Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9803D" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:37:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:50:08 EST >From: Lurima >Subject: Re: sf and real life [snip] > Ellison has been given an incredible gift >of language, but he uses it in such sickening ways. I feel sorry for him--he >lives in a brain that comes out with terms like "rat puke" when anyone >disagrees with him. And ya know what? Rats can't vomit! So much for Hellison's credibility, eh? --Susan (who, as a 13-year-long rattophile, just had to "throw" that in.) anariska@smartt.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:38:43 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: <216291e0.35149882@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:50 21/03/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-21 00:35:00 EST, you write: > ><< > Anybody remember a long past movie called _A Boy and His Dog_? Circa 1978? >>> > >Wasn't that the Harlan Ellison story? It grossed me out big time (how about >that vocabulary?). The protagonist is a garbage-mouthed rapist who uses his >dog to sniff out women to victimize. Ellison has been given an incredible gift >of language, but he uses it in such sickening ways. I feel sorry for him--he >lives in a brain that comes out with terms like "rat puke" when anyone >disagrees with him. I usually can't get past the first couple of paragraphs in >a story of his because it turns my stomach. But he's a skilled writer--and >certainly a master of invective. > >barbara > I agree Barbara:) Reminds me of a quotation from Dorothy Parker: "He is beyond question a writer of power; and his power lies in his ability to make sex so thoroughly, graphically and aggressively unattractive that one is fairly shaken to ponder how little one has been missing." Review of Norman Mailer by Dorothy Parker - poet, journalist(1893-1967) Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:50:10 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:03 20/03/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Mark Schebel wrote: > > Other sf ideas that people have tried to implement were >> > the pacifist common-property communities, in-vitro fertilization, and >> > artificial intelligence. Oh, yeah, and a communist state. >> > >> > My question is, if you could make an idea (scientific or social) found in >> > science fiction come true, which one (and from which book) would it be? > My choice for the social aspect would be from almost all *hard* galactic sci-fi - the concept of being conscious of being from a single planet - calling myself an 'Earther' or a "terran" etc. After immersing myself in sci-fi books I am often jarred back into 1998 reality , by turning on my TV news to hear of conflicts between hundreds of nation-states and the rise of racist nationalism here and there around the planet - ( I sometimes think, that not only a backlash to feminism has occurred, but also a racism backlash as well, particularly towards indigenous peoples) - as much as I adore the Star Trek series, I was struck often with laughter one time last year when bed-ridden with illness for a week, and I watched the entire TNG series of videos non-stop - and the thinly disguised American nationalism/militaristic propaganda portrayed in Starfleet philosophy:)..I imagined how it would appear to our perceptions to see the Head Starfleet Admiral bear an uncanny resemblance to Saddam Hussein or Mao Tse Tung:). On a scientific level - my personal wish is to get off-planet - ( stop the world, I want to get off now!) I'm sometimes quite depressed by the lack of research in space technology, and the likelihood that I will never see Earth people get "out there" in my life-time, let alone, be one of them:) Im also demoralised that such technology always seems to be a preserve of the rich and powerful minorities, whether it be nations, individuals or corporate entities. I have occasionally thought that if I did live in a time when space technology/mobility was available - I would be "ashamed" to call myself an Earther or Terran! lol Maybe there is so little movement in the necessary research because: its an enormous task, requiring a huge effort/commitment by a large number of people, nations and organisations, and as large and resource rich as even the USA is, I suspect progress will be slow if its dominated by only one-power bloc. I guess its truly utopian to wish that the opportunity for the planet to unite with input from all nations in space technology/research, become a reality - for example, I wonder how many Newtons or Einsteins, or even brilliant technicians and engineers and communications specialists etc died of malnutrition today? or didnt receive an appropriate education to develop their skills? > Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:42:20 -0400 Reply-To: pyork@localnet.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat York Subject: Re: sf and real life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, rats can't puke--no gag reflex. > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:50:08 EST > From: Lurima > Subject: Re: sf and real life > > In a message dated 98-03-21 00:35:00 EST, you write: > > << > Anybody remember a long past movie called _A Boy and His Dog_? Circa 1978? > >> > > Wasn't that the Harlan Ellison story? It grossed me out big time (how about > that vocabulary?). The protagonist is a garbage-mouthed rapist who uses his > dog to sniff out women to victimize. Ellison has been given an incredible gift > of language, but he uses it in such sickening ways. I feel sorry for him--he > lives in a brain that comes out with terms like "rat puke" when anyone > disagrees with him. I usually can't get past the first couple of paragraphs in > a story of his because it turns my stomach. But he's a skilled writer--and > certainly a master of invective. > > barbara > > ------------------------------ > > End of FEMINISTSF Digest - 20 Mar 1998 to 21 Mar 1998 > ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:10:10 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite In-Reply-To: <7345d2cb.351331de@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Lurima wrote: > I mightily resist having anyone try to control me > (especially after being married to a control freak), but I have a hard time > understanding why anyone wants to control other people. I think, mainly to prevent other people from controlling you, or to be more exact, from destroying you. When people are threatened, they try to get as much control over the situation as they can, and other people are a part of the situation, if not the direct cause of it. They always say that the worst control freaks are the children of alcoholic parents. Simply because they grew up watching their world falling apart on daily basis. The problem is that besides a valid cause of fear, like a substanse-abusing family member, a "threat" for different people could be anything from another religion to somebody else's choice of clothing. I knew a girl who was a complete religious fanatic from Baptist Student Union. She was one of those who believed that they got points to go to Heaven for every person they converted (at any cost, including cutting the convertee's brains out). I really tried to understand the roots of her astonishing hatred to any part of culture apart from religious fiction and Disney movies. Then I realized that she was mortally afraid of anything outside her clean little world in a Bible-belt small town. She saw the Earth and all people as a filthy murderous conglomeration of sin. So any part of it she was exposed to, be it rock music or someone's blue hair, caused a response of horror and immediate desire to eliminate it at any cost. What I am trying to say, in my opinion people who want to control others often simply want to prevent others (or some universal evil forces, like Satan or international conspiracy) from controlling (or affecting) them. It's self-defense. At least, that's what I think. Yet we know that the > lust for power and control motivates many people. > Well, for some people others thinking for themselves is the same as growing up with an alcoholic parent. Unpredictable, scary, and questioning their own "goodness". Just imagine that. Does not make it any better, but at least makes it easier to understand. And realize that you may not want to know their reasons as much as make them stop trying to rule your life. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:26:49 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite: odds and ends In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Anita Easton wrote: (snip) > I guess I see novels which are all men and "girlfriends, fiancees, or > whores" as all-male, as all the women are defined only in terms of > their relationship(s) to men. If I read a book about women, in which > some women happen to own cats I think of it as a book about women, not > a book about women and cats. One of the reasons that I started to read feminist science fiction is I got so tired of the "girlfriends, fiancees and whores" syndrome. I wanted to read about women having interesting adventures that didn't necessarily revolve around men. I have read so many books where women are peripheral to what the men are doing that I'm just sick of it. In *Ammonite* women are not background characters whose sole purpose is to be rescued by the big strong hero. These women are not idealized. They are individuals with their own differing agendas. I liked that. > Anita > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: sf and real life Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail1.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- >From: Lurima >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] sf and real life >Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998, 11:50 PM > >In a message dated 98-03-21 00:35:00 EST, you write: > ><< > Anybody remember a long past movie called _A Boy and His Dog_? Circa 1978? >>> > >Wasn't that the Harlan Ellison story? It grossed me out big time (how about >that vocabulary?). The protagonist is a garbage-mouthed rapist who uses his >dog to sniff out women to victimize. Ellison has been given an incredible gift >of language, but he uses it in such sickening ways. I feel sorry for him--he >lives in a brain that comes out with terms like "rat puke" when anyone >disagrees with him. I usually can't get past the first couple of paragraphs in >a story of his because it turns my stomach. But he's a skilled writer--and >certainly a master of invective. I think a plug for Joanna Russ's essay on the subject of the story (which she liked) and the movie (which she despised), in TO WRITE LIKE A WOMAN, would be well-placed at this moment in time... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:05:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail1.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >And ya know what? Rats can't vomit! So much for Hellison's credibility, eh? Ummmm...what if it's the character who uses the phrase "rat puke," yet Ellison knew that rats couldn't puke? In that case, I'd place Ellison's credibility high above the vast majority of writers alive today...which I normally do, anyhow... - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:04:03 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robyn Starkey Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I also thought that the initial stages of the book dealt with failure, >Marghe's in her career, the Company's on Jeep, technology in environment >of Jeep, Sarah's to find a cure for the virus, Danner to understand the >importance of trata and integrating with the whole community in order to >survive and track down her spy until to late, the failure of both >technological communication and the methods that were used on Jeep >(Marghe's message going astray), This is a really interesting reading, and this last point also reminded me of something I thought was intriguing in the book - who changed Marghe's message? Was it just a tragic mistake, or did someone deliberately alter the meaning of the message in order to shape the way that the newcomers interacted with the Jeep natives? Robyn *********************************** Robyn Starkey University of Melbourne r.starkey@elp.unimelb.edu.au ************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:36:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Armstrong Subject: rodent puke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>And ya know what? Rats can't vomit! So much for Hellison's credibility, >eh? > >Ummmm...what if it's the character who uses the phrase "rat puke," yet >Ellison knew that rats couldn't puke? In that case, I'd place Ellison's >credibility high above the vast majority of writers alive today...which I >normally do, anyhow... > >- Geoffrey 'Twas but a joke! (or maybe a gratuitous means of dragging rats into the conversation?) Nothing to do with literary criticism. I'm not equipped to be a critic. *Re-lurk* *back to enjoying what all you folks have to say* -- Susan anariska@smartt.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I also thought that the initial stages of the book dealt with failure, Marghe's in her career, the Company's on Jeep, technology in environment of Jeep, Sarah's to find a cure for the virus, Danner to understand the importance of trata and integrating with the whole community in order to survive and track down her spy until to late, the failure of both technological communication and the methods that were used on Jeep (Marghe's message going astray),.....>> Is it failure or real life....humanity makes many stabs at solutions that sometimes do not achieve our objectives. As do individuals. There were also successes. Marghe finding her answers, Marghe bringing understanding between the native people and the "colonists, Danner opening herself to cooperations rather than defense, The tribes being halted from slaughter, getting the folks off the ship without Company finding out, etc....That seesaw of failure with success is what made the book so rich and convincing for me. >>> something I thought was intriguing in the book - who changed Marghe's message? Was it just a tragic mistake, or did someone deliberately alter the meaning of the message in order to shape the way that the newcomers interacted with the Jeep natives?