Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9804B" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:57:47 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: BDG - Dreamsnake's sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the things I found interesting about Dreamsnake was the cultural assumptions about sexuality which were expressed in the different societies. I found Snake and Melissa's characters completely convincing, both very strong people despite very difficult and painful experiences. I liked the complete equivalence between same sex and heterosex relationships in Mountainside, in Jesse's partnership and in other mountain communities. I also liked the way sex was something pleasant and companionable - and not shameful - which you could do with a stranger or a friend without having to be committed for life. As well, a range of longterm partnerships were also okay. I found the idea of biolfeedback control of fertility wonderful - there goes one of women's major equality problems at one stroke. It made the sexual equality more believable. I found the stigmatising of Gabriel because he couldn't do that quite interesting. If he had such a bad teacher, I would have expected Mountainside to have quite a few more people who couldn't do it, but that's a quibble. I found, however, the disgust at the abuse of Melissa in the scene with the mayor did not gel with the very recent banning of bonding or slavery. I can't believe that the two could co-exist. If you have only recently banned slavery, then it has been acceptable up until recently to treat people as commodities and objects, so that would automatically maintain inequalities in sexuality. I also found the mayor's question to Melissa about whether she had wanted the stable owner's sexual abuse uncomfortable. It assumed that someone who looked 10 could "consent" and "choose" to be sexual with an adult. Those concepts have no meaning in an interaction of such unequal power. However, I think this book was written before a lot of the detailed research on child sexual abuse was done, so this is not a major criticism. There were lots of intriguing elements left unexplored - the origin of the domes, the kind of alients the city was interacting with, the politics in the city, the technology of the healers. I found the use of snakes for healing fascinating - alien (to me at least) and believable. However, enough already. Jenny R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:43:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ivison Douglas Subject: Canadian Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, sfuf@csd.uwm.edu, iafa-l@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu, canlit-l@infoserv.nlc-bnc.ca, e-grad@nwe.ufl.edu, spoon-announcements@jefferson.village.virginia.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII CALL FOR CONTRIBUTORS (second call) for a volume of the Dictionary of Literary Biography on CANADIAN SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY WRITERS. I am still looking for contributors to write entries on the following writers: Jean-Pierre April*Alain Bergeron*Joel Champetier*Michael G. Coney* Monique Corriveau*Dave Duncan*Agnes Guitard*Monica Hughes *Crawford Kilian*Donald Kingsbury*Laurence Manning*Suzanne Martel *Yves Menard*Brian Moore*Francine Pelletier*Charles Saunders* Jean-Francois Somain/Somcynsky*Jean-Louis Trudel*Andrew Weiner Entries range in length from 3000 to 8000 words, and include bibliographical information, and biographical/critical discussion of the author's life and work. Contributors receive a copy of the book and a small honorarium. The deadline for submission of entries is approximately September 1, 1998. The Dictionary of Literary Biography, published by Gale Research is a series of reference volumes designed as a resource for teachers and students of literature. It is carried by most university and reference libraries. If you are interested in participating in this project, or in finding out more about it, please contact me: Douglas Ivison Departement d'etudes anglaises Universite de Montreal C.P. 6128, succ. Centre-ville Montreal (Quebec) H3C 3J7 CANADA phone: (514) 278-1126 fax: (514) 343-6443 email: ivisond@magellan.umontreal.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:06:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are, of course, lots of theoretical books written on what differentiates SF, fantasy, and other fictional genres. Distinctions I've found helpful are those by Darko Suvin on the one hand, who offers the concept of "cognition" and "novum" as distinguishing characteristics for SF, and Todorov on the other, for the realm of the fantastic. Suvin offers "cognition" as -- though I paraphrase and reshape -- the presence of a Western (scientific) cause-and-effect type thinking process present within (either) the composition of the textual world (i.e. the physical world of the story), and/or within the way the characters comport themselves vis-a-vis their world. The presence of cognition does not, therefore, imply scientific necessity or plausibility, but more a sense of logical, internal consistency. The "novum" is simply the "new thing"--that which distinguishes SF from mundane fiction. It does have to be 'significantly' new, however--most James Bond gadgets, no matter how many of them there are, don't qualify a novel as SF just on that basis. The virus on Jeep in Griffith's novel is a good example of a novum: this completely changes the society of that planet. The primary theorist on the fantastic is Tzvetan Todorov. For him, the fantastic is the moment precisely at which the reader hovers on the point of indecision as to the "reality" of an event. Was it real, or was it spirit-o-rex? That is the question... I'm not as familiar with the SFantastic on a theoretical basis, however. Perhaps someone can point me in the right direction? It seems that most fantasy takes its basis in legend, Arthurian or otherwise, and incorporates some form of causality that is not directly attributable to the realm of what this world calls physics (whether invented, extrapolated, or not). Magical realism, as far as I can tell, involves the blending of distinctly hispanic cultures with Indian cultures on the same level of belief. There. All the problems of the world solved and resolved in one fell swoop. Onto the next world. ;) Heather (still gotta reread Dreamsnake, oh boy) ^ Output of your job hmaclean: > Reality is only a question of language. Unknown command - "REALITY". Try HELP. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:19:35 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-07 22:58:38 EDT, Lurima writes: << Marketing categories. That's what they are. It's so the booksellers know which shelves to put the books on. >> There's probably some truth to that, but many bookstores are now shelving the two categories in the same section anyway. Our local Barnes & Noble superstore does so. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:11:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD62EF.E83EAF90" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD62EF.E83EAF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And Powell's, one of the coolest bookstores anywhere (one of the many = benfits of living in Portland), now shelves SF, Fanatasy AND = Horror/Occult all in the same section. They make up for this by being = cool enough to shelve new and used books together, and by sorting books = by series, rather than strictly by title (to the extent that the latest = Ship Who Sang book, which isn't even written by McCaffrey, is shelved in = with the rest of the McCaffreys). :) -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: WaterLuv [SMTP:WaterLuv@AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 12:20 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Fantasy vs Science Fiction In a message dated 98-04-07 22:58:38 EDT, Lurima writes: << Marketing categories. That's what they are. It's so the booksellers = know which shelves to put the books on. >> There's probably some truth to that, but many bookstores are now = shelving the two categories in the same section anyway. Our local Barnes & Noble = superstore does so. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: BDG - Dreamsnake's sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD62F1.C466E540" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD62F1.C466E540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did anyone else notice that Merideth (the person who came and found = Snake and asked her to help save her partner Jesse, early in the book) = is completely genderless? =20 I didn't. I was reading the Tiptree website (http://www.sf3.org/tiptree, in case = anybody doesn't know where it is), and in the short list for the = retrospective award are some comments that Ursula K. LeGuin made about = Dreamsnake. She had noticed it. I had to go back and re-read those = chapters, and, sure enough, I couldn't find even one pronoun associated = with Merideth (though it's possible I missed one; I was re-reading late = last night). Because the name has female connotations in my mind (I = know several female Merideths, and no male ones), I read the book = assuming that Merideth was female, but the way it's written, that = doesn't have to be the case. There's a little bit of convolution = noticable when you know what you're looking for, but it's very well-done = - I'd read the book twice and never noticed. It makes me wonder, if = that character had a name that I don't have a gender-association with = already, would I have just assigned a gender, or would it have made me = notice the lack of pronouns? So, am I the only one, or is this news to other people, too? Or is = Ursula off-base, and I just didn't find the defining pronoun? -Sandy slc@teleport.