Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9801D" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:25:55 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Re: Willis' Doomsday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joan Haran wrote: > For the most part, as a Brit, I found the near future parts of _Doomsday_ > interesting, but Willis missed one vital entry in the English/English > American translation. She repeatedly referred to a "muffler" when we in > Britain would say "scarf". This had a really jarring effect on me - and my > partner when he read it - and it kept reminding me that this was an > American writing about England. Not a bad thing, in itself, but I like to > suspend my disbelief (and critical faculties, perhaps) on the first reading > of any story. This one small incongruity made it really hard for me. > > Joan I suspect your "we in Britain" does not include North-eastern working-class dialects, where "muffler" always used to be a scarf worn by men or occasionally children. It may have gone out of fashion now with the erosion of local dialects. Cheers, pet, and divvent fash the'sen SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:32:05 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Apologies for off topics, vote for subset Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" After refraining from commenting the last couple of days, I have been able to think things through and would also like to apologize for "off-topic" postings--I think I was one of the worst, or at least, one of the instigators. My experiences with femininism and with sf fandom, however, have tended to train me to expect that identity politics (discussions of where an individual is from, background, etc.), "theory" and debates over the same, and the literary texts are all bound up in each other. the whole debate over whetyher or not Ripley is "feminist" or not (and I saw an interview with S. Weaver in which she was quoted as saying NOT, but who knows who puts these quotes out) has as much to do with the viewer/reader as it does with the "text" of the movie. But it is true that the list purpose is a more specific focus on literature, and I promise to try to 1) be more accurate in subheadings, and 2) reply more to individuals if something starts up that goes off topic. I would also like to participate in any " spin-off" or subset that might be set up for the "off-topic" stuff (which did tend to fall into identify politics, theoretical discussion, and such like fascinating stuff). And I admit that most of the posts that I have saved/copied off have to do with references to literature I have not read (drool drool drool), and so that function of the list is a valuable one. I wouldn't choose to leave a list that focuses on that. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:34:23 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Book Group plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is an updated description of our book group plan, revised to include your feedback. The first book selection and discussion period will be three months, at which point we can review the structure and make any changes based on how the first round goes. The nomination period is from January 22 through January 30. The voting period will be from January 30 until February 6. Winners will be announced Monday, February 9. Discussion on the first book will begin Monday, March 2. I'll send a separate email today inviting nominations. Feminist Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Discussion Group Objective The book discussion group's objective is to focus discussion on a particular book at a particular time to get as many people participating and enjoying the group as possible. It's not meant to change the nature of the FSF list, just focus the discussion. Book selection Group members nominate any feminist "speculative fiction" book. Nominated books can include novels or short story collections and can be any flavor of SF such as science fiction, fantasy, utopian fiction, alternative history, etc. but should not include critical essays. When you nominate a book, include a description of why you feel the group should select it. The description will be included in the nominated books list on our web site, to help members decide which books to vote for. Books may be recent or "classic", but they must all be available in mass market or trade paperback in order to keep the price within everybody's range. This unfortunately eliminates the out-of-print or very new books, but there's still plenty of great material that qualifies. Please confirm the availability of any title you are interested in nominating by contacting Maryelizabeth at mystgalaxy@ax.com (or amazon.com). Book discussion titles may be purchased anywhere or borrowed from the library -- we recommend supporting your local independent feminist or SF bookseller. For those without such resources, Mysterious Galaxy (http://www.mystgalaxy.com) offers a 15% discount on book discussion titles. Members vote for three books each, and the three books receiving the most votes are read and discussed in alphabetical order by title for the next three months. Nominations are open for one week, and then voting is open for a week. We will follow a plan like this for a three-month period, then adjust the overall program if necessary, say for a six-month period. During the nomination period, you can nominate books by sending email to the group with BDG Nomination in the subject line. A volunteer collects the nominations daily during the nomination period and updates the nomination list on the group's web page, part of the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia web site, currently at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.html but subject to change soon. Voting happens by sending email to a volunteer who tabulates votes and announces winners. The reading schedule will be posted on the group's web page. There will be announcements at the beginning and end of each period in the book selection cycle, and before the beginning of each monthly discussion. Structure New book discussions begin monthly on the first Monday of the month. We'll use this main list but we can move the discussion to a separate list if many people complain about volume. A leader opens each discussion with a brief book synopsis (so those who didn't read it can follow along if they want) and by leading members in identifying the book's themes to give the discussion some structure. Book group discussion messages should include the string "BDG" (for Book Discussion Group) in the subject. It would also be helpful to include the title or initials of the title in the subject, so that particularly enthusiastic discussions can spill over into the next month. Spoiler disclaimers are not necessary once discussion has begun. Members are encouraged to follow the general list rules such as quoting only the necessary parts of original messages in responses to reduce excess bandwidth. Discussion can be literary and theoretical or more concrete discussions about plot or character development. There's enough of a mix of people on the list that we can each participate in the aspects that interest us and ignore those aspects that don't. Remember, the group's purpose is to encourage rather than discourage discussion. Members are encouraged to suggest a bibliography of essays or other works pertaining to the book currently under discussion or the following month's book. If possible this bibliography would also be maintained on the web page. Current Book Group Volunteers: - Collect nominations and update the list on the web site: Geoffrey D. Sperl (gamgee@geocities.com) - Collect votes, tabulate and announce the winners: Barbara Benesch (BJBenesch@aol.com) - Maintain the reading schedule on the web site, including bibliograpy of related reading materials: Geoffrey D. Sperl (gamgee@geocities.com) with help from Kathleen M. Friello (Kmfriello@aol.com) - Lead a discussion by posting a book summary and opening discussion ^Ö please volunteer after books are selected. - Providing a 15% discount for selected books: Maryelizabeth Hart (mystgalaxy@ax.com), please see her web site at http://www.mystgalaxy.com - Maintaining discussion group process, announcing group events, coordinating volunteers (group coordinator): Jennifer Krauel (jkrauel@actioneer.com) More Great Ideas (not currently included) Tracking book nominators, letting them lead discussion Ensuring an even mix of types of FSF lit (warning: definition war zone) Having >1 book per month, possibly of varying types Picking an author of the month and discussing all or any of her/his works ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:51:14 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Sex and morality (Was: _Gibbon's_ vial, sex, Carol Severence) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Oh. I think I get it: sex shouldn't be just "sex", but there should be, >> de rigeur, some strong emotional attachment of which sex is an expression? >> If that's something of what you mean, I agree. >Interesting. This seems to work into our monogamous soulmate love-concept >quite nicely. Not to say that I disagree or rather feel differently. >However, I am a product of my society and see that there are other ways of >being. I generally mistrust one-dimensionality. Someone might, say "eat" for quite a variety of reasons, from being really hungry to munching ships in front of the TV to a state dinner to a treat of a special chocolate. To require one, unalloyed motivation for a very basic activity makes me dubious. >Among negative definitions, in science fiction and reality we have: a) sex >as a way of opression of females by males (some feminist sf); b) sex as a >way males show females their "true calling" and a way to a "happier life" >(some anti-feminist sf); c) sex as a way evil females distract and >destroy good guys (very old anti-feminist sf, some newest feminist sf >with roles reversed); d)sex (homosexual) as a way of personal liberation >from the rules of society (some of sf depicting homosexuality as a >political statement); e) sex as a means of self-destruction and getting >to Hell(some religious doctrines, including Heaven's Gate, whose members >were encouraged to get castrated); f) sex as part of a package with violence >and drugs, which is "not cool", but at the same time heavily glamorized >(MTV version, which I'm afraid represents the most common post-AIDS era >attitude), "a glorious way to Hell", so to speak. And that's just one sub-sub-lisst. Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:32:18 -0000 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Willis' Doomsday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: schant > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: Willis' Doomsday > Date: 22 January 1998 20:25 > > I suspect your "we in Britain" does not include North-eastern > working-class dialects, where "muffler" always used to be a scarf worn > by men or occasionally children. It may have gone out of fashion now > with the erosion of local dialects. > Cheers, pet, and divvent fash the'sen > SC No, SC, you're quite right - I haven't come across it myself when I lived in the West of Scotland, in the North West of England or now in the South East. I - completely unreasonably - overgeneralised to the whole of the British Isles. I should know better. Grovel, grovel. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:26:14 -0000 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Fw: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF - was Willis' Doomsday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Joan Haran > To: Allen Briggs > Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF - was Willis' Doomsday > Date: 22 January 1998 08:02 > > Allen Briggs said: > > > > For the most part, as a Brit, I found the near future parts of > _Doomsday_ > > > interesting, but Willis missed one vital entry in the English/English > > > American translation. She repeatedly referred to a "muffler" when we > in > > > Britain would say "scarf". > > > > This American, and all the people I know would use the term "scarf", > > too. I thought "muffler" was a British. I guess not. ;-) > > > > -allen > > I stand corrected - but now I'm wondering where I got the mistaken notion > it was an Americanism. Does this mean it was incongruous for you too? Or > are you simply responding to my confustion? > > But, in case I am guilty of straying off-topic, I wonder how slang or > invented languages have affected other listmembers' reading experiences. I > am thinking in particular of Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_ where she > used the pronoun "Per" in the 21st century sections to replace He/She or > His/Hers etc. Also Piercy's _He She and It/Body of Glass_ (US/UK titles) > where she develops a slang for the Glop. Did these strategies engage you > positively? Did they grate on you? Or did you stop noticing them as the > plot developed? > > I would like to know how other readers responded to the texts mentioned, > and also if they can suggest other novels where similar strategies are > used, successfully or not. > > Thanks. > > Joan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:42:36 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DONNANEELY Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Gibson's Decline & Fall; book-club; off-topics; sug Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-19 14:38:34 EST, Erica writes: << Finally: I go to a book club at my library and I'd like to introduce them to Sci-Fi. Some of them have read a little SF but many of them seem to think it's all like "Star Trek". We are mostly women, mostly older, and generally read fiction. Does anyone have a suggestion about what would be a good book to start with? Thanks mucho! >> if i am not too late..... i must have given away a dozen copies of Vonda's (McIntrye) Dreamsnake as a "break them in" book to read. People always loved it and would say..."well maybe i will give this stuff a try". hat tip to you vonda. dbs dbs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:42:32 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DONNANEELY Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: arrgghh -- ok, topicality Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-19 13:36:24 EST, NG writes: << fsffu-lit sounds like a great idea. Nicola >> Brilliant. Ditto. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:05:31 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DONNANEELY Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: sex and morality Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-20 13:04:11 EST, Maryelizabeth writes: << .... I am evidently not being clear here. My point is, if two people want to have a good riproaring all out f*ck, why does there have to be emotional involvement for it to be valid, in some people's eyes? >> Can we hear an Amen from the congregation.... Amen! dbs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:07:10 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG nomination period open MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message is to announce that the book nomination period for the Feminist Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Discussion Group is now open. You are invited to nominate books to be part of our discussion during the upcoming three months. The nomination period is from January 22 through January 30. The voting period will be from January 30 until February 6. Winners will be announced Monday, February 9. Discussion on the first book will begin Monday, March 2. You may nominate any book that meets these criteria: 1. Any feminist "speculative fiction" book is eligible, including novels or short story collections. Books can be any flavor of SF such as science fiction, fantasy, utopian fiction, alternative history, etc. but should not include critical essays. 2. Books may be recent or "classic", but they must all be available in mass market or trade paperback in order to keep the price within everybody's range. This unfortunately eliminates the out-of-print or very new books, but there's still plenty of great material that qualifies. Please confirm the availability of any title you are interested in nominating by contacting Maryelizabeth at mystgalaxy@ax.com (or amazon.com). Book discussion titles may be purchased anywhere or borrowed from the library -- we recommend supporting your local independent feminist or SF bookseller. For those without such resources, Mysterious Galaxy offers a 15% discount on book discussion titles. When you nominate a book, include a description of why you feel the group should select it. The description will be included in the nominated books list on our web site, to help members decide which books to vote for. You can nominate books by sending email to the group with BDG Nomination in the subject line. A volunteer will collect the nominations daily during the nomination period and update the nomination list on the group's web page, part of the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia web site, currently at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.html but subject to change soon. (NOTE: stay tuned for the actual book discussion group web page URL!) Jennifer (book discussion group coordinator) jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:10:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Gibson's Decline & Fall; book-club; off-topics; sug In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, DONNANEELY wrote: > > << Finally: I go to a book club at my library and I'd like to introduce them > to Sci-Fi. Some of them have read a little SF but many of them seem to > think it's all like "Star Trek". We are mostly women, mostly older, and > generally read fiction. Does anyone have a suggestion about what would be a > good book to start with? Thanks mucho! > >> Diane Duane's MY ENEMY, MY ALLY if it's still in print. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:11:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Sex and morality (Was: _Gibbon's_ vial, sex, Carol , Severence) And I thought the castration was only because they were using a Unix server! On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:38:06 -0500 Rudy Leon writes: >It would seem that Marina said, 10:43 PM 1/19/98 -0600 > > e) sex as a means of self-destruction and getting >>to Hell(some religious doctrines, including Heaven's Gate, whose >members >>were encouraged to get castrated); > >actually, it appears that the members of Heaven's Gate decided to get >castrated, >and actually fought with Applewhite to be able to do so. The first >two >were castrated without permission, and Applewhite was the third or >seventh >to be castrated--I can't remember and I really don't want to dig out >that >file right now. As someone who studies New Religions and the way the >media >represents them, I get a little prickly about misinformation. .... > > > >Rudy Leon >Syracuse University >releon@syr.edu >(315) 425-8171 > > ~~ A conversation is a rare phenomenon... It is not a ~~ > ~~ confrontation. It is not a debate. It is not an exam. >~~ > ~~ It is questioning itself. It is a willingness to follow the >~~ > ~~ question wherever it may go. > ~~ > > --David Tracy > _Plurality and Ambiguity_ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:02:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sean Johnston Subject: Re: Gibson's Decline & Fall; book-club; off-topics; sug In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >if i am not too late..... i must have given away a dozen copies of Vonda's >(McIntrye) >Dreamsnake as a "break them in" book to read. People always loved it and would >say..."well maybe i will give this stuff a try". > >hat tip to you vonda. > >dbs > >dbs I usually recommend _Dune_. -Sean "All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted. --Missionaria Protectiva Text QIV (decto)" -Frank Herbert's "Chapterhouse: Dune" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:02:10 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Gibson's Decline & Fall; book-club; off-topics; sug In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks much. It's actually back in print. (I had some bookplates made for it if anybody would like one; they're free. Info on my web page, see .sig) Vonda On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:42:36 EST, DONNANEELY wrote: > >if i am not too late..... i must have given away a dozen copies of Vonda's >(McIntrye) >Dreamsnake as a "break them in" book to read. People always loved it and would >say..."well maybe i will give this stuff a try". > >hat tip to you vonda. > >dbs http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:00:59 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF - was Willis' Doomsday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *pounce* One of my favorite, favorite parts of SF (fem or not, english or not; heck, while i'm at it, SF or not) is the way language structures our world-view. Joan Haran writes: > But, in case I am guilty of straying off-topic, I wonder how slang or > invented languages have affected other listmembers' reading experiences. I > am thinking in particular of Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_ where she > used the pronoun "Per" in the 21st century sections to replace He/She or > His/Hers etc. Also Piercy's _He She and It/Body of Glass_ (US/UK titles) > where she develops a slang for the Glop. Did these strategies engage you > positively? Did they grate on you? Or did you stop noticing them as the > plot developed? On the net, and in different critical essays, I'm often seeing "hir" (pronounced 'hear') and "sie" ('seee'); since i only just read Piercy, this epiphenomenon didn't strike with the impact it might have. (_Nearly Roadkill_ used the AOL version, "zie"). _Clockwork Orange_ (erm, i forget) _The Demolished Man_ (Bester) _Dhalgren_ (Delany) _Shadow Man_ (Scott) All use language, or layout, as a deep pointer to radical changes in their worlds. How could they not engage me? Language is so entwined with the world, and the plot, that to not have these linguistic strategies would mean to be reading a different work. The very thing that shocks at first (which I admit is different from grating--inconsistencies grate, typos grate, misused words grate for me) is the author's signal that you have entered another dimension *sound of warpy music*... hmaclean@kent.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:28:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: Sex and morality (Was: _Gibbon's_ vial, sex, Carol , Severence) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frances Green wrote: > And I thought the castration was only because they were using a Unix > server! And I thought the "Bill Gates in Hell" joke was bad... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:30:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: Gibson's Decline & Fall; book-club; off-topics; sug MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sean Johnston wrote: > >if i am not too late..... i must have given away a dozen copies of Vonda's > >(McIntrye) > >Dreamsnake as a "break them in" book to read. People always loved it and would > >say..."well maybe i will give this stuff a try". > > > I usually recommend _Dune_. > I tend to recommend THE SANDMAN: PRELUDES AND NOCTURNES or, my fav (we've had this discussion, all) - THE HOBBIT. - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:51:12 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Suggestion for easing email volume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently sent to the entire list a message that was intended for a single recipient, which was completely off topic, and which I felt like A Dolt as soon as I hit the send button. My apologies also. The volume of email is too high for me also, but I do like to read the periphereal comments. I find that they add to the literature discussion. I find the media conversation interesting, but I can't subscribe to another list. I'm on too many already. I thought of the digest, which I may do, but that gets cumbersome. There is a partial solution that was recently suggested in another list I'm on. How important is it to people to have a separate message for each comment? What about putting all the responses into one, with headers before each to indicate what they are responding to? Or perhaps just responses about media could go into one message. The subject line is a bit iffy, but can be picked to reflect as much as possible. If this has already been suggested and I missed it, I will go sit in the corner. :-) I've been deleting fast and furious to cut down the mail queue. BEst regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:45:47 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Fw: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF - was Willis' Doomsday Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-22 15:42:12 EST, Joan Haran wrote: Re: Often Knitted Neckwear Designed to Warm - I always hear it said