Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9803C" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:47:17 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: Documentation of matriarchal cultures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-06 12:21:50 EST, you write: > > This isn't to take you to task, its just that lately lots and lots > of folk seem to be misunderstanding me. Harumph!!! Just exactly what do you mean by THAT??? :-) Jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 10:57:09 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: Re: What is "literary" to you? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit (I seem to be missing the original post for this issue) >>Literariness is dependent on the subject as much as meaning, reinterpreted by every reader picking up the book. In this light, the whole argument for literary becomes one of privilege. Someone tries to canonize a set of books, purported to have more merit than all the others, and then disregard or condescend anything not on the List. I have a world of problems with these statements: central to them, I think, is the crude reduction of the issues addressed. In writing there is Art. In detecting Art there may be certainty, but in identifying the exact standards of detection there is always ambiguity. The presence of this ambiguity may indeed be a signal of Art itself. The uses to which the definition of Art have been put (the institutionalization of Art) may be debated and attacked, most commonly in Modern culture by the declaration that Art does not exist or should be declared obsolete ("throw Pushkin from the steamship of modernity!"). This generates a dilemma of the existence of Art separate from its institutionalized identity or from the most common (inadequate) standards of definition... and so on. More to the point, I believe in Literature even if I don't accept its institutionalization. And I believe in ambiguity. I think in writing, unlike the visual arts, literariness can be quantified: a work may have some admirable literary qualities but fail as a completely rounded work of art. And Literariness in sf and utopian writing is closely allied to content. And in completely ambiguous answer to the question, what is "literary" to me, it's what I find "literary": I work backwards from there. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:52:25 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG Ammonite, Goths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One interpretation of the Goths is as a symbol of the human "colonists" or invaders' fall from grace. No matter the trials survived and the new civilization created, there is the blood of this sentient, native species on their hands. And Griffith shows us, as someone just pointed out, there isn't even any particular remorse about this genocide. There's no annoying "primary directive" keeping humans from having their way with a world. All this puts a different light on the holistic gaia-like planet heartbeat stuff. How clued in to the planet can someone be if they have so little respect for its inhabitants? Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:49:43 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A note from your neighborhood discussion group coordinator... Seems like the Ammonite discussion is winding down, although there's still plenty of time left for discussion. Anybody out there lurking who hasn't got around to commenting on the book, or on other people's comments? Are there any questions you'd like to put to Nicola about the book? For example: did she have in mind a sequel, as some have wondered? I'd also like to ask for feedback on the overall discussion process. For example, Pat suggested we proceed chapter-by-chapter rather than diving right into overall conclusions. Would you prefer to do it that way, or by section if applicable? Pat, how long does discussion remain on each chapter before proceeding? Also, there were some concerns about bandwidth, but it seems to me there wasn't an overwhelming volume of discussion. At least, nobody has complained to me and asked for a separate discussion list. Comments on this? Finally, remember that discussion on our next book, Dreamsnake, begins April 6: start reading soon so you don't miss any of the fun. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:36:33 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: female British writers of dystopia In-Reply-To: <35092436.1E36@edu.uni-klu.ac.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:19 13/03/98 +0100, you wrote: >Does anyone know British (contemporary) women sketching dystopian >scenarios in literature. I'm pursuing my PhD in Austria and am >desperately looking for any hints on that kind of information, i.e. book >titles > Miranda Miller - "Smiles and the Millenium" Flynn Connolly - "The Rising of the Moon" Doris Lessing - "Memoirs of a Survivor" Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:56:40 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: CFP: "Discipline and Deviance" (5/30; 10/2-4) (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" forwarded from another listserve > >> CALL FOR PAPERS (please forward) >> >> Discipline and Deviance: Genders, Technologies, Machines >> >> A Conference at Duke University >> October 2-4, 1998 >> >> Some feminist theorists such as Donna Haraway suggest that >>our implication in technology breaks down stable identity >>categories, such as human and machine, man and woman. New >>medical and reproductive technologies further challenge the >>permanence of sexed bodies as a means of establishing gendered >>difference, and enable new family units which challenge the >>heterosexual dyad. >> >> However, if technology has been seen as a means of >>challenging strict gendered identities, and thus offering a >>critique of and alternative to identity politics, it has also >>been theorized as perpetuating and constructing gender >>identities. For example, feminist approaches in the West to >>film, television, and domestic technology have argued that >>technology is often a means of reinforcing and policing gendered >>categories and roles. We invite proposals that will critically >>assess the gendered relations which are produced by and produce >>technology in a global perspective. >> >>Speakers confirmed: Valerie Hartouni, Lisa Nakamura, Sadie Plant >> >>Possible topics could include: >> >> * technologies of the workplace and/or home--domestic >> appliances, industrial technologies, telecommunications, >> computers, video games >> * technology and dependency theory--farming equipment, >> fertilizer, industrial plants >> * the internet >> * visual technologies--film, TV, virtual reality >> * science fiction--feminist utopias, third genders >> * reproductive technology--in-vitro fertilization, abortion, >> sterilization, birth control, cloning >> * medical technologies--cosmetic surgery, transsexual >> operations, hormonal interventions >> * cyborgs >> * technologies of therapy--"talking" cures versus >> psychopharmaceutic, prozac, lobotomies >> * 'soft' technologies--cosmetics, hair straightening, lingerie, >> diet pills, exercise machines/videos >> * the body as machine--drug addicts, professional athletes, >> anorexia, bulimia >> * sexuality/eroticism as technology--pornography, s/m toys, >> phone sex >> >>Please send 300 word abstracts by May 30 1998 to: >>Susan Brook or Alanna Thain >>The Literature Program >>Art Museum 104 >>Box 90670 >>Duke University >>Durham, NC 27708-0670 >> >>Email: smb7@acpub.duke.edu, athain@acpub.duke.edu >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:00:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-13 00:23:54 EST, you write: << I actually thought the book stands quite nicely on its own, without a sequel. I don't think GP has to become Pern, with all of its facets explored and dissected (not to say I dislike that). And I wouldn't be resistant if Nicola did write a sequel, I just don't think we need one... >> I would have felt the same way, except for that one page in which we learn that Company blew up the orbiting platform and the _Kurst_ took off. They then become a nasty threat that hangs over the people on the planet. When I read that part, I wondered if Nicola's editor asked her to put in a hook for a sequel. Otherwise, I see no need for any further explanations. The society stands on its own. I like a novel that leaves you with the feeling that the characters continue after the particular story you're reading is over. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:41:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG Comments: To: Jennifer Krauel In-Reply-To: <350C3EE7.5A500D38@actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: (snip) > Seems like the Ammonite discussion is winding down, although there's > still plenty of time left for discussion. Anybody out there lurking who > hasn't got around to commenting on the book, or on other people's > comments? Maybe. I'm still mulling it over. The more I think about *Ammonite* the more I like it. > I'd also like to ask for feedback on the overall discussion process. > For example, Pat suggested we proceed chapter-by-chapter rather than > diving right into overall conclusions. Would you prefer to do it that > way, or by section if applicable? Pat, how long does discussion remain > on each chapter before proceeding? I really enjoyed just jumping right in. I think a chapter by chapter process might slow things down a bit. I liked being able to share my ideas with others who have already finished the book and I also liked hearing what other people thought. I was pleasantly surprised at the diversity of viewpoints and how some people picked up on things that I hadn't noticed or thought about. > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > book discussion group coordinator > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:43:25 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Illegal immigrants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-13 10:40:23 EST, you write: << The fact that foreigners are equalized in name with extraterrestrials, I think, simply represents the conviction of many people that US contains a world in itself (which in many cases it does), and those from outside of it could be as well from another planet. >> People tend to be like this no matter where they're from. Talk to a New Yorker, and you'll find out that the rest of the world is merely a suburb of New York. A Bostonian lets you know that Boston is the center of the galaxy. And I have heard more than one Britisher snort the term "foreigner" with elegant contempt when referring to non-Brits! I've also heard that the name of almost any tribal people for themselves means "The People"--for example, the Navajo self-name Dineh. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:15:20 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: looking to discuss Elgin NATIVE TONGUE & learn Laadan Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, Mavele Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reader sent in this note & is interested in the below: >Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:19:58 -0800 >Subject: Fem SF Web Feedback > >----------------------------------------------- >subject = Fem SF Web Feedback >recipient = femsfweb@uic.edu >confirm = http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/feedbackresponse.html >a_name = Mavele >b_email = herrick@itis.com >c_whoami = feminist >c_whoami = feminist >d_i_found_this_page_by = skipping merrily from site to site >e_commenttype = a suggestion >f_my_comments_are = I'm looking for women to discuss Suzette Hayden Elgin's Native Tongue series, and perhaps to work together on learning Laadan. If interested, please email me. Or if you've just read the books, I'd like to know if I'm the only one!! >I'm not sure if this is where this posting belongs or not, but hey! >ez_bullboard = bulletin board OK >g_respond_to_me = no rush > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 06:12:29 -0800 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: looking to discuss Elgin NATIVE TONGUE & learn Laadan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura Quilter wrote: > > Reader sent in this note & is interested in the below: > > >Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:19:58 -0800 > >Subject: Fem SF Web Feedback > > > >----------------------------------------------- > >subject = Fem SF Web Feedback > >recipient = femsfweb@uic.edu > >confirm = http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/feedbackresponse.html > >a_name = Mavele > >b_email = herrick@itis.com > >c_whoami = feminist > >c_whoami = feminist > >d_i_found_this_page_by = skipping merrily from site to site > >e_commenttype = a suggestion > >f_my_comments_are = I'm looking for women to discuss Suzette Hayden > Elgin's Native Tongue series, and perhaps to work together on learning > Laadan. If interested, please email me. Or if you've just read the books, > I'd like to know if I'm the only one!! > >I'm not sure if this is where this posting belongs or not, but hey! > >ez_bullboard = bulletin board OK > >g_respond_to_me = no rush > > > > Actually, this sounds like fun...how do we set something up for this? This might go longer than the regular book discussion group though. And, Suzette delurks here sometimes. later, Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:13:57 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG Comments: To: Jennifer Krauel In-Reply-To: <350C3EE7.5A500D38@actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > > I'd also like to ask for feedback on the overall discussion process. > For example, Pat suggested we proceed chapter-by-chapter rather than > diving right into overall conclusions. Would you prefer to do it that > way, or by section if applicable? Pat, how long does discussion remain > on each chapter before proceeding? About a week on the Heyer and Bujold list, but they don't do one chapter at a time, they do the first 3 or whatever seems a natural break. This also helps give us a sense of the author's structure. I'm very pleased with that format.