>>> Well now, here is how silly I am, I thought that was the one really hoaky (sic).... "made up contrivance to steer the story"... bit in the book. No men? fine. Virus that allows women to "conceive" children? fine. One woman salvaging the entire population from themselves? fine....but those message stones somehow getting messed up? No way. I could see the authors hand reaching down into the frame and shuffling them around. Too funny. I had to laugh at my own intolerance. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:00:35 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: <64ef81c3.35132e76@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Lurima wrote: > > But one person's ideal society is another person's hell. That's why there can > be no Utopia for more than a generation. A writer whose name escapes me for > the moment has written some stories in the magazines about an African utopia, > which turns out to be most dissatisfactory for the young people growing up in > it. Michael Resnick's KIRINYAGA. > > My current novel deals with the topic of people trying to force other people > to be "happy" by making them do what the controlling group considers good. > Oppression is always wrong, in my opinion. I like to create characters who > learn for themselves what makes them happy. And then I like to give them a > place where they can do that. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:11:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: sf and real life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD5644.172BC030" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD5644.172BC030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The opening comment about "a boy and his dog" (which I haven't seen) = reminded me of one of the very first SF books I ever remember reading = (bear with me, it is vaguely fem-related); the images I retain after = probably 15 -20 years are: it's a Juvenille book (I was in elementary school when I read it) it was from the point of view of a girl about my age at the time I think it took place in England the girl had a younger sister nuclear holocaust happened, and everyone huddled in their houses the girl's little sister hid herself under the dining room table, which = was covered in a heavy blanket all the time some fallout came down the chimney the little sister survived to reproduce, and the children she had were = adapted to the radiation, etc., had fur and telepathy(?) At least, that's what I remember. Does anyone know what I'm talking = about? It really affected me at the time, because it was so bleak, and = yet so hopeful at the end, and I related to it so well, being from a = young girl's POV (I ate up L'Engle's books and McCaffrey's Masterharper = series in elementary school and Jr. high for the same reason). Every once in a while I remember that story, though, and it bothers me = that I don't know what it is or who wrote it. If anyone knows, I'd = greatly appreciate being reminded! 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I can't quite imagine a scene like the one you >> >describe in an all-male novel of, say, war or adventure. (And hey, look >> Actually, most SF war novels contain a few girlfriends, fiancees, or >> whores, even if they're mostly offstage. I think there's a big > >I guess I see novels which are all men and "girlfriends, fiancees, or >whores" as all-male, as all the women are defined only in terms of >their relationship(s) to men. If I read a book about women, in which >some women happen to own cats I think of it as a book about women, not >a book about women and cats. > >*shrug* > >Women-as-male-appendages is such a male concept, and removes all sense >of woman-as-person. > >Anita Sorry, forgot to put the HTML codes in. I am an enthusiastic fan of military SF, but the sexism frequently makes me wince. **************************************************************************** >From: Lurima > Anybody remember a long past movie called _A Boy and His Dog_? Circa 1978? >>> > >Wasn't that the Harlan Ellison story? It grossed me out big time (how about >that vocabulary?). The protagonist is a garbage-mouthed rapist who uses his >dog to sniff out women to victimize. Ellison has been given an incredible gift >of language, but he uses it in such sickening ways. I feel sorry for him--he >lives in a brain that comes out with terms like "rat puke" when anyone >disagrees with him. I usually can't get past the first couple of paragraphs in >a story of his because it turns my stomach. But he's a skilled writer--and >certainly a master of invective. > >barbara I really don't remember the story that way; the protagonist actually seemed like a fairly nice guy, given his hellish post-holocaust environment. It's his dog who smells out the female and brings it to his attention. (I know this will mean little to those who haven't read it). The protag *has* to be sympathetic, so that the shocker ending will come off properly. Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:58:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michelle Bernard Subject: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ugh, I just read Sheldon/Tiptree's "The Screwfly Solution" at lunch... wow was it disturbing. I can't process anything else right now because of it. And I thought that _I Who Never New Men_ (translated from French), my last read, was unpleasant. misha bernardm@colorado.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:47:10 -0500 Reply-To: blue47@uky.campus.women's, lit.mci.net@sac-a.mp.campus.mci.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Blue Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donna Simone said: > Am I hearing a subtle "yeah, you know those lesbians, they hate men" > comment here > Um. . ., no. _________ I didn't like the book because it had so many things I didn't like in it. It's simply not the type of book or setting I prefer. Did the lesbian part of it turn me off? Not really. Marghe and Thenike were believeable. It's just that I like sci-fi, not fantasy, which is really what this book turned out to be. (I have my own definition of fantasy, i.e. they aren't in space anymore, etc.) -- "All disasters, or an enormous proportion of them, are due to the dissoluteness of women." -Leo Tolstoy "I haven't read _War and Peace_, but that's a man's book anyway." -author Kaye Gibbons ___ remove "women's lit" to reply Blue 47/Annabel Leigh/Jhoto/RB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:17:59 -0500 Reply-To: blue47@diespammersdie.uky.campus.mci.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Blue Subject: my list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is what I read in the utopia sort of stories. Unfortunately, I generally mix in good world-building stories with utopian ones. I tried to effectively self-edit and was utterly unsuccessful. So, here's what I read. In no particular order. 1. Tepper: _Gate to Women's Country_, hopefully no comment is needed 2. LeGuin: _Dispossessed_, excellent, even if the narrator was a man (Bad Anne, Sexism down!) 3. Atwood: _Handmaid_, thought-provoking, but didn't really like it. Very harsh. 4. MZB: _The Ruins of Isis_, not complete enough to really understand the world's culture, not a favorite 5. Kathy Tyers: _Shivering World_, good world building, a little too romantic perhaps. 6. Bujold: _Ethan of Athos_, a little light, but I liked it. However, it occurred to me that giving all the Athos that particular problem at the end might not be a good idea for the women those men may later encounter. 7. Cherryh: _Serpent_, _Hunter_, and _Cyteen_, all exploring what it means to be human, in different ways 8. Arnason, _Woman of the Iron People_, didn't like the setting, but enjoyed the discussion 9. the one where people lived on rafts and named themselves a name they had to live down -- I wonder how many future Newtons and Einsteins, or brilliant technicians and engineers and communications specialists died of malnutrition today? or didn't receive an appropriate education to develop their skills? -Julieanne Le Comte --- remove "diespammersdie" to reply Blue 47/Annabel Leigh/Jhoto/RB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:40:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Ellison puke Well, maybe the various bright rats of SF went around exclaiming (in whatever language) "Harlan-Ellison puke" in moments of stress. On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:05:17 -0500 "Geoffrey D. Sperl" writes: >>And ya know what? Rats can't vomit! So much for Hellison's >credibility, >eh? > >Ummmm...what if it's the character who uses the phrase "rat puke," yet >Ellison knew that rats couldn't puke? In that case, I'd place >Ellison's >credibility high above the vast majority of writers alive >today...which I >normally do, anyhow... > >- Geoffrey > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:58:07 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Misha said - > I just read Sheldon/Tiptree's "The Screwfly Solution" at lunch... wow > was it disturbing. I can't process anything else right now because of > it. I can remember when I read that, how scary it was. It's frightening because the 'change' induced by the aliens is so slight and therefore so believable, seemingly so close to the way at least some men talk about women and sexuality. It's the classic reasoning of (say) the Yorkshire Ripper, or the witch burners. Sex=evil, women = sex, therefore ... Did you notice that by the end the men were killing each other? the leading misogynist starts calling other men crypto-females.. kind of like the way in the cold war people were persecuted for being 'crypto-communists'. But I think I can cope with the kind of sick/paranoid feeling that this type of story induces by thinking about it this way: Sheldon isn't saying 'what if the natural misogyny of all men were exaggerated just that little bit more' but rather 'what if the destructive mysogyny of some men were extended to all men, even the previously loving partners and fathers.' Well, even if that isn't what Sheldon is saying, that's how I'm going to read it :-) Alison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:46:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- I wrote, about the early '60s novel "World Without Women": > << (The women apparently never get the > idea that this may be their chance to take over.) > -- >> Barb says: > That's more of a male kind of thinking, in my opinion (go ahead, flame away). > Men are conditioned and probably naturally programmed to seek dominance. Me again - (Response option 1) On the contrary. Whenever some James Bond villain threatens to take over the world I say, "Go for it." How could he be worse than the current theocatic-capitalist conspiracy that runs the world now? (Response option 2) In the context of the bad novel to which I was making reference, it would have made sense for the women to "turn the tables" and take control, because that's what the whole novel was about - power games. I guess I didn't convey that in my summary. (Response option 3) I believe you're underestimating men's ability to adapt, evolve and depart from the norm. Not all men are controllers, or dominating types, not all by a long shot - I'm certainly not, and that has caused me trouble in relationships with women who *expect* that type. But anyway, thanks for the reminder of the culmination of Ammonite in the "win-win" peace - for me, that made for a satisfying conclusion to this novel of conflict *without* war, or revenge fighting, or wholesale bloodshed. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:05:32 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-21 04:58:34 EST, Donna Simone writes: > >In defense of Lady Blue's original comment that she found the silent > migration to same-sex orientation jarring, I have to say that this element > of Ammonite bothered me too. ......I took it as part of the mindset of > Nicola Griffith, who is, herself, a lesbian. In her mind, it never occurred > to lament the absence of men in the world she'd created. Pas de problem. > > > >Jim > > > Am I hearing a subtle "yeah, you know those lesbians, they hate men" > comment here? Not at all. What I'm suggesting is, "You know those humans. Unless they force themselves, they don't consider other viewpoints outside their own." Jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:30:05 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-22 16:14:19 EST, you write: << What I am trying to say, in my opinion people who want to control others often simply want to prevent others (or some universal evil forces, like Satan or international conspiracy) from controlling (or affecting) them. It's self-defense. At least, that's what I think. >> H'mmm. That makes sense. But I wonder what explains Bill Gates? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:32:36 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG: Ammonite: odds and ends Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-22 16:28:52 EST, you write: << I wanted to read about women having interesting adventures that didn't necessarily revolve around men. I have read so many books where women are peripheral to what the men are doing that I'm just sick of it. >> You know, I agree about this. I don't think half the human race exists only to service the other half. But yet I feel disappointed when the female protagonist does everything herself and the male protagonist doesn't get to do much of anything. I guess I like the teamwork scenario: she brings her skills and abilities to the situation, and so does he. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:34:08 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: sf and real life Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-22 23:10:21 EST, you write: << I think a plug for Joanna Russ's essay on the subject of the story (which she liked) and the movie (which she despised), in TO WRITE LIKE A WOMAN, would be well-placed at this moment in time... >> This sounds interesting. Can you tell us more about the book? Is it a collection of essays by female writers? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:37:19 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-22 23:10:22 EST, you write: << Ummmm...what if it's the character who uses the phrase "rat puke," yet Ellison knew that rats couldn't puke? In that case, I'd place Ellison's credibility high above the vast majority of writers alive today...which I normally do, anyhow... >> I'm not talking about a character. I'm talking about seeing someone challenge one of Ellison's statements, at which point Ellison told the guy he was a "pinhead" and his comments were "rat puke." No debate, just vituperation. I find that sort of behavior repugnant in a grown man. barbar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:47:49 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: bdg: Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-24 09:53:34 EST, you write: << Not all men are controllers, or dominating types, not all by a long shot - I'm certainly not, and that has caused me trouble in relationships with women who *expect* that type. >> I remember Alan Alda's complaint that women say they want the sensitive types, yet they are consistently attracted to the macho types. There's a lot of truth to that, unfortunately. What I want is someone with wonderful muscles on the outside, and sweet sensitivity on the inside! (To think about, anyway. I wouldn't know what to do with a real one.