Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9803A" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:14:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: silk Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Neil Rest > > > NeilRest@tezcat.com > > > > > No, I can't recall reading any sf in Playboy, though I think I did read > > some articles from my Dads copies.. I am pretty sure the story was in > > Analog, or Galaxy in the late 70's or early eighties. > > Sounds interesting though, do you know if it was anthologized? > > > > Denise M. Borgen ~ Of course! Unix *is* User Friendly! ~ > > ~ borgen@eskimo.com ~ It's just very particular about who its' friends are ~ > > > > I remember reading somewhere in the early eighties that Nine Lives was > first published in Playboy. It's been anthologized in _The Wind's Twelve > Quarters_, also by LeGuin. > > Kathleen It was originally published in Playboy in the November, 1969 issue. As of 1979, it had already been anthologized 19 times, including in Le Guin's own collection of her short stories, The Wind's Twelve Quarters. Le Guin tells a very funny story about being coerced into allowing it to appear in Playboy with only her initials on the by-line, as Playboy's editors did not want to shock their readers with a woman writer (I guess the only appropriate position for women appearing in Playboy was on her back!). She spends some time in one of her essays speculating on what the initials "U.K." might stand for . . . and comes to the conclusion that she fancies "Ulysses Kingfisher" Le Guin. Wendy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:36:31 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: FEMSPEC Call Comments: To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu, owner-melus-l@listserver.TAMU-Commerce.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Announcing FEMSPEC, an interdisciplinary feminist journal dedicated to critical and creative works in the realms of SF, fantasy, magical realism, and other super-natural genres. If you are interested in speculating, theorizing, creating and questioning gender across the boundaries, we are recruiting editors and readers as well as manuscripts. We are emphasizing interdisciplinary approaches, and encourage work on teaching as well as literary and cultural criticism and creative material. We hope an approach to pedagogy will bring in work from a wider area of disciplines. We are interested in a variety of feminist approaches, and aim to be inclusive of ethnic and cultural diversity in an internationalist perspective. Please contact: Robin Anne Reid, Department of Literature and Languages, Texas A&M University-Commerce, Commerce TX, 75429. Robin_Reid@tamu-commerce.edu. FAX: 903-886-5980 OR Batya Weinbaum, batyawein@aol.com Articles and abstracts submitted in triplicate by April 1. Creative writing is accepted: short fiction, 15 pages or less; poetry, 3 poems per submission. Art and book reviews of 1000 words or less also welcome. For those interested in reviewing or being on the editorial or advisory boards, please also send vitas and areas of interest. We are at a formative stage, and are seeking a journal to host our first issue so that we have a concrete product with documented response to show publishers and institutions to solicit support. The impetus came from the collectively perceived lack of attention to these works in feminist journals and audiences, the lack of consistently evolving developed levels of feminism in sf criticism, and the inadequacy of major publishing outlets in the US. The response from initial postings has been large, international, appreciative and indicative of a sustainable community of readers and contributors. Possible upcoming articles and stories include: gender in Star Trek; women's ghost stories of the nineteenth century; constructing feminism through folklore; contemporary women's rewriting of folk and fairy tales generally classified as fantasy; Marion Zimmer Bradley's Lady of Avalon; Octavia Butler; Marge Piercy's Body of Glass; ecofeminism and menstrual reclamation; afrocentric womanist sf; facing nightmares of previous victimization; paranormal possibilities in women's sf; trickster aesthetic in women's ethnic and world literature. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:13:43 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG: Ammonite discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Monday, March 2 (tomorrow as I write this) begins our discussion of Nicola Griffith's book Ammonite. Please include the letters BDG in the subject line for all book discussion group-related messages. I'd like to reiterate that the discussion takes place on the main list, so you should be sure to follow the rules covering all list discussion (and email in general, really). Try to avoid responses offering nothing more that "yeah, I agree". Try to avoid quoting the entire message you're responding to - just include the relevant bits. Before you respond to someone, think a moment about whether a public response is appropriate, or if perhaps you're better off responding directly to that person via email. And be polite, please. If you're not sure if you're being polite or not, wait an hour or two before actually sending the note. Some people expressed concern that this may cause list traffic to get unbearably high. I opted to try running the discussion on the main list at first, so that more people can join in. However, if it gets to be too much for those not interested in the discussion, we can move the discussion to a separate list. So I ask you to please bear with us during this first round. Let me know if you feel strongly about this - send email to me directly (jkrauel@actioneer.com) and I'll let you and the list know what kind of response there is. We're very lucky to have Nicola in this group with us. I hope that her presence enhances rather than hinders our discussion, and I asked her specifically how she felt about our discussing her work. While she'll be quite interested in our discussion, she plans to not respond to your comments unless specifically asked to. She also asks, quite reasonably, that you back up your comments with specifics, and avoid getting personal. You should also be getting (or dusting off) your copy of Vonda McIntyre's Dreamsnake, for next month's discussion. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:24:08 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG: Ammonite discussion begins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "A self-assured, unselfconscious, convincing depiction of a world without men--doing what only SF can do, and doing it with skill and brio.... It answers the question 'When you eliminate one gender, what's left?' (a whole world, is the answer)." - Ursula K. Le Guin Welcome to our first book group discussion: Nicola Griffith's Ammonite. I confess right off the bat to having really enjoyed this book. Since I'm starting this, here's why: - A whole book with no men, so subtly done you don't even realize it for awhile - A great adventure story. I really like adventure stories. - A strong, independent female lead character: Marghe Taishan That's my completely un-academic and three-inch-deep analysis of why I think Ammonite's great. For more depth, I found a review by someone else: Gwyneth Jones' review, which I encourage you to find at http://gopher.well.sf.ca.us:70/0/Publications/authors/gwyn/jones.ammonite Jones explains that the way Griffith is able to make the lack of men such a non-issue is by populating the world (Jeep) with women who are *whole people*. I thought that was a pretty good way of explaining how such a big thing could end up almost as a non-issue. In fact, while re-reading the last few chapters, I see that one character tells Marghe that she's changed, she seems *whole* - the journey that she follows over the course of the book is paralled with her internal journey toward her whole self. Jones also compares Ammonite to Tepper's Raising the Stones, as both deal with a "virus" or disease that could be considered a horrible plague (on Jeep, it kills every man on the planet), or a transformation into something better than human. When Marghe finally gives in to the virus, she gains incredible power over her own body. In fact, it's the virus that enables the women to have children as well. Here's a brainstorm of questions to get you started. What did the mysterious, probably intelligent creatures represent? The goth I think they were called. Were the goth supposed to have created the standing stones? Or were the Echraidhe? What did the stones represent? Where did the virus come from? Why? What does the power it confers represent for women? Could such a virus work on men, and if so how? If the bad guys come back, as is intimated at the end of the book, do you think will they be able to eradicate the virus? Does Griffith leave us enough hope that this fledgeling new society, tribes merged with technologists, will be able to survive? What do you think happened? What other themes did you find in the book. I'm sure I've missed many, or mis-interpreted them. What did you like best in the book? Characters, places, ideas, entire passages. What disappointed you? What opportunities do you think Griffith missed in telling this story? Why do you think she didn't include them? Griffith gave us a fairly well-realized world with interesting cultures and characters. What in particular stood out for you as an example of how she made it so vivid? Do you think that Marghe's internal conflict was played just right, underplayed, or overplayed? What would you like to have changed in the book? What parallels do you see between this book and Slow River? Any ideas more fully developed there? That ought to be enough to get you started. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:11:40 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Karin Boye: Kallocain In-Reply-To: <181B8E17CA5@iers1.ier.uni-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Today I did what perhaps I should have done before I bothered the list about Karin Boye, I made a search on the net for _Kallocain_. Perhaps some of you are interested in the results. Besides some homepages in Swedish I found the homepage of the Karin Boye Society in Sweden: http://www.ivo.se/kboye/home-english.html It is partially translated into English. From that homepage I've learnt that besides her poetry Karin Boye has written 5 novels and 2 short stories, her poetry and _Kallocain_ are seen as her masterpieces. The homepage contains English translations of about 40 of Boye's poems. Apparently, Boye is well-known in Sweden, at least there are 6 memorials there, among others her birth place, the site of her death and 2 statues. Kallocain was translated into English, French, German, Norwegian, Danish, Czech and Hungarian. There is a chronology of her life (1900-1941), but unfortunately, the more 'meaty' contributions, articles on her work and her life, are all in Swedish. Beside that, I found a homepage by David McDuff, who translated several of Karin Boye's poems into English: http://www.halldor.demon.co.uk/boyepage.htm/ On http://www.halldor.demon.co.uk/boyeintro.htm he gives a short biography of Karin Boye, including excerpts from her letters. According to this biography, Boye discovered in her early twenties that she was sexually interested in women. This realisation caused a personal crisis, which is reflected in her poetry. The next 10-20 years Boye became interested in psychoanalysis and social issues. She was married for a short time but emotionally more important were 2-3 women. 1931 she had a severe depression, with suicidal phases. There is more of her life, I browsed only briefly throught the text. McDuff says about Kallocain: "Kallocain, a strange, nightmarish novel of cells and staircases and corridors, is open to several interpretations. On one level, it may be read as a political satire in the tradition of Zamyatin's We or Huxley's Brave New World: it concerns events within a World State of the future, which resembles both the Third Reich of the Nazis and the Soviet Union of Stalin. A central role is played by a truth serum ('Kallocain') invented by Leo Kall, a worker in a state chemical plant, who seeks to overthrow the state and the lies with which it has indoctrinated humanity. On another level, however, the novel may be read as a meditation on inwardness and confession, or 'breaking-open'. It contains many passages of extreme power and evocativeness, underscored by the eerie presence of wartime Sweden, with its military personnel on the streets, its whispered conversations held in fear of being overheard. When it appeared in the autumn of 1940, Kallocain met with enthusiastic reviews. Artur Lundkvist declared that it was in 'the international class', while another critic called it 'a thoroughly thought-through, thoroughly felt, one might even say thoroughly suffered work of art.' " So much on Karin Boye. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:18:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf In-Reply-To: <199803011620.LAA25843@pip1.pipcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It was originally published in Playboy in the November, 1969 issue. As of >1979, it had already been anthologized 19 times, including in Le Guin's own >collection of her short stories, The Wind's Twelve Quarters. > >Le Guin tells a very funny story about being coerced into allowing it to >appear in Playboy with only her initials on the by-line, as Playboy's >editors did not want to shock their readers with a woman writer (I guess >the only appropriate position for women appearing in Playboy was on her >back!). She spends some time in one of her essays speculating on what the >initials "U.K." might stand for . . . and comes to the conclusion that she >fancies "Ulysses Kingfisher" Le Guin. A slight correction: it was the first piece of _fiction_ by a woman to appear in Playboy. They'd published women writers (including, for instance, Germaine Greer) of essays and other things. Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:40:44 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: [Fwd: BDG: Finding Dreamsnake] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B380AD93316DBD2F11956510" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B380AD93316DBD2F11956510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------B380AD93316DBD2F11956510 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from glinda.oz.net ([208.154.100.6]) by mail.actioneer.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA236 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:56:44 -0800 Received: from sense-sea-pm7-17.oz.net (sense-sea-pm7-17.oz.net [208.154.96.209]) by glinda.oz.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA14648 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: vonda@oz.net (Vonda N. McIntyre) To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ammonite discussion Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:57:18 GMT Message-ID: <350165e3.122318466@mail.oz.net> References: <34FA4E17.46757CF1@actioneer.com> In-Reply-To: <34FA4E17.46757CF1@actioneer.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have trouble finding Dreamsnake, get in touch with Maryelizabeth of Mysterious Galaxy Bookstore http://www.mystgalaxy.com/, or with me directly, because Bantam has destroyed all the remaining copies. Vonda On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:13:43 -0800, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > >... >You should also be getting (or dusting off) your copy of Vonda >McIntyre's Dreamsnake, for next month's discussion. > ***** http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda --------------B380AD93316DBD2F11956510-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:34:21 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite discussion begins] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8DC5038595CAF0E9CBBF3E2D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8DC5038595CAF0E9CBBF3E2D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------8DC5038595CAF0E9CBBF3E2D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from imo23.mail.aol.com ([198.81.19.151]) by mail.actioneer.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA212 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:29:41 -0800 Received: from IldikoPaul@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id WZPCa05359 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:27:12 -0500 (EST) From: IldikoPaul Message-ID: <98e01e29.34fb2432@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:27:12 EST To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ammonite discussion begins Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 In a message dated 98-03-02 02:31:18 EST, you write: << Were the goth supposed to have created the standing stones? Or were the Echraidhe? What did the stones represent? >> Definately the Goth, during the scene where Marghe first experiences Thenike telling a story with her drums she follows along in her trance and there sees the Goth erecting the stones. Which leads me to wonder if the viajera are descendents of the Goths? They access memories from their ancestors, or did the virus come from the Goths and pass on the legacy of their shared memories as well? Hmm, i wonder... any takers? ildiko --------------8DC5038595CAF0E9CBBF3E2D-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:33:20 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: BDG -- First Cut at Ammonite: A Man's POV Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Before any criticisms, let me say for Nicola's benefit that I LOVED her book. As always happens when I read a book written by such a bright, insightful writer, I found myself falling into spiritual love with her. (Not to worry. I'm no star stalker. :-) Just wanted to say thank you for a wonderful story. In a message dated 98-03-02 02:31:18 EST, you write: > What did the mysterious, probably intelligent creatures represent? The > goth I think they were called. That was one point that left me wondering after I'd completed the book. I think they might have been there to add to the sense that the supernatural was possible, but my orderly -- OK anal retentive -- mind wanted a tidy explanation delivered before the book ended. > Were the goth supposed to have created the standing stones? Or were the > Echraidhe? What did the stones represent? If the song sung by Thenike can be believed, then yes, the Goth built the Stonehenge analog. To me, the sacred, singing stones represented magic, or perhaps more properly, being attuned to supernatural forces. Since Stonehenge seems to be a enormous clock/calendar, perhaps the megaliths remind us that Jeep runs on a pervasive set of time constants, and that successful life forms on GP conform to these times and seasons. > Where did the virus come from? Why? What does the power it confers > represent for women? Could such a virus work on men, and if so how? One could only guess at the source of the virus. I didn't see any direct answer to that question. Griffith hinted that, perhaps, the Goth had brought it with them when they settled the planet. Deliberately, or just as a hanger- on? Perhaps, when explored, the CD-ROM-like discs found at Ollfoss will tell more. Material for a sequel? > If the bad guys come back, as is intimated at the end of the book, do > you think will they be able to eradicate the virus? The future certainly looked less than promising for the new settlers, as well as for the indigenous people of Jeep. Yet much can happen. News of the destruction of the orbiting platform by Company, and the concomitant loss of life, might leak out somehow