Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9806B" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:56:15 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Marina wrote > Snow Queen is absolutely fascinating. I read it in one day, 14 hours > non-stop. > > Marina I had much the same experience when I first read Snow Queen. Though I admit to spreading it out over two days, since I had decided to reign in my sleep deprivation a bit. (In my youth I devoured whole series--3 to 4 books per series--in only 4 or 5 days.) Snow Queen is definitely one of those books you have to force yourself to put down, which is partly why I nominated it for the book discussion group. I, too, am anxious to start the Snow Queen discussion. I had a similar experience with Vonda McIntyre's DREAMSNAKE this weekend. None of the libraries here in Holland had it, so I finally got around to buying my own copy. It arrived in the mail on Saturday, and I finished reading it in the wee hours of the morning on Sunday! It should be interesting to go back and review the BDG comments on it. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:27:53 -0400 Reply-To: tetra14@erols.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ty Trapps Subject: Doomsday Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote: > > The original message was received at Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:35:02 -0400 (EDT) > from 207-172-130-145.s18.as11.col.erols.com [207.172.130.145] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: > listserve.uic.edu: host not found) > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Reporting-MTA: dns; smtp3.erols.com > Received-From-MTA: DNS; 207-172-130-145.s18.as11.col.erols.com > Arrival-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:35:02 -0400 (EDT) > > Final-Recipient: RFC822; feministsf@listserve.uic.edu > Action: failed > Status: 5.1.2 > Remote-MTA: DNS; listserve.uic.edu > Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:35:06 -0400 (EDT) > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Doomsday Book > Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 11:25:35 -0400 > From: tetra14@erols.com > To: feministsf@listserve.uic.edu > > I never read Snow Queen but Im sure its pretty good. Another book that > IMHO is good is "Dooms Day Book" by Connie Willis. I > had to read it for class but i havent been able to put it down sense. > Maybe that book can be added to the discussion list. > ~Ty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:30:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: jewelle gomez & others reading in berkeley Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The date of the Carol Queen reading at Boadecia's has changed from Tuesday, June 9th to Friday, June 19th at 7:30 pm. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause, and hope you'll join us on the 19th to hear her read from her new novel, _The Leather Daddy and the Femme_. Advance notice: Jewelle Gomez will read from _Don't Explain_ on Friday, June 12th at 7:30pm, and Karin Kallmaker will read from _Making Up For Lost Time_ on Saturday, June 13th at 7:30 pm. Boadecia's Books, 398 Colusa Avenue at Colusa Circle, Kensington / North Berkeley. (510) 559-9184 or email: boadbks@norcov.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:17:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Book discussion: Snow Queen In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina, I appreciate your enthusiasm for Snow Queen and I look forward to reading it. However, as we get closer to July and the Mists of Avalon discussion, I think it's important to keep to our plan so we can have the most people involved possible. Remember, we picked Mists because it was the most widely available. I hope you have already read it or can find a way to get a copy to look at before next month (start soon!). I'm almost through Mists, and it's been a real effort! Reading it is great for upper-body workout. I look forward to a single-day read of Snow Queen, that's for sure. I hope it's not such a tragedy, too. But I'm jumping ahead to the discussion, which isn't fair. Jennifer At 09:44 PM 6/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have a question. Of all the books selected for discussion, the only >one I've found so far was Snow Queen (the only one my university library >happened to have). I did the interlibrary loan for others but have not >received them yet. > >Snow Queen is absolutely fascinating. I read it in one day, 14 hours >non-stop. So I'm wondering: can we change the order of the discussion >and start from this one? > >What do y'all think? > >Marina > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:39:51 -0700 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Nicola Griffith's new book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nicola Griffith's new book, THE BLUE PLACE, is now available from Avon Books. She will be reading from the new book & signing it on Thursday, June 11, 7:30-8:30 at the Bellvue, WA, Barnes & Noble (for those who live in the Puget Sound region). (Details about the book & future readings can be found at her website: http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola The following is my review of the book (which can be found on my website): On the face of it, Nicola Griffith's novel, _The