelling modes but also to defend the planet from a space spoor which destroys organic matter. In the Petaybee suite she explores what must be called an ecological storyline, but I won't destroy suspense by saying more than that. A new series begun with the first book called Freedom's Landing. Now that took up a lot of space. I'll simply list the rest of the author's, if anyone's interested in a summary of content of anyone of them just ask. 2) By Elizabeth Moon the trilogy: Hunting Party, Sporting Chance and Winning Colors. 3) Katherine Kerr, Polar City Blues 4) Melissa Scott, Burning Bright 5) Jane Lindskiold, Smoke and Mirrors 6) Vonda McIntyre, trilogy: Starfarer, Nautilus and Metaphase 7) Sheri Tepper, Raising the Stones and other books (think someone mentioned her). 8) Marion Zimmer Bradleys Darkover series of course. Tend's to make me depressed when I read it, but they're good. I'll be back with an introduction of myself when I've more time, but I'm usually suspended in read-only mode as I'm working hard on the final run on my dissertation in Art History. Bi Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Research Assistant Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:11:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA61062 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:59:08 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11293 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:58:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA66926; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:47:05 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 6525 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:47:04 -0600 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA99404 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:46:17 -0600 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA04158; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:46:20 -0500 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id JAA29201; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:46:47 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:46:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: dystopias and reproductive technology To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <01BC3EC9.9B1933C0@dell33.lib.msu.edu> Status: RO X-Status: I had a quick look at my shelf last night, and found _Feminism and Science Fiction_ by Sarah Lefanu, Indiana University Press 1988, which has a couple essays on feminist utopias and women's dystopias. My memory fails me, so I can't say whether I recommend or agree with the pieces. While drawn to feminist dystopias I often find them politically frustrating (or worse), such as Pamela Sargeant's The Shore of Women, the better known and strikingly similar Sheri Tepper book The Gate to Women's Country, and Storm Constantine's The Monstrous Regiment. I didn't think any of these three adequately thought through and challenged common assumptions about biology, sex, and sexual orientation. I was particularly aghast at The Monstrous Regiment, has anyone else read this? Re Nalo's comments on the Brass bra'd bimbos, I love it! I've always referred to this as the "metal bikini" art and fiction. I think I remember reading Marion Zimmer Bradley commenting on her experiences with horrible cover art especially in the early days of her career. I'm impressed with the list of recommendations which has sprung up within a day on this list. I can't think of much to add off the top of my head, I enjoyed a trilogy by Alis A. Rasmussen, I think one's called Revolution's Shore, which I rarely hear mentioned. I can never say enough about Pamela Sargeant's Venus of Shadows. I recently discovered Maureen McHugh's China Mountain Zhang and Half the Day is Night, I particularly liked the former. For cyberpunk I recommend Wilhelmina (sp?) Baird's trilogy. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I view it as something of a nightmare that the sodomites are so brazen." Bigot Jesse Helms From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:12:23 1997 Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:08:08 -0600 (CST) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lauramd@tigger.cc.uic.edu To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Subject: Re: donna haraway In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: I think she just came out with a new book ... there was an interview with her in WIRED in a recent issue. On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira wrote: > hi there - > > 1) is anyone around interested in haraway? i wonder what she's been doing > lately. > > Antonio Marcos Pereira > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman From ???@??? Wed Apr 02 10:53:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21068 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:07:12 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17988 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:04:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA86298; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:39:12 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7628 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:39:10 -0600 Received: from f30.hotmail.com (F30.hotmail.com [207.82.250.41]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA63822 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:38:59 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by f30.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA05940; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 40.33.1.11 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 02 Apr 1997 07:38:25 PST X-Originating-IP: [40.33.1.11] Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <199704021538.HAA05940@f30.hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 07:38:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christopher Smith Subject: Madeleine L'engle To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Any fans out there of Madeliene L'engle? Most of her science fiction is aimed at Young adults, but it certainly is enjoyed by people of all ages... Feminism is a theme that recurs throughout her works (science fiction and otherwise...) There is a relatively new website recognizing the life and works of L'engle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8838/ and also a new email discussion group also focusing on L'engle and her works... Information on that can be obtained from the Web page, or by emailing me. Chris. csmith@mad.scientist.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:39:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA34878 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:55:51 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23461 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:54:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA79840; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:29:06 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9125 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:29:04 -0600 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA48242 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:28:46 -0600 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Wed, 2 Apr 97 11:29 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:29:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: dystopias and reproductive technology To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Robin Gordon wrote: >While > drawn to feminist dystopias I often find them politically frustrating (or > worse), such as Pamela Sargeant's The Shore of Women, the better known and > strikingly similar Sheri Tepper book The Gate to Women's Country, and > Storm Constantine's The Monstrous Regiment. I didn't think any of these > three adequately thought through and challenged common assumptions about > biology, sex, and sexual orientation. I was particularly aghast at The > Monstrous Regiment, has anyone else read this? NH: I'm so glad that someone said this. Much of the reading that's meant the most to me has come from feminist writers, but the fiction can also at times be preachy or simplistic; probably because there's so much to say, they are such complex, all-pervasive issues, and they are topics that inspire such passion. I bought _Monstrous Regiment,_ because I'd so loved other of Constantine's work, particularly the Wraetthu Trilogy. But I couldn't finish _Monstrous Regiment._ I don't even remember what it was about, really, except a revolutionary and a woman living in an oppressive household. I'm afraid I simply lost interest. Which puzzled me. I'm usually rivetted by Constantine's work. But hell, I guess my favourites are allowed to write something that doesn't exactly thrill me every now and again! Better they overextend themselves trying for new heights than that they become formulaic. > "When it rains, why don't sheep shrink?" "Why isn't 'phonetic' spelt the way it sounds?" From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:40:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15852 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:25:11 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03378 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:23:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAB80602; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:41:08 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11123 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:41:07 -0600 Received: from ns.potsdam.edu (ns.potsdam.edu [137.143.110.101]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA80436 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:40:07 -0600 Received: (qmail 26006 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1997 17:48:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 25999 invoked from network); 2 Apr 1997 17:48:52 -0000 Received: from mor8578.potsdam.edu (HELO ?137.143.109.252?) (137.143.109.252) by ns.potsdam.edu with SMTP; 2 Apr 1997 17:48:52 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <19970402174855.26005.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:39:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Dystopias, Reproductive Tech To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Tamara Anderson wrote: "I am doing a paper on Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would be. I am having a hard time finding material on any feminist literary criticisms concerning dystopias. Please help! Thank you." In addition to the recommendations provided by others, check out the bibliographies on the Feminist Sci Fi web site. Re: what a woman's place in a society with bottled babies would be, two traditional feminist answers are--Women would be better off! No, we'd be worse off! First answer comes from Shulamith Firestone and others; second from Adrienne Rich, and others. You should check out Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time for contrast to Huxley. It presents a utopian vision of woman's place in a society with bottled babies. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:40:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA176234 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:25:02 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03341 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:23:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA40646; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:59:07 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11802 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:59:06 -0600 Received: from luna.cas.usf.edu (sells@luna.cas.usf.edu [131.247.200.133]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA54404 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:51:43 -0600 Received: from localhost (sells@localhost) by luna.cas.usf.edu (8.8.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA21368 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:39:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: sells@luna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Re: donna haraway To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Donna Haraway's new book is called "Modest_Witness@second_millennium. FemaleMan_Meets_OncoMouse: Feminism and Technoscience." (NY: Routledge). In the book, she uses Russ's FemaleMan as a central trope for her analysis. From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:40:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA60704 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:19:36 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02895 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:19:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA90892; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:45:12 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11295 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:45:11 -0600 Received: from ns.potsdam.edu (ns.potsdam.edu [137.143.110.101]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA87808 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:44:21 -0600 Received: (qmail 26685 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1997 17:53:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 26667 invoked from network); 2 Apr 1997 17:53:30 -0000 Received: from mor8578.potsdam.edu (HELO ?137.143.109.252?) (137.143.109.252) by ns.potsdam.edu with SMTP; 2 Apr 1997 17:53:31 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <19970402175335.26684.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:44:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Re: SF Canon? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: >To Everyone: i'd like to read more sci-fi and need your suggestions. you >all keep tossing titles around that are all new to me. (the world of sf is >only two years old to me. have killed Le Guin; have read most of Delaney; >and every story in Norton's Book of SF. i want to read about strong women >characters... >problem is, the bookstores in good ol' Blacksburg Virginia seem to only >carry the old heinlein stuff -- so i don't even know what to ask for. help. >lissa I'd suggest you explore Laura Quilter's web site for ideas. Two of my current personal favorite authors are Sherri S. Tepper and Octavia Butler. I've almost exhausted Tepper (her stuff is incredible). I also just finished Gearhart's Wanderground, written in the 70's--amazing and powerful. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:40:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25612 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:32:18 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04262 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:31:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA38656; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:01:25 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11854 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:01:24 -0600 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA40194 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:59:12 -0600 Received: by halcyon.com id AA19151 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:59:05 -0800 Message-ID: <199704021759.AA19151@halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:59:05 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: good stuff to read To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: As Laura's web-site demonstrates, the amount of feminist sf/fantasy/utopian fiction is staggering. Good places for getting reading suggestions can be found in the bibliography of Pamela Sargent's _Women of Wonder: the Contemproary Years_ (currently in print!), & the Tiptree Award website [http:// www.sf3.org/tiptree.html ], where most of the fiction mentioned comes with annotated comments. Many of my favorites have already been mentioned; let me add a few that haven't: Rebecaa Ore, _Gaia's Toys_, _The Illegal Rebirth of Billy the Kid_, _Slow Funeral_ and "The Alien Bootlegger." Bev Jafek's collection of short fiction, _The Man Who Took A Bite Out of His Wife_. Rachel Pollack's _Temporary Agency_. Carol Emshwhiller's _Carmen Dog_, plus her various collections of short fiction, including _The Start of the End of It All_. (Sargent's _Women of Wonder: The Contemporary Years_ has a good story of hers.) Dorothy Bryant, _The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You_. Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's Tale_. Candas Jane Dorsey's collection of short fiction, _Machine Sex...and Other Stories_. Aileen La Tourette, _Cry Wolf_. Sue Thomas's _Correspondence_. And finally, my very favorite sf book of all time, Mary Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_. And "much, much, more," of course, but that goes without saying. From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:41:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA87852 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:33:12 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16095 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:31:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA35114; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:57:13 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 15157 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:57:11 -0600 Received: from geocities.com (mail2.geocities.com [204.7.246.132]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA56006 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:46:58 -0600 Received: from mimer ([194.182.35.83]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24635 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:45:50 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3342B783.1DCE@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:46:11 +0200 Reply-To: dragonskeeper@GEOCITIES.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: The Dragons Keeper Subject: List of author and titles To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: A Hi, all. I hope some of you would take a look at The Dragon Keepers homepage. I am trying to list authors and titles from Science Fiction, Fantasy and some Romance subgenre (Timetravel, paranormal etc.) I happen to include horror by mistake ;) If you have the time to check out your favorite author on my homepage, I would be grateful for additions to the lists I currently have at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ I am specially interested in female writers, but males are fine to :) Sincerly -- Pernille Sylvest http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ More than 800 authors and 4500 titles From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:45:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA133394 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:31:00 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12647 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:32:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07864; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:19:06 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 24362 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:19:05 -0600 Received: from ns.potsdam.edu (ns.potsdam.edu [137.143.110.101]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAB19912 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:17:28 -0600 Received: (qmail 4444 invoked by alias); 3 Apr 1997 02:26:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 4438 invoked from network); 3 Apr 1997 02:26:20 -0000 Received: from dial?port?20.potsdam.edu (HELO ?137.143.110.224?) (137.143.110.224) by ns.potsdam.edu with SMTP; 3 Apr 1997 02:26:20 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <19970403022624.4443.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Mary Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: For L. Timmel Duchamp--You wrote that Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_ was your most favorite sf book of all time. I read it last summer and could not figure it out, how it relates to feminism, I mean. Since the work shows up on everyone's lists of the 'classics' I figure I must be missing something terribly important. Can you explain (bare bones) its significance? Thank goodness I noticed your note about it. At last, maybe a small nagging puzzle can be solved! Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:45:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA120214 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:50:53 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13726 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:52:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA37138; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:39:04 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 24767 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:39:03 -0600 Received: from ns.potsdam.edu (ns.potsdam.edu [137.143.110.101]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA34078 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:37:36 -0600 Received: (qmail 6424 invoked by alias); 3 Apr 1997 02:46:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 6417 invoked from network); 3 Apr 1997 02:46:45 -0000 Received: from dial?port?20.potsdam.edu (HELO ?137.143.110.224?) (137.143.110.224) by ns.potsdam.edu with SMTP; 3 Apr 1997 02:46:45 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <19970403024649.6423.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Fem Sci Fi Canon To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi, All! I just wanted to tell all of you who submitted reading recommendations how much I appreciated receiving your lists. Good job! I've just formed a Fem Sci Fi book discussion group on my campus and your suggestions will really come in handy. Not that we didn't already have enough ideas for books...so many books, so little time. A few words on the 'hero' topic. (I haven't had time to read all remarks yet so may be repeating others' thoughts.) On the face of it, I think a feminist conception of 'hero' must be different from the traditional concept. The ancient stories of the male 'Quest' repeated or rehashed over the ages in Western lit, for instance, nearly always involved abandonment, misuse, betrayal, or death of a helpful woman, without whom the hero could not have succeeded. Check out the _whole_ story of the first Quest, Jason's for the Golden Fleece. Ditto the Arthurian legend for betrayal of woman/women responsible for the success of Arthur. The hero's code: Loyalty to men, yes; to women, no. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:45:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA39540 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:18:35 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17612 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:20:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA92130; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:07:11 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25978 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:07:09 -0600 Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (ghoshal@virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA88224 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:56:02 -0600 Received: from localhost (ghoshal@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA25490 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:55:44 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ghoshal@virtu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:55:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: Y Chromosome, introduction To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <01IH7GF9Y3FS00TXGL@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU> Status: O X-Status: Daphne, I'd be interested in a summary of _The Y Chromosome_. while i'm posting, i 'd like to just say hi to everybody--i'm new on the list, am writing a thesis on sex and gender in science fiction, and am already finding this list really helpful. mala From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:45:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA167106 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:26:03 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17828 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:26:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA48358; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:17:04 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26570 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:17:02 -0600 Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (ghoshal@virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA38142 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:06:38 -0600 Received: from localhost (ghoshal@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id XAA28127 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:06:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ghoshal@virtu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:06:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: brass bras To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: A regarding the recurrent references to brass bras, there's an anthology called _chicks in chainmail_ which looked like it was women writers having fun with heroic sword-and-sorcery cliches. i haven't read it but it looked entertaining. i think the editor might be jessica amanda samuelson. mala From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:46:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA54436 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:48:21 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18983 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:50:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA48356; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:37:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26797 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:37:01 -0600 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA76800 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:26:21 -0600 Received: from akr-oh1-06.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh1-06.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.38]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA60425 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:15:51 -0500 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970402232921.09c71adc@kent.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:15:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Y Chromosome, introduction To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hi Mala-- I'm new to the list too (hi y'all), but I just gave a paper on the gender of fear, where I examined six francophone sf short stories that contained monsters, and tried to determine whether there were any differences between the 3 male and 3 female-authored stories as far as fear went. I actually found more about the figure of the monster itself, but it was fascinating seeing such clear-cut differences between the two sexes... At 10:55 PM 4/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >Daphne, I'd be interested in a summary of _The Y Chromosome_. while i'm >posting, i 'd like to just say hi to everybody--i'm new on the list, am >writing a thesis on sex and gender in science fiction, and am already >finding this list really helpful. > mala > > hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:46:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA186738 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:35:45 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA21682 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:36:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29104; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:21:02 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28105 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:21:01 -0600 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA88034 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:19:35 -0600 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Thu, 3 Apr 97 00:19 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Fem Sci Fi Canon To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <19970403024649.6423.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Status: O X-Status: NH: I'm wary of generalizing too much, but I think that female heros tend to operate in a different mode from the male ones. Male heroism (I'm speaking of heroic *literature*) is often about the 'lone wolf' who defies convention and stands apart. Female heroes seem to act more with a sense of the communities of which they are a part, whether or not they choose to act in concert with those communities. 'Course, as I'm typing this, I'm thinking of exceptions to both statements. So take the comment for what you will. Both ways of acting are ways of bringing about change. -nalo On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Judith A. Little wrote: > Hi, All! > I just wanted to tell all of you who submitted reading > recommendations how much I appreciated receiving your lists. Good job! > I've just formed a Fem Sci Fi book discussion group on my campus and your > suggestions will really come in handy. Not that we didn't already have > enough ideas for books...so many books, so little time. > > A few words on the 'hero' topic. (I haven't had time to read all > remarks yet so may be repeating others' thoughts.) On the face of it, I > think a feminist conception of 'hero' must be different from the > traditional concept. The ancient stories of the male 'Quest' repeated or > rehashed over the ages in Western lit, for instance, nearly always involved > abandonment, misuse, betrayal, or death of a helpful woman, without whom > the hero could not have succeeded. Check out the _whole_ story of the > first Quest, Jason's for the Golden Fleece. Ditto the Arthurian legend for > betrayal of woman/women responsible for the success of Arthur. The hero's > code: Loyalty to men, yes; to women, no. > > Judith > > > > ************************************************************************* > Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > > *********************************************************************** > "When it rains, why don't sheep shrink?" "Why isn't 'phonetic' spelt the way it sounds?" From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:47:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29992 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:46:49 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03742 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:47:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA37176; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:33:20 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 30838 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:33:19 -0600 Received: from rizzo.infobahnos.com (rizzo.infobahnos.com [205.236.175.6]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA89558 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:22:08 -0600 Received: from ppp-0204.infobahnos.com (ppp-0204.infobahnos.com [204.19.114.54]) by rizzo.infobahnos.com (8.7.6/A/UX 3.1) with SMTP id IAA28423 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:22:10 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: maddog@rizzo.infobahnos.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704031322.IAA28423@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:22:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: Re: Y Chromosome, introduction To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi Heather: I'm new to the list as well. I'm particularly interested in Francophone sf (my husband speaks French and my kids are bilingual, but prefer to read in French so far). Anyway, I would like to know what the six stories you examined are, if you don't mind. Also, did you read them in French or in an English translation and if you read them in translation, do you know who the translators are (I'm a translator so I'm interested in anything to do with translating sf). Thanks for any info. Sheryl C. Montreal, Quebec >Hi Mala-- > >I'm new to the list too (hi y'all), but I just gave a paper on the gender of >fear, where I examined six francophone sf short stories that contained >monsters, and tried to determine whether there were any differences between >the 3 male and 3 female-authored stories as far as fear went. I actually >found more about the figure of the monster itself, but it was fascinating >seeing such clear-cut differences between the two sexes... > > >hmaclean@kent.edu >http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ > > From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:47:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA189046 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:09:07 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05001 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:09:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA86048; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:59:07 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 31431 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:59:04 -0600 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA36122 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:57:35 -0600 Received: from akr-oh1-08.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh1-08.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.40]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA95747 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:47:05 -0500 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by piglet.cc.uic.edu id HAA36122 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970403090036.43d71d1a@kent.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Y Chromosome, introduction To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Hi Sheryl! I'm from Switzerland--but I lovelovelove Montreal... =) The six stories are: Duvic, Patrice. ãA.C.E.ä 1978. Lâhexagone hallucinŽ. Ed. GŽrard Klein et. al. Paris: Livre de Poche, 1988. 50-64. (France) Perrot-Bishop, Annick. ãSpirales de lâamour-mŽmoire.ä DŽrives 5. Ed. Jean-Marc Gouanvic. Coll. ãAutres mers, autres mondes.ä MontrŽal: Fictions-Logiques, 1988. 5-40. (Vietnam/ France/ Canada) Petoud, Wildy. ãLa cage et le jardin.ä Univers 1989. Ed. Pierre K. Rey. Paris: Jâai lu, 1989. 203-218. (Switzerland) Rochon, Esther. ãMourir une fois pour toutes.ä Sous des soleils Žtrangers: Anthologie de science fiction quŽbŽcoise. Eds. Yves Meynard and Claude J. Pelletier. Laval, CA: Ianus, 1989. 163-182. (Canada) [written in 1976] Sussan, RenŽ. ãLes dents de lâespace.ä Les insolites. Paris: Deno‘l, 1984. 29-41. (Algeria) Walther, Daniel. ãLe petit chien blanc qui r™dait seul dans les ruines de la ville dŽserte.ä Retour ˆ la Terre 1. Ed. Jean-Pierre Andrevon. Paris: Deno‘l, 1975. 15-42. (France) I read all these in French, but I'm a translator too. In fact, I'm trying to get an anthology of Nouvelle Vague short stories that I translated (with scholarly intro, see my web page) published (it's in the hands of Duke UP at the moment, and contains the Petoud & Walther stories). Nice to meet you! Heather =) >Hi Heather: > >I'm new to the list as well. I'm particularly interested in Francophone sf >(my husband speaks French and my kids are bilingual, but prefer to read in >French so far). Anyway, I would like to know what the six stories you >examined are, if you don't mind. Also, did you read them in French or in an >English translation and if you read them in translation, do you know who the >translators are (I'm a translator so I'm interested in anything to do with >translating sf). Thanks for any info. > >Sheryl C. >Montreal, Quebec > hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 08:47:31 1997 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:24:10 -0600 (CST) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lauramd@tigger.cc.uic.edu To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Subject: Re: brass bras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Editor was Esther M. Friesner. Jessica Amanda Salmonson has edited a number of anthologies, though. On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Mala Ghoshal (NC) wrote: > regarding the recurrent references to brass bras, there's an anthology > called _chicks in chainmail_ which looked like it was women writers having > fun with heroic sword-and-sorcery cliches. i haven't read it but it looked > entertaining. i think the editor might be jessica amanda samuelson. > mala > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 16:11:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA149800 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:34:43 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11948 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:34:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA96298; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:23:08 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 32826 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:23:06 -0600 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA92854 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:22:01 -0600 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id JAA28464 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:15:15 -0600 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970403092905.2c67e410@academic.truman.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:15:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: brass bras To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: At 23:06 4/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >regarding the recurrent references to brass bras, there's an anthology >called _chicks in chainmail_ which looked like it was women writers having >fun with heroic sword-and-sorcery cliches. i haven't read it but it looked >entertaining. i think the editor might be jessica amanda samuelson. > mala > Not Samuelson. Friesner? Anyhow, it's a hoot. Martha Bartter Truman State University mbartter@truman.edu From ???@??? Thu Apr 03 16:12:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA40842 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:56:44 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02159 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:57:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA54468; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:45:15 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 36975 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:45:13 -0600 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA79070 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:43:41 -0600 Received: by halcyon.com id AA28080 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:43:38 -0800 Message-ID: <199704031843.AA28080@halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:43:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: Mary Staton's... To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Judith A. Little wrote: >You wrote that Staton's _From the Legend of Biel_ >was your most favorite sf book of all time. I read it last summer and >could not figure it out, how it relates to feminism, I mean. Since the >work shows up on everyone's lists of the 'classics' I figure I must be >missing something terribly important. Can you explain (bare bones) its >significance? Thank goodness I noticed your note about it. At last, maybe >a small nagging puzzle can be solved! Judith, it's interesting to hear that this book shows up on lists of "classics," since I have yet to meet another s-f person who has read it! To give you a really good sense of how beautifully the book works for me would require my doing a re-read first. Although I often sit down & write about books that make a big impression on me, I've hugged this one close to me in a big, warm, emotional silence. As if it were a deep, personal secret it comforts me to possess. As I think about the weirdness of this attitude, I see that it's not all that surprising, considering how the book, somehow, represents a sort of apotheosis of nurturance-- both in what it describes & in what it does for me emotionally. (& by the way, it's not simply identifying with the child, nor with the parenting adult-- but the entire character of the relationship as a whole, that makes me feel this way.) I believe that of all the feminist science fiction I've read, this novel best describes a way of bringing human beings into the world that would make human reality the brightest, and the most vibrantly creative and beautiful that it could be. Reading about the main relationship in the novel, which is between a child & the adult who is parenting it, not only makes me believe that humans could be more than they have been, but is in & of itself healing. This is a utopia that focuses on the process of how a human being acquires a social identity, & it proposes that the process can be done without damage. It's significance for feminism lies in the fact that until humans can find a way to become social beings without reproducing the hierarchical binary, oppression & its concomitant violence will be inescapable. This is one of those fictions, by the way, where fetuses are grown in vitro. Timmi Duchamp From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:26:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA58658 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:33:32 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21860 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:33:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA47160; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:05:07 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 40888 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:05:05 -0600 Received: from ns.potsdam.edu (ns.potsdam.edu [137.143.110.101]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA28932 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:03:03 -0600 Received: (qmail 5781 invoked by alias); 3 Apr 1997 22:12:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 5771 invoked from network); 3 Apr 1997 22:12:10 -0000 Received: from mor8578.potsdam.edu (HELO ?137.143.109.252?) (137.143.109.252) by ns.potsdam.edu with SMTP; 3 Apr 1997 22:12:10 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <19970403221213.5780.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Staton's -Legend of Biel_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: For Timmi Duchamp--Yes, your few words bring the work into focus. Thanks for taking to time to point out the parenting angle. I'll have to reread it, because I seem to recall noting some unpleasant aspects of this system of creating and educating humans, but can't remember what they were. Thanks, again! Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:28:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA41648 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:03:21 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07127 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:03:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA80414; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:53:06 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47584 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:53:04 -0600 Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (ghoshal@virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA86410 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:52:05 -0600 Received: from localhost (ghoshal@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA27211 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:51:54 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ghoshal@virtu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: longer introduction, fear To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970402232921.09c71adc@kent.edu> Status: RO X-Status: hi everybody! i have a little more time now so i'd like to give a slightly longer introduction. i'm a fourth-year literature/gender studies major at new college in sarasota, florida. i'm starting a senior thesis this spring and (if all goes well) finishing next fall. my general topic is sex and gender in science fiction, so right now i'm just trying to get grounded enough in the material to narrow that down. one thing i've been particularly interested in is how different science fiction authors deal with reproduction and child-rearing. it's exciting to know that there's a really articulate, informed community out there interested in exactly the same authors and books i'm working on. heather, what differences did you find in fear between male and female characters? mala From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:28:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA149056 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:23:21 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA14795 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:24:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA58518; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:06:08 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 50725 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:06:07 -0600 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA83000 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:51:13 -0600 Received: from si.UCSC.EDU (6570@si.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.25]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with SMTP id VAA20046 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by si.UCSC.EDU (8.6.13/4.7) id VAA24188; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:51:10 -0800 X-Sender: gidget@si.UCSC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:51:09 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dena Marie Sexton Subject: HI EVERYONE!!! To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Hi, my name is Dena and I am a Senior Sociology major at UC Santa Cruz. I am going to be applying to grad school in another year and would like to study medical sociology and feminist theory . . . right now (for fun and in preparation for my studies) I am going to begin looking at Feminist Utopias and Dystopias. There was an article some years back proposing the Santa Cruz was a feminist utopia. So, I am going to compare literature and social conditions. I am also interesting in gender and science studies and concepts such as the patient as a cyborg. Well, that is a small introduction to me and my interests. I would love to talk to anyone who has intersecting interests or have any ideas. Thank you! Dena From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:35:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22800 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:20:57 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26290 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:08:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA80266; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:43:15 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 13529 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:43:14 -0600 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA83484 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:30:50 -0600 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OeL00248; Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:25:07 EST X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-11,17-21,26-35 Message-ID: <19970404.142219.12294.0.avs5@juno.com> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:25:07 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: HI EVERYONE!!! To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hello, all. My name is Anne Stuecker and I am a junior majoring in English (with a concentration in Cultural Studies) and Spanish, with a minor in Music (Voice) at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. I was originally going to send this message straight to Dena, but figured I may as well post it on the list. Dena wrote: >There was an article some years back >proposing the Santa Cruz was a feminist utopia. Do you believe this to be true? I just read Kim Stanley Robinson's _Pacific Edge_, from his "Three Californias" trilogy, and I'm currently absorbed with the prospect of California as our nation's utopian center. I've been an East-Coaster all my life (DC is my home) and have never been further west than Kansas, so I'm interested to know more about California and to visit someday. >I am also interesting in >gender and science studies and concepts such as the patient as a cyborg. This, too, is fascinating to me. I feel that the large majority of Americans don't realize the great advancements science is making in the areas of what some would call "dehumanization." For instance, it is highly unlikely that someone has not cloned a human being so far. I mean, come on, we've all seen the "X-Files" (just kidding). Thanks for reading my ramblings. Anne Stuecker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We have to shout above the din of our Rice Krispies. -- The Police ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:38:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA245788 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:18:51 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09456 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:19:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA88208; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:03:03 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17682 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:03:02 -0600 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21490 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:02:39 -0600 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 97 18:03 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:03:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: THANK YOU To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > nalo: wheew. whatalist... thank you. NH: :* I got carried away (she says sheepishly). i suppose a feminist sci fi canon is > contradictory because of the word canon. NH: Ah. Because i have no connections to academe, but a few to the arts world, I've been thinking that 'canon' means the body of work that delineates the progress of a particular art form. So I'm thinking of that process by where a breakthrough in a particular style of artistic representation begets another, as artists respond and react to each other. I've read sf crit. that maintains that sf inspired the New Wave, which inspired feminist sf, which inspired cyberpunk (remember: *reaction* as well as response), which is inspiring: what? Slipstream? sf by lesbigay writers? I don't know, but I'm sure that someone will be telling us soon what the next wave is. -nalo p.s. like your sig quote. > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:38:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA138444 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:10:49 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08802 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:08:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA97032; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:07 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17208 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:05 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA36914 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:35:37 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA05303 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03867 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:35:35 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:50:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: THANK YOU To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: thank you all for your exellent lists... i'm compiling them all together and am going to add them to my humongous list of things i must do before i turn 31. (the 30 list is, well, kaput.) if you guys think of any more, please holler them out at will. nalo: wheew. whatalist... thank you. i suppose a feminist sci fi canon is contradictory because of the word canon.. which, to me, brings up visuals of republican-golf-playing-grey-suit-wearing-blue-haired-60-yr-old-male-profess ors who teach (nay, lecture) all male authors. but, the word canon has other meanings: breeches; church rule; means of discrimination (don't you just love the oed online)... but it could work in terms of "sacred books." -lissa elisabeth bloomer cyberaromatherapy hint #1: spritz a bit of your instructor, english favorite cologne or toilet water on your virginia tech computer screen, or drip a scented votive candle blacksburg, va 24061-0112 on your keyboard. For you romantics: purchase ebloomer@vt.edu one dozen red roses, depetal, and gently toss 540.231.2445 over your hard drive with dramatic flicks. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:39:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA216504 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:48:29 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13835 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:49:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA33722; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:35:07 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19025 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:35:05 -0600 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA49506 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:34:48 -0600 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 97 19:35 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: I can find the Delany quote if I look, but I think that the gist of what he said is that, as supportive as he is of feminism, he will never wear a woman's body and walk in a woman's shoes, any more than a White person could claim to be a Black activist. He, by very nature of being male, is part of that group of people from whom women have/have had to wrest our share of privelege. He says he cannot be inside the experience, but he can walk alongside us. -nalo On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > AMP wrote: > > >2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about > >his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he > >isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a > >man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. > > > >does anyone thinks this is food for thought? > > hmmm. i think anyone who is against rape, against domestic violence, and > all for women being treated well and unbiased in the workplace (i almost > wrote "equal", but i'm working that word through, these days)(we're not > equal... don't want to be)is, in my book, a feminist. what's terrible, > though, is that so many people these days don't want to call themselves > feminist because it would thus label them as ones who are against males in > some way... (which, in many cases, they are... but it seems to be certain > males in particular.) i'm thinking of my freshman (freshpeople) class -- i > asked them "how many of you would call yourselves feminists?" and 1 or 2 > out of a class of 25 would raise their hands. but if i ask "how many of > you are for women being treated equally in the workplace?" or "how many of > you think that women should not have to obey men?" or other questions like > this, and of course, all of them raise their hands. i wish i could be like > Lillian Robinson (who used to teach here at Va Tech) who tells her classes > that if anyone is not a feminist or if anyone doesn't like Virginia Woolf, > they should get out of her class immediately. ha. wish i could muster up > the same ovaries. > > i'm surprised that delaney said that men cannot be feminists. because he > seems to be a sympathetic and empathetic man -- enough to know that the > mind can understand anything, regardless of position. (reminds me of that > senator who said to anita hill, "i'm sorry i don't know what it's like to > be a woman, so i can't begin to understand your situation." -- i think > that's a big ol' cop-out.) > feminism is comprised of both sex-issues and gender-issues. and certainly > not every woman is a feminist. (even though she should be :) > > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:39:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA150828 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:53:36 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11340 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:53:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA88222; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:27:02 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 18073 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:27:01 -0600 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA65118 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:26:04 -0600 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA08529 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA08900 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:25:59 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: AMP wrote: >2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about >his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he >isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a >man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. > >does anyone thinks this is food for thought? hmmm. i think anyone who is against rape, against domestic violence, and all for women being treated well and unbiased in the workplace (i almost wrote "equal", but i'm working that word through, these days)(we're not equal... don't want to be)is, in my book, a feminist. what's terrible, though, is that so many people these days don't want to call themselves feminist because it would thus label them as ones who are against males in some way... (which, in many cases, they are... but it seems to be certain males in particular.) i'm thinking of my freshman (freshpeople) class -- i asked them "how many of you would call yourselves feminists?" and 1 or 2 out of a class of 25 would raise their hands. but if i ask "how many of you are for women being treated equally in the workplace?" or "how many of you think that women should not have to obey men?" or other questions like this, and of course, all of them raise their hands. i wish i could be like Lillian Robinson (who used to teach here at Va Tech) who tells her classes that if anyone is not a feminist or if anyone doesn't like Virginia Woolf, they should get out of her class immediately. ha. wish i could muster up the same ovaries. i'm surprised that delaney said that men cannot be feminists. because he seems to be a sympathetic and empathetic man -- enough to know that the mind can understand anything, regardless of position. (reminds me of that senator who said to anita hill, "i'm sorry i don't know what it's like to be a woman, so i can't begin to understand your situation." -- i think that's a big ol' cop-out.) feminism is comprised of both sex-issues and gender-issues. and certainly not every woman is a feminist. (even though she should be :) -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:40:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA251326 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:23:33 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15209 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:23:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA58482; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:09:11 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19379 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:09:09 -0600 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAB88258 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:08:47 -0600 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 97 20:09 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:09:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: NH: Remembered that I'd read that Delany quotation only yesterday. Sure enough, the book was still on the bed. He says: "I have a great deal of sympathy with a lot of feminist thinking. I couldn't call myself a feminist, however, because I don't think a male *can* be a feminist, no matter how sympathetic he is to women's cause. It's not my fight--it's yours. And I am of the group you will have to take power from, if you're to win that fight--if only the power to oppress you. "How sympathetic then, other than intellectually, can I be? "It's like a white person calling himself a black militant. It just doesn't quite...you know...wash. I can be a feminist "fellow traveler," if you will. But that's it. That was part of my political education. And indeed, when a man started calling himself a feminist, that was the definitive sign he didn't understand what feminism was really about, anyway. "Recently, I've been barraged by a set of books, coming out of academia, all pointing out "male feminists," in which (some) women use the term and men use it also. I grew up in a particular ideological location where not using such a term was simply the custom. These people obviously grew up in another context. Now I must say, as I read these books, I see all the co-optations that I was warned against, that I was taught the custom was instilled to guard against, and that the idea of "male feminist" was claimed to represent." I find it very apt that he says he doesn't want to 'co-opt' our fight, but to be an ally. I very much wanted to take this quotation and show it to a male acquaintance of mine whose so-called 'feminism' sounds very much like 'let me fight this fight for you, dears. You just sit over there and be beautiful. I know you have brains, and I love you for it, and my, you look wonderful in those frocks. Are any of you free for dinner later?' Hmph. I don't know or much care whether you can legitimately hang the word 'feminist' on certain types of male political behaviour that are supportive of women's issues. If they really are being supportive, and not co-opting, and are sensitive to when they need to stand back and let us go to, then I don't mind if people call them feminists. Myself, I'm wary of doing so. I call them allies. -nalo On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: I can find the Delany quote if I look, but I think that the gist of > what he said is that, as supportive as he is of feminism, he will never > wear a woman's body and walk in a woman's shoes, any more than a White > person could claim to be a Black activist. He, by very nature of being > male, is part of that group of people from whom women have/have had to > wrest our share of privelege. He says he cannot be inside the experience, > but he can walk alongside us. > > -nalo > > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > > > AMP wrote: > > > > >2) later on, in _silent interviews_, he explains whatever he thinks about > > >his being labeled "a feminist sf writer". he tells that he thinks he > > >isn't, and shall never be such, because he thinks it's impossible for a > > >man - no matter his sexual preferences - to be actually a feminist. > > > > > >does anyone thinks this is food for thought? > > > > hmmm. i think anyone who is against rape, against domestic violence, and > > all for women being treated well and unbiased in the workplace (i almost > > wrote "equal", but i'm working that word through, these days)(we're not > > equal... don't want to be)is, in my book, a feminist. what's terrible, > > though, is that so many people these days don't want to call themselves > > feminist because it would thus label them as ones who are against males in > > some way... (which, in many cases, they are... but it seems to be certain > > males in particular.) i'm thinking of my freshman (freshpeople) class -- i > > asked them "how many of you would call yourselves feminists?" and 1 or 2 > > out of a class of 25 would raise their hands. but if i ask "how many of > > you are for women being treated equally in the workplace?" or "how many of > > you think that women should not have to obey men?" or other questions like > > this, and of course, all of them raise their hands. i wish i could be like > > Lillian Robinson (who used to teach here at Va Tech) who tells her classes > > that if anyone is not a feminist or if anyone doesn't like Virginia Woolf, > > they should get out of her class immediately. ha. wish i could muster up > > the same ovaries. > > > > i'm surprised that delaney said that men cannot be feminists. because he > > seems to be a sympathetic and empathetic man -- enough to know that the > > mind can understand anything, regardless of position. (reminds me of that > > senator who said to anita hill, "i'm sorry i don't know what it's like to > > be a woman, so i can't begin to understand your situation." -- i think > > that's a big ol' cop-out.) > > feminism is comprised of both sex-issues and gender-issues. and certainly > > not every woman is a feminist. (even though she should be :) > > > > > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > > > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > > > elisabeth bloomer > > instructor, english > > virginia tech > > ebloomer@vt.edu > > 540.231.2445 > > > > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" > P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:40:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA256932 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:30:25 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15459 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:31:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA38142; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:21:10 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19464 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:21:08 -0600 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (dns.wesleyan.edu [129.133.12.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA80140 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:20:35 -0600 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22928 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:20:34 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:20:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: I can find the Delany quote if I look, but I think that the gist of > what he said is that, as supportive as he is of feminism, he will never > wear a woman's body and walk in a woman's shoes, any more than a White > person could claim to be a Black activist. He, by very nature of being > male, is part of that group of people from whom women have/have had to > wrest our share of privelege. He says he cannot be inside the experience, > but he can walk alongside us. I've been wondering about this question of how well experiences translate. I wonder--perhaps because I only become aware of which groups I belong to when I'm immersed in some wholly different ones (e.g. I feel most "female" when I'm amongst males, most American when in Spain, etc.)--I wonder what it means to "wear a woman's body." Are minority experiences really that different? I say this because I know what it is like to feel different from those around me, and also like others around me, but who I feel different from and who I identify with shifts moment to moment. The only lasting part is the emotion (of sameness and difference), not the incident that prompted it. And sometimes I feel alienated from the groups I "belong" to--I haven't yet felt unsafe at night because I am female...but I empathize with those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] alongside" each other? Andrea Klein (sorry not sf-nal, except I guess one could take the discussion into androgynes and cyborgs and other boundary-melters...) From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:41:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA66884 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:33:22 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17341 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:35:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA58616; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:23:05 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19986 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:23:04 -0600 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA38842 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:21:43 -0600 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 97 21:22 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off > boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] > alongside" each other? NH: I agree with you to a certain extent; we are. Come right down to it, we're all human. The 'difference' lies in how one is *treated;* it's an external thing that's imposed upon you. People impose barriers and boundaries differentially on other people. It doesn't stop if one says to the other, "but I'm really the same as you." It's important to *remember* that you're the same, so that you don't get suckered in by the type of propoganda that would have you believe that you and people like you are somehow lesser, and so that when you meet people who freely acknowledge your shared humanity, you're open to them; but it's just as important to be able to recognize and address the boundaries that are there. "That boundary really isn't there" is not an effective way to battle other people's prejudice, particularly when those people are in a position to use their prejudice to limit your access to the world. -nalo > > Andrea Klein > > (sorry not sf-nal, except I guess one could take the discussion into > androgynes and cyborgs and other boundary-melters...) > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:42:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA217290 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:28:15 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22217 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:30:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA70174; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:23:05 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 23176 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:23:04 -0600 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (dns.wesleyan.edu [129.133.12.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA70386 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:22:07 -0600 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA15605 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:22:06 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > > > those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off > > boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] > > alongside" each other? > > NH: I agree with you to a certain extent; we are. Come right down to it, > we're all human. The 'difference' lies in how one is *treated;* it's an > external thing that's imposed upon you. People impose barriers and > boundaries differentially on other people. It doesn't stop if one says > to the other, "but I'm really the same as you." > "That boundary really isn't there" is not an effective way to > battle other people's prejudice, particularly when those people are in a > position to use their prejudice to limit your access to the world. good points. I didn't mean to imply that real boundaries (gender, race, expectations, even height and weight, and other appearance expectations) don't exist in daily life. Our schemas for organizing endless streams of data and experience govern our perceptions: we see generally what we've come to expect to see. These schemas translate too often into prejudices and very real discrimination. Rather, what I intended to say was that, in a more abstract sense, I wonder how different our experiences of salience, of abnormality, of being ignored or condescended to or misjudged or simply pre-judged, really are. I wonder if beyond the particular manifestations of these experiences--salary discrimination, access discrimination, media invisibility or misrepresentation, etc.--most of us experience similar feelings and thoughts. I wonder if we stress the differences between various "oppressions" too much--to me, feminism is broader than that.... especially since I agree with some of the particulars of various feminist thoughts, and wholly disagree with others, and I feel like a woman sometimes and a human, animal, student, jock, atom, other times. This is all to say that if I am not quintessentially a woman or a feminist in all ways at all times, why can't Delany be somewhat a feminist in some ways and some times? Hope I've been clearer this time, but I fear not :) Andrea From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:43:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA44866 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:50:23 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA29307 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:52:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA46064; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:39:07 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25445 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:39:05 -0600 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA88174 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:38:47 -0600 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 5 Apr 97 07:39 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: Ah, now I think I understand. Yes, I agree. Delany understands like a feminist, he acts like a feminist, so what's the diff? Is that part (I know it's only part) of what you're saying? True. I have a male friend who calls himself a feminist, and based upon his actions in the world, I see no reason to contradict him, as opposed to the other guy who just doesn't get it. And I think another part of what you're saying is that often the labels we have to choose in order to identify with one set of experiences or another can only address part of what we are, so saying that one is a feminist doesn't capture all the other things we are, and may not even fully capture what one means by 'being a feminist.' If I bring this back to the sf, while it's fun and useful and edifying to be able to talk about the feminist writers this way, it means I often have to leave out mention of other writers whose work interests me, because they may not be overtly feminist or may not be sf. -nalo On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > > > > > those who do. I just wonder if we are deceiving ourselves in marking off > > > boundaries that divide and enclose--aren't we all just "walk[ing] > > > alongside" each other? > > > > NH: I agree with you to a certain extent; we are. Come right down to it, > > we're all human. The 'difference' lies in how one is *treated;* it's an > > external thing that's imposed upon you. People impose barriers and > > boundaries differentially on other people. It doesn't stop if one says > > to the other, "but I'm really the same as you." > > > > > "That boundary really isn't there" is not an effective way to > > battle other people's prejudice, particularly when those people are in a > > position to use their prejudice to limit your access to the world. > > good points. I didn't mean to imply that real boundaries (gender, race, > expectations, even height and weight, and other appearance expectations) > don't exist in daily life. Our schemas for organizing endless streams of > data and experience govern our perceptions: we see generally what we've > come to expect to see. These schemas translate too often into prejudices > and very real discrimination. > > Rather, what I intended to say was that, in a more abstract sense, I > wonder how different our experiences of salience, of abnormality, of being > ignored or condescended to or misjudged or simply pre-judged, really are. > I wonder if beyond the particular manifestations of these > experiences--salary discrimination, access discrimination, media > invisibility or misrepresentation, etc.--most of us experience similar > feelings and thoughts. I wonder if we stress the > differences between various "oppressions" too much--to me, feminism is > broader than that.... especially since I agree with some of the > particulars of various feminist thoughts, and wholly disagree with others, > and I feel like a woman sometimes and a human, animal, student, jock, > atom, other times. This is all to say that if I am not quintessentially a > woman or a feminist in all ways at all times, why can't Delany be somewhat > a feminist in some ways and some times? > > Hope I've been clearer this time, but I fear not :) > > Andrea > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:44:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA53776 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:50:29 -0600 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06310 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:51:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24330; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:43:04 -0600 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 27239 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:43:02 -0600 Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [204.7.246.133]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA41600 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:42:36 -0600 Received: from 129314942496 (ppp117.bal.tele.dk [194.239.109.57]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA19346 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:35:25 -0800 (PST) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704051735.JAA19346@geocities.com> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 19:39:25 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pernille Sylvest Subject: Sv: List of author and titles To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hi, all Some people found my homepage missing. Sorry for bothering you This should be the correct adress http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ I just checked it, it is there now! But I am more than willing to believe, that Geocities has been moving around with the servers, and thereby prevented access to my homepage. They do that a lot :( to be able to offer the users a better service :) Sincerly Pernille ---------- > Fra: The Dragons Keeper > Til: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Emne: List of author and titles > Dato: 2. april 1997 21:46 > Hi, all. I hope some of you would take a look at The Dragon Keepers homepage. I am trying to list authors and titles from Science Fiction, Fantasy and some Romance subgenre (Timetravel, paranormal etc.) I happen to include horror by mistake ;) If you have the time to check out your favorite author on my homepage, I would be grateful for additions to the lists I currently have at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ I am specially interested in female writers, but males are fine to :) Sincerly -- Pernille Sylvest http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2727/ More than 800 authors and 4500 titles From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:59:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA94722 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:56:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06983 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:56:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24182; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:36:25 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 63757 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:36:24 -0500 Received: from mail3.dial-up.net ([196.26.208.35]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA33126 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:26:08 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a6-jhb-4.dial-up.net [196.26.214.132]) by mail3.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with SMTP id XAA00838 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:26:03 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3348BF1B.4AE7@griffin.co.za> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:32:11 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: About feminism in SF movies. To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hiya all I've just joined. I'm impressed with the amount of mail I got WOW!!!! Anywa to the duscussion I agree Tank Girl was really good and on the topic I'm sure plenty people have seen the Alien series, now that had plenty to say about the topic with old Weaver[probably spelt wrong] having quite a bit of courage and brains compared to the most of the greedy men. That's about all I can say. O seen as some people are asking questions, has anyone read Magie Furey's Artefacts of Power series, they're great and does anyone know if the fourth book is out yet, I'm pulling my hair out in frustration. Thanx Jay-Dragonheart From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:00:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA100276 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:04:18 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07960 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:05:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA64650; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:45:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64171 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:45:13 -0500 Received: from mail3.dial-up.net ([196.26.208.35]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA62692 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:43:07 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a6-jhb-4.dial-up.net [196.26.214.132]) by mail3.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with SMTP id XAA01469 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:43:00 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3348C315.6BB5@griffin.co.za> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:49:09 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Ricks post To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: It's me again. I must say I'm most impressed with Ricks post and I agree whole heartedly but in my case I've never been sexist at all. The women out there might not believe me but it's true, my parents own a restaurant but my mother runs it but only recently. The best thing about it is that out of all the managers and chefs my mother is running the place like an orchestra and the business is making more money now than it ever has. So feminists on here I've been brought up to not make any judgements about anyone because of race or sex. I also agree with your aims and I'm not ashamed to admit it but women can think about more things than a male can. There is a saying that a women could do the work of about 5 men and it's true especially after looking at my mother. Jay-Dragonheart [by the way The movie was good. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:52:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA79010 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:13:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12898 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA94514; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:03:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 49103 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:03:01 -0500 Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA63268 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:52:50 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA07798 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970407085218_922392277@emout02.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:52:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stone Waters MD Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: I do not think that being feminist necessarily has anything to do with one's sex. I am more feminist in my thinking than my wife, or daughter, and certainly more feminist than womens' fashion mags that are more anti-feminist (and less honest) than pornography. Feminists fill different slots under the bell-shaped curve, from the extreme man-bashing feminists to moderates who may even vote republican, from goddess worshipers to atheists, from straights to gays etc. I think one should be concerned more about the content of an author's work than their sex which should be irrelevant except when used as a barometer of society's attitudes. Stone Waters, MD From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:53:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA137640 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:39:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19773 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:40:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA45912; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:31:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 51416 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:31:07 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA80600 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:29:27 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA02102; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:29:26 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id KAA30432; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970407085218_922392277@emout02.mail.aol.com> Status: O X-Status: Happy Monday everyone. I would like to suggest that the tangential discussion going on regarding the age old question "can men be feminists"is a bottomless pit which threatens to consume this list. Of course this is an, at times, interesting and potentially important discussion, I'd like to suggest that this isn't really the place for it, unless discussed with relation to sf (which is possible). While I can only speak for myself I expect other women on this list who are politically involved have been through this discussion more times than we can count, like myself, and don't necessarily want to run through it again here when there are so many interesting issues to discuss with relation to the lists theme of sf and feminism. After reading Stone's post I could have a lot to say in reaction, but just don't think this is the place. On to feministsf: I was thinking on the weekend about sf movies, which I tend to enjoy greatly, whether they're intelligent or just entertaining, everything from the star trek films to bladerunner to 12 monkeys, strange days, etc. I'm not very familiar with the older scifi films. My question is this, can anyone think of sf films they would consider to be feminist? The only two I can think of are: 1. Tank Girl, which I loved and very few people saw. It has a fabulous cartoon riotgrrl quality, great take-no-shit action heroes for young and old girls alike, not to mention the lesbian undertones. 2. The film version of The Handmaid's Tale, which I thought was only ok, I appreciate it's a difficult book to film but still could have been better. Of course I can postulate some of the reasons we see few feministsf movies, hollywood inevitably considers young men the primary audience for sf movies. And hollywood sf movies are big budget, so particularly there no risks of "alternate" themes or work are likely to appear. Is it possible to make good sf on a small budget for the big screen? In solidarity, an "extreme" feminist socialist dyke, Robin Gordon From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:54:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA188490 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:44:58 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03980 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:45:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA96074; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:07:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 53984 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:07:01 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA65210 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:56:24 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id LAA15817; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:54:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:54:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Most large budget sf films seem to me to be lamentably un-feminist.Some, like The Terminator, kind of flirt with the female hero but finally this falters and falls. One low budget SF movie I do remember seeing is called "Friendship's Gift". It stars Tilda Swindon (of "Orlando" fame) and is about an alien and sexless race that sends someone to get the lay of the land. Unfortunately Friendship lands in Beirut during the '74 war(I think). The movie is largely a discussion between a war reporter and the wonderfully ambiguous Friendship (who chose her female form because they deduced from old movies that females would be less threatening). Friendship is baffled at sexual politics providing an outsiders analysis. She finally throws in her lot with local guerillas, not sustaining her outsiders position. Its an interesting and finely drawn experimental movie. Yours, Tanya. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:54:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA66942 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:25:24 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01191 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:21:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA32224; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:05:13 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 54150 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:05:11 -0500 Received: from pilot04.cl.msu.edu (pilot04.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.14]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA64566 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:05:00 -0500 Received: from dell33.lib.msu.edu (dell33.lib.msu.edu [35.8.222.37]) by pilot04.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id MAA91266; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:04:53 -0400 Received: by dell33.lib.msu.edu with Microsoft Mail id <01BC434C.79487B20@dell33.lib.msu.edu>; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:08:59 -0400 Encoding: 37 TEXT, 61 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Message-ID: <01BC434C.79487B20@dell33.lib.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: SF movies, was: Delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for getting us back on track Robin. >My question is this, can anyone think of sf films they would consider to >be feminist? The only two I can think of are: 1. Tank Girl, which I loved >and very few people saw. It has a fabulous cartoon riotgrrl quality, great >take-no-shit action heroes for young and old girls alike, not to mention >the lesbian undertones. 2. The film version of The Handmaid's Tale, which >I thought was only ok, I appreciate it's a difficult book to film but >still could have been better. Of course I can postulate some of the >reasons we see few feministsf movies, hollywood inevitably considers >young men the primary audience for sf movies. And hollywood sf movies >are big budget, so particularly there no risks of "alternate" themes or work >are likely to appear. Is it possible to make good sf on a small budget for >the big screen? Oh, I saw Tank Girl, I loved it! Other feminist sf films... that's not easy. One of my favorite sf films from recent years was "Until the End of the World" (1991, directed by Wim Wenders) which wasn't actively feminist, or even about gender, but at least the portrayal of women didn't make me cringe or want to throw things at the screen. And the idea was extremely cool (it's about the invention of a camera which records images so that blind people can see them.) A few days ago someone mentioned Ursula LeGuin's collection of essays "Dancing at the Edge of the World" which I had just checked out and read about three pages of at that point. Now I've got a bit further and there's an essay about her experiences working with a filmmaker to make "The Lathe of Heaven" into a PBS film. She sounded pretty happy with the result. Anyone seen this? --I haven't. --Ruth Ann Attachment converted: LQ ... Data Leaves:WINMAIL.DAT 3 (????/----) (000019D0) From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:55:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA151610 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:53:46 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11581 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:54:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA32778; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:23:14 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 56368 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:23:11 -0500 Received: from mercury (mercury.kosone.com [199.246.2.198]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA25656 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:12:12 -0500 Received: from am-ki-ri43.kos.net by mercury (SMI-8.6/KOS-SMI-SVR4) id NAA19421; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:12:22 -0400 X-Sender: anniew@kos.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704071712.NAA19421@mercury> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:12:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Annie Wilcox Subject: Friendships's gift To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hello Tanya & others, Looking at the description of this film it sounds rather like a sf (sort of) book I read about fifteen years ago and it's being reissued. It's called "The Euguelion" by Louky Bersianik. Has anyone read it? I read it while I was having my son (or at least *after* having him) and can't remember a darned thing about it. Maybe this is my nudge to reread it? Annie From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:55:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA85584 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:05:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18787 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:04:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAB76644; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:33:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59046 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:33:15 -0500 Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (ghoshal@virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA63296 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:32:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (ghoshal@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA18089 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:32:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ghoshal@virtu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970407085218_922392277@emout02.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: robin, i think your response (or lack thereof) to stone waters showed impressive restraint. i've been reading a lot of james tiptree stories and novellas recently--she seems to have a darker view of human nature in general and male nature in particular than many feminist sf writers. she seems to see male violence and aggression as at least as much a product of biology as of culture. i'm fascinated by her, and i wondered if anyone else had any thoughts on her. mala From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:56:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA40312 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:26:45 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21290 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:25:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA48108; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:59:17 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59464 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:59:16 -0500 Received: from upsmot01.msn.com (upsmot01.msn.com [204.95.110.78]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA48822 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:47:40 -0500 Received: from upmajb04.msn.com ([204.95.110.81]) by upsmot01.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id LAA13686 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:45:13 -0700 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:46:03 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roberta Wolff Subject: Re: SF movies, was: Delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: RuthAnn Wrote: A few days ago someone mentioned Ursula LeGuin's collection of essays "Dancing at the Edge of the World"essay about her experiences working with a filmmaker to make "The Lathe of Heaven" into a PBS film. She sounded pretty happy with the result. Anyone seen this? --I haven't. The fact that the movie was produced by PBS means it was probably sensitively handled. Ursula LeGuin would have had a good experience, unlike some fantasy writer's who have watched their works disappear into the money making maw of "something that would sell," not necessarily say something of the original purpose and message of the writing. But, this is Roberta, who thinks they could have done well without some of the bloody messes in DragonHeart. That was a movie about transformation, not transfusions. I would love to see "The Lathe of Heaven" if it can be obtained on tape. Anybody know about that??? Roberta's Cat-- onegreycat@msn.com greycat1@airmail.net From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:56:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA155956 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:40:55 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22772 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:39:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA87508; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:25:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 60318 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:25:07 -0500 Received: from rizzo.infobahnos.com (rizzo.infobahnos.com [205.236.175.6]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAB73056 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:24:58 -0500 Received: from ppp-0102.infobahnos.com (ppp-0102.infobahnos.com [204.19.114.12]) by rizzo.infobahnos.com (8.7.6/A/UX 3.1) with SMTP id PAA27313 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:24:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: maddog@rizzo.infobahnos.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704071924.PAA27313@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:24:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: Re: Friendships's gift To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: A new English translation was just released a week or so ago. The translation is by Howard Scott and the publisher is Alter Ego Editions of Montreal. Sheryl Curtis Montreal >Hello Tanya & others, >Looking at the description of this film it sounds rather like a sf (sort of) >book I read about fifteen years ago and it's being reissued. It's called >"The Euguelion" by Louky Bersianik. Has anyone read it? >I read it while I was having my son (or at least *after* having him) and >can't remember a darned thing about it. Maybe this is my nudge to reread it? >Annie > > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:56:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA95528 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:09:03 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26035 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:09:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA66756; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:49:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 61048 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:49:07 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA72706 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:48:41 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) id PAA10338; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:46:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: tiptree Comments: To: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Dear Mala- so you've been reading Tiptree, huh? Maybe "The Screwfly Solutiion" or "The Women Men Don't See?"- where the only possible solution for the problems of "invisible" (ie not beautiful) women is to escape to another planet...Yes, Tiptree is increbibly bleak- there is a great article by Lillian Heldreth on the link between sex and violence in Tip's work. I did my MA thesis on her- and Tiptree never saw any way out for women, seeing our present freedom's as an optical illusion. Sisterhood was not powerful in the least. There was an article by someone named something like "Julie Ludetke-Seal" which tried to argue for some kind of transcendence in tragedy in Tiptree's work, but I found it unconvincing. The fate of Margaret Omali in Up the Walls of the World seems emblematic to me- the only way for happiness as (in this case) a gnetially mutilated woman is to become a computer. The body seemed to Tiptree to be a site of enormous pain- and when sex is added to the equation, things become much worse...... Yours, in gloom, Tanya From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:57:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA127220 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:19:05 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27041 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:18:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA75172; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:45:19 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 60536 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:45:17 -0500 Received: from nexus.mtroyal.ab.ca (nexus.mtroyal.ab.ca [142.109.10.3]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA41830 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:34:10 -0500 Received: from MtRoyal.AB.CA by MtRoyal.AB.CA (PMDF V4.3-10 #5924) id <01IHFBOLPHX4E0LL3Q@MtRoyal.AB.CA>; Mon, 07 Apr 1997 13:21:43 -0700 (MST) X-VMS-To: NETMAIL::"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <01IHFBOLQ17EE0LL3Q@MtRoyal.AB.CA> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rick Collier Subject: feminist heroes in SF films To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hello to all of you on the list.... I'd like to introduce myself, but I must admit that I do so with some hesitation since I recognize that I am privileged to have access to the ideas and messages on this list. As a male who has had the unpleasant but good fortune to have several female acquaintances open my eyes over the years to my own ingrained and invisible (to me) sexism, I recognize how easy it is for men to wade into all kinds of conversations and so dominate them that productive discussion is considerably diminished, if not extinguished. I will try to avoid that error. I am most certainly not a feminist -- this would be as impossible a matter for me as claiming to give birth; I have no need to co-opt either nomenclature or territory that rightfully belongs to women. However, I do support the principles, analyses, and goals of feminism, as well as those women who carry the feminist project forward; and mostly I do all that by scrutinizing my own behaviour, staying out of the way, and nailing the chauvanist pigs in my classes. I come to these interests through my larger commitment to Socialism, which I see, broadly, as a political philosophy which, at least in part, attempts to identify oppressed groups and work toward their empowerment. The feminist struggle becomes, then, for me part of a panoply of concerns that includes not only race and class, but also discrimination based on age, ethnicity, ability, height/weight/appear- ance, and (getting back in part to SF in a way), species (I hope I am right in seeing close links between feminsim and environmentalism). Early on in my university studies I recognized the brilliant connections being made in SF by Russ, Tiptree, LeGuin, Charnas, and others, and such insights and writing have continued to fuel much of my intellec- tual life. But enough about me: I am primarily interested in the current dis- cussion of feminist protagonists in the SF film. Most such protag- onists, of course, are simply props for male heroism -- they twist ankles, scream a lot, become helpless and immbolized, and require rescuing. Others (but far fewer) are simply men disguised as women -- the macho mama. However, for me the first film that seemed to provide a real breakthrough in how the female hero was to be viewed is "Alien". Admittedly, the character of Ripley (nicely foiled by Lamb[ert]) becomes more of a "macho mama" later on under the direction of Cameron in "Aliens"; however, I sense that Ridley Scott is doing something rather remarkable in that first film (and, after all, he did direct "Thelma and Louise"). But before I (perhaps all too typically) go on at length, I'd like to see what others think about Ripley as a newly drawn, perhaps feminist, hero. rick c. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 18:58:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA62386 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:11:14 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02816 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:12:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA83322; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:46:22 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 62429 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:46:21 -0500 Received: from luna.cas.usf.edu (sells@luna.cas.usf.edu [131.247.200.133]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA40628 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:45:55 -0500 Received: from localhost (sells@localhost) by luna.cas.usf.edu (8.8.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA15073 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:35:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: sells@luna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:35:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Feminism and Environmentalism (was feminist heroes in SF films) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <01IHFBOLQ17EE0LL3Q@MtRoyal.AB.CA> Status: RO X-Status: Re: the connection b/t feminism and environmentalism in rick c.'s post This connection is called Ecofeminism. An especially relevant source for this list would be Patrick D. Murphy's _Literature, Nature, and Other: Ecofeminist Critiques_ (SUNY, 1995), which discusses LeGuin from an ecofeminist perspective. For ecofeminism in general, see Carol Adams, _The Sexual Politics of Meat_ (good discussion of anthropocentrism), Irene Diamond and Gloria Orenstein, eds. _Reweaving the World: The Emergence of Ecofeminism_, and Karen J. Warren, ed. _Ecological Feminist Philosophies_. These are but a few good starting points in a long bibliography of the intersection b/t feminism and environmentalism. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:00:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA140112 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:10:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08533 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:12:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA82878; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:01:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64272 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:01:02 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA53998 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:49:10 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA04682 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970407174719_-100656617@emout07.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:48:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Feminist SF movies To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Not sure if this qualifies, but it is a distinctly intelligent and peculiar film with a fascinating premise and important female characters (one of whom is played by Jeanne Morreau)--"Until the End of the World." It bears close watching and even at that cannot be absorbed in one viewing. Barbara (lurking on the list) From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:01:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA185868 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:33:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10403 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:35:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA82764; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:01:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64296 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:01:14 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA91618 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:51:10 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA15931 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970407175015_-735917285@emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:50:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Re: SF movies, was: Delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Oh, goody! Someone else who saw "Until the End of the World." I vaguely remember having seen "The Lathe of Heaven" and being disappointed in the usual way, i.e., that it condensed the material of the book in ways that made it unrecognizable to me. But hey, if LeGuin was pleased, who am I to complain? Barbara From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:00:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA174366 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:20:48 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09280 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:21:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA46104; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:05:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64630 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:05:04 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA93556 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:04:53 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA27063 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:58:09 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970407161059.1d2f3962@academic.truman.edu> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: SF movies, was: Delany To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: At 18:46 4/7/97 UT, you wrote: >RuthAnn Wrote: >A few days ago someone mentioned Ursula LeGuin's collection of essays >"Dancing at the Edge of the World"essay about her experiences working with a >filmmaker to make "The Lathe >of Heaven" into a PBS film. She sounded pretty happy with the result. >Anyone seen this? --I haven't. > > Yes, the movie was pretty well done (within very tight budgetary limits, I think) and the main themes came off well. However, I've never been able to locate a vcr copy to show in class... Many of the PBS films are available, but that one is not. Martha Bartter Truman State University mbartter@truman.edu From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:05:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA94168 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:00:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22755 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:01:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA73298; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:49:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 69745 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:49:01 -0500 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25832 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:47:19 -0500 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V_Q18252; Mon, 07 Apr 1997 21:28:05 EDT X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5 Message-ID: <19970407.202453.10174.3.avs5@juno.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:28:05 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hello, all. I just finished reading Octavia Butler's _Parable of the Sower_ and would like to know everyone's thoughts or ideas on the book. Thanks. Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:05:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA162904 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:16:40 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23443 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:17:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA85084; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:05:14 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 70206 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:05:13 -0500 Received: from luna.cas.usf.edu (sells@luna.cas.usf.edu [131.247.200.133]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA55272 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:04:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (sells@localhost) by luna.cas.usf.edu (8.8.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA09046 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:53:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: sells@luna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:53:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <19970407.202453.10174.3.avs5@juno.com> Status: RO X-Status: Gosh I loved that book. It was so very Butler. I think the community that the heroine built is a perfect example of what Haraway calls affinity groups. Haraway and Butler sometimes seemed attached at the hip. The whole concept of California as a third world country run by multinational corporations is so chilling. I was somewhat disappointed in the "seed" metaphor that Butler used, though; I thought it was a bit underdeveloped and not as evocative as some of her other themes. I also thought that the end of the book was sort of flat. But I really liked the consistent theme she exploits of blurred boundaries b/t self and other. And I also like how she treats race, though I haven't thought it through quite clearly. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that aspect of Butler's work? my .02 Laura On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > Hello, all. I just finished reading Octavia Butler's _Parable of the > Sower_ and would like to know everyone's thoughts or ideas on the book. > > Thanks. > > Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:06:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA128844 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:29:46 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26936 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:28:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA31538; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:19:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 71652 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:19:03 -0500 Received: from pimaia2y.prodigy.com (pimaia2y.prodigy.com [198.83.18.95]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA85740 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:08:50 -0500 Received: from mime3.prodigy.com (mime3.prodigy.com [192.168.253.27]) by pimaia2y.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA48828 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:55:16 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by mime3.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id WAB76160 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:06:00 -0400 X-Mailer: Prodigy Internet GW(v0.9beta) - ae02dm02sc06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <199704080206.WAB76160@mime3.prodigy.com> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:06:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: SF movies To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Re: "The Lathe > >of Heaven"... > > > Yes, the movie was pretty well done (within very tight budgetary limits, I > think) and the main themes came off well. However, I've never been able to > locate a vcr copy to show in class... Many of the PBS films are available, but > that one is not. > > Martha Bartter My references say it aired on PBS on Jan. 9, 1980, produced by WNET-TV, New York, where the master copy is evidently being used as a doorstop because it has not (as of 1992, the date of my last guidebook) been released on video. Why John Tesh and Barney made it onto video and Le Guin did not, I dunno... -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:06:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA49336 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:59:48 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28411 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:00:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA73082; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:49:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 72171 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:49:05 -0500 Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA73328 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:38:47 -0500 Received: from frogqueen.earthlink.net (Cust3.Max6.San-Francisco.CA.MS.UU.NET [153.35.236.3]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA27675 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3349B718.3687@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:10:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nomi Liron Organization: Bay Area Frog Kingdom/Royal Palace Subject: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Has anyone else read Sherri Tepper's "Beauty?" It is a wonderful rewriting of some old fairy tales in a sci fi setting. I felt it was almost a magical book. Anyone else? nomi From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:06:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA141818 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:43:58 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00453 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:41:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA65868; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:33:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 73734 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:33:05 -0500 Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA92374 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:21:46 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA23983 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970408001859_956039863@emout01.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hello, I am doing a critical study of Parable of the Sower for a McNair scholar program project and am very interested in the development of the protagonist, particularly what you thought of her development into a self-empowered young woman from her beginnings as a teen in the novel... Jo Ann From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:07:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA189294 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:45:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02847 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:36:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA80170; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:25:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 74878 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:25:03 -0500 Received: from upsmot04 ([204.95.110.86]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA48078 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:24:01 -0500 Received: from upmajb04.msn.com ([204.95.110.81]) by upsmot04 (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id VAA00490 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:25:05 -0700 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:35:39 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roberta Wolff Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Yes, I read BEAUTY and I loved it. It is my sort of fantasy. In my book, that is a prose poem. Roberta's Cat-- onegreycat@msn.com greycat1@airmail.net Has anyone else read Sherri Tepper's "Beauty?" nomi From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:06:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA170934 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:29:48 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02558 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:28:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA51272; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:13:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 74784 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:13:01 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA33244 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:11:58 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 97 00:04:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:04:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3349B718.3687@earthlink.net> Status: RO X-Status: Beauty is a wonderful book, one of Tepper's best, but the scene where the trash chutes get clogged by dead bodies gave me nightmares! Mike Levy On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Nomi Liron wrote: > Has anyone else read Sherri Tepper's "Beauty?" It is a wonderful > rewriting of some old fairy tales in a sci fi setting. I felt it was > almost a magical book. Anyone else? > nomi > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:06:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA170948 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:29:52 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02615 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:30:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA84040; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:21:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 74852 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:21:08 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA91692 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:19:31 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 97 00:12:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:12:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <19970407.202453.10174.3.avs5@juno.com> Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > Hello, all. I just finished reading Octavia Butler's _Parable of the > Sower_ and would like to know everyone's thoughts or ideas on the book. > > Thanks. > > Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA > It's a fine novel, though very different from most of Butler's previous fiction. I just finished writing a paper on Parable and a somewhat similar novel by Jack Womack called Random Acts of Senseless Violence. Both books deal with teenaged girls on their own and surviving in near-future Americas that are going all to hell. I looked at both books in light of Mary Pipher's Reviving Ophelia, Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls. Although I liked Parable of the Sower a lot, I'm still not very comfortable with Lauren's Earthseed religion. The concept is either very profound or very shallow--I haven't made up my mind yet. Question, does Butler want us to see Earthseed as right? Interesting side point. Butler said in a recent interview which appeared in Science Fiction Studies that Lauren does not have any psychic ability to feel other peoples' pain, which is how I (and I think most people) first read it. What she has is a well developed delusion that she can feel other peoples' pain. Mike Levy From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:08:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA155168 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:09:00 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10732 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:10:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA93490; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:05:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 71896 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:05:01 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA46516 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:03:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA08937; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from areuter (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25750; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:03:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334A339E.2B5C@world.std.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:01:35 -0400 Reply-To: areuter@WORLD.STD.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Anne E. Reuter" Organization: iDirect Subject: Octavia Butler on race To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Laura Sells wrote: > And I also like how > she treats race, though I haven't thought it through quite clearly. I > wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that aspect of Butler's work? > Yes, that's what I like about Butler's books. First it's nice to see black people and black women in sci fi. Generally, we are invisible or just a balancing afterthought in a group scene. Race consciousness pervades the lives of racial minorities in any social system, unifying and dividing them in ways the dominant culture is largely unaware of. While many sci fi books are based on struggles between different races or species of individuals - from first contact novels to fantasies in which one group dominates another - few SF writers explore how being visibly identifiable with one group instead of another affects the consciousness and life decisions of the group members. And few SF writers explore the details of people's daily lives where two or more racially distinct groups live side by side, each occupying pretermined roles in their society. Some of Butler's earlier works, such as Wild Seed and Patternmaster, touch on this theme as well. