Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9805C" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 00:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Wiscon/Lesbian Writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1) I, too, will be at Wiscon; but I'm a nobody (hi, E. Dickinson!) and have nothing to offer -- neither events, nor book discounts. If there is an event for readers of the list, however, I'd be interested. 2) Books: I forget which ones have been mentioned as quality writing with lesbian themes, but has anyone mentioned Raphael Carter's The Fortunate Fall? Or Elizabeth Lynn's books (I know she's on another thread, but she counts here, too), or ALL of Melissa Scott's books? Or the British authors: Anna Livia, Zoe Fairbairns, Nicky Edwards, Sandy Hall, or Gwynneth Jones? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:19:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: OT: Chronic Fatigue Comments: To: Suzette Haden Elgin , Marietta Sue Dennis , Mathews , Carol Mathews , BOB SHAW , Hildy Burness , Phil Mathews , "ogham@prickly-wombat.com" , Paganspace , Lois Bujold Fandom , Georgette Heyer Discussion List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If you have it and your MD can't find anything wrong with you, before you try anything else, SEE A DENTIST. Gum infections (see the latest SCIENCE NEWS) can be both nasty and sneaky. I'm on a serious course of antibiotics for one right now. It's like any other infection. As SCIENCE NEWS said, if you had a festering sore on your hand that was oozing pus and sending red streaks down your arm, you'd run to the doctor. Well, I've got exactly that but under my teeth. No WONDER I've been dragged out throughout a gorgeous spring! Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:45:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Wiscon/Lesbian Writing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Anderson wrote: 2) Books: I forget which ones have been mentioned as quality writing with lesbian themes, but has anyone mentioned Raphael Carter's The Fortunate Fall? Or Elizabeth Lynn's books (I know she's on another thread, but she counts here, too), or ALL of Melissa Scott's books? Or the British authors: Anna Livia, Zoe Fairbairns, Nicky Edwards, Sandy Hall, or Gwynneth Jones? Jennifer responds: Yes, we mentioned Lynn and Scott. Could you name specific titles to watch for from the British authors? Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:32:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Angels and Feet and Serpent Garden >>Sooo.... Are you telling me that when Mary Magdalene "bathed the >feet" >>of Jesus, they were - you know - "bathing his feet," as it were? >Yikes! > > Which then makes one wonder about the instructions to wash one another's feet.... I guess sometimes a footbath is only a footbath? >> Has anyone read Judith Merkle Riley's "The Serpent Garden"? It's about a female miniature painter working for Cardinal Wolsey, and includes a really NICE angel called Hadriel, whose mission is to encourage the arts. (Not a sex-relations situation.) I really enjoy Riley's work. It's certainly within the fantasy boundaries! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:22:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Angels and Feet and Serpent Garden In-Reply-To: <19980515.164639.4022.3.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 15 May 1998, Frances Green wrote: (snip) > Has anyone read Judith Merkle Riley's "The Serpent Garden"? It's about a > female miniature painter working for Cardinal Wolsey, and includes a > really NICE angel called Hadriel, whose mission is to encourage the arts. > (Not a sex-relations situation.) I really enjoy Riley's work. It's > certainly within the fantasy boundaries! I love her books! *Vision of Light* is one of my favorites that I have read over and over. I agree that they are within the fantasy boundaries and IMO can be considered feminist. The main characters in JMR's books are women who carve out their own destinies even against powerful opposition. Even the romantic elements are done in a quirky sort of way. Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:39:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: CFP: _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_ (9/1, PCA 3-31-4-3-99) Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CALL FOR PAPERS: This is a call for papers on _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_ ONLY. I am interested in assembling panel proposals on the series for the 1999 national Popular Culture Association conference in San Diego, California. Proposals for presentations on _any_ aspect of _ST:DS9_, from any discipline, are welcome. There is no outside limit on the number of panel proposals I can submit. Deadline for submitting proposals: September 1, 1998. Please send either a 300 word abstract or a 10-12 page draft of your presentation, along with your name, mailing address, telephone number, and (optional) email address to: Robin Anne Reid Department of Literature and Languages Texas A&M University-Commerce Commerce TX 75429 WORK: 903-886-5268 FAX: 903-886-5980 EMAIL: Robin_Reid@tamu-commerce.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:47:51 +0000 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: No Subject MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just testing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:46:20 +0000 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: [FFSFU] BDG authors onlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT n Thu, 14 May 1998, Stacey Holbrook wrote:> > > BTW, I have really been enjoying the discussion of Halfway Human, > > though of course it's been very difficult for me to keep my mouth > > shut. > > I, for one, would be delighted to hear any comments you would like > to make. It must be terrible to be on the hotseat and not be able to > talk back. > > > Carolyn Ives Gilman > > cigilman@aol.com How do folks feel about this? _This_ being the presence, and silence, of authors onlist whose books are under discussion, or rather the question of should we be reading those books in this forum? I'm pretty conflicted. While I have found many new authors,a and read many books by them since joining this list, I am really uncomfortable with doing a book discussion of any of them with the authors on list and quiet, and also with the authors onlist and vocal. Because of this, I haven't voted for or participated