Blue Place_, looks like a gripping thriller and tender love story that just happens to have one of the most believable and interesting characterizations to be found in any kind of fiction and a plot that serves beautifully to elaborate and exemplify it. The style is pure Griffith, as lucid and shimmering as anything she's written. But the book is not just a beautifully written thriller with an interesting and credible protagonist. On the evening I finished it I spent half the night awake, caught up in the hero, Aud's, so-peculiar point of view, revisiting scenes of my personal history with strangely new vision. The real shock came the next morning when I awakened to find that I had "snapped back" to my own point of view-- with the signficant difference of having fresh in my memory the power of the other point of view. Which is to say, though I returned to myself, it was with a difference. On the following day, though, yet another thought swept me off-- a thought that must have been inevitable, since I'd told my partner the previous day that for me the book qualified as speculative fiction, of an alternate-reality sort-- this thought being, namely, that this book is Tiptree Award material, and that probably very few people would see it. I see what Griffith does in this book as related to what I saw her doing in _Slow River_. Yes, these novels have *very* different protagonists, *very* different thematic material. But this novel employs the same general imaginative technique in both large and small, which is why I see in it strong speculative elements producing imaginative and conceptual effects typical of speculative fiction genres. Of course _The Blue Place_ is really about the character, Aud--- which fact, in addition to its realistic setting, technically puts the book outside the category of speculative fiction, since sf is not allowed to be character-centered. Everything in the book serves not only the exposition of this character, but the engulfing of the whole world into this character's construction of reality. The writing accomplishes this with such astonishing success that by the end of the book it's very difficult to question any of Aud's assertions or judgments. But although the power, certainty and craft of the writing itself brings about this effect, it is in aid of (and also partly the result of) the very extraordinariness of the protagonist. Aud is, to put it bluntly, a Hero in the classical sense, built along the lines of heroes in Sophocles and Shakespeare, a Hero from another time or place somehow successfully inserted into ordinary reality. One could even go so far as to say that she is a Nietzschean hero, his so-called Overman, free of all the pettiness, ressentiment, and corruption that bedevils the ordinary person. Which is the opposite, in modern fiction, of how heroism usually works. Usually the hero is an every"man" placed in extraordinary circumstances-- and this is particularly true of US-based science fiction and fantasy, which tends to imagine the ordinary American male as triumphing when put to the test, as though the ordinary white middle-class US male is so inherently superior, that it's only ordinary life that's holding him back. What became clear to me, as I slowly came to realize the mythic quality of her being, is that Aud is the Hero she is because she has the privilege of lacking certain kind of life experiences that most people (including, but not only, that which most *women*) have. Her take on people and life is narrow and sure; in real life (i.e., in our world) such a take would get her into all kinds of messes, but need not in the book because this is a constructed story, and thus can exclude the sorts of challenges that would make her like most other thriller-story protagonists (especially in the noir genre). The exclusion of such challenges is brilliant (and not simple or easy, either, as the word "exclude" might suggest-- since imaginative excluding is far more difficult to achieve than *in*cluding). Such exclusion provokes in me an exhilaration at the freshness of the vision offered-- a new kind of "estrangement," in the sense that sf makes the familiar strange--- and empowerment (which I'll get to later). In Aud's personal history, the defining moment for her character can be located in a harrowing night she spent in a vacant apartment complex, when she defended herself from an armed attack by an intruder. Aud, we learn, has unfettered access to her "crocodile brain" (a conceit Griffith has used in some of her short sf). By putting her entire being completely under its control, Aud is able to kill her attacker. It is significant that Aud is nude at the time. Nothing could be more emblematic of her unique, classical-hero status. Throughout the story, her nudity is an emblem of her lack of the cultural inscription that ordinarily cuts off that "crocodile brain" and all its reflex commands. And it is an emblem of her pre-dating, culturally speaking, Praxiteles' 4th- century (before the Christian era) _Aphrodite_ (aka "Venus Pudica"), and of having escaped the gender-markings imposed on women (though not men). With this statue-- of a goddess, yet!