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:09:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA100142 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:14:56 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10857 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:14:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA66694; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:06:21 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 71963 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:06:18 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA46574 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:06:11 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA00543 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.81] (hagedorn.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.81]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07253 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:06:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hagedors@mail.vt.edu References: <19970407.202453.10174.3.avs5@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:06:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: > And I also like how >she treats race, though I haven't thought it through quite clearly. I >wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that aspect of Butler's work? In the Afterword for "Bloodchild" she writes: "It amazes me that some people have seen "Bloodchild" as a story of slavery. It isn't. It's a number of other things, though. On one level, it's a love story between two very different beings. On another, it's a coming-of-age story in which a boy must absorb disturbing information and use it to make a decision that will affect the rest of his life. On a third level, "Bloodchild" is my pregnant man story." S. Hagedorn hagedors@vt.edu From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:12:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA154242 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:13:30 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00211 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:05:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA87434; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:43:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 76851 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:43:03 -0500 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA48784 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:42:33 -0500 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50404; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:32:20 -0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:32:20 -0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: slipstream To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: hi there - On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > hello all. been out of town. nalo: what is Slipstream? 1) afaik it's a label for work on the border between traditional contemporary fiction and sf. bruce sterling wrote about this in a text properly entitled "slipstream". which can be found at his directory on the well gopher. also, spinrad wrote about the term, but i'm not quite sure where. Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:11:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA167536 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:52:00 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21501 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA85182; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:35:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 74759 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:35:04 -0500 Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA85042 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:34:43 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA10000 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970408103411_-668745611@emout02.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:34:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stone Waters MD Subject: Re: delany To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Yes, absolutely, you can make great Sci-fi on small budget. But you have to concentrate on themes and issues and not special effects. Two films which come to mind that have feminist-female leads are 1. the original Terminator (low budget, and arguably one of the best sci-fi flicks ever made) and 2. the Alien movies. Stone Waters MD From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:11:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA112360 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:39:05 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26369 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:34:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA31476; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:19:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 75966 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:19:06 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA31170 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:17:02 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA22429; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:16:36 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id LAA29386; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: feminist heroes in SF films To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <01IHFBOLQ17EE0LL3Q@MtRoyal.AB.CA> Status: RO X-Status: I think there are a lot of interesting questions that could flow from a feminist analysis of the Aliens trilogy. Unfortunately I have to admit I only remember the third, which I've seen repeatedly as it has a certain status amongst many lesbians. The character of Ripley is, in many ways, coded as lesbian in that final film. The shaved head, baggy clothes and take no prisoners attitude, the way she refuses to be intimidated by the men/criminals. her entire appearnace and demeanor run counter to dominant notions of what men find attractive in women, and particularly hollywood's idea of an attractive woman, and yet she carries so much raw sexual energy through the film. But the most interesting question, I think, relates to the fact that both the villain/alien and the hero are female. The motherhood themes are strong throughout the entire series, but less the nurturing mother and more a fierce mother with a drive to procreate and protect her young. The alien-mother-as-villain is not so unusual for hollywood, but it is unusual to see this villain go up against a female hero. The combination allows for the curious identification that the hero develops with the Alien, particularly as she becomes the alien, or at least the alien-host(ie. mother). I think Ripley is a good example of an sf amazon-hero, which goes back to the discussion about women and the traditional idea of a hero. Happily, this amazon escapes the two worst stories for amazons - either the amazon is the villain to be conquered by men as proof of their supremacy, or she is conquered by some over-powering innate heterosexual desire and succumbs to a man, discovering that he's what she really needed all along. The men in Aliens 3 are quite secondary. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I view it as something of a nightmare that the sodomites are so brazen." Bigot Jesse Helms From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:11:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA59204 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:21:17 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24084 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:15:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA78600; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:51:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 75231 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:51:03 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA86332 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:49:22 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA16534 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07351 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:04:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: THANK YOU To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: hello all. been out of town. nalo: what is Slipstream? -lissa if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:11:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA128132 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:21:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24098 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:15:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA78306; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:53:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 75306 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:53:04 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA52668 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:52:57 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA16979 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29393 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:08:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: delany & feminism To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: ok, i know what allies are. then what's your definition of feminist? feminism? anyone? -lissa if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:12:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA184712 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:57:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05983 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:57:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA66882; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:29:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 78108 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:29:03 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA78914 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:27:46 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA00392 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970408122628_-933372715@emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Octavia Butler To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Mike, I'm intrigued by your interesting side point. I've read PARABLE OF THE SOWER three times now (trying to figure out what other readers have liked about the novel--but that's another story). In the text there is nothing, as far as I can see, to indicate Lauren is anything but a reliable narrator: she says she has hyperempathy; she *has* hyperempathy (the ability to feel others' physical sensations--not just pain). At what point do we disbelieve what is written and believe instead the author? At what point and to what extent should the text stand on its own? I don't know if Butler does or does not want us to see Earthseed as "right." Lauren's religion is one of my (many) problems with the book: we see, beautifully articulated, the beginnings of Lauren's philosophy (and I think it is a philosophy to begin with, rather than religion); we understand how she gets from A to B, and then, phhtt, she's suddenly thinks humankind's future is among the stars. She makes a leap of faith that I can't follow--a leap of faith that's not prefigured or explained or believable. At least I didn't find it so. Perhaps I'm simply misreading the text. If anyone has any pointers I'd be happy to hear them. Meanwhile, if anyone is interested I can post or email a review I wrote for the _New York Review of SF_ when the novel first came out. And Mike: I read RANDOM ACTS OF SENSELESS VIOLENCE and thought it was a terrific novel. Heartbreaking. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:13:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24416 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:08 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15385 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA55266; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:09:15 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 80410 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:09:13 -0500 Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA53860 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:08:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (ghoshal@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA12290; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:07:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ghoshal@virtu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:07:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: a bunch of things Comments: To: Tanya Wood To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: tanya--what did you focus on in your tiptree thesis? did you relate her work to any particular feminist theorists? re ecofeminism--i really like susan griffin's _woman and nature_. i've never read any butler but i plan to--what do you-all recommend starting with? nicola, i'd like to see your review of _parable of the sower_. has anyone looked at the haraway book that deals with _the female man_? in closing, this list makes my day. mala From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:14:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA89382 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:56:12 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18818 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:54:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA76716; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:25:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 80913 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:25:07 -0500 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAB83298 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:16 -0500 Received: by halcyon.com id AA13206 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: <199704081824.AA13206@halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:24:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: sf movies To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Anybody seen "Cannibal Women of the Avocado Rainforest Jungle?" (At least I *think* that's the title-- but it could be "Amazon Women" or some other variant.) This is a film that was obviously made by feminists (academics, I feel certain) for feminists. It teems with a myriad details that anyone who isn't a feminist just don't get. (& there are plenty that would probably slide by feminists without at least graduate student experience.) I've watched videos of it numerous times, always with other people. A friend of mine who's a history professor shows it perhaps once a year at an all-women party of mixed students & faculty. Every time I see it I just howl-- & each viewing get more of the jokes. (Of course it also helps if you've read Conrad's _Heart of Darkness_ or-- so I'm told-- seen _Lost Raiders of the Ark_ & _Apocalpyse Now_ --neither of which I've seen.) I usually don't like slapstick-type roll-in-the-aisles humor, but I love this movie. (Yeah, I'm the kind of person men are always telling to "lighten up.") I suppose its magic for me lies in its outrageous premise: that there are two rival groups of militant feminists occupying a huge tract of land ("jungle") in California that the CIA, the marines, & every kind of corporate & government sabatour is powerless to eliminate. (All the marines & CIA agents sent in get eaten-- with either clam dip or guacamole, depending on which feminist faction captures them.) I must say that I've yet to meet a male "fellow traveller" who appreciates this film. The ones I've seen trying to watch it give up because they think it's boring & silly. (Just the way I feel about most movies that are "comedies.") Interesting to hear that I'm not the only person in existence who enjoyed _Until the End of the World._ I got so much pleasure from it that I saw it a second time less than a week after having seen it the first time. Everyone I know who's seen this movie thinks it's badly structured & boring. It does have an unwieldly shape-- but my understanding of the film sees that as inevitable. I didn't take any notes on my thoughts about it, but I do remember talking at length (to whomever would listen) about the insights I felt that film gave me into why the noir form cannot accommodate "role-reversed" female protagonists. The unwieldly shape of the film is the result of its opening with explicit cyber-type noir & later shifting into end-of-the-world sf. I once had some idea for why Wenders might have sutured two such incompatible forms together into one, but it escapes me at this late date. My favorite scene was the moment the EMP strikes, in the small airplane, when the world goes silent & there's just the small, spiraling shadow of the plane on the stark Australian outback below, & a beautiful silence & light all around it, as though the world were holding its breath... Timmi Duchamp From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:14:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA89432 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:56:15 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18823 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:54:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA91098; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:27:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 80996 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:27:06 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA37364 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:25:13 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 97 13:24:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Octavia Butler To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <970408122628_-933372715@emout05.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: Nicola, let me first say that it's a pleasure being in contact with you. I've loved both your novels (taught Ammonite last year in a course on SF and gender), On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Nicola Griffith wrote: > Mike, I'm intrigued by your interesting side point. I've read PARABLE OF THE > SOWER three times now (trying to figure out what other readers have liked > about the novel--but that's another story). In the text there is nothing, as > far as I can see, to indicate Lauren is anything but a reliable narrator: she > says she has hyperempathy; she *has* hyperempathy (the ability to feel > others' physical sensations--not just pain). At what point do we disbelieve > what is written and believe instead the author? At what point and to what > extent should the text stand on its own? You've misread Butler's text slightly (and in exactly the same way that I and evidently just about everyone else misreads it, according to Butler. ) As defined in the text if you look very carefully, hyperempathy isn't actually the ability to feel other peoples' sensations. It's the ability to convince yourself that you're feeling them. Thus, Lauren feels pain when her brother fakes hurting himself if she thinks his pain is real. Similarly, she won't feel even the worst pain if she doesn't consciously realize that the other person or animal is in pain. Same for other emotions. If you have a heartattack right in front of her she won't notice if you're stoic enough. > I don't know if Butler does or does not want us to see Earthseed as "right." > Lauren's religion is one of my (many) problems with the book: we see, > beautifully articulated, the beginnings of Lauren's philosophy (and I think > it is a philosophy to begin with, rather than religion); we understand how > she gets from A to B, and then, phhtt, she's suddenly thinks humankind's > future is among the stars. She makes a leap of faith that I can't follow--a > leap of faith that's not prefigured or explained or believable. At least I > didn't find it so. > I'm glad you feel this way about the "humanity's future is among the stars" stuff. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea (on a gut level I'd like to agree with it I have to admit) , but I don't see its necessary or logical connection to Earthseed as previously presented in the book. Maybe it's just your standard, life-long science fiction fan's thing. The basic idea is common to much SF, particularly to the more conservative stuff written by people like Poul Anderson and Larry Niven, oddly enough. > Perhaps I'm simply misreading the text. If anyone has any pointers I'd be > happy to hear them. Meanwhile, if anyone is interested I can post or email a > review I wrote for the _New York Review of SF_ when the novel first came out. I'll have to check your review. I've got the complete run of the NYReview of SF. Can you give me a citation? > And Mike: I read RANDOM ACTS OF SENSELESS VIOLENCE and thought it was a > terrific novel. Heartbreaking. > > Nicola Again, I'm glad we're in agreement.The New York Times Book Review gave Random Acts the rare "honor" of a mainline review outside of Gerald Jonas's sf ghetto, and then Scott Bradfield (one of those slipstream guys) panned the book and said Womack's language (which I loved) was unreadable. > > Nicola Griffith > http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:14:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA167872 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:59:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19131 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:57:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA73670; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:26:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 80973 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:26:25 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAB76572 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:26:02 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 97 14:26 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:26:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: THANK YOU To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > hello all. been out of town. nalo: what is Slipstream? > > -lissa NH: Damn. Did I use the term? Probably. Not sure I can explain it, because I'm not sure what it means myself. I think it's work that won't be nailed down to genre categories, like Karen Joy Fowler's _Sarah Canary._ Is it a first contact story? Is it a story about a madwoman? No way to be sure. Anyone else have a more clear explanation? Or a correction? -nalo > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:14:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA41166 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:25:18 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22378 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:24:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA66314; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:09:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 81700 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:09:15 -0500 Received: from ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (root@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.59]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA53422 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:59:00 -0500 Received: from miley (miley.ne.uiuc.edu [128.174.163.17]) by ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02015 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:58:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: ljperez@staff.uiuc.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970408140107.0094e260@staff.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Perez" Subject: Re: sf movies To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: I have seen that "Amazon Women of the Avacado Jungle" or whatever the title is. I once saw it on an afternoon movie and couldn't stop laughing for days. I'm dying to see it again, but haven't been able to find it. I thought it was interesting that it seemed to be a really cheap B movie, but had such intellectual content...at least in some ways. >Anybody seen "Cannibal Women of the Avocado Rainforest Jungle?" > (At least I *think* that's the title-- but it could be "Amazon >Women" or some other variant.) This is a film that was obviously >made by feminists (academics, I feel certain) for feminists. >It teems with a myriad details that anyone who isn't a feminist >just don't get. (& there are plenty that would probably slide >by feminists without at least graduate student experience.) I've >watched videos of it numerous times, always with other people. > A friend of mine who's a history professor shows it perhaps once >a year at an all-women party of mixed students & faculty. Every >time I see it I just howl-- & each viewing get more of the jokes. > (Of course it also helps if you've read Conrad's _Heart of Darkness_ >or-- so I'm told-- seen _Lost Raiders of the Ark_ & _Apocalpyse >Now_ --neither of which I've seen.) I usually don't like slapstick-type >roll-in-the-aisles humor, but I love this movie. (Yeah, I'm the >kind of person men are always telling to "lighten up.") I suppose >its magic for me lies in its outrageous premise: that there are >two rival groups of militant feminists occupying a huge tract >of land ("jungle") in California that the CIA, the marines, & >every kind of corporate & government sabatour is powerless to >eliminate. (All the marines & CIA agents sent in get eaten-- >with either clam dip or guacamole, depending on which feminist >faction captures them.) I must say that I've yet to meet a male >"fellow traveller" who appreciates this film. The ones I've seen >trying to watch it give up because they think it's boring & silly. > (Just the way I feel about most movies that are "comedies.") > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:14:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA180314 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:25:34 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22319 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:24:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA77852; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:07:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 81900 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:07:05 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA69652 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:05:36 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 97 15:06 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:06:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: sf movies To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199704081824.AA13206@halcyon.com> Status: O X-Status: NH: Toronto is a big town for film. In 1995 I attended an independent film festival there where I saw an independent feminist sf short called "Odds and Ends." Can't remember the director's name right now. It's a total spoof too, about a galaxy of Black lesbians at war with Zombies. I found it hilarious, down to the really cheesy special effects, but most people didn't share my view. And I don't know if "Daughters of the Dust" fits the definition of speculative fiction, with its pre-born baby ghost girl running as fast as she can to arrive in time to patch a rift between her parents, but that one has a special place in my heart too, as does "Jumping Jack Flash." I was too chicken to watch any of the Aliens movies, much to my chagrin. But horror leaves me sleepless and terrified for days. -nalo On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: > Anybody seen "Cannibal Women of the Avocado Rainforest Jungle?" > (At least I *think* that's the title-- but it could be "Amazon > Women" or some other variant.) This is a film that was obviously > made by feminists (academics, I feel certain) for feminists. > It teems with a myriad details that anyone who isn't a feminist > just don't get. (& there are plenty that would probably slide > by feminists without at least graduate student experience.) I've > watched videos of it numerous times, always with other people. > A friend of mine who's a history professor shows it perhaps once > a year at an all-women party of mixed students & faculty. Every > time I see it I just howl-- & each viewing get more of the jokes. > (Of course it also helps if you've read Conrad's _Heart of Darkness_ > or-- so I'm told-- seen _Lost Raiders of the Ark_ & _Apocalpyse > Now_ --neither of which I've seen.) I usually don't like slapstick-type > roll-in-the-aisles humor, but I love this movie. (Yeah, I'm the > kind of person men are always telling to "lighten up.") I suppose > its magic for me lies in its outrageous premise: that there are > two rival groups of militant feminists occupying a huge tract > of land ("jungle") in California that the CIA, the marines, & > every kind of corporate & government sabatour is powerless to > eliminate. (All the marines & CIA agents sent in get eaten-- > with either clam dip or guacamole, depending on which feminist > faction captures them.) I must say that I've yet to meet a male > "fellow traveller" who appreciates this film. The ones I've seen > trying to watch it give up because they think it's boring & silly. > (Just the way I feel about most movies that are "comedies.") > > Interesting to hear that I'm not the only person in existence > who enjoyed _Until the End of the World._ I got so much pleasure > from it that I saw it a second time less than a week after having > seen it the first time. Everyone I know who's seen this movie > thinks it's badly structured & boring. It does have an unwieldly > shape-- but my understanding of the film sees that as inevitable. > I didn't take any notes on my thoughts about it, but I do remember > talking at length (to whomever would listen) about the insights > I felt that film gave me into why the noir form cannot accommodate > "role-reversed" female protagonists. The unwieldly shape of the > film is the result of its opening with explicit cyber-type noir > & later shifting into end-of-the-world sf. I once had some idea > for why Wenders might have sutured two such incompatible forms > together into one, but it escapes me at this late date. My favorite > scene was the moment the EMP strikes, in the small airplane, when > the world goes silent & there's just the small, spiraling shadow > of the plane on the stark Australian outback below, & a beautiful > silence & light all around it, as though the world were holding > its breath... > > Timmi Duchamp > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:15:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA204550 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:47:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24851 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:47:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA84004; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:17:13 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 82108 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:17:11 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24456 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:16:35 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id PAA19236; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:14:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:14:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: a bunch of things To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Mala, My thesis on Tiptree was entitled "The Female Man: The Feminism and Utopianism of James Tiptree, Jr." This was a few years ago now, and its extraordinary how the memory fades....But I did (oddly enough) use Harraway (haven't read her new book yet but will) who considered Tiptree one of her cyborg theorists, mostly on the basis of Tiptree's masquerade as a man, ignoring Tiptree's own conviction that male and female are indeliably biologically differentiated. But on the other hand Tiptree did have a diffcult relationship with her own female identity- apparently considering herself both inside and outside the female species. I also used essentialist feminist theorists like Mary Daly- although they differ radically in many ways they still share an underlying biologism.What stuck me about Tiptree's utopian writing is how it had to exclude men to suceed (as in "Houston, Houston, Do You Read"), and is basically untenable in the real world which includes men ("Your Faces, Oh My Sisters...").Gloom. gloom. Even in Up the Walls of the World, happy utopian striving inside the space entity os only possible because all the entities within are disembodied. Incidently, Harraway also considers Octavia Butler as a cyborg theorist, and writes about Butler at lenght in her "Primate Visions" (the two do indeed have an affinity- although there are also many differences between them- Haraway would not share Butler's conviction that males are inherently violent as seen in the Xenogenesis trilogy, for example). Cheers! Tanya. PS I take the points about the Bujold series. Serves me right for commenting on them when I've only read 2 books and the summaries at the end of these two books detailing the rest of the series. None of the summaries mentioned Cordelia at all.It really did seem to me that the heroine completely vanished- and obviously she does not. But I do think Cordelia is a heroine- even if she (quite rationally) tries to refuse the label. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:15:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA123982 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:46:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24463 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:43:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA40538; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:17:17 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 82114 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:17:15 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA98254 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:17:00 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 97 15:17 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:17:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Octavia Butler To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970408122628_-933372715@emout05.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: NH: I read _Parable of the Sower_ when it first came out. In it, as I remember, Lauren says that people call what she suffers from "hyperempathy," but it's in fact a misnomer, since what she feels is what she *imagines* other people to be feeling, not their actual sensations. I'm pretty sure that that's in the novel. I think Lauren goes on to say that for her, it boils down to much of a muchness: they feel pain, and she feels pain too, even though it's triggered by her imagination of their pain, and not by real empathy. I admire and respect Octavia Butler's writing, but find it *really* depressing, even though I'm not one to demand that my reading be "positive" or "uplifting" (I once subsisted on a pretty much steady diet of Tanith Lee). When I first heard about Butler, I devoured everything I could find by her in a matter of days, it seemed, then walked around in a grim fog for the next month. -nalo On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Nicola Griffith wrote: > Mike, I'm intrigued by your interesting side point. I've read PARABLE OF THE > SOWER three times now (trying to figure out what other readers have liked > about the novel--but that's another story). In the text there is nothing, as > far as I can see, to indicate Lauren is anything but a reliable narrator: she > says she has hyperempathy; she *has* hyperempathy (the ability to feel > others' physical sensations--not just pain). At what point do we disbelieve > what is written and believe instead the author? At what point and to what > extent should the text stand on its own? > > I don't know if Butler does or does not want us to see Earthseed as "right." > Lauren's religion is one of my (many) problems with the book: we see, > beautifully articulated, the beginnings of Lauren's philosophy (and I think > it is a philosophy to begin with, rather than religion); we understand how > she gets from A to B, and then, phhtt, she's suddenly thinks humankind's > future is among the stars. She makes a leap of faith that I can't follow--a > leap of faith that's not prefigured or explained or believable. At least I > didn't find it so. > > Perhaps I'm simply misreading the text. If anyone has any pointers I'd be > happy to hear them. Meanwhile, if anyone is interested I can post or email a > review I wrote for the _New York Review of SF_ when the novel first came out. > > And Mike: I read RANDOM ACTS OF SENSELESS VIOLENCE and thought it was a > terrific novel. Heartbreaking. > > Nicola > > Nicola Griffith > http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:18:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA118186 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:39:13 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05741 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:35:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA76110; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:15:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 85063 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:15:14 -0500 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA31402 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:13:57 -0500 Received: by halcyon.com id AA18034 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:13:56 -0700 Message-ID: <199704082113.AA18034@halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Daughters of Dust To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >And I don't know if "Daughters of the Dust" fits the definition of >speculative fiction, with its pre-born baby ghost girl running as fast as >she can to arrive in time to patch a rift between herparents, but that >one has a special place in my heart, too Yes, Julie Dash's "Daughters of Dust" is breathtaking. Its fantasy elements and highly stylized photography and dialogue allow the visible elaboration of the theme of the survival of The Race. The voice and anxiety of the pre-born baby creates a teleology spanning generations that reminds me most of Margaret Walker's _Jubilee_-- which resorts to Providence (i.e., God) for creating the teleological drive that represents, thematically, the collective accomplishment of survival (& ultimate defeat of genocide). & the ghosts of the slaves who drowned resonate with Toni Morrison's _Beloved_ (which the pre-born baby's voice also calls to mind-- though Morrison's ghostly baby is a dead one, not one anxious to be conceived & brought to life). In both "Daughters of Dust" and _Beloved_ the fantasy elements are crucial for articulating an abstraction it would be otherwise hard to put into words. As for whether it can be considered "speculative"-- I guess it depends on whether one is willing to consider novels like _Beloved_ "speculative." "Daughters of Dust" is literary in the way _Beloved_ is literary. People who consider "speculative" a ghetto will deny they're anything but an art film in the case of Dash's film, & a high literary novel in the case of _Beloved._ Timmi Duchamp From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA159384 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:19:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09967 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:18:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA34206; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:51:38 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 86069 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:51:37 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA76314 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:50:00 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 97 17:50 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Butler's "Kindred" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: NH: I don't remember _Kindred._ It's probably on my bookshelves; I'll have a look and see if it was one of the ones I read. No, I think I meant that so many of Butler's worlds seem so loveless, or if there is love, it's compelled by biology, against the characters' better judgement. They go into it kicking, screaming, resenting and hating the other person. That depressed hell out of me. Not all her stories are like that, by any means, but that was the overweening impression I came away with at the time. But as to your student's comment, women heroes/role models/triumphant (whatever you want to call them) do exist, and not only in fiction. -nalo On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > nalo: did _Kindred_ depress you? just taught it in freshman english under > my "escape" theme. it was the students' favorite of all. (taught it with Le > Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" and Angelou's "..Caged Bird > Sings" and Lowry's "The Giver") > > one of my students (an 18 yr old black female) wrote to me in a journal: > "It seems to me that the only female hero this patriarchal world could take > would be a science fiction female hero. Because she simply does not exist." > > wheew. now THAT is depressing. is this what you mean? > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:16:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA136004 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:04:45 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02819 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:04:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA37168; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:43:29 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 84156 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:43:27 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA74506 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:41:55 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA08860 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01632 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:57:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: SF movies To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: i'm trying to think of fem-sf movies... i saw "TankGirl" and loved it... but i wonder why so many of the sf women are girls and silly (or, as someone said, of the "eat shit" kind of aloofness)? (can't we say "eat shit" and be serious?) we can't forget (well, maybe we can) "Terminator" -- the woman is the one who, as alexander the great's mama says, "rocks the cradle and rules the world." the woman in the terminator has a couple of overly coined feminist responses... which, when i first heard them sounded great... ("you men don't know what it's like to CREATE"...) and she is, after all, the one who saves the day. plus, she has amazing biceps. i'm not sure we could call the movie very literary, though. not much to study and ponder-- "Alien" -- the last one, had a strange feminist twist. but i became quickly tired of the sigorney weaver character calling the big ol' baby-producing monster a bitch. (there's a strange part of me, perhaps in the margins of my feminism, that can't stand any strong woman being called a bitch -- alein, human-eating, or otherwise.) i think, though, that we'll be seeing some really powerful movies soon--reason being that movie producers are just now able to begin to handle feminist issues- let alone sf issues. "Thelma and Louise" and "Fried Green Tomatoes" put so many men into intellectual overload... just think what adding sf into that genre would do. so, instead, we have a ridiculous plethora of "that-woman-has-more -than-me-so-i'm-going-to-kill-her-and-her-family-and-take-over-her-life" genre...which may be science fiction (in it's implausability). and that's what i can't stand: the putting a woman in the place of a man idea; assuming that it's going to make a fem story-- gad. it's kind like the black barbie doll: "maybe if we color the plastic dark brown, it'll be an african-american doll." i think not. -lissa if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA155466 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:35:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11279 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:33:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA73318; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:13:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 86865 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:13:10 -0500 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA81746 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:12:30 -0500 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SWI27770; Tue, 08 Apr 1997 18:03:53 EDT References: <970408122628_-933372715@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-12 Message-ID: <19970408.170042.12150.4.avs5@juno.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:03:53 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Octavia Butler To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Nicola Griffith writes: > Meanwhile, if anyone is interested I can post or email a >review I wrote for the _New York Review of SF_ when the novel first >came out. Please do. I like what you have to say. Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always remember the marketeer's philosophy: "If someone won't buy it, no one can have it." From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA179548 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:38:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11689 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:39:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA83476; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:21:19 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 87118 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:21:16 -0500 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA73772 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:19:05 -0500 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SWH27770; Tue, 08 Apr 1997 18:03:53 EDT References: <970408001859_956039863@emout01.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-5,10-11,17-18,21-22,30-31,35-36,38-44 Message-ID: <19970408.170042.12150.3.avs5@juno.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:03:53 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Jo Ann Rangel writes: >very interested in the development of the >protagonist, particularly what you thought of her development into a self-empowered >young woman from her beginnings as a teen in the novel... My first thoughts on this regard Lauren as leader. Q: How was she able to convince 8 other adults to join her new religion? A: By promising them companionship and food on their dangerous journey. Would the religion have been strong enough to stand alone as a means to attract followers? Besides this aspect of Lauren's leadership, how about the fact that her authority was never questioned, except by latecomer Mora? I am reminded of Marge Piercy's first SF book (the title currently eludes me -- it's about teenagers who want to recreate the country as a commune) in which there are constant power struggles and control issues. Why do we see none of this in _Parable_? As _Parable_ is the first Butler I've read, I'd like to ask if all of her stories tend to be as underdeveloped. Or, is the underdevelopment a key point that I'm missing? I was also really bothered by the fact that Lauren seemed to have a pre-fab response to every newcomer's questions about Earthseed as well as about other things. For example, after Zahra has sex with Harry for the first time, Zahra asks Lauren if she's jealous. Lauren's immediate response is "I'm as human as you are...But I don't think I would have yielded to temptation out here with no prospects, no idea what's going to happen. The thought of getting pregnant would have stopped me cold" (183). First of all, is this woman supposed to be superhuman? Her cool rationality turns me off, and I have a hard time seeing an 18-year-old (or even someone older) saying this. Personally, I would have first said, "yes," even if I did continue with the above response. Secondly, how many of us can instantly rattle off such an eloquent and compact response to such an emotional question? Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always remember the marketeer's philosophy: "If someone won't buy it, no one can have it." From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA205270 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:35:31 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11439 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:35:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA62694; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:15:15 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 86909 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:15:13 -0500 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA40438 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:13:31 -0500 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SWM27770; Tue, 08 Apr 1997 18:03:54 EDT References: <19970407.202453.10174.3.avs5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,10-17 Message-ID: <19970408.170042.12150.8.avs5@juno.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:03:54 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: sue hagedorn writes: >In the Afterword for "Bloodchild" she writes: > > "It amazes me that some people have seen "Bloodchild" as a >story of slavery. It isn't." Wow, my professor's all wrong (Yes! I love it when that happens.). I read Bloodchild in an anthology that doesn't have this Afterword. Can you tell me where you found it? Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always remember the marketeer's philosophy: "If someone won't buy it, no one can have it." From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA106890 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:35:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11529 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:36:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14962; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:16:18 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 86976 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:16:17 -0500 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA76238 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:15:49 -0500 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SWK27770; Tue, 08 Apr 1997 18:03:54 EDT References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-7,9,15-22 Message-ID: <19970408.170042.12150.6.avs5@juno.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:03:54 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Thanks, all, for replying to my posting. Here are my thoughts on Laura Sells' comments: 1) Please tell me more about Haraway's "affinity groups." 2) >I was somewhat disappointed in the "seed" >metaphor that Butler used, though. I totally agree. Besides, the use of the word "God" tends to scare me. It's too loaded. At one point, Lauren corrects 2 of her group who are arguing about whether Earthseed's "God" is male or female and Lauren points out that "Change has no sex," but I feel like that's a cop out on the real issue of the use of the word "God." I think I will analyze one of the Earthseed verses for a paper I'm writing, but as a whole I don't think the verses form a coherent basis for this spirituality. Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always remember the marketeer's philosophy: "If someone won't buy it, no one can have it." From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23820 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:38:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11671 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:38:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA82598; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:17:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 87008 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:17:03 -0500 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23962 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:16:23 -0500 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SWL27770; Tue, 08 Apr 1997 18:03:54 EDT References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-10,12-16,19-25 Message-ID: <19970408.170042.12150.7.avs5@juno.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:03:54 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Michael Marc Levy writes: >Although I liked Parable of the Sower a lot, I'm still not very >comfortable with Lauren's Earthseed religion. The concept is either >very profound or very shallow--I haven't made up my mind yet. I agree. If it is a matter of profundity, can anyone explain to me more about how and why it is so? >Question, does Butler want us to see Earthseed as right? Tomorrow I'll ask my professor what he thinks (I have no idea) and get back to you. >What she has is a well developed delusion that she can feel >other peoples' pain. Thanks for including that comment. That clears up some things for me. However, it's too bad that sometimes we must resort to asking the author when we can't figure something out. Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always remember the marketeer's philosophy: "If someone won't buy it, no one can have it." From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:17:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA105462 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:32:07 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05430 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:32:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30548; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:51:12 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 84373 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:51:10 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAB30534 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:50:36 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA10191 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA00902 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:05:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: feminism & sf To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: A Robin Gordon wrote: >Happy Monday everyone. I would like to suggest that the tangential >discussion going on regarding the age old question "can men be >feminists"is a bottomless pit which threatens to consume this list. Of >course this is an, at times, interesting and potentially important >discussion, I'd like to suggest that this isn't really the place for it, >unless discussed with relation to sf (which is possible). While I can >only speak for myself I expect other women on this list who are >politically involved have been through this discussion more times than we >can count, like myself, and don't necessarily want to run through it again >here when there are so many interesting issues to discuss with relation to >the lists theme of sf and feminism. After reading Stone's post I could >have a lot to say in reaction, but just don't think this is the place. perhaps you can delete these posts and move onto the issues that you would like to read about -- because many of us who are new to these ideas would like to work through our thoughts. this is why i joined the list! i've been what you would call "politically involved" for the past 15 years... and i still find the subject of "what is feminism" -- no matter the tangentiality -- question wonderfully enlightening. i think that if we can't understand other's concerns and ideas on fem alone, how can we begin to complicate the issue by bringing sf into the picture? and surely, the realm of fem will change in the light of sf. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA80816 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:28:55 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10787 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:28:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30520; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:09:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 86726 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:09:07 -0500 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.95]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA39790 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:07:00 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA16290 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970408180521_547288770@emout04.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:06:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Though I haven't read Beauty, there are a number of anthologies edited by Teri Windling and Ellen Datlow which are also retellings of fairy tales. Most are published by Tor Books, which also published a series of novel-length books edited by Teri Windling under the rubris "The Fairy Tale Series." One of these, "Briar Rose" by Jane Yolen, is a chilling retelling of the Sleeping Beauty story set in Poland during the Holocaust. The anthologies are, by and large, spectacular, particularly "The Armless Maiden." Barbara From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:17:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA106346 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:39:09 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05676 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:34:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA95638; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:25:23 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 85330 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:25:21 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA77914 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:24:36 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA15111 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA22916 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Butler's "Kindred" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: nalo: did _Kindred_ depress you? just taught it in freshman english under my "escape" theme. it was the students' favorite of all. (taught it with Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" and Angelou's "..Caged Bird Sings" and Lowry's "The Giver") one of my students (an 18 yr old black female) wrote to me in a journal: "It seems to me that the only female hero this patriarchal world could take would be a science fiction female hero. Because she simply does not exist." wheew. now THAT is depressing. is this what you mean? -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA156164 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:11:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13978 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:12:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA66872; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:51:33 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 87883 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:51:32 -0500 Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA89888 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:50:04 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA16001 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:49:31 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.4227.emout11.mail.aol.com.860539608" Message-ID: <970408184648_855493138@emout11.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:49:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Review: _Parable of the Sower_ (from NYRSF) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Content-ID: <0_4227_860539608@emout11.mail.aol.com.7364> Content-type: text/plain For those who asked, here is my review of _Parable_. I know now that I misread the text with regard to the hyperempathy question, so *please* don't point it out to me. Any other feedback, though, would be welcome. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ Content-ID: <0_4227_860539608@emout11.mail.aol.com.7365> Content-type: text/plain; name="PARABLE.ASC" A gospel or a parable does not have to follow the same rules as a novel in order to be successful. The point of the parable is the moral, not the tale itself. Read as a parable, Butler's latest book is powerful, thought-provoking, and possessed of a definite agenda--keep adapting or die. As a novel, however, it is curiously contradictory. It is 2024. Lauren Oya Olamina is about to turn fifteen. As is usual with the protagonists of science fiction Lauren is precocious, without her biological mother, and different from everyone else. Her real mother took a designer drug called paracetco which damaged Lauren, leaving with the trait of "hyperempathy." (More on which later--which is pretty much what Butler does: introduce the idea, then drop it like a hot potato until a lot later in the book.) Hyperempathy is not the only thing that makes her different. She is a self-conscious prophet, the originator of a belief system she names Earthseed, a credo based on the ability to adapt to change: All that you touch You Change. All that you Change Changes you. The only lasting truth Is Change. God Is Change. The world *is* changing. California is running out of water; unemployment is producing terrible poverty; the largely illiterate and homeless population is turning to crime and drugs, while those still fortunate enough to have jobs are barricading off their communities. When they have to leave home to go work, they travel at dawn, when the desperate and the drug-crazed are still asleep, and they carry guns they are not afraid to use. While much of this is extrapolated beautifully from the present day--the squeezing of the middle class: teachers, preachers and academics losing out to drug-using criminals and anarchists, corrupt and ineffective emergency services, and the corporate rich--there are some puzzling gaps. For example, poverty has reduced the community to two computers, three televisions and one "window," but everyone has radios and phones: Butler sidesteps the probability that thirty years from now, a radio will *be* a television will *be* a phone will *be* an interactive multimedia audio visual system. There is a Noah's Ark feel to things--everyone either pairs up (hetero)sexually, or dies--and a curious 1950s attitude to gender roles and expectations. Lauren's bad boy younger brother, Keith, has definite and contemptuous views of women, though we never find out where these views might come from in a society where the parents are both equally well-educated, the eldest sister is smart as a whip, and there is no television to pump received ideas of women's frailties into the impressionable adolescent's mind. But all this is, ultimately, beside the point because the point of PARABLE OF THE SOWER is Lauren's growth and maturation as a prophet, the formulation and codification of her beliefs into _Earthseed: The Book of Life_. Although nominally divided into four parts, PARABLE can be more easily seen as two sections: the first, which includes the first three parts of the book, when Lauren aged fifteen to seventeen and still living with her family, covers the private origination and development of Earthseed principles; the second details her flight from the destroyed neighborhood, her adaptation of a prophet persona, and the formation of the nucleus of her Earthseed community. Initially, the formulation of Lauren's ideas, and the ideas themselves, make sense. Lauren, like many science fictional readers and protagonists, knows that Things Are Gonna Change For The Worse. She sees the growing unemployment, the increasing scarcity of water, the growing futility of politicians and emergency services, and understands that total breakdown is inevitable. The only way to survive is to accept the change, remain adaptable, learn to live with a different world. We learn along with Lauren that "Intelligence is ongoing, individual adaptability," and that "Civilization is to groups what intelligence is to individuals." We do not disagree. But it is when she makes a conceptual leap, "The Destiny of Earthseed/Is to take roots among the stars," that we lose the thread. It is at this point, we suspect, that what has once been to Lauren a method of organizing her world actually becomes a religion. We are asked to take it on faith. Lauren, unlike the heroines of such adventures as EMERGENCE and FALSE DAWN, is not alone in a hostile world where the Big Bang or the Horrid Disease have already happened and the reconstruction can begin. She is still in the middle of on-going change, and she is not free to do as she wants/thinks best; there is her family to consider. Although she can see clearly enough where it will lead, her family and friends are in denial; ignore it and it will go away. Again, the story of Noah's Ark springs to mind, but instead of a boat, Lauren prepares a backpack. (The contents are lovingly described for all of us who have dreamed and planned and longed for such an opportunity to battle adversity and win.) But this is not a simplistic adventure novel for juveniles and Butler does not take the easy path. What Lauren knows conflicts with how she feels. She loves her family; she is only a teenager. Torn, she prepares the backpack then does nothing but write more Earthseed verses. When Lauren is seventeen, Keith--aged fourteen--goes rogue: he leaves what he perceives as the restrictive, sheeplike community and runs with the wolves, those whose only rule appears to be survival of the fittest. He survives quite well, for a while, paying furtive visits to the family home when his father is absent. It is here and in other close examinations of non-sexual relationships that Butler shows her extraordinary ability to delineate subtleties, detailing Lauren's gradual realization that her brother is a sociopath, a murderer--that she does not, in fact, like him--while at the same time retaining the sense of love and family that binds them. Perfectly done. But then Keith meets some leaner and meaner wolves and is tortured and killed. And Lauren's father goes missing--probably murdered out of hand by the drug-eating, fire-setting gangs--and Lauren senses the imminence of disaster. Still she does nothing: her family needs her. When she is just eighteen, the community is finally overwhelmed: destroyed by a gang of drug-eating pyromaniacs who rape, then kill, then plunder. The only survivors are Lauren, a boy her age called Harry, and Zahra--the youngest wife of the community's polygynist. It is here that the book seems to lose its depth. Butler constantly raises issues or ideas, then drops them. For example, we are initially told that Lauren's hyperempathy--her ability or curse to feel what she *thinks* others feel (her brother Keith once made her bleed by squirting himself with red ink)--allows her to share both pleasure and pain, and we get a ten page burst of Lauren feeling the pain of others, but then we hear nothing about it until the second half of the book. When Butler remembers about it, the effects of the hyperempathy are peculiarly two dimensional. Lauren feels only the pain from others' physical wounds and the pleasure from others' sexual activity. No details about the vicarious enjoyment of food, the suffering of others' fear and so on. Lauren decides she must travel as a man. No details on the more ordinary difficulties she might face as a result, and then when Harry inadvertently reveals she's a woman, there doesn't seem to be any fallout. Much is made of there not being anywhere safe to settle in the California area, and then the fledgling community promptly settles in northern California. The only time Butler reaches the kind of truth and clarity apparent in the first half of the book is in certain beautifully drawn interactions between people who have to learn about when to trust and when to suspend that trust. But these incidents, no matter how illuminatingly observed, are not enough to sustain one hundred and fifty pages of a novel. After Lauren has formulated her religion and the Robledo neighborhood is destroyed, the book reads almost as if Butler has lost interest. But while the second half of the book has a tendency towards fairly typical skiffy After The Disaster novels, in the first half of PARABLE Butler takes some of the givens of science fiction--change, preparedness, survival of the fittest--and produces daring, bold and intellectually fascinating meta science fiction. With the devastatingly simple prose of her teenage protagonist, she does something none of the New Testament gospels (or any other religious text I can think of, offhand) dares: she details not only the beliefs of a prophet but the birth of those beliefs. She attempts to meld reason and religion. She almost succeeds. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:19:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA150308 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:08:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13753 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:09:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA66734; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:51:13 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 87829 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:51:11 -0500 Received: from emout30.mail.aol.com (emout30.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.135]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA66624 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:51:01 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout30.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA22022 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970408184223_-1536489333@emout01.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Parable of the Sower--thanks To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Nalo and Mike, thanks for the correction. How embarrassing to read it wrongly not just once but twice. Aaargh. (However, if so many other readers also made this mistake, it makes me wonder if perhaps Butler should have been just a wee bit clearer.) Mike, I don't have the citation for the NYRSF review--all I have is the review itself on disk. I'll post it for you and Mala. (I'll label it clearly so that those who aren't interested can just delete the file.) You'll see that my misreading has led to a certain amount of dissatisfaction with the novel. Oh, well. Chalk it up to those of those bloody "learning experiences." Sigh. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:20:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA182270 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:13:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17586 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:15:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05320; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:55:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 88995 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:55:04 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA44352 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:53:03 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 97 19:53 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:53:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970408180521_547288770@emout04.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: The Datlow/Windling collections are: _Snow White, Blood Red_ _Black Thorn, White Rose_ _Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears_ I've really enjoyed these too (though I sometimes wish that the editors didn't 'out' the original tale at the intro to each story so that I could guess what the inspiration is. Sometimes it's less than obvious, or it's a tale I don't know). The series has provided me with revenge on some tales that just made me bristle, or has re-interpreted them in ways that are very satisfying. _The Armless Maiden and Other Tales of Childhood's Survivors_ is a chilling collection, edited solely by Terri Windling. Windling's essay at the end of it chronicles her own history of being an abused child, and how she got from there to where she is now. And is it Jack Zipes who has a book that analyzes folk tales? Title: _Don't Bet on the Prince._ Hard to resist a title like that! -nalo On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Barbara Harman wrote: > Though I haven't read Beauty, there are a number of anthologies edited by > Teri Windling and Ellen Datlow which are also retellings of fairy tales. Most > are published by Tor Books, which also published a series of novel-length > books edited by Teri Windling under the rubris "The Fairy Tale Series." One > of these, "Briar Rose" by Jane Yolen, is a chilling retelling of the Sleeping > Beauty story set in Poland during the Holocaust. The anthologies are, by and > large, spectacular, particularly "The Armless Maiden." > > Barbara > "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:20:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA75412 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:13:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17484 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:14:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA31172; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:59:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 89044 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:59:02 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA82588 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:56:39 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 97 19:56 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Parable of the Sower--thanks To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970408184223_-1536489333@emout01.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Nicola Griffith wrote: > Nalo and Mike, thanks for the correction. How embarrassing to read it > wrongly not just once but twice. Aaargh. > You'll see that my misreading has led to a certain amount of dissatisfaction > with the novel. Oh, well. Chalk it up to those of those bloody "learning > experiences." Sigh. NH: :) Don't you just hate those? -nalo "Would you trade your funk for what's behind the third door?" P-Funk, "Funkentelechy" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:20:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA142970 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:29:42 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18252 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:28:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA72744; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:15:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 89208 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:15:06 -0500 Received: from emout26.mail.aol.com (emout26.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.131]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA53816 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:14:52 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout26.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA04271 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970408200811_-1234900812@emout16.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:14:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hi, That was an intersting take on the issue of spirituality and the "Earthseed" philosophy...we must remember though that as readers and critics of this type of literature each interpretation may be vastly different from the author's intent...it is not a cop out to not assign a gender to "God" it could very well simply be Lauren's interpretation of her personal spirituality as she perceives it at that particular time in the novel. Look at the recent events with the Heaven's Gate cult they believed in asexuallity as a means to fufill an aspect of their personal search for spirituality from within their group...I know it is an unusual aspect to bring up but as a real life example versus the spirituality quest Lauren finds for herself, I believe more than ever than no one interpretation is the perfect one. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:21:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA135514 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:05:39 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20233 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:07:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA66640; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:56:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 89538 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:56:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ax.com (odin.ax.com [199.184.188.9]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA39906 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:55:01 -0500 Received: from [199.184.188.100] (ppp100.ax.com [199.184.188.100]) by odin.ax.com (8.8.3/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id RAA15412 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:53:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: I'm a HUGE Tepper fan. However, did anyone else have problems with her total and absolute condemnation of horror writers to Hell? Which she then followed with an incredibly horrorific scene in _Sideshow_? If every author has her ups and downs, _Beauty_ had a little of both. I think _A Plague of Angels_ and _Shadow's End_ were good Tepper without being great Tepper. However, I was very happy with _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_, and would love a discussion on what choice readers feel was made at the end. And I think her current book, _The Family Tree_, may end up being my favorite. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:22:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA42242 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:38:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27529 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:38:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14984; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:11:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 92531 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:11:04 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA62518 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:10:13 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 97 22:02:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:02:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <19970408.170042.12150.3.avs5@juno.com> Status: O X-Status: Although Parable of the Sower has its strengths, I think the Xenogenesis trilogy is Butler's masterpiece--Dawn, Imago, and Adulthood Rites. It's just been reissued in paperback in the U.S. by the way and--surprise, surprise--they actually put obviously black characters on the covers (which wasn't the case when the books first came out). Actually, I don't think Butler's written a book that isn't worth reading. Kindred, Clay's Ark, the early Patternmaster series are all worthwhile, although, as has been noted, rather grim. To tie into another thread, the Xenogenesis series also has a strong ecofeminist theme. Mike Levy From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:22:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA42260 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:38:31 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27556 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:39:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15070; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:19:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 92693 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:19:03 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24480 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:18:15 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 8 Apr 97 22:11:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <19970408.170042.12150.8.avs5@juno.com> Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > sue hagedorn writes: > > >In the Afterword for "Bloodchild" she writes: > > > > "It amazes me that some people have seen "Bloodchild" as a > >story of slavery. It isn't." > > Wow, my professor's all wrong (Yes! I love it when that happens.). > > I read Bloodchild in an anthology that doesn't have this Afterword. Can > you tell me where you found it? > > > Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As Nicola Griffith said in an earlier post, more or less, how far can we trust an author when her statements about a story seem contradicted by the story itself? "Bloodchild" is about a human being forced to act as womb/first meal for an intelligent alien insect, but it's not about slavery? Well maybe not entirely, but... Actually this image of forced interspecies or inter-racial procreation occurs over and over again in Butler's work. It's the basic premis of Xenogenesis after all, which concerns a species whose primary biological imperative is to interbreed with other species whether they want to or not. It's also a concern in Kindred, where a 20th century African American woman discovers that she has a white ancestor, and also plays a role in the Patternmaster series. Mike Levy From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:22:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA93842 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:08:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28975 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:09:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA47910; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:46:29 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 93389 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:46:27 -0500 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com (m11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA55186 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:45:32 -0500 Received: (from avs5@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XWT27770; Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:32:40 EDT X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,9-10,13-14,21-22,26-29,31-37 Message-ID: <19970408.222922.20046.0.avs5@juno.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:32:40 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne V Stuecker Subject: _Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Here are several more criticisms I have of Butler's novel: 1) There is too much unrealistic dialogue. How else can I describe it? When I read a book (I try to refrain from "novel" because a novel-length SF piece isn't really a novel) I like to be able to image the characters' behavior and speech as being real and actually happening. I had a hard time doing that with this book. I already wrote of this a little bit when I discussed Lauren's pre-fab responses to people's intricate questions. 2) What is the deal with this planned marriage to Bankole? Lauren admits that she doesn't trust him fully, and then several lines later she reaffirms their marriage plans. Is this believable to anyone else? 3) I found myself wishing something really bad would happen to them while they were on their long and supposedly dangerous journey. Only one person died the whole time, and the group easily survived a fire at the end. It seemed to me like there would have been many more hardships to endure in such a situation (at least, one in the real world), but they were never out of food or water, they had no major medical incidents, and no one they invited to travel with them betrayed them. 4) The funeral at the end, involving the use of trees as memorials, reminded me of the same ending of Kim Stanley Robinson's _Pacific Edge_. This similarity is not a bad thing, necessarily, but since I just read _PE_ I found it rather repetitive. I liked the book because it made me really think about survivalism and defense, but I also have a lot of problems with it. Anne Stuecker Washington, DC, USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't mistake my kindness for a weakness. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:22:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA103790 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:08:29 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28973 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:09:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA97580; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:51:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 93545 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:51:05 -0500 Received: from upsmot03.msn.com (upsmot03.msn.com [204.95.110.85]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA87994 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:49:44 -0500 Received: from upmajb06 ([204.95.110.89]) by upsmot03.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id UAA00819 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:43:59 -0700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:47:53 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roberta Wolff Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Mary Elizabeth Hart wrote: I'm a HUGE Tepper fan. However, did anyone else have problems with her total and absolute condemnation of horror writers to Hell? Which she then followed with an incredibly horrorific scene in _Sideshow_? Yes! Roberta's Cat-- onegreycat@msn.com greycat1@airmail.net From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:42:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA60940 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:08:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17079 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:10:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA48332; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:01:15 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20278 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:01:12 -0500 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA73526 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:00:17 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA07947 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970409023723_-1603209112@emout09.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:37:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: U Jack Zipes is a local (Minnesotan) who teaches at the University of Minnesota. "Don't Bet on the Prince" sounds like one of his. He also did a collection of all the different variations on Little Red Riding Hood. Though I don't remember the title, I'm sure it was provocative as well. Thanks for the correction on "The Armless Maiden." I have not made it to the end of the book yet (chilling indeed!) so was not aware of Windling's more personal association. Barbara From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:42:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA106070 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:36:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14657 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:36:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA84326; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:16:22 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19399 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:16:20 -0500 Received: from mail2.dial-up.net (mail2.dial-up.net [196.26.208.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA75574 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:15:02 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a4-jhb-7.dial-up.net [196.26.216.135]) by mail2.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with SMTP id AAA16786 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:11:52 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199704091816.AA22268@halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334B6D90.2949@griffin.co.za> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:21:05 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: U L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: > > Nicola, when you talking about your "bloody learning experience," > & Mike, when you talk about Butler's authorial unreliability, > you may be both talking about how arbitrary a reader's relationship > is to any fiction text. Readers often make mistakes of "fact" > (i.e., missing material in the text that makes explicit a certain > interpretation-- as in the case of Lauren's "hyperempathy"-- which > I did pick up on in my reading, as a very telling detail that > stuck in my mind-- or even changing the details in their memory, > to accord with their own preconceptions & on-going [rather than > after-the-fact] interpretation), & authors-- in an act of reading > their own work, not writing it, though obviously "reading" is > a necessary part of the total process of "writing"-- often insist > on a simplicity of a single level-- the one they consciously intended-- > to their work, denying that anything could be in the text but > what they consciously intended. (Eudora Welty sticks in my mind > as an author who becomes enraged at readers seeing anything but > the surface of her stories.) I seriously wonder if anyone reads > the same piece of fiction in the same way anyone else does. I'd > be willing to bet any issue of _Locus_ you might pick up would > manifest such errors in its reviews. (I catch such errors there > constantly: & of course this holds true for other publications, > & not just _Locus_.) It's not necessarily carelessness (though > if the reviewer took the time to re-read the piece being reviewed, > at least some of the mistakes might be caught-- often in deep > puzzlement, that s/he could have been so grossly in error). It's > just that all sorts of things-- from previous reading experiences, > previous conceptions of the author's work, & all sorts of personal > experiences in the life of the reader-- kick in when we read, > sometimes even from the very first sentence. (Which is why I > don't think the author has the responsibility to hit the reader > over the head with a fact: showing, not telling, is always appropriate, > except in political tracts.) In my experience, even when three > people who are socially close and share the same political attitudes > read the same book, they discover when they talk to one another > about it that they've read three different books. [I don't say > "completely" different books, but *substantially* different books. > They almost never remember all of the same details. They weight > themes differently. They are disappointed or excited for different > reasons.] & then, in the process of discussion, the person who > has the most forceful & structured articulations of what s/he > read ends up shaping the other two readers' memories of what *they* > read.) I myself have been through this process-- with the same > two other people-- with many, many books. > > It might not be totally off-the-wall to hypothesize that people > develop a consensus about what any given piece of fiction is about > strictly through public discussion (meant broadly). If so, public > discussion then becomes the lens through which a particular work > is read. > > And "public discussion," of course, includes lists like this one. > > Timmi Duchamp People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about something. Or with Robert Johnson's book one of the Lightbringer trilogy who brings in the theme of vampires..OOO Gothic and vapirism. It's just a book for crying out loud, somebodies imagination. When I was at school one of my subjects was English, of course we studied poetry and mostly South African poets since I live in South Africa. One day we had a interview with one of the poets Sipho Sipambla. About 80% of the teachers interpretations of the poems made him either laugh your sigh. Humans read too much into things. That's all I can say. We take ourselves to seriously and must learn to laugh at ourselves. Try it sometime it might be refreshing. Jay Dragonheart. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:42:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA31180 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:38:45 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14788 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:38:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA38970; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:21:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19485 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:21:04 -0500 Received: from mail2.dial-up.net (mail2.dial-up.net [196.26.208.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA36880 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:20:57 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a4-jhb-7.dial-up.net [196.26.216.135]) by mail2.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with SMTP id AAA16911 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:17:53 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <334BFACF.37B9@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334B6EF9.E52@griffin.co.za> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:27:05 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: U Nomi Liron wrote: > > I am a great fan of Tepper, but one thing that really bothers me is > her implied stance against homosexuality. It is really apparent in passages > in "Gate to Women's Country" where "gay syndrome" is explained as having > originated from abnormal hormone levels during pregnancy. In the new society > the women build and create from the ashes of the old, "gay syndrome" was > identified and corrected at birth. > I have generally found Sci Fi writers to be more open to alternative > forms of sexuality, so the sentiment puzzles me. > Does anyone else have difficulties with this issue? > > drink water, nomi Nomi I must say it depends greatly on individuals. I for one am uncomfortble with gays[ doesn't mean I'll go gay bashing], it's just the way I am but I'm fine with lesbians. I have noticed that a lot, most people are fine with homosexuality in the opposite sex. I agree though usually authors are a little more open but then it also depends on the section of SF aimed at. Jay From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:36:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA44084 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:19:04 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA23187 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:18:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA65068; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:59:50 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9061 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:59:48 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA41334 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:59:03 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Wed, 9 Apr 97 07:43 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > As Nicola Griffith said in an earlier post, more or less, how far can we > trust an author when her statements about a story seem contradicted by > the story itself? NH: I see this happening often, with all kinds of artmaking. Sometimes the artist is not the best person to ask for an analysis of her work; a lot of it happens on an unconscious level. -nalo -nalo "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:38:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA140976 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:19:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01063 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:20:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA65560; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:59:47 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9057 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:59:45 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA80258 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:59:06 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 97 07:45 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:45:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: _Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <19970408.222922.20046.0.avs5@juno.com> Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Anne V Stuecker wrote: > When I read a book (I try to refrain from "novel" because a > novel-length SF piece isn't really a novel) NH: Anne, can you talk about this part a little more? -nalo "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:37:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA261390 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:56:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27585 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:54:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05220; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:38:27 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 6171 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:38:25 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA67874 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:35:54 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA24901 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.81] (hagedorn.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.81]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04912 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:02:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hagedors@mail.vt.edu References: <19970408.170042.12150.3.avs5@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:02:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: --surprise, >surprise--they actually put obviously black characters on the covers >(which wasn't the case when the books first came out). Yes--It's very interesting, too, that when I had a class of freshmen read Dawn, they were at first oblivious to any mention of race (that book illustrator too obviously had not read the book itself)--when it was pointed out to them, they changed some of their perceptions about the story line. That helped me make a point (my "theme" was "What Does it Mean to be Human?")--but I was a bit surprised at the reaction. (I guess I've been reading SF too long--since my first Ace double back in the '50s!) Sue From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:31:09 1997 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:08:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lauramd@tigger.cc.uic.edu To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Subject: Moderator commenting re: list purpose & feminism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: Well ... ahem. Moderator here. Just want to remind everyone that the list is about discussion of feminism with relation to SF. Not feminism per se. A little bit of tangentiality is cool, and I don't want to stifle debate, but this is a list for discussion of feminist sf, fantastic & utopian literature. There are plenty of resources available for discussion of feminism in general -- UseNet groups such as soc.feminism for instance -- and if someone wanted to post a list of other resources for discussion of feminism that would be great. In the meantime, I think we can respect that this list is open to a wide variety of people, some of whom will want to work through issues of feminism to get back to SF. Let's give a bit of latitude to people who want to discuss these issues. My principal reason for not having this be an entirely open arena for discussion of feminism per se is wanting to avoid anti-feminists coming on to the list and wasting the rest of our time. That doesn't seem to be happening. So let's be tolerant. It will also help if messages are CLEARLY labelled in the subject line. If you reply to a message, please check the subject line -- it may no longer be appropriate. If not, change it to: "New Topic; was re: old topic" or something like that. That will facilitate people deleting what they don't want to read. ------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Welcome to Feminist SF/Fantasy & Utopia ! Welcome to FeministSF - a list for fans, writers, activists and scholars to discuss feminist science fiction. Your list owner is Laura Quilter (lauramd@uic.edu). To unsubscribe, mail a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe feministsf If you have any problems contact the list-owner. For more information about Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopian literature, please check out the femsf web pages at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/femsf/ -------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THE FEMINIST SF, FANTASY & UTOPIA LISTSERVE Interested in talking to other people about the works of Ursula Le Guin, Marge Piercy, Suzy McKee Charnas, Elisabeth Vonarburg, Joanna Russ, and many others? Want to find out more about these authors, and other writers like them? The Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopia ListServe is a space for discussion of this literature. It is a mailing list, which means that every email will go to all subscribers mailboxes. It is a primarily unmoderated list, which means that I will not be selecting or censoring comments. People can ask whatever questions they want about the topic, with one broad exception. Because I have been on many listserves relating to feminism which have inspired anti-feminists to harass other members, or engage the entire listserve in discussions about the nature, purpose, etc., of feminism, I wish to make it clear from the outset that this listserve is for discussion of the literature. Discussion of feminism as a philosophy belong on a feminist discussion group. Discussion of feminism, as it pertains to literature or particular works of literature, is perfectly appropriate. I will remove people from the listserve who behave in an inappropriate manner after one warning. These rules are subject to change when we see how they work! This list began 3/2/97. -------------------------------------------------- Subscribing and Unsubscribing Use the online subscription request to subscribe only or send a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: subscribe feministsf Your Name or unsubscribe feministsf Conversing with Fellow Participants To send a note to the discussion list and all its participants: send a message to: feministsf@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: Whatever your message is -------------------------------------------------- Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you subscribe to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you will find the necessary instructions below. Perhaps more importantly, saving a copy of this message (and of all future subscription notices from other mailing lists) in a special mail folder will give you instant access to the list of mailing lists that you are subscribed to. This may prove very useful the next time you go on vacation and need to leave the lists temporarily so as not to fill up your mailbox while you are away! You should also save the "welcome messages" from the list owners that you will occasionally receive after subscribing to a new list. To send a message to all the people currently subscribed to the list, just send mail to FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. This is called "sending mail to the list", because you send mail to a single address and LISTSERV makes copies for all the people who have subscribed. This address (FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU) is also called the "list address". You must never try to send any command to that address, as it would be distributed to all the people who have subscribed. All commands must be sent to the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. It is very important to understand the difference between the two, but fortunately it is not complicated. The LISTSERV address is like a FAX number that connects you to a machine, whereas the list address is like a normal voice line connecting you to a person. If you make a mistake and dial the FAX number when you wanted to talk to someone on the phone, you will quickly realize that you used the wrong number and call again. No harm will have been done. If on the other hand you accidentally make your FAX call someone's voice line, the person receiving the call will be inconvenienced, especially if your FAX then re-dials every 5 minutes. The fact that most people will eventually connect the FAX machine to the voice line to allow the FAX to go through and make the calls stop does not mean that you should continue to send FAXes to the voice number. People would just get mad at you. It works pretty much the same way with mailing lists, with the difference that you are calling hundreds or thousands of people at the same time, and consequently you can expect a lot of people to get upset if you consistently send commands to the list address. You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF FEMINISTSF" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. You can also tell LISTSERV how you want it to confirm the receipt of messages you send to the list. If you do not trust the system, send a "SET FEMINISTSF REPRO" command and LISTSERV will send you a copy of your own messages, so that you can see that the message was distributed and did not get damaged on the way. After a while you may find that this is getting annoying, especially if your mail program does not tell you that the message is from you when it informs you that new mail has arrived from FEMINISTSF. If you send a "SET FEMINISTSF ACK NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will mail you a short acknowledgement instead, which will look different in your mailbox directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this is an acknowledgement you can read later. Finally, you can turn off acknowledgements completely with "SET FEMINISTSF NOACK NOREPRO". Following instructions from the list owner, your subscription options have been set to "MIME" rather than the usual LISTSERV defaults. For more information about subscription options, send a "QUERY FEMINISTSF" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX FEMINISTSF" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. You can then order these files with a "GET FEMINISTSF LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more information on the latter. This list is available in digest form. If you wish to receive the digested version of the postings, just issue a SET FEMINISTSF DIGEST command. Please note that it is presently possible for other people to determine that you are signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not want your name to be visible, just issue a "SET FEMINISTSF CONCEAL" command. More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. - updated 3/12/97 On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Robin Gordon wrote: > > >Happy Monday everyone. I would like to suggest that the tangential > >discussion going on regarding the age old question "can men be > >feminists"is a bottomless pit which threatens to consume this list. Of > >course this is an, at times, interesting and potentially important > >discussion, I'd like to suggest that this isn't really the place for it, > >unless discussed with relation to sf (which is possible). While I can > >only speak for myself I expect other women on this list who are > >politically involved have been through this discussion more times than we > >can count, like myself, and don't necessarily want to run through it again > >here when there are so many interesting issues to discuss with relation to > >the lists theme of sf and feminism. After reading Stone's post I could > >have a lot to say in reaction, but just don't think this is the place. > > perhaps you can delete these posts and move onto the issues that you would > like to read about -- because many of us who are new to these ideas would > like to work through our thoughts. this is why i joined the list! i've been > what you would call "politically involved" for the past 15 years... and i > still find the subject of "what is feminism" -- no matter the tangentiality > -- question wonderfully enlightening. i think that if we can't understand > other's concerns and ideas on fem alone, how can we begin to complicate the > issue by bringing sf into the picture? and surely, the realm of fem will > change in the light of sf. > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:31:50 1997 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:16:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lauramd@tigger.cc.uic.edu To: feministsf@uic.edu Subject: "The Gothic, The Human, & The Inhuman." Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:10:14 -0600 > From: TERRY L. TAYLOR, CO-EDITOR, H-ALBION > To: Multiple recipients of list H-ALBION > Subject: CFP: "The Gothic, The Human, & The Inhuman." > > From: SMTP%"aschmidt@toto.csustan.edu" > "Arnold Schmidt" 7-APR-1997 15:50:54.41 > > PLEASE CROSS-LIST > > Call For Papers and Panels on > "The Gothic, The Human, & The Inhuman." > > I invite anyone interested in gothic themes to submit abstracts > for individual papers or panels which explore the gothic in relation to > "Constructions of the Human." Broadly, topics might include but are not > limited to gothic influences on identity in gender, race, or religion as > seen in gothic and horror fiction, television and films, the fine arts, or > poetry. > > More specific topics might treat "Frankenstein," "The Monk," > "Dracula," or other gothic novels and/or their adaptations; gothic poetry > (Young's "Night Thoughts" or other "Graveyard Poets," gothic ballads); the > gothic and the fine arts (Dore, Fuseli's "Nightmare"), roots of the gothic > (medieval archictecture, the slave and captivity narratives); postmodern > conceptions of the gothic (Sedgwick, et al); the female gothic > (Wollstonecraft's "Maria," Bronte's "Jane Eyre"); the Southern gothic > (O'Connor, Faulkner, etc.); the anti-gothic (Jackson's "The Lottery," > Stephen King's "Christine"); or the comic gothic ("Rocky Horror Picture > Show," "Young Frankenstein," "The Munsters," "The Adams Family.") > > For more information, please see the general CFP below. > > CONSTRUCTIONS OF THE HUMAN: > CONFLICTS IN CULTURE, IDENTITY, TECHNOLOGY > > First Annual Interdisciplinary Graduate Student Conference > CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, STANISLAUS October 17-19, 1997 > > We invite participants to explore "Constructions of the Human" in > American, British, and/or World literature from any disciplinary > perspective. Applicants working in such areas as Literature, Philosophy, > History, Sociology, Psychology, Law, the Sciences, and the Fine Arts > should submit abstracts of approximately 250 words for papers of 15 > minutes. > > Students might consider some aspect of the Human in relation to > Cyborg Theory, Film Theory, Technology and the Machine, Images of the > City, Identity, Gender/Sexuality, Reproductive Technology, The Monstrous, > Alterity, Class, Labor and Leisure, Authority, Childhood, the Sentimental, > Ethnicity, Personal/Public, and Literary vs. Nonliterary. > > Panels are especially welcome. > > A volume of essays arising from this conference is planned for virtual > publication. > > Conference Location: CSU, Stanislaus, in Northern California, is > situated midway between San Francisco and Yosemite. A day trip to > Yosemite for participants is planned. > > DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSION: April 18, 1997. > > > Send abstracts to: > > Interdisciplinary Conference Committee > English Department > c/o The Graduate Journal > California State University, Stanislaus > 801 W. Monte Vista Avenue > Turlock, CA 95382 > > Please direct questions and inquiries to: > > e-mail - gradjou@toto.csustan.edu > fax - (209) 667-3720 voice - (209) 667-3361 > > OR > Susan Campbell-Hartzell - schartze@toto.csustan.edu > schart@mlode.com > > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:39:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA165398 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:34:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02788 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:35:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAB85980; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:16:52 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9781 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:16:50 -0500 Received: from utdallas.edu (root@utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA80064 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:04:57 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09868; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:45:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from infoserv.utdallas.edu by utdallas.edu (Brelay v6.01) with BLIMP; Wed, 09 Apr 1997 10:45:55 CDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:45:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: BEAUTY Comments: To: Maryelizabeth Hart To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: It's great to be on a list where people recognize the greatness of Tepper!! I'm currently working on an article on _Women's Country_, and hope to post the citation to the list if/when I get one. To respond to Maryelizabeth's post, there's a certain irony in Tepper condemning horror writers to Hell - since she is herself a horror writer and a damn good one! She has two novels (sorry can't remember the titles, they're on the home shelf) under her own name and one published pseudonymously as E. E. Horlak called _Still Life_. All three of them left me unable to sleep for quite some time. So it's fitting that she writes such horrific scenes as those in _Side Show_ and elsewhere, as she definitely places herself in the text. Just as in _Women's Country_, the sentiment is clear: we *are* in Hell!! Edrie Sobstyl School of Arts and Humanities JO 31 University of Texas at Dallas P.O. Box 830688 Richardson Tx 75083-0688 USA (972) 883-2365 esobstyl@utdallas.edu On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > I'm a HUGE Tepper fan. However, did anyone else have problems with her > total and absolute condemnation of horror writers to Hell? Which she then > followed with an incredibly horrorific scene in _Sideshow_? > > If every author has her ups and downs, _Beauty_ had a little of both. I > think _A Plague of Angels_ and _Shadow's End_ were good Tepper without > being great Tepper. However, I was very happy with _Gibbon's Decline and > Fall_, and would love a discussion on what choice readers feel was made at > the end. And I think her current book, _The Family Tree_, may end up being > my favorite. > > > Maryelizabeth > Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 > 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 > San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX > http://www.mystgalaxy.com > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:36:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA87920 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:47:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26908 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:47:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA65072; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:36:55 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 5942 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:36:53 -0500 Received: from halcyon.com (root@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA73588 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:35:07 -0500 Received: by halcyon.com id AA22268 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:16:05 -0700 Message-ID: <199704091816.AA22268@halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:16:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Nicola, when you talking about your "bloody learning experience," & Mike, when you talk about Butler's authorial unreliability, you may be both talking about how arbitrary a reader's relationship is to any fiction text. Readers often make mistakes of "fact" (i.e., missing material in the text that makes explicit a certain interpretation-- as in the case of Lauren's "hyperempathy"-- which I did pick up on in my reading, as a very telling detail that stuck in my mind-- or even changing the details in their memory, to accord with their own preconceptions & on-going [rather than after-the-fact] interpretation), & authors-- in an act of reading their own work, not writing it, though obviously "reading" is a necessary part of the total process of "writing"-- often insist on a simplicity of a single level-- the one they consciously intended-- to their work, denying that anything could be in the text but what they consciously intended. (Eudora Welty sticks in my mind as an author who becomes enraged at readers seeing anything but the surface of her stories.) I seriously wonder if anyone reads the same piece of fiction in the same way anyone else does. I'd be willing to bet any issue of _Locus_ you might pick up would manifest such errors in its reviews. (I catch such errors there constantly: & of course this holds true for other publications, & not just _Locus_.) It's not necessarily carelessness (though if the reviewer took the time to re-read the piece being reviewed, at least some of the mistakes might be caught-- often in deep puzzlement, that s/he could have been so grossly in error). It's just that all sorts of things-- from previous reading experiences, previous conceptions of the author's work, & all sorts of personal experiences in the life of the reader-- kick in when we read, sometimes even from the very first sentence. (Which is why I don't think the author has the responsibility to hit the reader over the head with a fact: showing, not telling, is always appropriate, except in political tracts.) In my experience, even when three people who are socially close and share the same political attitudes read the same book, they discover when they talk to one another about it that they've read three different books. [I don't say "completely" different books, but *substantially* different books. They almost never remember all of the same details. They weight themes differently. They are disappointed or excited for different reasons.] & then, in the process of discussion, the person who has the most forceful & structured articulations of what s/he read ends up shaping the other two readers' memories of what *they* read.) I myself have been through this process-- with the same two other people-- with many, many books. It might not be totally off-the-wall to hypothesize that people develop a consensus about what any given piece of fiction is about strictly through public discussion (meant broadly). If so, public discussion then becomes the lens through which a particular work is read. And "public discussion," of course, includes lists like this one. Timmi Duchamp From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:39:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25872 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:39:26 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03179 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:40:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA86292; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:23:58 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11883 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:23:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ax.com (odin.ax.com [199.184.188.9]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA65440 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:21:26 -0500 Received: from [199.184.188.100] (ppp103.ax.com [199.184.188.103]) by odin.ax.com (8.8.3/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id MAA27548 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:20:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: _Beauty_ and more Tepper (long) To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Tepper's horror, written under her own name, rather than the one novel already mentioned as E.E. Horlak (_Still Life_) included two novels -- _The Bones_ and _Blood Heritage_ -- and a stunning vampire novella, "The Gardener", published in _Night Visions 6_, aka _The Bone Yard_. Her SF novels include (more or less chronologically): _The Revenants_ _King's Blood Four_* _Necromancer Nine_* _Wizard's Eleven_* _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_* _The Flight of MM_* _The Search of MM_* _Jinian Footseer_* _Devrish Daughter_* _Jinian Star-Eye_* * a trio of trilogies set in the same fantastic world _The Awakeners_ (_Northshore, Vol. I_; _Southshore, Vol. II_) _Marianne, the Magus, and the Manticore_ _Marianne, the Madame, and the Momentary Gods_ _Marianne, the Matchbox, and the Malachite Mouse_ _After Long Silence_ _The Gate to Women's Country_ _Beauty_ _Grass_ \ _Raising the Stones_ loose trilogy _Sideshow_ / _A Plague of Angels_ _Shadow's End_ _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_ _The Family Tree_ She also writes mysteries under two psuedonyms: The Jason Lynx mysteries by A.J. Orde: _A Little Neighborhood Murder_ _Death and the Dogwalker_ _Death for Old Time's Sake_ _Dead on Sunday_ (aka _Looking for the Aardvark_) _A Long Time Dead_ The Shirley McClintock mysteries by B.J. Oliphant: _Dead in the Scrub_ _The Unexpected Corpse_ _Deservedly Dead_ _Death and the Delinquent_ _Death Served up Cold_ Not that I'm an obsessive completist, or anything. But I thought folks might like to know. A lot of people I speak with feel she is too strident, and that her message gets in the way of her writing.(At least with works post _Gate..._) Any thoughts? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:40:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA231492 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:33:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08490 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:32:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA38990; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:52:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 16716 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:52:24 -0500 Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA84936 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:51:57 -0500 Received: from frogqueen.earthlink.net (Cust40.Max5.San-Francisco.CA.MS.UU.NET [153.35.235.168]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA00628 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:51:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334BFACF.37B9@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:23:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nomi Liron Organization: Bay Area Frog Kingdom/Royal Palace Subject: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: A I am a great fan of Tepper, but one thing that really bothers me is her implied stance against homosexuality. It is really apparent in passages in "Gate to Women's Country" where "gay syndrome" is explained as having originated from abnormal hormone levels during pregnancy. In the new society the women build and create from the ashes of the old, "gay syndrome" was identified and corrected at birth. I have generally found Sci Fi writers to be more open to alternative forms of sexuality, so the sentiment puzzles me. Does anyone else have difficulties with this issue? drink water, nomi From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 21:18:24 1997 To: Joel VanLaven From: Laura Quilter Subject: Tepper & Brin Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <334BFACF.37B9@earthlink.net> > However, she seems harsh and angry. She repeatedly comes back >to religion as an all-encompassing evil. I'm not much of a supporter of >most organized religions, but I feel like she takes it a bit too far. I >had noticed mostly a distinct lack of homosexuality in her work. (though >_Gibbon's_Decline_and_Fall_ has a little bit). I suppose we must read her >writing with salt and wariness as we should everything. Yes, sometimes she's not very subtle. And I think her work varies in quality. I was, for instance, very disappointed in SHADOW'S END and A PLAGUE OF ANGELS. But really enjoyed BEAUTY, GRASS, GATE, some of the True Games books, and some of the Marianne books. Also I thought GIBBON'S DECLINE AND FALL was better in comparison to the SHADOW'S END and A PLAGUE OF ANGELS, but parts of it were forced. Just finished THE FAMILY TREE which I think I like better than anything since BEAUTY. Yes, she is very *anti* to some types of religions - she really seems to have it in for fundamentalist patriarchal religions, like Xtianity and Islam. Can't say I blame her. THE FAMILY TREE, however, has a Gaea/pagan religion in it, and it's treated *very* positively. Re: "we must read her writing with salt and wariness as we should everything" -- I wish I could bottle that idea and give it away to people for free! Critical thinking -- if all of my fellow librarians would embrace that concept I wouldn't have to spend so much time arguing against censorware, etc. Arrggh. Sorry for the off-topic rant. > On a side note, has anyone else read much David Brin? I love his books. >In many ways they seem feminist/queer. (Though perhaps not with as much of >a focus on that aspect as other writers). In particular, _Glory_Season_ >is an interesting look into feminist issues without being overly utopian >or overly critical. (In my opinion). In some of his other books he refers >to humans as "fems" and "mels" (women and men). This breaks the male >domination of the general term for human (can't remember what he used for >that). I thought that was neat. I like Brin as a story-teller and think he's equitable in his treatments of men and women, for the most part. But a lot of people seem to find him anti-feminist, and had problems with GLORY SEASON, finding parts of it even sexist. In my opinion, he probably is more-or-less a feminist by the same terms that most people are: they think people should be treated equally. But he may not consider himself a feminist, and I don't think he regards gender & gender issues as a serious issue, or considers them very much in his work. I think GLORY SEASON was an exercise in world-building more than a creation of a feminist utopia, but he certainly drew some of his ideas from utopian works that were consciously feminist. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 21:25:37 1997 To: feministsf@listserv.uic.edu From: Laura Quilter Subject: Tepper & Brin Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: Message-Id: > However, she seems harsh and angry. She repeatedly comes back >to religion as an all-encompassing evil. I'm not much of a supporter of >most organized religions, but I feel like she takes it a bit too far. I >had noticed mostly a distinct lack of homosexuality in her work. (though >_Gibbon's_Decline_and_Fall_ has a little bit). I suppose we must read her >writing with salt and wariness as we should everything. Yes, sometimes she's not very subtle. And I think her work varies in quality. I was, for instance, very disappointed in SHADOW'S END and A PLAGUE OF ANGELS. But really enjoyed BEAUTY, GRASS, GATE, some of the True Games books, and some of the Marianne books. Also I thought GIBBON'S DECLINE AND FALL was better in comparison to the SHADOW'S END and A PLAGUE OF ANGELS, but parts of it were forced. Just finished THE FAMILY TREE which I think I like better than anything since BEAUTY. Yes, she is very *anti* to some types of religions - she really seems to have it in for fundamentalist patriarchal religions, like Xtianity and Islam. Can't say I blame her. THE FAMILY TREE, however, has a Gaea/pagan religion in it, and it's treated *very* positively. Re: "we must read her writing with salt and wariness as we should everything" -- I wish I could bottle that idea and give it away to people for free! Critical thinking -- if all of my fellow librarians would embrace that concept I wouldn't have to spend so much time arguing against censorware, etc. Arrggh. Sorry for the off-topic rant. > On a side note, has anyone else read much David Brin? I love his books. >In many ways they seem feminist/queer. (Though perhaps not with as much of >a focus on that aspect as other writers). In particular, _Glory_Season_ >is an interesting look into feminist issues without being overly utopian >or overly critical. (In my opinion). In some of his other books he refers >to humans as "fems" and "mels" (women and men). This breaks the male >domination of the general term for human (can't remember what he used for >that). I thought that was neat. I like Brin as a story-teller and think he's equitable in his treatments of men and women, for the most part. But a lot of people seem to find him anti-feminist, and had problems with GLORY SEASON, finding parts of it even sexist. In my opinion, he probably is more-or-less a feminist by the same terms that most people are: they think people should be treated equally. But he may not consider himself a feminist, and I don't think he regards gender & gender issues as a serious issue, or considers them very much in his work. I think GLORY SEASON was an exercise in world-building more than a creation of a feminist utopia, but he certainly drew some of his ideas from utopian works that were consciously feminist. From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:41:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA173074 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:10:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12699 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:12:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21358; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:43:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 18482 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:43:05 -0500 Received: from utdallas.edu (root@utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA41286 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:41:58 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29887; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:41:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from infoserv.utdallas.edu by utdallas.edu (Brelay v6.01) with BLIMP; Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:41:34 CDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:41:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ Comments: To: sue hagedorn To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Sue, what a joy to find someone else teaching _Dawn_ in a class on what it means to be human!! I tried it out for the first time last semester and it was a rousing success. The bookstore bought up the last of the "old" covers with the buxom white brunette featured prominently (of course with jumpsuit open to reveal cleavage), and many of my (145) students also missed the mention of race. Since race and sex are problematized throughout the course (along with class), this object lesson made my claims more striking to the students. A number of students who dreaded being "forced" to read sf, which they expressed a hatred for without having read before, had their minds changed and began to devour the rest of the trilogy, and a number of African-American women students were particularly pleased, delighted, and inspired to have been introduced to Butler. Any other comments on *teaching* Butler? edrie *********************************** Edrie Sobstyl School of Arts and Humanities JO 31 University of Texas at Dallas P.O. Box 830688 Richardson Tx 75083-0688 USA (972) 883-2365 esobstyl@utdallas.edu On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, sue hagedorn wrote: > --surprise> >surprise--they actually put obviously black characters on the covers > >(which wasn't the case when the books first came out). > > Yes--It's very interesting, too, that when I had a class of freshmen read > Dawn, they were at first oblivious to any mention of race (that book > illustrator too obviously had not read the book itself)--when it was > pointed out to them, they changed some of their perceptions about the story > line. That helped me make a point (my "theme" was "What Does it Mean to be > Human?")--but I was a bit surprised at the reaction. (I guess I've been > reading SF too long--since my first Ace double back in the '50s!) > > Sue > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:41:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA135712 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:14:22 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12936 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:15:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAB41412; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:47:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 18621 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:47:09 -0500 Received: from utdallas.edu (root@utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA90410 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:46:44 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00283; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:46:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from infoserv.utdallas.edu by utdallas.edu (Brelay v6.01) with BLIMP; Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:46:23 CDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edrie Sobstyl Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <334BFACF.37B9@earthlink.net> Status: RO X-Status: Hi Nomi, I am currently working through the anti-homosexual stance of _Women's Country_ in my article, although it's not central to my discussion. I would like to recommend Wendy Pearson's article "After the (Homo)Sexual: A Queer Analysis of Anti-Sexuality in Sheri S. Tepper's _The Gate to Women's Country_" published in Science-Fiction Studies Volume 23 1996 pp. 199-226 for a thorough discussion. edrie *********************************** Edrie Sobstyl School of Arts and Humanities JO 31 University of Texas at Dallas P.O. Box 830688 Richardson Tx 75083-0688 USA (972) 883-2365 esobstyl@utdallas.edu On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Nomi Liron wrote: > I am a great fan of Tepper, but one thing that really bothers me is > her implied stance against homosexuality. It is really apparent in passages > in "Gate to Women's Country" where "gay syndrome" is explained as having > originated from abnormal hormone levels during pregnancy. In the new society > the women build and create from the ashes of the old, "gay syndrome" was > identified and corrected at birth. > I have generally found Sci Fi writers to be more open to alternative > forms of sexuality, so the sentiment puzzles me. > Does anyone else have difficulties with this issue? > > drink water, nomi > From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:42:17 1997 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:31:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lauramd@tigger.cc.uic.edu To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality In-Reply-To: <334BFACF.37B9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: This is interesting to me too. Actually, in her most recent work (FAMILY TREE) she has one character go off on a tirade about discrimination (just as casually as she mentions the gay thing in GTWC). The character rants about all the various forms of discrimination and treating people as inferior, and she includes homosexuality as a form of discrimination. The only thing in Tepper's works that I've ever considered homophobic was that passage in GTWC. And what I've concluded was that GTWC was a thought experiment in the grand style. It was NOT her ideal utopia. She posited some people, a situation, and decisions they might take. I think it is reasonable to guess that people who found a specific cause for homosexuality might eliminate that. Is that just or even a good idea? I don't think so and for personal reasons certainly hope no such thing ever comes to pass. But it's a possible decision. The leaders of Women's Country made a lot of decisions that *I* find ethically questionable. I think Tepper does, too, which is why the matriarch figure (using the term loosely) calls the leaders "the damned few." Of course, one could also assume that she is, or has been, somewhat "homophobic," but believes (at least now) that economic / political discrimination against queers is wrong. On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Nomi Liron wrote: > I am a great fan of Tepper, but one thing that really bothers me is > her implied stance against homosexuality. It is really apparent in passages > in "Gate to Women's Country" where "gay syndrome" is explained as having > originated from abnormal hormone levels during pregnancy. In the new society > the women build and create from the ashes of the old, "gay syndrome" was > identified and corrected at birth. > I have generally found Sci Fi writers to be more open to alternative > forms of sexuality, so the sentiment puzzles me. > Does anyone else have difficulties with this issue? > > drink water, nomi > Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:43:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA188536 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:23:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17958 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:25:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA73896; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:09:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20411 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:09:03 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA67268 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:07:27 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 97 19:07 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:07:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970409023723_-1603209112@emout09.mail.aol.com> Status: U On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Barbara Harman wrote: > Jack Zipes is a local (Minnesotan) who teaches at the University of > Minnesota. "Don't Bet on the Prince" sounds like one of his. He also did a > collection of all the different variations on Little Red Riding Hood. NH: I'd really be interested in reading this, if anyone knows the title. I'll try looking it up on my public library database too. Though > I don't remember the title, I'm sure it was provocative as well. Thanks for > the correction on "The Armless Maiden." I have not made it to the end of the > book yet (chilling indeed!) so was not aware of Windling's more personal > association. NH: Oops. Sorry, Barbara, and anyone else for whom I may have revealed too much too soon. -nalo "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:44:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA72344 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:45:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19059 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:46:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA93734; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:31:13 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20651 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:31:09 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA73730 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:20:44 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33887; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:22:21 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:22:16 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <334BFACF.37B9@earthlink.net> Status: U On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Nomi Liron wrote: > I am a great fan of Tepper, but one thing that really bothers me is > her implied stance against homosexuality. It is really apparent in passages > in "Gate to Women's Country" where "gay syndrome" is explained as having > originated from abnormal hormone levels during pregnancy. In the new society > the women build and create from the ashes of the old, "gay syndrome" was > identified and corrected at birth. > I have generally found Sci Fi writers to be more open to alternative > forms of sexuality, so the sentiment puzzles me. > Does anyone else have difficulties with this issue? > > drink water, nomi > Yes. I too have some problems with Tepper in that regard among others. I really apreciate some of her ideas and like her writing style sometimes as well. However, she seems harsh and angry. She repeatedly comes back to religion as an all-encompassing evil. I'm not much of a supporter of most organized religions, but I feel like she takes it a bit too far. I had noticed mostly a distinct lack of homosexuality in her work. (though _Gibbon's_Decline_and_Fall_ has a little bit). I suppose we must read her writing with salt and wariness as we should everything. About sexuality and feminism. I think my personal feminist philosophy might best be described as "Queer Theory." I am of the opinion that we must examine and quite probably replace the societal distinctions that we now make. What is more, I think that as a society and as individuals we must always be conciously examining everything that we can. I don't think we can ever rest on our laurels. I don't think that Sexuality and Gender mean much. Also, they are very tightly tied together. Is there even such a thing as sexuality? In a world where gender is motly irrelevant would there even be questions about sexuality? In my experience there has rarely (perhaps never) been a time when someone's specific sexuality and/or sex/gender mattered much except as determined by society. There are a myriad different kinds of people, actually the same number as there are people. The person who is perfectly normal in every way is the real freak. It seems like many books that explore Queer ideas almost have to be sci-fi (that or non-fiction). How better to explore these ideas than imagining worlds where things are different. On a side note, has anyone else read much David Brin? I love his books. In many ways they seem feminist/queer. (Though perhaps not with as much of a focus on that aspect as other writers). In particular, _Glory_Season_ is an interesting look into feminist issues without being overly utopian or overly critical. (In my opinion). In some of his other books he refers to humans as "fems" and "mels" (women and men). This breaks the male domination of the general term for human (can't remember what he used for that). I thought that was neat. Love the list, just too much a bad writer to say much (sigh). -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:43:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA57416 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:33:56 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18513 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:35:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA85232; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:15:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20343 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:15:02 -0500 Received: from oakridge.com (oakridge.com [198.95.204.3]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA68590 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:04:30 -0500 Received: from [198.95.204.15] by oakridge.com (8.6.12/V8Sendmail-OakRidge-BATS) id PAA20772; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:58:35 -0700 References: <334BFACF.37B9@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:13:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Wigod Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <334B6EF9.E52@griffin.co.za> Status: U >Nomi I must say it depends greatly on individuals. I for one am >uncomfortble with gays[ doesn't mean I'll go gay bashing], it's just the >way I am but I'm fine with lesbians. I have noticed that a lot, most >people are fine with homosexuality in the opposite sex. I agree though >usually authors are a little more open but then it also depends on the >section of SF aimed at. > >Jay Hahaha! Forgive me for posting off-topic, but I just couldn't let this one slide. "People" aren't fine with homosexuality in the opposite sex - MEN are ok with _women_ having sex with each other, and only because they envision lesbian sex to be the type they see in straight guy pornography - you know - lots of peach satin and long red nails and wishing "if only a man would join us" kinda crap. I think the reason men feel threatened by male homosexuality is because they know better than anyone how sexually agressive men can be (this is not entirely their fault, BTW - a lot of it is pure socialization - ever been to a lesbian bar? You get to watch dozens of women standing around wishing someone would ask them to dance! :-D) - it never _occurs_ to them that women could be sexually agressive at all. So men get creepy when they think _they_ could get hit on with the same fervor they hit on women with! I don't think most straight men take lesbianism very seriously - there's a tendency to think "if they just met the right guy." The concept of lesbianism has historically been so difficult for men to wrap their minds around that, while there are thousands of anti-sodomy laws on the books throughout the world, there are very few anti-lesbian-sex laws. Getting off my soapbox now.........with a promise to reply on-topic next time! Laura From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:10:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA97084 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:32:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24608 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:27:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA38038; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:03:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22025 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:03:01 -0500 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (mail.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.51]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA79660 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:02:45 -0500 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20350 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:02:43 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:02:43 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Tepper's essentialism, was Re: homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > > Yes. I too have some problems with Tepper in that regard among others. > I really apreciate some of her ideas and like her writing style sometimes > as well. me too, but not for the reasons you detail below. I enjoyed reading _The Gate to Women's Country_. I found it well-crafted and thought-provoking. The reaction I had was perhaps a knee-jerk reaction against essentialism. The ending truths (which I won't go into here because those who haven't read it should discover them within the book not without) seemed strikingly different from the assumptions that seem to underlie the other fem sf I've read. Namely, it seems most fem sf assumes a social constructionist attitude towards gender roles (i.e. that our society is responsible for the bulk of the differences between men and women--we consciously and unconsciously educate the sexes differently). Tepper, however, was so laden with natural differences, genetic differences, b/n men and women that I had trouble buying her premise. Perhaps I am spoiled by _The Female Man_ and _The Wanderground_ but I found the "natures" of the women in the matriarchy less believable...(would they really be pining for the men so much? and if they would, wouldn't some be pro-active enough to "rectify" the situation on a societal level?) However, I did find it thought-provoking and an interesting switch in ideology--and that's all I really want of any well-written novel. Andrea > However, she seems harsh and angry. She repeatedly comes back > to religion as an all-encompassing evil. I'm not much of a supporter of > most organized religions, but I feel like she takes it a bit too far. I > had noticed mostly a distinct lack of homosexuality in her work. (though > _Gibbon's_Decline_and_Fall_ has a little bit). I suppose we must read her > writing with salt and wariness as we should everything. > > -- Joel VanLaven > From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:10:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAB90466 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:34:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24890 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:34:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA68050; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:07:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22049 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:07:01 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA80106 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:06:11 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Wed, 9 Apr 97 21:06 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:06:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Zipes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: NH: Thanks, Lissa! -nalo On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > yes, the book is called _Don't Bet on the Prince: Contemporary Feminist > Fairy Tales in North America and England_ by Jack Zipes. Routledge... ISBN > 0-415-90263-0 for those of you who want to order it. > > his other one you guys mentioned is _The Trials and Tribulations of Little > Red Riding Hood_ (1983). > > -lissa > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Wed Apr 09 19:44:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA196200 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:28:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21602 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:30:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA92296; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:19:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 21413 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:19:05 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA52424 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:17:38 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA06668 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14909 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:32:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Zipes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu yes, the book is called _Don't Bet on the Prince: Contemporary Feminist Fairy Tales in North America and England_ by Jack Zipes. Routledge... ISBN 0-415-90263-0 for those of you who want to order it. his other one you guys mentioned is _The Trials and Tribulations of Little Red Riding Hood_ (1983). -lissa if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:10:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA186788 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:34:18 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26350 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:05:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA67842; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:45:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22329 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:45:03 -0500 Received: from upsmot02.msn.com (upsmot02.msn.com [204.95.110.79]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA40338 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 20:44:24 -0500 Received: from upmajb02.msn.com (upmajb02.msn.com [204.95.110.74]) by upsmot02.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id SAA25765 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:40:10 -0700 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:39:27 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roberta Wolff Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: As a voracious reader, and sometimes writer, it occurs to me that if one must spend a great deal of time figuring out what the author meant, then perhaps the author did not tell the story. Or the sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar syndrome. Roberta's Cat-- onegreycat@msn.com greycat1@airmail.net ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Nalo Hopkinson Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 1997 6:43 AM To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: NH: I see this happening often, with all kinds of artmaking. Sometimes the artist is not the best person to ask for an analysis of her work; a lot of it happens on an unconscious level. -nalo From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:10:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA135126 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:45:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28090 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:47:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA34750; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:32:39 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22899 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:32:37 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA73678 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:31:51 -0500 Received: from akr-oh1-03.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh1-03.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.35]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA16168 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:17:52 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970409223436.47b70b6c@kent.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:17:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Heh. As a voracious reader, and sometimes critic, I *like* trying to figure out what the author meant. If it's so obvious that I don't have to think about it, then I wonder why they didn't just write an essay... But it's interesting that you conflate "what the author meant" (meaning) with "story"... meaning is action? >As a voracious reader, and sometimes writer, it occurs to me that if one must >spend a great deal of time figuring out what the author meant, then perhaps >the author did not tell the story. > >Or the sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar syndrome. > > >Roberta's Cat-- onegreycat@msn.com > greycat1@airmail.net Heather "This is not an e-mail." hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:11:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA116208 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:31:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29955 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:26:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA38134; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:13:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 24001 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:13:04 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA59860 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:12:23 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 97 23:12 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:12:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Tepper & Brin To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: "Censorware?" I worked in public libraries in Toronto for nine years, but never heard of this. Sounds nasty. What is it? -nalo "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:11:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20514 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:19:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00999 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:45:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA75858; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:33:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 24648 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:33:01 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA30836 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:32:29 -0500 Received: from akr-oh1-03.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh1-03.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.35]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA05175 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:18:30 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970409233513.3a3f5d7c@kent.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:18:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: fear/monsters (gender diffs) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Sorry it's taken so long, mala--this has been hell week... >heather, what differences did you find in fear between male and female >characters? > mala The differences between male and female-authored monsters were amazingly distinct. Without fail, all the male-authored monsters represented some aspect of traditional society that came under critique within the story. Additionally, the authors used "typical" means of evoking a fear-response from the reader: emphasis on non-human traits, and an "us-versus-them" type of mentality. *None* of the female-authored monsters were intended to evoke fear or disgust on the part of the reader (though they did on the part of other characters). Also (and this is what blew my mind), they *all* contained a pronounced male-female duality, a sort of bi-genderedness. Aditionally, in 2 of the stories the female-authored monster was the protagonist; in the 3rd, the object of love of the protagonist. In the male-authored stories, the monster was never the protagonist. I don't know if the women intended their bi-gendered monsters so that any reader could identify with being a misfit or not--it's tempting, but ultimately futile, to read it that way. But the bi-genderedness in a non-fearful setting is an interesting means of reverting the figure of monster to its original latin meaning, as a sign of wonder. It would be indeed "wonder-ful" if men and women could meet in a single locus, discuss, then go their separate ways (as one of the characters in a Canadian story says, as well as Luce Irigaray, a French feminist critic...). Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:10:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA99880 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:59:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03062 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:29:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA90554; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:15:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25795 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:15:12 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA87122 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:14:27 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 9 Apr 97 23:07:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:07:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199704091816.AA22268@halcyon.com> Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: > Nicola, when you talking about your "bloody learning experience," > & Mike, when you talk about Butler's authorial unreliability, > you may be both talking about how arbitrary a reader's relationship > is to any fiction text. Readers often make mistakes of "fact" > (i.e., missing material in the text that makes explicit a certain > interpretation-- as in the case of Lauren's "hyperempathy"-- which > I did pick up on in my reading, as a very telling detail that > stuck in my mind-- or even changing the details in their memory, > to accord with their own preconceptions & on-going [rather than > after-the-fact] interpretation), & authors-- in an act of reading > their own work, not writing it, though obviously "reading" is > a necessary part of the total process of "writing"-- often insist > on a simplicity of a single level-- the one they consciously intended-- > to their work, denying that anything could be in the text but > what they consciously intended. (Eudora Welty sticks in my mind > as an author who becomes enraged at readers seeing anything but > the surface of her stories.) I seriously wonder if anyone reads > the same piece of fiction in the same way anyone else does. I'd > be willing to bet any issue of _Locus_ you might pick up would > manifest such errors in its reviews. (I catch such errors there > constantly: & of course this holds true for other publications, > & not just _Locus_.) It's not necessarily carelessness (though > if the reviewer took the time to re-read the piece being reviewed, > at least some of the mistakes might be caught-- often in deep > puzzlement, that s/he could have been so grossly in error). It's > just that all sorts of things-- from previous reading experiences, > previous conceptions of the author's work, & all sorts of personal > experiences in the life of the reader-- kick in when we read, > sometimes even from the very first sentence. (Which is why I > don't think the author has the responsibility to hit the reader > over the head with a fact: showing, not telling, is always appropriate, > except in political tracts.) In my experience, even when three > people who are socially close and share the same political attitudes > read the same book, they discover when they talk to one another > about it that they've read three different books. [I don't say > "completely" different books, but *substantially* different books. > They almost never remember all of the same details. They weight > themes differently. They are disappointed or excited for different > reasons.] & then, in the process of discussion, the person who > has the most forceful & structured articulations of what s/he > read ends up shaping the other two readers' memories of what *they* > read.) I myself have been through this process-- with the same > two other people-- with many, many books. > > It might not be totally off-the-wall to hypothesize that people > develop a consensus about what any given piece of fiction is about > strictly through public discussion (meant broadly). If so, public > discussion then becomes the lens through which a particular work > is read. > > And "public discussion," of course, includes lists like this one. > > Timmi Duchamp > I suspect that you're correct, Timmi. You know, I've always been a bit skeptical of reader-response theory, but what you're suggesting above is a pretty good defense of its legitimacy. Mike Levy From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:11:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA143996 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:33:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03213 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:32:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA30918; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:22:27 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25948 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:22:25 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA88130 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:21:58 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 9 Apr 97 23:14:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:14:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <334B6D90.2949@griffin.co.za> Status: O X-Status: > > People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy > Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about > something. Or with Robert Johnson's book one of the Lightbringer trilogy > who brings in the theme of vampires..OOO Gothic and vapirism. It's just > a book for crying out loud, somebodies imagination. > > When I was at school one of my subjects was English, of course we > studied poetry and mostly South African poets since I live in South > Africa. One day we had a interview with one of the poets Sipho Sipambla. > About 80% of the teachers interpretations of the poems made him either > laugh your sigh. Humans read too much into things. > That's all I can say. We take ourselves to seriously and must learn to > laugh at ourselves. Try it sometime it might be refreshing. > > Jay > Dragonheart. > Yes indeed, Jay, people do read books to enjoy them, but they also read them for a number of other reasons which are equally valid. And many people who read for enjoyment find a significant part of that enjoyment through the process of examining a book closely to see what makes it tick. If that isn't your cup of tea, fine, but don't deny us our pleasure, okay? Mike Levy From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:10:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA56234 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:08:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03510 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:39:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA38036; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:31:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26044 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:31:24 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA73966 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:29:31 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 9 Apr 97 23:22:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:22:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > As Nicola Griffith said in an earlier post, more or less, how far can we > > trust an author when her statements about a story seem contradicted by > > the story itself? > > NH: I see this happening often, with all kinds of artmaking. Sometimes > the artist is not the best person to ask for an analysis of her work; a > lot of it happens on an unconscious level. > > -nalo > I'm reminded of an interview I did with the children's fantasy writer Natalie Babbitt for a book I was writing about her work. My wife, Sandy Lindow, who took part in the interview suggested that the plot of Babbitt's most recent picturebook, Nellie, A Cat on Her Own, sounded very similar to Babbitt's own life and that the cat's name--Nellie--sounded similar to Natalie. Babbitt's immediate response was to look blank and then say that she thought that the name similarity was probably coincidental because it was a last minute substitution. All the time she'd been writing the book, she'd been planning on calling the cat by a different name, Nettie. After she said that, we all sort of looked at each other for a minute, then Babbitt, with a bemused expression on her face, said something along the lines of "Oh my! You don't suppose..." And then we all laughed. Mike Levy From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:10:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA170318 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:48:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03807 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:48:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA87074; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:35:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26066 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:35:06 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA69846 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:34:53 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 9 Apr 97 23:27:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, sue hagedorn wrote: > --surprise, > >surprise--they actually put obviously black characters on the covers > >(which wasn't the case when the books first came out). > > Yes--It's very interesting, too, that when I had a class of freshmen read > Dawn, they were at first oblivious to any mention of race (that book > illustrator too obviously had not read the book itself)--when it was > pointed out to them, they changed some of their perceptions about the story > line. That helped me make a point (my "theme" was "What Does it Mean to be > Human?")--but I was a bit surprised at the reaction. (I guess I've been > reading SF too long--since my first Ace double back in the '50s!) > > Sue > The white character on the cover of the original edition of Butler's Dawn was not a result of the artist's failing to read the book, or failing to notice that the protagonist was actually Afican American. It was a conscious editorial decision designed to increase sales, based on the belief that having an African American on the cover of an SF novel would cost more sales by white book buyers than it would pick up sales by African American book buyers. Sad, but true. Mike Levy From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:12:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA191252 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:40:34 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA06013 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:42:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA52310; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:32:44 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26749 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:32:42 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA30082 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:31:08 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 97 01:31 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: :) Yeah, like that. -nalo On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > > > As Nicola Griffith said in an earlier post, more or less, how far can we > > > trust an author when her statements about a story seem contradicted by > > > the story itself? > > > > NH: I see this happening often, with all kinds of artmaking. Sometimes > > the artist is not the best person to ask for an analysis of her work; a > > lot of it happens on an unconscious level. > > > > -nalo > > > I'm reminded of an interview I did with the children's fantasy writer > Natalie Babbitt for a book I was writing about her work. My wife, Sandy > Lindow, who took part in the interview suggested that the plot of > Babbitt's most recent picturebook, Nellie, A Cat on Her Own, sounded very > similar to Babbitt's own life and that the cat's name--Nellie--sounded > similar to Natalie. Babbitt's immediate response was to look blank and > then say that she thought that the name similarity was probably > coincidental because it was a last minute substitution. All the time > she'd been writing the book, she'd been planning on calling the cat by a > different name, Nettie. After she said that, we all sort of looked at > each other for a minute, then Babbitt, with a bemused expression on her > face, said something along the lines of "Oh my! You don't suppose..." > And then we all laughed. > > Mike Levy > "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:12:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA115222 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:15:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA07264 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:16:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA41036; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:01:23 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26982 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:01:19 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA28922 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:59:04 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 97 01:59 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:59:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: sparked by both sue's and Michael's comments: sue, I had much the same reaction as your students to Samuel Delany's work. Read much of it completely oblivious to the race issues. Then realised he was Black, and was in some cases addressing race. I re-read more carefully; big difference! And as to the publishers' choices of cover art, I seem to remember reading somewhere that some publisher had determined that if they put non-White people on their covers, White readers would assume the books 'weren't for them' and wouldn't buy them. I don't believe that that's true of all White readers, or even necessarily the majority of them, and even if it's so, I think it's because the publishing industry has fostered that behaviour. Interestingly, non-White readers (again, this is all my vague memory of something I read once) didn't limit their reading to books with people of their own race on the covers. Hmm, I wonder why that might be? [Tongue in cheek, for those of you whose terminals don't have the emotion chip.] I did once buy the Timescape pbk edition of Alfred Bester's _Golem 100,_ knowing nothing about Alfred Bester, solely because there was a Black woman on the cover who had - gasp! - African features, down to the onion butt (which was easy to see, because she was wearing nothing but see-through panties and a gold headband). I bought it, hardly daring to hope that the woman on the front was actually the protagonist, and that the book would actually be good; that would have been too much; identification and literary excellence all occuring in one package. Well, I was in for a surprise. The two main characters are a Black woman and a South Asian man. The book was surprising, energetic, and experimental, blending text and visual art. I'm glad I own it. (And I just noticed that the cover artist is a woman -- Rowena.) Wonder if Warner could be interested in re-issuing the Neveryona series with Butler-like covers? :) -nalo On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, sue hagedorn wrote: > > > --surprise, > > >surprise--they actually put obviously black characters on the covers > > >(which wasn't the case when the books first came out). > > > > Yes--It's very interesting, too, that when I had a class of freshmen read > > Dawn, they were at first oblivious to any mention of race (that book > > illustrator too obviously had not read the book itself)--when it was > > pointed out to them, they changed some of their perceptions about the story > > line. That helped me make a point (my "theme" was "What Does it Mean to be > > Human?")--but I was a bit surprised at the reaction. (I guess I've been > > reading SF too long--since my first Ace double back in the '50s!) > > > > Sue > > > > The white character on the cover of the original edition of Butler's Dawn > was not a result of the artist's failing to read the book, or failing to > notice that the protagonist was actually Afican American. It was a > conscious editorial decision designed to increase sales, based on the > belief that having an African American on the cover of an SF novel would > cost more sales by white book buyers than it would pick up sales by > African American book buyers. Sad, but true. > > Mike Levy > "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:15:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA75798 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:16:12 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28057 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:13:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA39458; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:51:53 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26277 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:51:51 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA88472 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:49:30 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA21834; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:49:35 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id KAA14982; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: After the mention of the homophobic passage in The Gate To Women's Country yesterday I ran home and flipped through the whole book again, which I read quite a while before I came out, and never remembered any mention of queers. Of course I was at the time annoyed with the biological determinism. Looking at the book again her treatment of homosexuality quite threw me. Not only does she posit a simple biological cause for homosexuality (by the way I HATE this word), mentioned the elimination of queers without even a hint that this was a form of genocide and inappropriate, but she also manages to mingle the issues of pedophilia and homosexuality. This is, of course, a classic form of homophobia, particularly against gay men, one that villifies queers and queerness by association with crimes against children. And, of course, one exposed as a lie by respected research. Yes, Tepper is creating a world, and every element of that world does not necessarily reflect her own world view, it is a thought experiement. However raising such an important and contentious issue as the origin of queerness and the genocide of queers without even batting a literary eye is terribly irresponsible. Absolutely no discussion, let alone criticism, of the elimination of queers occurs in Gate. And neither the passage in question nor the "history" it refers to are important to the rest of the novel. It is gratuitous, AND handled badly. The only need for the passage on queers in Gate is to support the underlying theory of heterosexuaity in the book, the undeniable, instinctual, animal need for heterosexual sex which the characters exhibit and much of the plot turns on. And of course the ways in which many of the characters decisions and actions are driven by their uncontrollable heterosexual urges relates back to the biological essentialism of the book. On the flip side I stronly recommend a story called Coccoon which deals with the question If there was a biological cause of homosexuality discovered what would happen. It's a sophisticated and complex look at the question in a near future society. I think it's by Greg Bear, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm certainly interested in what other people think of this. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I view it as something of a nightmare that the sodomites are so brazen." Bigot Jesse Helms From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:20:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA132208 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:11:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18210 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:12:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA90976; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:51:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 31045 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:51:02 -0500 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA93900 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:50:34 -0500 Received: by halcyon.com id AA27910 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:50:27 -0700 Message-ID: <199704101750.AA27910@halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:50:27 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: "Cocoon" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Robin, "Cocoon" is by Greg Egan. It first appeared in the May, 1994 issue of _Asimov's' SF_. It's been reprinted in Dozois's _Year's Best_ Vol 12. Timmi Duchamp From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:22:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA72334 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:06:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00737 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:06:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA93104; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:47:32 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 33992 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:47:29 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA51456 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:47:05 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA04520 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970410154521_50690803@emout07.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:46:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stone Waters MD Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: I think it would be unfair to condem Tepper as anti-gay based merely on her description a "the gay sundrome" caused by a hormonal imbalance that was fixed at birth. I don't recall the "gay syndrome" was a big part of the book, but I read it a long time ago and may have forgotten. So we should give Tepper a break here. Interestingly, there has been some evidence to suggest homosexuality (among a wide variety of "conditions") may have an underlying genetic cause. Either way, I feel sci-fi writers (fantasy writer's are excused here) have a responsibility to represent the scientific fund of knowledge accurately and honestly.This includes feminist theory. If a scifi writer, feminist or otherwise, crosses the blurry line of plausibe speculation that is based on a reasonable/believable extrapolation of scientific fact, it is no longer scifi but fantasy or something else. Stone Waters MD From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:22:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA116868 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:15:14 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24739 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:14:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA48440; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:55:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 32910 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:55:22 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA42720 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:54:25 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA16050 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17740 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: dear all: i'm looking for two books. two books that i've never read. i'm teaching a class where i'd like to use a comparable book to _Frankenstein_ ... i'd like it to be both sci-fi and fem AND not extraordinarily difficult (like, say, Le Guin's _Dispossessed_)(*gasp*)... my theme (or, as we silly english teachers like to call it, "body of discourse") is going to be called something along the lines of "Beauty and the Beast" -- i think i'm going to use _Beowulf_ together with _Grendel_ ... the second book i'm looking for is for a class on family... i'd like to, again, use a sci-fi fem book that i haven't read before: one that has an unusual family... i may be using _Fried Green Tomatoes_ and _Momaday_ and _I am One of You Forever_ any ideas? thanks, -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:23:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA146178 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:29:27 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03103 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:28:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA71884; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:11:29 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 34256 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:11:28 -0500 Received: from infoserv.nlc-bnc.ca (infoserv.nlc-bnc.ca [142.78.40.7]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA78234 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:59:20 -0500 Received: from PC040170.nlc-bnc.ca ([142.78.40.170]) by infoserv.nlc-bnc.ca (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA448 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:57:00 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334D704E.5A5C@nlc-bnc.ca> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:57:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joslyn Grassby Organization: National Library of Canada Subject: Comparable book to Frankenstein (sf , fem, and interesting family) To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: lissa bloomer wrote: > > dear all: > > i'm looking for two books. two books that i've never read. > > i'm teaching a class where i'd like to use a comparable book to > _Frankenstein_ ... i'd like it to be both sci-fi and fem AND not > extraordinarily difficult (like, say, Le Guin's _Dispossessed_)(*gasp*)... > lissa, a few titles that come to mind (away from the book shelves): Clay's Ark Octavia Butler More than Human Theodore Sturgeon Plague of Change L. Warren Douglas (a bit removed) Remnant Population Elizabeth Moon Courtship Rite Donald Kingsbury Joslyn Grassby From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:27:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA237690 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:18:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18933 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:20:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA67438; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:05:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 37706 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:05:03 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA77738 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:03:38 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA19535 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:56:36 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970410180555.21273540@academic.truman.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:05:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: At 15:09 4/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >dear all: > >i'm looking for two books. two books that i've never read. > >i'm teaching a class where i'd like to use a comparable book to >_Frankenstein_ ... i'd like it to be both sci-fi and fem AND not >extraordinarily difficult (like, say, Le Guin's _Dispossessed_)(*gasp*)... > Have you considered _Dracula_? It's later than _Frankenstein_, not very difficult, and has at least ONE strong woman character. > >my theme (or, as we silly english teachers like to call it, "body of >discourse") is going to be called something along the lines of "Beauty and >the Beast" -- i think i'm going to use _Beowulf_ together with _Grendel_ >... > Still sounds like _Dracula_ to me. (More fantasy than sf, perhaps?) >the second book i'm looking for is for a class on family... i'd like to, >again, use a sci-fi fem book that i haven't read before: one that has an >unusual family... i may be using _Fried Green Tomatoes_ and _Momaday_ and >_I am One of You Forever_ > >any ideas? Judith Moffett's _Pennterra_, if you can get it. Boy are the families DIFFERENT! > >thanks, > >-lissa bloomer > > > > >if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > >elisabeth bloomer >instructor, english >virginia tech >ebloomer@vt.edu >540.231.2445 > Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:27:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA54668 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:18:55 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18967 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:21:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA88972; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:06:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 37717 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:06:04 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA69646 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:05:39 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA22887 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:58:50 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970410180809.2127e68e@academic.truman.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:06:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <970410154521_50690803@emout07.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: At 15:46 4/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >I think it would be unfair to condem Tepper as anti-gay based merely on her >description a "the gay sundrome" caused by a hormonal imbalance that was >fixed at birth. I don't recall the "gay syndrome" was a big part of the >book, but I read it a long time ago and may have forgotten. So we should give >Tepper a break here. It's always a mistake, I think, to hold an author personally responsible for what her characters say and do in a story. (It's frequently done, but it's neither fair nor honest.) Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:29:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA58476 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:59:10 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21232 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:00:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA41352; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:51:17 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 38378 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:51:15 -0500 Received: from gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil (firewall-user@[198.250.180.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA69730 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:40:43 -0500 Received: by gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil; id AA02980; Thu, 10 Apr 97 13:42:00 HST Received: from tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil(198.26.242.10) by gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil via smap (V3.1.1) id xma002869; Thu, 10 Apr 97 13:41:28 -1000 Forwarded-By: Daniel L Krashin Message-ID: <11194138@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:39:26 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: -Subject: Re: Tepper's feelings against homosexuality - ->Nomi I must say it depends greatly on individuals. I for one am ->uncomfortble with gays[ doesn't mean I'll go gay bashing], it's just the ->way I am but I'm fine with lesbians. [snip] ->Jay - - -Hahaha! Forgive me for posting off-topic, but I just couldn't let this one -slide. "People" aren't fine with homosexuality in the opposite sex - MEN -are ok with _women_ having sex with each other, and only because they -envision lesbian sex to be the type they see in straight guy pornography - -you know - lots of peach satin and long red nails and wishing "if only a -man would join us" kinda crap. [snip] - -Laura Hi, my name is Dan Krashin, I'm a psychiatry resident at an Army hospital in Hawaii and part-time sf writer. I guess I'd call myself an "ally" like Sam Delany. I wanted to make a couple comments on the subject. 1) "How I feel about homosexuality" is a very flame-prone issue. Let's try to be tolerant of each other's missteps. I personally have found it interesting to read the posts of so many SF readers who are either lesbian or woman-centric (i.e., preferentially reading books by female authors). The SF world seems very different from that perspective. 2)I think Jay has a point, at least his experience jibes with mine. (I would add that eventually one of my friends noticed this and pointed out, "If you get along with gay women but avoid gay men, you're still homophobic." And I have tried to get over this dumb prejudice.) But I have had some good lesbian friends -- it's sort of the ultimate platonic friendship... Ind I think some women feel this way, too. Think of "fag hags." (Not a PC term, I realize.) 3)Responding to Laura's post, I would point out that sexological research shows that almost *every* heterosexual male has a strong response to seeing two women together. This obviously has much to do with male appetites, and nothing much to do with lesbian women. But why so intolerant of a sexual fantasy? 4)To turn this post back on-topic, I remember a story from a couple years ago where the protagonist was a scientist who happened to be lesbian, who was investigating a prenatal treatment of babies that would prevent (among other things) homosexuality. The moral conflict in the story got kind of lost among a lot of corporate intrigue, as I recall, but it raised some interesting points. I don't think this kind of speculation is necessarily anti-homosexual. Maybe it was kind of a cheap shot in the context of _Gate_, though. Has anyone every read a story where they learn how to prevent heterosexuality? Thanks for your attention, Dan (This is what happens when my patients don't show up!) *I do not speak for the U.S. Government, nor do they for me, but we're stil great friends* From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:32:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA251392 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:18:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03274 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:21:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA39702; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:07:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 42903 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:07:03 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA40402 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:06:31 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Thu, 10 Apr 97 23:06:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > dear all: > > i'm looking for two books. two books that i've never read. > > i'm teaching a class where i'd like to use a comparable book to > _Frankenstein_ ... i'd like it to be both sci-fi and fem AND not > extraordinarily difficult (like, say, Le Guin's _Dispossessed_)(*gasp*)... > > > my theme (or, as we silly english teachers like to call it, "body of > discourse") is going to be called something along the lines of "Beauty and > the Beast" -- i think i'm going to use _Beowulf_ together with _Grendel_ > ... > > the second book i'm looking for is for a class on family... i'd like to, > again, use a sci-fi fem book that i haven't read before: one that has an > unusual family... i may be using _Fried Green Tomatoes_ and _Momaday_ and > _I am One of You Forever_ > > any ideas? > > thanks, > > -lissa bloomer How about Theodore Roszak's Memoirs of Elizabeth Frankenstein, which won the Tiptree last year, or would that one be too tough? Alternately, how about Marge Piercy's He, She, and It, which has an obvious Frankenstein parallel? Amy Thomson's Virtual Girl might also work, though it probably is out of print. Another possibility is Shariann Lewitt's Memento Mori, which just came out in trade paperback. For the family book, I'm very fond of the family in Slonczewski's Daughter of Elysium, although that's probably too difficult AND out of print. One very good family sf novel that just came out in trade paperback is Stephanie Smith's Other Nature. Most of the feminist f & sf books that I can think of that concentrate on families, specifically concentrate on bad families--child abuse issues and such--like Susan Palwick's Flying in Place. Mike Levy From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:33:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA69572 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:58:30 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04904 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:01:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA92846; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:49:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43506 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:49:03 -0500 Received: from emout28.mail.aol.com (emout28.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.133]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA70024 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:48:30 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout28.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA02642 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970410224552_-133829086@emout14.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:47:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Or, how about Jigsaw Woman by Kim Antieau? A definitely feminist take on the Frankenstein idea, with historical, specifically herstory, overtones. Barbara From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:36:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAB167186 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:43:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15941 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:45:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA30874; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:31:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4767 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:31:02 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA73486 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:29:43 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA09505 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.81] (hagedorn.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.81]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26555 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:29:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hagedors@mail.vt.edu References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:29:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: >> the second book i'm looking for is for a class on family... i'd like to, >> again, use a sci-fi fem book that i haven't read before: one that has an >> unusual family... i may be using _Fried Green Tomatoes_ and _Momaday_ and >> _I am One of You Forever_ >> >> any ideas? >> >For the family book, I'm very fond of the family in Slonczewski's >Daughter of Elysium, Joan Slonczewski's Door Into Ocean is also very provocative and might still be available. I also second the "nomination" of More than Human--VERY interesting treatment of a gestalt "family." Sue Hagedorn From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:36:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA176716 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:24:41 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17981 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:24:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA33010; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:15:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 5527 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:15:05 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA81618 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:13:12 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA22944 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:06:30 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970411081544.09378568@academic.truman.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: At 23:06 4/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > >> dear all: >> >> i'm looking for two books. two books that i've never read. >> >> i'm teaching a class where i'd like to use a comparable book to >> _Frankenstein_ ... i'd like it to be both sci-fi and fem AND not >> extraordinarily difficult (like, say, Le Guin's _Dispossessed_)(*gasp*)... >> >> >> my theme (or, as we silly english teachers like to call it, "body of >> discourse") is going to be called something along the lines of "Beauty and >> the Beast" -- i think i'm going to use _Beowulf_ together with _Grendel_ >> ... >> >> the second book i'm looking for is for a class on family... i'd like to, >> again, use a sci-fi fem book that i haven't read before: one that has an >> unusual family... i may be using _Fried Green Tomatoes_ and _Momaday_ and >> _I am One of You Forever_ >> >> any ideas? >> >> thanks, >> >> -lissa bloomer > > >How about Theodore Roszak's Memoirs of Elizabeth Frankenstein, which won >the Tiptree last year, or would that one be too tough? Alternately, how >about Marge Piercy's He, She, and It, which has an obvious Frankenstein >parallel? Amy Thomson's Virtual Girl might also work, though it probably >is out of print. Another possibility is Shariann Lewitt's Memento Mori, >which just came out in trade paperback. > >For the family book, I'm very fond of the family in Slonczewski's >Daughter of Elysium, although that's probably too difficult AND out of >print. One very good family sf novel that just came out in trade >paperback is Stephanie Smith's Other Nature. Most of the feminist f & sf >books that I can think of that concentrate on families, specifically >concentrate on bad families--child abuse issues and such--like Susan >Palwick's Flying in Place. > >Mike Levy > Another book that concentrates on families (bad, that is) -- _The Beginning Place_ by Ursula K. LeGuin. Very Jungian, but not at all difficult reading -- and it's IN PRINT! Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:36:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA185206 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:30:55 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18463 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:32:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28932; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:22:31 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 5700 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:22:29 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29160 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:22:23 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA07748; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:22:29 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id JAA06710; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:22:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Alternate family To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970410224552_-133829086@emout14.mail.aol.com> Status: O X-Status: I particularly liked the family in Vonda McIntyre's Starfarers, which I think would be very accessible to a general audience. Although it's the first of a trilogy I'm sure it could be read alone for a class. I thought it was a gentle handling of a poly-family which includes two men who are equally sexually and emotionally bonded with each other as they are with the woman in the family, and the woman who was in the family but has died. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I view it as something of a nightmare that the sodomites are so brazen." Bigot Jesse Helms From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:36:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAB136058 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:59:13 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20221 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:59:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA80746; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:51:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 6241 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:51:04 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA39506 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:49:39 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA03824; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:49:37 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id JAA08353; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:50:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Tepper, queers, and the responsibility of an author To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970410180809.2127e68e@academic.truman.edu> Status: RO X-Status: I want to respond both to the points about the homophobia in The Gate to Women's Country, and the question of an author's responsibility for the politics of their work generally. On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Martha Bartter wrote: > At 15:46 4/10/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I think it would be unfair to condem Tepper as anti-gay based merely on her > >description a "the gay sundrome" caused by a hormonal imbalance that was > >fixed at birth. I don't recall the "gay syndrome" was a big part of the > >book, but I read it a long time ago and may have forgotten. So we should give > >Tepper a break here. > > It's always a mistake, I think, to hold an author personally responsible > for what her characters say and do in a story. (It's frequently done, > but it's neither fair nor honest.) > > Martha Bartter First, I encourage anyone who's interested to actually look at the passage at issue in Gate, it's at p. 76 (of my Spectra edition). As I said before my two problems with it, in the context of the novel as a whole are (1) the passing and uncritical reference to a queer genocide, and (2) the way in which she sloppily mixes the issues of the sexual abuse of children with homosexuality, a classic form of homophobia. While the 'science' of this "gay syndrome" is flawed I won't go into that, it's only slight more flawed than the biology is destiny science of the book as a whole. I maintain that this passage, in context, is homophobic and irresponsible. That's not to say that Tepper understood the importance of what she was saying (but if she didn't she should have) or that she can't have grown in other work since then. I haven't read anything else of hers so I don't know. Imagine a passing reference to a selective breeding process which wiped out all people who are jewish or black. Imagine the reference suggested that this was necessary because that population was prone to violence or sex crimes. Imagine the author just dropped it in, the only character who makes reference to it does so in a way that suggests the positive evolution of the human race, in a book that as a whole suggests that selective breeding might not be such a bad thing, and NO character in the book ever says anything else about the issue. I would never suggest that a reader should ascribe the beliefs of any character in a piece of fiction to the author. But I do strongly believe that authors are responsible for the political messages contained in their works, read as a whole. If a book, taken as a whole, suggests a certain philosophy, supports a certain religion, advocates or treats favourably certain political beliefs, then the author is responsible for putting that message out into the public domain. This is part of what I love about science fiction, the way author's philosophies can be explored and discussed in imaginative ways. But an author, upon being criticized, cannot be shielded by simply saying "it's fiction." The very topic of this list, feminist scifi, suggests that we all understand the political importance of literature. solidarity, Robin Gordon ------------------------ "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:38:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA263228 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:54:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25283 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:53:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA94672; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:41:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7338 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:41:02 -0500 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA32874 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:39:44 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA12101 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970411103909_-1871290678@emout19.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:39:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: In regard to the various comments about whether or not cover artists who are illustrating books have actually *read* what they are illustrating: probably not. Illustrators are selected by a committee of editorial and managing editors, usually on the basis of their portfolio style, having been preselected by the publisher's design team or senior designer, usually via an art rep. It is the editors (who presumably *have* read the book) who give direction to the illustrator, though they sometimes select from already available material. If the illustrator had to read everything he/she illustrates, the illustration would never get done and he/she would never earn a living. Having worked from both directions (as writer and artist), I think I am pretty accurate about this. So--next time you wonder "what was that *illustrator* THINKING" think again! Ask instead, what editor thought THAT was a good selling point for this book? And, if you think it is hard to get your words published, try getting your images printed! (just a small divergence) Barbara From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:40:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14824 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:39:46 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06651 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:40:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA76418; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:11:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9635 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:11:06 -0500 Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA51012 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:00:06 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA08373 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970411115857_-1570170887@emout13.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:59:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: Octavia Butler To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hi, all. I'm brand new to the list, brand new to women's studies (just heard about Third Wave last week... USA Today doesn't report these things!?) so please bear with me. I joined up because I'm incurably into sf, and was dying to hear some feminist perspectives on what's been traditionally male-dominated (okay, that was a big "duh!", as in, what isn't, right?) Has anyone read "The Evening and the Morning and the Night," a short story by Octavia Butler? I'd be interested to hear people's impressions/interpretations of gender roles as they relate to characters with the disease at the Institute, and the "other" as people with the disease. (Sorry I don't have the anthology in front of me, or I'd name the disease... it's just this story's been on my mind since I saw all the posts about Octavia.) Hope Cascio From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:40:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA188660 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:26:03 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05266 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:26:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05284; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:03:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9685 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:03:02 -0500 Received: from odin.ax.com (odin.ax.com [199.184.188.9]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA50264 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:02:58 -0500 Received: from [199.184.188.101] (ppp100.ax.com [199.184.188.100]) by odin.ax.com (8.8.3/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id JAA25608; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:00:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Frankenstein book Comments: To: ebloomer@mail.vt.edu To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Lissa: It might be a little off what you're looking for, but Nancy Holder and Melanie Tem's _Making Love_ involves not only a created man as a partner to the protagonist, but her brother creating a family in the same manner. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:41:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA196164 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:46:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07435 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:47:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA51324; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:12:34 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9959 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:12:32 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA71786 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:11:04 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA24440 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970411121028_839041526@emout15.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: BEAUTY To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: I think retold fairy tales are fascinating, too. There's one, "Ever After," which I'm almost certain is by Nancy Kress, is a retelling of "Cinderella" with a vampire spin... that is, the fairy godmother is a vampire, and she turns the ingenue into one, too. Had some interesting things to say... vampires can't have their own children, so they take other people's: this is directly compared to the priesthood. A priest shows the protagonist (the fairy godmother) compassion, and in turn, she shows compassion for a woman who's pretty much spent her life trying to reveal the godmother for what she really is. Neat, evil little power plays, bittersweet. If anyone's read it, I'd love to hear what you have to say about it. Hope Cascio From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:41:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA248268 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:04:35 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09113 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:03:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA38054; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:39:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10859 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:39:09 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA30000 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:37:55 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA03483 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970411123701_-500754546@emout10.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:37:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-04-09 18:55:18 EDT, you write: << People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about something. >> I don't completely agree. I used to just read for pure pleasure and escapism, until I came to college and "learned how to interpret what I'm reading." At first it felt so artificial, but now I feel like I can get so much more out of something. I never could have attempted most poetry, for instance, before I learned to interpret, and now I can actually get something from Adrienne Rich. So it's a construct, but so's the literature. I can still read ocassionally for the escape, but I much prefer to read something I can think about later, like while I'm driving or doing the dishes. And I'll reread things I've enjoyed to see if there's more to it than the lovely escape. Hope Cascio From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:42:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA137850 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:26:05 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11096 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:24:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA39660; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:57:32 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11381 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:57:30 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA62364 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:57:22 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 97 12:57 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:57:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <970411123701_-500754546@emout10.mail.aol.com> Status: O X-Status: NH: This sounds pretty much like my trajectory too. I used to read to not have to think, just look at pretty pitures in my mind's eye, but I couldn't get away with that for long; the type of reading that I enjoy exercises the mind; it *makes* you think, and I enjoy it. -nalo On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Hope Cascio wrote: > In a message dated 97-04-09 18:55:18 EDT, you write: > > << People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy > Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about > something. >> > > I don't completely agree. I used to just read for pure pleasure and escapism, > until I came to college and "learned how to interpret what I'm reading." At > first it felt so artificial, but now I feel like I can get so much more out > of something. I never could have attempted most poetry, for instance, before > I learned to interpret, and now I can actually get something from Adrienne > Rich. So it's a construct, but so's the literature. I can still read > ocassionally for the escape, but I much prefer to read something I can think > about later, like while I'm driving or doing the dishes. And I'll reread > things I've enjoyed to see if there's more to it than the lovely escape. > > Hope Cascio > "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and come on over to the Mothership." P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:42:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA107224 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:42:10 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12325 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:37:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA34612; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:13:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11671 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:13:02 -0500 Received: from pilot17.cl.msu.edu (pilot17.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.27]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA88844 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:13:01 -0500 Received: from rj1.lib.msu.edu ([35.8.222.247]) by pilot17.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id NAA42497; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:12:59 -0400 Received: by rj1.lib.msu.edu with Microsoft Mail id <01BC467A.735165C0@rj1.lib.msu.edu>; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:15:39 -0400 Encoding: 39 TEXT Message-ID: <01BC467A.735165C0@rj1.lib.msu.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:15:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Re: Octavia Butler To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hope asked: >Has anyone read "The Evening and the Morning and the Night," a short >story by Octavia Butler? Oh my God, yes! I read it about three weeks ago -- had bronchitis, couldn't sleep because I was coughing too much, and had a 102 temperature so I probably wasn't thinking very clearly -- so I lay in bed half the night reading that whole "Bloodchild" anthology. Then I had horrible nightmares afterward!! (Is this an illustration of reader-response theory? --that the immediate circumstances you're in when you encounter a text shape the reading experience? ) >I'd be interested to hear people's >impressions/interpretations of gender roles as they relate to characters >with the disease at the Institute, and the "other" as people with the >disease. (Sorry I don't have the anthology in front of me, or I'd name the >disease... I think it was called Duryea-Gode Disease - DGD. The business about women with highest levels of the pheronome (those who had inherited the disease from both parents) being able to influence the behavior of those with lower levels (women who inherited the disease from only one parent, and all men, I think it was?) and yet not being able to tolerate the presence of one of the other high-pheronome women -- by the end of the story I was thinking of them as the Alpha Females. They seemed to be heading in the direction of creating female-led communities, which would eventually become economically self-sufficient because of the enhanced mental abilities of the members. It was really a chilling combination of utopia and dystopia, since the communities had to be created to protect the people suffering from a horribly grim disease. --Ruth Ann From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:44:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA163450 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:54:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19442 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:55:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA63332; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:31:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 13443 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:31:05 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA74564 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:29:27 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA27440 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970411142828_144551273@emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:28:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Apologies To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: My apologies to the person who either (a) sent me a personal email or (b) posted to this list something about a (my?) review of Butler's _PotS_. I deleted it instead of reading it. Sigh. So, whoever you are, will you send/post it again? Many thanks. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:45:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA240964 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:29:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22448 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:26:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA85144; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:57:24 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 14043 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:57:22 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA32876 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:56:30 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24340; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:38 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970411123701_-500754546@emout10.mail.aol.com> Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Hope Cascio wrote: > In a message dated 97-04-09 18:55:18 EDT, you write: > > << People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy > Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about > something. >> > > I don't completely agree. I used to just read for pure pleasure and escapism, > until I came to college and "learned how to interpret what I'm reading." At > first it felt so artificial, but now I feel like I can get so much more out > of something. I never could have attempted most poetry, for instance, before > I learned to interpret, and now I can actually get something from Adrienne > Rich. So it's a construct, but so's the literature. I can still read > ocassionally for the escape, but I much prefer to read something I can think > about later, like while I'm driving or doing the dishes. And I'll reread > things I've enjoyed to see if there's more to it than the lovely escape. For me, I see the change from non-critical to critical thinking to be a gradual one that sort of mirrors my evolutionary maturity. I think that when I was younger I had so little experience and my mind was so empty that I was ecstatic to fill it. I internalized what I read with an astounding level of naivete and trust. Now it seems like I have a respectable amount of stuff in my mind. So, simple ravenous internalization is not adequate. My body of experience, ideas, and values protects itself from being replaced. I still read to expand my thoughts, self-image, and body of experience (one reason I love sci-fi and books with main characters different than me e.g. a female protagonist) but in order to keep in some semblance of unity of thought and being and to keep from being cluttered, I must think longer and with more wariness than I once did. I see the process as an ongoing continuous one. I just hope that I never become anywhere close to "full". One thing I think I have also noticed is that I must always weigh everything with that same wariness, what I am reading and what I believe. So, reading can do another thing for me. It can help me to examine myself. When I read a book where "I" am a woman in a world populated completely by women that really sings to me and "fits," in order to internalize it I must in some ways reduce my self-image from a male to a human and I must somehow reduce my image of humanity from a bipolar, hetero-sexist one to a more gender-less one. (or do some other sort of hacking and/or rationalization) So, I read feminist science fiction for pleasure and in a sort of spiritual search for self-actualization and enlightenment (they are related). I do agree that often I don't think about why the author wrote what they did. I often don't consider it that important to what something means to me. To assume that all or even most meaning in a written work is completely intended by the author is put the author at super-human levels. I do greatly admire many authors (especially my favorites) but not that much. -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:47:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA269412 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:19:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27654 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:19:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA74542; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:07:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 15632 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:07:00 -0500 Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA74664 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:06:27 -0500 Received: from frogqueen.earthlink.net (Cust99.Max5.San-Francisco.CA.MS.UU.NET [153.35.235.227]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA29642 for ; Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334E932C.5A0D@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:38:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nomi Liron Organization: Bay Area Frog Kingdom/Royal Palace Subject: Re: Alternate family To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Robin Gordon wrote: > > I particularly liked the family in Vonda McIntyre's Starfarers, which I > think would be very accessible to a general audience. Although it's the > first of a trilogy I'm sure it could be read alone for a class. I thought > it was a gentle handling of a poly-family which includes two men who are > equally sexually and emotionally bonded with each other as they are with > the woman in the family, and the woman who was in the family but has died. > > Robin Gordon > > -------------------------------------- > "I view it as something of a nightmare > that the sodomites are so brazen." > Bigot Jesse HelmsRobin---This looks good. I'll look for it. Thanks for mentioning it! Nomi From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:57:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA101644 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:28:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05459 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:30:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA52376; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:03:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28099 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:03:03 -0500 Received: from mail1.dial-up.net (mail1.dial-up.net [196.26.208.33]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA47586 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:02:36 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a3-jhb-27.dial-up.net [196.26.216.27]) by mail1.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with SMTP id SAA22607 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:03:39 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <970411123701_-500754546@emout10.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334F0ACD.5B8@griffin.co.za> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 06:08:46 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Hope Cascio wrote: > > In a message dated 97-04-09 18:55:18 EDT, you write: > > << People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy > Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about > something. >> > > I don't completely agree. I used to just read for pure pleasure and escapism, > until I came to college and "learned how to interpret what I'm reading." At > first it felt so artificial, but now I feel like I can get so much more out > of something. I never could have attempted most poetry, for instance, before > I learned to interpret, and now I can actually get something from Adrienne > Rich. So it's a construct, but so's the literature. I can still read > ocassionally for the escape, but I much prefer to read something I can think > about later, like while I'm driving or doing the dishes. And I'll reread > things I've enjoyed to see if there's more to it than the lovely escape. > > Hope Cascio Actually I agree with you but for books that you do study but my main point was some people read to much into a book which wasn't intended. I mean with Tepper maybe just doesn't like homosexuality or maybe likes it. But how can one really read into something that is written that deeply.....the author will end up laughing at you. I might be wrong but that's my veiws. Jay From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:57:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA101660 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:28:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05402 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:28:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA51482; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:05:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28158 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:05:05 -0500 Received: from mail1.dial-up.net (mail1.dial-up.net [196.26.208.33]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA84528 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:04:24 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a3-jhb-27.dial-up.net [196.26.216.27]) by mail1.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with SMTP id SAA22657 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:05:29 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334F0B3C.5102@griffin.co.za> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 06:10:36 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > NH: This sounds pretty much like my trajectory too. I used to read to not > have to think, just look at pretty pitures in my mind's eye, but I > couldn't get away with that for long; the type of reading that I enjoy > exercises the mind; it *makes* you think, and I enjoy it. > > -nalo > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Hope Cascio wrote: > > > In a message dated 97-04-09 18:55:18 EDT, you write: > > > > << People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy > > Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about > > something. >> > > > > I don't completely agree. I used to just read for pure pleasure and escapism, > > until I came to college and "learned how to interpret what I'm reading." At > > first it felt so artificial, but now I feel like I can get so much more out > > of something. I never could have attempted most poetry, for instance, before > > I learned to interpret, and now I can actually get something from Adrienne > > Rich. So it's a construct, but so's the literature. I can still read > > ocassionally for the escape, but I much prefer to read something I can think > > about later, like while I'm driving or doing the dishes. And I'll reread > > things I've enjoyed to see if there's more to it than the lovely escape. > > > > Hope Cascio > > > > "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and > come on over to the Mothership." > P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" I also read for mental stimulation but the point is people read too much into something in a book. They don't take it at it's face value. Jay From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:57:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA101664 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:28:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05457 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:30:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA70156; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:11:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28211 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:11:06 -0500 Received: from mail1.dial-up.net (mail1.dial-up.net [196.26.208.33]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28952 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:09:31 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a3-jhb-27.dial-up.net [196.26.216.27]) by mail1.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with SMTP id SAA22756 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:10:37 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <334F0C70.345C@griffin.co.za> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 06:15:44 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Re: Reading "errors" for Joel To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Joel VanLaven wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Hope Cascio wrote: > > > In a message dated 97-04-09 18:55:18 EDT, you write: > > > > << People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy > > Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about > > something. >> > > > > I don't completely agree. I used to just read for pure pleasure and escapism, > > until I came to college and "learned how to interpret what I'm reading." At > > first it felt so artificial, but now I feel like I can get so much more out > > of something. I never could have attempted most poetry, for instance, before > > I learned to interpret, and now I can actually get something from Adrienne > > Rich. So it's a construct, but so's the literature. I can still read > > ocassionally for the escape, but I much prefer to read something I can think > > about later, like while I'm driving or doing the dishes. And I'll reread > > things I've enjoyed to see if there's more to it than the lovely escape. > > For me, I see the change from non-critical to critical thinking to be a > gradual one that sort of mirrors my evolutionary maturity. I think that > when I was younger I had so little experience and my mind was so empty > that I was ecstatic to fill it. I internalized what I read with an > astounding level of naivete and trust. Now it seems like I have a > respectable amount of stuff in my mind. So, simple ravenous > internalization is not adequate. My body of experience, ideas, and values > protects itself from being replaced. I still read to expand my thoughts, > self-image, and body of experience (one reason I love sci-fi and books > with main characters different than me e.g. a female protagonist) but in > order to keep in some semblance of unity of thought and being and to keep > from being cluttered, I must think longer and with more wariness than I > once did. I see the process as an ongoing continuous one. I just hope > that I never become anywhere close to "full". One thing I think I have > also noticed is that I must always weigh everything with that same > wariness, what I am reading and what I believe. So, reading can do > another thing for me. It can help me to examine myself. When I read a > book where "I" am a woman in a world populated completely by women that > really sings to me and "fits," in order to internalize it I must in some > ways reduce my self-image from a male to a human and I must somehow reduce > my image of humanity from a bipolar, hetero-sexist one to a more > gender-less one. (or do some other sort of hacking and/or rationalization) > > So, I read feminist science fiction for pleasure and in a sort of > spiritual search for self-actualization and enlightenment (they are > related). I do agree that often I don't think about why the author wrote > what they did. I often don't consider it that important to what something > means to me. To assume that all or even most meaning in a written work is > completely intended by the author is put the author at super-human levels. > I do greatly admire many authors (especially my favorites) but not that > much. > > -- Joel VanLaven I must say I like your anwser Joel. Interesting and well thought out but my statement was for the point that sometimes people just read too much into a book. So I'm saying think but don't go too deep as one then tends to go into a complete realm of speculation of which an author might not have intended. Jay From ???@??? Sat Apr 12 14:59:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA112478 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:50:22 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08134 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:51:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA65984; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:28:55 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 29940 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:28:53 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA60384 for ; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:27:11 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA23305 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970412132633_384697158@emout08.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:26:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: For an interesting take on this, read "Night Woman" by Nancy Price. Though not science fiction, or speculative fiction (depending on which appelation you prefer), it is certainly feminist and a great read. The protagonist of the story, out of necessity in order to support herself and her children, writes her husband's novels for him. He is completely insane, but believes he is doing the writing and that she is only "assisting" him. She is confronted on an almost daily basis with interpretations of "his" novels in relation to his mental disorder (which is a well-known fact). I don't want to tell the remainder of the plot, but suffice to say it is extremely interesting and strongly feminist, and can be read as a direct caution by a writer against over-interpretation. I also recommend, by the same author, "An Accomplished Woman." Barbara From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:46:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA177438 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:45:23 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19121 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:47:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA88560; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:36:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 44883 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:36:05 -0500 Received: from mail1.dial-up.net (mail1.dial-up.net [196.26.208.33]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA74918 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:35:06 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a3-jhb-45.dial-up.net [196.26.216.45]) by mail1.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with ESMTP id BAA27797 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:36:14 +0200 (GMT) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704132336.BAA27797@mail1.dial-up.net> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:41:17 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Re: Reading "errors" Fo Jo Ann rangel To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: ---------- > From: Jo Ann Rangel > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: Reading "errors" > Date: 13 April 1997 11:15 > > Hi, > > Yes while the reason for reading literature is overall to be entertained, and > to provide a means of mental escape(which since getting to university has > been a relief in trying times), some of us trying to make a go in academia > sometimes have to wear not only the pleasure reader hat, but also her > critical skills hat. I understand what you are saying though. Sometimes the > time constraints in academia make us forego the former hat in order to make > sure the latter hat is on tight and the analysis accomplished in said amount > of limited time. > > Jo Ann Rangel > (dreaming of her two week lull when she may read at leisure again!!!!!!) Wow I must say I'm really impressed with you. I must say I agree It is nice to read intellectually and for leasure. Buy the way I luved the metaphor about the hat. Jay From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:44:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA275068 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:33:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05904 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:35:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA43568; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:25:19 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 40227 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:25:17 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA79588 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:15:02 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:14:24 +0100 Received: from kmpc01 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id RAA03153; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:14:58 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:14:54 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: For me it is not so much reading not to think but what one thinks about. I do not find thinking about form terribly exciting, but if I didn't want to think about ideas, I certainly wouldn't read sf (hence after a hard day I am reading a romance). Farah Mendleson On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:57:52 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > NH: This sounds pretty much like my trajectory too. I used to read to not > have to think, just look at pretty pitures in my mind's eye, but I > couldn't get away with that for long; the type of reading that I enjoy > exercises the mind; it *makes* you think, and I enjoy it. > > -nalo > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Hope Cascio wrote: > > > In a message dated 97-04-09 18:55:18 EDT, you write: > > > > << People a book is to be enjoyed, have fun. When I read a book buy > > Margerat Weis I don't sit there thinking about why she wrote about > > something. >> > > > > I don't completely agree. I used to just read for pure pleasure and escapism, > > until I came to college and "learned how to interpret what I'm reading." At > > first it felt so artificial, but now I feel like I can get so much more out > > of something. I never could have attempted most poetry, for instance, before > > I learned to interpret, and now I can actually get something from Adrienne > > Rich. So it's a construct, but so's the literature. I can still read > > ocassionally for the escape, but I much prefer to read something I can think > > about later, like while I'm driving or doing the dishes. And I'll reread > > things I've enjoyed to see if there's more to it than the lovely escape. > > > > Hope Cascio > > > > "Starchild here. Put a glide in your stride, and a dip in your hip, and > come on over to the Mothership." > P-Funk, "Mothership Connection" From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:45:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA124886 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:53:30 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13936 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:55:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA39636; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:47:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43048 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:47:01 -0500 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA80776 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:46:56 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA16220 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413164610_-200649697@emout19.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:46:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: _Parable of the Sower_ To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi, Yes, I see your point about waiting for something bad to happen to Lauren and/or members of her following, and the tension I felt through this part of the novel till the end was not satisfying in this regard...guess the way to put it is she promised the reader through the way she set up the first part of the novel via the displays of violence in the streets outside of their neighborhood, to mean that sometime the protagonists and/or the minor characters would suffer some sort of hardship and perhaps lose their lives or come very close to it and this did not materialize. I am reading Butler's other works as background material for the work I will be doing with her Parable book, and I found Clay's Ark to contain more twists and turns so to speak than Parable of the Sower displayed. Jo Ann Rangel From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:45:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA89042 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:08:45 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14525 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:11:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA47364; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:57:37 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43161 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:57:35 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA64086 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:57:01 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA09751 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413165630_-200649686@emout15.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:56:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hi Timmi, Very well said. I just wanted to add that this is so far in my few days participating in this mail-list to have been very gratifying in the realm of provoking thought. And lately I must add my thoughts need to be throttled some mornings when the task of analysis lies before me...ONWARD!!! heh heh :) Jo Ann Rangel From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:45:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA232958 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:23:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14945 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:24:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA76862; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:12:35 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43414 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:12:33 -0500 Received: from emout25.mail.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.130]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA77558 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:12:15 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA02763 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:11:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413170825_1951711798@emout18.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:11:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_re:question To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi, As a professor in training...any suggestions for what type of literature courses Butler's works would be a good choice to explore? What came to mind immediately was perhaps a literature course dealing with gender issues, noting the way in Parable how the people in Lauren's immediate circle seem to hold to 1950ish values about society in such a time that displays the society to be so dystopian through deterioration that society. Any thoughts would be welcome Jo Ann Rangel From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:45:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA69394 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:23:40 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15013 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:26:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAB65888; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:17:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43482 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:17:00 -0500 Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA58952 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:16:03 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA18138 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413171531_973464766@emout01.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:15:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Reading "errors" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hi, Yes while the reason for reading literature is overall to be entertained, and to provide a means of mental escape(which since getting to university has been a relief in trying times), some of us trying to make a go in academia sometimes have to wear not only the pleasure reader hat, but also her critical skills hat. I understand what you are saying though. Sometimes the time constraints in academia make us forego the former hat in order to make sure the latter hat is on tight and the analysis accomplished in said amount of limited time. Jo Ann Rangel (dreaming of her two week lull when she may read at leisure again!!!!!!) From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:45:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA82294 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:58:46 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15977 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:58:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA83566; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:49:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43741 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:49:02 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA79580 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:48:34 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA14403 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413174748_-932768925@emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hi, A suggestion for your second class topic about family....immediately The Female Man by Joanna Russ came to mind due to the description of the society in the future dimension which if I had the book nearby it is in storage at the moment, I could tell you the details. Perhaps someone else can remember the character from the future who comes back to the Depression that never ended time of the United states? >From what I remember the woman from the future is the "father" of a family in one of the towns back home on her planet, and she has a wife and several children. Jo Ann Rangel From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:46:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA133394 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:05:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16259 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:07:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA87074; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:01:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43848 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:01:02 -0500 Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21452 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:00:18 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA21103 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970413175943_1354401391@emout12.