Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9806A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:22:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: DRAGON'S WINTER by Elizabeth Lynn In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 May 98 07:47:59 BST." >In reading it it is a little more complex than good v. evil, at least among >the two brothers who are pitted together. I agree it is a retelling of some >of the classic fantasy ideas, but I wasn't disappointed, just put DW in the >same category as ROSE DAUGHTER et al. I don't always need a new story or >new ideas, although I can understand Janice's expectations for a certain >something from Lynn. This was how I took it as well: I had looked forward to one particular thing, but found a different thing that I also enjoyed. Both the story and the language (more formal, I thought, than her other books) sounded to me like myth, and the stories that various characters told to one another reinforced that idea. One thought I had was this: a common technique is to explore one very significant difference-from-the-norm when writing a story about an otherwise normal society, to point up the changes that that makes. In SF&F, of course, it's hard to say what "one change" is -- FTL flight might not be shown as making a big difference, but AIs might. Or AI might be just "people in machines" with no discussion of how they differ from what we think of as people, but women might hold all positions of power. So in the Chronicles of Tornor, we've been talking about the changes in gender relations that are explored; but the ban on edged weapons probably has an equally fundamental effect on the society of Kendra-on-the-Delta (in The Northern Girl). It seemed to me that in Dragon's Winter, although many of the standard mythic trops were used, the way in which we saw The Mighty Battle Between Sorcerers was changed by the fact that the main characters were not the "heroes", that people who I'd assumed would live through the book were killed, that some of the main characters lost important things and were hurt. It *felt* like a standard myth: but it didn't seem glorious, or heroic, to me. Someone commented that they disliked the way Karadur seemed uninterested in the suffering of his troops (I'm paraphrasing, forgive me if I interpreted this wrong). To me this seemed unpleasant and wrong, but I saw him as inhuman and a little cruel from the beginning, so I didn't feel like I was supposed to agree with him. Partly this was from the author's portrayal, but I have to admit that it was also because every time I saw "Karadur" I thought of "Barad Dur", a classically monumental place of evil that stuck in my head when The Lord of the Rings was read to me when I was six. Your mileage, obviously, may vary. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:05:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Tiptree Collection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Info out of WISCON: To be released: _Flying Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy_ - edited by Debbie Notkin and the Secret Feminist Cabal "for a limited time only, we will accept orders for the new Tiptree anthology, _Flying Cups and Saucers_. Its projected publication date is May 1999, until which time you can reserve a copy at a special pre-publication prices. The anthology will include a short introduction by Debbie Notkin and stories that were short-listed by the judges of the first five years of the Tiptree Award." Please submit correspondence that includes the following info: Reserve ____ copies of Flying Cups and Saucers Name Address City,State,Zip Country phone email Enclosed is US $17.00 per copy ($14.50, plus @2.50 shipping/handling. Total enclosed __________________________ mail info to : James Tiptree Jr.. Literary Award Council Anthology Sales Debbie Notkin 680 66th Street Oakland, CA 94609 USA Thought list folks would want to know. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:04:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Vivian Lee Subject: Re: Tiptree Collection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thank you! Vivian (delurking) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:13:47 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: DRAGON'S WINTER bby Elizabeth Lynn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah shared in part: >It seemed to me that in Dragon's Winter, although many of the standard >mythic trops were used, the way in which we saw The Mighty Battle >Between Sorcerers was changed by the fact that the main characters >were not the "heroes", that people who I'd assumed would live through >the book were killed, that some of the main characters lost important >things and were hurt. It *felt* like a standard myth: but it didn't >seem glorious, or heroic, to me. I agree. It reminded me of Elizabeth Moon's DEEDS OF PAXINARION, with one not feeling secure that any character would survive, and feeling the cost of war in a personal manner, rather than in the abstract sense of "thousand of lives lost..." >Someone commented that they disliked the way Karadur seemed >uninterested in the suffering of his troops (I'm paraphrasing, forgive >me if I interpreted this wrong). To me this seemed unpleasant and >wrong, but I saw him as inhuman and a little cruel from the beginning, >so I didn't feel like I was supposed to agree with him. Partly this >was from the author's portrayal, but I have to admit that it was also >because every time I saw "Karadur" I thought of "Barad Dur", a >classically monumental place of evil that stuck in my head when The >Lord of the Rings was read to me when I was six. Your mileage, >obviously, may vary. Mmmm, if that was me, I think I said more that it was hard to like him with that aspect of casual cruelty in his personality, rather than disliking Lynn's attribution of that trait to him. I thought it helped define his character, the same what that Hawk's sometimes remote personality fit in with her bird of prey persona. On another thread, how's everyone doing on MISTS OF AVALON? Read while ye may. :) Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:51:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Diversicon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It isn't WisCon, but those interested in a serious science fiction convention with a feminist, multiculural orientation, might want to check out Diversicon, especially if you live in the Midwestern US. Diversicon is scheduled for July 24-26 in Bloomington, MN, a suburb of Minneapolis. Contact me off list if you want details on who to write to or other registration info. The guest of honor this year is Karen Joy Fowler. Also attending are Pat Murphy, Eleanor Arnason, Carolyn Ives Gilman, Peg Kerr, and a number of other fine writers. Also a number of members of this list. Among the panels that