-- the genitals of nude women became, for Western civilization, symbols of shame. "Pudica" refers to the defensive concealing of female genitalia behind the hand; the Greek word for the Latin pudenda signifies both genitalia and shame. Male statues, almost always nude, display no shame or self-consciousness. Pre-Praxiteles, Athenian Greek statues of women always depicted drapery, ornament, and hair-dressing: never the female body. It is rare to find any Western post-Praxiteles depiction of female nudity that is a celebration of natural strength without self-consciousness about genitalia or breasts. It is equally rare to find such a depiction in fiction. But Aud has no such self-consciousness at any time and is always most herself-- most "natural" and most powerful-- when she's stripped down. In the world as Aud defines it, violence is naturalized, i.e., stripped of any sadistic character. At the beginning of the book I read that perversity into every situation such that I believed, at first, that she must be quite a cynical monster to be putting so much additional power into the hands of people so likely to abuse it (i.e., police officers)-- until, that is, the power of Aud's innocent gaze completely took me over. Very appropriately it's this particular innocence of how power corrupts-- her imagining that police only use their power against "perps" and that the main question of another's reliability rests on competence narrowly defined-- that results in her making a fatal error of judgment. Aud, being a Hero, is pure of heart and incorruptible. And when Aud comes to love Julia, that love is an extension and blossoming of her love of beauty, life, and the world. Aud is such a perfectionist about the way she lives, she has such stringent standards for herself, that if it weren't for her love of weather, and trees, and the earth, and beautifully made wooden objects and so on and so forth, Aud would be locked in an impossible psychological cycle of ego-idealism. The respect for the other in her loving is made clearest when she allows her beloved Julia to return to Oslo without her. A moment of great anxiety for the reader, it is nevertheless a tribute of the quality of her love and of her ability to love without arrogance. In fact, Aud would be a lost soul if it weren't for her habit of respectful loving. As it is, she's managed to cobble together a view of what is natural and orderly and correct that allows her to keep her sanity. Indeed, if she weren't a Hero, gifted with such wonderful unself-consciousness and innocence about violence, she would be a horror to herself and others. Aud's relation to violence, as is always the case for heros, lies at the heart of her heroism. She calls her experience of violence "the blue place." <> This description of the moment of violence as an expression of the love of life is possible *only* to this utopianly naturalized character, since it is ordinarily impossible that violence and pain not be culturally inscribed. In the real world, pain is the means a superior uses to humiliate and debase an inferior, and violence is a means for producing the pain that accomplishes that. In our society, violence presupposes a hierarchical dualism of superior and inferior, where the inferior is programmed against not only fighting back, but even raising an arm to shield her face. Such violence has no relation to the crocodile brain, but is, rather, a culturally-determined process that writes itself over and over on the body and brain until no conceivable "natural" response is possible (unless freezing, or nausea, or struggling to get the aggressor to make eye contact with you, is a natural response). Similarly, "pain is just a message," Aud says again and again throughout her narraitve. Yes-- but only the privileged, such as Aud, can read it as a message. In childhood many of us learn to write anger on our own bodies. And in general pain carries cultural inscriptions that make it almost impossible for people to detach themselves from its power as Aud does. For her, pain doesn't encode cultural messages-- of shame, of punishment-- and it's not a message written on the body by either the damaged self or an aggressor. It's simply "natural" and doesn't tell lies. Aud's ability to relate in this way to pain rests on an enormous privilege--- and is essential for creating her as Hero. What all this adds up to for me is a sense of enormous empowerment from reading Aud's story. That first night when my thoughts were still organized by Aud's view of things, I found myself reconstructing my life with an emphasis on plucking out of my memory one powerful, generative act of agency after another in an orgy of egotism I ordinarily would never permit myself. Lying awake, reviewing a plethora of my life's events, I began to feel like a superwoman. The next morning it all seemed ridiculous (i.e., egocentric). But a footnote in Jane Donawerth's _Frankenstein's Daughters: Women Writing Science Fiction_ suggests that my reaction may forecast the reaction of other readers. In the footnote she describes her undergraduate classes's discussions of the cocktail party scene in Joanna Russ's _The Female Man_, which she says always divide along gender lines. "I ask how many of the students have been sexually harassed at a party, and all the women raise their hands, while only one or two men do; then the heterosexual men in the class listen with growing horror, and the women with growing jubilation, to personal stories of what women did to revenge themselves on