as "scarf" although I think "muffler" was pretty common in America say.... as late/early (I'm never sure which to use, sorry) as the first-half of this century???? I wouldn't want anyone to quote me on that, but that's what I thought. > > But, in case I am guilty of straying off-topic, I wonder how slang or > > invented languages have affected other listmembers' reading experiences. I > > am thinking in particular of Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_ where she > > used the pronoun "Per" in the 21st century sections to replace He/She or > > His/Hers etc. Also Piercy's _He She and It/Body of Glass_ (US/UK titles) > > where she develops a slang for the Glop. Did these strategies engage you > > positively? Did they grate on you? Or did you stop noticing them as the > > plot developed? > > > > I would like to know how other readers responded to the texts mentioned, > > and also if they can suggest other novels where similar strategies are > > used, successfully or not. I'm afraid I can't contribute anything on the books mentioned as I have yet to read them (I'm so ashamed!!!!), but I did write a paper in college exploring an aspect of this. We had to read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess (which I hated) and then we had to write a critical paper on it. So in order to make it a palatable project for me, I decided to discuss the use of a completely original slang in Clockwork Orange with the use of the completely original slang in "Neuromancer" by William GIbson. For me, the slang in Neuromancer was far less jarring than the slang in Clockwork Orange, because a lot of the Neuromancer slang is based on computer and medical terminology, which I'm familiar with, whereas Burgess based a lot of his slang on German or Swedish. I'm sorry, I really hated researching that part of the paper, so I don't remember exactly which language he used, but I do know that I'm not familiar with either of them. So my thought is that a person's reaction to created vocabularies in a story have a lot to do with their familiarity with the "originating" vocabulary. And for the record, I thought the slang in Neuromancer, at least, helped make the setting more real to me. For me, I find it jarring when extremely futuristic (like, more than 200 years in the future) stories end up using "current" slang. Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:23:38 GMT+1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Katherine Dall Organization: ELM Macquarie University Subject: Re: Indigenous characters On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Neil wrote: > I'm afraid they're packed away, but there's an Australian writer who's done > at least three novels about an {what's the Australian equvalent of > "Anglo"?} who has rare permission from the Aborigines to cross their land, > which in the background of the stories has returned to almost all the > continent. > > Wonderfully alien, grows on you slowly. If you remember the author or titles, I'd really appreciate the reference. One of the greatest blows to my national pride is my complete inability to find any decent Australian SF. If this series is as good as it sounds, I'll be able to stop culturally cringeing. btw, the Australian equivalent of "anglo" is "anglo", or alternatively, "anglo-celtic" - which reflects the large percentage of Irish and Scots among British immigrants to Australia. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:43:10 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF In-Reply-To: <199801222039.OAA43146@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 22/01/98 20:26:14 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed Joan Haran , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > But, in case I am guilty of straying off-topic, I wonder how slang or > invented languages have affected other listmembers' reading experiences. > I am thinking in particular of Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_ where > she used the pronoun "Per" in the 21st century sections to replace He/She or > His/Hers etc. Also Piercy's _He She and It/Body of Glass_ (US/UK titles) > where she develops a slang for the Glop. Did these strategies engage you > positively? Did they grate on you? Or did you stop noticing them as the > plot developed? > > I would like to know how other readers responded to the texts mentioned, > and also if they can suggest other novels where similar strategies are > used, successfully or not. I think I read Woman on the Edge of Time when it first came out in paperback. (10 years ago? I can't remember exactly.) I found Piercy's use of "per" to be mildly jarring at first, but since it was logical and essential I made the effort and quickly got used to it. I only tend to get annoyed at unnecessary use of invented words. If all the characters in an author's world speak a common language which the author has translated into English for us, why not translate "meeps" or whatever into miles or kilometres. Fortunately, I have read very few books worth the effort which use invented language gratuitously. I have racked my brain for ages (it is so stretched now that I'm having trouble fitting it back in my head,) but I can't think of any specific examples Heather didn't mention apart >from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. (I think. I haven't read it since I was about 13, which makes it looong overdue for a re-read.) Heather - It was - Oh bugger! I've just forgotten it myself. I had it a minute ago, honest. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel With Linux, there's no Bill to pay. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:52:08 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG nomination In-Reply-To: <7FC73BF28AF@iers1.ier.uni-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The novels I'd like to read (a repetition). I looked the books up in Amazon.com, the list prices are taken from there. I have added the descriptions from several homepages, which motivated me to buy these books: - Theodore Roszak: The Memoirs of Elisabeth Frankenstein. Bantam, 1996 US-$ 5.99 I loved Shelley's Frankenstein and was intrigued when I saw this book on the list of Tiptree Award winners. "According to Theodore Roszak, the true tale of Frankenstein must be told in three parts: that of the man, that of the monster and that of Elizabeth Frankenstein, the third participant in the "unholy trinity" of the story. Elizabeth was patterned after the author herself, Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, who Roszak calls the Western world's first feminist. Dutifully, Roszak sets down the tale of Mary cum Elizabeth in a darkly erotic and mysterious retelling of the classic 1818 novel that pays homage to both women. The book earned Roszak the 1996 James Tiptree Jr. Award as well as this praise from Publisher's Weekly: "Roszak...risks much and achieves all." " (description taken from Amazon.com) "A powerful book about, among other things, the sexual politics of science, and the relationship between gender and knowledge-how gender may affect ways of knowing, ways of approaching and doing science, and affect our world views. It posits that the domination of "male" ways of knowing and doing science, lacking an understanding of, and sympathy for, the Earth and Nature itself, have resulted in a world being ravaged and destroyed in the name of progress and science. And it does all this in the context of a variation on the book many believe marks the beginning of modern science fiction. You may not agree with everything in this book, but you will think about it for days and weeks after reading it." (taken from the Tiptree Award homepage) -Nancy Springer: Larque on the Wing. Avon, 1995, US-$ 4.99 Won the Tiptree Award in 1995. "When is a middle-aged woman not a middle-aged woman? When she's a ten-year-old girl and a young gay man. In Nancy Springer's Larque on the Wing, the main character unintentionally releases her grim and grubby child self as part of a mid-life crisis. Her young doppelganger leads her to a place called Popular Street, which is both gay ghetto and enchanted land. There she is transformed from frumpy Larque to handsome Lark, who was, it seems, always there inside. Lark can have the adventures Larque has denied herself: can explore the dangerous night world, wear cowboy boots, beat up homophobic thugs, act on erotic impulses (gay because Larque is attracted to men). As engaging as Larque (and her husband Hoot) may be, what sticks in the mind from the novel is Popular Street. Cheerfully sleazy and genuinely magical, Popular Street manifests unpredictably wherever the forces of order aren't paying attention. It is a place of desires and of truths, both of a sort that conventional society covers over. On Popular Street, features of homosexual subcultures-the lure of the forbidden and the secret, irreverence toward middle-class values, acknowledgment of the varieties of pleasure, a sense that gender identity is something that can be put together and tried on like a costume-become the basis for a powerful and transforming enchantment. What fantasy does best is to take the insides of things and express them as outsides. An ent is the inside of a tree, a beast is the inside of a prince (and vice versa). Nancy Springer has used this property of fantasy to get inside gender and sexuality. She shows that the inside of intolerance is fear, the inside of art is truth-telling, and the inside of a woman is a whole cast of characters of all ages and genders." (taken from the Tiptree Award homepage) - Mary Doria Russell: The Sparrow. Fawcett Books, 1997, $ 12 Won the Tiptree Award in 1996. "This strange, ambitious science fiction novel has already won enough attention for its first-time author to make it a selection by both the Book of the Month and QPB clubs. Father Emilio Sandoz, a Jesuit linguist, heads a team of scientists and explorers on an expedition to the planet Rakhat, where contact has been established with two apparently primitive races, the Runa and the Jana'ata. The narrative shifts back and forth between 2016, when contact is first made, and 2060, to a Vatican inquest interrogating the maimed and broken Sandoz. A paleoanthropologist, Russell makes the descriptions of the inhabitants of Rakhat both convincing and unsettling." (description taken from Amazon.com) "This novel haunted me for months; I kept thinking about it and mulling it over, and the more I did, the more I found to think about. The story centers on the spiritual crisis of Emilio Sandoz, a Jesuit priest who has had his view of God (and, not incidentally, his masculinity and his sexuality) challenged by his experiences on the planet Rakhat. The story of this crisis is counterbalanced by the stories of other priests, each with his own accommodation to sexuality and celibacy. On a different level, in her portrayal of the inhabitants of Rakhat, Russell makes fascinating connections among the binary oppositions of male/female, person/animal, ruling class/laboring class, pushing these connections in new directions. To say more about this would be to give away spoilers-and this book is so suspenseful that it wouldn't be fair to do that. Suffice it to say that The Sparrow is rich and complex and provides a lot of food for thought about power, gender, sexuality, and the connection between body and spirit. [JML] The Sparrow is one of most haunting evocations of first contact I have read in recent years-on this occasion the contact is between a Jesuit-led team of scientists and some of the inhabitants of the planet Rakhat. How does the novel explore and expand gender? Central to The Sparrow is the examination of the importance of sexuality to gender identity, specifically masculinity. Can you be celibate and still be a man? At the same time the understandings of human masculinity and femininity that dominate the thinking of the Jesuit landing party make little sense in the face of the entirely different gender models of the two alien races. I read this not unduly small book in one sitting. I could not put the book down even though this Australian judge was somewhat put out by an entirely unconvincing (though mercifully brief) attempt at characterizing a 'typical' Aussie bloke (pp. 122-123). [JL]" (taken from the Tiptree Award homepage) - Dorothy Bryant: The Kin of Ata are Waiting for You. first published 1983, Random, 1997, $ 10 Well, this book was so often mentioned on the feminist sf list I am really interested in it by now. It is a feminist sf classic. "It's hard to describe _The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You_. But here goes: a man (a real jerk) kills a woman, has a car accident, and winds up in "Ata," an island where the people live in an egalitarian fashion and dedicate themselves to discovering the truth, through their dreams. Since black female characters are hard to find in science fiction, I'll go ahead and mention that a black woman, Augustine, has a lead role in this novel. The blurb on the back of my edition (the Moon Books trade paperback edition) says "[The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You] has been called a love story, science fiction, Jungian myth and utopian allegory." That sums it up pretty neatly, I think. I did feel, after reading it, that I had just woken up from a dream. Recommended." Description taken from Laura [Quilter's] homepage. - Leona Gom: The Y Chromosome. Second Story Press, 1993, $ 14.95 This was also often mentioned on the feminist sf list. I have read quite some sf novels by now, in which men and women live in separated societies or are not quantitatively balanced, and I always find these thought experiments intriguing. "The Y Chromosome is an interesting novel about a future Earth society. In the mid-21st century, human males started dying and being born sterile; and this novel takes place several hundred years after that time. It is told from the vantage of two characters: one of a few very rare, hidden, human males, who comes to the city from his farm enclave; and a woman whose female lover becomes involved with the young man. The novel is interesting in that the society created is not a pure separatist utopia. The characters confront outright and question whether violence, abuse of power, etc., are inherently masculine traits, or learned behaviors." Description taken from Laura [Quilter]'s homepage Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:43:22 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Australian SF was Re: Indigenous characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katherine Dall wrote: > reference. One of the greatest blows to my national pride is my > complete inability to find any decent Australian SF. "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" by M.Barnard Eldershaw (Marjorie Barnard and Flora Eldershaw, I think) - from the 1940's. Highly recommended. Cheers SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:47:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: Indigenous characters/Australian SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Have you seen http://www.midnight.com.au/eidolon/home.htm ? its a bibliography of Australian Science Fiction & Fantasy sfs > ---------- > From: Katherine Dall[SMTP:KDALL@PIP.ELM.MQ.EDU.AU] > Reply To: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature > Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 2:23 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Indigenous characters > > On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Neil wrote: > > > > I'm afraid they're packed away, but there's an Australian writer > who's done > > at least three novels about an {what's the Australian equvalent of > > "Anglo"?} who has rare permission from the Aborigines to cross their > land, > > which in the background of the stories has returned to almost all > the > > continent. > > > > Wonderfully alien, grows on you slowly. > > If you remember the author or titles, I'd really appreciate the > reference. One of the greatest blows to my national pride is my > complete inability to find any decent Australian SF. If this series > is as good as it sounds, I'll be able to stop culturally cringeing. > > btw, the Australian equivalent of "anglo" is "anglo", or > alternatively, "anglo-celtic" - which reflects the large percentage > of Irish and Scots among British immigrants to Australia. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:46:22 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: MaryKay Bird-Guilliams Subject: Re: Questions: ie American Indian content, indigeneous peoples In-Reply-To: <199801182335.MAA23109@orcon.mail.win.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sometime in the 70s a couple of books were published, the author's name was Patricia Wrightsman, I think, that specifically involved the folklore and mythology from the aboriginal people of Australia. Don't know if they are available anywhere, but they were wonderful. One title was "When the Ice Comes" or something like that. Anyone else remember these? Mary K. Bird-Guilliams marykbg@wichita.lib.ks.us Reference Librarian Wichita Public Library ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:12:30 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Questions: ie American Indian content, indigeneous peoples -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The author is Patricia Wrightson. Titles include THE NARGUN AND THE STARS, MOON-DARK, and AN OLDER KIND OF MAGIC. Marsha Valance WI Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped >>> MaryKay Bird-Guilliams 01/23 10:46 am >>> Sometime in the 70s a couple of books were published, the author's name was Patricia Wrightsman, I think, that specifically involved the folklore and mythology from the aboriginal people of Australia. Don't know if they are available anywhere, but they were wonderful. One title was "When the Ice Comes" or something like that. Anyone else remember these? Mary K. Bird-Guilliams marykbg@wichita.lib.ks.us Reference Librarian Wichita Public Library ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:32:13 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joslyn Grassby Organization: National Library of Canada Subject: 1. Staying on topic 2. Use of digest mode 3. Australian aboriginals in sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. Staying on topic The is the second message I have addressed to the list--forgive me (get the apology out of the way in the first line, and steam ahead) if it refers to a discussion already somewhat past. As you know from the news, we had rather a bad ice storm and the building where I work was closed for ten days because of power failures. This plus other factors meant no access to e-mail for close to a month. Rudy Leon made a useful query about whether the topics discussed on the list and the messages on them had not perhaps strayed somewhat from feminist science fiction. IMHO, not very far--and the straying has been fascinating. This listserv is by far the most interesting, informative, well-written, intelligent, thoughtful (did I miss anything?) of any I have ever subscribed to. I once spent the better part of a week on a couple of bamboo rafts floating down the River Kwai in eastern Thailand. The others on the rafts included a Thai physical chemist who played classical guitar, a Thai chemical physicist from Berlin, a Canadian mycologist and birdwatcher, an Israeli sociologist, a Dutch gemologist, two American economists, one of whom was a farmer in eastern Thailand, a Canadian librarian, a Canadian journalist and a Canadian financier/investor, a Thai graduate student and others I can't remember. Everyone on the raft was an expert on something and the conversations were extraordinary for their variety, scope and good humour. This list is a lot like that. 2. Use of digest mode I find this very useful for paging rapidly through messages--at least through those portions which are actually earlier messages being quoted. Digest mode also means one (rather long) message per day and all in all makes it feel much easier and more efficient to handle the large number and generous size of the messages generated daily on this List. Those feeling deluged might want to give it a try. 3. Australian aboriginals in sf One work comes to mind: George Turner's "Genetic Soldier". ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:43:01 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erica J Kline Subject: connie willis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I have read 2 other works by Connie Willis, "Impossible Things", which I liked but can't remember what it was about, and "Light Raid", which she co-authored with Cynthia Felice and which was not good enough to finish. Erica ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:42:47 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erica J Kline Subject: thanks & slang & clothes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thanks a bunch for the great suggestions, many of which I had read and enjoyed. You've given me some good ideas! About slang, I agree that it can be very effective at setting the tone of a story and also can be very jarring. Of course, if you think about it, slang changes a lot so "new" slang should be just as necessary for realism as new styles of clothes (a common gimmick in SF movies & TV shows). I recently saw "Back to the Future Part 2" on TV again and their idea of future fashion was 2 ties for the men - yuck. By contrast, the men's suits on Babylon5 are actually quite attractive. Erica ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:33:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BDG nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Helen Collins: Mutagenesis. Mutagenesis is a "lost colony" story. A female Earth scientist comes to a planet of human settlers that had been separated from Earth. The society is patriarchal and she uncovers a plot to genetically alter the nature of the human race, to the detriment of the female sex. This novel focusses on the impact of the patriarchal society on individual women as well as on the quest / mystery plot. (synopsis from L Quilters page) Ammonite by Nicole Griffith Ammonite is one of the few novels I have read in which there are only female characters (Suzy McKee Charnas' Motherlines is another). Not one single male. In this novel the protagonist is sent to a planet by "Corporate," to observe the natives. The basic premise is that a mysterious virus on this planet has killed all the men and made it possible for the women to reproduce without the men. Our hero goes on a quest to discover answers and in the process creates a life in the society and helps to stop a war. As one might expect in a novel peopled only with women, there are quite a number of admirably strong and capable women. This is no lesbian separatist epic from the 70s, however; a world ruled by women is hardly idyllic and women are shown to be fully as capable of evil and insane behavior as men. (Ammonite won the 1994 James Tiptree, Jr., Memorial Award. --lq, 5/26/95. > (synopsis from L Quilters page) > > He, She and It . (Publishd as Body of Glass in the U.K.) by Marge Piercy Near-future "cyberpunk" in which the world is divided into corporate controlled cities and free cities. The hero was originally from a free city, worked in a corporate city, and has returned to her home town. She is of Jewish heritage and the Jewish myth of the golem enriches the novel. Interesting both for the commentary on male and female roles, and for the discussion of commodification of information versus "information wants to be free." (synopsis from L Quilters page) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF - was Willis' Doomsda y MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'm also very intrigued by the use of language - I didn't find the new pronouns in _Woman on the Edge of Time_ but I was confused in Shadow man - I didn't quite understand why there were 5 different sets of words when the society only recognized 2 sexes. ... And back to Connie Willis - I very much enjoyed her novella Bellweather - a love story amidst the forces of chaos. sheryl > Joan Haran writes: > > > But, in case I am guilty of straying off-topic, I wonder how slang > or > > invented languages have affected other listmembers' reading > experiences. > I > > am thinking in particular of Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_ > where > she > > used the pronoun "Per" in the 21st century sections to replace > He/She or > > His/Hers etc. > _Clockwork Orange_ (erm, i forget) > _The Demolished Man_ (Bester) > _Dhalgren_ (Delany) > _Shadow Man_ (Scott) > > All use language, or layout, as a deep pointer to radical changes in > their > worlds. How could they not engage me? Language is so entwined with > the > world, and the plot, that to not have these linguistic strategies > would mean > to be reading a different work. The very thing that shocks at first > (which > I admit is different from grating--inconsistencies grate, typos grate, > misused words grate for me) is the author's signal that you have > entered > another dimension *sound of warpy music*... > > > hmaclean@kent.