Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9805B" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 04:50:06 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Melnjo Subject: Re: FSSF - Imagined sexual futures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Jenny, et al; In a message dated 5/7/98 9:39:55 PM, you wrote: <> Don't think you can blame Elisa for this one; I believe I brought up the subject of including DOACD in a bibliography of Homosexual SF. If Elisa made a post about it, I missed it. Call me an unrepentant sentimentalist. I love Mercedes Lackey's work, often enjoy Anne Mc Caffrey's (although the sexism does make my teeth curl - into fangs, in case you're wondering) and I adored "Daughters of a Coral Dawn". Then again, I learned to suspend my disbelief in the days before there were women authors of SF (in my library, anyway); when all SF was considered pulp fiction and before there were female characters (other than Stepford wife robot types -who always got killed in the first chapter). Feminism was nonexistant in SF. If you can point me in the direction of well written lesbian SF (preferably feminist), I'd appreciate it. If you can write it, please do, I'd love to read it. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many authors out on that limb beside Joanna Russ, Monique Wittig and Elizabeth Lynn. Nor have I seen any major publishing houses out there with Naiad, Rising Tide Press and the other lesbian "pulp" publishers. Given the current trends in publishing and book marketing we may not see a great deal more of either feminist or lesbian SF of any quality published, unless it's by small presses. Of course, they're going out of business at an alarming rate, as are feminist and independent bookstores. IMHO, it behooves us to support small bookstores and presses; while demanding better quality from them. Otherwise, the type of literature we want to read may soon be a quaint 20th century artifact. Mary-Ellen Crystal Mist Glass Carving Guffey, CO ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:31:21 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Info Subject: UNSCRIBE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Please remove us from the mailing list. Info@ftr.co.uk Thank you ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:08:08 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: male prof salaries (Swedish study) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Some months back in Nature the result of a Swedish study >on the evaluation of government grant proposal in (I think) medical >research was published [snip] They >counted number of publications and weighted them by the importance of >the journal (somethere a ranking list of journals is published >annually and they used that). In a last step they also included how >often the papers were cited. Then they did a correlation analysis >between success of applicant and the weighted publications number. I saw a television program about this some months back. What I found particularly disheartening was the response (according to the program) of the Swedish academic community: not shock at the results and rallying cries for change, but abhorrence (how DARE those women make such a thing PUBLIC)! -Sharon Clark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:51:25 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: FSSF - Imagined sexual futures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny R > > Anybody else got any opinions about DOACD or sentimentality in women's > fiction? Wrote something on this, read on, found everyone else had said it better than me. Oscar, of course, said it best of all. Just about my favourite quote ever (which he puts in the mouth of a sentimental woman writer, describing her own novel) : 'The good end happily, and the bad unhappily - that's what fiction means' It seems such a light-hearted bit of fluff, a critique of late-victorian writing, but it is actually a desperately sad and cynical comment isn't it? Alison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:21:02 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: 'man' in German, was: "equal socities" in SF In-Reply-To: <35513CCC.EA13036@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am late on this topic but as I am one of the few German speakers posting on this list I have the urge to comment on this. Tracy MacShane wrote: > By the way, both French and German have third-person singular > non-gendered pronouns: "on" and "man", respectively. On 7 May 98 , Lilith wrote: > I took both languages in high school (many years ago) and only > vaguely remembered these terms being mentioned in passing. Maybe > because they were a) supposed to be either "literary" or slang > terms, b) obscure (well, "man" was right there in my German > dictionary so maybe not), or c) nobody really wanted to emphasize > that there was a non-gendered way of referring to a person. I'm > hoping they were just considered "literary" (i.e., for written work > not everyday speech) terms. On 6 May 98 , Kendra Smith wrote: > It can be both: 'On' in French is used as English speaking people > say "one." The same is true for the German 'man', which is a third person singular pronoun. 'Man macht das' = 'One does that', etc. It is not used to refer to someone specific in a non-gendered way but to say something impersonal. 'man' could not replace 'per' in _Woman on the Edge of Time_ or could not solve the problem with 'he' in _Left Hand of Darkness_. 'man' is neither literary nor slang and certainly not obscure. 'man' is pronounced like 'Mann' (= man (male)). In the last 20-25 years it has often been replaced by 'mensch' (= human being) or 'frau' (= woman) by feminists. Some mean this in a playful way, some mean it serious. And lots of people feel attacked by that. I have read quite a few newspaper articles in which linguists (male and female) explain that 'man' has a completely different history than 'Mann' and derives from ... (can't remember what). About 'on' in French. As I remember from French at school it is often used instead of 'nous' (we). I had a lot of difficulties figuring out in which cases. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:55:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: FSSF - Imagined sexual futures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I read Daughters and loved it. Even though I agree with a lot of your comments - the writing isn't the best - its still fun escapist fluff and very enjoyable. I don't mind sentimentality/romance as long as it makes sense in terms of the plot and the characters. Re: Lackey - she had been one of my favorite writers for a while - but her works have gotten so formulaic and preachy that I've pretty much given up on them - It seems that many of the characters could be traded from book to book with out any change in the plot. There also seems to be a trend now (it could have been for a while) that when an author writes a series - instead of giving the characters distinct adventures - with new ones in the next book - they simply reach a certain page number or word count, put down their pen and publish that section - no closure - no nothing. McCaffrey latest is like that _Freedom's Landing_? - it just stops. IMHO Sheryl > i all, > > I just noticed Elisa's post about Katherine Forrest's "Daughters of a > Coral > Dawn'. > It is full of wonderful examples of how to write badly. I reread bits > of > it occasionally when I think my own writing is getting sloppy, overly > rhetorical, pedantic or sentimental, to get myself back on track. I > wouldn't include it on any list of imagined sexual futures or anything > else > without a huge rider to its total lack of imagination and terrible > quality. > > > KF went on to write some reasonable detective fiction which I have > enjoyed, > although the sentimentality still comes through occasionally. This is > a > trait I strongly dislike (in case you hadn't guessed) and which I find > common in some feminist fiction. Anne McAffery (sp?) and Mercedes > Lackey > are two examples. > > Anybody else got any opinions about DOACD or sentimentality in women's > fiction? > > Jenny R > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: They versus he/she--was Re: "equal socities" in SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 7 May 1998, Marina wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 1998, ME Hunter wrote: > > > Marina wrote: > > > > >It seems that English is getting there, too, by using the word "they". > > >Like, in "each _person_ must take responsibility for their _actions_". Even > > >though it's against the traditional English grammar, you can often see > > >"they", "their", "them" used in relation to a singular third person of > > >non-specified gender. > > > > English has pretty much always done this, as far as I can tell. It's just > > one of those stupid things grammar mavens like to go on about which has > > nothing to do with the way the language is actually spoken. It's not a > > pronoun/antecedent situation, it's a variable/quantifier exercise. > > > > Stephen Pinker has a very coherent explanation of this from a linguistic > > perspective in _The Language Instinct_. > > You are probably right. But I had never seen this used until I came to > US, and it's definitrly not the way they teach you English in the schools > abroad -- you can't say "their" with a "person", just as you will never > see the "his/her" construct. That's why I figured it was new. > > Marina As one of those "grammar mavens" who always used to correct my students' "they"s to "he or she," I have to admit that I no longer do so most of time. Although it will always sound bad to me, I recognize the social value of using "they" instead of an automatic "he" and the stylistic value of using "they" instead of an awkward (particularly if repeated) "he or she." What still raises my grammarian's hackles, however, is students who write sentences where they use the "they" unnecessarily, as in "The girl went looking for their book, although they knew that it was probably lost" or "Each girl knew their place in line." Aieee! Mike Levy (crochetty grammarian) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:14:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: OT - CHILDREN OF GOD Comments: To: Suzette Haden Elgin , Lois Bujold Fandom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I inhaled it in one night and it's marvelous. But I woke up this morning with one word in my mind's ear: "Cattle." Which expanded into "If you're dealing with a cannibal race (defined as anyone who eats other sentients), check into their meat supply and try to sell them or give them non-sentient alternatives. If the Runa can set up as farmers, the jana'ata can set up as ranchers! "Oh, the Runa and Jana'ata should be friends...." Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: OT - CHILDREN OF GOD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I inhaled it in one night and it's marvelous. I agree, but it took me more than one night. :-) > If the Runa can set up as farmers, the jana'ata can set up as ranchers! Unless I missed something (quite possible), that's what Han'ala(?)'s group were trying to do. They weren't having much luck because of the climate. Hmm... Well, I guess they were hunting as opposed to ranching... I wonder why... Perhaps because ranching might lead to genetic manipulation which might lead to the eventual rise of more sentient cattle? > "Oh, the Runa and Jana'ata should be friends...." Isn't that the question? Can the Runa be friends with the Jana'ata? Can they (as a group) forgive the Jana'ata (as a group)? That question is one that I've been wondering about in relation to current (real world) politics. -allen -- Allen Briggs - briggs@ninthwonder.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:56:49 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: OT - CHILDREN OF GOD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm really sorry, this question has probably been answered altready, but is 'Children of God' the same novel as 'The Sparrow', or a sequel or something? Alison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:55:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: OT - CHILDREN OF GOD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I'm really sorry, this question has probably been answered altready, but is > 'Children of God' the same novel as 'The Sparrow', or a sequel or > something? I'm sorry. Yes, it's a sequel. Recently out in hardcover in the US. The author (for those who don't know 'The Sparrow') is Mary Doria Russell. It's definitely SF, and I'd say it does have feminist aspects. It definitely explores gender (and other) roles. 