and sway public opinion on earth -- just in the nick of time, of course. SEC might establish the upper hand. Those on the planet might build a connection with the Goth and learn secrets powerful enough to prepare them for Company's next rape-and-pillage mission. Who knows? > Does Griffith leave > us enough hope that this fledgeling new society, tribes merged with > technologists, will be able to survive? What do you think happened? Life, with its amazing ability to adapt, will often survive in the most improbable of surroundings. Boiling, acidic water from undersea volcanic fumaroles. The frigid wastes of Antarctica. Yes. The book left me with enough hope that the Mirrors could integrate themselves into the native population. The Echradie could learn and adapt. Bring in fresh genes to bolster their breeding. There would be a great deal for the Mirrors to learn. How to reproduce by trancing. Local customs. Agriculture as appropriate to Jeep. How to defend themselves against Company's insatiable lust for more exploitable resources. But the picture isn't so bleak that we should abandon hope. > What other themes did you find in the book. I'm sure I've missed many, > or mis-interpreted them. What did you like best in the book? I'll leave other themes to others on the list. Your intro, the theme of a fascinating world peopled by women so complete one hardly notices the absence of men (some probably celebrated the absence of men) seems good. I liked the depth of science and knowledge included. The reproductive parts of flowers. How sail boats are built to avoid hogging. The fact that Marghe can't hear her footfalls while in a vacuum. Way too many space operas fail in that they tell us the sound heard from distant events in the vacuum of space. Nicola Griffith is either a fountainhead of collected details or she researched a wide range of topics as she wrote. > Characters, places, ideas, entire passages. I liked Griffith's ability to personalize some of the less central characters without bogging the story down in useless detail. Dr. Sara Hiram is made real and evokes my sympathy. Not only Danner, but the staff she draws around her when she finally breaks through her wall of isolation, all these people are made flesh-and-blood. We get to know their strengths and their weaknesses. We share their needs and dreams. I think that without this level of characterization, some readers might end up not caring whether or not the collected people of Jeep can remedy their problems and survive. > Do you think that Marghe's internal conflict was played just right, > underplayed, or overplayed? I don't think we can hold a writer to task for that. They must meet the needs of their audience, or they won't be published. I'm one of those earth dwellers cursed with XY chromosomes, and that genetic trait makes me sometimes impatient with characters that drift too far into angst. However, from my male viewpoint, given all that was going on in Marghe's life, I would have found her less than human had she not felt some internal conflict. I'd say it was handled very well. Things I wondered: 1. Why is Jeep, with an environment so different from earth, populated by flora and fauna not that dissimilar from those of earth? Perhaps that's due to influences brought to the planet by the early settlers from earth. Perhaps a sequel will shed more light. 2. Why couldn't Company simply inform the expedition that, due to the risk of spread of the virus, they were to be quarantined on Jeep till a remedy could be found? I'm looking forward to the thoughts of all you other bright, observant people on the list. Thanks, again, Nicola Griffith, for a fine piece of fiction. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:19:38 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: BDG: Ammonite Content-Type: text/plain >For more depth, I found a review by someone else: Gwyneth Jones' >review, >which I encourage you to find at >http://gopher.well.sf.ca.us:70/0/Publications/authors/gwyn/jones.a>mmonite Good review, also points out a few of the plot holes. > What did you like best in the book? >Characters, places, ideas, entire passages. I liked very much the descriptions of life and nature on Jeep (although it seemed to me that Marghe should have died in the snowstorm), the marvelously detailed world of the tribes of Jeep. The character of the Mirror's commander, one of the few positive portraits of a military person in feminist SF (as opposed to amazonian fantasy). I especially liked the way the horse tribes of the steppe were believably savage, and not at all utopian. These characters were a lot closer to the real thing than the usual romantic picture of the Noble Savage. >What disappointed you? What opportunities do you think Griffith >missed in telling this story? Why do you think she didn't include >them? I had two big problems with Ammonite: 1) there was something of a "space fantasy" feeling to the part of the book set on Jeep -- I think this resulted from the combo of earthlike elements (Celtic names, Mongol lifestyle, terrestrial lifeforms) on the planet, and also what one person on USENET referred to as the "startlingly convenient" properties of the Jeep virus. The single virus killing men, conferring the ability to mess with your lover's genes, tap into ancestral memories, and sensitivity to electromagnetic radiation was a little too much for me to swallow. 2)I didn't have a problem with the idea of a planet full of women, but I thought there was something a little dodgy about the way it was set up. The scene at the beginning, where the medic doesn't even look at the sexual orientation of someone who may spend the rest of her life quarantines away from men, put me off a bit. Then, when she is down on the planet, the Mirrors do not seem to mourn, or miss, the male half of the group which was killed by the virus. This seemed like a bit of whitewashing to me, and I found it chilling (after all, I'd like to think someone would miss me if a virus killed me and all the other men on Earth). I wondered if a more realistic treatment of the emotional impact of the virus would have spoiled the quasi- utopian mood Griffith was trying to establish. >What parallels do you see between this book and Slow River? Any >ideas more fully developed there? Well, I saw some of the same "good-natured marginalization" of men in Slow River, most notably in the sex scene part way through that book where the husband falls asleep while the wife gets excited. Not bloody likely. (Disclaimer: he may just be pretending to be asleep, Griffith specifically mentions that possibility) >That ought to be enough to get you started. > >Jennifer >jkrauel@actioneer.com >book discussion group coordinator Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:43:42 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Requesting an Interview from Editors Comments: To: iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu, lois-bujold@herald.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi--if you are or have been an editor (in any branch of publishing--fiction, nonfiction, university or general press) and would be willing to answer a few questions for a student who has an assignment to interview someone who has the job she wishes to have in the future, could you email Heather at: "Heatherm@boisdarc.tamu-commerce.edu" and volunteer? She is doing an assignment for her technical writing class, and would appreciate the chance to "talk" to you briefly about what your job entails/entailed. Thank you! Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:26:42 -0600 Reply-To: Stacey Holbrook Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite discussion begins In-Reply-To: <34FA5E97.1B16010C@actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: (snip) > What did the mysterious, probably intelligent creatures represent? The > goth I think they were called. The goth seemed to be the native sentient beings of the planet. It seems like they had some sort of advanced culture until some kind of ice age or natural disaster. It wasn't very clear. I kept getting a sense that the goth were somehow responsible for the virus. > Were the goth supposed to have created the standing stones? Or were the > Echraidhe? What did the stones represent? The goth erected the stones. Thenike's song told of the goth using them for some ceremonial purpose similar to Stonehenge. (snip) > If the bad guys come back, as is intimated at the end of the book, do > you think will they be able to eradicate the virus? Does Griffith leave > us enough hope that this fledgeling new society, tribes merged with > technologists, will be able to survive? What do you think happened? It's possible that they might be able to destroy the virus but the Company was given false information that the FN-17 (the vaccine) didn't work. This could lead to some false conclusions about the virus by scientists working on a cure. The Company will probably attempt to come back but it seems like Marghe and Danner will attempt to prepare their people for any hostilities. > What other themes did you find in the book. I'm sure I've missed many, > or mis-interpreted them. What did you like best in the book? I enjoyed the descriptions of the native flora and fauna. There was just enough to give an alien feeling without turning into a travelogue. I liked the different societies of each group. I liked that the adventure didn't take a back seat to examining the social repercussions of having all female societies. What I especially liked was that the women were not all perfect and the societies were not completely utopian. For example, one woman attempts to cheat an inn keeper. She ends up losing her job in a place far from her kin. The implication is that she will have to struggle to survive far from anyone who will help her. There is also the fact that there is no real help for anyone suffering mental illness (at least two characters had some kind of mental imbalance). > What disappointed you? What opportunities do you think Griffith missed > in telling this story? Why do you think she didn't include them? The final "battle" was settled too quickly and easily considering all the harm that had been done. > Griffith gave us a fairly well-realized world with interesting cultures > and characters. What in particular stood out for you as an example of > how she made it so vivid? When Marghe wakes up the first morning after camping out, she sees a "spiderweb" that is actually a living creature. There were other little moments that made the background vivid. (snip) > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > book discussion group coordinator > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:52:17 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite Comments: To: Daniel Krashin In-Reply-To: <19980303181939.25419.