in any of the discussions where authors are on this list; however, we have an *awful lot* of great authors on this list,a nd it would be great to hear from them. On the other hand (I guess I'm playing octopus today) Nicola and Vonda have been really quiet since we read their books. maybe we;ve silenced them. I guess this is just an attempt to open up discussion of this question, since we haven't really discussed it as a list before, and I am concerned that we might be silencing folks. I am particularly interested in how the authors feel under discussion, actual or potential, but I realize that may be a little too much of a hot seat to demand they jump into. Defeats the point... throwing the floor open... Rudy O Rudy Leon who is a SHE (how did that change what you were thinking?) Syracuse University PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 14:35:20 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CIGILMAN Subject: : Halfway Human redux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit All right, you persuaded me to speak up. First, thank you all for an intelligent and eye-opening discussion. I learned a lot. And if I perpetrated a fraud on anyone by lurking, sorry--but it sure did liven up the discussion. Didn't you notice that some of the most insightful things were said by people who hated the book? How boring if everyone had been polite and cautious. I was struck, while listening, with how differently readers and authors look at books. Readers are a whole lot smarter, because they have the benefit of hindsight. Writing (at least for me) is not a very rational process. I don't decide to do things for intellectual reasons, but for dramatic reasons, or simply because it "feels right." The successes, when they come, seem like serendipity, and the real miracle of the thing is that serendipity ever manages to happen more than once. It's always possible to come up with a clever rationale ex post facto, but authors who do this are a little like politicians trying to take credit for some purely random event. Oh definitely, I intended to do that all along. Sure. There were a lot of surprises for me in people's reactions to the book. Here are just a few among many. 1. Tedla and gender: I have been keeping very unscientific track of people's comments on asexuality. Some people have argued to me that personality itself is impossible without gender, and therefore everyone will necessarily assign Tedla a gender in their minds. A lot of people do, and I've found it splits almost exactly 50-50 as to whether the gender they assign is male or female. Because I've had a lot more responses from women than men, I can't tell whether men are as likely to see Tedla as female. However, up to now there has always been a sizable contingent who didn't see Tedla as either male or female, but were able to imagine a person without gender. I was astonished that no one in this group said that they were able to achieve this feat. Does that mean there wasn't anyone? [Incidentally, when I was trying to sell the book, two agents (both men, though I'm not sure that's relevant) told me that the idea of an asexual being was so revolting that "readers would not accept it." One of them assumed I was trying to write pornography, and had failed. He gave me some helpful tips which, I'm glad to say, I no longer remember.] 2. The blands. A lot of people (not just this group) have talked about the blands living lives of appalling degradation. They see the blands' exploitation as being quite alien to their experience, and different by orders of magnitude from anything that exists in our world, outside of Asian sweatshops. This puzzles me, because I and people I know have experienced a lot of the same working conditions, and responded in some of the same ways the blands do (no witchcraft so far, but I wouldn't rule it out). People at my workplace have started stopping me in the halls to report "blandlike experiences" they have had. I have also, I admit, treated people as if they were blands and I was human. Gammadis did not seem nearly so alien to me as it did to many readers--I find it easy to imagine fitting right in. Am I alone? 3. Tedla, Tellegen, and abuse. The question of whether the relationship between Tedla and Tellegen was abusive has stumped me. I honestly don't know what I think. It doesn't help that societies around the world are scarcely unanimous about the morality of relationships between powerful adults and powerless teenagers. In some parts of Africa, they are perfectly acceptable, while in America they are illegal. The power differential is very troubling, but does that make it abusive? To take an example that would NEVER actually happen, what if the President of the United States had sex with an intern? Would that automatically be abusive, because of the power difference? 4. Galele and pedophilia. I understand people's complaints about this turn of the plot. I kind of wish it hadn't happened too, but it did. I've been thinking about why. (See disclaimer above about ex post facto rationales.) What I really wanted to do at this stage of the book was test Tedla's humanity by facing it with a situation that would arouse its own intolerance. The test couldn't be an easy one that the rest of us would have no trouble passing. Some person close to it had to be revealed as a member of a class of people Tedla had every right to feel hatred toward, and which the rest of society feels justified to revile and dehumanize. The question was, could Tedla resist the urge to see Galele as a member of a despised group, and instead see him as an individual who might have done terrible things, but who had resoundingly passed the humanity test as far as Tedla was concerned? Well, Tedla eventually rose to the occasion (too late), but I'm finding many readers don't want to. It's not that I expected --or wanted -- anyone to condone pedophilia, or forgive all pedophiles (I think the rest of the book makes that clear!). I only wanted them to find understanding for Galele the flawed individual. Maybe this was too morally murky, but like I said, an easier test wouldn't have been any test at all. So the event was there as a challenge to Tedla, and ended up being an unintentional challenge to readers, too. For my money, the point where Tedla becomes fully human is not when it refuses to speak Gammadian, but when it transcends its own past and forgives Galele for something unforgivable. Carolyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:24:54 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: [FFSFU] BDG authors onlist Comments: To: releon@SYR.EDU In-Reply-To: <199805171745.NAA25169@syr.