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:11:13 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: BDG process Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would cast my vote for discussion to continue as it has been, rather than with a chapter by chapter process. I'm sorry to have been too harried ot really contribute to _Ammonite_, since I didn't get to reread it and only really remembered the barest details, but am looking forward to the _Dreamsnake_ discussion. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:20:32 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: [Fwd: [*FSFFU*] BDG] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C69CE2C47D13584B16E75AFA" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C69CE2C47D13584B16E75AFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------C69CE2C47D13584B16E75AFA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com ([198.81.17.42]) by mail.actioneer.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA238 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:16:18 -0800 Received: from WaterLuv@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id WZPQa04959 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:13:20 -0500 (EST) From: WaterLuv Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:13:20 EST To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 In a message dated 98-03-15 16:24:28 EST, you write: > Are there any questions you'd like to put to Nicola about the book? For > example: did she have in mind a sequel, as some have wondered? The intended role of the GOths in the book seems to have stirred the most speculation. I'd love to hear about that straight from the horse's mouth. Of course, I'd like to hear if she plans a sequel, as well. I thoroughly enjoyed reading part 1 and would be very pleased to think she'll tell us what happens when the dreaded Company returns. Jim --------------C69CE2C47D13584B16E75AFA-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:46:03 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Web Rings [was:Re: [*FSFFU*] looking to discuss Elgin NATIVE TONGUE & learn Laadan ] In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980315231433.00eaf610@pop.igc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Misreading the original message slightly, I thought, Whoa, cool, a feminist Web Ring, maybe I'll join it!... ...so I moseyed over to the Web Ring site and searched on "feminist," and I found it a little distressing. Out of 24 sites (23 if you don't count "The ring for men that dont likes femnists... " -- I didn't see a single one that I thought would be the least bit interested in having my site join it. Not that I thought they'd be hostile (most of them... there _is_ the one that appears to be "anti-" damnear everything), just that they wouldn't be interested, in writing, in fiction, in feminist literature, in sf. My nascent html skills aren't up to running a web ring, but a feminist literature web ring is something that might be cool. It might even be a tool to bridge the gap between mainstream feminist lit and feminist sf. What does anybody else think? Vonda On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:15:20 -0800, Laura Quilter wrote: >Reader sent in this note & is interested in the below: > >>Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:19:58 -0800 >>Subject: Fem SF Web Feedback ... ***** http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Illegal immigrants Weren't psychiatrists once called "alienists"? >The only context in which I have heard the term "alien" used to >describe >another human is in the phrase "illegal alien", which means the same >thing as "illegal immigrant". It is not a noun that is used by most >Americans outside of the "being from outer space" meaning, though its >adjectival meaning is nearly identical to that of the word "strange" >or >the word "foreign". > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: female British writers of dystopia On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:36:33 +1100 Julieanne Le Comte writes: >At 13:19 13/03/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Does anyone know British (contemporary) women sketching dystopian >>scenarios in literature. I'm pursuing my PhD in Austria and am >>desperately looking for any hints on that kind of information, i.e. >book >>titles >> > (I'm sorry this is so vague, but if I don't record half a thought it may vanish completely.) P.D. James: something like "Children of Men" (??) ; and I'm not even sure that my memory/impression of its dystopian content is correct; I enjoy her while I'm reading, but she doesn't stick in my mind, and it was a while ago. Somebody mentioned Zoe Fairbairns "Benefit", of which I do retain a modicum; very interesting in view of the current concern with changing the welfare setup. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:54:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: a newbie saying hello Read it (several times, being a Tepper junkie) and enjoyed it; but it did feel as though it should have been part of one of her trilogies. Maybe it will be, eventually. On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:56:40 PST juno minerva writes: >Hi there everyone. >I am new here. I have not been able to read all the mail yet. I am >working on it. I am reading Sheri Tepper's Plague of Angels. I was >wondering if anyone has read it and could give me some ideas on it. I >was doing my BA in women's studies in Ontario in 1991 part time. It >started to get too expensive for me though. I miss the discussion on >things that we read. So I would love to hear thoughts on this book. I >must tell you that I am only at the part where Orphan has just left >the >village. So please dont give too much away. . >A bio: I am a 46 year old married woman with a daughter 23 and son 21. >I >work full time. Nice to meet you all. >Thanks. >Junominerva > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:51:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jean richards Subject: Re: a newbie saying hello MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too am a Tepper Junkie (recent) I would like to know more about her. I am not in school nor am I studying anything in particular. I just ran across one of her books and found myself enthralled. Am I correct in assuming she started to publish in her later years, is she writing anything at present? I only know what I have read in author's bio. published at the end of her books. I would like to know more. I am fascinated with her thinking. thanks, Jean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:26:11 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: BDG: Ammonite sequel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just for the record: in her interviews and elsewhere (see the "Ask Nicola" section of her website), Griffith has repeatedly and firmly stated that she does not intend a sequel to Ammonite. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:28:16 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: Re: Web Rings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-16 17:45:53 EST, you write: << My nascent html skills aren't up to running a web ring, but a feminist literature web ring is something that might be cool. It might even be a tool to bridge the gap between mainstream feminist lit and feminist sf. What does anybody else think? Vonda >> What is a web ring? This does sound interesting, but I don't fully understand what is being proposed. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:13:32 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daphne Bartash Subject: Re: Web Rings Content-Type: text/plain Web rings are a group of homepages/web sites linked together. I manage several of these, so I'm quite familiar with them. If you are curious and would like to learn more go to: http://www.webring.org I'd be happy to start one, but I'd like to hear approximately how many sites would be on it, which will give me an idea of the time involved. In Light, SoulStar GeoCities Athens Community Leader The stars are shining upon us.*.*.*.*.and LOVE is all that matters. ********************************************************************** CourseWorks - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/8900 Celestia - http://www.serve.com/celestia {StarStreamz, StarCastle, StarHaven, StarKeep, & Mythic Constellations} ********************************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Athens Exposition - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1111 Elysium Resource Center - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9009 Academy/1000 Block House- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1000 Athens Community Leaders - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9999 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Get Wolf products - http://www.msw.com.au/cgi-bin/msw/entry?id=3614 ********************************************************************** "I am not weak, but strong. I am not helpless, but powerful. I am not limited, but unlimited. I am not doubtful, but certain. I am not an illusion, but a reality. I cannot see in darkness, but in light." from A Course in Miracles ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:14:14 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Web Rings In-Reply-To: <19980317161332.25966.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Daphne, I for one would join it. Best, Vonda On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:13:32 CST, Daphne Bartash wrote: >Web rings are a group of homepages/web sites linked together. I manage >several of these, so I'm quite familiar with them. If you are curious >and would like to learn more go to: >http://www.webring.org > >I'd be happy to start one, but I'd like to hear approximately how many >sites would be on it, which will give me an idea of the time involved. > >In Light, >SoulStar >GeoCities Athens Community Leader > >The stars are shining upon us.*.*.*.*.and LOVE is all that matters. >********************************************************************** >CourseWorks - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/8900 >Celestia - http://www.serve.com/celestia >{StarStreamz, StarCastle, StarHaven, StarKeep, & Mythic Constellations} >********************************************************************** >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >Athens Exposition - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1111 >Elysium Resource Center - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9009 >Academy/1000 Block House- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1000 >Athens Community Leaders - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9999 >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >Get Wolf products - http://www.msw.com.au/cgi-bin/msw/entry?id=3614 >********************************************************************** >"I am not weak, but strong. >I am not helpless, but powerful. >I am not limited, but unlimited. >I am not doubtful, but certain. >I am not an illusion, but a reality. >I cannot see in darkness, but in light." > from A Course in Miracles > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ***** http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:13:45 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Web Rings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What Daphne said. If you mosey over to my home page (see .sig) and go down to the bottom, you'll see two links into web rings -- SFWA and Authors Ring. SFWA started their ring because virtually all the "SF" or "Sci Fi" sites are devoted to media science fiction, not printed fiction. Anyway, you can get an idea of them by playing with those links. And if you go to the url Daphne lists, you can search on different topics, looking for a ring that you're interested in. If your web page fits it, you can apply to join it, if you want. In the course of my volunteer sfwa job of hunting down links to sfwa members web pages, I discovered a number of web rings devoted to the work of particular writers -- Andre Norton and Anne McCaffrey are the ones that come first to mind. I thought that was kind of cool. Vonda On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:28:16 EST, Kmfriello wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-16 17:45:53 EST, you write: > ><< My nascent html skills aren't up to running a web > ring, but a feminist literature web ring is > something that might be cool. It might even be a > tool to bridge the gap between mainstream feminist > lit and feminist sf. What does anybody else think? > > Vonda >> > >What is a web ring? This does sound interesting, but I don't fully understand >what is being proposed. ***** http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:28:10 -0600 Reply-To: mcg.home@worldnet.att.