Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9806C" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Covers on books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to invite people to look at the cover Tor is putting on my next book. The reason is because in some senses they are breaking new ground with an atypical action design centered on a strong female figure. Covers showing women as active, rather than passive, aren't unprecedented by any means; a lot of good ones have appeared, particularly in recent years. But even in action designs, the women are still usually presented in a overtly sexualized way, eg, dressed in scraps of disintegrating lace with bodies that look like they came out of a Frederick's of Hollywood catalogue, or the sort of thing like the cover Vonda put up the foreign edition. (Vonda, was it DREAMSNAKE? The one with the naked woman and the snake.) The argument made by publishers is that it sells books. Which may well be true, at least for a portion of the audience. But many women, both writers and readers, have been less than thrilled with the covers. So it may be losing other portions of the audience. Anyway, Tor has listened and decided to do something different with this one. Although I wouldn't say this style cover has never been tried, they are making an effort to push the envelope. The picture itself is one of the most action-oriented designs I've seen on a written novel, for either a male of female character. Most sf and fantasy covers are passive in that they show people standing, sitting, or riding horses (or horse equivalents :-). They may be holding weapons, but often it is in a static position (the ol' Babe-in-a-bronze-bikini-holding a sword. Completely logical, of course. We all go to fight dragons while we're practically naked). Or else the covers shows inanimate objects (eg, ships), or abstract designs. These can be effective, and many wonderful covers exist that aren't active. But what struck me about this one was the portrayal of the female character--the woman is literally bursting out of the center of the picture in a pose that leaves no doubt the intent is to portray her as strong and in command. And good lord, she is actually wearing sane clothes, and has no hint of a come-hither expression on her face. I really hope this works. If it does, Tor may do more of this in the future. I'm taking comments on the cover, both positive and negative, and if the commenter gives persmission I will post them on a web page, so Tor can see the reactions to the cover. I've hesitated to put up a message here because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate on this list to invite people to a page that promotes one's book. The comments from a few weeks ago sounded like people might enjoy hearing more from writers, but I don't want to put anyone off either. I would be interested in knowing how the listserv members feel about it. If it is okay with the list, I will put up the address of the web page. If people would rather I didn't, then anyone who would like to see the page can email me for the web address. Best regards Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:41:56 -0500 Reply-To: djbyrne@athenet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley Subject: Re: Covers on books Comments: To: asaro@sff.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this the location of the new Asaro cover? I like it -- reminds me of cover art for The Red Badge of Courage -- but of course, it's a woman. http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/page_rs.htp cb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:59:40 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbera Radford Subject: Re: Covers on books Comments: To: asaro@sff.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Catherine, I think it's perfectly appropriate to discuss this here, since we have talked about book covers before. That the book is not yet in print doesn't make a difference to me, and rather feels like having an "inside" track on all this. Your offering to share the cover art, doesn't seem at self-promoting, but very much in line with our usual conversation. Barbera ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:53:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Covers on books Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"@ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I, for one, would love to take a gander... er, goose at it! The concerns you raise seem perfectly legitimate in the context of the list, as well... Heather =) __________________________________________ "Output of your job hmaclean: > Reality is only a question of language. Unknown command - "REALITY". Try HELP." -------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:34:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: Covers on books In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980615120624.3e0f6c34@pop.kent.edu> from "Heather MacLean" at Jun 15, 98 10:53:10 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine, I liked the cover. Thinking about how it would look on the shelves of my local bookstore I think I'd pick it up and read the description on the back to see if I wanted to know more. I think its "action oriented" enough that the (male) audience wouldn't be turned off. From your post that seems to be what Tor is worried about; that male readers who usually go for "Babes in chainmail" covers might skip this. I think the cover would catch their eyes as well. Take care, Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:34:04 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Lambda Awards? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I know these were given at the end of May, but I can't seem to find them posted on the 'Net. Anyone have a URL or info? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:50:50 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Covers on books Comments: To: asaro@sff.net In-Reply-To: <3584D0A3.1FF7@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Catherine & all, Dutch edition of Dreamsnake. The cover is so bad that I never sold another book in the Netherlands. http://www.sff.net/people/vonda/Droomslang.html I claim it's the worst cover ever published. Was challenged recently but appear to be winning the vote. Your cover at http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/page_rs.htp is much better. (Duh.) I wish the character were a little better balanced. The position she's in, action-oriented as it is, gives me an impression about midway between comic-book-hero traditional impossible positions, and the poses models get put in that nobody in real life would ever use. But the cover is a little dark on my monitor, so I might be misinterpreting exactly what she's _doing_. Anyway, the claim "naked girls sell books" is specious in my opinion. A cover that was proposed for Dreamsnake (and even painted, and published in a Boris calendar with a copyright line indicating that it _had_ been the cover of an edition of Dreamsnake, which it never was) would have alienated anybody who bought it expecting the book to have some vague general similarity to the cover, and would have given great big screaming "Don't buy me!" vibes to the audience who _would_ have liked the novel. '' So the naked girl might sell one book, but it surely won't cause the book buyer ever again to buy another book by the same author, and it will keep the author's real audience away in droves. Very short-term thinking. (The Boris cover was actually quite beautiful -- but completely inappropriate. I can imagine covers for Dreamsnake in which Snake is naked -- she is not very body-conscious -- but it would have to be a matter of fact type nudity. I don't think that's what the art department has in mind when they say naked girls sell books.) Vonda On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:43:43 -0400, Catherine Asaro wrote: >I would like to invite people to look at the cover Tor is putting on my >next book. ... -- http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda http://www.alexlit.com/ Short stories on line! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:17:41 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Lambda Awards? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A Different Light's website has the list of winners at: www.adlbooks.com/lamw98.html Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:28:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Covers on books -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Catherine-- I like the cover a lot, and I hope it will do well for you. But I think your descriptions of fantasy covers showing passive, or overly and gratuitously sexual female figures is getting rather behind the times. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I really haven't seen that many of them in the last 5 years, at least from the major genre companies. And there's a reason why more cover art shows static figures--they're a lot easier to do! The artists have a limited amount of time to get these illustrations perfect, and a successful static figure is much more apt to make the art director happy than a problematic one in action. And I'd like to say that we here at DAW Books really try our best not to fall into the stereotypes you describe, maybe because we're a woman-owned and run company. We publish many books with action-oriented covers, with both male and female figures, and we've rarely stooped to producing sexually-oriented covers to sell books in the last 10 years. Some of our best action-oriented fantasy art is done by the excellent artist Jody Lee--look at the covers she's done for our Mercedes Lackey titles, or for the fantasy Tanya Huff titles; one good example of a strong female figure in action is on a fantasy book called "No Quarter." And just for one other example, Romas has done some great action covers for our Darkover and Lisanne Norman titles. And everyone's wearing clothes! Debra Euler, DAW Books >>> Catherine Asaro - 6/15/98 3:43 AM >>> I would like to invite people to look at the cover Tor is putting on my next book. The reason is because in some senses they are breaking new ground with an atypical action design centered on a strong female figure. Covers showing women as active, rather than passive, aren't unprecedented by any means; a lot of good ones have appeared, particularly in recent years. But even in action designs, the women are still usually presented in a overtly sexualized way, eg, dressed in scraps of disintegrating lace with bodies that look like they came out of a Frederick's of Hollywood catalogue, or the sort of thing like the cover Vonda put up the foreign edition. (Vonda, was it DREAMSNAKE? The one with the naked woman and the snake.) The argument made by publishers is that it sells books. Which may well be true, at least for a portion of the audience. But many women, both writers and readers, have been less than thrilled with the covers. So it may be losing other portions of the audience. Anyway, Tor has listened and decided to do something different with this one. Although I wouldn't say this style cover has never been tried, they are making an effort to push the envelope. The picture itself is one of the most action-oriented designs I've seen on a written novel, for either a male of female character. Most sf and fantasy covers are passive in that they show people standing, sitting, or riding horses (or horse equivalents :-). They may be holding weapons, but often it is in a static position (the ol' Babe-in-a-bronze-bikini-holding a sword. Completely logical, of course. We all go to fight dragons while we're practically naked). Or else the covers shows inanimate objects (eg, ships), or abstract designs. These can be effective, and many wonderful covers exist that aren't active. But what struck me about this one was the portrayal of the female character--the