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:59:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi, Jigsaw Woman would be a good Frankenstein counterpart in a moden context, but as much as the book entertained me, it does has some flaws structually from what I recall when I read it last year for pleasure. But for the subject as a companion to Frankenstein it would make a good selection. Jo Ann Rangel From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:47:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA125432 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:53:46 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23252 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:56:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA97352; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:46:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45766 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:46:04 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA97406 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:45:03 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA29146 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA19734 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:00:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_re:question To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Jo Ann Rangel wrote: >Hi, > >As a professor in training...any suggestions for what type of literature >courses Butler's works would be a good choice to explore? What came to mind >immediately was perhaps a literature course dealing with gender issues, >noting the way in Parable how the people in Lauren's immediate circle seem to >hold to 1950ish values about society in such a time that displays the society >to be so dystopian through deterioration that society. > >Any thoughts would be welcome > >Jo Ann Rangel aloha, jo ann. i have taught _Kindred_ a couple of times and had super super classes and papers on it. the story revolves around a young black woman in the 1970's who is pulled back into the time of slavery. there, she becomes a strange caregiver to her master's son... who, by the way of rape, is her great grandfather. the book opens the eyes to gender issues as well as the horrors of american history that so many young college students quickly dismiss as a thing of the past. butler, showing that this woman is intricately woven CONSTANTLY to her family's past, illustrates how we can't simply shirk history on the basis that "we weren't there" or "we didn't do it..." in the beginniig of the text, there's a very good critical essay by Robert Crossley... i think it's simply called "Introduction"... i've used this essay as a way to show students how one uses quoted material, how one can use a good annotated bibliography... plus, when i help the students begin to juggle 3 voices (their own, the text's, and a secondary source), i have the students use the Crossley essay and _Kindred_ as a nice introductory exercise. certainly NOT utopic... but Butler did call her book a "grim fantasy" -- rather than sci-fi... and Crossley wrote -- it's certainly NOT escapist. i'd love to know what you think if you read it and/or use it. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:47:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18800 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:15:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24016 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:17:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA94366; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:02:41 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45845 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:02:39 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA76390 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:01:33 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA01072 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA09951 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: hey all: a couple of years ago, one of my students (in my sci-fi class)(taught during summer school) blurted out, "why can't we just read this stuff for fun???!!!" i had to keep my cool, and restrain fantastical thoughts of a mac10convertedsemiautomaticmachinegun. i wanted to ask this person why the hell was she in college? instead, i'm happy to share, i tried to answer as best as possible... but i don't think i made a bit of difference, because, like several of you have written, it's a thing that takes time... maturity, interest, growing into the kind of critical lense one wishes to explore... what i did,as usual, was draw weird pictures on the blackboard. i drew the side cut of an island and suggested that when we read for fun, for entertainment only, we are only appreciating what is on the surface. (then, i dramatically drew the huge mass of land that triangulated out from the bottom of the island, under the little loopy waves.) i suggested that this island was built over layer and layer of super thoughts, sociohistorical implications, other texts, ideas, ideas, ideas. if we want to achieve a deep reading, we must dig or dive. hanging out on the island is great for a tan and the air and the nice breeze and the balmy whisper of the little palm tree (that is also drawn there in "little princian style").. but after a while, i'd imagine it'd get pretty darn boring. plus, there's that awful possibility of a wicked sunburn. ciao, lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:49:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28426 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:09:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16847 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:10:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24116; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:01:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 48747 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:01:08 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA95778 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:59:05 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id IAA16209 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:52:24 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970414090148.36c72fd8@academic.truman.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:01:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Octavia Butler:_Parable of the Sower_re:question To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <970413170825_1951711798@emout18.mail.aol.com> Status: O X-Status: At 17:11 4/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi, > >As a professor in training...any suggestions for what type of literature >courses Butler's works would be a good choice to explore? What came to mind >immediately was perhaps a literature course dealing with gender issues, >noting the way in Parable how the people in Lauren's immediate circle seem to >hold to 1950ish values about society in such a time that displays the society >to be so dystopian through deterioration that society. > >Any thoughts would be welcome > >Jo Ann Rangel > I used _Kindred_ to start off a "Survey of American Literature II" class... that's kind of post-Whitman to now in chronology. Went from _Kindred_ to _Huckleberry Finn_ -- the students enjoyed the introduction, and used it a lot to center all the Civil and Post-Civil war stuff. You don't have to create a "special" area for Butler, at least not that book. Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:53:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA194030 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:10:42 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19063 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24570; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:43:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 57028 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:43:01 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA44002 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:42:28 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id OAA15455; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:42:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:42:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970413174748_-932768925@emout05.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jo-Ann, The name of the character is Janet, her wife is Vittoria, and Janet has absolutely no conception of "fatherhood" or indeed gender roles (until she visited Jeannine's depression era world, and Joanna's world which is roughly cognate with our own). Needless to say Janet gets a rude education! Also interesting from a family point of view is Jeannine's family, who can conceptualise J. only in terms of her male relationships.After all, Jeannine (if married) might one day get a kitchenette of her own. Russ gives a very biting, satirical analysis of "family values" while providing new models (still in the two parent mode through). Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time also reconceptualises ideas of the "family" by making reproduction technological. What do people think of Russ's conceptualisation of female subjectivity? One writer (Marilyn somebody, in her very good preface to the FM) suggested that the 4 J's together would constitute one unified female subject- an ideal which current conditions make impossible. Other critics see Russ as completely debunking any idea of stable subjectivity, utopian or otherwise. On the other hand, Russ's oxymoronic project to become a "female man" seems to reach towards females becoming human, suggesting (of course) that they are not human so far but also suggesting that humanity is something stable to be reached for. I find this book very hard to pin down (and hence extremely interesting). Tanya. From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:53:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA41180 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:07:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24847 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:04:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA82168; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:31:21 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 58300 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:31:18 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24274 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:29:53 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 14 Apr 97 14:29:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: I taught The Female Man last semester in a course on science fiction and gender. Also did books or stories by LeGuin, Slonczewski, Bujold, Charnas, Arnason, Tiptree, Heinlein, Piercy, Griffith, C.L.Moore, McCaffrey, Delany, etc. Of all the stories we read, The Female Man was clearly the least successful, at least in terms of class participation. Most of the students hated it and/or were totally confused by it. In part this was simply because the novel is complex and hard to follow, but many felt that it was dated, that too many of its literary and historical allusions were obscure because they were so clearly tied to the 60s and 70s. I'd be interested to hear from others who have taught this book. Did you have a similar experience? Did you find successful avenues into the text? It might be worth mentioning that in a poll conducted at the end of the class the most popular stories were 1) McCaffrey's "The Ship Who Sang," 2) Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time, 3) Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, 4 LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness, and 5) Griffith's Ammonite tied with Bujold's Ethan of Athos. The McCaffrey and Heinlein stories, of course, were in there to show old-fashioned, sexist attitudes. Surprise! The least popular stories were 1)The Female Man, 2)Tiptree's "The Women Men Don't See," 3) Slonczewski's Door into Ocean, and 4) Arnason's Warlord of Saturn's Moons. The class, by the way, was about 1/2 women's studies majors and 75% female. Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:55:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22698 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:50:15 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06465 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:47:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA41500; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:25:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 61555 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:25:24 -0500 Received: from odin.ax.com (odin.ax.com [199.184.188.9]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA89066 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:23:55 -0500 Received: from [199.184.188.105] (ppp101.ax.com [199.184.188.101]) by odin.ax.com (8.8.3/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id OAA07288 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:22:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: The Female Man -- ranked low To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Can I be depressed now? Reminds me of my best friend in college who quit her WS class because she felt "attacked." > >The class, by the way, was about 1/2 women's studies majors and 75% >female. How far into the future will we need to go to loose our awareness and absorbtion of "traditional" M/F roles? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:55:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA287434 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:03:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08248 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:04:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21454; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:45:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 61976 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:45:05 -0500 Received: from emout26.mail.aol.com (emout26.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.131]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA74516 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:44:34 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout26.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA20208 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970414173726_-401870457@emout09.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:44:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: "Cocoon" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: I know I must have read this one: remind me of the plot of Greg Egan's "Cocoon"? Hope From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:56:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA93674 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:29:15 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10250 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:29:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA65712; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:15:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 62817 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:15:04 -0500 Received: from emout30.mail.aol.com (emout30.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.135]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24364 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:14:09 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout30.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA21483 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970414173944_1055964043@emout10.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:13:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: Frankenstein book To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Lissa, There's a really interesting family in "Geek Love" by Katherine Dunn. Not strictly sf, more like fantasy. About a carnival family that breeds its own sideshow freaks. The family dynamics, politics, expressions of religion and familial duty, are all incredibly interesting. Hope From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:58:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA137908 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:38:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05464 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:40:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA63078; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:31:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2745 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:31:08 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA87860 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:29:13 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:25:26 +0100 Received: from kmpc12 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) for id JAA07980; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:25:59 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:25:56 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Russ (fwd) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Forwarded Message: From: Andrew M. Butler Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:05:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Russ To: fm7@york.ac.uk Hi, This came out of a conversation at the first 1.5 session. Below find fifty out of 210 articles & reviews that at least cite Russ in them - some will obviously be of relevance to sf, others presumably cite her in passing (presumably, How to Suppress, To Write Like or On Strike). I can send the remaining in batches or a whole lot - the contents of the bibliographies of these articles would allow you to track down which will be the most relevant, and this can be supplied, although likely to be a large file. Cheers Andy Andrew M. Butler "We are on the brink of a new era, if only-" English Department, Hull University, Hull, UK Voice: 01482 465644 in UK AFFN, BSFA, Renaissance Forum etc. http://www.hull.ac.uk/Hull/EL_Web/amb/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:30:06 +0100 From: ihullib@alpha1.bids.ac.uk To: a.m.butler%english.hull.ac.uk@bids.ac.uk Copyright 1997, Institute for Scientific Information Inc. Database: Arts & Humanities Citation Index (1) TI: RELATIONS OF LITERATURE AND SCIENCE - A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF SCHOLARSHIP, 1978-79 AU: SCHATZBERG_W JN: CLIO-A JOURNAL OF LITERATURE HISTORY AND THE PHILOSOPHY OF HISTORY, 1980, Vol.10, No.1, pp.57-84 (2) TI: FRENCH STRUCTURALISM TODAY AU: TROFIMOVA_RP JN: VOPROSY FILOSOFII, Vol.1981, No.7, pp.144-151 (3) TI: 'MRS DALLOWAY' AS LYRICAL PARADOX AU: FRYE_JS JN: BALL STATE UNIVERSITY FORUM, 1982, Vol.23, No.1, pp.42-56 (4) TI: 'WHY MARRY' - THE NEW-WOMAN OF 1918 (ANALYSIS OF FEMALE PROTAGONIST IN WILLIAMS,JESSE,LYNCH PLAY) AU: STEPHENS_JL JN: THEATRE JOURNAL, 1982, Vol.34, No.2, pp.183-196 (5) TI: PRIMITIVISM IN FEMINIST UTOPIAS AU: KUMAR_K JN: ALTERNATIVE FUTURES, 1981, Vol.4, No.2-3, pp.61-66 (6) TI: FEMALE WITS AU: TOTH_E JN: MASSACHUSETTS REVIEW, 1981, Vol.22, No.4, pp.783-793 (7) TI: CLASS, RACE, SEX, SCIENTIFIC OBJECTS OF KNOWLEDGE - A MARXIST- FEMINIST PERSPECTIVE ON THE SOCIAL CONSTRUCTION OF PRODUCTIVE NATURE AND SOME POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES AU: HARAWAY_DJ JN: ARGUMENT, 1982, Vol.24, No.MAR-, pp.200-213 (8) TI: OUT OF THE ARCHIVES AND INTO THE ACADEMY - OPPORTUNITIES FOR RESEARCH AND PUBLICATION IN LESBIAN LITERATURE AU: KEENER_KM JN: COLLEGE ENGLISH, 1982, Vol.44, No.3, pp.301-313 (9) TI: CROSS-GENDER SIGNIFICANCE OF THE JOURNEY MOTIF IN SELECTED AFRO-AMERICAN FICTION AU: NAYLOR_CA JN: COLBY LIBRARY QUARTERLY, 1982, Vol.18, No.1, pp.26-38 (10) TI: WOMEN IN SCIENCE-FICTION - AN ANNOTATED SECONDARY BIBLIOGRAPHY AU: JONES_AH JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1982, Vol.23, No.1, pp.83-90 (11) TI: WHEN WOMEN RULE - DEFAMILIARIZATION IN THE SEX-ROLE REVERSAL UTOPIA (FICTIONAL LITERATURE) AU: PATAI_D JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1982, Vol.23, No.1, pp.56-69 (12) TI: BUTLER,OCTAVIA BLACK FEMALE FUTURE FICTION AU: FOSTER_FS JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1982, Vol.23, No.1, pp.37-49 (13) TI: A 'FEMALE MAN', THE MEDUSAN HUMOR OF RUSS,JOANNA AU: ROSINSKY_NM JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1982, Vol.23, No.1, pp.31-36 (14) TI: SCIENCE-FICTION AND THE SEX WAR - A WOMB OF ONES OWN AU: SPECTOR_JA JN: LITERATURE AND PSYCHOLOGY, 1981, Vol.31, No.1, pp.21-32 (15) TI: SCIENCE-FICTION - THE URGENCY OF STYLE AU: LAW_R JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1981, Vol.22, No.4, pp.325-333 (16) TI: THE DEFEAT OF A HERO - AUTONOMY AND SEXUALITY IN 'MY ANTONIA' (CATHER,WILLA) AU: LAMBERT_DG JN: AMERICAN LITERATURE, 1982, Vol.53, No.4, pp.676-690 (17) TI: ON FEMALE IDENTITY AND WRITING BY WOMEN (THE IMAGE OF THE FEMININE IDENTITY IN LITERATURE) AU: GARDINER_JK JN: CRITICAL INQUIRY, 1981, Vol.8, No.2, pp.347-361 (18) TI: THE BLANK PAGE AND THE ISSUES OF FEMALE CREATIVITY AU: GUBAR_S JN: CRITICAL INQUIRY, 1981, Vol.8, No.2, pp.243-263 (19) TI: FEMINIST UTOPIAS, A LITERATURE SURVEY AU: ANDERSON_E JN: SINN UND FORM, 1982, Vol.34, No.2, pp.443-455 (20) TI: WOMEN IN SCIENCE-FICTION AU: BAINBRIDGE_WS JN: SEX ROLES, 1982, Vol.8, No.10, pp.1081-1093 (21) TI: WOMAN AS ARTIST - THE FICTION OF LAVIN,MARY (WRITERS OF FICTION) AU: MESZAROS_PK JN: CRITIQUE-STUDIES IN MODERN FICTION, 1982, Vol.24, No.1, pp.39- 54 (22) TI: ON FEMINIST UTOPIAS AU: MELLOR_AK JN: WOMENS STUDIES-AN INTERDISCIPLINARY JOURNAL, 1982, Vol.9, No.3, pp.241-262 (23) TI: WORLD VIEWS IN UTOPIAN NOVELS BY WOMEN AU: FREIBERT_LM JN: JOURNAL OF POPULAR CULTURE, 1983, Vol.17, No.1, pp.49-60 (24) TI: SCIENCE-FICTION AND FANTASY AU: WYTENBROEK_J JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1982, Vol.23, No.4, pp.321-332 (25) TI: PONIATOWSKA,ELENA 'HASTA NO VERTE JESUS MIO' - THE REMAKING OF THE IMAGE OF WOMAN AU: HANCOCK_J JN: HISPANIA-A JOURNAL DEVOTED TO THE TEACHING OF SPANISH AND PORTUGUESE, 1983, Vol.66, No.3, pp.353-359 (26) TI: SPECULATIVE PORN - AESTHETIC FORM IN DELANY,SAMUEL,R. THE 'TIDES OF LUST' AU: RENAULT_G JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1983, Vol.24, No.2, pp.116-129 (27) TI: THE BATTLE OF THE BOOKS, THE BATTLE OF THE SEXES, WOOLF,VIRGINIA VITA-NUOVA AU: GILBERT_SM JN: MICHIGAN QUARTERLY REVIEW, 1984, Vol.23, No.2, pp.171-195 (28) TI: THE IDEAL WOMAN IN 2 FEMINIST SCIENCE-FICTION UTOPIAS AU: MILLER_M JN: SCIENCE-FICTION STUDIES, 1983, Vol.10, No.JUL, pp.191-198 (29) TI: THE FEMINIST CRITIQUE - MASTERING OUR MONSTROSITY AU: BENSTOCK_S JN: TULSA STUDIES IN WOMENS LITERATURE, 1983, Vol.2, No.2, pp.137- 149 (30) TI: TOWARDS AN OPEN-ENDED UTOPIA (SCIENCE-FICTION) AU: SOMAY_B JN: SCIENCE-FICTION STUDIES, 1984, Vol.11, No.MAR, pp.25-38 (31) TI: DR-JEKYLL AND MRS-HYDE, GENDER-RELATED CONFLICT IN THE SCIENCE- FICTION OF RUSS,JOANNA AU: SPECTOR_JA JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1983, Vol.24, No.4, pp.370-379 (32) TI: HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMENS WRITING - RUSS,J AU: GARRIGAN_KO JN: MODERN FICTION STUDIES, 1984, Vol.30, No.2, pp.373-376 (33) TI: TEXTUALITY SEXUALITY AU: BASSNETT_S JN: ESSAYS IN POETICS, 1984, Vol.9, No.1, pp.1-15 (34) TI: RUSS,JOANNA AND THE LITERATURE OF EXHAUSTION AU: LAW_R JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1984, Vol.25, No.2, pp.146-156 (35) TI: DAME UNISE, FEMINIST MAIDEN WHO FARES WELL WITH THE PATRIARCHY - SALMONSON,JESSICA,AMANDA THE PRODIGAL DAUGHTER AND THE EMERGING TRADITION IN FEMINIST SPECULATIVE FICTION AU: BARR_MS JN: WOMENS STUDIES INTERNATIONAL FORUM, 1984, Vol.7, No.2, pp.111- 115 (36) TI: SPECIAL ISSUE - OH WELL, ORWELL - BIG SISTER IS WATCHING HERSELF - FEMINIST SCIENCE-FICTION IN 1984 AU: BARR_MS JN: WOMENS STUDIES INTERNATIONAL FORUM, 1984, Vol.7, No.2, pp.83-84 (37) TI: AN BUTLER,OCTAVIA,E. BIBLIOGRAPHY AU: WEIXLMANN_J JN: BLACK AMERICAN LITERATURE FORUM, 1984, Vol.18, No.2, pp.88-89 (38) TI: TYPES OF WOMEN RELIGIOUS LEADERS AU: HUTCH_RA JN: RELIGION, 1984, Vol.14, No.2, pp.155-173 (39) TI: DALMADIGO,ELIYAHU 'BEHINAT HA-DAT' - HEBREW - RUSS,J JN: ZION-A QUARTERLY FOR RESEARCH IN JEWISH HISTORY, 1984, Vol.49, No.4, p.453 (40) TI: RUMOURS FROM THE CAULDRON - COMPETITION AMONG FEMINIST WRITERS AU: MINER_V JN: WOMENS STUDIES INTERNATIONAL FORUM, 1985, Vol.8, No.1, pp.45-50 (41) TI: THE 2ND DESTRUCTION OF PLATH,SYLVIA AU: AXELROD_SG JN: AMERICAN POETRY REVIEW, 1985, Vol.14, No.2, pp.17-18 (42) TI: THE INFLUENCE OF SCIENCE-FICTION IN THE CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN NOVEL AU: MATHIESON_K JN: SCIENCE-FICTION STUDIES, 1985, Vol.12, No.MAR, pp.22-32 (43) TI: STILL PRACTICE, A WRESTED ALPHABET - TOWARD A FEMINIST AESTHETIC AU: MARCUS_J JN: TULSA STUDIES IN WOMENS LITERATURE, 1984, Vol.3, No.1-2, pp.79- 97 (44) TI: A MANIFESTO FOR CYBORGS - SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, AND SOCIALIST FEMINISM IN THE 1980S AU: HARAWAY_D JN: SOCIALIST REVIEW, 1985, No.80, pp.65-107 (45) TI: HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMENS WRITING - RUSS,J AU: HOWARD_J JN: MINNESOTA REVIEW, 1984, No.23, pp.203-208 (46) TI: ANATOMY OF DIFFERENCE - TOWARD A CLASSIFICATION OF FEMINIST THEORY AU: MCFADDEN_M JN: WOMENS STUDIES INTERNATIONAL FORUM, 1984, Vol.7, No.6, pp.495- 504 (47) TI: THE YEARS SCHOLARSHIP IN SCIENCE-FICTION, FANTASY, AND HORROR LITERATURE - 1983 AU: TYMN_MB JN: EXTRAPOLATION, 1985, Vol.26, No.2, pp.85-142 (48) TI: THE MIRROR AND THE SHADOW - PLATH POETICS OF SELF-DOUBT AU: AXELROD_SG JN: CONTEMPORARY LITERATURE, 1985, Vol.26, No.3, pp.286-301 (49) TI: TRUE STORIES - WOMENS WRITING IN SCIENCE-FICTION AU: MADDERN_P JN: MEANJIN, 1985, Vol.44, No.1, pp.110-123 (50) TI: THE GREAT BRAIN ROBBERY - CANADAS UNIVERSITIES ON THE ROAD TO RUIN - BERCUSON,DJ, BOTHWELL,R, GRANATSTEIN,JL AU: PIERSON_RR JN: JOURNAL OF CANADIAN STUDIES-REVUE D ETUDES CANADIENNES, 1985, Vol.20, No.1, pp.154-161 From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:58:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA91248 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:53:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05641 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:54:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA16918; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:47:37 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2811 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:47:36 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA34218 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:47:22 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:43:56 +0100 Received: from kmpc12 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id JAA09377; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:44:31 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:44:28 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:16:58 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > > a couple of years ago, one of my students (in my sci-fi class)(taught > during summer school) blurted out, "why can't we just read this stuff for > fun???!!!" > > i had to keep my cool, and restrain fantastical thoughts of a > mac10convertedsemiautomaticmachinegun. > > i wanted to ask this person why the hell was she in college? I am going to be very rude.....What appalling arrogance! Whilst I understand that critical analysis can be interesting and beneficial, most *good* fiction was written to be *fun* (using a very broad definition of that word) to read. One of the reasons I have little tolerance for much critical work in sf (I am a history lecturer) is the priviliging of boring but intellectually complex texts over fascinating and fun but not terribly well written ones. (This seriously skews sf syallabi away from any fan consensus of the *best*). I have heard English literature professors suggesting that critics should concetrate on the texts they do not like, rather than the one's that they do, and outside of sf, the most common assumption thrown at sf is that it cannot be good because it *is* fun. The starting point of all critical thought is usually either enjoyment or hostility. If we do not want to mistake cynicism for critical ability the more we stress the *fun* side of the material we read the better. I feel very strongly that the best entry into material is to enjoy it. Whilst I accept the latter part of lissa's argument that there are depths beyond fun worth plumbing, I still retain more sympathy for the student than for lissa. Reading should be fun. Farah. From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:58:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA77354 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:23:42 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06271 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:25:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA24274; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:12:52 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2895 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:12:51 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA17070 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:11:11 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:07:39 +0100 Received: from kmpc12 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id KAA11143; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:08:10 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:08:05 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:29:48 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > I taught The Female Man last semester in a course on science fiction and > gender. Also did books or stories by LeGuin, Slonczewski, Bujold, Charnas, > Arnason, Tiptree, Heinlein, Piercy, Griffith, C.L.Moore, McCaffrey, Delany, > etc. > > Of all the stories we read, The Female Man was clearly the least > successful, at least in terms of class participation. Most of the > students hated it and/or were totally confused by it. In part this was > simply because the novel is complex and hard to follow, but many felt > that it was dated, that too many of its literary and historical allusions > were obscure because they were so clearly tied to the 60s and 70s. > > I'd be interested to hear from others who have taught this book. Did you > have a similar experience? Did you find successful avenues into the text? Yes, but keep trying. each time I teach it I receive different reactions and there is always at least one person who is so overwhelmed by it that it makes up for the other hostility. > > It might be worth mentioning that in a poll conducted at the end of the > class the most popular stories were 1) McCaffrey's "The Ship Who Sang," > 2) Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time, 3) Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh > Mistress, 4 LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness, and 5) Griffith's > Ammonite tied with Bujold's Ethan of Athos. The McCaffrey and Heinlein > stories, of course, were in there to show old-fashioned, sexist attitudes. > Surprise! Are you attempting any sort of historicity? If so, Heinlein's Beyond this Horizon or The Menace From Earth still manages to be a lot less sexist that McCaffery and truly radical for its period. Give Heinlein a fair chance! And try Tiptree's The Screwfly Solution or Houston Houston Do You Read. Farah. > From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 09:58:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA269850 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:23:24 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06250 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:24:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA24266; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:12:48 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2887 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:12:46 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA88050 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:11:16 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:09:18 +0100 Received: from kmpc12 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) for id KAA11214; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:09:52 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:09:50 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: There is a Mike Levey also on the SFRA list -- are you the same one and am I about to embark on the same discussion on Heinlein with you on this list as I am on the other? All teh best Farah Mendlesohn. From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 10:59:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA238058 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:34:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18718 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:34:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18054; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:15:13 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 6654 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:15:12 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA65616 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:13:28 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 97 09:13:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:13:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:16:58 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > > > > a couple of years ago, one of my students (in my sci-fi class)(taught > > during summer school) blurted out, "why can't we just read this stuff for > > fun???!!!" > > > > i had to keep my cool, and restrain fantastical thoughts of a > > mac10convertedsemiautomaticmachinegun. > > > > i wanted to ask this person why the hell was she in college? > > > > I am going to be very rude.....What appalling arrogance! Whilst I understand that > critical analysis can be interesting and beneficial, most *good* fiction was written > to be *fun* (using a very broad definition of that word) to read. One of the reasons I > have little tolerance for much critical work in sf (I am a history lecturer) is the > priviliging of boring but intellectually complex texts over fascinating and fun but not > terribly well written ones. (This seriously skews sf syallabi away from any fan > consensus of the *best*). I have heard English literature professors suggesting > that critics should concetrate on the texts they do not like, rather than the one's that > they do, and outside of sf, the most common assumption thrown at sf is that it > cannot be good because it *is* fun. > > > The starting point of all critical thought is usually either enjoyment or hostility. If we > do not want to mistake cynicism for critical ability the more we stress the *fun* side > of the material we read the better. I feel very strongly that the best entry into > material is to enjoy it. Whilst I accept the latter part of lissa's argument that there > are depths beyond fun worth plumbing, I still retain more sympathy for the student > than for lissa. Reading should be fun. > > > Farah. > I don't believe that Lissa ever said that reading shouldn't be fun, or that fun wasn't important in reading, did she? Essentially, as I interpreted her e-mail (not to put words in her mouth), she just said that you should think about and understand what you read. For most educated people this adds to the fun. I've been an academic most of my adult life and I've published hundreds of articles, book reviews, and other pieces of non-fiction. With the exception of a dozen or so reviews of books that I was assigned by various editors, however, I don't think I've ever published anything about a book I didn't like.(I take that back--I did once write a nasty piece about John Norman). Writing, even academic writing, is not only time consuming but involves an enormous emotional commitment to the texts you're working on. Forcing yourself to devote hours to a book, story, or poem you dislike would be sheer hell. In fact book reviewers are much more likely to write negatively about texts than academics are. Most academic writing assumes the quality of the text being discussed. If the scholar didn't think the story was good s/he generally wouldn't have devoted any time to it. My assumption concerning the academics who you mention as "privileging boring but intellectually complex texts" is that you find those texts boring but that the academics involved did not. I'm sure that the students in my SF and gender class thought I was "privileging boring but intellectually complex texts" when I assigned The Female Man and The Door into Ocean, two books I love, when they'd rather have been reading easier stories. Whoever that professor was who you heard recommend to people that they should write about works that they don't like, s/he was an idiot (on this one topic, at least) and certainly doesn't represent the normal run of academics, scholars, and critics. Mike Levy From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 10:59:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA150508 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:56:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20695 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:53:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA51136; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:35:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7094 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:35:02 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA96696 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:33:59 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 97 09:33:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:33:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:29:48 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > > > I taught The Female Man last semester in a course on science fiction and > > gender. Also did books or stories by LeGuin, Slonczewski, Bujold, Charnas, > > Arnason, Tiptree, Heinlein, Piercy, Griffith, C.L.Moore, McCaffrey, Delany, > > etc. > > > > Of all the stories we read, The Female Man was clearly the least > > successful, at least in terms of class participation. Most of the > > students hated it and/or were totally confused by it. In part this was > > simply because the novel is complex and hard to follow, but many felt > > that it was dated, that too many of its literary and historical allusions > > were obscure because they were so clearly tied to the 60s and 70s. > > > > I'd be interested to hear from others who have taught this book. Did you > > have a similar experience? Did you find successful avenues into the text? > > > Are you attempting any sort of historicity? If so, Heinlein's Beyond this Horizon or > The Menace From Earth still manages to be a lot less sexist that McCaffery and > truly radical for its period. Give Heinlein a fair chance! And try Tiptree's The > Screwfly Solution or Houston Houston Do You Read. > > Farah. Yes, the course was historically based. I used the Moon is a Harsh Mistress intentionally because I wanted something to contrast with the other, clearly feminist works we were using. I also discussed Heinlein's odd, but very real "proto-feminism" (or whatever you want to call it). I think that the bunch of students I was teaching would have hated "Houston Houston" in part for the same reasons that they hated The Female Man. They may have been initially impressed by the quality of Tiptree's writing, but, due to the ending and an unwillingness to think too deeply about what they read (a glancing reference here to another thread going on elsewhere on this list!), they would probably have seen the story naively as nothing more as an anti-male diatribe. Mike From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 10:59:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA98898 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:59:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21429 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:00:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA50870; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:41:20 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7320 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:41:17 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA45002 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:39:50 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 97 09:39:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:39:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > There is a Mike Levey also on the SFRA list -- are you the same one and am I about > to embark on the same discussion on Heinlein with you on this list as I am on the > other? > > All teh best > > Farah Mendlesohn. > Yep, I'm the same Mike Levy (only one e). I'm ubiquitous. If we start having similar conversations on two different lists though this could get very confusing, both for us and for the people who are only on one of the two lists! Martha Bartter may be the only one who can figure out what we're talking about!. Oddly enough, however, there is another Michael Levy who is active both on the internet and in science fiction. He runs a Jack Vance homepage and people keep getting us confused. Mike From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 12:17:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA92838 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:16:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29887 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:17:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA48548; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:56:32 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 8734 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:56:30 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA46218 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:55:41 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA03220 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.81] (hagedorn.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.81]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13047 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:55:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hagedors@mail.vt.edu References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:55:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: >> > a couple of years ago, one of my students (in my sci-fi class)(taught >> > during summer school) blurted out, "why can't we just read this stuff for >> > fun???!!!" Shouldn't the fun reading be the FIRST reading--and then you can show them the fun has only started! For most educated >people this adds to the fun. Exactly. >Forcing yourself to devote hours to a book, story, or poem you dislike would >be sheer hell. Most of us do it only once and then remember the painful process. I'm sure that the students in my SF and >gender class thought I was "privileging boring but intellectually >complex texts" when I assigned The Female Man and The Door into Ocean, >two books I love, when they'd rather have been reading easier stories. What exactly did they object to in Door Into Ocean? I would love to teach it, but I've had a bad experience before--I taught More Than Human, and the students were universally thumbs down--I haven't yet figured out if it was because it was too dated, not interesting to them, or if my presentation fell flat. > >Whoever that professor was who you heard recommend to people that they >should write about works that they don't like, s/he was an idiot (on this >one topic, at least) and certainly doesn't represent the normal run of >academics, scholars, and critics. Usually those who make such pronouncements are the ones who "talk a good game" but rarely publish--and rarely put out publishable work. > > i wanted to ask this person why the hell was she in college? Most of us in academia would like students to leave the class with more than they came in with. A critical/analytical view can serve them well throughout their lives. They ARE in college, not a reading circle. They can have fun while they're learning (I don't know any good teacher who wouldn't rather have fun with the class)--but it does take work--and so there will always be some grumbles! Until students learn that expanding their minds CAN be fun, I also wonder what they're doing in college other than marking time--or avoiding the world of work. Let's hope the revelation hits them soon so that the time in higher education isn't mostly wasted. Sue Hagedorn hagedors@vt.edu From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 12:17:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA75220 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:52:10 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03666 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:52:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA92010; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:35:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9525 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:35:08 -0500 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (mail.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.51]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA95912 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:33:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA21872 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:33:04 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:33:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > What do people think of Russ's conceptualisation of female subjectivity? > One > writer (Marilyn somebody, in her very good preface to the FM) suggested > that the 4 J's together would constitute one unified > female subject- an ideal which current conditions make impossible. Other > critics see Russ as completely debunking any idea of stable subjectivity, > utopian or otherwise. > On the other hand, Russ's oxymoronic project to become a "female man" > seems to reach towards females becoming human, suggesting (of course) > that they are not human so far but also suggesting that humanity is > something stable to be reached for. > I find this book very hard to pin down (and hence extremely interesting). me too. I guess I read the Js as female possibilities. They are four possible women, from Russ infinite universes, that have been socially constructed by their world's unique history and ideology. I don't think that they constitue one unified female subject, unless that subject is "everywoman". I just argued in a paper that together they form a fragmented hero. (Does this hero concept contradict what i said above? I don't know, hope not:) I was talking about J's struggle against oppressive ideologies that limit personal development. Their interaction, and the education they each receive because of that interaction, defines their heroism... I contrasted Russ's J with Cadigan's M in _Fools_, if anyone wants to discuss that one :) But again, I still haven't "pinned FM down" and I'm not sure that one can. Andrea Klein From ???@??? Tue Apr 15 12:17:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA195724 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:00:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04142 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:58:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA91788; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:46:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9734 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:46:09 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA40346 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:45:43 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id MAA20947; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:45:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:45:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: To Micheal Levy, I lectured on The Female Man last sumester. The reactions varied wildly from stunned shock (mostly young men- I don't really think the book is adressed to men actually, although having them read something that is not adressed to them (which women have to do all the time) is in itself useful), to absolute hostility (mostly, interestingly, from young women), with the occassional enthusiastic responce (about 5 out of a class of 90).The novels violence (although Russ- rather disingenuiously I feel, argues that it is not violent). This doesn't mean I think that the book isn't worth teaching, at all. Exposing people to ideas that they instictively dislike can be productive and can force them to think of things that had previously never occurred to them. The book is provacative- a sort of guerrilla attack on people's dearly held assumptions. It also refuses to be reduced to a coherent narrative and many students dislike having to actually pierce together what is going on, and work at reading.I am extremely unimpressed by this argument for removing it from book lists. I found it very useful as an introduction to post-modernism. I also found tying it to its time one way of dealing with it. There is no doubt that it is anchored to the state of things in the 1970's. But as this was the time when feminism first forced its way into SF(among other things), I can't see this time boundedness as making the book irrelevant. As the book itself states, when it is no longer relevant, then its task will be completed. I think its very relevant in these neo-con times, but many may disagree.... Tanya. From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:51:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA268878 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:39:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08057 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:38:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23400; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:19:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10381 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:19:06 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA81382 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:18:04 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id NAA26003; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:18:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:18:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, Apologies- I didn't read over my Female Man response well enough, leaving a sentence incomplete. The sentence concerned the novel's violence, which for many of my students was a key reason for hostility towards the novel. Women, should (as we all know) be ladylike and self effacing and NOT slam people's thumbs in doors, break arms, or kill idiot boss-men.Incidently, one way I tried to "sell" the book to the class was through the novel's humour. Judging from the blank looks in the class, I am the only person in the world who found the book funny. Mike Levy's comments on students, especially women's studies students, disliking The FM and The Women Men Don't See make things seem very bleak. And as for LIKING such stupidly romantic and grimly heterosexual nonsense as Anne McCaffrey's *The Ship Who Sang*......words fail, they really do. I found *The Ship* very funny in places, especially the moment where Neill tries to penetrate Helga's Hull in order to screw her non-existent (but genetically very attractive) body.I wonder if this notion of Helga as "essentially" really cute makes her attractive to male and female readers, where the women in Tiptree's "Women that Men Don't See" are after all plain and easily ignorable.Ironies, Ironies. Tiptree's defeatism on women's rights may be completely correct. Has the beauty myth won so easily? And to audiences that really should be critical? I have to wonder what sort of "women's studies" programme is being run at this university.....is feminism being firmly excised from it? Yours despairingly, Tanya. From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:51:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA250478 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:00:04 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10435 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:01:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA37090; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:49:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10789 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:49:01 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA23716 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:48:48 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 97 12:48:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:48:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: > I'm sure that the students in my SF and > >gender class thought I was "privileging boring but intellectually > >complex texts" when I assigned The Female Man and The Door into Ocean, > >two books I love, when they'd rather have been reading easier stories. > > What exactly did they object to in Door Into Ocean? I would love to teach > it, but I've had a bad experience before--I taught More Than Human, and the > students were universally thumbs down--I haven't yet figured out if it was > because it was too dated, not interesting to them, or if my presentation > fell flat. I should mention that Door into Ocean is probably out of print now and unavailable. Our university bookstore was able to round up enough copies by contacting a number of their branch stores since the distributors and publisher didn't have any. Based on class evaluations and comments during discussion, it was too complex and too slow, nothing much happened, passive resistance doesn't work and isn't very believable, suicide is not an acceptable option, and they couldn't connect with the viewpoint characters. Sigh. Mike From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:51:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA199796 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:25:52 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12814 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:24:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA91762; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:06:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11067 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:06:02 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA86910 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:05:20 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA21110 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.81] (hagedorn.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.81]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28382 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:05:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hagedors@mail.vt.edu References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:05:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: sue hagedorn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: >> What exactly did they object to in Door Into Ocean? I would love to teach >> it I'm really interested in Door Into Ocean for its (seemingly) representation of precepts of feminist biology. I wonder if students would have a different reaction if they knew the author was a practicing geneticist? (I'm working on a paper on fictional representations of feminist biology written by female scientists.) Probably not. I mirror your sighs. Sue Hagedorn From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:51:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA78600 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:36:30 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13925 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:35:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA35266; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:09:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11110 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:09:05 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA81758 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:07:52 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 97 13:07:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:07:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > To Micheal Levy, > I lectured on The Female Man last sumester. The reactions varied wildly > from stunned shock (mostly young men- I don't really think the book is > adressed to men actually, although having them read something that is not > adressed to them (which women have to do all the time) is in itself > useful), to absolute hostility (mostly, interestingly, > from young women), with the occassional enthusiastic responce (about 5 > out of a class of 90).The novels violence (although Russ- rather > disingenuiously I feel, argues that it is not violent). The hostility that young men feel towards such texts isn't surprising, of course. I agree with you that The Female Man really isn't addressed to men and that it's undoubtedly good for men to have to deal with being the other once in a while--I can still remember how strange it was for me to read the book in my early twenties. That women feel hostility toward The Female Man, however, and for that matter toward many 60-80s feminists texts, is both disturbing and fascinating. One of my students told me that this is a Generation-X thing and that I couldn't expect to understand it. (This was the first time that I am aware of that I was ever the victim of verbal age-ism. Strange experience.) She saw current student hostility or at best disinterest towards feminism as similar to student attitudes towards Vietnam. Interestingly enough she saw the generational gap as much more important than the gender gap. > > This doesn't mean I think that the book isn't worth teaching, at all. > Exposing people to ideas that they instictively dislike can be productive > and can force them to think of things that had previously never occurred > to them. The book is provacative- a sort of guerrilla attack on people's > dearly held assumptions. This is an important point, I think. It's hard to differentiate sometimes between a lack of understanding and not wanting to understand something that makes you uncomfortable. It also refuses to be reduced to a > coherent narrative and many students dislike having to actually pierce > together what is going on, and work at reading.I am extremely unimpressed > by this argument for removing it from book lists. You're right, of course. This reminds me of the snit my 9 year old threw last week when I told her she was too old to need someone to cut up her chicken for her and that she needed to learn to do it herself. > > I found it very useful as an > introduction to post-modernism. I also found tying it to its > time one way of dealing with it. There is no doubt that it is anchored to > the state of things in the 1970's. But as this was the time when feminism > first forced its way into SF(among other things), I can't see this time > boundedness as making the book > irrelevant. As the book itself states, when it is no longer > relevant, then its task will be completed. I think its very relevant in > these neo-con times, but many may disagree.... > > Tanya. Yes, you're right, but tell this to a room full of female college students who insist that they themselves have never been victimized by sexism and never will be. Mike From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:52:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA229678 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:27:29 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19380 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:27:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA76906; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:03:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 12172 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:03:02 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA47320 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:02:49 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA25060 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:56:06 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970415140532.28a72d86@academic.truman.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:03:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: At 13:18 4/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dear All, Apologies- I didn't read over my Female Man response well >enough, leaving a sentence incomplete. The sentence concerned the >novel's violence, which for many of my students was a key reason for >hostility towards the novel. Women, should (as we all know) be ladylike >and self effacing and NOT slam people's thumbs in doors, break arms, or >kill idiot boss-men.Incidently, one way I tried to "sell" the book to the >class was through the novel's humour. Judging from the blank looks in the >class, I am the only person in the world who found the book funny. > >Mike Levy's comments on students, especially women's >studies students, disliking The FM and The Women Men Don't See make >things seem very bleak. And as for LIKING such stupidly romantic >and grimly heterosexual nonsense as Anne McCaffrey's *The Ship Who >Sang*......words fail, they really do. I >found *The Ship* very funny in places, especially the moment where Neill >tries to penetrate Helga's Hull in order to screw her non-existent (but >genetically very attractive) body.I wonder if this notion of Helga as >"essentially" really cute makes her attractive to male and female readers, >where the women in Tiptree's "Women that Men Don't See" are after all >plain >and easily ignorable.Ironies, Ironies. Tiptree's defeatism on women's >rights may be completely >correct. Has the beauty myth won so easily? And to audiences >that really should be critical? I have to wonder what sort of "women's >studies" programme is being run at this university.....is feminism being >firmly excised from it? > >Yours despairingly, > >Tanya. > Robin McKinley does a really powerful number on the "really attractive" attraction in _Deerskin_ which is our final novel in the fantasy class this semester. We have some students in the class with a feminist orientation (Women's Studies minor), and some with a very traditional outlook on fantasy. They are dissecting the "beauty myth" rather cogently from that book... Have any of you taught/read it? I find it very powerful (more so in a way than Russ, because it's more psychologically sympathetic), but absolutely ruthless. We're only just opening the conversation at this point in class, but I expect things will get even more exciting soon. Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:52:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA118054 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:56:03 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29007 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:57:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA31566; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:39:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 14675 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:39:14 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21444 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:28:04 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA04050 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970415162541_-1702957963@emout08.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:27:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Dowling Subject: being new to the list To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: I'm just clocking in and saying HI. I feel that as a new person to the list, it is a bit voyeuristic reading the mail without letting people know that I am looking in, I am impressed with what i have read so far, and I'm feeling pretty challenged at what I ahve read, andf how I have interpreted it. Some stuff i read a long time ago, and i went off SF for a long time. I'm back into it, and thus was pleased to see the list. I feel that with the recent lists of recommended reading, I shall be busy for quite a while doing some reading. I don't have a background in literature criticism, and mostly I take things at face value - may be too niavely. I was interested in the stuff about Aliens as i had understood that the part was originally written for a man, and that it was only cast as a woman at the last moment when all the scripts had ben written. This ahs always coloured my watching of the film, and I didn't allow my self to give it any other interprationas it was really a "man's" story And I am still struggling with ideas such as dystropia (what!!). I'll get my dictionary out and see if I can keep up with you all Any way, happy reading - Janet Dowling From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:52:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA178914 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:35:24 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02802 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:35:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA84838; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:09:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 15922 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:09:04 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA37008 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:08:49 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 97 17:09 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:09:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970415140532.28a72d86@academic.truman.edu> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Martha Bartter wrote: NH: I've read it. Have always found the folk tale on which it's based terrifying and fascinating. You're right; the book was ruthless and powerful. Be interesting to know your students' reactions. -nalo > > > Robin McKinley does a really powerful number on the "really attractive" > attraction in _Deerskin_ which is our final novel in the fantasy class > this semester. We have some students in the class with a feminist > orientation (Women's Studies minor), and some with a very traditional > outlook on fantasy. They are dissecting the "beauty myth" rather > cogently from that book... > > Have any of you taught/read it? I find it very powerful (more so in a > way than Russ, because it's more psychologically sympathetic), but > absolutely ruthless. We're only just opening the conversation at this > point in class, but I expect things will get even more exciting soon. > > > Martha Bartter > Truman State University > "Sleeping in shifts, or working in shifts, or if you were so tired you couldn't sleep you stared at the television and learned a new language. Whadya say. They learned this. Watched every show. After, feeling confident they'd gained something, a key to the day..." From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:52:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA247450 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:34:15 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02783 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:34:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA48602; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:21:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 16030 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:21:03 -0500 Received: from jicama.ece.ucdavis.edu (jicama.ece.ucdavis.edu [128.120.54.233]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA68776 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:09:13 -0500 Received: (from bgray@localhost) by jicama.ece.ucdavis.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08299 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704152109.OAA08299@jicama.ece.ucdavis.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:09:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: +++jY? (?? ??E From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:52:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA111688 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:33:08 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02595 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:32:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA48148; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:13:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 16121 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:13:02 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA76168 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:11:56 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 97 17:12 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:12:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: being new to the list To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970415162541_-1702957963@emout08.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Janet Dowling wrote: > I don't have a background in literature criticism NH: Me neither, although in my job I get to sit in on literary grant adjudications by writers who do. I'm absorbing some of it by osmosis, but by no means all. Race you for the dictionary! -nalo , and mostly I take things > at face value - may be too niavely. I was interested in the stuff about > Aliens as i had understood that the part was originally written for a man, > and that it was only cast as a woman at the last moment when all the scripts > had ben written. This ahs always coloured my watching of the film, and I > didn't allow my self to give it any other interprationas it was really a > "man's" story > > And I am still struggling with ideas such as dystropia (what!!). I'll get my > dictionary out and see if I can keep up with you all > > Any way, happy reading - > > > Janet Dowling > "Sleeping in shifts, or working in shifts, or if you were so tired you couldn't sleep you stared at the television and learned a new language. Whadya say. They learned this. Watched every show. After, feeling confident they'd gained something, a key to the day..." From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:53:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA98610 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:33:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11836 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:35:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA46362; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:25:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 18693 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:25:02 -0500 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA38900 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:24:59 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA23099 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970415192243_-701444665@emout14.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:24:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezesRE: my own take on this To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi, One thing I will have to cautious of when I am given the opportunity to teach a literature course, is to take into consideration the reasons the works to be read and analysed are being used. I am a college senior now, with one year to go for my bachelors, and have been exposed to a variety of methods when it comes to literature courses. What I mean by being cautious, I want to make sure that by the time a course ends at final exam time that my students have been able to examine a representative body of works as specified within the genre, whether American Literature to 1800 or Feminist Science Fiction of the late 1970s. That said, I want to make it clear that I have to consider that the course these students are enrolled in is a step to prepare them possibly for certain examinations needed to be admitted to graduate school. Within the confines or boundaries of these considerations, I need to make a representative list of works that will represent the genre to be examined. A componant that I wish would be all inclusive is that the representative works to be used in the course are entertaining to my students. When you discuss the merits of an entertaining work of literature, you know everyone has their own interests when it comes to being entertained. You cannot please everyone. It is a given and I have not graduated from college yet that there are works chosen to be read in class that will be dry, sermon-like, outright boring, etc., and yet in order to fufill the requirements for passing the course I had better do my job as a student and analyse the text. It is okay for a student to say this bored me or I did not like this or this is so antiquated...it could take years to figure out why the student did not get it, why he/she did not like it etc. Until recently, I only thought of Science Fiction as a "fun" way to escape and never considered it a literary genre until I read Nancy Kress' Beggars In Spain. It may be hard to take in when a student says "I thought this was supposed to be fun," there could be a gazillion reasons why they do not understand yet the importance of applying critical analysis to a work of science fiction, but it wastes a lot of energy to even try to figure out. My job I hope will be to guide a classroom of students toward an understanding of a particular genre, not to argue the fun out of a course text. Jo Ann From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:54:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA180318 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:28:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA25788 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:28:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA129920; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:09:23 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19872 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:46:03 -0500 Received: from pimaia2y.prodigy.com (pimaia2y.prodigy.com [198.83.18.95]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA41334 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:45:11 -0500 Received: from mime4.prodigy.com (mime4.prodigy.com [192.168.254.43]) by pimaia2y.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA24546 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:23:23 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by mime4.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id UAA294444 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:19:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Prodigy Internet GW(v0.9beta) - ae02dm02sc06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <199704160019.UAA294444@mime4.prodigy.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: being new to the list To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Ms. Dowling says: > it is a bit voyeuristic reading the mail without letting people know that I am > looking in, You're right, so introducing myself to the list: a Minneapolis journalist & bookscout (hunter of used and rare books). Longtime casual SF reader, trying to get more serious about knowing the genre. Looking forward to my third Wiscon. > I feel that with the recent lists of recommended > reading, I shall be busy for quite a while doing some reading. Very similar experience for me. I'm in a good reading/book club, which helps (we've done Rebecca Ore & Karen Joy Fowler recently). > And I am still struggling with ideas such as dystopia (what!!). I'll get my > dictionary out and see if I can keep up with you all Best short definition of dystopia I've ever seen is cited in my sig... -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:54:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA278730 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:38:22 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA26434 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:40:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA101640; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:16:52 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20887 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:16:50 -0500 Received: from odin.ax.com (odin.ax.com [199.184.188.9]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA92286 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:13:52 -0500 Received: from [199.184.188.100] (ppp100.ax.com [199.184.188.100]) by odin.ax.com (8.8.3/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id SAA26621 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:52:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Arrrrrrrgh! > >Yes, you're right, but tell this to a room full of female college students >who insist that they themselves have never been victimized by sexism and >never will be. > >Mike And what reality do *they* exist in? I wanna move there! Alternate universe? What? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:54:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA243392 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:40:23 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA26484 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:41:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA132408; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:25 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20437 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:23 -0500 Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA81684 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:11:26 -0500 Received: from funhouse-jed (dial-85-MAX-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.54.85]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01407 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:11:22 -0400 X-Sender: jdawley@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970416041326.006b295c@together.net> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:13:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Tanya Wood wrote: >I lectured on The Female Man last sumester. The reactions varied wildly >from stunned shock (mostly young men- I don't really think the book is >adressed to men actually, although having them read something that is not >adressed to them (which women have to do all the time) is in itself >useful), I think that Russ was writing to whoever might be interested, rather than to to either sex in particular. As she once wrote (re: the "deadlock" of sexism: "I think breaking the deadlock has to take many forms, one of which is political action, of whatever kind one feels congenial. I tend to Write Letters myself, to magazines, Congress, NYS versions thereof, newpapers, even fanzines. There is nothing like _public_ protest to lift the spirits." I don't know if she considers The Female Man as such a protest, but to me it sounds appropriate. By the way, that quote came from an excellent written symposium called Khatru 3 & 4, which took place in 1975. Some of the more well-known participants included Russ, Suzy McKee Charnas, Ursula Le Guin, Samuel Delany, James Tiptree Jr., and Kate Wilhelm. A reprinted booklet of the symposium can be obtained for $16.50 from Jeanne Gomoll, whose e-mail address is artbrau@aol.com. She also wrote: >As the book itself states, when it is no longer >relevant, then its task will be completed. I think its very relevant in >these neo-con times, but many may disagree.... To which Michael Levy responded: >Yes, you're right, but tell this to a room full of female college students >who insist that they themselves have never been victimized by sexism and >never will be. This especially strikes me after getting the latest alumni magazine from my alma mater, Hamilton College. The theme of the magazine was "Women on the Hill", with particular focus on Kirkland College, a "sister school" to Hamilton that existed for less than 10 years before it was subsumed by Hamilton. The various perspective pieces by women graduates have barely anything to say about sexism, instead denying it's an issue with statements like, "I never had a class in which I felt uncomfortable speaking because I was a woman..." That may be true, but it leaves the impression that there's nothing left to do, and that ALL women are doing this well. (The alumni magazine's editorial policies obviously have something to do with this imbalance.) Of course, it's not very convincing to tell someone they're being oppressed if they simply don't feel that way. But speaking personally, it took me some time to develop as a feminist. I loved The Female Man when I read it the summer after graduating from college. I might not have felt the same way if it had been assigned reading. -- Janice Dawley From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:54:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA140696 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:48:35 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29489 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:50:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA129590; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:41:13 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25530 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:41:10 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA129204 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:40:59 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Wed, 16 Apr 97 01:41 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:41:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: being new to the list To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199704160019.UAA294444@mime4.prodigy.com> Status: RO X-Status: NH: I had an absolute zinging blast at WisCon 20 last year. (Nicola, sorry I didn't get to meet you then, but I think I was on the opposite program track from hell). If that one was anything to go by, I highly recommend WisCon. The panels were interesting, I got to meet Ursula Le Guin (and take part in a performance/reading of an excerpt of _Always Coming Home_, which is a book of hers that I revere). I have a Toronto friend who has avoided WisCon because he thinks he'd be out of place by reason of his gender. Nope. Lots of people hanging around talking about books. I was in heaven. -nalo On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > > Ms. Dowling says: > > it is a bit voyeuristic reading the mail without letting people know > that I am > > looking in, > > You're right, so introducing myself to the list: a Minneapolis > journalist & bookscout (hunter of used and rare books). Longtime casual > SF reader, trying to get more serious about knowing the genre. Looking > forward to my third Wiscon. > > > I feel that with the recent lists of recommended > > reading, I shall be busy for quite a while doing some reading. > > Very similar experience for me. I'm in a good reading/book club, which > helps (we've done Rebecca Ore & Karen Joy Fowler recently). > > > And I am still struggling with ideas such as dystopia (what!!). I'll > get my > > dictionary out and see if I can keep up with you all > > Best short definition of dystopia I've ever seen is cited in my sig... > -- > > David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com > > "If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra > "Sleeping in shifts, or working in shifts, or if you were so tired you couldn't sleep you stared at the television and learned a new language. Whadya say. They learned this. Watched every show. After, feeling confident they'd gained something, a key to the day..." From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:55:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA71308 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:20:19 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA03260 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:22:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA28904; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:17:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 26361 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:17:02 -0500 Received: from gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil (firewall-user@[198.250.180.194]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA84942 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:16:15 -0500 Received: by gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil; id AA00870; Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:17:46 HST Received: from tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil(198.26.242.10) by gatekeeper.tamc.amedd.army.mil via smap (V3.1.1) id xma000855; Tue, 15 Apr 97 22:17:22 -1000 Forwarded-By: Daniel L Krashin Message-ID: <11230439@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:15:09 -1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel L Krashin Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: >From: farah mendlesohn > > I taught The Female Man last semester in a course on science fiction and > gender. Also did books or stories by LeGuin, Slonczewski, Bujold, Charnas, > Arnason, Tiptree, Heinlein, Piercy, Griffith, C.L.Moore, McCaffrey, Delany, > etc. > > Of all the stories we read, The Female Man was clearly the least > successful, at least in terms of class participation. > SNIP > It might be worth mentioning that in a poll conducted at the end of the > class the most popular stories were 1) McCaffrey's "The Ship Who Sang," > 2) Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time, 3) Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh > Mistress, 4 LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness, and 5) Griffith's > Ammonite tied with Bujold's Ethan of Athos. The McCaffrey and Heinlein > stories, of course, were in there to show old-fashioned, sexist attitudes. > Surprise! 1)You have to take into account that _The Female Man_ is something of a polemic. It's not trying to make you like it, it's trying to start a fight (or at least an argument). McCaffrey and Heinlein, on the other hand, are trading largely in Sense-of-Wonder. Does it surprise you that people would rather be dazzled than argued with? In support of my point, _Woman on the Edge of Time_ , which you list as coming in #2 is both radical and an engrossing tale. (BTW, has anyone else noticed how much the dystopia in WOTEOT resembles cyberpunk?) As an experiment, you might try using "When It Changed" in a lineup of short fiction -- as someone pointed out already, the story packs a much bigger emotional punch... It rocked my 14 year old whiteboy world... 2)It's easy to forget that Anne McCaffrey wasn't always the mistress of Pern INC. I gather, from the awards of the time, that she was something of a groundbreaking and innovative writer in the late 1960's. (Although not a feminist one.) Cs "Ship" really that bad? Contrary to Tanya Wood's comment, I recall the scene ofI sexual frustration in "The Ship who Sang" to be more nuanced and moving than just a scenario of failed rape. YMMV. Daniel Krashin [re-lurking] From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:55:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA214986 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:04:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09819 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:03:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA50922; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:47:29 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28130 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:47:27 -0500 Received: from tower.itis.com (tower.itis.com [205.243.195.7]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA41146 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:36:27 -0500 Received: from j24.itis.com (j24.itis.com [207.67.67.24]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA16356 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:33:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: by j24.itis.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC4A38.7D5556A0@j24.itis.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:33:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by piglet.cc.uic.edu id HAA41146 Message-ID: <01BC4A38.7D5556A0@j24.itis.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tara Ayres Subject: Re: being new to the list To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: I'm a regular at WisCon, and it is a wonderful event. Four days of talking about feminist SF, getting to hear a variety of new work read by the authors, lots of information about new things to explore. I second Nalo's recommendation. Tara ---------- From: Nalo Hopkinson[SMTP:bl213@FREENET.TORONTO.ON.CA] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 12:41 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: being new to the list NH: I had an absolute zinging blast at WisCon 20 last year. (Nicola, sorry I didn't get to meet you then, but I think I was on the opposite program track from hell). If that one was anything to go by, I highly recommend WisCon. The panels were interesting, I got to meet Ursula Le Guin (and take part in a performance/reading of an excerpt of _Always Coming Home_, which is a book of hers that I revere). I have a Toronto friend who has avoided WisCon because he thinks he'd be out of place by reason of his gender. Nope. Lots of people hanging around talking about books. I was in heaven. -nalo On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > > Ms. Dowling says: > > it is a bit voyeuristic reading the mail without letting people know > that I am > > looking in, > > You're right, so introducing myself to the list: a Minneapolis > journalist & bookscout (hunter of used and rare books). Longtime casual > SF reader, trying to get more serious about knowing the genre. Looking > forward to my third Wiscon. > > > I feel that with the recent lists of recommended > > reading, I shall be busy for quite a while doing some reading. > > Very similar experience for me. I'm in a good reading/book club, which > helps (we've done Rebecca Ore & Karen Joy Fowler recently). > > > And I am still struggling with ideas such as dystopia (what!!). I'll > get my > > dictionary out and see if I can keep up with you all > > Best short definition of dystopia I've ever seen is cited in my sig... > -- > > David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com > > "If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra > "Sleeping in shifts, or working in shifts, or if you were so tired you couldn't sleep you stared at the television and learned a new language. Whadya say. They learned this. Watched every show. After, feeling confident they'd gained something, a key to the day..." From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:55:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA256440 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:04:31 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09835 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:03:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA50860; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:51:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28345 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:51:04 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA81984 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:49:43 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 97 08:50 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:50:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <11230439@tamc.chcs.amedd.army.mil> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Daniel L Krashin wrote: > > 2)It's easy to forget that Anne McCaffrey wasn't always the mistress of > Pern INC. I gather, from the awards of the time, that she was something of a > groundbreaking and innovative writer in the late 1960's. (Although not a > feminist one.) Cs "Ship" really that bad? Contrary to Tanya Wood's comment, > I recall the scene ofI sexual frustration in "The Ship who Sang" to be more > nuanced and moving than just a scenario of failed rape. YMMV. Daniel Krashin NH: YMMV? Your move? Young Mothers Make Vittles? I remember that scene. I read the "ship's" human body as being trapped and vulnerable, so I found that scene threatening and icky. Meant that I never did find the male pilot dashing or sympathetic, but egoistic and self-involved. But in terms of the 60's and 70's, I suspect that McCaffrey's work was ground-breaking, because as coy and sexually determined as her whole Pern society is, women are active and vocal participants in it; out there on dragonback fighting Thread, and being scientists, and so on. I devoured her books when I was younger, then it slowly filtered through that they weren't exactly progressive, not just with relation to gender, but to race. -nalo "Sleeping in shifts, or working in shifts, or if you were so tired you couldn't sleep you stared at the television and learned a new language. Whadya say. They learned this. Watched every show. After, feeling confident they'd gained something, a key to the day..." Dionne Brand, _Another Place, Not Here_ From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:55:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA63178 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:19:12 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10797 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:19:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA32822; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:09:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28723 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:09:05 -0500 Received: from ns.potsdam.edu (ns.potsdam.edu [137.143.110.101]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA92304 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:07:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 15773 invoked by alias); 16 Apr 1997 13:17:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 15768 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1997 13:17:14 -0000 Received: from dial?port?20.potsdam.edu (HELO ?137.143.110.224?) (137.143.110.224) by ns.potsdam.edu with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 13:17:14 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <19970416131719.15772.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:24:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Dystopia, Utopia: Janet Dowling's Intro To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: For Janet: From my syllabus-- (probably more than you want to know!) What is a Utopia? A Utopia is a place or state of political and social perfection. Utopian fiction portrays a visionary system of political and social perfection by providing a normative and evaluative description of the perfectly good society. Features of Utopias often include (1) a stable and (2) cooperative society wherein (3) the benefits (goods, resources) and the burdens (e.g., distasteful but necessary services, taxes) are equally shared and (4) everyone engages in meaningful work and leisure. What is a Dystopia? According to M. Keith Booker, 'dystopian literature' (1) directly opposes "utopian thought, warning against the potential negative consequences of arrant utopianism" and (2) criticizes "existing social conditions or political systems, either through the critical examination of the utopian premises upon which those conditions and systems are based or through the imaginative extension of those conditions and systems into different contexts that more clearly reveal their flaws and contradictions." Both Utopias and Dystopias are calls to social and political action: Utopias, by describing the world in which we want to live, and Dystopias, by warning us of the implications of current social and political trends and by prodding us to act on these warnings. What is a Feminist Utopia? Sally Miller Gearhart sets out four characteristics of Feminist Utopian literature: it "a. contrasts the present with an envisioned idealized society (separated from the present by time or space); b. offers a comprehensive critique of present values/conditions; c. sees men or male institutions as a major cause of present social ills; and d. presents women not only as at least the equals of men but also as the sole arbiters of their reproductive functions." In any case, conditions of full equality between the sexes must hold in a Feminist Utopian society. Perhaps we can tentatively characterize a Feminist Dystopia, then, as a work that warns of the potential sexist and otherwise harmful consequences of Traditional or Feminist Utopian thought, and critiques a particular set of Traditional or Feminist social, political, and moral theories by depicting a future in which these theoretical assumptions ground the systemic oppression of one sex by the other. Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 09:56:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA181164 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:14:39 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15610 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:15:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA80856; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:58:19 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 30025 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:58:17 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA100530 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:57:03 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 16 Apr 97 08:56:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:56:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Wiscon: Was-Re: being new to the list To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: I had an absolute zinging blast at WisCon 20 last year. (Nicola, > sorry I didn't get to meet you then, but I think I was on the opposite > program track from hell). If that one was anything to go by, I highly > recommend WisCon. The panels were interesting, I got to meet Ursula Le > Guin (and take part in a performance/reading of an excerpt of _Always > Coming Home_, which is a book of hers that I revere). I have a Toronto > friend who has avoided WisCon because he thinks he'd be out of place by > reason of his gender. Nope. Lots of people hanging around talking about > books. I was in heaven. > > -nalo Wiscon 20 was something of a special case last year. 20th anniversary and all that. Wiscon 21, which is being run by some friends of mine, will be a good bit smaller and somewhat more intimate. Still, there will be some fine authors. Melissa Scott is Guest of Honor. Other regulars include Joan Vinge, who lives in Madison, Eleanor Arnason, Pat Murphy, etc. etc. Most of the programing, although not all of it, will be feminist. The Tiptree Award ceremony will be absent as it was given out at the International Association for the Fantastic in the Arts annual conference this year, but the annual Tiptree bakesale will occur. Anyone interested in finding out more about Wiscon, which occurs May 23-26, 1997 in Madison, WI, can get information at their web site www.sf3.org/wiscon/ or by writing to wiscon.concom@cs.wisc.edu or by phoning them at 608-233-8850 Mike From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 11:21:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA246848 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:04:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20935 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:04:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA77500; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:53:18 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 31836 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:53:16 -0500 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.95]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA71624 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:52:40 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA17124 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970416105150_-500198898@emout04.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:52:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Harman Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: I have been (up to now) silently following the thread on the Female Man and A Door into Ocean, which, just to put my biases out front, are two of the most powerful books I have ever read. I read them at completely different times in my life and that probably has a lot to do with how they affected me. I read FM when it first came out, delighted to be reading sf by a woman who was talking about the impossibility of being women in whatever world, as long the conflicting expectations of women remained in place. Door I read during the Gulf War at a time when I was, myself, trying to write and make art about violence and war. Perhaps these two books, more than others that have less complicated views of existence, are more "timely" and require a personal resonance in order to be fully appreciated. I tried several years ago to reread The Female Man and was unable to sustain the interest. While that was somewhat disappointing, it is not unusual to find that one has moved past (or, in the case of students, not yet arrived at) whatever place in life makes a book especially enjoyable, instructive or challenging. I think it is a mistake to expect that it is entirely within your control (and therefore your responsibility) to make sure each student in your class properly appreciates, is engaged by, or even likes, every book you introduce. And (the eternally optimistic teacher here), you never know what is sinking in and will surface later to produce change well beyond your immediate influence. Barbara From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 11:21:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA286954 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:04:55 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20878 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:04:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA71596; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:55:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 31846 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:55:02 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA77382 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:53:52 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27254; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:59 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:55:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Dystopia, Utopia: Janet Dowling's Intro To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <19970416131719.15772.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Judith A. Little wrote: > For Janet: > From my syllabus-- (probably more than you want to know!) [snip] > What is a Feminist Utopia? Sally Miller Gearhart sets out four > characteristics of Feminist Utopian literature: it "a. contrasts the > present with an envisioned idealized society (separated from the present by > time or space); b. offers a comprehensive critique of present > values/conditions; c. sees men or male institutions as a major cause of > present social ills; and d. presents women not only as at least the equals > of men but also as the sole arbiters of their reproductive functions." In > any case, conditions of full equality between the sexes must hold in a > Feminist Utopian society. Ack. I have problems with that definition. Certainly some feminist utopias see men as "the problem." However, any feminist utopia that includes men with the same biology as they currently have in percentages similar to the current day must not take that position. Why not a much simpler definition? How about: Presents an idealized society which has as an integral, necessary part gender roles that do not put men above women. Another possible requirement is that this society is presented as reasonable for beings "essentially" human. > Perhaps we can tentatively characterize a Feminist Dystopia, then, > as a work that warns of the potential sexist and otherwise harmful > consequences of Traditional or Feminist Utopian thought, and critiques a > particular set of Traditional or Feminist social, political, and moral > theories by depicting a future in which these theoretical assumptions > ground the systemic oppression of one sex by the other. > Judith The question is how to classify a thought-experiment like Tepper's _Gate_to_Women's_Country_ or David Brin's _Glory_Season_ that presents a utopian world and critiques it without putting it in the realm of a dystopia? After all, I would think that _Handmaid's_Tale_ might be a feminist dystopia, but neither of the above comes even close to being similar to that book. -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Wed Apr 16 11:21:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA272186 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:15:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28867 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:14:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA78952; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:51:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 33494 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:51:05 -0500 Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (ghoshal@virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA78854 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:49:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (ghoshal@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA04025 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:48:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ghoshal@virtu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:48:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: Geek Love To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <970414173944_1055964043@emout10.mail.aol.com> _Geek Love_ is phenomenal! I strongly second Hope's recommendation of _Geek Love_ as a book to teach regarding family. Mala From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:19:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA62582 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:51:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12784 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:52:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA98484; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:39:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 41852 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:39:05 -0500 Received: from script.lib.indiana.edu (script.lib.indiana.edu [129.79.32.42]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA134124 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:28:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (hwhipple@localhost) by script.lib.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA00518 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:26:31 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: intro; Lathe; Sparrow; Tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Hello-- I subscribed yesterday, and I've just finished skimming the list archives, which is quite a task! (Laura: you might want to consider resetting the archives to log files on a weekly basis if possible; the file for April--2 weeks--was already 424 K) I'm a librarian at Swarthmore College (pay no attention to the Indiana email address behind the curtain; I'm really in Pennsylvania), and have been a feminist sf fan for about 15 years. I was first drawn into sf by either _Wizard of Earthsea_ or _Dragonsong_--going back to the discussion of artwork I read in the archives, both of these books had lovely paperpack covers. But I think the first sf book I ever read was _Wump World_ by Bill Peet when I was about 6. Anybody else know that one? Now about the film of _Lathe of Heaven_. (I didn't see this info when I skimmed the log files, but sorry if it was already posted.) Last year I called the video office at the PBS station which produced it (WNET). The archivist told me he gets about a call a week asking for this movie. Unfortunately, the language of the various contracts involved makes distribution basically impossible. For a slightly longer explanation, see http://www.oz.net/~jhawk/lathe.htm Finally, has anyone read _The Sparrow_ yet? It too escaped the NYT Book Review sf ghetto with its own "real" review, though actually I'm not entirely sure it felt like sf to me anyway. However, it does add more evidence to my sense that the Tiptree award winners make a wacky set of titles! (and I say that with great affection and admiration for the award) Taken individually each book and story is great. But it's quite difficult, I think, to really generalize anything about the works as a group. Of course, there's no reason we *should* be able to do that, except maybe as a way of thinking about the award. 1997: _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell "Mountain Ways" by Ursula Le Guin 1996: _Waking the Moon_ by Elizabeth Hand _The Memoirs of Elizabeth Frankenstein_ by Theodore Roszak 1995: _Larque on the Wing_ by Nancy Springer "The Matter of Seggri" by Ursula Le Guin 1994: _Ammonite_ by Nicola Griffith 1993: _China Mountain Zhang_ by Maureen F. McHugh 1992: _A Woman of the Iron People_ by Eleanor Arnason _White Queen_ by Gwyneth Jones Farrah and Mike mentioned the SFRA list. Could one of you (or anyone else who knows) post subscription info for it? Thanks. *************** Heather Whipple hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:18:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA261454 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:14:22 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09758 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:13:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA132918; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:57:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 41000 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:57:03 -0500 Received: from swva.net (root@ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA31024 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:46:37 -0500 Received: from [128.173.7.89] ([128.173.7.89]) by swva.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28800 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:51:34 -0400 X-Sender: pandolfo@puma.macbsd.com References: <3.0.1.16.19970415140532.28a72d86@academic.truman.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:46:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Pandolfo Subject: Re: Deerskin (was Re: The Female Man) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: I, too, would love to hear about your students' reactions. I found this to be a deeply disturbing, thought-provoking novel (I'm not familiar with the original folk tale). I agree it's more "psychologically sympathetic", and all the more disturbing because of how McKinley handles the attack scene. I felt caught up in the events and strangely distanced at the same time, and I think it powerfully (and clearly) shows how psychologically damaging such an event can be, much more so than other writing trying to graphically describe a victim's reactions. >On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > >NH: I've read it. Have always found the folk tale on which it's based >terrifying and fascinating. You're right; the book was ruthless and >powerful. Be interesting to know your students' reactions. >On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Martha Bartter wrote: >> >> Robin McKinley does a really powerful number on the "really attractive" >> attraction in _Deerskin_ which is our final novel in the fantasy class >> this semester. We have some students in the class with a feminist >> orientation (Women's Studies minor), and some with a very traditional >> outlook on fantasy. They are dissecting the "beauty myth" rather >> cogently from that book... >> >> Have any of you taught/read it? I find it very powerful (more so in a >> way than Russ, because it's more psychologically sympathetic), but >> absolutely ruthless. We're only just opening the conversation at this >> point in class, but I expect things will get even more exciting soon. -- Elizabeth L. Pandolfo/Briggs pandolfo@macbsd.com http://www.macbsd.com/~pandolfo/index.html "Whatever happens, believe that the journey is worth taking..." --Peth, "Seaward" From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:23:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA120742 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:14:17 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20955 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:14:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA130868; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:01:20 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 44366 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:01:17 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA52314 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:59:32 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 16 Apr 97 19:59:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: intro; Lathe; Sparrow; Tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Heather Whipple wrote: > > Finally, has anyone read _The Sparrow_ yet? It too escaped the NYT Book > Review sf ghetto with its own "real" review, though actually I'm not > entirely sure it felt like sf to me anyway. However, it does add more > evidence to my sense that the Tiptree award winners make a wacky set of > titles! (and I say that with great affection and admiration for the > award) Taken individually each book and story is great. But it's quite > difficult, I think, to really generalize anything about the works as a > group. Of course, there's no reason we *should* be able to do that, > except maybe as a way of thinking about the award. > > > Farrah and Mike mentioned the SFRA list. Could one of you (or anyone else > who knows) post subscription info for it? Thanks. > > *************** > Heather Whipple > hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu > I loved The Sparrow, despite a few dumb ideas (asteroid mining 20 years from now? Right). The characters were wonderful and the language too. One reason as to why the Tiptree winners have been so diverse (a good thing in my opinion) is that there is some disagreement over what the criteria are/should be for winning. Some people believe the story should essentially go for the best radical feminist story of the year. Others emphasize that the story has to be about "gender bending," ie. new ways of looking at gender. Still others simply argue for the best fantasy or sf story of the year which is clearly feminist or gender-related regardless of how radical its ideas are. When asked to rule on the actual criteria (or so I've been told by a former Tiptree jury member), the founding mothers (Pat Murphy and Karen Joy Fowler) tend to smile enigmatically and say nothing. As far as the SFRA list goes, unfortunately, in order to get on the SFRA list you have to be an SFRA (Science Fiction Research Association) member, a policy I disagree with (but I was out-voted). Membership costs $60 per year (going up to $80 next year). For this you get entry onto the list, subscriptions to 3 journals (Extrapolation, SF Studies, and SFRA Review), a membership directory, inside info on conferences, and (for slightly more money) discount subscriptions to Foundation and the NY Review of SF. If you're interested in membership, contact me off the list. Mike Levy levymm@uwec.edu levym@uwstout.edu From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:49:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA85270 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:24:48 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04120 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:25:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAB133932; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:53:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 12398 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:53:13 -0500 Received: from mail3.dial-up.net (mail3.dial-up.net [196.26.208.35]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA45392 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:51:43 -0500 Received: from auction.griffin.co.za (a5-jhb-64.dial-up.net [196.26.214.64]) by mail3.dial-up.net (8.8.5/8.7.5/ICONfront#1) with ESMTP id WAA03248 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:51:42 +0200 (GMT) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704172051.WAA03248@mail3.dial-up.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:56:43 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jason Griffin Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: ---------- > From: Michael Marc Levy > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes > Date: 15 April 1997 04:13 > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:16:58 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > > > > > > a couple of years ago, one of my students (in my sci-fi class)(taught > > > during summer school) blurted out, "why can't we just read this stuff for > > > fun???!!!" > > > > > > i had to keep my cool, and restrain fantastical thoughts of a > > > mac10convertedsemiautomaticmachinegun. > > > > > > i wanted to ask this person why the hell was she in college? > > > > > > > > I am going to be very rude.....What appalling arrogance! Whilst I understand that > > critical analysis can be interesting and beneficial, most *good* fiction was written > > to be *fun* (using a very broad definition of that word) to read. One of the reasons I > > have little tolerance for much critical work in sf (I am a history lecturer) is the > > priviliging of boring but intellectually complex texts over fascinating and fun but not > > terribly well written ones. (This seriously skews sf syallabi away from any fan > > consensus of the *best*). I have heard English literature professors suggesting > > that critics should concetrate on the texts they do not like, rather than the one's that > > they do, and outside of sf, the most common assumption thrown at sf is that it > > cannot be good because it *is* fun. > > > > > > The starting point of all critical thought is usually either enjoyment or hostility. If we > > do not want to mistake cynicism for critical ability the more we stress the *fun* side > > of the material we read the better. I feel very strongly that the best entry into > > material is to enjoy it. Whilst I accept the latter part of lissa's argument that there > > are depths beyond fun worth plumbing, I still retain more sympathy for the student > > than for lissa. Reading should be fun. > > > > > > Farah. > > > I don't believe that Lissa ever said that reading shouldn't be fun, or > that fun wasn't important in reading, did she? Essentially, as I > interpreted her e-mail (not to put words in her mouth), she just said > that you should think about and understand what you read. For most educated > people this adds to the fun. > > I've been an academic most of my adult life and I've published hundreds > of articles, book reviews, and other pieces of non-fiction. With the > exception of a dozen or so reviews of books that I was assigned by various > editors, however, I don't think I've ever published anything about a book I > didn't like.(I take that back--I did once write a nasty piece about John > Norman). Writing, even academic writing, is not only time consuming but > involves an enormous emotional commitment to the texts you're working on. > Forcing yourself to devote hours to a book, story, or poem you dislike would > be sheer hell. > > In fact book reviewers are much more likely to write negatively about > texts than academics are. Most academic writing assumes the quality of > the text being discussed. If the scholar didn't think the story was good > s/he generally wouldn't have devoted any time to it. My assumption > concerning the academics who you mention as "privileging boring but > intellectually complex texts" is that you find those texts boring but that > the academics involved did not. I'm sure that the students in my SF and > gender class thought I was "privileging boring but intellectually > complex texts" when I assigned The Female Man and The Door into Ocean, > two books I love, when they'd rather have been reading easier stories. > > Whoever that professor was who you heard recommend to people that they > should write about works that they don't like, s/he was an idiot (on this > one topic, at least) and certainly doesn't represent the normal run of > academics, scholars, and critics. > > Mike Levy Hiya all. Well I gotta say I impressed with all the feedback on what I said about critcal reading although in not so fancy a string of words. My first answer is to say that I agree with most peoples arguments. Like the one about doing reviews on a subject that one does not like. To me if one likes SF and Fantasy then one is in a position to review a book in that genre but on the other hand if one likes more of a spy thriller stay away from the reviews for SF or fantasy. Also reading should be fun or atleast one should try to think that the book that one is going to write a review or an essay about is 'fun' because then the analysis is not biased and thought out. I am always or atleast always try to be positive because it makes things easier. My insurance lecture was fond of quotes and gave us one that went something like: If one tries something, one might be given the power to do it. That just says it all for me. I also agree that one should not just always read for pleasure, but when someone reads a SF or fantasy novel you can't always be critical of it, I mean then you are moaning about someone's imagination. That to me is ludicrous. A SF should be enjoyed and read into but not so deeply that you lose the story altogether in the observations Recently I read a review on David Eddings's books. It was quite clear that the person hated fantasy and didn't enjoy reading it. Immediately the person has wasted their time (how many people waste time on things they don't like unless they absolutely have to?) and energy, not only that putting a bad light on the review thereby spoiling it for others Jay "May the mother of all dragons keep you all from harm within the shelter of her wings" Melanie Rawn.... Dragonheart. From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:32:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA292634 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:21:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19175 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:22:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA134052; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:05:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 3492 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:05:09 -0500 Received: from ns.potsdam.edu (ns.potsdam.edu [137.143.110.101]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA71462 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:04:11 -0500 Received: (qmail 26732 invoked by alias); 17 Apr 1997 14:13:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 26721 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1997 14:13:33 -0000 Received: from dial?port?20.potsdam.edu (HELO ?137.143.110.224?) (137.143.110.224) by ns.potsdam.edu with SMTP; 17 Apr 1997 14:13:33 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <19970417141339.26731.qmail@ns.potsdam.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:20:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Judith A. Little" Subject: Utopia/Dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Joel VanLaven wrote: > Perhaps we can tentatively characterize a Feminist Dystopia, then, > as a work that warns of the potential sexist and otherwise harmful > consequences of Traditional or Feminist Utopian thought, and critiques a > particular set of Traditional or Feminist social, political, and moral > theories by depicting a future in which these theoretical assumptions > ground the systemic oppression of one sex by the other. > Judith The question is how to classify a thought-experiment like Tepper's _Gate_to_Women's_Country_ or David Brin's _Glory_Season_ that presents a utopian world and critiques it without putting it in the realm of a dystopia? After all, I would think that _Handmaid's_Tale_ might be a feminist dystopia, but neither of the above comes even close to being similar to that book. -- Joel VanLaven **** My (Judith) Reply: I haven't yet read Brin, but disagree that the society (actually three societies: Warrior's Garrison, Women's Country, Holyland) presented in Tepper's GTWC is a Utopia. The ultimate aim of the leaders of WC might be to create a utopia (world without oppression, violence, and war) but the institutional means they have designed to achieve that end are quite dystopic. One example-- Periodic killing of the warriors through concocted 'wars' with other garrisons counts, for me, as systemic oppression of one sex (male) by the other (female). The whole Garrison-WC set up, after all, was designed by the female founder of WC to test for and then eliminate aggressive males. This is not to say that Tepper views the work as a critique of Utopian non-violence. In fact, I'd argue that she presents WC machinations as 'necessary'; there's plenty of textual evidence for this. This controversy (Is GTWC a utopia or a dystopia) is part of what makes GTWC so very interesting, of course. ********* Joel VanLaven wrote: > What is a Feminist Utopia? Sally Miller Gearhart sets out four > characteristics of Feminist Utopian literature: it "a. contrasts the > present with an envisioned idealized society (separated from the present by > time or space); b. offers a comprehensive critique of present > values/conditions; c. sees men or male institutions as a major cause of > present social ills; and d. presents women not only as at least the equals > of men but also as the sole arbiters of their reproductive functions." In > any case, conditions of full equality between the sexes must hold in a > Feminist Utopian society. Ack. I have problems with that definition. Certainly some feminist utopias see men as "the problem." However, any feminist utopia that includes men with the same biology as they currently have in percentages similar to the current day must not take that position. Why not a much simpler definition? How about: Presents an idealized society which has as an integral, necessary part gender roles that do not put men above women. Another possible requirement is that this society is presented as reasonable for beings "essentially" human. ****** My (Judith) Reply: I don't agree with either Booker's definition of 'Dystopia' or Gearhart's definition of 'Feminist Utopia', but haven't come up with anything much better. It does seem, however, that if not individual men or men as a group, then at least those "male institutions", which overtly or covertly inculcate and celebrate misogyny, ARE the major cause of sexual inequality. Question: Does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that don't portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? Question: How should 'Feminist Utopia' and 'Feminist Dystopia' be defined? Judith ************************************************************************* Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:34:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA185108 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:54:29 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23032 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:56:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA98856; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:41:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4256 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:41:04 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA31462 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:40:02 -0500 Received: from akr-oh1-12.