Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9802D" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 05:18:01 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Denise Borgen wrote: > > > On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Marina wrote: > > > > > > > > I wonder if there are sf books that consider human cloning as a way of > > > becoming a single parent. Does anyone know of any? > > > > > > Marina > > > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > > happens to be selling at the time." > > > Naomi Wolf > > > > > I know I have seen that in more than one story, more as background than > > as a central theme.... but I can't remember what stories. BTW the first > > time I read the term clone was ina story I read the late 70's where > > a group of persons were cloned from the same tissue and raised togethrer > > as a perfect team for space exploration. The catch was they grew so > > close, even communicating telepathically, that when 1 was caught in a > > trap, the others were psychologically incapable of leaving the trapped > > member and escaping themselves, even though there was no possible escape. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ~ Denise Borgen borgen@eskimo.com ~ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Cloning as a way of assuring inheritence and such is central to C.J. > Cherryh's Cyteen. It also figures in Pamela Sargent's Cloned Lives > > Mike > That's one of them all, right, I just started reading Cherryh a few months ago after being turned off her stuff for many years. ( it was the Faded Sun Kesrith that turned me off) ~ Denise M. Borgen ~ If the world were a logical ~ ~ ~ place, men would ride sidesaddle ~ ~ ~ -Rita Mae Brown ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ ~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:46:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Linda Quinlan Subject: Re: "lathe of heaven" the film Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:53 PM 2/21/98 -0800, you wrote: >ok y'all - i have *so* many requests from people just desperate to see >"the lathe of heaven" (the pbs film) that i would like to compile a >little list of people willing to show the film somehow in their home or >whatever. in other words, regional holders of copies of "the lathe of >heaven" who would be willing to take pity on these poor le guin fans. >anyone who is willing to have your email distributed, and to then >coordinate whatever with people, let me know. > >personally, as soon as i have my tv/vcr, and copy of "the lathe of >heaven" out here, i'll volunteer to cover for the bay area (i'm in san >francisco). my thinking was to put it on the web page but actually now i >think to be a bit more secure i'll just hold the list, and only send out >the name of the appropriate regional contacts ... > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > > ** No More War ** > ** No More Civilian Deaths ** > ** Don't Bomb Iraq! ** > >I live in New Orleans and would be happy to do this area for the film. Linda Later, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:34:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: xena-related listserves Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ok, i would like to update and include links to info about all the various xena-related listserves out there. i know of several but know that this is in no way comprehensive. i'd love it if people would either send me (OFF-LIST please) info about lists they know about, or if someone else who already has a comprehensive list would send it to me, or wants to volunteer to gather this info for me? it's worth a credit on the web pages (she added enticingly) ... Laura Quilter for peace against war Stop the War Against Iraq! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:50:48 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-22 00:41:24 EST, you write: << Cloning as a way of assuring inheritence and such is central to C.J. Cherryh's Cyteen. It also figures in Pamela Sargent's Cloned Lives Mike >> In Cyteen also, Justin Warwick, a central character, was a PR (cloned replicant) of a gay father (Jordan Warwick), who chose that way to reproduce. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:33:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: millenial musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:48 PM 2/21/98 -0600, you wrote: >Glimmering is a very impressive book, but feminist? I don't know. > >Interesting piece of trivia about it--the Mars Hill chapter basically reads >as science fiction, right? Hand won a Nebula, I think, for a story that >came out a couple of years ago called "Late Summer at Mars Hill," or >something like that, which is pure fantasy. It's the same physical locale, >even has some of the same characters, but the two stories, IMO, couldn't >exist in the same universe. > Yup, remembered that--thanks for the details. Lovely tale, full of glittering fairies... >Stephanie Smith's Other Nature is one of my favorite little known SF >novels of the past few years. Melancholy is the word, and wonderfully >understated. Just what are the children becoming at the end? After reading it, Smith's struck me as less melancholy, somehow, than the other two. Even though Goonan's is about space voyage and settling of new lands, there seemed to be no focus or feeling of future, or hope, whereas _Other Nature_ is all about the future becoming more human in many ways. Moving book, in any case. -Still- not anything (c)overtly feminist... Side question: who was the first publisher to come out with this new book format and look? I must say that the cover art is a lot more intriguing than the boobed-babe-in-harness style, but heck, how are we gonna know it's science fiction anymore? Actually--do you really think more non-SF people will be lured into reading it? Since it's still classified as SF and most normal, sane folk have long since learned not to venture into that part of the store... I noticed though that Border's is making a display table with new trade books. And by golly, you sure can't tell which are SF at first glance, except maybe they look the most artsy. And the descriptions on the back cover are definitely the most fun. *grins* Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu Reality is only a question of language. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:35:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: silk Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I wonder if there are sf books that consider human cloning as a way of > becoming a single parent. Does anyone know of any? > > Marina > John Varley's "Lollipop and the Tar Baby" has a rather interesting take on a mother/daughter clone pairing. It ain't all sweetness and light, though . . . Wendy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:38:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: millenial musings In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980222124328.44af0af4@pop.kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Heather MacLean wrote: > >Stephanie Smith's Other Nature is one of my favorite little known SF > >novels of the past few years. Melancholy is the word, and wonderfully > >understated. Just what are the children becoming at the end? > > After reading it, Smith's struck me as less melancholy, somehow, than the > other two. Even though Goonan's is about space voyage and settling of new > lands, there seemed to be no focus or feeling of future, or hope, whereas > _Other Nature_ is all about the future becoming more human in many ways. > Moving book, in any case. -Still- not anything (c)overtly feminist... > > Side question: who was the first publisher to come out with this new book > format and look? I must say that the cover art is a lot more intriguing than > the boobed-babe-in-harness style, but heck, how are we gonna know it's > science fiction anymore? Actually--do you really think more non-SF people > will be lured into reading it? Since it's still classified as SF and most > normal, sane folk have long since learned not to venture into that part of > the store... I noticed though that Border's is making a display table with > new trade books. And by golly, you sure can't tell which are SF at first > glance, except maybe they look the most artsy. And the descriptions on the > back cover are definitely the most fun. *grins* > > Heather > =) > Despite the enormous amount of crap being published for 15 year old boys of all ages, publishers know that in general the mainline SF audience is aging. They also know that the dividing line between upscale SF and mainstream fiction is blurring. Hence the more sophisticated and literate book jacket covers and the increasing frequency with which true SF novels are being published as mainstream fiction, witness Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow, Kristen Bakis's Lives of the Monster Dogs, Matt Ruff's Sewer Gas and Electric, and Hand's Glimmering for that matter. Upscale covers have always been around, mostly used by the better publishers. In recent years though Tor books has been a leader in publishing books with adult covers. In a related move, many of these more upscale SF novels are no longer coming out in mass market paperbacks. They get hardcover publication, a trade paperback at $14, and that's it. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:48:56 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: millenial musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-22 16:41:33 EST, you write: << Despite the enormous amount of crap being published for 15 year old boys of all ages, publishers know that in general the mainline SF audience is aging. They also know that the dividing line between upscale SF and mainstream fiction is blurring. Hence the more sophisticated and literate book jacket covers and the increasing frequency with which true SF novels are being published as mainstream fiction >> Regarding this, the Washington Post's Sunday book review supplement, Book World, is to be commended for reviewing adult sf and fantasy as fiction outside of genre classifications, as well as employing knowledgeable sff authors as reviewers. They put the inadequate coverage of the New York Times Book Review and Gerald Jonas (particularly in the review of women authors) to shame. And if only someone could communicate the aging audience information to Cherryh's editors! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:10:54 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Trac' Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I wonder if there are sf books that consider human cloning as a way of >becoming a single parent. Does anyone know of any? > Here's Bujold again: Ethan of Athos is ALL about cloning. It's a world populated only by men and this is their sole means of reproduction. ... hang on, tell a lie - it's not true cloning, as they also use female ovaries. The whole premise of the book it that Athos has run out of female "stock", as it were, and Ethan is the one who is seconded to go off-world and deal with women. Hilarious book. The Miles Vorkosigan stories also deal with cloning (as Miles has a clone, Mark) - in these stories, the planet Beta commonly uses "uterine replicators" for reproduction, and clones have full civil rights (they're regarded as offspring or siblings of the "donor"). The other worlds in this universe regard Beta's attitude in that regard as disgustingly liberal. There is also "cloning to order" for immoral/illegal purposes done on a pirates'-den kind of a planet. Trac' ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:20:27 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina: I have memories of one sci-fi book - " The Rainbow Cadenza" - (I remember the title , but unfortunately not the author of the book) - which explores a futuristic society whereby reproduction was strictly controlled, and cloning was used under various circumstances. This future world was male-dominant (indeed its highest government heirarchy, were the "Gaymen" - homosexual men ruled the world). Women had no control over their reproduction, but I do remember that exceptional women were allowed to bear a cloned daughter as a reward. Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au At 21:53 21/02/98 -0600, you wrote: >The thread about sex/marriage/children made me wonder: what if you want >to have children, but: >1) don't want to get married; >2) don't feel like risking possible custody battles that could result >from an unofficial relationship; >3) the idea of artificial insemination kind of grosses you out (plus >you're unsure whether you can trust their selection of donors); >4) doubt that your single status will make adoption possible? > >Won't it be nice to be able to have a child who is only yours? For >example, through cloning. > >I've noticed that in sf, cloning of humans is present either as means of >mass replicating the DNA of some outstanding (and already dead) >individual for the purpose of creating "high quality humans", or as >providing a future organ donor for the original, a "back-up copy" for the >case of injury and old age. > >I wonder if there are sf books that consider human cloning as a way of >becoming a single parent. Does anyone know of any? > >Marina > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > happens to be selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:11:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Marina wrote: > > I've noticed that in sf, cloning of humans is present either as means of > mass replicating the DNA of some outstanding (and already dead) > individual for the purpose of creating "high quality humans", or as > providing a future organ donor for the original, a "back-up copy" for the > case of injury and old age. > > I wonder if there are sf books that consider human cloning as a way of > becoming a single parent. Does anyone know of any? > > Marina > Yes, indeed.In L. Neil Schulman's RAINBOW CADENZA, it's used routinely by gay men to provide themselves wiht sons. Women use parthenogenisis, which they will be the first to tell you is far superior. A common insult in that culture is "Cloneraper!" Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews @unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:11:54 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: millenial musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-21 23:31:24 EST, you write: << Nonetheless, it seems that all these books (Smith's from the back cover, admittedly) are all suffused with a sort of deepset melancholy that I somehow associate with recent American poetry I've read. Fin de siecle uneasiness, grasping at a gold-limned ideal of the past, mixed with the tugging of a wiresparked future? Some strange stomach clench, leadened by an undertone of Gregorian chants. >> A beautiful and accurate description of the malaise of our times! I feel that the melancholy you describe is a result of peoples' belated discovery that lives devoted to self-indulgence lead only to despair, not to happiness. There. Another one of my opinons for people to react to! barbara h. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:22:02 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: millenial musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-22 12:36:27 EST, you write: << I noticed though that Border's is making a display table with new trade books. And by golly, you sure can't tell which are SF at first glance, except maybe they look the most artsy >> One of the reasons SF isn't as much fun as it used to be is that it's become accepted to a great extent by the mainstream, and has subsequently become corrupted by the unpleasant aspects of mainstream fiction. Gritty, depressing novels about drug pushers and psychopaths have replaced the sense-of-wonder explorations of human potential that initially attracted me to the genre. Our literature reflects the despair of our times, and we continue to create literature that deepens that despair. I'm hoping for a turnaround--perhaps the increase in interest in spirituality and and the decreased love of materialism for its own sake are hopeful signs. It would be interesting to set a novel in a culture that's in such a transition stage. barbara h. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:40:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: millenial musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Barbara says: >Our literature reflects the despair of our times, and we continue to create > literature that deepens that despair. I'm hoping for a turnaround-- perhaps the > increase in interest in spirituality and and the decreased love of materialism > for its own sake are hopeful signs. Me, I hope a feminist strain of humanism can provide a third alternative to the standard materialism/spirituality dilemma. (I'm neither particularly materialistic nor spiritual, myself.) Perhaps this rush to embrace the darkness, this millennialism, should spur feminist writers to provide us with more positive visions, eh? -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:17:37 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf >L. Neil Schulman's RAINBOW CADENZA I found this horribly creepy. Because of the introduction of the means of choosing children's sex there is a massive excess of men. Some men can become 'Gaylords' but are then forbidden to have sex with women or non-gay men. All women have to do what I think was called 'Venerian' service, i.e. be state prostitutes to cater for the surging lusts of all these males. The service is organised along military lines but promotion seems to mean a woman gets to be one man's mistress rather than a 'common prostitute' who has to take on x no of men a day. The leading female character gets 'promoted' to being the concubine of a man with sexual habits that were weird even for an sf/fantasy baddie--coprophilia is not a perv one often comes across in fiction... (though Delany's 'The Mad Man' is in the same sort of area: mostly urolagnia as I recall--I've never read anything on the one hand so compellingly well-written and on the other that I had to put down nauseated so often.) There's also various episodes involving both the 'heroine' and her bad sister, of hunting and sexually molesting the 'touchables' who are non-citizens. I don't know if the author ever wrote anything else but I don't think I'd be tempted to read it if so. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:31:58 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: millenial musings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-23 13:48:06 EST, David wrote: << Perhaps this rush to embrace the darkness, this millennialism, should spur feminist writers to provide us with more positive visions, eh? >> As if we didn't have enough to do! Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:49:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf There's a story by James Tiptree Jr (can I remember the title? will I remember to check when I get home? ha!) included in the collection "Her Smoke Rose Up Forever" in which generations of daughters have been cloned from a small isolated female population. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:42:39 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: > >L. Neil Schulman's RAINBOW CADENZA > > I found this horribly creepy. Because of the introduction of the means of > choosing children's sex there is a massive excess of men. Some men can become > 'Gaylords' but are then forbidden to have sex with women or non-gay men. All > women have to do what I think was called 'Venerian' service, i.e. be state > prostitutes to cater for the surging lusts of all these males. The service is > organised along military lines but promotion seems to mean a woman gets to be > one man's mistress rather than a 'common prostitute' who has to take on x no > of men a day. The leading female character gets 'promoted' to being the > concubine of a man with sexual habits that were weird even for an sf/fantasy > baddie--coprophilia is not a perv one often comes across in fiction... (though > Delany's 'The Mad Man' is in the same sort of area: mostly urolagnia as I > recall--I've never read anything on the one hand so compellingly well-written > and on the other that I had to put down nauseated so often.) There's also > various episodes involving both the 'heroine' and her bad sister, of hunting > and sexually molesting the 'touchables' who are non-citizens. I don't know if > the author ever wrote anything else but I don't think I'd be tempted to read > it if so. > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > A footnote of sorts--Schulman is a Libertarian (ie. a member of the Libertarian party in the U.S. which means something somewhat different from what is implied by the general term libertarian) and this novel is considered--for reasons I don't entirely understand--a classic of Libertarian SF. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:41:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: [* FSFFU*] Strong Characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ><< To keep this vaguely on-topic, I find it intriguing that in SF novels, > "strong" women are often very strange, leather-clad babes with prosthetic > weaponry (razor fingernails come to mind) whereas as "strong" women in >fantasy > have big muscles and big swords and/or do some variation of aikido (e.g. > Elizabeth Lynn's books). >> > > sorry i am not timely here. I have been on the road. I would offer that Val in Halfway Human is neither muscle clad nor trained in martial arts but she certainly passes my muster as a "strong woman". I suspect that can be further discussed in BDG in May. Don't want to be a "spoiler". And, again no spoilers here, Marghe from Ammonite (another BDG selection) , is another of my admired "strong woman" characters. Not a better fighter/warrior but a woman of exceptional will and comittment. I see a thread here: strong women characters - more votes for the BDG. donna > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:58:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Wood Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: <19980223.174733.16726.0.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Frances Green wrote: > There's a story by James Tiptree Jr (can I remember the title? will I > remember to check when I get home? ha!) included in the collection "Her > Smoke Rose Up Forever" in which generations of daughters have been cloned > from a small isolated female population. > Hi Francis, The story is "Houston, Houston Do You Read" where a group of male astronauts, of varying degrees of misogyny, are transferred to an all female future. All the men on earth died (disease I think) and only a small number of women survived who form the basis of clone families with their own histories and characteristics. The astronauts, despite their conviction that males are superior and will be welcomed and worshipped, are deemed far too dangerous to live in a society that has fundamentally changed. Its a great story. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:44:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Strong Characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ><< One thing that I've noticed is that rarely is a woman allowed to be >"strong" > (in fantasy or SF) without becoming relentlessly cold. "Strong" women (that > I've seen) usually don't like children, are either celibate or have >ruthlessly > casual sex, and never get close to anyone. > >> let me add another memory, Lilith from O. Butlers Xenogenisis trilogy, to my mind, was consistently a strong and courageous woman. And she was a "homemaker" of a sort. In fact my primary motivation to finish any book of SF is the presence of a female character that is admirable for her strength...strength to resist, strength to persevere, etc. Not necessarily limited to a strength to overpower physically or win with better weapons. donna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:25:35 +0100 Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: Tanya Wood 's message of Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:58:05 -0500 * Tanya Wood > Hi Francis, The story is "Houston, Houston Do You Read" where a > group of male astronauts, of varying degrees of misogyny, are > transferred to an all female future. All the men on earth died > (disease I think) and only a small number of women survived who > form the basis of clone families with their own histories and > characteristics. The astronauts, despite their conviction that > males are superior and will be welcomed and worshipped, are deemed > far too dangerous to live in a society that has fundamentally > changed. Its a great story. Tanya A somewhat similar story is David Brin's Glory Season. It's set on a planet where female clone clans are the ruling classes, each clan occupying a profession. There is also a small class of men, whose biological role is seasonal mating, in order to maintain some degree of random recombination to maintain a basis for natural selection and evolution. The children of these matings are either males who maintain the male population or they are new females, "wild seeds", females who are not part of a clone clan. These new females are kicked out of their clan when they are 15, and then they have to find their own profession niche and try to get a new clone clan started... The problem is that it's getting harder to find available niches for the female "wild seeds". The main characters of the novel are two one-egged "wild seed" twins, and their struggle and exploration of their world. Further complications occur when this planet is rediscovered by representatives from the Earth federation... It's a good read, Brin is good at thinking through his premises and their consequences and make this society believable. Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:17:56 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > A footnote of sorts--Schulman is a Libertarian (ie. a member of the > Libertarian party in the U.S. which means something somewhat different > from what is implied by the general term libertarian) and this novel is > considered--for reasons I don't entirely understand--a classic of > Libertarian SF. > It's considered so because the government is shown as being horrible and creepy, and because the heroine, Joan, successfully rebels. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:57:07 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daphne Bartash Subject: Re: Content-Type: text/plain Hello there: I'm new to the list and thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Daphne, though online I go by SoulStar. *s* I'm a long-time fan of both sf and fantasy, but mainly stick to fantasy these days. I'm working on a site, StarKeep, about memorable female characters in fantasy books. Any input is appreciated. The URL is: http://www.cynetcity.com/twilightzone/36/starkp1.html I'll be starting off with characters in Melanie Rawn's Sunrunner books -- Sioned and Tobin. Any comments? Looking forward to hearing from you... In Light, SoulStar GeoCities Athens Community Leader CyNetCity Zone Captain - Twilight Zone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:31:41 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > A footnote of sorts--Schulman is a Libertarian (ie. a member of the > Libertarian party in the U.S. which means something somewhat different > from what is implied by the general term libertarian) and this novel is > considered--for reasons I don't entirely understand--a classic of > Libertarian SF. > On Tuesday 24th Feb Patricia Mathews wrote >It's considered so because the government is shown as being >horrible and creepy, and because the heroine, Joan, successfully rebels. > But a lot of sf/fantasy works present horrible creepy govts (and heroic rebellion) without being libertarian classics: and to make a general case re the horrible creepiness of The State it might be better to choose a less obnoxious case than the one depicted in the RC! Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:11:00 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Pat wrote: > On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > A footnote of sorts--Schulman is a Libertarian (ie. a member of the > > Libertarian party in the U.S. which means something somewhat different > > from what is implied by the general term libertarian) and this novel is > > considered--for reasons I don't entirely understand--a classic of > > Libertarian SF. > > > It's considered so because the government is shown as being > horrible and creepy, and because the heroine, Joan, successfully rebels. > > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > I wasn't being very clear :(. I understand why the book is considered Libertarian. I just don't understand why it's considered a classic. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:15:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf--David Brin's Glory Season Comments: To: Thomas Gramstad In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Thomas Gramstad wrote: > A somewhat similar story is David Brin's Glory Season. It's set on > a planet where female clone clans are the ruling classes, each clan > occupying a profession. There is also a small class of men, whose > biological role is seasonal mating, in order to maintain some degree > of random recombination to maintain a basis for natural selection > and evolution. The children of these matings are either males who > maintain the male population or they are new females, "wild seeds", > females who are not part of a clone clan. These new females are > kicked out of their clan when they are 15, and then they have to > find their own profession niche and try to get a new clone clan > started... The problem is that it's getting harder to find > available niches for the female "wild seeds". The main characters > of the novel are two one-egged "wild seed" twins, and their struggle > and exploration of their world. Further complications occur when > this planet is rediscovered by representatives from the Earth > federation... It's a good read, Brin is good at thinking through > his premises and their consequences and make this society > believable. > > Thomas Gramstad > thomasg@ifi.uio.no > This is a fascinating book, but it's one that feminists tend to have mixed reactions to. Some like it, some hate it. Brin has always been angry that Glory Season didn't win the Tiptree Award for gender-bending fiction (it was a semi-finalist I believe). Gwyneth Jones did an amazing hatchet job on the novel in a review in SF Eye when it first came out, arguing that the novel wasn't really feminist at all. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:34:25 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: millenial musings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:22:02 EST, "Barbara R. Hume" wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-22 12:36:27 EST, you write: > ><< I noticed though that Border's is making a display table with > new trade books. And by golly, you sure can't tell which are SF at first > glance, except maybe they look the most artsy >> > >One of the reasons SF isn't as much fun as it used to be is that it's become >accepted to a great extent by the mainstream, and has subsequently become >corrupted by the unpleasant aspects of mainstream fiction. Gritty, depressing >novels about drug pushers and psychopaths have replaced the sense-of-wonder >explorations of human potential that initially attracted me to the genre. Our >literature reflects the despair of our times, and we continue to create >literature that deepens that despair. I'm hoping for a turnaround--perhaps the >increase in interest in spirituality and and the decreased love of materialism >for its own sake are hopeful signs. It would be interesting to set a novel in >a culture that's in such a transition stage. > >barbara h. ***** News! http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:52:03 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Pat wrote: > On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > A footnote of sorts--Schulman is a Libertarian (ie. a member of the > > Libertarian party in the U.S. which means something somewhat different > > from what is implied by the general term libertarian) and this novel is > > considered--for reasons I don't entirely understand--a classic of > > Libertarian SF. > > > It's considered so because the government is shown as being > horrible and creepy, and because the heroine, Joan, successfully rebels. > > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > >I wasn't being very clear :(. I understand why the book is considered >Libertarian. I just don't understand why it's considered a classic. >Mike Possibly a look at the competition in Libertarian lit would lead one to understand why.... Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:17:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Final Nebula Ballot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Congratulations, Vonda, on making the final ballot for the Nebula Awards for The Moon and the Sun! Congrats also to L. Bujold for Memory, C. Willis for Bellweather, WJ Williams for City on Fire, J. McDevitt for Ancient Shores, GRR Martin for Game of Thrones....and my buddy, Kate Elliott, for King's Dragon! Debra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: the Ticktockman Subject: Whileaway In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" does anyone know where I can find the Whileaway stories? I think Joanna Russ wrote them but I'm not sure. joe santini * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * stars in his eyes and knocks in his knees the winds of love - all he gets is a breeze the soft smooth shock of passing on by when you look at him you see tears in his whys * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:00:24 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:10 PM 2/21/98 -0800, Denise Borgen wrote: >> I wonder if there are sf books that consider human cloning as a way of >> becoming a single parent. Does anyone know of any? >> >> Marina >I know I have seen that in more than one story, more as background than >as a central theme.... but I can't remember what stories. BTW the first >time I read the term clone was ina story I read the late 70's where >a group of persons were cloned from the same tissue and raised togethrer >as a perfect team for space exploration. The catch was they grew so >close, even communicating telepathically, that when 1 was caught in a >trap, the others were psychologically incapable of leaving the trapped >member and escaping themselves, even though there was no possible escape. > Might that be "Nine Lives" (if I have the title right, and am not embarrassing myself) from Playboy, by "U. K. LeGuin"? Ursula K. LeGuin was the first woman to sell fiction to Playboy when her agent submitted the story with only the author's initials. Since the story went on to win prizes and glory, the magazine was righteously stuck! Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:04:08 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG, Dreamsnake availability warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C32D86D3009F97082914F98C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C32D86D3009F97082914F98C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Vonda intended to send this out to the entire list, so I'm forwarding it. By the way, I visited a local independent bookseller last night and saw a new copy of Dreamsnake on the shelf (don't think I saw any in the used section though). Remember, discussion on our first book, Ammonite, begins next Monday, March 2. -- Jennifer Krauel jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator --------------C32D86D3009F97082914F98C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from glinda.oz.net ([208.154.100.6]) by mail.actioneer.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA214 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:27:57 -0800 Received: from sense-sea-pm4-22.oz.net (sense-sea-pm4-22.oz.net [208.154.96.118]) by glinda.oz.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA26067 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:25:19 -0800 (PST) From: vonda@oz.net (Vonda N. McIntyre) To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG And the winners are... Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:28:45 GMT Message-ID: <352774a2.238934862@mail.oz.net> References: <34DF4B00.BED499E6@actioneer.com> In-Reply-To: <34DF4B00.BED499E6@actioneer.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Probably would be a good idea for folks to get copies of Dreamsnake pretty soon. I just found out that the last copies of Dreamsnake are about to get pulped. (May already be gone.) I'm going to try to buy some copies, but if things go the way they did with the Starfarers books, it won't be possible. There's a small box of copies in my storeroom somewhere if anyone is desperate. Though it's kind of a blow to have the book go back out of print so soon, I'll be able to get the rights back. I wish I could say I was sorry Bantam had jettisoned me (when they turned down Moon & Sun and put all the Starfarers books OP), because that would mean the Spectra line was still in its prime. I don't think it is anymore, and that makes me sad. Vonda On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:29:21 -0800, Jennifer Krauel wrote: >_Dreamsnake_ by Vonda McIntyre, discussion begins Monday April 6 >... ***** http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda --------------C32D86D3009F97082914F98C-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:41:06 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Final Nebula Ballot In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks much, Deb, & "what you said"! Wonderful company to be in. Best, Vonda On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:17:10 -0500, Debra Euler wrote: >Congratulations, Vonda, on making the final ballot for the Nebula >Awards for The Moon and the Sun! > >Congrats also to L. Bujold for Memory, C. Willis for Bellweather, WJ >Williams for City on Fire, J. McDevitt for Ancient Shores, GRR Martin >for Game of Thrones....and my buddy, Kate Elliott, for King's Dragon! > >Debra ***** News! http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:08:54 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980224160024.006abb00@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Neil Rest wrote: > >a group of persons were cloned from the same tissue and raised togethrer > >as a perfect team for space exploration. The catch was they grew so > >close, even communicating telepathically, that when 1 was caught in a > >trap, the others were psychologically incapable of leaving the trapped > >member and escaping themselves, even though there was no possible escape. > > > > Might that be "Nine Lives" (if I have the title right, and am not > embarrassing myself) from Playboy, by "U. K. LeGuin"? Ursula K. LeGuin was > the first woman to sell fiction to Playboy when her agent submitted the > story with only the author's initials. Since the story went on to win > prizes and glory, the magazine was righteously stuck! > > > Neil Rest > NeilRest@tezcat.com > No, I can't recall reading any sf in Playboy, though I think I did read some articles from my Dads copies.. I am pretty sure the story was in Analog, or Galaxy in the late 70's or early eighties. Sounds interesting though, do you know if it was anthologized? Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Re: "Nine Lives" was Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This description does sound very similar to LeGuin's "Nine Lives," which was originally published in _Playboy_ (1969) but also included in her _Wind's Twelve Quarters_ anthology as well as a few other sf anthologies. (publication details courtesy of Locus magazine's wonderful sf database at http://www.sff.net/locus/0start.html) Heather Whipple hwhippl1@swarthmore.edu ps: Hi Denise! On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Denise Borgen wrote: > On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Neil Rest wrote: > > > >a group of persons were cloned from the same tissue and raised togethrer > > >as a perfect team for space exploration. The catch was they grew so > > >close, even communicating telepathically, that when 1 was caught in a > > >trap, the others were psychologically incapable of leaving the trapped > > >member and escaping themselves, even though there was no possible escape. > > > > > > > Might that be "Nine Lives" (if I have the title right, and am not > > embarrassing myself) from Playboy, by "U. K. LeGuin"? Ursula K. LeGuin was > > the first woman to sell fiction to Playboy when her agent submitted the > > story with only the author's initials. Since the story went on to win > > prizes and glory, the magazine was righteously stuck! > > > > > > Neil Rest > > NeilRest@tezcat.com > > > No, I can't recall reading any sf in Playboy, though I think I did read > some articles from my Dads copies.. I am pretty sure the story was in > Analog, or Galaxy in the late 70's or early eighties. > Sounds