Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9803B" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 06:33:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone wrote "unfortunately these women are still prey to religious fanaticism..." No, not most of the women. The Echraidhe were able to be overcome by Uaithne's fanatical religious obsession because they were a suffering, dying tribe (like the Germans under Hitler). They knew there had to be some kind of drastic change in order for their tribe to continue, they also knew that only stringent discipline, based on respect for tradition, enabled them to survive in their tortuous environment. They were so torn by opposite forces that they couldn't save themselves, thus they fell prey to their leader's psychosis. The other tribes, as I remember, had a nature based spirituality, but no fanaticism. Spirituality is natural and healthy, surely not evidence of dysfunction. The book to me seemed utopian because women were people, as mentioned before, and various human characteristics were believably displayed in different women without their being a function of sex. I have to think that the artist-hunter Leifin would have been a male in any other novel. Marghe the adventuresome main character might have been female, but gender would have come into play in the minor characters. Only in a utopia can one be oneself without regard to gender, how's that for a broad statement? Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:50:27 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola >Yet it seems to me the paperbacks sell for one >good reason .... us fans no tenemos el dinero! No $$$$! Plus the standard mass market paperback (but not the thoroughly irritating 'trade' p/back format) is extremely portable. This is particularly important when packing to go away, if one reads at the rate I do! Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:35:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: [Re: [Friday morning humor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got this this morning and had to share it with all my lists. It just sounds too familiar. Joyce Jones >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Q: How many list subscribers does it take to change a lightbulb? > > A: 1,1331 > > > > 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the list that the light bulb has > been > > changed. > > > > 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb > > could have been changed differently. > > > > 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. > > > > 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. > > > > 53 to flame the spell checkers > > > > 156 to write to the list administrator comlaining about the light bulb > > discussion and its inapporpriatness to this mail list. > > > > 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames > > > > 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this > > email exchange to alt.lite.bulb > > > > 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and > > alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped > > > > 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and > > therefore the posts "are" relevant to this mail list > > > > 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy > the > > best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and > > what brands are faulty > > > > 27 to post URL'S where one can see examples of defferent light bulbs > > > > 14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URL's > > > > 3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this list > > which makes light bulbs relevant to this list > > > > 33 to summarize all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and > > footers, and then add "me too" > > > > 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle > > the light bulb controversy > > > > 19 to quote the "me too's" to say "me three" > > > > 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb > > FAQ > > > > 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup > > > > 47 to say this is just what lt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here > > > > 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb > > > > Kathie Nettleton > > k.nettleton@sympatico.ca > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:54:45 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-08 07:33:41 EST, you write: << The book to me seemed utopian because women were people, as mentioned before, and various human characteristics were believably displayed in different women without their being a function of sex. >> I enjoyed reading about women as people, whose activities were not classified according to their relationship to men and their concerns. But for several reasons, I don't consider the book utopian: 1. Life is difficult and oppressive for these women. I wouldn't want to live in tents in the bitter cold, in an environment that doesn't seem to offer a possibility of anything better. The people at Ollmoss, while offering a better life, still have a more primitive way of living than I consider utopian. And the people at Port Central have to worry about what Company is going to do to them. Nobody can just relax and enjoy life. 2. I don't see much humor in the book. Everything is so grim and bleak. Not a utopian feel, IMHO. 3. Even without the aggressiveness of males, they still manage to have bloodlust and armed conflict. I'd like to think that women would have a kinder, gentler civilization. That's what seems to happen in corporate America to a great extent. 4. Being hetero, I would not want to live in a place without any men around. They may sometimes be arrogant and overbearing, but to do without all those nice, rippling muscles--the powerful shoulders and bulging biceps--the lean, flat, belly and the washboard abs--the rasp of new whiskers against one's face--oh, my, is it getting warm in here? 5. There's a feeling of isolation and aloneness about many of the characters. I really like the part in the book where Marghe reaches a turning point--she realizes that she was simply an observer and not a participant in humanity, and she knows that she's changing into something else. At that point, she begins to be a part of something larger than herself. But up until that point, I see the kind of separateness in individuals that I would find hard to live with. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:55:32 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Trade paperbacks (Was: PW and Nicola) Content-Type: text/plain > >Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:50:27 UT >From: Lesley Hall >Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola > > >Yet it seems to me the paperbacks sell for one > >good reason .... us fans no tenemos el dinero! No $$$$! > >Plus the standard mass market paperback (but not the thoroughly irritating >'trade' p/back format) is extremely portable. This is particularly important >when packing to go away, if one reads at the rate I do! >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Another important reason for the shift, from my reading, is that mass market paperbacks are returnable by bookstores just by stripping off the covers and sending them back to the publisher. This means that returns are often very high these days (around 50% of the print run for most books). Trade paperbacks cannot be stripped, and therefore returns are less of a problem. Perhaps Maryelizabeth could comment, and correct any errors I may have made. I agree that this development is concerning, not personally (fortunately, I have more trouble finding time to read that affording books), but for the future of the field. When I was a kid in the 80's I could keep up witht the field pretty well using used bookstores and mass market PB's which were semi-affordable, I wonder what kids do these days. Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:44:49 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: trade paperbacks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Best reason to support trade or quality paperbacks -- extended shelf life. Unlike the mass market paperbacks, trade paperbacks are not "strippable" and therefore are returned to the publisher if unsold whole and ready to be reshipped to a location where they can sell better, unlike the mass markets, which are destroyed. Which is not to say that trade paperbacks can't be mass market size. White Wolf, for example, deserves praise because ALL of its paperbacks are trade paperbacks, and therefore remain whole. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:10:44 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robyn Starkey Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've just finished Ammonite, which I really enjoyed. I'm also enjoying people's comments on the book. The thing I liked best about the book were the descriptions of the 'native' tribal cultures, how the women chose to interact and organise their kin and allegiances and living arrangements. In fact, like Marge in her anthropologist mode, I would have liked to have found out more about how some of these concepts worked, like the "choose-mother" for instance. I liked the descriptions and explanations about the rhythm of the world and the relationship of the people to their environment. Jeep is deceptively like earth at times, and I think the notion of its alien-ness was interesting. It seemed to me that the virus was sorting out the people who could adapt to the new world - Marghe survived because she accepted it. Maybe this is the key to why the virus killed the men? A few people have commented on how gender works in the book, and on the idea of complete people. I must say that although I enjoyed the ideas portrayed in the book, I don't think the genderlessness worked quite as seamlessly as all that. It seemed to me that in the book there was a concentration on the tougher, more 'masculine' women - eg. we learned a lot more about the psyches of Uaithne the Warrior, and Leifin the Hunter than we did about more balanced or more "feminine" characters like Thenike or Torre 'Na. I apprecated the comments of whoever said we learned a lot about Marghe and her body, because while I think that's true, I often didn't really understand her motivations. That was an intriguing relationship to have with a character, I think. A couple of things that bugged me - there were some holes in the ending and things that weren't resolved. Now, I don't mind a mysterious ending, but in this case it seemed more like a failure to tie up loose ends. Is this just room for a sequel? The other thing that bugged me were the names. So many of them seemed like jaw-breakers (not the Irish ones, the others), and their associations were a little unfortunate. Like the goth, and Thenike (I saw this as "the Nike", and couldn't get it out of my head). Robyn *********************************** Robyn Starkey University of Melbourne r.starkey@elp.unimelb.edu.au ************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:16:10 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robyn Starkey Subject: Re: BDG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:17 6/03/98 -0800, you wrote: >I noticed that nobody in Leifin's community saw fit to sanction her for >killing sentient natives - not even Thenike. Thenike knew they were >sentient and had proved it with her song. If the others were at all >receptive they'd know it too. But they mildly shook their heads and said >it really wasn't a very nice thing to do ... somewhat as if Leifin were >guilty of a minor breach of manners. Interesting... I found this disturbing, too. As was Marghe's acceptance - if Leifin isn't swayed by Thenike's song, we can't do anything else. It seems like legal procedures among the natives on Jeep pertain only to property and trata, and there is no process of sanction if there is no commerce. Eg the woman who was punished for faking credits was denied a livelihood for fraud, and the Echraidhe had to pay a heap of compensation for what they had done. It doesn't look like there is anything Leifin's kith can do about her activities, especially as they are profitable. Robyn *********************************** Robyn Starkey University of Melbourne r.starkey@elp.unimelb.edu.au ************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:17:31 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kitimher Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit First of all to Nicola, congratualtions on writing of a fine piece of work that is engaging, thought provoking and memorable. My thoughts have jelled a bit, so here they are: ~There's been quite a bit of reference to the lack of men or reference to men in this piece, I have a couple of thoughts about this: --I found Marghe's recollections of her father to be quite poignant, they are some of the most memorable parts of the book. I also didn't detect a lack of caring about the loss of men, I think the somber aspects of the novel reflect a feeling of loss wordlessly. --As a lesbian woman, I found the lesbian relationships wonderfully natural, accurate while being quite subtlely drawn. I appreciated the way the characters were allowed to emerge full and that it was unnecessary to create their personalities based upon how they looked, so Uaithne's darkness was an inherent part of her, and there was no need to paint her for example, as extremely masculine, etc. INHO this is the mark of both a good writer and a woman who "gets it". --Re Barbara's post. . . 4. Being hetero, I would not want to live in a place without any men around. They may sometimes be arrogant and overbearing, but to do without all those nice, rippling muscles--the powerful shoulders and bulging biceps--the lean, flat, belly and the washboard abs--the rasp of new whiskers against one's face--oh, my, is it getting warm in here? I would miss men a great deal, I have great male friends, would love to have more, am in fact raising a little man to be, but these are all things that you can find in women, whiskers and all! tara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:04:48 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Trade paperbacks (Was: PW and Nicola) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I hate to display my ignorance, but -- just what does the term "trade paperback" mean? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:20:14 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-09 22:21:30 EST, you write: << but these are all things that you can find in women, whiskers and all! >> I forgot to mention in my list the fact that men have an outie, not an innie--a major (and appreciated by some) difference! I have many women friends I love dearly, but never that way. Someone on the list remarked that Marghe had no sex life before going to this world. It seemed to me that she must be a lesbian, whether or not she'd been sexually active, because she responded in that way to women, and didn't seem to miss anything. I noticed it in particular when Marghe started thinking "Thenike will keep me safe" because it's the way many women feel about men--a dependence thing. Before that, she seemed sadly separate and isolated. But then she started looking to someone for protection. I don't think Nicola intended to show Marghe as being dependent in a weak way--she'd already proven that she could take pretty good care of herself. I think it's natural to want someone to watch out for you sometimes so you can relax now and then. Marghe is a very human character. I admire the characterization in this novel--I can see each of the main characters as a distinct individual. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:44:58 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: Trade paperbacks (Was: PW and Nicola) In-Reply-To: <19980309185533.16483.