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm not silenced -- I just mostly lurk under any circumstances. I didn't want to jump into the discussion of Dreamsnake. I thought my doing so might turn the discussion to a lecture on what was the real truth of the book. Do I know what that is, twenty years after writing it? There were a couple of lines of discussion that I found quite puzzling, but if I'd started arguing about any of them, I wouldn't have learned much about ways of reading the book that I hadn't expected were possible. Best, Vonda On Sun, 17 May 1998 13:46:20 +0000, Rudy Leon wrote: >..... On the other hand (I guess I'm playing octopus today) >Nicola and Vonda have been really quiet since we read their books. >maybe we;ve silenced them. > -- http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda http://www.sfwa.org/awards/1997neb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 17:43:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: ride from Chicago to Wiscon? Comments: To: gt-pfrc-digest@angus.mystery.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" does anyone driving have room for another? Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 03:57:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Halfway Human, sexless Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carolyn wrote that she was surprised no one on the list seemed to be able to imagine Tedla as sexless. I thought that while Tedla always wanted to be human, it seemed quite proud to be neither male nor female after what it had seen of sexed beings. But still, I can't really feel what it would be like not to be a sex. The need to identify with one's group is a strong human trait. What more basic group to claim than one's sex. While no one would describe me as the most feminine person they know, I identify myself completely as female. In fact, since I am a labor and delivery nurse, sex is a larger than usual part of my life. The first question anyone asks at the birth of a baby of course is, "Is it a boy or a girl?" The other night we had a baby that had either very large labia or a scrotum and no penis. The doctor said it was definitely a boy, the nurse wouldn't write that on the delivery record because she couldn't say that it was true. Genetic studies are being done! , but for 2 weeks or so the parents can't answer that first question with complete certainty. It shouldn't make a diference. A baby is a baby. But now with the popularity of ultrasound parents want to assign their little fetus to the correct group as soon as possible. Even without the possibility of becoming a bland, imagine what it would be to escape that sexual assignment for 12 whole years. I wonder what we chauvenistic people would use to discriminate against each other then. Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:31:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Real Life _Mists of Avalon_ discussion I don't know if anyone on here is in the Baltimore area, but it was just too much of a coincidence that they're discussing _Mists_ at a time when we're reading it. Guess it's the book of the moment. I have no more information about this event and I won't be there, so if you have any further questions, I'd suggest calling the number for Borders listed in the message. If you do go, please let us know how it went. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jane A. Cayanan" To: suspects@asylum.sf.ca.us Subject: Balt, MD Fantasy, SF discussion I know there aren't many Balt. area elboids, but I thought this might be of interest: At Borders, Towson, 415 York Rd., 410 296 0791: 6/6, Saturday, 8:00 p.m.: Fantasy & Science Fiction Discussion (one Saturday every month ) In a world where magic and the old ways are dying, the destiny of the world rests on women. This is the portrayal of the Camelot myth as put forth by Marion Zimmer Bradley in _Mists_of_Avalon_, this month's topic for our Fantasy Book Discussion. Through the eyes of Camelot's women, Zimmerman offers a fresh and powerful view of this popular myth. Hosted by Josh Meeker. --Jane ------- End of forwarded message ------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:00:19 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CIGILMAN Subject: Re: BDG authors onlist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I know this is not the reason the list was created--but honest, intelligent feedback is worth its weight in gold to a writer. It is also very difficult to come by. Personally, I treasure every reaction I can get, even the crotchety ones. Especially the crotchety ones, in fact, because I know they're not pulling punches. As to author silence: I doubt very much that anyone is sulking or afraid. Vonda is right, the instant the author speaks up the discussion tends to cut off, as if the author somehow knew the truth, or it turns into an interview. There are enough of those in Locus. However, I can understand why people feel inhibited knowing the author is listening; I certainly do. Maybe there should be some ground rules that make it clear you're allowed to dislike a book as long as you say why. (I'm going to have a hard time discussing Mists of Avalon if I'm not allowed to be critical!) Any author who can't take it doesn't have to listen, or can argue back. I doubt there are many authors out there who can't take it. Hearing criticism is part of the bargain you take on when you publish. Besides, around here the tone is generally so high, and the criticism so intelligent, that I bet the authors will be as grateful as I was. Carolyn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:40:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Bowman Subject: WisCon Lunch I'm also going to WisCon. How about meeting for lunch on Saturday? I saw this mentioned on the list last year. Did it work out? Where is a good place to meet? Joan jobowman@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:00:11 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NicolaZ Subject: Fwd: [FFSFU] BDG authors onlist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_895532411_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_895532411_boundary Content-ID: <0_895532411@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Ooops. Meant to send this to the list--only just realized I sent it to Rudy. Nicola --part0_895532411_boundary Content-ID: <0_895532411@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: NicolaZ Return-path: To: releon@syr.edu Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] [FFSFU] BDG authors onlist Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:28:24 EDT Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I don't feel silenced by the discussion of AMMONITE. I had a great time reading the comments. Most of them--positive and not--gave me pause for thought. I deliberately didn't chime in during the discussion because I believed (rightly or wrongly) that it might make some of you feel a wee bit self-conscious. Getting feedback from readers is such a precious commodity to a writer that I would have done almost anything to keep the flow going. I tried to make it clear before the discussion began that, at the end, I'd happily answer any question that was put to me directly...but then I was unsure about whether or not anyone had done that, and the discussion wound down during an incredibly busy period for me so the moment just...passed. My apologies to anyone who really wanted me to answer something. I'd be happy to answer you now if you can remember your question . I'd suggest that if authors of the next few books to be discussed are present on the list, that some kind of more formal question-response procedure is instituted. For example, the discussion goes ahead as planned, then in the last week, people address questions directly to the author. This way, you all get to chew things over for a while before the author explains what they *really* meant. The list can comment on the writer's response, too, of course, but at least at this point the writer knows s/he can play without squashing anyone else's opinion. Again, it was a great gift you gave me, reading, thinking and talking about my work. Thanks. Nicola --part0_895532411_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:12:20 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: BDG Halfway Human MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't been able to finish HH yet, and I don't know whether I will. I keep on reading other books in between which have a much better flow. I find the great wadges of description of past events almost undigestible. There are all these long pieces of Tedla's story, and then Val suddenly starts responding, and you realise it was all in the past. It lurches really badly from static past narrative to present action. When I do get into it, I can read a reasonable amount and it carries me along. But when I get to the end of one of those long regurgitations, I just stop dead. The discussion has been a stimulant, because people were getting so much from it, so I'd force myself to read past the next interlude and into the next long narrative. I also haven't found Val's behaviour believable in such a knowledge-commodity society. In one conversation, she makes a few comments which show she is low on the hierarchy, and then thinks to herself that the person she's talking to will now dismiss her for it. Well, wake up, Val! There are skills basic to competing in this kind of society, the kind of bullshitting which is honed in today's academic and corporate world, all about competitive status and protecting your patch. She just doesn't seem to have any of that worked out. As a story-telling device, she has to be low on the hierarchy to give her attempt to protect Tedla some dramatic tension, but as a character she hasn't been believable so far. The wadges of Tedla's story are so big, I haven't been able to remember Val's responses and actions from one mention to the next. That swapping from one aspect of the story to the other just hasn't worked for me. It worked well in Slow River, and lots of other books, but not this one. It just feels really heavy going in HH. Hopefully, I'll finish it, but I have to agree with one of the other posts which described it as turgid. I'm a non-fiction editor and don't usually feel an urge to edit fiction, but this book has a solid kernel of good story and ideas in a bad structure, which cries out for a severe rewrite and edit. Jenny R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: [FFSFU] BDG authors onlist Comments: To: Rudy Leon In-Reply-To: <199805171745.NAA25169@syr.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 17 May 1998, Rudy Leon wrote: (snip) > How do folks feel about this? _This_ being the presence, > and silence, of authors onlist whose books are under discussion, or > rather the question of should we be reading those books in this > forum? I'm pretty conflicted. I feel a little uncomfortable being critical because I don't want to cause any hurt feelings. But I think things have worked very well so far with the authors holding back their own comments until the discussion has had a chance to wind down. I think the authors should get the chance to answer if they choose to. I have really enjoyed the discussion of all three books. I have had the chance to see these books from totally different perspectives. I am looking forward to the next books. > Rudy Leon Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:19:49 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: WisCon Lunch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a suggestion: Why doesn't someone post a place on the announcements board where we can all meet in the flesh on Saturday at Wiscon? see you there, Cynthia Joan Bowman wrote: > > I'm also going to WisCon. How about meeting for lunch on Saturday? I > saw this mentioned on the list last year. Did it work out? Where is a > good place to meet? > > Joan > jobowman@juno.com -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:32:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla as male) In-Reply-To: <199805182310.LAA208320895533029@mail.iconz.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I figure I'll give a shot at explaining why I used "he" for Tedla (subconsciously) since there seems to have been more of lean toward she on this list. (and I was able to think of it as neuter btw. I just used the male pronoun and though of it sort of like a gelding, male with bits removed): I'm male and I was identifying with Tedla (that was the intent right?) So I projected my own gender onto it. As a hetero-sexual male women are associated with sex for me but men are not? Male is the default non-sexed gender in our society (related to above?). Men sexually abusing little boys is on the news more often. It can't have children (I don't see the fathering as nearly as big a deal). In my personal experience women are not used and abused. Anything like that I see/would see as an aberration to be commented on and changed if at all possible. It is probable that I have missed subtle sexism in the interactions between other people, but my feminism is not really based on experience of the kind of sexism displayed towards blands on Gamadis. I intellectually understadn that such sexism exists/has existed, but I have been well insulated from it. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:36:23 -0400 Reply-To: Joel VanLaven Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla a mistake?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some discussion has gone into whether Tedla was mistakenly (malicously?) made into a bland. I was struck by some thoughts on the subject: 1) Suppose that this selective breeding was really working. The average Gammadian might easily be as exceptional as Tedla. (how long has it gone on ?) In particular, if you subscribe to the idea that geneticly determined intelligence in humans is limited but that with this breeding we could weed out "dummies" the books would work very well. 2) Why are the humans on Gammadis so stupid? I was not impressed with their intelligence. Was this indoctrination THAT powerful? We are talking about the smartest (bred for smarts) people around. How could they be so stupid? 3) Is it possible that they are bred for more than intelligence? How about feelings towards blands? Might Tedla have been made into a bland for loving that bland that helped it as a child? Perhaps they have been breeding abnoxious, imperious jerks on purpose. Whatever it is, maybe Tedla was considered threatening to the order of it all (though it seemed to be perfectly normal) 4) Since the book seems completely dominated by economics was the point simply that Tedla was in the middle and the society was so far gone that they needed more than 50% blands? -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:39:35 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: _Ibis_: Out of Print, but Worth the Search Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I remember some time back a bit of discussion of this book by Linda Steele. I didn't know anything about the work at that time, so I didn't pay close attention, and don't know how much of my comments are simply a rehash. If I'm only covering familiar ground for you, please forgive and move on to the next item. Still with me? OK. _Ibis: Witch Queen of the Hive World_ is from DAW Books, and was published in 1985. It's now out of print. I found a copy at a used book store. If you can do likewise, and if you like examinations of our culturally biased gender assumptions, then _Ibis_ is well worth searching for. The book examines what happens when a Planetary Exploration Service ship with many hundreds of scientists and researchers aboard hits an energy warp, which damages its drives and navigational gear so seriously that it is forced to crash land on the planet Mi. Mi is an unexplored M class planet with no mammalian life other than the one intelligent species, a humanoid race apparently descended from colonization efforts made by earth in the distant, forgotten past. Other than these Ibisian humanoids, the only other animal life on me is insect, and it is staggering in its variety. The Ibisian humanoids have seem to have evolved over the eons they have been on Mi. They have adopted a culture similar to that of hive insects. Their settlements are architecturally styled like bee's hives. A dominant queen rules each hive. She, and the other subordinate queens are the only members of the hive capable of bearing young. Female warriors and workers, each a step down the line in authority and intelligence from the queens, are made in great numbers. They are nonreproductive females. At the bottom rung of the intelligence and strength ladder are the drones. These indolent beings are bred solely for their beauty. They die in their one act of mating with a queen. The human survivors of the PES ship, though far advanced over the bronze-age knowledge of the Ibisians, eventually are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of warriors that a zenophobic ruling queen dedicates to their extermination. Less than 200 are left alive, and they are taken into captivity in the hive. In the chaos that results from the Ibisian attack and its concomitant losses to the hive, a young queen revolts against the aging dominant queen, and succeeds in overthrowing her. At about the same time, the young queen learns, through a chance encounter with an earthling, that human males are very different from Ibisian males. They are not the weaker of the two genders among the strangers, she discovers. Also, they seem capable of rational thought. And what truly fascinates her is that they do not die when mated. She begins to think of the implications for her control of the hive that owning such creatures might provide. The plot unfolds from there. For those lucky enough to find a copy, I won't spoil it by saying how it all ends. Suffice to tell you that it is a fascinating reversal of all the widely accepted gender incipience our culture beats into our heads from birth forward. It is fascinating reading, sometimes shocking, sometimes maddening, but never boring. I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to examine their own gender assumptions to see which are worth keeping, and which are baggage left by the foggy thinking of previous generations of ignorance. Happy reading Jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:04:13 -0700 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla a mistake?) Comments: To: Joel VanLaven MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel VanLaven wrote: > > Some discussion has gone into whether Tedla was mistakenly (malicously?) > made into a bland. It seems to me that speculating on *why* is a red-herring. I have been assuming that a large part of the point of the conceit of assigning status according to the possession (or not) of sex organs is the arbitrariness of such judgments-- as has been the real-life case for centuries in most (probably all) human societies. The folks who run maquiladoro (export-processing) factories in the Third World, for instance, assume across the board that workers with vaginas (as opposed to those with penises) are better at "detail" work. There's a wonderful (& entertainingly