Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9804C" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: BDG--Sexual Mores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Anny, Thinking about it, the custom in which people may be? are? required/encouraged to offer sexual participation with a guest seems to be regional. During his travels to find Snake, Arevin did not know that others were offering to participate in sexual contact when they asked him if there was anything else they could do for him. I don't know what is acceptable socially/individually sexual activity is for the peoples of the desert. I get the feeling that sex may not be a casual act for his people when emotional love is felt for another (again, from his reaction in the scene with Jean, the herder). He refuses politely when he learns what "is there anything I can do for you" means. This scene is also one which supports that there is choice involved, beyond politeness. Jean explains that "is there anything I can do for you" means that she finds him attractive and wants to share a sexual experience. So, what happens if someone does not find a guest sexually attractive? Or what if one's libido is at a low at that time? (in case one has physiological cycles. . . who knows how people have been affected by the radiation their ancestors survived? Maybe everyone's libido is in full force all the time. :-D ) > The relationship between host and guest seems to me to include a culturally- > based implied contract. Certain behaviors are expected of both host and > guest. snip. > Both of you > give up some personal freedom. True, (at least theoretically--having had the guests from the dark side before. brrrrr......) > Our culture doesn't say that the host/guest relationship means that sex must > be offered, but if it did I don't see that this is a power issue, at least not > between host and guest. I see it only as a part of that implied contract. If > it's an expectation in your culture that a host offer sex to a guest, then > doesn't the act of agreeing to be host include that offer, just as in our > culture agreeing to be host implies the offer of food and drink and sleeping > space? I think it is different because it requires physical contact. Sex when you are not interested is no fun. Having sex with someone you dislike is even worse. I am not saying that this is happening in Mountainside. We have nothing to point to in the book about how things happen when you're not attracted to the host or guest, except in a little bit through Arevin (with Thad, Larril and Jean, and I can't count on it completely because he was not familiar with this custom). I can only speculate, and any guesses will be tainted with my own view, despite any attempt to be absolutely objective. Same sex partners, different sex partners, youngsters of nearly equal age partners, group partners, casual partners. . .none of this causes the tiniest twinge in my gut. The "is there anything I can do for you" also does. I wish it didn't. The situation with Melissa and Ras does, big time. I love Vonda for having a society in which a child's word is trusted and where an individual like Ras is seen as sick AND that the culture requires that they not simply make the offender leave town. A culture which holds itself responsible for the potential damage an offender could do. . . > Adding servants to the mix complicates the issue. snip. > But it seems to me whether it's wrong to demand that a servant have sex with a > guest depends on how sex is viewed by that culture. snip. > Why should the expectation that servants use their bodies and energy to supply > guests with sex be seen as any different from them using their bodies and > energy to serve food or iron clothes or clean the bathroom for a guest? A > servant can't refuse to do those activities, and no one realistically expects > that s/he should. In my mind, because I think everyone should have the opportunity to have limits. For me, this means where my skin starts, other people's rights end. Being economically disadvantaged or having to take a job to survive which requires one share one's body according to anther's will means to me that the culture is not an egalitarian one. I think that _Dreamsnake_ cultures are approaching egalitarian, except Center seems totally capitalistic. Mountainside has capitalistic seeming hierarchies, but people seem to have quite a bit of choice. Places which allow bonding, I don't know. I have to go to work, now, so if I've haven't attended to all of your well-thought out points, I'll have to wait until tonight. Your posts are very well reasoned and thoughtful, IMO. Thanks. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:06:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Apr 98 00:08:17 CDT." <199804150508.AAA42084@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Out of curiosity, what were some sexist things in the _So You Want To Be A >> Wizard_ series? I don't remember much. Perhaps the later books were less >> sexist? They certainly don't seem so at all to me. > >The boy like machines and has the antenna as a wand. >The girl likes nature and has a rowan branch as a wand. > >While the main character is the girl and there are bully girls, I saw >gender roles as very important to the author of those books. It is an >assumed thing that boys are like this: and girls are like this: At least, >that's the impression I got. I agree it is better than most, but I do not >intend to hold it up as a good example of thoughtful feminism. I didn't see that at all. I originally read these books when I was 14, and I did spare a moment to snarl at the nature/machine split. But I think that was a really minor point. Nita's love of nature rather than machines manifests itself in her two telescopes and her habit of watching the moon and the planets with them -- this is not your stereotypical non-science nature girl. (If you read on through the series you'll find the next wizard to pop up, a girl, uses computers as her focus.) When I read this book (at fourteen) I thought it was wonderfully feminist because it had a boy and a girl working together in complete equality. (And that's often rarer in teenagers than in adults!) I'm not sure where to draw the line on "thoughtfully feminist" -- frankly, SYWTBAW was, for me, kick-ass wishfulfilment. As such, I wanted it to show someone like me doing something I wanted to do, and it did that marvelously. The third book, _High Wizardry_, came along around when I started playing with computers, and featured a girl making magic with computers. Dead on. On the other hand, I probably would call her _Tale of the Four_ series (Door Into Fire, Door Into Shadow, etc) thoughtfully feminist. Also a bit utopian in that men and women have a tremendous amount of equality; and often, where there's inequality, it's shown as the result of a failure in the past, and something to be overcome. (Ie, only women have one particular type of magic... but the first book deals with the quest of a men to develop his own. Women use wooden rods to channel their power, and he's told to use a sword...but the female lead can't do that, and it won't spoil too much of the story if I tell you that her focus, when she eventually finds it, is a legendary sword of a legendary queen ruler.) But it has very open sexual mores; you sleep with who you like, you have children with who you like, you marry who you like; it has kings and queens as the male and female version of exactly the same role (none of this "wife of the king crap"); it features a Goddess who instatiates as male or female, depending on what she feels like today; it plays with non-human characters who are not genderless, but whatever gender they think will be interesting today; in short, it mucks around with many, many ideas of gender and sexuality without getting really het up about them. And the women (and female silicon-based life forms, and female 2-ton, destroyer-commanding slugs) in her Star Trek novels