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Charles or Rose McGuire Subject: Re: a newbie saying hello MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jean richards wrote: > > I too am a Tepper Junkie (recent) I would like to know more about her. I am > not in school nor am I studying anything in particular. I just ran across > one of her books and found myself enthralled. Am I correct in assuming she > started to publish in her later years, is she writing anything at present? I > only know what I have read in author's bio. published at the end of her > books. I would like to know more. I am fascinated with her thinking. > thanks, > Jean I'm also just beginning to discover Tepper. My son lent me a copy of "The Gate to Women's Country", and told me that I would like it. He was right. I would also like to more about her. Anyone? Thanks. Rose ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:35:32 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kirsten Cowan Subject: Intro and ? Hi folks. Just signed on after hunting around on the web for info about Elizabeth A. Lynn, the mysteriously vanished author. I must confess that one of my foremost reasons for hooking up to this was to a)find out what the hell is up with her and if it's possible for me to contact her in some way (thereby nagging her to write more mind-blowing stories) and b)to talk with other Tornor/Sardonyx Sector freaks. I don't really have a great fem. SF library, just a dozen plus well-worn chestnuts (Piercy, Butler). The future utopian, gender and race demolished or fundamentally altered just lights me up. Looking forward to conversations with fellow freaks! Kirsten. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:12:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: sf and real life Comments: To: Charles or Rose McGuire In-Reply-To: <350EF8FA.40E6@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have a question about something that often comes to my mind and I wonder if anyone else has thought of it. Since everyone here seems to be a sf fan like myself, you are probably aware that many things originally desribed in sf novels later became everyday reality. E.g. travel to the Moon, submarines, laser, etc., etc. It is also argued that many of those inventions were in fact prompted by a theme in literature. What I'd like to know if whether anyone here has ever seen science fiction as something more than written fantasy, but as something that could and should be implemented? In other words, that it would give you ideas for your own real life? For example, several years ago, I read a short story about a corporation that specialized in solving problems, kind of like spin doctors for hire, who dealt with everything from industrial espionage to marital conflicts to walking one's dog. When I read it, I thought that this would be my dream job if such company existed. It would also match my experience of continuosly getting myself out of impossible situations that normally got people killed :) . I'm actually thinking of starting a company like that myself someday, if no one else does. Another sf idea I like is human cloning. I would like to have a cloned baby some day, and I would even give money to research in that direction (that is when I have enough money). Other sf ideas that people have tried to implement were the pacifist common-property communities, in-vitro fertilization, and artificial intelligence. Oh, yeah, and a communist state. My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? And was there anything from science fiction world that you tried to see if it worked in real life? Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:28:28 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daphne Bartash Subject: Re: Web Rings Content-Type: text/plain *s* I'll see what I can come up with.... In Light, Daphne aka SoulStar GeoCities Athens Community Leader The stars are shining upon us.*.*.*.*.and LOVE is all that matters. ********************************************************************** CourseWorks - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/8900 LightStream - http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/8480 Celestia - http://www.serve.com/celestia {StarStreamz, StarCastle, StarHaven, StarKeep, Mythic Constellations} ********************************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Athens Exposition- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1111 Elysium Resource Center- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9009 Academy/1000 Block House- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1000 Athens Community Leaders- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9999 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Get Wolf products - http://www.msw.com.au/cgi-bin/msw/entry?id=3614 ********************************************************************** "I am not weak, but strong. I am not helpless, but powerful. I am not limited, but unlimited. I am not doubtful, but certain. I am not an illusion, but a reality. I cannot see in darkness, but in light." from A Course in Miracles ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Whipple Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Marina wrote: > My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in > science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? > And was there anything from science fiction world that you tried to see > if it worked in real life? Anarres, the planet/society in LeGuin's _The Dispossessed: an ambiguous utopia_ (the subtitle is important). It's an attempt to create a planned society based on anarchist principles (though as the book discusses, it's not without some governing, overt and covert). At the time the novel takes place, the society is about 200 years old (the original settlers came to the planet with the intent of creating the society, as an uneasy resolution to revolution on their home planet). This is probably my favorite novel, and it has definitely had an impact on my life, my priorities, my values. However, until we terraform the moon, it's not something I can see implementing. It's very hard to imagine a completely non-capitalist but high tech society (i.e. with email! ;-) existing on this commodified planet. Callenbach's _Ecotopia_ is one version of what that might look like. And as for terraforming, I'd say the Red Mars movement in Robinson's Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy has made me wonder about making such radical changes in lunar or martian or other environments. I do see that some planned communities, co-housing groups, and other folks have made efforts in line with the principles on which Anarres was founded. And I would like to be part of a group like that someday. *************** ******************** Heather Whipple Humanities Librarian hwhipple@script.lib.indiana.edu Swarthmore College ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Aurore Subject: Re: sf and real life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in >science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? >And was there anything from science fiction world that you tried to see >if it worked in real life? In "Always Coming Home" (1985) by Ursula Le Guin, she has a cyber City of the Mind from which humans can access all sorts of technical and cultural information through Exchanges (community computer terminals). And here we all are. Aurore ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 04:46:58 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anita Easton Subject: BDG: Leifin, being a god and insanity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for getting involved in the discussion so late :) This is kind of a ramble about things that have stuck in my mind about Ammonite. First off, Leifin and the Goth. This all made me feel really sick and I had nasty dreams about it that night. I first reated to it by thinking how completely inhuman her behaviour had been, and then turned it over nd over in my mind. The first thing that struck me was that I wouldn't have been so sickened if she had done that to a human, I guess I've become so enured to voience against humans :( The second thing was that I wondered whether I would've been less distressed if Leifin had been male and I honestly don't think I would've. I think it was partly that there was so little development of Leifin's character, so I simply couldn't find a framework that made her actions make any sense. Finally I thought about the place of her actions in the story, and thought of how hwhat she did mirrored what we see the Company doing, and wanting to do. Her behaviour is so similar to the Marghe's fear that the Company would wipe out the virus and thus the society on GP, without a second thought motivated only by profit. Having thought about that for a while I was really glad it was in the story. It would have been so easy to make a society of women into a utopia threatened by the patriarchal culture, but having flawed women, and a woman who so clearly contains all that we see as terrible in the patriarchal gives the story much more depth IMHO. On a completely different note, and having recently read Ursula Le Guin's "Dancing to Ganam" (in _Fisherman of the Inland Sea_) I wondered what effects of Marghe being accepted as speaking for the Death Spirit by the Echraidhe and Briogannon will be. How will this effect the tribes? Will she keep some kind of relationship with them? How would it effect her? Finally, and this is a personal grizzle, Uaithne's insanity really bugs me. I don't think it was necessary for her to be mad, and in some ways that takes away from the story. To me it makes the tribes' behaviour more about one person than about the tribes' situation. It also bug me because it makes it easy to see the problem as one of mental illness, rather than of the society as a whole. Anyway, I enjoyed Ammonite, and I loved _Slow River_ so I'm happy :) Anita ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:12:38 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: IldikoPaul Subject: Re: Intro and ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi and welcome, I asked the same questions you did a few months ago and the people on this list were kind enough to help me. I also was lucky enough to take a trip to Chicago and visited Stars Our Destination while i was there. I spoke with the owner of the shop who directed me to pick up that months Locus, lo and behold an article on my favorite author Elizabeth A. Lynn. She has been living and working, just hasn't been inspired to write another book. A new book by her should be out soon, the article mentioned something about a release date in the spring. I can't seem to get my hands on the magazine so i can't tell you what month the article was in, maybe check and see if they have a web page or something. Have you checked out any of Elizabeth's children's books? I paid dearly and got a hold of one. Another great one is A Different Light, ring any bells? They named a few book stores after her novel. One is based near me here in NYC. Hope this helps. ildiko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:00:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: Re: BDG: Leifin, being a god and insanity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I just didn't react to the situation as one of Uaithne's insanity. That she wasn't entirely