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh1-12.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.44]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA09734 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:26:00 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970417104242.7e1f8b7a@kent.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:26:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Utopia/Dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: At 10:20 AM 4/17/97 -0400, Joel VanLaven wrote: > The question is how to classify a thought-experiment like Tepper's >_Gate_to_Women's_Country_ or David Brin's _Glory_Season_ that presents a >utopian world and critiques it without putting it in the realm of a >dystopia? After all, I would think that _Handmaid's_Tale_ might be a >feminist dystopia, but neither of the above comes even close to being >similar to that book. > To me, utopias and dystopias are only *types* of writing, not genres in and of themselves, and they are types that represent certain extreme limits of the spectrum of sf. As described above, the 2 mentioned works are "simply" sf... ("simply," because we all know how hard it is to define the beast). Simplistically yours, Heather ;) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:40:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA175740 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:31:07 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09929 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:29:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA32924; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:01:42 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7565 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:01:40 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA99902 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:00:33 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA01340; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:56:50 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id MAA10517; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:57:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: "Cocoon" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <970414173726_-401870457@emout09.mail.aol.com> Status: O X-Status: Cocoon is an excellent story, very intelligently written and politically thoughtful. The main character is a gay man, politically "moderate" who believes, in this near future world, as many do now that equality has by and large been acheived and homophobia happens in the past or to people who make too much trouble. He's an investigator, and picks up a case involving a terrorist attack destroying a laboratory working on discovering the biological cause of homosexuality (hate that word) by a corporate biotech co. Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 20:46:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA227246 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:52:56 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00794 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:51:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA37844; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:19:14 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11850 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:19:12 -0500 Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA78706 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:18:13 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA11048 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970417161702_-1334441374@emout15.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:17:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Dowling Subject: Re: Dystopia, Utopia: Janet Dowling's Intro To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Judith - thanks for the intro in to the world of utopias and dystopias. My dictionary didn't help me much- and I hate it when I get a block on a word and can not envisage what it means, or relate it to what I am reading (I still have horrors of the philosophy course whare I had to present a seminar paper on Hume's Dicotomy ((spelling? theres an H in there somewhere)) - and I just did not know what what a dicohtomy (?) was as my dictionary did not help - and its alright - I know now , even if I can't spell it) I'm looking forward to this list - definitely challenging Janet Dowling From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 21:06:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA74250 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:32:41 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13020 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:32:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA89924; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:13:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 3476 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:13:06 -0500 Received: from lemep.eisc.org (lemep.eisc.org [131.183.71.42]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA37880 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:01:52 -0500 Received: from eisc061.eisc.org ([131.183.71.51]) by lemep.eisc.org (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 67-120856) with SMTP id AAA474 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:04:14 -0400 X-Sender: kwillia8@uoft02.utoledo.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970418130214.0072f2bc@uoft02.utoledo.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Williams Subject: non anti men To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Octavia Butler is my answer to Judith. Now who else can I read while I'm waiting for her new book to come out? And thanks Laura Q for this digest coming at me during my oh so non-fictional workday. kate > I don't agree with either Booker's definition of 'Dystopia' or >Gearhart's definition of 'Feminist Utopia', but haven't come up with >anything much better. It does seem, however, that if not individual men or >men as a group, then at least those "male institutions", which overtly or >covertly inculcate and celebrate misogyny, ARE the major cause of sexual >inequality. > Question: Does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that >don't portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? > Question: How should 'Feminist Utopia' and 'Feminist Dystopia' be >defined? > Judith From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 21:13:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA65568 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:10:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28615 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:10:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA75796; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:52:49 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7447 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:52:48 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA45538 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:51:38 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 97 11:51 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:51:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: non anti men To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970418130214.0072f2bc@uoft02.utoledo.edu> Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Kate Williams wrote: > > Question: Does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that > >don't portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? NH: Reading very sketchily, as I am on a break at work, so forgive if my answer doesn't quite jibe with the discussion. Has anyone brought up Ursula Le Guin's _Always Coming Home_? Seems to me that it's a utopian work, with its exploration of societies based on using technology appropriate to one's needs as opposed to tech for tech's sake. Being Le Guin, it's feminist. And I don't think that it portrays men as the 'problem.' Warlike behaviour is problematized, but although men are the oppressors in the warmaking society portrayed in the novel, there are plenty of positive, human male examples in the agrarian society, and even one or two among the belligerents. And it felt to me as though the women were portrayed as human too; they made good and bad choices, had a range of personalities. I really love this book. -nalo > "Sleeping in shifts, or working in shifts, or if you were so tired you couldn't sleep you stared at the television and learned a new language. Whadya say. They learned this. Watched every show. After, feeling confident they'd gained something, a key to the day..." Dionne Brand, _Another Place, Not Here_ From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 21:14:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA132950 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:21:03 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29657 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:20:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA100694; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:06:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7781 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:06:05 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA18136 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:05:40 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Fri, 18 Apr 97 11:05:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:05:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: non anti men To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970418130214.0072f2bc@uoft02.utoledo.edu> Status: RO X-Status: >>Question: does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that don't >>portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Kate Williams wrote: > Octavia Butler is my answer to Judith. Now who else can I read while I'm > waiting for her new book to come out? It seems to me that almost by definition it is the role of utopian and dystopian literature to react against the world as it currently is. Utopian works simply emphasize how things can get better, whereas dystopian works emphasize how things can get worse. Thus, since western civilization is largely a result of male-dominated institutions and since a significant percentage of the problems in western civilization are the result of male violence, it would be hard to imagine a feminist work that wasn't reacting against them. Butler is less explicitly anti-male (or anti-male institutions) than some feminist sf writers, but the critique of male institutions is still there. In Xenogenesis, Parable of the Sower, and most of Butler's other books violence usually comes from males, most often, though not always, white males. In Suzy McKee Charnas's Motherlines and The Furies women show themselves to be capable of violence too, but mostly due to their willingness to copy male methods. Perhaps the best (from a male perspective!) that can be hoped for is that the author of a feminist utopia or dystopia will portray some men as having overcome their conditioning and/or testosterone poisoning, as for example in Woman on the Edge of Time, The Female Man, and Gate to Women's Country, and Butler's books, all of which show a minority of men who are decent human beings. Mike Levy From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 21:19:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA76590 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:19:46 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10765 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:09:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA24364; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:52:49 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9887 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:52:48 -0500 Received: from script.lib.indiana.edu (script.lib.indiana.edu [129.79.32.42]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA70686 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:51:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (hwhipple@localhost) by script.lib.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02494 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:49:27 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:49:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: How about Le Guin's _The Dispossessed_ as a utopia/dystopia that doesn't blame all problems on men? Although it's not a utopia/dystopia story, I want to mention Eleanor Arnason's _Ring of Swords_ in relation to this topic. It does offer another view (but not quite a critique) of gender roles/responsibilities, and there's a matter-of-fact-ness in the culture clash, expressed along the lines of "Why the hell would you want to set things up *that* way?!?" It implies an arbitrariness to "the way things are" that allows for thinking about change without assigning blame. this question also leads to (the larger than the scope of this listserv) questioning of what "feminist" means here. Does a feminist utopia/dystopia have to address gender? If it's about social equality or environmental disasters, and doesn't blame patriarchy or take place in an all-women culture, could it be feminist? Is _The Sparrow_ a feminist work? (these are all open-ended discussion-type questions as far as I'm concerned; I can think of arguments on several sides to this topic. they are not meant to be rhetorical questions) *************** Heather Whipple hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 21:21:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA123150 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:27:45 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17183 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:13:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA36692; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:56:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10928 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:56:08 -0500 Received: from virtu.sar.usf.edu (ghoshal@virtu.sar.usf.edu [131.247.152.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA30038 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:55:26 -0500 Received: from localhost (ghoshal@localhost) by virtu.sar.usf.edu (8.8.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA20476 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:55:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ghoshal@virtu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:55:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mala Ghoshal (NC)" Subject: belated thanks; aliens and Others To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970409233513.3a3f5d7c@kent.edu> Status: O X-Status: tanya--thanks for filling me in on the details of your tiptree thesis. nicola, thanks for posting your _parable_ review. and heather, thanks for sharing your findings about the different depictions of fear and monsters in SF by men and women. it makes a sort of intuitive sense that women might respond to monsters with identification, rather than fear, just because the position of the Other is a familiar one. mala From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 21:29:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA129832 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:25:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA10556 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:27:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA43398; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:15:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 16122 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:15:09 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA82380 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:14:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA27990; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from areuter (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07898; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:13:54 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <33580DB6.1A5D@world.std.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:12:30 -0400 Reply-To: areuter@WORLD.STD.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Anne E. Reuter" Organization: iDirect Subject: "The problem" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Question: Does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that >don't portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? First of all, we should not confuse men with societal institutions. Certainly, western civilization is built on the concept of hierarchy and dominance - over humans, animals, and nature. Even the animal world has the pecking order - social animals arranged in a hierarchical grouping from the strongest to the weakest. Violence has always been used to keep the members at the bottom of the pecking order in line, just as violence is used by challengers to the old order. (This is as true of revolutionaries as young lions killing an old pride leader.) Although historically men have dominated all societal institutions - the church, politics, business, education - today western women are beginning to take their place in the corridors of power. One of the great debates in feminism and among women in the business world is "now that we have some power, should we follow old patterns (dominance, competition, etc.) or establish new ways of behaving and thinking?" One of the earliest points feminism in the 60's made was that no one should expect people to behave a certain way because of their gender -- society has always had strong dominant females as well as weak, fearful men. We are certainly socialized to behave in accordance to cultural expectations regarding gender, but many people -- particularly in an open, western society -- learn in time to become comfortable with the type of person they are, even if it doesn't line up with the ideal of 'manly men' or 'womanly women'. Institutions should always be criticized. Any society has its strengths and weaknesses. Criticizing the tragic shortcomings of a society or a culture should not be equated with criticizing members of the society who have come to terms with cultural expectations and have accepted or undermined the roles society created for them. That being said, men should not identify with societal institutions. The suggestion on the part of people oppressed by western civilization that our society has some limitations should not be equated with "male bashing". This term, like "political correctness" is a ploy to silence those who are oppressed by the system. It is only by questioning and challenging the received wisdom of 'how things have always been' that social change is possible. THose who benefit from the current system are, of course, reluctant to change the system so that others can benefit. I think almost any woman who reads will encounter novels and works of non fiction that are either abrasively or casually anti-female. No one seems to be bothered by these portrayals. But if a female writer creates a novel with strong women and men who are less than perfect (I think of Barbara Pym, who didn't write sci fi, but was a wonderfully feminist writer) then the questions of "male bashing" inevitably arise. What is really scary is that these objections can be raised by gatekeepers in the publishing industry - editors, managers, etc. -- and that can keep some writers from being published or force them to revise their works so they pass the hidden censorship of the gatekeepers. Women and men should always feel free in their personal lives and in their discourse to challenge the assumptions of our society or any other society, and have those hard questions listened to and regarded; not dismissed as "male bashing." From ???@??? Fri Apr 18 21:29:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA69792 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:49:07 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11339 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:51:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA39778; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:45:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 16550 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:45:06 -0500 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (mail.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.51]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA75960 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:44:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA14730 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:44:27 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:44:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, It's interesting to read all these posts on The Female Man, because I think I had every one of the reactions described, each in turn. I think I understand Mike Levy's student who accused him of being hopelessly non-gen-x. I used to feel that feminism was directed to my Mom's generation, in hopes of changing "girls" to "women" in the eyes of both men and women. My generation, of course, no longer suffered from such outdated notions: I played sports, I fully intended a career, my male friends were never condescending, etc. In the last four years, college years, I've become aware of more subtle forms of sexism (just like racism as become less overt). For example, the practice of showing women atheletes as passive beauties or sex-objects, rather than in the powerful and active roles they play. I can still see, though, how women my age might claim that "they themselves have never been victimized by sexism and never will be." In many instances sexism today is less obvious, and therefore perhaps more insidious: a comment by an apparently egalitarian professor on a female student's appearance is hard to justify as sexism rather than something specific to the individual student. The Female Man made me angry at first. Why start fights so blatantly? Isn't there a more effective way to raise consciousnesses? Must she whine? Upon the second reading (I wondered why FM was so popular/talked about) I was mostly impressed by Russ's courage. How can one woman assault so many assumptions at once and expect to get away with it? How can she write a novel that is so obviously a polemic and call it fiction? Upon the third, and last for now, I was impressed by Russ's skill, creativity, wit, and elegant writing. All of these had been mostly obscured by my two earlier gut reactions. (kind of like an inability to enjoy a well-crafted, well-acted film because of some violent scenes...) Now, I can mostly put aside the earlier reactions and dwell in phrasings, in some very quotable notions, and some careful plotting of the J's interactions. However, Mr. Levy and other professors of the Female Man, I'm sorry to say that I doubt I would've reached stage three within the time frame of your class. I most likely would have left with the same frustration your students expressed, and the overwhelming notion that our poor gen x was being oppressed by baggage from previous eras! I do still think the last, but I would change oppressed to "oppressed and enlightened and colored by previous eras." Rarely can I watch my thoughts evolve so blatantly as they seemed to in response to the FM, which i daresay, was part of Russ's point. Andrea Klein From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:18:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25512 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:08:24 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15989 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:10:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA100588; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:01:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17718 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:01:24 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17090 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:59:21 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA05562 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970418225846_-300683747@emout07.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:58:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Responses to Non-Antimale Utopias and Gen X To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-04-16 03:33:02 EDT, you write: << Yes, you're right, but tell this to a room full of female college students >who insist that they themselves have never been victimized by sexism and >never will be >> Women of my generation (the "X" one, like the Files) really do think this. They believe that sexism must always take the same drastic forms. They recognize Ayatollah Khomeini requiring chuddars (the long clothes that cover them up), they recognize arranged marriage, they even recognize Rosie the Riveter being asked to leave so Mr. Rosie can take his riveting job back. They don't realize that potential employers asking about your plans to have a family, construction workers leering at you when you wear a skirt, or the fact that they had a lot of Barbies and no Matchbox cars when they were kids is all sexism, too. It's too subtle for them to notice until someone points it out to them. And I'm willing to guess that the more blatan forms of sexism aren't obvious to women living in those cultures, either, until someone points it out to them. In a message dated 97-04-17 14:29:24 EDT, you write: << Question: Does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that don't portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? >> I took a Utopian Literature course in the English department at the University of South Florida. The course had an historical perspective, beginning with Plato's Republic, and including two feminist utopias, Herland and Ecotopia. I'd suggest either for an historical analysis of sf, but would heartily recommend Ecotopia as a feminist utopia that doesn't regard men or male institutions as the problem, unless you're being extraordinarily broad about male institutions, in which case, it wouldn't be feminist, would it? Hope Cascio From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:19:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA247438 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:25:26 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26483 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:26:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24338; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:51 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2057 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:50 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24472 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:11:34 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:10:39 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id NAA27965; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:11:18 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:11:17 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:33:56 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Yes, the course was historically based. I used the Moon is a Harsh > Mistress intentionally because I wanted something to contrast with the > other, clearly feminist works we were using. I also discussed Heinlein's > odd, but very real "proto-feminism" (or whatever you want to call it). I > think that the bunch of students I was teaching would have hated "Houston > Houston" in part for the same reasons that they hated The Female Man. > They may have been initially impressed by the quality of Tiptree's > writing, but, due to the ending and an unwillingness to think too deeply > about what they read (a glancing reference here to another thread going on > elsewhere on this list!), they would probably have seen the story naively as > nothing more as an anti-male diatribe. > > Mike Heinlein isn't so much protofeminist as "first-wave" feminist (if you accept that the first wave of modern feminism is in the late nine-teenth and early twentieth centuries -- I know a number of historians who woudl start muttering about the seventeenth). Occassionally I think an anti-male diatribe is no bad thing. It might be worth teaching Houston, Houston, next to, say, Philip K. Dick's The Prepersons -- that might solve the "bias" accusations. I accept some of your arguments about boredom, academic study and depth, but it is my duty to encourage the reading to be fun. After students came in complaining about Delany's Time Considered as A Helix of Semi-Precious Stones this week I was very chuffed to have it turn out to be the most productive of the three short stories we were looking at (the other two were not sf) and students left muttering that they must read it again. This ties in with another point. I increasingly teach through short stories because I mainly teach middle-ability history students, who think well but read slowly. That way, I am less likely to bore them, and there are some wonderful short story writers in the field. Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:19:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA87966 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:23:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26439 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:23:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA130550; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:48 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2053 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:47 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA95936 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:30 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:11:31 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) for id NAA27985; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:12:10 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:12:09 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:39:46 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > From: Michael Marc Levy > Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:39:46 -0500 > Subject: Re: The Female Man > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > There is a Mike Levey also on the SFRA list -- are you the same one and am I about > > to embark on the same discussion on Heinlein with you on this list as I am on the > > other? > > > > All teh best > > > > Farah Mendlesohn. > > > Yep, I'm the same Mike Levy (only one e). I'm ubiquitous. If we start > having similar conversations on two different lists though this could > get very confusing, both for us and for the people who are only on one > of the two lists! Martha Bartter may be the only one who can figure out > what we're talking about!. > > Oddly enough, however, there is another Michael Levy who is active both on > the internet and in science fiction. He runs a Jack Vance homepage and people > keep getting us confused. > > Mike Great! I will try to keep conversations distinct. Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:19:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA199060 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:23:23 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26456 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:24:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA78848; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:19:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2100 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:19:04 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA78874 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:18:08 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:17:23 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id NAA28190; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:18:03 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:18:02 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:55:38 -0400 sue hagedorn wrote: > What exactly did they object to in Door Into Ocean? I would love to teach > it, but I've had a bad experience before--I taught More Than Human, and the > students were universally thumbs down--I haven't yet figured out if it was > because it was too dated, not interesting to them, or if my presentation > fell flat. One way I now approach this is to start with the first sf I began with. After all, reading sf is a skill! I would no-more start with Delany that I would start a German class on Goethe. I am currently teaching a course on the American City using short stories from non-sf and sf anthologies (this produced interesting effects when one student pointed out that Delany's Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious stones read like film noir). We started with Edward Bellamy, Hugo Gernsback, Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg. We get to Russ, Delany, Gearhart and other "difficult" writers later in the course. Maybe you already do this? Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:19:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA145204 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:28:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26533 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:30:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA78852; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:23:01 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2120 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:23:00 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA31480 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:22:57 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:22:14 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id NAA28312; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:22:54 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:22:53 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:48:43 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Based on class evaluations and comments during discussion, it [Door into Ocean] was too > complex and too slow, nothing much happened, passive resistance doesn't work > and isn't very believable, suicide is not an acceptable option, and they > couldn't connect with the viewpoint characters. > > Sigh. > > Mike Did you point out its connection to Quaker philosophy? It is interesting to compare it to her Still Falls on Foxfield, to LeGuin's The Eye of the Heron (or is it the Compass Rose, I am not sure) and to Judith Moffat's Penterra. There seems to be a tradition of non-violent resisatance lurking around sf. One of the most sucesful portrayals I know of is Harry Harrison's The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted. I realise that this is sort of off the feminist topic, but *why* is violence both necessary and the cause of squeamishness? And do we as feminists have to discuss only "feminism" (whatever that is). Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:19:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29526 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:30:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26555 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:32:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA63356; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:26:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2128 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:26:05 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA74400 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:25:21 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:24:35 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id NAA28348; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:25:15 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:25:14 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: The Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:03:02 -0500 Martha Bartter wrote: > Robin McKinley does a really powerful number on the "really attractive" > attraction in _Deerskin_ which is our final novel in the fantasy class > this semester. We have some students in the class with a feminist > orientation (Women's Studies minor), and some with a very traditional > outlook on fantasy. They are dissecting the "beauty myth" rather > cogently from that book... > > Have any of you taught/read it? I find it very powerful (more so in a > way than Russ, because it's more psychologically sympathetic), but > absolutely ruthless. We're only just opening the conversation at this > point in class, but I expect things will get even more exciting soon. > > > Martha Bartter > Truman State University A very powerful novel> I won't ever get to teach it I suspect But I have recommended it to a number of people. Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:19:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA199072 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:50:23 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26894 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:52:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA37728; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:42:51 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2203 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:42:49 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA63472 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:42:23 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:41:39 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id NAA28789; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:42:19 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:42:19 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: being new to the list To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: If we are talking about books with the potential to start a fight... have any of you read/taught Gerd Brantenberg's Daughters of Egalia. Me and my ex-tutor, now partner, have been disputing its merits for ten years now. Farah. From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:20:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA122580 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:58:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27096 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:00:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA67178; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:55:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2240 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:55:05 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA95876 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:53:38 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:52:54 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id NAA29018; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:53:35 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:53:34 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Utopia/Dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: The Utopias conversation will go around in circles as long as we do not ask, Utopia for whom? For me, the only acceptable utopia so far, is Delany's Triton which allows for the construction of individual and group utopias in shared space. Farah > > Joel VanLaven wrote: > > Perhaps we can tentatively characterize a Feminist Dystopia, then, > > as a work that warns of the potential sexist and otherwise harmful > > consequences of Traditional or Feminist Utopian thought, and critiques a > > particular set of Traditional or Feminist social, political, and moral > > theories by depicting a future in which these theoretical assumptions > > ground the systemic oppression of one sex by the other. > > Judith > > The question is how to classify a thought-experiment like Tepper's > _Gate_to_Women's_Country_ or David Brin's _Glory_Season_ that presents a > utopian world and critiques it without putting it in the realm of a > dystopia? After all, I would think that _Handmaid's_Tale_ might be a > feminist dystopia, but neither of the above comes even close to being > similar to that book. > > -- Joel VanLaven > > **** My (Judith) Reply: > I haven't yet read Brin, but disagree that the society (actually > three societies: Warrior's Garrison, Women's Country, Holyland) presented > in Tepper's GTWC is a Utopia. The ultimate aim of the leaders of WC might > be to create a utopia (world without oppression, violence, and war) but the > institutional means they have designed to achieve that end are quite > dystopic. One example-- Periodic killing of the warriors through concocted > 'wars' with other garrisons counts, for me, as systemic oppression of one > sex (male) by the other (female). The whole Garrison-WC set up, after all, > was designed by the female founder of WC to test for and then eliminate > aggressive males. This is not to say that Tepper views the work as a > critique of Utopian non-violence. In fact, I'd argue that she presents WC > machinations as 'necessary'; there's plenty of textual evidence for this. > This controversy (Is GTWC a utopia or a dystopia) is part of what makes > GTWC so very interesting, of course. > ********* > > Joel VanLaven wrote: > > What is a Feminist Utopia? Sally Miller Gearhart sets out four > > characteristics of Feminist Utopian literature: it "a. contrasts the > > present with an envisioned idealized society (separated from the present by > > time or space); b. offers a comprehensive critique of present > > values/conditions; c. sees men or male institutions as a major cause of > > present social ills; and d. presents women not only as at least the equals > > of men but also as the sole arbiters of their reproductive functions." In > > any case, conditions of full equality between the sexes must hold in a > > Feminist Utopian society. > > Ack. I have problems with that definition. Certainly some feminist > utopias see men as "the problem." However, any feminist utopia that > includes men with the same biology as they currently have in percentages > similar to the current day must not take that position. Why not a much > simpler definition? How about: > > Presents an idealized society which has as an integral, necessary part > gender roles that do not put men above women. > > Another possible requirement is that this society is presented as > reasonable for beings "essentially" human. > > ****** My (Judith) Reply: > I don't agree with either Booker's definition of 'Dystopia' or > Gearhart's definition of 'Feminist Utopia', but haven't come up with > anything much better. It does seem, however, that if not individual men or > men as a group, then at least those "male institutions", which overtly or > covertly inculcate and celebrate misogyny, ARE the major cause of sexual > inequality. > Question: Does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that > don't portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? > Question: How should 'Feminist Utopia' and 'Feminist Dystopia' be > defined? > Judith > > > > ************************************************************************* > Dr. Judith Ann Little Philosophy Department SUNY-Potsdam > Potsdam, NY 13676-2294 littleja@potsdam.edu > > *********************************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:20:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA275348 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:03:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27264 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:05:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA95962; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:57:50 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2254 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:57:49 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA133290 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:57:02 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:56:17 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id NAA29067; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:56:57 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:56:56 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Deerskin (was Re: The Female Man) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:47:56 -0400 From: Mike Resnick Reply-To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT Subject: RIP: Sam Moskowitz Sam Moskowitz, chairman of the very first Worldcon, author of such studies of the field as EXPLORERS OF THE INFINITE and SEEKERS OF INFINITY, author of the very first history of fandom (THE IMMORTAL STORM), and generally acknowledged to sf's first historian, died last night as the result of a massive heart attack suffered on April 13. -- Mike Resnick From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:20:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA122462 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:08:22 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27372 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA63378; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:05:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2307 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:05:01 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA74560 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:04:46 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:04:01 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id OAA29305; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:04:41 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:04:40 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: non anti men To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:05:35 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > >>Question: does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that don't > >>portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? > > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Kate Williams wrote: > > > Octavia Butler is my answer to Judith. Now who else can I read while I'm > > waiting for her new book to come out? > > It seems to me that almost by definition it is the role of utopian and > dystopian literature to react against the world as it currently is. Utopian > works simply emphasize how things can get better, whereas dystopian works > emphasize how things can get worse. Thus, since western civilization is > largely a result of male-dominated institutions and since a significant > percentage of the problems in western civilization are the result of > male violence, it would be hard to imagine a feminist work that wasn't > reacting against them. > > Butler is less explicitly anti-male (or anti-male institutions) than some > feminist sf writers, but the critique of male institutions is still > there. In Xenogenesis, Parable of the Sower, and most of Butler's other > books violence usually comes from males, most often, though not always, > white males. In Suzy McKee Charnas's Motherlines and The Furies women > show themselves to be capable of violence too, but mostly due to their > willingness to copy male methods. > > Perhaps the best (from a male perspective!) that can be hoped for is that > the author of a feminist utopia or dystopia will portray some men as > having overcome their conditioning and/or testosterone poisoning, as for > example in Woman on the Edge of Time, The Female Man, and Gate to Women's > Country, and Butler's books, all of which show a minority of men who are > decent human beings. > > Mike Levy Samuel Delany's Triton is utopian, feminist and not anti-men, but as Mike says, the reality is that they *are* the problem. Even those women who make it to positions of power tend to do so by taking on male values, so it changes little. Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:20:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA154092 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:14:16 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27451 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:14:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA39740; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:07:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2323 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:07:01 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28926 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:06:54 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:05:53 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id OAA29348; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:06:34 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:06:33 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:49:27 -0500 Heather Whipple wrote: > How about Le Guin's _The Dispossessed_ as a utopia/dystopia that doesn't > blame all problems on men? > > Although it's not a utopia/dystopia story, I want to mention Eleanor > Arnason's _Ring of Swords_ in relation to this topic. It does offer > another view (but not quite a critique) of gender roles/responsibilities, > and there's a matter-of-fact-ness in the culture clash, expressed along > the lines of "Why the hell would you want to set things up *that* way?!?" > It implies an arbitrariness to "the way things are" that allows for > thinking about change without assigning blame. > > this question also leads to (the larger than the scope of this listserv) > questioning of what "feminist" means here. Does a feminist > utopia/dystopia have to address gender? If it's about social equality or > environmental disasters, and doesn't blame patriarchy or take place in an > all-women culture, could it be feminist? Is _The Sparrow_ a feminist > work? (these are all open-ended discussion-type questions as far as I'm > concerned; I can think of arguments on several sides to this topic. they > are not meant to be rhetorical questions) > > *************** > Heather Whipple > hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Apologies to anyone on the SFRA list as well who has already heard this. Le Guin's The Dispossesses is not a feminist utopia. Instead, it is a classic "when the revolution comes everything will be ok dearie". It is quite sexist and from a radical feminist point of view could be seen as ignoring the real difficulties in favour of trivial wrangling between masculinists. Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:20:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18920 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:18:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27526 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:18:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA130364; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:11:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 2345 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:11:05 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA86302 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:10:17 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:08:03 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id OAA29424; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:08:43 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:08:43 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Responses to Non-Antimale Utopias and Gen X To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: > << Question: Does anyone know of any feminist utopian works that > don't portray men or male institutions as "the problem"? >> > > I took a Utopian Literature course in the English department at the > University of South Florida. The course had an historical perspective, > beginning with Plato's Republic, and including two feminist utopias, Herland > and Ecotopia. I'd suggest either for an historical analysis of sf, but would > heartily recommend Ecotopia as a feminist utopia that doesn't regard men or > male institutions as the problem, unless you're being extraordinarily broad > about male institutions, in which case, it wouldn't be feminist, would it? > > Hope Cascio You could also try Kim Stanley Robinson's Pacific Edge. Farah From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:21:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA154014 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:25:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03816 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:27:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA133274; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:19:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4242 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:19:02 -0500 Received: from ns2.snni.com (root@ns2.snni.com [165.113.174.13]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA43934 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:08:15 -0500 Received: from emily.snni.com (ppp107.snni.com [165.113.174.207]) by ns2.snni.com (8.8.0/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA08183 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:09:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <199704191709.KAA08183@ns2.snni.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:06:00 -0800 Reply-To: Emily@EXO.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Emily Hackbarth Organization: very little Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: > Apologies to anyone on the SFRA list as well who has already heard > this. Le Guin's The Dispossesses is not a feminist utopia. Instead, > it is a classic "when the revolution comes everything will be ok > dearie". It is quite sexist and from a radical feminist point of > view could be seen as ignoring the real difficulties in favour of > trivial wrangling between masculinists. > > Farah > Care to elaborate? Emily Hackbarth emily@exo.com http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html "In a sheet of paper is contained the infinite." Lu Chi From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:21:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA147914 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:43:26 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06137 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:44:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA67302; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:37:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 5375 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:37:02 -0500 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA67086 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:36:27 -0500 Received: by halcyon.com id AA29247 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:36:21 -0700 Message-ID: <199704191836.AA29247@halcyon.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:36:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Egalia's Daughters To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: _Egalia's Daughters: A Satire of the Sexes_ by Gerd Brantenberg is the finest example of societal sex-role reversal I've ever come across. Unlike most sex-role reversals in fiction, this one is actually feminist, & is so detailed & exact in its reversals that wonderfully exposes the workings of sex-marked hierarchies in many areas of personal & public lives. When I read it in 1986 (The Seal Press put out an edition of it in 1985), it made very plain how most sex-role reversals are written with an anti-feminist intention of showing how awful it is for women to have power by basically exploiting widespread fears (among both women & men) of the power of Mother, always so much nastier than the power of Father. Brantenberg does not avoid the power of Mother, but rationalizes it, making it correspond to our ideas of Father's power, & projects onto the male characters the kind of power we associate with Mother. Having said that, I think I want to reread it. Sometimes its salutary to go back & get newly abraded by the edges that get just all too dull & blunt as they recede in one's memory. Timmi Duchamp From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:22:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA264004 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:03:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13358 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:04:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA130224; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:55:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7832 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:55:07 -0500 Received: from irc.intergate.bc.ca (root@[207.34.179.6]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA133166 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:44:43 -0500 Received: from lisahome (pm4s2.intergate.bc.ca [205.206.192.196]) by irc.intergate.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10023 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704192244.PAA10023@irc.intergate.bc.ca> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:00:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lisa To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: In response to the question about SF books that don't portray men as "the problem" has anyone read Leona Gom's "The Y Chromosome"? I think in many ways it is not anti-male as it points out many problems which would still exist in institutions and society even if there were no men around. If you haven't read it check it out. A very intriguing book written by a non-SF author. lisa From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:22:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA115406 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:45:01 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09514 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:44:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA92532; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:35:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 6628 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:35:04 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA82324 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:34:29 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Sat, 19 Apr 97 15:34:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:48:43 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > Based on class evaluations and comments during discussion, it > [Door into Ocean] was too > > complex and too slow, nothing much happened, passive resistance > doesn't work > > Mike > > Did you point out its connection to Quaker philosophy? It is > interesting to compare it to her Still Falls on Foxfield, to LeGuin's The > Eye of the Heron (or is it the Compass Rose, I am not sure) and to > Judith Moffat's Penterra. There seems to be a tradition of non-violent > resisatance lurking around sf. One of the most sucesful portrayals I > know of is Harry Harrison's The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted. > > I realise that this is sort of off the feminist topic, but *why* is violence > both necessary and the cause of squeamishness? And do we as > feminists have to discuss only "feminism" (whatever that is). > > Farah > Between them, Slonczewski and Moffett are sort of a two woman Quaker SF sub-genre all by themselves, aren't they. Yes, we talked aobut Slonczewski's Quakerism, and I brought in a colleague of mine who is a Quaker (also a Zen Buddhist and a Jew simultaneously, but that's another story) to discuss Quakerism and its rather successful history of passive resistance. My favorite scene in Slonczewski's books, by the way, occurs in The Wall Around Eden. In it a biker gang bent on trouble breaks into a church where a group of Quakers are holding a meeting. By chance a severely retarded young woman is standing near the back door holding a baby and, when the bikers break in, she hands the baby to the head bad guy who's so totally freaked out by the baby and not knowing what to do with it that it totally defuses the dangerus situation. I don't know how believable the scene is, but it works just great in the book. Farah, I wish I'd been able to take your history courses as history minor. All we got to read were G.R. Elton, C.V. Wedgewood, Trevor-Roper and the like. Mike Levy From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:23:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA39870 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:23:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA16625 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:25:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA133046; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:15:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 8547 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:15:06 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA70642 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:14:33 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA05089 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970419211402_-1301225104@emout08.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:14:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Hope Cascio Subject: Re: Utopia/Dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-04-19 10:26:55 EDT, you write: << The Utopias conversation will go around in circles as long as we do not ask, Utopia for whom? >> Mike Resnick's Kirinyaga stories illustrate your question. Kirinyaga is an engineered planet for a traditional Kenyan utopia. Problem is, it's not utopic for some people who live there, such as a little girl who is forbidden access to education. Hope Cascio From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:24:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA75810 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:20:18 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27248 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:22:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA66736; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:16:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 14492 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:16:03 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA43972 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:15:38 -0500 Received: from akr-oh1-09.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh1-09.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.41]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA08610 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 08:01:43 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970420081840.35178f1e@kent.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 08:01:43 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Nebula Awards To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: >Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:36:50 -0400 (EDT) >Reply-To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu >Sender: owner-iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu >From: RESNICK@delphi.com >To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu >Subject: Nebula Awards >X-VMS-To: INTERNET"iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu" >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >1997 Nebula Awards: > >Short story: "A Birthday", by Esther Friesner > >Novelette: "Lifeboat on a Burning Sea", by Bruce Holland Rogers > >Novella: "Da Vinci Rising", by Jack Dann > >Novel: SLOW RIVER, by Nicola Griffith > > >Grandmaster: Jack Vance > > Wheee... Congratulations, Nicola!!! hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:25:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA111916 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:59:05 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01420 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:01:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA34674; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:52:58 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 15554 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:52:57 -0500 Received: from script.lib.indiana.edu (script.lib.indiana.edu [129.79.32.42]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA49346 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:52:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (hwhipple@localhost) by script.lib.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06142 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:49:58 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:49:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199704191709.KAA08183@ns2.snni.com> Status: RO X-Status: I am not on the SFRA list and don't know what was discussed there (are many people on both lists? Is repetition a problem?) so I echo Emily's request to Farrah for elaboration on the statement that _The Dispossessed_ is unequivocally NOT feminist. While I wouldn't say it is a perfect feminist utopia, it does question some sexist assumptions. It is primarily interested in exploring anarchy and not feminism, but this comes back to the point I raised in my earlier post, that it is not a simple thing to determine what is feminist and what isn't (i.e. seems to me that anarchy and some feminisms share some common goals). The book's subtitle, "An Ambiguous Utopia," suggests that what may be revolutionary (or feminist), for one person/planet may not be for another--as well as addressing up front (so to speak) that it might not be utopia at all. TD explores structures of power, and while it also contains some essentialism and does also portray a sexist society, I would still argue that that focus on power relations and property politics does make it at least partly feminist. I certainly don't see that Le Guin believes "when the revolution comes everything will be ok"; her point is exactly the opposite--that revolution needs to be an on-going process. The problems on Anarres are precisely *because* people have become complacent. *************** Heather Whipple hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu > > Apologies to anyone on the SFRA list as well who has already heard > > this. Le Guin's The Dispossesses is not a feminist utopia. Instead, > > it is a classic "when the revolution comes everything will be ok > > dearie". It is quite sexist and from a radical feminist point of > > view could be seen as ignoring the real difficulties in favour of > > trivial wrangling between masculinists. > > > > Farah > > > > Care to elaborate? > > Emily Hackbarth > emily@exo.com > http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html > "In a sheet of paper is contained the infinite." > Lu Chi > From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:25:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA234976 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:25:19 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05283 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:27:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA82726; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:13:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17010 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:13:01 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA41068 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:11:33 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA05454 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07208 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Farah wrote: >I am going to be very rude.....What appalling arrogance! Whilst I >understand that >critical analysis can be interesting and beneficial, most *good* fiction >was written >to be *fun* (using a very broad definition of that word) to read. One of >the reasons I >have little tolerance for much critical work in sf (I am a history >lecturer) is the >priviliging of boring but intellectually complex texts over fascinating >and fun but not >terribly well written ones. (This seriously skews sf syallabi away from any fan >consensus of the *best*). I have heard English literature professors >suggesting >that critics should concetrate on the texts they do not like, rather than >the one's that >they do, and outside of sf, the most common assumption thrown at sf is that it >cannot be good because it *is* fun. well..hmmm. i guess you didn't finish reading my message. because this is exactly how i do feel about it. it *is* fun. and i wish we could all read for *only* fun. but we cannot... we need to have fun *while* we critique. relax. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:25:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA234996 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:25:19 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05281 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:27:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA59958; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:21:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17048 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:21:02 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA41062 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:19:20 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA06227 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:19:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06258 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:35:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: sue wrote: >Most of us in academia would like students to leave the class with more >than they came in with. A critical/analytical view can serve them well >throughout their lives. They ARE in college, not a reading circle. They >can have fun while they're learning (I don't know any good teacher who >wouldn't rather have fun with the class)--but it does take work--and so >there will always be some grumbles! Until students learn that expanding >their minds CAN be fun, I also wonder what they're doing in college other >than marking time--or avoiding the world of work. Let's hope the >revelation hits them soon so that the time in higher education isn't mostly >wasted. yes. exactly so. i suppose i should have hit the smile and joke key on my machine, because i obviously didn't make myself clear. you, perhaps of all those on this list, (because we know eachother), know that i teach a class that is fun, that doesn't rely on a "lecture" pedagogy, and that i also am an undergrad advisor because i think my role (as all teachers) is to help students STAY IN THE CLASSROOM FOR LIFE. this means i do have to be an entertainer, i have to find books that are intellectually provoking (ie, FUN) and that i have to MOTIVATE rather than teach. i also know, as do all of us i'm sure, that many students feel that FUN = NO WORK. i am showing them that this is not the case. 95% find out that critique is work and it is fun. 5%, perhaps, aren't at that stage of life. (stage, maturity, want... i don't know what it is.) -lissa if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:26:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA48720 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:45:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05762 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:47:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA130024; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:39:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17116 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:39:03 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA134078 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:37:56 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA08290 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18181 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:53:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezesRE: my own take on this To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Jo Ann wrote: It may be hard to take in when a student says "I thought >this was supposed to be fun," there could be a gazillion reasons why they do >not understand yet the importance of applying critical analysis to a work of >science fiction, but it wastes a lot of energy to even try to figure out. My >job I hope will be to guide a classroom of students toward an understanding >of a particular genre, not to argue the fun out of a course text. yes, thank you. i see what you mean. i think that teaching SF (or should i say, motivating SF)(because i think that on the college level, there's no such thing as teaching per se, since the students need to be the one's that teach themselves... i can only motivate)(hopefully by entertaining means that are also quite critical) is really new. reading sf has only been for fun. and certainly, reading fem sf is quite quite new. in my last writing (which offended so many, unfortunately), i was trying to show my absolute dispair for those students who complain about losing the fun of a book. because i know what they are saying --- i, too, was distraught when i went from books with pictures to books sans. i remember being upset that, after a cultural critique class, that all tv commercials lost their joy, because i was able to "read" deeper meanings... which, we know, are not for entertainment, eye-joy. i remember reading _Momaday_ for fun, and loving and crying over it. and then i remember reading _Momaday_ in a critical setting...and loving it more deeply, as i found so many more subtle and intricate aspects about it to love. but while i have despaired and grieved (for the oncoming loss of some innocence in reading) i know that i can use this classroom occurrence for the best. reading and critical analysis IS fun. alas. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:26:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA235964 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:49:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05847 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:51:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA31296; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:42:52 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17157 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:42:51 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA93168 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:41:39 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA08568 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA15262 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:57:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: The Female Man & critical reading To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Janice Dawley wrote; >Of course, it's not very convincing to tell someone they're being oppressed >if they simply don't feel that way. But speaking personally, it took me some >time to develop as a feminist. I loved The Female Man when I read it the >summer after graduating from college. I might not have felt the same way if >it had been assigned reading. yes, this is part of what i've been trying to discuss in my interests of critical reading.... what is it, for you, (et al), that changes in a text when you read for an assignment? -lissa if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:26:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20264 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:05:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06323 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:07:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA49358; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:55:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17284 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:55:03 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA49260 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:53:13 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA09674 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA16443 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:08:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: >I think it is a mistake to expect that it is entirely within your control >(and therefore your responsibility) to make sure each student in your class >properly appreciates, is engaged by, or even likes, every book you introduce. >And (the eternally optimistic teacher here), you never know what is sinking >in and will surface later to produce change well beyond your immediate >influence. i, for one, would be a liar if i told you that i didn't care if my students liked my class and the books. i desperately want all of my students to purchase all of their texts in hard back to carry around, sniff, and fondle. i also find it a bit odd that more students at this big ol' technical university are not more into sf. ideas? one of my collegues suggests the old addage/idea: math is for boys, and reading is for girls. yechchchch. (so fem sf should be for everyone, under that ol stereotype, eh?) -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:26:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA259774 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:24:06 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08506 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:25:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA37876; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:19:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 18498 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:19:03 -0500 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA82424 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:18:17 -0500 Received: by halcyon.com id AA08770 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:18:14 -0700 Message-ID: <199704202018.AA08770@halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:18:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: What do (student) readers want (or need)-- long To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Farah Mendlesohn wrote: >Heinlein isn't so much protofeminist as "first-wave" feminist (if you >accept that the first wave of modern feminism is in the late >nine-teenth and early twentieth centuries -- I know a number of >historians who woudl start muttering about the seventeenth). Try Christine de Pisan, ca.1400, _The Book of the City of Ladies_: it's an explicit feminist attack on Aristotelian-based sexism, & imagines-- allegorically-- the building of a city for ladies whose walls & foundations are the bold brave women of history (as well as some current women, including a woman teaching (behind a curtain) law students in Bologna. >I accept some of your arguments about boredom, academic study >and depth, but it is my duty to encourage the reading to be fun. After >students came in complaining about Delany's Time Considered as A >Helix of Semi-Precious Stones this week I was very chuffed to have it >turn out to be the most productive of the three short stories we were >looking at (the other two were not sf) and students left muttering that >they must read it again. Let me add another dimension to this discussion about young people & how they respond to feminist sf (in this discussion, largely within the context of the classroom). I found Andrea's post helpful & fascinating; it confirmed what academic friends of mine teaching history have to say about their students' assumptions about feminism as retro & unnecessary. It raises the point that what readers (of any age) need & want at any given moment determines how receptive to being provoked & stimulated by anything they might read. When I first encountered feminist writings (though not fiction) in the early 1970s, though the first stage involved intense pain (followed swiftly by anger & determination), I could not resist going through that painful stage required by feminism, because what I read helped me to understand certain trainwrecks that had been making havoc of my life. (For example, there were no words for sexual discrimination in 1968, when I desperately needed such a concept.) It seems that many young women today don't feel a pressing bewilderment for explaining what is happening to them. The explanations provided by the culture at large (& whatever subcultures they belong to) are apparently "fitting" the puzzles of their experience-- so far. The second point I wanted to raise is that obviously not all young women are going to feel satisfied by the images & protocols for understanding that are floated on television, in film, & by other sources of mainstream culture. For these women, feminist sf is going to not only help them make a certain sense of their experience, but allow them imaginative expansion & a different license for pleasure in violation of the status quo. I realize the discussion has been mostly about the difficulty of teaching students critical skills, & don't intend to suggest that that isn't important (I myself am incapable of reading anything without an immediate eye to its structural intricacies). But I want to quote Dorothy Allison here, writing about her reading of sf in general (but feminist sf most often) for affirmation & recognition of her own difference as a young lesbian in desperate need of finding breathing (& thinking) space. Though she's not of Generation X, there's no reason not to think that this old, old problem for young lesbians, especially adolescents, is not still typical: "The honest-to-god truth is that I spent most of my adolescence-- and I'll admit it, even my twenties-- jacking off to science fiction books, marvelous, impossible stories full of struggle and angst. "As a girl I read Robert Heinlein's _Podkayne of Mars_, C.J. Moore's _Jirle of Joiry_. the Telzey books by James Schmidt, _More Than Human_ by Theodore Sturgeon, and all of the Alyx stories by Joanna Russ. Each and every one of them stayed with me long after I put the books down. Their worlds were the worlds where I went to get away from the one in which I had been born, and those worlds were lush, adventuresome, scary, and deliciously satisfying. I'd buckle Jirel's sword across my hip and wipe the demon's kiss from my lips, mourning the lover I had been forced to murder but borne by up by pride and outrage. I would turn my cat-calm eyes on the huge dangerous creatures that captured me and wanted to use me like the Aliens were always doing to Telzey, and like her I would outplot the bad guys and walk away triumphant in the end. Later there were the Joan Vinge books, C.J. Cherryh, Vonda McIntyre, Susy [sic] McKee Charnas, and Elizabeth A. Lynn. I became the child thief captured and flogged in McIntyre's novel, the riding woman cleaning my knife while listening to the runaway slave who had walked to the end of the world, one of those fascinating perverts Elizabeth Lynn seemed to understand so well... Justice happened in those books-- justive, revenge, vindication, compassionate philosophy of life. I am as much a creature of those books as I am of my family, my region, my sexual desires. I am the wages of pulp." She talks then about reading Joanna Russ's essay, "Pornography By Women, For Women, With Love," and notes, "After reading Russ's essay I began to reconsider what my life as a teenage science fiction fan had really been about. I found myself thinking of the levels of meaning I took from science fiction-- not just the straightforward adventures, but the symbolic and political lessons I abstracted. After all, I ate up science fiction books like candy, until I was living more in the worlds of fantasy than in the small Southern town where I was born. Yes, the women and girls in those books had aventures. They had great passions, terrors, successes, and narrow escapes. Their minds were working constantly and almost never in the ways traditional fiction told me women thought. They weren't wondering what the men and boys thought of them; they were worrying about survival..." There's more of the above, & then she talks about Russ's _Picnic on Paradise_, & Delany's _Babel 17_, & "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones"-- "the first story I read that actually had recognizable, almost conetmporary, gay characters. ... the story made me thinking about my own romantic imagery... when I finally admitted to myself why I so loved that story; how I saw myself in it, more than my erotic imagination shifted. My everyday human-to-human relationsips were altered as well. I began to think that perhaps it might be worth the risk to touch another being, to allow them to touch me back." I extracted all the above quotes from "Puritans, Perverts, and Feminists," which can be found in her collection essays _Skin:Talking about Sex, Class, & Literature." Timmi From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:26:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA197664 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:38:55 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07190 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:38:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA52568; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:16:28 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 17840 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:16:26 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA41032 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:16:01 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA11748 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05585 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: intro; Lathe; Sparrow; Tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Heather: is this the full list of Tiptree award winners? if not, do you have it to copy onto this email list? i'm also interested in other award winning lists (ie, Nebula)? > > 1997: _The Sparrow_ by Mary Doria Russell > "Mountain Ways" by Ursula Le Guin > 1996: _Waking the Moon_ by Elizabeth Hand > _The Memoirs of Elizabeth Frankenstein_ by Theodore Roszak > 1995: _Larque on the Wing_ by Nancy Springer > "The Matter of Seggri" by Ursula Le Guin > 1994: _Ammonite_ by Nicola Griffith > 1993: _China Mountain Zhang_ by Maureen F. McHugh > 1992: _A Woman of the Iron People_ by Eleanor Arnason > _White Queen_ by Gwyneth Jones > >Farrah and Mike mentioned the SFRA list. Could one of you (or anyone else >who knows) post subscription info for it? Thanks. > >*************** >Heather Whipple >hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu thanks, lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:26:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA280174 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:15:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08153 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:13:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA71408; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:02:51 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 18372 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:02:50 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23848 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:02:17 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17006 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01782 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:17:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: hi all: when i first joined this list, i joined it to find out about what i should read. i have been reading and reading and reading.. and (no one in my family knows yet, thank goodness) have spent most (if not all, as of this morning) of my tax returns (big because of the december birth) on the sci fi books that you all suggested. thus, i blame you all for my current economic status. however, i had to stop reading new texts to learn the questions. i found two books by a former teacher, here at Va Tech: Marlene Barr. the texts: _Lost in Space_ and _Feminist Fabulation_. i read them both, and now have fresh, inquisitive eyes to use when i return to the fiction. my questions to you all are: has anyone else out there read Barr's books? thoughts? and.... does anyone know where she went? i knew her for a whopping 2 months, fell in love with her way of thinking, and *poof* she was outtahere before i ever read her fantastic essays, hopefully she's not lost in space. i'd love to talk to her about these essays. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:27:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA182754 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:58:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12995 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:58:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA31392; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:51:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19912 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:51:07 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA133248 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:50:10 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 97 18:50 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:50:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezesRE: my own take on this To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: Lissa, for the record, I took your post as an expression of frustration, but was mindful that it was not something you had said aloud to your student. So no offense taken here. -nalo From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:27:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA182750 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:58:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13079 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:00:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA67264; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:52:54 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19918 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:52:52 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA72002 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:52:33 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 20 Apr 97 18:52 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:52:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > > i also find it a bit odd that more students at this big ol' technical > university are not more into sf. ideas? NH: Do you know what they do read? -nalo From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:27:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27264 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:30:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16020 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:32:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA74094; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:25:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20715 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:25:04 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA66580 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:23:49 -0500 Received: from akr-oh1-14.ix.netcom.com (BPnthr@akr-oh1-14.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.46]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA45729 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:09:55 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970420202649.3a6712ea@kent.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:09:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: feminist non-utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Anybody read _Nearly Roadkill_, by Sullivan and Bornstein? (1996, High Risk Books). Really funny, wry gender-bender (and genre-benre... ;) Heather hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:28:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA69864 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:53:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18691 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:54:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA92466; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:47:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 21491 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:47:03 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA129816 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:46:26 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23546; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:48:38 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:48:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: [snip] > i also find it a bit odd that more students at this big ol' technical > university are not more into sf. ideas? one of my collegues suggests the > old addage/idea: math is for boys, and reading is for girls. yechchchch. > (so fem sf should be for everyone, under that ol stereotype, eh?) Yech indeed. It boggles my mind how this could be the case, even if only in a societal context. Unfortunately, I see this often enough in my own life. I just joined a sci-fi reading group at the local Borders. There were three women, me, and the man that worked there that was in charge of the group. Note that this was sci-fi in general, not even feminist sci-fi. It seemes that one societal imbalance (women in book groups) overcame another (men and sci-fi). Perhaps that adage should be more like: reading is NOT for boys and math is NOT for girls, so feminist sci-fi is for NO traditional people. -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:28:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA211168 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:23:42 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA19833 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:25:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA99422; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:17:59 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22086 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:17:57 -0500 Received: from puma.macbsd.com (qmailr@puma.macbsd.com [198.82.200.98]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA48200 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:17:29 -0500 Received: (qmail 19692 invoked by uid 69); 21 Apr 1997 02:17:22 -0000 References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 Message-ID: <19970420221717.61669@puma.macbsd.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:17:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Another gender observation To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: > I just joined a sci-fi reading group at the local Borders. > There were three women, me, and the man that worked there that was in > charge of the group. This is straying a bit from the topic, but I feel compelled to point out that this is not a terribly uneven balance. In fact, it's about as balanced as an odd number of people (5) can be (without getting creative, OK? ;-). When I was in my first two years of high school, I was in the "advanced" english classes--about 15 or 20 students. I was the only male. That's a tad more unbalanced. Back to FEMINISTSF ;-): Does anyone have suggestions for feminist "hard sf"? Is that oxymoronic? How does one separate feminism from the masculinization of the female? My wife and I watched the _Alien_ movies this weekend (following the discussion on this list), and while the human society in the movies is more gender-equal than ours, neither of us saw either of the first two movies as feminist. We did only watch the first two movies. Is the third worth seeing? Pax, -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:28:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA275248 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:38:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA26313 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:40:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA130548; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:33:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25584 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:33:01 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA75082 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:31:37 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 00:31:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:31:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: Lissa, I don't know where Marlene Barr went after Va Tech, but I do know that she's going to be at the SFRA conference in Long Beach this June. She's a fine critic, though I wish she were a better prose stylist. Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:28:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA111936 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:38:22 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA26315 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:40:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA117230; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:37:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25622 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:37:04 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA117104 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:36:45 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 00:36:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Another gender observation To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <19970420221717.61669@puma.macbsd.com> Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Allen Briggs wrote: > > Back to FEMINISTSF ;-): Does anyone have suggestions for feminist > "hard sf"? Is that oxymoronic? How does one separate feminism from > the masculinization of the female? > -allen > For feminist hard-sf try Slow River by Nicola Griffith, which just won the Nebula and which will tell you everything you could possibly want to know about the science and technology of sewage disposal (I kid you not). It's wonderful. Also check out Joan Slonczewski's The Door into Ocean and Daughter of Elysium (she's an internationally known bacteriologist) and Catherine Asaro's first two novels (she's a physicist). Also Nancy Kress's Beggar's trilogy. Mike Levy From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:29:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA94416 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:24:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06545 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:23:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31826; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:07:54 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 28985 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:07:53 -0500 Received: from rizzo.infobahnos.com (rizzo.infobahnos.com [205.236.175.6]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA89048 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:07:32 -0500 Received: from ppp-0119.infobahnos.com (ppp-0119.infobahnos.com [204.19.114.29]) by rizzo.infobahnos.com (8.7.6/A/UX 3.1) with SMTP id JAA09026 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:07:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: maddog@rizzo.infobahnos.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704211307.JAA09026@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:07:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hi: I'm fairly new to the list and although I enjoy reading you all, I don't have much time to post. Now I'd like your help. I teach French to English translation part-time at Concordia University. The course I generally teach is the introductory course, so there is little focus on translation theory or history, which is covered in other courses. In addition to the practical work we do in the course, I generally make my students read one book on translation theory. I have been thinking of trying something new next fall and having them read science fiction books or short stories which discuss translation. I am familiar with the first two Native tongue books and I believe I read on this list a couple of weeks that there is a third one, for which I would be grateful for a reference. What I would like to know is if any of you could give me authors and titles which would be appropriate. If the material is feminist it would be even better, since the large majority of translation students and translators are also women. Anyway, any help will be appreciated. Sheryl C. Montreal, Quebec From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 11:05:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA123144 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:34:52 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01942 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:32:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA89426; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:21:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 30490 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:21:05 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA107586 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:20:12 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA02836; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:20:14 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id KAA22521; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:20:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Feminist "hard sf" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: The question of whether "hard sf" can be feminist, or is it oxymoronic, all depends on what you mean by "hard sf", of course. Everything is a question of language. If you mean highly technological sf, then there are some feminist hard sf around. In addition to Nicola's Slow River (congrats on the award Nicola), I would also recommend Melissa Scott's Trouble and Her Friends. One of the things I love about Trouble is Scott's resistance to the usual isolated individualism in most high-tech-future or cyberpunk sf. In Trouble collective identities and social bonding around identities still exist. Bonedance by Emma Bull is another favourite. Never have I been so uncertain as to a central character's sex or sexuality, it is extremely well crafted. Joan Vinge's Catspaw would certainly also qualify. Two other series by women come to mind, The Revolution's Shore trilogy by Alis A. Rasmussen, and Wilhelmina Baird's trilogy including Psykosis. Whether I would consider these feminst works I'm not sure. Enjoying the list as always, Robin Gordon -------------------------------------- "I am the wall with the womanly swagger." Judy Grahn From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:29:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA106422 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:44:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07854 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:41:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA48370; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:32:58 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 29409 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:32:57 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA127632 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:31:48 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA25117 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA18148 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:47:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: >NH: Do you know what they do read? hi nalo et al, in my questionnaire/contract i ask my students (freshpersons) what they read... usually in a class of 25, 5 have never read a novel all the way through, 15 of them (all young men) read Stephen King, Tom Clancy, and Michael Crichton... and the young women (the 7-10 -- women are a minority still here, though not by much) usually report texts that they read as assignments (Hamlet, Macbeth, Jane Eyre, 1984, Scarlet Letter.... canon stuff). of 25, about 5 seem to be avid readers. by the end of the semester, i think i have changed that -- perhaps my proudest aspect of teaching. if i'm lucky, i'll get one student who has read sci-fi. and it's usually a young male who reads Heinlein. (one of whom introduced me to the works of Giger -- the artist for the movie "Alien")(perhaps the only visual artist who could be labelled science fiction feminist???)(anyone know of others???) i wish wish wish i had more students who came to the class as avid readers-- and sci-fi readers. it's one of my goals to change this. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Mon Apr 21 09:30:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA288386 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:49:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08556 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:50:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31764; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:41:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 29612 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:41:08 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA40950 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:40:26 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA26660 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA23714 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:55:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Mike Levy wrote of M. Barr: >She's a fine critic, though I wish she were a better prose stylist. > hmm. well, she's a bit hard to follow, but after her 3rd essay, i found i began to think like her writing. (eek?) i'm thinking that she may write less linear than writers of the past. helene cixous suggests that many women writers write cyclically and loopy --- curvy, if you will, which mirrors our body consciousness. i like this idea! (though it suggests some major problems, i know.) can you suggest another fem sci fi critic that works as a better prose stylist? -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:29:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA157886 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:16:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11096 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:13:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA127324; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:48:50 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 32335 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:48:49 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA108712 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:47:44 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 11:48 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199704211307.JAA09026@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Status: RO X-Status: NH: Hi, Sheryl. The Elgin books would have been the first I would have recommended. There's also Samuel Delany's _Babel 17,_ although Suzette Elgin told me that he gets some of his linguistic principles wrong in that one. And I don't know that any of her books are *about* translation, but Quebecer Elisabeth Vonarburg writes in both French and English. I know that she has an essay about the difference between writing the same text in two languages vs. translating it from one language to the other. -nalo On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Sheryl Curtis wrote: > Hi: > > I'm fairly new to the list and although I enjoy reading you all, I don't > have much time to post. Now I'd like your help. I teach French to English > translation part-time at Concordia University. The course I generally teach > is the introductory course, so there is little focus on translation theory > or history, which is covered in other courses. In addition to the practical > work we do in the course, I generally make my students read one book on > translation theory. I have been thinking of trying something new next fall > and having them read science fiction books or short stories which discuss > translation. I am familiar with the first two Native tongue books and I > believe I read on this list a couple of weeks that there is a third one, for > which I would be grateful for a reference. What I would like to know is if > any of you could give me authors and titles which would be appropriate. If > the material is feminist it would be even better, since the large majority > of translation students and translators are also women. Anyway, any help > will be appreciated. > > Sheryl C. > Montreal, Quebec > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:29:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA134334 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:27:39 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA12466 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA107414; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:06:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 32811 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:06:01 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA134628 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:05:22 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 97 12:05 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:05:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: NH: From my perspective as a non-academic, that doesn't sound too bad. They are literate, many of them are reading either for fun or some other goal, and much of that reading leads well into sf (King, Crichton...Eyre?). Me, I'd be tempted to be sneaky; slip 'em something that uses many of the same tropes as the writing to which they are accustomed, but which starts to be more sf, and to introduce issues to which you want to expose them. -nalo On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > >NH: Do you know what they do read? > > hi nalo et al, > in my questionnaire/contract i ask my students (freshpersons) what they > read... usually in a class of 25, 5 have never read a novel all the way > through, 15 of them (all young men) read Stephen King, Tom Clancy, and > Michael Crichton... and the young women (the 7-10 -- women are a minority > still here, though not by much) usually report texts that they read as > assignments (Hamlet, Macbeth, Jane Eyre, 1984, Scarlet Letter.... canon > stuff). of 25, about 5 seem to be avid readers. by the end of the semester, > i think i have changed that -- perhaps my proudest aspect of teaching. > > if i'm lucky, i'll get one student who has read sci-fi. and it's usually a > young male who reads Heinlein. (one of whom introduced me to the works of > Giger -- the artist for the movie "Alien")(perhaps the only visual artist > who could be labelled science fiction feminist???)(anyone know of > others???) > > i wish wish wish i had more students who came to the class as avid > readers-- and sci-fi readers. it's one of my goals to change this. > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:30:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA81210 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:47:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14400 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:47:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA78698; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:35:15 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 33455 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:35:14 -0500 Received: from lucia.u.arizona.edu (lucia.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.26]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA106296 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:23:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (lorie@localhost) by lucia.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA25468; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:21:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:21:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lorie G Sauble-otto Subject: Re: SF and Translation Comments: To: Nalo Hopkinson To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Hello everyone--I'm brand new to this listserv and I'm excited about it. I'm writing a doctoral thesis about Vonarburg's works and I would like to know if you have a reference for the essay you've mentioned about translation. There seems to be a lot of theorizing going on right now about the stickiness of translation. thanks, lorie On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > NH: Hi, Sheryl. The Elgin books would have been the first I would have > recommended. There's also Samuel Delany's _Babel 17,_ although Suzette > Elgin told me that he gets some of his linguistic principles wrong in > that one. And I don't know that any of her books are *about* > translation, but Quebecer Elisabeth Vonarburg writes in both French and > English. I know that she has an essay about the difference between > writing the same text in two languages vs. translating it from one > language to the other. > > -nalo > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Sheryl Curtis wrote: > > > Hi: > > > > I'm fairly new to the list and although I enjoy reading you all, I don't > > have much time to post. Now I'd like your help. I teach French to English > > translation part-time at Concordia University. The course I generally teach > > is the introductory course, so there is little focus on translation theory > > or history, which is covered in other courses. In addition to the practical > > work we do in the course, I generally make my students read one book on > > translation theory. I have been thinking of trying something new next fall > > and having them read science fiction books or short stories which discuss > > translation. I am familiar with the first two Native tongue books and I > > believe I read on this list a couple of weeks that there is a third one, for > > which I would be grateful for a reference. What I would like to know is if > > any of you could give me authors and titles which would be appropriate. If > > the material is feminist it would be even better, since the large majority > > of translation students and translators are also women. Anyway, any help > > will be appreciated. > > > > Sheryl C. > > Montreal, Quebec > > > Lorie Sauble-Otto Dept. of French & Italian Mod Lang 549 The University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:30:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA39006 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:46:47 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14051 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:44:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA47284; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:27:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 33486 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:27:05 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA107236 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:26:22 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 12:26 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: SF and Translation Comments: To: Lorie G Sauble-otto To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: NH: I think I may have it at home, Lorie; I'll have a look when I get there (right now, I'm at work). -nalo On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Lorie G Sauble-otto wrote: > > Hello everyone--I'm brand new to this listserv and I'm excited about it. > I'm writing a doctoral thesis about Vonarburg's works and I would like to > know if you have a reference for the essay you've mentioned about > translation. There seems to be a lot of theorizing going on right now > about the stickiness of translation. thanks, lorie > > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > > NH: Hi, Sheryl. The Elgin books would have been the first I would have > > recommended. There's also Samuel Delany's _Babel 17,_ although Suzette > > Elgin told me that he gets some of his linguistic principles wrong in > > that one. And I don't know that any of her books are *about* > > translation, but Quebecer Elisabeth Vonarburg writes in both French and > > English. I know that she has an essay about the difference between > > writing the same text in two languages vs. translating it from one > > language to the other. > > > > -nalo > > > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Sheryl Curtis wrote: > > > > > Hi: > > > > > > I'm fairly new to the list and although I enjoy reading you all, I don't > > > have much time to post. Now I'd like your help. I teach French to English > > > translation part-time at Concordia University. The course I generally teach > > > is the introductory course, so there is little focus on translation theory > > > or history, which is covered in other courses. In addition to the practical > > > work we do in the course, I generally make my students read one book on > > > translation theory. I have been thinking of trying something new next fall > > > and having them read science fiction books or short stories which discuss > > > translation. I am familiar with the first two Native tongue books and I > > > believe I read on this list a couple of weeks that there is a third one, for > > > which I would be grateful for a reference. What I would like to know is if > > > any of you could give me authors and titles which would be appropriate. If > > > the material is feminist it would be even better, since the large majority > > > of translation students and translators are also women. Anyway, any help > > > will be appreciated. > > > > > > Sheryl C. > > > Montreal, Quebec > > > > > > > Lorie Sauble-Otto > Dept. of French & Italian > Mod Lang 549 > The University of Arizona > Tucson, AZ 85721 > > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:30:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA228434 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:46:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19656 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:44:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA127396; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:27:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 34523 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:27:03 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA37846 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:26:20 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 12:26:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:26:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Mike Levy wrote of M. Barr: > > >She's a fine critic, though I wish she were a better prose stylist. > > > > hmm. well, she's a bit hard to follow, but after her 3rd essay, i found i > began to think like her writing. (eek?) i'm thinking that she may write > less linear than writers of the past. helene cixous suggests that many > women writers write cyclically and loopy --- curvy, if you will, which > mirrors our body consciousness. i like this idea! (though it suggests some > major problems, i know.) > > can you suggest another fem sci fi critic that works as a better prose stylist? > > -lissa bloomer > You may be right about this, Lissa. I've seen similar things said about a number of female fiction writers as well, particularly Eleanor Arnason. How does this connect with Le Guin's whole carrier bag theory of fiction by the way? Female science fiction critics who are better prose stylists than Barr? Well, Le Guin and Joanna Russ for starters? Aside from them the first person who comes to mind is Joan Gordon, who is a superb stylist as well as a brilliant critic. Also Veronica Hollinger, Martha Bartter, Liz Cummings, Natalie Rosinsky, Francis Bartkowski. Please note, I'm not saying these people are necessarily better critics than Barr, just better prose stylists (IMO). Mike From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:30:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA251660 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:48:00 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26198 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:46:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA95638; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:31:24 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 35941 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:31:22 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA30500 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:30:18 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA20448 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:23:40 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970421133314.324f9fae@academic.truman.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: At 21:48 4/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > >[snip] > Yech indeed. It boggles my mind how this could be the case, even if >only in a societal context. Unfortunately, I see this often enough in my >own life. I just joined a sci-fi reading group at the local Borders. >There were three women, me, and the man that worked there that was in >charge of the group. Note that this was sci-fi in general, not even >feminist sci-fi. It seemes that one societal imbalance (women in book >groups) overcame another (men and sci-fi). I'm teaching Fantasy this semester, rather than SF -- (they rotate on our calendar) -- and have many, many more male students that female (three to one, almost). When I teach SF, I'm apt to have as many women as men. The old stereotypes about SF/F readers do NOT seem to hold here. > > Perhaps that adage should be more like: reading is NOT for boys and math >is NOT for girls, so feminist sci-fi is for NO traditional people. > >-- Joel VanLaven > Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:30:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA87808 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:53:10 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26439 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:48:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA57534; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:35:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 35992 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:35:03 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA116266 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:34:38 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA34842 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:27:52 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970421133726.324fcafc@academic.truman.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:35:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Another gender observation To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <19970420221717.61669@puma.macbsd.com> Status: RO X-Status: At 22:17 4/20/97 -0400, you wrote: (snip) >Back to FEMINISTSF ;-): Does anyone have suggestions for feminist >"hard sf"? Is that oxymoronic? Try Lois Bujold's _Falling Free_ (she doesn't write as a "feminist" but the female concerns certainly do show up here). Bujold always privileges women, and the jobs that only women can do...which often ticks off the more feminist feminists, who seem to feel that doing those jobs are now antifeminist. A problem, I think. Also, for the non-masculinization...Bujold's character Cordelia, in _Shards of Honor_ and _Barrayar_ is definitely not "maculine," but she definitely gets a so-called "man's job" done as well as her more female activities. > How does one separate feminism from >the masculinization of the female? My wife and I watched the _Alien_ >movies this weekend (following the discussion on this list), and while >the human society in the movies is more gender-equal than ours, neither >of us saw either of the first two movies as feminist. We did only watch >the first two movies. Is the third worth seeing? > >Pax, >-allen > >-- > Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com > Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:30:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA288392 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:26:18 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00362 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:26:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA87882; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:51:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 36208 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:51:02 -0500 Received: from nexus.mtroyal.ab.ca (nexus.mtroyal.ab.ca [142.109.10.3]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA116902 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:50:27 -0500 Received: from MtRoyal.AB.CA by MtRoyal.AB.CA (PMDF V4.3-10 #5924) id <01IHYUGOKVSOE0PKZY@MtRoyal.AB.CA>; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:44:48 -0700 (MST) X-VMS-To: NETMAIL::"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message-ID: <01IHYUGOL5FUE0PKZY@MtRoyal.AB.CA> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:44:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rick Collier To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Might I suggest in regard to Sheryl C's search for SF stories that deal with translation problems that she look at Sheila Finch's "lingster" stories scattered throughout the last two years or so of _Fantasy and Science Fiction_ (I don't think they have yet been collected into a separate volume). Finch's approach to the problems of language and understand being human beings and aliens is quite similar in several regards to Elgin's. rick c From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:31:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA59974 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:16:26 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15568 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:16:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA76810; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:41:14 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 38037 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:41:12 -0500 Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (root@quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA93092 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:30:50 -0500 Received: from neilrest.tezcat.com (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id PAA11787 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:30:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: NeilRest@tezcat.