are really a breath of fresh air. Diving off topic, what *I* thought was the most overriding theme of all of these books was the idea of sacrifice and redemption: almost literally each book, including some of the Star Trek ones, involves a great sacrifice (sometimes made by someone you thought was a bad guy) that gives the *real* bad guy a chance to redeem him/herself. And everyone who dies well is, in some way, reborn. Despite her frequent usages of pagan imagery these sequences seem to me to most closely resemble your favorite egg-based holiday and mine, Easter Sunday. (Don't let me claim this is objective, though. I love these books, even when the writing style is looser than I like.) jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:18:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ In-Reply-To: <9804151806.AA01429@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know I really ought to go read these now as an "adult" but I distinctly remember them as having sexism in them. I read the first two books and that is it. I would have read more but I didn't know they existed. Perhaps they came out after I had moved on to other authors. The first book showed us a nerdy girl (reads lots of books, even books in the childrens's section) who finds magic and a male friend. They go off and save the world. Of course I didn't see her as soing all that much. She does figure out the final puzzle that saves everything, but she didn't seem to be doing the masculine fighting stuff. That is left to the (male?) sports car, the boy, and the (male?) black hole (?). Second book: that boy is a boyfriend (?) and when push comes to shoeve a male saves the day ina hugely heroic action. I saw her as being a wizard yes, but still in many ways a weak female character. In particular, the impression I got was that her traditional femininity was a strong component of her character. It rubbed me the wrong way. I loved those books and I can't see exactly how it could have been different, but it did not mesh well with my conception of what feminism is. This is the problem with critiquing good books, they really are good and I am not talking about huge problems, just a lack of complete greatness. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:35:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jen Subject: Introducing.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello everybody! I'm new here, so I though I would offer a short intro. I'm a 21 year old college senior. I graduate May 9 :) :) :) Can't wait!! I will have a B.S. in social and criminal justice, with a women's studies minor. I have a part time job set up for the summer as a research assistant for the community corrections department in my home town. I'm from Michigan - been here all my life. I love to read, but don't have a whole lot of time, with school and all! I'm a relatively new feminist. I didn't really know what it was until I got to college! So, now I am taking a course in women writers for my minor and am really enjoying it. My professor mentioned some books in passing about feminist literature - some are science fiction, that I hope to check out soon. My question, open to all, is: can you recommend some good feminist sci-fi books? I'm looking for utopian style literature. And are there any books you could recommend as sort of "starter" literature to get me started? I haven't read much feminist sci-fi before, so I'd like to start off small, ya' know? Nice "meeting" you all! Peace, Jen *********************************************************** Women Initiating Social Equality (W.I.S.E.) invites you to visit our new web page at: www.geocities.com/Wellesley/3291/ Special Notice: Contains Important Information regarding the "Take Back the Night March," April 19th. ************************************************************ "Feminism is the belief that women are people, too. "Women exist as women; at least I know I exist, and 'ain't I a woman?'" - Rosemarie Putnam Tong ************************************************************ I want to believe. The truth is out there. ************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:21:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Having read the _Wizard_ books more recently, perhaps I can give an alternative interpretation of it, with a more positive feminist exposure. >The first book showed us a nerdy girl (reads lots of books, even books in >the childrens's section) who finds magic and a male friend. They go off >and save the world. Of course I didn't see her as soing all that much. >She does figure out the final puzzle that saves everything, but she didn't >seem to be doing the masculine fighting stuff. That is left to the >(male?) sports car, the boy, and the (male?) black hole (?). Hm. It's true that a predominant majority of the characters here are male. However, Nita, the female main character, is the one who defeats the Power at the end of the book, and while she does more puzzle-solving than her male counterpart, Kit, she is certainly not left out of the fighting, since her nature-empowered rowan want is the only weapon that can attack certain of their enemies. >Second book: that boy is a boyfriend (?) and when push comes to shoeve a >male saves the day ina hugely heroic action. Er, no. In fact, the problem of whether or not to instigate a relationship is a big one for Nita in this book; the boy is relegated mostly to the background. Nita, after much quandary, decides to sacrifice herself in order to "save the world" and defeat the Power once more, but her youth convinces a shark to sacrifice himself for her as well (this shark is apparently close to immortal). Also, in this book, she is the one who confesses her wizardly status to her parents, resolves issues between people, and generally does a lot more than be the generic witch, IMHO. While it's true that the *male* shark saved her from, basically, killing herself, it's Nita and her abilities which save several lives. (I believe the person she replaces in the self-sacrificial ritual is also male.) In the third book these two are a team, basically, and Nita's sister, Dairine, is the main character. She has no partner, and bosses around an obviously male computer. She also loves books (I might add that book- and word- loving is shared by ALL the wizardly characters) and basically defeats the Power single-handed (she is the MOST powerful wizard in the game at that point.) The Bright Power who reveals itself after this battle is a woman, by the way. >I saw her as being a wizard yes, but still in many ways a weak female >character. In particular, the impression I got was that her traditional >femininity was a strong component of her character. Femaleness, yes, but not traditional feminity. There are some things women do better than men, and some things men do better than women. Birth and ejaculation are distinct examples of these. I hate movies and books which try to show that women can take over the position of men, because that's not the POINT of feminism. Certainly women can do any civil, mental, or physical action a man can do, given the same training. I could, given the same training, play football; this doesn't mean someone else, due to natural ability, couldn't do it better. Femaleness is instinctively connected with motherhood, which leads to certain qualities: protectiveness (inherent in maleness too, but perhaps not as strongly) and definitely a higher level of empathy. Maleness implies the expendable fringe force. Feminity is too connected with the mincing ladies of yesteryear for me; the qualities I ascribe to femaleness have nothing to do with that. Joe "Mommy, why can't I be a woman?" S. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Have you no respect for the past? For what was thought and believed by your foremothers?" "Why, no," she said. "Why should we? They are all gone. They knew less than we do. If we are not beyond them, we are unworthy of them--and unworthy of the children who must go beyond us." -Charlotte Gilman, "Herland" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:50:00 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Stacey, > Hope you don't mind me jumping in. :) Of course not. snip. > I noticed that there was no mention at all of sexually transmitted > diseases. This was rather peculiar even for when the book was written. I > would expect that there would be some new types of STDs as well as most of > the old ones. I just don't see sex being offered so casually in a world > where medical conditions had become primitive (in spite of Snake's ability > to manipulate DNA the rest of the world couldn't even manufacture > antivenom) and trained healers were rare. I hadn't even thought of STDs. Good catch. Control of reproduction is not the only consideration. I remember one instance in which someone (Jean) offering to share sexual activity pointedly assured the potential partner (Arevin) that she was healthy, after he indicated that he was not interested. ("I'm healthy, if you're worried"). She would not have said this, I think, if there were *no* worries about STDs or passing on a cold. Yet, the characters seemed very confident that their health would not be compromised through sexual activity. Thanks for bringing this up. Anyone else have thoughts about this aspect? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:37:14 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: BDG: Melissa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was thinking about Melissa. Melissa's scene with the Mayor (when Snake is trying to adopt her) is when I get the strongest message about Mountainside's philosophy regarding reproductive control. When Ras declares that Melissa did not need to see a woman's teacher to learn the techniques to control her reproduction, the Mayor flips, and says: "How dare you do such a thing!. . . How dare you endanger her! How dare you condemn her to ignorance and discomfort!" I felt personally comforted by the Mayor's rage, especially after he had reacted negatively to Melissa's scars. That rage was also welcome because I half expected the Mayor to agree (personally, if not officially) with Ras that a disabled/disfigured human had no need to learn to control her reproductive capacity--no one would be able to bear her "unsightliness." Mountainsiders have a great love of beauty (with the flip side being a great discomfort/dislike of "less than beautiful"). So, where in the cultures of _Dreamsnake_ do people with disabilities, like Melissa, fit in? Ras was able to take sick advantage of the result of Melissa's injury. She became a secret--hardly anyone knew (remembered?) she was alive. Her scars from the burns served to isolate her from people who may have helped her. This could not have happened without negative reinforcement from the people with whom Melissa came into contact. I'm a bit surprised that in a society that is so somatically focused (learning bio-control to control reproduction), and the descendents of people who lived with some amount of radiation from the war(s), disability/disfigurement is such a big deal. Life is still tough. Most people don't have access to healers. Makes me wonder why there were so many extremely gorgeous people in Mountainside. Forgetfulness of being unacceptable was the drug North offered to "his people" via the dreamsnakes he found in the broken dome. Why would this be attractive unless there were few options? I see this as another example of the complexity of the world Vonda McIntyre created here. No utopia, but there is still hope. Melissa finds the strength to speak up about what Ras's sexual attacks, and has the opportunity to live a life worthy of her heart. There are lots of things I like about the depiction of Melissa, but I have to get up early tomorrow morning. 'night. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:31:47 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: christina mugnosso bogsten Content-Type: text/plain Hi I'M writing an essay about Molly in Gibson's Neuromancer and I would like to have other's opinions about her character. Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mark Schebel Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <19980416113147.27042.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I took a Sci-fi class ans we read that book (I had read it before, thought).. A couple of things to think about: many people would love to reduce Molly to a character that shows sci-fi's sexism. For instance, we had one girl bring up in class that molly is always bringing case coffee and for two hours everyone talked about how sexist this was of gibson. The next day, my friend, while reading it again, counted the amount of coffee-serving times. Case serves molly coffee more. I guess what I'm tryint to say is to be careful when evaluating Molly, especially in gender terms. Gibson alludes to the fact that there is a lot about molly going on behind the facade. just keep that in mind. -mark On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, christina mugnosso bogsten wrote: > Hi > I'M writing an essay about Molly in Gibson's Neuromancer and I would > like to have other's opinions about her character. > > Chris > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | wage@hellyeah.com "A knife and a fork, a bottle and a cork, | http://scratch.hellyeah.com That's the way you spell New York" | --InSoc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:52:54 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ >but she didn't seem to be doing the masculine fighting stuff Gee, is this the definition of feminism and what defines the 'strong' female character? Surely not. Surely there are other ways of being strong--like, in Vol 2 of the series, ?_Deep Wizardry_ being prepared to sacrifice one's life? (Okay, the shark does it in the end, but how gendered _are_ sharks???) What is wimpy and girly-girly about that? Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:01:09 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control >Yet, the characters seemed very confident >that their health would not be compromised through sexual activity. The likelihood is, that if people aren't massively hung up with guilt and shame about sexuality, and don't have any problems about communicating with partners, health risk will be considerably minimised. Presumably everyone will know about common STDs, their symptoms, and what to do about them, which includes not passing them on, but they won't be paranoid about them. Some things have to be implicit in a fictional narrative: there's nothing more boring than the kind of utopian novel that goes into great, totally undramatised detail about all its terrific arrangements for absolutely everything. Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? Lesley lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: (snip) > Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health > education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? Depending on the type of story and the style, this might be rather interesting. > Lesley > lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:16:14 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control Stacy wrote, in reply to my query (snip) >> Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health >> education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? >Depending on the type of story and the style, this might be rather >interesting. Yes, it could be, but only if dramatised within a narrative context (anything could be interesting if so), rather than a 'this is our wonderful STD clinic, it is organised thus and so...' type of tour which too many utopias have. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:16:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok, Ok. They were great. I loved them. They had a female main character. They were probably very feminist. I'm sorry, I really am, I won't disparage them any more. I should have picked a better example of a book I loved that was not feminist, one that is misogynistic maybe. How about the _Giving Tree_. I read that from a gender perspective and became quite upset. On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: > >but she didn't seem to be doing the masculine fighting stuff > > Gee, is this the definition of feminism and what defines the 'strong' female > character? Surely not. Surely there are other ways of being strong--like, in > Vol 2 of the series, ?_Deep Wizardry_ being prepared to sacrifice one's life? > (Okay, the shark does it in the end, but how gendered _are_ sharks???) What is > wimpy and girly-girly about that? The shark was very gendered, in fact, that might be considered part of what I am talking about. The books felt very gendered. I am into non-gendered rather than gendered. Further more, I should have been more explicit. The problem was not that the girl was not doing the masculine fighting stuff, it was that there was masculine fighting stuff that was important and vital that was done my males. I was saying that no matter how much power the girl had she still fit into the traditional role assignment. Gender seemed to matter a tremendous amount, not for some explict reason but as a given part of the workings of the world. Most of life works around that and based on that assumption. It is not uncommon. It is what particularly gets on my nerves though, based on how I personally define feminisim and sexism. That is what I was trying to say. So, I am quite likely wrong. I will go back and re-read these books to see if my perceptions are clouded by time or something else. Since so many people think these books are so good why haven't we discussed them before? Who wrote them? Sorry again, -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:52:10 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control Hi everyone! > On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: > > (snip) > > Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health > > education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? > > Depending on the type of story and the style, this might be rather > interesting. > > > Lesley > > lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > > > > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) >From a Med. Micro. point of view, I think details on sexual health management would be interesting and educational. There are many myths and much data and many theories, and most times the facts are an amalgam of all of those things. I think as Science Fiction can potentially become fact in the future then any venturings of Science Fictionwould provide more imagination; imagination is most important in science when brick walls are hit in research. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:10:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control Hello again! After reading Lesley's suggestions as to how this could be written, I like the idea even more. It would also provide, in addition to what I mentioned previously, the human perspective on the science (i.e. potential disease victim going through the system), which is probably as important as any other facet of research and is the one thing that many scientists ignore completely. All the science in the world does nothing without manageable implementation. Penny > From a Med. Micro. point of view, I think details on sexual health > management would be interesting > and educational. There are many myths and much data and many > theories, and most times the facts are an amalgam of all of those > things. I think as Science Fiction can potentially become fact in the > future then any venturings of Science Fictionwould provide more > imagination; imagination is most important in > science when brick walls are hit in research. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:00:13 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ >Since so many people think these books are so good why haven't we >discussed them before? Who wrote them? They are by Diane Duane. Why haven't we discussed them?--because there are lots and lots of books we could discuss and none of us have endless time to do it in, so what provokes discussion is mention of a particular book or author, often in connection with some theme or thread in which they're alluded to. (I look around at my shelves and consider how few of the authors represented on them--well over 90% female on the sf/fantasy shelves--have ever been mentioned, let alone discussed, on this list) It might also have something to do with the fact that this series was, I think, initially published as YA? Or maybe not, as Robin McKinley has been, and her books were also published as YA. Plus, there can be ways of writing about gender which use relatively traditional formulations of same, which are nonetheless feminist and non-sexist, if the context is about mutual respect for different strengths, and a lack of rigid prescriptions about appropriate behaviour. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:07:36 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control: STD clinics Has anyone else seen a wonderful Australian film (called, I think, _The Clinic_) which is about a day in an STD clinic? It's a fiction film and perhaps, on retrospection, a little soap-opera-y with all the stories about the staff and the patients that flit through it, but immensely enjoyable. I can't think of any sf stories I've ever read which include STD clinics! Safe-sex appears in some, 'loathsome diseases' in others, but not g-u depts. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:10:41 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Teresa Alonso Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to confess that I don't know what you mean by YA . Is that a US classification?. Does it have anything to do with books written for young readers? thanks Teresa -----Original Message----- De: Lesley Hall Para: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Fecha: viernes 17 de abril de 1998 21:33 Asunto: Re: [*FSFFU*] _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ << big snip>> It might also have something >to >do with the fact that this series was, I think, initially published as YA? >Or >maybe not, as Robin McKinley has been, and her books were also published as >YA. >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:37:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Lindy and Stacey and everyone-- I've decided that I can't go on discussing sexual mores and reproductive control in Dreamsnake until I've reread the book -- it's getting too embarrassing to have to keep saying that I don't recall the details. I will do so this weekend. Expect more comments from me next week. In the meantime I wanted to respond to this, though: In a message dated 98-04-14 12:35:14 EDT, ausar@NETDOOR.COM writes: > I noticed that there was no mention at all of sexually transmitted > diseases. This was rather peculiar even for when the book was written. I > would expect that there would be some new types of STDs as well as most of > the old ones. I just don't see sex being offered so casually in a world > where medical conditions had become primitive (in spite of Snake's ability > to manipulate DNA the rest of the world couldn't even manufacture > antivenom) and trained healers were rare. I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the interaction of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction of syphilis. I wonder what STDs existed among people in the Americas before Columbus. Gonorrhea? Trichomoniasis? Herpes? Is it possible there were none? Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of STDs inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they will be subject to STDs? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:06:24 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anny said - > Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of STDs > inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have > sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they > will be subject to STDs? Not at all. When populations are fairly isolated they build up resistance to disease. The main problems occur when two populations meet and give each other the diseases they are resistant to. This applies to STDs just the same as any other. We are globally in the throws of this syndrome, as long distance travel has built up over the last 2000 years bringing waves of epidemics. I think quite a lot can be explained by looking at disease patterns. For example I think the australian and american indigenous populations were fairly disease-free and therefore got decimated by the europeans. Africa had far greater levels of indigenous disease, a lot of them held in parasites, which made it far more difficult for europeans to take over. This was one reason why I liked Dreamsnake, in that it deals with the issue of disease control, which is such an important social issue. Incidentally, in this particular context, an STD 'strand' to the story wouldn't have been out of place would it? However you can't cover everything in one story. Alison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:59:00 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ My understanding is that Y = Young Adult, which is probably that liminal ground between the clearly juvenile and the adult. It is probably more used in the USA, but it is mostly from US publications that I get my information about sf/fantasy publications. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Teresa Alonso Sent: 18 April 1998 22:10 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ I have to confess that I don't know what you mean by YA . Is that a US classification?. Does it have anything to do with books written for young readers? thanks Teresa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:11:49 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control- STDs >I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the interaction >of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction of syphilis Wrong way round. It is often contended that syphilis came to Europe as a result of the Columbian 'discovery' of the Americas, since the major epidemic outbreak occured during the Italian wars of the late C15th-early C16th, which provided the ideal conditions for the rapid propagation of an STD. Certainly what was known at the time as 'The Great Pox' was florid and virulent for a century or so before a)either becoming less virulent as an organism b) the population developing immune responses and the disease thus become less vivid and slower in its effects. This is still a much debated question, complicated by the existence of non-venereal treponematoses which are often diagnostically indistinguishable from syphilis (e.g. give a postive Wasserman) but are not genital in their origins or effects. Also it's possible that a mild form of syphilis in European sailors, passed through a population without any immune responses to it, might have gained new virulence. Are STDs inevitable? Good but again possibly unanswerable question. One argument re syphilis is that it was originally a non-venereal disease which evolved, as conditions of hygiene etc made non-venereal transmission less viable, into an STD. So there is a logic of the micro-organism as well as the one of human sexual practice. Although I believe genital herpes is a slightly different organism from the 'cold sore' virus causing herpetic sores of the mouth, the timing of the late 70s moral panic about this 'incurable' (if non-fatal) STD did make me wonder whether, in fact, the increasing acceptability and practice of oral sex had had some relationship to its spread - on the other hand, at a time when other STDs seemed, if not in decline, curable, other genital afflictions became more studied and better known (e.g. also Chlamydia). It is not actually having sex with numerous partners which 'causes' STDs (though at one time this was the medical explanation!): it is the statistical probability that the more partners, the more likely that one will have an STD. However, given certain basic hygienic precautions, good sexual communications etc, it is less likely that STDs will run rampant through a society as they did through the - notionally monogamous! - Victorians. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:19:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control > I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the interaction > of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction of syphilis. I wonder > what STDs existed among people in the Americas before Columbus. Gonorrhea? > Trichomoniasis? Herpes? Is it possible there were none? > > Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of STDs > inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have > sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they > will be subject to STDs? > > Anny > AnnyMiddon@aol.com These are all excellent questions...and history doesn't have all the answers. Some facts are clear: In the here and now, STD's are a fact of life if you have sex. Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical cancer. Women who have an uncircumcized partner also have a higher risk of cervical cancer. Now, where did the diseases come from? The organism that causes Syphilis is found as normal flora in the vagina of sheep. What a pleasant visualization!! (This also explains all the sheep jokes.) Trichomoniasis is a condition where Trichomonas is an organism of the normal flora in certain areas (and in small numbers) of the female reproductive tract that finds its way to other tissues...sort of an "opportunistic" infection. The same is true of Candida (yeast). Of the others, I am unsure of the origins, etc. but I feel certain the CDC should have info available for interested parties. Just FYI...Penny ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:08:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Apr 98 10:19:51 EST." <161B9400E8C@calc.vet.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical >cancer. Is this a statistical thing, or is there some specifically causal effect? >Women who have an uncircumcized partner also have a higher risk of >cervical cancer. I've heard of these studies, but I've also been told that at least some of them could be heavily skewed by which communities do and do not circumcise men, and by which communities were used in the studies. I haven't been able to find the studies, so if you have seen them and know more about them I'd love to hear it. Someone else said: > Is the presence of STDs > inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have > sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they > will be subject to STDs? And what determines whether we call something an STD? There are a number of nominal STDs that can be picked up in a variety of ways (Hep A and B, for instance, and I think gonorrhea?) -- in a less puritanical or less sex-driven society, would it turn out to be more medically useful to classify them in other ways? In a society in which no one ever touched anyone else except in very limited circumstances, would we make the same stigmatising distinction between diseases spread by physical contact and those spread without? jessie jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control In-Reply-To: <161B9400E8C@calc.vet.uga.