men who oppress them sexually-- I do not ask for these stories, but they are always told; having read about Janet's resistance, they feel authorized to tell of their own. This is a moment of great guilt and solidarity among the women in the class, when they talk out loud about their anger." I myself have one of the best of these stories anyone could ever imagine. I had completely forgotten it until the night I finished Aud's story. The empowerment I took from _The Blue Place_, though, is far broader than that of inspiring stories of revenge. The stories that came surging to the surface of my mind were stories about making myself and shaping the world I live in, stories of *creative* (not resentful or vengeful) agency. There is something about Aud's Heroism-- told from her peculiar point of view-- that makes one do this. In other words, it *authorizes* one to do this. I'll be very surprised if other women don't react in this way to the book. Examples of other utopian-tending acts of will in the narration that help underscore the sense of agency in the book include the text's refusing to play the is-she-a-lesbian-or-isn't-she game which is usually used to provide sexual tension in lesbian noir. The text also excludes homophobia. And perhaps most importantly, it excludes the real-world double-standard about women using violence to protect themselves or others, with the result that after a while I stopped feeling anxious about likely legal retaliation against Aud (while in the real world, when a woman kills or injures a man in self-defense, even when he's a stranger, she usually ends up doing jail-time. Just as when a young girl physically defends herself against physical attack, she's told such behavior isn't "ladylike" or that she's a "bad girl"). Read this book. Even if you don't experience the whirlwind of thought it provoked in me, you'll probably find it as immensely pleasurable as I did. Timmi Duchamp http://www.halcyon.com/ltimmel/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:57:59 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's new book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timmi Duchamp says > Read this book. Even if you don't experience the whirlwind of > thought it provoked in me, you'll probably find it as immensely > pleasurable as I did. Wow I will. What a fabulous review, vivid and exciting in itself. Just a thought on the 'Venus Pudenda'. I seem to remember that Robert Graves interpreted these statues in a different and more positive way. He thought that they were classical versions of earlier goddess statues where she was gesturing to highlight her genitals and breasts as the emblems of her power. These were then reinterpreted by male experts as gestures of shame. It might seem a minor point but I think it adds another layer of meaning to the fascinating web you presented. Thanks very much for this. Alison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:22:14 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-06-08 10:36:10 EDT, you write: << > Snow Queen is absolutely fascinating. I read it in one day, 14 hours > non-stop. > > Marina >> I'm glad to hear this; frankly, I was dreading this choice. I heard the author read a chapter a few years back and was bored stiff. Maybe it reads better than it reads aloud. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:28:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: OT: "Moebius" Comments: To: Lois Bujold Fandom Comments: cc: Duke & Tanley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII An Argentinian director has filmed "A Subway Called Moebius" on a minimal budget (the National Film Board gave him very little or nothing) and has apparently done a good job of it. The film will be playing at a Latino film festival in Santa Fe this weekend (Ouch! The very weekend I have gospel choir performance AND filking!) The film has a resonance in Argentina it doesn't have here because of the "Desaparacidos", the people the government made disappear 20 years ago. On the other hand, Argentina doesn't have our song about Charlie on the MTA. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:58:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re: Lathe of Heaven TV movie (fwd) Comments: To: Laura Quilter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember seeing bits and pieces of it long ago, so I didn't see the whole thing. Would love to see it again. I thought about it last weekend when I saw the movie *Bulworth* and the Warren Beatty character said that what the world needed was for everybody to boff people of another color so we all eventually were one color, sort of like "Lathe of Heaven." --Chuck0 "lurking so deep that he's almost done reading January messages" ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [*FSFFU*] Lathe of Heaven TV movie (fwd) Author: Laura Quilter at Internet Date: 6/3/98 3:35 PM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:41:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard C. West To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Lathe of Heaven TV movie I'm afraid I don't remember which listserve was having the discussion about the PBS adaptation of Ursula K. Le Guin's _Lathe of Heaven_ that was televised in 1980. But I expect that it will be of general interest to say that a long article about the TV movie