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:55 9/03/98 PST, you wrote: >> >>Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:50:27 UT >>From: Lesley Hall >>Subject: Re: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola >> >> >Yet it seems to me the paperbacks sell for one >> >good reason .... us fans no tenemos el dinero! No $$$$! >> (snip,snip) >I agree that this development is concerning, not personally >(fortunately, I have more trouble finding time to read that affording >books), but for the future of the field. When I was a kid in the 80's >I could keep up witht the field pretty well using used bookstores and >mass market PB's which were semi-affordable, I wonder what kids >do these days. >Dan Krashin Dan - its somewhat worse for readers outside the USA. When I was last in the USA on holidays I went absolutely *ape* in my book-shopping (not to mention CDs and videos ) I ended up buying an extra set of luggage and paying exorbitant excess-baggage weight rates to the Airline in order to bring home hundreds of paperbacks. It still worked out to be 30-40% cheaper than buying the same mass-market editions in Australia retail. > > Julieanne Lewis ppp98@cs.net.au______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:29:25 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Trade paperbacks (Was: PW and Nicola) In-Reply-To: <5aaae2e7.3504c9f2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Lurima wrote: > I hate to display my ignorance, but -- just what does the term "trade > paperback" mean? > Trade paperbacks are generally better made than mass market paperbacks and cost more. They're frequently brought out when a book is literary in nature and they sometimes stay in print longer than mass market paperbacks or hardcovers do. If the typical SF hardcover costs $24.95, it will likely be put out in a trade paperback edition for $14.00 and then, eventually, a mass market paperback edition for $5.99. Trade paperbacks are usually, although not always, physically larger than mass market books and, as was previously mentioned, are distributed and returned differently from mass market paperbacks. For them as can afford them trade paperbacks are a nice financial and physical quality compromise between the expense of a hardcover and the "fall apart after one reading" cheapness of a mass market book. They're particularly worthwhile when you're contemplating the purchase of a book for your permanent library. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:35:09 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kitimher Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I forgot to mention in my list the fact that men have an outie, not an innie--a major (and appreciated by some) difference! Well Barbara, I hate to be the one to tell you but. . . ~:-} ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:51:45 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kitimher Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/98 7:17:46 PM, you wrote: <> Oh Robin I so disagree. As I said in an earlier post, I don't think that any of the women were ascribed particularly feminine or masculine characteristics. Uaithne's long braids are one of the most frequently referenced physical characteristics in the novel. Thenike is clearly physically strong, and came across with a great deal of "male" energy. I also disagree that Uaithne was not a "balanced" or "feminine" character, it was clear to me that she was conflicted, and also clear to me that in her own way, she came to love Marghe. The very balanced part about her INO was that she couldn't "go there". I think she had a tenderness that she was unable/unwilling to express, she certainly was full of passion. And I think we learned a great deal about Thenike. She has a quiet wisdom about her. As someone who has spent a large portion of her life travelling, singing and storytelling, it seemed to me that in her personal life, she was able to say a great deal, wordlessly. tara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Trade paperbacks (Was: PW and Nicola) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Michael, Barbara-- As someone who does this for a living, I can attest that most trade paperbacks of are rarely better made than mass market paperbacks. They use the same inexepensive grade of paper (which turns yellow), and the same binding technique. Some, however, are of better quality, and it is usually easy to tell them apart from their lesser cousins. Most trade paperbacks are just a method of separating consumers from more of their money. We at DAW only print mass-market paperbacks and hardbacks with acid-free paper. Debra Euler, DAW Books >>> Michael Marc Levy - 3/10/98 1:29 AM >>> On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Lurima wrote: > I hate to display my ignorance, but -- just what does the term "trade > paperback" mean? > Trade paperbacks are generally better made than mass market paperbacks and cost more. They're frequently brought out when a book is literary in nature and they sometimes stay in print longer than mass market paperbacks or hardcovers do. If the typical SF hardcover costs $24.95, it will likely be put out in a trade paperback edition for $14.00 and then, eventually, a mass market paperback edition for $5.99. Trade paperbacks are usually, although not always, physically larger than mass market books and, as was previously mentioned, are distributed and returned differently from mass market paperbacks. For them as can afford them trade paperbacks are a nice financial and physical quality compromise between the expense of a hardcover and the "fall apart after one reading" cheapness of a mass market book. They're particularly worthwhile when you're contemplating the purchase of a book for your permanent library. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:12:00 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Octavia Butler News Content-Type: text/plain Reposted for informational purposes from SF-LOVER'S: Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:42:35 -0400 From: jadelman@haverford.edu (Joshua L. Adelman) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Octavia Butler I just had the wonderful experience of hearing Octavia Butler speak at Swarthmore College just the other day. She's a really fantastic women, although she did not appear as I pictured her after reading her work. SHe was much more of a matriarchal figure, than the small powerful African-American women that many of her characters come across as. Has anyone else heard her speak? She also mentioned that she's almost done writing her "sequel" to PARABLE OF THE SOWER, which will be entitled PARABLE OF THE TALON. Josh Adelman Haverford College This is great news! I assume the name of the book will be _Parable of the Talents_, though. Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:29:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Trade paperbacks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- M. Levy says: > Trade paperbacks are generally better made than mass market paperbacks and cost > more. They're frequently brought out when a book is literary in nature and they > sometimes stay in print longer than mass market paperbacks or hardcovers do. Doesn't that limit the market for serious feminist SF, then? That is, since serious feminist SF is more literary than the usual run. And I think the vast majority of potential readers of any SF is taken aback at a $14 cover price for a new book. (Hey, I think $5.99 for a mass-market paperback is high, but then I'm rather low-income.) On the other hand - some historical perspective. In the mid-19th century , any edition of a book cost a week's income in average wages; in the 1920s, a trade hardcover would set the average worker back a full day's wages. Today you can get a new hardcover 1st edition for what amounts to a couple of hours average pay (which is more than I make, BTW)... -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:29:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Just ran across the judges' comments on this book when it won the Tiptree Award in 1994, and I thought I'd excerpt some quotes for the list's reaction. "While avoiding rhetoric, cant and stereotype, Griffith's politics run subtle and deep." - Steve Brown "This is the story of how people interact, and the evolution and adaptation of the protagonist to a world that is different from the one she's always known. Also a novel which postulates that a society composed of only women would not be fundamentally different from one containing both genders." - Susan Casper "...an interesting rite of passage novel... This book is not based on 'difference' gender philosophy (i.e. that women and men are basically psychologically different), and therefore, the women-only culture wasn't portrayed as a utopia for its lack of men. Greed and mindless violence exist in this culture as in ours. Its gender-bending