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Penelope Gibbs wrote: > Now, where did the diseases come from? The organism that causes Syphilis > is found as normal flora in the vagina of sheep. What a pleasant > visualization!! (This also explains all the sheep jokes.) There is a common belief in my country that syphilis is a "desease of shepards". Sheep flocks (or packs, or whatever is that called in English) are usually kept in some grassy areas high in the mountains far away from villages, and are led from place to place year around. Men who tend them usually do it alone, or with couple of other men. They can be away from their families for months. Therefore they "live with sheep" (i.e. have sex with them) for the lack of any other sex partner available. Since shepards are far away from people most of the time and live a solitary life, no one can see them do that and therefore punish them. So the main way people know about it is that they get this desease -- syphilis. "The desease of shepards". At least that's what I heard, long ago when I was a teen. BTW, one of the worst and most common male curse words I know in Tajik is "son of a goatfucker". It's funny, but in very traditional, macho third-world countries like Tajikistan, calling a man "gay" is a mortal insult. You can get killed for saying that, because a man who has sex with another man is not a man anymore. And you don't want to be "not a man" in a macho culture, you'd be better off dead. At the same time, having sex with animals for men, even though considered dirty, is still "better" than being gay. I mean, people will probably make fun of him, but they won't spit in his face. I guess raping an animal is kind of more respectable than letting another man penetrate oneself. Maybe because this way, one is still in control. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:27:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control In-Reply-To: <9804201908.AA12277@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > >Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical > >cancer. > > Is this a statistical thing, or is there some specifically causal effect? I can bet anything that eventually it will turn out to be the same kind of "scientific fact" as the "Women who hold full-time jobs become infertile". Otherwise, we should expect a big chunk of female generation of 70-s (after the Pill, before AIDS) to die off, rapidly, pretty soon. :( Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:42:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: list-mistress' reminders Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII stay on topic, y'all if you wish to reply to a message but it seems to be off-topic go ahead and reply - to the individual, not to the list if you want to unsubscribe send a message to: listserv@uic.edu and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf at your one-year anniversary of being on the list you will get a "renewal" notice - instructions are included but basically just reply and you will stay on the list. personal invective is not appreciated and will be gently reprimanded by your list-mistress let's see, what else? oh yeah, if a topic has changed substantially, ferchrissake change the subject line. if you want to be able to follow a thread then do something like this: SUBJECT: blah new topic (was re: blah old topic) ok? ok. peace laura quilter list-mistress ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:17:53 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: BDG--Reproductive control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/20/98 10:19:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << It's funny, but in very traditional, macho third-world countries like Tajikistan, calling a man "gay" is a mortal insult. You can get killed for saying that, because a man who has sex with another man is not a man anymore. And you don't want to be "not a man" in a macho culture, you'd be better off dead. At the same time, having sex with animals for men, even though considered dirty, is still "better" than being gay. I mean, people will probably make fun of him, but they won't spit in his face. I guess raping an animal is kind of more respectable than letting another man penetrate oneself. Maybe because this way, one is still in control. >> Wow, Marina; Thanks for the update on Tajik culture, if I may stretch the word so far. My knee-jerk reaction to the above is, "So much for the mores of morons." Sadly, I know enough to realize that these are not nut cases, simply products of a culture very very foreign to the one in which I was reared. Can I say a brief prayer of thanks that I was not born in one of these pits of Machismo? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:47:37 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG--Disease and Reproductive control In-Reply-To: <161B9400E8C@calc.vet.uga.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:19 A 20/04/98 EST, you wrote: >> I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the interaction >> of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction of syphilis. I wonder >> what STDs existed among people in the Americas before Columbus. Gonorrhea? >> Trichomoniasis? Herpes? Is it possible there were none? >> >> Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of STDs >> inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have >> sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they >> will be subject to STDs? >> >> Anny >> AnnyMiddon@aol.com > >These are all excellent questions...and history doesn't have all the >answers. Some facts are clear: > >In the here and now, STD's are a fact of life if you have sex. I agree!! As for inter-action between different racial groups - STD's have been blamed for serious health problems for whole populations. Particularly gonorrhoea and non-specific reproductive tract infections causing non-specific symptoms such as mild leucorrhoea in women. It is postulated that in some groups where sexual mores are strictly controlled or extremely modest, with cults of virginity and sexual repression for one or both genders, that it was STD's which forced such repression originally. For example, some cultures believe strongly in the association between female tract discharges and disease - which has then led to sexual beliefs and practices such as disgust with regards to female lubrication, ie: some cultures associate the natural lubrication of an aroused woman with leucorrheoa and disease; also, in some cultures the practice of male urination as soon as possible after ejaculation, as a kind of prophylactic in disease prevention. The most common outcome of the milder STD's is sterility in one or both genders, and if children are the gift of God, then lack of them is God's punishment, and if observation of a cause-effect relationship is seen between wanton sexuality-disease-and subsequent sterility, amongst their people - then obviously sex will be seen very differently by these cultures. Observation of such cause-effect in sexual practises, is no different than some cultures being well aware of the cause-effect relationship between contaminating their drinking water supplies with their own or their herd animals' wastes, and subsequent disease. Around the colonised world - STD's have been blamed for bringing hundreds of unique racial groups to the threshold of extinction through sterility - particularly those groups, which may have had a large number of endemic diseases, but not sexually transmitted ones. Hence these groups had no reason to think of sex as being associated with disease, and no reason to practise strict sexual mores/sexual hygiene practises within their group or with others outside it. One of the more unthinking expressions of caucasian contempt for other peoples, is the assumption they are hyper-fertile and "breed like rabbits". In the UK and USA expensive public health campaigns have barely succeeded in keeping STD's at a relatively stable, but still high rate of incidence. Poor countries do not have the luxury of sophisticated testing, tracking or education mechanisms. In the presence of a high incidence of life-threatening diseases, fertility threatening diseases must take second place. Hysterical fears of population explosion means also that 'second-place' will remain a long way behind. There is evidence that AIDS for example, had been endemic in African populations for decades before its emergence in the West, but it is only when the disease threatens our own privileged