woman is literally bursting out of the center of the picture in a pose that leaves no doubt the intent is to portray her as strong and in command. And good lord, she is actually wearing sane clothes, and has no hint of a come-hither expression on her face. I really hope this works. If it does, Tor may do more of this in the future. I'm taking comments on the cover, both positive and negative, and if the commenter gives persmission I will post them on a web page, so Tor can see the reactions to the cover. I've hesitated to put up a message here because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate on this list to invite people to a page that promotes one's book. The comments from a few weeks ago sounded like people might enjoy hearing more from writers, but I don't want to put anyone off either. I would be interested in knowing how the listserv members feel about it. If it is okay with the list, I will put up the address of the web page. If people would rather I didn't, then anyone who would like to see the page can email me for the web address. Best regards Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:16:40 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell John Williams Subject: Re: Covers on books -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine & Debra, I have read both of your e-mails and I think you both have very valid comments. I would like to point out one of the greatest Trilogies of all time: "Dragon Lance" Written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. This is a story of friends and warriors. It traces everyone's adventures. Man, Woman, Elf, Dwarf, Kender etc. The cover of Dragons of Autumn Twilight shows the characters in a battle. To the front left of the cover you have a girl - a warrior elf. She is in full battle armour and swinging TWO SWORDS. It is neither a static pose, nor an overtly feminine one as she is killing a "Draconian". If you read the book you will read that she is an elf maiden princess who follows her heart into war (after her childhood sweetheart.). We watch her grow from an immature girl to a hardened warrior who understands the meaning of life and fights for humanity in a war unlike any other. She learns to kill and to survive the terrors of the "Dark Queen". She picks up her armour from the dead enemies on the battle field as she goes. Whilst learning that to be a female - an elven female in a patriarchal society - you must always remember what you are fighting for, that you are as good as any male warrior that has been trained and most importantly she learns that you must have faith in who you are. Isn't that the type of role model we want. I believe that this cover is an excellent example of having perfect Ying & Yang. A hardened warrior but a female to boot. FYI - I live in Australia and an excellent new writer we have based in Sydney is Traci Harding. Look for her book: The Ancient Future - The Dark Age. It is the best SF book produced in quite a long time from us in OZ!!! If you would like info on this book please e-mail me on the below address! Blessed Be, Karen Love c/o- russwill@alphalink.com.au -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Debra Euler Sent: Tuesday, 16 June 1998 5:28 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Covers on books -Reply Catherine-- I like the cover a lot, and I hope it will do well for you. But I think your descriptions of fantasy covers showing passive, or overly and gratuitously sexual female figures is getting rather behind the times. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I really haven't seen that many of them in the last 5 years, at least from the major genre companies. And there's a reason why more cover art shows static figures--they're a lot easier to do! The artists have a limited amount of time to get these illustrations perfect, and a successful static figure is much more apt to make the art director happy than a problematic one in action. And I'd like to say that we here at DAW Books really try our best not to fall into the stereotypes you describe, maybe because we're a woman-owned and run company. We publish many books with action-oriented covers, with both male and female figures, and we've rarely stooped to producing sexually-oriented covers to sell books in the last 10 years. Some of our best action-oriented fantasy art is done by the excellent artist Jody Lee--look at the covers she's done for our Mercedes Lackey titles, or for the fantasy Tanya Huff titles; one good example of a strong female figure in action is on a fantasy book called "No Quarter." And just for one other example, Romas has done some great action covers for our Darkover and Lisanne Norman titles. And everyone's wearing clothes! Debra Euler, DAW Books >>> Catherine Asaro - 6/15/98 3:43 AM >>> I would like to invite people to look at the cover Tor is putting on my next book. The reason is because in some senses they are breaking new ground with an atypical action design centered on a strong female figure. Covers showing women as active, rather than passive, aren't unprecedented by any means; a lot of good ones have appeared, particularly in recent years. But even in action designs, the women are still usually presented in a overtly sexualized way, eg, dressed in scraps of disintegrating lace with bodies that look like they came out of a Frederick's of Hollywood catalogue, or the sort of thing like the cover Vonda put up the foreign edition. (Vonda, was it DREAMSNAKE? The one with the naked woman and the snake.) The argument made by publishers is that it sells books. Which may well be true, at least for a portion of the audience. But many women, both writers and readers, have been less than thrilled with the covers. So it may be losing other portions of the audience. Anyway, Tor has listened and decided to do something different with this one. Although I wouldn't say this style cover has never been tried, they are making an effort to push the