message was that sexuality is only a minor part of human relationships." - Jeanne Gomoll "It answers the question 'When you eliminate one gender, what's left?' (a whole world, is the answer). But a lot of books like Moby-Dick eliminate one gender, and yet nobody thinks anything about it." - Ursula K. Le Guin "Ammonite could have been a didactic novel or a utopian fiction, but Griffith has made her world of women complex and full of people both good and bad." - Maureen McHugh -- -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:15:09 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Teresa Alonso Subject: Re: Trade paperbacks (Was: PW and Nicola) Comments: To: Julieanne Le Comte MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even so , you are lucky. In non-English speaking countries like mine (Spain) you add-up the translation problem to the price. No matter how much you are prepared to pay, if you don't speak English, as is the case of a lot of persons of my generation including some of my SF fan friends, you will never be able to read for example, Nicola's or Catherine's books (Vonda is luckier except for the Starfarers series that I had to buy in English). Life is unfair! -----Original Message----- De: Julieanne Le Comte Para: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fecha: martes 10 de marzo de 1998 8:49 >Dan - its somewhat worse for readers outside the USA. When I was last in >the USA on holidays I went absolutely *ape* in my book-shopping (not to >mention CDs and videos ) > . It still worked out to be 30-40% cheaper than buying the >same mass-market editions in Australia retail. >> >> >Julieanne Lewis >ppp98@cs.net.au______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:44:17 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Comments: To: Lurima In-Reply-To: <4c20b473.35042ce8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Lurima wrote: (snip) > 3. Even without the aggressiveness of males, they still manage to have > bloodlust and armed conflict. I'd like to think that women would have a > kinder, gentler civilization. That's what seems to happen in corporate America > to a great extent. Most of the tribes had managed to live and trade with each other peacefully. Only a few tribes fought and it seemed that it was more like raiding for goods than actual warfare. It wasn't until the Echraidhe was on the brink of extinction (something that was brought about by Uaithne offending a neighboring tribe) that war broke out. It was clear that Uaithne was insane and managed to drag her clan into her madness. With the exception of the Echraidhe, I found most of the groups to be fairly peaceful (surprisingly enough, even the Mirrors) and I would have found it to be extremely unrealistic if there had been no conflict at all. With or without men, the people on Jeep were still human with all the same human flaws and faults. I liked the fact that no one was "perfect" and that each group had found solutions to problems but none of them were perfect (for example, how do you catch and prosecute a theif when there is no police force or jails? The solution was interesting but not perfect.). > barbara > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:06:57 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: BDG: additional material Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I thought this would be of interest after we had finished discussing Ammonite, so hadn't posted it earlier. If anyone has come across other relevant critical writing, please send me the reference so I can include it in the listings. Additional material relevant to _Ammonite_ currently available online: Gwyneth Jones, review, _The New York Review of Science Fiction_, no. 54 (February 1993) http://gopher.well.sf.ca.us:70/0/Publications/authors/gwyn/jones. ammonite Evelyn C. Leeper, online review, 1993, The Linkoping Science Fiction & Fantasy Archive http://sf.www.lysator.liu.se/sf_archive/sf-texts/books/G/Griffith ,Nicola.mbox Judges' commentary, The 1993 James Tiptree, Jr. Award http://www.sf3.org/tiptree/1993/index.html Links to texts for the following relevant writings/interviews by Nicola Griffith may be found on her web page at: http://www.sff.net/people/nicola "The New Aliens of Science Fiction" in _Nebula Awards 30_ (1996) (brief discussion of aliens, sexuality, lesbians portrayed by women and men) "Writing from the Body"; talk presented at Wiscon 20, 1996 (on Art and the Body; contains an account of her illness and writing _Ammonite_) (also published as "Writing from the Body," _SF Eye_, no. 15 [Fall 1997]) Interview by Ruud van de Kruisweg, _Holland SF_ (Fall 1994) (wide-ranging; includes discussion of _Ammonite_ characters, all- female worlds) Interview by Dave Slusher for "Reality Break" radio show (recorded December 5, 1992) Additional reviews: _Kliatt Young Adult Paperback Book Guide_ 27 (May 1993): 14 _Lamda Book Report_ 3 (Mar 1993): 32ff. James Sallis, _Los Angeles Times Books Review_, June 6, 1993, p.2ff _New Statesman & Society_ (London) 6, April 30, 1933, p.47 Gerald Jonas, _New York Times Book Review_ 98, March 14, 1993, p.14 _Science Fiction Chronicle_ 14 (May 1993): 34 Paul Di Filippo, _Washington Post Book World_, July 30, 1995, p.12 _Women's Review of Books_ 10 (July 1993): 30 _Locus_ reviews and commentary: November 1992, p.17ff.; December 1992, p.27ff.; February 1994, p.75ff. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:14:39 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: Sequel to Cyteen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >From the latest issue of Locus: "C.J. Cherryh sold the sequel to _Cyteen_ plus a second trilogy in the _Foreigner_ series to Betsy Wollheim at DAW via Matt Bialer of the William Morris Agency." According to her postings on her AOL message board, Cherryh has wanted to write a sequel to Cyteen for some time and has only been waiting for a contract to do so. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:48:48 -0800 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Sequel to Cyteen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy bounce o'joy...I can't wait. This is my favorite Cherryh book, and I envision many sleepless nights ahead when it comes out. later, Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:04:54 -0500 Reply-To: Heather Whipple Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Re: Octavia Butler News In-Reply-To: <19980310181200.12809.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > This is great news! I assume the name of the book will be _Parable of > the Talents_, though. > > Dan Krashin I also heard her speak at Swarthmore, and the title *is* _Parable of the Talents_. She said her editor claimed it'd be out in 1999, but she seemed a bit skeptical, in an amused rather than pessimistic way. I don't know why she thought it might take longer. *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:24:28 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: buying books on holiday / Feminist SF in mm/tp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Julieanne mentioned having to buy extra luggage for her many books bought while visiting the U.S. Would the old trick of buying disposable clothes and leaving them after wearing them, rather than laundering them and repacking them given you any more room? It's depressing that even with the extra money for luggage and freight, the books were less expensive than if purchased in AU. +++++++++++++++++++++ Actually, I think a lot of the small press feminist SF titles I've bought came out in trade paperback as their only edition. It can be a nice compromise, as several others have pointed out. ++++++++++++++++++++ Thanks to David Christenson for the comment on the relative prices of books. Makes me treasure the amount I've ammassed all the more. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > With the exception of the Echraidhe, I found most of the groups to be fairly > peaceful (surprisingly enough, even the Mirrors) and I would have found it to > be extremely unrealistic if there had been no conflict at all. And come to think of it, the major conflicts had pretty much been resolved at the end of the book, hadn't they? So maybe the *sequel* can be more utopian... -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:22:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: Re: BDG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is sort of following the idea that, even if Leifin's kin were to remove her from the kinship ties, as long as someone will purchase/trade for the Goth hide and bones, Leifin will find a place. Also, if no one buys the Goth hide/bones, then perhaps Leifin will cease and desist. Then again, it also shows the acceptance of family for who they are (that she finds the same beauty in the dead wood and in the dead Goth). When the electromagnetic energy is discussed, all parts of Jeep are said to contain it including plants/trees, that in some ways that the materials (non Goth) that Leifin uses can be compared in any way? misha bernardm@colorado.edu >---------- >From: Robyn Starkey[SMTP:r.starkey@ELP.UNIMELB.EDU.AU] >Sent: Monday, March 09, 1998 7:16 PM >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG > >At 07:17 6/03/98 -0800, you wrote: >>I noticed that nobody in Leifin's community saw fit to sanction her for >>killing sentient natives - not even Thenike. Thenike knew they were >>sentient and had proved it with her song. If the others were at all >>receptive they'd know it too. But they mildly shook their heads and said >>it really wasn't a very nice thing to do ... somewhat as if Leifin were >>guilty of a minor breach of manners. Interesting... > >I found this disturbing, too. As was Marghe's acceptance - if Leifin isn't >swayed by Thenike's song, we can't do anything else. It seems like legal >procedures among the natives on Jeep pertain only to property and trata, >and there is no process of sanction if there is no commerce. Eg the woman >who was punished for faking credits was denied a livelihood for fraud, and >the Echraidhe had to pay a heap of compensation for what they had done. It >doesn't look like there is anything Leifin's kith can do about her >activities, especially as they are profitable. > >Robyn > >*********************************** > >Robyn Starkey >University of Melbourne >r.starkey@elp.unimelb.edu.au > >************************************ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:35:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: femfs: BDG Ammonite- standing stones, EM, and living things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been thinking about those standing stones and who built them The novel lays it out as the Goths and inside the story it doesn't seem plausible that a postcatastrophy colonial society (post virus?) would be ready to use their presumably more technological prowess to erect them. Assuming it is as Thenike's story (Goth's built it and migrated each year for birth/healing)... some thoughts Marghe sees the same effects (EM disturbances) in the Standing Stones as during the electrical storms which hilight both Jeep's alien qualities and the the changed nature of "humaness" with the virus. The Goth used the Standing Stones in association with procreation and died out both because of the ice age and their inability to migrate south (due to the new colonial influx). The Echraidhe counted the Standing Stones sacred to their tribe. Like the Goth, the Echraidhe (and the Briogannon) were dying out for lack of exogamy and the harsh winters of the Tehuantepec. They killed (or rebirthed as their own, as they did Marghe) all the other women the Echraidhe found there. The EM awareness of the body (aided and controlled healing, faster healing, ability to start a modified mitosis/miosis for conception) is affected by the virus. So, somehow this is all connected, the conception of Goth's, the EM of the planet (a giant "computer"?), and the ability of the women to conceive. Possibly connected? The Echraidhe destroyed the northern satellite relay (and then, were all systems destoryed when the Kurst blew the Deck Platform?) either because it was a sacred/EM place for another, or it was disturbing the balance? No conclusions, I know, but more stuff to think about? misha bernardm@colorado.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:11:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jean richards Subject: looking for information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BD4D19.19D73FA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BD4D19.19D73FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am interested in knowing more about Sherri S.Tepper. Is there any = information on the web? Does anyone know where biographical information = might be found? Thanks for the help-Jean ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BD4D19.19D73FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am interested in knowing more = about Sherri=20 S.Tepper. Is there any information on the web? Does anyone know where=20 biographical information might be found? Thanks for the=20 help-Jean
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BD4D19.19D73FA0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:33:22 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: Re: looking for information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Laura Quilter has an information site at: http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/authors/tepper.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:07:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Sequel to Cyteen -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain And we're very excited about it! Debra at DAW Books >>> Kmfriello - 3/11/98 9:14 AM >>> >From the latest issue of Locus: "C.J. Cherryh sold the sequel to _Cyteen_ plus a second trilogy in the _Foreigner_ series to Betsy Wollheim at DAW via Matt Bialer of the William Morris Agency." According to her postings on her AOL message board, Cherryh has wanted to write a sequel to Cyteen for some time and has only been waiting for a contract to do so. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:53:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Mar 1998 to 11 Mar 1998 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Mar 98 00:07:34 CST." <199803120607.AAA154116@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I found the following paragraph in "The New Aliens of Science Fiction", by Nicola Griffith (see Kmfriello@AOL.COM's post on the 11th): >But lesbians and gay men are not the only political hot potato. Look at what's >happening in California and Florida--the growing fear and resentment of > immigrants. I think we might soon see some science fiction about immigrating > aliens and how they upset the fabric of society by coming to *our* world and > using up *our* resources and why don't they just go back to where they came > from? I thought this was a fascinating concept, especially after moving to California from Boston. You'd think the people here invented the idea of resenting the immigrants who do work they wouldn't touch for money they wouldn't notice. I am astounded by the ferver with which otherwise incredibly open-hearted people, self-described social revolutionaries, people who were in labor movements before I was born, will complain about how "those Mexican women drive up to the US to have their babies in US hospitals just so their kids can be US citizens!" God, is that brilliant, or what? I'd never thought of that. So then I'm thinking...what if these theoretical aliens were richer, had better health care, could extend your life by 50 healthy years, were part of vast, tolerant, prolific cultures? How many women would be brave enough to go have their kids on foreign soil so that they could have all those things? Especially if they go back and forth, but you couldn't? I've read a lot of SF about trading with, bargaining with, being taken (a la Rebecca Ore, I think) by, learning from that type of alien, but the only thing I can think of that sounds at all like the illegal immigrant scenario is, well, Men In Black. Is there other stuff out there? jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bill Sansbury Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Mar 1998 to 11 Mar 1998 In-Reply-To: <9803122153.AA02309@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I would say that the (defunct) TV series "Alien Nation" covered this whole concept pretty darn well.