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421152931.00695984@tezcat.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: lissa bloomer replied: >>NH: Do you know what they do read? > >hi nalo et al, >in my questionnaire/contract i ask my students (freshpersons) what they >read... usually in a class of 25, 5 have never read a novel all the way >through, >of 25, about 5 seem to be avid readers. by the end of the semester, >i think i have changed that -- perhaps my proudest aspect of teaching. > >if i'm lucky, i'll get one student who has read sci-fi. and it's usually a >young male who reads Heinlein. (one of whom introduced me to the works of >Giger -- the artist for the movie "Alien")(perhaps the only visual artist >who could be labelled science fiction feminist???)(anyone know of >others???) In comix, Sherry Rudahl (sp?) and, always, Trina Robbins (only occasionally sci-fi) come immediately to mind. There's always been some sf in the Wimmin's Comix series. Neil Rest From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:31:09 1997 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:31:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lauramd@tigger.cc.uic.edu To: feministsf@uic.edu Subject: NEW: GeeQ - a discussion of Sci-fi/Fantasy Queer Perspectives (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: fyi, y'all ... Laura M. Quilter / lauramd@uic.edu Electronic Services Librarian University of Illinois at Chicago http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/ "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:42:48 +0100 From: Stephen Clark Reply-To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT Subject: NEW: GeeQ - a discussion of Sci-fi/Fantasy Queer Perspectives (fwd) For information: > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:44:59 -0500 > Reply-To: Song Weaver > > GeeQ on LISTSERV@ListServ.aol.com > > GeeQ is an e-mail list for discussion of Science Fiction and Fantasy > from queer perspectives. Anyone interested in the subject matter is > welcome to join, regardless of sexual orientation. > > More information can be found by sending the command INFO GEEQ to > listserv@listserv.aol.com > > Any other questions can be directed to GeeQ-request@listserv.aol.com > > To subscribe to GeeQ, send the command > > SUBSCRIBE GeeQ Your Name > > in the body of E-mail to listserv@listserv.aol.com . > > Owner: Julie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu > http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~julie/ > > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:32:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA43098 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:10:34 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA24484 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:11:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA71220; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:55:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 41881 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:55:04 -0500 Received: from sturgeon.ece.ucdavis.edu (sturgeon.ece.ucdavis.edu [128.120.54.53]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA50830 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:54:24 -0500 Received: (from bgray@localhost) by sturgeon.ece.ucdavis.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA19318 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704212254.PAA19318@sturgeon.ece.ucdavis.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:54:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Egalia's Daughters To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: re: Timmi Duchamp's observations: I read Egalia's Daughters for the first time at the suggestion of a (male) friend last summer. I thought it was a very well-written biting satire. Perhaps the most important contribution of the book, at least to me, was just how ARBITRARY the gender roles were portrayed, ie, completely the result of (wo-)man made conventions of behaviour. The systematic oppression of men was rationalized so rediculously, it shed more light on presently (and, even more so, past) society-dictated gender roles than a direct satire of a male dominated society would have. However, although I consider the book a classic, I can't help wondering if some of the references, no doubt current when the book was written, passed me by because I am of a different generation. Which brings me to my next question: Does anybody know of a more recent book written in a similar vein? Bonnie Gray From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:33:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA134226 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:53:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26913 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:53:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA98000; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:32:56 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 42328 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:32:55 -0500 Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA98028 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:21:26 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA14285 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970421192041_-1267923906@emout11.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 19:20:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sandeen Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: HI well I've been reading the list for awhile and haven't been saying anything because I've read so few of the books mentioned. I'm a Sr in HS and I thought answer this question, too. In my Ap english class about half of the class read just for assignments. About two read "trash romance." Maybe three read the traditional books that are usually taught in school. About four of us read science fiction, most of my friends despice science fiction and think I'm nuts for reading it, but who cares. I haven't been reading science fiction in a few years, but my bibliomaniac teacher got me hooked again. Laura Sandeen "Hampton" From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA125734 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:54:04 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06818 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:55:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20762; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:41:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45671 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:41:02 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA71170 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:40:50 -0500 Received: from akr-oh1-17.ix.netcom.com (BPnthr@akr-oh1-17.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.49]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA29467 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:26:53 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970421224350.42f7121c@kent.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:26:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: 1997 Hugo Ballot To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Another forward... >1997 Hugo Nominations (429 ballots) > > >Best Novel (356 ballots) > >Blue Mars, by Kim Stanley Robinson (HarperCollins Voyager; Bantam > Spectra) >Holy Fire, by Bruce Sterling (Orion; Bantam Spectra) >Memory, by Lois McMaster Bujold (Baen) >Remnant Population, by Elizabeth Moon (Baen) >Starplex, by Robert J. Sawyer (Ace) > > >Best Novella (209 ballots) > >Abandon in Place, by Jerry Oltion (F&SF 12/96) >Blood of The Dragon, by George R. R. Martin (Asimov's 7/96) >The Cost to Be Wise, by Maureen F. McHugh (Starlight 1) >Gas Fish, by Mary Rosenblum (Asimov's 2/96) >Immersion, by Gregory Benford (SF Age 3/96) >Time Travelers Never Die, by Jack McDevitt (Asimov's 5/96) > > >Best Novelette (221 ballots) > >Age of Aquarius, by William Barton (Asimov's 5/96) >Beauty and the Opera or the Phantom Beast, by Suzy McKee Charnas > (Asimov's 3/96) >Bicycle Repairman, by Bruce Sterling (Intersections; Asimov's 10/96) >The Land of Nod, by Mike Resnick (Asimov's 6/96) >Mountain Ways, by Ursula K. Le Guin (Asimov's 8/96) > > >Best Short Story (254 ballots) > >The Dead, by Michael Swanwick (Starlight 1) >Decency, by Robert Reed (Asimov's 6/96) >Gone, by John Crowley (F&SF 9/96) >The Soul Selects Her Own Society..., by Connie Willis (Asimov's 4/96; > War of the Worlds: Global Dispatches) >Un-Birthday Boy, by James White (Analog 2/96) > > >Best Non-Fiction Book (163 ballots) > >The Faces of Fantasy, by Patti Perret (Tor) >Look at the Evidence, by John Clute (Serconia Press) >Silence of the Langford, by Dave Langford (NESFA Press) >Time & Chance, by L. Sprague de Camp (Grant) >The Tough Guide to Fantasyland, by Diana Wynne Jones (Gollancz/Vista) > > >Best Dramatic Presentation (283 ballots) > >Independence Day, (Centropolis Film Productions/20th Century Fox Film) > Directed by Roland Emmerich, Written by Dean Devlin and Roland Emmerich, > Produced by Dean Devlin >Mars Attacks!, (Warner Bros.) Directed by Tim Burton, Written by > Jonathan Gems, Produced by Tim Burton and Larry Franco >Babylon 5 "Severed Dreams", (Warner Bros.) Directed by David J. Eagle, > Written by J. Michael Straczynski, Produced by John Copeland >Star Trek: First Contact, (Paramount Pictures) Directed by Jonathan Frakes, > Story by Ronald D. Moore, Brannon Braga & Rick Berman, Screenplay by > Ronald D. Moore & Brannon Braga, Produced by Rick Berman >Star Trek: Deep Space Nine "Trials and Tribble-ations", (Paramount Pictures) > Directed by Jonathan West, Written by Ronald D. Moore & Rene Echevarria, > Story by Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler & Robert Hewitt Wolfe, > Executive Producers Ira Steven Behr & Rick Berman >[Babylon 5 "War without End" and "Z'Ha'Dum" were nominated but J. Michael > Straczynski declined.] > > >Best Editor (248 ballots) > >Gardner Dozois (Asimov's) >Scott Edelman (SF Age) >Patrick Nielsen Hayden (Tor) >Kristine Kathryn Rusch (F&SF) >Stanley Schmidt (Analog) > > >Best Professional Artist (226 ballots) > >Thomas Canty >David Cherry >Bob Eggleton >Don Maitz >Michael Whelan > > >Best Semiprozine (223 ballots) > >Interzone, edited by David Pringle >Locus, edited by Charles N. Brown >New York Review of Science Fiction, edited by Kathryn Cramer, > Tad Dembinski, Ariel Hameon, David G. Hartwell and Kevin Maroney >Science Fiction Chronicle, edited by Andrew I. Porter >Speculations, edited by Kent Brewster > > >Best Fanzine (224 ballots) > >Ansible, edited by Dave Langford >File 770, edited by Mike Glyer >Mimosa, edited by Dick & Nicki Lynch >Nova Express, edited by Lawrence Person >Tangent, edited by Dave Truesdale > > >Best Fan Writer (202 ballots) > >Sharon Farber >Mike Glyer >Andy Hooper >Dave Langford >Evelyn C. Leeper > > >Best Fan Artist (177 ballots) > >Ian Gunn >Joe Mayhew >Peggy Ranson >William Rotsler >Sherlock >[Brad Foster and Teddy Harvia declined their nominations.] > > >John W. Campbell Award (not a Hugo) (156 ballots) > >Michael A. Burstein (second year of eligiblity) >Raphael Carter (first year of eligiblity) >Richard Garfinkle (first year of eligiblity) >Katya Reimann (first year of eligiblity) >Sharon Shinn (second year of eligiblity) > > > hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA206770 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:53:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06759 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:54:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA46912; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:35:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45524 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:35:02 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA77742 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:34:38 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 97 22:34 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:34:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <970421192041_-1267923906@emout11.mail.aol.com> Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Laura Sandeen wrote: > four of us read science fiction, most of my friends despice science fiction > and think I'm nuts for reading it, but who cares. NH: Ah, a kindred spirit. Welcome, Laura. -nalo From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:33:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA173574 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:53:10 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04145 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:53:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA31974; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:29:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 44830 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:29:03 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20790 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:28:34 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA05558 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA13087 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:44:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: to nalo's comment (which follows): yes, they are literate! and bright! and witty! but so frightened of anything that brushes next to feminism. i am sneaky, as you would be... the first book that i slipped in there was Octavia Butler's _Kindred_. worked amazingly well. do you have other titles that might be slipped in -- that you think are a bit more subtle, than say, _Motherlines_ ??? keep in mind, sf is so very new to me. (but my appetite is insatiable.) -lissa bloomer >NH: From my perspective as a non-academic, that doesn't sound too bad. >They are literate, many of them are reading either for fun or some other >goal, and much of that reading leads well into sf (King, >Crichton...Eyre?). Me, I'd be tempted to be sneaky; slip 'em something >that uses many of the same tropes as the writing to which they are >accustomed, but which starts to be more sf, and to introduce issues to >which you want to expose them. > >-nalo > > > >On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > >> >NH: Do you know what they do read? >> >> hi nalo et al, >> in my questionnaire/contract i ask my students (freshpersons) what they >> read... usually in a class of 25, 5 have never read a novel all the way >> through, 15 of them (all young men) read Stephen King, Tom Clancy, and >> Michael Crichton... and the young women (the 7-10 -- women are a minority >> still here, though not by much) usually report texts that they read as >> assignments (Hamlet, Macbeth, Jane Eyre, 1984, Scarlet Letter.... canon >> stuff). of 25, about 5 seem to be avid readers. by the end of the semester, >> i think i have changed that -- perhaps my proudest aspect of teaching. >> >> if i'm lucky, i'll get one student who has read sci-fi. and it's usually a >> young male who reads Heinlein. (one of whom introduced me to the works of >> Giger -- the artist for the movie "Alien")(perhaps the only visual artist >> who could be labelled science fiction feminist???)(anyone know of >> others???) >> >> i wish wish wish i had more students who came to the class as avid >> readers-- and sci-fi readers. it's one of my goals to change this. >> >> -lissa bloomer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. >> >> elisabeth bloomer >> instructor, english >> virginia tech >> ebloomer@vt.edu >> 540.231.2445 >> if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA84248 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:06:12 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07358 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:07:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA33320; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:55:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45787 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:55:03 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29422 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:54:26 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 97 22:54 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:54:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: Someone said Emma Bull's _Bone Dance._ I second that emotion. Don't want to spoil it for anyone, but you're a good chunk into something that might be just a good action/intrigue piece before you're smack dab up against your own gender biases. Sounds like you did a bit of bait-and-switch with your students by using _Kindred._ I've heard Samuel Delany say that _China Mountain Zhang_ is the novel that's most popular with his students. It could, I think, perform a similar function; get wary readers focussed on the mixed race and disempowered youth issues, but also get them thinking about societal pressures to conform to one mode of sexual expression. (Oh, and the cover for the pbk edition of _Bone Dance_ is most emphatically not one of the babe-in-brass-bra types.) Kim Stanley Robinson's _Pacific Edge._ I haven't read the rest of the trilogy, and I don't know what the hell I'm waiting for. I find his sheer wordcraft enchanting, and for the rest, (pace anyone whose descriptions might be more accurate than mine) it's an eco-conscious novel that paints the universe in a drop of water by detailing the personal and political conflicts amongst the members of a small town council in a utopic (California? I learned a different geography than American). Sounds dry, but it's juicy. And, I think, humanist--is that a word?--in that it speaks to feminism, and looks at ageism and sizeism too. And, um, _Dune?_ Not claiming that it's feminist, but if only for the Bene Gesserit witches...could lead to some interesting discussions on women wielding power. -nalo On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > to nalo's comment (which follows): > > yes, they are literate! and bright! and witty! but so frightened of > anything that brushes next to feminism. i am sneaky, as you would be... the > first book that i slipped in there was Octavia Butler's _Kindred_. worked > amazingly well. do you have other titles that might be slipped in -- that > you think are a bit more subtle, than say, _Motherlines_ ??? keep in mind, > sf is so very new to me. (but my appetite is insatiable.) > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > >NH: From my perspective as a non-academic, that doesn't sound too bad. > >They are literate, many of them are reading either for fun or some other > >goal, and much of that reading leads well into sf (King, > >Crichton...Eyre?). Me, I'd be tempted to be sneaky; slip 'em something > >that uses many of the same tropes as the writing to which they are > >accustomed, but which starts to be more sf, and to introduce issues to > >which you want to expose them. > > > >-nalo > > > > > > > >On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > > > >> >NH: Do you know what they do read? > >> > >> hi nalo et al, > >> in my questionnaire/contract i ask my students (freshpersons) what they > >> read... usually in a class of 25, 5 have never read a novel all the way > >> through, 15 of them (all young men) read Stephen King, Tom Clancy, and > >> Michael Crichton... and the young women (the 7-10 -- women are a minority > >> still here, though not by much) usually report texts that they read as > >> assignments (Hamlet, Macbeth, Jane Eyre, 1984, Scarlet Letter.... canon > >> stuff). of 25, about 5 seem to be avid readers. by the end of the semester, > >> i think i have changed that -- perhaps my proudest aspect of teaching. > >> > >> if i'm lucky, i'll get one student who has read sci-fi. and it's usually a > >> young male who reads Heinlein. (one of whom introduced me to the works of > >> Giger -- the artist for the movie "Alien")(perhaps the only visual artist > >> who could be labelled science fiction feminist???)(anyone know of > >> others???) > >> > >> i wish wish wish i had more students who came to the class as avid > >> readers-- and sci-fi readers. it's one of my goals to change this. > >> > >> -lissa bloomer > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > >> > >> elisabeth bloomer > >> instructor, english > >> virginia tech > >> ebloomer@vt.edu > >> 540.231.2445 > >> > > > > > if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:33:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA152510 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:54:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04237 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:55:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA99450; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:47:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45046 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:47:03 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA96350 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:46:18 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA07739 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA18580 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:02:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Mike Levy wrote: You may be right about this, Lissa. I've seen similar things said about a >number of female fiction writers as well, particularly Eleanor Arnason. How >does this connect with Le Guin's whole carrier bag theory of fiction by >the way? hmm... i suppose, back to the idea of hero's, that the hero's journey is usually linear: (the german "bildungsroman") young male's parents die, young male goes out into the world to find fatherness, finds evil, kills evil, (sometimes finds out evil is father)((feminist?)), becomes mr. goodness of the universe. Le Guin believes the hero story is not what is good about novels (and sci fi) --- as novels should be containers for collections. so, i would imagine that in order to collect, she must meander, rather than take the ol' straightaway. (hence, the loopyness? the curves and wanderings?) as well, she collects her ideas into a bag -- taking the ideas in, holding them next to her. i'm not sure if Le Guin would go so far as to say that this mirrors what the french fem critics of the body (such as Cixous) theorize -- because woman as bag sounds pretty terrible. as does woman as hole, or woman as emptiness-that-needs-to-be-filled (like Lillian Robinson writes satirically about)... i guess Le Guin is writing that women collect and men kill--gatherers vs. hunters. (sorry.)(she is, after all, referring to anthropology). but i don't know if she relates this to our bodies directly... although the sexual implications are glaring to me. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA81320 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:06:01 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07363 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:07:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA104098; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:57:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45808 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:57:02 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA46694 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:56:14 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA15958 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA27210 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:11:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Laura wrote: >HI well I've been reading the list for awhile and haven't been saying >anything because I've read so few of the books mentioned. I'm a Sr in HS and >I thought answer this question, too. In my Ap english class about half of >the class read just for assignments. About two read "trash romance." Maybe >three read the traditional books that are usually taught in school. About >four of us read science fiction, most of my friends despice science fiction >and think I'm nuts for reading it, but who cares. I haven't been reading >science fiction in a few years, but my bibliomaniac teacher got me hooked >again. > >Laura Sandeen >"Hampton" Laura: so glad to hear from a younger person... it's absolutely necessary to hear your voice!!! i haven't read as much as the others on the list, either... but i'm learning so much by discussion. (i'm 30 and an english instructor). (double ack.) what have you read? and what did you think about those works? AND why do you think you and your friends don't read sf? or at all? do you feel that the females read more or less -- and why? and one last question: what is going on in the high schools and around younger people today that makes them think that feminism is so terrible? i'd love to get your perspective. -lissa bloomer if you're wearing pants, thank my great great great grandmother. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA142138 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:23:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10795 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:25:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA71196; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:18:00 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47882 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:17:59 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA41442 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:17:06 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 23:17:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:17:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > Mike Levy wrote: > > You may be right about this, Lissa. I've seen similar things said about a > >number of female fiction writers as well, particularly Eleanor Arnason. How > >does this connect with Le Guin's whole carrier bag theory of fiction by > >the way? > > > hmm... i suppose, back to the idea of hero's, that the hero's journey is > usually linear: (the german "bildungsroman") young male's parents die, > young male goes out into the world to find fatherness, finds evil, kills > evil, (sometimes finds out evil is father)((feminist?)), becomes mr. > goodness of the universe. Le Guin believes the hero story is not what is > good about novels (and sci fi) --- as novels should be containers for > collections. so, i would imagine that in order to collect, she must > meander, rather than take the ol' straightaway. (hence, the loopyness? the > curves and wanderings?) as well, she collects her ideas into a bag -- > taking the ideas in, holding them next to her. i'm not sure if Le Guin > would go so far as to say that this mirrors what the french fem critics of > the body (such as Cixous) theorize -- because woman as bag sounds pretty > terrible. as does woman as hole, or woman as > emptiness-that-needs-to-be-filled (like Lillian Robinson writes satirically > about)... > > i guess Le Guin is writing that women collect and men kill--gatherers vs. > hunters. (sorry.)(she is, after all, referring to anthropology). but i > don't know if she relates this to our bodies directly... although the > sexual implications are glaring to me. > > -lissa bloomer > You might be interested in the essay "Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea: Rescuing the Damaged Child"which appeared in the January 1997 issue of The New York Review of SF. It was written by Sandra Lindow (who I have the great good fortune to be married to) and it discusses some of the connections between Le Guin's carrier bag theory, Carol Gilligan's theories of moral development, Le Guin's frequent use of child abuse in her fiction, and her attitudes towards abortion. Mike Levy From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA238576 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:58:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12117 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:58:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA89010; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:51:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 48159 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:51:03 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA60786 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:49:31 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 23:49:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:49:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > in response to nalo -- and also a bunch of other stuff: > > eye-yi-yi. i have so much reading to do. egads. i've never heard of -Bone > Dance- so i'll give it a try. you know, this sounds really really really > terrible, and i promised myself 7 years ago when i first started teaching > that if i ever muttered the words i should quit immediately..........but... > here are the words... i'm beginning to tire of trying fem works in a > freshman comp class. i'm not complaining - i love my job and the students > -- i think i'm obsessively worrying as constructive procrastination since i > have papers to grade. however, it's just that it's first of all damaging to > my own persona, since it's hard to teach books that are so close to home, > so personal, and so religiously a part of my core beliefs. ya know? it's > hard for me to distance. for example, i used marilyn robinson's > _Housekeeping_ (which Marlene Barr would certainly call "feminist > fabulation", since Ruth and Sylvie both leave ((transcend)) the patriarchal > world for another) in 1105, and felt quite emotionally drained. i wanted > them all to love it as much as me, and when some didn't, it hurt. i want to > use _Momaday_ in a class, but i'm not sure i can well. there are, maybe, > 20 books that i'm not sure i could ever use in a classroom because they are > so close to me. (the kind of books that i want to match the paint of the > covers to paint my bedroom... the kind of books that smell of the bottom of > my sachel...) and, strangely enough, most, if not all, of these books are > feminist and of the sf ilk. and the more i read, the more i find i cannot > share in the freshman english classroom. too scared? yes. and it sucks. > that i have to, as nalo says, "bait and switch" is terrible. that if i use > Ursula Le Guin's "Carrier Bag of Fiction" in the classroom and then am > assumed a male-hating-radical-feminist-who > is-going-to-automatically-fail-all-men is too. > > how does one teach a feminist sci fi book????? how does one teach a book > that one loves without going insane? (( i know the "one should only teach > the books that one loves so that one will be motivated" answer... and i > know the "jesus, get some distance" answer.... and i know the "you must > share all the books, you selfish geek" answer....and the "you should be > teaching an optional class in an arts program" answer...and the "you need > to go pay for your voice and get your damn phd" answer...)) > > could you share your "delaney shelf" with anyone? ((and did you write that > you HEARD him SAY something? wow. did you meet him?))((Le Guin and Delany > are gods.)) > > > -lissa bloomer I think that every teacher who cares about his/her subject goes through this, Lissa. It's unavoidable. Eventually you develop a thick skin; that's why I can still teach The Left Hand of Darkness even though I know it will have only so-so success with many of my students. One trick is to find a few books and stories that you really like and that do really work. Those kind of successes can help. I use A Wizard of Earthsea, Natalie Babbitt's The Eyes of the Amaryllis (in children's lit) Anne Tyler's Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant, and Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath, all pretty much sure fire winners. Speaking of Le Guin as God. I met her last year at WisCon 20. My first reaction was to think, my God, she's tiny! In my head she was at least 6 feet tall, of course. In reality she's like 5'4". Meeting Octavia Butler, on the other hand, was the opposite kind of experience. She got on an elevator I was already on at SFRA in Chicago 3 years back, and her height and general presence were absolutely daunting. She's at least 6'1". Mike Levy From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA87830 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:15:30 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12878 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:16:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA36010; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:57:57 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 48218 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:57:55 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA40092 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:57:51 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Mon, 21 Apr 97 23:57:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > sometime in the middle of some night, Mike Levy wrote: > > > >You might be interested in the essay "Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea: > >Rescuing the Damaged Child"which appeared in the January 1997 issue of The > >New York Review of SF. It was written by Sandra Lindow (who I have the great > >good fortune to be married to) and it discusses some of the connections > >between Le Guin's carrier bag theory, Carol Gilligan's theories of moral > >development, Le Guin's frequent use of child abuse in her fiction, and > >her attitudes towards abortion. > > woweee!!! sounds totally incredibly what i need to find. i need to hunt it > down and bag it. ha. thank you. your significant other sounds nifty. ((how > come she's not writing on this list? are you hogging the controls?)) > > -lissa bloomer > No, Sandy's just internet phobic and a bit introverted. She works with emotionally disturbed children all day and when she comes home she isn't all that interested in meeting new people. She rather read or write a poem. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA38790 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:36:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11308 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:37:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA33380; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:31:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47978 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:31:03 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA39944 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:30:59 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA27074 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA31071 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: in response to nalo -- and also a bunch of other stuff: eye-yi-yi. i have so much reading to do. egads. i've never heard of -Bone Dance- so i'll give it a try. you know, this sounds really really really terrible, and i promised myself 7 years ago when i first started teaching that if i ever muttered the words i should quit immediately..........but... here are the words... i'm beginning to tire of trying fem works in a freshman comp class. i'm not complaining - i love my job and the students -- i think i'm obsessively worrying as constructive procrastination since i have papers to grade. however, it's just that it's first of all damaging to my own persona, since it's hard to teach books that are so close to home, so personal, and so religiously a part of my core beliefs. ya know? it's hard for me to distance. for example, i used marilyn robinson's _Housekeeping_ (which Marlene Barr would certainly call "feminist fabulation", since Ruth and Sylvie both leave ((transcend)) the patriarchal world for another) in 1105, and felt quite emotionally drained. i wanted them all to love it as much as me, and when some didn't, it hurt. i want to use _Momaday_ in a class, but i'm not sure i can well. there are, maybe, 20 books that i'm not sure i could ever use in a classroom because they are so close to me. (the kind of books that i want to match the paint of the covers to paint my bedroom... the kind of books that smell of the bottom of my sachel...) and, strangely enough, most, if not all, of these books are feminist and of the sf ilk. and the more i read, the more i find i cannot share in the freshman english classroom. too scared? yes. and it sucks. that i have to, as nalo says, "bait and switch" is terrible. that if i use Ursula Le Guin's "Carrier Bag of Fiction" in the classroom and then am assumed a male-hating-radical-feminist-who is-going-to-automatically-fail-all-men is too. how does one teach a feminist sci fi book????? how does one teach a book that one loves without going insane? (( i know the "one should only teach the books that one loves so that one will be motivated" answer... and i know the "jesus, get some distance" answer.... and i know the "you must share all the books, you selfish geek" answer....and the "you should be teaching an optional class in an arts program" answer...and the "you need to go pay for your voice and get your damn phd" answer...)) could you share your "delaney shelf" with anyone? ((and did you write that you HEARD him SAY something? wow. did you meet him?))((Le Guin and Delany are gods.)) -lissa bloomer if you're not wearing pants, it's time to go home. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:34:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA53246 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:43:48 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11453 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:41:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA43724; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:36:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 48022 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:36:01 -0500 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA43710 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:35:47 -0500 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA27587 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.168.55] (bloomer.english.vt.edu [128.173.168.55]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA26728 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:51:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lissa bloomer Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: sometime in the middle of some night, Mike Levy wrote: >You might be interested in the essay "Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea: >Rescuing the Damaged Child"which appeared in the January 1997 issue of The >New York Review of SF. It was written by Sandra Lindow (who I have the great >good fortune to be married to) and it discusses some of the connections >between Le Guin's carrier bag theory, Carol Gilligan's theories of moral >development, Le Guin's frequent use of child abuse in her fiction, and >her attitudes towards abortion. woweee!!! sounds totally incredibly what i need to find. i need to hunt it down and bag it. ha. thank you. your significant other sounds nifty. ((how come she's not writing on this list? are you hogging the controls?)) -lissa bloomer if you're not wearing pants, it's time to go home. elisabeth bloomer instructor, english virginia tech ebloomer@vt.edu 540.231.2445 From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:35:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA160178 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:43:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA16801 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:44:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA43578; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:37:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 49660 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:37:01 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA68108 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 02:36:29 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 22 Apr 97 03:36 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:36:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: Geez. I don't know that I could teach at all, not this stuff (used to teach aerobics, but somehow that's different, y'know? :) ). I'm only theorizing here, but I think I would hide a little, only teach work for its fem or race or language or whatever content in courses that specifically stated that as an objective. That way I'd have students who were there because they're interested. For more general courses, I'd probably still teach works about which I was passionate, but try to--and I don't even know if one can do this--cull the discussion out of whatever aspects of the work the students themselves found worthy of comment. I think that if I knew there would be resistance, I might try teaching short stories. A quick read so the students wouldn't be facing 300 pages of something they think they're sure to hate. I might also try to use what they're already reading to pull out the type of discussion that gets them thinking. Imagine a feminist take on _Jurassic Park!_ I might try different formats; for instance, I love the comic "Love and Rockets." I think younger people (I'm 36) would relate to the underground, teen-as-outsider feel of it, and while you're relating to that, you can't help but also think about the issues of sexuality it raises (the main characters are bi); you can't help but suck up something of the Latino perspective from which it's written. I might try to haul a vcr or a film projector into class and show some of the more underground, independent stuff, or do a class on the 'Alien' movies. And if they hated the things I loved, I think I would back off snail-like and go show them to someone who did love them. My friends all tend to be extremely bookish, though not necessarily about the same books that I am. And I think that ultimately, my passion for the work would only catch fire with a tiny group of students each year. But hell, maybe they'd remember the song and dance act with the vcr and the comics fondly, and maybe its effects would filter into their lives in unconscious ways. -nalo On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > in response to nalo -- and also a bunch of other stuff: > > eye-yi-yi. i have so much reading to do. egads. i've never heard of -Bone > Dance- so i'll give it a try. you know, this sounds really really really > terrible, and i promised myself 7 years ago when i first started teaching > that if i ever muttered the words i should quit immediately..........but... > here are the words... i'm beginning to tire of trying fem works in a > freshman comp class. i'm not complaining - i love my job and the students > -- i think i'm obsessively worrying as constructive procrastination since i > have papers to grade. however, it's just that it's first of all damaging to > my own persona, since it's hard to teach books that are so close to home, > so personal, and so religiously a part of my core beliefs. ya know? it's > hard for me to distance. for example, i used marilyn robinson's > _Housekeeping_ (which Marlene Barr would certainly call "feminist > fabulation", since Ruth and Sylvie both leave ((transcend)) the patriarchal > world for another) in 1105, and felt quite emotionally drained. i wanted > them all to love it as much as me, and when some didn't, it hurt. i want to > use _Momaday_ in a class, but i'm not sure i can well. there are, maybe, > 20 books that i'm not sure i could ever use in a classroom because they are > so close to me. (the kind of books that i want to match the paint of the > covers to paint my bedroom... the kind of books that smell of the bottom of > my sachel...) and, strangely enough, most, if not all, of these books are > feminist and of the sf ilk. and the more i read, the more i find i cannot > share in the freshman english classroom. too scared? yes. and it sucks. > that i have to, as nalo says, "bait and switch" is terrible. that if i use > Ursula Le Guin's "Carrier Bag of Fiction" in the classroom and then am > assumed a male-hating-radical-feminist-who > is-going-to-automatically-fail-all-men is too. > > how does one teach a feminist sci fi book????? how does one teach a book > that one loves without going insane? (( i know the "one should only teach > the books that one loves so that one will be motivated" answer... and i > know the "jesus, get some distance" answer.... and i know the "you must > share all the books, you selfish geek" answer....and the "you should be > teaching an optional class in an arts program" answer...and the "you need > to go pay for your voice and get your damn phd" answer...)) > > could you share your "delaney shelf" with anyone? ((and did you write that > you HEARD him SAY something? wow. did you meet him?))((Le Guin and Delany > are gods.)) > > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > if you're not wearing pants, it's time to go home. > > elisabeth bloomer > instructor, english > virginia tech > ebloomer@vt.edu > 540.231.2445 > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:36:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA62210 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:50:23 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA20862 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:52:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA82030; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:45:20 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 50948 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:45:18 -0500 Received: from lencois.ufba.br (lencois.ufba.br [192.188.11.37]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA42788 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 06:43:06 -0500 Received: from localhost by lencois.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31882; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:41:53 -0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:41:53 -0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199704211307.JAA09026@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Status: O X-Status: hi! On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Sheryl Curtis wrote: > What I would like to know is if > any of you could give me authors and titles which would be appropriate. If > the material is feminist it would be even better, since the large majority > of translation students and translators are also women. Anyway, any help > will be appreciated. 1) for a very intriguing account of translation abd the problems involved in such a process you may check several titles by stanislaw lem ("solaris"; "fiasco"; some short stories), but i truly recommend you his "his master's voice". the book is about a group of scientists trying to crack a supposed message from the stars - the stretegies for making sense of the unknown are astonishing, and lem' s discussions / raves are, for me at least, always rewarding. also, you might want to take a look at delany' s "babel-17" - the story is about a poet / translator / interpreter, and delany' s discussion of whorfian themes in a space opera setting are an accomplishment (this novel keeps being one of my favorite among delany' s). there' s a sh by tiptree also, but i forgot its name... please reply me privately if you want me to check it for you. best Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:36:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA166712 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:44:03 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22643 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:45:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28598; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:31:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 51483 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:31:09 -0500 Received: from sums2.reading.ac.uk (pp@sums2.rdg.ac.uk [134.225.44.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA65462 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:20:17 -0500 Received: from suma3.rdg.ac.uk (actually host suma3-e3.rdg.ac.uk) by sums2.rdg.ac.uk with ESMTP; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:17:38 +0100 Received: from localhost by suma3.rdg.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA00384; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:17:34 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:17:34 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: In answer to the query about Barr's whereabouts. . . I saw her in LOndon and Reading a couple of months back, on her way through from visiting professorship in Innsbruck to visitiing professorship in Cape Town (where she now is). I do not think she has her Virginia Tech job any more. . . Edward .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:37:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA187538 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:25:52 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA12272 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:22:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA60966; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:03:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 56374 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:03:01 -0500 Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (root@[204.128.247.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA37638 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:02:00 -0500 Received: from neilrest.tezcat.com (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id LAA20323 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:01:52 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: NeilRest@tezcat.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970422110026.006b1200@tezcat.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:00:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: >>You might be interested in the essay "Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea: >>Rescuing the Damaged Child"which appeared in the January 1997 issue of The >>New York Review of SF. It was written by Sandra Lindow (who I have the great >>good fortune to be married to) and it discusses some of the connections >>between Le Guin's carrier bag theory, Carol Gilligan's theories of moral >>development, Le Guin's frequent use of child abuse in her fiction, and >>her attitudes towards abortion. > >woweee!!! sounds totally incredibly what i need to find. i need to hunt it >down and bag it. ha. NYRSF is on the Web. I'm not sure how much of the total published sccumulation is available. They're way cool in general; you may want to subscribe. (Oh, and check the letters following the piece on LeGuin; there's some reasonable stuff about balancing emphasis of the cited sources.) Neil Rest From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA181618 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:15:47 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23858 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:15:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA37720; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:41:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59940 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:41:03 -0500 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAB45488 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:40:28 -0500 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08556; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:38:27 -0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:38:26 -0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: dissertations / papers on tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: hi! 1) is there anyone out there who has written dissertations / papers on tiptree? could any of you who have done so plese get in touch with me via private email? thanks a lot, Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:38:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA159606 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:51:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA21255 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:50:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA74376; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:03:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 58094 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:03:05 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA71308 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:00:40 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:55:31 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id RAA11162; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:56:09 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:56:06 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia Comments: To: Emily@exo.com To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:06:00 -0800 Emily Hackbarth wrote: > > Apologies to anyone on the SFRA list as well who has already heard > > this. Le Guin's The Dispossesses is not a feminist utopia. Instead, > > it is a classic "when the revolution comes everything will be ok > > dearie". It is quite sexist and from a radical feminist point of > > view could be seen as ignoring the real difficulties in favour of > > trivial wrangling between masculinists. > > > > Farah > > > > Care to elaborate? > > Emily Hackbarth > emily@exo.com > http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html > "In a sheet of paper is contained the infinite." > Lu Chi Unfortunately, with great pleasure. The Dispossessed is set in a kibbutz like society (talk to some kibbutzim some day, many of the kibbutz are very patriarchal). The social debate is the classic one about can utopia cope and nurture the individual and the creative force; the creative force being defined as the desire to work as an individual not a team, with the need to lock oneself away from all distractions -- a classically male definition of creativity which wants to see individual genius not collective endeavour. We see much the same debate in Star Trek: This Side of Paradise. The argument usually runs that a peaceful world cannot be a creative world. Le Guin may later try to feminise the ideology by going back to the founder, but my sense is still a very masculinist ideology underlying it all which associats conflict with creativity. The bit in the story which really annoyed me was the stuff about child care. Shevek's mother is made to seem neglectful for leaving her child in a creche whilst she goes off to pursue her career. His father is given no such guilt trip for doing the same thing, and neither is Shevek who is happy to abandon his child to the care of his wife assuming that she will be happy with this arrangment. In addition, one of the *implied* faults of this utopia is its lack of beauty (it *is* a harsh world) but the loss seems to be focussed on the loss of feminity. Why? What was LeGuin trying to say? In the end, Shevek's wife (and I apologise deeply for not being able to remember her name, but she is *so* colourless) is subsumed beneath the personality and creativity of the great man. I can't see much difference for women before or after the revolution. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:38:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA255682 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:35:40 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19572 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:33:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA38488; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:05:28 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 58170 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:05:26 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA43004 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:02:40 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:00:54 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA11614; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:01:34 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:01:31 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:34:15 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > Between them, Slonczewski and Moffett are sort of a two woman Quaker SF > sub-genre all by themselves, aren't they. Yes, we talked aobut > Slonczewski's Quakerism, and I brought in a colleague of mine who is a > Quaker (also a Zen Buddhist and a Jew simultaneously, but that's another > story) to discuss Quakerism and its rather successful history of passive > resistance. > > My favorite scene in Slonczewski's books, by the way, occurs in The Wall > Around Eden. In it a biker gang bent on trouble breaks into a church where a > group of Quakers are holding a meeting. By chance a severely retarded > young woman is standing near the back door holding a baby and, when the > bikers break in, she hands the baby to the head bad guy who's so totally > freaked out by the baby and not knowing what to do with it that it > totally defuses the dangerus situation. I don't know how believable the > scene is, but it works just great in the book. > I had forgotten this scene, but it is a classic piece of Quaker resistance. Don't just say "No", find something else to do. I know that this is a feminist discussion group but my passion is for pacifist fiction. Does anybody have more suggestions? My first two sf books when I was twelve were Brian Stableford's The Florians and Joe Haldeman's All My Sins Remembered, both with strong messages about the need to say no. > Farah, I wish I'd been able to take your history courses as history minor. > All we got to read were G.R. Elton, C.V. Wedgewood, Trevor-Roper and the like. > > Mike Levy ] Thanks for the complement! Today I found myself trying to explain a section from The Wanderground (not a book I like too much) to a group working on the American City. It took a while, but we got there. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:38:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA73018 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:47:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20443 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:43:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA78430; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:07:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 58244 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:07:01 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAB96458 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:06:33 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:05:36 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA12093; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:06:15 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:06:12 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Utopia/Dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:14:02 -0400 Hope Cascio wrote: > From: Hope Cascio > > In a message dated 97-04-19 10:26:55 EDT, you write: > > << The Utopias conversation will go around in circles as long as we do > not ask, Utopia for whom? >> > > Mike Resnick's Kirinyaga stories illustrate your question. Kirinyaga is an > engineered planet for a traditional Kenyan utopia. Problem is, it's not > utopic for some people who live there, such as a little girl who is forbidden > access to education. > > Hope Cascio Thank you, another one for my reading pile! Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:38:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23316 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:27:42 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18745 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:25:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA47270; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:13:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 58538 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:13:04 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA106444 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:11:28 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:10:25 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA12605; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:11:08 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:11:04 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:49:58 -0500 Heather Whipple wrote: > I am not on the SFRA list and don't know what was discussed there (are > many people on both lists? Is repetition a problem?) so I echo Emily's > request to Farrah for elaboration on the statement that _The Dispossessed_ > is unequivocally NOT feminist. While I wouldn't say it is a perfect > feminist utopia, it does question some sexist assumptions. It is > primarily interested in exploring anarchy and not feminism, but this comes > back to the point I raised in my earlier post, that it is not a simple > thing to determine what is feminist and what isn't (i.e. seems to me that > anarchy and some feminisms share some common goals). The book's subtitle, > "An Ambiguous Utopia," suggests that what may be revolutionary (or > feminist), for one person/planet may not be for another--as well as > addressing up front (so to speak) that it might not be utopia at all. > > TD explores structures of power, and while it also contains some > essentialism and does also portray a sexist society, I would still argue > that that focus on power relations and property politics does make it at > least partly feminist. I certainly don't see that Le Guin believes "when > the revolution comes everything will be ok"; her point is exactly the > opposite--that revolution needs to be an on-going process. The problems > on Anarres are precisely *because* people have become complacent. > > *************** > Heather Whipple > hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu My point is not that The Dispossessed has no feminist elements, but that it is not a feminist utopia. I still feel tho' that Le Guin speculates very poorly where women are concerned and that whilst I admire her work, she is very behindhand in this area compared to even many male writers. It simply isn't her strong point: she tends to take up others' ideas and use them well, but her political strengths are elsewhere. farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA70824 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:16:04 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23661 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:13:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA81922; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:20:40 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59123 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:20:39 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA42920 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:16:04 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:14:58 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA13072; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:15:42 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:15:39 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: The Female Man & critical reading To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:57:19 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: what is it, for you, (et al), that changes in a text > when you read for an assignment? > > -lissa > > > An interesting question, followed by why, when asked to review a book, do I sometimes go off the idea of reading it? Some of it I think is just the human reaction to being made to do something. Increasingly I try to let one essay a semester be a totally free choice, and I am always amazed by how creative some (not all) of my students can be. This year students asked to write about a pice of "religious" fiction have ranged from What Katy Did to Stranger in A Strange Land. Last year a student on my American City course used the game Sim City to explain town planning regs. Sometimes freeedom--if directed--can be helpful. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA46662 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:14:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23553 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:12:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA40912; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:22:15 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59326 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:22:13 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA89444 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:18:57 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:18:06 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA13377; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:18:50 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:18:47 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:17:58 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > hi all: > > when i first joined this list, i joined it to find out about what i should > read. i have been reading and reading and reading.. and (no one in my > family knows yet, thank goodness) have spent most (if not all, as of this > morning) of my tax returns (big because of the december birth) on the sci > fi books that you all suggested. > > thus, i blame you all for my current economic status. > > however, i had to stop reading new texts to learn the questions. i found > two books by a former teacher, here at Va Tech: Marlene Barr. the texts: > _Lost in Space_ and _Feminist Fabulation_. > > i read them both, and now have fresh, inquisitive eyes to use when i return > to the fiction. > > my questions to you all are: has anyone else out there read Barr's books? > thoughts? > > and.... does anyone know where she went? i knew her for a whopping 2 > months, fell in love with her way of thinking, and *poof* she was outtahere > before i ever read her fantastic essays, hopefully she's not lost in > space. i'd love to talk to her about these essays. > > -lissa bloomer > > > > Last heard of, Marleen was in Austria. She isn't too thrilled with Virginia I gather, Farah. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA46642 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:13:59 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23608 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:12:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA77020; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:23:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59332 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:23:02 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA60132 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:22:23 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:21:33 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA13728; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:22:17 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:22:14 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: What do (student) readers want (or need)-- long To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: I really liked Timmi's comments (I cut them here simply because they were so long). The list very much corresponded to my reading history. What I only became aware of in my twenties, was how much my expression of my sexuality was shaped by what I had read in sf. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA34876 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:14:00 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23586 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:12:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30652; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:25:31 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59380 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:25:29 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA41904 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:23:34 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:22:11 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA13796; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:22:49 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:22:46 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezesRE: my own take on this To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:50:35 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > > Lissa, for the record, I took your post as an expression of frustration, but > was mindful that it was not something you had said aloud to your > student. So no offense taken here. > > -nalo Ibid. Farah. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA148544 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:16:09 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23657 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:13:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA134126; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:27:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59461 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:27:01 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30668 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:26:06 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:24:46 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA14083; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:25:30 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:25:27 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:48:37 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: > > > i also find it a bit odd that more students at this big ol' technical > > university are not more into sf. ideas? one of my collegues suggests the > > old addage/idea: math is for boys, and reading is for girls. yechchchch. > > (so fem sf should be for everyone, under that ol stereotype, eh?) > > Yech indeed. It boggles my mind how this could be the case, even if > only in a societal context. Unfortunately, I see this often enough in my > own life. I just joined a sci-fi reading group at the local Borders. > There were three women, me, and the man that worked there that was in > charge of the group. Note that this was sci-fi in general, not even > feminist sci-fi. It seemes that one societal imbalance (women in > groups) overcame another (men and sci-fi). > > Perhaps that adage should be more like: reading is NOT for boys and math > is NOT for girls, so feminist sci-fi is for NO traditional people. > > -- Joel VanLaven I don't know what the figures look like in the US, but in the UK there is currently mass panic in some quarters because girls are now beating boys in the maths and science exams taken at 18 years old. And guess what, the rhetoric is *not* about how wonderful it is that girls are doing so well! Only a few more years to wait and it should all be filtering through to the colleges. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA270668 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:14:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23603 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:12:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA104328; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:33:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59704 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:33:04 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23652 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:32:07 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:30:11 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA14605; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:30:51 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:30:47 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Sheryl, could you clarify what appropriate would look like? Do you mean subject matter, length or style? Farah. On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:07:29 -0400 Sheryl Curtis wrote: > From: Sheryl Curtis > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:07:29 -0400 > Subject: SF and Translation > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Hi: > > I'm fairly new to the list and although I enjoy reading you all, I don't > have much time to post. Now I'd like your help. I teach French to English > translation part-time at Concordia University. The course I generally teach > is the introductory course, so there is little focus on translation theory > or history, which is covered in other courses. In addition to the practical > work we do in the course, I generally make my students read one book on > translation theory. I have been thinking of trying something new next fall > and having them read science fiction books or short stories which discuss > translation. I am familiar with the first two Native tongue books and I > believe I read on this list a couple of weeks that there is a third one, for > which I would be grateful for a reference. What I would like to know is if > any of you could give me authors and titles which would be appropriate. If > the material is feminist it would be even better, since the large majority > of translation students and translators are also women. Anyway, any help > will be appreciated. > > Sheryl C. > Montreal, Quebec From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA133264 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:25:35 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24968 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:24:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAB43524; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:37:27 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59831 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:37:26 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA75060 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:35:17 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:34:03 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA14864; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:34:46 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:34:43 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:47:28 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > > >NH: Do you know what they do read? > > hi nalo et al, > in my questionnaire/contract i ask my students (freshpersons) what they > read... usually in a class of 25, 5 have never read a novel all the way > through, 15 of them (all young men) read Stephen King, Tom Clancy, and > Michael Crichton... and the young women (the 7-10 -- women are a minority > still here, though not by much) usually report texts that they read as > assignments (Hamlet, Macbeth, Jane Eyre, 1984, Scarlet Letter.... canon > stuff). of 25, about 5 seem to be avid readers. by the end of the semester, > i think i have changed that -- perhaps my proudest aspect of teaching. > > if i'm lucky, i'll get one student who has read sci-fi. and it's usually a > young male who reads Heinlein. (one of whom introduced me to the works of > Giger -- the artist for the movie "Alien")(perhaps the only visual artist > who could be labelled science fiction feminist???)(anyone know of > others???) > > i wish wish wish i had more students who came to the class as avid > readers-- and sci-fi readers. it's one of my goals to change this. > > -lissa bloomer > > > These days I find I am lucky if they have ever heard of Heinlein (the only one recently was a student who wanted to write on sf writers perceptions of the city and whose only suggestion was Heinlein -- I encouraged him to find another topic). William Gibson and Philip K. Dick are the most common, but most talk about tv. sf and I am starting to build a small Babylon 5 fan group amongst my students. (Plug time -- if anyone is interested, I am running a conference on Babylon 5, 13 and 14 December 1997 in York England, contact me off the list if you are interested). In Britain, if all else fails, mention Terry Pratchett. I realise he is not so popular in the states, but here students apply to college saying that they like reading "Jane Austen/Thomas Hardy *and* Terry Pratchett". You just know what were the set authors this year. Farah > > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA89902 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:16:08 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24253 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:17:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA50910; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:37:23 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 59826 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:37:22 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA104370 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:36:38 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:35:30 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA14962; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:36:13 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:36:10 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:55:48 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > From: lissa bloomer > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:55:48 -0500 > Subject: Re: Barr's works > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Mike Levy wrote of M. Barr: > > >She's a fine critic, though I wish she were a better prose stylist. > > > > hmm. well, she's a bit hard to follow, but after her 3rd essay, i found i > began to think like her writing. (eek?) i'm thinking that she may write > less linear than writers of the past. helene cixous suggests that many > women writers write cyclically and loopy --- curvy, if you will, which > mirrors our body consciousness. i like this idea! (though it suggests some > major problems, i know.) > > can you suggest another fem sci fi critic that works as a better prose stylist? > > -lissa bloomer > > Joanna Russ and Sarah Lefanu also see an article by Amanda Boulter on James Tiptree Jr. in a recent issue of Foundation. One of the best pieces of feminist sf criticism I have read in a while. Farah. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA70898 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:16:05 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23679 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:13:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA50486; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:55:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 60233 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:55:07 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA106592 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:53:42 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:49:00 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA16056; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:49:40 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:49:36 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 22:54:53 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > types.) Kim Stanley Robinson's _Pacific Edge._ I haven't read the rest > of the trilogy, and I don't know what the hell I'm waiting for. I find > his sheer wordcraft enchanting, and for the rest, (pace anyone whose > descriptions might be more accurate than mine) it's an eco-conscious > novel that paints the universe in a drop of water by detailing the > personal and political conflicts amongst the members of a small town > council in a utopic (California? I learned a different geography than > American). Sounds dry, but it's juicy. And, I think, humanist--is that > a word?--in that it speaks to feminism, and looks at ageism and sizeism Kim Stanley Robinson's trilogy isn't chronological. The other two are dystopic alternative universes. (check bookshel for titles -- sorry). Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:40:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA209898 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:37:06 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25784 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:32:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15230; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 60329 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:10 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAB74244 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:57:55 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:56:58 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA16637; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:57:42 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:57:39 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:46:43 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > From: lissa bloomer > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:46:43 -0500 > Subject: what students read and what should we teach? > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > in response to nalo -- and also a bunch of other stuff: > > eye-yi-yi. i have so much reading to do. egads. i've never heard of -Bone > Dance- so i'll give it a try. you know, this sounds really really really > terrible, and i promised myself 7 years ago when i first started teaching > that if i ever muttered the words i should quit immediately..........but... > here are the words... i'm beginning to tire of trying fem works in a > freshman comp class. i'm not complaining - i love my job and the students > -- i think i'm obsessively worrying as constructive procrastination since i > have papers to grade. however, it's just that it's first of all damaging to > my own persona, since it's hard to teach books that are so close to home, > so personal, and so religiously a part of my core beliefs. ya know? it's > hard for me to distance. for example, i used marilyn robinson's > _Housekeeping_ (which Marlene Barr would certainly call "feminist > fabulation", since Ruth and Sylvie both leave ((transcend)) the patriarchal > world for another) in 1105, and felt quite emotionally drained. i wanted > them all to love it as much as me, and when some didn't, it hurt. i want to > use _Momaday_ in a class, but i'm not sure i can well. there are, maybe, > 20 books that i'm not sure i could ever use in a classroom because they are > so close to me. (the kind of books that i want to match the paint of the > covers to paint my bedroom... the kind of books that smell of the bottom of > my sachel...) and, strangely enough, most, if not all, of these books are > feminist and of the sf ilk. and the more i read, the more i find i cannot > share in the freshman english classroom. too scared? yes. and it sucks. > that i have to, as nalo says, "bait and switch" is terrible. that if i use > Ursula Le Guin's "Carrier Bag of Fiction" in the classroom and then am > assumed a male-hating-radical-feminist-who > is-going-to-automatically-fail-all-men is too. > > how does one teach a feminist sci fi book????? how does one teach a book > that one loves without going insane? (( i know the "one should only teach > the books that one loves so that one will be motivated" answer... and i > know the "jesus, get some distance" answer.... and i know the "you must > share all the books, you selfish geek" answer....and the "you should be > teaching an optional class in an arts program" answer...and the "you need > to go pay for your voice and get your damn phd" answer...)) > > could you share your "delaney shelf" with anyone? ((and did you write that > you HEARD him SAY something? wow. did you meet him?))((Le Guin and Delany > are gods.)) > > > -lissa bloomer > > > I really do sympathise with the above, and it is not just feminism as such. My male colleagues think that teaching westerns is mainstream but teaching musicals would be feminine (Thoroughly Modern Millie is still one of the most popular films I have ever shown). I am currently having problems with a mature student. She is very good, very bright, but continuously saying that texts, both fiction and non-fiction are "too feminist". I keep pointing out that many other texts have other axes to grind but it is hard work. However, today I had an unexpected pleasure. As part of the course I am teaching on The American City, I set a passage from Sarah and Elizabeth Delany's Having Our Say. The class positively glowed... they loved the extract, both male and female students and have all bounced off to read more, and this despite the strong feminism that comes from both women in their different ways. Being told that they were related to Samuel Delany, whose short story they read the week before, sent some of them back to that. Sometimes it can really work. It is worth all the knocks. I currently have a third year student (in her fifties) who started off very hostile to feminism and has come to the point where she is reading feminist literature. The problem I think is not so much the freshman classes, but if you find yourself in a position where you are not teaching these students at a later date, so that one cannot either see or promote any change that may take place. Farah. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:39:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA288782 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:13:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23554 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:12:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA127478; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:01:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 60358 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:01:04 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA48004 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:59:14 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:58:11 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA16727; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:58:56 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:58:53 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Barr's works To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:51:28 -0500 lissa bloomer wrote: > > if you're not wearing pants, it's time to go home. > Thank you, but I like my skirts, my make up and my long nails...why the insistence on yet *more conformity? Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:41:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA51020 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:32:21 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01875 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:29:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27826; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:37:48 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 61369 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:37:47 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA58776 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:35:03 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:05:44 +0100 Received: from kmpc13 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id TAA17083; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:05:12 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:05:09 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Nalo's short story approach is the one I adopt. Very few of my students are literature specialists (we run two american studies strands, literature and history and for some unknown reason have trouble recruiting for the literature strand). I don't know if one has to have passion to teach. Sometimes I think things will be controversial, and they aren't and other times am really surprised by the shockability of my class. This term I have a group who have trouble uttering the word "prostitute". I have also found that, for me, what works once, is not guaranteed to work again. I have few "sure fire" winners to offer. However, I would suggest that if you are teaching sf as sf (rather than the way I do when it is simply interesting literature for a particular theme) I would recommend the first chapter of Edward James' Science Fiction in the Twentieth Century (Oxford Univ. Press) which talks about how to read sf. My class brought home to me today just how difficult it can be. I had totally forgottem Farah. On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:36:48 -0400 Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > From: Nalo Hopkinson > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:36:48 -0400 > Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > NH: Geez. I don't know that I could teach at all, not this stuff (used to > teach aerobics, but somehow that's different, y'know? :) ). I'm only > theorizing here, but I think I would hide a little, only teach work for > its fem or race or language or whatever content in courses that > specifically stated that as an objective. That way I'd have students who > were there because they're interested. For more general courses, I'd > probably still teach works about which I was passionate, but try to--and I > don't even know if one can do this--cull the discussion out of whatever > aspects of the work the students themselves found worthy of comment. I > think that if I knew there would be resistance, I might try teaching short > stories. A quick read so the students wouldn't be facing 300 pages of > something they think they're sure to hate. I might also try to use what > they're already reading to pull out the type of discussion that gets them > thinking. Imagine a feminist take on _Jurassic Park!_ I might try > different formats; for instance, I love the comic "Love and Rockets." I > think younger people (I'm 36) would relate to the underground, > teen-as-outsider feel of it, and while you're relating to that, you can't > help but also think about the issues of sexuality it raises (the main > characters are bi); you can't help but suck up something of the Latino > perspective from which it's written. I might try to haul a vcr or a film > projector into class and show some of the more underground, independent > stuff, or do a class on the 'Alien' movies. And if they hated the things > I loved, I think I would back off snail-like and go show them to someone > who did love them. My friends all tend to be extremely bookish, though > not necessarily about the same books that I am. And I think that > ultimately, my passion for the work would only catch fire with a tiny > group of students each year. But hell, maybe they'd remember the song and > dance act with the vcr and the comics fondly, and maybe its effects would > filter into their lives in unconscious ways. > > -nalo > > On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > > > in response to nalo -- and also a bunch of other stuff: > > > > eye-yi-yi. i have so much reading to do. egads. i've never heard of -Bone > > Dance- so i'll give it a try. you know, this sounds really really really > > terrible, and i promised myself 7 years ago when i first started teaching > > that if i ever muttered the words i should quit immediately..........but... > > here are the words... i'm beginning to tire of trying fem works in a > > freshman comp class. i'm not complaining - i love my job and the students > > -- i think i'm obsessively worrying as constructive procrastination since i > > have papers to grade. however, it's just that it's first of all damaging to > > my own persona, since it's hard to teach books that are so close to home, > > so personal, and so religiously a part of my core beliefs. ya know? it's > > hard for me to distance. for example, i used marilyn robinson's > > _Housekeeping_ (which Marlene Barr would certainly call "feminist > > fabulation", since Ruth and Sylvie both leave ((transcend)) the patriarchal > > world for another) in 1105, and felt quite emotionally drained. i wanted > > them all to love it as much as me, and when some didn't, it hurt. i want to > > use _Momaday_ in a class, but i'm not sure i can well. there are, maybe, > > 20 books that i'm not sure i could ever use in a classroom because they are > > so close to me. (the kind of books that i want to match the paint of the > > covers to paint my bedroom... the kind of books that smell of the bottom of > > my sachel...) and, strangely enough, most, if not all, of these books are > > feminist and of the sf ilk. and the more i read, the more i find i cannot > > share in the freshman english classroom. too scared? yes. and it sucks. > > that i have to, as nalo says, "bait and switch" is terrible. that if i use > > Ursula Le Guin's "Carrier Bag of Fiction" in the classroom and then am > > assumed a male-hating-radical-feminist-who > > is-going-to-automatically-fail-all-men is too. > > > > how does one teach a feminist sci fi book????? how does one teach a book > > that one loves without going insane? (( i know the "one should only teach > > the books that one loves so that one will be motivated" answer... and i > > know the "jesus, get some distance" answer.... and i know the "you must > > share all the books, you selfish geek" answer....and the "you should be > > teaching an optional class in an arts program" answer...and the "you need > > to go pay for your voice and get your damn phd" answer...)) > > > > could you share your "delaney shelf" with anyone? ((and did you write that > > you HEARD him SAY something? wow. did you meet him?))((Le Guin and Delany > > are gods.)) > > > > > > -lissa bloomer > > > > > > > > > > > > if you're not wearing pants, it's time to go home. > > > > elisabeth bloomer > > instructor, english > > virginia tech > > ebloomer@vt.edu > > 540.231.2445 > > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:40:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23400 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:50:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27518 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:49:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA65290; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:17:12 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 60772 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:17:10 -0500 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (mail.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.51]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA100660 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:15:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16298 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:15:10 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:15:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: teaching femsf was: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, lissa bloomer wrote: > how does one teach a feminist sci fi book????? how does one teach a book > that one loves without going insane? (( i know the "one should only teach > the books that one loves so that one will be motivated" answer... and i > know the "jesus, get some distance" answer.... and i know the "you must > share all the books, you selfish geek" answer....and the "you should be > teaching an optional class in an arts program" answer...and the "you need > to go pay for your voice and get your damn phd" answer...)) egads. I don't know. Might the feminist part of a feminist sf book just teach itself? I guess it depends on the book. In Butler's _Parable of the Sower_ I'd think you could talk about the play with gender roles without ever saying the word "feminist" (or perhaps "womanist" is more appropriate). But that response just plays to the preconception that feminist is a dirty word, despite the fact that most people--men and women--seem to agree with its basic premise of equality. I'm a teaching apprentice right now for a psychology of women course, though at a very liberal school with a lot of interested students enrolled in the class. It is still a concern, though, how to talk about the reality many women face--for example, today's topic was "wife abuse"--without seeming to demonize men or create a hostile environment for the men in the class. Suddenly the "science of psychology" (already a bit flimsy) seems utterly politicized--just as much feminist fiction seems to many to be too politicized to be good literature. So, for now, is it permissible and necessary to focus on the traditional criteria of good literature, and ignore the political components while including novels that span the political range? Might just their presence be enough to call the unstated ideologies of the other novels into the open--maybe thru character and plot comparisons? Or does that undermine the very novels that you are trying to present? As to teaching the books you love, Lissa, I can only share my experiences as a student. Generally, the professor's love is conveyed. Luckily, however, I have never had to take a course that I didn't choose--so perhaps I'd be one of your more receptive students rather than the hypothetical norm. I now share my professor's love and respect for Dante's Inferno, for example, which I probably never would have discovered on my own, nor understood even on the few surface levels that I now do. (sorry for the awful english!) But those professors also taught other books well, and perhaps more objectively. And, in the end, I value both aspects. The enthusiasm teaches me to love a text, and maybe a genre or field. The critical eye teaches me how to learn, how to read, how to judge. So I guess the perfect course, or at least the perfect education, would have both at various times. In any case, Lissa, please don't quit! A professor thinking about these kinds of things is the kind of professor I'd love to have. :) Andrea Klein From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:41:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA70374 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:31:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01863 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:29:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA30540; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:46:51 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 61639 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:46:50 -0500 Received: from rizzo.infobahnos.com (rizzo.infobahnos.com [205.236.175.6]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA43096 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:45:09 -0500 Received: from ppp-0125.infobahnos.com (ppp-0125.infobahnos.com [204.19.114.35]) by rizzo.infobahnos.com (8.7.6/A/UX 3.1) with SMTP id OAA23841 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:45:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: maddog@rizzo.infobahnos.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704221845.OAA23841@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:45:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: >Sheryl, > >could you clarify what appropriate would look like? Do you mean >subject matter, length or style? > >Farah. > > > Sorry about that. I guess by appropriate, I meant stuff dealing with translation as done by people and not some magical computer which manages to do everything flawlessly, but there's really no explanation as to how the thing got programmed. I'm also interested in material in which shows the conflicts which can arise when peoples not speaking the same language come into contact and how they deal with language issues. Native Tongue and the Lingster series look in part at the training of translators and that stuff is fine for my purpose since I am trying to show my students that bilingualism is just the first step towards becoming a translator. If there is any more material along those lines I would be interested in knowing about it. I guess I'm also interested in material on how ordinary people, as opposed to trained translators and language experts, deal with language barriers when they come into contact. Sorry if this sounds a little diorganized, I'm having a stressful day and am now off to take my 7-yr-old to the doctor. Thanks for any help. S. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:41:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA66468 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:31:59 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01738 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:28:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA52382; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:49:17 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 61714 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:49:16 -0500 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (mail.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.51]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA103308 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:47:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA22720 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:47:43 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:47:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:48:37 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: > > Perhaps that adage should be more like: reading is NOT for boys > and math > > is NOT for girls, so feminist sci-fi is for NO traditional people. > > > > -- Joel VanLaven > > > I don't know what the figures look like in the US, but in the UK there is > currently mass panic in some quarters because girls are now beating > boys in the maths and science exams taken at 18 years old. And > guess what, the rhetoric is *not* about how wonderful it is that girls > are doing so well! Only a few more years to wait and it should all be > filtering through to the colleges. > > Farah > Wish I had the stats, but apparently here in the US girls DO do better in high school math in terms of grades--girls have better GPAs generally--but still trail in the SATs. (For non-USers, the SATs are used as one of our main predictors for college success.) Amidst the constant debate over the validity of the SATs, the verbal section (as well as the math) keeps being reviewed for biases--ethnic, gender, class, whatever. In addition to other changes, the verbal section was revised to include more scientific readings in the reading comprehension in an attempt to equalize the genders (girls were and still do score higher, but the scores are now closer). I'm not sure what went/goes on with the math-section discussion--might it be gender-biased? I don't know. The above info comes from Matlin's psyc of women text. It might be loaded, I don't know. No better way to lie than with statistics. Hedges & Nowell (1995) assessed test scores b/n 1971 and 1992 and found that in large-scale surveys, high school boys score on average higher on the math sections, and/but show more variability in scores--that is, there are more males than females at both the high end of the spectrum and the low end. One limitation of Hedges & Nowell's approach is that the scores from the earlier years would be recording students who were not required to take a certain number of math classes. In 1970, Sells found that high schools were serving as a "critical filter," keeping many women from careers in math and science by not requiring math courses, rendering more women than men (who opted to continue the math) ineligible for college math and science (50% of Berkeley men had 4yrs of HS math, 8% of women). Thus, the girls in the earlier studies might have been less prepared for the tests--and the tests then reflected experience not ability. So, I don't know if the gender gap in math scores is narrowing or not, I'd presume it is. It definately is in terms of math and science courses in college. Anyway, sorry to be long-winded...thought some might be unfamiliar and interested. The point is simply that assumptions of biological differences are being questioned. Though that seems a redundant point to make to a feminist listserver. Andrea Klein From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:40:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA235144 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:20:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01094 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:21:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA35994; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:01:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 61888 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:01:04 -0500 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (mail.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.51]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA117100 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:00:39 -0500 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA25030 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:00:37 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:00:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > The American City, I set a passage from Sarah and Elizabeth > Delany's Having Our Say. The class positively glowed... they loved > the extract, both male and female students and have all bounced off > to read more, and this despite the strong feminism that comes from > both women in their different ways. Being told that they were related > to Samuel Delany, whose short story they read the week before, sent > some of them back to that. Sometimes it can really work. I love Sadie and Bessie Delany too. _Having Our Say_ is beautifully done, mostly because it paints these women so fantastically. I had no idea they were related to Samuel Delany. How so? Andrea Klein From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:42:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA276152 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:33:52 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07537 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:29:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA60818; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:51:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 63302 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:51:10 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA44054 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:49:11 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17422; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:51:24 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: teaching femsf was: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: [snip] > I'm a teaching apprentice right now for a psychology of women course, > though at a very liberal school with a lot of interested students enrolled > in the class. It is still a concern, though, how to talk about the > reality many women face--for example, today's topic was "wife > abuse"--without seeming to demonize men or create a hostile environment > for the men in the class. Suddenly the "science of psychology" (already a > bit flimsy) seems utterly politicized--just as much feminist fiction seems > to many to be too politicized to be good literature. [snip] Only over-simplification demonizes men. I sincerely doubt that many rational, intelligent people think that all men are evil, violent, and misogynistic, however radical thier feminist viewpoint. It seems like many people are not able to handle anything more complicated than something like "Men are scum" or "Women aren't good at math." Even in _A_Door_Into_Ocean_ with it's all-female utopia, there were good men. (at least, I read it that way :). I think it is quite reasonable to isolate ourselves from the larger groups we are members of as long as we really truly take lessons learned from studies of the larger group and use them to work on ourselves as individuals. Women and men should be taught about ways in which women have become ensnared in the position of victim, and men have become victimizers in order that all can attempt to avoid being either part of such a relathionship and attempt to prevent such relationships in their society. As long as the teacher isn't sexist and/or over-simplifying (certainly doesn't sound like it in this case), if men take these things in an overly-simplistic way it is their own sexist and/or over-simplifying fault. So, in an open environment, I say go for it. If anyone takes it the "wrong way," deal with it and them then. In my opinion, they will need to learn to deal with complexity with openness and resilience anyway. In fact, I think that that is probably a better lesson to learn than almost any other. -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:42:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA115352 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:48:19 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09154 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:46:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA100728; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:26:51 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64015 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:26:49 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29686 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:25:38 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA11317 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:18:44 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970422152805.35779fba@academic.truman.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:26:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: At 18:11 4/22/97 BST, you wrote: >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:49:58 -0500 Heather Whipple wrote: >I echo Emily's >> request to Farrah for elaboration on the statement that _The >Dispossessed_ >> is unequivocally NOT feminist. While I wouldn't say it is a perfect >> feminist utopia, it does question some sexist assumptions. It is >> primarily interested in exploring anarchy and not feminism, but this >comes >> back to the point I raised in my earlier post, that it is not a simple >> thing to determine what is feminist and what isn't (i.e. seems to me >that >> anarchy and some feminisms share some common goals). The >book's subtitle, >> "An Ambiguous Utopia," suggests that what may be revolutionary >(or >> feminist), for one person/planet may not be for another--as well as >> addressing up front (so to speak) that it might not be utopia at all. >> >> TD explores structures of power, and while it also contains some >> essentialism and does also portray a sexist society, I would still >argue >> that that focus on power relations and property politics does make >it at >> least partly feminist. I certainly don't see that Le Guin believes >"when >> the revolution comes everything will be ok"; her point is exactly the >> opposite--that revolution needs to be an on-going process. The >problems >> on Anarres are precisely *because* people have become >complacent. >> >> *************** >> Heather Whipple >> hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu > > >My point is not that The Dispossessed has no feminist elements, but >that it is not a feminist utopia. I still feel tho' that Le Guin speculates >very poorly where women are concerned and that whilst I admire her >work, she is very behindhand in this area compared to even many >male writers. It simply isn't her strong point: she tends to take up >others' ideas and use them well, but her political strengths are >elsewhere. > >farah > I don't see _The Dispossessed_ as anyone's "utopia." Le Guin calls it "ambiguous," and I would agree. Certainly women don't get treated worse on Anarres than men do but men don't get treated very well. No individuality allowed (if it looks like a "propertarian" individuality). Very little humor. Conditions on Urras may be worse -- no one on Anarres starves unless they all do, for example, and the blatant antifeminism we see among the elite doesn't occur there either, but the rigidity of the thinking patterns and the demand that everyone conform to the collective ethic simply demonstrates the reverse of American individuality. And I think that's why Le Guin calls it "ambiguous." No extreme works very well -- we may be reaching the extreme of alienation that comes with individualism carried to the nth degree -- but the kind of collective pattern followed, say, in Japan or China, where "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down" is pretty hard on the non-conformists (and it doesn't take much to attain that designation). If we assume that a female utopia achieves gender equality in jobs and pay and respect and opportunity and general honor, then we must assume a utopia where motherhood (which is the woman's privilege) gets honored -- whether it's paid or not. So we can't call the US any kind of female utopia, no matter how much better things are for women than they were a few dozen years ago. If we insist that a female utopia allows women to treat men the way men have treated women for so long, we envision a reversal -- different in kind, but not in character -- from Le Guin's The Dispossessed. Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:42:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA68932 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:50:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09534 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:50:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA107376; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:31:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64084 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:31:10 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30682 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:30:42 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA12745 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:23:48 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970422153324.3577aaf2@academic.truman.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:31:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: At 17:56 4/22/97 BST, you wrote: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:06:00 -0800 Emily Hackbarth wrote: > [snip] > >The bit in the story which really annoyed me was the stuff about child >care. Shevek's mother is made to seem neglectful for leaving her >child in a creche whilst she goes off to pursue her career. His father >is given no such guilt trip for doing the same thing, and neither is >Shevek who is happy to abandon his child to the care of his wife >assuming that she will be happy with this arrangment. > >In addition, one of the *implied* faults of this utopia is its lack of >beauty (it *is* a harsh world) but the loss seems to be focussed on >the loss of feminity. Why? What was LeGuin trying to say? > >In the end, Shevek's wife (and I apologise deeply for not being able >to remember her name, but she is *so* colourless) is subsumed >beneath the personality and creativity of the great man. I can't see >much difference for women before or after the revolution. > > >Farah > Takver -- I find her fascinating, and gave a paper on her once. I found, to my surprise, that at least one person in the audience saw her as a greedy (grease around the mouth) childlike person, with no personality. I saw her as a brave, vital, contributing member of the society -- who could say she had been wrong in a very important matter, and take long separations from Shevek when they became necessary. That's something I have experienced myself, and believe me, it's not easy, especially when you have full responsibility for the children. Yes, the kids are in a kibbutz-like situation, so she doesn't have to hold down a job AND do all the housework-baby-tending etc., but she DOES have to manage when everyone around her is shunning her and her kids, and giving them all a hard time. Utopia, indeed! And she does not give in under that kind of pressure, either. A brave strong woman. Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:43:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA70346 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:28:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12999 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:26:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29496; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:11:25 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64679 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:11:23 -0500 Received: from io.uwinnipeg.ca (io.uwinnipeg.ca [142.132.1.12]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA41760 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:59:09 -0500 Received: from coned.uwinnipeg.ca (coned.uwinnipeg.ca [142.132.15.2]) by io.uwinnipeg.ca (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13113 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:01:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CONT_ED_ADMIN/SpoolDir by coned.uwinnipeg.ca (Mercury 1.21); 22 Apr 97 15:59:07 gmt+6 Received: from SpoolDir by CONT_ED_ADMIN (Mercury 1.21); 22 Apr 97 15:56:50 gmt+6 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-ID: <6437F80807@coned.uwinnipeg.ca> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:56:41 CDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mary Ann Beavis, IUS" Organization: The University of Winnipeg Subject: urban feminist utopias To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: I am interested in any stories or interpretation dealing with feminist utopian visions of the city - does anyone know of any material in this area??? I would really appreciate your suggestions. Mary Ann Beavis Institute of Urban Studies The University of Winnipeg mary@coned.uwinnipeg.ca From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:43:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA97466 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:20:58 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12310 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:19:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23414; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:47:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64373 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:47:05 -0500 Received: from ns2.snni.com (root@ns2.snni.com [165.113.174.13]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA103798 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:46:20 -0500 Received: from emily.snni.com (ppp32.snni.com [165.113.174.132]) by ns2.snni.com (8.8.0/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA32139 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:47:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <199704222047.NAA32139@ns2.snni.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:43:34 -0800 Reply-To: Emily@EXO.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Emily Hackbarth Organization: very little Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: > Sorry about that. I guess by appropriate, I meant stuff dealing > with translation as done by people and not some magical computer > which manages to do everything flawlessly, but there's really no > explanation as to how the thing got programmed. I'm also interested > in material in which shows the conflicts which can arise when > peoples not speaking the same language come into contact and how > they deal with language issues. Try _Hellspark_ by Janet Kagan. I know it's around here somewhere but I can't find it so here's what someone else had to say about it at amazon.com: "This book is one of my favorites. It is SO good, I wish there were many more books available by this author instead of only 1 or 2. It is one of the few books I know in a sub-genre of SF I think of as 'linguistic' fiction. Not only does this book introduce an interesting universe very unlike your run-of-the-mill galactic empire, but a whole host of unusual concepts and new ways of looking at the world as well as inter-personal relationships." And another one: "Kagan takes a hint of Uhura's Song -- when in Rome speak as the Roman's do -- and jumps off into a myriad of new cultures and belief systems. This work builds not just a new world, but a new universe, with all the little communication problems of today (body language, inflection, etc) and shows how important it can be to not just speak the language audibly, but also physically. At the same time, she tackles the question of "what is sentience?" One of my all time favorite books, one I've read again and again." What I do remember about it is that it's an awfully fun book with a very cool heroine. Emily Hackbarth emily@exo.com http://exo.com/~emily/beadworker.html "In a sheet of paper is contained the infinite." Lu Chi From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:44:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA199994 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:27:09 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18189 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:26:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA58860; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:53:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 65880 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:53:04 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA58778 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:52:54 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13221; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:54:28 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970422152805.35779fba@academic.truman.edu> Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Martha Bartter wrote: [snip] > If we assume that a female utopia achieves gender equality in jobs and > pay and respect and opportunity and general honor, then we must assume > a utopia where motherhood (which is the woman's privilege) gets honored > -- whether it's paid or not. Really, motherhood is the woman's privilege? I will assume that you mean something more than just biological motherhood. Would you say that motherhood is also the woman's responsibility? Or, is it your opinion that women ought to have complete rights with respect to parenting and share the responsibility. I would like to suggest that that position is quite possibly very sexist. I would think that a society that really did honor parenting (I puposefully changed the wording) would probably restrict it to those best suited to it (like in herland) (of all sexes available). I would like to go on record here as having the opinion that women can take all the roles that men can and vice versa. In my opinion, women can be mathematicians, politicains, fathers, soldiers, sexist pigs, and rapists, just as men can be poets, feminists, mothers, pacificts, housewizes, and victims. We are all people. That overrides everything else. I will let no one, female, male, or other prevent me from raising children, cooking, sewing, knitting, reading what I want, to, playing with dolls, epsousing feminism, and so on, on the basis of my being male. When I even consider the possibility that I might be so restricted, my heart speeds up, I start breathing heavily, and my chest and throat constrict with agitation. Such activities have not been "honored" in the past. However, some of us rail at all restrictions and dividing distinctions. >... So we can't call the US any kind of female > utopia, no matter how much better things are for women than they were a > few dozen years ago. If we insist that a female utopia allows women to > treat men the way men have treated women for so long, we envision a > reversal -- different in kind, but not in character -- from Le Guin's > The Dispossessed. A female utopia? I personally am more interested in feminist utopias. And yes, I do think that there is a very large difference. Reverse sexism and I'll be fighting against it still, just as I hope many female feminists would. It certainly doesn't hurt to consider societies based on such reversals, and I even find doing so enjoyable, but I really don't consider them to be utopian. I consider them to be either dystopian or "ambiguous." Societies based on different sexes altogether like _A_Door_Into_Ocean_ or _Herland_ are different however, because in such societies there is no group being discriminated against. Anyway, that's how I feel, -- Joel From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:44:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA165020 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:33:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18722 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:34:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA88952; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:43:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 65412 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:43:01 -0500 Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.5.136]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA92580 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:31:04 -0500 Received: from LOUISE (kamov35.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.43.35]) by wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id PAA23203 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:28:26 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-SYMPA (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <335D3C00.66E2@sk.