Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9806D" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:31:11 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: 'quality' of lesbian writing In-Reply-To: <199805111426.JAA03671@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 11 May 1998 09:26:29 -0500, Robin Reid wrote: >One thing that I've had circulating in my mind for some time--have NO idea >where it came from-- Possibly from Kate Wilhelm, quoting me--"We'll know the millennium has arrived when a woman can do a job in a mediocre way and nobody raises an eyebrow about it." But I said that almost thirty years ago; the millennium has almost arrived; I don't see much change in the dual assumption: one particular class of people is competent by assumption; everybody else has to prove it. Vonda >is that true liberation is achieved when formerly >oppressed groups have the freedom to be mediocre....l ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 02:16:41 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Snow Crash Content-Type: text/plain Sorry for the late response; I was on vacation, saying goodbye to Hawaii before I move to (*choke*) Kansas. Wanted to comment on this though, since no one else seemed to. >From: Candice Bradley >Subject: new to list; cyberpunk; n. lee wood > >I just joined this list and am pretty excited about it. I'm an >anthropology professor at Lawrence University in Wisconsin, and am just >finishing up the grading for my first ever "Cyberculture" course. I'm >also a mom of three (2 boys, 14, 12, 1 girl, 6), a flute player, >origamiist, and driver of the ubiquitous urban Caravan. > >The Cyberculture course was a real adventure. It was the first time I >taught a class with more male students than female, but it wasn't the >first time I had "boys" in the classroom who enjoyed playing alpha male >primate dominance games. Although the culture of the internet is >something I've studied and find entertaining to teach, I was not yet a >cyberpunk fiction reader. On the advice of a student, I chose -- as our >one cyberpunk scifi selection -- Stephenson's *Snow Crash*. We also >viewed "Strange Days" that week. > >Chaos ensued the following week, and a line was drawn in the sand. In >one corner sat the alpha males, cyberpunk know-it-all wannabes; at the >back of the classroom sat a lone Freshman male whose favorite author is >Sherri Tepper and who, incidentally, missed class to attend the Madison >conference; and scattered throughout the room were the feminists, >artists, anthropologists, folks of color, and otherwise "Others." This >latter group argued that *Snow Crash* and "Strange Days" were sexist, >racist, misogynistic, and not all that well done anyway. Um, I hated "Strange Days" (except for the scenes where Bassett was on without the weak white guy, kicking ass and taking names; and why hasn't she gotten any more parts like that since?) but I really dug _Snow Crash_. I wouldn't call it feminist SF, but it did play with some of the same mental toys as a lot of feminist SF: language's effect on reality, impure mixed forms of governance, conformity and rebellion, bad sex... Seriously, you mean nobody in your "Others" liked any of the neat bits in the book? Not the character of YT (who very nearly has Bad Sex with the principle Bad Guy in the book, and goes conspicuously unpunished for it)? Not the riffs on global economics? Not the patchwork polyarchy in the book (what was it, "Uncle Hong's Greater Hong Kong"?) Not the vision of cyberspace which takes such issues as bandwidth and economics into account? Not the wicked parody of Mad-Max-style machismo in the whole part about the hero's job as Pizza Deliverator? Not the Pynchonesque secret history that takes up a whole chunk of the middle of the book? Now, I'm no fanatical Stephenson fan, but I thought the book was well thought out and well executed, with a lot to chew on. I also don't remember it being all that offensive. So, as usual, I'm wondering how you read the book so differently from me -- maybe the class had something to do with it. I know there are fans out there so distasteful to me that it would be hard not to automatically dislike anything they seemed to love, regardless of its merits. Yours, Danny > >I had discovered feminist cyberpunk too late for this course this term. >Oddly, the boys in the corner were not aware that feminist cyberpunk >even existed. I now have a relatively good list (your feminist >cyberpunk file needs updating!) and a pile of scholarly references on >the subject. I would love advice too. > >I'm reading a book by N. Lee Wood called Looking for the Mahdi. It's a >scifi spy thriller, nicely written (the woman can write), starring a >transgendered Arab-American woman journalist and her fabricant (cyborg?) >sidekick. Sure beats *Snow Crash*. > >Nice meeting y'all. Happy to be here. > >Candice Bradley ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:54:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: Snow Crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm glad Daniel reopened the discussion on Snow Crash. I liked this book, but I found it quite stressful to read. I like hard-edged and brainy books, and it was both of those things. But to me it was so very right-wing that it was also massively irritating. I wanted to have a big row with the writer, as well as congratulating him. In fact reading this book helped me to think through an idea I have about how the politics of a writer affects the moral universe of a story - perhaps people might like to comment? IMHO a 'right wing' book has an arbitrary morality, where a favoured few are saved and other characters are simply written off. In the Diamond Age (the next book by NS) the heroine is saved and her brother is destroyed, and it seems to be done in a rather callous way. It's like 'might is right' or perhaps more accurately 'being lucky is all that matters'. In a more 'left wing' SF book just as many people can get killed, but there isn't the same distinction between 'elite' characters who you are supposed to care for, and 'trash' who can be wiped out in droves. In old fashioned male-centred novels we often find that women are in the 'trash' category. They scream, they get raped and killed, but unless the hero falls in love with them, they aren't that important. I don't think NS trashes characters on the basis of gender (if he did I wouldn't have completed the book). Oh - one other thing I don't like about Snow Crash - highly sexualised portrayal of a very young girl. makes my skin crawl. Alison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:22:29 -0500 Reply-To: djbyrne@athenet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley Subject: Re: Snow Crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was curious about Daniel's reaction to my post on Snow Crash (and I'm glad Alison responded to Daniel!). I had written only about my college students' reaction to the book, not my own. Every student in the class, male and female, whatever their politics, was disappointed that the Stephenson decided to have the teenage heroine sleep with Raven at the end. A couple of the men felt it was an inevitable, acceptable part of the plot. The rest found the sex unnecessary and distracting. The class was more divided about Stephenson's treatment of race and ethnicity. Some (the guys who were avid cyberpunk readers) saw Stephenson's use of race as a valid way to characterize and identify individuals and groups in the novel -- and a plausible future scenario. Others found the racial and ethnic characterizations -- both in Reality and in the Metaverse -- to be a cheap shorthand to avoid real character development. In her book, Playing in the Dark, Toni Morrison argues that race and ethnic identity in are used by writers as a sort of emotional shorthand. A good example of race as a shorthand may be found in Conrad's Heart of Darkness (a magnificent book nevertheless). Snow Crash is full of shrewd and emotionless Japanese, Asians with swords, angry punky blacks, and racist, segregated whites. Stephenson uses the same stereotypes when dealing with class issues. These stereotyped images date the book and are distracting. As for Stephenson's writing style, none of these young people (there were 23 in the class) thought Stephenson to be an exceptional writer. He is no Ursula LeGuin. His language is not crafted and poetic. He is longwinded. Example: the 100 or so page battle scene at the end of the book. But bear in mind that these students attend Lawrence, which has a Freshman Studies course (Plato, Conrad, Faulkner, Woolf, etc.) and emphasises writing excellence and "developing a private life of the mind." I think Alison's analysis of the politics is a good one, as is her question about how the politics of the writer affects the moral universe of a story. I am looking for more enlightened renditions of cyberworld futures. Candice ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Introduction In-Reply-To: <9fe68eb9.358874a0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Welcome Becky, and all the others who recently spoke up. I hope we will continue to hear from you. At 09:59 PM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I have read Nicolla Griffith's books and enjoyed them very much, as well as >Suzy McKee Charknas's books. Have any of you ever read "The Fifth Sacred >Thing" by Starhawk. It is Feminist Utopian fiction and a very wonderful book. >She also wrote a prequel, "Walking to Mercury" about the events leading up to >"The Fifth Sacred Thing" but this is more fiction rather than science fiction >although it is pretty good. I really enjoyed The Fifth Sacred Thing, especially since I grew up in southern California and live in San Francisco. Sometimes I think that current San Francisco city politics makes Starhawk's vision of inclusion within the realm of possibility - certainly the nuttier parts anyway. I think she has some wonderful ideas, and