has recently been published in a magazine called _Video Watchdog_ no. 45 (no date, but copyright 1998), pp. 32-43. The title is "Dreams Come True: Will We Ever See THE LATHE OF HEAVEN Again?" by Frank Garcia. The author includes comments from Le Guin, Bruce Davison (who played George Orr), Kevin Conway (who had the role of Dr. Haber), and Fred Barzyk (producer). There are several stills from the film, a capsule history of how the project came to be, and commentary on the movie and its reception. Quite a worthwhile article for those interested in this film or in Le Guin's contribution to it (but I don't fancy that this magazine will be held by very many libraries). If I remember correctly, someone reported hearing that PBS may be reprising this film in the not too distant future. If so, that was decided after this article was set in type, for the author alludes only to the difficulties in doing that. (Briefly, the original contract allowed a specific number of telecasts and that limit was reached. For any further showings, the owner, WNET-TV, would have to negotiate with the appropriate unions, and pay an estimated $35-40,000 more. The outlay could probably be amortized very quickly if there were a video release, however. All of this is summarized from the article.) Anyone interested in finding this issue of _Video Watchdog_ should check their local bookstores. (I found it in a Barnes and Noble bookstore, but no doubt it is also available in other stores.) I did not follow every posting on this topic, so I apologize if any of this is old news. I will add that I remember very well seeing _The Lathe of Heaven_ on PBS almost 20 years ago, and I think very highly of the adaptation. I would love to be able to see it again. Richard C. West Kurt F. Wendt Library 215 N. Randall Ave. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison, WI 53706-1688 email: rwkfw@doit.wisc.edu or rwkfw@engr.wisc.edu telephone: 608/262-3536 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:15:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Amazon.com Delivers Vonda N. McIntyre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just got a nice email promo piece from Amazon on The Moon and the Sun, plus a delightful interview with the ever charming McIntyre. Rather than repost the whole thing here, I believe you can read the interview at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671567659 The funniest part was learning that there's a rule that says something's not an "alternate history" unless it's got a war in it. I can just imagine the extensive discussion that went into crafting that rule. jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:27:30 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Fw (off topic): [darwin] A few left hooks to the rising right. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is off topic, as it was on its original list, but I think it important that the feminists herein be kept informed of just what you are (being held) responsible for. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Forwarded by Catweasel ---------------- Original message follows ---------------- From: "Dark, Shayne" To: Darwin and Natural Selection Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:34:04 -0400 Subject: [darwin] A few left hooks to the rising right. -- Good Morning, No, I take that back, it is a bad morning all around. In other baptist news we go to Texas, it is painfully obvious that they breed them both big and dumb down there, as thirty members of the Heritage baptist church got themselves together to put the boots to the Cavalry baptist church, who have just hired a (gasp of dismay) woman to be their senior pastor. Now, normally I would be unlimbering the guns and having at these assholes with both barrels, but in truth, their own quotes are so ridiculously funny as to render any additional effort on my part rather redundant. We go now to the reverend W.N. Otwell and his braying brethren. <<>>> On Sunday morning, they walked the sidewalks on North 19th Street and Bosque Boulevard, holdings signs saying that Pennington-Russell "needs to go home and be a wife and mother" and that Calvary has sinned by calling her to be pastor. Other signs said "Women have no authority," "Working women equal moral corruption; working mothers equal child abuse," and "The spirit of Jezebel; today's `liberated woman' is under her control." "We've always believed that women's place is in the home and certainly in the house of the Lord, we believe she has no place pastoring," Women, he said, "should remain silent in the house of God. They shouldn't teach or usurp authority over men." "We will hold Calvary Baptist responsible, along with the feminists, as the main cause of child abuse, abortion, domestic violence, divorce, teen pregnancies, drug and alcohol abuse, pornography, teen crime, gang violence, racial tensions, and the ever-increasing coming out of the closet of the sodomites and lesbians," <<>> Cavalry Baptist (and the feminists, lest we forget them) are responsible for all of that? Teen pregnancies, drugs, alcohol, pornography, and coming out of the closets? Say it ain't so! Nine bloody hells people! What about the rest of us who have labored so diligently to bring these aspects of culture to their fruition? Not one mention? You Bastards (you killed