'The Sparrow' won the Tiptree last year, I believe. -allen -- Allen Briggs - briggs@ninthwonder.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: OT - CHILDREN OF GOD In-Reply-To: <894639271.1026963.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 May 1998, Alison Page wrote: > > I'm really sorry, this question has probably been answered altready, but is > 'Children of God' the same novel as 'The Sparrow', or a sequel or > something? > It's the sequel to THE SPARROW. Many of the same characters. Some new ones.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:06:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human and the evil of sex In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 7 May 1998, Stacey Holbrook wrote: > I was more troubled by the revelation that Galele was a pedophile. Why was > this necessary? There could have been any number of reasons why a man > would be willing to leave his world behind but why this particular reason? > It really seemed unfair to the character of Galele and wasn't really > necessary for moving the story along. Am I the only one bothered by this? Galele's pedophilia is consistant with Gilman's portryal throughout the book of sex as something if not evil than at least negative and of Tedla's non-sexual neuter status as a condition giving him truer insights into emotions, especially love. She makes the point several times that Tedla sees sex as something that gets in the way between people. For instance, on p.255 it says, "For you humans, the sexual part is so powerful it drowns out everything else. You can't imagine love could take over you whole being, even without it." As for the societies where people do have sex, we can choose between Gammadis where sex is portrayed alternatively as banal hedonism or as rape, or we can choose Capella Two where everyone overanalyzes what emotions they do have and true feeling is abandoned in favor of the worship of knowledge. The only time sex is portrayed as something positive is toward the end when Val tells her husband that she is glad that they can have children and that she'd be willing to do it again - that is, the only time sex can do something good is if it is for procreation. Val does argue occasionally with Tedla on this point, especially near the end when Tedla clumsily tries to seduce her into not abandoning it, but this is a faint glimmer of hope against the rest of the novel, and even there Tedla just switches to appealing to Val's "maternal instinct." This sexual conservativism and implicit physical loathing is just one more reason why I didn't like the book. At the moment I can think of two works of some relevance that are much better. The same idea is presented by the asexual character Akili in Greg Egan's _Distress_, but Egan implies that the real obstacle to true love is the illusion of intimacy and that sex is just one factor of many in that. I definitely prefer Theodore Sturgeon's _Venus Plus X_ where the elimination of gender does not mean the elimination of sexual activity - gender is the obstacle and not sex. -John Bertland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 7 May 1998, Stacey Holbrook wrote: > I also thought the ending was a bit of a cop out. I was hoping for a > really tragic and depressing ending full of dark despair and pathos. A > downbeat ending would have been more appropriate. Well, I'm not sure the ending had to be a tragic one, but I still thought it was a bit of a cop out. It seems to be constrained by three things: 1) the need to show just how awful and evil the infocompanies on Capella Two are, 2) the need to strike one final blow at cultural relativism, for which Gilman has an obvious distaste, and 3) the worst of all, the need to leave it open for a sequel. If you send Tedla back under lock and key it will just be used as an example to break the spirit of the other blands. If you send it back on its own terms, then you have a book. -John Bertland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:32:43 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: book identification? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm sending this in case my first message didn't get through for some reason. So delete if it's a duplicate. Many thanks to Lesley, Lindy, Donna and everyone else for their help and information. I think it probably was Ardath Mayhar. Now I only hope I can find more of her books!;) Monica >I think this may be _Soulsinger_ by, as far as I recollect (It does not appear >to be any longer on my shelves) Ardath Mayhar. >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:40:01 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: "equal socities" in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Didn't I read somewhere that the convention of using 'he' in the neutral sense only started sometime in 15th/16th Century England, when some (male) grammarians were trying to 'standardise' thing? And that until this point, they, their, etc. was used as the singular neutral third person? MOnica >Marina wrote: > >>It seems that English is getting there, too, by using the word "they". >>Like, in "each _person_ must take responsibility for their _actions_". Even >>though it's against the traditional English grammar, you can often see >>"they", "their", "them" used in relation to a singular third person of >>non-specified gender. > >English has pretty much always done this, as far as I can tell. It's just >one of those stupid things grammar mavens like to go on about which has >nothing to do with the way the language is actually spoken. It's not a >pronoun/antecedent situation, it's a variable/quantifier exercise. > >Stephen Pinker has a very coherent explanation of this from a linguistic >perspective in _The Language Instinct_. > >E. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:49:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Shirkey Subject: Re: OT -- grammar -- Re: "equal socities" in SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 May 1998, M.J.Norman wrote: > Didn't I read somewhere that the convention of using 'he' in the neutral > sense only started sometime in 15th/16th Century England, when some > (male) grammarians were trying to 'standardise' thing? And that until > this point, they, their, etc. was used as the singular neutral third > person? Now, it's been a few years since I took Old English, but I'm pretty sure you're right. English used to be a declined language, similar in that respect to Latin. It did have a gender neutral third person singular. Since I mainly translated a lot of poems and riddles, I don't have a good sense of how often this particular third person singular pronoun might have been used to refer to people. In Latin, I believe, the masculine third person singular pronoun was default, and there's no telling how much (first) those wack Romans and (later) those wacky Latin teachers influenced the evolution of spoken and written English. (Our English grammar texts are, after all, still heavily influenced by the organization and content of Latin grammars. Highly illogical, I know, but it's where some of our illogical grammar rules began.) The other thing that occurred around 15th/16th C. England is the development of a dominant dialect of English due to fiscal/trade success of one particular geographic group. (I can't remember who, specifically, but this process was connected with control of the rivers.) Finally, this is my first post to this group. I get the feeling I should probably have lurked more, but this is one small thing I know something about. I'm a library school student at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign (graduating next weekend! -- anybody need a reference/BI librarian?), with a M.A. in English Lit. from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I grew up in a small working class town in Illinois, and reading science fiction and fantasy saved me from feeling too peculiar, starting in 5th grade. It's continued to be my favorite escape ever since. Thanks for providing a forum for intelligent discussion of feminist science fiction and fantasy issues! Cindy Shirkey Library Systems Office University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:05:38 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: FSSF - Imagined sexual futures >If you can point me in the direction of well written lesbian SF (preferably >feminist) Melissa Scott. Also, recent book by new writer Severna Park, title of which escapes me. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:40:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Bouman Subject: Re: FSSF - Imagined sexual futures In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think it's Hand of Prophecy, haven't read it yet but it looks good. Here's a synopsis: Frenna, a slave on a frontier planet, escapes carrying a valuable secret--three doses of a drug that can cure the virus that has enslaved her people for decades. Abandoned on a violent world, Frenna is pressed into service as a medic. There Frenna becomes involved in an underground movement to free her fellow slaves and then must decide who will be the beneficiaries of her precious doses of the life-saving cure. On Fri, 8 May 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: > >If you can point me in the direction of well written lesbian SF (preferably > >feminist) > > Melissa Scott. Also, recent book by new writer Severna Park, title of which > escapes me. > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:39:47 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: use of "man" in German Content-Type: text/plain > >Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:47:08 -0400 >From: Lilith >Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: "equal socities" in SF [snip] >> By the way, both French and German have third-person singular non-gendered pronouns: "on" and >> "man", respectively. > > >I took both languages in high school (many years ago) and only vaguely remembered these terms being >mentioned in passing. Maybe because they were a) supposed to be either "literary" or slang terms, b) >obscure (well, "man" was right there in my German dictionary so maybe not), or c) nobody really wanted >to emphasize that there was a non-gendered way of referring to a person. I'm hoping they were just >considered "literary" (i.e., for written work not everyday speech) terms. > >Lilith IIRC, "man" in the German language is not particularly literary, but it is not slang either. It is usually used in a somewhat abstract sense, close to the English word "one." "Man spricht Deutsch hier" = (literally) "one speaks German here" a better translation would be, "German is spoken here." An archaic use of "man" is the royal command: "Man gebe dem Hund Wasser" = (literally) "one must give the dog water" I guess you would translate this just as "give the dog some water." I don't think you would ever use "man" to refer to a specific person, my guess is that the translator of "Halfway Human" will just use "es" (=it). Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:20:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: FSSF - Imagined sexual futures In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 May 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: > >If you can point me in the direction of well written lesbian SF (preferably > >feminist) > > Melissa Scott. Also, recent book by new writer Severna Park, title of which > escapes me. > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > Also Nicola Griffith's Slow River, a Nebula Award winner, and Joanna Russ's We Who Are About To... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:44:46 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-05-07 11:59:16 EDT, you write: << I also thought the ending was a bit of a cop out. I was hoping for a really tragic and depressing ending full of dark despair and pathos. A downbeat ending would have been more appropriate. >> Is this true? The ending is not depressing and dark? Then perhaps I will finish reading it after all! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:50:59 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: "equal socities" in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-05-07 17:16:13 EDT, you write: << You are probably right. But I had never seen this used until I came to US, and it's definitrly not the way they teach you English in the schools abroad -- you can't say "their" with a "person", just as you will never see the "his/her" construct. That's why I figured it was new. >> This usage doesn't bother me in spoken English, but I still hate it in written English. I still feel the "they" as a plural. But now I can't handle "he" to refer to any person, either! I recast many sentences to avoid the whole issue. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 23:04:36 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: "He" and "she" artificial life forms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-05-08 13:16:37 EDT, you write: << If you send Tedla back under lock and key it will just be used as an example to break the spirit of the other blands. If you send it back on its own terms, then you have a book. >> As I read this post, I thought for the first time about the fact that in the "Measure of a Man" episode of TNG, Dr. Maddox referred to Data as "it" while insisting that Data was only a machine, but when he accepted Data as a sentient being he shifted to "he." And Data's daughter was a "she" even though it was apparently only a matter of packaging. If Lal had chosen one of the male configurations for her body, would she have tried kissing Deanna instead of Will? How male was Data's point of view?? barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 23:08:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: OT -- grammar -- Re: "equal socities" in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-05-08 15:00:49 EDT, you write: << (Our English grammar texts are, after all, still heavily influenced by the organization and content of Latin grammars. Highly illogical, I know, but it's where some of our illogical grammar rules began.) >> It's my understanding that John Donne was responsible for much of this. He assumed that Latin was a superior language, being older and therefore closer to the Adamic language. That's where we get the concept of not ending sentences with prepositions, even though it's natural to do so in Germanic languages. This is an outrage up with which I will not put, as someone said. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 00:33:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Jost Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii John and Stacey have referred to Tedla's statement that there are blands in all societies ... Was Tedla referring specifically to "neuters", or was it speaking more broadly and suggesting that the oppressed "other" could be found in all forms of social organisation?? When I read that passage I thought the latter, but on reflection perhaps Tedla had both in mind. I too was intrigued - but chilled - at Gilman's concept of an information society where even academics have to buy research/information. But I was even more chilled when I considered that this is not so alien to my own situation - I am a consultant, businesses pay for my knowledge, it is all I have to sell. I don't think that the way I earn my income today differs significantly from the way Val earns hers, so maybe western society is already closer to Gilman's vision than we would care to admit??? Ruth PS Thanks so much to Donna Simone who kindly got a copy of the novel to me down here in the southern hemisphere in time for me to read and comment!! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:20:10 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: OT -- grammar -- Re: "equal socities" in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What a shame - I rather like Donne.:) I think it was Churchill who said that, by the way. MOnica ><< (Our English > grammar texts are, after all, still heavily influenced by the organization > and content of Latin grammars. Highly illogical, I know, but it's where > some of our illogical grammar rules began.) >> > >It's my understanding that John Donne was responsible for much of this. He >assumed that Latin was a superior language, being older and therefore closer >to the Adamic language. That's where we get the concept of not ending >sentences with prepositions, even though it's natural to do so in Germanic >languages. This is an outrage up with which I will not put, as someone said. > >barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:52:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: male/female behavior (was male prof salaries) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 7 May 1998, Marina wrote: (in part) > > Going back to that discussion of how people assign gender: I had a lot > of people suspecting me of being transsexual just because I don't "act > like a girl" (whatever in the Hell that means). "Have you always been a > female?" -- half-joking tone and a cautious look :) It's funny, but it > seems that behavior is a lot more important in this than appearance. > Because I look anything but "butch". I'm a lot more of Julia Roberts > type - pale, skinny, and helpless-looking (can't stand Julia Roberts!). > However, when I start talking, it somehow scares people a lot more than > the muscular buzz-cut women with big fists speaking up. > Remember that scene from Aliens II, where the guy says to the Marine as she's doing chin-ups: "Have you ever been mistaken for a man?" and she says "No, have you?" - the best part of a movie that should have left the original alone. Kathleen (who thinks your experience in computer science class was outrageous but all too common) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:07:34 -0700 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human and the evil of sex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Bertland wrote: > Galele's pedophilia is consistant with Gilman's portryal throughout the > book of sex as something if not evil than at least negative and of > Tedla's non-sexual neuter status as a condition giving him truer > insights into emotions, especially love. She makes the point several > times that Tedla sees sex as something that gets in the way between > people. I don't read the portrayal of sex vis-a-vis Tedla in this way at all. While on the one hand Gilman is showing us in great detail how the economically exploited person lacking real free will & social equality is necessarily unable to either refuse or consent to sexual relations, on the other hand she's making the point that sexuality is NOT a matter of sexual organs. Among the Gammadians, being neutered is not the same as being genderless-- for neuter *is* a gender. (As one learns in first-year Latin.) Nor is it-- despite the frequent use in the novel of the word-- necessarily to be "asexual" except in the strict, anatomical sense of the adjective. Tedla claims to be asexual, claims to be "misread" by sexed "humans," but in fact is implicated in using the *constructedness* of sexuality-- demosntrating that being "sexed" is not solely a matter of having sexual organs. Yes, much of the sex is forced on Tedla. But sex is written on its experience, and its movements & its personal modes of interaction. We see that when Tedla comes on to Val. In other words, Gilman shows us that sexuality & sexed-ness is as constructed as gender is. The latter is more obvious to us (since we're used to the idea)-- such that it's easy to see how the construction of otherness that is usually located in women in our societies is located in the "blands" among Gammadians (thus allowing Gammadian women to be like men in their subjectivity & social & ideological positionings). I think it's a mistake to take Tedla's insistence on being "asexual" at its word. Yes, it has been sexualized-- but then sexuality is never-- among humans-- simply "natural" & "essential;" rather it's always inflected with the social imaginary. Timmi Duchamp http://www.halcyon.com/ltimmel/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:26:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: Re: OT --grammar -- Re: "equal societies" in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 May 1998, Cynthia Shirkey wrote: >The other thing that occurred around 15th/16th C. England >is the development of a dominant dialect of English due >to fiscal/trade success of one particular geographic >group. (I can't remember who, specifically, but this >process was connected with control of the rivers.) Actually a dominant dialect of English occurred earlier than that. Starting in the 14th century, English began to become standardized, after a long period of lacking a standard literary dialect due to the prestige of Latin and French in England. Latin was the language of the Church, of scholarship, of international communication, and of administration. The Norman Conquest of 1066 made French the language of the nobility, the upper classes, and those wishing to rise in society. There was, from the time of conquest to the 14th century, a lack of written literature in English. Chaucer wrote in what was to become the standard language-- the East Midland dialect. The East Midland area was important in English cultural, economic, and administrative life, as well as home to Cambridge University. The East Midland dialect, moreover, was the basis of London speech. And London was the seat of the government and the cultural center of England. The process of standardizing literary English was largely complete by the end of the 15th century. ------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 8 May 1998, M.J.Norman wrote: > Didn't I read somewhere that the convention of using 'he' in the neutral > sense only started sometime in 15th/16th Century England, when some > (male) grammarians were trying to 'standardise' thing? And that until > this point, they, their, etc. was used as the singular neutral third > person? One improvement in form occured in Early Modern English, with the introduction of "its" as possessive of "it". Before then, the possessive form of "it" was "his"! I have, for years, made it a practice NEVER to use the generic "he". When writing academic papers, I use "s/he" and "his/her", but it gets a bit awkward when it comes to "himself"/"herself". ------------------------------------------------------------- << On Fri, 8 May 1998, Cynthia Shirkey wrote: << (Our English <> >It's my understanding that John Donne was responsible for much of this. He >assumed that Latin was a superior language, being older and therefore closer >to the Adamic language. That's where we get the concept of not ending >sentences with prepositions, even though it's natural to do so in Germanic >languages. This is an outrage up with which I will not put, as someone said. > >barbara I don't know the particulars of sentence construction similarities to Latin (never having taken Latin), but I do know that the first grammars--there were a couple of short ones published in the late 16th century--and dictionaries of English date largely from the 17th century. Fourteen grammars of English were published in the 17th century and a flood of them in the 18th. These grammars were deeply influenced by traditional grammars of Latin. They also had an overt class bias --they were produced for the gentry (about 10% of the population)--as well as a regional bias. And, of course, these grammarians were male. -Sharon Clark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:20:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Almost Human In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edrie Sobstyl wrote: I hope our discussions of Tedla's "itness" don't compell you to avoid the book, Lilith! It is more a consciousness-raising device than an alienating one, imho, although it is clearly alienating *for Tedla*. Tedla *is* shown as a strong and vital character, *and* as the victim of circumstance and bad people -- it's the tension between the two that forms the backbone of the plot. edrie ------ You know, I haven't got much more than halfway through Halfway Human, and I'm having trouble picking it up again. Not because of the discussions of "itness", or even that aspect of the story. It's interesting to watch myself squirm back and forth between he/she since I have no human reference for "it". My problem with the book is that it's just so depressing and disturbing, and quite frankly, it doesn't seem well enough written to make that worthwhile. At least in the first half. The format of Tedla telling its story seems like exposition to me; there's not enough of a plot evolving to make me turn the page for more abuse. I'm surrounded every day in real life by class and gender and race oppression, and subtle (and not so subtle) forms of brainwashing to accept that oppression and use it on myself and others. Really, if I wanted to have that as a central element in what I'm reading, I'd much rather spend time with Toni Morrison. I'll probably keep reading, since hopefully I'm past the worst of the abuse and the plot seems to be picking up a little with Val reading the accounts of the first visit to Tedla's planet. It's just tough going. I voted for the comedy books for the next round. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:13:38 -0500 Reply-To: Stacey Holbrook Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: BDG: Halfway Human (long) In-Reply-To: <000201bd7c38$0e82ae20$727218ce@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I had a fight with my computer last night and lost. I had saved some posts to answer later but my inbox burped and everything disappeared. I'm gonna try and sum up a few thoughts in one post. Someone pointed out that the portrayal of human sexuality in *Halfway Human* was very negative. Tedla is repeatedly raped and abused and even the people who claim to love Tedla don't have any real understanding of Tedla's real self or the serious problems they cause for it. Gammadan society is shown as sexually liberal but the only relationships shown are one's where the individuals are taking advantage of each other (Ovide helps Annika's career and gets a young sexual partner-- an older experienced teacher sponsoring a younger student seems to be a common arrangement on Gammadis). Someone else pointed out that most of Tedla's sexual partners were male. It was very disturbing to me to see that male sexuality was continually portrayed as ugly and shameful. The revelation of Galele's pedophilia was just a little too much for me. I still don't understand why this was necessary unless it was to show, yet again, that male sexuality is disgusting. About the only positive portrayal of human sexuality is a very brief scene where Val tells her husband that she might want to have another child. So IOW, the only "correct" sex is in a monogamous marriage and only for procreation. One of the most interesting things about *Halfway Human* was how everyone perceived Tedla differently according to their prejudices and misconceptions. The humans at Brice's saw Tedla as a piece of meat to be used and treated as a commodity without regard to Tedla's feelings or needs. Tellegen sees Tedla in a romantic and idealistic way-- without realizing that Tedla was not a complete innocent but had been terribly abused. Galele sees Tedla as someone who can further his research and eventually sees Tedla as an unobtainable love object-- without realizing that Tedla would have been amenable to a sexual relationship. None of these people ever really saw the real Tedla. None of them saw that Tedla was emotionally crippled by it's treatment in Gammadan society. I liked Tedla's character and that is the best part of this book-- if Tedla hadn't been so well written I don't think I would have liked this book at all. Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:26:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: 'quality' of lesbian writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One thing that I've had circulating in my mind for some time--have NO idea where it came from--is that true liberation is achieved when formerly oppressed groups have the freedom to be mediocre....let me hastily add that I'm not talking about arguing for any conscious dumbing down or trying for any less than one can, but that in regard to individual performance (whether on the job or a book), members of an oppressed group are under the pressure to excel just to "prove" they have the right to participate. On the political scale, a white male politician can screw up in major ways without anybody raising doubts about whether white men in general should be "allowed" into politics; let a Hispanic woman be indicted for something (as recently happened in Dallas, Texas), and there are suddenly DOUBTS about the fitness of such a minority group to be playing with the big boys. Let a mediocre movie or book or any other art/ifact be produced by the dominant group, and it pretty much goes unchallenged, but "lesbian" or "feminist" or any other labeled text undergoes a good deal of pressure and scrutiny, if only because relatively few of them are produced in any year. Robin in Texas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:25:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Feminism and the Discworld - Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of weeks ago I attempted, albeit _very_ obliquely, to prompt a discussion of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series from a feminist viewpoint. I had also wished to encourage those of you who had never read Pratchett's work to do so. Hopefully, due, no doubt, to several encouraging replies, this has happened. The intended discussion, on the other hand, was conspicuous by its absence. Serves me right for being such a smart-arse; I would very much like to see such a discussion. Whilst I am here I would like to announce a new mailing list. Yesterday saw the birth of Off Topic Today, the mailing list which is, like myself, OTT. Briefly: Please bear in mind that this is Off Topic Today. Members will be warned and/or flamed for being ON topic. Repeat offenders may be hung, drawn and quartered, flogged, tarred and feathered, sold off into slavery, boiled in oil, eviscerated or ejected, depending on my mood. So what is ON topic?. Well you may ask. I will periodically declare a topic ON at the request of none or more members. My call. Initially there is only one ON topic, World Cup football. So what is OFF topic? Well, you know all those discussions which got cut off in their prime? Yup, them's the ones. Just remember, if it got thrown off another list for being off-topic then bring it here. It will probably be at home. To subscribe send a message to list-thing@catweasel.org with the subject OTT-subscribe (your name). Trust me, I'm a list-thing. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:56:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Books selected for next round of discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for voting for the next six books we'll discuss. Here are the books you selected, in alphabetical order by title: Kristine Kathryn Rusch: Alien Influences Publisher: Bantam Spectra; Publication Date: December 1997; List price: US-$5,99, ISBN: 0553569988 UK: Publisher: Millennium Books; Publication Date: June 1995 Candas Jane Dorsey: Black Wine Publisher: Tor; Publication Date: January 1998; List price: US-$13.95; ISBN: 0312865783 Marion Zimmer Bradley: The Mists of Avalon Publisher: Del Rey; Publication Date: July 1987; List price: US-$14.00; ISBN: 0345350499 Melissa Scott: Shadow Man Publisher: Tor; Publication Date: December 1996; List price: US-$13.95; ISBN: 0312862067 Joan D. Vinge: The Snow Queen Publisher: Warner Books; Publication date: 1992, List price: US-$5.99, ISBN: 0445205296 Mary Doria Russell: The Sparrow Publisher: Fawcett Books (Ballantine Reader's Circle), Publication date: September 1997, List price: US-$12.00; ISBN: 0449912558 Ordinarily we would start off with Alien Influences in June. However, there isn't much time to get and read the book before then, so I'd like to ask those who want to participate but have more trouble getting the book if there's another on the list that is easier to obtain (or that you already have). I suspect the easiest to find might be Mists of Avalon. If a significant number of you contact me today or tomorrow and say one book is much easier to find, we'll read that one first. Otherwise we'll start with Alien Influences. I'll send another email with the actual reading order by Wednesday. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:09:42 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Is 1/2way human about gender? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I finished it, despite my whining about too much anthropology and too little plot. Things eventually started happening and I got into the story. I still think she could have written this without quite that much torture or abuse. After finishing it I have some questions not answered in the story: 1. Why wasn't Tedla made "human"? I think someone asked this question before. Mistake? Or too great a need for blands? As someone else mentioned, did they need more pretty ones? Of course, Gilman needed a more intelligent bland to drive the story. At first, I thought that Tedla was left neuter by error. After finishing the book, I wonder if increasing demand for blands was causing them to allow higher intelligence levels, which would inevitably result in a Tedla (e.g. agent of change). 2. Was Tedla really more intelligent than other blands? I'm not sure about this. Could it be that it was just exposed to the right events and people to develop as it did? Some parts of the book made it seem like Tedla was incapable of handling abstract concepts, although that's clearly not the case based on its later success at the Capellan university. Popular belief held that blands lose intelligence after nine months, but Gilman implied that was just a result of brainwashing, and Tedla managed to stave off or overcome that brainwashing. 3. Is biological gender a requirement for being human? Clearly the author doesn't think so, and it seemed repugnant to me to say Tedla wasn't human. But gender is really tied up in our concept of person, and it's hard to imagine one without gender, even ambiguous gender. The trick is to separate gender from intelligence, something the Gammadians seemed unable to do. 4. Was this story about gender? At first it seemed that way. But near the end, Tedla points out to Val (as was discussed here already) the Capellan "grayspace", filled with blands of both genders. And it's true, none of the bad things that happened to blands really had anything to do with their lack of gender. Was the story really about class, then? Or about any "other" that can be dehumanized and brainwashed and enslaved. 5. For the group: if you tended to think of Tedla as gendered, which one and more importantly, why? I tended to think of Tedla, and most of the blands, as male. I'm having trouble figuring out why. I don't think it was the cover art, which I agree looks male. The only bland I thought of as female was the crazy coven leader. I hate to think what kind of internalized messages led me to those assumptions. It will be interesting to compare this take on alternate "gender" with Scott's Shadow Man. Instead of framing the story around gender (or class) repression, Shadow Man seemed to me to be more about repression based on sexual preference. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:36:26 +0000 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: BDG: Books selected for next round of discussion In-Reply-To: <000501bd7d06$21ce83e0$657218ce@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 11 May 98 , Jennifer Krauel wrote: > Ordinarily we would start off with Alien Influences in June. > However, there isn't much time to get and read the book before then, > so I'd like to ask those who want to participate but have more > trouble getting the book if there's another on the list that is > easier to obtain (or that you already have). I suspect the easiest > to find might be Mists of Avalon. MoA may be the easiest to find, but it is also well over 1000 pages. people may need more of a heads up for a book of that size. my .02 Rudy Leon who is a SHE (how did that change what you were thinking?) Syracuse University PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:36:26 +0000 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: Feminism and the Discworld - Again In-Reply-To: <3557347A78.03E8CATWEASEL@mail.cableinet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 11 May 98 , Catweasel wrote: > A couple of weeks ago I attempted, albeit _very_ obliquely, to > prompt a discussion of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series from a > feminist viewpoint. I had also wished to encourage those of you who > had never read Pratchett's work to do so. Hopefully, due, no doubt, > to several encouraging replies, this has happened. The intended > discussion, on the other hand, was conspicuous by its absence. > Serves me right for being such a smart-arse; I would very much like > to see such a discussion. Perhaps a little too obliquely. I had no idea what sense to make of what you wrote. It was missing all context whatsoever, including an *authors name* Makes it very hard to follow up on. Rudy Leon who is a SHE (how did that change what you were thinking?) Syracuse University PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:31:53 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: BDG: Books selected for next round of discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It would take me a while to get hold of Alien Influences, but I have The Sparrow and Mists of Avalon, so either of those are possible for me for June. Monica ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:45:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kendra Smith Subject: Re: BDG: Books selected for next round of discussion Comments: To: Jennifer Krauel In-Reply-To: <000501bd7d06$21ce83e0$657218ce@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mists of Avalon would be easiest for me. Already have it, and am too busy this week with exams to hunt for the other. Thanks, Kendra O'Neal Smith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:57:01 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: Feminism and the Discworld - Again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-05-11 13:27:42 EDT, you write: << A couple of weeks ago I attempted, albeit _very_ obliquely, to prompt a discussion of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series from a feminist viewpoint. I had also wished to encourage those of you who had never read Pratchett's work to do so. Hopefully, due, no doubt, to several encouraging replies, this has happened. The intended discussion, on the other hand, was conspicuous by its absence. Serves me right for being such a smart-arse; I would very much like to see such a discussion. >> I have thoroughly enjoyed every Pratchett book I've ever read, but it never occurred to me to read it from a feminist perspective because Pratchett takes on every aspect of human behavior and ridicules it. If he ridicules feminist attitudes, no reason to be offended--he satirizes machismo as well. I seem to remember a bimbo character in the one about making movies in Discworld, but since it was all a parody anyway I didn't care. Here's my favorite feminist joke: Q. How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? A. That's not funny. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:50:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: Re: BDG: Books selected for next round of discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have The Sparrow (had it around since Christmas and haven't had a chance to read it) and The Mists of Avalon is lying in a box somewhere; ditto Vinge. For purely selfish reasons (I won't have time to read the labels on cereal boxes until the end of June, and of the selected books I'm interested in reading Russell, Dorsey, or Alien Influences: all new to me), I'd just as soon the discussion began with Mists of Avalon. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:35:11 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Wiscon? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm delurking to ask who on the list is going to Wiscon Memorial Day weekend? "Real" life has been keeping me busy, so I've been following the book discussions with an eye for finding future reading matter. Hope to see you there in Madison! Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:47:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human In-Reply-To: <19980509073330.28977.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 May 1998, Ruth Jost wrote: > > I too was intrigued - but chilled - at Gilman's concept of an > information society where even academics have to buy > research/information. But I was even more chilled when I considered > that this is not so alien to my own situation - I am a consultant, > businesses pay for my knowledge, it is all I have to sell. I don't > think that the way I earn my income today differs significantly from > the way Val earns hers, so maybe western society is already closer to > Gilman's vision than we would care to admit??? > That culture struck me as being pure academia.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:53:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: [FEMINISTSF Digest - 6 May 1998 to 7 May 1998] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > As penance... I've just finished reading _Shadow's End_ by Sherri S. > Tepper. I really enjoyed the characters, tho I found the eco-parable > theme kinda facile. It spent some time thinking about Saluez' (sp?) > beliefs about how she had sinned/failed and deserved what happened to > her. There are parallels for me between Saluez' views of herself and > Tedla's self-image. These parallels reminded me of how our society > opresses women by teaching us to believe that the oppression, > discrimination and violence we experience is our own fault. > > Anita > > ------------------------------ > > I found this the most compelling idea of Halfway Human. The Blands believed they deserved their opression because they were genetically inferior, unable to participate in the society that they relied upon to think and plan for them. I think Tedla wasn't necessarily more intelligent than the other blands, it just had more opportunity for stimulation of its knowledge base. These beings were not only constantly told they were intellectually and emotionally inferior, they were expected by everyone to be so. How easy it is to fall into such a self fulfilling prophesy. Haven't we all said really stupid things on occasion or reacted quite unemotionally in a situation that seemed to provoke emotions in those around us. If in these cases we were always told such responses were evidence of our true character, we would be likely to develop that "true" character. Add to that the horrible punishments for acting atypically that I think most of us didn't enjoy reading, and we see ho!w beings similar to those of the "upper" or human class could become bland. I just finished reading a book that alas is not science fiction. It's _Life For Me Ain't Been No Crystal Stair_ by Susan Sheehan and chronicals several generations of foster children and welfare recipients. It appears quite possible to create a society full of whatever unpleasant characteristics one would want to avoid. I think I'm ready to read about creating a society of fulfilled beings now. Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:03:42 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Feminism and the Discworld - Again In-Reply-To: <5dd6fa96.3557ba7e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:57 P 11/05/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-05-11 13:27:42 EDT, you write: > ><< > A couple of weeks ago I attempted, albeit _very_ obliquely, to prompt a > discussion of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series from a feminist > viewpoint. I had also wished to encourage those of you who had never > read Pratchett's work to do so. Hopefully, due, no doubt, to several > encouraging replies, this has happened. The intended discussion, on the > other hand, was conspicuous by its absence. Serves me right for being > such a smart-arse; I would very much like to see such a discussion. > >> >I have thoroughly enjoyed every Pratchett book I've ever read, but it never >occurred to me to read it from a feminist perspective because Pratchett takes >on every aspect of human behavior and ridicules it. If he ridicules feminist >attitudes, no reason to be offended--he satirizes machismo as well. I seem to >remember a bimbo character in the one about making movies in Discworld, but >since it was all a parody anyway I didn't care. > I have to agree - I have never thought of Pratchett's Discworld series being overtly feminist (or any other form of *ism* for that matter) - as I have been reading them most of my adult life ( certainly prolific) and I see them as delightfully satirical humour, a good fun rip-snorting laughing read for a rainy Sunday afternoon etc..of which nothing is considered too *sacred* to be laughed at - reminiscent of the absurdity of Monty Python humour, or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series, or the Goodies, or even the Young Ones, or one of my favourite television 'sci-fi' shows of all time _Red Dwarf_:)) Even the suggestion of having a serious discussion of feminism wrt Discworld, sends me into convulsions of chuckles - one a vision of the Ankh-Moorpoork "ladies of the night" serving custard in secrecy and shame, of the back-alleys to their "clients" :) Also - I count around 3 dozen titles still in print on my local bookstore's shelves, not to mention a whole cottage-industry of memorabilia, "Dictionaries" and spin-offs - including two very popular CD-ROM games......where would you start? Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au __________________________________________________________________ | | | FATAL ERROR! | | | | Reality.sys Corrupt! Reboot UNIVERSE to correct | | | |________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:32:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: BDG: Is 1/2way human about gender? In-Reply-To: <000601bd7d07$f933b340$657218ce@jennifer.actioneer.com> from "Jennifer Krauel" at May 11, 98 11:09:42 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks! I joined the list not too long ago. It was mentioned to me as something that might be interesting. It really did become interesting when I discovered that I was reading Gilman's book also. This looks like a good time to jump in. :) I don't have a copy of the book with me so forgive me if I spell names incorrectly. I also wish I had one for page references but that's just because I'm too anal about that sort of stuff. :) > Jennifer said: > 1. Why wasn't Tedla made "human"? I think someone asked this question > before. Mistake? Or too great a need for blands? As someone else > mentioned, did they need more pretty ones? Of course, Gilman needed a more > intelligent bland to drive the story. At first, I thought that Tedla was > left neuter by error. After finishing the book, I wonder if increasing > demand for blands was causing them to allow higher intelligence levels, > which would inevitably result in a Tedla (e.g. agent of change). > Based on the story this seems to be the main answer. Recall Gaele's (sp?) conversation with the Gammadian towards the end of the book. He confronts them about the society's increasing need for blands as workers and how this has become the primary reason for their creation and not the need to avoid abuse of planetary resources. Also when Tedla goes through the testing before becoming human a worker comments on the number of blands and that they hadn't expected so many to be "created." (But those workers also don't really seem to be aware of the "plan.") As an aside could the culture survive knowing that blands were created/chosen and not accidental? Would non-blands feel gulity and would blands feel resentful? I'd say yes. For the culture to survive the secret cannot be revealed. This may be why they Gammadians want Tedla back; they know, I think, that she knows the true nature of the blands. > 2. Was Tedla really more intelligent than other blands? I'm not sure about > this. Could it be that it was just exposed to the right events and people > to develop as it did? Some parts of the book made it seem like Tedla was > incapable of handling abstract concepts, although that's clearly not the > case based on its later success at the Capellan university. Popular belief > held that blands lose intelligence after nine months, but Gilman implied > that was just a result of brainwashing, and Tedla managed to stave off or > overcome that brainwashing. > Well I think you have to decide what kind of intelligence you mean. The blands were educated "just like humans" until the point they become