I find myself remembering bits of it when I see things in town - the island in Stowe Lake, for example, and Bernal Heights. And I think of that story when I plant borage and lavender for the bees. Another interesting story set in San Francisco is Pat Murphy's "The City, Not Long After." For a long time after I read that story, I used to imagine seeing mechanical bugs or showers of blossoms while walking downtown. jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Introduction In-Reply-To: <19980622161213792.AAA173@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > > I really enjoyed The Fifth Sacred Thing, especially since I grew up in > southern California and live in San Francisco. Sometimes I think that > current San Francisco city politics makes Starhawk's vision of inclusion > within the realm of possibility - certainly the nuttier parts anyway. I > think she has some wonderful ideas, and I find myself remembering bits of > it when I see things in town - the island in Stowe Lake, for example, and > Bernal Heights. And I think of that story when I plant borage and lavender > for the bees. > Yes, but I have been very distressed by the way Ecotopians dismiss us desert dwellers as a pack of right-wing fanatics and/or slaves and Ecologically Inkorrekt. > Another interesting story set in San Francisco is Pat Murphy's "The City, > Not Long After." For a long time after I read that story, I used to > imagine seeing mechanical bugs or showers of blossoms while walking downtown. > John Shirley's "City Come A-Walking" was good, too, but I disliked his characterization of The City as male. She's a lady, an old courtesan in Victorian lace and feathers.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Halfway Human by Carolyn Ives Gilman In-Reply-To: <19980622161213792.AAA173@jennifer.actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I finally had time to read Halfway Human this week, finishing the entire 472 pages in about 4 days. What a fine novel. I didn't read many of the postings on the book when the discussion was going on because I knew I'd be reading it soon and didn't want anything to be given away. I do remember, however, that there was some disappointment or disagreement over the ending, but I don't remember the specifics. Was it the fact that Magister Galele turned out to be a pedophile? Although this made me sad, it was, I think, entirely believable. On the surface, pedophiles don't usually seem all that different from anyone else. Many hold responsible jobs and are highly intelligent. For obvious reasons, many are also drawn to teaching. Also, sickening as it may be to have to think about this, the key to being a successful pedophile is that the person is often quite good with kids. This book should be a prime contender for the P.K. Dick Award this year and I've recommended it to Jeff Vandermeer who is one of the judges. Carolyn, if you're reading this, I look forward to talking to you about Halfway Human at Diversicon Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:51:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Seven reasons why I loved The Sun and the Moon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Seven reasons why I loved The Sun and the Moon: 1. It's a book that describes how horrible the early Catholic church was to women and animals, like the Mists of Avalon, but in this story the hero overcomes this oppression and achieves happiness. 2. The hero (Marie-Josephe) gets her period, and it even helps move the story along. 3. Marie-Josephe notices that the statue of Apollo bringing the dawn is going the wrong way, and it bothers her. A lot. 4. Most of the men are lame, old, dwarf, gay, or otherwise not your typical Hollywood movie types, but they're all real characters and some of them are even loveable. 5. Even though I guessed who the love interest would be, I really couldn't figure out how the story would end. There were enough plot twists and false endings that I wasn't sure until it happened. 6. The Queen of Nubia. Wow. 7. The beauty of the final scene. What a wonderful image to leave with. Question: When Mlle d'Armagnac and Mme Lucifer are smoking, teasing Marie-Josephe, and speculating about the illicit talents of Yves, Mme Lucifer claims she could commit one more sin with him than Mlle d'Armagnac, who responds "Why, two more, I believe -- as you are married." Why two more? Also, it's not true that this book doesn't qualify for "alternative history" because there aren't any wars. The sea people declare war on the men of the land, and the Church declared war on the sea people, and of course the Church wages war throughout with women and other lesser beings, and Protestants. Thank you, Vonda! Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:30:29 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Jennifer K's list on THE MOON AND THE SUN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >2. The hero (Marie-Josephe) gets her period, and it even helps move the >story along. > I admired this too! Glad someone else pointed it out! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:07:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: CRONES Update Comments: cc: Melnjo , shander@cdsnet.net, Maryelizabeth Hart , Ines Lassnig , ligeia@concentric.com, Robin Reid , Katharine Woods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all CRONES and potential CRONES, Update of our progress: Well it has been another month and despite ongoing fires in Florida (offer a word to the goddess for rain, almost every county has fires now) and sinfully hot temperatures our fearless web designer, Lilith, charges on. She is truly a wonder and is making stupendous progress on the web page. For new folks on the list, Crazy Russ Old-timers Needing Essays to Survive (CRONES) is an FSFFU affiliated book discussion of Russ's "What Are We Fighting For?". To start, we will be setting up an online forum on this page to which folks can post their comments/view comments. The opening page will indicate what chapter we are targeted to read and when, and then you can move to the forum to post. We will also be setting up an archive site to save postings over time. Then folks can catch up, refer back etc., etc. Future developments on the page will be at the whims of the group. For instance, shall we discuss her other books of essays after this book? Shall we invite her for some on line discussion. The universe is the limit, right? Consider this your first invitation to make comment on how you would like to tackle the consumption of Russ's essays: what order, timeframes, etc. So as not to tie up FSFFU, please post directly to myself - donnaneely@earthlink.net . The reading/discussion portion is completely a collective effort once the site is prepared. Each person has equal voice. Though I am happy to continue gophering and administering on our behalf. At least until someone realizes how much fun it is and demands the position. If anyone cannot find a copy of the book let me know. I have been shipping copies world wide with great pleasure! Donna Simone donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:11:23 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Snow Crash Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/22/98 7:29:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alison@ALISONPAGE.DEMON.CO.UK writes: << In a more 'left wing' SF book just as many people can get killed, but there isn't the same distinction between 'elite' characters who you are supposed to care for, and 'trash' who can be wiped out in droves. >> I wish--I deeply wish--that I could agree. However, experience teaches that there is no large political block, be it conservative or liberal, left wing or right, that can presently lay claim to such lofty inclusionism. Left wingers seem just as quick to write off and kill of their nemesis as the other way around. It seems to me that unless we're constantly vigilant, our human nature drags us down into the I'm-right-and-the-Devil-take-the-rest pig headedness that's evident in Islamic Fundamentalism and the Shinning Path alike. The right-wingers claim, "There's only one right thing to do, and I know what THAT is." The left-wing argument seems to run, "Everybody ought to have the right to do whatever they want--except disagree with us." IMHO, the very best writers are those who can set aside their own personal beliefs while writing, and create a world rich with diversity as our own world always is. Only such a diversely peopled world seems believable to me. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Very Best Writers (was Snow Crash) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Re: J Hollomon>IMHO, the very best writers are those who can set aside their own personal beliefs while writing, and create a world rich with diversity as our own world always is. Only such a diversely peopled world seems believable to me.> Okay, I have to ask........... which writers in your mind have accomplished this? And what/where does one find the specific evidence of [the authors] own personal beliefs that permits measuring their successful setting aside of such in text? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:41:29 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: Snow Crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me - > << In a more 'left wing' SF book just as many people can get killed, but there > isn't the same distinction between 'elite' characters who you are supposed > to care for, and 'trash' who can be wiped out in droves. > >> Jim - > I wish--I deeply wish--that I could agree. However, experience teaches that > there is no large political block, be it conservative or liberal, left wing or > right, that can presently lay claim to such lofty inclusionism. But there are writers who make an effort to do so - with lesser or greater success of course. They may not be 'Left wing' in their private lives, but it seems to me that if they refuse to classify