Bill

At 04:53 PM 3/12/98 , you wrote:
>I found the following paragraph in "The New Aliens of Science Fiction", by
>Nicola Griffith (see Kmfriello@AOL.COM's post on the 11th):
>
>>But lesbians and gay men are not the only political hot potato. Look at what's
>>happening in California and Florida--the growing fear and resentment of >
>immigrants. I think we might soon see some science fiction about immigrating >
>aliens and how they upset the fabric of society by coming to *our* world and >
>using up *our* resources and why don't they just go back to where they came >
>from?
>
>I thought this was a fascinating concept, especially after moving to
>California from Boston. You'd think the people here invented the idea of
>resenting the immigrants who do work they wouldn't touch for money they
>wouldn't notice. I am astounded by the ferver with which otherwise incredibly
>open-hearted people, self-described social revolutionaries, people who were in
>labor movements before I was born, will complain about how "those Mexican
>women drive up to the US to have their babies in US hospitals just so their
>kids can be US citizens!" God, is that brilliant, or what? I'd never thought
>of that.
>
>So then I'm thinking...what if these theoretical aliens were richer, had
>better health care, could extend your life by 50 healthy years, were part of
>vast, tolerant, prolific cultures? How many women would be brave enough to go
>have their kids on foreign soil so that they could have all those things?
>Especially if they go back and forth, but you couldn't?
>
>I've read a lot of SF about trading with, bargaining with, being taken (a la
>Rebecca Ore, I think) by, learning from that type of alien, but the only thing
>I can think of that sounds at all like the illegal immigrant scenario is,
>well, Men In Black. Is there other stuff out there?
>
>jessie
>
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the  meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
                                  PKD
grok@idt.net  http://village.ios.com/~grok/
bsans@wam.umd.edu  http://www.wam.umd.edu/~bsans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:03:17 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: What is "literary" to you? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-10 04:56:17 EST, you write: << For them as can afford them trade paperbacks are a nice financial and physical quality compromise between the expense of a hardcover and the "fall apart after one reading" cheapness of a mass market book. They're particularly worthwhile when you're contemplating the purchase of a book for your permanent library. >> Thanks for taking the time to explain that so clearly. Your reply brings up the issue of what is "literary." I know what I've been trained in--I have a PhD in English lit'ra'cha! But does the group see as "literary" a book that's beautifully written, but has no story to it? Writers like Isaac Asimov and Orson Scott Card emphasize the importance of story. I think the reason much SF is not considered literary is that it's so forgettable. An SF novel (in particular, a tie-in novel, since the characters are forced to be static) can tell an interesting tale without anything happening that ultimately means anything. I'm still not through reading _Ammonite_, and although it's a book I might not have picked up except for this mailing list discussion, it's not a book I could easily forget. The style is smooth and doesn't call attention to itself--it doesn't get in the way of the story--and the characters ring true. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:12:15 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Octavia Butler News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-10 13:17:08 EST, you write: << I just had the wonderful experience of hearing Octavia Butler speak at Swarthmore College just the other day. She's a really fantastic women, although she did not appear as I pictured her after reading her work. SHe was much more of a matriarchal figure, than the small powerful African-American women that many of her characters come across as. Has anyone else heard her speak? >> Yes. I interviewed her for a pro session at the BYU SF&F Symposium, _Life, the Universe, and Everything_--currently in its 16th year. She is a very gracious woman, and willing to answer questions about her work. What impressed me was her explanations about the sources of her stories--she'd observe the same everyday occurrences we all see, but think about them and then put a twist on them to make a story. For example, she told about the insects in I think the Amazon jungle that were so voracious--she then wrote a story about aliens who have to inject their eggs into humans to have them hatch. The story wasn't gross, like Aliens--the beings always got permission from the humans first! The story I remember was about one of these aliens convincing a human to let it do that. It wouldn't have worked on me!) barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:19:02 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-11 15:08:13 EST, you write: << So maybe the *sequel* can be more utopian... >> I hope there is a sequel! The book seems to leave us in the air, much like McAffrey's first _Freedom_ novel. I know that in real life plots don't always get resolved, but one can hope for it in a work of art-- barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:33:29 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Bill Sansbury's comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:03 PM 3/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I would say that the (defunct) TV series "Alien >Nation" covered this whole concept pretty darn well.