racial group that any action was taken. During the Vietnam war, approximately 40,000 cases of gonorrhoea and non-specific urethritis were documented every week amongst the armed services in Vietnam despite the armed services policy of condom provision and health-checks etc. Some of them came home to mid-western towns where permissiveness and the Pill was making its first impact. The mechanism was so apparent, that the possibility of germ warfare was discussed as some kind of Asiatic revenge. > >Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical >cancer. > >Women who have an uncircumcized partner also have a higher risk of >cervical cancer. > >Now, where did the diseases come from? The organism that causes Syphilis >is found as normal flora in the vagina of sheep. What a pleasant >visualization!! (This also explains all the sheep jokes.) There are other methods of transfer of diseases across species:)) Generally speaking, most bacteria and viruses, and even arthropods like fleas,lice, ticks, mites and mosquito bite vectors of parasites are species-specific in their ability to cause disease. One mosquito can inject a *cocktail* of parasites and organisms into a human host, or cattle host, or birds, but each host species will only be affected by its species-specific disease. New strains of diseases can and do spontaneously erupt within populations however, both human and in animals. I suspect STDs along with all sorts of other diseases will be with us forever. However, whilst the "why" is unknown, and the "when" - on occasion, organisms will cross-species in its ability to cause disease and symptoms. Assisting a lambing ewe, during milking or manual butchering, can transfer organisms from the sheep to the human helpers hands - the bacteria may not be able to survive on open skin for very long, but may have survived long enough for it to colonise the alimentary tract, and/or uro-genital tract which the bacteria found sufficiently adequate for its survival, or possibly it only needed a small random minor mutation in order for it to adapt to a human host - and subsequent transmission to other human hosts. Mutation of such organisms is much more common, than in large animal species such as ourselves, and hence virulence and mode-of-transmission can change quickly. So-called "killer" influenza viruses, are believed to stem from cross-species migration of viruses. For humans in particular, killer strains are believed to have crossed-species from birds, particularly wild migratory water-fowl along the Chinese/asian pacific rim - and along the eastern Atlantic Mediterranean and African coasts. The bird flu virus transfers to domestic bird-flocks, turkeys/chickens etc - but generally needs to circulate in yet another host species, swine/pigs, before it can effectively transfer to humans to cause disease. Since this virus contains segments of DNA/RNA from birds, pigs and humans - there is inadequate immunity, and hence causes massive death tolls. Since the 1960s, world-wide 'sentinel' posts, monitor closely the health of birds and pigs, particularly in places such as Hong Kong and Spain. Bacteria, viruses and insect arthropod vectors can mutate very quickly within a generation or two - this is why we can never really be immune to colds and flu - they mutate slightly every season - so while we retain some immunity from our last infection - the next one will still make us feel ill, the more the virus has mutated, the more seriously ill we will feel. This also is the reason, why infants and young children, and the elderly, will often be more severely affected than healthy young adults - and also, why flu vaccines have to be changed every year. > >Trichomoniasis is a condition where Trichomonas is an organism of the >normal flora in certain areas (and in small numbers) >of the female reproductive tract that >finds its way to other tissues...sort of an "opportunistic" >infection. The same is true of Candida (yeast). Candida is also a natural inhabitant of the lower gastro-intestinal tract and anus etc. Opportunistic infections can transfer easily in both men and women from the rectum etc. This is often the case with the use of antibiotics, whereby not only the offending bacteria is killed off, as in a lung infection, or a sore throat etc - but will also kill off other GIT microflora, and microflora in the uro-genital tracts, encouraging the over-growth of some organisms which only cause disease when "out-of-balance". Infants and toddlers, being less conscious of where they put their fingers etc - often transfer candida to their mouth and suffer painful mouth infections of oral candidiasis. Many such infections, of a large array of organisms can infect the upper reproductive tracts of women, without causing any symptoms, and/or spontaneously healing very quickly. As people who have had boils, staphylococcal skin infections, or even long-standing facial acne, can attest, even a mild skin infection can leave a scar. So even with symptoms and early treatment, scarring or damage of soft-tissues such as fallopian tubes, uterus or cervix may have occurred, and in men, it is more often the kidneys, bladder etc. Repeated infections over a life-time, can only worsen the damage. In Dreamsnake however, the issue of STD's was not addressed, nor were serious infectious diseases like cholera, typhoid, salmonella etc addressed, it was assumed that preventative measures on cleanliness of water-supplies, food-supplies and herd animals was practised. I can only assume that with a society so lackadaisical in its sexual mores, that either STD's were not endemic to that particular population, or like ensuring clean food and water, was an inherent assumption of their bio-control training during puberty and not worth mentioning - whereas it was in Sheri Teppers' 'Gate to Womens Country' - which not only recognised the danger of STD's but also enforced quarantine practices on all "itinerants" for all sorts of transmissable diseases. Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:26:23 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: BDG: Dreamsnake--Cultural incorporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Given the choice (and means), which cultural, biological, sociological aspects from the societies we visited in _Dreamsnake_ would you choose to incorporate into your own culture? Why? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:18:14 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: BDG: Dreamsnake--best cover design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I remember from previous discussion that the cover of the Dutch edition of Dreamsnake (_Droomslang_) was not one of Ms. McIntyre's favorites. http://www.sff.net/people/vonda/Droomslang.html The cover of the paperback I got in the mid '80's was not much better. The woman featured looked a cross between an appalachian snake handler and Cleopatra. (How many different cover designs have there been? Do hard copies have jackets which differ from the current paperback cover?) Anyway, the cover of my newest copy (Bantam-Spectra) is rather good. I get the feeling that the designer actually read the novel. :) In fact, it was when I was looking at the cover recently that reminded me of something in the book that touched me. When Jesse, Merideth and Alex are spending their last few minutes alone, Snake outside, looking at the sky. When the clouds part, Snake can see stars. She wishes someone were there to share it with her. Such a simple pleasure which Snake's ancestors made so rare. . . Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: BDG: Dreamsnake--Cultural incorporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0088_01BD6CF2.43A95C20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01BD6CF2.43A95C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <> =20 Easy. A culture where a woman, alone, can pursue her studies, = apprentice her chosen profession, become a master and then easily be = able to support oneself in the practice of said profession; to do this = while traveling the _globe_ without needing to fear for ones safety = anymore than the dangers of the environment may require; and without = bearing internalized guilt or externalized condemnation for not bearing = young or being constantly demanded to neglect personal desires for a = companion's well being vice one's own....... I would be well pleased by those things. donna ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01BD6CF2.43A95C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <<Given=20 the choice (and means), which cultural, biological, = sociological