gendered. Also the education "before" they become bland isn't in the kind of manual tasks that blands do. Tedla, and the other blands, are thrown into the bland world, which makes them scared and ashamed, and then they are told to do tasks that they have no experience in doing. No wonder they seem "stupid" to the humans. Many of the blands show intelligence and the ability to think abstractly *and* manipulate the environment around them. Tedla comments that the blands are good at avoiding work and yet keeping the supervisors happy and in the dark. They have also managed to create a "bland culture" outside of the Gammadian one and they certainly have developed a religion/myth structure with witchcraft. Of course this doesn't fit with the Gammadian view of the blands so they don't see the culture they have developed, and the strategies they have for managing the humans. Even Tedla doesn't see it at first. (One reason why they may have overreacted to the bland "revolution" may be that this awareness was starting to come to the fore.) > 4. Was this story about gender? At first it seemed that way. But near the > end, Tedla points out to Val (as was discussed here already) the Capellan > "grayspace", filled with blands of both genders. And it's true, none of the > bad things that happened to blands really had anything to do with their lack > of gender. Was the story really about class, then? Or about any "other" > that can be dehumanized and brainwashed and enslaved. > I'd say the story was about the "other" and that Gilman used the blands as a way to detach it from gender. Because of the distinction between blands and "humans" I started to think of it more like a racial difference than anything else. (Essentially the "difference" is created and superficial and once it happens it influences *everything* from that point on.) > 5. For the group: if you tended to think of Tedla as gendered, which one > and more importantly, why? I tended to think of Tedla, and most of the > blands, as male. I'm having trouble figuring out why. I don't think it was > the cover art, which I agree looks male. The only bland I thought of as > female was the crazy coven leader. I hate to think what kind of > internalized messages led me to those assumptions. > Hmmm. I thought of Tedla as female. Why? Perhaps because it seems more acted upon than acting. Unfortunately this seems to be a more "female" experience to me. Take care, Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:32:33 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Reading list/ WisCon/ lesbian writing / Elizabeth Lynn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jennifer et al: I think the point abut the length of MISTS is a good one. Perhaps we should consider a short hiatus in early June to allow students and mothers who have students to browbeat into passing 7th grade (no personal agenda here -- why do you ask? ) a breather. We then could take 6 weeks to read and discuss MISTS, starting ALIEN INFLUENCES in August, rather than July?? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe Barbara Benesch will be at WisCon. I know she has had problems with aol so she may not be currently receiving the FEMSF list ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robin in Texas: In counterpoint to your comment on the "'quality' of lesbian writing," I'd like to note that in my experience, there have been more than a few books published by some of the small lesbian presses which seem to have no literary virtues beyond the gender/sexual preferences of the author/characters. There is one publisher in particular who has completely alienated me by publishing books I found unreadable, then rudely rejecting an author whose mysteries I enjoy, who was fortunately picked up first by another small house, and is now published by a division of Random House. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Celebrated MG's Fifth Birthday Saturday in a drizzle. Okay, so we had lots of people there and saw lots of old friends and the cake was yummy ... But none of that compares with my getting to spend the afternoon with Lizzy Lynn!! She generously provided us with an assortment of her backlist, including hardcover copies of NORTHERN GIRL and DANCERS OF ARUN, plus a smattering of the paperbacks. She was wonderful in person -- just as charming, attractive and forthright as one would expect. Yippee!! If you are interested in her books, please contact the store at mgbooks@ax.com Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:25:08 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ines Lassnig Subject: Joanna Russ thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've read Russ' article "Why Women Can't Write" recently and I found it highly interesting for its classification of literary modes, e.g. the "lyrical mode" as opposed to conventional narrative strategies as for example proposed by Aristotle. Has anyone read the article and what do you think about the concept of the lyrical mode? I'm aware that there has been some talking about Russ' new book and someone suggested having a separate thread that is dedicated to this. I unfortunately didn't subscribe to that thread, so could anyone of that thread contact me privately and tell me how to do it? Ines Lassnig ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:46:26 +0000 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: BDG reading list Lynn Comments: cc: jkrauel@ACTIONEER.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > > Jennifer et al: > > I think the point abut the length of MISTS is a good one. Perhaps we should > consider a short hiatus in early June to allow students and mothers who > have students to browbeat into passing 7th grade (no personal agenda here > -- why do you ask? ) a breather. We then could take 6 weeks to read and > discuss MISTS, starting ALIEN INFLUENCES in August, rather than July?? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That sounds like an excellent idea to me . I will be out of state a good part of June and away from my computer. I am * especially* interested in the discussion of Mists of Avalon and was afraid I was going to miss most of it while on vacation. I have started rereading it, but it's size is = to 2-3 ordinary length novels. Terri W ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:23:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Wiscon? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Since the topic has been breached, I'll delurk my dealer status for this one and only one *shameless* *self-promotion*: I'll be at Wiscon, mostly in the huckster's room, selling books, mostly SF and fantasy by women, mostly half-price paperbacks - with discount deals on lots of stuff that's been discussed on this list. And if you identify yourself as a feministsf listmember, you get 15 percent off your first purchase of any number of books. (If you come back later for "seconds," though, that will be regular price.) I'll have a sign up that says "David Christenson"/"Ladybug Books." Naturally, I'll be paneling and partying with y'all in the evenings, since that's the *real* reason I'm going. The dealer thing is just a front. :) -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 12-May-98 12:39 AM > > From: Cynthia Gonsalves \ Internet: (cynthia1960@home.com) > To: fem \ Internet: (feministsf@listserv.uic .edu) > > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Wiscon? > > I'm delurking to ask who on the list is going to Wiscon Memorial Day weekend? > "Real" life has been keeping me busy, so I've been following the book > discussions with an eye for finding future reading matter. > > Hope to see you there in Madison! > > Cynthia > -- > "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's > _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! > > http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ > -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Pratchett and feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hmmm, well I am a feminist AND a mad fan of Terry Pratchett's work ever since I started reading it, only a few short years ago (because of a scholarly paper on Pratchett presented at the Popular Culture Association). Like another poster, I'm not sure I thought of Pratchett and feminism directly because of his wide ranging satire on everything--one of the funniest on-going jokes is in _Guards! Guards!_ where the City Guard of Ankh-Morpork is trying to practice a discworld version of Affirmative Action. They let in a Dwarf, a Troll, and a w-....... Throughout the novel, everyone assumes the "w-" is a woman, but it turns out SHE'S a werewolf! I love the witches--but I don't necessarily see them as "feminist" (of course this gets back into a Big Hairy Discussion of what "feminism" means--I cannot remember if we went through it on this list, or on one of the others that I'm on--maybe it was the lois-bujold list). I'll be glad to talk about Pratchett at more length, on or off the list, and think about whether or not or how his work is related to feminism......it seems he satirizes a lot of Canonical, Western, Masculine sort of ideas, so in that way, subversion/satire being part of it, maybe it's a feminist strategy.....but I just dunno....... Robin in Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:01:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: Feminism and the Discworld - Again In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980512180342.007c48b0@cs.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 12 May 1998, Julieanne wrote: > I have to agree - I have never thought of Pratchett's Discworld series > being overtly feminist (or any other form of *ism* for that matter) - as I > have been reading them most of my adult life [snip] though it's not really about "feminism" per se, what about "equal rites"? it addressed gender roles among the discworld's magic-users (and could easily be extended to gender roles among magic-users in lots of "traditional" fantasy novels). i agree that as far as the DW series is concerned, nothing is sacred and humour is tantamount, but occasionally there's some seriousness under the fluff. i guess i'm de-lurking with this message. :) hi all. -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:57:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Feminism and the Discworld - Again There was a very nice episode of consciousness-raising (well, sort of) in "Jingo", where Corporal Nobbs, in women's clothing, finds himself among a group of women.... Granny and Nanny don't need their consciousness raised, thank you VERY much, and Susan's self-image problems are not exactly connected with her gender! Don't forget the Affirmative Action program in the Guards! "The Last Continent" does break new ground with goodguy (er, goodperson) drag queen performers (there were a couple of mildly homophobic references in earlier books, but I don't think they were actively hostile). Just kick back and enjoy! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:16:43 CDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch Subject: Re: Reading list/ WisCon/ lesbian writing / Elizabeth Lynn Content-Type: text/plain De-Lurking a bit.... Maryelizabeth Hart said: >Jennifer et al: > >I think the point abut the length of MISTS is a good one. Perhaps we >should consider a short hiatus in early June to allow students and >mothers who have students to browbeat into passing 7th grade (no >personal agenda here -- why do you ask? ) a breather. We then >could take 6 weeks to read and discuss MISTS, starting ALIEN >INFLUENCES in August, rather than July?? This seems like a good idea to me. I have friends getting married in June whose wedding I'm supposed to be helping with (as well as getting my own wedding in order for October - yike!), and some extra time to delve into 'Mists' would be helpful. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >I believe Barbara Benesch will be at WisCon. I know she has had >problems with aol so she may not be currently receiving the FEMSF >list ... Well, er, slight correction. I will be in Madison, and depending on my schedule, may go to WisCon for a day or so, but my primary reason for being in Madison is visiting some friends I haven't seen in months and months, so I'm afraid the Con takes a back seat. However, if folks could email me if there are plans for any FemSF-ers to get together, I'd definitely be interested, and would make an effort to join in the fun. grin. And yes, AOL has been a pain in my backside lately so I've been making do with this silly ol' Hotmail account. Unfortunately, Hotmail's leaving a different bruise on my heinie, so I've mostly been lurking. But I can and do receive mail, and hope to be back on the dreaded AOL-wagon soon. In the meantime, however, you can write me at BJBenesch@hotmail.com and I'll write back, I promise. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Celebrated MG's Fifth Birthday Saturday in a drizzle. And 'hear, hear' for the 5th birthday of Mysterious Galaxy!! Cheers, all, Barbara Benesch BJBenesch@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BDG: Books selected for next round of discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I havent been able to find Alien Influence yet - (one book store and the public library) I did just get Black Wine from the the lib and devoured it - can't wait for that discussion. Sheryl > ---------- > From: Jennifer Krauel[SMTP:jkrauel@ACTIONEER.COM] > Reply To: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature > Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 1:56 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Books selected for next round of > discussion > > Thanks for voting for the next six books we'll discuss. Here are the > books > you selected, in alphabetical order by title: > > Kristine Kathryn Rusch: Alien Influences > Publisher: Bantam Spectra; Publication Date: December 1997; > List price: US-$5,99, ISBN: 0553569988 > UK: Publisher: Millennium Books; Publication Date: June 1995 > > Candas Jane Dorsey: Black Wine > Publisher: Tor; Publication Date: January 1998; List price: > US-$13.95; > ISBN: 0312865783 > > Marion Zimmer Bradley: The Mists of Avalon > Publisher: Del Rey; Publication Date: July 1987; List price: > US-$14.00; ISBN: 0345350499 > > Melissa Scott: Shadow Man > Publisher: Tor; Publication Date: December 1996; List price: > US-$13.95; ISBN: 0312862067 > > Joan D. Vinge: The Snow Queen > Publisher: Warner Books; Publication date: 1992, List price: > US-$5.99, > ISBN: 0445205296 > > Mary Doria Russell: The Sparrow > Publisher: Fawcett Books (Ballantine Reader's Circle), > Publication > date: September 1997, List price: US-$12.00; ISBN: 0449912558 > > Ordinarily we would start off with Alien Influences in June. However, > there > isn't much time to get and read the book before then, so I'd like to > ask > those who want to participate but have more trouble getting the book > if > there's another on the list that is easier to obtain (or that you > already > have). I suspect the easiest to find might be Mists of Avalon. > > If a significant number of you contact me today or tomorrow and say > one book > is much easier to find, we'll read that one first. Otherwise we'll > start > with Alien Influences. I'll send another email with the actual > reading > order by Wednesday. > > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > book discussion group coordinator > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:39:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: WisCon In-Reply-To: <19980512191643.23163.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Normally I would be at Wiscon and doing some sort of programming, but this year I'm going to miss for the first time in a decade because somebody decided to put the Science Fiction Research Association the same weekend and I've got to attend because I'm Treasurer. So while you all are enjoying Pat Murphy and Karen Joy Fowler etc etc I'll be off in Phoenix in 110degree heat listening to Hal Clement. Sigh. Mike, who'd rather be in Madison Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:09:27 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: 'quality' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Automatic digest processor wrote: > > Robin Reid wrote: > Subject: 'quality' of lesbian writing > > One thing that I've had circulating in my mind for some time--have NO idea > where it came from--is that true liberation is achieved when formerly > oppressed groups have the freedom to be mediocre....let me hastily add that > I'm not talking about arguing for any conscious dumbing down or trying for > any less than one can, but that in regard to individual performance (whether > on the job or a book), members of an oppressed group are under the pressure > to excel just to "prove" they have the right to participate. On the > political scale, a white male politician can screw up in major ways without > anybody raising doubts about whether white men in general should be > "allowed" into politics; let a Hispanic woman be indicted for something (as > recently happened in Dallas, Texas), and there are suddenly DOUBTS about the > fitness of such a minority group to be playing with the big boys. Let a > mediocre movie or book or any other art/ifact be produced by the dominant > group, and it pretty much goes unchallenged, but "lesbian" or "feminist" or > any other labeled text undergoes a good deal of pressure and scrutiny, if > only because relatively few of them are produced in any year. Robin, you make a very good point. The same thing happens in physics, at all levels. If a male physics student has an average record but loves physics, he often goes ahead with the major. Female students often feel they have to be at the top of the class to be a major. The pressure came form many sources, often unintentional, but still there. I saw it in my students when I was a physics professor, and also in graduate school, or even now sometimes when I am at conferences. I've often been in the situation where I am one of, or the only, woman present. The pressure comes from not only representing your ability as a scientist, but the sense that your represent your entire sex. Have a bad day, make a typo, phrase something wrong, and all female physicists are (to an extent) judged by it. This isn't true of everyone in science, and certainly it is often unintentional, but the element does exist. I've noticed similar in the world of science fiction and fantasy, with one big difference; evaluation of literary quality is more subjective. This is not to say there isn't subjectivity in scientific evaluation; it does exist. But the parameters used to judge literary quality are, by their very nature, more subjective. That makes it easier to dismiss high quality work as "fluff." I've seen this happen with works such as you mention, including many that reviewers may not realize are feminist, that is, sf or fantasy dealing with issues that tend to interest women more than to men, or that have a more feminine perspective in the priorities of the story. If it's "fluff," it dosn't have to be taken seriously. What is shaking up the field now is that more and more women are reading science fiction and fantasy. What women judge as quality is having an impact, both in literary and commercial terms. We are simply more likely to buy books that value our perspective on life. Just look at the Nebula winners. It will be intriguing to see how the field shapes up in the future! Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:59:16 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CIGILMAN Subject: Wiscon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I will be at Wiscon, in case you want to throw things at me for ending my book wrong. :-) If there is a gathering, I would love to attend. Let me know. BTW, I have really been enjoying the discussion of Halfway Human, though of course it's been very difficult for me to keep my mouth shut. Carolyn Ives Gilman cigilman@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:03:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: male/female behavior (was male prof salaries) In-Reply-To: <017401bd7a0c$e5783ae0$a8ae2499@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks, Donna! That was very nice. I wish I was really a hero. So I won't freak out so much about all the stuff I'm trying to accomplish. Cause it does seem sometimes like too much for a human. BTW, I just put up a Web page about the situation in my country and welcome everyone to check it out. It's not science fiction, but it has some info on what women in Tajikistan have to go through. Honestly, I'm just trying to do as much as I can before I could be sent home to get killed. I have an interview at the Immigration concerning my asylum application in a week. If they deny it (as they almost always do), I have a pretty good chance to get deported where I have very little chance to survive for very long. So there might be not a whole lot of time left for me to be a hero, unfortunately. The web address is : http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html If you visit the page, please let me know what you think about it (in private email). And thanks again for the kind words :). Marina On Thu, 7 May 1998, donna simone wrote: > Marina, > > Re: the entire note really, but here mostly: > > >.......Going back to that discussion of how people assign gender: I > >had a lot of people suspecting me of being transsexual just because I > >don't "act like a girl" (whatever in the Hell that means). "Have you > >always been a female?" -- half-joking tone and a cautious look :) It's > >funny, but it seems that behavior is a lot more important in this than > >appearance. Because I look anything but "butch". I'm a lot more of > >Julia Roberts type - pale, skinny, and helpless-looking (can't stand > >Julia Roberts!). However, when I start talking, it somehow scares > >people a lot more than the muscular buzz-cut women with big fists > >speaking up. > > I want to bow to you before all. You are one of the most fascinating > people I have ever "met". AND one of my personal heroes. > > Go girl! > > I am going to start a fund to contribute to your tuition so you can > remain forever in that Ivory Tower wreaking havoc with their > assumptions. > > (chuckling) donna > donnaneely@earthlink.net > > "If we are afraid to insist we are right, then what?" June Jordan, Oct 89 > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 04:47:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG order of reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me add my vote to discussing Mists of Avalon in July and Alien Influences in August. Mists is one long book and even though I've read it before, I'm sure it would take more than a couple of weeks for me to get through it again. Coincidentally, after watching the Merlin miniseries on TV, I had already planned to reread Mists. The series was good for geneology but didn't have much else to offer. It made me want to submerge myself in that magical Avalon of the book again. Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:58:23 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Tiptree Award and WisCon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I was astonished when I looked up the 1997 Tiptree Award on the web side that this year it is presented at Readercon (?) in Boston in July instead of at WisCon. Somehow, I had always assumed that the Tiptree Award and WisCon are closely connected. Does anybody on the list know more about it? I write, of course, from a European perspective. I have never been to a sf convention and can only imagine how it is. If this sounds wistful to you, you get the right impression. I'd love to attend WisCon once but to fly to the US just for it seems a bit extreme. I have used up my CO2 contingent several times already, as it is. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:50:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: Wiscon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain So chime in on the discussion! Sheryl > BTW, I have really been enjoying the discussion of Halfway Human, > though of > course it's been very difficult for me to keep my mouth shut. > > Carolyn Ives Gilman > cigilman@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Tiptree Award and WisCon In-Reply-To: <1F4D6056AB2@iers1.ier.uni-stuttgart.