envelope. The picture itself is one of the most action-oriented designs I've seen on a written novel, for either a male of female character. Most sf and fantasy covers are passive in that they show people standing, sitting, or riding horses (or horse equivalents :-). They may be holding weapons, but often it is in a static position (the ol' Babe-in-a-bronze-bikini-holding a sword. Completely logical, of course. We all go to fight dragons while we're practically naked). Or else the covers shows inanimate objects (eg, ships), or abstract designs. These can be effective, and many wonderful covers exist that aren't active. But what struck me about this one was the portrayal of the female character--the woman is literally bursting out of the center of the picture in a pose that leaves no doubt the intent is to portray her as strong and in command. And good lord, she is actually wearing sane clothes, and has no hint of a come-hither expression on her face. I really hope this works. If it does, Tor may do more of this in the future. I'm taking comments on the cover, both positive and negative, and if the commenter gives persmission I will post them on a web page, so Tor can see the reactions to the cover. I've hesitated to put up a message here because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate on this list to invite people to a page that promotes one's book. The comments from a few weeks ago sounded like people might enjoy hearing more from writers, but I don't want to put anyone off either. I would be interested in knowing how the listserv members feel about it. If it is okay with the list, I will put up the address of the web page. If people would rather I didn't, then anyone who would like to see the page can email me for the web address. Best regards Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:45:53 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Glenda Alexander Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 13 Jun 1998 to 15 Jun 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-06-16 01:04:05 EDT, you write: << The argument made by publishers is that it sells books. Which may well be true, at least for a portion of the audience. But many women, both writers and readers, have been less than thrilled with the covers. So it may be losing other portions of the audience. >> I am in that portion that does not purchase books with covers I find offensive. It may not be very effective, but it's the only way I have to vote on this issue. I love the cover shown on the web page someone cited. Glenda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:15:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Covers on books -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I always feel a rush of gratitude to cover illustrators who show signs of having read the work in question. I am particularly grateful in the case of Sheri Tepper's True Game series: where Jinian appears on the cover she is portrayed as *not* a spectacular beauty; and the clothes depicted on the cover of Jinian Star Eye seem to match her own description. Similarly the editions I possess for the Darkover series: yes, that was what Marjorie was wearing in the final encounter with the Sharra matrix! And I was really distressed to encounter the "almost naked female warriors in high-heels" syndrome on an English edition. Since I have a weakness for gaymale SF (though most of it seems to be written by women) I also tend to keep an eye out for covers displaying male figures front-and-center without prominent female presence, although this is by no means an infallible test. But it caught my eye for Fiona Patton's "The Stone Prince". Hey, any gaymale readers on this list: do gaymale relationships as depicted by female writers ring true? I have a sneaking suspicion that female readers (who, soppy old me?) may appreciate "romantic" slants more than male readers, but I may be quite wrong. Sheri Tepper's upcoming book ("Six Moon Dance") garnered a star review from Publishers Weekly recently, and, dammit, someone has gone off with the issues for the last few weeks, so I can't give the date! It's due in August, I think. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:08:27 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: Re: Covers on books--Dutch edition of Dreamsnake Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vonda: I just looked at the Dutch cover and the first sound I could utter was "ugh." If I had seen that cover in a bookstore here, it would have made me more than a little skeptical about the prospect of purchasing the original English version. Luckily, this is the first time I've seen that cover! It didn't really surprise me though: the naked "babe"--who would have guessed that a pale-skinned blonde would survive the conditions of the desert without any traces of uneven tanning, cataracts, or skin cancer (no sunglasses or bottles of Bain de Solei were nearby ;)!--looked like many of the young women you see on the streets here (except for the Fredericks-approved breast size), and having lived here as a child I'm sure you are aware of the very open attitude the Dutch have regarding nudity. Luckily, most of the population here is fluent or near-fluent in English. There are many more sf books in the original English than in Dutch translation in most of the large bookstores here. Harlan Ellison only published 2 books in Dutch (that was in the 1970's). I guess he realized that most of the people in Holland who read his stuff do so in English. The cover of Dreamsnake that I first saw (up close) is that of the leather-bound Easton edition. I just received one of those in the mail a few weeks ago. I'd much rather look at the cover on my edition than the cover on the Dutch edition. 