>Bill
>
>At 04:53 PM 3/12/98 , you wrote:
>>I found the following paragraph in "The New Aliens of Science >Fiction", by
pleeeeeeeeeeeeeze don't assume all mail clients can interpret html!!!! pleeeeeeeeeeeeeze be aware that yours htmlizes your mail, if you didn't do this on purpose... Thank you, Heather (garbaged) hmaclean@kent.edu Reality is only a question of language. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 00:13:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail4.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ><< So maybe the *sequel* can > be more utopian... >> > >I hope there is a sequel! The book seems to leave us in the air, much like >McAffrey's first _Freedom_ novel. I know that in real life plots don't always >get resolved, but one can hope for it in a work of art-- I actually thought the book stands quite nicely on its own, without a sequel. I don't think GP has to become Pern, with all of its facets explored and dissected (not to say I dislike that). And I wouldn't be resistant if Nicola did write a sequel, I just don't think we need one... - Geoffrey, the busy fellow sitting editing and re-editing a review... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:54:30 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Illegal immigrants In-Reply-To: <9803122153.AA02309@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: yesterday's enquiry about sf about alien illegal immigrants. Not _quite_ the thing, but how about Gwyneth Jones's wonderful sf trilogy, _White Queen_, _North Wind_ and _Phoenix Cafe_. In the next issue of FOUNDATIONM, Douglas Barbour is going to be calling that the best sf series of the 1990s. (The second best is Jack Womack's Dryco Chronicles.) And it has a great deal that ought to be of interest to FEMINISTSF: I am suprised not to have seen much mention of it yet on these pages. Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media .............................................................................. On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > I found the following paragraph in "The New Aliens of Science Fiction", by > Nicola Griffith (see Kmfriello@AOL.COM's post on the 11th): > > >But lesbians and gay men are not the only political hot potato. Look at what's > >happening in California and Florida--the growing fear and resentment of > > immigrants. I think we might soon see some science fiction about immigrating > > aliens and how they upset the fabric of society by coming to *our* world and > > using up *our* resources and why don't they just go back to where they came > > from? > > I thought this was a fascinating concept, especially after moving to > California from Boston. You'd think the people here invented the idea of > resenting the immigrants who do work they wouldn't touch for money they > wouldn't notice. I am astounded by the ferver with which otherwise incredibly > open-hearted people, self-described social revolutionaries, people who were in > labor movements before I was born, will complain about how "those Mexican > women drive up to the US to have their babies in US hospitals just so their > kids can be US citizens!" God, is that brilliant, or what? I'd never thought > of that. > > So then I'm thinking...what if these theoretical aliens were richer, had > better health care, could extend your life by 50 healthy years, were part of > vast, tolerant, prolific cultures? How many women would be brave enough to go > have their kids on foreign soil so that they could have all those things? > Especially if they go back and forth, but you couldn't? > > I've read a lot of SF about trading with, bargaining with, being taken (a la > Rebecca Ore, I think) by, learning from that type of alien, but the only thing > I can think of that sounds at all like the illegal immigrant scenario is, > well, Men In Black. Is there other stuff out there? > > jessie > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:19:02 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ines Lassnig Organization: University of Klagenfurt, Austria Subject: female British writers of dystopia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know British (contemporary) women sketching dystopian scenarios in literature. I'm pursuing my PhD in Austria and am desperately looking for any hints on that kind of information, i.e. book titles ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:48:35 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Sequel to Cyteen -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, Debra Euler wrote: > And we're very excited about it! > > Debra at DAW Books > > >>> Kmfriello - 3/11/98 9:14 AM >>> > >From the latest issue of Locus: > > "C.J. Cherryh sold the sequel to _Cyteen_ plus a second trilogy in > the > _Foreigner_ series to Betsy Wollheim at DAW via Matt Bialer of the > William > Morris Agency." > > According to her postings on her AOL message board, Cherryh has > wanted to > write a sequel to Cyteen for some time and has only been waiting for > a > contract to do so. > Debra, Any ballpark estimate on when it will be published? The Foreigner series in particular is one of my favorites. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:21:05 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: female British writers of dystopia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Zoe Fairbairns, BENEFITS there are others i'm sure but i'm blanking right now, sorry At 01:19 pm 3/13/98 +0100, you wrote: >Does anyone know British (contemporary) women sketching dystopian >scenarios in literature. I'm pursuing my PhD in Austria and am >desperately looking for any hints on that kind of information, i.e. book >titles > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:26:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Sequel to Cyteen -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Any ballpark estimate on when it will be published? The Foreigner series in particular is one of my favorites. Mike Levy-- Uh, no. That's something we have yet to work out with Carolyn. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:34:16 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Illegal immigrants In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I remember how amusing I found the fact that in American English they used the same word for foreigners and extraterrestrials, the word I had seen used before only in the famous horror movie, "Aliens". It was funny to know that for Americans, we were the same as the "little green people" or those horrible body-invading monsters. The funniest part is that in this case, the language truly reflects if not the culture then a very common attitude. It often makes me wonder what would happen if Native Americans had Immigration and Naturalization Services back in 1500-1600's. On the other side, the most direct translation of the word "alien" at least to my language is "stranger". The fact that foreigners are equalized in name with extraterrestrials, I think, simply represents the conviction of many people that US contains a world in itself (which in many cases it does), and those from outside of it could be as well from another planet. I used to often feel like that myself. For example, while trying to grasp a concept of "low-calorie food" (which for a long time made about as much sense to me as "low-moisture water"). Marina the Alien "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:11:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Illegal immigrants In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Marina wrote: > The funniest part is that in this case, the language truly reflects if not > the culture then a very common attitude. It often makes me wonder what > would happen if Native Americans had Immigration and Naturalization > Services back in 1500-1600's. > It's a classic joke in the United States. Two Native Americans are watching the sailing ship come in and one says to the other "There goes the neighborhood." My ex-husband worked with a man from Jemez Pueblo who used to tell him "I wish we'd had the sense to pass your immigration laws 500 years ago." He also said "We Indians don't need to read science fiction. We already KNOW what it's like to be invaded by funnt-looking aliens with high technology and wierd customs.