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:44:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: subtle comment (was BGD Ammonite) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >......I took it as part of the mindset of Nicola Griffith, who is, herself, a lesbian. In her mind, it never occurred to her to lament the absence of men in the world she'd created. Pas de problem.>> >Jim > >> Am I hearing a subtle "yeah, you know those lesbians, they hate men" >> comment here? > donna > >Not at all. What I'm suggesting is, "You know those humans. Unless they force themselves, they don't consider other viewpoints outside their own.">>Jim Jim, Quite sorry I misinterpreted your original comment. My handy dandy PC Decoder Ring must be malfunctioning. Could some lurking fellow thought-police person please send me the patch for the programs: "When lesbian really means human" and "Difference between a declarative and a suggestion". Thanks much, {:-), Donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:23:33 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: To Write like a Woman "To Write Like a Woman : Essays in Feminism and Science Fiction" is a collection of Joanna Russ' articles. It was published in 1995 by Indiana University Press and is still in press. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:03:09 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Male heroes was Re: [*FSFFU*] Ammonite In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:47 24/03/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-24 09:53:34 EST, you write: > ><< Not all men are controllers, or dominating types, > not all by a long shot - I'm certainly not, and that has caused me > trouble in relationships with women who *expect* that type. >> > >I remember Alan Alda's complaint that women say they want the sensitive types, >yet they are consistently attracted to the macho types. There's a lot of truth >to that, unfortunately. What I want is someone with wonderful muscles on the >outside, and sweet sensitivity on the inside! (To think about, anyway. I >wouldn't know what to do with a real one.) > I suspect that the reverse has truth as well! Men say they want only casual sexual liaisons with women - but really prefer committed relationships! Once when I was studying the history of marriage laws - I was confused and often wondered why throughout the milennia, marriage laws/traditions/myths/taboos etc have been stacked towards forcing the female into marriage, and then keeping her there:)) and in divorce statistics, the overwhelming majority of those seeking divorce are the women, yet divorced men are far more likely to remarry - and also, it is primarily men who write the most poignant love poetry and songs. Perhaps, it is a myth that men are sexually aggressive and promiscuous, but deep down inside are corny romantics???? As for women being attracted to the macho types - maybe thats a natural biological hang-over, the desire to mate/ally with the *strongest* or *fittest* specimens - the "alpha" males? the current equivalent perhaps being powerful, wealthy ambitious men (control freaks ) in the corporate or government world? One of the things I find most fascinating about feminist sci-fi when male characters are drawn in some depth, is the exploration of the definitions of what constitutes the "alpha" male, (redefining *masculinity*?) or women's perspective on their male "heroes". Some recent examples I have read: - Bakhtian and Anatoly Sakhalin in Kate Elliot's _Jaran_ series, - Ra'an in M Bradley Kellogg's _A Rumour of Angels_ reminiscent of Fitzwilliam Darcy in Jane Austen's _Pride and Prejudice_ ?? Anyway, to bring this back to topic - I would like to ask the list for feedback on their favourite male characters in feminist sci-fi - and why they considered them attractive, or interesting or whatever? Thanks Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:45:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: sf and real life In-Reply-To: <4c41acef.35134e9b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, WaterLuv wrote: > Anybody remember a long past movie called _A Boy and His Dog_? Circa 1978? It > dealt with the earth after a nuclear war had devastated surface life. There > were a few people still eking out an existence on the surface. Many of these > were grotesque mutants, thanks to the lingering radiation. Life was a > constant, fierce struggle and violence was the method of choice to obtain food > and even sexual favors. Wow, this seems exactly like the life in my home country. Cholera and typhoid instead of radiation; no past nuclear war, just a "land before technology"; and no "even" in the last quoted sentence: violence is the _primary_ method of choice of obtaining sexual favors for many men (and totally backed by the government), the same for food. Does this really sound like science fiction for anyone? I mean, for $800 round trip (Tajik Air: London - Dushanbe, Tajikistan, three flights a week) you can go and see something like that in real world. And I'm afraid, it's not the only place. It's funny how much the definitions of "fantastic" and "realistic" depend on culture and environment. > > In contrast, there was an entire society underground. When you first discover > it, it seems so sweet and refreshing compared to the violent surface life. > Everything is clean. There is plenty to eat. Everyone is polite, genteel and > smiling. There seems to be no violence. But there are loudspeakers everywhere, > constantly piping in the goody-two-shoes messages of the ruling council. > Anyone who shows any slightest evidence of veering from the nonviolent, > cloyingly sweet routine is sent to the farm. Only later do you discover that > the farm is not a retreat, or even a reprogramming center, but a graveyard. > > The movie is a chilling look at enforced utopia. Reminiscent of the "Worker's > Paradise," which strangely needed razor wire and machine-gun nests to keep the > happy workers inside it. By the way, I did not see the movie, so I wonder, where did those kept inside were trying to escape? To the nightmare on the surface? Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:55:48 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: Male heroes was Re: [*FSFFU*] Ammonite Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-24 18:15:14 EST, you write: > Anyway, to bring this back to topic - I would like to ask the list for > feedback on their favourite male characters in feminist sci-fi - and why > they considered them attractive, or interesting or whatever? I loved Joshua in _The Gate to Women's Country_ by Sherri S. Tepper. He was great looking, but as old as I am. :-) He was wise. He was strong, but not the least bit pushy. He used his strenght for the protection of those he loved, not for their domination. He was loving. He was loyal. He was sensitive beyond measure, even having the gift of knowing things beyond the reach of his 5 senses. I'd say he'd make a good role model for any young male. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:33:02 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail2.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >I'm not talking about a character. I'm talking about seeing someone challenge >one of Ellison's statements, at which point Ellison told the guy he was a >"pinhead" and his comments were "rat puke." No debate, just vituperation. I >find that sort of behavior repugnant in a grown man. I agree. Ellison is one of the most repugnant, impatient, biased writers I've ever met...but I respect him because he owes up to it and doesn't make apologies for being, himself, very much a pinhead. - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:53:53 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Male heroes was Re: [*FSFFU*] Ammonite In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980325100309.007b5930@cs.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Anyway, to bring this back to topic - I would like to ask the list for > feedback on their favourite male characters in feminist sci-fi - and why > they considered them attractive, or interesting or whatever? > > Thanks > > > Julieanne > ppp98@cs.net.au > Blackbear in Joan Slonczewski's Daughter of Elysium because his attitudes towards childrearing and babies are similar to my own, that is he liked doing childcare, considered it natural for men to do spend time with small children, and in fact spent most of the novel walking around with a baby on his back. I still feel nostalgia for the days when my daughter fit in a backpack! Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:00:47 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: sf and real life Comments: To: Marina In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: A BOY AND HIS DOG - I'm sure the video stores have it. Look under "Cult Classics." Your comments on the resemblance to your homeland should be required reading for eveery anarchist in science fiction. Yes, Leslie Fish, I DO mean you! Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Male heroes was Re: [*FSFFU*] Ammonite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julieanne wrote: > Anyway, to bring this back to topic - I would like to ask the list > for feedback on their favourite male characters in feminist sci-fi > - and why they considered them attractive, or interesting or > whatever? I like Eykar Bek in *Walk to the End of the World* and *The Furies* by Suzy McKee Charnas. Despite the society around him, he is openminded and smart enough to see that the fems are not simply a lower form of life fit only for drudgery. The dialogue between him and Alldera in *WttEotW* fascinated me because there was such a gap in power & status between the two of them, history told both of them that communication was impossible, yet real communication did occur, haltingly. Bek is not portrayed as a well-adjusted guy, which I also like -- being so outside the norm for the men of the time, he is somewhat crazed and often miserable. A great characterization, IMO. I also like Eleanor Arnason's male characters in *Ring of Swords* (let's see if I can remember names), Gwarha & Nicholas. Ditto for Zhang in Maureen McHugh's *China Mountain Zhang*. These characters seem like full people to me; they're not boxed into stereotypical male behaviors. Hmmm... and they're all homosexual. I have a feeling that's not a coincidence. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC - English Settlement; Bran Van 3000 - Glee "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:49:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: In defense of Harlan (not that he needs me...)/ men in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Harlan Ellison has never been anything but sweet, kind and generous to me and mine. I have seen people get "in his face" just so they can have a story about "Harlan Ellison was rude to me" to tell their friends, and Harlan refuse to rise to the bait. Like the idea of discussing the men we enjoy in SF/Fantasy -- will have to mull. Right now, Wolf from _Dragon's Winter_ by Elizabeth Lynn comes to mind. I've enjoyed many of her characters, both male and female. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:35:48 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) In-Reply-To: <199803250542.AAA14928@mail2.wayne.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > >I'm not talking about a character. I'm talking about seeing someone > challenge > >one of Ellison's statements, at which point Ellison told the guy he was a > >"pinhead" and his comments were "rat puke." No debate, just vituperation. > I > >find that sort of behavior repugnant in a grown man. > > I agree. Ellison is one of the most repugnant, impatient, biased writers > I've ever met...but I respect him because he owes up to it and doesn't make > apologies for being, himself, very much a pinhead. > > - Geoffrey > When Ellison spoke at last year's Science Fiction Research Association in Long Beach, California, he had a question and answer session afterwards. When my wife raised her hand and started to ask a question, he made her stop and spit out her gum before he'd let her ask the question! He takes enormous pleasure from upsetting people. On the sexism in "A Boy and His Dog," though, remember that the story was written many years ago, before very many men had had their consciousness raised. Ellison is still a jerk, but he probably now qualifies as a male feminist jerk. He's equally obnoxious to people of both sexes and all sexual orientations in any case. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:18:38 -0800 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG: Dreamsnake discussion begins 4/6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm so glad to see all this great discussion about Ammonite. This was exactly what I had in mind when I suggested a book discussion group way back when last year. Thank you all so much! Please do continue discussing Ammonite as you're reading or re-reading Dreamsnake. I haven't heard anything from Nicola, but whether or when she joins us regarding Ammonite is up to her. I'm sure she's enjoying our discussion as much as we are, though. Soon we'll be doing another round of nominations for the next set of discussion books (to discuss June through November), so start thinking about what you might nominate. I'll announce dates for the nomination and voting periods probably next week. Volunteers to help out are welcome, please email me directly. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:40:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Defending Ellison: >> >I'm not talking about a character. I'm talking about seeing someone >> challenge >> >one of Ellison's statements, at which point Ellison told the guy he was a >> >"pinhead" and his comments were "rat puke." No debate, just vituperation. >> I >> >find that sort of behavior repugnant in a grown man. I don't. Not at all. Given today's society, there are large, repugnant numbers of people whose comments I would qualify as rat puke, and their issuer as a pinhead. Vituperation included. Although I must admit that knowing so little of the subject being discussed, I shouldn't comment. But I love Ellison. >> > >When Ellison spoke at last year's Science Fiction Research Association >in Long Beach, California, he had a question and answer session afterwards. >When my wife raised her hand and started to ask a question, he made her stop >and spit out her gum before he'd let her ask the question! He takes >enormous pleasure from upsetting people. Not to insult your wife, but I personally would feel offended if, after giving a lecture, someone asked me a question with gum in their mouth. I believe the offense is included occasionally in Miss Manners' column, if anyone desires to explore this. One would do well to wonder if the so-called "obnoxious" and "rude" behavior of many feminists - and indeed of Ellison himself - is due more to a simple clamoring for respect than anything else. light with you all - joseph santini * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you are so foolhardy as to ask a Whileawayan child to "be a good girl" and do something for you: "What does running other people's errands have to do with being a good girl? "Why can't you run your own errands? "Are you crippled?" -Joanna Russ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:50:05 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-25 15:46:30 EST, you write: << One would do well to wonder if the so-called "obnoxious" and "rude" behavior of many feminists - and indeed of Ellison himself - is due more to a simple clamoring for respect than anything else. >> Can you earn respect by crudely demonstrating that you have none for other people? The Golden Rule is still golden. Even if you think someone is an idiot, is it necessary for you to say so, loudly, in front of a roomful of people? Does that convince people that your point must be valid? I don't think so. Trying to make other people respect you is probably a bootless errand, anyway, because you can't control other people's attitudes or behavior. I think you need to live in the way that you feel is right, and if other people respect it or if they don't, fine. It's a very liberating point in life when you stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and just do what you believe in. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:05:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Bloodchild Reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Folks, A while ago someone posted that *bloodchild* was available on line. Does anyone still have the webpage reference? Thanks, pam ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:31:05 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kathleen House Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:58 PM 3/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >Ugh, > I just read Sheldon/Tiptree's "The Screwfly Solution" at lunch... wow >was it disturbing. I can't process anything else right now because of >it. And I thought that _I Who Never New Men_ (translated from French), >my last read, was unpleasant. > >misha >bernardm@colorado.edu > The thirteen and twelve year old boys in Kansas (who will not, unlike the 14 year old accused female killer of a girl in BC, be tried as adults) specifically targeted girls. The murder victims were four girls and one woman. Canadian Broadcast Services reported that the murders were gender-specific, based on information given by classmates. I have yet to hear one U.S. newscaster report this. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:55:09 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Anthea Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Mar 98 at 10:35, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > On the sexism in "A Boy and His Dog," though, remember that the > story was written many years ago, before very many men had had their > consciousness raised... Aren't you perhaps confusing the singer with the song? As I see it, the whole story leads up to the twist in its tail and thus the imperatives of Ellison's story dictated the narrator's character. For the story to work, the narrator had to be a survival-at- all-costs, extreme-sexist sociopath with his love for his dog as his only 'redeeming' trait. The reader has to be able to see the world of Ellison's story through the eyes of its protagonist, to judge the world in terms of its internal constraints. This tendency to confuse writers with their creations is a disturbing and ultimately self-defeating characteristic of far much criticism by women and their supporters. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The thirteen and twelve year old boys in Kansas (who will not, unlike the 14 year old accused female killer of a girl in BC, be tried as adults) specifically targeted girls. The murder victims were four girls and one woman. Canadian Broadcast Services reported that the murders were gender-specific, based on information given by classmates. I have yet to >hear one U.S. newscaster report this.> > >Kathleen In later editions, most papers were caring a full explanation of how the one boy had told friends he was going to kill his girlfriend cause she broke up with him and that he hated one of his female teachers (who was shot also I believe). Also I do not know if anyone noticed but the boy who shot up a prayer group in his school back in December also targeted girls but because he had not mentioned it, no one pointed it out. Puts much of Tiptree writings in a different perspective for me. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:54:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution In-Reply-To: <001001bd58a7$83f20160$dbae2499@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK: my two cents. Almost every kid-sponsored murder (at least those reported by the media - and if a girl killed some boys, would the media report it? doubts on my end) so far has been committed by males. This leads one to think almost immediately that those murders were inspired by females, not other males; while this may or may not be correct, it's certainly a worthy place to start. Why? Well: The Kansas kids, apparently, targeted young women in their classes. I recall another boy in Missouri who also killed girls. The current political hotbed in Arkansas - the 13yr old and 11yr old - killed four girls and one female teacher. Their apparent motive at the moment is revenge on an ex-girlfriend. Obviously today's society is doing a wonderful job of lessening estrangement between the sexes. To wit: parents and magazines, books and toys, movies and television, all need to investigate themselves and rid their products of gender-destructive or gender-deconstructive acts. ("But wont this mean we lost our femininity?") Gimme a break. Getting men to think of women in ways other than subordination has nothing to do with changing femininity. ("Huh?") Look, obviously those kids must have been thinking, "Well, the wimmin wouldn't do what we say like maw does with paw, so ah guess ah'll get the shotgun." I believe I even heard a newscast to this effect. There is still this whole rampant ideology spread throughout our culture intimating the superiority of men and inferiority of women. (Quick, draw a cop. Is it male? Probably.) Who're the priests? Who're the producers? This has nothing to do with equality, simply to do with what we've come to be accustomed to at expense of reality. Kids with guns bother me. Kids with guns who use them on other kids upsets me. And kids with guns who have been subjected to these ideologies which teach them that their superiority allows them to do such things scares me. Thoughts? Joe - Aspiring Feminist At 06:08 diem 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>The thirteen and twelve year old boys in Kansas (who will not, unlike the >14 year old accused female killer of a girl in BC, be tried as adults) >specifically targeted girls. The murder victims were four girls and one >woman. Canadian Broadcast Services reported that the murders were >gender-specific, based on information given by classmates. I have yet to >>hear one U.S. newscaster report this.> >> >>Kathleen > > > >In later editions, most papers were caring a full explanation of how the one >boy had told friends he was going to kill his girlfriend cause she broke up >with him and that he hated one of his female teachers (who was shot also I >believe). > >Also I do not know if anyone noticed but the boy who shot up a prayer group >in his school back in December also targeted girls but because he had not >mentioned it, no one pointed it out. > >Puts much of Tiptree writings in a different perspective for me. > >donna >donnaneely@earthlink.net > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you are so foolhardy as to ask a Whileawayan child to "be a good girl" and do something for you: "What does running other people's errands have to do with being a good girl? "Why can't you run your own errands? "Are you crippled?" -Joanna Russ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:13:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mark Schebel Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.19980325212640.08af785a@mail.halcyon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Kathleen House wrote: > At 12:58 PM 3/23/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Ugh, > > I just read Sheldon/Tiptree's "The Screwfly Solution" at lunch... wow > >was it disturbing. I can't process anything else right now because of > >it. And I thought that _I Who Never New Men_ (translated from French), > >my last read, was unpleasant. > > > >misha > >bernardm@colorado.edu > > > > The thirteen and twelve year old boys in Kansas (who will not, unlike the > 14 year old accused female killer of a girl in BC, be tried as adults) > specifically targeted girls. The murder victims were four girls and one > woman. Canadian Broadcast Services reported that the murders were > gender-specific, based on information given by classmates. I have yet to > hear one U.S. newscaster report this. > > Kathleen > hmmmm...all of the newspapers here (Iowa city, Iowa) made reports that the shootings we're probably gender-specific. One thing, though: the kids to are accused of doing the shootings have not said for whom they were aiming. therefore, in the "spirit" of news, it would be a little off for a newspaper or newstations to say "these shootings were gender specific". But the newspapers here have said that police are guessing that he was shooting for his girlfriend. whether or not that's gender specific or person specific, who knows. But the police basically said (according to our papers, again), that they probably shot towards girls since that's where his ex-girlfriend was (in a group of girls). -mark ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Schebel "You know I hate to ask... wage@hellyeah.com But are friends electric?" www.hellyeah.com/slackers/wage -gary numan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:32:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? In-Reply-To: <2994af5c.3519b44f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Lurima wrote: > >> > Can you earn respect by crudely demonstrating that you have none for other > people? As I remember my adolescence, this is the first attempt to break out of an "Everybody steps on me" pattern. If you're lucky or perceptive it is only a transient phase. But when meeting someone that rude I try to mentally see if the fit the adolescent pattern of trying not to be dissed. Surprising how many do. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:10:28 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Viewpoint characters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-26 04:04:56 EST, you write: << The reader has to be able to see the world of Ellison's story through the eyes of its protagonist, to judge the world in terms of its internal constraints. >> This remark leads me to a problem I'm having with a manuscript. Perhaps some writers on the list have a solution. I'm writing a novel that follows the actions of two characters from the turning point in their lives that shape them into the kind of people they are, up to the point where they meet, and then on to the consequences that result from their interaction. They come from two different worlds--literally! The trouble is that one of the characters is pretty unpleasant to start with. I'm trying to show why she's as she is, but I find that readers don't want to stick with her for very long if she is too unsympathetic. (She started out as my villain, but after Scott Card suggested I backtrack to show why she behaves as she does, I find myself less judgmental of her than I was!) Also, the shaping event in her life takes place when she's around sixteen, so a couple of editors (ex. Ginjer Buchanan) assume it's a YA novel before they get far enough to see that it isn't. Any suggestions? barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:46:14 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Le Anne Fossmeyer Subject: FW: The Screwfly Solution/Arkansas mass murderers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain There was initially quite a bit of talk about the gender of the victims. But, you're right that it hasn't been much discussed since then. The actual account from the classmate is that the boys were targeting one specific girl who was, as most girls of that age, surrounded by her girl friends. The woman who was killed was her teacher who jumped in the way when she saw that cluster of girls go down. Considering that the boys fired approximately five hundred rounds and hit only about twenty people (sorry, I don't mean to sound callous or crass), we'd have to assume the boys weren't good shots. I think many people therefore consider the gender of the killed as almost coincidental, in that the boys weren't accurate enough to specifically kill girls and that the girls just happened to be tragically in the vicinity of the "real target." Of course, no one in the media has, and probably no one will, liken the boys to the many adult males who kill women they know, or question how and why society fosters/encourages/propagates/accepts/ignores such violence against females. Then again, maybe we need to look at ourselves. We aren't yelling and screaming about it. We aren't organized and we aren't protesting or demanding an explanation from our media and leaders. If those white boys had targeted an African-American child, a large portion of the American populace would be calling government offices, radio stations, TV stations, network news organizations, and newspapers demanding action and investigation and attention specifically to the racial issues that might have affected the white boys' decision to murder. If you want the gender issues explored, you're going to have to force it. The dominant culture gives up nothing easily. Here's the feedback URLs for the major US TV news organizations. ABC: http://www.abcnews.com/onair/email.html CBS: http://www.cbs.com/navbar/feedback.html CNN: send e-mail to cnn.onair@cnn.com or use the form at http://www.cnn.com/feedback/ NBC: http://www.nbc.com/email.html I'm drafting a letter myself.... > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen House [SMTP:kmhouse@HALCYON.