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:42:06 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: [FSFFU] BDG: Dreamsnake I have no problem with defining this as science-fiction--all the phenomena are plausible within this framework, just because something is 'low-tech' or 'small is beautiful' tech doesn't make it 'not science'--but the actual structure of the narrative is, of course, that standard fantasy trope of The Quest. Having said that, it's a meaningful quest (fitting into a pattern of quest as spiritual metaphor) which brings about personal gains as well as a practical pay-off, rather than one of those tedious journeys in search of the Cricket Bat of Doom in order to win the Final Good Versus Evil Test Match... of which there are far too many. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:43:54 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction Content-Type: text/plain >Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:24:50 -0500 >From: Marina >Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction > >In my opinion, the difference is only in that science fiction writers >attempt to give a "scientific"-looking explanation to the events >depicted, and pay more attention to technical details, while fantasy >authors do not bother. (Gee, that was a long sentence). > >For instance, if a person builds a time machine and travels to the 22nd century, it's science fiction. If instead, she gets knocked over the head by a falling tree and suddenly ends up in the 22nd century, that's fantasy. I have to agree with Marina -- Orson Scott Card has a story in his "How to write SF" book about trying to sell a story about psi powers and having it rejected as fantasy -- looking back, he realized that even though it was a rural colonial planet with psionic inhabitants, the *editors* read it and saw characters in plain clothes travelling through forests and using magic. Really, (IIRC) there was no big division made between fantasy and SF until the huge success of _Lord of the Rings_ and its imitators made it worthwhile to market and package fantasy as such. There are lots of writers that work successfully in the interstices between the two genres; Michael Swanwick comes to mind. > >Of course, it's important that in the former case, significant amount of >time is spent on explanation of the basic principles the time machine >operates on, the nature of the time-space continium, and/or anything else >related to science. The latter might include: > - the scientist's problems with jealous colleagues; > - his/her alienation from the materialistic society; > - the role of science and technology in the destiny of the world; > - the scientist's personal troubles: unhappy love life (getting >dumped by an unappreciative bimbo -- for a male; loneliness/ugliness plus an abusive childhood as a reason to go into science -- for a female). > >In other words, science fiction usually tries to explore some deep >philosophical issues (the fate of a genius or and ecological crisis) by >talking about them directly and placing them in the center of the story. >Meanwhile fantasy is more action-based, and if there are any deep issues, they are usually presented more subtly and allow for more different interpretations. Are you thinking of a specific work here, or just drawing on the inexhaustible font of cliches that every SF reader has within them? Dan Krashin P.S. *PLEASE* don't send MIME messages to this list; it's like fingernails on a blackboard to get three pages of alphanumeric gibberish. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:44 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: [FSFFU] BDG: Dreamsnake (Science, Quest, Hero?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lesley, I see what you mean about the combination of Science within the frame of a Quest narrative. I agree that this quest is a meaningful one. Snake finds what she lost, in abundance, as well as the information necessary to perpetuate the "wealth" of dreamsnakes. She also learned that she and her family of healers had been disabled by their inability to imagine how these extraterrestrial creatures were different from terrestrial ones. That's the kind of lesson which fundamentally changes the way one views life and solves problems Does the successful completion of this quest make her a hero? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:25:23 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The way I distinguish between Fantasy and Science Fiction for myself is to look at whether there is anything included in the novel that's 'alien' or 'other', from outside the world of the book. For example, to me, McCaffery's Dragon books are science fiction because the people of Pern are descended from Earth stock and use science and technology developed from Earth tech - and as readers we are made aware of that. On the other hand, to use a really easy example :), Tolkien's trilogy is fantasy because there is no hint of anything being from a world other than Middle Earth. Just as a side note, including that element of 'the outsider' can be very useful when writing what might otherwise be a fantasy-oriented book (as I've found to my chagrin in struggling to write a fantasy). Having an alien character who is able to compare the things they see to their own world makes describing the world one has created much easier! I don't know if I've explained it very well, but that's my personal definition. :) Monica ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:46:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:25 PM 4/8/98 +0100, you wrote: > The way I distinguish between Fantasy and Science Fiction for >myself is to look at whether there is anything included in the novel that's >'alien' or 'other', from outside the world of the book. For example, to >me, McCaffery's Dragon books are science fiction because the people of Pern >are descended from Earth stock and use science and technology developed >from Earth tech - and as readers we are made aware of that. On the other >hand, to use a really easy example :), Tolkien's trilogy is fantasy because >there is no hint of anything being from a world other than Middle Earth. > This explanation runs very quickly into problems. Would you deny that Atwood's Handmaiden's Tale is SF? Or _The Difference Engine_? Does that mean WE are SF? I mean, look, we go to the moon all the time... Heather ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sandy Candioglos wrote: > > Did anyone else notice that Merideth (the person who came and found > Snake and asked her to help save her partner Jesse, early in the book) > is completely genderless? You aren't off-track. Good catch. :) The chapters including this character are written so smoothly that I noticed there were no gender identifying pronouns associated with Merideth/Merry. This served to enliven and refresh this section of the book for me. Gender is so important to the way I see a character, even when I don't want it to matter! Ms. McIntyre wrote to the list several months ago, responding to a question about this character's gender, I think. snip. > - I'd read the book twice and never noticed. It makes me wonder, if that character had a name that I don't have a gender-association with already, would I have just assigned a gender, or would it have made me notice the lack of pronouns? I have a gender association with "Meredith," which bled over into "Merideth." Also, I think that Merideth's nick name (Merry) associated itself with "Mary," or maybe it was the "y" ending that many adult women's nicknames have. (Or in my case, my real name). Like you, I don't know whether I'd have noticed that there were no identifying pronouns if I didn't have that association. I do know that I enjoyed this device because once I learned what Vonda did with Merideth, it expand my awareness about all characters I meet in stories. I consider it a lesson similar to Snake's realization about how her people did not look beyond what they knew in dealing with the dreamsnake reproduction: thinking only in pairs, and not in "triploid." Such an expansion in awareness affects one in every endeavor. Thanks for bringing up the topic. I'd love to hear about how the crafting of these chapters (regarding Merideth's gender) affected others readers. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:18:25 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I can't believe the distinction between SF and fantasy is a meaningless one because - hey - I love SF and I loathe fantasy. Hmm.. pretty subjective distinction. So here's my theory (ahem) An artist takes on a (perhaps arbitrary) discipline, and then by working within that discipline, is forced to create. Like the sonnet form, or a three-minute album track or whatever. For me SF has that discipline. Because fantasy lacks any structure, or stricture, it sems to me to be flabby. Because literally anything can happen, literally nothing matters. Alison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:31:55 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Quiltrek Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Alison writes: << For me SF has that discipline. Because fantasy lacks any structure, or stricture, it sems to me to be flabby. Because literally anything can happen, literally nothing matters.