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:54:56 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: BDG nomination In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII might be difficult to get MUTAGENESIS; not sure if it's still available as a new pbk. On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Stahl, Sheryl wrote: > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:33:31 -0500 > From: Stahl, Sheryl > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG nomination > > Helen Collins: > Mutagenesis. > > Mutagenesis is a "lost colony" story. A female Earth scientist > comes to a planet of human > settlers that had been separated from Earth. The society is > patriarchal and she uncovers a > plot to genetically alter the nature of the human race, to the > detriment of the female sex. This > novel focusses on the impact of the patriarchal society on > individual women as well as on the > quest / mystery plot. (synopsis from L Quilters page) > > > Ammonite by Nicole Griffith > > Ammonite is one of the few novels I have read in which there are only > female characters > (Suzy McKee Charnas' Motherlines is another). Not one single male. > In this novel the > protagonist is sent to a planet by "Corporate," to observe the > natives. The basic premise is > that a mysterious virus on this planet has killed all the men and > made it possible for the > women to reproduce without the men. Our hero goes on a quest to > discover answers and in > the process creates a life in the society and helps to stop a war. > As one might expect in a > novel peopled only with women, there are quite a number of > admirably strong and capable > women. This is no lesbian separatist epic from the 70s, however; a > world ruled by women is > hardly idyllic and women are shown to be fully as capable of evil > and insane behavior as men. > (Ammonite won the 1994 James Tiptree, Jr., Memorial Award. --lq, > 5/26/95. > > (synopsis from L Quilters page) > > > > > He, She and It . (Publishd as Body of Glass in the U.K.) by Marge Piercy > Near-future "cyberpunk" in which > the world is divided into corporate controlled cities and free > cities. The hero was originally > from a free city, worked in a corporate city, and has returned to > her home town. She is of > Jewish heritage and the Jewish myth of the golem enriches the > novel. Interesting both for the > commentary on male and female roles, and for the discussion of > commodification of > information versus "information wants to be free." (synopsis from L > Quilters page) > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman FREE MUMIA ABU-JAMAL Summer 97: Another "eyewitness" recants her testimony against Mumia and cites police coercion as the reason for her perjury. http://www.calyx.com/~refuse/mumia/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:53:04 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catweasel wrote: > > I only tend to get annoyed at unnecessary use of invented words. If all > the characters in an author's world speak a common language which the > author has translated into English for us, why not translate "meeps" or > whatever into miles or kilometres. I agree. One of the best uses of an invented language I've seen is tin THE GOLDEN KEY. The authors (Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, and Kate Elliott) created a language based on Spanish, Italian, and Porteguese. It works beautifully. They scatter made-up words throughout the text, but the meaning is clear. Usually I don't like made-up words, but this worked for me. It adds to the story in giving the world depth and atmosphere. I really enjoyed it, particularly because I find all three languages beautiful anyway and the authors use that beauty to enhance the story. TA lexicon at the end of the book defines the more frequently used words and is fun to read just for itself. The use of language also changes over the three parts, the increased use of active verbs for the female characters reflecting how their roles are becoming more prominent as the culture evolves. It is rather well done. It reflects the emergence of women in both the culture and the artistic spheres of that world. Best regards Catherne http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:54:51 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 23/01/98 06:45:47 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed BJBenesch , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > I'm afraid I can't contribute anything on the books mentioned as I have yet to > read them (I'm so ashamed!!!!), but I did write a paper in college exploring > an aspect of this. We had to read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess > (which I hated) and then we had to write a critical paper on it. So in order > to make it a palatable project for me, I decided to discuss the use of a > completely original slang in Clockwork Orange with the use of the completely > original slang in "Neuromancer" by William GIbson. > > For me, the slang in Neuromancer was far less jarring than the slang in > Clockwork Orange, because a lot of the Neuromancer slang is based on computer > and medical terminology, which I'm familiar with, whereas Burgess based a lot > of his slang on German or Swedish. I'm sorry, I really hated researching that > part of the paper, so I don't remember exactly which language he used, but I > do know that I'm not familiar with either of them. > > So my thought is that a person's reaction to created vocabularies in a story > have a lot to do with their familiarity with the "originating" vocabulary. > > And for the record, I thought the slang in Neuromancer, at least, helped make > the setting more real to me. For me, I find it jarring when extremely > futuristic (like, more than 200 years in the future) stories end up using > "current" slang. I haven't read A Clockwork Orange, but Burgess is not an easy read at the best of times. Worth it, in my opinion, but not easy. Given the nature of ACO and the way Burgess writes I can understand people hating it. Stanley Kubrik's film is anything but pleasant. After watching it I feel soiled, and start thinking that maybe it would cheer me up if I spent some quality time with a nice estate agent or lawyer. A brilliant film, it frightened its audience and made it think. The slang in ACO grates because it is meant to. A nasty language spoken by nasty people. I find Gibson easy to read. His books have a way of jumping off the pages and taking up residence in your mind. My main complaint is about all the missed appointments. And for the record, I thought the setting in Neuromancer helped make the slang more real to me. By which I mean that I do not remember the slang as being fabricated. It felt like I'd been using it all my life. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Solid Jackson. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:24:23 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Trac' Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF In-Reply-To: <199801240854.IAA01256@lions.cableinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I believe that the language used in "A Clockwork Orange" was based on Russian words...? Not the most pleasant of books, but I was rivetted to it when I was 16 (never had the gumption to go to the movie, tho' - oook!) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:54:46 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: Fw: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF - long-ish Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >snipping an interesting discussion between Joan and Allen Briggs on "scarf" >v. "muffler> > >> > But, in case I am guilty of straying off-topic, I wonder how slang or >> > invented languages have affected other listmembers' reading experiences. > Did these strategies engage you positively? Did they grate on you? Or >did >you stop noticing them as the plot developed? >> > >> > I would like to know how other readers responded to the texts mentioned, >> > and also if they can suggest other novels where similar strategies are >> > used, successfully or not. > BJ Benesch replied: >So my thought is that a person's reaction to created vocabularies in a story >have a lot to do with their familiarity with the "originating" vocabulary. > > For me, I find it jarring when extremely >futuristic (like, more than 200 years in the future) stories end up using >"current" slang. I agree that stories which take place in the future should also have 'futuristic" slang, as long as you can (even if it takes a while) figure out what the heck it means! I can't think of the titles, but I've read a few where the slang was just sprung on the reader and never really used in a way that gave you a clue what it meant, which I find annoying. One book I've read recently which uses a lot of "alien" vocabulary, including a relatively-irritant-free neutral gender pronoun, is Mary Gentle's "Golden Witchbreed". The language Gentle developed was consistent, not superfluous, and I didn't find it intrusive. I found the world she created (in great detail) fascinating, and _I_ thought (tho' others may not agree) that the aliens' psychology was believably different. Differences, and their consequences, in the way truly alien life-forms think and behave is a subject I find endlessly interesting. The only thing that jarred me was that you had to look up the plants she mentioned in the glossary if you wanted to even have a clue what they looked like. But that may not bug people who don't like gardening.:-)! As for stuff like scarf vs. muffler, that strikes a sore point with me. I don't mean to be rude or insulting to the original poster at all, as I can see how a word which seems to have been used incorrectly could be irritating and interrupt the flow of reading! But as an American living in (southern) England, I regularly notice, reading in newspapers, hearing on radio and TV, (or people will actually say it to my face!!!), British people making disparaging comments about American usage/grammar/spelling, etc. - even when the book or movie or whatever-it-is in question is American, for goodness sake. Many of these comments are made in ignorance, or narrow-mindedness, so I usually just ignore them, but they are irritating. (to get back to the list subject!) The value judgements people make about language could be a useful characterisation technique in writing world-building fiction, especially in a society with a caste-system, -- but in real life they are one of my hot-buttons! :) Monica ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 07:55:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: New list: octavia-l Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:03:55 -0600 >Reply-To: "Women's Studies List" >Sender: "Women's Studies List" >From: Crystal Kile >Subject: New list: octavia-l >To: WMST-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU > >Hey, if you are in or have friends in New Orleans who might be interested, >but don't read this list, please pass this on. If you're an Octavia Butler >reader and/or scholar from anywhere, we invite you to join the e-mail >list. Note: this list is devoted to discussion & all that good stuff, but >is not primarily an "academic" list, though academic perspectives are, of >course, welcome. > >THE OCTAVIA BUTLER READING GROUP AND OCTAVIA-L >Renowned African American feminist science fiction writer Octavia Butler >will visit Tulane 1-6 November 1998 and the 14th Annual Zale >Writer-in-Residence. In preparation for her visit, the Center has >organized a monthly reading group and an e-mail list (octavia-l) devoted >to discussion of Butler's works. All members of the Tulane and New Orleans >communities are invited to join the reading group (phone 865-5238 for the >time/date of the next scheduled meeting), and readers around the world are >invited to join octavia-l. To subscribe to octavia-l, send the message >"subscribe octavia-l [Your Name]" to listserv@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu > > >Thanks... see some of you in person or on the list. > >CK > > > "take, take the noise in my head... take, take the noise in my head..." > > Crystal Kile ckile@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu > www.tulane.edu/~wc ernie.bgsu.edu/~ckile/ckile.html > > Scott & Aronoff Translation & Editorial Services Montreal, Quebec, Canada mailto:alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:15:54 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: BGD Nominations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to nominate these books, even though two of them may be slightly difficult to buy. Hopefully they should be fairly available in most libraries, as they are/were popular and weren't printed very long ago. I got the reviews and reader comments from amazon.com. In no particular order: 1. "Golden Witchbreed" by Mary Gentle. Easily available at www.bookshop.co.uk Earth envoy Lynne de Lisle Christie is sent to distant Orthe to convince the planet's technophobic leaders to accept trade with the Dominion of Earth. I think Mary Gentle has created a fascinating world in Orthe. The sentient race, Ortheans, do not develop gender until they reach 14 and females have as many significant roles as males in all aspects of life, perhaps more. I liked that Ortheans were descended from non-simian ancestors, the animal species of Orthe seemed connected to the planet's climate and environment, and the author has put a lot of thought into the culture, religion, history and daily life. To me at least, this planet was a truly different place and the aliens were not just slightly-altered humans who thought and acted just as we do. 2. "Xenogenesis 1: Dawn", by Octavia Butler. I just read it and really enjoyed it. I would be very interested in discussing it with others. 