Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9804A" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:13:27 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: Gum respect (was:harlan: a jerk or not a jerk?) Comments: To: donna simone In-Reply-To: <001001bd5c90$3d87d500$06ae2499@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, donna simone wrote: > I believe we are all speaking on opposite sides of the track. I do not for > a minute debate that behaviors that are off-putting cause a listener to not > listen: gum-chewing, eating with one's mouth open, etc. However, it is in > the eye of the beholder and clearly we make different choices about how to > respond. Mostly according to how we were raised. These are issues of > "politeness". What I was reacting to was Mr Ellison manipulation of the > inherent power of being "The Speaker" to intentionally humiliate another > prefectly reasonable human being. And when everyone jumped in defending the > request to not chew gum. I was astonished. The issue for me is about using > one's acquired powers or stature to put someone else down, especially on the > pretext of asking someone to be polite. That is an abuse of power. Ellison > was trying to humiliate the woman. That is how it was received by the > observers and he could not have done it without using the trivia of a > politeness standard. > > I would have to say G that you have no idea of what my original point was > yourself. If you want to sling hash that is... > > Can we all stop this gum thing and get back to books now? > > donna > But Donna, you put it so clearly, it's hard not to get in at least a cheer, if not one last word. On the last word front, as an ex-pat Southerner in the Northwest U.S., I was astounded to hear a woman discussing in an elevator, at 5:00 pm, no less, her eighth month of pregnancy. Where I came from, if this were not a breech of decorum, it would have been an intentional invitation for all listeners to join in the discussion. I had been here long enough. though, to realize she intended this very public discussion to be treated as private. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:16:02 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ines Lassnig Organization: University of Klagenfurt, Austria Subject: madness and utopia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I haven't been following on the chewing gum debate, which I honestly don't consider very relevant in a literary analysis or talk (but I did find it very amusing at times to observe the clash of cultures from an outside position, i.e. from the AUstrian culture), and as I don't want to contribute any thoughts on the kid-murderers in Arkansas, which is equally irrelevant here, I'd like to ask the list for something completely different: I'm new to this genre, I've only read a couple of SF books, so I would be very grateful for suggestions from your side on the following: Does anybody know, apart from Marge Piercy's "Woman on the Edge of Time", about a feminist (or at least written by a woman) SF novel that deals with madness ("female" madness) and utopia or dystopia (as a form of escapism)? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:19:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: madness and utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I'm new to this genre, I've only read a couple of SF books, so I would > be very grateful for suggestions from your side on the following: > Does anybody know, apart from Marge Piercy's "Woman on the Edge of > Time", about a feminist (or at least written by a woman) SF novel that > deals with madness ("female" madness) and utopia or dystopia (as a > form > of escapism)? > I'm not sure this would count as SF but Charlotte Perkins Gillman's _Yellow Wallpaper_ is about madness/escape etc. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:07:57 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: madness and utopia >be very grateful for suggestions from your side on the following: >Does anybody know, apart from Marge Piercy's "Woman on the Edge of >Time", about a feminist (or at least written by a woman) SF novel that >deals with madness ("female" madness) and utopia or dystopia (as a form >of escapism)? Not exactly utopia, but there's a short story by Eleanor Arnason, 'The War Lord of Saturn's Moons' about a woman in a slightly future, slightly dystopian society, who 'escapes' by writing a space-opera adventure under that title. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:09:52 -0800 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: madness and utopia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit about a feminist (or at least written by a woman) SF novel that > >deals with madness ("female" madness) and utopia or dystopia (as a form > >of escapism)? > The most straightforward reading of Tiptree's "Your Faces O My Sisters! Your Faces Filled of Light!" fits the description (though it's a short story, not a novel). A reprint of it can be found in _Her Smoke Rose Up Forever_ (Arkham House, 1990). Timmi Duchamp http://www.halcyon.com/ltimmel/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:37:51 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Remco de Zwart Subject: How to find "The Screwfly Solution" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm interested in reading "The Screwfly Solution" but have no idea how to find it. Does it exist in a anthology/collection? Thanks, Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:52:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elisa Kay Sparks Subject: Re: How to find "The Screwfly Solution" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Sharon: "Screwfly Solution" was originally published (as Raccoona Sheldon)in ANALOG in June 1977 and was collected in STAR SONGS OF AN OLD PRIMATE and in the posthumous collection HER SMOKE ROSE UP FOREVER. It is also available in A Treasury of American Horror Stories, ed. Frank D. McSherry, Jr., Charles G. Waugh & Martin H. Greenberg, Bonanza/Crown Books, 1985. I have a listing of much of Tiptree's fiction, including original date of publication and where stories are collected on a Tiptree page at: http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/tiptree1.html Whenever I am looking for a short story, I go to The Locus Index to Science Fiction (1984-1997) by Charles N. Brown & William G. Contento, which has wonderfully complete info on original and subsequent publication of SF stories and books. It's at: http://www.sff.net/locus/0start.html Elisa Sparks ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Dr. Elisa Kay Sparks e-mail: sparks@hubcap.clemson.edu Department of English Office phone: (864) 656-5410 Strode Tower FAX: (864)656-1345 Clemson University Clemson, SC 29634-1503 http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:16:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: How to find "The Screwfly Solution" In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980403105236.006b4b14@hubcap.clemson.edu> from "Elisa Kay Sparks" at Apr 3, 98 10:52:37 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sharon, You can also find "The Screwfly Solution" in Tom Shippey's *Oxford Book of Science Fiction Stories* (Oxford UP, 1992). Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * "He ran," the unicorn said. "You must never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention." - Peter S. Beagle, _The Last Unicorn_, 1968 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:46:55 -0400 Reply-To: blue47@diespammersdie.uky.campus.mci.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Blue Subject: not getting messages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't received a message since Michael M. Levy's oh so eloquent apology for bringing up both Harlan Ellison and gum. Can you all h*lp me? -- I wonder how many future Newtons and Einsteins, or brilliant technicians and engineers and communications specialists died of malnutrition today? -Julieanne Le Comte --- remove "diespammersdie" to reply Blue 47/Annabel Leigh/Jhoto/RB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:58:15 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: dueling quotes? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Intercepted at: 30/03/98 17:13:30 GMT. >From Maryelizabeth Hart . > Catweasel stated: > >Somebody, possibly John Campbell, once said of Harlan Ellison "He has > >the heart of a little boy... pickled in alcohol on his desk." > > But I believe it to be Robert Bloch who said it of himself, and the end > phrase was "in a jar on my desk." > > Anyone able to reference this? I haven't been able to confirm, but your assertion does sound right. I blame the CRAFT disease, but it has been 20+ years since I read the quote. On reflection I seem to recall an editor saying of the author "He say he has..." That the author in question might have been Robert Bloch does seem more likely. Still can't reamer who the editor was, though. I do apologise for the inaccuracy, but I shall not bother promising that it won't happen again. I fancy myself a wit, and I reckon I am probably at least half right. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:19:30 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: _Dreamsnake_ Discussion Begins Today! :) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, To start the discussion: There was some discussion whether or not _Ammonite_ was science fiction or fantasy because of the lack of "technology" on Jeep. (Technology is in quotes because we are not all agreed on the definition). Along the same lines, is _Dreamsnake_ science fiction or fantasy? What is the "technology" presented? What makes this book sci-fi or fantasy? I am looking forward to discussion of this book. :D Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:11:05 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG: Dreamsnake discussion begins today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know I really enjoyed re-reading Dreamsnake recently, and I hope you did as well. Even better if this was the first time you read it! Today is the first day for discussion. Lindy will be opening it up with a first posting tonight, but if you've been having trouble restraining yourself you don't have to wait for the official discussion leader opening -- go for it! Of course, Dreamsnake discussion is not meant to monopolize the FSF list - feel free to post messages about any FSF-related topic, not just about Dreamsnake. Some policy suggestions before we get into it: The author of this month's book, Vonda McIntyre, is a member of our little community. It worked out well in the Ammonite discussion last month, I think, for the discussion to proceed as if the author were not immediately reading each posting. Let's avoid getting her directly involved in the discussion until things wind down. And regardless of whether the author is present or not, please avoid vague or inappropriate criticisms or personal attacks -- not that we saw any in the last discussion, but it never hurts to say that up front. Another obvious thing that always needs restating: don't always copy the whole message you're responding to - find a pair of scissors and cut out the parts we don't all need to re-read. Finally, don't be afraid to offer opinions or perspectives that differ from the prevailing voice of the discussion, or that are critical of the book. Critical opinions are a great stimulant to discussion and remind us of how many different experiences readers can bring to a book, as we saw last month (many thanks, Blue). Remember to provide examples, and explain why you feel that way about what you read. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:01:42 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: BDG: _Dreamsnake_: sci-fi, spec. fiction, or fantasy? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Now that I'm home from work, thought I'd answer my own questions. :D >Along the same lines, is _Dreamsnake_ science fiction or fantasy? I received a couple of messages which suggested that it would have been a good idea to have included "speculative" or "alternative" fiction as a choice in my original question. Fair enough. I do prefer at least three choices in most things, myself. Even with the choice of speculative fiction, I see _Dreamsnake_ as science fiction. > What is the "technology" presented? There is a great deal of science and technology inherent in what Snake does as a healer, or did during her training. Manipulation of dreamsnake DNA, manipulation of her pony Swift's DNA, the research necessary to learn what chemicals to feed the cobras and rattlesnakes to obtain the intended effect. The dreamsnakes came from a different world, as well as the flora (and fauna) in the broken dome. There were others. . . (I'm *really* curious about the history of these domes, btw). Evidence of inter-planetary trade occurs with the unbreakable substance used to create the rings around Larril's achilles tendons so that she could not hide her status as a bonded human. > What makes this book sci-fi or fantasy? Sci-fi--Despite the cataclysm previous to the time period covered in this story, humanity has maintained and evolved sophisticated healing arts using available materials/creatures. This is just my take on _Dreamsnake_. I tend toward a very broad definition for science fiction, but I don't feel I have to stretch it to encompass this story. This is a great book. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:12:56 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erica J Kline Subject: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My personal definition has been that a work is Fantasy if it includes Magic of some kind, or if it takes place in an alternate universe in which Magic works. I'm not sure this is a very good definition anymore, so many works seems to have some sort of Magic realism in them (I think, I'm not so sure about the definition of Magic Realism either). And, being an Athiest with no belief whatsoever in the supernatural, I'd have to put any story in which Psi powers, ghosts, spirits, etc... figure into the Fantasy category. I'm afraid I'm rather literal-minded, sorry. Erica ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:01:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD623E.6072C2B0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD623E.6072C2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm...I think my definition of Science Fiction (as opposed to Fantasy) = sounds similar to yours at first - I like your first sentence - but is = probably even more broad. I've never considered PSI to be "fantasy" or = magic or "supernatural", especially not after reading Julian May's = books; PSI (to me) is just enhanced use of the brains we all use so = little of. Ghosts and spirits are on the edge, and it would depend on = how it was presented; if there ended up being some "scientific" = explanation for them, then it could still be SF, but usually ghosts mean = fantasy or even horror, to me. Any sufficiently advanced technology is = indistinguishable from magic, of course; it just depends on what you = consider to be "sufficiently advanced". :) -Sandy slc@teleport.com -----Original Message----- From: Erica J Kline [SMTP:ejkline@BECKMAN.COM] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 3:13 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fantasy vs Science Fiction My personal definition has been that a work is Fantasy if it includes = Magic of some kind, or if it takes place in an alternate universe in which = Magic works. I'm not sure this is a very good definition anymore, so many = works seems to have some sort of Magic realism in them (I think, I'm not so = sure about the definition of Magic Realism either). And, being an Athiest = with no belief whatsoever in the supernatural, I'd have to put any story in which Psi powers, ghosts, spirits, etc... figure into the Fantasy = category. I'm afraid I'm rather literal-minded, sorry. 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(Gee, that was a long sentence). For instance, if a person builds a time machine and travels to the 22nd century, it's science fiction. If instead, she gets knocked over the head by a falling tree and suddenly ends up in the 22nd century, that's fantasy. Of course, it's important that in the former case, significant amount of time is spent on explanation of the basic principles the time machine operates on, the nature of the time-space continium, and/or anything else related to science. The latter might include: - the scientist's problems with jealous colleagues; - his/her alienation from the materialistic society; - the role of science and technology in the destiny of the world; - the scientist's personal troubles: unhappy love life (getting dumped by an unappreciative bimbo -- for a male; loneliness/ugliness plus an abusive childhood as a reason to go into science -- for a female). In other words, science fiction usually tries to explore some deep philosophical issues (the fate of a genius or and ecological crisis) by talking about them directly and placing them in the center of the story. Meanwhile fantasy is more action-based, and if there are any deep issues, they are usually presented more subtly and allow for more different interpretations. But honestly, I think that the distinction between the two concepts is rather superficial and has to do more with the naming conventions than with the matter behind them. At least, that's what I think. Marina, in whose native language there are no separate terms for fantasy and science fiction. "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:57:29 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-07 21:25:12 EDT, you write: << But honestly, I think that the distinction between the two concepts is rather superficial and has to do more with the naming conventions than with the matter behind them. Marketing categories. That's what they are. It's so the booksellers know which shelves to put the books on. Lurima ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:38:51 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anabahebic Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-07 22:58:38 EDT << But honestly, I think that the distinction between the two concepts is rather superficial and has to do more with the naming conventions than with the matter behind them. >> I seriously think it is more than just a difference in naming conventions. There is a difference in the "spirit" of the writing, it is the "tech" end of SF and the construction of the reality that distinguishes it from Fantasy. If the difference is superficial why would there be "crossover" types of writing?.... If the difference is superficial why is SF easily discernable from Fantasy and Fantasy from SF? I hope it is more than the cover art or a marketing decision. My rule of thumb is very simple, swords sorcerers, sorceress's, kingdoms, magic spells, and maps of new worlds give me the clue that it is Fantasy. J