interesting though, do you know if it was anthologized? > > Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ > ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:59:23 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-23 14:43:48 EST, you write: > >L. Neil Schulman's RAINBOW CADENZA > > I found this horribly creepy. Because of the introduction of the means of > choosing children's sex there is a massive excess of men. Some men can > become > 'Gaylords' but are then forbidden to have sex with women or non-gay men. All > women have to do what I think was called 'Venerian' service, i.e. be state > prostitutes to cater for the surging lusts of all these males. The service is > organised along military lines but promotion seems to mean a woman gets to be > one man's mistress rather than a 'common prostitute' who has to take on x no > of men a day. The leading female character gets 'promoted' to being the > concubine of a man with sexual habits that were weird even for an sf/fantasy > baddie--coprophilia is not a perv one often comes across in fiction... (though > Delany's 'The Mad Man' is in the same sort of area: mostly urolagnia as I > recall--I've never read anything on the one hand so compellingly well- written > and on the other that I had to put down nauseated so often.) There's also > various episodes involving both the 'heroine' and her bad sister, of hunting > and sexually molesting the 'touchables' who are non-citizens. I don't know if > the author ever wrote anything else but I don't think I'd be tempted to read > it if so. > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Someone asked a while ago about SF books which backlash against feminism. While I haven't read this one, it certainly seems like a good start. I mean, a world in which women are being "erased", and the women who remain are forced into "service" for the men (i.e., for all their "rare" status, women are still treated in a terribly misogynistic fashion, rather than protected as most other "endangered species" are). Again, I haven't read this (and am not sure I'd be able to, despite the fact that I generally prefer to know exactly what I am talking about), and so perhaps this is untrue, but going by what Lesley has had to say about it, it certainly seems in keeping with the tone of the backlash. My (possibly misdirected) pair o' pennies, Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:01:20 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Whileaway joe santini wrote >does anyone know where I can find the Whileaway stories? I think Joanna >Russ wrote them but I'm not sure. Joanna Russ 'When it changed' 1972 first published in 'Again, Dangerous Visions' and collected in 'The Zanzibar Cat' collection of JR's stories. Russ's novel 'The Female Man' 1975 includes one thread relating to Whileaway: Whileawayan woman in present day US Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:10:09 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf Barbara wrote: >Someone asked a while ago about SF books which backlash against >feminism. While I haven't read this one, it certainly seems like a good start The RC came out in ?early to mid 80s. Whether it's backlash as such, though, is dubious, since the main protagonist (Joan?) is a woman, and there are various other strong (if not very pleasant) female characters. I found its assumptions about men were fairly loathsome as well! (Also the main premise perhaps a little dubious: would preference for male offspring really be so overwhelming?--a statistician could probably tell whether even a slight imbalance would eventually have this effect?) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:23:09 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:10 25/02/98 UT, Lesley Hall wrote: >Barbara wrote: > > >The RC came out in ?early to mid 80s. Whether it's backlash as such, though, >is dubious, .. ..(Also the main premise perhaps a little dubious: would preference for male offspring really be so overwhelming?--Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Its been many years since I read the book - but I have a vague memory that the preference for male offspring was sparked by some disastrous event, like a war? and women's fertility was tampered with in some way. By the time in which the story was set, I believe that women wishing to have children had to make application to the government and they were told how many and which sex they could have, by some sort of "credit" system. I do remember one of the women characters was offerred the rare opportunity to have a cloned daughter, in addition to a natural daughter. As for the venerian service - I remember that all women had to serve 3 years from the age of 18-21 in the GynCorps, to service the heterosexual men, who also had to earn their "once-a-month" visit with the GynCorps women - like a bonus in their pay-packets. Once their 3 years of 'national service' were completed - women did gain rights and freedoms similar to heterosexual men. But, the 3 years service in the GynCorps was non-negotiable - and the heroine in the story was a wanted criminal for escaping/rebelling from the GynCorps before her time was up. Also, rape wasnt an issue, and women did have freedom of movement and were relatively well-respected, and upon entering the GynCorps once they turned 18 were exhorted to lose their virginity however they wished (if they still had it) on their last night of freedom before *basic training* began. ( except for the *Touchables* - people on the fringes of society, the unemployed, the itinerant gypsies etc without papers, jobs or priviliges etc - both sexes were considered fair-game for sexual or other attack by both sexes of the privileged classes) > Actually, the only interesting thing I found in this book, was the portrayal of the homosexual male ruling class - many of the gayLords heaped scorn on both hetereosexual men ( for their "pathetic" dependence on women ) and on women - ( and were also corrupt as many were bisexual, but were forced to hide their desire for women in order to appear *politically correct* ) It was this issue which struck me the most - as so often in both sci-fi and general fiction - homosexuality is either not presented as being part of mainstream culture, or is presented as an attractive kind nurturing alternative. Are their other books which present gay males at the pinnacle of a power-structure? Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:25:51 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf >Are their other books which present gay males at the pinnacle >of a power-structure? Can't think of any offhand, apart from Katharine Burdekin ('Murray Constantine')'s dark 1930s dystopia of a future Nazi state, but a common perception of Ancient Greek citystates e.g. Athens is that this was, in practice, the case then! But that was probably to do with wider social questions about the status of women, the role of marriage (for children/property rather than companionship), and not actually a structural demand (e.g. Pericles lived with, but--any classicists on the list please correct me!--could not marry, the hetaira Aspasia). Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:59:11 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Nebula Final Ballot -- M&S Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yehaw Vonda! I'll put a note on the poster, up by the remaining signed copies! Yippee! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:15:21 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf--David Brin's Glory Season Content-Type: text/plain Gwyneth Jones is a consistently interesting critic, but I find that her idiosyncrasies and her highly political take on literature make her unreliable as a judge of books. I enjoyed Glory Season, and I've never seen another book with quite that approach to gender relations. Brin is best known as a writer of hard SF/space opera in the Niven vein, and Glory Season certainly followed in that tradition, favoring development of plot and millieu over character development. This might be part of the reason for its chilly reception. Also, the book, while exploring themes of gender and power which are central to feminism, does not subscribe to feminist politics such as they are -- for example, the main reason men are kept around on the planet is because the particular male talent for agression might be needed in case of war. I'm sure that also did not help. Dan Krashin >Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:15:11 -0600 >From: Michael Marc Levy >Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf--David Brin's Glory Season > >On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Thomas Gramstad wrote: > >> A somewhat similar story is David Brin's Glory Season. It's set on >> a planet where female clone clans are the ruling classes, each clan >> occupying a profession. There is also a small class of men, whose >> biological role is seasonal mating, in order to maintain some degree >> of random recombination to maintain a basis for natural selection >> and evolution. The children of these matings are either males who >> maintain the male population or they are new females, "wild seeds", >> females who are not part of a clone clan. These new females are >> kicked out of their clan when they are 15, and then they have to >> find their own profession niche and try to get a new clone clan >> started... The problem is that it's getting harder to find >> available niches for the female "wild seeds". The main characters >> of the novel are two one-egged "wild seed" twins, and their struggle >> and exploration of their world. Further complications occur when >> this planet is rediscovered by representatives from the Earth >> federation... It's a good read, Brin is good at thinking through >> his premises and their consequences and make this society >> believable. >> >> Thomas Gramstad >> thomasg@ifi.uio.no >> >This is a fascinating book, but it's one that feminists tend to have mixed >reactions to. Some like it, some hate it. Brin has always been angry that >Glory Season didn't win the Tiptree Award for gender-bending fiction (it >was a semi-finalist I believe). Gwyneth Jones did an amazing hatchet job >on the novel in a review in SF Eye when it first came out, arguing that >the novel wasn't really feminist