8-) By the way, I LOVED the book--couldn't put it down. I ended up reading it from cover to cover non-stop! -Sharon Clark (avoiding Dutch translations of English works as much as possible) > From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" > Subject: Re: Covers on books > > Hi Catherine & all, > > Dutch edition of Dreamsnake. The cover is so bad > that I never sold another book in the Netherlands. > > http://www.sff.net/people/vonda/Droomslang.html > > I claim it's the worst cover ever published. Was > challenged recently but appear to be winning the > vote. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:20:38 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Geoffrey D. Sperl" Subject: Re: Covers on books -Reply Comments: To: "fantastic.&.utopian.literature"@mail2.wayne.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_2980891238_206014_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_2980891238_206014_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit |I would like to point out one of the greatest Trilogies of all time: |"Dragon Lance" Written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. But did you see the original Larry Elmore covers for DRAGONLANCE: CHRONICLES? From back on the original prints (about 12 years ago)? This is all IMHO, of course. While Laurana, the elf you mention, is portrayed stongly, she's still sexualized in that outfit. And the other "good" women - Tika and Goldmoon - are seen as sex objects (Tika has the typical "chick in chainmail" look about her, while Goldmoon, the plainswoman, is dressed in very tight leather showing a decent amount of cleavage). The only one who escapes any sexualizing is Kitara, who is portrayed asexually in her full dragon armor, including helmet. But Kit is the stereotypical tomboy, and she uses sex as a weapon. Once the story is read, all of the characters have their strong points, but the origins of the characters (from a roleplaying campaign Tracy Hickman had learned about - he bugged TSR to do AD&D modules and then convinced them to allow both Weis and himself to write a series of novels) are apparent in the work - they all cover the needed classes to play a successful campaign (Paladin, Thief, Fighters, Magic-User, Cleric, Barbarian, etc.). For my money, DRAGONLANCE: LEGENDS, the follow-up trilogy (which had *absolutely* nothing to do with the DragonLance and thus, to this day, boggles my mind as to why TSR built the franchise around that word), is a much stronger trilogy because Weis and Hickman were able to pull away from the huge ensemble and focus primarily on Caramon and Raistlin and develop their characters. However, I would find it hard to point at any of the women in DL and say that they're strong role models - but, then, neither are any of the men. The DL books written by Weis and Hickman (CHRONICLES, LEGENDS, TALES (they edited those), and DRAGONS OF SUMMER FLAME (the "fourth book" in the CHRONICLES trilogy)) are some grand sword and sorcery storytelling that rank right up there with Bob Howard and Piers Anthony (though Anthony tends to overstay his welcome when it come to his series books - how many Xanth novels are there now? 25? 30? 35?)...they're good brain candy and I'd recommend them to anyone who's in the mood for light fare. But the characters don't have the life that (I assume) their players gave them 15 years ago when Tracy Hickman found out about the campaign... - Geoffrey -- Macintosh users swear by their computers. Windows users swear at their computers. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/8499 --MS_Mac_OE_2980891238_206014_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [*FSFFU*] Covers on books -Reply
|I would like to point out one of the greatest Trilogies of all time:
|"Dragon Lance" Written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.

But did you see the original Larry Elmore covers for DRAGONLANCE: CHRONICLE= S? From back on the original prints (about 12 years ago)? This is all IMHO= , of course. While Laurana, the elf you mention, is portrayed stongly, she'= s still sexualized in that outfit. And the other "good" women - T= ika and Goldmoon - are seen as sex objects (Tika has the typical "chick= in chainmail" look about her, while Goldmoon, the plainswoman, is dres= sed in very tight leather showing a decent amount of cleavage). The only on= e who escapes any sexualizing is Kitara, who is portrayed asexually in her f= ull dragon armor, including helmet. But Kit is the stereotypical tomboy, an= d she uses sex as a weapon.

Once the story is read, all of the characters have their strong points, but= the origins of the characters (from a roleplaying campaign Tracy Hickman ha= d learned about - he bugged TSR to do AD&D modules and then convinced th= em to allow both Weis and himself to write a series of novels) are apparent = in the work - they all cover the needed classes to play a successful campaig= n (Paladin, Thief, Fighters, Magic-User, Cleric, Barbarian, etc.). For my m= oney, DRAGONLANCE: LEGENDS, the follow-up trilogy (which had *absolutely* no= thing to do with the DragonLance and thus, to this day, boggles my mind as t= o why TSR built the franchise around that word), is a much stronger trilogy = because Weis and Hickman were able to pull away from the huge ensemble and f= ocus primarily on Caramon and Raistlin and develop their characters.

However, I would find it hard to point at any of the women in DL and say th= at they're strong role models - but, then, neither are any of the men. The = DL books written by Weis and Hickman (CHRONICLES, LEGENDS, TALES (they edite= d those), and DRAGONS OF SUMMER FLAME (the "fourth book" in the CH= RONICLES trilogy)) are some grand sword and sorcery storytelling that rank r= ight up there with Bob Howard and Piers Anthony (though Anthony tends to ove= rstay his welcome when it come to his series books - how many Xanth novels a= re there now? 25? 30? 35?)...they're good brain candy and I'd recommend t= hem to anyone who's in the mood for light fare. But the characters don't ha= ve the life that (I assume) their players gave them 15 years ago when Tracy = Hickman found out about the campaign...