written) article by Leslie Salzinger in the Fall, 1997 issue of _Feminist Studies_ exploring attempts to manage workers according to the management's particular notion of essentialist gender characteristics. (Actually, it would be excellent for people to read this article while reading _Halfway Human_-- the two resonate with one another in very interesting ways.) In any case, I think that trying to find a rational reason for Tedla's being tracked into the blands makes about as much sense as trying to understand intelligence & socialization as resulting from essentialist sex differences. It's all arbitrary, & rationalizing it simply reflects a need to say that it is, in some sense, justified. Timmi Duchamp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:33:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: _Ibis_: Out of Print, but Worth the Search In-Reply-To: <89220c1f.3561c3d8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This sounds like L. Sprague DeCamp's ROGUE QUEEN, which is over 40 years old. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: [FFSFU] BDG authors onlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to reiterate what the other authors on the list said about the value of hearing comments of any stripe, positive or negative. They are worth their weight in gold, not only for the book in question, but also for future books. I've been silent mostly because I'm swamped; many days it's a choice between email and writing. Also, I don't want to annoy people by talking about my own books. Best regards Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:31:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Shadow Man Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently tried to order Shadow Man from Mysterious Galaxy Book Store and found it was out of print. Does anyone have a source for it? Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:05:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Shadow Man In-Reply-To: <19980520132943.27775.qmail@www06.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 20 May 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > I recently tried to order Shadow Man from Mysterious Galaxy Book Store > and found it was out of print. Does anyone have a source for it? > Joyce Jones > > Tery the used bookstores. Or amazon.com > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:43:37 +0000 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: Shadow Man In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I thought one of the crit's for nominating/reading BDG books was that they be in print... I had thought we would run into trouble with a six month lead time, but this book was in print when nominated. Do we go ahead with it anyway (it's October's book...)? On 13 May 98 , Pat wrote: > On Wed, 20 May 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > > > I recently tried to order Shadow Man from Mysterious Galaxy Book > > Store and found it was out of print. Does anyone have a source for > > it? > > Joyce Jones > > > > > Tery the used bookstores. Or amazon.com > > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:16:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Shadow Man I checked daniel.interloc.com (a used bookstore search facility) and found _The Shadow Man_ by Clare Barroll for $6.00, by John Katzenbach for $15.99, by Dennis Etchison for $15.00, by John Lutz for $8.00, by F.M. Parker for $13.00etc. Who is the author? Sorry, I've not been following the discussion. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com // /// \\\ \\ Delay not your conversion to the LORD, Put it not off from day to day Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 5:8 Read the mailing list Bible@dragon.com Read the mailing list Literature@dragon.com Read the mailing list nt-trans@dragon.com (Greek New Testament) Read the mailing list ot-trans@dragon.com (Hebrew Old Testament) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:26:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: Shadow Man In-Reply-To: <009C6771.A18E8660.114@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 20 May 1998, Cindy Smith wrote: > I checked daniel.interloc.com (a used bookstore search facility) and found > _The Shadow Man_ by Clare Barroll for $6.00, by John Katzenbach for $15.99, > by Dennis Etchison for $15.00, by John Lutz for $8.00, by F.M. Parker for > $13.00etc. Who is the author? Sorry, I've not been following the > discussion. None of those people actually :) Melissa Scott is the author. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:50:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Shadow Man In-Reply-To: <199805201542.LAA23712@syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:43 AM 5/20/98 +0000, Rudy Leon wrote: >I thought one of the crit's for nominating/reading BDG books was that >they be in print... I had thought we would run into trouble with a >six month lead time, but this book was in print when nominated. Do >we go ahead with it anyway (it's October's book...)? Actually, I nominated this, and before I did I checked for it on Amazon. If it's not still available there, it went out of print in the last couple of weeks. I'd like to hear what Maryelizabeth thinks about this - what's the story? Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:51:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla a mistake?) Comments: To: "L. Timmel Duchamp" In-Reply-To: <3561C99D.2B52@halcyon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 19 May 1998, L. Timmel Duchamp wrote: > Joel VanLaven wrote: > > > > Some discussion has gone into whether Tedla was mistakenly (malicously?) > > made into a bland. [snipped some great stuff about essenitalism and arbitrariness] > In any case, I think that trying to find a rational reason for Tedla's > being tracked into the blands makes about as much sense as trying to > understand intelligence & socialization as resulting from essentialist > sex differences. It's all arbitrary, & rationalizing it simply reflects > a need to say that it is, in some sense, justified. I suppose that this is possible. Sometimes it isn't arbitrary though. Sometimes a black person doesn't get a job just through the arbitrariness of the world. Sometimes it is a mistake. Sometimes it is racism. Sometimes it because of some other thing about the system and that person. I understood from the book that Tedla's blandness was supposed to have been chosen by the tests. There are a number of possible ways to make this fit in with the rest of the book. Many (all ?) of them involve arbitrariness in one form or another. The question is what other things might have been involved and what form of arbitrariness was involved. I am not really particularly interested in Tedla so much as what Tedla can tell us about the patterns, trends, and the system on Gammadis. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Shadow Man In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 98 12:51:38 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I believe that the hardcover is out of print but I see the trade paperback listed as in print at three different online bookstores. Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:17:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Bowman Subject: Re: WisCon Lunch Comments: cc: cynthia1960@HOME.COM On Mon, 18 May 1998 Cynthia Gonsalves wrote: >Why doesn't someone post a place on the announcements board where we can >all meet in the flesh on Saturday at Wiscon? Great idea. The lunch break is from 11:30-1:00 so let's shoot for 11:45. I'll post the details on the message board Friday night so we can just meet at the restaurant on Saturday. Joan jobowman@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:59:06 +0000 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Re: Shadow Man Comments: cc: hoop1@USA.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joyce Jones wrote: > > I recently tried to order Shadow Man from Mysterious Galaxy Book Store > and found it was out of print. Does anyone have a source for it? > Joyce Jones > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Amazon has it but, they say it takes a week before they ship it. If you need their URL email me privately. Terri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:15:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: Shadow Man: plug for independant bookstores In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 98 14:59:06 -0000." <3562EFB6.5AB7@cybertours.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Amazon has it but, they say it takes a week before >they ship it. If you need their URL email me privately. WordsWorth (www.wordsworth.com), an independant bookseller in Cambridge, says you can have it shipped immediately. Nice people. Carry a lot of SF/F. Let me sit on the floor and read the first three chapters. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:54:27 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Shadow Man I found this available as a remainder at www.bookexpress.com (I think I am right in saying) a few months ago. I don't know if they still have copies but it is worth checking Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Rudy Leon Sent: 20 May 1998 12:43 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Shadow Man I thought one of the crit's for nominating/reading BDG books was that they be in print... I had thought we would run into trouble with a six month lead time, but this book was in print when nominated. Do we go ahead with it anyway (it's October's book...)? On 13 May 98 , Pat wrote: > On Wed, 20 May 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > > > I recently tried to order Shadow Man from Mysterious Galaxy Book Store and found it was out of print. Does anyone have a source for it? Joyce Jones > > > > > Tery the used bookstores. Or amazon.com > > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:08:16 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla a mistake?) Content-Type: text/plain ----------------------------- > >Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:04:13 -0700 >From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" >Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla a mistake?) > >Joel VanLaven wrote: >> >> Some discussion has gone into whether Tedla was mistakenly (malicously?) >> made into a bland. > >It seems to me that speculating on *why* is a red-herring. I have been >assuming that a large part of the point of the conceit of assigning >status according to the possession (or not) of sex organs is the >arbitrariness of such judgments-- as has been the real-life case for >centuries in most (probably all) human societies. The folks who run >maquiladoro (export-processing) factories in the Third World, for >instance, assume across the board that workers with vaginas (as opposed >to those with penises) are better at "detail" work. There's a wonderful >(& entertainingly written) article by Leslie Salzinger in the Fall, 1997 >issue of _Feminist Studies_ exploring attempts to manage workers >according to the management's particular notion of essentialist gender >characteristics. (Actually, it would be excellent for people to read >this article while reading _Halfway Human_-- the two resonate with one >another in very interesting ways.) > >In any case, I think that trying to find a rational reason for Tedla's >being tracked into the blands makes about as much sense as trying to >understand intelligence & socialization as resulting from essentialist >sex differences. It's all arbitrary, & rationalizing it simply reflects >a need to say that it is, in some sense, justified. > >Timmi Duchamp Oddly enough, there are many decades of psychological experiments supporting the idea that women, on average, are better for monotonous detail work than men. I don't suppose those maquiladora operators give a damn about whether this difference is the result of early conditioning, biology, or anything else. I guess I don't understand Timmi Duchamp's point too well -- is it that because the system of men, women, and blands is evil, therefore it is pointless to ask whether it makes sense or works in logical ways? I have to disagree. I think it is better for imagined worlds, whether utopian or dystopian, to function in a reasonably realistic way. Otherwise, you get propaganda or cheap escapist pulp fiction. When you look at what some "evil" societies -- say the slaveowning South of the USA, South Africa under apartheid, ancient Sparta -- each was administered by fairly able and intelligent men doing what they thought necessary to preserve their system. The fact that those systems were based on falsehood and injustice is a different issue entirely. So I think it is absolutely appropriate for Joel to ask why the Gammadians would act in a seemingly ineffective manner. Dan "I rooted for Darth Vader" Krashin P.S. I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this yet, but it seemed rather implausible to me that the government could keep the origin of the blands a secret for so long -- I mean, just imagine the number of people who must be in on it! I think the story would have been just as good if everyone had known that the blands were an artifical, arbitrary group, but society dictated that the blands deserved their fate. Or did I miss something? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Shadow Man For out-of print stuff try www.bibliofind.com This is a used-bookseller network: you can search to see who has a book, and leave requests on a want list. I have found it VERY useful, except for its side-effect of sucking money out of the wallet...but any bookstore is likely to do that! (Here, try sniffing this funny white powder...you'll like it!) Amazon.com will also do a used-book search, but it's faster & cheaper & more options to go direct! I think Shadow Man (if it's the Melissa Scott) is available in paperback, however. On Wed, 20 May 1998 08:31:38 -0500 Joyce Jones writes: >I recently tried to order Shadow Man from Mysterious Galaxy Book Store >and found it was out of print. Does anyone have a source for it? >Joyce Jones > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at >http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla a mistake?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay before I whip out my pithy retort or sarcastic feint praise, I will hold my breath and count to xxx and hope that my plane for Wiscon arrives soon. Now let me go find my course book on universally offered feminist studies _before_ I pass out........ I am soooo tired, donna Re: Dan Krashin (timmi duchamp clipped below) >Oddly enough, there are many decades of psychological experiments >supporting the idea that women, on average, are better for monotonous >detail work than men> >I guess I don't understand Timmi Duchamp's point too well -- is it that >because the system of men, women, and blands is evil, therefore it is >pointless to ask whether it makes sense or works in logical >ways? I have to disagree......When you look at what some "evil" >societies -- say the slaveowning South of the USA, South Africa >under apartheid, ancient Sparta -- each was administered by fairly able >and intelligent men doing what they thought necessary to preserve their >system. The fact that those systems were based on falsehood and >injustice is a different issue entirely.> RE: Timmi Duchamp >>....I think that trying to find a rational reason for Tedla's >>being tracked into the blands makes about as much sense as trying to >>understand intelligence & socialization as resulting from essentialist >>sex differences. It's all arbitrary, & rationalizing it simply >reflects a need to say that it is, in some sense, justified.>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:31:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Jost Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human (Tedla as male) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ---Joel VanLaven wrote: > > I figure I'll give a shot at explaining why I used "he" for Tedla > (subconsciously) since there seems to have been more of lean toward she > on this list. I caught myself thinking about Tedla as a "he" almost immediately on meeting the character, and I had to make a conscious (and difficult) effort to think of Tedla as "it" throughout my reading. I think this was because I easily accepted that Tedla was "not a woman", and in my frame of reference, to be "not a woman" means to be "a man" (hee hee I see men as the Other!). My ole brain simply had trouble processing the idea that one could be neither woman nor man, and had to be constantly directed to do so. But I certainly see Tedla's experiences as being more woman-like than man-like. When I got to the torture scene I let my brain take over with the "he thinking", simply because that let me feel that I was a step further away from the full horror of it than I would have been if I had allowed myself to think of Tedla as "she". (Even at a "step removed" I found it a horrific passage and very difficult to read.) Regards Ruth Equal Pay Watch Australia: news, info and resources on pay equity. http://www.users.bigpond.com/rj_gj/index.html _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:42:58 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Wiscon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I'm off tomorrow morning. Looking forward to meet those of us who are there on Saturday! I'm leaving room in my suitcase for the inevitable pile of reading matter I'll be bringing home. Love and hugs to all...Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:28:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: finding out-of-print books Hi all - I just wanted to throw in a plug for libraries as another possibility for finding an out-of-print book, if you're having trouble finding a used copy or want to save a little money. If your library doesn't have a copy of what you need, they should be able to obtain it on interlibrary loan. If you're affiliated with a college or university (staff or student), the university library will undoubtedly offer this service, probably at no cost to you. If you're not at a college, your public library will most likely offer this service as well. They may charge a nominal fee, maybe 50 cents or a dollar, but that's still a bargain (and less than it costs the library in staff time & postage to fill your request.) Allow a couple of weeks for the book to arrive. Hope the booksellers on the list don't mind this little ad for libraries. Librarians do BUY lots of books too! (This has become even more clear to me in the last week as I've started packing for a move - 21 boxes of books so far and no end in sight!) --Ruth Ann Jones Michigan State University Library ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:28:59 +0000 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: [FFSFU] BDG authors onlist In-Reply-To: <3561F047.1755@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks everyone for commenting. I'm really glad I brought it up, and now that I know that honest feedback is valued, and authors aren't uncomfortable in the spotlight (that's why they write, I guess...) *I* am much more comfortable. Have a great Memorial day weekend, and enjoy WisCon, to all who are going. Rudy Leon who is a SHE (how did that change what you were thinking?) Syracuse University PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion releon@syr.edu