3. "Doomsday Book", by Connie Willis. I think people either love this one or hate it. Shortly before we moved, we visited Cambridge and St. Mary's church in Ashwell, which has Plague-period grafitti scratched into its walls. Having just read this book made that the lives of people in that period even more real to me. Winner of the Hugo and Nebula Awards. A favourable Reader comment from amazon.com: Overall, I was extremely impressed by this book. Medieval history has always been one of my favorite subjects, and Willis' exhaustive research has made the sections of her book set in this time period unflinchingly realistic. It was not an age of reason; it was an age when the church was the source of all knowledge and God was the ultimate authority. Reading medieval history, we are led to understand why so much fantasy fiction is set in this period; it was a time when the distinction between physical and spiritual was much more blurred than it is now. Willis has worked hard to create believable medieval people, and for the most part has succeeded, in that I found myself sympathizing with characters whose worldview is fundamentally different from my own. As any science fiction fan knows, creating a believable alien culture -- one that is sympathetic, but still alien -- is an extremely difficult challenge. Creating believable characters from another time and place can scarcely be less of a challenge... 5. "Green Grass, Running Water", Thomas King I loved this book. It's fantasy in the sense that it has some magical characters which affect the plot (Coyote and the ancient Indians), and I found the storytelling structure a refreshing change. It made me LOL more than a few times. I suppose this is a border-line nomination as the plot revolves more around the male protagonist than his very strong-minded girlfriend, but I just can't help myself. Reviews and Commentary: >From Kirkus Reviews , 01/01/93: Following his successful debut novel Medicine River (1990), part-Cherokee author King (Native American Studies/Univ. of Minnesota) returns with a lively, engagingly loopy tale of modern Indians in Canada who are struggling to find their identity while still fighting white oppression. Lionel Red Dog is a disaffected Blackfoot on the eve of his 40th birthday; he sells televisions in a rural part of southern Alberta, but tells himself that one day he'll go back to college to get his Ph.D. like his uncle Eli. Meanwhile, his relationship with his girlfriend Alberta lacks certainty also, since he has to share her with his lawyer cousin Charlie, but she resists the mere mention of marriage, preferring to have a child by artificial insemination than be saddled with any man. Things begin to change on that fateful day, however, when Lionel and his aunt stop to pick up four ancient Indian hitchhikers who take an avid interest in him. ...all paths converge on the reservation in time for Sun Dance... Combining traditional storytelling methods, a multitude of Native voices, and a tireless, subtle wit that culminates in an elaborate joke honoring the Columbus Quincentennial, the result is both comic and disturbingly accurate in its depiction of Indian realities today. Eloquent and outrageous: a richly rewarding saga from a first- rate talent. -- Copyright ©1993, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. Alternate 5. "Memory & Dream", by Charles de Lint A female character breaking free of a Svengali-like mentor, women overcoming abuse, artistic struggle, and confronting/accepting the horrors of your past. I enjoyed it a lot. >From Booklist and other sources on amazon.com: Synopsis: (Memory & Dream) focuses on a young artist whose mentor teaches her to paint creatures that come to life--but who also destroys her work and leaves her life in tatters. Years later, when she wishes to return to painting, she must face the terrible threat of her mentor's return. Artist Isabelle Copley,is brought back suddenly into her own past, jolted by a letter from a long-dead friend. As Isabelle went through her life, she unconciously developed the self-protective habit of rewriting her memory,creating a story of her past that is what she wants it to be rather than what it was. As she is slowly forced to confront the truths of the past and her own part in the events which drove her to her solitude, her past comes back to haunt her in many ways. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:24:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: BGD Nominations - UPDATE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got the first bit o' stuff up - I'll work some more after I get back from a bachelor's party at Chuck E. Cheese tonight (a little unorthodox, yes, but then my girlfriend is the best man, too... :) ) Click an this, ladies and gents: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499/fsffu.html Wanna help? Look up the remainder of the prices, publishers, etc. of the books on the page that I haven't hit yet and e-mail 'em to me. Odds and ends: MJ - I will add on to your original nominations, have no fear. Petra - I'll get yours, too. Any other nominators - I'll get to you soon enough, folks. When making nominations, please list price, publisher, etc. Amazon.com seems to be the best place to check the "in print" status, but it ain't perfect... Clarus the Dogcow says "Moof!" - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:58:29 -0000 Reply-To: joanharan@dial.pipex.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Haran Subject: Re: Fw: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF - was Willis' Doomsday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara Benesch wrote: > And for the record, I thought the slang in Neuromancer, at least, helped make > the setting more real to me. For me, I find it jarring when extremely > futuristic (like, more than 200 years in the future) stories end up using > "current" slang. I think Barbara's point about futuristic stories using "current" slang is very well made. And Heather's posting about language structuring our worldview also resonates with me. I have been rereading the two Piercy novels recently and I think it was something about the execution of language strategies in the two that caused me to ask my original question. In _Woman on the Edge of Time_ I found the changes in language very convincing and expressive of the changes in society between the "present" and the "future" - for example, the use of a non-gendered pronoun when sexual difference was no longer considered as a central issue, the fact that there aren't gendered terms for parents, the concept of "inknowing". And ultimately, I found the changes comfortable and in tune with a favourite fantasy of the future. With _Body of Glass_/_He, She and It_, I found the introduction of the Glop slang more jarring, and the introduction of a glossary within the narrative in Chapter 33 seems clumsy to me. When the main protagonists are in the Free Towns or the Multis, their speech patterns do not seem markedly different from those of people with similar social positions today (and correct me if Marge Piercy's writing has seduced me so successfully that I have missed something glaringly obvious). While it makes sense to me that the inhabitants of the Glop should have a different laguage, it seems strange that it should not have permeated the Free Towns/Multis to more of an extent - the way that slang does seem to travel mysteriously. But I suppose it is the actual vocabulary that Piercy has devised that I find it difficult to get my head (and mouth around). I can't make sense of the way this language has evolved in the way that I felt I could with that in _Woman on the Edge of Time_. Perhaps this is the point. Maybe it should be uncomfortable. I do need my assumptions about language to be disrupted. The above paragraph does not make complete sense, I realise. I think it is because I find the whole issue of language - particularly as it is related to reading - painful and troubling. Ethically and politically I accept that language will and should change as people use it, but as someone who found in "conquering" language both pleasure and a sense of escaping from a position in which I had been placed and did not wish to remain, the idea of language escaping me is very disruptive. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:42:30 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: BGD Nominations In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another book to consider for discussion in the book group is our own Catherine Asaro's The Last Hawk. It's a very enjoyable novel which combines role-reversal, feminism, romance novel conventions, space opera, sex, and nicely developed characters, plus one of the most well-realized and complex fictional games (Quis) that I've ever come across. The book, so far as I know, is still only available in hardcover, which is a drawback, but the group might want to consider it later this year when the paperback appears. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:09:20 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: BJBenesch Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-01-24 04:20:39 EST, Trac' wrote: > I believe that the language used in "A Clockwork Orange" was based on > Russian words...? I knew it was one of those eastern european really-cold-weather languages, but beyond that I had no idea. But thinking about it, Russian does sound about right. > Not the most pleasant of books, but I was rivetted to it when I was 16 > (never had the gumption to go to the movie, tho' - oook!) Yi, no I never had the nerve to go see the movie either. Sometimes I think I ought to, in order to say that I've done it and "expand my horizons" - that kind of thing, but I'm not sure it would be worth the (likely) resulting nightmares. ;) Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:31:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > In a message dated 98-01-24 04:20:39 EST, Trac' wrote: > > > I believe that the language used in "A Clockwork Orange" was based on > > Russian words...? Yep. And the fun part was, when they translated it to Russian, they had to replace all those Russian words by English ones, because, obviously, if they had left them Russian, there would be no slang there altogether, just an all-Russian text. There was a glossary of those words printed after the story itself, where they would explain that "eyes" meant "glaza", and so on. A mirror image of the original story, sort of. Another funny part of that was that whatever was the idea of the main character using Russian words, the opposite technique in the translated version made him sound like one of the illegal foreign currency dealers abound in the Soviet Union at the time. They were the ones who, along with the "hip" part of the youth, used English words as their slang. About the story itself, it got me very upset. I was about 15, and it scared the Hell out of me, to be honest. And I normally like scary stuff, at least, I definitely enjoyed Exorcist. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:54:29 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF In-Reply-To: <199801240854.IAA01256@lions.cableinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Catweasel wrote: > > The slang in ACO grates because it is meant to. A nasty language spoken > by nasty people. Thanks, Catweasel. My theory on why Burgess used Russian in _A Clockwork Orange_ is because this would be the most spooky one. After all, the Cold War is long since over, however people here in US still freak out when you say "KGB". Sometimes, I love to tell people that I am from the former Soviet Union, just to see their reaction. I guess it's the same reason so many African-Americans I met would make you shake their hand when you meet them, and watch the expression on your face. I must say, though, that most of Americans are very well trained in that department. So when they hear "Soviet Union", they would most often simply go silent, stare at you for couple seconds, and go on talking. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:12:29 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Wicked In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980120115557.006b4bd0@mailbox.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:55 AM 1/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >Well, in part to do my part to bring list topics to topicality, I am >wondering >if anybody here has read _Wicked: The Story of the Wicked Witch of the >West_ by Maguire? > >It's a fantastic retelling of the Oz story from the perspective of one >sharply >intelligent green little munchkin girl. It's a political and social >reltelling of >the story, placing the Wizard in the place we all knew he beleonged in and >were somehow able to overlook as children, a tyrannical and fascist usurper >to the throne. I haven't run into it before, but I have been seeing some comments on the political agenda of the original (they were *silver* slippers!). Are you interested/do you care/are you aware of all this? Incidentally, here in Chicago, when the city built a new park at Larrabee and Webster Streets, Oz fans pointed out that it's just a couple of blocks from where the books were written and got it named Oz Park. Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:53:48 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tracy MacShane Subject: Re: BDG nomination period open MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all: Could someone please email me the URL for book discussion group nominations (i've got the address on my PC at HOME - bummer!) Thanks oodles, Trac' ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:54:01 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Indigenous characters Comments: cc: Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lesley_Hall filled me in: >>there's an Australian writer who's done at least three novels about an >{what's >the Australian equvalent of "Anglo"?} who has rare permission from >the >Aborigines to cross their land, which in the background of the stories >has >returned to almost all the continent > >I think this is Terry Dowling: the one I read (?Rynoseros?) seemed almost >magical realist rather than sf Yes! Those are the ones. But between the alienness of the Aboriginal world-view to us and the explitic occasional use of futuristic sf tech, "magical realism" may be a bit off target, too. Thanks for filling in my blanks. Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:36:47 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: BDG nominations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ammonite, Mutagenesis and He, She and It. Jenny Rankine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:04:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG nominations In-Reply-To: <199801270015.NAA008640885860101@mail.iconz.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII HALFWAY HUMAN by Carolyn Gilman. Very recent, paperback, unforgettable.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:51:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: teragram Subject: Re: Wicked witches and silvered slippers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123091229.006c0db0@tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Neil wrote: >I haven't run into it before, but I have been seeing some comments on the >political agenda of the original (they were *silver* slippers!). Are you >interested/do you care/are you aware of all this? As I remember hearing it, the gold brick road represented the gold standard, the Scarecrow was farming, the Tin Man industry, and the Lion perhaps goverment? Beyond that, it's all a blur - I do know that Baum tried to end the series several times, but was always beseiged by children asking for more tales - and it was really the only thing he wrote that made money for the family coffers. My favorite as a child was 'The Enchanted Isle of Yew' - a fairy (female) decides to be a mortal for a year's time - and decides to be a male, since they have get to have adventures and it's really more fun. Loved it. In another book, Ozma (the rightful ruler of OZ) is first introduced as Tip, a young boy, and is only restored to her original gender at the very end of the book. Despite his railings against feminists, the girls in his books were often portrayed as strong and practical characters and wielded a great deal of power - after all, the two most powerful people in OZ were Ozma and Glinda! Pain is very useful. Pain teaches us to take our hand OUT the fucking fire. Audre Lorde ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kathryn Clancy Subject: Re: Slang/"New" Language in FemSF In-Reply-To: <199801240854.IAA01256@lions.cableinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" the language in "a clockwork orange" is based on russian, i believe.:) i actually started the book, then stopped because i was reading so many at the same time (a bad habit i have; i read 5-6 books concurrently. it's a good thing for me because i'll often temporarily lose books, and while they're floating around i can be reading something else). for some reason i haven't gotten back into it. whatever the case, catweasel was right; the language was meant to shock you, jar the senses, hurt your eyes. burgess wrote to show you the horrors of an amoral boy and a messed-up society. i forget why he used russian as his base for slang, though... anyone know the reason? thanks, k8 At 08:54 AM 1/24/98 GMT, you wrote: >It was 23/01/98 06:45:47 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, >I observed BJBenesch , >hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > >> I'm afraid I can't contribute anything on the books mentioned as I have yet to >> read them (I'm so ashamed!!!!), but I did write a paper in college exploring >> an aspect of this. We had to read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess >> (which I hated) and then we had to write a critical paper on it. So in order >> to make it a palatable project for me, I decided to discuss the use of a >> completely original slang in Clockwork Orange with the use of the completely >> original slang in "Neuromancer" by William GIbson. >> >> For me, the slang in Neuromancer was far less jarring than the slang in >> Clockwork Orange, because a lot of the Neuromancer slang is based on computer >> and medical terminology, which I'm familiar with, whereas Burgess based a lot >> of his slang on German or Swedish. I'm sorry, I really hated researching that >> part of the paper, so I don't remember exactly which language he used, but I >> do know that I'm not familiar with either of them. >> >> So my thought is that a person's reaction to created vocabularies in a story >> have a lot to do with their familiarity with the "originating" vocabulary. >> >> And for the record, I thought the slang in Neuromancer, at least, helped make >> the setting more real to me. For me, I find it jarring when extremely >> futuristic (like, more than 200 years in the future) stories end up using >> "current" slang. > >I haven't read A Clockwork Orange, but Burgess is not an easy read at >the best of times. Worth it, in my opinion, but not easy. Given the >nature of ACO and the way Burgess writes I can understand people hating >it. Stanley Kubrik's film is anything but pleasant. After watching it >I feel soiled, and start thinking that maybe it would cheer me up if I >spent some quality time with a nice estate agent or lawyer. A brilliant >film, it frightened its audience and made it think. > >The slang in ACO grates because it is meant to. A nasty language spoken >by nasty people. > >I find Gibson easy to read. His books have a way of jumping off the >pages and taking up residence in your mind. My main complaint is about >all the missed appointments. > >And for the record, I thought the setting in Neuromancer helped make the >slang more real to me. By which I mean that I do not remember the slang >as being fabricated. It felt like I'd been using it all my life. > > >Trust me, I'm a doctor. >Catweasel > >Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's >warm for the rest of his life. - Solid Jackson. > > ------------------------------------------------ Visit K8's webpage at: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~kclancy/ Pleeeease?? It looks all purty now! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:44:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: Wicked witches and silvered slippers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>I haven't run into it before, but I have been seeing some comments on the >>political agenda of the original (they were *silver* slippers!). Are you >>interested/do you care/are you aware of all this? > >As I remember hearing it, the gold brick road represented the gold >standard, the Scarecrow was farming, the Tin Man industry, and the Lion >perhaps goverment? Beyond that, it's all a blur My memories from a guest lecture about 7 years ago. A semi-socialist theme, favoring working people over bankers and industrial giants. The silver slippers and the yellow brick road represented hard currency and the gold standard. The emerald green glasses allowed people to see the falseness of greenback paper currency. The Lion represented William Jennings Bryant, though I forget his role. The Tin Man represented the working man in industry, his lack of a heart was the feeling of loss of personality in the cogs of the industrial complex. The scarecrow is the uneducated farmer, if he finds his brains he'll come into his own again. The Wicked Witches of the West and of the East represented the two US coasts, in contrast to the North and South representing the good heartland (Kansas). The poppy fields are an allusion to the "opiate of the masses." ----- I'm going to be dead for billions and billions of years. If I don't make a fool of myself on a regular basis, I'll feel like I've wasted my life. Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 07:15:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Wicked witches and silvered slippers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, teragram wrote: > > Despite his railings against feminists, the girls in his books were often > portrayed as strong and practical characters and wielded a great deal of > power - after all, the two most powerful people in OZ were Ozma and Glinda! > My daughter's generation is very much that way. "Mother! You don't get ahead by marching and protesting; you get ahead by hard work and enterprise!"> > I told her "You climb the staircase by hard work and enterprise. But if the door at the foot of the stairs is locked, someone has to break it down. That's me and MY generation." I wonder if Frank Baum succeeded a strongly feminist generation? That of the sons of the original suffragists, perhaps?> > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BGD Nominations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I just read her _Primary Inversion_ and very much enjoyed it. Unfortunately, it is the only book by her in our public library system (Cincinnati) Sheryl > ---------- > From: Michael Marc Levy[SMTP:levymm@UWEC.EDU] > Reply To: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 1998 12:42 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BGD Nominations > > Another book to consider for discussion in the book group is our own > Catherine Asaro's The Last Hawk. It's a very enjoyable novel which > combines role-reversal, feminism, romance novel conventions, space > opera, > sex, and nicely developed characters, plus one of the most > well-realized > and complex fictional games (Quis) that I've ever come across. > > The book, so far as I know, is still only available in hardcover, > which > is a drawback, but the group might want to consider it later this year > when the paperback appears. > > Mike Levy > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:51:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Wicked witches and silvered slippers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It would seem that Pat said, 07:15 AM 1/24/98 -0800 The model for The Wicked Witch of the West was Baum's Mother-in-Law, Jocelyn Matilda Gage. She is of the suffragist generation, in fact a key player whose writings were long lost. Her primary book is _Woman, Church, State_. Mary Daly helped a great deal in bringing her back to attention--she quotes extensively from her in at least two of her books. I'm finding this discussion fascinating. Its amazing how much is missed by the young. I wonder if Maguire was aware of this stuff in his more overtly political remake? The muchkinlanders are poor farmers struggling under the vari9ous weights of tyranny of the Wizard, and later the Wicked Witch of the East...Glinda isn't quite so good, though. > > I wonder if Frank Baum succeeded a strongly feminist generation? That >of the sons of the original suffragists, perhaps?> > > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu > > Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 ~~ A conversation is a rare phenomenon... It is not a ~~ ~~ confrontation. It is not a debate. It is not an exam. ~~ ~~ It is questioning itself. It is a willingness to follow the ~~ ~~ question wherever it may go. ~~ --David Tracy _Plurality and Ambiguity_ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:14:23 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: Rachel Pollack's latest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Krauel (that's me!) wrote: > Here's some list-specific material. I got Rachel Pollack's latest book, > _Godmother Moon_ ( I think, the book's at home) out of the library this > weekend and I'm really enjoying it. The lesbian protagonists were a > nice surprise - I had just grabbed the book off the shelf before the > parking meter ran out so I didn't know a thing about it save the > author. Her writing is magical and satisfying. It reminds me of > another book that I can't quite place yet, with characters I could > relate to in a world I could relate to, but somehow they see and > experience magical things that I don't. Maybe Judith Katz' _Running > Fiercely Toward A High Thin Sound_ (I think that's the right author name > and title), has anyone else read that? OK - I finished it this weekend and even though nobody responded to my first post I thought I'd send an update.First, the title is _Godmother Night_, I got it wrong before. The title character is actually Death, in the form of a nice middle-aged woman accompanied by I think five redheaded women on motorcycles. Pollack's given us a world where the dead really are among us, but those of us still alive (the non-dead) just can't see them. They have trouble using telephones but like the radio a lot and even have their own broadcasts. If they want, they can wear "skin" and interact with the non-dead, but that gets boring. The lesbian couple have a daughter who is Mother Night's god-daughter, and the last half of the book is about her, raised with a definite blur between the living and dead worlds. All that aside, I ultimately don't think the book is really about death - it seemed more to me to be about relationships (between the living) and what happens when those people lie to each other. > I had only read her earliest books - _Alqua Dreams_ and _Golden Vanity_ > and wondered what the fuss was about, since neither books were all that > great. After starting this one though I'm glad I kept her name on my > "read anything" list. I'll let you know if I still like it this much by > the end. > I really enjoyed reading this. The writing was fresh and the ideas were interesting and definitely entertaining. And the people and dialog were quite believable. I recommend it. Too bad it's hardback or I'd nominate it for the discussion group. If there's anyone else that has read this please email me - I have a question but it would probably spoil the story so I won't ask it here. > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:13:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: medieval sexual mores maillist In-Reply-To: <34CD7B3F.25F7F46B@actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thought this might be of interest to some in this group, for research purposes or food-for-thought. I haven't signed on yet, so I don't have any comment on its content (or possible lack thereof) ------------------------------ MEDIEVAL GAY Was Edward II gay or was he just "effeminate"? Was wearing lace a sign for a same-sex desire? How were eunuchs regarded in Byzantium? What did those of the Middle Ages think about women who strongly rejected chivalric lifestyle as the dominant ruling ethical code? A relatively new area of academic thought, some outside the university and more within it openly discuss being gay in medieval times. Specifically, you'll discuss with others how homosexuality was perceived, allowed, or hidden in this important time when sexual mores were in transition. Primary and secondary texts are quoted often, as are the modern movie and novel. To subscribe, send an e-mail to listserv@ksu.edu (mailto:listserv@ksu.edu) and type subscribe medgay-l followed by your first and last name in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------- {jenn mottram} {generally poetry} {athena(at)geocities.com} {http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464} ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kathryn Clancy Subject: Re: Wicked witches and silvered slippers In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980127105149.006b886c@mailbox.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" this conversation reminds me of one i had recently with some christian friends. if any of you have read c.s. lewis you know he's an excellent author; the chronicles of narnia are wonderful children's/ young adults' books. however, there is a christian message within the series... it's fascinating to recall now parts of the books that i read when i was younger and realize that there was a message within them.:) k8 At 10:51 AM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >It would seem that Pat said, 07:15 AM 1/24/98 -0800 > >The model for The Wicked Witch of the West was Baum's Mother-in-Law, >Jocelyn Matilda Gage. She is of the suffragist generation, in fact a key >player >whose writings were long lost. Her primary book is _Woman, Church, State_. >Mary Daly helped a great deal in bringing her back to attention--she quotes >extensively from her in at least two of her books. > >I'm finding this discussion fascinating. Its amazing how much is missed >by the young. I wonder if Maguire was aware of this stuff in his more >overtly political remake? The muchkinlanders are poor farmers struggling >under the vari9ous weights of tyranny of the Wizard, and later the Wicked >Witch of the East...Glinda isn't quite so good, though. >> >> I wonder if Frank Baum succeeded a strongly feminist generation? That >>of the sons of the original suffragists, perhaps?> > >> >>Patricia (Pat) Mathews >>mathews@unm.edu >> >> >Rudy Leon >Syracuse University >releon@syr.edu >(315) 425-8171 > > ~~ A conversation is a rare phenomenon... It is not a ~~ > ~~ confrontation. It is not a debate. It is not an exam. ~~ > ~~ It is questioning itself. It is a willingness to follow the ~~ > ~~ question wherever it may go. ~~ > > --David Tracy > _Plurality and Ambiguity_ > > ------------------------------------------------ Visit K8's webpage at: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~kclancy/ Pleeeease?? It looks all purty now! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:59:17 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: BGD Nominations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stahl, Sheryl wrote: > > I just read her _Primary Inversion_ and very much enjoyed it. > Unfortunately, it is the only book by her in our public library system > (Cincinnati) Thanks! :-) Best regards Catherine http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:29:06 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NYOUNGMAN Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 26 Jan 1998 to 27 Jan 1998 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit << The model for The Wicked Witch of the West was Baum's Mother-in-Law, Jocelyn Matilda Gage. >> It's Matilda Joslyn Gage, but wow...I had no idea they were related. The things I learn on this list!! ;-) Nicole ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:27:44 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: BDG nominations (Halfway Human) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > HALFWAY HUMAN by Carolyn Gilman. Very recent, paperback, > unforgettable.> > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews @unm.edu From the sf book review service from amazon comes this author quote: Note I haven't checked to see if it's paperback or trade paper... "Halfway Human" by Carolyn Ives Gilman "Halfway Human" is the most instinctual thing I have ever written. The six months during which I worked on it were like a protracted trance: I went to bed at night thinking about it and woke up thinking about it. The characters started dictating to me, and one even staged a coup, taking over my computer to tell his side of the story. I began to wonder about my sanity. I did not intend to make it about any particular issues, but at the time I was taking a course in the anthropology of gender, and some of my reading crept into my subconscious. But more than that, I feel that St. Louis crept into the book. I have lived here for five years as an expatriate Minnesotan, and I still react to the city with indignation. I find something sinister about the way the assumptions of slavery still hang around, clothed in civility and accommodation. The exercise of power is very naked in St. Louis. I doubt that I could have written "Halfway Human" in quite the same way if I had been living in a Northern city. -- Jennifer Krauel jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator *** Note: the book nomination period ends Friday (January 30) *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:44:46 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: BDG Nomination Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'd like to nominate _The Gate to Women's Country_ by Sheri S. Tepper. It's a fascinating look at one possible world evolving from a nuclear Armagedon which seems to have occured on either late 20th or early 21st century Earth. In Tepper's imaginion, the women have organized themselves to try to prevent a replay of the cataclysm the men brought upon their ancient ancestors. THere are men and women in this world, but they live mostly separated, and are ruled by a strict set of ordinances designed to perpetuate the Human race. The book keeps you reading at first to discover what makes this odd arrangement work, but as you read, you begin to sense an undercurrent, some overarching, secret plot, and the real delight is in guessing what this secret might be, and in discovering its subtle nuances as the book draws tt a close. A delightful, insightful look at "the battle of the sexes." List: $6.50 www.amazon.com: $5.20 You Save: $1.30 (20%) Reissue Edition Mass Market Paperback Published by Spectra Publication date: May 1997 Dimensions (in inches): 6.84 x 4.18 x .96 Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 26 Jan 1998 to 27 Jan 1998 In-Reply-To: <5352d67a.34cf4ec4@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thaks for the correction! The info, at least, is correct. I heard it on that special that was on TV a couple of years ago (in the States. I've never been on such an international list before. Its wonderful to be reminded that the US isn't all there is...) on Baum's life--I can't remember if it was a Made-for-TV movie, or a Biography special though... It would seem that NYOUNGMAN said, 10:29 AM 1/28/98 EST ><< The model for The Wicked Witch of the West was Baum's Mother-in-Law, > Jocelyn Matilda Gage. >> > >It's Matilda Joslyn Gage, but wow...I had no idea they were related. The >things I learn on this list!! ;-) > >Nicole > > Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 ~~ A conversation is a rare phenomenon... It is not a ~~ ~~ confrontation. It is not a debate. It is not an exam. ~~ ~~ It is questioning itself. It is a willingness to follow the ~~ ~~ question wherever it may go. ~~ --David Tracy _Plurality and Ambiguity_