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Illegal immigrants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marina wrote: > I remember how amusing I found the fact that in American English they > used the same word for foreigners and extraterrestrials, the word I > had seen used before only in the famous horror movie, "Aliens". It > was funny to know that for Americans, we were the same as the "little > green people" or those horrible body-invading monsters. The only context in which I have heard the term "alien" used to describe another human is in the phrase "illegal alien", which means the same thing as "illegal immigrant". It is not a noun that is used by most Americans outside of the "being from outer space" meaning, though its adjectival meaning is nearly identical to that of the word "strange" or the word "foreign". It's certainly true that a lot of Americans are suspicious of immigrants, but it's not because they're confusing them with extraterrestrials. They're just uneducated and intolerant. As far as science fictional treatments of ETs as immigrants, I think Babylon 5 has done a pretty good job with the theme. Back on Earth there is a group known as the Home Guard who lobby and exert pressure and engage in terrorist acts from time to time to try and keep non-human races from influencing Earth and its culture(s). I second the recommendation of Gwyneth Jones. I have only read one of the trilogy mentioned (*White Queen*), but it had a very interesting take on the issue. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC - English Settlement "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:57:42 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: female British writers of dystopia Re query Does anyone know British (contemporary) women sketching dystopian scenarios in literature. I'm pursuing my PhD in Austria and am desperately looking for any hints on that kind of information, i.e. book titles How contemporary? I seem to recall mentioning some late 80s novels by Samantha Lee, Storm Constantine and Gill Alderman that struck a distinctly dystopian note, and which (I suggested) refracted certain elements of the contemporary UK political/social scene. The messages should be in the archives, I think Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:40:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Gwyneth Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:54:30 +0000 >From: Edward James >Subject: Illegal immigrants > >Re: yesterday's enquiry about sf about alien illegal immigrants. Not >_quite_ the thing, but how about Gwyneth Jones's wonderful sf trilogy, >_White Queen_, _North Wind_ and _Phoenix Cafe_. In the next issue of >FOUNDATIONM, Douglas Barbour is going to be calling that the best sf >series of the 1990s. (The second best is Jack Womack's Dryco Chronicles.) >And it has a great deal that ought to be of interest to FEMINISTSF: I am >suprised not to have seen much mention of it yet on these pages. > >Edward James Professor James: Maybe that's because others, like me, have found her style difficult to read. I have all three books, on recommendation of trusted friends, and have attempted to start them, but so far have not found the right mind set where they are accessible. :( This is not a criticism, just my personal experience so far. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:18:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ephraim mallery Subject: Re: What is "literary" to you? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Thanks for taking the time to explain that so clearly. Your reply brings up >the issue of what is "literary." I know what I've been trained in--I have a >PhD in English lit'ra'cha! But does the group see as "literary" a book that's >beautifully written, but has no story to it? It is insane in my mind to call anything literary simply because it is beautiful writing - and much more forgettable than many other works I have read. The key lies in your question "What is literary to you?" Literariness is dependent on the subject as much as meaning, reinterpreted by every reader picking up the book. In this light, the whole argument for literary becomes one of privilege. Someone tries to canonize a set of books, purported to have more merit than all the others, and then disregard or condescend anything not on the List. There are alot of good books out there, and many of us would agree to reccomend some of them to everyone, which doesn't mean they are required to have value. It seems that the very existence of this list, discussing feminist and science fiction works (a double removal from the accepted canon), works to battle against any idea of literary privelege. To answer your question, and rephrase it, "What do I like to read?" Works that make me think, with great characters, plots, ideas, worlds, books that I am so immersed in that I can dream the alternate universe, then return to this one and apply what I have learned. I like books that give me ammunition for change and critical thought, that teach me new ways of understanding. And while some of the supposedly "literary" works are included on this list, I also enjoy a good comic book or graffiti wall ... I have a mind like a marshmallow - unpredictable in the microwave. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:56:40 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: juno minerva Subject: a newbie saying hello Content-Type: text/plain Hi there everyone. I am new here. I have not been able to read all the mail yet. I am working on it. I am reading Sheri Tepper's Plague of Angels. I was wondering if anyone has read it and could give me some ideas on it. I was doing my BA in women's studies in Ontario in 1991 part time. It started to get too expensive for me though. I miss the discussion on things that we read. So I would love to hear thoughts on this book. I must tell you that I am only at the part where Orphan has just left the village. So please dont give too much away. . A bio: I am a 46 year old married woman with a daughter 23 and son 21. I work full time. Nice to meet you all. Thanks. Junominerva ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 15:18:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: a newbie saying hello Hello Junominerva, I am a 30 year old writer, a college senior here at Cal State University San Bernardino in Southern California, majoring in Creative Writing and English Literature. I use to keep an eye on the discussion on this list when I had AOL as my email address, and when I gave up AOL I missed this discussion and it was only very recently that I was able to subscribe here again. This list is so beneficial to me as a student of literature through the discussion of many different topics encompassing the parts of Feminist Science Fiction and how it all connects with other topics in the larger body called literature, that you always learn something new here. At the moment I am at a crossroads in deciding where I want to focus my work in the academic circle...my heart is telling me to get the MFA, while many others in the academic environment say I would be a PhD candidate and would make a good professor. It would take way too many emails to explain why I do not fit the typical English majoring student...suffice it to say that it is totally freeing and wonderful to be able to have a choice in what I desire to make of my life, at the same time, it is so difficult. Hehe did I mention I have this way of turning an entire conversation toward me??? Laughing at myself silly... Anyway, you will learn much just by observing the discussion taking place in this forum. Believe me, I sure have...take care Jo Ann ----------------------------------------------------- Silent Running BBS, Riverside, California. 2 MajorMUD games, 3 LORD games and 2 Tradewars games WWW.Silent-Running.com / telent silent-running.com 909-343-2030