>> That would be a strong argument against fantasy, but most of the fantasy I've read doesn't fit the description of lacking "structure or stricture". Even when magic abounds, there are limits and failings to even the most spectacular spells. Fairy tales which frequently include magic, (although they are arguably fantasy) clearly place limits: only three wishes--use them wisely; the mermaid cannot go back to the ocean; Cinderella's ballgown turns to rags at midnight; Boots has three chances to win the princess. The structure of fantasy (very loosely--help me out here you knowledgeable literary minds) is the establishment of the magic and its limits, the use of the magic and the testing of those limits to resolve some crisis, then resolution. The magic is found to be vital, window dressing, or merely an assist to the human strengths/verities which really saved the day. There is internal logic, restraint, and a very clear structure. I HAVE read some dreadful fantasy where the hero at the last minute says, "Oh by the way, didn't I tell you this sword also will transport me across space and time so I can save the day?" But, I have read equally dreadful science fiction. Barbera ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:23:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980408175735.54e76856@pop.kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ::laugh:: Atwood's tale as science fiction? It's alternate history, which isn't properly science fiction at all... SPECULATIVE fiction, remember? There is a third category... There's what could have/be happening, what could never happen (magic, usually, although I'm sure that my Radical Faerie brothers would hate me for saying that), and what might happen in the future, with science mixed in but not definitely necessary. And two things about us: our life today WOULD be science fiction to people from the past. Even 30 years ago - very different. And two, we don't go to the moon all the time. it's annoying. i like the moon. >> >This explanation runs very quickly into problems. Would you deny that >Atwood's Handmaiden's Tale is SF? Or _The Difference Engine_? Does that >mean WE are SF? I mean, look, we go to the moon all the time... > >Heather > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you are so foolhardy as to ask a Whileawayan child to "be a good girl" and do something for you: "What does running other people's errands have to do with being a good girl? "Why can't you run your own errands? "Are you crippled?" -Joanna Russ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:45:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Fantasy vs Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:23 PM 4/8/98 -0400, you wrote: Joseph-- Lest you pounce too quickly: I gave my definition of SF (which yes, includes speculative as well as science fiction) last night. Atwood's _Tale_ meets the criterion of "cognition"--the presence of western cause-and-effect reasoning--and the novum (what was it, most women can't bear children, or something? I forget what the situation was exactly...). To me, this is science fiction. Now if you want to give me a different -theory- on what science fiction is, versus speculative fiction, perhaps we can have an interesting debate about it. >::laugh:: Atwood's tale as science fiction? It's alternate history, which >isn't properly science fiction at all... SPECULATIVE fiction, remember? >There is a third category... There's what could have/be happening, what >could never happen (magic, usually, although I'm sure that my Radical >Faerie brothers would hate me for saying that), and what might happen in >the future, with science mixed in but not definitely necessary. > > If you want to get into categories of tense, S. Delaney's work can be profitably used, I'm sure--though as I recall, his definitions only differentiate between mundane fiction and SF, not varieties of SF. Heather ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction FE>Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu [128.248.100.54] by WGSERVER.Silent-Running FE> id BBAKBNDJ ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:10:30 -0500 FE>Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) FE> by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA46856; FE> Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:50:47 -0500 FE>Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release FE> 1.8c) with spool id 108825 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 8 FE> Apr 1998 18:49:50 -0500 FE>Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) FE> piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA69188 for FE> ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:36:24 -0500 FE>Received: from alisonpage.demon.co.uk ([194.222.142.202]) by FE> post.mail.demon.net id aa2000228; 8 Apr 98 23:29 GMT FE>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal FE>X-Priority: 3 FE>X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 FE>Message-ID: <892078154.20228.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> FE>Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:18:25 +0100 FE>Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" FE> FE>Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" FE> FE>From: Alison Page FE>Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Fantasy vs. Science Fiction FE>To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU FE>Well, I can't believe the distinction between SF and fantasy is a FE>meaningless one because - hey - I love SF and I loathe fantasy. Hmm.. FE>pretty subjective distinction. FE>So here's my theory (ahem) FE>An artist takes on a (perhaps arbitrary) discipline, and then by working FE>within that discipline, is forced to create. Like the sonnet form, or a FE>three-minute album track or whatever. For me SF has that discipline. FE>Because fantasy lacks any structure, or stricture, it sems to me to be FE>flabby. Because literally anything can happen, literally nothing matters. FE>Alison Hiya, I think there is a misunderstanding about whether fantasy lacks structure...any genre, whether SF or Fantasy or whatever is what the author of a work makes it to be...it is the skill of the writer that makes the work lack a structure or lack elements relevant to the story the writer is attempting to present to the reader...to make a blanket statement whether an entire genre lacks something is short sighted as it blankets over the contribution the writer has in the work he or she is attempting to create. If the writer had not made the attempt there would not have been a product to critique. As to whether which I like more SF or Fantasy...I love a good story, whether it is a romance, a literary classic or an historical piece, if it moves me or gets my attention then it is good for me...I just discovered Pearl Buck, so am rather biased about good stories right at the moment grin. Jo Ann ----------------------------------------------------- Silent Running BBS, Riverside, California. 2 MajorMUD games, 3 LORD games and 2 Tradewars games WWW.Silent-Running.com / telent silent-running.com 909-343-2030 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: and the madness of crowds... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980408215656.469705aa@pop.kent.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Heather: Who's pouncing? I gave a perfectly clear definition of each of the three categories. Yeah, sure, Atwood's tale has western reasoning and novel ideas (it was the men were infertile, which isn't really new at all) the difference between her book and science fiction is that Atwood's tale is QUITE PROBABLE given today's society and technological level. We could easily be turned into a religious patriarchy, and modern weapons and/or diseases, plus the fact that if it happened the "winners" would be essentially losers genetically, could account for the sharp decrease in fertility. Heinlein has also noted this, although I don't think one could call him a feminist author at all... So: to repeat my own dictum, which probably serves nobody but myself, and which I nevertheless think is true: Speculative fiction is what COULD happen (given our current knowledge), science fiction is what MIGHT happen (extrapolation from current society), and fantasy is what WON'T happen (barring divine intervention.) Simplistic theory, but who needs complexity? Why look for different components to differentiate between content if the end result is different enough not to necessitate it? The trick isn't looking at the shadows, it's looking at what makes those shadows... Here's an interesting thought. I've said already that Atwood's book is "likely" given modern society. A science fiction book (take Star Trek, for one) contains elements of reality; many of the 'strange technologies' were based on scientific ideas and theory. But the science doesn't concern us; a novel of the future in which humanity reverted to agrarian flat-earthers would still be science fiction. The point is that it sticks to what could happen, and extrapolates from that: builds and builds until it gets to the point the author wants it to be at. Fantasy, on the other hand (and I like fantasy as well as science or speculative fiction) deals in the impossible. Impossible worlds in which magic works (although I have to admit I still believe in the proposal by Diane Duane in her Wizard novels that one can change the universe by speaking to it), in which animals *we have on this earth* can speak... Fantasy is the ultimate deviation from science fiction, because it sticks to what couldn't happen, and builds on that. Heather, is this what you were looking for in regards to theory? Im afraid I dont have your email of last night, so I can't compare. I'm trying consciously not to be too specific cause there will always be exceptions (what about psychokinetic powers and other things unproven, but not disproven?) >Lest you pounce too quickly: I gave my definition of SF (which yes, includes >speculative as well as science fiction) last night. Atwood's _Tale_ meets >the criterion of "cognition"--the presence of western cause-and-effect >reasoning--and the novum (what was it, most women can't bear children, or >something? I forget what the situation