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 9:31 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution > > At 12:58 PM 3/23/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Ugh, > > I just read Sheldon/Tiptree's "The Screwfly Solution" at > lunch... wow > >was it disturbing. I can't process anything else right now because > of > >it. And I thought that _I Who Never New Men_ (translated from > French), > >my last read, was unpleasant. > > > >misha > >bernardm@colorado.edu > > > > The thirteen and twelve year old boys in Kansas (who will not, unlike > the > 14 year old accused female killer of a girl in BC, be tried as adults) > specifically targeted girls. The murder victims were four girls and > one > woman. Canadian Broadcast Services reported that the murders were > gender-specific, based on information given by classmates. I have yet > to > hear one U.S. newscaster report this. > > Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:22:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Joseph says: > Almost every kid-sponsored murder (at least those reported by the media - and > if a girl killed some boys, would the media report it? doubts on my end) so far > has been committed by males. Speaking as a member of the media: if a gun-toting girl ever shot up a bunch of boys, we'd be all over that story, precisely because it's a rarity. -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution In-Reply-To: <199803261722.MAA16218@mime2.prodigy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:22 nox 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >-- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- > >Joseph says: >> Almost every kid-sponsored murder (at least those reported by the >media - and >> if a girl killed some boys, would the media report it? doubts on my >end) so far >> has been committed by males. > >Speaking as a member of the media: if a gun-toting girl ever shot up a >bunch of boys, we'd be all over that story, precisely because it's a >rarity. >-- >David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com And why aren't you "all over" THIS story? how come it isn't a rarity for a gun-totin' boy to shoot into a bunch of girls? i have heard NOTHING about Arkansas today, thus far, and I've been watching the news all morning. There will be nothing in the news about this by the end of the week, mark my words. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you are so foolhardy as to ask a Whileawayan child to "be a good girl" and do something for you: "What does running other people's errands have to do with being a good girl? "Why can't you run your own errands? "Are you crippled?" -Joanna Russ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:50:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) In-Reply-To: <199803260849.KAA08190@mail.global.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Anthea wrote: > On 25 Mar 98 at 10:35, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > On the sexism in "A Boy and His Dog," though, remember that the > > story was written many years ago, before very many men had had their > > consciousness raised... > > Aren't you perhaps confusing the singer with the song? As I see it, > the whole story leads up to the twist in its tail and thus the > imperatives of Ellison's story dictated the narrator's character. For > the story to work, the narrator had to be a survival-at- all-costs, > extreme-sexist sociopath with his love for his dog as his only > 'redeeming' trait. The reader has to be able to see the world of > Ellison's story through the eyes of its protagonist, to judge the > world in terms of its internal constraints. > > This tendency to confuse writers with their creations is a > disturbing and ultimately self-defeating characteristic of far much > criticism by women and their supporters. > > AJ > ----------------------------------------- No, I don't believe I am confusing the singer with the song or the writer with his creation. It is of course always dangerous to equate the beliefs of a character in a story with those of the author--Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" being the classic example--but that isn't to say that the actual beliefs of the author cannot be judged or at least approximated using a story as evidence. Was the Harlan Ellison who wrote this story back in the 1960s or early 1970s identical in belief and insight to the title character of the story? Of course not. Did he share some of the attitudes of that title character, attitudes that some readers then and more readers today would find objectionable? Definitely. When Ellison has the Boy choose his Dog over the girl, he's knows exactly what he's doing and his purpose, in part, is to shock his audience, but he can only do this and get away with it within the context of his day (remember the story was enormously popular) because of certain attitudes that he and his (at the time) mostly young, mostly male audience shared about women and relationships. Interesting sideline--at one point, oh ten or fifteen years ago, Ellison was supposedly working on a novel-length version of A Boy and His Dog. Locus even published a picture of the book's cover. But it never appeared. I wonder why. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:38:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: teragram Subject: The Screwfly Solution - film at eleven In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980326125119.007178c0@haverford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >And why aren't you "all over" THIS story? how come it isn't a rarity for a >gun-totin' boy to shoot into a bunch of girls? i have heard NOTHING about >Arkansas today, thus far, and I've been watching the news all morning. >There will be nothing in the news about this by the end of the week, mark >my words. Interesting - it seems there are two sides to the media coverage of violence directed against women. One is that it pervasive and used to 'keep women in their place' by playing on their (valid) fears - women who are alone are often automatic targets in much of the media we see on a daily basis. Which leads a lot of women to restrict their activities - and their lives - out of fear of the stranger. On the other hand, a lot of the recent murders of women that I've heard about involve a man (or boy) killing his estranged wife/girlfriend, and anyone else that happens to be in the way at the time. Most victims of rape know their rapists. And I haven't seen any real media coverage adding this up. So, it is the men we know who are killing and torturing us? that's a depressing little thought for you. And if the dinosaurs don't trample us, and the grasshoppers don't eat the garden, we'll all live to see better days, knock on wood. - Sabrina (The Skin of Our Teeth) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:30:30 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution >This leads one to think almost >immediately that those murders were inspired by females, not other males; I assume that there's a word or two missing there: e.g. 'inspired by antagonism towards females'? I don't see how the murders can have been 'inspired' by females (to me, and this may be stylistic nit-picking, this sounds like a 'cherchez-le-femme' type of explanation that a woman/women must be behind the shooting, which I am sure is not what you intend at all). While women may have been the objects of the attack, presumably it was the males together who 'inspired' one another with the whole idea. Violence against women is both an attack on women and also a gesture towards (assumed to be like-minded) other men. The whole thing makes me very glad that, for all its shortcomings, I live in the UK, where at least guns are not generally available. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:35:39 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail1.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ><< > One would do well to wonder if the so-called "obnoxious" and "rude" > behavior of many feminists - and indeed of Ellison himself - is due more to > a simple clamoring for respect than anything else. > >> >Can you earn respect by crudely demonstrating that you have none for other >people? The Golden Rule is still golden. Even if you think someone is an >idiot, is it necessary for you to say so, loudly, in front of a roomful of >people? Does that convince people that your point must be valid? I don't think >so. Trying to make other people respect you is probably a bootless errand, >anyway, because you can't control other people's attitudes or behavior. I >think you need to live in the way that you feel is right, and if other people >respect it or if they don't, fine. It's a very liberating point in life when >you stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and just do what you believe >in. I don't think Ellison cares if anyone respects him. He speaks his mind - like many feminists - and damns the consequences. No apologies, no regrets. Does this make him a person I want to emulate? No. Would I give my eye teeth to be half the writer he is? Hell yes. Forget success - I can live with working on computers for the rest of my life and teaching the occasional HTML and Java programming class - if I could be as good a writer as he is, then I'd be happy with my written work. I think Ellison is a difficult subject to approach; he's a man of too many mysteries, even, I'm sure, to his own mind. That's what draws us to his stories, and to the works of others like Philip Dick and William Burroughs (I wouldn't want to emulate those two, either - would you?): an enigmatic, self-righteous, f**k-you-all attitude...this argument will simply turn over things that have been said about the man for the past 25, 30 years...the point is, there's no definite place you can put Harlan Ellison. He's just simply Harlan Ellison - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:40:03 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail1.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >>When my wife raised her hand and started to ask a question, he made her stop >>and spit out her gum before he'd let her ask the question! He takes >>enormous pleasure from upsetting people. >Not to insult your wife, but I personally would feel offended if, after >giving a lecture, someone asked me a question with gum in their mouth. I'd have to agree - I find it slightly disrespectful if my students (or even my friends, actually) are chewing gum while carrying on a conversation or asking a question... It's not a question of pleasure in upsetting people. It's a question of respect, both to the lecturer and yourself (the questioner). - Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'll match and raise you a nickel. (see below) >OK: my two cents. >Obviously today's society is doing a wonderful job of lessening estrangement between the sexes. Getting men to think of women in ways other than subordination has nothing to do with changing femininity. ("Huh?") Look, obviously those kids must have been thinking, "Well, the wimmin wouldn't do what we say like maw does with paw, so ah guess ah'll get the shotgun." I believe I even heard a newscast to this effect. There is still this whole rampant ideology spread throughout our culture intimating the superiority of men and inferiority of women. >Joe - Aspiring Feminist I believe it is a broader issue than male/female. It is about power. It seems to me much of our society is about who is up and who is down. When down you try to get up, sometimes by any means necessary(the boys shooting). Those you perceive as down visa vi your own position seem to pay the price (the girls shot). If these boys are mimicked with mispelled southern styled language, or painted into a dominant/submissive parental relationship, those of us in this dialogue who are northern, educated, raised by two working parents, etc have been given a way to feel we are different (better?) than those we are observing. See they are uneducated, what can you expect. Voila....I am up, those boys are down. I can excuse myself from culpability. And that very thought is the root of all evil. We are all in this together. If i cannot see myself in that 11 year boy who staged such a horror, than it is impossible for me to help him. I need to be asking myself what would make me feel such rage? When I see it, I can take effective action as a member of this grand society to help rid him (or other anger children) of what enrages him and then and only then will it stop. Prison will not stop the rage. Only inflame it. When we see ourselves in each other we cannot kill one another. And those more wise than I have said this before me. IMHO, donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:05:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I don't think Ellison cares if anyone respects him. He speaks his mind - like many feminists - and damns the consequences. No apologies, no regrets. Does this make him a person I want to emulate? No. Would I give my eye >teeth to be half the writer he is? > >Hell yes. > A strong abrasive will dull the shine of any diamond making it of lesser value in any measure of its finest aspects. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really am missing something here......HOW is chewing gum disrespectful????? And what level of respect do you think Mr Ellison deserves and yourself for that matter? I believe you are both just human beings like the rest of us are you not. If someone judges another as fit to engage in thoughtful conversation, I would submit that that is being pretty darn respectful in this day and age. (see postings on guns and children: the modern days response to disrepect). donna >>>When my wife raised her hand and started to ask a question, he made her stop and spit out her gum before he'd let her ask the question! He takes enormous pleasure from upsetting people. Not to insult your wife, but I personally would feel offended if, after giving a lecture, someone asked me a question with gum in their mouth. > >I'd have to agree - I find it slightly disrespectful if my students (or even my friends, actually) are chewing gum while carrying on a conversation or asking a question... > >It's not a question of pleasure in upsetting people. It's a question of >respect, both to the lecturer and yourself (the questioner). > >- Geoffrey > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:35:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: Re: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? In-Reply-To: <003d01bd592d$2df3e180$1eae2499@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:05 nox 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I don't think Ellison cares if anyone respects him. He speaks his mind - >like many feminists - and damns the consequences. No apologies, no regrets. >Does this make him a person I want to emulate? No. Would I give my eye >>teeth to be half the writer he is? >> >>Hell yes. >> > >A strong abrasive will dull the shine of any diamond making it of lesser >value in any measure of its finest aspects. > >donna >donnaneely@earthlink.net > Ah, but a diamond begins as a piece of coal, and only the strongest of pressures and most destructive of forces can make it the thing of beauty that it is. And perhaps we appreciate the diamond less when it is perfect, than when it has some measure of imperfection. In any case, I have a difficult time believing any of Ellison's work feminist. He was an alienist in the purest sense of the word, and one of the reasons his work was so great was that he realized this sense of the alien in himself. Perhaps the reason so many feminists connect with his works is due to that sense of separation from society he includes in his stories, but the stories themselves do not advocate feminist values, merely a more general concept-of-self cohesion. joe * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you are so foolhardy as to ask a Whileawayan child to "be a good girl" and do something for you: "What does running other people's errands have to do with being a good girl? "Why can't you run your own errands? "Are you crippled?" -Joanna Russ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:41:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980326075425.006fd958@haverford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Honestly, what caught my attention about these Arkansas kids murdering other kids was the fact, that the parents of the older one ("the nice one", who came up with the whole idea) were both local postmasters. There seems to be something mysteriously gothic about the frequency of unmotivated violence among the postal workers in the past several years. It might be just a coincidence, but nevertheless. There was a discussion about this in my office today, and I was wondering if were some chemicals present in post offices that affect people's brain and genetical makeup. "Going postal" has lately become a wide-known phrase meaning "losing one's mind and going on a killing spree", and no one has even tried to come up with an explanation so far. Concerning the kid who shot several girls in a group prayer circle in Kentucky, the most amazing points for me were: 1. The devotedly "Christian" community of the town where it happened were mostly shocked that the boy was one of their church-going "nice" kids. That he was not a long-haired "satanist" with blachknail polish, listening to rock-music or something. 2. Because of his being "one of them" the highly religious community not only forgave him barely having buried the victims, but also "prayed" for the soul of this murderer, complete with all the crap about forgiveness. I can bet anything in the world, that if that kid was known for going to rock concerts instead of the Sunday school, he would get none of this "Christian" compassion. Instead, there would be a nationwide campaign on banning rock music beacause of its "obvious destructive influence on young souls". I can see a crowd of conservative politicians popping up all over the country with slogans like "Save the children from satanic influence" an stuff like that. Honestly, this rise of violence among the children does not surprise me at all. Look where they all live: Kentucky, Arkansas -- all the white ultra-conservative small towns in backwater states far away from civilization. As someone living in Oklahoma, I can tell you what kind of cultural environment these children are growing up in. People here would still do lynching and burn witches at the stake (along with "heretics", i.e. everyone who does not share their brainwashed set of dogmas), if given a chance. In my opinion, children are simply expressing all the hatred, intolerance, and hypocricy presented as "moral values" they are raised on, and act out what the adults around them only wish they could do. The fact that all the murderers targeted girls or female teachers is quite natural in the atmosphere of misogyny, exasperated by the attempts to improve the status of women, coming from "big city culture". It's the same resentment as the one created by the dvancement of minorities: "they are taking over, and we are going to be left with nothing", except that blacks are not always around to get back on, and women are. Of course, this is just my opinion. But if you think I am exaggerating, just pay attention what kind of information about the murderers media concentrates on: a) whether they were "nice" kids going to Sunday school (I guess if they did not go to Church, they could be mass murderers by no surprise); b) whether their parents are still together, which also makes them "less likely murderers" (even if the members of their "solid family" throw things at each other behind the closed doors, as long as they are not divorced, it's still a "healthy background"); c) how much they could have been affected by the "violence on TV", and when the government is finally going to shut it all down, for the sake of children's safety (the idea that once people cannot see murders on the screen, they would not know they existed always makes me wonder where people learned how to kill before TV was invented. And how come that in countries like mine, where TV never broadcasts anything but folk music and dances, they manage to slaughter 10% of the population in five years. Must have been all those bootleg tapes with Hollywood movies). If you see the media mention any other social cause for this tradegy, besides the ones mentioned above, please let me know. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:37:37 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: harlan: a jerk or not a jerk? In-Reply-To: <199803270240.VAA01470@mail1.wayne.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In my opinion, telling another person to spit out her gum is a lot more disrespectful than asking a question with a gum in your mouth. Who is he, after all to tell her how to behave, her father? If a person who came there unshaved asked him a question, would he tell him to go and shave first? Or tell him to change his shirt? I doubt it. I also doubt that he would say anything like that at all to a man. Because a guy would probably just tell him to go and fuck himself. The most satisfying way to deal with rude people and those who try to push you around is to feed them their own medicine. It can be pretty difficult, but it's worth it. Besides, they need to be taught a lesson every once in a while. Marina On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Geoffrey D. Sperl wrote: > >>When my wife raised her hand and started to ask a question, he made her > stop > >>and spit out her gum before he'd let her ask the question! He takes > >>enormous pleasure from upsetting people. > >Not to insult your wife, but I personally would feel offended if, after > >giving a lecture, someone asked me a question with gum in their mouth. > > I'd have to agree - I find it slightly disrespectful if my students (or even > my friends, actually) are chewing gum while carrying on a conversation or > asking a question... > > It's not a question of pleasure in upsetting people. It's a question of > respect, both to the lecturer and yourself (the questioner). > > - Geoffrey > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:42:38 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) In-Reply-To: <004201bd592e$2ceae080$1eae2499@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, donna simone wrote: > I really am missing something here......HOW is chewing gum > disrespectful????? Perhaps this is a cultural thing. In the UK talking to someone while chewing is regarded as the _height_ of bad manners. But even chewing, outside the normal context of _eating_, is about as socially acceptable as farting loudly. I would certainly throw a student out of a class if he or she was chewing, and I know that I am not alone in that... but, mind you, I have _never_ known it happen. It would be even less likely than someone lighting up in class (which I have also never known happen, in 28 years of university teaching). Last night I saw a very old video of Eddy Cochrane performing in front of an American tv audience of teenagers -- _everyone_ of whom was chewing. I just can't imagine that happening outside the USA. (Personally, although I know I ought to be tolerant, and even though I am, in the name of liberty, going on the big march tomorrow through London in favour of legalising cannabis, I still find the sight of gum-chewers repulsive... and I can't _help_ that reaction.) Apologies. I realise this is nothing to do with science fiction... Except as a reminder that sf readers around the world DO come from very different cultures, where very different things are socially acceptable. (In this country -- Britain, that is -- I have only ever met one person who owned a gun: he's a prize-winning pistol-shooter, who of course has had to get rid of his gun, because handguns are no longer legal here. So seeing the video of that teenage assassin in Arkansas opening up his Christmas present of a shot gun at the age of seven is possibly the closest _I_ will ever get to witnessing a _really_ alien culture in operation... a culture that, despite exposure to it constantly over the last fifty years, I shall never really understand...) Remember that Ray Bradbury story, where a man from a future leaves a loaded pistol in the bed of the young child of the man who has invented some ghastly super-weapon and is about to unleash it on the world. "Who in their right minds would give a loaded gun to a child?", or words to that effect, was the punchline, coming from the father. Answer, I suppose: someone from Arkansas... Edward James Reading, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:29:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution In-Reply-To: <003801bd592c$693bc600$1eae2499@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I noticed long ago that in novels written or set in the earlier part of the century, older women - leftover Victorian women - were seen as verbally domineering and abusive. My personal experience led me to believe that today, men were. Now I realize we're both seeing the same things: people who are losing power (and yes, older Victorian married women WERE losing power, if only their absolute reign at home) are lashing back. They always have and always will. The end of the Civil War and proposed rights for African Americans led to the Ku Klux Klan. The French Revolution produced some very vicious, if unsuccessful, counter-revolutions (and one Victor Hugo novel about one of them). Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:04:16 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) In-Reply-To: <004201bd592e$2ceae080$1eae2499@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, donna simone wrote: > I really am missing something here......HOW is chewing gum > disrespectful????? And what level of respect do you think Mr Ellison > deserves and yourself for that matter? I believe you are both just human > beings like the rest of us are you not. If someone judges another as fit to > engage in thoughtful conversation, I would submit that that is being pretty > darn respectful in this day and age. (see postings on guns and children: > the modern days response to disrepect). > > donna > >I'd have to agree - I find it slightly disrespectful if my students (or > even my friends, actually) are chewing gum while carrying on a conversation > or asking a question... > > > >It's not a question of pleasure in upsetting people. It's a question of > >respect, both to the lecturer and yourself (the questioner). > > > >- Geoffrey > > > Having raised the gum chewing issue, I think it's now my job to come down firmly on both sides. Grade school teachers hate gum chewers for a variety of reasons. Chewing gum may or may not be disrespectful, depending, I would suggest, on the attitude of the chewer, but it's also messy, unsanitary, sticky, and makes the student hard to understand when they speak. When Ellison told my wife to spit out her gum before asking her question her response was to say something along the lines of, "oh, well, of course, I wouldn't let one my students talk to me with gum in their mouths either" (note, however, that my wife works with emotionally disturbed adolescents, not adults). A couple of things about the episode were bothersome, however. First of all, it isn't entirely clear that an informal public lecture, where the speaker is bouncing around all over the place, swearing, making extreme comments, behaving like an absolutely brilliant, if manic 10 year old genius, and generally being entertaining as all get out, operates under the same rules of old fashioned decorum as a formal elementary school class room does. Also, it was abundantly clear that the episode, complete with Ellison's insistence that she spit the gum into his hand (!), was primarily intended as theater of embarrassment rather than a lesson in manners. We're talking Don Rickles here, not Emily Post or Ms. Manners. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:37:36 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Anthea Subject: Re: FSFFU: The Screwfly Solution In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980326075425.006fd958@haverford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Mar 98 at 7:54, joseph santini: MPG wrote: > Almost every kid-sponsored murder (at least those reported by the media - > and if a girl killed some boys, would the media report it? doubts on my > end) so far has been committed by males. Judging from a distance (and largely by CNN), the US media seems to have done an excellent job in wringing out all relevant (and even more irrelevant) details and publishing them repeatedly - almost to the point of nausea. I'm certain that the media would seize on a 'girl killed some boys' story if only because there have been so many murders by boys, reporters must be looking for some new angle! AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:37:36 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Anthea Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Mar 98 at 12:50, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > .......-but that isn't to say that the actual beliefs of the > author cannot be judged or at least approximated using a story as > evidence. No one can possibly 'approximate' an author's actual beliefs from a single story or small group of stories. Even skilled researchers may spend years studying the life and entire corpus of a writer without being able to reach unassailable conclusions on his beliefs. The best a reader can do is to 'approximate' the image the author intended to convey. I say 'approximate' because a reader with strong views will certainly consciously or unconsciously distort any image - however carefully contructed. Last semester, I read analyses by three of my students of Ellison's treatment of the female character in another story ('I have no mouth...'); the analyses reflected the individual students' personal, social and political beliefs so closely that it was difficult to believe that they were describing the same author. > When Ellison has the Boy choose his Dog over the girl, he's knows exactly > what he's doing and his purpose, in part, is to shock his audience, but he > can only do this and get away with it within the context of his day... One must also judge a story in the context of the time it was published (difficult though it is for me to say anything nice about post-modernism). You're judging the story from a revisionist perspective, one that didn't exist when the story was written. This is dangerous because it leads one to impute discreditable motives where none exists. I like the story _as a story_ because I don't take it as a literal or even allegorical suggestion that Ellison thinks that my place is in his dog's dinner bowl! > that he and his (at the time) mostly young, mostly male audience > shared about women and relationships. That would have been true in the 50s, but it certainly wasn't true of the mid-60s or early 70s. Look, for example, at one of the several series of annual sf anthologies (for example 'Best SF stories of ...). The changes in story mix from the late 50s clearly demonstrate a growing female audience; by the early 70s the progress to our present state was largely complete. Again examine the change in content and style of stories which won the major sf prizes over the same period; if you allow for the inevitable lag, the same picture emerges. The women of the 50s, 60s and 70s were not the passive creatures you seem to imagine. The real successes of the women's movement to date have been won quietly by the efforts of millions of women moving out - without fanfare or self-serving publicity - into the real world. I find it insulting when every few years, the women's movement suffers from a new crop of self-appointed messiahs who decry the hard-won victories our mothers and grandmothers achieved. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:06:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rachael Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >A couple of things about the episode were bothersome, however. First of >all, it isn't entirely clear that an informal public lecture, where the >speaker is bouncing around all over the place, swearing, making extreme >comments, behaving like an absolutely brilliant, if manic 10 year old genius, >and generally being entertaining as all get out, operates under the same >rules of old fashioned decorum as a formal elementary school class room >does. Also, it was abundantly clear that the episode, complete with >Ellison's insistence that she spit the gum into his hand (!), was >primarily intended as theater of embarrassment rather than a lesson in >manners. We're talking Don Rickles here, not Emily Post or Ms. Manners. Isn't Mr. Ellison a little old to be acting like the---what was the term he was pushing for so long?---"enfant terrible" of the science-fiction community? And "10 year old genius" is right...which is behavior considered a bit slow for a man in his 60's. --Rachael ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:36:48 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) Comments: To: e.f.james@reading.ac.uk In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:42 27/03/98 +0000, Edward James wrote: >On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, donna simone wrote: > >> I really am missing something here......HOW is chewing gum >> disrespectful????? > >Perhaps this is a cultural thing. In the UK talking to someone while >chewing is regarded as the _height_ of bad manners. (snip) I just can't imagine that happening >outside the USA. (Personally, although I know I ought to be >tolerant, and even though I am, in the name of liberty, going on the >big march tomorrow through London in favour of legalising cannabis, I >still find the sight of gum-chewers repulsive... and I can't _help_ that >reaction.) >Apologies. I realise this is nothing to do with science fiction... Except >as a reminder that sf readers around the world DO come from very >different cultures, where very different things are socially acceptable. >(In this country -- Britain, that is -- I have only ever met one person >who owned a gun: he's a prize-winning pistol-shooter, who of course has >had to get rid of his gun, because handguns are no longer legal here. So >seeing the video of that teenage assassin in Arkansas opening up his >Christmas present of a shot gun at the age of seven is possibly the >closest _I_ will ever get to witnessing a _really_ alien culture in >operation... a culture that, despite exposure to it constantly over the >last fifty years, I shall never really understand...) I have to agree with you Edward, I often find myself seeing American culture as truly "alien" and fascinating, partly because it is so all-pervasive through electronic and print media - and so there is this constant exposure to it in other countries. I suspect it is partly due to the country being originally settled by Puritans, with a whole host of double-standards...one example which comes to mind is the extremes of television: one the one hand, free-to-air TV is so aesthetically *clean* morally, (even toothpaste ads have no hint of bathroom nudity etc)...but flip-the-switch to cable and its anything goes.. All automatic and semi-automatic weapons here are also illegal. Prior to making them illegal they werent all-pervasive throughout the country/culture anyway. A few years ago a pyschotic massacred 30+ tourists with a stolen semi-automatic weapon, and Australians more or less complied with the new laws for all such weapons to be turned in voluntarily by their owners, ( with varying degrees of success, but far greater success than was expected) - and invoking a small federal taxation levy on tax-payers for the government to "buy-back" all the privately owned weapons. Some heavily restricted exemptions were made, e.g sporting rifle and gun clubs have registered weapons available for use by members on-site etc. > >Remember that Ray Bradbury story, where a man from a future leaves a >loaded pistol in the bed of the young child of the man who has invented >some ghastly super-weapon and is about to unleash it on the world. "Who in >their right minds would give a loaded gun to a child?", or words to that >effect, was the punchline, coming from the father. Answer, I suppose: >someone from Arkansas... Yes, such double-standards are the "bread-and-butter" of satirists - nonetheless, for me one of the most positive attributes of a list such as this, is being able to receive opinions/thoughts from people in the USA about this event where media coverage is obviously far more extensive, than the 30-second brief clips our news-service gives us of such international events. Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:34:52 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: Male heroes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980325100309.007b5930@cs.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Anyway, to bring this back to topic - I would like to ask the list for > feedback on their favourite male characters in feminist sci-fi - and why > they considered them attractive, or interesting or whatever? > I think my favourite male heroes are Yod from *He, She and It* and Zev from *Starfarer*. I had decided on both before realizing that both aren't really men. Yod is an android and Zev is an orca. Both are sympathetic characters, but also strong and gifted in a particular way. I also liked Joshua from *Gate to Women's Country* and one of the characters (can't remember his name) from *The Maerlande Chronicles*. I guess the end result is that I don't like macho men in literature! Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university But play, you must, A tune beyond us, yet ourselves, A tune upon the blue guitar Of things exactly as they are -Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:03:14 -0500 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm delurking here -- I don't want to get off on the wrong foot, but all this criticism of Harlan Ellison is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. For the record, I have read quite a few of Mr. Ellison's stories, and many of his essays, and also seen some of his commentaries on Sci-Fi buzz on the Sci-Fi channel. His writing is deliberately provocative, because the state of humanity and the world often makes him angry. He does not write nice, safe little tales about people behaving nicely to one another in perfect utopias. As for the lack of feminist viewpoint in his writing, of the stories of his that I have read, the female characters in them always seemed to have strength and individuality. Just because many of them are not "good women" doesn't mean he is a male chauvinist pig. Few of the characters in his fiction, male, female, or alien, are good or virtuous. Someone said that they were offended by his vituperative reaction to someone's question, or criticism, or something. From what I know (from reading his essays and hearing his interviews) these are the things that seem to upset him the most: censorship, hypocrisy, not getting paid for one's work, not getting credited for one's work, "political correctness" as a form of censorship of freedom of speech and the free flow of ideas, mindless and pointless violence in movies, Hollywood movie formula in general, fans not treating authors with respect, sycophants, repression, authoritarianism, scientific inaccuracy in science-fiction film-making (i.e.: audible explosions in the vacuum of outer space) for effect, people who think that a writer (or any other artist) owes something to the public other than the work of art he or she produced, and prejudice. The person who wrote in about his "rat-puke" comment did not say what he was reacting to, so I have no way of knowing whether or not it fell under the heading of one of the above. And I am sure my list is incomplete. And I can't for the life of me understand what is wrong with asking someone to take a wad of gum out of their mouth when they speak. If it had been me I would have rather swallowed the gum than ask a question while chomping away on it. And it seems to me that he asked rather nicely, even offering his _own_ hand for the young woman in question to deposit the gum into. Quite frankly, that is going beyond the call of duty for one's fans. And I am sorry if the young woman was embarrassed, but then maybe she should have been. > >and generally being entertaining as all get out, operates under the same > >rules of old fashioned decorum as a formal elementary school class room > >does. Also, it was abundantly clear that the episode, complete with > >Ellison's insistence that she spit the gum into his hand (!), was > >primarily intended as theater of embarrassment rather than a lesson in > >manners. We're talking Don Rickles here, not Emily Post or Ms. Manners. In a "formal elementary school class room" no one would have been chewing gum. > Isn't Mr. Ellison a little old to be acting like the---what was the term > he was pushing for so long?---"enfant terrible" of the science-fiction > community? And "10 year old genius" is right...which is behavior considered > a bit slow for a man in his 60's. > > --Rachael I find it very strange that on a list dedicated (supposedly) to feminism in science-fiction we are hung up over the behavior of a writer who is, at the very least, not exactly an enemy to the feminist cause; yet we (those of us who are women, anyway) resent and criticize any attempt of others to dictate to us how _we_ should behave. Lilith -- ************* http://www.concentric.net/~Ligeia/ * The Web * http://members.tripod.com/~othiym/ * Universe * http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2527/ ************* http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5057/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:02:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) Comments: To: Lilith In-Reply-To: <351C8491.2A54E56C@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > And I can't for the life of me understand what is wrong with asking someone to > take a wad of gum out of their mouth when they speak. If it had been me I would > have rather swallowed the gum than ask a question while chomping away on it. And > it seems to me that he asked rather nicely, even offering his _own_ hand for the > young woman in question to deposit the gum into. Quite frankly, that is going > beyond the call of duty for one's fans. And I am sorry if the young woman was > embarrassed, but then maybe she should have been. > I don't know that it matters, but as the only one involved in this conversation who was there I can testify to the fact that a) he didn't ask nicely, b) it wasn't a young woman--it was a 48 year old English teacher and c) it was not a wad of gum but a rather small piece of Dentine made necessary by the fact that she'd had the pizza with green pepper for lunch immediately before the talk (I told her to take the tuna fish sandwich, but she just wouldn't listen, nope.) :^) This is a really silly argument. Can we go back to something worthwhile? Mike (husband of the gum perp) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:05:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) Comments: To: Lilith In-Reply-To: <351C8491.2A54E56C@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > In a "formal elementary school class room" no one would have been chewing gum. > As someone who has spent a lot of time in elementary classroom I'm afraid I have to tell you--theory ain't practice. :^)ex Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:52:19 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: to puke or not to puke (Re: sf and real life) In-Reply-To: <199803271742.TAA24212@mail.global.