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:30:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Clarke girls Subject: Ursula LeGuin To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hi I was talking to an Anthropology grad student who like Ursula LeGuin because of the influences she got from her father who is a well-known Anthropologist... I didn't know this about her. Can anyone fill me in? Thanks Jacquie From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:46:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA55906 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:21:31 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27302 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:11:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA116968; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:45:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 68913 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:45:04 -0500 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA60982 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:43:16 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA00578 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970422204214_572822183@emout14.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:42:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Thank you To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to everyone for your congratulations (I've just got back to Seattle after a six day trip). I have to say it gave me a *massive* kick to climb up on the podium and accept a Nebula for a book all about sewage, and dykes disporting themselves. Tee hee. SLOW RIVER: the little book that could. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:46:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA52752 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:14:08 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02642 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:14:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA65424; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:37:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 70310 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:37:04 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA65396 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:36:48 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 22 Apr 97 22:37 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:37:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: BTW, Sheryl; Suzette Elgin heads up something called "The Linguistics and Science Fiction Network," for those who are interested in both (I realise that linguistics is not translation). E-mail to: ocls@sibylline.com -nalo On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > Sheryl, > > could you clarify what appropriate would look like? Do you mean > subject matter, length or style? > > Farah. > > > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:07:29 -0400 Sheryl Curtis wrote: > > > From: Sheryl Curtis > > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:07:29 -0400 > > Subject: SF and Translation > > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > > > Hi: > > > > I'm fairly new to the list and although I enjoy reading you all, I don't > > have much time to post. Now I'd like your help. I teach French to > English > > translation part-time at Concordia University. The course I > generally teach > > is the introductory course, so there is little focus on translation > theory > > or history, which is covered in other courses. In addition to the > practical > > work we do in the course, I generally make my students read one > book on > > translation theory. I have been thinking of trying something new > next fall > > and having them read science fiction books or short stories which > discuss > > translation. I am familiar with the first two Native tongue books and > I > > believe I read on this list a couple of weeks that there is a third > one, for > > which I would be grateful for a reference. What I would like to know > is if > > any of you could give me authors and titles which would be > appropriate. If > > the material is feminist it would be even better, since the large > majority > > of translation students and translators are also women. Anyway, > any help > > will be appreciated. > > > > Sheryl C. > > Montreal, Quebec > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:46:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA61664 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:18:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02803 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:18:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA30620; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:43:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 70359 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:43:03 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA88938 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 21:41:55 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 22 Apr 97 22:41 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:41:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: NH: His aunts. -nalo On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Andrea L. Klein wrote: > On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > The American City, I set a passage from Sarah and Elizabeth > > Delany's Having Our Say. The class positively glowed... they loved > > the extract, both male and female students and have all bounced off > > to read more, and this despite the strong feminism that comes from > > both women in their different ways. Being told that they were related > > to Samuel Delany, whose short story they read the week before, sent > > some of them back to that. Sometimes it can really work. > > I love Sadie and Bessie Delany too. _Having Our Say_ is beautifully > done, mostly because it paints these women so fantastically. > I had no idea they were related to Samuel Delany. How so? > > Andrea Klein > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:48:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA30912 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:49:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15111 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:51:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA117026; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:33:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 1298 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:33:00 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA109382 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:32:18 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:30:49 +0100 Received: from kmpc14 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) for id LAA06739; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:31:32 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:31:30 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: dissertations / papers on tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:38:26 -0200 Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira wrote: > hi! > > 1) is there anyone out there who has written dissertations / papers on > tiptree? could any of you who have done so plese get in touch with me via > private email? > > thanks a lot, > > Antonio Marcos Pereira There are two articles on or dealing with Tiptree that I know of. My own, in Foundation 59 simply dealing with six American writers of whom Tiptree is one, and another (brilliant) article by Amanda Boulter in a later issue (I can't remember the issue). Are you writing a bibliography? Farah Mendlesohn From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:48:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA44670 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:56:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15193 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:57:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA43142; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:43:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 1325 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:43:00 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA43064 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:42:05 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:40:58 +0100 Received: from kmpc14 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id LAA08011; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:41:41 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:41:37 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:47:41 -0400 Andrea L. Klein wrote: > From: Andrea L. Klein > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:47:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: critical reading and island breezes > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:48:37 -0400 Joel VanLaven wrote: > > > > Perhaps that adage should be more like: reading is NOT for boys > > and math > > > is NOT for girls, so feminist sci-fi is for NO traditional people. > > > > > > -- Joel VanLaven > > > > > > I don't know what the figures look like in the US, but in the UK there is > > currently mass panic in some quarters because girls are now beating > > boys in the maths and science exams taken at 18 years old. And > > guess what, the rhetoric is *not* about how wonderful it is that girls > > are doing so well! Only a few more years to wait and it should all be > > filtering through to the colleges. > > > > Farah > > > > Wish I had the stats, but apparently here in the US girls DO do better in > high school math in terms of grades--girls have better GPAs generally--but > still trail in the SATs. (For non-USers, the SATs are used as one of our > main predictors for college success.) Amidst the constant debate over the > validity of the SATs, the verbal section (as well as the math) keeps being > reviewed for biases--ethnic, gender, class, whatever. In addition to > other changes, the verbal section was revised to include more scientific > readings in the reading comprehension in an attempt to equalize the > genders (girls were and still do score higher, but the scores are now > closer). I'm not sure what went/goes on with the math-section > discussion--might it be gender-biased? I don't know. > > The above info comes from Matlin's psyc of women text. It might be > loaded, I don't know. No better way to lie than with statistics. > > Hedges & Nowell (1995) assessed test scores b/n 1971 and 1992 and found > that in large-scale surveys, high school boys score on average higher on > the math sections, and/but show more variability in scores--that is, there > are more males than females at both the high end of the spectrum and the > low end. > > One limitation of Hedges & Nowell's approach is that the scores from the > earlier years would be recording students who were not required to take a > certain number of math classes. In 1970, Sells found that high schools > were serving as a "critical filter," keeping many women from careers in > math and science by not requiring math courses, rendering more women than > men (who opted to continue the math) ineligible for college math and > science (50% of Berkeley men had 4yrs of HS math, 8% of women). Thus, the > girls in the earlier studies might have been less prepared for the > tests--and the tests then reflected experience not ability. So, I don't > know if the gender gap in math scores is narrowing or not, I'd presume it > is. It definately is in terms of math and science courses in college. > > Anyway, sorry to be long-winded...thought some might be unfamiliar and > interested. The point is simply that assumptions of biological > differences are being questioned. Though that seems a redundant point to > make to a feminist listserver. > > Andrea Klein Thanks, I think similar things happen here in science. I have a very memorable experience when I was fourteen of girls being asked to switch to biology because too many people wanted to do physics. BUT all of the twelve girls who had originally opted for physics were in the top set. It would have made far more sense for the boys in the lower sets to have been moved into general science making room that way. Inevitably, all but five girls dropped out. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:48:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA18236 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:55:25 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15187 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:56:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA71270; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:45:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 1335 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:45:03 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA30664 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:44:20 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:43:18 +0100 Received: from kmpc14 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id LAA08309; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:43:58 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:43:56 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:00:37 -0400 Andrea L. Klein wrote: > From: Andrea L. Klein > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:00:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: what students read and what should we teach? > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > > > The American City, I set a passage from Sarah and Elizabeth > > Delany's Having Our Say. The class positively glowed... they loved > > the extract, both male and female students and have all bounced off > > to read more, and this despite the strong feminism that comes from > > both women in their different ways. Being told that they were related > > to Samuel Delany, whose short story they read the week before, sent > > some of them back to that. Sometimes it can really work. > > I love Sadie and Bessie Delany too. _Having Our Say_ is beautifully > done, mostly because it paints these women so fantastically. > I had no idea they were related to Samuel Delany. How so? > > Andrea Klein They are his great aunts. Their brother Sam (the underdaker) was Samuel Delany's grandfather I think. I was rather suspcious when I read the book because Delany is not that common a name and the location was right, so I asked him to confirm and he did. Although I am not sure that he was too chuffed to be asked about his aunts' book rather than his own at an sf convention. farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:48:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA44676 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:56:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15200 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:57:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA77996; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:49:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 1366 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:49:02 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA30684 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:47:28 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:45:55 +0100 Received: from kmpc14 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id LAA08688; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:46:39 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:46:37 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:26:49 -0500 Martha Bartter wrote: > From: Martha Bartter > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:26:49 -0500 > Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > At 18:11 4/22/97 BST, you wrote: > >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:49:58 -0500 Heather Whipple wrote: > > >I echo Emily's > >> request to Farrah for elaboration on the statement that _The > >Dispossessed_ > >> is unequivocally NOT feminist. While I wouldn't say it is a perfect > >> feminist utopia, it does question some sexist assumptions. It is > >> primarily interested in exploring anarchy and not feminism, but this > >comes > >> back to the point I raised in my earlier post, that it is not a simple > >> thing to determine what is feminist and what isn't (i.e. seems to me > >that > >> anarchy and some feminisms share some common goals). The > >book's subtitle, > >> "An Ambiguous Utopia," suggests that what may be revolutionary > >(or > >> feminist), for one person/planet may not be for another--as well as > >> addressing up front (so to speak) that it might not be utopia at all. > >> > >> TD explores structures of power, and while it also contains some > >> essentialism and does also portray a sexist society, I would still > >argue > >> that that focus on power relations and property politics does make > >it at > >> least partly feminist. I certainly don't see that Le Guin believes > >"when > >> the revolution comes everything will be ok"; her point is exactly the > >> opposite--that revolution needs to be an on-going process. The > >problems > >> on Anarres are precisely *because* people have become > >complacent. > >> > >> *************** > >> Heather Whipple > >> hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu > > > > > >My point is not that The Dispossessed has no feminist elements, but > >that it is not a feminist utopia. I still feel tho' that Le Guin speculates > >very poorly where women are concerned and that whilst I admire her > >work, she is very behindhand in this area compared to even many > >male writers. It simply isn't her strong point: she tends to take up > >others' ideas and use them well, but her political strengths are > >elsewhere. > > > >farah > > > I don't see _The Dispossessed_ as anyone's "utopia." Le Guin calls > it "ambiguous," and I would agree. Certainly women don't get treated > worse on Anarres than men do but men don't get treated very well. > No individuality allowed (if it looks like a "propertarian" individuality). > Very little humor. Conditions on Urras may be worse -- no one on > Anarres starves unless they all do, for example, and the blatant > antifeminism we see among the elite doesn't occur there either, but > the rigidity of the thinking patterns and the demand that everyone > conform to the collective ethic simply demonstrates the reverse of > American individuality. And I think that's why Le Guin calls it > "ambiguous." No extreme works very well -- we may be reaching the > extreme of alienation that comes with individualism carried to the > nth degree -- but the kind of collective pattern followed, say, in > Japan or China, where "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down" > is pretty hard on the non-conformists (and it doesn't take much to > attain that designation). > > If we assume that a female utopia achieves gender equality in jobs and > pay and respect and opportunity and general honor, then we must assume > a utopia where motherhood (which is the woman's privilege) gets honored > -- whether it's paid or not. So we can't call the US any kind of female > utopia, no matter how much better things are for women than they were a > few dozen years ago. If we insist that a female utopia allows women to > treat men the way men have treated women for so long, we envision a > reversal -- different in kind, but not in character -- from Le Guin's > The Dispossessed. > > > Martha Bartter > Truman State University The Dispossessed may be an amibguous utopia, but the ambiguity discussed is not its limitations in gender equality. I am beginning to sound hostile to the book which is not the intention, I just wouldn't teach or represent it as a feminist text. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:48:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14952 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:05:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA15522 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:07:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA52364; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:53:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 1410 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:53:02 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA77878 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:52:07 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:47:48 +0100 Received: from kmpc14 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id LAA08926; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:48:31 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:48:29 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:31:10 -0500 Martha Bartter wrote: > From: Martha Bartter > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:31:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: feminist utopia/dystopia > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > At 17:56 4/22/97 BST, you wrote: > >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:06:00 -0800 Emily Hackbarth wrote: > > > [snip] > > > >The bit in the story which really annoyed me was the stuff about child > >care. Shevek's mother is made to seem neglectful for leaving her > >child in a creche whilst she goes off to pursue her career. His father > >is given no such guilt trip for doing the same thing, and neither is > >Shevek who is happy to abandon his child to the care of his wife > >assuming that she will be happy with this arrangment. > > > >In addition, one of the *implied* faults of this utopia is its lack of > >beauty (it *is* a harsh world) but the loss seems to be focussed on > >the loss of feminity. Why? What was LeGuin trying to say? > > > >In the end, Shevek's wife (and I apologise deeply for not being able > >to remember her name, but she is *so* colourless) is subsumed > >beneath the personality and creativity of the great man. I can't see > >much difference for women before or after the revolution. > > > > > >Farah > > > Takver -- I find her fascinating, and gave a paper on her once. I > found, to my surprise, that at least one person in the audience saw > her as a greedy (grease around the mouth) childlike person, with no > personality. I saw her as a brave, vital, contributing member of the > society -- who could say she had been wrong in a very important matter, > and take long separations from Shevek when they became necessary. > > That's something I have experienced myself, and believe me, it's not > easy, especially when you have full responsibility for the children. > Yes, the kids are in a kibbutz-like situation, so she doesn't have to > hold down a job AND do all the housework-baby-tending etc., but she > DOES have to manage when everyone around her is shunning her and her > kids, and giving them all a hard time. Utopia, indeed! And she does > not give in under that kind of pressure, either. A brave strong woman. > > Martha Bartter > Truman State University Do you still have this paper? Have you published it anywhere? I would very much like to read it as you seem to have focussed on some of the issues I found so problematic. Farah From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:49:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA85806 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:50:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22565 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:52:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA106446; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:39:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4187 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:39:01 -0500 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA41910 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:37:19 -0500 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56888; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:35:05 -0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:35:05 -0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: Re: Ursula LeGuin To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <335D3C00.66E2@sk.sympatico.ca> Status: RO X-Status: hi! On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Clarke girls wrote: > I was talking to an Anthropology grad student who like Ursula LeGuin > because of the influences she got from her father who is a well-known > Anthropologist... I didn't know this about her. Can anyone fill me in? 1) the "k" in "ursula k. leguin" stands for "kroeber". if you have attended at least anthropology 001 you'll be already filled in with that. :) Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:48:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA55594 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:59:10 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18746 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:59:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23456; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:41:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 3095 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:41:01 -0500 Received: from rizzo.infobahnos.com (rizzo.infobahnos.com [205.236.175.6]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA103452 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 07:40:40 -0500 Received: from ppp-0128.infobahnos.com (ppp-0128.infobahnos.com [204.19.114.38]) by rizzo.infobahnos.com (8.7.6/A/UX 3.1) with SMTP id IAA05978 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:40:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: maddog@rizzo.infobahnos.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704231240.IAA05978@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:40:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sheryl Curtis Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi Nalo: Would you be able to give me a reference for this essay. I've read most of EV's stuff a, but I didn't even know about this. Thanks. S. >NH: Hi, Sheryl. The Elgin books would have been the first I would have >recommended. There's also Samuel Delany's _Babel 17,_ although Suzette >Elgin told me that he gets some of his linguistic principles wrong in >that one. And I don't know that any of her books are *about* >translation, but Quebecer Elisabeth Vonarburg writes in both French and >English. I know that she has an essay about the difference between >writing the same text in two languages vs. translating it from one >language to the other. > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 12:24:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA54004 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:20:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25633 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:22:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA93066; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:55:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4529 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:55:10 -0500 Received: from canudos.ufba.br (canudos.ufba.br [192.188.11.36]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA84908 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:53:39 -0500 Received: from localhost by canudos.ufba.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48154; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:53:06 -0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:53:06 -0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira Subject: Re: dissertations / papers on tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: hi! On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > Are you writing a bibliography? 1) thanks on your kind answer. no, i'm not writing a bibliography - i'm just trying to assemble some resources for a web site on tiptree i plan to release soon. any help / suggestions would be welcome, btw. cheers, Antonio Marcos Pereira From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:49:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA58022 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:19:24 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19965 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:18:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA103456; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:05:23 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 3469 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:05:21 -0500 Received: from sums2.reading.ac.uk (pp@sums2.rdg.ac.uk [134.225.44.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA103528 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:04:04 -0500 Received: from suma3.rdg.ac.uk (actually host suma3-e3.rdg.ac.uk) by sums2.rdg.ac.uk with ESMTP; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:03:31 +0100 Received: from localhost by suma3.rdg.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA26214; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:03:25 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:03:24 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Ursula LeGuin To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <335D3C00.66E2@sk.sympatico.ca> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Clarke girls wrote: > Hi > > I was talking to an Anthropology grad student who like Ursula LeGuin > because of the influences she got from her father who is a well-known > Anthropologist... I didn't know this about her. Can anyone fill me in? > > Thanks > Jacquie > Not only was her father, A.L. Korover, an anthropologist, but so was her mother: see her lovely book _Isihi, Last of His Tribe_. If you want to understand how Le Guin (LE GUIN, please, not LeGuin!) has been PROFOHNDLY influenced by that, you need to read the fascinating article by Robert Maslen in the Summer 1996 issue of FOUNDATION (no. 67). Even Ursula K. liked it! Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:49:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA67604 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:47:22 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22013 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:46:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA84870; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:23:29 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 3760 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:23:28 -0500 Received: from sums2.reading.ac.uk (sums2.rdg.ac.uk [134.225.44.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA40888 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:22:49 -0500 Received: from suma3.rdg.ac.uk (actually host suma3-e3.rdg.ac.uk) by sums2.rdg.ac.uk with ESMTP; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:21:43 +0100 Received: from localhost by suma3.rdg.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03051; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:21:42 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:21:41 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: dissertations / papers on tiptree To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, farah mendlesohn wrote: > On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:38:26 -0200 Antonio Marcos da Silva Pereira > wrote: > > > hi! > > > > 1) is there anyone out there who has written dissertations / papers > on > > tiptree? could any of you who have done so plese get in touch with > me via > > private email? > > > > thanks a lot, > > > > Antonio Marcos Pereira > > > There are two articles on or dealing with Tiptree that I know of. My > own, in Foundation 59 simply dealing with six American writers of > whom Tiptree is one, and another (brilliant) article by Amanda Boulter > in a later issue (I can't remember the issue). > > Are you writing a bibliography? > > Farah Mendlesohn > The article in Foundation by Amanda Boulter was extracted from a University of Sussex doctorate. So there IS a thesis on Tiptree. And the recent PhD by Justine Arbelestier at the University of Sydney had quite a lot on Tiptree too. The FOUNDATION article is in no 63, Spring 1995. It _is_ brilliant. There's a good offer on back issues at the moment: check out my Web site! Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:49:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA60008 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:57:00 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22682 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA77764; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:33:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4015 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:33:02 -0500 Received: from sums2.reading.ac.uk (sums2.rdg.ac.uk [134.225.44.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA43708 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:31:15 -0500 Received: from suma3.rdg.ac.uk (actually host suma3-e3.rdg.ac.uk) by sums2.rdg.ac.uk with ESMTP; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:29:20 +0100 Received: from localhost by suma3.rdg.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05384; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:29:19 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:29:19 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Ursula LeGuin To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Edward James wrote: > On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Clarke girls wrote: > > > Hi > > > > I was talking to an Anthropology grad student who like Ursula LeGuin > > because of the influences she got from her father who is a well-known > > Anthropologist... I didn't know this about her. Can anyone fill me in? > > > > Thanks > > Jacquie > > > > > Not only was her father, A.L. Korover, an anthropologist, but so was her > mother: see her lovely book _Isihi, Last of His Tribe_. If you want to > understand how Le Guin (LE GUIN, please, not LeGuin!) has been PROFOHNDLY > influenced by that, you need to read the fascinating article by Robert > Maslen in the Summer 1996 issue of FOUNDATION (no. 67). Even Ursula K. > liked it! > > Edward James > Sorry: I am a bad proofreader: that should be A.L. KROEBER, and it should be ISHI. I apologise for being snotty about LeGuin: maybe that was a typo too! Edward From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:49:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA96758 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:00:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23193 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:58:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA133748; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:43:15 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4298 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:43:13 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA117240 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:41:13 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 97 09:41 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:41:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: SF and Translation To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199704231240.IAA05978@rizzo.infobahnos.com> Status: O X-Status: NH: I'm hunting it down now, Sheryl. Can't find a thing in the morass that is my apt. But I'm checking with SFCanada; think I read it in one of their publications. -nalo On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Sheryl Curtis wrote: > Hi Nalo: > > Would you be able to give me a reference for this essay. I've read most of > EV's stuff a, but I didn't even know about this. Thanks. > > S. > > >NH: Hi, Sheryl. The Elgin books would have been the first I would have > >recommended. There's also Samuel Delany's _Babel 17,_ although Suzette > >Elgin told me that he gets some of his linguistic principles wrong in > >that one. And I don't know that any of her books are *about* > >translation, but Quebecer Elisabeth Vonarburg writes in both French and > >English. I know that she has an essay about the difference between > >writing the same text in two languages vs. translating it from one > >language to the other. > > > From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 09:49:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA113882 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:01:07 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23437 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:01:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA109424; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:51:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 4454 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:51:08 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA64988 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:49:09 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 23 Apr 97 08:49:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:49:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Ursula LeGuin To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Edward James wrote: > > Not only was her father, A.L. Korover, an anthropologist, but so was her > mother: see her lovely book _Isihi, Last of His Tribe_. If you want to > understand how Le Guin (LE GUIN, please, not LeGuin!) has been PROFOHNDLY > influenced by that, you need to read the fascinating article by Robert > Maslen in the Summer 1996 issue of FOUNDATION (no. 67). Even Ursula K. > liked it! > > Edward James I believe it's Kroeber From ???@??? Wed Apr 23 12:24:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA90554 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:28:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26079 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:27:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA102930; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:11:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 5082 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:11:05 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA94846 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:10:42 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id JAA12360 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:04:01 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) References: <335D3C00.66E2@sk.sympatico.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970423091338.1ad704de@academic.truman.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:11:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Ursula LeGuin To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: At 14:03 4/23/97 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Clarke girls wrote: > >> Hi >> >> I was talking to an Anthropology grad student who like Ursula LeGuin >> because of the influences she got from her father who is a well-known >> Anthropologist... I didn't know this about her. Can anyone fill me in? >> >> Thanks >> Jacquie >> > > >Not only was her father, A.L. Korover, an anthropologist, but so was her >mother: see her lovely book _Isihi, Last of His Tribe_. Yes, but it's spelled Kroeber, please, like Ursula K's middle name. Theodora Le Guin, author of _Ishi_, was his second wife; mother of his two children and certainly a talented author, whether or not she was also an anthropologist. > >Edward James > >........................................................................... ... > >Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social >Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK > >http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm > >Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION >Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE > >........................................................................... ... > Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:02:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA78056 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:12:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25842 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:12:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA96090; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:47:27 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 12541 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:47:26 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA86902 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:47:02 -0500 Received: from akr-oh2-14.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh2-14.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.78]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA19253 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:33:05 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970423145003.30e78b00@kent.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:33:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: American Airlines Pride To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends and Family, BACKGROUND: American Airlines is a major sponsor to and supporter of groups like GLAAD, the Human Rights Campaign, the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund, the AIDS Action Foundation, DIFFA, AmFAR, and scores of community- based groups representing gays and lesbians. It is also the first airline to adopt a written non-discrimination policy covering sexual orientation in its employment practices. An unusual joint letter was released to the media on Friday, March 14th from the Family Research Council, Concerned Women of America, American Family Association and Coral Ridge Ministries. Radical right leader Beverly LaHaye also went on Christian "talk radio" on Friday to blast American Airlines because "American's sponsorship of homosexual 'pride' events constitutes an open endorsement of promiscuous homo- sexuality." She and the other groups have written Bob Crandall at American to complain that the airline has "gone beyond mere tolerance" of gays and lesbians. The full article appears in Friday's Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and possibly picked up by other newspapers around the country. It has come to the attention of the gay and Lesbian community that American Airline's switchboard and e-mails are being bombarded now by homophobic and hateful callers who have been urged by LaHaye and others to DEMAND the company terminate its gay-friendly policies. WHAT YOU CAN DO At the end of this note is a petition supporting American Airlines' stance on gay rights. If you feel that discrimination is in nobody's best interest, add your name to the list below. And, of course, pass it on. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- IF YOU ARE the 25th, 50th, 75th, 100th, etc., person to sign this petition, please forward this copy to American Airlines at: webmaster@amrcorp.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------> To American Airlines: We, the undersigned, support your gay/lesbian rights policies and commend you for your efforts in ending discrimination. Thank you for your dedication to such issues and please continue to remain active in the struggle to end discrimination. 1. Marybeth Kurtz, Philadelphia, PA 2. Jen Faust, Goucher College, Balto. MD 3. Heather Riley, UMBC, Balto., MD 4. Katy Schuman, UMBC, Balto., MD 5. Rebekka Gold, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH. 6. Danielle Hirsch, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH. 7. Jerrod Wendland, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH. 8. Jon Morgan, Ohio Wesleyan University, Delaware, OH. 9. Keri Rainsberger, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. 10. Cheryl Lynn Bates, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. 11. Court Singrey, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. 12. Carol Fischer, Indiana University, Bloomington IN. 13. Victoria R. Gardner, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. 14. Joshua S. Greenbaum, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 15. Tamara Grybko, Boston, MA 16. Jameson Hill, San Francisco, CA 17. Ed Roppo, San Francisco, CA 18. Christopher Pratt, Mountain View, CA 19. Tom Lloyd, San Francisco, CA 20. Brian Kliment, San Francisco, CA 21. Steve Christensen, Palo Alto, CA 22. Michael Larson, Sunnyvale, CA 23. Jennifer Rudenick, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 24. Sarah Knipper, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 25. Jan Alfred Sandven, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 26. Amy Van Looy, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 27. David Bradley, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 28. Andrea Rufo, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 29. Alison Chase, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30. Julie Noelle Chase, San Francisco, CA 31. Steve Boland, San Francisco, CA 32. James Devinny, Denver, CO 33. Heather Saunders, Denver, CO 34. Meg Green, Austin, TX 35. Rachel Matthews, Austin, TX 36. Danny Field, San Francisco, CA 37. Daniel Heilborn, San Francisco, CA 38. Kevin H. Souza, San Francisco, CA 39. Willis Navarro, UCSF, San Francisco, CA 40. Gregory S. Arent, M.D., San Francisco, CA 41. Derek A. Palmer, Seattle, WA 42. Recinda L. Sherman, Portland, OR 43. Amanda Perrygo, Charlottesville, VA 44. Jamison F. Bowman, Woodstock, MD 45. Marc Roney, Parkersburg, WV 46. Rev. D. L. Kemp, Hinton, WV 47. JT Kemp, Hinton, WV 48. Barbara Russell, Beckley, WV 49. Virginia Keyes, Austin, Texas 50. Thomas Kermani, Austin, TX 51. Tani L. Barr-Kermani, Austin, TX 52. Laura Hicks, Austin, TX 53. Sarah Hicks, Portland, OR 54. Kristen Hoard, Portland, OR 55. Patricia Ju, New York, NY 56. Heather MacLean, Kent, OH hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:09:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA199680 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:55:55 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01566 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:57:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA99830; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:37:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22516 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:37:02 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA41564 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:26:04 -0500 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA15145 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:25:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ala-ca32-13.ix.netcom.com(199.35.209.77) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015120; Wed Apr 23 22:25:15 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <335ED76A.2EE2@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:45:46 -0700 Reply-To: byerwood@IX.NETCOM.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: K Wood/C Byers Organization: Byerwood Productions Subject: introduction To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Hi, all. I was just added to this list, and thought it would be polite to introduce myself. I'm Candace Byers. I live in Oakland, California. I'm an unpublished fantasy novelist, and came across this list while wandering around the Net looking for something else. It looked so potentially interesting that I couldn't resist. Talk to you all later. Candace -- "Making war is easy. It's making peace that's hard. That's why so few people do it." Xena, Warrior Princess KOFY-TV From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:10:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA100674 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:50:26 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA07784 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:52:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA67934; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:45:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 25206 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:45:04 -0500 Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA58752 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:43:42 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA16683 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970424024341_1389150521@emout14.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:43:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sandeen Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: << Laura: so glad to hear from a younger person... it's absolutely necessary to hear your voice!!! i haven't read as much as the others on the list, either... but i'm learning so much by discussion. (i'm 30 and an english instructor). (double ack.) what have you read? and what did you think about those works? AND why do you think you and your friends don't read sf? or at all? do you feel that the females read more or less -- and why? and one last question: what is going on in the high schools and around younger people today that makes them think that feminism is so terrible? i'd love to get your perspective. -lissa bloomer >> I read _The Gate to Woman's Country_ and I loved it. I don't consider that one part that's been so discussed on the list exactly homophobic, maybe I'll read it again. I also read _Grass_ and found it really interesting. This is really randomn but I noticed some strange, kind of abstract similarities between it and Jewel's music (though not nearly as many as between Tracy Chapman and _1984_). I just finished Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide by Orson Scott Card. At first I was a bit appalled at the manipulation and violence in Ender's Game, but I really liked them and when Iread the other two, it conected a lot better in my mind. I can't wait to read Children of the Mind. I think a lot of people my age don't read because of the time factor. with all the books everyone has to trudge through they don't want to deal with any more even if they'll be fun. I know in middle school I read a little SF, but I refused to call it that because everyone, including me thought of science fiction of some awful nerdy thing, I'm not even sure anymore. Most of my friends hate science except maybe phisiology. They have no interest in the subjects in science fiction and they don't want to think about it. I think a lot of it is the whole nerd image, too. They might try sf, but then they don't want to be laughed at. I think the females tend to read less and I'm not sure why. Most of my friends are from Girl Scout camp and most of them tend to be more into humanities, especially major wise. They'll say "this is a plant" but they won't ask "why is this a plant" or "what makes it a plant". I'm the one teaching 7 year olds about chemical reactions, while they're fighting over who can help in Arts & Crafts (I like Arts & Crafts too). This is getting really irrelevant so maybe I'll ask some people this week and write more when I get more info. About Feminism I've never really thought about it, I've rarely even heard the word used at school, but thinking about it, when it is used there does seem to be sort of a stigmitism around it. I think feminists are usually looked at as either a bunch of woman who hate men or a bunch of lesbians. If people think that by definition they have to hate men, they're going to run away from the term. It's perception, but a lot about high school is perception, everyone tries to be what they think everybody else will think is "cool" and it ends up being quite amusing if you just remove yourself from the situation and watch the madness of people trying to fit in 100% which is impossible. It's late and I have a ton of hw left to do, so I think I'll stop rambleing. (Please excuse my spelling, I have aol and there is still no spellcheck.) :-) Laura Sandeen From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:10:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA142786 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:38:28 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA12956 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:39:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA71208; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:35:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 27000 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:35:04 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA44086 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 06:34:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA14571; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from areuter (world.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22702; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:34:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 References: <335ED76A.2EE2@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <335F448E.7D30@world.std.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:31:26 -0400 Reply-To: areuter@WORLD.STD.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Anne E. Reuter" Organization: iDirect Subject: Re: introduction Comments: To: byerwood@IX.NETCOM.COM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: K Wood/C Byers wrote: > FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > I'm Candace Byers. I live in Oakland, California. I'm an unpublished > fantasy novelist... So am I. Welcome to the list. Have you tried to get your work published? My email address is areuter@world.std.com. We can exchange war stories :-) From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:16:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA49346 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:39:36 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05548 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:36:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21624; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:01:25 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 32123 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:01:24 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.NEMOSTATE.EDU [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA96072 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:00:32 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id KAA12615 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:53:55 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970424110334.2ac7dbf4@academic.truman.edu> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:01:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: American Airlines Pride To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970423145003.30e78b00@kent.edu> Status: O X-Status: At 14:33 4/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Friends and Family, > > BACKGROUND: > > American Airlines is a major sponsor to and supporter of groups > like GLAAD, the Human Rights Campaign, the Gay and Lesbian Victory > Fund, the AIDS Action Foundation, DIFFA, AmFAR, and scores of community- > based groups representing gays and lesbians. It is also the first > airline to adopt a written non-discrimination policy covering > sexual orientation in its employment practices. > > An unusual joint letter was released to the media on Friday, March > 14th from the Family Research Council, Concerned Women of America, > American Family Association and Coral Ridge Ministries. Radical right > leader Beverly LaHaye also went on Christian "talk radio" on Friday to > blast American Airlines because "American's sponsorship of homosexual > 'pride' events constitutes an open endorsement of promiscuous homo- > sexuality." > > She and the other groups have written Bob Crandall at American to > complain that the airline has "gone beyond mere tolerance" of gays > and lesbians. The full article appears in Friday's Fort Worth > Star-Telegram, and possibly picked up by other newspapers around the > country. > > It has come to the attention of the gay and Lesbian community that > American Airline's switchboard and e-mails are being bombarded now by > homophobic and hateful callers who have been urged by LaHaye and others > to DEMAND the company terminate its gay-friendly policies. > > WHAT YOU CAN DO > > At the end of this note is a petition supporting American Airlines' > stance on gay rights. If you feel that discrimination is in nobody's > best interest, add your name to the list below. And, of course, pass > it on. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IF YOU ARE the 25th, 50th, 75th, 100th, etc., person to sign this > petition, please forward this copy to American Airlines at: > webmaster@amrcorp.com > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------> >To American Airlines: > > We, the undersigned, support your gay/lesbian rights policies and > commend you for your efforts in ending discrimination. Thank you > for your dedication to such issues and please continue to remain > active in the struggle to end discrimination. > > 1. Marybeth Kurtz, Philadelphia, PA > 2. Jen Faust, Goucher College, Balto. MD > 3. Heather Riley, UMBC, Balto., MD > 4. Katy Schuman, UMBC, Balto., MD > 5. Rebekka Gold, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH. > 6. Danielle Hirsch, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH. > 7. Jerrod Wendland, Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH. > 8. Jon Morgan, Ohio Wesleyan University, Delaware, OH. > 9. Keri Rainsberger, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. > 10. Cheryl Lynn Bates, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. > 11. Court Singrey, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. > 12. Carol Fischer, Indiana University, Bloomington IN. > 13. Victoria R. Gardner, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN. > 14. Joshua S. Greenbaum, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI > 15. Tamara Grybko, Boston, MA > 16. Jameson Hill, San Francisco, CA > 17. Ed Roppo, San Francisco, CA > 18. Christopher Pratt, Mountain View, CA > 19. Tom Lloyd, San Francisco, CA > 20. Brian Kliment, San Francisco, CA > 21. Steve Christensen, Palo Alto, CA > 22. Michael Larson, Sunnyvale, CA > 23. Jennifer Rudenick, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL > 24. Sarah Knipper, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL > 25. Jan Alfred Sandven, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL > 26. Amy Van Looy, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL > 27. David Bradley, Emory University, Atlanta, GA > 28. Andrea Rufo, Emory University, Atlanta, GA > 29. Alison Chase, Emory University, Atlanta, GA > 30. Julie Noelle Chase, San Francisco, CA > 31. Steve Boland, San Francisco, CA > 32. James Devinny, Denver, CO > 33. Heather Saunders, Denver, CO > 34. Meg Green, Austin, TX > 35. Rachel Matthews, Austin, TX > 36. Danny Field, San Francisco, CA > 37. Daniel Heilborn, San Francisco, CA > 38. Kevin H. Souza, San Francisco, CA > 39. Willis Navarro, UCSF, San Francisco, CA > 40. Gregory S. Arent, M.D., San Francisco, CA > 41. Derek A. Palmer, Seattle, WA > 42. Recinda L. Sherman, Portland, OR > 43. Amanda Perrygo, Charlottesville, VA > 44. Jamison F. Bowman, Woodstock, MD > 45. Marc Roney, Parkersburg, WV > 46. Rev. D. L. Kemp, Hinton, WV > 47. JT Kemp, Hinton, WV > 48. Barbara Russell, Beckley, WV > 49. Virginia Keyes, Austin, Texas > 50. Thomas Kermani, Austin, TX > 51. Tani L. Barr-Kermani, Austin, TX > 52. Laura Hicks, Austin, TX > 53. Sarah Hicks, Portland, OR > 54. Kristen Hoard, Portland, OR > 55. Patricia Ju, New York, NY > 56. Heather MacLean, Kent, OH 57. Martha Bartter, Kirksville MO > > > > > > > > > >hmaclean@kent.edu >http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ > From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:22:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23232 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:54:01 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13616 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:53:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA77736; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:31:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 41846 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:31:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ax.com (odin.ax.com [199.184.188.9]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA48370 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:30:06 -0500 Received: from [199.184.188.108] (ppp108.ax.com [199.184.188.108]) by odin.ax.com (8.8.3/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id QAA26739 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:29:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: American Airlines Pride To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hmmm. I forwarded this to an individual off list with my name in the #57 spot. Oh, well, I guess if they get two lists back at 100, they can merge them or something... More is more, right? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:23:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA104522 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:09:52 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17172 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:08:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA73844; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:33:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43046 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:33:06 -0500 Received: from mustang.uwo.ca (mustang-a.uwo.ca [129.100.2.50]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA97230 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:21:33 -0500 X-Sender: mlast@mustang.uwo.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704250020.UAA15262@mustang.uwo.ca> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 20:20:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Pandora's Box" Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: At 02:43 AM 4/24/97 -0400, you wrote: Hi Everyone, I joined the list about 2 weeks ago, and had an interesting time reading the posts re: "What do students read?" mainly because I'm a university student. It was refreshing to hear all of your opinions on this issues. I'm finishing up a course called "Science Fiction, Fantasy & Romance". The reading list consisted of Mary Shelley, _Terminal Experiment_ (author's name escapes me), Lem's _Solaris_, Zamyatin's _We_, Frank Hebert (2 books from _Dune_), _Grendel_, _The Lord of the Rings_ (all of it!), _A Canticle for Leibowitz_, Dick's _Do Android's Dream of Electric Sheep_, Orwell's _1984_, Piercy's _He, She & It_ (my favourite!), Le Guin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_, and many short stories from an anthology that Le Guin and a man (?) edited and published by Norton. I haven't decided what exactly to make of the course. I spent most of my time reading Dale Spender, and contemplating cyborgs and humans. Speaking of which, can anyone recommend any well-written novels dealing with this subject? Before this course, I had read very little sci fi/fantasy (a few W. Gibson novels and _Waking the Moon_). With the urgence of my partner, who reads *only* science fiction, I took the course. I'm a Women's Studies student and would read the texts with that slant. The prof was concerned with the way "other" (ie. aliens, robots) is constructed -- something I found very interesting. It turned out to be my second fave class, though unfortunately because of the size of the reading list I had to go to classes with the books either half completed or barely touched. Now I'm catching up on the reading, and am planning on reading more sci-fi during the summer. I don't think I'd be considered "fully-converted" though. So as a young person (relatively -- I'm 20), I'll answer some of Lissa's questions as well. > about those works? AND why do you think you and your friends don't read sf? I think I read very little sci-fi before the course began because there are so many other books! :-) What I did while I was in high school was read classics. For my grade nine book report I wanted to do G. Flaubert's _Madame Bovary_ (the book wasn't approved ). Around that time I was convinced that the best way to get a handle of what was written was to read in chronological order. Though I spent a lot of time in 18th - early 20th century. I was incredibly bored during high school, and would read any time I got. English class, the time I thought would be the most fun, was the dreariest. The mandatory books were too easy, and I was never able to compromise with the teachers -- though in grade ten my teacher let me read _Don Quixote_ (made for an interesting in-class oral book report). :-) Now that I'm university I've read *most* of what makes it on a reading list, so I spend my time reading current/modern books. Being in Canada where education cuts are a daily affair, course offerings are must more conservative and careful than most US colleges (I have looked at a few syllabi and nearly died of excitement -- the range of topic being explored is AMAZING!). Most of the titles I read come from those syllabis. Thank God some of you post them on the Net! :-) > or at all? do you feel that the females read more or less -- and why? and I went to a French Catholic high school in Northern Ontario (read: stereotypes are alive and well). Girls naturally fell into taking art/humanity classes, while boys took math/science courses. At school there were more girls openly reading, I knew some male "closet" readers. They never read at school, and in English class when there was designated reading time, they would stare at the page. When I was a senior (18-19 years old) my English class was dominated by girls. They were the ones who spoke out and participated in discussions. The boys who were present goofed off, while secretly discussing the book/play with me in the halls -- in whispered voices, of course. Though I have noticed the reading material was very different. Most girls chose romance novels, while boys read horror and science fiction. Again, my novel (_Monk_) was rejected for my book report. > one last question: what is going on in the high schools and around younger > people today that makes them think that feminism is so terrible? i'd love > to get your perspective. I think Laura got it right when she wrote: >About Feminism I've never really thought about it, I've rarely even heard the >word used at school, but thinking about it, when it is used there does seem >to be sort of a stigmitism around it. I think feminists are usually looked >at as either a bunch of woman who hate men or a bunch of lesbians. If people >think that by definition they have to hate men, they're going to run away >from the term. It's perception, but a lot about high school is perception, >everyone tries to be what they think everybody else will think is "cool" and >it ends up being quite amusing if you just remove yourself from the situation >and watch the madness of people trying to fit in 100% which is impossible. When I was in high school I was very vocal. I would shout in debates to be heard -- teachers let the boys dominate the conversations even though they never raised their hands (I only remember one teacher who wouldn't let the above happen *all* of the time). Me and three of my closest friends were the only ones who had the guts to call someone's comment sexist, racist, or homophobic. And because of our courage we were called lesbians, man haters, accused of not wearing a bra, never shaving our legs, far too opiniated to ever get a guy, and would die alone with hundreds of cats. (!) There was one guy (in my senior history class) who was too ashamed to even say the word "homosexual". I'll never forget it, he just waived his hand and said "you know who I mean," calling them a deragatory word (in french) instead. It was horrible, and very typical of most of the students responses. I'm sure that there were kids who didn't agree with that guy, but they never spoke up. Interestingly though, now when I see the people who used to call us lesbians (in a derogatory way) behind our backs (and later to our faces) they have the nerve to stop me in the street and chit chat like we were the best of friends. University is no different, I'm afraid to say. In my Women's Studies courses most of the girls don't use the word "feminist" to describe themselves though they adher to most of the principles. They argue with me that they have never faced discrimination. Only when you start presenting them with scenarios do they start to understand/see. Even then, when they agree with you that it is unfair, they refuse to call themselves feminists. I'm working on a personal essay on this topic right now -- collecting any book/article that I can find on the subject. Email me privately if you want the list of titles that I have found so far. >really randomn but I noticed some strange, kind of abstract similarities >between it and Jewel's music (though not nearly as many as between Tracy >Chapman and _1984_). I just finished Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead and How interesting Laura... Could you please elaborate? (I ask as I listen to Tracy Chapman) Is it the freedom that she describes? well... take care and happy reading, Mellissa From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:22:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA179172 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:25:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15346 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:27:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA96088; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:07:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 42682 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:07:05 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA84850 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:06:56 -0500 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA23884 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:06:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ala-ca17-16.ix.netcom.com(204.32.168.176) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma023855; Thu Apr 24 19:06:11 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <335FFA46.BFC@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:26:46 -0700 Reply-To: byerwood@IX.NETCOM.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: K Wood/C Byers Organization: Byerwood Productions Subject: Re: American Airlines Pride To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hi, all and Maryelizabeth; I did exactly the same thing. Candace Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > > Hmmm. I forwarded this to an individual off list with my name in the #57 > spot. Oh, well, I guess if they get two lists back at 100, they can merge > them or something... > > More is more, right? > > Maryelizabeth > Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 > 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 > San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX > http://www.mystgalaxy.com -- "Making war is easy. It's making peace that's hard. That's why so few people do it." Xena, Warrior Princess KOFY-TV From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:27:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA143622 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:25:56 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13043 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:24:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA106396; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:59:24 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 52070 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:59:20 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA108724 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:57:48 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id JAA03334; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:56:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:56:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199704250020.UAA15262@mustang.uwo.ca> Status: RO X-Status: Interesting post, Melissa! I too am interested in cyborgs- presumnably you were looking at Donna Haraway's "Manifesto....."? She mentions a whole bunch of novels from Vonda McIntyre's Superluminal, to Varley's Triton, Demon, Wizard, Delany, Russ, Butler , McCaffrey's The Ship Who Sang, and others. Interestingly, in many of these books cyborgs per se are absent- or technology is treated ambivilently. In Russ's Female Man for example a woman in an induction helmet can perform the tasks of a thousand, but over in Manland men are transformed to women way that reifies male/female relations, and technology is devoted to war. So cyborgs cut both ways in Russ. In terms of Haraway's notion of the boundary between machine and human breaking down, Tanith Lee's The Silver Metal Lover is interesting as the machine *becomes* human. As Harraway might say "our machines are disturbingly lively while we are frightenly inert" (this may not be a totally accurate quote- the memory, alas, fades). I'm interested actually in the time frame of Harraway- when she first wrote her paper (around 1983 I think) technology must of seemed to offer a window of opportunity- now I suspect it has narrowed somewhat. With cyber-rapes and cyberstalkings, and cyborgs in the movies simply reinforcing "natural" (uh!) sexual differences (Robocop and the Terminator being examples of supposedly sexless machines being definitely "hard" and masculine), it may be that this window of opportunity- that the dissolving of boundaries between human/machine and hence other binaries like male/female- has closed.I know Harraway shouldn't be treated too literally, as she was engaged in an ironic project- a kind of myth making-but nonetheless developments in the technological world seem to me to be more dystopian than utopian. In that sense perhaps Harraway's project has failed.I'd appreciate any comments that may disabuse me of this sad conclusion! The only female cyborg in the movies I can think of is the borg Queen in Star Trek. It seemed to me, once again, to simply reinforce sexual boundaries and reflect male anxieties. The connection between sex and death for example, as the erotic "other" almost lures Data to a sexual doom! Then the borg queen as the phallic women, with the drill heading alarmingly towards Picard's impressive doomed forehead!Pentration! castration!The Horror, the horror! Then the stunning shot of Picard as a drone in a vast hive of all other captives- all servicing the Queen bee! Its all great fun, but not, alas, sexually revolutionary.Can anyone think of other female cyborgs in the movies?Do things pan out any better??? Thanks for an interesting post Melissa! Tanya. PS the writer of The Terminal Experiment was Robert Sawyer- a Canadian- he spoke at a SF class I TA'ed at this year. An articulate man with an incredibly simple and clear prose style which is very good for storytelling, only I'm not so sure that the novel has alot of complexity. This is not precisely a criticism- there is alot to be said for storytelling. From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:29:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA162394 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:51:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29519 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:32:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA31806; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:43:18 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 55657 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:43:16 -0500 Received: from nevis.u.arizona.edu (nevis.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.19]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA32020 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:42:16 -0500 Received: from localhost (lorie@localhost) by nevis.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA44726 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:40:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:40:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lorie G Sauble-otto Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: This is a problem I am currently working on, and I'd like some feedback. Can we necessarily take Haraway's cyborg literally--all of the time? I'm beginning to read it more as an identity, the postmodern identity and the metaphore (a word which Haraway herself employs to describe her cyborg). I think it's time to rethink exactly what she means by cyborg. We're talking about two different things, the literal cyborg and the cyborg identity which is far-reaching and shifting, border-blurring..... Is Elisabeth Vonarburg's Elisa, in The Silent City, a cyborg? The body as machine blurrs the distinctions between the actual cyborg creation and the cyborg identity. What do you think? lorie On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Tanya Wood wrote: > Interesting post, Melissa! I too am interested in cyborgs- presumnably you > were looking at Donna Haraway's "Manifesto....."? She mentions a whole > bunch of novels from Vonda McIntyre's Superluminal, to Varley's Triton, > Demon, Wizard, Delany, Russ, Butler , McCaffrey's The Ship > Who Sang, and others. Interestingly, in many of these books > cyborgs per se are absent- or technology is treated ambivilently. In > Russ's Female Man for example a woman in an induction helmet can perform > the tasks of a thousand, but over in Manland men are > transformed to women way that reifies male/female relations, and > technology is devoted to war. So > cyborgs cut both ways in Russ. In terms of Haraway's notion of the > boundary between machine and human breaking down, Tanith Lee's The Silver > Metal Lover is interesting as the machine *becomes* human. As Harraway > might say "our machines are disturbingly lively while we are frightenly > inert" (this may not be a totally accurate quote- the memory, alas, > fades). > > I'm interested > actually in the time frame of Harraway- when she first wrote her paper > (around 1983 I think) technology must of seemed to offer a window of > opportunity- now I suspect it has narrowed somewhat. With cyber-rapes > and cyberstalkings, and cyborgs in the movies simply reinforcing "natural" > (uh!) sexual differences (Robocop and the Terminator being examples of > supposedly sexless machines being definitely "hard" and masculine), it > may be that this window of opportunity- that the dissolving of boundaries > between human/machine and hence other binaries like male/female- has > closed.I know Harraway shouldn't be treated too literally, as she was > engaged in an ironic project- a kind of myth making-but nonetheless > developments in the technological world seem to me to be more dystopian > than utopian. In that sense perhaps Harraway's project has failed.I'd > appreciate any comments that may disabuse me of this sad conclusion! > > The only female cyborg in the movies I can think of is the borg Queen in > Star Trek. It seemed to me, once again, to simply reinforce sexual > boundaries and reflect male anxieties. The connection between sex and > death for example, as the erotic "other" almost lures Data to a sexual > doom! Then the borg queen as the phallic women, with the drill heading > alarmingly towards Picard's impressive doomed forehead!Pentration! > castration!The Horror, the horror! Then the stunning > shot of Picard as a drone in a vast hive of all other captives- all > servicing the Queen bee! Its all great fun, but > not, alas, sexually revolutionary.Can anyone think of other female cyborgs > in the movies?Do things pan out any better??? > > Thanks for an interesting post Melissa! > > Tanya. > > PS the writer of The Terminal Experiment was Robert Sawyer- a Canadian- he > spoke at a SF class I TA'ed at this year. An articulate man with an > incredibly simple and clear prose style which is very good for > storytelling, only I'm not so sure that the novel has alot of complexity. > This is not precisely a criticism- there is alot to be said for > storytelling. > Lorie Sauble-Otto Dept. of French & Italian Mod Lang 549 The University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:31:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA86916 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:49:27 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06730 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:50:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA42912; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:27:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 57590 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:27:08 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA117004 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:26:48 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id OAA14335; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:25:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:25:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: what do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Lorie G Sauble-otto wrote: > This is a problem I am currently working on, and I'd like some feedback. > Can we necessarily take Haraway's cyborg literally--all of the time? I'm > beginning to read it more as an identity, the postmodern identity and the > metaphore (a word which Haraway herself employs to describe her cyborg). > I think it's time to rethink exactly what she means by cyborg. We're > talking about two different things, the literal cyborg and the cyborg > identity which is far-reaching and shifting, border-blurring..... Is > Elisabeth Vonarburg's Elisa, in The Silent City, a cyborg? The body as > machine blurrs the distinctions between the actual cyborg creation and the > cyborg identity. What do you think? > > lorie > > Dear lorie, No, I don't think we can take Haraway literally all the time. I'm not quite sure that she can be taken literally at all.It seemed to me that Haraway worked off images of the literal cyborg AS a metaphor for boundary blurring po. mo identities. Most critics hail the cyborg motif as emanicapatory in an unqualified sense, and I think that that is a mistake- one interesting exception applies haraway to AIDS- I can't remember the name of the article but it is in Linda Hutcheons edition of collected essays on post modernism. H. certainly does intend to map out a post-modern identity- she identifies Cherie Moraga and Audre Lorde as occupying such a discursive position (it is by no means clear to me that they do, but that is another story- there is a blistering attack by a chicana feminist- called Lara or Lora Romero? on this). What I find interesting through is that in our culture now the cyborg figure is used to reinforce sexual steretotypes, and so the utopian parts of Haraway's equation are being subsumned, and the dystopian aspects ( which H talks about in the "women on the intergrated circut" part of the essay) are not. I see Haraway's essay as an early attempt to intervene in the intergration of technology and the human, to layout previously unthought possibilities. > > I too am working on Haraway. But I really should be working on cross-dressing in Elizabethian drama- there could be a connection! I have got private replies from 2 other people who working on H as well. Anyone out there thinking about a collection of essays???? > > > > > >Tanya. > From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:39:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA134214 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:23:31 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02962 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:23:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA60864; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:11:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64056 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:11:04 -0500 Received: from freya.van.hookup.net (root@freya.van.hookup.net [207.102.129.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA86840 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:00:50 -0500 Received: from pjohnstn.deepcove.com (t5-7.van.hookup.net [207.102.131.8]) by freya.van.hookup.net (8.8.5/1.25) with SMTP id SAA32147 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: pjohnstn@deepcove.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425175400.006965bc@deepcove.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:54:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: patricia johnston Subject: Lenora Carrington To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Has anyone read the hearing trumpet by Lenora Carrington? Would like to hear your thoughts on this novel. Patricia. From ???@??? Sun Apr 27 10:39:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA202018 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:35:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05137 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:36:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA60704; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:25:02 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 64643 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:25:01 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA52472 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:24:10 -0500 Received: from akr-oh2-16.ix.netcom.com (BPnthr@akr-oh2-16.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.80]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA08678 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:10:14 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970425222657.3cd792c8@kent.edu> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:10:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Lenora Carrington To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: At 05:54 PM 4/25/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All, >Has anyone read the hearing trumpet by Lenora Carrington? >Would like to hear your thoughts on this novel. >Patricia. > > I've read several of Leonora Carrington's works--quite like her painting, too. However, I don't have copies of her stuff, and it's been too long, so I can't make pointed comments. Cool stuff, though. Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:07:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA115786 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:35:35 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27731 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:36:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28596; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:27:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 87507 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:27:04 -0500 Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA60004 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:15:28 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA28680 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970427181513_1651332303@emout11.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ann Wheeler Subject: Fwd: What do students read? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: From: tawney@juno.com (Kate M Bledsoe) To: AWhee47354@aol.com Date: 97-04-27 13:08:56 EDT Hello all~ I have been lurking here for a few weeks, but I think now it is time to introduce myself. My name is Kate, and I am a senior in high school. Because I use Juno for e-mail and not an ISP like AOL or Compuserve, I cannot officially be a part of this list. However, AWhee (also a lurker) *is* on the list, and she is also a nice lady, so she has been forwarding to me all the mail from this list, and is posting this message for me. I have enjoyed all the discussions so far, but this is the first one I think I can really contribute to. lissa bloomer asked: >what have you read? and what did you think about those works? I have always enjoyed science fiction, but I just discovered the field of feminist science fiction through an independent study I am taking this year. I've had just enough time (and money) to get my footing in the field, but not much more. I've read every story in the Norton Anthology of Science Fiction (ed. Ursula K. Le Guin--a great anthology); all the stories in _Women of Wonder:Feminist Science Fiction_(?--I forget the exact title and editor's name--awful cover art but another wonderful anthology); Butler's _Bloodchild_, _Kindred_, and _Wild Seed_; Le Guin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_; Melissa Scott's _Trouble and Her Friends_; and I'm in the middle of Griffith's _Ammonite_. I won't bore you with what I thought of each and every one of these, but they all made me think about issues I never had before. I had never consciously thought of myself as feminist, but the independent study and the above books made me aware that I am. lissa also asked: >AND why do you think you and your friends don't read sf? or at all? I have to agree with Laura here. Of my friends who read often, I'd say most of them don't give science fiction a shot because they either think it is nerdy or it is stupid and not worth their time. Of my friends who don't read, I think most of them would blame it on not having enough time. then lissa asked: >do you feel that the females read more or less--and why? This is a difficult generalization. I was going to decide I couldn't answer it, but then I thought of the composition of my AP English class: if I'm not forgetting any females, there are 11 females and 2 males. Last semester, in a class of comparable size, there was one male. This is not to say males don't read or don't like English; there are some who are taking two sections of English, just not AP. Still, a ratio of 11 to 2 in the highest level english course my school offers is *way* out of proportion with the senior class--I'd say it's 40 to 50 percent male. Anyway, even though this is interesting, it has not answered Lissa's question about reading. Most of my friends, male and female, enjoy reading (regardless of what english class they are in). The males are more likely to read science fiction, which is no surprise, but I have good female friends who like science fiction too. (--Later--Interested in the number of females and males in the higher-level senior *math* courses, I discovered males make up 1/3 of the AP Calculus class (5 males, 11 females), and exactly 1/4 of my regular calculus class (4 males, 12 females). Hmmm. The rest of the senior class takes precalc, algebra II, or no math. I don't know the numbers in those classes, but the males must be hiding in there somewhere!) lastly, lissa asked: >what is going on in the high schools and around younger people today that makes them think that >feminism is so terrible? i'd love to get your perspective. I may not be a good person to ask about this. My high school has a reputation for being 'liberal', and I've never heard anyone criticized for expressing feminist ideas. We have a Womyn's Issues Club which has male and female members, and I went to a couple meetings, but it was so crowded that I had to sit in the back and I couldn't hear, so it wasn't interesting and I stopped going. Obviously, the club has support from the high school community, and I've never heard it called a group of man-haters or lesbians. It actively invites males and tries to make them feel comfortable, and I don't think the word lesbian has much of a negative connotation since a *lot* of people in the high school are gay, and it's sort of accepted. This is not to say everything is fine and dandy; this is just my perception and the impression I get from the people I hang out with, who tend to think like I do and have the same values. I know there are some homophobic people in the high school, and people who don't like feminism, but in my experience they tend to stay quiet. (They are probably afraid of 300 crusading PC teenagers descending upon them and pummeling them until they agree to change their ideas or be quiet... ;) I hope this has been informative and not too boring. I will now return to lurking, and I look forward to more thought-provoking discussions and books to add to my reading list. ~Kate PS: While I was visiting the biology department at Kenyon, I briefly met Joan Slonczewski, the author of _Door Into Ocean_ (unfortunately, at the time I had no idea who she was). She said that Octavia Butler was coming to Kenyon to get an honorary degree, which I found immensely exciting, because *I* was at Kenyon, and later *Octavia Butler* would be at Kenyon. Wow! Just thought I'd share. From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA145208 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:38:26 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02935 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:38:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA63176; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:33:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 89589 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:33:02 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (kaketch@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu [138.87.1.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA106492 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:22:51 -0500 Received: from localhost by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85842; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:22:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:22:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Karen A. Ketcham" Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <970427181513_1651332303@emout11.mail.aol.com> Status: RO X-Status: Hi I'm Karen. has anyone read Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel? the author has acknowledged an interviewer's opinion of this work to be science fiction. any comments? From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA130116 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:13:45 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03982 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA43816; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:05:12 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 90166 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:05:10 -0500 Received: from luna.cas.usf.edu (sells@luna.cas.usf.edu [131.247.200.133]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA86976 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:03:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (sells@localhost) by luna.cas.usf.edu (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA08862 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:53:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: sells@luna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:53:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: isn't it part of that genre called magical realism or something. Lot's of South American/Latin writers write in this genre, like Isabelle Allende and Borges and Garcia Marquez and such? On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Karen A. Ketcham wrote: > Hi I'm Karen. > has anyone read Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel? the > author has acknowledged an interviewer's opinion of this work to be > science fiction. any comments? > From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA56160 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:40:56 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04849 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:42:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA32336; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:31:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 90476 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:31:05 -0500 Received: from SMTP.USIT.NET (root@smtest.usit.net [199.1.48.16]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA68056 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:19:04 -0500 Received: from [205.241.221.157] (knox-max103.dynamic.usit.net [205.241.221.157]) by SMTP.USIT.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03004 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:19:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: spiney@pop.usit.net References: <970427181513_1651332303@emout11.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:19:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lara Edge Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: I've read "Like Water for Chocolate" and thought it was great! Whether or not it was science fiction is probably still an argument up for grabs. I tend to put it more in the "fantasy" category. Although, I can see an argument for science fiction -- after all, cooking is a type of science and the effect in "Like Water for Chocolate" is definitely a bit out there. But lets face it -- the book appeals to the senses more than the sciences. Her last book (which came with a CD that you were so supposed to listen to at key points in the book) was definitely science fiction. It was set in the future in which television and real life tend to merge. Unfortunately I can't remember the title of it (although it did have the word "Love" in it). I'm in the process of moving and that book is all packed up or I'd look up the title. And on a further note, I'd have to say that this second book pales in comparison to "Like Water for Chocolate." It just didn't appeal to the senses like "Water" did and its scientific nature seemed a bit lacking to me. What do other folks think? Lara >Hi I'm Karen. >has anyone read Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel? the >author has acknowledged an interviewer's opinion of this work to be >science fiction. any comments? From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA168490 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:45:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05038 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:47:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA92978; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:38:15 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 90535 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:38:13 -0500 Received: from ns.labyrinth.net (ns.labyrinth.net [205.161.179.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA96110 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:27:35 -0500 Received: from [205.161.179.201] by ns.labyrinth.net (SMTPD32-3.04) id AAE1E2C0194; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:26:41 -0400 X-Sender: moni@labyrinth.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970427223057.3037918c@labyrinth.net> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Monica Gaudio Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: At 09:53 PM 4/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >isn't it part of that genre called magical realism or something. Lot's of >South American/Latin writers write in this genre, like Isabelle Allende >and Borges and Garcia Marquez and such? I wouldn't call it science fiction. Maybe fantasy. Fantasy is a speculative fiction that starts with a question. It asks what if and then goes, science fiction starts with an answer, some scientific fact and speculates on that. It's the same process just starts in different steps. I might call Like Water for Chocolate Fantasy, but only in the most general sense. I would call it a good read tho. Monica Gaudio From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA100354 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:49:56 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05170 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:52:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA60936; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:45:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 90694 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:45:06 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (kaketch@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu [138.87.1.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA60932 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:44:14 -0500 Received: from localhost by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38494; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:44:13 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:44:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Karen A. Ketcham" Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: I've read some Borges and magical realism sounds like an appropriate genre for works by Laura Esquivel. Could magical realism be considered a subgenre of sf? or have i stepped on the wrong turf here (oops). From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA56072 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:58:42 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05354 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:58:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA116988; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:48:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 90720 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:48:08 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (kaketch@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu [138.87.1.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21476 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:47:49 -0500 Received: from localhost by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43880; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:47:42 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:47:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Karen A. Ketcham" Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Esquivel's latest is called La Ley del Amor (The Law of Love). glad to hear that someone else likes the book. she's got a way of writing about food and sex! Yummm! From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA153684 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:00:35 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05522 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:01:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28464; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:53:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 90822 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:53:03 -0500 Received: from SMTP.USIT.NET (root@smtest.usit.net [199.1.48.16]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA43512 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 21:51:50 -0500 Received: from [205.241.221.157] (knox-max103.dynamic.usit.net [205.241.221.157]) by SMTP.USIT.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05847 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:51:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: spiney@pop.usit.net References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:51:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lara Edge Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: >isn't it part of that genre called magical realism or something. Lot's of >South American/Latin writers write in this genre, like Isabelle Allende >and Borges and Garcia Marquez and such? Yep. Magical realism, to me, seems like fantasy set in our own world. One of my favorite genres. I was a huge Isabelle Allende fan until I found out how she treated one of my best friends -- a struggling photojournalist (Anita Baca) in South America. She and Allende attended a news conference and Allende took her seat and plunked all her photo equipment carelessly on the ground and told Anita to find another seat (Anita had arrived a couple of hours early to get a seat and only after getting up to get a drink of water did the late-arriving Allende take her seat). I don't know, but it seems to me that someone who claims to be a friend to "regular folk" and women's rights and who also been the victim of political changes ought to me a bit more congenial. Anita, who BTW turned me on to her, said Allende believed she had a right to her seat simply because of who she was. Anyway, as much as I like her stories/writing I won't be buying any more of her books. She definitely isn't the person who I thought she was. > >On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Karen A. Ketcham wrote: > >> Hi I'm Karen. >> has anyone read Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel? the >> author has acknowledged an interviewer's opinion of this work to be >> science fiction. any comments? >> From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:08:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA174488 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:59:03 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA09341 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:58:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA34628; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:48:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 93308 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:48:15 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (kaketch@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu [138.87.1.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA35870 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:47:28 -0500 Received: from localhost by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94806; Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:47:27 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Karen A. Ketcham" Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: that incident would make me feel very angry and sad. maybe Allende caught that disease called "tokenism"? goodnight. On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Lara Edge wrote: > >isn't it part of that genre called magical realism or something. Lot's of > >South American/Latin writers write in this genre, like Isabelle Allende > >and Borges and Garcia Marquez and such? > > Yep. Magical realism, to me, seems like fantasy set in our own world. One > of my favorite genres. I was a huge Isabelle Allende fan until I found out > how she treated one of my best friends -- a struggling photojournalist > (Anita Baca) in South America. She and Allende attended a news conference > and Allende took her seat and plunked all her photo equipment carelessly on > the ground and told Anita to find another seat (Anita had arrived a couple > of hours early to get a seat and only after getting up to get a drink of > water did the late-arriving Allende take her seat). I don't know, but it > seems to me that someone who claims to be a friend to "regular folk" and > women's rights and who also been the victim of political changes ought to > me a bit more congenial. Anita, who BTW turned me on to her, said Allende > believed she had a right to her seat simply because of who she was. > Anyway, as much as I like her stories/writing I won't be buying any more of > her books. She definitely isn't the person who I thought she was. > > > > >On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Karen A. Ketcham wrote: > > > >> Hi I'm Karen. > >> has anyone read Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel? the > >> author has acknowledged an interviewer's opinion of this work to be > >> science fiction. any comments? > >> > From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:10:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA171940 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:16:13 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08611 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:17:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA100390; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:46:34 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 8186 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:46:33 -0500 Received: from sums2.reading.ac.uk (sums2.rdg.ac.uk [134.225.44.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA76088 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:44:51 -0500 Received: from suma3.rdg.ac.uk (actually host suma3-e3.rdg.ac.uk) by sums2.rdg.ac.uk with ESMTP; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:41:12 +0100 Received: from localhost by suma3.rdg.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06900; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:41:09 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:41:08 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Feminist "hard sf" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Robin Gordon wrote: > The question of whether "hard sf" can be feminist, or is it oxymoronic, > all depends on what you mean by "hard sf", of course. Everything is a > question of language. If you mean highly technological sf, then there are > some feminist hard sf around. And it depends on what you mean by "feminist" too. What about C.J. Cherryh, for instance? Her sf is undoubtedly "hard" by usual definitions (there's a lot of space hardware and lots of technology, for instance). Her concerns are often the same as those of male "hard sf" writers: she writes a lot about power, and about violence, and, like many male hard sf writers, seems to come from the political right (which to a European looks rather like the far right). Yet many of her leading characters are women -- usually tough, ambitious women, succeeding in a future world in which women _can_ succeed. Does this make her feminist? Edward James ............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:10:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA40164 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:33:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10177 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:32:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA68086; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:17:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9267 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:17:05 -0500 Received: from nevis.u.arizona.edu (nevis.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.19]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA67192 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:16:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (lorie@localhost) by nevis.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA54256 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:14:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:14:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lorie G Sauble-otto Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a masculinist construct. On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Karen A. Ketcham wrote: > I've read some Borges and magical realism sounds like an appropriate genre > for works by Laura Esquivel. Could magical realism be considered a > subgenre of sf? or have i stepped on the wrong turf here (oops). > Lorie Sauble-Otto Dept. of French & Italian Mod Lang 549 The University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:10:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA176120 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:20:42 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26238 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:18:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26234; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:46:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 13559 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:46:04 -0500 Received: from pimaia2w.prodigy.com (pimaia2w.prodigy.com [198.83.19.115]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA31296 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:45:23 -0500 Received: from mime4.prodigy.com (mime4.prodigy.com [192.168.254.43]) by pimaia2w.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA29060 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:22:52 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by mime4.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id OAA14152 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:14:57 -0400 X-Mailer: Prodigy Internet GW(v0.9beta) - ae02dm02sc06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <199704281814.OAA14152@mime4.prodigy.com> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 14:14:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Feminist "hard sf" To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Do some novels by Melissa Scott qualify as feminist hard SF? (This is my not-too-subtle way of trying to get a Melissa Scott discussion going in advance of Wiscon where she's guest of honor.) BTW, I've read one of her novels - Mighty Good Road - and found it difficult to enjoy - perhaps too much technology and not enough character development, humor, action for my taste. The matter-of-fact lesbianism of the heroine was a nice touch. But maybe I started with the wrong Scott novel. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com "If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:12:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA114140; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:15:18 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17163; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA60102; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:31:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20235 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:31:24 -0500 Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (root@[204.128.247.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05176 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:29:44 -0500 Received: from neilrest.tezcat.com (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA04520 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:29:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: NeilRest@tezcat.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970428172802.006ae82c@tezcat.com> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:28:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Lorie G Sauble-Otto wrote: >Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a >discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to >begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the >evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a >masculinist construct. Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist about "hard science"? And as to the genre, are you saying that hard sf has been sexist (which is pretty much inarguable!), or are you saying, much more broadly, that "genre" is somehow sexist? Hoping that in requesting greater clarity I've been clear myself, Neil Rest From ???@??? Tue Apr 29 09:13:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA126520; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:38:49 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA22811; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:38:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA76516; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:15:14 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22614 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:15:10 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA73240 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:13:24 -0500 Received: from akr-oh1-25.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh1-25.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.57]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id TAA08600 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:59:32 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970428201630.3b7f4116@kent.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:59:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: At 05:28 PM 4/28/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: >Lorie G Sauble-Otto wrote: >>Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a >>discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to >>begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the >>evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a >>masculinist construct. > >Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. >Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of >method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist >about "hard science"? > Well, yes, in a certain sense. Science consists of formulating a hypothesis, then proving it. In order to prove it, you have to "establish as true, demonstrate [it] to be a fact." A fact is "the state of things as they are, reality, actuality, truth." As long as the feminine experience continues to be invalidated by patriarchy, and patriarchy maintains its stranglehold over what is truth and reality, science continues to be sexist. The proof also has to be communicated via language. And language has its own allegiances to patriarchy. Note that this is argued from a fairly radical feminist stance, and this very syllogistic answer also relies on patriarchal modes of thought. Which may therefore invalidate it. *grins* Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Thu May 01 13:57:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA185190; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:38:38 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29489; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:33:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA76924; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:03:30 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 6801 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:03:29 -0500 Received: from io.uwinnipeg.ca ([142.132.1.12]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA82546 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:02:42 -0500 Received: from coned.uwinnipeg.ca (coned.uwinnipeg.ca [142.132.15.2]) by io.uwinnipeg.ca (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05244 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:04:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CONT_ED_ADMIN/SpoolDir by coned.uwinnipeg.ca (Mercury 1.21); 29 Apr 97 10:04:45 gmt+6 Received: from SpoolDir by CONT_ED_ADMIN (Mercury 1.21); 29 Apr 97 10:04:23 gmt+6 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Message-ID: <10657F23EA6@coned.uwinnipeg.ca> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:04:20 CDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mary Ann Beavis, IUS" Organization: The University of Winnipeg Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970428201630.3b7f4116@kent.edu> Status: RO X-Status: Let's face it, the phrase "hard science" has a pretty macho ring to it! It's probably no accident that men "dominate" the "hard sciences," whereas women tend to be attracted to the "softer" disciplines and social sciences. Just an opinion. From ???@??? Thu May 01 13:57:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA38608; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:57:08 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02186; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:55:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17062; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:23:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 7416 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:23:08 -0500 Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (root@[204.128.247.10]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA127858 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:21:25 -0500 Received: from neilrest.tezcat.com (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id KAA06573 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:21:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: NeilRest@tezcat.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429101927.006bf6dc@tezcat.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970428201630.3b7f4116@kent.edu> Status: RO X-Status: In response to Lorie G Sauble-Otto , I wrote: >>Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. >>Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of >>method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist >>about "hard science"? Heather MacLean replied: >Well, yes, in a certain sense. Science consists of formulating a >hypothesis, then proving it. In order to prove it, you have to "establish >as true, demonstrate [it] to be a fact." A fact is "the state of things as >they are, reality, actuality, truth." As long as the feminine experience >continues to be invalidated by patriarchy, and patriarchy maintains its >stranglehold over what is truth and reality, science continues to be sexist. > >The proof also has to be communicated via language. And language has its own >allegiances to patriarchy. > >Note that this is argued from a fairly radical feminist stance, and this >very syllogistic answer also relies on patriarchal modes of thought. Which >may therefore invalidate it. *grins* If a fascist sexist pig walks off the top of a building, he will fall with an acceleration of 32 feet per second per second, and probably be killed, splattering his DNA all over the place. If a pagan feminist, who is really really in touch with herself and Mother Earth, walks off the top of a building, she will fall with an acceleration of 32 feet per second per second, and probably be killed, splattering her DNA all over the place. This is "the state of things as they are, reality, actuality, truth.". It is equally true in Chicago, Cuzco, Cairo and Lhasa. In the vitally important work of disentangling ourselves from the imprisonment of our assumptions, some of which are deeply embedded in our culture and language, let's not be idiots. One of the attractions of science fiction is the seriousness with which it can consider our relations with the universe at large. Certainly, sf began with much more limited horizons, and, we hope, much more constricting preconceptions than we have now. It is our hope that we contribute to the broadining of horizons and further clarification of vision(s), but we do stand on the shoulders of giants, albeit human giants. "Reality is what doesn't go away when you aren't looking." Neil From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:00:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAB74994; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:51:57 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08255; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:52:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA103122; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:13:28 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 8793 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:13:27 -0500 Received: from mail.kent.edu (mail.kent.edu [131.123.14.252]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA71306 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:12:36 -0500 Received: from akr-oh3-18.ix.netcom.com (akr-oh3-18.ix.netcom.com [205.184.157.114]) by mail.kent.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA04438 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:58:41 -0400 X-Sender: hmaclean@kent.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970429121535.326fb632@kent.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Neil -- I was not debating that certain laws of physics seem to be unimpeachably rigid. The original question was about _hard_ science as sexist. _Hard_ science (among which physics) pretends to fully describe reality. The problem is that there is a whole bunch of stuff that constitutes "reality" which is not in the realm of _hard_ science. And is therefore *devalued*, in terms of describing reality, when contrasted with hard science. That's all. Note that under the laws of quantum mechanics, either your fascist, sexist pig or your pagan feminist may or may not splatter. =) The odds are pretty heavy that they will, however, you're right. Heather idiot extraordinaire =) >In response to Lorie G Sauble-Otto , I wrote: >>>Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. >>>Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of >>>method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist >>>about "hard science"? > >Heather MacLean replied: >>Well, yes, in a certain sense. Science consists of formulating a >>hypothesis, then proving it. In order to prove it, you have to "establish >>as true, demonstrate [it] to be a fact." A fact is "the state of things as >>they are, reality, actuality, truth." As long as the feminine experience >>continues to be invalidated by patriarchy, and patriarchy maintains its >>stranglehold over what is truth and reality, science continues to be sexist. >> >>The proof also has to be communicated via language. And language has its own >>allegiances to patriarchy. >> >>Note that this is argued from a fairly radical feminist stance, and this >>very syllogistic answer also relies on patriarchal modes of thought. Which >>may therefore invalidate it. *grins* > Neil responds: >If a fascist sexist pig walks off the top of a building, he will fall with >an acceleration of 32 feet per second per second, and probably be killed, >splattering his DNA all over the place. > >If a pagan feminist, who is really really in touch with herself and Mother >Earth, walks off the top of a building, she will fall with an acceleration >of 32 feet per second per second, and probably be killed, splattering her >DNA all over the place. > >This is "the state of things as they are, reality, actuality, truth.". It >is equally true in Chicago, Cuzco, Cairo and Lhasa. > hmaclean@kent.edu http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:00:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA63322; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:51:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08361; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:52:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA87846; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:33:12 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9400 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:33:11 -0500 Received: from lucia.u.arizona.edu (lucia.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.26]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAB47900 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:31:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (lorie@localhost) by lucia.