complete after her experiences with the Briogannon I accepted as part of her past history, and it this was classed as insane by Marghe (still the SEC rep at that point)... it didn't seem to make a large difference in how the Echraidhe treated Uaithne, except we are told that Aoife's motivation was to watch Uaithne more carefully. So when the 1 then 2 tribes fell in behind Uaithne, I didn't see it as being about following an "insane" person. Sanity is measured by culture/society and it seemed somewhat that the Echraide didn't see Uaithne as "insane" but rather a sort of "blessed" person filled with the death spirit, the way that medieval christian raptures can be "diagnosed" by current medicine as xx disorder, but were seen by contemporaries as legitimate expressions of religion. Just my take on it, but then I didn't spend any of the novel thinking about Uaithne as insane. misha bernardm@colorado.edu >Finally, and this is a personal grizzle, Uaithne's insanity really >bugs me. I don't think it was necessary for her to be mad, and in some >ways that takes away from the story. To me it makes the tribes' >behaviour more about one person than about the tribes' situation. It >also bug me because it makes it easy to see the problem as one of >mental illness, rather than of the society as a whole. > >Anyway, I enjoyed Ammonite, and I loved _Slow River_ so I'm happy :) > >Anita > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:04:22 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Elizabeth Lynn / Sheri Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kirsten Cowan said: > >Hi folks. Just signed on after hunting around on the web for info about >Elizabeth A. Lynn, the mysteriously vanished author. I must confess that >one of my foremost reasons for hooking up to this was to a)find out what >the hell is up with her and if it's possible for me to contact her in >some way (thereby nagging her to write more mind-blowing stories) and >b)to talk with other Tornor/Sardonyx Sector freaks. I don't really have >a great fem. SF library, just a dozen plus well-worn chestnuts (Piercy, >Butler). The future utopian, gender and race demolished or fundamentally >altered just lights me up. Looking forward to conversations with fellow >freaks! >Kirsten. > Kirsten: Elizabeth Lynn's first book in about a decade, _Dragon's Winter_, should be on your local store's bookshelves now (if you live where you can get the UK March release or the US April release). I am about 1/3 of he way through it, and not yet ready to review it, but ready to recommend it. I believe her US publisher intends to reissue the backlist as well. Sheri Tepper has a lot of fans on this list, from what I've seen, but she has also been the subject of a lot of discussion, which might be why folks aren't jumping in with comments -- many have been made before. I realise this can be hard on newbies, and suggest either checking out the archives or Laura's page on Tepper, or asking specific questions rather than for general comments on her work. Hope this helps. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:07:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mark Schebel Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is actually a really good question. In fact, as you may or may not know, many critics of SF follow the convention that SF does not stand for Science Fiction, rather Speculative Fiction...in other words, the word science has somewhat lost it's meaning for the genre (Esther Friedners' "Death that the Librarian" comes to mind)...but that the works in the SF field are mainly speculating on what will happen. Hmmmm...as for my own opinions of what will become real: Gibson's "Neuromancer"--to an extent this society will become more familiar I think. Ray Bradbury's _The Martian Chronicles_--well, maybe not exactly again, but I think Bradbury wrote the book knowing that parts of it will become real. Maureen F. McHugh's _China Mountain Zhang_--I can pinpoint exactly what I think will become reality, but while reaing the novel, I constantly felt a realism that was quite beautiful. --mark On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Marina wrote: > I have a question about something that often comes to my mind and I > wonder if anyone else has thought of it. Since everyone here seems to be > a sf fan like myself, you are probably aware that many things originally > desribed in sf novels later became everyday reality. E.g. travel to the > Moon, submarines, laser, etc., etc. It is also argued that many of those > inventions were in fact prompted by a theme in literature. > What I'd like to know if whether anyone here has ever seen science > fiction as something more than written fantasy, but as something that > could and should be implemented? In other words, that it would give you > ideas for your own real life? > > For example, several years ago, I read a short story about a corporation > that specialized in solving problems, kind of like spin doctors for hire, > who dealt with everything from industrial espionage to marital > conflicts to walking one's dog. When I read it, I thought that this > would be my dream job if such company existed. It would also match my > experience of continuosly getting myself out of impossible situations > that normally got people killed :) . I'm actually thinking of starting a > company like that myself someday, if no one else does. Another sf idea I > like is human cloning. I would like to have a cloned baby some day, and > I would even give money to research in that direction (that is when I > have enough money). Other sf ideas that people have tried to implement were > the pacifist common-property communities, in-vitro fertilization, and > artificial intelligence. Oh, yeah, and a communist state. > > My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in > science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? > And was there anything from science fiction world that you tried to see > if it worked in real life? > > > Marina > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > happens to be selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Schebel "You know I hate to ask... wage@hellyeah.com But are friends electric?" www.hellyeah.com/slackers/wage -gary numan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:06:23 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Web Rings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-17 16:16:04 EST, you write: << SFWA and Authors Ring. SFWA started their ring because virtually all the "SF" or "Sci Fi" sites are devoted to media science fiction, not printed fiction. >> I've heard that many young people in this country are not even aware of printed SF--they think "science fiction" means stuff like Aliens and The X- Files. That's pretty sad. But then, I was 27 before I discovered it. Can you imagine the wonderful next few years I had catching up on everything? That was in the late sixties. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:02:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Marina wrote: > > My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in > science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? > And was there anything from science fiction world that you tried to see > if it worked in real life? > > > Marina > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > happens to be selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > I think we're on one right now - who'd a thunk it ten years ago (outside of SF and Unix fans) that people could communicate world-wide without using hideously expensive long-distance telephone? Or access information stored anywhere on earth? How many ship's librarians reluctantly created an actual print copy of a book stored in the ships data banks for a bored passenger during a voyage of several light years? People are already referring to printed material now as "dead-tree form". Now if they would just accelerate that schedule on getting matter-transmitters going . . . Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:50:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Denise Borgen Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Marina wrote: > > For example, several years ago, I read a short story about a corporation > that specialized in solving problems, kind of like spin doctors for hire, > who dealt with everything from industrial espionage to marital > conflicts to walking one's dog. When I read it, I thought that this > would be my dream job if such company existed. It would also match my > experience of continuosly getting myself out of impossible situations > that normally got people killed :) . I'm actually thinking of starting a > company like that myself someday, if no one else does. Another sf idea I Sounds Like 'We also walk dogs' by Robert HeinleinD> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I COULD MURDER A CURRY ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Denise Borgen borgen@eskimo.com ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:43:54 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erica J Kline Subject: Sheri Tepper (...was newbie saying hello) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have read many, loved some.. Awakeners & Sideshow I don't remember (sometimes I keep good records, sometimes I don't, very few books make enough of an impression that I actually remeber them without notes!) Beauty and Gibsons Decline & Fall were excellent - really examined myths, feminism, and good-vs-evil. Grass & After Long Silence were excellent sort-of classical sf but with good characterization and a femininst slant. Plague of Angels was a very enjoyable post-apocalyptic-earth novel with several different cultures which could serve as anthropological studies of how to structure societies. Any I've missed? I think I've done a pretty good job of finding them, and that was in the days before I had Internet Access (seems like the dark ages now). Bye for now...Erica ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:38:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper (...was newbie saying hello) If you ever come across a copy of "Jinian Footseer", grab it. It's one of the nine titles of the True Game series, but IMHOP it stands beautifully alone. And if you've read the others, that just enhances the pleasure. I would also very strongly recommend "Raising the Stones" (middle title of the trilogy including "Grass" and "Sideshow") On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:43:54 -0800 Erica J Kline writes: >I have read many, loved some.. > >Awakeners & Sideshow I don't remember (sometimes I keep good records, >sometimes I don't, very few books make enough of an impression that I >actually remeber them without notes!) > >Beauty and Gibsons Decline & Fall were excellent - really examined >myths, >feminism, and good-vs-evil. > >Grass & After Long Silence were excellent sort-of classical sf but >with >good characterization and a femininst slant. > >Plague of Angels was a very enjoyable post-apocalyptic-earth novel >with >several different cultures which could serve as anthropological >studies of >how to structure societies. > >Any I've missed? I think I've done a pretty good job of finding them, >and >that was in the days before I had Internet Access (seems like the dark >ages >now). > >Bye for now...Erica > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:12:34 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anita Easton Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite In-Reply-To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl"'s message of Fri, 13 Mar 1998 00:13:37 -0500 "Geoffrey D. Sperl" writes: > I actually thought the book stands quite nicely on its own, without a > sequel. I don't think GP has to become Pern, with all of its facets > explored and dissected (not to say I dislike that). And I wouldn't be I agree, and in many ways I think a sequel would diminish _Ammonite_. I personally like not knowing what happens next, it gives me a chance to imagine and explore the concepts on my own. I also can't see how a sequel could void either being about a utopia, or being a good vs evil struggle (with the return of the Company), I find both these styles pretty facile. It's one of the things i loved most about _Ammonite_, that it wasn't utopic, IMHO it allowed more depth and colour, and more exploration of the reality of human nature. Which brings me to anther thought I've been mulling over, are the inhabitants of GP human? Is the change brought about by the virus so fundamental that they become something-other-than-human? Anita ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: blue47@uky.campus.women's, lit.mci.net@sac-a.mp.campus.mci.