Kenny)! That is just not fair...sniff.. Feeling under appreciated, Shayne Dark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: djbyrne@athenet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley Subject: new to list; cyberpunk; n. lee wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just joined this list and am pretty excited about it. I'm an anthropology professor at Lawrence University in Wisconsin, and am just finishing up the grading for my first ever "Cyberculture" course. I'm also a mom of three (2 boys, 14, 12, 1 girl, 6), a flute player, origamiist, and driver of the ubiquitous urban Caravan. The Cyberculture course was a real adventure. It was the first time I taught a class with more male students than female, but it wasn't the first time I had "boys" in the classroom who enjoyed playing alpha male primate dominance games. Although the culture of the internet is something I've studied and find entertaining to teach, I was not yet a cyberpunk fiction reader. On the advice of a student, I chose -- as our one cyberpunk scifi selection -- Stephenson's *Snow Crash*. We also viewed "Strange Days" that week. Chaos ensued the following week, and a line was drawn in the sand. In one corner sat the alpha males, cyberpunk know-it-all wannabes; at the back of the classroom sat a lone Freshman male whose favorite author is Sherri Tepper and who, incidentally, missed class to attend the Madison conference; and scattered throughout the room were the feminists, artists, anthropologists, folks of color, and otherwise "Others." This latter group argued that *Snow Crash* and "Strange Days" were sexist, racist, misogynistic, and not all that well done anyway. I had discovered feminist cyberpunk too late for this course this term. Oddly, the boys in the corner were not aware that feminist cyberpunk even existed. I now have a relatively good list (your feminist cyberpunk file needs updating!) and a pile of scholarly references on the subject. I would love advice too. I'm reading a book by N. Lee Wood called Looking for the Mahdi. It's a scifi spy thriller, nicely written (the woman can write), starring a transgendered Arab-American woman journalist and her fabricant (cyborg?) sidekick. Sure beats *Snow Crash*. Nice meeting y'all. Happy to be here. Candice Bradley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:03:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Re: new to list; cyberpunk; n. lee wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Candice Bradley wrote: > I now have a relatively good list (your feminist > cyberpunk file needs updating!) Please post it. I'm an avid fan of feminist cyberpunk and can't seem to find enough of it. > I'm reading a book by N. Lee Wood called Looking for the Mahdi. It's a > scifi spy thriller, nicely written (the woman can write), starring a > transgendered Arab-American woman journalist and her fabricant (cyborg?) > sidekick. Sure beats *Snow Crash*. > > Nice meeting y'all. Happy to be here. > > Candice Bradley I picked this one up last year and was a little put-off at first by the spy-thriller type atmosphere, but eventually really got into it and enjoyed the way the 2 central characters evolved. A very good book. Cheers SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:55:38 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: Off topic -- RE: Baptists in Texas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shayne: Thank you for giving me yet another reminder of why I moved away from the small Texas town where I spent the first 25 years of my life. Some of us escape. ;) -Sharon Clark (far from Texas Baptists--not to mention those members of the Assembly of God Church--in the Netherlands) > From: "Dark, Shayne" > Subject: [darwin] A few left hooks to the rising right. > In other baptist news we go to Texas, it is painfully obvious that they > breed them both big and dumb down there... > Cavalry Baptist (and the feminists, lest we forget them) are > responsible for all of that? Teen pregnancies, drugs, alcohol, > pornography, and coming out of the closets? Say it ain't so! Nine > bloody hells people! What about the rest of us who have labored so > diligently to bring these aspects of culture to their fruition? Not one > mention? You Bastards (you killed Kenny)! That is just not > fair...sniff.. > > Feeling under appreciated, > Shayne Dark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:52:13 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: SNOW QUEEN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:22:14 EDT >From: "Kathleen M. Friello" >Subject: Re: Snow Queen > >> > >I'm glad to hear this; frankly, I was dreading this choice. I heard the author >read a chapter a few years back and was bored stiff. Maybe it reads better >than it reads aloud. > Much as I like Joan and her books, she is not among the authors who read their works very well. However, the biggest benefit to listening to her read her stuff is listening her deal with all of those tongue-twister names, IMO! LOL! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:12:02 CDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Mary Ann Beavis, IUS" Organization: The University of Winnipeg Subject: PREY is back tonight! After three months of letters, Emails, faxes and phone calls, the (mostly female) "Prey for Us" campaign has managed to get ABC to air the remaining five episodes of the wonderful (I think) primetime SF drama PREY. It airs tonight on ABC at 9:00 EST. If you've been wondering what happened to this show, you'll be happy to have it back (at least temporarily); if you haven't seen it yet, give it a chance! For some basic information about the show, go to http://abc.com/primetime/prey/index.html If you like the show, and want to joint the effort to get it renewed, go to the We Are the Prey MB at http://www.hi-fun.com/users/forum/users1/mysfyt/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:43:55 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Baptists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a very similar vein, the Southern Baptists are having their annual Convention in Salt Lake City, and part of it was supposed to involve door-to-door evangelizing. In Utah. *snicker*. The following news clip (from USA today online) has convinced me that the Mormons weren't the ones who were converted, but rather, the other way around: >Amending its formal outline of beliefs for the first time in 35 years, the >Southern Baptists adopted the declaration on families Tuesday. The >group also elected a new president who long has been the scourge of the >moderate and liberal wings of the church. >"A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, >even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ," reads the >new 18th Article of the Baptist Faith and Message. >While husband and wife are of equal worth before God, according to the >article, a husband should provide for, protect and lead the family. >A wife has "the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to >serve as his 'helper' in managing their household and nurturing the next >generation." -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Catweasel > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 6:28 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fw (off topic): [darwin] A few left hooks to the > rising right. > > > This is off topic, as it was on its original list, but I think it > important that the feminists herein be kept informed of just what you > are (being held) responsible for. > > > Trust me, I'm a doctor. > Catweasel > http://www.catweasel.org > > > Forwarded by Catweasel > ---------------- Original message follows ---------------- > From: "Dark, Shayne" > To: Darwin and Natural Selection > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:34:04 -0400 > Subject: [darwin] A few left hooks to the rising right. > -- > > Good Morning, > > No, I take that back, it is a bad morning all around. > > > > In other baptist news we go to Texas, it is painfully obvious > that they > breed them both big and dumb down there, as thirty members of the > Heritage baptist church got themselves together to put the > boots to the > Cavalry baptist church, who have just hired a (gasp of > dismay) woman to > be their senior pastor. > > Now, normally I would be unlimbering the guns and having at these > assholes with both barrels, but in truth, their own quotes are so > ridiculously funny as to render any additional effort on my > part rather > redundant. We go now to the reverend W.N. Otwell and his braying > brethren. > > <<>>> > On Sunday morning, they walked the sidewalks on North 19th Street and > Bosque Boulevard, holdings signs saying that Pennington-Russell "needs > to go home and be a wife and mother" and that Calvary has sinned by > calling her to be pastor. Other signs said "Women have no > authority," > "Working women equal moral corruption; working mothers equal child > abuse," and "The spirit of Jezebel; today's `liberated woman' is under > her control." "We've always believed that women's place is > in the home > and certainly in the house of the Lord, we believe she has no place > pastoring," Women, he said, "should remain silent in the house of God. > They shouldn't teach or usurp authority over men." > > "We will hold Calvary Baptist responsible, along with the > feminists, as > the main cause of child abuse, abortion, domestic violence, divorce, > teen pregnancies, drug and alcohol abuse, pornography, teen > crime, gang > violence, racial tensions, and the ever-increasing coming out of the > closet of the sodomites and lesbians," > <<>> > > Cavalry Baptist (and the feminists, lest we forget them) are > responsible for all of that? Teen pregnancies, drugs, alcohol, > pornography, and coming out of the closets? Say it ain't so! Nine > bloody hells people! What about the rest of us who have labored so > diligently to bring these aspects of culture to their > fruition? Not one > mention? You Bastards (you killed Kenny)! That is just not > fair...sniff.. > > Feeling under appreciated, > Shayne Dark > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:46:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: BDG Halfway Human, sexless Comments: cc: Joyce Jones In-Reply-To: <19980518085658.12222.qmail@www01.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:57 AM 5/18/98 -0500, Joyce Jones wrote: (I was offline for a while, and am catching up; this might have been timlier otherwise.) >The other night we had a baby that had either very large labia or a scrotum and >no penis. The doctor said it was definitely a boy, the nurse wouldn't write that >on the delivery record because she couldn't say that it was true. Genetic >studies are being done! The writer Raphael Carter is intersexual, and maintains an "Androgyny RAQ (Rarely Asked Questions)" at http://www.chaparraltree.com/raq/. Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:38:49 -0500 Reply-To: djbyrne@athenet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley Subject: Re: new to list; cyberpunk; n. lee wood Comments: To: tetra14@erols.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Ty's suggestion about the film "Hackers." There are a couple of websites that list cyberpunk films, including "Hackers." The best one is at: http://euro.net/mark-space/CyFilm.html Anachron City: Cinema: Cyberpunk Films Another big list of recommended cyberpunk films is on a personal homepage (Andrew Stoker's): http://www.nyx.net/~astoker/cpmovie.html BTW, somebody wrote me privately that cyberpunk is dead. Yeah I read that too. Interesting meme. I don't have the feminist cyberpunk fiction list up yet (just finished grading). My cyberculture course page is at (lots of links on it also): http://www.lawrence.edu/~bradleyc/cyberculture.html Candice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Publisher's Weekly and Nicola and Nalo In-Reply-To: <8ae86168.35002fd2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those interested, Nicola Griffith's latest, The Blue Place, just received a coveted starred review from Publishers Weekly (June 1) and Nalo Hopkinson's Brown Girl in the Ring received a highly positive review (June 8th). Mikeex Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 05:13:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Party for Pamela Dean (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:21:28 -0500 >To: minicon-l@mnstf.org >From: P Nielsen Hayden >Subject: Party for Pamela Dean > >DreamHaven Books, at 912 West Lake Street in Minneapolis, Minnesota, will be >hosting a launch party this Saturday, June 13, at 6:00 pm, to celebrate the >publication by Tor Books of JUNIPER, GENTIAN, AND ROSEMARY, the quite >remarkable new fantasy novel by Pamela Dean. > >The author will be there, as will a variety of other area writers, fans, and >notables. For what it's worth, so will I. > >Refreshments will be served. Please join us if you can! > >----- >Patrick Nielsen Hayden : pnh@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh >Tor Books : http://www.tor.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:10:16 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Amazon.com Delivers Vonda N. McIntyre In-Reply-To: <19980611002341801.AAB232@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought it was kind of funny, too. Wish I could recall who informed me of this rule. All I recall is that the information was conveyed with absolute certainty, and astonishment (and annoyance bordering on anger) that I might be silly enough to think I had found a "pigeonhole" to put M&S in so book review page editors might review it. No go, though. Vonda On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:15:56 -0700, you wrote: >I just got a nice email promo piece from Amazon on The Moon and the Sun, >plus a delightful interview with the ever charming McIntyre. Rather than >repost the whole thing here, I believe you can read the interview at >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671567659 > >The funniest part was learning that there's a rule that says something's >not an "alternate history" unless it's got a war in it. I can just imagine >the extensive discussion that went into crafting that rule. > > > > >jennifer >jkrauel@actioneer.com > -- http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda http://www.alexlit.com/ Short stories on line! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:37:58 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: Baptists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey! As a Mormon woman, allow me to point out that Mormon women in Utah had the vote 50 years before women in other parts of the US. Also, as a feminist and a business owner, I certainly don't fit the stereotyped notion people have of Mormon women. In fact, a male colleague of mine told me that he's almost afraid to come into my office wearing pants! In the interest of granting men the same dignity we have long demanded, I did not make the obvious response. barbara In a message dated 98-06-11 15:54:16 EDT, you write: << The following news clip (from USA today online) has convinced me that the Mormons weren't the ones who were converted, but rather, the other way around: >Amending its formal outline of beliefs for the first time in 35 years, the >Southern Baptists adopted the declaration on families Tuesday. The >group also elected a new president who long has been the scourge of the >moderate and liberal wings of the church. >"A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, >even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ," reads the >new 18th Article of the Baptist Faith and Message. >While husband and wife are of equal worth before God, according to the >article, a husband should provide for, protect and lead the family. >A wife has "the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to >serve as his 'helper' in managing their household and nurturing the next >generation." -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Catweasel >