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Anthea wrote: > On 26 Mar 98 at 12:50, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > > .......-but that isn't to say that the actual beliefs of the > > author cannot be judged or at least approximated using a story as > > evidence. > > No one can possibly 'approximate' an author's actual beliefs from a > single story or small group of stories. Even skilled researchers > may spend years studying the life and entire corpus of a writer > without being able to reach unassailable conclusions on his beliefs. Hey, I have no desire to engage in any flaming, but I have to respectfully disagree with just about everything you say. Of course you can approximate what an author really thinks to varying degrees of accuracy, depending on how much of the author's work you've read, how acute your own literary sensibilities are, and how much experience you've had with literary analysis. Based on one story, your approximation will of necessity be very crude and possibly inaccurate. Based on a knowledge of the majority of a writer's published work, your approximation will probably be pretty accurate. I ask you to take notice of my use of the word "approximate." My purpose in using that word was to make it clear that I was specifically not claiming any ability to make "unassailable conclusions on his beliefs." If you want to argue with me, please argue with what I'm actually saying. It is sometimes fashionable to claim that all evaluation of authorial intent is subjective, but I have to admit that I think that's simply nonsense left over from the New Criticism of the 1950s, although today, of course, it's sometimes dressed up in what is at this point last year's trendy deconstructionism. > > The best a reader can do is to 'approximate' the image the author > intended to convey. I say 'approximate' because a reader with strong > views will certainly consciously or unconsciously distort any image - > however carefully contructed. Last semester, I read analyses by > three of my students of Ellison's treatment of the female character > in another story ('I have no mouth...'); the analyses reflected the > individual students' personal, social and political beliefs so > closely that it was difficult to believe that they were describing > the same author. There is some truth to this--I'm reminded of my own student who insisted that Dostoyevski's "The Grand Inquisitor" was anti-Christian because Dostoyevski was, after all a Russian and therefore a Communist--but you go too far. Can you truly believe that if I read The Female Man and infer from it that Joanna Russ is not merely intending to convey a feminist theme, but is herself a feminist, my conclusions are inaccurate? > > > When Ellison has the Boy choose his Dog over the girl, he's knows exactly > > what he's doing and his purpose, in part, is to shock his audience, but he > > can only do this and get away with it within the context of his day... > > One must also judge a story in the context of the time it was > published (difficult though it is for me to say anything nice about > post-modernism). You're judging the story from a revisionist > perspective, one that didn't exist when the story was written. This > is dangerous because it leads one to impute discreditable motives > where none exists. I like the story _as a story_ because I don't take > it as a literal or even allegorical suggestion that Ellison thinks > that my place is in his dog's dinner bowl! In my above paragraph I am simultaneously judging the story within the context of its own day and the present day. I remember the story clearly from my own reading as a teenager. I too liked it enormously at the time (and still do with some reservations). I'm fully aware that the story's original readers would not have been aware of the sexism inherent in their world view and can not be held accountable for not sharing today's attitudes towards sexism. This however, does not change the fact that sexist attitudes were present at the time the story was written and are in fact present in the story. > > that he and his (at the time) mostly young, mostly male audience > > shared about women and relationships. > > That would have been true in the 50s, but it certainly wasn't true of > the mid-60s or early 70s. Look, for example, at one of the several > series of annual sf anthologies (for example 'Best SF stories of > ...). The changes in story mix from the late 50s clearly demonstrate > a growing female audience; by the early 70s the progress to our > present state was largely complete. Again examine the change in > content and style of stories which won the major sf prizes over the > same period; if you allow for the inevitable lag, the same picture > emerges. The women of the 50s, 60s and 70s were not the passive > creatures you seem to imagine. > I never in any way implied that the women of the 50's, 60's, and 70's were passive creatures or that I imagined them to be passive creatures for that matter. Having grown up in an environment where virtually every woman I knew (including my mother) was a college graduate working in a professional level job, it would never have occured to me at the time. I have no idea where you got that idea, certainly not from anything I wrote. Again, if you're going to argue with me, argue with what I've said. Don't set up strawpersonages. It is, however, my strong impression, and no I can't give you a citation, although I expect I could find one, that even as late as 1969, the large majority of sf readers were relatively young and male. In any case the science fiction fan community of the mid to late 60's and early 70's was still heavily young and male. That I can testify to first hand. Yes, increasing numbers of women writers were entering the field, and yes, there were increasing numbers of women readers and fans entering the field as well. Since science fiction and sf fandom were at the center of my personal universe back then I was reading those writers at the time and dating the female fans. I can still remember the surprise and pleasure of meeting women who shared my reading interests. Another point, the fact that there was indeed some feminist sf being published in the 60s and early 70s and that it was beginning to win awards hardly has any bearing on the fact that the majority of men and indeed the majority of male sf fans of that period still held sexist attitudes. Progress is hardly uniform. The SF universe was indeed changing, but it didn't happen all at once and it was often enormously painful. I remember panels on feminism and SF at SF conventions in the late 60s and early 70s that were pretty much destroyed by angry male voices. I remember trying to teach the first feminist sf anthology (which I think may have been co-edited by our own Vonda McIntyre) sometime in the early70s and encountering enormous hostility from the mostly male class. I remember hearing Joanna Russ giving a speech somewhere, probably an SF conference in Chicago in the early 70s, and being both cheered and booed. Heck I remember some fairly angry letters to the editor and a few resignations from the Science Fiction Research Association as late as 1988 when the organization gave its Pilgrim Award for outstanding contributions to literary criticism to Russ. This sort of criticism occurred again as recently as last year when the SFRA gave its Pilgrim Award to feminist critic Marlene Barr. > The real successes of the women's movement to date have been won > quietly by the efforts of millions of women moving out - without > fanfare or self-serving publicity - into the real world. I find it > insulting when every few years, the women's movement suffers > from a new crop of self-appointed messiahs who decry the hard-won > victories our mothers and grandmothers achieved. > I'm not sure exactly how this refers to anything I've written. I've certainly never decried any of my mother's or my grandmothers' achievements. Both my grandmothers were hardworking penniless immigrants from Poland who were the primary forces behind successful family businesses. Mom, by the way was (and at 75 still is) a political and animal rights activist and supposedly one of the first one hundred American women to graduate with a physics degree. True fact. :^) Mike Levy > ----------------------------------------- > gaudit@global.co.za > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:58:54 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: Re: Story about guns (was:Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-27 15:46:39 EST, E.F.James@READING.AC.UK writes: > Remember that Ray Bradbury story, where a man from a future leaves a > loaded pistol in the bed of the young child of the man who has invented > some ghastly super-weapon and is about to unleash it on the world. "Who in > their right minds would give a loaded gun to a child?", or words to that > effect, was the punchline, coming from the father. Answer, I suppose: > someone from Arkansas... My memory is notoriously spotty, but that's not how I remember the story. I remember it as follows: A man drops in unexpectantly at the home of another man. He is there to try to talk the other into not unleashing a superweapon on the world. The first man doesn't agree. While they talk, noises come from another room. The source of the noises turns out to be the man's adult son, who is developmentally disabled. The visitor goes into the son's room (to say good night?) and then leaves. When the father goes in to check on his son, he finds the visitor has left a loaded gun. The last line, as I remember it, is: "Who would put a loaded gun in the hands of an idiot?" This is a vastly different thing from putting a loaded gun in the hands of a child. It seems to be saying that since we're all idiots at times -- particularly when we get angry or hate -- guns and weapons in general aren't that great an idea. Also was the story written by Bradbury? On the one hand, it does sound like him, OTOH I keep thinking it was someone else. (The name Fredric Brown keeps bobbing up in the cesspool of my brain when I think of this story, but my memory is so spotty I'm not even sure Brown was an sf writer.) Damon Knight almost sounds right, too. Anny Middon AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:15:27 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: such a tease ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just thought I'd let folks know I have in my hot little hands a review copy of _What Are We Fighting For? Sex, Race, Class and the Future of Feminism_, Joanna Russ's new analysis of feminist theory. Will be reading it soon -- as soon as I finish _Six Moon Dance_, the new Sheri Tepper. BTW, although I think the Russ was originally announced for last fall, I now show a pub date of April 27. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:25:39 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anita Easton Subject: Re: BDG Ammonite In-Reply-To: Lurima's message of "Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:09:45 EST" Lurima writes: > In a message dated 98-03-18 20:14:03 EST, you write: > << Is the change brought about by the virus so > fundamental that they become something-other-than-human? > >> > I'm sure that plenty people on Earth would say so. The Other is often > perceived as non-human. Some inhabitants of our planet consider women non- > human, and some consider blacks non-human. I don't think we should > automatically assume that a change or an enhancement makes a person non- > human--but that's often the first thought that the unchanged populace thinks. > Much SF deals with this. I think of "Beggars in Spain," for example. I guess thinking of them as non-human would make it easier for the Company to justify dstroyign the society if and when they come back. I was wondering about whether the women of GP were not human because I wonder if gender is a necessary part of humanity. I recently read "Husbands" by Lisa Tuttle (in _Memories of the Body_), in which children in a society from which men have vanished start to create a gender distinction. Is gender or some kind of similar social division so inherent in us as to be a defining characteristic of humanity? In Lisa Tuttle's story the lack of biologically determined social gender distinction is lost, but is replaced by a purely social distinction. (This reminded me a little of the butch/femme distinction that was so popular in lesbian communities for a time) In _Ammonite_ no social gender distinction is made, is this because the distinction has not yet developed (after all, they have only had 5 years on GP)? Or will it never develop? I've been specifically avoiding talking about gender being a bipolar distinction, because there are societies which have more than two genders, but these are far from the norm (aren't they?). What does this mean? *wondering* Anita ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison sexist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Harlan Ellison's supposed lack of feminist credentials: > he participated in the civil rights march > on Montgomery, had his arm broken by a cop in the Century City riots, > almost became one of the Chicago Seven, refused to pay his federal taxes > for several years in protest of the Vietnam War (at the urging of Thomas > Pynchon), and attended a WorldCon as Honored Guest in Arizona in a tent > with his own food from home so he wouldn't spend a cent in a state that > had refused to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment? > Got this off of a Usenet posting. Lilith -- ************* http://www.concentric.net/~Ligeia/ * The Web * http://members.tripod.com/~othiym/ * Universe * http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2527/ ************* http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5057/