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Blue Subject: delurking newbie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm (nominally) female, mid-twenties, halfway educated, hetero, rural, white, Appalachian, feminist, American, and blunt.. The third characteristic is the only one in which I had any say. I have a B.A. in philosophy and women's studies, and a Juris Doctorate. Just to give you an idea of what I'm like and how I write: I'm an insatiable reader, half of it serious and half of it not. I don't like _Moby Dick_ or anything else by Melville, most of Shakespeare or almost any Dickens. They are, in my never humble opinion, bad writers. Shakespeare was a dramatist, not a writer, so a play or movie is O.K., but why would anybody want to read him? >From the above example, you can tell I am not tactful. It's a character flaw that I can't seem to shake. I also state my opinions very forcefully, I'm told. I don't know any other way to state them and almost never feel as firm about something as my writing indicates. It's simply my writing style. Also, I have been enjoying the list and the discussions. The only comments I have are: 1) THANK GOD CHERRYH IS FINALLY GETTING TO WRITE A SEQUEL TO _CYTEEN_. (i feel strongly about that, how did you guess?) The funniest thing about Cherryh is that I only ever really like her novels with a female point of view. I know that I'm sexist, but I think it's more than that with her. 2) I have read most of Tepper's later works and only really loved _Gate to Women's Country_. The rest of them ranged from bad to acceptable in my subjective opinion. I've heard tons about her earlier stuff, but haven't found nary a trace of one of those books yet. 3) I very much enjoy books that explore gender relationships. I prefer sci-fi to fantasy, but that goes in cycles. It's almost time for another fantasy-mania to kick in. Or, maybe my romance reading is satisfying that particular quirk just now. I DON'T like horror, and I don't even read mystery any more. Yet, one of my favorite fictional characters is Anita Blake in Laurell K. Hamilton's novels. Read the first one when it came out in 1993 and am really surprised and not particularly gratified to see her gaining so much popularity recently. On the one hand, acceptance for great kick-ass female characters may signal a cultural change. On the other, what if it's just a Wonder Woman/Bionic Woman/Xena/Buffy oddity and we'll have another Reagonite '80's-type backlash later. How horrible. -- "All disasters, or an enormous proportion of them, are due to the dissoluteness of women." -Leo Tolstoy "I haven't read _War and Peace_, but that's a man's book anyway." -author Kaye Gibbons ___ remove "women's lit" to reply Blue 47/Annabel Leigh/Jhoto/RB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:05:33 -0500 Reply-To: blue47@uky.campus.women's, lit.mci.net@sac-a.mp.campus.mci.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Blue Subject: bdg: Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've lurked on the list for a month and a half. I think I finally have enough of the flavor to jump in. I'm (nominally) female, mid-twenties, halfway educated, hetero, rural, white, Appalachian, feminist, American, and blunt. The third characteristic is the only one in which I had any say. I purchased _Ammonite_ several months ago when I glommed the entire James Tiptree award list. However, I didn't like it. I am not terribly good at understanding what's going on in my own head, so it's hard to say why. For a while I thought it was because of prejudice. Yes, I am prejudiced. [Definition of prejudice: Something that isn't rational. So, don't try to talk me out of it.] Why do I want to read this novel about a bunch of lesbian women? My best friend is a homosexual, but I am not. Where is the interest for me? After reading all the posts and several reviews of this novel, I have a little bit more clarity about why I didn't like it. 1. the setting: I don't like novels that are set in technologically dry worlds. I am interested in the easy life that technology, or the fantasy equivalent -magic-, provides, not grit, dirt, heat, and pain. (The reason I avoid all novels with the word "Texas" in the title.) I didn't like _Jaran_, for exactly the same reason, though it is a very nice story. The fourth book of that series was more enjoyable, because most of the book was spent off-world. 2. I think part of the reason I didn't like it was because I am not a lesbian, so I needed some acknowledgment that being on Jeep meant giving up hetero sex. I tend to agree that the best explanation is that Marghe was a lesbian, but I still wanted to hear some discussion. Something. Part of this is due to, I am sure, prejudice. Though I try to eradicate it, vestiges of it still remain. Enough so a novel like this will get an initial negative reaction from me for no other reason. Then, I recognize what I'm doing and shame myself out of it. 3. not feminist: I didn't see the feminism here. Due to the constraints of the setting, the novel not only had no men, but no feminism. No activism. No dreamseekers for change. Not the type of change I associate with feminism anyway. How can reality be changed when a big part of reality is gone (males)? Yes, I recognize the good parts of the novel. All-female society does not equal utopia is very true and not often written about. However, I just couldn't like it. 4. sorta basic, "kill off all the men" storyline I read years ago by Russ and liked better. It seems sorta a cop-out, just to kill off an entire gender. I understand that this is an exploration of lesbian sf, to a certain extent. However, most of us don't live cloistered with no contact with males. To me, it's a cop-out. 5. virus is damned convenient, isn't it. FYI, I thought it was made by a human female. This isn't why I ended up not liking the novel, but other thoughts about or inspired by it. 1. losing her fingers was jarring, but (after some thought) I think it worked and I think it had significance to her character (not to the character) 2. why would the corporation blow up the station? If it has the kind of control where they would not be censored, morally or legally, for that, then wouldn't it have the kind of control that wouldn't need to do it in the first place. 3. if the corporation can travel to Jeep, then why can't they wear suits like they would on the Moon, for example, and exploit it that way? It's been a while since I read the novel (2 months), so I may be forgetting something like, oh, corporation desperately needed it for colonization or something. 4. I want something different, like a virus that rewrites the "Y" chromosome. Then we have old-fashioned "Y's" dying out, new "Y's" coming in, and the same old systems and belief patterns that the old "Y's" created and the new "Y's" will be indoctrinated in because that's the culture. As you can probably tell, I like character-driven stories. Another post to introduce myself is coming after. Or maybe before, depending on when my mail system gets it out. -- "All disasters, or an enormous proportion of them, are due to the dissoluteness of women." -Leo Tolstoy "I haven't read _War and Peace_, but that's a man's book anyway." -author Kaye Gibbons ___ remove "women's lit" to reply Blue 47/Annabel Leigh/Jhoto/RB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:07:41 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anita Easton Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite In-Reply-To: Daniel Krashin's message of Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:19:38 PST Daniel Krashin writes: > 2)I didn't have a problem with the idea of a planet full of women, but > I thought there was something a little dodgy about the way it was > set up. The scene at the beginning, where the medic doesn't even > look at the sexual orientation of someone who may spend the rest of her > life quarantines away from men, put me off a bit. Then, when Wasn't it Danner, the commander? I thought it made a lot of sense, and helped set up Danner's character. It was no business of Danner's what sexual orientation Marghe was and it was a good way to show both her ethical views and her relationship to the Company (who would care, if it gave them leverage). Anita ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:13:59 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anita Easton Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite In-Reply-To: "Geoffrey D. Sperl"'s message of Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:37:43 -0500 "Geoffrey D. Sperl" writes: > Look closer: the virus also kills the majority of women who land on the > planet. A very small percentage survives - perhaps all of the effects the I don't think so, early on (whle Marghe is in D sector) it says 80% recover, I seem to remember that later on someone says that they're not quite sure of the death rate, ebacsue some people are listed as missing, but that it's probably a bit over 20% for women. Anita ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- There's been some discussion here of Ammonite's alleged plot holes, regarding the virus and/or the Company. It seems to me that a man-less world with a marooned colony is the main premise of Ammonite, so how it became that way is not all that important. To me. What's important to me is how the premise is developed, not how it's justified. Though that's probably grating to the harder-SF crowd. Blue sez: > 2. I think part of the reason I didn't like it was because I > am not a lesbian, so I needed some acknowledgment that being > on Jeep meant giving up hetero sex. I'm not a lesbian either (obviously) but this didn't occur to me. As busy as everybody was in this novel, I wonder how they had time to think about sex at all. I can't quite imagine a scene like the one you describe in an all-male novel of, say, war or adventure. (And hey, look at Star Trek: Next Gen, where most of the characters gave up sex for years at a time...) 3. not feminist: I didn't > see the feminism here. Due to the constraints of the setting, the novel not > only had no men, but no feminism. No activism. No dreamseekers for change. > Not the type of change I associate with feminism anyway. How can reality be > changed when a big part of reality is gone (males)? An interesting thought. Is this a feminist novel? Can feminism exist without men? I would say yes, since in a wider sense feminism is a philosophy, not merely a movement. If Ammonite demonstrates the principles of feminism, it can be feminist without any characters demonstrating opposing principles, eh? Aside: Just found an old SF novel, "World Without Women" by Day Keene and Leonard Pruyn (Gold Medal pb, 1960). Sorta like Ammonite in reverse, with only a few hundred women left on Earth after some disaster having to do with nuclear testing. Needless to say (since it was written in 1960) the remaining men don't handle things as diplomatically as Griffith's characters, and the remaining women are all placed under armed guard with their husbands or whatever and given strong hints that they should get pregnant ASAP. Skimming through it, I detect plenty of additional machinations and kidnapping and such, but not much SF development beyond the initial idea. (The women apparently never get the idea that this may be their chance to take over.) -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Why do I want to read >this novel about a bunch of lesbian women? My best friend >is a homosexual, but I am not. Where is the interest for >me? Why would I want to read a novel about a bunch of lesbian women? After all, a male would be the furthest removed from that point of view... But, as I see it, these aren't a bunch of lesbian women. On GP there's no recourse for human biology to take if the race is to perpetuate itself...it doesn't make these women lesbians (it doesn't make them non-lesbians either, for that matter) >1. the setting: I don't like novels that are set in >technologically dry worlds. I am interested in the easy >life that technology, or the fantasy equivalent -magic-, >provides, not grit, dirt, heat, and pain. (The reason I >avoid all novels with the word "Texas" in the title.) But what about the fact that the reliance on technology giving us the easy life put these characters in the situation they find themselves? >2. I think part of the reason I didn't like it was because I >am not a lesbian, so I needed some acknowledgment that being >on Jeep meant giving up hetero sex. But it also means giving up your entire view of life and rebuilding it from the ground up. I didn't really see a giving up of hetero sex - I saw a different society that does things differently than ours.... >3. not feminist: I didn't see the feminism here. Two words: the Company. You have to look at the larger context of the piece to see the feminism. While I, as an editor and a writer, don't agree with the construction of various things