was exactly...). To me, this is >science fiction. >Now if you want to give me a different -theory- on what science fiction is, >versus speculative fiction, perhaps we can have an interesting debate about it. > >>::laugh:: Atwood's tale as science fiction? It's alternate history, which >>isn't properly science fiction at all... SPECULATIVE fiction, remember? >>There is a third category... There's what could have/be happening, what >>could never happen (magic, usually, although I'm sure that my Radical >>Faerie brothers would hate me for saying that), and what might happen in >>the future, with science mixed in but not definitely necessary. >> >> >If you want to get into categories of tense, S. Delaney's work can be >profitably used, I'm sure--though as I recall, his definitions only >differentiate between mundane fiction and SF, not varieties of SF. > >Heather > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you are so foolhardy as to ask a Whileawayan child to "be a good girl" and do something for you: "What does running other people's errands have to do with being a good girl? "Why can't you run your own errands? "Are you crippled?" -Joanna Russ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:43:44 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-08 19:50:01 EDT, you write: << Well, I can't believe the distinction between SF and fantasy is a meaningless one because - hey - I love SF and I loathe fantasy. Hmm.. pretty subjective distinction. >> I've always preferred SF to fantasy as well. I had an interesting experience once in talking with a writer who prefers fantasy.She can't stomach space flight and high tech, and I can't stomach magic and unicorns. We were discussing our current novels--mine SF and hers fantasy--and we discovered that, except for the ambiance, we were basically writing the same book! Perhaps it's the story that counts-- Lurima ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:16:09 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-08 19:50:01 EDT, Alison writes: << An artist takes on a (perhaps arbitrary) discipline, and then by working within that discipline, is forced to create. Like the sonnet form, or a three-minute album track or whatever. For me SF has that discipline. Because fantasy lacks any structure, or stricture, it sems to me to be flabby. Because literally anything can happen, literally nothing matters. >> I can appreciate that viewpoint, but I find that, for me, a really well- written fantasy draws me in to the point that I suspend disbelief. _Lord of the Rings,_ for instance, did so for me. I just finished Sherri S. Tepper's _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_ and it was convincing, anjoyable, although not as much so as was the Tolkeim trilogy. I fully agree, though, that unless a fantasy is handled with elegance and cleverness, it falls flat. Just one reader's opinion. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WaterLuv wrote: > In a message dated 98-04-08 19:50:01 EDT, Alison writes: > > << An artist takes on a (perhaps arbitrary) discipline, and then by working > within that discipline, is forced to create. Like the sonnet form, or a > three-minute album track or whatever. For me SF has that discipline. > Because fantasy lacks any structure, or stricture, it sems to me to be > flabby. Because literally anything can happen, literally nothing matters. >> > > I fully agree, though, that unless a > fantasy is handled with elegance and cleverness, it falls flat. > > For a reference on how to write fantasy I always turn to LeGuin's "the Language of the Night." She pretty much sums up the rules for writing fantasy -- and actually, instead of "lacking any structure" etc., fantasy (a _good_ one, anyway) is nothing _but_ structure. Or rather, style, which has to be restrictive in this genre. The rules are somewhat more restrictive for fantasy than science-fiction (as to _style_, not content, and for me at least without style there is no story, just an essay with fake names). She points out that in fantasy we don't have any "real-life" frame of reference, such as actual human history and events (as opposed to events in the fantasy story resembling them, such as wars, royal families, and so on), so if you try to write a fantasy outside a certain tone and style, your story may strike the reader as "false." The whole trick of writing fantasy is to write about "fantastic" things -- imaginary countries, magic, elves, trolls etc. -- without trying to make the reader think they are safe "in Poughkeepsie" (sp? I don't have my US map handy) as she put it, yet also make the reader "experience" the story as "real" in the way they would experience a George Eliot, Tolstoy, or any other writer of "realistic" fiction as real. Tolkien did this with "Lord of the Rings", and loads of writers have been trying to imitate him ever since. LeGuin said that the key to this style is language -- you have to make sure your characters don't speak as if they came from a Midwestern American suburb. I think that is why I find a lot of fantasy disappointing these days -- the writers have all these wizards and witches and kings, queens, magical quests, and so forth -- but the characters have no personalities, or worse, sound as if they hopped off of the tv screen while "Baywatch" was on and in to the pages of the book. Lilith -- ************* http://www.concentric.net/~Ligeia/ * The Web * http://members.tripod.com/~othiym/ * Universe * http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2527/ ************* http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5057/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:57:44 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender In-Reply-To: <352BF55E.557215D5@meer.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 8 Apr 98 , Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > Sandy Candioglos wrote: > > > > Did anyone else notice that Merideth (the person who came and found > > Snake and asked her to help save her partner Jesse, early in the book) > > is completely genderless? > I have a gender association with "Meredith," which bled over into > "Merideth." Also, I think that Merideth's nick name (Merry) associated > itself with "Mary," or maybe it was the "y" ending that many adult > women's nicknames have. (Or in my case, my real name). > > Like you, I don't know whether I'd have noticed that there were no > identifying pronouns if I didn't have that association. > I'd love to hear about how the crafting of these chapters (regarding > Merideth's gender) affected others readers. Wow, Merideth a woman? The thought never occurred to me when I read the book. I did not notice that identifying pronouns are completely missing (shows me up as a careless reader). However, I don't associate the names Merideth and Merry with female first names. If anything, Merry as a short name reminded me of Merry (male) in _Lord of the Rings_. But if there is no gender-identifying pronoun (I can hardly believe it and will certainly check this evening), why did I see M. as a man? Probably, because I identified his/her behaviour at the beginning as male (man comes on horse to the rescue, etc., yes, I know, I am not very proud of it). I remember that his/her later behaviour I saw as 'modern', 'emancipated' and so on - for a man. As I said, I will reread these chapters carefully this evening and think about it. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 06:57:22 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Petra, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > Wow, Merideth a woman? The thought never occurred to me when I read > the book. I did not notice that identifying pronouns are > completely missing (shows me up as a careless reader). snip. A careless reader? I don't think so. From what I hear, many of us did not notice there were no identifying pronouns. > But if there is no gender-identifying pronoun (I can hardly > believe it and will certainly check this evening), why did I see M. > as a man? Probably, because I identified his/her behaviour at the > beginning as male (man comes on horse to the rescue, etc., yes, I > know, I am not very proud of it). I remember that his/her later > behaviour I saw as 'modern', 'emancipated' and so on - for a man. As > I said, I will reread these chapters carefully this evening and think > about it. I think that because there are no gender identifying pronouns, Merideth will be seen as female by some and male by some. Merideth is an open character, fitting her/himself to what we bring to the novel, I think. I really like this aspect about this character. Truly, I don't know if I could stand having reading about a lead character, gender unidentified, in a fictional work longer than a long short story. The writing would have to be very good, because I am a product of the history of gender importance. However, I may enjoy trying to break my dependence on knowledge of gender of characters--through a good book. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:13:31 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: BDG--Reproductive control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, One of things that makes Dreamsnake's world so foreign to me is reflected in the question characters ask travelers: "Is there anything I can do for you?" Where else but a world in which both women and men are able to control their ability to reproduce could people offer to have sexual relations so casually? I have to say, hearing people offer to share a sexual experience with others in the same way a host offers coffee was unnerving. Sex appears to occur by choice. Still, since politeness seems to expect that the offer be made, or the question asked, I'm not completely convinced of the freedom of the one offering the "service." At the same time, I noticed (through Arevin's experience) that it also may be seen as rude if the one asked does not wish to participate. Is this sexual freedom? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:10:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: SF Subdivisions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:18:25 +0100 >From: Alison Page >Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Science Fiction > >Well, I can't believe the distinction between SF and fantasy is a >meaningless one because - hey - I love SF and I loathe fantasy. Hmm.. >pretty subjective distinction. > I think Alison is right on track here, actually. The idea of separating Speculative Fiction into Science Fiction, Fantasy, Alternate Reality, Magic Realism, etc. is a slippery one and one I think targeted to having a book reach the "right" audience. When a new book comes out with a vampire detective on another planet where magic works, having it labeled can help it find its readers. At least that's my bookseller's perspective. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:15:51 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I wasn't going to participate in this discussion until I had a chance to reread Dreamsnake. I checked it out of the library a few months ago and liked it so much that I bought a copy. But the following lured me in: In a message dated 98-04-09 10:02:35 EDT, laorka@meer.net writes: > One of things that makes Dreamsnake's world so foreign to me is > reflected in the question characters ask travelers: > > "Is there anything I can do for you?" > > Where else but a world in which both women and men are able to control > their ability to reproduce could people offer to have sexual relations > so casually? > > I have to say, hearing people offer to share a sexual experience with > others in the same way a host offers coffee was unnerving. > > Sex appears to occur by choice. Still, since politeness seems to expect > that the offer be made, or the question asked, I'm not completely > convinced of the freedom of the one offering the "service." > > At the same time, I noticed (through Arevin's experience) that it also > may be seen as rude if the one asked does not wish to participate. > > Is this sexual freedom? One of the reasons I like science fiction is the way in which it forces me to reassess my assumptions. I think we all have a tendency to assume that the way things are is the way things are supposed to be. Science fiction often challenges that premise. We have a strong cultural bias that sex is supposed to be a private sharing between people. That it's too important to indulge in casually, merely as a way of being polite. But is that the way it has to be? Lindy finds it unnerving to have the host offer sex in the same way that s/he offers coffee. Theodore Sturgeon wrote a short story in which a character found it unnerving that his hosts expected him to eat with them (Are you kidding? Do something so private with virtual strangers?) But in our society it's often considered rude to not offer food or drink to a visitor, and sometimes it's rude for the visitor to refuse such an offering. My point is that I'm not sure that in the world of Dreamsnake the question, "Is this sexual freedom?" has any meaning. Sexual freedom, it seems to me, is important only when the act of sex is inherently an important one and the freedom to do so with whomever one wishes is constrained. These are both true in our world, but neither is true in the world of Dreamsnake. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:10:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: BDG: Dreamsnake Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I reread Dreamsnake last week and, over the weekend, read The Exile Waiting (which I hadn't read before). I was reminded, reading Dreamsnake, of what a rich book it is: something about the juxtaposition of what would normally be cast as dystopian near-future with perfectly hopeful characters made me think much more than usual about the possibilities of the future. It was also a very different experience than the last time I'd read it (probably eight or ten years ago) because at that time, massive nuclear destruction was a much plausible future. I grew up believing in the probability of a nuclear war, and I think everyone of that era did -- the 70s and 80s featured a lot of post-nuclear apocalypse SF, and you don't really see that anymore. So the future proposed in Dreamsnake seems very different to me, now. But, although when we think of the world after a nuclear war we think of doom and gloom and despair, the world we see in Dreamsnake has put a lot of the pieces together again. The City, which as the repository of so much hidden technology ought to be the future, the living, thriving community, is almost literally eating itself. Because they're so scared of going outside they can't grow, they can't change, they can't learn, they're inbreeding themselves to death and they are terrified of any change in the status quo. Whereas outside, a dozen radically different cultures has emerged, and though they hurt each other, they also learn from each other. That Snake says the death of Grass is her own fault for her arrogance and inability to understand a very different people was incredibly striking to me, a way of thinking about human interaction that's so different from anything we're normally taught. So it was even more fascinating to me to read _The Exile Waiting_, which as I understand it was set in Center and written before _Dreamsnake_. The traders from outside, who come during the non-storm season, are mentioned once or twice, but when the city imagines being saved from itself it imagines getting off-world or being saved by people who come from off-world. I assume this inwardly-directed focus has more to do with this book being written before _Dreamsnake_, so that what I see as a very rich collaboration of communities is basically a throwaway plot device; but "knowing" about that outside world, that characteristic read as a symptom of the city's sickness. (I know this is something of a digression, but I'd always been fascinated by the City that, contrary to the standard Quest motif, we never got into. And for me it does enhance the world we see in _Dreamsnake_.) Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:26:06 CDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mary Ann Beavis, IUS" Organization: The University of Winnipeg Subject: Anybody interested in discussing Prey I've just signed back on to this listserv after several months' absence. I've recently become invovled in a campaign to "save" the wonderful (I think) ABC SF/Fantasy drama "Prey", which, from my involvement on the We Are the Prey message board, is immensely appealing to women. If you'd like to discuss the "feminist" appeal of the show (or at least its strong attraction for women), I'd sure be interested to hear your opinions. I hope this is not out of line, but I'm attaching an article that I wrote for Viewer's Voice about the show, enlisting support for the Preyfan campaign to save it. If any of you out there are among "The Prey", please take note! Campaign to Save Prey After showing only eight episodes, ABC pulled the promising and thought-provoking new science fiction drama "Prey" from its Thursday evening primetime lineup. Normally, the disappearance of a mid-season replacement scheduled opposite NBC's hit sitcom "Friends" and interrupted by frequent pre-emptions would go unnoticed, but this was different. "Prey" has spawned a new species of viewer, variously known as "The Prey," "The Preyed Upon," "Preymates," and "PreyXers," zealously devoted to ensuring that the remaining five episodes be aired, and that the show be renewed by ABC or another network. The startling and original premise of the show is that a new, smarter, stronger species of genus homo has emerged, indistinguishable in appearance from human beings, and fanatically dedicated to our annihilation. The fight to resist them is led by bioanthropologist Dr. Sloan Parker (Debra Messing), assisted by her colleague Ed Tate (Vincent Ventresca), the sinister Walter Attwood (Larry Drake), and police detective Ray Peterson (Frankie R. Faison). Also figuring in the drama is the enigmatic Tom Daniels (Adam Storke), a member of the new species who has "crossed over" to the human side. Something about the show's mixture of plot, action, emotion and character has sparked a powerful reaction in fans, many of whom have found each other through the dozen or so websites devoted to "Prey" that have sprung up since the show's debut on January 15. Preyfans spontaneously started to tape shows, watch them over and over between episodes, rewind and re-examine individual scenes, and visit the We Are The Prey Message Board (http://www.hi-fun.com/users/forum/users1/mysfyt) to discuss in minute detail the scientific, philosophical, ethical, spiritual and psychological implications of every detail of every show--not to mention the astonishing chemistry between the lead characters Sloan and Tom, played with scintillating conviction by Messing and Storke, whose developing relationship suggests that evolution might be about more than survival of the fittest. Although "Prey" has not been aired since March 19 (Episode 9 was arbitrarily pre-empted for "America's Funniest Home Videos"!) the discussion has not stopped, but mushroomed, and fans have resolved to protest the decision to pull the show and to lobby for its renewal, by ABC or another network. In addition to the usual strategies of writing, phoning, faxing and Emailing ABC and its affiliates, Preyfans have written to NBC, suggesting that "Prey" be acquired and added to the Saturday evening Thrillogy lineup, and to Fox, naming "Prey" as a worthy