at all. > >Mike Levy ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:36:38 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Nebula Final Ballot -- M&S In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Maryelizabeth -- There's a copy of the whole ballot at my web page, if anybody would like to look at it. (see .sig.) And I still have some of the cool MOON & SUN bookplates if anybody is interested. Black with gold printing, very baroque. Vonda On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:59:11 -0800, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >Yehaw Vonda! > >I'll put a note on the poster, up by the remaining signed copies! > >Yippee! > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com ***** Nebula News! http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:33:31 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Karin Boye: Kallocain In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980222124328.44af0af4@pop.kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT 2 months ago I finished the dystopian novel _Kallocain_ by Karin Boye. As the list is comparatively quiet right now, I thought that perhaps somebody on the list can help me a bit with the background of that book. I've read the book in the first place because I wanted to diversify a bit by reading novels from writers outside of the UK or North America and this was the first which came to hand. According to the blurb Karin Boye was a Swedish poetess and a communist who killed herself in 1941. Kallocain was her only novel (true?), it was published or written in 1940. _Kallocain_ reminded me a lot of _1984_ (which was published 8 years later) in that it also describes a state, in which every act is watched and controlled. There are cameras and microphones in each room, even at home. People live to serve the state. The story is told from the perspective of the male chemist Kall who develops a truth serum called Kallocain. Under the influence of Kallocain every person spontaneously starts to tell his/her inner thoughts, i.e. the people loose their last retreat. In the beginning Kall is - from the perspective of the state - the perfect citizen, his doubts come very (too) late in the book. The novel was interesting to read but I was not particularly thrilled by it, however, I was not thrilled by _Brave, New World_ or _1984_ either when I read them 10-15 years ago. What I wonder about is why the two latter novels are so well known but _Kallocain_ is not although _1984_ and _Kallocain_ deal with similar issues? Is it the comparative literary merit (which I cannot judge as I hardly remember the 2 classics), is it the fact that the book was not written in English and had to be translated (but in Germany the two latter are also often-cited classics, Kallocain is not), is it because - contrary to the hero in _1984_ - Kall is hard to sympathise with (at least I had difficulties) ? It might also happened that at first _Kallocain_ was not long in print, then somehow got lost and had to be rediscoverd (by the way, according to Amazon the novel was published in English in 1966 and 1985). Any thoughts on the novel or further information? Petra P.S.: Ah, yes, although written by a female I did not discover anything particularly feminist in the novel. ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:11:04 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Karin Boye: Kallocain In-Reply-To: <181B8E17CA5@iers1.ier.uni-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > 2 months ago I finished the dystopian novel _Kallocain_ by Karin > Boye. As the list is comparatively quiet right now, I thought > that perhaps somebody on the list can help me a bit with the > background of that book. I've read the book in the first place > because I wanted to diversify a bit by reading novels from writers > outside of the UK or North America and this was the first which came > to hand. > > According to the blurb Karin Boye was a Swedish poetess and a > communist who killed herself in 1941. Kallocain was her only novel > (true?), it was published or written in 1940. > > _Kallocain_ reminded me a lot of _1984_ (which was published 8 years > later) in that it also describes a state, in which every act is > watched and controlled. There are cameras and microphones in each > room, even at home. People live to serve the state. The story is told > from the perspective of the male chemist Kall who develops a truth > serum called Kallocain. Under the influence of Kallocain every person > spontaneously starts to tell his/her inner thoughts, i.e. the people > loose their last retreat. In the beginning Kall is - from the > perspective of the state - the perfect citizen, his doubts come very > (too) late in the book. > I looked Boye up in the old edition of The Science Fiction Encyclopedia (I'm at work and my new edition of the Encyclopedia is at home). She's briefly mentioned in the article on Scandanavian SF as follows: "After this first surge of popular sf, however, the field stagnated in Scandinavia. apart from notable single works (as for instance Karin Boye's Kallocain, 1940, Sweden, a major dystopian novel) almost no sf was issued until the 1950s." Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:05:11 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG Book discussion group info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've had a few requests to resend the basic book group info. Since we don't yet have this posted to a web page, I'll send it as email. This isn't different from the last one I sent, with the exception of the list of upcoming books. Feminist Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Discussion Group Upcoming Books _Ammonite_ by Nicola Griffith: discussion begins Monday March 2 _Dreamsnake_ by Vonda McIntyre, discussion begins Monday April 6 _Halfway Human_ by Carolyn Gilman, discussion begins Monday May 4 Objective The book discussion group's objective is to focus discussion on a particular book at a particular time to get as many people participating and enjoying the group as possible. It's not meant to change the nature of the FSF list, just focus the discussion. Book selection Group members nominate any feminist "speculative fiction" book. Nominated books can include novels or short story collections and can be any flavor of SF such as science fiction, fantasy, utopian fiction, alternative history, etc. but should not include critical essays. When you nominate a book, include a description of why you feel the group should select it. The description will be included in the nominated books list on our web site, to help members decide which books to vote for. Books may be recent or "classic", but they must all be available in mass market or trade paperback in order to keep the price within everybody's range. This unfortunately eliminates the out-of-print or very new books, but there's still plenty of great material that qualifies. Please confirm the availability of any title you are interested in nominating by contacting Maryelizabeth at mystgalaxy@ax.com (or amazon.com). Book discussion titles may be purchased anywhere or borrowed from the library -- we recommend supporting your local independent feminist or SF bookseller. For those without such resources, Mysterious Galaxy (http://www.mystgalaxy.com) offers a 15% discount on book discussion titles. Members vote for three books each, and the three books receiving the most votes are read and discussed in alphabetical order by title for the next three months. Nominations are open for one week, and then voting is open for a week. We will follow a plan like this for a three-month period, then adjust the overall program if necessary, say for a six-month period. During the nomination period, you can nominate books by sending email to the group with BDG Nomination in the subject line. A volunteer collects the nominations daily during the nomination period and updates the nomination list on the group's web page, part of the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Utopia web site, currently at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.html but subject to change soon. Voting happens by sending email to a volunteer who tabulates votes and announces winners. The reading schedule will be posted on the group's web page. There will be announcements at the beginning and end of each period in the book selection cycle, and before the beginning of each monthly discussion. Structure New book discussions begin monthly on the first Monday of the month. We'll use this main list but we can move the discussion to a separate list if many people complain about volume. A leader opens each discussion with a brief book synopsis (so those who didn't read it can follow along if they want) and by leading members in identifying the book's themes to give the discussion some structure. Book group discussion messages should include the string "BDG" (for Book Discussion Group) in the subject. It would also be helpful to include the title or initials of the title in the subject, so that particularly enthusiastic discussions can spill over into the next month. Spoiler disclaimers are not necessary once discussion has begun. Members are encouraged to follow the general list rules such as quoting only the necessary parts of original messages in responses to reduce excess bandwidth. Discussion can be literary and theoretical or more concrete discussions about plot or character development. There's enough of a mix of people on the list that we can each participate in the aspects that interest us and ignore those aspects that don't. Remember, the group's purpose is to encourage rather than discourage discussion. Members are encouraged to suggest a bibliography of essays or other works pertaining to the book currently under discussion or the following month's book. If possible this bibliography would also be maintained on the web page. Book Group Volunteers (initial round): - Collect nominations and update the list on the web site: Geoffrey D. Sperl (gamgee@geocities.com) - Collect votes, tabulate and announce the winners: Barbara Benesch (BJBenesch@aol.com) - Maintain the reading schedule on the web site, including bibliograpy of related reading materials: Geoffrey D. Sperl (gamgee@geocities.com) with help from Kathleen M. Friello (Kmfriello@aol.com) - Lead a discussion by posting a book summary and opening discussion ^Ö please volunteer after books are selected. - Providing a 15% discount for selected books: Maryelizabeth Hart (mystgalaxy@ax.com), please see her web site at http://www.mystgalaxy.com - Maintaining discussion group process, announcing group events, coordinating volunteers (group coordinator): Jennifer Krauel (jkrauel@actioneer.