- Geoffrey

--
Macintosh users swear by their computers.
Windows users swear at their computers.

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--MS_Mac_OE_2980891238_206014_MIME_Part-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:47:19 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Covers on books--Dutch edition of Dreamsnake In-Reply-To: <3587251B.1EF1A92A@cas.et.tudelft.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the kind words on Dreamsnake, Sharon, I was kind of tickled to sell a couple of books in the Netherlands, because I lived there for a while when I was a kid. Best, Vonda On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:08:27 +0100, you wrote: >Vonda: > >I just looked at the Dutch cover and the first sound I could utter was >"ugh." If I had seen that cover in a bookstore here, it would have made >me more than a little skeptical about the prospect of purchasing the >original English version. Luckily, this is the first time I've seen >that cover! It didn't really surprise me though: the naked "babe"--who >would have guessed that a pale-skinned blonde would survive the >conditions of the desert without any traces of uneven tanning, >cataracts, or skin cancer (no sunglasses or bottles of Bain de Solei >were nearby ;)!--looked like many of the young women you see on the >streets here (except for the Fredericks-approved breast size), and >having lived here as a child I'm sure you are aware of the very open >attitude the Dutch have regarding nudity. > >Luckily, most of the population here is fluent or near-fluent in >English. There are many more sf books in the original English than in >Dutch translation in most of the large bookstores here. Harlan Ellison >only published 2 books in Dutch (that was in the 1970's). I guess he >realized that most of the people in Holland who read his stuff do so in >English. > >The cover of Dreamsnake that I first saw (up close) is that of the >leather-bound Easton edition. I just received one of those in the mail >a few weeks ago. I'd much rather look at the cover on my edition than >the cover on the Dutch edition. 8-) > >By the way, I LOVED the book--couldn't put it down. I ended up reading >it from cover to cover non-stop! > >-Sharon Clark >(avoiding Dutch translations of English works as much as possible) > >> From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" >> Subject: Re: Covers on books >> >> Hi Catherine & all, >> >> Dutch edition of Dreamsnake. The cover is so bad >> that I never sold another book in the Netherlands. >> >> http://www.sff.net/people/vonda/Droomslang.html >> >> I claim it's the worst cover ever published. Was >> challenged recently but appear to be winning the >> vote. >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:59:59 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becky Miller Subject: Introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello all, I have been lurking for several months now and I have decided it's time to introduce myself. I am a 40 something single Feminist with two grown children and two Grandchildren. I have always been an avid reader and graduated from romance novels in my early 20's although I have always read science fiction. I used to read Andre Norton when I was in Jr. High. I read almost exclusively books by Women and my favorite Author is Marge Piercy. I am a sometimes student of Wicca and I love jigsaw puzzles, quilting, and ceramics. Lately I have been dabbling with rubber stamping. I am a veritable cesspool of this, that & the other thing. I have read Nicolla Griffith's books and enjoyed them very much, as well as Suzy McKee Charknas's books. Have any of you ever read "The Fifth Sacred Thing" by Starhawk. It is Feminist Utopian fiction and a very wonderful book. She also wrote a prequel, "Walking to Mercury" about the events leading up to "The Fifth Sacred Thing" but this is more fiction rather than science fiction although it is pretty good. I am enjoying the opportunity of expanding my reading choices although I have always read for enjoyment and not for intellectual discussion. I am re'reading the "Mists of Avalon" which was my introduction to Wicca and I am enjoying it just as much as the first time I read it. I will close now and let everyone get back to the reason for the discussion group. Becky Miller FEMSIFI@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:14:30 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DM DE-KOCK Subject: Re: Introduction Comments: cc: dekockdm@aston.ac.uk In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:59:59 EDT." <9fe68eb9.358874a0@aol.com> Hello all, I was inspired by Becky Miller's recent email to come out of the closet myself. I am a 30-something feminist, currently studying computer science at Aston University in Birmingham. Before this I was a teacher, but taking a change in career direction (and leaving a 12-year relationship that had gone wrong) last autumn I have noticed I have changed in a lot of ways. I used to read very little fiction before, and no science fiction, but I suddenly developed a curiosity for it. I was particularly intrigued by a radio program about women's science fiction writing in which they looked at ways these authors played with notions of gender. Unfortunately, I can't remember any of the authors they mentioned, and I can find very little science fiction by women on the shelves of bookshops. So far, I have only found the Charnas books which are anything like the sort of thing I like to read. It's a good idea to get recommendations from other readers as it has given me a starting point at least. If I find anything really exciting I'll