successor to the "Xfiles." Innovative ideas include "Prey Parties," where fans invite friends to watch and discuss taped episodes--and to sign letters of protest; contacting TV critics across North America to cover the phenomenal effect that the show has had on its fans; buying newspaper ads; and circulating "Prey" highlight tapes. Preyfans are also beginning to organize to concentrate on the most effective ways of promoting the show, and to get the word out to the thousands of viewers not on the Net, who have been wondering what happened to "Prey," and "preying" for it to return! Any assistance that could be afforded by Viewer's Voice in the effort to save this fascinating, adult, quality drama would be most appreciated. Addresses: ABC Jamie Tarses, President of ABC, 2040 Avenue of the Stars, 5th Floor, Los Angeles, CA 90067. Robert Iger, ABC President of Entertainment, 77 West 66th St., New York, NY 10023 ABC Comment line (leave a message): 310-557-6872, Press 4 Email: TVABC@CCABC.com Other Networks: Fox Broadcasting Co., P.O. Box 900, Beverly Hills, CA 90213 NBC Studios, 3000 W. Alameda Ave., Burbank, CA 91523 We Are The Prey Webring: http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=prey_abc;list ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:09:24 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [FSFFU] BDG: Dreamsnake (Science, Quest, Hero?) Dear Lindy Insofar as a hero is someone who has completed their Quest, attained the Goal, and found self-knowledge, Snake is a hero (definitely so if a 'hero' defines an active agent in the Quest, whereas 'heroine' too often defines Goal or Reward). I suspect if one analysed _Dreamsnake_ it would fit quite closely with the standard Jungian archetypes of the quest narrative--I have a book somewhere which talks about quest narratives using a Jungian framework, which I found very plausible. 'The crazy' for example might be seen as Snake's 'shadow', seeking the snakes not for the general good but for personal indulgence, and not caring who he hurts to attain them. So might North, who uses them for power over rather than power to help. Snake, like the protagonist of many fairytales, turns aside to help others and gains benefits which will aid her on the quest. Someone also mentioned that she doesn' t get into the city, which is a hurtful and dangerous and proud place: I wonder if there is an allusion there to _Pilgrim's Progress', one of the great quest narratives, where the pilgrims have to avoid the false temptations of Vanity Fair. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:50:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG: Dreamsnake Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-09 15:11:25 EDT, you write: << (I know this is something of a digression, but I'd always been fascinated by the City that, contrary to the standard Quest motif, we never got into. And for me it does enhance the world we see in _Dreamsnake_.) >> I find it interesting that Vonda sets her story among the people outside the City. She shows the growth of new society rather than the stagnation of the old (and we all know that our culture is getting pretty rank). I also liked the fact that compassion is so much a part of her protagonist--that Snake is willing to sacrifice a lot to help other people, even ones who are unkind to her. I consider this a major step forward from the instant-gratification, look-out-for-number-one shallowness of our society. The one problem I had with the novel is that snakes give me the heebie-jeebies and I couldn't deal with the scenes of snakes biting people. I don't care how different a twist she put on it--snakes are creepy. I notice also that, like Marghe, the protagonist of _Ammonite_, Snake puts together a family in a non-traditional manner. I think that gaining a daughter because you want to save someone from a life of undeserved misery is a beautiful thing. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:30:16 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: BDG: Dreamsnake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lurima wrote: > The one problem I had with the novel is that snakes give me the heebie-jeebies > and I couldn't deal with the scenes of snakes biting people. I don't care how > different a twist she put on it--snakes are creepy. Snakes are not creepy! I like snakes! :( In other cultures, snakes are symbols of wisdom, healing (even we use snakes in the caduceus - sp? - the medical profession's symbol) and other good things. The author approaches snakes from the viewpoint of non-Western cultures that saw the snake as a positive force rather than the feelings of horror, disgust, and death that the image of the snake seems to bring up in Western minds. What I liked about "Dreamsnakes" (I read it many years ago) was the way that, although these different cultures lived in a post-holocaust world, they weren't hopeless and suffering but active and striving. I saw the City as a symbol of a dead past that its inhabitants were clinging to. The future was in the outside world despite its dangers. Lilith <:~~~~ -- ************* http://www.concentric.net/~Ligeia/ * The Web * http://members.tripod.com/~othiym/ * Universe * http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2527/ ************* http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5057/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:03:50 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Anny, Thanks for your response. My discomfort with the host/hostess-like attitude (my definition) regarding sex has nothing to do with any assumption on my part that the way things are in "society" (i.e., the one in which I live) is the way things "ought" to be. Like you, I read Science Fiction to expand my awareness and to experience ways of being unfamiliar to me. (Science fiction, especially feminist, is one of the best ways to effect social change, IMO). Nonetheless, the "host/hostess" offering of sexual interaction twangs something within me. I take it as a sign that I should take a closer look. I said I found it unnerving for people to offer to share a sexual experience via the phrase "is there anything I can do for you," (which happens to be a stock phrase in restaurants where I live). I did not say it was "wrong." > My point is that I'm not sure that in the world of Dreamsnake the question, > "Is this sexual freedom?" has any meaning. This point is a valid one. Perhaps, "is there really personal freedom?" would have been more accurate. I suspect that part of my discomfort is that I cannot be *completely* convinced that in _Dreamsnake_, freedom to participate (even regarding an 'unimportant' act) truly included the freedom to NOT participate. (which may be why I asked the question so poorly). Yes, I am notoriously hard to convince, and this is probably because of my social conditioning regarding relations of any kind between those who hold unequal power. Relations across different levels of power (including sexual activity or not) create a combination which never fails to ring the "danger" bell in my head. I suspect it always will. True, it may be culturally correct to offer your body and energy. Seems that bond-- (or formerly bonded) servants working in a hostel or house would be offering their bodies more often than the people in the town. Is this a perk :D , a chore, or something else? And what about the bonded servants? We can only imagine. At the same time, another perspective could be to look at the phrase as THE accepted way in Mountainside (and other non-desert locations) to express that you are interested in sharing a sexual experience with someone. A polite manner in which to explore mutual interest. Attempting to look at the the range of sexuality within the novel, I find that coerced, or unwilling sex was an obvious issue with only Ras and Melissa. When the Mayor asks Melissa whether she had wanted sexual activity with Ras, it is implied that willingness to participate is the key, despite the power differential. Snake was very comfortable making the offer to show Melissa that safe, sexual feelings can be experienced, indicating comfort with sexual response of children. (Vonda McIntyre's handling of child sexuality in this novel makes me want to re-read Shulamith Firestone). No one forced, or "guilted" Arevin into participating in sexual activity. Still, I cannot rid myself of that cringe when I read the phrase. I think Vonda made a fascinating choice in choosing this phrase to have this meaning. I am wondering if this phrase was carefully crafted, something that just happened, or one of those instantaneous, miraculous combinations which perfectly fit what she had in mind. Science fiction authors often explore contemporary issues within the worlds they create. Perhaps "is there anything I can do for you" is part of one of those issues contemporary to my society. Would I want to live in Snake's society? The temptation to live in a world where no child is born without conscious decision and action by both parents is great. To live where the biological sex of your lovers/friends/casual acquaintances doesn't matter? Absolutely. Where multiple partner families are possible? Oh yeah! If I lived in this culture, perhaps I'd get used to the phrase if I had long-term evidence that of it's equality and safety. Then again, maybe I'd weave a shirt which said "No, there is not a single thing you can do for me, thank you very much!" Hard to know until you're there. Thanks, Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:15:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender Comments: To: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" In-Reply-To: <352BF55E.557215D5@meer.