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Daniel Krashin wrote: (snip) > Then, when she is down on the planet, the Mirrors do not seem to mourn, > or miss, the male half of the group which was killed by the virus. This > seemed like a bit of whitewashing to me, and I found it chilling (after > all, I'd like to think someone would miss me if a virus killed me and > all the other men on Earth). I wondered if a more realistic treatment > of the emotional impact of the virus would have spoiled the quasi- > utopian mood Griffith was trying to establish. At the beginning of the book, the male Mirrors and quite a few female ones had been dead for about five years. Most of the survivors would have already gone through a mourning period. There is a section where Danner contemplates the fact that she had been promoted by several grades to commander because all of her superiors had died. There was also some mention that the Mirrors had had to make some difficult social adjustments due the lack of men but this is only a slight reference. It probably would have slowed the plot down some but I would have been interested in finding out how the heterosexual women managed to adjust to not having male companionship. I also wondered if Marghe was lesbian to start with because no mention of her sexual orientation is made until she partners with Thenike. Most of the flashbacks involve her parents and she doesn't seem to have had a sex life at all before arriving on GP. > Dan Krashin > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:13:01 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What an enjoyable book this is. What a fine hero was Marghe with her unending courage and fortitude. I loved the fact that she and Thenike made their long journey and saved the world while pregnant. I was so disappointed that we, unlike Letitia and Lu W ai, were not invited to the births. Yes, I think the Goths built the stone calendar (based on the length of gestation, right?) How interesting that the Goth who was killed, passively hooting, was a male. Are they like the sandworms of Dune, holding all the secrets? If they are the cause of the virus, why didn't it kill their males? There was blood shed, but most break throughs, from the interrogation of the traitor to the victory of the Death Spirit came through communication. The women didn't fight against nature they adapted and worked with it. These were practical people, expec ting payment for services, expecting to work for their living, and knowing the value of children in not only continuing the race but in educating its members. They balanced the value of change with the honoring of tradition. Feminism at its best. Thank you, Nicola. Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:09:40 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Kirschling Subject: [FSFFU] BDG discussion of ammonite Comments: cc: kumasong@mailexcite.com Content-Type: text/plain reading the gwyneth jones review, i liked what she said about the absence of the men also creating an absence of women; i thought that was an interesting interpretation of the situation, although i saw it more as the presence of strong character and humanity in the women. in this book they took on the responsibilities, challenges and cultural roles that another author might have assigned to men, but i don't know if one could substitute men here and have the same story. gender does cease to be an issue when there is and has been only one (in the beginning the men have been gone 5 years), but we on earth have to really be able to tune out the male supremacy of the world around us for this to become "normal". when what is "female" becomes what is"human", do the women disappear? hmmm... anyway, the strength and personhood of the characters - major and minor - is to me an outstanding part of this book. karen k. (greetings to all.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:44:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > If they are the cause of the virus, why didn't it kill their males? If the virus was tailored, why would you design it to kill the males? They certainly don't seem to be aggressive/dominant/oppressive. Just an off-the-wall thought. Perhaps the virus was a form of defense to which some human women have a natural resistance? What if its allowance of human reproduction was not a designed part of the virus, but a side-effect? Another question, though--why is the virus toxic to many women as well (perhaps partially answered above)? I forget the figures, but I seem to recall that the death rate for women was pretty high, too. -allen -- Allen Briggs - end killing - briggs@macbsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:06:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite discussion begins Comments: To: Stacey Holbrook In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I noticed we've just started reading AMMONITE and we're already jumping ahead to the end. In the two other reading lists I'm on, we take it a few chapters at a time and discuss them in depth, which may be a very profitable way to tackle a novel as rich as AMMONITE. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:24:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: BDG: Ammonite: shell games Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rereading Ammonite was *such* a pleasure... **Ammonite--so many meanings to that word. Griffith gives us the image of a fossilized shell, no longer full of "wet, moist life" sinking into Marghe's hand, fulfilling her in her dream, making her whole. The fossil is interesting in that it is coiled (like most shells) into a round shape, but also has a long point extending from it, blending both female and male symbols into one. **Ammon, the Egyptian equivalent of the Roman Jupiter or the Greek Zeus, is represented with ram horns; rams are traditionally known for the extravagance of their rut. **Amun (Marghe Amun, her chosen deeptrance name) may mean "the complete one"--but it is reminiscent of Ammon, leader of the Ammonites, youngest son of the incestuous rape of Lot by his daughters. All in all, a very tangled etymological background that brings much richness to the questions of the book. The women of Jeep (who have lived there without males for far longer than just 5 years--more like 200, considering no-one has a grandma who remembers the days when men were just as commonplace as male taars or goths) have tangled their genes and their procreative abilities so that they are fully independant. Much of the imagery behind the word "ammonite" suggests a merging of male/female traits. The society of Jeep is not a penetration, but an interpenetration -- not only on the sexual level, but also in the way in which the women have colonized the planet, seeking to find ways in which to blend with the earth, with its rythms, with its pulse. But I think the main question of the book lies not in "what happens to a world in which men disappear", but, "how do you deal with betrayal"; I think the key image is again the ammonite, the fossilized remnants of life, Thenike's carving hung 'round Marghe's neck, the function of collective memories, the viajera role the two of them play. But, I have to run for now... Anyone care to pick up that knot? (Also: is the shape of the writing like an ammonite? A main thrust, but coiled in on itself in the description of different compartments of societies... but maybe I'm reaching here). Heather =) hmaclean@kent.edu Reality is only a question of language. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:32:29 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite discussion begins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I confess right off the bat to having really enjoyed this book. Since > I'm starting this, here's why: > > - A whole book with no men, so subtly done you don't even realize it > for awhile No active male characters, true. Still, I felt the presence of men often (not so much when the story focused on Marghe and her doings, but when Danner and Sue discussed Company and the Kurst and what might happen). The threat posed by the Kurst and the capitalistic frenzy of Company felt "male" to me. I realize that Mirrors included men and women. Judging by Marghe's reaction to the Mirrors on Jeep, I am guessing that gender did not have much meaning in that organization--she did not think for a second that a female Mirror was any less of a threat. Company is probably the same. So why do I feel these threatening "characters" as male? Probably just my experience resulting in my own perspective. Still, I greatly enjoyed women just being people. Restful. Gender "issues" dealt with by not being an issue. :) > - A strong, independent female lead character: Marghe Taishan Yeah. I liked Marghe. She was believable. I don't exactly understand why she had to run off the minute she got there, but it sure drove the story I understand that she only had 6 months, but, like Danner said, Marghe's official mission was to ascertain if the vaccine worked. I guess I was not totally convinced by Danner's reasons for supporting Marghe's personal mission of discovering the origin of Jeep's human inhabitants. If the Mirror's were truly stuck on Jeep, she'd have all the time in the world to find the human origins, and possibly a "cure." Still, it was Marghe's determination and curiosity which created this adventure. _Ammonite_ was a very good read. I didn't ever find myself backtracking for facts, which indicates careful crafting of characters and the story line. Griffith created characters with depth and provided rich, sensory details about the environment. Someone mentioned in another email that the descriptions were complete without sounding like a travelogue. I agree. Details such as the hollow grass, the trees used by the women of Singing Pastures for lodging. . .There was so much description of Jeep that I skimmed through to see why it didn't jar the pace. I think that interaction between Marghe and her environment anchored me into the descriptions of Jeep. They weren't always separate. I'm glad that this book was on the BDG list. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:59:42 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: BDG: Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, One of the aspects of _Ammonite_ that both drew me into Marghe's character and kept me separate is her occupation with listening to and controlling her body. Passages in which she is meditating seemed to draw me into her world and body. During passages such as during the snowstorm (when she was consciously directing blood flow), I felt more like an observer. Her control is admirable. I found myself wishing to be so skilled with my body. In fact, I think I envy Marghe's general enjoyment of and ability to really live in her body. I was well able to identify with Marghe's concerted effort to gain such extensive somatic control after having her face (and body?) bashed in by a Mirror during a Company sanctioned beating. hmmm.... which makes me wonder if I would have enjoyed these skills of hers so had she not gained them to offset the trauma... I hope so. Well, looking at body and control as a theme, Marghe travels a long road. She loses control of her life/body before this story begins, inspiring her to gain compensatory (plus!) skills. She walks back to "Company" and agrees to allow them to use her body to test the Jeep vaccine (which she sees as using them while they are using her). Control is taken away again when she is captured. She gains survival skills. After nearly losing her life in the blizzard, she is again not in control of her body. However, kind people care for her and help her recover. She loses a couple fingers, spends a lot of time in bed, but gains a lover, friends and family. She chooses to open her body to the virus, and it seems she survives because she didn't fight it (in addition to Thenike's intervention and the preparation). Again, she spends a lot of time in bed being cared for by others. Because she has such a detailed understanding of her body, she is able to become a viajera, which fits her well. She is also able to help Thenike begin gestating a child. One of the things I really liked was that Marghe had a choice whether or not to continue her own pregnancy because of her knowledge and control of her body. She could end the pregnancy without assistance from others and without any damage to her own body. An excellent example of true reproductive choice. Marghe's choice of continuing her pregnancy seems like the ultimate giving away of control of her body. It's a choice, though, so it feels to me as if this indicates Marghe's growth as a human. An aside--I liked how the loss of the fingers was dealt with. Marghe mourns, but she is alive. Also, despite the relatively long time Marghe spends in bed with injury and illness, as well as in convalesce, there is no doubt that she is a strong character. I really like this aspect. Oh, I like this book. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:34:00 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I didn't get the mail for March 2nd (I get it digest form), and I didn't get the message(s?) that was/were responded to on the 3rd. If anyone has it, could they forward it to me? >Then, when >she is down on the planet, the Mirrors do not seem to mourn, or >miss, the male half of the group which was killed by the virus. This >seemed like a bit of whitewashing to me, and I found it chilling (after >all, I'd like to think someone would miss me if a virus killed me and >all the other men on Earth). I actually found this to be something of a relief. It might also be whitewashing, but it meant that the women on the planet could really exist alone, rather than in relation to all of the absent men. I've read plenty of books about all-female groups in which the absence of men is as powerful a force as their presence would be. I thought it was *wonderful* to see a society made up of women that wasn't intensely political (typically defined by the absence if men) or catastrophic (permanently damaged by the absence of men) or temporary (doomed by etc etc etc). To me, the portrayal of an all-female society, with no sex-bound roles, no portion of their lives defined as not-what-men-do or what-we-can-do-without-men was amazingly refreshing. A literary trick, maybe, and unrealistic; but for one book, I don't mind at all. Men live complete within themselves all the time. I get called Mrs. whenever I go grocery shopping with a man (any man); I get asked for the head of household when I answer the phone (I'm the only wage-earner). It's very hard for a woman to be herself without being asked whose wife, sister, daughter, mother, or other dependant she is. >would have spoiled the quasi- >utopian mood Griffith was trying to establish. Could you (or anyone else) say a little more about this? I thought of this book as utopian for a while just because it featured a situation that doesn't occur in nature, perpetuated by A Magical Virus. But if men had been added (and, for instance, the ancestral memories, genetic manipulation and sensitivity to EM radiation had been kept the same) it would just have been science fiction. What makes it utopian? (Having no men is no utopia for me; I have many that I'd miss a whole lot. On the other hand, existing as myself instead of in relation to men is something I fight for everyday, and seems like a very prosaic and pragmatic desire.) jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:03:27 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite discussion begins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-04 09:22:04 EST, you write: << In the two other reading lists I'm on, we take it a few chapters at a time and discuss them in depth, which may be a very profitable way to tackle a novel as rich as AMMONITE. >> sounds good to me--I'm still fairly early in the book, and enjoying it a lot--of course, some comments lead you to look carefully at certain scenes or characters when you do come to them yourself-- barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > >Then, when > >she is down on the planet, the Mirrors do not seem to mourn, or > >miss, the male half of the group which was killed by the virus. This > >seemed like a bit of whitewashing to me, and I found it chilling (after > >all, I'd like to think someone would miss me if a virus killed me and > >all the other men on Earth). I got the impression that the men were mourned, but this group was getting over it - the deaths did occur some time before current events. Besides, this was a rather military/exploratory group, and death is part of the deal. And mourning didn't serve the purposes of the novel. > I've read plenty of > books about all-female groups in which the absence of men is as powerful a > force as their presence would be. Exactly! That's what makes this book so unusual. (Historiosexist note: the earliest book I've seen tackling this theme was "The Last Space Ship ," by Murray Leinster, 1949. He created an interstellar despot who created a planetary ray gun that would kill only men. With all the men dead, the women on any planet were insane with grief and technologically helpless, thus easily conquered. Huh.) I thought it was *wonderful* to see a society > made up of women that wasn't intensely political (typically defined by the > absence if men) or catastrophic (permanently damaged by the absence of men) or > temporary (doomed by etc etc etc). Unfortunately, these women are still prey to religious fanaticism. That's what takes this book out of the "utopian" category, in my opinion .. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail2.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Daniel wrote: >1) there was something of a "space fantasy" feeling to the part of the >book set on Jeep -- I think this resulted from the combo of earthlike >elements (Celtic names, Mongol lifestyle, terrestrial lifeforms) on the >planet, and also what one person on USENET referred to as the >"startlingly convenient" properties of the Jeep virus. It is, however, USENET. ;) >The single virus >killing men, conferring the ability to mess with your lover's genes, tap >into ancestral memories, and sensitivity to electromagnetic radiation >was a little too much for me to swallow. Look closer: the virus also kills the majority of women who land on the planet. A very small percentage survives - perhaps all of the effects the virus has on these women aren't actually effects. I would argue that the virus unlocks something in the genetic code which allows these things to happen. >I wondered if a more realistic treatment >of the emotional impact of the virus would have spoiled the quasi- >utopian mood Griffith was trying to establish. Don't you get the idea they're drained beyond belief - that they can't mourn any longer? You can see that in patients who have survived massive slaughters - eventually they simply block the event and pass over it in their minds. I think the emotional impact was just as it should be... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:53:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite In-Reply-To: <199803050300.WAA25716@mime2.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, DAVID CHRISTENSON wrote: > Exactly! That's what makes this book so unusual. (Historiosexist note: > the earliest book I've seen tackling this theme was "The Last Space Ship > ," by Murray Leinster, 1949. He created an interstellar despot who > created a planetary ray gun that would kill only men. With all the men > dead, the women on any planet were insane with grief and technologically > helpless, thus easily conquered. Huh.) Have any of you ever read Philip Wylie's THE DISAPPEARANCE? All men vanish from one timeline and all women from another. The women get off to a slow start because after WWII they were NOT, by and large, mistresses of technology, but geton their feet they do. The men devolve into war and barbarism so fast their half turns into a Post Toastie. > > Unfortunately, these women are still prey to religious fanaticism. Yes. As others have said, they're human, and a complete spectrum of humanity at that. If you want Utopian, read THE WANDERGROUND.> ... > > -- > David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:28:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nancy E. Larsen" Subject: Query To all - Does anyone know someone who is driving from Minneapolis to Madison the Friday before Wiscon? I need a ride that day. I will help pay for gas. Thanks. Nancy Larsen Minneapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:59:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: BDG discussion of ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- This novel is not utopian, IMO, but that's not a negative criticism. So does it strike us as a deliberate avoidance of utopian/dystopian forms? And as such, is it implicitly saying something more complex about women than those forms could? In the deliberate construction of a woman-only society, should we assume Nicola was not merely exploring human nature (as all literature does) but exploring female nature specifically? Thus I'm intrigued by the mystical aspects in this novel - the connection of body to planet. I wonder if other readers see this put forth as a universal latent aspect of female nature brought out by this planet's virus, or just a product of this planet and this society. And the Goth - should we see the Goth as symbolic, again somehow linked to the theme of the nature of women? They lurk in the background, Moby-Dick -ish, and they're even whale-white. (And why the name "Goth?" Nicola certainly must have been aware of the modern connotations of "goth," particularly to readers of "women's literature.") Hey, I'm no critic. Is anybody with me on this? I'm awfully tempted to believe this all-female society is a canvas for a picture of women's deepest drives and resources - faith, fear, freedom, survival, adventure , etc., whether or not the author intended it as such. But it would also be interesting (not quite as interesting, IMO) to see this as an SF adventure that just happens to exclude men. (And there's certainly room for more such exploration in a sequel.) -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:34:14 +0100 Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: Documentation of matriarchal cultures In-Reply-To: Rudy Leon 's message of Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:27:42 -0500 Trying to catch up with my backlog here... ** Thomas Gramstad >> In any case, here are a couple of books documenting surviving relics >> of ancient matriarchal cultures: >> >> Eisler, Riane ([1987] 1995): The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, >> Our Future. HarperSanFrancisco, CA. >> >> Stone, Merlin (1976): When God was a Woman. Harcourt Brace & >> Company, San Diego, CA. >> >> Stone, Merlin ( [1979] 1990): Ancient Mirrors of Womanhood: A >> Treasury of Goddess and Heroine Lore from Around the World. Beacon >> Press, Boston, MA. >> >> Also, anything by Marija Gimbutas, for example The Language of the >> Goddess (Harper San Francisco 1995, ISBN: 0062512439), or The >> Civilization of the Goddess: The World of Old Europe (HarperCollins >> 1997, ISBN: 0062514504). * Rudy Leon > I have waited to wade in here until reading all the posts, and > since no one has said it, I'll jump on in... I did my senior > thesis on Gimbutas, and Co., which is my pet name for this list > above. The conclusion I came to was that the bibliographies of > all but Gimbutas were almost entirely self- referential, making a > really tight circle of Stone, Gimbutas, Sjoo, Eisler, and a few > original excavation reports from Anatolia and Crete. The > references were so tightly held d in common that I sincerely doubt > that Eisler and Stone ever read J.J. Bachofen, Nicholas Platon > (Crete), or the dude from Catal Hayuk (sorry, his name totally > escapes me at the minute), or any other of constantly appearing > citations. OK, you mention that there are others than "Gimbutas & Comp."; you mention Bachofen, who wrote in the 19th century. Other names are Jane Harrison and Robert Graves (early and mid 20th century). So in other words, theories arguing the existence of matriarchal cultures aren't just some modern, post-feminist invention concocted by a few oddballs, it is a long tradition of alternative interpretation that predates the modern woman- and feminist movements. > ... To bring this back to topicality, my conclusion was that this > coterie was important for providing new ways to think about the > possibilities of the ancient world, that they in fact were writing > highly imaginative fiction, true Science Fiction/Fantasy and if > they were read in this light, and as devotional literature (like > Lives of The Saints) they had enormous use and power. (See, I > told you, I see religion in SF everywhere!) But in no way do they > come close to proving that actual existence of matriarchal > cultures, or even cultures where egalitarianism was the dominant > mode of being. I find Eisler really thought provoking, however, > and think they all write *great* hard Science Fiction ;) This is fine, but the thing is that interpretations originated within and dependent upon an androcentric and/or patriarchal mindset are just as much fiction too, and dull fiction at that. The most valuable aspect of looking into the past is to find new possibilities for our own future, to mend, modify and extend the present culture. For example, recently a posthumous collection of Erich Fromm essays were published (Fromm, Erich (1997): Love, Sexuality and Matriarchy: About Gender, edited by Rainer Funk, Fromm International Publishing Corporation, new York). Fromm read Bachofen early in his life, was convinced of the existence of matriarchal cultures, and this shaped a lot of his thinking and theoretical developments in social psychology. If Bachofen was proven wrong or inconclusive, that would not affect Fromm's theories and insights, which must be evaluated on their own merits. But Fromm might never had had those ideas without Bachofen as a starting point. The possibility of matriarchal cultures isn't just a question of historicity, facts and artifacts, it is a question of transcendence, values and exploring the potentials of human consciousness and culture. Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:51:52 +0100 Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf--David Brin's Glory Season In-Reply-To: Daniel Krashin 's message of Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:15:21 PST Dan Crashin wrote, about Brin's Glory Season: > Also, the book, while exploring themes of gender and power > which are central to feminism, does not subscribe to feminist > politics such as they are -- for example, the main reason men are > kept around on the planet is because the particular male talent > for agression might be needed in case of war. I'm sure that also > did not help. While it is 2 or 3 years since I read it, that's not how I remember it at all. I remember female guards, soldiers, pirates and assassins, all skilled fighters. The profession of the men were sailors and traders, not military. Sailing and trading kept the men at some distance from the power centers in the cities; sailing and trading could have been done by women -- the men's primary societal role was to provide genetic variation (new female "wild seeds", as opposed to the parthenogenetic biotechnology that served to reproduce and maintain the female clone clans); and sexual pleasure as a subordinate aspect of maintaining that genetic variation. Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no ----- >> On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Thomas Gramstad wrote: >>> >>> A somewhat similar story is David Brin's Glory Season. It's set >>> on a planet where female clone clans are the ruling classes, >>> each clan occupying a profession. There is also a small class >>> of men, whose biological role is seasonal mating, in order to >>> maintain some degree of random recombination to maintain a basis >>> for natural selection and evolution. The children of these >>> matings are either males who maintain the male population or >>> they are new females, "wild seeds", females who are not part of >>> a clone clan. These new females are kicked out of their clan >>> when they are 15, and then they have to find their own >>> profession niche and try to get a new clone clan started... The >>> problem is that it's getting harder to find available niches for >>> the female "wild seeds". The main characters of the novel are >>> two one-egged "wild seed" twins, and their struggle and >>> exploration of their world. Further complications occur when >>> this planet is rediscovered by representatives from the Earth >>> federation... It's a good read, Brin is good at thinking >>> through his premises and their consequences and make this >>> society believable. >>> >>> Thomas Gramstad >>> thomasg@ifi.uio.no >> This is a fascinating book, but it's one that feminists tend to >> have mixed reactions to. Some like it, some hate it. Brin has >> always been angry that Glory Season didn't win the Tiptree Award >> for gender-bending fiction (it was a semi-finalist I believe). >> Gwyneth Jones did an amazing hatchet job on the novel in a review >> in SF Eye when it first came out, arguing that the novel wasn't >> really feminist at all. >> >> Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:41:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: BDG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My two cents on Ammonite... The Goth....I could not stop thinking of Big Foot when I read passages on the Goth. In my first couple readings of the book (years ago) skimmed over the desc. because of that...this time I tried to pay attention. I do not see them as mysterious except that they are absent. The story Thenike tells (pgs 206-208) suggests that they were perhaps the original peoples of the planet. They were male and female. They had the skills/spirituality of at minimum the builders of Stonehenge. That the planet experienced what I could only call a glacial period and they were driven to new territories that were too harsh to sustain life (like the Erachaide). And finally when they tried to return to their worship site they were driven away by..."the sky was split by light and thunder.....the black bolt ground and smashed through the trees. there was a great burning and alien smells." I interpreted that scene as the point when "visitors/humans" arrived at Jeep. The stones with the electromagnetic energy may have attracted searchers to that sight. Whatever reason..the mention of alien smells cinched it for me. That was the beginning of the end for the Goth, and apparently the men and many women of that original arrival of "aliens". the fact that by the end of the book there is a foreshadowing of Companies return convicted me moreso that what we are seeing on Jeep are waves of "arrivals" ,"colonizations" or "invasion" as it were with more yet to come. As is suggested "Company" i.e. capitalist interests will return to the resource laden planet. The goths were driven to near complete extinction by the glacial period, but the arrival of "aliens" finished off the work. Do they still exist? I read the hunting story (pg. 275-8) that Leifin tells and I feel almost that she is making it up. We do not see the pelt,and who would know the bones of a goth if no one has really captured one? If the story is true.....it confirms that this is no utopia. Gerrel complains that Leifin hunts too much (pg. 204/5) suggesting that there is a need to kill on Leifins parts. Conquer perhaps in that way "invading peoples" do so well? So that the trapping/killing of the goth especially in such a horrid manner, is about conquering the original peoples, the mystical past, overcoming the powerful other, maybe i am stretching here.... In sum....I see the Goth as the indigenous population that suffered the consequences of colonization and nature. And i sense that the new colonizers ( the MIRORS) will have there own deleterious effect on the existing populations, especially if the Company returns....more black bolts from the sky and alien smells?.....I see no utopia here. And there is so much more to say about this book.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:14:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Documentation of matriarchal cultures Comments: To: Thomas Gramstad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pop anthropologist Marvin Harris mentions that most anthropologists would be overjoyed to find a matriarchal culture or anything else beside the same old, same old. It would make their field work more interesting - and more publishable - and give them a crack at scientific glory. Even if some of them have their heads up their patriarchal como-se-llama, even one or two who think as Harris claims would be enough. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:17:39 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG In-Reply-To: <000a01bd48f4$be6a4ea0$1bae2499@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I noticed that nobody in Leifin's community saw fit to sanction her for killing sentient natives - not even Thenike. Thenike knew they were sentient and had proved it with her song. If the others were at all receptive they'd know it too. But they mildly shook their heads and said it really wasn't a very nice thing to do ... somewhat as if Leifin were guilty of a minor breach of manners. Interesting... Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:36:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf--David Brin's Glory Season In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Thomas Gramstad wrote: > Dan Crashin wrote, about Brin's Glory Season: > > > Also, the book, while exploring themes of gender and power > > which are central to feminism, does not subscribe to feminist > > politics such as they are -- for example, the main reason men are > > kept around on the planet is because the particular male talent > > for agression might be needed in case of war. I'm sure that also > > did not help. > > While it is 2 or 3 years since I read it, that's not how I remember > it at all. I remember female guards, soldiers, pirates and > assassins, all skilled fighters. The profession of the men were > sailors and traders, not military. Sailing and trading kept the men > at some distance from the power centers in the cities; sailing and > trading could have been done by women -- the men's primary societal > role was to provide genetic variation (new female "wild seeds", as > opposed to the parthenogenetic biotechnology that served to > reproduce and maintain the female clone clans); and sexual pleasure > as a subordinate aspect of maintaining that genetic variation. Actually, sexual pleasure has nothing to do with keeping men around. You are right about men's primary role. However, Dan is also right. Brin mentions that the larger, more dangerous (to a certain extent) men were and indeed might still be useful in all-out war. There is no war on there so this aspect is held in check. I know that we are not discussing this book right now, but I can't resist, especially in light of the book we are discussing. I understand the reaction some feminists have towards it. However, I think they are reading it from too much of a feminist/anti-feminist perspective, and Brin isn't given the the benefit of the doubt (which is understandable). I think that Brin came at the whole thing from more of a scientific viewpoint, an exploration of practical parthenogenesis and some possible implications and scientific support for it. I think that it did have good feminist/queer thinking in it. For example, most sex was homosexual (granted we don't see it, but it was) and was as such removed from reproduction and reproductive intercourse (which wasn't sex for pleasure, but more of a commerical enterprise). The main character (who we are obviously supposed to identify with) falls in love with the male diplomat from our-space when whe thinks he is female. When he isn't she can't handle it and eventually lets him leave, retaining friendship but never engaging in sex with him at most thinking about it in an exploratory manner. Brin also pokes fun at some of our silly sexism. (For example, the women insist on the man riding side-saddle because, well, for obvious reasons) While the women are soldiers guards and so on, they do not kill like we do but engage in friendlier combat. It is interesting to note that the men are brutes only during the (relatively) short season that they are sexually active and aggressive. During that time they are kept locked up and generally sperated from society to keep people safe. The society in _Glory_Season_ is one filled with women. Women are it. Men are given some things to do, but the women could handle everything if they wanted to. I suppose some people saw the book as blasting the society, but I did not. I saw a loving touch to the society, a careful crafting and texturing, an inclusion of the harsh edges to make a realistic and beautiful whole. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:27:44 -0800 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf--David Brin's Glory Season MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel VanLaven wrote: > snip. > I know that we are not discussing this book right now, but I > can't resist, especially in light of the book we are discussing. Why not discuss _Glory Season_? It seems completely on topic to me. If you're referring to the Book Group Discussion of _Ammonite_, that is something that is occurring in addition to the regular list discussion of feminist sci-fi, not as a limitation about what is to be discussed on list. I think the _Glory Season_ thread is great. I've been following it because I'm considering whether or not to invest any time in Brin at this point in my reading career. :) Thanks, Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:54:49 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Okay, so I'm a little behind in my reading, but I was just perusing the Spring Big Book issue of PW and found Nicola Griffith, author of _The Blue Place_, coming from Avon in July, listed under the First Fiction section. Huh? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:17:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Documentation of matriarchal cultures In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thomas-- this is precisely what I was trying to say. hence, inspirational literature, science fiction, trying to create the future.... where did you disagree/misunderstand what I was saying? This isn't to take you to task, its just that lately lots and lots of folk seem to be misunderstanding me. At 08:34 AM 3/6/98 +0100, you wrote: >Trying to catch up with my backlog here... > The possibility of matriarchal cultures isn't just a >question of historicity, facts and artifacts, it is a question of >transcendence, values and exploring the potentials of human >consciousness and culture. > >Thomas Gramstad >thomasg@ifi.uio.no > > Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:18:08 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NicolaZ Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Whoa! "First Fiction"?? Wonder what's up? Hmmn, maybe it's because it's my first non-sf book? Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:43:48 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola In-Reply-To: <8ae86168.35002fd2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, NicolaZ wrote: > Whoa! "First Fiction"?? Wonder what's up? Hmmn, maybe it's because it's my > first non-sf book? > > Nicola > Yes, that's probably it. I've noticed on several occasions that when an sf writer publishes a non-sf book it gets listed as a first novel. It happened to Greg Benford, I think, when he wrote his first "thriller" and to others. This may be because PW keeps records of genre publications quite literally in different files than records of mainstream fiction, so when the editor goes to look what came before, there's no record and, if the editor isn't familiar with the author's genre work, they don't think to look in SF or mystery or romance. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:03:49 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NicolaZ Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-06 15:48:20 EST, Mike wrote: << I've noticed on several occasions that when an sf writer publishes a non-sf book it gets listed as a first novel. It happened to Greg Benford, I think, when he wrote his first "thriller" and to others. This may be because PW keeps records of genre publications quite literally in different files than records of mainstream fiction, so when the editor goes to look what came before, there's no record and, if the editor isn't familiar with the author's genre work, they don't think to look in SF or mystery or romance >> This might actually work to my advantage if book chains follow PW's lead. Hardcover sales of SLOW RIVER were abominable (trade paper is pretty good, though). Seeing as many bookshops tend to order based on previous sales, I've been worrying that orders for THE BLUE PLACE would be, ah, less than spectacular. We shall see.... Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:43:55 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola In-Reply-To: <3565f666.350072c7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, NicolaZ wrote: > > This might actually work to my advantage if book chains follow PW's lead. > Hardcover sales of SLOW RIVER were abominable (trade paper is pretty good, > though). The problem is that so many publishers are putting out science fiction - and murder mysteries - in hardback, and if those don't sell, they bag the paperback. Yet it seems to me the paperbacks sell for one good reason .... us fans no tenemos el dinero! No $$$$!> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:01:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Pat wrote: > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, NicolaZ wrote: > > > > > This might actually work to my advantage if book chains follow PW's lead. > > Hardcover sales of SLOW RIVER were abominable (trade paper is pretty good, > > though). > > The problem is that so many publishers are putting out science > fiction - and murder mysteries - in hardback, and if those don't sell, > they bag the paperback. Yet it seems to me the paperbacks sell for one > good reason .... us fans no tenemos el dinero! No $$$$!> > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > Or alternately, they're putting out a hard cover and then a $13 trade paperback, but no mass market paperback. Tor has done this with a lot of very good novels in the last few years, for ex. Eleanor Arnason's Ring of Swords, and excellent novels by Sage Walker, Raphael Carter, Shariann Lewitt, etc. Basically they figure that when it comes to more literary sf, those who are interested will spend the $12-$15 for the trade pb. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:19:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: 1997 Tiptree winners >From Karen Joy Fowler: The Tiptree jury has brought in their verdict for 1997. They chose to split the award into a novel-length and a shorter than. The novel chosen was Candas Dorsey's BLACK WINE. The shorter award went to Kelly Link for "Travels With The Snow Queen." The short list is still in the process of annotation, but consists of: (short stories) Storm Constantine, "The Oracle Lips" Paul Di Filippo, "Alice, Alfie, Ted and the Aliens" Timmel L. Duchamp, "The Apprenticeship of Isabetta, etc." Gwyneth Jones, "Balinese Dancer" Salman Rushdie, "The Firebird's Nest" (novels) Emma Donoghue, _Kissing the Witch_ Molly Gloss, _The Dazzle of Day_ M. John Harrison, _Signs of Life_ Ian McDonald, _Sacrifice of Fools_ Vonda N. McIntyre, _The Moon and the Sun_ Shani Mootoo, _Cereus Blooms at Night_ Paul Witcover, _Waking Beauty_ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Or alternately, they're putting out a hard cover and then a $13 >trade paperback, but no mass market paperback. Tor has done this with a >lot of very good novels in the last few years, for ex. Eleanor Arnason's >Ring of Swords, and excellent novels by Sage Walker, Raphael Carter, >Shariann Lewitt, etc. Basically they figure that when it comes to more >literary sf, those who are interested will spend the $12-$15 for the >trade pb. > >Mike Levy In my case at least, they are quite wrong! I spend a small fortune on my academic books. I'll spend 5 or 6 or 7 dollars on a really promising, known author, entertainment reading book, but there is really *no way* I have the money to spend 13 bucks on an author I've never heard of. And I would have to be in a really strong impulse buying mode to spend it on someone I really liked. Which I did for Slow River btw.. I really miss mass-market paperbacks. I like owning the books, and as much as I like supporting the local library system, I'd rather buy the book.... > > Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: BDG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Jennifer Krauel >Subject: BDG: Ammonite discussion >Where did the virus come from? Why?........ If the bad guys come back, as is intimated at the end of the book, do you think will they be able to eradicate the virus> The Virus.....if the tribal women are in fact "colonizers" , it is not surprising that colonizers would not have systemic defenses for all of the "bugs" of a new planet. Even when populations move around on our globe they are want to bring new ailments with them. I did not trip over the existence of the virus as much as its effect. In 92/3 when i read this book the world was yearning still for a cure for HIV/AIDS. Here is a story where a virus, kills yes, but if doesn't it embues the carrier with enhanced strengths and capabilities. A complete departure from what are minds have been saturated with in these days of HIV: until you die?, eventual total immune system failure. Company has already indicated a great need to eradicate the virus so as to access the planet. Resource need in any future story would dictate if they try again, no? Does Griffith leave >us enough hope that this fledgeling new society, tribes merged with >technologists, will be able to survive? What do you think happened? The technologists will not long be technologists as equipment breaks down. The existence of the floppy disk at Rathell's with all the "old things" she kept (pg 199) indicates that the original arrivals also had their "technologies" but after hundreds(?) of years it was gone or useless. I believe "what happened?" is that these new women become a unique tribe but are eventualy absorbed into a more primitive way because their external advantages/strengths (technology) cannot be sustained for lengthy periods of time. The dangerous part to me is the "trained killer" (MIRORS) aspects of this new tribe. When trata doesn't satisfy will they just overpower and take since they have "better" weapons and a preparedness to kill? >What did you like best in the book? Characters, places, ideas, entire passages.> I cannot contain it any longer.....The ENTIRE passage with the gong drops me in my tracks (pg 183-188) every time i read this book. what a brilliant vision. I wish we had an innate knowledge that we all pulse together. And it was part of growing to find and hear the pulse of the planet. And before I am considered untethered in the ethereal for my exhuberance about the pulsing planet, let me add that i was also mesmerized by the passages of sexual intimacy.....amazingly written passages of what it sometimes feels that it IS as well as what we know inside it can BE when you really connect with someone. More moving and exciting than anything that would have been more explicit. >What disappointed you?> Ummm, i am so busy enjoying the book i did not notice any flaws....that is work best left to reviewers in my opinion. >What parallels do you see between this book and Slow River? > Emotionally, physically, excruciating, slow and methodical growth under numerous layers of duress on the part of one extraordinary woman????? I think the things above gave me the biggest buzz....hope we are not done yet....i noticed the last series of posts had pretty much moved to other topics....oh well.