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 13 May 1998, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > I was astonished when I looked up the 1997 Tiptree Award on the web > side that this year it is presented at Readercon (?) in Boston in > July instead of at WisCon. Somehow, I had always assumed that the > Tiptree Award and WisCon are closely connected. Does anybody on > the list know more about it? > The first few times the Tiptree was given the ceremony was at Wiscon, a natural choice since it's a more or less feminist award and Wiscon is a feminist con, but there's no official connection between the two. It's also been given at Readercon, as you mention, and at the International Association for the Fantastic in the Arts annual conference. From what I've been told, other Sercons (ie serious sf conventions) may also host the Tiptree in the future, although it will probably return to Wiscon on a regular basis. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:03:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: WisCon -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike, you'll be missed. Marsha in Milwaukee >>> Michael Marc Levy 05/12 4:39 pm >>> Normally I would be at Wiscon and doing some sort of programming, but this year I'm going to miss for the first time in a decade because somebody decided to put the Science Fiction Research Association the same weekend and I've got to attend because I'm Treasurer. So while you all are enjoying Pat Murphy and Karen Joy Fowler etc etc I'll be off in Phoenix in 110degree heat listening to Hal Clement. Sigh. Mike, who'd rather be in Madison Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:32:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janice M Bogstad Subject: Re: Tiptree Award and WisCon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Others can possible explain this better, but there IS a connection to WisCon in that WisCon people did much of the early fund raising and other kinds of support that got the Tiptree off the ground, so to speak. Now I wasn't involved with that - I had left Madison by that time, but there was a lot of energy out of WisCon because we (I was involved with WisCon from 1975 to 1985 or so) had had such a long history of foregrounding and supporting women and feminism in science fiction and fantasy. Jan Bogstad bogstajm@uwec.edu At 09:54 5/13/98 -0500, you wrote>> >The first few times the Tiptree was given the ceremony was at Wiscon, a >natural choice since it's a more or less feminist award and Wiscon is a >feminist con, but there's no official connection between the two. It's >also been given at Readercon, as you mention, and at the International >Association for the Fantastic in the Arts annual conference. From what >I've been told, other Sercons (ie serious sf conventions) may also host >the Tiptree in the future, although it will probably return to Wiscon on >a regular basis. > >Mike Levy > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:01:01 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tracy MacShane Subject: Re: OT: jargon explanation! In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19980513143246.51a7e48a@uwec.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >had such a long history of foregrounding and supporting women and >feminism in science fiction and fantasy. ..... I hate to sound snarky, but what is "foregrounding"??? Does it mean "bringing to the fore" or does it have some additional connotation? I'm all for new words when they add something NEW to the language.... Tracy the pedantic (I KNEW I had a title there somewhere) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:28:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: discussion books for remainder of 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the feedback on book availability and your preferences! After awhile it dawned on me that there is no rush and waiting for Mists of Avalon until July is perfectly fine. A nice little reminder that I'm too wrapped up in my job when I assume everything has to be done as soon as humanly possible. Here are the next books in order, with the date discussion begins: July 6 The Mists of Avalon, by Marion Zimmer Bradley August 3 Alien Influences, by Kristine Kathryn Rusch Sept. 7 Black Wine, by Candas Jane Dorsey October 5 Shadow Man, by Melissa Scott November 2 The Snow Queen, by Joan D. Vinge December 7 The Sparrow, by Mary Doria Russell If you don't already have a copy of these books, you should first try your local independent feminist or SF bookseller. In the event you have trouble finding a copy, you can order the book via email or the web at mgbooks@ax.com or http://www.mystgalaxy.com. Mention that you are on the FEMSF list when ordering, and they will know to extend the 15% discount. Mysterious Galaxy can ship orders outside the US and the discount should help cover some of the shipping costs. Members are encouraged to suggest a bibliography of essays or other works pertaining to these discussion books. Please send suggestions to Kathleen at kmfriello@aol.com, and she'll see that the info is sent to the list and published on a web page. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com book discussion group coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Quality of lesbian-centric f/sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I, too, read Daughters of a Coral Dawn and both loved and hated it. Forrest is actually capable of some decent writing, so it's a shame she didn't apply it to that story. But as others have noted, if you're into science fiction, identify as a lesbian, and want to read stories with characters you can identify with, you don't have a lot of choices. Thank goodness this is changing, with Griffith and Scott providing the leading examples, and Elizabeth Lynn finally back on the scene (though I haven't read her new book to see if it has lesbian characters). I've also read Severna Park's first book, Speaking Dreams, and although I was a little disappointed the characters have stuck with me and I'll probably read her sequel. Other authors/books worth reading (I haven't read all of these so others should speak up if I'm wrong and the lesbian-centric content isn't there): Gael Baudino's Gossamer Axe Jewelle Gomez' The Gilda Stories For stories where the default relationship type is lesbian, but not exactly the utopian version represented by the classic Wanderground, I recommend: Suzy McKee Charnas' Motherlines and the Furies Elizabeth Vonarburg's Into the Mother's Land and Silent City I also haven't seen anything really good from the lesbian/pulp publishers such as Naiad. There was one series, something to do with Isis, that was particularly dreadful. Sorry to hear about Maryelizabeth's bad experience trying to steer higher quality authors their way. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:24:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Wiscon? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also will be at WISCON....wearing a name tag that says "Buyer Beware". donna >I'm delurking to ask who on the list is going to Wiscon Memorial Day >weekend? "Real" life has been keeping me busy, so I've been following >the book discussions with an eye for finding future reading matter. > >Cynthia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:10:18 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kmfriello Subject: Re: Wiscon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jealous, jealous, jealous: I wanted to go but can't hurdle the work! Anyone know of plans for online activities there? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:26:33 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Quality of lesbian-centric f/sf In-Reply-To: <000a01bd7ede$5a8d6fa0$657218ce@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Other authors/books worth reading (I haven't read all of >these so others should speak up if I'm wrong and the >lesbian-centric content isn't there): >Gael Baudino's Gossamer Axe >Jewelle Gomez' The Gilda Stories I thought of a couple more last night after posting this: Rachel Pollack's Godmother Night Pat Murphy's Nadya Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:14:53 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: sex in the new Elizabeth Lynn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jennifer and other interested parties: While Lizzy seems comfortable with just about every male/female combination, the two primary relationships in DRAGON'S WINTER are male/male and male/female. BTW, Jennifer, I know *exactly8 what you mean about everything having to be done ASAP. :) Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:05:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: WisCon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Mike says: > So while you all are enjoying Pat Murphy and > Karen Joy Fowler etc etc I'll be off in Phoenix in 110degree heat listening to > Hal Clement. Sigh. You are no doubt aware (but the rest of the list probably isn't) that Fowler and Murphy are the guests of honor at Diversicon 6, July 24-26, in Minneapolis. To those not familiar, this is a small literate con with a steady flow of good programming, where you actually get to talk at length with the guests of honor and other writers. Still plenty of room to sign up. Website: http://sfminnesota.scc.net/diversicon.html -- David Christenson - ldqt79a@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:16:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: BDG: Halfway Human (Join in CIG) (was: Wiscon) In-Reply-To: <3055ec3a.3558f065@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 12 May 1998, CIGILMAN wrote: > I will be at Wiscon, in case you want to throw things at me for ending my book > wrong. :-) If there is a gathering, I would love to attend. Let me know. Sorry, I'm just a fan of the downbeat ending. > BTW, I have really been enjoying the discussion of Halfway Human, though of > course it's been very difficult for me to keep my mouth shut. I, for one, would be delighted to hear any comments you would like to make. It must be terrible to be on the hotseat and not be able to talk back. > Carolyn Ives Gilman > cigilman@aol.com > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:54:38 +0000 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Re: Wiscon Comments: cc: CIGILMAN@AOL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CIGILMAN wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I will be at Wiscon, in case you want to throw things at me for ending my book > wrong. :-) If there is a gathering, I would love to attend. Let me know. I liked the ending! I wanted very much for Tedla to be safe. I really got into her < umm, I mean its > life and how she < it > managed to endure no matter how much it was exploited. I thought of Tedla as a * her* because its suppression seemed similar to how married women with children were treated in the past. The blands were made to feel as if they were stupid even though they were the ones holding things together. They also took sole care of the children. Sort of sounds familiar to me. > BTW, I have really been enjoying the discussion of Halfway Human, though of > course it's been very difficult for me to keep my mouth shut. I wish you would speak up. It would be great to hear what you have to say! Terri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:44:46 GMT+1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Katherine Dall Organization: ELM Macquarie University Subject: Re: Pratchett and feminism I too am a lover of Pratchett's writing, and do not have any trouble whatsoever in considering it to be feminist. The Discworld series has consistently provided witty and intelligent critique of gender roles within the fantasy [among others] genre. His proposition that female dwarfs must look exactly the same as male dwarfs [down to the beards] does more to show up the omission of female characters in Tolkien et al than any number of academic feminist critiques, IMO. Whoever said that humour couldn't be political? Why can't it be feminist if it's not "serious"? Judith Butler has pointed out that "laughter in the face of serious categories" is a political resource that feminism cannot afford to lose. [in the intro to _Gender Trouble_ for those who are interested.] Pratchett delivers this in bucketloads. His work has also taken serious notice of class and race issues [see particularly the books about the City Watch, and _Lords and Ladies_] and consistently exposes exploitative power relations throughout many different areas of society. Just because it's funny doesn't mean it's fluff. I consider Pratchett's work to be some of the most incisive, intelligent and downright hilarious social and literary criticism around. Kate.