let you know! Dawn de Kock ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:19:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: Introduction In-Reply-To: from "DM DE-KOCK" at Jun 18, 98 08:14:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following Becky and Dawn's lead, I'll decloak as well. I'm a Ph.D. candidate in English at the University of Pennsylvania, a lifelong spec fic reader, and--in eleven days--the teacher of a summer course on Women Writers of Science Fiction (more on this below). Sic scribit DM DE-KOCK: > > gender. Unfortunately, I can't remember any of the authors they > mentioned, and I can find very little science fiction by women on the > shelves of bookshops. So far, I have only found the Charnas books > which are anything like the sort of thing I like to read. It's a good idea > to get recommendations from other readers as it has given me a > starting point at least. If I find anything really exciting I'll let you > know! Dawn, Go to the following URL -- http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/teaching/wwsf98.html -- and click on the link to the course reading list. I think it's a pretty strong list, and I've made sure to include the publication information for the anthologies I used in putting it together. Everyone Else, You can go to the page as well; the syllabus is fixed, but I'm always interested in adjusting the course for future iterations. Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * "He ran," the unicorn said. "You must never run from anything immortal. It attracts their attention." - Peter S. Beagle, _The Last Unicorn_, 1968 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:07:21 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Woolger Subject: Re: Introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I guess I should come out too. I've been around about 3 weeks now. I'm a computer sys admin for the govt. Been reading science fiction since grade school. Found this list through another OT listing on another list. And decided to come and check you all out. I'm a reader. And am always interested in new writers to check out. I'll probably be quiet from now on. I tend not to post to my lists much. Laura ******************************** ** The road is smooth ** ** Why do you throw rocks ** ** before you? ** ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:19:10 -0500 Reply-To: djbyrne@athenet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley Subject: Into Darkness Peering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know anything about the following edited volume? It seems to be one of a paltry few recent resources that actually discusses *both* gender and ethnicity in the context of sci fi. I've asked our library to buy it because it contains chapters on both Achebe and Conrad. I'd like to hear from others who might have seen this volume, Into Darkness Peering : Race and Color in the Fantastic (Contributions to the Study of Science Fiction and Fantasy, No. 74) by Elisabeth Anne Leonard (Editor). Hardcover - 208 pages (July 30, 1997). Greenwood Publishing. Candice PS By the way, Mr. Barrett's "Women Writers of Science Fiction" course page at Penn is pretty neat! Good job! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:34:49 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell John Williams Subject: Re: Covers on books -Reply - Frances Green In-Reply-To: <19980616.181512.-283279.0.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Frances, I hope this finds you well. I am an avid reader of Sheri S. Tepper and I was hoping you may know if there was a site particularly for her. Where I can talk to others like me about her work. I have 34 out of a possible 52 books or short stories. Some of which (the remaining 18) are complete all - in - one trilogy books or singular books which I have in a complete - all - in - one series book. If you can help me or would like to discuss this further please do so on the address below. BTW: The cover on The Song of Mavin Manyshaped - Mavin was portrayed as what I call a homely strengthening woman not a sexual or lifeless woman. Blessed Be!!! Karen Love c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Frances Green Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 1998 8:15 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Covers on books -Reply I always feel a rush of gratitude to cover illustrators who show signs of having read the work in question. I am particularly grateful in the case of Sheri Tepper's True Game series: where Jinian appears on the cover she is portrayed as *not* a spectacular beauty; and the clothes depicted on the cover of Jinian Star Eye seem to match her own description. Similarly the editions I possess for the Darkover series: yes, that was what Marjorie was wearing in the final encounter with the Sharra matrix! And I was really distressed to encounter the "almost naked female warriors in high-heels" syndrome on an English edition. Since I have a weakness for gaymale SF (though most of it seems to be written by women) I also tend to keep an eye out for covers displaying male figures front-and-center without prominent female presence, although this is by no means an infallible test. But it caught my eye for Fiona Patton's "The Stone Prince". Hey, any gaymale readers on this list: do gaymale relationships as depicted by female writers ring true? I have a sneaking suspicion that female readers (who, soppy old me?) may appreciate "romantic" slants more than male readers, but I may be quite wrong. Sheri Tepper's upcoming book ("Six Moon Dance") garnered a star review from Publishers Weekly recently, and, dammit, someone has gone off with the issues for the last few weeks, so I can't give the date! It's due in August, I think. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:40:01 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Review: SIX MOON DANCE by Sheri S. Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apologies if I sent this already -- I'm on several lists and news groups, and I confess I do occasionally lose track. :) SIX MOON DANCE by Sheri S. Tepper I am an unabashed Tepper fan; even though I don't review every one of her books, it's generally safe to assume I read and enjoy all of her efforts, whether in her SF mode or her pseudonymous mystery works. Certain themes resonate within her writing: ecological consequences, male/female dynamics, and religious concepts. All of these are present in SIX MOON DANCE. SIX MOON DANCE starts on a planet with reverse sexism as we know it. I love the passage about how men aren't capable of making complex decisions because they have such a steady unchanging stream of hormones, while women *are*, precisely because of their changes (according to their strictures). Mix in a few off worlders with gender issues of their own, some mysterious manifestations of the planetary consciousness and a mechanical being set to arbitrate over all of the known worlds, and one has a rich book where the story is not overwhelmed by the message. There are a few surprising twists for regular Tepper readers as well. Avon Eos in July, $23.00. --MeH Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:45:38 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Nicola's modesty Comments: cc: NicolaZ@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When Nicola provided me with the link to the 1998 LAMBDA awards, she might have mentioned that BENDING THE LANDSCAPE, which she edited with Steve Pagel won in the SF category. I guess modesty forbade. Congratulations, Nicola! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 07:07:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: Review: SIX MOON DANCE by Sheri S. Tepper In-Reply-To: from "Maryelizabeth Hart" at Jun 19, 98 06:40:01 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks! Maryelizabeth writes: > > SIX MOON DANCE by Sheri S. Tepper > >[snip] > and enjoy all of her efforts, whether in her SF mode or her > pseudonymous mystery works. Certain themes resonate within > her writing: ecological consequences, male/female dynamics, >[snip] Tepper writes mysteries too? What is her pseudonym? I'd love to read some of her mysteries. In addition to SF and horror its my other favorite genre. :-) I like Tepper's SF work very much also although I find she can be a bit too didactic at times. Take care, Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:47:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Review: SIX MOON DANCE by Sheri S. Tepper In-Reply-To: <199806201107.HAA06761@viking.cris.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Hi folks! > > Maryelizabeth writes: > > > > SIX MOON DANCE by Sheri S. Tepper > > > >[snip] > > and enjoy all of her efforts, whether in her SF mode or her > > pseudonymous mystery works. Certain themes resonate within > > her writing: ecological consequences, male/female dynamics, > >[snip] > > Tepper writes mysteries too? What is her pseudonym? I'd love to read some > of her mysteries. In addition to SF and horror its my other favorite > genre. :-) I like Tepper's SF work very much also although I find she can > be a bit too didactic at times. > > Take care, > Caroline > Tepper writes mysteries as A.J. Orde and B. J. Oliphant. She also writes horror fiction as E. E. Horlak and some very early poetry appeared as by Sheri S. Eberhart, her married name. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:07:07 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell John Williams Subject: Introduction. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I hope this finds you all well. I have written before to the mailing list but I haven't introduced myself. My name is Karen and I am particularly interested in this site to read information from around the world about SF. I live in Melbourne, Australia and I seem to be way behind with Authors as I have spent the last 8 years putting together a collection of Sheri S. Tepper's books and haven't really read much else in the way of SF. I now mainly read for my book research and study or for my new business venture that I am hopefully kicking off shortly. My interests are: Wicca - studying & practising for 8 Years, History, Art History, Art, Writing, and Reading. I have studied a course on Western Philosophy and Religion through the ages, an Art History Course and a Bachelor of Arts in Literature Analysis, Writing and Psychology. I also enjoy Music and doing Astrology Reports and birth name analysis. I have read a lot of interesting e-mails on this site and I hope they keep coming. BTW: Geoffrey D. Sperl - Thankyou for your reply to my e-mail when I have done more research on this I'll send an e-mail back as the DL & DD series (I believe) has a lot of conflicting ideas as I do at the moment in relation to strengths and weaknesses etc.. Well thank you for your time, BLESSED BE!!! Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:36:19 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell John Williams Subject: Tepper, Sheri S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, In relation to Sheri S. Tepper does anyone know whether: The Gardener The Gazebo The Gourmet Prince Shadowbow Raccoon Music Were only short stories produced in journals Russell Williams russwill@alphalink.com.au