are still looking for volunteers are the following: Women in Hong Kong Films Slash Fiction Asian Characters in SF Life and work of James Tiptree Tiptree winners Review Tiptree Awards History Buffy the Vampire Slayer Invisible Minorities in SF Anthropology in SF Fiction of Pat Murphy Hispanic Publishers, Writers and Fandom How does SF deal with Racism Feminist Issues in SF Transgender Issues in SF and Life Robots and Workers: Class in SF >From Snow White to Mulan: Development of the Disney Heroine Vamps and Goth Girls Do Men Write About Gender Differently than Women? Discussion of Halfway Human by Gilman Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:35:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Lathe of Heaven TV movie (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:41:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard C. West To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Lathe of Heaven TV movie I'm afraid I don't remember which listserve was having the discussion about the PBS adaptation of Ursula K. Le Guin's _Lathe of Heaven_ that was televised in 1980. But I expect that it will be of general interest to say that a long article about the TV movie has recently been published in a magazine called _Video Watchdog_ no. 45 (no date, but copyright 1998), pp. 32-43. The title is "Dreams Come True: Will We Ever See THE LATHE OF HEAVEN Again?" by Frank Garcia. The author includes comments from Le Guin, Bruce Davison (who played George Orr), Kevin Conway (who had the role of Dr. Haber), and Fred Barzyk (producer). There are several stills from the film, a capsule history of how the project came to be, and commentary on the movie and its reception. Quite a worthwhile article for those interested in this film or in Le Guin's contribution to it (but I don't fancy that this magazine will be held by very many libraries). If I remember correctly, someone reported hearing that PBS may be reprising this film in the not too distant future. If so, that was decided after this article was set in type, for the author alludes only to the difficulties in doing that. (Briefly, the original contract allowed a specific number of telecasts and that limit was reached. For any further showings, the owner, WNET-TV, would have to negotiate with the appropriate unions, and pay an estimated $35-40,000 more. The outlay could probably be amortized very quickly if there were a video release, however. All of this is summarized from the article.) Anyone interested in finding this issue of _Video Watchdog_ should check their local bookstores. (I found it in a Barnes and Noble bookstore, but no doubt it is also available in other stores.) I did not follow every posting on this topic, so I apologize if any of this is old news. I will add that I remember very well seeing _The Lathe of Heaven_ on PBS almost 20 years ago, and I think very highly of the adaptation. I would love to be able to see it again. Richard C. West Kurt F. Wendt Library 215 N. Randall Ave. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison, WI 53706-1688 email: rwkfw@doit.wisc.edu or rwkfw@engr.wisc.edu telephone: 608/262-3536 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:27:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth Ann Jones Subject: Re: Lathe of Heaven TV movie There's also a short piece on the making of the film in LeGuin's book of essays, "Dancing at the Edge of the World." It's mostly anecdotal, but fun and interesting. (Actually, the entire book is excellent, with many thought-provoking reflections on feminism and science fiction.) --Ruth Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:23:14 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Signing off for summer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hate to miss out on everything. :( I'll see you all in a few months. :) Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 21:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Book discussion: Snow Queen In-Reply-To: <000501bd7d06$21ce83e0$657218ce@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have a question. Of all the books selected for discussion, the only one I've found so far was Snow Queen (the only one my university library happened to have). I did the interlibrary loan for others but have not received them yet. Snow Queen is absolutely fascinating. I read it in one day, 14 hours non-stop. So I'm wondering: can we change the order of the discussion and start from this one? What do y'all think? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:37:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jack Organization: Paradigm Deconstruction, Ltd., B.V. Subject: *FSFFU* Re: "Dancing at the Edge of the World" [was re: [*FSFFU*] Lathe of Heaven TV movie] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth Ann Jones wrote: > > There's also a short piece on the making of the film in LeGuin's book of > essays, "Dancing at the Edge of the World." It's mostly anecdotal, but fun > and interesting. (Actually, the entire book is excellent, with many > thought-provoking reflections on feminism and science fiction.) > > --Ruth Ann Is this the same collection in which "The Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction" appeared? There's a piece that goes beyond 'thought- provoking' into 'paradigm-shifting', if you'll excuse the buzzword. --Jackie felizia@snet.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:26:23 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Teresa Alonso Subject: Re: Tiptree Collection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you know whether they will accept orders from outside the US? -----Original Message----- De: donna simone Para: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Asunto: [*FSFFU*] Tiptree Collection >Info out of WISCON: > >To be released: _Flying Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science >Fiction and Fantasy_ - edited by Debbie Notkin and the >Secret Feminist Cabal > >"for a limited time only, we will accept orders for the new Tiptree >anthology, _Flying Cups and Saucers> > > >Thought list folks would want to know. >donna >donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:52:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Tiptree Collection Comments: cc: malonsoal@NEXO.ES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Si, Si, absolutely! :) The order forms clearly asked for "Country". Be sure and include your email address with your info/request. Then Debbie N. can give you specifics when the time comes. Or post her a note if you are hesitant. donna >Do you know whether they will accept orders from outside the US? >Asunto: [*FSFFU*] Tiptree Collection >>To be released: _Flying Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science >>Fiction and Fantasy_ - edited by Debbie Notkin and the >>Secret Feminist Cabal >>donnaneely@earthlink.net >