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > I'd love to hear about how the crafting of these chapters (regarding > Merideth's gender) affected others readers. > I'm actually the person who wrote to the list months ago asking Vonda about her genderless characters. At that time, I was asking about the genderless Merry in *Starfarers*. I too found it very exciting to have a character without a gender, simply because it forces us as readers to either attach a gender to the character, or to ignore gender as a characteristic, which is very hard to do, since it's usually one of the first things we find out about a new character. I have found it quite hard to avoid giving the character one gender or another, but with both of these Merrys (especially the one from *Starfarers*) I can't seem to get totally comfortable with one gender or the other. It makes for a great read, though! pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university But play, you must, A tune beyond us, yet ourselves, A tune upon the blue guitar Of things exactly as they are -Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:33:23 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: BDG: Dreamsnake comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some general comments on my re-read of Dreamsnake and the discussion so far: To me, it was clearly SF and not fantasy. There wasn't really anything that didn't have or have implied some sort of science-based explanation, which is sort of how I judge the difference. My favorite "technology" presented was the brindled pony. I admit to having a weakness for striped dogs and think a pony version would be fabulous. What a clever example to show as a gene-manipulation science project! I also think the idea of modifying snakes to be pharmaceutical processing and delivery mechanisms is clever and dramatic and makes for a great story vehicle. I think someone on this list pointed out awhile ago the lack of gender identification for the Merideth character. I also missed it on the first read. On the second read, when I was looking for it, it seemed a little awkward. One thing I thought interesting: in at least one place the character's referred to as "Merry" or "Merrie", isn't there a similarly gender-ambiguous character by that name in McIntyre's Starfarers series? People are wondering about the domes, and now I am as well. McIntyre set another book on the same world, The Exile Waiting, and that might have some explanation. I'll pull it off my shelf and look at it next chance I get. I assumed, by the way, that this world was a future Earth. Anyone else make that assumption? I liked the acknowledgement that the alien plants would be dangerous to the native ecosystem, although I think it's more likely that outside of the dome's protection the plants wouldn't survive at all. I think too many authors just assume that terran organisms can function just fine on other planets when it seems so unlikely to me. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:51:12 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: Dreamsnake discussion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lindy, Good job so far, thanks. Discussion is picking up slowly, but I think with a few provocative posts it should catch fire. Try some posts about sex, that usually works! Or get people to speculate about what the domes are about, or why the people in the city are such jerks. Or why did North hate healers so much? Why are the people in Mountainside so much more beautiful than in other places? I'll keep thinking of questions. Good book, huh! Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:25:45 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: and the madness of crowds... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, I'll bite and follow up on this one: joseph santini: MPG wrote: (and I'm snipping liberally here so apologies if this ends up getting taken wildly out of context) > ... > Fantasy, on the other hand (and I like fantasy as well as science or > speculative fiction) deals in the impossible. Impossible worlds in which > magic works (although I have to admit I still believe in the proposal by > Diane Duane in her Wizard novels that one can change the universe by > speaking to it), in which animals *we have on this earth* can speak... > Fantasy is the ultimate deviation from science fiction, because it sticks > to what couldn't happen, and builds on that. What do you make of Tepper's recent book, darn the title's slipping my mind at the moment but I believe it's something like The Family Tree? In this book, animals do talk, but it's a premise of the story that they have been genetically engineered (by humans) to give them this capacity. Does that make this fantasy, or s* fiction? Just curious. I'm so interested to see all the mental categories people have and how different they are from one another. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:02:32 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: BDG: _Dreamsnake_: the Domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm really curious about these domes. What is this material that they, and the rings around Larril's achilles tendons, are made of? What were they for? Since the Broken Dome has alien flora, (which is somewhat compatible with the terrestrial surroundings), does this indicate that aliens lived on the planet before the war? Were the domes (and aliens) targets in the war? Is this why the aliens only deal with Central? Did anyone pick up clues about the domes that would explain (or suggest explanation) for any of these questions? Any speculation? Thanks, Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:05:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender This is technically off topic, but anyone interested in trying to decipher a genderless character should check out Sarah Caudwell's Professor Tamar in her mysteries "Thus Was Adonis Murdered", "Shortest Way to Hades", and "The Sirens Sang of Murder". All kinds of interesting gender games, as well as the most elegant writing style (somewhat akin to Judith Martin (Miss Manners)). _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:25:38 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: _Z for Zachariah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know if this book (By Robert C. Obrien) would be classified as feminist science/speculative fiction, but it has an tough girl as the narrator/POV character. In our library system, this novel is classified as Juvenile Fiction. Ann Burden and her family survive an atomic (and biochemical) war. (And this is the weakest part of the novel), the family and the neighbors go off to see if the world has actually ended, leaving Ann (15 yrs. old) and her brother Joseph to tend the farm. Seems Joseph stowed away in the vehicle and they never return. Ann was left completely alone. Alone, until a scientist arrives in the valley. Has anyone read it? I was working Children's reference the other day and spotted it. Ann turns out to be quite tough. The dynamics between her and the science guy were edged, to say the least. Not the best book I've read, but one I might suggest for a 7th-9th grader (female or male). Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:08:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: _Z for Zachariah In-Reply-To: <3532C922.6C3C1FD4@meer.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: ... > Has anyone read it? I was working Children's reference the other day > and spotted it. > > Not the best book I've read, but one I might suggest for a 7th-9th > grader (female or male). ... I can't help but smile. I have NOT read it. My 5th grade science teacher read it to our class though. So in a sense I did read it. I've always meant to read it but I haven't found it or looked too hard for it. Maybe it was his breathtakingly wonderful story telling skill, or simply the storytelling/sharing experience that is missing from a reading, but I loved that story. (It could have been the story, it could be me, or it could have been my age, or any number of the before, or...) Having thought about it I realize how simplistic much of it was, but I didn't/don't care. The messages are a little plain, but 5th graders aren't expected to handle more complex messages till they grow up a bit (however agist that may be/seem). The girl is bright, independent, and deals with many of the day-dreamy thoughts that I was having at that time in a direct and thoughtful manner. These included: sudden loss of adults/society/those in power/those we depend on responsibility vs. rights (reproductive/sexual in this case) locus of control a number of sexual stereo-types and such I can't respond from a position of semi-mature analysis, but from a position of relatively immature naivete and impressionability. From that position, I cansay that I loved it (at least in read to me form) and that I still feel about it and remember it as being a beneficial and developmental book. Of course I also loved _So You Want to be a Wizard_ enormously despite some glaringly sexist stuff (in my (and it's) defense, it had a lot going for it feminism-wise too) Ahh, those were the days. I wish I could sit on the floor and listen to books being read with feeling by science teachers still. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:58:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: Re: _Z for Zachariah In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Out of curiosity, what were some sexist things in the _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ series? I don't remember much. Perhaps the later books were less sexist? They certainly don't seem so at all to me. joe At 12:08 diem 4/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: >... >> Has anyone read it? I was working Children's reference the other day >> and spotted it. >> >> Not the best book I've read, but one I might suggest for a 7th-9th >> grader (female or male). >... > >I can't help but smile. I have NOT read it. My 5th grade science teacher >read it to our class though. So in a sense I did read it. I've always >meant to read it but I haven't found it or looked too hard for it. > >Maybe it was his breathtakingly wonderful story telling skill, or simply >the storytelling/sharing experience that is missing from a reading, but I >loved that story. (It could have been the story, it could be me, or it >could have been my age, or any number of the before, or...) > >Having thought about it I realize how simplistic much of it was, but I >didn't/don't care. The messages are a little plain, but 5th graders >aren't expected to handle more complex messages till they grow up a bit >(however agist that may be/seem). > >The girl is bright, independent, and deals with many of the day-dreamy >thoughts that I was having at that time in a direct and thoughtful manner. >These included: >sudden loss of adults/society/those in power/those we depend on >responsibility vs. rights (reproductive/sexual in this case) >locus of control >a number of sexual stereo-types and such > >I can't respond from a position of semi-mature analysis, but from a >position of relatively immature naivete and impressionability. From that >position, I cansay that I loved it (at least in read to me form) and that >I still feel about it and remember it as being a beneficial and >developmental book. > >Of course I also loved _So You Want to be a Wizard_ enormously despite >some glaringly sexist stuff (in my (and it's) defense, it had a lot going >for it feminism-wise too) > >Ahh, those were the days. I wish I could sit on the floor and listen to >books being read with feeling by science teachers still. > >-- Joel VanLaven > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Have you no respect for the past? For what was thought and believed by your foremothers?" "Why, no," she said. "Why should we? They are all gone. They knew less than we do. If we are not beyond them, we are unworthy of them--and unworthy of the children who must go beyond us." -Charlotte Gilman, "Herland" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:03:15 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control Comments: To: laorka@meer.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Lindy-- It seems we're getting into a discussion here on sexual mores in Dreamsnake, which means I'd better say upfront again that I haven't read the book in some months. My comments here may be somewhat incorrect in terms of how they relate to that work. The power aspects of a cultural expectation that sex will be offered to a guest seem to bother you, at least in the sense that you find it unnerving. I don't think I explained myself well in my last letter, and hope that I do better this time. The relationship between host and guest seems to me to include a culturally- based implied contract. Certain behaviors are expected of both host and guest. Suppose that Chris, a dear friend of yours, calls and says, "My cousin has a job interview in your town. Can Lee stay with you?" If you say Yes, you are agreeing to certain behaviors -- to make Lee feel welcome in your home, to provide Lee with a place to sleep and to bathe and to put personal belongings, to make conversation and otherwise provide some amusement to your guest, to supply food and drink. In turn, Lee agrees to certain behaviors. Both of you give up some personal freedom. Our culture doesn't say that the host/guest relationship means that sex must be offered, but if it did I don't see that this is a power issue, at least not between host and guest. I see it only as a part of that implied contract. If it's an expectation in your culture that a host offer sex to a guest, then doesn't the act of agreeing to be host include that offer, just as in our culture agreeing to be host implies the offer of food and drink and sleeping space? Adding servants to the mix complicates the issue. I wasn't raised and do not now live in a situation where household servants are common, so this is more difficult for me to assess. I do know that when such servants were common, houseguests were expected to tip the servants in recompense for the additional work their presence caused. But it seems to me whether it's wrong to demand that a servant have sex with a guest depends on how sex is viewed by that culture. If sex is commonly offered as routinely as food or drink, then maybe for a servant to refuse to have sex with a guest would be viewed as odd behavior, just as refusing to supply the guest with a glass of water would be. Why should the expectation that servants use their bodies and energy to supply guests with sex be seen as any different from them using their bodies and energy to serve food or iron clothes or clean the bathroom for a guest? A servant can't refuse to do those activities, and no one realistically expects that s/he should. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:03:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: _Z for Zachariah Comments: To: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" In-Reply-To: <3532C922.6C3C1FD4@meer.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > I don't know if this book (By Robert C. Obrien) would be classified as > feminist science/speculative fiction, but it has an tough girl as the > narrator/POV character. In our library system, this novel is classified > as Juvenile Fiction. I read this when I was about 13 or 14. I had such good memories of it that I recently bought a copy and re-read it. I can see why I liked it so much back then. I loved science fiction but there was so little of it that featured a teen age girl expecially one who managed to survive adversity through her own skill and common sense. (snip) > Has anyone read it? I was working Children's reference the other day > and spotted it. It isn't the most cheerful book in the world. I remember how I thought the ending was a bit depressing but very thought provoking. I wondered if I would have made the same choices as the main character. She goes through some pretty bad experiences and manages to cope and come up with solutions she could live with. (snip) > Not the best book I've read, but one I might suggest for a 7th-9th > grader (female or male). I agree. > Lindy Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:20:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: _Z for Zachariah In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980414005801.0072a508@haverford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, joseph santini: MPG wrote: > Out of curiosity, what were some sexist things in the _So You Want To Be A > Wizard_ series? I don't remember much. Perhaps the later books were less > sexist? They certainly don't seem so at all to me. The boy like machines and has the antenna as a wand. The girl likes nature and has a rowan branch as a wand. While the main character is the girl and there are bully girls, I saw gender roles as very important to the author of those books. It is an assumed thing that boys are like this: and girls are like this: At least, that's the impression I got. I agree it is better than most, but I do not intend to hold it up as a good example of thoughtful feminism. Thinking back to _Z Is for Zacariah_, I think it very well might be considered thoughtful feminism. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:27:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, AnnyMiddon wrote: (snip) > Why should the expectation that servants use their bodies and energy to supply > guests with sex be seen as any different from them using their bodies and > energy to serve food or iron clothes or clean the bathroom for a guest? A > servant can't refuse to do those activities, and no one realistically expects > that s/he should. Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I think that a host or servant offering sex was a personal choice and not just a matter of politeness. I'm sure that if the guest had not been attractive to the sevant than sex would not have been offered. I think everyone had free choice. I also don't think that having sex with a guest can be equated with cooking and cleaning. Cleaning a room isn't the same as having personal contact. I noticed that there was no mention at all of sexually transmitted diseases. This was rather peculiar even for when the book was written. I would expect that there would be some new types of STDs as well as most of the old ones. I just don't see sex being offered so casually in a world where medical conditions had become primitive (in spite of Snake's ability to manipulate DNA the rest of the world couldn't even manufacture antivenom) and trained healers were rare. > Anny > AnnyMiddon@aol.com > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:47:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: FW: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this was probably intended for the whole list. -----Original Message----- From: Lurima [mailto:Lurima@aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 13, 1998 4:47 PM To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake comments In a message dated 98-04-10 14:47:50 EDT, you write: << I assumed, by the way, that this world was a future Earth. Anyone else make that assumption? >> Yes, it seemed to be a post-Apocolyptic [sp?] story. It was a nice contrast to the Buck Rogers series on TV, in which the characters we saw lived in the clean, white, protective dome, and never gave a thought to the pathetic beings living in the destroyed world outside, except to speak of them condescendingly as "mutants." I kept waiting for one of the "good guys" to offer to share the goodies of life with those on the outside. lurima