some people as 'expendable' because of class, race or sex then they are being left wing in their writing. Modern Hollywood Sf seems to me to be terribly eager to 'trash' characters, sometimes by the millions with hardly a tear. Then go to massive lengths to save the hero's dog or something. :-) Alison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:39:31 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 13 Jun 1998 to 15 Jun 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all. Sorry for being so long in getting back in regards to the covers; I've been submerged in a book deadline (going over a copyedit for SEAS). Thank you all for your many comments, here and in email! People had a wide variety of reactions. Many wondered just what exactly happens in the next instant, when the character hits the spike. (Although the scene is based on an actual scene in the book, a lot of artistic license is involved in the picture .) I will put up the web page with the comments I have permission to post as soon as I get my act together enough to make the page . The cover is at: http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ at the link at the top of the page that says "Cover to =The Radiant Seas.=" Debra makes a lot of good points about covers. In fact, it was one thing I noticed when I was going through the covers here in my own library. Also, the more active covers tend to be for =fantasy= rather than science fiction. My impression is that science fiction is the genre traditionally perceived (or perhaps misperceived?) as more "male," and so tends to be seen as more active, whereas fantasy is perceived as more "female" and so tends to be seen as more passive. In truth, I doubt fantasy readers see it that way, though. I certainly never have. In any case, the covers give a veeeery different story. And more often than not, it is women in action poses rather than men. To some extent the covers I have in my library area self-selecting sample, based on the type of books I buy. However, many of them were sent to me by other writers or publishers, so it is only partially a self-selected sample. One of my favorite covers recently is on THE GOLDEN KEY, by Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, and Kate Elliott. It is even more fascinating after you read the book. The complexity, the intricacy of the painting, and the many levels within the picture, both in terms of the picture itself and the meanings layered into it, are a real accomplishment. I have a review of THE GOLDEN KEY, but it is too long to put up here, almost 2000 words. If anyone would like to read it, and see the cover, it is at SFSite: http://www.sfsite.com/oct97a/gold18.htm I should add that I also like many covers with abstract art, inanimate objects (like the canonical space ship/station), or pictures in less active poses. But my own personal preference is a picture of people doing something, not necessarily exploding with action, but involved in some activity with significance to the story. It's one reason why clinch covers on romance novels don't do much for me; they tend to be generic, without much relevance to the story (well, actually, in some cases that is relevant to the story, unfortunately). One of the best clinch covers I ever saw is actually on a fantasy novel, THE WHITE RAVEN, by Diana Paxson. It is =gorgeous= and evokes a real sense of the story. Other intriguing factoids I came across while doing the survey of my library here: the cover for the July 1996 =Asimov's,= by Paul Youll (a neat picture, by the way), is a lot like the November 1982 =Amazing Science Fiction Stories= cover, by Michael Whelen. Both show a dragon in about the same position, with a human being standing within its folded wings. The person on the Amazing Stories cover is a guy, with his clothes on, a snazzy looking flight suit. The Asimov's cover shows a woman who is (surprise) naked. One thing I noticed, at least with the selection of magazines I have here: Analog shows the most action poses and the most aliens. Asimov's shows the most naked women in passive poses. Both Analog and Asimov's have a lot of covers with starscapes, that is, stars, planets, ships, and so on. Same for Science Fiction Age. F&SF shows the most women with their clothes on, or abstract paintings, and Realms of Fantasy shows the most dragons. Realms also has the most action poses overall. Best regards Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:07:06 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: CRONES Update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-06-24 20:23:32 EDT, you write: << To start, we will be setting up an online forum on this page to which folks can post their comments/view comments. The opening page will indicate what chapter we are targeted to read and when, and then you can move to the forum to post. We will also be setting up an archive site to save postings over time. Then folks can catch up, refer back etc., etc. Future developments on the page will be at the whims of the group. >> OK, sounds good but--- what page are you talking about, & where is it? The FSFFU site? An address would be helpful. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:18:10 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: book covers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" GOLDEN KEY is indeed marvelous. BTW, I noticed that Jennifer Roberson is offering hardcovers of it signed by all three authors via the Basement Full of Books. I love the cover for THE WHITE RAVEN so much I have a print of it signed by Thomas Canty and Diane Paxson. And I don't buy much art -- sorry, but it takes up wall space, where I might put a bookshelf! I also like the cover art on SWORD-DANCER, the first Tiger and Del book. It has to be one of my faves. And on a non-sf book, the cover art on Nicola's BLUE PLACE is great! I read BROWN GIRL IN THE RING, and will do my review of it as soon as I get back from the Lilith Festival! Look for it Monday or so! Have a great weekend! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:02:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: CRONES Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologize profusely. The test page does not do anything yet but go to more test applications so I did not want to get people "excited" and not provide anything real. will follow up with an address at next update and when readers can successfully post there. Keep the feedback coming! :) thanks, donna donnaneely@earthlink.net >In a message dated 98-06-24 20:23:32 EDT, K. Friello writes: >>OK, sounds good but--- what page are you talking about, & where is it? The >FSFFU site? An address would be helpful. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:58:37 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" TIME magazine has recently published an obituary on feminism, not to mention some backlash oriented critique, in order to get a discussion going - as they say. TIME also runs a poll where they ask four-five questions on feminism, among them: are you a feminist, is feminism, dead, what do feminism mean to you. In order not to get a total misrepresentation of reality considering the probable political background of most TIME readers, would listmembers here please consider answering the poll questions. You get to the polling page at the TIME cover page: > http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1998/dom/980629/cover1.html > Go prove that feminism is far from dead!! Britt-Inger.Johansson@konstvet.uu.se Ph.D. Dept. of Art History Uppsala slott, Soedra tornet H:0 752 37 Uppsala Uppsala University ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:32:17 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vonda N. McIntyre" Subject: Re: Seven reasons why I loved The Moon and the Sun In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19980622212817.00ddfc70@mail.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jennifer, Thanks much for the kind words. On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:51:52 -0700, Jennifer Krauel wrote: >Seven reasons why I loved The Moon and the Sun: > >1. It's a book that describes how horrible the early Catholic church was >to women and animals, like the Mists of Avalon, but in this story the hero >overcomes this oppression and achieves happiness. > I've actually gotten a lot of criticism for my supposed anti-Xian bias in this book... by people who apparently perceive Marie-Josephe as something other than the devout Catholic she starts out as, and the less naive woman who maintains her strong faith in God (if not so much in organized religion) that she becomes. One critic said all the good guys were atheists and all the bad guys were "Evial Christians" [whatever that means]. And that the Pope was all wrong. (Innocent XII was actually pretty good as 17th century popes went, and I tried to make that clear; I did my best to maintain his personality and his strengths. He and Lucien get off on the wrong foot; he behaves badly in trying to protect the church when it turns out it's perpetrated evil and error. This is not exactly unique in history. But as far as that critic was concerned, apparently, the church and popes have to be presented as perfect.) I guess I should have placed the blame for the Inquisition where it belonged, on pagan Apollo-worshipers; and blamed the unbelievably horrible harassments of French heretics on... who? Zeus? >2. The hero (Marie-Josephe) gets her period, and it even helps move the >story along. > Thanks for saying this. I've also had some criticism for mentioning that women have periods. Since I couldn't do my usual biocontrol routine in 17th century France, I thought it would be pretty dishonest not to mention it. >3. Marie-Josephe notices that the statue of Apollo bringing the dawn is >going the wrong way, and it bothers her. A lot. > The original sketch (by a different artist, not the incredibly wonderful Gary Halsey painting that they eventually