in the book, I think it pulls feminism off in a very loud way. The characters, for me, don't really represent the sexes, but the genders in our society. The technological is masculine, the natural is feminine. Sure, it's a recurring them throughout many feminist books, SF and otherwise, but it is there. I don't think it would hurt to view these characters in terms of gender-types, not sex-types. IMHO, Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:24:06 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: sf and real life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks. newbie here. 36 year old female (non fiction) writer. British. Love SF, don't like fantasy. Argumentative intellectual type. You get the picture. Lurked for about a week, told myself I should wait longer to post, couldn't resist. Nuff said. > On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Marina wrote: > > > > > My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in > > science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? > > And was there anything from science fiction world that you tried to see > > if it worked in real life? great question I sometimes walk around almost in a daze thinking 'wow, this is the future and I lived to see it'. When I was a kid I used to read my dad's SF books, and wonder what life would be like in (say) 1998. And here I am! I write books about computers, use the Internet for research, participate in mailing lists. Who would have thought it? And one idea that I wish would come true? Darn, I've forgotten the book, I think it was written by a man. A female scientist releases a virus that massively boosts the immune/repair system of the body, so old age becomes healthier, but which makes people much less fertile. Kim Stanley Robinson has his Martian biologists develop a somewhat similar treatment but it needs a medical procedure - the contagious virus seems a better idea, would help more people. I *know* releasing viruses is a bad idea. What if (when) it mutated? But if I could wave a magic wand.. Alison PS are we going to start talking about Dreamsnake, or does that wait until the Ammonite discussion is finished? I'm perfectly happy either way, I'm really enjoying this list ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:58:21 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-19 02:16:17 EST, you write: > >2. I think part of the reason I didn't like it was because I > >am not a lesbian, so I needed some acknowledgment that being > >on Jeep meant giving up hetero sex. > > But it also means giving up your entire view of life and rebuilding it from > the ground up. I didn't really see a giving up of hetero sex - I saw a > different society that does things differently than ours.... > In defense of Lady Blue's original comment that she found the silent migration to same-sex orientation jarring, I have to say that this element of Ammonite bothered me too. I think in reality that such a smooth transition could only occur if all the colonists were homosexual before being sent to Jeep. I took it as part of the mindset of Nicola Griffith, who is, herself, a lesbian. In her mind, it never occurred to lament the absence of men in the world she'd created. Pas de problem. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:59:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Marsh Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi. Elizabeth here, also delurking for the discussion of what I thought was a very interesting book, one of the better I've read in quite a while. I found the whole sexual orientation aspect to have been resolved on two levels. The first is the internal plot aspect. No one went down there expecting to be cut off from male company (except the three technician/doctor types on the station and they only went to the surface to avoid certain death at the hands of the company). Marghe was vacinated (sp?) to prevent this and also we do get a fair amount of sole searching from here that reveals that this is her "dream opportunity" as an anthropologist and she goes *despite* the danger. The Mirrors go where they are told to go, like good chain of command following military types, and still you see some actively resist the idea of spending the rest of their lives on Jeep. But also, Ms. Griffith seems to be specifically examining a universe that excludes men. The counterpoint that comes to mind is Moby Dick. What I really found fascinating about the novel was the whole rexamination of the "journey of the hero" in this single sexed context. The differences seemed profound between this journey and what I would call the standard. So much of the conflict and self exploration was focused on the idea of community building and family ... this woman's journey amoung women was about bonds and less about proving personal worth. Or perhaps I would rather say she proves her worth and achieves her status as hero by working with in social bonds and not by her own personal strength. This seems to me to be quite a difference, and what makes the novel clearly feminist. I think it will be interesting to compare Marghe's development with that of Snake in "Dreamsnake (which I haven't read, yet I believe also contains the "journey" element). Elizabeth On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Anita Easton wrote: > Daniel Krashin writes: > > > 2)I didn't have a problem with the idea of a planet full of women, but > > I thought there was something a little dodgy about the way it was > > set up. The scene at the beginning, where the medic doesn't even > > look at the sexual orientation of someone who may spend the rest of her > > life quarantines away from men, put me off a bit. Then, when > > Wasn't it Danner, the commander? > > I thought it made a lot of sense, and helped set up Danner's > character. It was no business of Danner's what sexual orientation > Marghe was and it was a good way to show both her ethical views and > her relationship to the Company (who would care, if it gave them > leverage). > > Anita > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:10:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hm, I didn't see the transition as smooth... just something that had been partially accomplished before the start of the book, and I was given the impression somewhere in the book that it was difficult for some women still (after 5 years) to accept a life/world without men (and that some would prefer to take their chances in decontamination). I don't think it necessary to have even such an apparently smooth transition (which I didn't see... thinking we just didn't focus on the dissatisfied people) to be started with a group of lesbian colonists. I think that the constant daily contact/context of women being the only people around and the "human" need/desire for touch and love would be enough for a large number of women to "naturally" form close relationships with other women. Whether this leads to sexual contact would then be between individual women, while some may stop (feeling more comfortable with the barriers) at a companionable, touchy, sort of adoptive family. A continuum of experiences, where the novel exposed to us only a few. just my thoughts misha bernardm@colorado.edu >In defense of Lady Blue's original comment that she found the silent >migration >to same-sex orientation jarring, I have to say that this element of Ammonite >bothered me too. I think in reality that such a smooth transition could only >occur if all the colonists were homosexual before being sent to Jeep. >Jim > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:44:28 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Le Anne Fossmeyer Subject: FW: [*FSFFU*] bdg: Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In Response to: Jim writes< > In defense of Lady Blue's original comment that she found the silent > migration > to same-sex orientation jarring, I have to say that this element of > Ammonite > bothered me too. I think in reality that such a smooth transition > could only > occur if all the colonists were homosexual before being sent to Jeep. > I took > it as part of the mindset of Nicola Griffith, who is, herself, a > lesbian. In > her mind, it never occurred to lament the absence of men in the world > she'd > created. Pas de problem. > > Jim> > IMHO, humans are a whole lot more adaptable than you're giving us credit for, and we can adapt (even our sexual behavior and emotional responses) very quickly. Straight men have sex with and strong emotional commitments to other men when those straight men are locked in a prison and told they won't be leaving for years. Same goes for women inmates. It doesn't take long either--months, weeks. For most people, I think, sex, physical affection, and emotional attachment are things they really can't do without (or can't live satisfactorily without). Some can lead solitary or asexual lives, but face it, sex is sex. It's a primal, instinctual need. Puritanical Americans try to reduce or deny the power of human sexuality, but look at us now. We're sooo sex-obsessed. My friend's great-aunt just came out as a lesbian at the age of 73. She lived a relatively happy, married life, completely unaware of her sexuality. In her world, homosexuality wasn't discussed and it wasn't an option. She did what was expected of her and lived a very sheltered life. Then, she had lunch with my friend and her lesbian step-sister. The step-sister was talking about her girl friend and their relationship when the aunt interrupted her with questions about what kind of relationship is this anyway? how did this happen? what were they going to do when they had to get married? what do you mean this is your marriage? we didn't encourage such girlish notions when I was a kid, you're supposed to forget about those silly ideas--that's not how you're supposed to react to those feelings, and so on. Well, needless to say (since I already said it), the great-aunt finally put two and two together about herself. A funny aside is that she'd thought everyone felt the way she did, that everyone had homosexual feelings for their friends (although she never would have called it that), but you're supposed to put those things aside as adults. She thought that explained why there's such a strong division between men and women. Okay, my point is (and I do have one) if humans believe that only a certain set or range of actions are possible due to whatever unchangeable circumstances, humans can and will adapt their behaviors within the limits of possible actions to meet their needs. It's all circumstantial. LeAnne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:04:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG: Leifin, being a god and insanity In-Reply-To: <199803180446.EAA05030@kauri.vuw.ac.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Anita Easton wrote: (snip) > Finally, and this is a personal grizzle, Uaithne's insanity really > bugs me. I don't think it was necessary for her to be mad, and in some > ways that takes away from the story. To me it makes the tribes' > behaviour more about one person than about the tribes' situation. It > also bug me because it makes it easy to see the problem as one of > mental illness, rather than of the society as a whole. Uaithne's insanity was due to the marginal lifestyle of the tribe. They were becoming dangerously inbred and that combined with their harsh living conditions produced Uaithne's mental imbalance. Later in the story Thenike tells Marghe about another condition produced by inbreeding where they are unable to leave the place where they were born. They are unable to cope with anything that wasn't experienced by their ancestors. They could only tread on familiar ground. I don't think it was really necessary to make Uaithne insane but it did touch on the issues of genetics and interbreeding when there is only one sex. I thought it was interesting. > Anita > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:24:40 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Bowman Subject: Share Lodging for WisCon 22? I know it's still a couple months away but I just made reservations for the hotel in Madison for Memorial Day weekend. The name of the hotel escapes me right now but the rate is $83 per night for up to 4 people. I have Fri-Sat-Sun night reserved. Anyone interested in saving a couple bucks and sharing a room? Please respond to my individual email address and not to the list. Thanks. Joan Bowman jobowman@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:48:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: BDG: Shakespeare/bluntness/backlash On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:16:01 -0500 Blue writes: ... Shakespeare was a >dramatist, not a writer, so a play or movie is O.K., but why >would anybody want to read him? Well, he was/is a poet (prose and verse). And the plays are full of beautifully expressed perceptions. Unless you have perpetual access on demand to performance presentations, reading is a practical way of accessing the words. And the content is not without interest. "I don't see what the all the fuss is about Shakespeare. All he has done is string together a lot of very well-known quotations." (Approximate, from memory of source forgotten) .... > >>From the above example, you can tell I am not tactful. It's >a character flaw that I can't seem to shake. I also state >my opinions very forcefully, I'm told. I don't know any >other way to state them .... Go ahead and state them! But the occasional "in my opinion" may be optionally used to soften the edges if you have any qualms. On the one hand, >acceptance for great kick-ass female characters may signal a >cultural change. On the other, what if it's just a Wonder >Woman/Bionic Woman/Xena/Buffy oddity and we'll have another >Reagonite '80's-type backlash later. How horrible. > >-- Have you read Suzette Haden Elgin's "Native Tongue" re Reaganite backlash (sort of)? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:21:05 -0500 Reply-To: blue47@uky.campus.women's, lit.mci.net@sac-b.mp.campus.mci.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Blue Subject: Re: BDG: Shakespeare/bluntness/backlash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frances Green said: > Have you read Suzette Haden Elgin's "Native Tongue" re Reaganite backlash > (sort of)? > Yep. It ends kind of unresolved, how I remember it. (There was no exposition of the new culture, only the description of the subversion of the old.) I also don't buy into that language shapes psychology/culture type of idea. I believe it's more the other way around. Of course, the language may just have been the outer manifestation of a radically different cultural indoctrination. However, Ms. Elgin herself doesn't espouse that. > Well, he [Shakespeare] was/is a poet (prose and verse). And the plays are full of > beautifully expressed perceptions. > Unfortunately, I don't understand poetry. It's just not the way my brain is shaped, I think. Some poems, individually, I have understood and appreciated (hackneyed, but "The Way Not Taken," - by Robert Frost was it? - for example). But, poetry as a whole escapes me. And, poetry in archaic English is utterly beyond me. David Christenson said: > I wonder how they had time to think > about sex at all. I can't quite imagine a scene like the one you > describe in an all-male novel of, say, war or adventure. (And hey, look > at Star Trek: Next Gen, where most of the characters gave up sex for > years at a time...) > Sexuality is an integral part of a person. Any person. I don't read all-male novels. No, never. [Told you I was sexist] Also, ST:TNG isn't asexual, just prudish. (Check out some of the erotic fanfic on the web based in/on NCC 1701-D. It's sorta cute.) As far as I could tell, Riker was just one walking hormone. You'd've thunk Wesley had the honors. > Can feminism exist > without men? > Yes, maybe. If it's more than gender relations. Feminism is so undefined. I should've been more clear. However, I like to read about gender-liberated men. I hope it's clear what I mean when I say that. Geoffrey Sperl said: > But what about the fact that the reliance on technology giving us the easy > life put these characters in the situation they find themselves? > But this is a book. If I wanted grit, dirt, heat, and pain I'd go visit some friends who don't have running water. Or, take a walk through a denuded strip mine. Or go fishing in August. I don't want that sort of reality in my books. > But it also means giving up your entire view of life and rebuilding it from > the ground up. I didn't really see a giving up of hetero sex - I saw a > different society that does things differently than ours.... > Yes. . . but wouldn't you have thunk it if you were on a planet with only men? If you got put in a male jail, wouldn't you start thinking about the next time you wanted to screw someone and what your new environment means. And, I would posit that jail is just as life changing as being stuck on Jeep and sick with the Virus. > The technological is masculine, the > natural is feminine. > I don't subscribe to that particular form of feminism. ------ I also don't like "journey of the hero" sort of books. When I read _Ammonite_, I was really enjoying myself, at first. I liked maybe the first third or half of the book. Then, the terrible things that are happening and the environment all start kinda pulling me down. Then, it hits me. No men. Nowhere. Then I realize that this isn't the type of book that I like (i.e. journey plus barren world), but the type I have learned to avoid. Probably my discontent with _Ammonnite_ has a lot more to do with personal preference than faults of the books itself. However. I accept the "no men" story. I've actually read other books like that. (Though all the men were simply absent, not dead or off-world.) Once I notice "no men," then I notice that there is no discussion of that. Nobody acknowledges it. Not even Marghe when she realizes that she's gonna stay on Jeep. I started being very negative toward the book from that point on. Part of it may also be that lesbian fiction doesn't really interest me. Examples, early Gael Baudino are fantastic, middle and late are boring. To me. She comes out more and more until the story is so permeated with her sexuality that I feel left out. Probably what most lesbians feel when reading a hetero novel. However, _Ammonite_ isn't really lesbian sci-fi. After all, it's not about choice or even lifestyle. Time to stop. I am getting too muddled even for me. -- "All disasters, or an enormous proportion of them, are due to the dissoluteness of women." -Leo Tolstoy "I haven't read _War and Peace_, but that's a man's book anyway." -author Kaye Gibbons ___ remove "women's lit" to reply Blue 47/Annabel Leigh/Jhoto/RB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:51:15 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: BDG: Shakespeare/bluntness/backlash Comments: To: blue47@uky.campus.women's, lit.mci.net@sac-b.mp.campus.mci.net In-Reply-To: <3511D291.EE431216@uky.campus.mci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:21 19/03/98 -0500, Blue wrote: > > > >When I read _Ammonite_, I was really enjoying myself, at >first. I liked maybe the first third or half of the book. >Then, the terrible things that are happening and the >environment all start kinda pulling me down. Then, it hits >me. No men. Nowhere. Then I realize that this >isn't the type of book that I like (i.e. journey plus barren >world), but the type I have learned to avoid. Probably my >discontent with _Ammonnite_ has a lot more to do with >personal preference than faults of the books itself. >However. > >I accept the "no men" story. I've actually read other books >like that. (Though all the men were simply absent, not dead >or off-world.) Once I notice "no men," then I notice that >there is no discussion of that. Nobody acknowledges it. >Not even Marghe when she realizes that she's gonna stay on >Jeep. I started being very negative toward the book from >that point on. I'm with Blue on this point, as my main criticism of Ammonite was the lack of discussion amongst the characters about the missing men. Nobody acknowledges it, or even mentions it in passing, or in casual conversation etc. > >Part of it may also be that lesbian fiction doesn't really >interest me. Examples, early Gael Baudino are fantastic, >middle and late are boring. To me. She comes out more and >more until the story is so permeated with her sexuality that >I feel left out. Probably what most lesbians feel when >reading a hetero novel. However, _Ammonite_ isn't really >lesbian sci-fi. After all, it's not about choice or even >lifestyle. Time to stop. I am getting too muddled even for >me. Like Blue, I wasnt overly thrilled by reading Ammonite, but I suspect it has more to do with my personal preferences in stories, utopian visions and especially a preference for characters that I can identify with. Besides the lack of conversation/discussion about the absence of men, there was also an unbelievable lack of curiousity about life elsewhere, or of "movement" beyond their "space". Its as if the women of Jeep had bound themselves to their planetary "kitchen" and were happy to stay there. This is why I couldnt see it as "feminist", as feminism to me implies a "movement", an "evolution" of constant change and growth. Marghe is the only character to undergo any growth in this manner - on a personal level, but her growth, is more like *acceptance* of the existing status quo in an increasingly stagnant society. Regards Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:03:58 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Mark Schebel wrote: > > > > For example, several years ago, I read a short story about a corporation > > that specialized in solving problems, kind of like spin doctors for hire, > > who dealt with everything from industrial espionage to marital > > conflicts to walking one's dog. Robert Heinlein's WE ALSO WALK DOGS. When I read it, I thought that this > > would be my dream job if such company existed. It would also match my > > experience of continuosly getting myself out of impossible situations > > that normally got people killed :) . I'm actually thinking of starting a > > company like that myself someday, if no one else does. I wonder how many other people have tried it? And succeeded? Fun research. Another sf idea I > > like is human cloning. I would like to have a cloned baby some day, and > > I would even give money to research in that direction (that is when I > > have enough money). Your own identical twin? But do read RAINBOW CADENZA first! ANd also GENERATIONS. She won't be you, you know. She'll be your daughter. Other sf ideas that people have tried to implement were > > the pacifist common-property communities, in-vitro fertilization, and > > artificial intelligence. Oh, yeah, and a communist state. > > > > My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in > > science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? ECOTOPIA. > > And was there anything from science fiction world that you tried to see > > if it worked in real life? > > yes. Being a Heinlein hero. s Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:20:30 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: Re: Share Lodging for WisCon 22? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-19 18:52:50 EST, you write: << I know it's still a couple months away but I just made reservations for the hotel in Madison for Memorial Day weekend. >> Any idea who will be speaking there aside from Tepper, Kushner, and Sherman? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:44:42 +0100 Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: Human Cloning in sf--David Brin's Glory Season In-Reply-To: Joel VanLaven 's message of Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:36:19 -0500 *** Dan Crashin wrote, about Brin's Glory Season: >>> Also, the book, while exploring themes of gender and power >>> which are central to feminism, does not subscribe to feminist >>> politics such as they are -- for example, the main reason men are >>> kept around on the planet is because the particular male talent >>> for agression might be needed in case of war. I'm sure that also >>> did not help. ** Thomas Gramstad >> While it is 2 or 3 years since I read it, that's not how I >> remember it at all. I remember female guards, soldiers, pirates >> and assassins, all skilled fighters. The profession of the men >> were sailors and traders, not military. Sailing and trading kept >> the men at some distance from the power centers in the cities; >> sailing and trading could have been done by women -- the men's >> primary societal role was to provide genetic variation (new >> female "wild seeds", as opposed to the parthenogenetic >> biotechnology that served to reproduce and maintain the female >> clone clans); and sexual pleasure as a subordinate aspect of >> maintaining that genetic variation. * Joel van Laven > Actually, sexual pleasure has nothing to do with keeping men > around. You are right about men's primary role. However, Dan is > also right. Brin mentions that the larger, more dangerous (to a > certain extent) men were and indeed might still be useful in > all-out war. There is no war on there so this aspect is held in > check. The way I remember it, the founders of the planet, who planned and created the parthenogenetic clone clan system, they presented the sorry state of the civilization they came from, with patriarchy, androcentrism, male violence etc. etc., in their historical records. So this view of males are presented as their view, not the author's view. Knowledge of history is not wide-spread on the planet, most people take their own society and culture for granted; so most women on the planet do not consider men in the context of patriarchy, violence etc., they consider men in the context of reproductive variation and recombination of genes. A somewhat powerful and prevalent ideological group among the women is the Perkinites, who think that the men are in fact unnecessary in the reproductive process and want to let them die out so that only females and parthenogenetic biotechnology remains. (I don't recall if they offered a biotechnological solution to create genetic variation, or if they just thought that reproductive variation overrated.) So, as I recall it, there were no stereotypes; at most "hormones are dangerous", rather than "men are dangerous". Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:33:55 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: looking to discuss Elgin NATIVE TONGUE & learn Laadan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura forwarded a message for a friend > >f_my_comments_are = I'm looking for women to discuss Suzette Hayden > Elgin's Native Tongue series, and perhaps to work together on learning > Laadan. If interested, please email me. Or if you've just read the books, > I'd like to know if I'm the only one!! > >I'm not sure if this is where this posting belongs or not, but hey! On another mailing list I belong to they are discussing Elgin's work, and a couple of women are really into Laadan. Do you think it would be alright to pass this message on to them? BTW one of them said she thought it was a shame that Klingon has cornered the market in made-up-SF-languages. Hmmm... Klingon is the sort of thing that gives obsessive interest in SF a bad name :-) Alison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:08:38 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: FW: [*FSFFU*] bdg: Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-19 11:53:26 EST, you write: > IMHO, humans are a whole lot more adaptable than you're giving us credit > for, and we can adapt (even our sexual behavior and emotional responses) > very quickly. Straight men have sex with and strong emotional > commitments to other men when those straight men are locked in a prison > and told they won't be leaving for years. Same goes for women inmates. > It doesn't take long either--months, weeks. > Jim answers, I fully agree with your Humble Opinion. We are adaptable, and could adjust to living in a world minus any partners of the gender we prefer. Still, I thought this aspect of life on Jeep would have crossed Marghe's mind, and that of the Doctor and other recent arrivals. I thought there might be some mention of the transition period by those who, through 5 years of adjustment, had already bridged that chasm. If we accept prisoners as an example, I'm sure that ways of dealing with sexual deprivation are high on their list of topics to discuss with old timers just after they arrive in this new setting. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:21:10 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: [RW-L] SOCIAL:To all the phenomenal women I know (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu Pat--got this from RW-L, but I bet the Feminist list would like it! >>thought i'd pass this on to you phenomenal writers who are creating all >those phenomenal heroines. >> >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Pretty women wonder where my secret lies >>>>>>> > > > > I'm not cute or built to suit a >>>>>>> > > > > models's fashion size >>>>>>> > > > > But when I start to tell them >>>>>>> > > > > They think I'm telling lies. >>>>>>> > > > > I say >>>>>>> > > > > It's in the reach of my arms >>>>>>> > > > > The span of my hips >>>>>>> > > > > The stride of my steps >>>>>>> > > > > The curl of my lips. >>>>>>> > > > > I'm a woman >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenally >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenal woman >>>>>>> > > > > That's me. >>>>>>> > > > > I walk into a room >>>>>>> > > > > Just as cool as you please >>>>>>> > > > > And to a man >>>>>>> > > > > The fellows stand or >>>>>>> > > > > Fall down on their knees >>>>>>> > > > > Then they swarm around me >>>>>>> > > > > A hive of honey bees. >>>>>>> > > > > I say >>>>>>> > > > > It's the fire in my eyes >>>>>>> > > > > And the flash of my teeth >>>>>>> > > > > The swing of my waist >>>>>>> > > > > And the joy in my feet. >>>>>>> > > > > I'm a woman >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenally >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenal woman >>>>>>> > > > > That's me. >>>>>>> > > > > Men themselves have wondered >>>>>>> > > > > What they see in me >>>>>>> > > > > They try so much >>>>>>> > > > > But they can't touch >>>>>>> > > > > My inner mystery. >>>>>>> > > > > When I try to show them >>>>>>> > > > > They say they still can't see. >>>>>>> > > > > I say >>>>>>> > > > > It's in the arch of my back >>>>>>> > > > > The sun of my smile >>>>>>> > > > > The ride of my breasts >>>>>>> > > > > The grace of my style. >>>>>>> > > > > I'm a woman >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenally >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenal woman >>>>>>> > > > > That's me. >>>>>>> > > > > Now you understand >>>>>>> > > > > Just why my head's not bowed >>>>>>> > > > > I don't shout or jump about >>>>>>> > > > > Or have to talk real loud >>>>>>> > > > > When you see me passing >>>>>>> > > > > It ought to make you proud. >>>>>>> > > > > I say >>>>>>> > > > > It's in the click of my heels >>>>>>> > > > > The bend of my hair >>>>>>> > > > > The palm of my hand >>>>>>> > > > > The need for my care. >>>>>>> > > > > I'm a woman >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenally >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenal woman >>>>>>> > > > > That's me. >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Phenomenal Woman by Maya Angelou >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >> >> >> >Madeline Archer >archerm@duq3.cc.duq.edu > >[RW-L] Current RW-L Topics are Social: Misc: Market: >[RW-L] Intro: WIP: Promo: Tech: Goals: RWA: and Research: > > Jean Lamb, Klamath Falls, OR, tlambs@magick.net, Royal Scroll Duster to the Living God Pharoah Barb, and perpetrator of Really Bad Puns whenever I get a chance. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:39:55 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: BDG: Ammonite: odds and ends Content-Type: text/plain >Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:40:40 -0500 >From: DAVID CHRISTENSON >Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite > >-- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > >There's been some discussion here of Ammonite's alleged plot holes, >regarding the virus and/or the Company. It seems to me that a man-less >world with a marooned colony is the main premise of Ammonite, so how it >became that way is not all that important. To me. What's important to me >is how the premise is developed, not how it's justified. Though that's >probably grating to the harder-SF crowd. I disagree. The Jeep virus is a major part of the plot, you can't cut it out of the novel without making nonsense of the rest of it. Thinking about _Ammonite_ further, I think the reasons that the Jeep virus bugged me were: 1) the virus was too damn convenient, it smacked of wish-fulfillment to me; 2)the novel started off with a fairly "hard" SF feeling, interstellar Companies, space stations, viruses, battleships in orbit -- this feeling continues in the first part of the book that is set among the Mirrors, but then there is an abrupt shift in tone and genre when suddenly the protag is riding horses among the tribepeople and developing strange new powers. Someone else on the list (Blue47?) also mentioned that this transition threw them, and that they liked the second half less than the first. I know that Griffith probably intended this change-up in the novel, but I still didn't like it. First, I just don't like sudden changes in tone genre (which may make me shallow, I dunno) -- I didn't like Peter Hamilton's _Reality Dysfunction_ for the same reason, it started as high-flying space opera and mutated into Stephen King-like horror halfway through. Second, I like SF with spaceships better than SF with horses. But, I *did* like _Lord Valentine's Castle_, which is clearly "science fantasy" from the very beginning. >Blue sez: >> 2. I think part of the reason I didn't like it was because I >> am not a lesbian, so I needed some acknowledgment that being >> on Jeep meant giving up hetero sex. > >I'm not a lesbian either (obviously) but this didn't occur to me. As >busy as everybody was in this novel, I wonder how they had time to think >about sex at all. I can't quite imagine a scene like the one you >describe in an all-male novel of, say, war or adventure. (And hey, look >at Star Trek: Next Gen, where most of the characters gave up sex for >years at a time...) Actually, most SF war novels contain a few girlfriends, fiancees, or whores, even if they're mostly offstage. I think there's a big difference between being in a single-sex environment for a brief, or even extended time, and being in a single-sex environment for the forseeable future. After all, most heterosexuals in prison, boarding school, Marine boot camp, or whatever, even if they do engage in homosexual activities in that setting, expect to resume a heterosexual lifestyle afterwards. It's interesting that most of the objection to lesbian content so far on this list has come from heterosexual women, isn't it? Personally it didn't bother me. >Aside: Just found an old SF novel, "World Without Women" by Day Keene >and Leonard Pruyn (Gold Medal pb, 1960). Sorta like Ammonite in reverse, >with only a few hundred women left on Earth after some disaster having >to do with nuclear testing. Needless to say (since it was written in >1960) the remaining men don't handle things as diplomatically as >Griffith's characters, and the remaining women are all placed under >armed guard with their husbands or whatever and given strong hints that >they should get pregnant ASAP. Skimming through it, I detect plenty of >additional machinations and kidnapping and such, but not much SF >development beyond the initial idea. (The women apparently never get the >idea that this may be their chance to take over.) How would it? Women get treated like chattel enough right now, when there is no particular shortage of them. OTOH, Frank Herbert's _White Plague_, in which a tailored plague kills off most of the world's women, ends with society moving towards polyandry. To be honest, this seems a lot less likely than the "World without women" scenario! But I am currently immersed in research for a presentation on evolutionary psychology, so this kind of thing seems self-evident to me. >-- >David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com **************************************************************** > >Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:21:05 -0500 >From: Blue >Subject: Re: BDG: Shakespeare/bluntness/backlash > >Frances Green said: > > >> Have you read Suzette Haden Elgin's "Native Tongue" re Reaganite backlash >> (sort of)? >> > > >Yep. It ends kind of unresolved, how I remember it. (There >was no exposition of the new culture, only the description >of the subversion of the old.) I also don't buy into that >language shapes psychology/culture type of idea. I believe >it's more the other way around. > >Of course, the language may just have been the outer >manifestation of a radically different cultural >indoctrination. However, Ms. Elgin herself doesn't espouse >that. I also thought that the "women's language" at the end was very much of a deus ex machina, but I have not read the other books in the series and don't know where she goes from there. [snip] >Unfortunately, I don't understand poetry. It's just not the >way my brain is shaped, I think. I think anyone can read poetry if they can read fiction, they just haven't developed the skills. Of course, there are lots of things to do with your spare time, but if you feel like giving it another crack, try Philip Larkin. He's one of those poets-for-people-who- don't-like-poets. Dry, unsentimental, and his diction is very down to earth. Whew! Enough gabbing for one day, I think, now let's get Powerpoint running... Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:47:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite: odds and ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > > >-- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > > > >There's been some discussion here of Ammonite's alleged plot holes, > >regarding the virus and/or the Company. It seems to me that a > man-less > >world with a marooned colony