aspects=20 from the societies we visited in _Dreamsnake_ would you choose
to = incorporate into your own culture? =20 Why?

Lindy>>
Easy.=20 A culture where a woman, alone, can pursue her studies, apprentice = her=20 chosen profession,  become a master and then easily be able to = support=20 oneself in the practice of said profession; to do this while = traveling the=20 _globe_ without needing to fear for ones safety anymore than the = dangers of=20 the environment may require;  and without bearing internalized = guilt or=20 externalized condemnation for not bearing young or being constantly = demanded=20 to neglect personal desires for a companion's well being vice one's=20 own....... I=20 would be well pleased by those things. donna ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01BD6CF2.43A95C20-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:09:32 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: cervical cancer > On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: Actually, Penny wrote this: > > > >Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical > > >cancer. > > > > Is this a statistical thing, or is there some specifically causal effect? > > I can bet anything that eventually it will turn out to be the same kind > of "scientific fact" as the "Women who hold full-time jobs become infertile". > > Otherwise, we should expect a big chunk of female generation of 70-s (after > the Pill, before AIDS) to die off, rapidly, pretty soon. :( > > Marina > Cervical cancer is rarely fatal anymore as it is highly detectable and treatable in early stages. It is quite common for women in their 20's to be treated in "pre-cancerous" stages of abnormal cells before they become the big "C" word. (I am one example.) This is what Pap Smears are all about. The statistics, as it turned out, are more related to the Microflora you acqurie and ultimately accomodate during the "transactions". Basically, you can obtain portions of the flora of every previous sex partner your present sex partner has ever slept with. Many diseases may not cause symptoms in some people who can become "carriers". Most mucosal pathogens cannot survive outside its target environment but can hang on for long periods of time in the protective mucosal surfaces of the vagina and cervix (among others), and find a wonderful refuge under the foreskin of the uncircimcized penis. Many cancers of the cervix are caused by one or more pathogens (herpes virus, papilloma virus, and Ureaplasma and Mycoplasma species). These disease-causing organisms have been shown to transform cells from mortal to immortal, causing a change that results in aberrant growth of the cell resulting in a tumor. Truly, women and uncircumsized men are more at risk of these diseases than the circumcized male as it is tougher for the delicate organisms to survive externally on the foreskin than inside on or in the mucosal surfaces. Since the only opening on the circumcized penis is at the tip (unless there is a wound), one quick piss can effectively eliminate SOME pathogens, but others not. Also, it is more difficult for the pathogen to find the mucosal surface (which harbors the receptors necessary for pathogen binding to the host cells) on circumisized penises (peni??) because of the decrease in surface area made available. The actual statistics showed that women carrying one or more of these pathogens were the ones with the highest rate of specific types of cancer cells (known as "dysplasia"), and these women were the ones that fell in the catagory of more than X amount of sex partners (I am uncertain of how many). However, if you could only have sex with one partner and STILL be infected with one or more if you chose a partner that "gets (or got) around". (This is actually more common than one might think.) Another note...off topic...women are at far greater risk of acquiring HIV infection in heterosexual sex...the odds are (approximately) man:woman, 90%, woman:man, 10%. Penny ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:02:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a thought: perhaps Snake and her contemporaries are less fixed on sexual intercourse than we are. Much of the talk about cervical cancer and STDs in this discussion has assumed that anyone engaging in "sex" is having intercourse, but I don't recall that this was assumed in the book (though it has been several months since I read it & I am hazy on the descriptive details). It seems logical, given how common bisexuality is in this future world, that people would have a greater repertoire of sexual behaviors to choose from & it definitely seems that they are better educated about sexuality. When you consider how many diseases can be avoided by minimizing direct contact between genitalia, perhaps these folks would rely more on other, equally as pleasant, activities. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC - English Settlement "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:31:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs In-Reply-To: <353CA701.F7208930@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > Just a thought: perhaps Snake and her contemporaries are less fixed on > sexual intercourse than we are. Much of the talk about cervical cancer > and STDs in this discussion has assumed that anyone engaging in "sex" is > having intercourse, but I don't recall that this was assumed in the book > (though it has been several months since I read it & I am hazy on the > descriptive details). It seems logical, given how common bisexuality is > in this future world, that people would have a greater repertoire of > sexual behaviors to choose from & it definitely seems that they are > better educated about sexuality. When you consider how many diseases can > be avoided by minimizing direct contact between genitalia, perhaps these > folks would rely more on other, equally as pleasant, activities. I don't think so. Control of fertility is so important that it is obvious to me that intercourse is the definition of what was going on. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice E. Dawley wrote: >...perhaps Snake and her contemporaries are less fixed on >sexual intercourse than we are. And Joel VanLaven wrote: >I don't think so. Control of fertility is so important that it is >obvious to me that intercourse is the definition of what was going on. Oh, H-E-double-hockey-sticks... you're right. I must've been projecting what I WISH McIntyre had said onto the text; I really should have skimmed it over again before posting. Sorry. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC - English Settlement "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:19:41 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs >When you consider how many diseases can be avoided by minimizing >direct contact between genitalia, perhaps these folks would rely more on >other, equally as pleasant, activities. However, they appear nonetheless careful to make sure of their 'biocontrol' against unwanted conception! This doesn't however mean they are only 'doing' penetration: those skittish little sperms can get quite a long way if you're not careful; or at least, that was always the Awful Warning being given in the 50s about 'heavy petting'. Better safe than sorry.... Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com