used) had the Fountain of Apollo TURNED AROUND so the chateau could be seen _behind_ it. You can imagine my reaction to this. "Yeah, I'm sure Louis would put up with having to look at Apollo's butt when he came walking down the Green Carpet. Do you realize you're messing with the French equivalent of a national monument? YES people will notice. Besides, now it's facing the _right_ way in terms of the motion of the sun, which makes the whole section in which its direction bothers MJ into hash. Could you please not do this?" To give them their considerable due, they listened to me. >4. Most of the men are lame, old, dwarf, gay, or otherwise not your >typical Hollywood movie types, but they're all real characters and some of >them are even loveable. > Peter O'Toole as the chevalier de Lorraine... >5. Even though I guessed who the love interest would be, I really couldn't >figure out how the story would end. There were enough plot twists and >false endings that I wasn't sure until it happened. > One producer couldn't figure out the love interest even after she read the screenplay. (Or anyway she said she read it. Probably somebody just told it to her.) She wanted me to make Sherzad a guy, "So Marie-Josephe would have a romantic interest." My favorite hollywood story is the SFX guy (who wants to turn his SFX house into a real studio, and was looking for projects that would _show_ _off_ their considerable abilities with special effects), who -- on being told the story by his people -- said, "-I don't understand why we'd have to set the story in 17th century France. Couldn't we do it as a contemporary?-" and "-Why does it have to be a mermaid? Couldn't we tell the same story about a dolphin?-" He didn't want a spectacular... he wanted FREE WILLY IV. >6. The Queen of Nubia. Wow. > Thanks! She's the only ruler I made up out of whole cloth. The rest of them are as historically accurate as I could manage. (James was a real piece of work.) >7. The beauty of the final scene. What a wonderful image to leave with. > Thank you. I must have rewritten this scene about ninety-eleven times to get it exactly right, and to mirror the first line of the book with the last. >Question: When Mlle d'Armagnac and Mme Lucifer are smoking, teasing >Marie-Josephe, and speculating about the illicit talents of Yves, Mme >Lucifer claims she could commit one more sin with him than Mlle d'Armagnac, >who responds "Why, two more, I believe -- as you are married." Why two more? > They can both fornicate with him. Mme Lucifer can commit adultery with him. Mme Lucifer can commit incest with him: she's his half-sister, and everybody knows it (though they seldom admit it), except Yves and MJ. So actually the "one more sin" that Lucifer refers to is incest, since she doesn't really make any bones about committing adultery. The uncoded exchange goes: "We could both commit the sin of adultery [with a priest no less] with him." "Yeah, but I can sin more with him because I'm his sister." "You're right -- in fact you can sin three times as much as I can because you're also married." But that doesn't sound very 17th century French. >Also, it's not true that this book doesn't qualify for "alternative >history" because there aren't any wars. The sea people declare war on the >men of the land, and the Church declared war on the sea people, and of >course the Church wages war throughout with women and other lesser beings, >and Protestants. > For whatever reason, it apparently wasn't seriously considered for the Sidewise award. Possibly the judges simply thought it sucked. >Thank you, Vonda! > > My pleasure. Thanks for the kind words. Vonda ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:06:52 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit It only takes a few seconds to take the poll. But you may get high blood pressure from the articles! Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:52:25 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: E Subject: Re: Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These articles from Time have been translated into Portuguese and published by a major national newspaper in Brazil. I've sent many emails to feminist organizations here and asked everybody feminist to answer the pool. E ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:54:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit poll, I mean ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:00:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: E Subject: corporations, women's and human rights and ethics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a bit off-topic, but let me try to justify it. This is somewhat related to Sci-Fi since in many novels we see a gloomy portrait of a society or the entire world being dominated by corporations. Then, it is a feminist issue because it is a case of a corporation neglecting the basic rights of women. Then, the news: --------------------------------------------------------------------- [this