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA51098 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:29:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:29:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lorie G Sauble-otto Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970428172802.006ae82c@tezcat.com> Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Neil Rest wrote: > Lorie G Sauble-Otto wrote: > >Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a > >discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to > >begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the > >evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a > >masculinist construct. > > Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. > Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of > method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist > about "hard science"? > Take a look at the discouse of reproductive technology and the way it is represented in fem sci-fi for an idea of what I am implying. > And as to the genre, are you saying that hard sf has been sexist (which is > pretty much inarguable!), or are you saying, much more broadly, that > "genre" is somehow sexist? Guess I'm saying "yes" to both. > > > Hoping that in requesting greater clarity I've been clear myself, > Neil Rest > Lorie Sauble-Otto Dept. of French & Italian Mod Lang 549 The University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:00:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA82936; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:06:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09513; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:03:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA33516; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:35:24 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 9474 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:35:22 -0500 Received: from lucia.u.arizona.edu (lucia.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.26]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA84352 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:33:25 -0500 Received: from localhost (lorie@localhost) by lucia.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA41144 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:31:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:31:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lorie G Sauble-otto Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970428201630.3b7f4116@kent.edu> Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Heather MacLean wrote: > At 05:28 PM 4/28/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: > >Lorie G Sauble-Otto wrote: > >>Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a > >>discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to > >>begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the > >>evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a > >>masculinist construct. > > > >Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. > >Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of > >method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist > >about "hard science"? > > > > Well, yes, in a certain sense. Science consists of formulating a > hypothesis, then proving it. In order to prove it, you have to "establish > as true, demonstrate [it] to be a fact." A fact is "the state of things as > they are, reality, actuality, truth." As long as the feminine experience > continues to be invalidated by patriarchy, and patriarchy maintains its > stranglehold over what is truth and reality, science continues to be sexist. > > The proof also has to be communicated via language. And language has its own > allegiances to patriarchy. > > Note that this is argued from a fairly radical feminist stance, and this > very syllogistic answer also relies on patriarchal modes of thought. Which > may therefore invalidate it. *grins* Thank you for your much more eloquent conveyance of my ideas. lorie > > Heather > =) > > > > hmaclean@kent.edu > http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ > Lorie Sauble-Otto Dept. of French & Italian Mod Lang 549 The University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:01:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA191676; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:53:08 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14090; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:48:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17006; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:27:11 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10502 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:27:09 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA89894 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:26:01 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:13:16 +0100 Received: from kmpc16 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA25661; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:14:01 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:13:58 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Re Magic realism: this isn't a comment so much as a request. I have been turned right off the *concept* of magic realism (not the literature itself), not because of the quality of the literature but because of the appalling standard of the three academic papers I have listened to on the topic. I would really appreciate it if any body could either explain to me what it is, or point me in the direction of a lucid article on the topic. Farah From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:01:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA57638; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:08:11 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15672; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:03:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA39300; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:27:14 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10507 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:27:12 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA63290 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:26:09 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:25:06 +0100 Received: from kmpc16 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA26799; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:25:54 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:25:50 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Hard sf To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:14:32 -0700 Lorie G Sauble-otto wrote: > From: Lorie G Sauble-otto > Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:14:32 -0700 > Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a > discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to > begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the > evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a > masculinist construct. > > This sounds a little like the determinist argument that women are gentle and men hard -- an argument used by both strands of feminism and masculinism. I am not terribly keen on it. There were women involved in the construction of "hard-sf" in the earliest days. You can't after all, get much harder than Frankenstein. Farah > From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:01:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA221002; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:08:13 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15907; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:06:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA129906; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:33:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10587 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:33:24 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA67202 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:32:41 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:30:16 +0100 Received: from kmpc16 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA27239; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:31:00 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:30:56 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: hard sf To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:28:02 -0500 Neil Rest wrote: > From: Neil Rest > Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:28:02 -0500 > Subject: Re: Fwd: Like Water for Chocolate > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Lorie G Sauble-Otto wrote: > >Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a > >discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to > >begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the > >evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a > >masculinist construct. > > Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. > Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of > method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist > about "hard science"? > > And as to the genre, are you saying that hard sf has been sexist (which is > pretty much inarguable!), or are you saying, much more broadly, that > "genre" is somehow sexist? > > > Hoping that in requesting greater clarity I've been clear myself, > Neil Rest Neil is right I feel. I want the right to take on whatever approaches feel valuable. I am also wary of any approach which condemns by association. Hard sf does not have to be sexist. It claims, after all, an objectivity. That it does not always live up to this is something that can be worked on, and in fact the genre demands that it be worked on. John Huntingdon's book, Rationalising Genius, makes this point very carefully in an analysis of The Cold Equations, a story which relies on our acceptance of a spurious logic and objectivity. Hard sf done well ought to be able to deal with the social structure as it is and as it may be, sexism is *not* intrinsic in the genre. Farah. ps. please could people rememer to change headings when they change topics. Much of this debate is going on under Like Water For Chocolate. From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:01:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA42836; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:08:13 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16050; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:07:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16734; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:35:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10612 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:35:08 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA129810 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:33:58 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:32:54 +0100 Received: from kmpc16 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA27517; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:33:47 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:33:44 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:59:32 -0400 Heather MacLean wrote: > From: Heather MacLean > Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:59:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: Science as sexist > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > At 05:28 PM 4/28/97 -0500, Neil Rest wrote: > >Lorie G Sauble-Otto wrote: > >>Let's be careful in a "feminist" discussion of SF--When we start in with a > >>discourse based on "hard science" it gets sticky and sexist. We need to > >>begin--as Many Many people, especially women, already have--to realize the > >>evolution of the genre--the traditionalist approach to genre is based on a > >>masculinist construct. > > > >Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. > >Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of > >method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist > >about "hard science"? > > > > Well, yes, in a certain sense. Science consists of formulating a > hypothesis, then proving it. In order to prove it, you have to "establish > as true, demonstrate [it] to be a fact." A fact is "the state of things as > they are, reality, actuality, truth." As long as the feminine experience > continues to be invalidated by patriarchy, and patriarchy maintains its > stranglehold over what is truth and reality, science continues to be sexist. > > The proof also has to be communicated via language. And language has its own > allegiances to patriarchy. > > Note that this is argued from a fairly radical feminist stance, and this > very syllogistic answer also relies on patriarchal modes of thought. Which > may therefore invalidate it. *grins* > > Heather > =) > Science is also a discourse between competing theories. If I followed your ideas, however, I would be reading astrology not science fiction. I too believe in radical feminism, but this does not invalidate science or the scientific method, it just means that we have to reconsider what objectivity looks like (particularly in areas such as biology). Farah > > > hmaclean@kent.edu > http://kent.edu/~hmaclean/ From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:01:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA105902; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:14:33 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16480; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:11:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA89990; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:46:21 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10651 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:46:20 -0500 Received: from smtp.utexas.edu (smtp.utexas.edu [128.83.126.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA43894 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:35:15 -0500 Received: (qmail-queue invoked from smtpd); 29 Apr 1997 17:35:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.utexas.edu) (128.83.126.1) by smtp.utexas.edu with SMTP; 29 Apr 1997 17:35:12 -0000 Received: from [128.83.112.31] (slip-35-15.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.31]) by mail.utexas.edu with SMTP id MAA20598 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:35:08 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:35:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tonya Browning Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: I'm interested in this hard science/soft science debate in terms of science fiction, because I believe (as people have mentioned) science fiction reflects a similar delineation in science. Sarah Lefanu (great critic BTW) has discussed this polarity: Soft mean[s] concerned with the new sciences such as psychology, linguistics, ecology (and sociology and town planning), with a critique of the uses of technology, and with the social structures of the future. Hard SF was associated with the traditional male writer: soft, of course, was what the women were" ("Sex, Sub-atomic Particles and Sociology" 179). As Donna Haraway mentions in her writing, a hesitancy to stake claims on male territory is indicative of stereotypical male/female roles in society, where men control/create the mechanized and women are figured as purely organic creators. The proliferation of ecologically and politically based feminist utopias is often used as justification for such stereotypes, based on the genre concept of "hard" and "soft" science fiction. In a world of ever-increasing technology, such dualities must be negated by female authorship without invalidating the feminist scholarship that has preceded it. For centuries females have been dissuaded from choosing the "hard" sciences (usually involving technology) like physics and astronomy, and in a prejudiced scientific community often found a higher level of acceptance in the "soft" sciences like sociology and psychology. A mimetic reflection of this tendency can be found in scientific fictions, the science fiction originally written for those interested in sciences. Unfortunately, the bad is reflected with the good, and females have been excluded from the respected arena of hard science fiction as a result. Feminist revisions of what constitutes soft science fiction have been to the genre's benefit, but the problem of synthesis still remains. Whew. I hope that made sense. If we agree that the polarity itself (hard/soft) is problematic, I guess we should take a look at women who write "hard" science fiction. David mentioned Melissa Scott as a hard science fiction writer. I would suggest Pat Cadigan for the same reason-both women are part of the cyberpunk/post-cyberpunk genre. As science fiction authors neither hesitate to use a level of technology often associated with hard science fiction, yet as "cyberpunk writers" (Cadigan's _Synners_ and Scott's _Trouble and Her Friends_) both use that power in order to critique the technology (& rubrics of sexuality, etc) itself. Their work often subverts stereotypes unlike writers like William Gibson or Bruce Sterling (try _Islands in the Net_ as one example). Tonya From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:01:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA57652; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:08:11 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15848; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:05:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA67120; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:41:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10709 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:41:06 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA99504 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:40:48 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:39:07 +0100 Received: from kmpc16 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA28020; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:39:55 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:39:52 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:04:20 CDT Mary Ann Beavis, IUS wrote: > From: Mary Ann Beavis, IUS > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:04:20 CDT > Subject: Re: Science as sexist > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Let's face it, the phrase "hard science" has a pretty macho ring to > it! It's probably no accident that men "dominate" the "hard > sciences," whereas women tend to be attracted to the "softer" > disciplines and social sciences. Just an opinion. This is a historical phenomenon not the call of biological destiny. Women tend to have been involved in all sciences a. where the education was available to them and b. where such activity was considered amateur and aristocratic. When an activity is professionalised or gains in status it usually does so by laying down qualifications for entry, and for some reason the correct genitalia appears to be crucial. This has applied from everything to brewing, mathematics, medicine, teaching and English literature. After all, its not that long ago that classicswas considered too difficult and too prurient for girls. Only after it lost its status were girls encouraged to do classics (girls are *so* good at languages aren't they???), or perhaps it was their very entry which lowered the status of the profession. Farah From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:02:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA149578; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:36:35 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18731; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:32:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30672; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:51:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10855 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:51:07 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA33486 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:49:19 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:45:35 +0100 Received: from kmpc16 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id SAA28558; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:46:24 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:46:20 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:19:27 -0500 Neil Rest wrote: > From: Neil Rest > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:19:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: Science as sexist > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > In response to Lorie G Sauble-Otto , I wrote: > >>Excuse me? It appears that you are saying that "hard science" is sexist. > >>Certainly the human conduct of the activity may be, but in the sense of > >>method and results, do you mean that there is something intrinsicly sexist > >>about "hard science"? > > Heather MacLean replied: > >Well, yes, in a certain sense. Science consists of formulating a > >hypothesis, then proving it. In order to prove it, you have to "establish > >as true, demonstrate [it] to be a fact." A fact is "the state of things as > >they are, reality, actuality, truth." As long as the feminine experience > >continues to be invalidated by patriarchy, and patriarchy maintains its > >stranglehold over what is truth and reality, science continues to be sexist. > > > >The proof also has to be communicated via language. And language has its own > >allegiances to patriarchy. > > > >Note that this is argued from a fairly radical feminist stance, and this > >very syllogistic answer also relies on patriarchal modes of thought. Which > >may therefore invalidate it. *grins* > > If a fascist sexist pig walks off the top of a building, he will fall with > an acceleration of 32 feet per second per second, and probably be killed, > splattering his DNA all over the place. > > If a pagan feminist, who is really really in touch with herself and Mother > Earth, walks off the top of a building, she will fall with an acceleration > of 32 feet per second per second, and probably be killed, splattering her > DNA all over the place. > > This is "the state of things as they are, reality, actuality, truth.". It > is equally true in Chicago, Cuzco, Cairo and Lhasa. > > In the vitally important work of disentangling ourselves from the > imprisonment of our assumptions, some of which are deeply embedded in our > culture and language, let's not be idiots. > > > One of the attractions of science fiction is the seriousness with which it > can consider our relations with the universe at large. Certainly, sf began > with much more limited horizons, and, we hope, much more constricting > preconceptions than we have now. It is our hope that we contribute to the > broadining of horizons and further clarification of vision(s), but we do > stand on the shoulders of giants, albeit human giants. > > > "Reality is what doesn't go away when you aren't looking." > Neil My previous reply to heather may or may not have failed to get through (the mail server went down - a little hard fact for you) so I will repeat my points which essentially coincide with Neil (just to add a feminine voice here). I too subscribe to a radical feminist understanding of the world, but it doesn't alter the reality of science. If I thought otherwise, I would be reading astrology not sf. The real issue is that scientists (human beings remember) have often claimed a false objectivity, and it is this we should be challenging -- the claim to scientific status for spurious thinking. Such thinking should be challenged whether it is filling human skulls with sand to test the intelligence of men and women, blacks and whites, orusing the male body to assess the correct dose of a medication. In science fiction, we should be prepared to pounce on such sloppy thinking like hawks, not start muttering that hard science is intrinsicially sexist. There is a very nice piece by John Huntingdon in his book Rationalizing Genius which does just this, criticizing the story The Cold Equations for its flawed "objectivity" which actually masks acute sexism. On another note, it is always useful to remember that the first piece of hard sf, Frankenstein -- the extrapolation of the logical consequences of a scientific development -- was written by a woman. Farah From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:01:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA112150; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:17:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16829; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:15:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16872; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:57:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 10820 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:57:05 -0500 Received: from science.aaas.org (science.aaas.org [198.151.217.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA108816 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:46:15 -0500 Received: from smtplink.aaas.org (smtplink.aaas.org [198.151.217.5]) by science.aaas.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA07556; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ccMail by smtplink.aaas.org (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00051A1C; Tue, 29 Apr 97 13:42:50 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Message-ID: <00051A1C.1205@aaas.org> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:48:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re[2]: Science as sexist Comments: To: Heather MacLean To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Neil -- I was not debating that certain laws of physics seem to be unimpeachably rigid. The original question was about _hard_ science as sexist. _Hard_ science (among which physics) pretends to fully describe reality. The problem is that there is a whole bunch of stuff that constitutes "reality" which is not in the realm of _hard_ science. And is therefore *devalued*, in terms of describing reality, when contrasted with hard science. That's all. Note that under the laws of quantum mechanics, either your fascist, sexist pig or your pagan feminist may or may not splatter. =) The odds are pretty heavy that they will, however, you're right. Heather idiot extraordinaire =) I didn't want this to be my first post to this excellent list, but I'll jump right in. Science is more than just physical facts. Science in this century has certainly moved away from hard deterministic notions that everything can be EXACTLY known. (i.e. relativity, quantum mechanics, etc.) Please keep in mind that what is researched depends very much on worldviews, cultural mores, and politics. Why is so much research money getting poured into the biological sciences? Because there is profit to be made. The science professions are also dominated by men. This has to affect how they do science. BTW, let me put some positive votes for Slonczewski's "Door Into Ocean" and Piercy's "Woman on the Edge of Time" and "He, She and It." Chuck Munson Webmaster American Association for the Advancement of Science From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:02:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA175296; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:02:20 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21174; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:58:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA81258; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:24:01 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 11852 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:24:00 -0500 Received: from luna.cas.usf.edu (luna.cas.usf.edu [131.247.200.133]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA61020 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:23:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (sells@localhost) by luna.cas.usf.edu (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA17001 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:12:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: sells@luna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:12:14 -0400 Reply-To: Laura Sells Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Sells Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970429101927.006bf6dc@tezcat.com> Status: O X-Status: Well, there is a whole body of feminist literature out there about sexism in science. And about how science is intrinsically sexist. And I am sort of surprised that no one has brought that up yet in this discussion. If you study the philosophy and history of science, you will see how the philosophical beliefs that fund science are sexist. In fact you can trace this back to Aristotle, even. (A good book on this is Genevieve Lloyd's _The Man of Reason: Male and Female in Western Philosophy, U Minnesota P, 1984). F. Bacon's famous line about strapping nature to the rack to probe her for her essential truths is one example. But beyond the sexist attitudes of famous philosophers of science, which undoubtedly influence the way science has developed, there are other sexist dimensions to science as well. One is the epistemological structure of objectivity. (As radical feminist Dale Spender points out, Objectivity is just another word for male subjectivity.) Objectivity is a sexist practice. There are several hundred publications that make this argument. Probably one of the most well known authors on this subject is Sandra Harding, but also Donna Haraway, Nancy Hartsock, Evelyn Fox Keller, Sue Rosser, Ruth Bleier, and many others. Sandra Harding is very accessible on this subject. Then there are the institutional structures of science, things like how many women are actually scientists, how many women get funded for research, how many women are encouraged to practice science, yada yada. As a result, science is sexist not only in philosophy but in practice as well. What happens as a result is that the "culture" of science is a male culture, exhibiting male values, and generalizing from masculine worldviews to the rest of the world. Brian Easlea, who I believe is a nuclear physicist, talks about the male culture of the science lab. He is very readable. Now, I know that this discussion is starting to get off the topic, which is feminist science fiction. But if we take Donna Haraway's starting point, which is that all science is really only science fiction, maybe we are not so far afield after all. Happy reading, Laura Sells University of South Florida Department of Women's Studies From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:03:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA127554; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:13:46 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22637; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:12:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA45310; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:31:26 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 12037 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:31:25 -0500 Received: from halcyon.com (ltimmel@chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA127358 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:29:35 -0500 Received: by halcyon.com id AA25944 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu); Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:29:32 -0700 Message-ID: <199704291829.AA25944@halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:29:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: science & science fiction To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: Anyone who wants to talk about "hard science fiction" needs to be *explicitly* clear about the following: (1) Science fiction, including "hard science fiction," is a form of literature, not science. It never occured to me that this was a problem until I read an article by a college English instructor in the Spring, 1997 issue of _Extrapolation_ actually claiming that "hard sf" is a "branch" of science: a mistake only someone who is completely ignorant about the practice of science could make; and (2) "hard sf" grossly misrepresents how science works and how practicing scientists conduct research. Practicing scientists work collectively and collaboratively. My partner of 27 years is a research mathematician whose work has included not only the most abstract forms of differential geometry, but many applied science projects as well (ranging from oceanography, geology, mathematical anthropology, to his current work constructing algorithims for a computer graphics team). Though mathematics is the least technology-dependent science discipline, he, like the many dozens of his colleagues I've met, almost *never* works alone. Two or three times a year we have visitors in our house, mathematicians who work long-distance with him, who need intense personal contact, involving hours of talk, of drawing pictures for one another, of trying out various possibilities, interspersed with sessions in which each person works by him- or herself. I washed laboratory dishes & did other lab housekeeping tasks about 25 years ago in a genetics lab-- there the collective process was even more evident. Many of my friends have been biologists, who never work alone, but always in groups. & for the last year and a half, I've been copy-editing medical research papers. The ONLY single-author papers come from clinical physicians writing up a case-study about an interesting clinical observation. All the real research papers are written by multiple authors. Nothing could be more obvious but that science is almost never practiced individually. & yet hard sf represents scientists as individual heroes with unique intellects. Popular representations of science-- including the way the Nobel Prizes are packaged & contextualized-- are largely responsible for this image. But the fact was, Einstein & all those other scientists at Gottingen were not loners. It's no accident that they chose to congregate, rather than living off in garrets sweating out the feats of their genius alone. Nor was it an accident that the physicists sequestered at Los Alamos to work on developing the atom bomb. In science, synergy is the name of the game. In real life, the collective aspect of science practice is conducive to feminist forms of interaction (if only the political & economic contexts that determine funding & research priorities didn't drive science in feminist-unfriendly ways). In short, "hard sf" projects a narrative ideology congenial to a certain way of looking at the world. The story it tells is a simplistic, fake version of how science works. It leaves out the sociology of knowledge, and the political and economic framing that real scientists would love to escape. I would note, though, that real world science & hard sf are both driven by an ethic of the "possible," viz., the desire to do & to discover or learn what is possible, by the definition of knowledge as the conquest of the unknown, *regardless of the consequences*. This ethic proclaims that if something *can* be done, or known, then it *should* be done, or discovered, simply because it hasn't been before, & is therefore a challenge to human amour propre. *This*, not the methods of science per se, is where feminism confronts science as a problem. & this ethic (besides a certain boy's club mentality) is what the self-proclaimed "real hard sf" afficionados refuse to allow feminist depictions of science, however accurate (& however based on the real-world science experience of the writers), to be called "hard." Timmi Duchamp From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:04:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA75184; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:19:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29585; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:20:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA63462; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:04:01 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 13044 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:04:00 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA64104 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:01:49 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27694; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:03:59 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:03:58 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: I do not see the proper, basic underpinnings of science as sexist. However, the scientific community/culture/etc (at least the "popular" notion of it) is an entirely different matter. I would posit that much of that culture is not only sexist but racist, classist, and hetero-sexist. Rather than going into all the gory details of the faults of this culture/society thing I will explain my views on the feminism of basic science. The way I understand science is that it is based on the principle that our concepts of the universe are always probably flawed/incomplete. However, we should always be testing them and trying to make them better. One way that I understand feminism is that our current conceptions of sex/gender and society are flawed/incomplete. And, we should test them and make them better. Going one step further (sort of, as I understand it) into Queer theory, we will always have inaccurate, incomplete conceptions about ourselves as a group and we should always be testing and refining them. So, I see some of the basic ideas of both science and queer theory (hence certain brands of feminism) as being exceedingly similar. (always question). The difference seems to be one of what to focus the questioning on. Here is an idea, "hard sci-fi" focuses on physical science/engineering whereas feminist sci-fi focuses on society (esp. gender roles). So we seem to be lacking feminist "hard sci-fi" because it would have to focus on both things at once. While there are certainly works that attempt to do just that, it is generally a very tough thing to pull off. Also, it very easy for the readers to disregard one focus or another. However, it is possible that "hard sci-fi" and feminist (well, at least Queer by my definition) sci-fi share many of the same underlying ideas. I can't help but think of Joan Slonckzewski's _A_Door_Into_Ocean_ as an example of a book that deal with both. I find it interesting that she is Quaker (and that that is found to be generally interesting in this forum) because one of the lesser-known but perhaps stranger tenets of Quakerism is that of "continuing revelation." The basic idea is that we are always learning (being shown maybe (for some)) more and different (more advanced/refined maybe) things about our world, ourselves, our spiritual aspects, and everyhting. Well, at least that's how I understand it. -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:05:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA39288; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:30:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00328; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:28:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA67184; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:39:19 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 14079 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:39:17 -0500 Received: from gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA115260 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:38:26 -0500 Received: from govonca2.gov.on.ca by gov.on.ca (5.65v3.2/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA30810; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:38:27 -0400 Received: from localhost by govonca2.gov.on.ca; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/03Nov94-0842PM) id PAA14537; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:38:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Gordon Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Tonya Browning wrote: > Sarah Lefanu (great critic BTW) has discussed this polarity: > Soft mean[s] concerned with the new sciences such as psychology, > linguistics, ecology (and sociology and town planning), with a critique of > the uses of technology, and with the social structures of the future. Hard > SF was associated with the traditional male writer: soft, of course, was > what the women were" ("Sex, Sub-atomic Particles and Sociology" 179). and... > respected arena of hard science fiction as a result. Feminist revisions of > what constitutes soft science fiction have been to the genre's benefit, but > the problem of synthesis still remains. > > Tonya I totally agree with you Tonya. So then, one (not the only) feminist project in sf is for women writers to take up the challenge of writing about high-technology future scenarios with an eye to feminist issues and understandings of the humanities and social sciences. While some authors have done this with fantastic results, there are still very few women writing high-tech futures, cyberpunk, or space exploration focussed fiction compared to the emergence of strong women writers in other parts of the fantasy/sf genre. I think one of the most insidious trends in modern science fiction is the assumption that by whatever point in the future an author is concerned with sexism will have inevitably vanished. While this is of course preferable to much of the more blatantly sexist sf that revels in the resurgence of unchallenged patriarchy, or other worlds of extreme sexism, it adds to the complacency that makes challenging sexism today so very difficult. The theory goes like this (I'm sure you're all too familiar with it), history is on a unilinear trajectory of progress and improvement, and having set the wheels in motion towards the equality of the sexes, the future will just inevitably achieve sexual equality. It's the Gene Roddenberry view of the world underlying the Star Trek series (and many others). More often that not it's a good excuse for male authors to ignore issues of sex, or similarly race, or sexual orientation, for that matter any issues of social inequality and conflict. From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:06:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA120128; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:22:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05377; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:18:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA127018; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:36:42 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 15669 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:36:40 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA39934 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:35:05 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 29 Apr 97 15:35:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:35:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Tonya Browning wrote: > I'm interested in this hard science/soft science debate in terms of science > fiction, because I believe (as people have mentioned) science fiction > reflects a similar delineation in science. > > Sarah Lefanu (great critic BTW) has discussed this polarity: > Soft mean[s] concerned with the new sciences such as psychology, > linguistics, ecology (and sociology and town planning), with a critique of > the uses of technology, and with the social structures of the future. Hard > SF was associated with the traditional male writer: soft, of course, was > what the women were" ("Sex, Sub-atomic Particles and Sociology" 179). > > As Donna Haraway mentions in her writing, a hesitancy to stake claims on > male territory is indicative of stereotypical male/female roles in society, > where men control/create the mechanized and women are figured as purely > organic creators. The proliferation of ecologically and politically based > feminist utopias is often used as justification for such stereotypes, based > on the genre concept of "hard" and "soft" science fiction. In a world of > ever-increasing technology, such dualities must be negated by female > authorship without invalidating the feminist scholarship that has preceded > it. For centuries females have been dissuaded from choosing the "hard" > sciences (usually involving technology) like physics and astronomy, and in > a prejudiced scientific community often found a higher level of acceptance > in the "soft" sciences like sociology and psychology. A mimetic reflection > of this tendency can be found in scientific fictions, the science fiction > originally written for those interested in sciences. Unfortunately, the > bad is reflected with the good, and females have been excluded from the > respected arena of hard science fiction as a result. Feminist revisions of > what constitutes soft science fiction have been to the genre's benefit, but > the problem of synthesis still remains. > > Whew. I hope that made sense. If we agree that the polarity itself > (hard/soft) is problematic, I guess we should take a look at women who > write "hard" science fiction. David mentioned Melissa Scott as a hard > science fiction writer. I would suggest Pat Cadigan for the same > reason-both women are part of the cyberpunk/post-cyberpunk genre. As > science fiction authors neither hesitate to use a level of technology often > associated with hard science fiction, yet as "cyberpunk writers" > (Cadigan's _Synners_ and Scott's _Trouble and Her Friends_) both use that > power in order to critique the technology (& rubrics of sexuality, etc) > itself. Their work often subverts stereotypes unlike writers like William > Gibson or Bruce Sterling (try _Islands in the Net_ as one example). > > Tonya > Yes, Tonya, I think it made complete sense. I would argue that to the extent that the phrase "hard science fiction" means anything today, it's simply a political concept used to describe the work of a group of generally (although not exclusively) conservative or libertarian science fiction writers, most of whom are male, most of whom center their stories on physics and engineering. These writers include, Gregory Benford, Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, Allen Steele (the token liberal), Charles Sheffield, Paul Preuss, Robert Forward, Michael Flynn, and a few others. I'd also argue that the debate over whether or not women can, should, or do write science fiction in which the sciences, hard and soft, are central is really a case of beating a dead horse. Octavia Butler, Pat Cadigan, Nancy Kress, Catherine Asaro, C.J. Cherryh, Lois McMaster Bujold, Joan Slonczewski, Melissa Scott, and Linda Nagata, among others, have all produced and are continuing to produce scientifically-based science fiction which covers the entire range of sciences. Mike Levy From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:06:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA227374; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:16:43 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04337; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:09:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA127202; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:36:36 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 15658 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:36:34 -0500 Received: from skate.ece.ucdavis.edu (skate.ece.ucdavis.edu [128.120.54.55]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA38384 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:35:46 -0500 Received: (from bgray@localhost) by skate.ece.ucdavis.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09086 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704292035.NAA09086@skate.ece.ucdavis.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:35:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: Well, everybody seems to have an opinion on this, thought I'd add my own humble opinion :) Basically, I agree with Farah and Tonya. I think "Hard SF" has the same sexism that surrounds women entering "hard science" domains. I really do think it's that simple (or that complex...). I think that there is a certain amount of status surrounding hard SF, similar to that which surrounds science and engineering. Speaking as a PhD candidate in electrical engineering, I do have a clue about these things. I, personally, have had a love-hate relationship with hard SF. I love the science itself, but often dislike the stories surrounding it, particularly the roles women often play (or fail to play...). This was especially true of classic hard sf that I read growing up. Much as I love the science of my profession, but dislike the traditionally male ways that funding, good-old-boys-networking, and posturing that goes on. To write good hard sf, you have to know about good hard science. (And also be a good writer, of course!) If women are discouraged for whatever reason out of these fields, it seems logical to me that they would not write "hard" sf, either. Maybe I'm just over-simplifying things. Also, I hope I'm not too far off the subject material of this server. I've only been on it a week... Bonnie PS: Linda Nagata's "Bohr Maker" is a piece of "hard sf" written by a female author that hasn't been mentioned yet. I'm not sure if it classifies as "feminist sf", although it certainly has strong female characters in it, both on the "good" and "bad" sides. From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:06:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA133610; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:18:04 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05178; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:16:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA61986; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:47:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 15929 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:47:03 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA103426 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:46:22 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Tue, 29 Apr 97 15:46:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:46:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: science & science fiction To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199704291829.AA25944@halcyon.com> Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: (2) "hard > sf" grossly misrepresents how science works and how practicing > scientists conduct research. Practicing scientists work collectively > and collaboratively. This is a very important point. Most of the conservative, so-called "hard sf" writers seem obsessed with what has been called The Great Man School of History. By this I mean that they almost always show one great scientist or captain of industry leading the way, backed by a bunch of second bananas. This unscientific idiocy is perpetrated in recent supposedly hard sf by Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, Michael Flynn, Robert Forward, and others. Basically it's the same wishfulfillment fantasy idea that was used by the early space opera writers like E.E. Smith, Ray Cummings, John W. Campbell, and George O. Smith. As it was by Heinlein. It's simply an extention of the conservative-libertarian view of the heroic scientist as high IQ, high sperm-count ubermensch. Mike Levy From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:08:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA150960; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:05:37 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16723; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:04:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA58852; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:31:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 19988 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:31:04 -0500 Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26542 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:30:17 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA23127 for FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970429192913_1819458161@emout16.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:29:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: hard sf To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: RO X-Status: It's my opinion that "hard sf" is much more about technology than science. It is, literally, about hard (and preferably shiny, and preferably sterile i.e. not contaminated by anything remotely resembling an organism) things: rockets, pipelines, dyson spheres, orbital stations, computers. Any novel without one of these big dumb objects probably won't be lauded as hard sf by those who read that sort of thing. My novel, SLOW RIVER, isn't often called hard sf--even though it's all about biology and chemistry (can't get much harder than chemistry, really)--because sewage isn't shiny, hard, and metallic. It's icky and, well, too connected with the body. Not all shiny intellect. Too close to the human, the fallible, ungodly etc. etc. The debate about whether or not science is sexist is, in my opinion, a red herring. This is all about the classic mind/body split. Just my two cents. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.america.net/~daves/ng/ From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:10:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA50594; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:25:50 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23313; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:27:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA48002; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:13:04 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 22681 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:13:02 -0500 Received: from kitts.u.arizona.edu (kitts.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.17]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA104462 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:12:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (lorie@localhost) by kitts.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA41930; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:10:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:10:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lorie G Sauble-otto Subject: Re: Science as sexist Comments: To: Laura Sells To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Hi--I thought that my original comment implied just that but I just figured anyone on this list would take that info a priori. lso On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Laura Sells wrote: > Well, there is a whole body of feminist literature out there about sexism > in science. And about how science is intrinsically sexist. And I am sort > of surprised that no one has brought that up yet in this discussion. > > If you study the philosophy and history of science, you will see how the > philosophical beliefs that fund science are sexist. In fact you can trace > this back to Aristotle, even. (A good book on this is Genevieve Lloyd's > _The Man of Reason: Male and Female in Western Philosophy, U Minnesota P, > 1984). F. Bacon's famous line about strapping nature to the rack to probe > her for her essential truths is one example. > > But beyond the sexist attitudes of famous philosophers of science, which > undoubtedly influence the way science has developed, there are other > sexist dimensions to science as well. > > One is the epistemological structure of objectivity. (As radical feminist > Dale Spender points out, Objectivity is just another word for male > subjectivity.) Objectivity is a sexist practice. There are several hundred > publications that make this argument. Probably one of the most well known > authors on this subject is Sandra Harding, but also Donna Haraway, Nancy > Hartsock, Evelyn Fox Keller, Sue Rosser, Ruth Bleier, and many others. > Sandra Harding is very accessible on this subject. > > Then there are the institutional structures of science, things like how > many women are actually scientists, how many women get funded for > research, how many women are encouraged to practice science, yada yada. As > a result, science is sexist not only in philosophy but in practice as > well. What happens as a result is that the "culture" of science is a male > culture, exhibiting male values, and generalizing from masculine > worldviews to the rest of the world. Brian Easlea, who I believe is a > nuclear physicist, talks about the male culture of the science lab. He is > very readable. > > > Now, I know that this discussion is starting to get off the topic, which > is feminist science fiction. But if we take Donna Haraway's starting > point, which is that all science is really only science fiction, maybe we > are not so far afield after all. > > Happy reading, > Laura Sells > University of South Florida > Department of Women's Studies > From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:10:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA151870; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:45:06 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26787; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:45:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA60132; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:33:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 24159 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:33:07 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA60016 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:32:56 -0500 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA26194 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:32:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ala-ca8-55.ix.netcom.com(207.93.141.183) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma026122; Tue Apr 29 22:32:00 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3366C21F.7019@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:53:04 -0700 Reply-To: byerwood@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: K Wood/C Byers Organization: Byerwood Productions Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: farah mendlesohn wrote: The real issue is that scientists (human > beings remember) have often claimed a false objectivity, and it is > this we should be challenging -- the claim to scientific status for > spurious thinking. Such thinking should be challenged whether it is > filling human skulls with sand to test the intelligence of men and > women, blacks and whites, or using the male body to assess the > correct dose of a medication. In science fiction, we should be > prepared to pounce on such sloppy thinking like hawks, not start > muttering that hard science is intrinsicially sexist. Candace -- "Making war is easy. It's making peace that's hard. That's why so few people do it." Xena, Warrior Princess KOFY-TV From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:13:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA159590; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:28:53 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10340; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:28:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA45080; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:03:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 29797 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:03:08 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA84292 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:58:15 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:53:15 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id MAA05326; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:54:05 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:54:01 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: science & science fiction To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:29:32 -0700 L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: > From: L. Timmel Duchamp > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:29:32 -0700 > Subject: science & science fiction > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Anyone who wants to talk about "hard science fiction" needs to > be *explicitly* clear about the following: (1) Science fiction, > including "hard science fiction," is a form of literature, not > science. It never occured to me that this was a problem until > I read an article by a college English instructor in the Spring, > 1997 issue of _Extrapolation_ actually claiming that "hard sf" > is a "branch" of science: a mistake only someone who is completely > ignorant about the practice of science could make; and (2) "hard > sf" grossly misrepresents how science works and how practicing > scientists conduct research. Practicing scientists work collectively > and collaboratively. My partner of 27 years is a research mathematician > whose work has included not only the most abstract forms of differential > geometry, but many applied science projects as well (ranging from > oceanography, geology, mathematical anthropology, to his current > work constructing algorithims for a computer graphics team). > Though mathematics is the least technology-dependent science discipline, > he, like the many dozens of his colleagues I've met, almost *never* > works alone. Two or three times a year we have visitors in our > house, mathematicians who work long-distance with him, who need > intense personal contact, involving hours of talk, of drawing > pictures for one another, of trying out various possibilities, > interspersed with sessions in which each person works by him- > or herself. I washed laboratory dishes & did other lab housekeeping > tasks about 25 years ago in a genetics lab-- there the collective > process was even more evident. Many of my friends have been biologists, > who never work alone, but always in groups. & for the last year > and a half, I've been copy-editing medical research papers. The > ONLY single-author papers come from clinical physicians writing > up a case-study about an interesting clinical observation. All > the real research papers are written by multiple authors. Nothing > could be more obvious but that science is almost never practiced > individually. & yet hard sf represents scientists as individual > heroes with unique intellects. Popular representations of science-- > including the way the Nobel Prizes are packaged & contextualized-- > are largely responsible for this image. But the fact was, Einstein > & all those other scientists at Gottingen were not loners. It's > no accident that they chose to congregate, rather than living > off in garrets sweating out the feats of their genius alone. > Nor was it an accident that the physicists sequestered at Los > Alamos to work on developing the atom bomb. In science, synergy > is the name of the game. > > In real life, the collective aspect of science practice is conducive > to feminist forms of interaction (if only the political & economic > contexts that determine funding & research priorities didn't drive > science in feminist-unfriendly ways). > > In short, "hard sf" projects a narrative ideology congenial to > a certain way of looking at the world. The story it tells is > a simplistic, fake version of how science works. It leaves out > the sociology of knowledge, and the political and economic framing > that real scientists would love to > escape. > > I would note, though, that real world science & hard sf are both > driven by an ethic of the "possible," viz., the desire to do & > to discover or learn what is possible, by the definition of knowledge > as the conquest of the unknown, *regardless of the consequences*. > This ethic proclaims that if something *can* be done, or known, > then it *should* be done, or discovered, simply because it hasn't > been before, & is therefore a challenge to human amour propre. > *This*, not the methods of science per se, is where feminism > confronts science as a problem. & this ethic (besides a certain > boy's club mentality) is what the self-proclaimed "real hard sf" > afficionados refuse to allow feminist depictions of science, however > accurate (& however based on the real-world science experience > > of the writers), to be called "hard." > > Timmi Duchamp A very good summary of the situation. It is *always* a mistake to think of any aspect of behaviour as intrinsic. Thanks Timmi. farah From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:13:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA128728; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:01:08 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11943; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:02:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA39370; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:31:10 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 30109 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:31:08 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA84332 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:25:13 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:56:37 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id MAA05729; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:57:31 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:57:28 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:35:38 -0700 Bonnie Gray wrote: > From: Bonnie Gray > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:35:38 -0700 > Subject: Re: Science as sexist > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Well, everybody seems to have an opinion on this, thought I'd add > my own humble opinion :) > > Basically, I agree with Farah and Tonya. I think "Hard SF" has > the same sexism that surrounds women entering "hard science" domains. > I really do think it's that simple (or that complex...). I think > that there is a certain amount of status surrounding hard SF, similar > to that which surrounds science and engineering. Speaking as a PhD > candidate in electrical engineering, I do have a clue about these > things. > > I, personally, have had a love-hate relationship with hard SF. > I love the science itself, but often dislike the stories surrounding > it, particularly the roles women often play (or fail to play...). > This was especially true of classic hard sf that I read growing up. > Much as I love the science of my profession, but dislike the > traditionally male ways that funding, good-old-boys-networking, and > posturing that goes on. > > To write good hard sf, you have to know about good hard science. > (And also be a good writer, of course!) If women are discouraged > for whatever reason out of these fields, it seems logical to me that > they would not write "hard" sf, either. > > Maybe I'm just over-simplifying things. Also, I hope I'm not > too far off the subject material of this server. I've only been on > it a week... > > Bonnie > > PS: Linda Nagata's "Bohr Maker" is a piece of "hard sf" written by a > female author that hasn't been mentioned yet. I'm not sure if it > classifies as "feminist sf", although it certainly has strong female > characters in it, both on the "good" and "bad" sides. I agree with Bonnie up to a point which ties into an earlier discussion about male v female students in sf classes. As boys are increasingly turning to computer games they seem to be less interested in literature in general and sf in particular. The boys I went to school with were just on this verge -- still reading sf but just as interested in the new space invaders games. I suspect that increasingly boys are moving out of literature altogether, just as women are starting to move into many branches of science, We may see a big shift in who the hard sf writers are in the next ten years. Farah From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:13:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA176384; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:54:13 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11392; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:54:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA40962; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:25:03 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 30064 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:25:02 -0500 Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk (lendal.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.21]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA84348 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:24:39 -0500 Received: from mailer.york.ac.uk by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:58:42 +0100 Received: from kmpc11 by mailer.york.ac.uk via SMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) id MAA06023; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:59:33 +0100 Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:59:30 BST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: farah mendlesohn Subject: Re: science & science fiction To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:46:17 -0500 Michael Marc Levy wrote: > From: Michael Marc Levy > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:46:17 -0500 > Subject: Re: science & science fiction > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: > > > (2) "hard > > sf" grossly misrepresents how science works and how practicing > > scientists conduct research. Practicing scientists work collectively > > and collaboratively. > > This is a very important point. Most of the conservative, so-called "hard > sf" writers seem obsessed with what has been called The Great Man School of > History. By this I mean that they almost always show one great scientist or > captain of industry leading the way, backed by a bunch of second bananas. > > This unscientific idiocy is perpetrated in recent supposedly hard sf by > Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, Michael Flynn, Robert Forward, and others. > Basically it's the same wishfulfillment fantasy idea that was used by the > early space opera writers like E.E. Smith, Ray Cummings, John W. Campbell, > and George O. Smith. As it was by Heinlein. > > It's simply an extention of the conservative-libertarian view of the > heroic scientist as high IQ, high sperm-count ubermensch. > > Mike Levy See Alfred Berger, The Magic That Works, for an account of this conflict in the life and work of John W. Campbell. A superb book. Farah From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:16:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA227820; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:55:44 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28677; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:52:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA132920; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:17:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 33615 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:17:03 -0500 Received: from mail.med.upenn.edu (MAIL.MED.UPENN.EDU [165.123.11.72]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA73230 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:06:57 -0500 Received: (from mcpherso@localhost) by mail.med.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22881 for feministsf@listserv.uic.edu; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:06:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <199704301506.LAA22881@mail.med.upenn.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:06:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anastasia McPherson Subject: Anybody out there? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Status: O X-Status: Hi Ladies (I assume) I was THRILLED to find this mailing list as I am working on a sci-fi novella and I love to read sci-fi as well. What are people reading these days? I am a big fan of the anthology and am waiting for the new Dozois Years Best to come out. I also just finished a new anthology called starlight which had women well represented, however, the quality of the selections was something less than memorable. Even Maureen McHugh's story was an obvious derivative of LeGuin's "Left Hand of Darkness". And here is a meaty question. I have always loved the utopia/dystopia dyad but find myself leaning toward creating dystopic futures by extrapolation and see this tendency in the other literature of the day. How much of this do you think is due to the millenialism abroad n the culture today and how much due to a real weighing of the facts of our near future? Sincerely, Anastasia McPherson From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:17:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA216416; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:47:23 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04478; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:44:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA127664; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:09:05 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 35396 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:09:03 -0500 Received: from queen.torfree.net (root@queen.torfree.net [199.71.188.22]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA84272 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:07:39 -0500 Received: from localhost by queen.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 97 12:08 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:07:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Anybody out there? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199704301506.LAA22881@mail.med.upenn.edu> Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: > Hi Ladies (I assume) NH: No, we are women and men here. I'd even tread cautiously with assuming that anyone's necessarily identifying her (him?)self as a 'lady.' :) > > And here is a meaty question. I have always loved the > utopia/dystopia dyad but find myself leaning toward creating dystopic > futures by extrapolation and see this tendency in the other literature of > the day. How much of this do you think is due to the millenialism abroad > n the culture today and how much due to a real weighing of the facts of > our near future? NH: I wonder how much of that is due to what fiction *is,* which is watching characters deal, successfully or no, with problems or conflicts. I think that's what holds our interest. I don't know or understand much about classic definitions of utopia lit or theories about what it's *for,* but going by a simple definition of what a utopia is supposed to be, it's probably not going to be very interesting to write a story that essentially says, "Well, here we all are, and everyone's happy, and everything works fine. The end." Hmm. Would Kim Stanley Robinson's _Pacific Edge_ qualify as a utopia? What's interesing about that novel is that even in that essentially peaceful setting, people still butt heads, and there's still plenty of room for disappointment, disagreement, anger, loss, difference...the stuff that makes fiction interesting. -nalo "Proud to be flesh." By the way, this is probably an ideal forum to ask for help. I'm a juror for the Tiptree Awards that will be announced in 1998. Didn't out myself sooner because I'm so very junior a writer, and this is an intimidating bunch of people. However, if any of you come across any speculative fiction published in 1997 that "explores or expands our notions of gender and gender roles," I'd be happy if you'd send me a private e-mail about it. From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:18:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA102842; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:02:41 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06020; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:58:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA127524; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:21:18 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 35442 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:21:16 -0500 Received: from elysium.uwa.edu.au (root@elysium.uwa.edu.au [130.95.128.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA103744 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:10:37 -0500 Received: from cyllene.uwa.edu.au (root@cyllene.uwa.edu.au [130.95.128.7]) by elysium.uwa.edu.au (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id AAA23775 for ; Thu, 1 May 1997 00:10:33 +0800 (WST) Received: from [130.95.33.59] (ud59.dialup.uwa.edu.au [130.95.33.59]) by cyllene.uwa.edu.au (8.8.2/8.8.0) with SMTP id AAA01430 for ; Thu, 1 May 1997 00:10:26 +0800 (WST) X-Sender: hmerrick@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:18:40 +0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "H. Merrick" Subject: hard/soft science, technology & cyborgs To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: *** warning and apology : long post ****** a great discussion, with lots of interweaving threads, some of which I would like to try and pull together a bit... I feel the biggest problem with these issues is their complexity (and historical and cultural contingency) and the fact that we have to discuss them in such simplified oppositions as hard/soft, science /culture etc. Firstly the issue of 'hard sf' and 'hard science'; I think Nicola is spot on - the use of 'hard' and hi-tech is a very important factor in the way that hard sf is defined. Thus a lot of novels (including especially feminist sf) which imagines quite radical changes in technology based on 'hard sciences' such as micro-biology and nano-technology (like _Door into Ocean_ and Butler's _xenogenesis_) do not seem to be 'hailed' as hard sf (or 'feel' like hard sf). What exactly do we mean when we talk about hard sf? - from the post so far I think a lot of us would base a definition on early readings of Hienlein and Clarke, but science and technology has developed into unimagined areas since - not least being the turn from outer space to the 'inner space' of genetic engineering and nano-technology. And who gets to police these boundaries and how? As many critics have noted, it isnt just a question of getting science 'right'. I can't help but think here of an article which attributed the 'decline' of the sf field to the corrupting influences of 'soft' sf written by women.... Even if we can claim that hard sf is defined according to the subject or methodology of certain branches of the sciences, we run into problems. I think it is Evelyn Fox Keller who details how a science like biology has gradually developed from being a 'soft' science to a 'hard' science (the apotheosis being of course physics). She argues that it wasnt the subject matter of biology that changed, but its methodology. (must excuse my vagueness here - rather late - I will get the reference and more detail if anyone is interested). On one important level, the distinctions between 'hard and soft' sciences is intrinsically related to that other great divide - the 'two cultures' of science and culture - that is, hard sciences supposedly deal with the 'natural world' while soft sciences deal with the human or cultural world. (Obvious problem here being the separation of human and culture from 'nature') Which leads on to what I think as one of the root problemmatics of this debate; (and indeed, one of the problems haunting perceptions of feminist and constructivist critiques of science - important to remember that, as another post mentioned, it is not only feminists who have attacked the precepts of the 'scientific method' - see critics from Thomas Kuh, to Bruno Latour) ie how it is we actually conceptualise science, technology, culture and nature. Many recent feminist and cultural studies of science and technology take as their starting point the seemingly obvious position that all are inseperable from each other, implicated and imbricated in a web of social, cultural(racial, sexual etc ) relations. This point is worth emphasising precisely because scientific and technological discourses so often appear to be autonomous, independent of 'culture' or society or 'nature'. The sciences do not merely 'observe' and theorise about 'nature' or the 'natural', but are actively involved in constructing what counts as 'nature'; technology is also invoked in establishing the boundaries of 'nature' and the 'natural' - to complicate this, just think of the 'natural' rock that becomes a tool and primitive form of technology when used to build or grind - or at the other extreme of 'genetic technologies' which consist of 'natural' material. It is in this atmosphere of 'leaky borders' and dissolving boundaries that the figure of the cyborg has come to gain such metaphorical weight. The figure of the cyborg and its many theoretical, political, textual and media manifestations suggests some of the fears and hopes surrounding the potential erasure of once secure boundaries which have enormous implications for notions about the body, subjectivity, human/not human ... . There are many kinds of cyborgs, and ways of thinking about them - see the changes in Haraway's ideas since the 1985 manifesto. (must finish up and desperately trying to find a hook to bring the thread back to feminist sf) - certainly the Gibson/Sterling brand of cyberpunk has not had the last word on cyborgs, computers, or AIs. In light of these issues, can we perhaps turn a fresh eye on the amazing amount of work appearing by feminists dealing with contemporary techno-culture, from Melissa Scott, to Nicola's hi-tech (lo-culture?!) Slow River, Bes Shahar, Sarah Zettel, Lisa Mason, Misha, Laura Mixon, Mary Rosenblum... Should ew call these feminist cyberpunk or cyber-feminist sf, or feminist cyborg fiction... or maybe (my preference) just plain old feminist sf dealing with contemporary concerns, which at the moment happen to be cyborgian relations and information technology? Helen note of expanation and apology: I am writing a doctoral thesis on feminist sf (which is why I have been lurking till now - no time!) - and you guessed it! these issues are what my current chapters are all about so they are foremost in my mind. All things considered, you got away quite lightly! :) Helen Merrick Department of History University of Western Australia email : hmerrick@cyllene.uwa.edu.au Ph : 09 - 272 8461 From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:18:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA134560; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:02:41 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06029; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:58:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA127612; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:35:32 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 36520 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:35:30 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA90084 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:33:32 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA10327; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:35:46 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:35:45 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Anybody out there? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199704301506.LAA22881@mail.med.upenn.edu> Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: > Hi Ladies (I assume) There are many women, er womyn, er females or this list, but universals and assumptions are generally dangerous enough apart, let alone together. :) > I was THRILLED to find this mailing list as I am working on a > sci-fi novella and I love to read sci-fi as well. What are people > reading these days? I am a big fan of the anthology and am waiting for > the new Dozois Years Best to come out. I also just finished a new > anthology called starlight which had women well represented, however, the > quality of the selections was something less than memorable. Even > Maureen McHugh's story was an obvious derivative of LeGuin's "Left Hand > of Darkness". As was I. Thrilled that is. I'm personally am reading the textbooks assigned for class, the books for my book groups (e.g. _Celestis_), and the messages on this mailing list. When I can, I read some sci-fi of my choosing. I tend to look for certain authors. Currently, the authors that I look for include: David Brin, Nicolla Griffith, Mellisa Scott, Neal Stephenson, and Sheri S. Tepper. > And here is a meaty question. I have always loved the > utopia/dystopia dyad but find myself leaning toward creating dystopic > futures by extrapolation and see this tendency in the other literature of > the day. How much of this do you think is due to the millenialism abroad > n the culture today and how much due to a real weighing of the facts of > our near future? Well, first of all, I don't see much millenialism abroad at all. So there have been some cults and such, but there have always been kooks. So there has been some popular millenial fiction, but then our culture seems to sieze on anything and everything. So, given only those two options, I would have to go with a real weighing of the facts. However, perhaps what we are seeing is more of a reaction to the overly-optimistic, techno-philic sci-fi of yesteryear. Perhaps we are seeing a push towards evenness. (there should probably be similar numbers of utopias and dystopias). Perhaps the incredible feats of technology that we have seen in our own lives (computers and all) and the fact that these far-reaching changes haven't really seemed to affect us all that much has worn some of the wonder wore off of technology. Perhaps the near complete failure of so many so-called idealists of certain generations to retain their idealism and principles as they aged has taught us too much about our own lack of fibre. I think that we have become a more cynical people (sigh). Anyway, welcome. -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:18:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22950; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:11:24 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07293; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:09:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA127110; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:45:23 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 36837 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:45:22 -0500 Received: from sums2.reading.ac.uk (sums2.rdg.ac.uk [134.225.44.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA62178 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:43:17 -0500 Received: from suma3.rdg.ac.uk (actually host suma3-e3.rdg.ac.uk) by sums2.rdg.ac.uk with ESMTP; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:42:38 +0100 Received: from localhost by suma3.rdg.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10087; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:42:36 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:42:35 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Anybody out there? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199704301506.LAA22881@mail.med.upenn.edu> Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Anastasia McPherson wrote: > Hi Ladies (I assume) No, you can't assume that! > And here is a meaty question. I have always loved the > utopia/dystopia dyad but find myself leaning toward creating dystopic > futures by extrapolation and see this tendency in the other literature of > the day. How much of this do you think is due to the millenialism abroad > n the culture today and how much due to a real weighing of the facts of > our near future? > If there is "millennialism [UK spelling!] abroad in the culture today", then I think this is to a large extent abroad in _American_ culture -- or, more accurately, _US_ culture. I see very little evidence of it in Europe, and, of course, elsewwhere in the world (the Muslim world, India, China) it is meaningless -- they don't use the same calendar! There must be more people in the USA who see the millennium as being of historic significance, because of a strange misreading of the Bible, than in the rest of the world put together. But why should the millennium, in a strictly Christian sense, tend toewards dystopic thoughts? Many millennialists (I can never remember whether they are the pre-millennialists or the post-millennialists) see the millennium as ushering in a wonderful utopic time. To take another tack, science fiction writers have _usually_ tended to the dystopic, Makes for better fiction, arguably. And (to agree with your suggestion) it is a bit difficult to extrapolate a utopia of any kind from current trends. Do you remember the prologue of David Brin's _Earth_, where he says "This is the best 2050 I can possibly imagine: scary, isn't it?", or words to that effect. Admittedly, Kim Stanley Robinson extrapolated a utopic California of 2075 or so, in _Pacific Edge_: but somehow his dystopic 21st century Orange Counties, in _The Wild Shore_ and _Gold Coast_, seemed that much more plausible... Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor: FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Joint Editor: EARLY MEDIEVAL EUROPE .............................................................................. From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:18:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA219400; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:06:54 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06902; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:05:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA52552; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:55:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 37035 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:55:07 -0500 Received: from ocsystems.com (ocsystems.com [192.246.117.2]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA94756 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:53:22 -0500 Received: from localhost by ocsystems.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28753; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:54:45 -0400 X-Sender: jvl@pebbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:54:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Tiptree award material To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: [message snipped, PS included...] > By the way, this is probably an ideal forum to ask for help. I'm a juror > for the Tiptree Awards that will be announced in 1998. Didn't out myself > sooner because I'm so very junior a writer, and this is an intimidating > bunch of people. However, if any of you come across any speculative > fiction published in 1997 that "explores or expands our notions of gender > and gender roles," I'd be happy if you'd send me a private e-mail about it. Just to clarify, does this include any sort of writing? Is there a Tiptree award for short stories, novels, novellas, etc? Or should we just be looking for novels? (that is the award I know about). In any case, the search is on! :) -- Joel VanLaven From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:19:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA50770; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:47:02 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16306; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:43:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA32140; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:56:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 38356 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:56:05 -0500 Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA76552 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:55:35 -0500 Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.6; 16-jun-94) via sendmail with stdio id for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 97 13:56 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:56:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: Tiptree award material To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: NH: Clarification; short or long speculative fiction is eligible. -nalo On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Joel VanLaven wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > [message snipped, PS included...] > > > By the way, this is probably an ideal forum to ask for help. I'm a juror > > for the Tiptree Awards that will be announced in 1998. Didn't out myself > > sooner because I'm so very junior a writer, and this is an intimidating > > bunch of people. However, if any of you come across any speculative > > fiction published in 1997 that "explores or expands our notions of gender > > and gender roles," I'd be happy if you'd send me a private e-mail about it. > > Just to clarify, does this include any sort of writing? Is there a > Tiptree award for short stories, novels, novellas, etc? Or should we just > be looking for novels? (that is the award I know about). > In any case, the search is on! :) > > -- Joel VanLaven > "Proud to be flesh." From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:20:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA61026; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:26:32 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20252; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:23:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA37026; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:41:09 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 39410 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:41:08 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA76388 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:40:58 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id OAA16417; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:39:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:39:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Hard science To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Dear all- what a vibrant discussion of hard vs "soft" science fiction! My small contribution concerns an early utopia *The New Atlantis* (1625 ish). Francis Bacon, rightly or wrongly, has been adopted as the "father of science." A telling description given that his New Atlantis celebrates the masculine almost to complete exclusion of women. In the area of reproduction women are firmly confined to the margins particluarly in the "feast of the family" a patriarchical ritual whereby the father of a certain number of descendents is publically celebrated for his prowess, while the mother of all these offspring (ie she who has actually done all the work, at considerable risk to her own life) watches from a private room where she is invisible- and is completely forgotten. Here science provides consumanable miricles of various kinds (food that never decays! Wonder drinks!) which largely keep the population passive while a hierachy of priests/scientist censors all information. Apart from the invisble woman at the feast of the family, the only women seen are the silent women appearing on the side of the road, apparently venerating the priestly caste who are respendant in rich clothing and glorious carriages. The "great man" theory of scientists, pointed out by Mike Levy I think, has a history almost as long (or possibly longer) than the history of modern science in England itself. So here, at the beginnings of this "objective" disipline- one of Bacon''s goals was to eliminate biases of every kind- Bacon sorted out the role of women to his own satisfaction. They should be not seen and not heard. I don't think that there is a "pure" science anywhere, somehow independant from ideology and humanity, as someone way back in the discussion suggested. Tanya. From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:21:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA139474; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:47:47 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22762; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:46:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA76696; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:51:01 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 39682 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:50:59 -0500 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (twood@chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA130104 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:50:41 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id OAA17823; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:49:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: hard/soft science, technology & cyborgs To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: Regarding Helen Merrick's extremely interesting post, I was struck by an offhand comment she made about changes in Harraway's position on cyborgs. What might these be? And where can I find them???(probably in her latest book that I really must read). Incidently, I'm impressed by your project- the history of feminist science fiction- and even more impressed that you are doing it in a department of history. A bit different from the Tudors and the causes of the Mexican revolution stuff that I did at university.Things must be hot in Australia! Tanya From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:21:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA254314; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:05:14 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24848; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:05:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA43100; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:01:34 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 39726 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:01:32 -0500 Received: from aux.science.siu.edu (aux.science.siu.edu [131.230.107.1]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA82778 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:50:47 -0500 Received: from BETHMIDD (port52.aixdialin.siu.edu [131.230.253.52]) by aux.science.siu.edu (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1.1 COS 2.0) with SMTP id NAA12352 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:49:30 -0500 X-Sender: bmiddleton@aux.science.siu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199704301850.NAA82778@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:49:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Beth Middleton To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: Hi- I'm a new person, so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm a scientist/university prof (plant ecologist) who really enjoys reading science fiction, particularly "natural" science fiction, e.g., "Earth Abides" by George Stewart and "Ecotopia" by Ernest Callenbach. I'm sure that others in the discussion group share this interest and could pass on other interesting titles. I haven't been very successful in finding very many of these. In the books I have found, often the science is fairly flawed, or they are sexist or racist -- another reason I find this discussion group so intriguing. To spice up my non-majors ecology class at the university, I organize some lectures/discussion around a natural science fiction title. "Biomes" (the vegetation types around the world before we destroyed them all) is a dreadfully boring topic for most students, so I changed it. I began to use the sci-fi book, "Earth Abides", as part of the biomes unit. The book worked out really well from the biomes angle, but it was really tiring apologizing for all of the sexist/racist overtones in the book. >From a science perspective, the ideas in the book did make a great springboard for a discussion of how people change the earth. This is really the entire point of teaching students about biomes in the first place, but it was much more interesting for the students to start with the sci-fi approach and then progress to the sci approach. I eventually wrote a sci-fi thing of my own to use in class to avoid the sexist/racist problem. Does anyone know of other books similar to "Earth Abides", that discuss the way the world would change without so many people? I'd really like to vary the title from year to year. Beth Middleton Dr. Beth Middleton Department of Plant Biology, 411 Life Science II Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, Illinois 62901 618-453-3216 FAX: 618-453-3441 Sabbatical Phone and FAX: 618-457-6760 bmiddleton@plant.siu.edu From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:23:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA53668; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:35:39 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04387; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:35:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA82712; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:48:32 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 43009 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:48:29 -0500 Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (mail.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.51]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23934 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 15:47:58 -0500 Received: from localhost (alklein@localhost) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA27402 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:47:56 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Andrea L. Klein" Subject: Re: Anybody out there? To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Edward James wrote: > To take another tack, science fiction writers have _usually_ tended to the > dystopic, Makes for better fiction, arguably. And (to agree with your > suggestion) it is a bit difficult to extrapolate a utopia of any kind from > current trends. Do you remember the prologue of David Brin's _Earth_, > where he says "This is the best 2050 I can possibly imagine: scary, isn't > it?", or words to that effect. Admittedly, Kim Stanley Robinson > extrapolated a utopic California of 2075 or so, in _Pacific Edge_: but > somehow his dystopic 21st century Orange Counties, in _The Wild Shore_ and > _Gold Coast_, seemed that much more plausible... > Along those same lines, I think Ursula Le Guin said something to the effect of "anything carried to its logical extreme becomes pessimistic" or dystopic.... Thus, the very activity of sf, extrapolation, necessarily tends toward a dystopic future. I don't know if it's just that, or whether we simply find the contours of the shadows, or the "darkside", more interesting, more dimensional--as others have suggested. Or maybe it is "milleniumism" :) as well, at least in the U.S. That's all, take care, Andrea Klein From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:24:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA178866; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:44:48 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09927; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:43:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA39422; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:11:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45407 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:11:14 -0500 Received: from xochi.tezcat.com (root@[204.128.247.12]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA39272 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:10:49 -0500 Received: from neilrest.tezcat.com (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by xochi.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA28358 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:10:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: NeilRest@tezcat.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) References: <3.0.1.32.19970429101927.006bf6dc@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430170724.006ae55c@tezcat.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: First and foremost, I'm startled and delighted at the quality and quantity of, uh, discourse I've prompted. It certainly bodes well for the list. My most frequent reaction to the posts has been that we need to be more precise about which of several overlapping, sometimes fuzzy, meanings we are using. "Science" as a method of inquiry has, IMNSHO, proven itself as a way of approaching certain large, important areas of Truth. "Science" as a human activity, especially a collaborative, communal human activity, is subject to a variety of problems. I assume that members of the list don't need this amplified! To an extent, Heather was referring to this distinction >Neil -- I was not debating that certain laws of physics seem to be >unimpeachably rigid. The original question was about _hard_ science as >sexist. _Hard_ science (among which physics) pretends to fully describe >reality. The problem is that there is a whole bunch of stuff that >constitutes "reality" which is not in the realm of _hard_ science. And is >therefore *devalued*, in terms of describing reality, when contrasted with >hard science. That's all. Note that under the laws of quantum mechanics, >either your fascist, sexist pig or your pagan feminist may or may not >splatter. =) The odds are pretty heavy that they will, however, you're right. And Farah referred to my second definition >Science is also a discourse between competing theories. Timmi Duchamp also emphasized the collaborative nature of "real science". Some of the recent hard sf writers do try to portray this. Benford and Bear come to mind. my apologies to the poster of this for losing your name as I shuffled notes for this global response: >I want the right to take on whatever approaches >feel valuable. I am also wary of any approach which condemns by >association. Hard sf does not have to be sexist. It claims, after all, an >objectivity. That it does not always live up to this is something that >can be worked on, and in fact the genre demands that it be worked >on. A more elaborate distinction needs to be made of the various implications of "hard" and "soft" in the sciences, and of "hard sf". My understanding of the basic meaning of "hard" science is that it deals with "hard" facts, things which may be measured or calculated precisely, in contrast to "soft" facts which intrinsically have less precision. "Hard science fiction" means to me science fiction centering around engineering, where "answers" are very quantifiable, and the "correctness" of solutions can be measured. I don't think I've seen much use of soft-science fiction of soft science-fiction. I agree with Nicola Griffith: >It's my opinion that "hard sf" is much more about technology than science. and disagree with Mike Levy: >I would argue that to the >extent that the phrase "hard science fiction" means anything today, it's >simply a political concept used to describe the work of a group of >generally (although not exclusively) conservative or libertarian science >fiction writers, most of whom are male, most of whom center their stories >on physics and engineering. My understanding of the "hard" is more to do with the sciences than the political stance. Sturgeon's _The Skills of Xanadu_ comes to mind. Neil Rest From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:24:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA130070; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:00:17 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10993; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:00:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA46434; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:33:08 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 45812 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:33:07 -0500 Received: from xochi.tezcat.com (root@[204.128.247.12]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA84574 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:31:29 -0500 Received: from neilrest.tezcat.com (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by xochi.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA29251 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:31:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: NeilRest@tezcat.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430172942.006ae534@tezcat.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:29:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: hard/soft science, technology & cyborgs To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: Status: RO X-Status: >note of expanation and apology: I am writing a doctoral thesis on feminist >sf (which is why I have been lurking till now - no time!) - and you guessed >it! these issues are what my current chapters are all about so they are >foremost in my mind. All things considered, you got away quite lightly! :) > >Helen Merrick >Department of History >University of Western Australia >email : hmerrick@cyllene.uwa.edu.au >Ph : 09 - 272 8461 I've taken the liberty of forwarding your post to a couple of womem sf scholars and feminist fans of my acquaintance. If you get posts out of the blue from Betty Hull, Beverly Friend or Avedon Carol, it's my fault. Neil Rest From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:25:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27590; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:06:34 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA14757; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:03:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA99392; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:45:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47244 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:45:04 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29668 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:44:48 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA13590 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:38:14 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) References: <1.5.4.16.19970428201630.3b7f4116@kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970430184756.37578fb2@academic.truman.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <10657F23EA6@coned.uwinnipeg.ca> Status: O X-Status: At 10:04 4/29/97 CDT, you wrote: >Let's face it, the phrase "hard science" has a pretty macho ring to >it! It's probably no accident that men "dominate" the "hard >sciences," whereas women tend to be attracted to the "softer" >disciplines and social sciences. Just an opinion. > Men "dominate" -- and that's changing. Try _Fair Science_ by Cole, and _Whose Science? Whose Knowledge?_ by Harding. Just two I happen to have handy. Also -- check out the number of women graduating with science degrees today. There's no reason to think this opinion will stick around forever. (Cooking IS a science, ask any chef; it's only considered "not a science" when any woman except Julia Child does it.) Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:26:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA43850; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:24:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15835; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:25:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA84530; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:57:07 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47447 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:57:06 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA88432 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:56:28 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 30 Apr 97 18:56:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:56:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: your mail To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199704301850.NAA82778@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Beth, You might want to look for Judith Moffett's Pennterra. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the science, but it sounds like the kind of book you'd like. You might also want to try Joan Slonczewski's books. She's a well-known bacteriologist at Kenyon College and an excellent sf writer. Mike Levy Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Beth Middleton wrote: > Hi- > > I'm a new person, so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm a > scientist/university prof (plant ecologist) who really enjoys reading > science fiction, particularly "natural" science fiction, e.g., "Earth > Abides" by George Stewart and "Ecotopia" by Ernest Callenbach. I'm sure > that others in the discussion group share this interest and could pass on > other interesting titles. I haven't been very successful in finding very > many of these. In the books I have found, often the science is fairly > flawed, or they are sexist or racist -- another reason I find this > discussion group so intriguing. > > To spice up my non-majors ecology class at the university, I organize some > lectures/discussion around a natural science fiction title. "Biomes" (the > vegetation types around the world before we destroyed them all) is a > dreadfully boring topic for most students, so I changed it. I began to use > the sci-fi book, "Earth Abides", as part of the biomes unit. The book > worked out really well from the biomes angle, but it was really tiring > apologizing for all of the sexist/racist overtones in the book. > > >From a science perspective, the ideas in the book did make a great > springboard for a discussion of how people change the earth. This is really > the entire point of teaching students about biomes in the first place, but > it was much more interesting for the students to start with the sci-fi > approach and then progress to the sci approach. I eventually wrote a sci-fi > thing of my own to use in class to avoid the sexist/racist problem. > > Does anyone know of other books similar to "Earth Abides", that discuss the > way the world would change without so many people? I'd really like to vary > the title from year to year. > > Beth Middleton > Dr. Beth Middleton > Department of Plant Biology, 411 Life Science II > Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, Illinois 62901 > 618-453-3216 FAX: 618-453-3441 > Sabbatical Phone and FAX: 618-457-6760 > bmiddleton@plant.siu.edu > From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:26:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA43842; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:24:51 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15841; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:25:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA84642; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:58:21 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47478 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:58:19 -0500 Received: from truman.edu (noc.truman.edu [150.243.100.20]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA82754 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:57:09 -0500 Received: from MC324.truman.edu (MC324.truman.edu [150.243.1.121]) by truman.edu (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA15799 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:50:36 -0500 X-Sender: mbartter@academic.truman.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) References: <199704291829.AA25944@halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970430190024.3ed743ca@academic.truman.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:58:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Martha Bartter Subject: Re: science & science fiction To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: At 15:46 4/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: > > > (2) "hard >> sf" grossly misrepresents how science works and how practicing >> scientists conduct research. Practicing scientists work collectively >> and collaboratively. > >This is a very important point. Most of the conservative, so-called "hard >sf" writers seem obsessed with what has been called The Great Man School of >History. By this I mean that they almost always show one great scientist or >captain of industry leading the way, backed by a bunch of second bananas. > >This unscientific idiocy is perpetrated in recent supposedly hard sf by >Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, Michael Flynn, Robert Forward, and others. >Basically it's the same wishfulfillment fantasy idea that was used by the >early space opera writers like E.E. Smith, Ray Cummings, John W. Campbell, >and George O. Smith. As it was by Heinlein. > >It's simply an extention of the conservative-libertarian view of the >heroic scientist as high IQ, high sperm-count ubermensch. > >Mike Levy > One really important exception -- Benford's _Timescape_ where the science IS done collaboratively, as well as competitively, and where the life of a junior academic aspirant looks pretty accurately depicted as well. Martha Bartter Truman State University From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:26:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA64728; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:29:15 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15939; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:28:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA130890; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:03:16 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47561 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:03:15 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA82388 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:02:03 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 30 Apr 97 19:01:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:01:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Papers being read at WisCon To: FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu Status: RO X-Status: The following is a list with (abstracts) of the academic-style papers being read at WisCon next month. I thought it would be of interest to many of the people on this list. Mike Levy Friday 5:00-6:30 pm Conf. 3 1. Laurie Marks Telling Stories: On Creativity in the Academy This paper tells stories about how the telling of stories and other creative acts are forbidden and marginalized in institutions of higher education. 2. Philip Kaveny The Reception of Science Fiction In American Public libraries 1977-1987 This paper explores the converging popular and academic reception of science fiction as an emergent body of literature during a carefully specified period 1977-1987. Kaveny argues that a group of marginalized accademics by breaking off from MLA (The Modern Language Association) in 1971,and forming their own professional association known as the the Science Fiction Research Association(SFRA), were able within a hand full of years to gain professional jurisdiction over issues of litertary quality, as it related to public library selection within that genre. The results were problematic for both the vitality of the genre, and its respesentationwithin public library collections through out the United States. Saturday, 9:30-11:00 am 1. Billie Aul Rumaging in the Closet: Women Writers and Their Gay Male Characters This paper looks at slash fan fiction and the academic attention such writing has received. Aul's interest is in whether the fan authors, writing in a non-commercial, women-dominated community, are able to play with the gender roles of their gay characters in ways no available to women authors working in commercial science fiction and fantasy. Aul uses the Bem Sex-Role Inventory as a jumping-off place to explore gender role assignment in a variety of slash stories and in three commercial stories, Marion Zimmer Bradley's _Heritage of Hastur_, Ellen Kushner's _Swordspoint_, and Maureen McHugh's _China Mountain Zhang_. 2. Cynthia Zender Breaking the Gender Confines of the Appropriate In _Toward a Recognition of Androgyny_, Carolyn Heilbrun presented a methodology to determine whether or not a fictional character was an androgynous character. Heilbrun's essay concentrated on "classical" and "mainstream" literature. Yet, there is an explicit assumption in the SF/F field, (the Tiptree Award) that the SF/F genre is where androgynous works _do_ appear. This paper uses Heilbrun's methodology to examine several novels ( _The Shadow Man_ by Melissa Scott, _Godmother Night_ by Rachel Pollack, _The Forbidden Tower_ by Marion Zimmer Bradley, and _Left Hand of Darkness_ by Ursula LeGuin) in the SF/F genre to determine whether Heilbrun's methodology is relevant to the genre and whether the genre is, in fact, producing androgynous fiction according to Heilbrun's (and by extension, "mainstream") standards. Saturday, 5:00-6:30 pm Conf. 3 1. Sandra Lindow Inner Space in Ursula K. Le Guin's _Catwings_: A Study of Trauma and Recovery Ursula K. Le Guin's Catwings series has been criticized as being too frightening for its intended audience. Indeed, the winged kittens experience parental abandonment and severe emotional trauma. _Wonderful Alexander and the Catwings_, the third volume in the series, includes a particularly poignant description of post/traumatic stress disorder in early childhood. This paper will examine Le Guin's text based on the latest findings and scholarly research on childhood trauma. 2. Michael Levy Ophelia Triumphant: The Depiction of Adolescent Girls in Two Recent SF Novels The recent success of Mary Pipher's book _Reviving Ophelia_ has brought considerable attention to the particular problems faced by adolescent girls in contemporary American society. In this paper I propose to apply Pipher's theories to two recent science -iction novels, Octavia Butler's _Parable of the Sower_ (1993) and Jack Womack's _Random Acts of Senseless Violence_ (1993), both of which involve adolescent girls growing up in a decaying, enormously violent, near-future America. I'm also interested in examining these novels within the context of the bildungsroman tradition, both in it standard articulation and in various more recent feminist re-visioning. Sunday, 9:30-11:00 Conf. 1 1. Janice M. Bogstad Can Men write Feminist Utopias? In the last handful of years, a number of male authors have written novels in the utopian tradition which feature either female-dominated societies or female protagonists who are central to the society constructed. Focusing onThe Diamond Age by Neil Stephenson, The Remote Country of Women by Bai Hua, China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh, Glory Age by David Brin, Against a Dark Background and Complicity by Iain Banks and The Shore of Women by Pamela Sargent, this paper compares the feminist utopian novels by male writers to those of female writers. Style, social scope and comparison of characterization of women and men in relation will be the primary areas of analysis. Monday, 11:00-12:30 pm 1. Lisa Yaszek "Unusual Stories": Production, Reproduction, and Sexual Identity in the Industrial Era This paper attempts to provide a context forthe current controversy surrounding the technological mediation of reproduction by examining the relationship between nineteenth-century medical and industrial practices, focusing on the similar ways in which both fields historically have authorized (masculine) control of the (feminine) laboring subject. Finally, this paper considers the popular response to this situation by briefly examining images of male and female reproductive subjects in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Freud's Oedipal theories of sexual development. 2. Rebecca Holden The High Costs of Cyborg Survival: Octavia Butler's XENOGENESIS Trilogy This paper investigates the range of cyborg positions in Octavia Butler's XENOGENESIS trilogy and the high costs of taking on any cyborg position. While Butler's early cyborg fiction investigates the usefulness of cyborg positions for bringing difference and women of color into feminist sf, her later cyborg fiction further complicates Donna Haraway's cyborg fix for feminism and feminist sf by focusing on the practical problems involved in accepting cyborg positions and making those potent connections with those who are truly different. From ???@??? Thu May 01 14:26:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by tigger.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA44004; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:26:06 -0500 Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15910; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:27:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA95388; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:11:06 -0500 Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 47656 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:11:05 -0500 Received: from mail02.uwec.edu (mail02.uwec.edu [137.28.1.34]) by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA97202 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:09:24 -0500 Received: by mail02.uwec.edu; Wed, 30 Apr 97 19:09:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Science as sexist To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430170724.006ae55c@tezcat.com> Status: RO X-Status: > and disagree with Mike Levy: > >I would argue that to the > >extent that the phrase "hard science fiction" means anything today, it's > >simply a political concept used to describe the work of a group of > >generally (although not exclusively) conservative or libertarian science > >fiction writers, most of whom are male, most of whom center their stories > >on physics and engineering. > My understanding of the "hard" is more to do with the sciences than the > political stance. Sturgeon's _The Skills of Xanadu_ comes to mind. If you look at the writers who are generally labelled hard science fiction writers they are almost all politically conservative males and many, in fact, use relatively little real science in their stories. Some have been known to make really silly scientific errors. Larry Niven, for example, once had the sun rising in the west. Female SF writers are almost never labelled as hard sf writers even when their stories are chock full of scientific materials. Check out the chemistry in Nancy Kress's Beggars Ride or the Biochemistry in Slonczewski's books or the Chemistry and Engineering in Griffith's Slow River. By any rational use of the term, these books are much more hard science than most of what Larry Niven and Poul Anderson are doing, but Niven and Anderson are labelled hard sf writers and Kress, Slonczewski, and Griffith aren't. Mike Levy