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:23:35 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: [Fwd: Also by the author of Dreamsnake... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------541ED02B26E671E8CDF0C5B6" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------541ED02B26E671E8CDF0C5B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Going through old emails I found this message from Neil, who probably thought it went to the list. I have a copy of Exile Waiting but haven't got to it yet. I remember reading some academic essay about it as an example of... oh, I've pretty much completely forgotten at this point. At any rate, I picked it up (used, is it still even in print, Vonda?) after reading about it. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com --------------541ED02B26E671E8CDF0C5B6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from quilla.tezcat.com ([204.128.247.10]) by mail.actioneer.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA235 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:14:37 -0800 Received: from neilrest.tezcat.com (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id QAA06198 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:12:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210122951.00685994@tezcat.com> X-Sender: NeilRest@tezcat.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:29:51 -0600 To: jkrauel@actioneer.com From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG And the winners are... In-Reply-To: <34DF4B00.BED499E6@actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >_Dreamsnake_ by Vonda McIntyre, discussion begins Monday April 6 Really ambitious peole can also look for _Exile Waiting_, set on the same world. Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com --------------541ED02B26E671E8CDF0C5B6-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:34:52 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: strong women as characters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Feb 98 00:04:06 CST." <199802260604.AAA150010@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >let me add another memory, Lilith from O. Butlers Xenogenisis trilogy, to my >mind, was consistently a strong and courageous woman. And she was a >"homemaker" of a sort. In fact my primary motivation to finish any book of >SF is the presence of a female character that is admirable for her >strength...strength to resist, strength to persevere, etc. Not necessarily >limited to a strength to overpower physically or win with better weapons. Kate Elliott/Alis Rasmussen (the former's the pen name for the latter) has strong, *complete* characters sprinkled liberally throughout her books. They're frequently protagonists, but in a welcome break from the one-strong-woman tradition they also feature as sidekicks, enemies, desk clerks, subordinates, everyday soldiers, doctors, etc, etc, etc. As someone else noted (sorry, I don't remember who) she has some interesting takes on sex roles: they're fixed but don't serve to subordinate either group. (How's that for a utopia...) Her women rule cities, lead revolutions, fall in love, play with children, make close friends, and are named the spiritual heirs to the greatest saboteur/assassin of the last century or so. As they used to say in my high school: "well-rounded". Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:07:10 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 24 Feb 1998 to 25 Feb 1998 Content-Type: text/plain Geoff Ryman wrote a story whose title escapes me ("Oh Happy Day?") Where the US is controlled by radical feminists who are methodically killing off "patriarchal males." They are assisted in this by a group of gay men who help clear out and burn the dead bodies. Despite the darkness of the themes, the story struck me as terrifically funny; I doubt this is what Ryman intended. Dan Krashin >From: Julieanne Le Comte >Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf Lesley Hall wrote: >>Barbara wrote: [snip] >Actually, the only interesting thing I found in this book, was the >portrayal of the homosexual male ruling class - many of the gayLords heaped >scorn on both hetereosexual men ( for their "pathetic" dependence on women >) and on women - ( and were also corrupt as many were bisexual, but were >forced to hide their desire for women in order to appear *politically >correct* ) > >It was this issue which struck me the most - as so often in both sci-fi and >general fiction - homosexuality is either not presented as being part of >mainstream culture, or is presented as an attractive kind nurturing >alternative. Are their other books which present gay males at the pinnacle >of a power-structure? > >Julieanne >ppp98@cs.net.au ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:05:35 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: A request to editors/publishers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello! A student in my department has an assignment in her technical writing course where she has to interview someone who has the kind of job she wishes to have in future. She wants to work as a fiction editor, specifically with SF (she has already started work on her first SF novel). If anyone who works in editing/publishing would be willing to correspond with her, please email me privately, and I will forward your name/address to her. Thank you! Robin Anne Reid ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:42:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: silk Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Are their other books which present gay males at the pinnacle > >of a power-structure? > > Can't think of any offhand, apart from Katharine Burdekin ('Murray > Constantine')'s dark 1930s dystopia of a future Nazi state > Lesley I have the impression, perhaps mistaken, that it's not all that uncommon a strategy when an author wishes to characterize men as totally self-serving, as in "see, they're so andro-centric, they won't even have *sex* with women!" It's been a while since I've read them, but isn't one of the male societies in Charnas' Riding Women novels a male "homosexual" one? That's also, as I recall, the case with some of the City dwelling males in Gearheart's Wanderground. And, of course, there're the Manlanders in Russ's Female Man, who have sex with other "men" who've been surgically altered to become "women," as well as with effeminate men who're forced to work as prostitutes. There was a hierarchy whose details I've forgotten, but which went something like 'real men' (those who fuck) versus 'half men' and 'not men' (those who get fucked). In an odd sort of way, there's also a sort of homosexual power structure in Geoff Ryman's novella "O Happy Day," where gay men pull other gay men out of the trains that are taking the males to be slaughtered. Of course, they're only at the top of the power structure in the transit camp, not in society as a whole. On the issue of how likely a major imbalance between the sexes is, it might be worth noting that a huge percentage of abortions in some East Indian communities and in parts of China are currently being targeted at female fetuses. This isn't a great social conspiracy to eliminate women, but simply the collective result of a lot of individual couples deciding they want *their* child or children to be male. It doesn't seem to occur to them to wonder who those boys, if heterosexual, are going to pair off with . . . Wendy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:28:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: Re: Rainbow Cadenza: was Human Cloning in sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, it seems to me that the perhaps common strategy of a totally androcentric society falls back to what ancient Greek society was believed to be like: men were so admired that admiring another male body (including same-sex intimacy and man-boy pairings) was valued higher than the female body. In some senses this is correct, but the ancient Greek (men) structured sexuality differently than current western conceptions. I think that Charnas at least leaned on classical Greek society for her male society EXCEPT for changing it so that sex between different age-levels was forbidden. In Greece (according to Halperin, can't think of the reference now) it was a power relation between citizens and non-citizens and helots (surfs), women, and youths below a certain age were all non-citizens and nominally equally possible sexual partners (as recipients, phallus- not penis- is important here) and that one of the greatest "sins" was a citizen receiving and/or two citizens paired together. Enough of a "history" lesson for today, misha bernardm@colorado.edu > > >[Wendy mentioned] >I have the impression, perhaps mistaken, that it's not all that uncommon a >strategy when an author wishes to characterize men as totally self-serving, >as in "see, they're so andro-centric, they won't even have *sex* with >women!" It's been a while since I've read them, but isn't one of the male >societies in Charnas' Riding Women novels a male "homosexual" one? That's >also, as I recall, the case with some of the City dwelling males in >Gearheart's Wanderground. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:57:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Ph.D. Application Statement of Goals I am applying to the Ph.D. program in English at Georgia State University and part of the application requirements includes a statement of educational goals and career goals. Below is a rough draft. Please feel free to criticize and offer suggestions. Thank you! Ph.D. Statement of Educational and Career Goals: My ultimate goal is to teach and write books and articles on religious literature or literature that lends itself to religious thought. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for, among other things, suggesting the possibility of life on other worlds. I propose to write a Ph.D. dissertation exploring the theological implications of life on other worlds, the meaning of life on this world and others, apocalyptic cycles in terms of the meaning of death and resurrection, and in particular the Christ motif (especially in terms of the avatar of Christ on other worlds) in science fiction and fantasy literature. Drs. Victor Kramer and Shelton Waldrep have indicated they are willing to help me pursue my research for this dissertation. We have studied Walker Percy and Walter Miller together and plan to pursue the subject in earnest. Furthermore, Dr. Timothy Renick of the Philosophy Department has also indicated he will help me research religious essays on the topic of life on other worlds. Giordano Bruno wrote of an infinity of habitable worlds; John Wilkins, a bishop, wrote of journeys to the moon in mechanical devices; Francis Godwin, a bishop, wrote a satire about the same subject. I could list numerous other religious thinkers prior to the twentieth century who wrote either fiction or essays about the subject of life on other worlds. I intend to read the writings of these authors and and twentieth century authors to explore their theological insights into the realm of the possible. I intend to study the historic relationship between Christian theology and English literature, with a particular focus on the modern science-fiction genre and its impact, acceptability, or cause for controversy in Christian theology. I plan to answer the following question in my research: "How has Christianity (in general and in particular historical, political, and geographical circumstances) responded to literature which incorporates apocalyptic cycles in modern dress, the very possible problem of the salvation of intelligent beings from other worlds, and humanity's place in God's salvation plan within the context of a universe filled with beings, either sinful or in a pre-Fallen state, who need the God who created them?" I want to do a study of how "apocalyptic" itself has evolved over the centuries, hypothesizing that modern science fiction is the late twentieth century's _Revelation to John_. My dissertation will detail the influence writers have had on the theology of dealing with life on other worlds. I intend to study a variety of authors who have a religious background or knowledge of religion such as, possibly, Walter M. Miller, Jr., Michael Bishop, Gene Wolfe, James Blish, Jorge Luis Borges, Ray Bradbury, Arthur C. Clarke, R. A. Lafferty, Philip Jose Farmer, Andrew Greeley, Robert Silverberg, Jack McDevitt, Michael Cassutt, Nancy Kress, James Patrick Kelly, Jeff Duntemann, Anthony Boucher, Gordon Harris, Katherine Kurtz, Stephen Lawhead, Vernon Lee, D. Keith Mano, Edgar Allan Poe, Jerry Pournelle, Mary Doria Russell, Upton Sinclair, and William Younger (this is only a short list of a wide range of possibilities). I'm particularly interested in science fiction and fantasy stories with the Christ motif. Again, several professors at Georgia State have indicated they will help me in this area of modern American fiction. The material I wish to study supports my main goal of answering the question about literature's impact on Christian theology's reaction to the very real possibility of life on other worlds. I would like to study, in my plan, a variety of literary works including and especially texts that are religious in nature. My primary scholarly pursuit will be texts written with Catholic themes or by Catholic authors in the genres of science fiction and fantasy literature. Works prior to 1660 and after 1660 that have strongly influenced science fiction and fantasy include Homer's ODDYSSEY, the Bible, the anonymous Beowulf, Chaucer's CANTERBURY TALES, Milton's PARADISE LOST, Dante's DIVINE COMEDY, and the metaphysical poets, and contain a wealth of religious ideas and theology that particularly influenced the religious science fiction and fantasy writers of the 19th and 20th centuries. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com // /// \\\ \\ Delay not your conversion to the LORD, Put it not off from day to day Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 5:8 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:27:31 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG: Looking for Ammonite discussion leader volunteer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yikes. It's the eleventh hour and I'm so wrapped up in my day job that I just now realized we don't have a discussion group leader for Monday's Ammonite discussion kick-off. Been thinking about helping out? Have some great ideas about the book you'd like to share with others? There aren't any rules and not much is required - just agree to send an email late Sunday or bright and shiny Monday introducing the book, identifying what you think are the themes, and optionally say something controversial enough to get everyone participating. I'm not sure the last thing is really necessary with this group, although I've seen it work well elsewhere. Please email me if you can help. Thanks! Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:23:11 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Denise Borgen wrote: > On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Neil Rest wrote: > > > Might that be "Nine Lives" (if I have the title right, and am not > > embarrassing myself) from Playboy, by "U. K. LeGuin"? Ursula K. LeGuin was > > the first woman to sell fiction to Playboy when her agent submitted the > > story with only the author's initials. Since the story went on to win > > prizes and glory, the magazine was righteously stuck! > > > > > > Neil Rest > > NeilRest@tezcat.com > > > No, I can't recall reading any sf in Playboy, though I think I did read > some articles from my Dads copies.. I am pretty sure the story was in > Analog, or Galaxy in the late 70's or early eighties. > Sounds interesting though, do you know if it was anthologized? > > Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ > ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ > I remember reading somewhere in the early eighties that Nine Lives was first published in Playboy. It's been anthologized in _The Wind's Twelve Quarters_, also by LeGuin. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:31:53 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Ph.D. Application Statement of Goals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-27 18:03:25 EST, you write: << Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for, among other things, suggesting the possibility of life on other worlds. I propose to write a Ph.D. dissertation exploring the theological implications of life on other worlds, the meaning of life on this world and others, apocalyptic cycles in terms of the meaning of death and resurrection, and in particular the Christ motif (especially in terms of the avatar of Christ on other worlds) in science fiction and fantasy literature. >> You may be interested to know that the Mormon Church teaches that God has created and peopled countless worlds, that he has done so and will continue to do so throughout eternity. It's the only religion I know of that teaches such a thing. So we have no problem with the concept of intelligent life on other planets! That may be one reason that Mormons are attracted to the genre. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:26:21 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Enoch's Vision (Cary Enoch R.)" Subject: Re: Ph.D. Application Statement of Goals In-Reply-To: <295fc758.34f82deb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:31 28-02-1998 -0500, Lurima wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-27 18:03:25 EST, you write: > > >You may be interested to know that the Mormon Church teaches that God has >created and peopled countless worlds, that he has done so and will continue to >do so throughout eternity. It's the only religion I know of that teaches such >a thing. So we have no problem with the concept of intelligent life on other >planets! That may be one reason that Mormons are attracted to the genre. > >barbara > The Baha'i Faith originated in Iran in the 1850's and is now spread all over the world. Its Founder also taught that creation is a never-ending process. He stated that an infinite number of other worlds have life on them. I know some Baha'is who are published writers of science fiction. I don't recall seeing any speculative fiction specifically inspired by its teachings though. It fascinates me that two large religious movements had those teachings over 150 years ago. Well, back to reading and lurking :-) Cary E.R. ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.mindspring.com/~faraday/ (my art gallery, plus poetry, satire, and psychodrama). Read "Blue Screen," a satire about the software industry. My new sites--coming soon to a screen near you: www.enochsvision.com (also .net and .arts). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Ph.D. Application Statement of Goals In-Reply-To: <295fc758.34f82deb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another very good new SF novel to check out is Ian MacLeod's The Great Wheel, which concerns an Anglican priest trying to come to terms with his vocation while working among the poor masses of North Africa in the 21st century. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: Ph.D. Application Statement of Goals Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail1.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Not a novel, but a graphic novel suggestion: ALIENS: SACRAFICE. An old one by a few years (I lost my copy about three years ago, which means it must be five or six years old...). A female priest (Catholic, I believe) who is losing her faith goes up against a Xenomorph that's been terrorizing a small town on a backwater planet. I personally thought it was the best of the ALIENS comics (especially since I never accepted the whole post-ALIENS movie story they cooked up...), and it might be because Newt, Hicks and Ripley don't figure into this story at all. Neither do the Predators. Don't quote me, but I believe the author was JM DeMattais and the artist was Paul Johnson (think that's the right name - the artist is the same artist that did Book 4 of THE BOOKS OF MAGIC with Neil Gaiman...). - Geoffrey