is the summary. I'm sure you will be able to find better articles written in better English, but I'm sending this anyway]. *** Schering sells fake contraceptives in Brazil *** Schering produced 2 tons of fake pills supposedly to test a new packaging. These fake pills should have been destroyed, but they were sold. Some women who did not want to get pregnant took these pills and now they are expecting babies. In May 20, Schering - the same Industry that has solid reputation in Germany and the United States - received an anonymous letter denouncing the fact. Scheling investigated, and realized the accusation was true. Scheling should then notify the Health Authorities, but they didn't. Instead, they silenced. In June 1, the first woman contacted Scheling to complain that the pills were ineffective and she was pregnant. Many other complaints followed. Scheling remained silent. In June 19, the fact was made nationally known when it was broadcasted by Jornal Nacional, the nationwide TV News program. Only then Scheling decided to contact the police and complain that the pills had been stolen from the Scheling facilities. Scheling should have notified the police and the authorities since May 20. Had it happened in Germany or in the United States, many people in Schering would have lost their jobs. And Schering would have to indemnify the women who got pregnant when they were using Schering pills. Schering has offered no assistance whatsoever to these women who got pregnant when they were taking Schering fake pills. The pills did not contain hormones, only flour. Schering published an obscure communication in the newspapers, in which it mentions "occurrences" without specifying and without alerting other women who possibly might be taking fake Schering pills. Source: "A Schering pode virar farinha", by Elio Gaspari Folha de Sao Paulo, 28/june/98, p. 1-14 http://www.uol.com.br/fsp/ other Brazilian newspapers: http://www.estado.com.br/ http://www.oglobo.com.br/ 1. O Globo On Resumo: ibm11r.htm]. Serra pode testemunhar contra Schering. BRASÍLIA e SÃO PAULO. O ministro da Saúde, José Serra, anunciou ontem que colocará a equipe jurídica do ministério à disposição das quatro mulheres que engravidaram tomando anticoncepcionais falsos. Serra está disposto até mesmo a testemunhar contra http://www.oglobo.com.br/arquivo/rio/19980626/rio70.htm - tamanho: 4.291 bytes - data:27/06/98 00:02:02 GMT 2. O Globo On Resumo: Saúde interdita laboratório por vender pílula falsa. Isabel de Paula BRASÍLIA. O Ministério da Saúde interditou ontem, por cinco dias úteis, o laboratório Schering do Brasil Química Farmacêutica, por ter comercializado anticoncepcionais inócuos, à base de farinha, provocando gravidez indesejada em pelo http://www.oglobo.com.br/arquivo/rio/19980625/rio90.htm - tamanho: 4.736 bytes - data:26/06/98 00:25:14 GMT 3. O Globo On Resumo: Empresa já foi alvo de outra acusação de falsificação. BRASÍLIA. A Schering, que está entre os 10 maiores laboratórios do país, é reincidente na venda de produtos falsos. Há dois meses, dois homens com doenças na próstata morreram após o uso do remédio Androcur, que era na verdade um placebo (produto ine http://www.oglobo.com.br/rio/rio901.htm - tamanho: 3.872 bytes - data:25/06/98 03:06:43 GMT 4. O Globo On Resumo: Promotorias vão denunciar os crimes na área de saúde. Sandra Boccia SÃO PAULO. Depois de visitar ontem em São Paulo uma das quatro mulheres que engravidaram depois de tomar o anticoncepcional Microvlar falso, o ministro da Saúde, José Serra, anunciou a criação de promotorias estaduais de saúde, a partir http://www.oglobo.com.br/rio/rio20.htm - tamanho: 6.077 bytes - data:27/06/98 03:08:56 GMT 5. O Globo On Resumo: Empresa já foi alvo de outra acusação de falsificação. BRASÍLIA. A Schering, que está entre os 10 maiores laboratórios do país, é reincidente na venda de produtos falsos. Há dois meses, dois homens com doenças na próstata morreram após o uso do remédio Androcur, que era na verdade um placebo (produto ine http://www.oglobo.com.br/arquivo/rio/19980625/rio901.htm - tamanho: 3.961 bytes - data:26/06/98 00:25:15 GMT 6. O Globo On Resumo: Promotorias vão denunciar os crimes na área de saúde. Sandra Boccia SÃO PAULO. Depois de visitar ontem em São Paulo uma das quatro mulheres que engravidaram depois de tomar o anticoncepcional Microvlar falso, o ministro da Saúde, José Serra, anunciou a criação de promotorias estaduais de saúde, a partir http://www.oglobo.com.br/arquivo/rio/19980627/rio20.htm - tamanho: 6.164 bytes - data:27/06/98 20:02:38 GMT 7. O Globo On - Plantão Resumo: Serra anuncia devassa em laboratório que fabricou pilula com farinha Sandra Boccia SÃO PAULO, 26 - O ministro da Saúde, José Serra, acaba de deixar a residência de Valquiria de Souza Carvalho, de Ribeirão Pires, na Grande São Paulo, mulher que engravidou depois de ter tomado pilula Microvlar, do Lab http://www.oglobo.com.br/arquivo/plantao/19980626/26serra.htm - tamanho: 4.905 bytes - data:27/06/98 00:01:59 GMT