Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9807B" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:32:41 +0930 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karyn Black Subject: MOA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having read MOA at 17 and 3/4 thru at 25 I can perceive differences in how I have assimilated the characters actions. As a brash" nothing can harm me," "that will never happen to me" 17 year old, I skimmed through the anguish and torment of Morgaine's lower moments and absorbed and imprinted her fleeting moments of empowerement. I read it cover to cover in 2 days not stopping to eat or communicate with any others (difficult in a busy sharehouse). I read the last 100 or so pages in a daze, disbelieving it could end so tragically. It was the first book that addressed my as yet unformed ideals about the unfairness of a patriachal all-consuming religion. It spurned an interest in the deeper mysteries of life and added air to a young flicker of feminism flame. At the time I was aware of a womens alure to men and had already participated in acts of sexual curiosity that had left me feeling bare and less in control. It gave me comfort. Now as an old hag of 25 (tee hee) I re-read it with a different verve. I have found a mate (and a step-daughter), done countless stupid things along the way and learnt a little patience. (a little!) My opinion of Gwen has not changed. At 17 I already had no time for "girly girls" who remained as a children lifelong. Morguase I thought a baddie when younger, yet now she seems more in control of her lifes path than Morgaine who was my initial heroine! Bear in mind I have not yet finished. Morgaine even considers that perhaps she should do the same as Morguase (be the mistress of her own castle) but can never come to terms with her own sexual desires. All through reading, I kept screaming at Morgaine "Go back to Avalon" where I felt she would at least find some resolution. Vivianne remains true to herself up till her demise and seems at times the ony one (save Merlin) willing to fight for the old religion. I am no longer an overzealous advocate of MOA. One small gripe of mine is the constant overuse of "mankind" even by those of Avalon! I realise it is only in recent years that gender specific language is not on, yet I would have surely thought a priestess would not perceive the world as purely a mans domain. Indeed I can pull the book apart and find small criticisms here and there. I keep going back to the first time I read it and remember the flush of empowerement I felt as a burgeoning woman. I can admit freely in ways it was life-changing and developed personal manifesto's about feminism and religion. For that I am unsure my criticisms will be objective as it is like defending an old friend. Perhaps after I complete it my opionion will change. Hello all Karyn Black ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:19:23 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This was one of my favorite comments: I had one major problem with Morgaine. She alternated between blind obed^? ience and blind rebellion, and in consequence, when careful thought and planning would have served her well, she went off like a bad^? ly made firecracker. Patricia (Pat) Mathews (By the way if this reads funny, my mailserver is having a "few" difficul^? ties. Hope this is somewhat legible) If an author is talented and works hard she can make consistent, reasonab^? le characters. I like those. I like consistent, reasonable people too. ^? Unfortunately, most people aren't consistent and are frequently unresona^? ble. Once I took a course on the Bible from a really neat, liberal intel^? ligent priest who actually made me like the book. One of the things I li^? ke best was those foolish hebrews following Moses around in the desert an^? d screwing up every chance they got. He'd tell them god wanted them to d^? o something, they'd agree and they'd do it for a while then do just the o^? pposite when they felt like it, not just once but over and over again. N^? ow that's a human portrayal. Theoretically we learn from our mistakes, b^? ut in my experience, it takes a lot more than one to get the message. ^? So Morgaine, Gwenhwyfar, the Merlin, Kevin, Arthur and Lancelet (who did ^? come off as a first class wimp) could have been following Viviane around ^? in the wilderness, making the same mistakes over and over and always thin^? king they had it right, but never quite getting it. So none of them got ^? to the promised land, but they made some of us want to try to find it our^? selves. Joyce Jones ^? ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N^? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:24:52 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: [BDG] Mists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4A3739EFBDBF9742CF37A683" --------------4A3739EFBDBF9742CF37A683 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessie wrote: > Is it feminist? Several people have said no, but I think maybe the definition > of "feminist", as used here, is a moving target. It's been said that it's not > feminist "enough" because it doesn't push against sexist stereotypes and > because all power in the story is gotten through men; but thirty years ago, if > someone had taken a classically male myth about men and rewritten it so that > the important people were women, I bet we would all have called it feminist. I > can't read T.H. White's series now -- I'm still fond of The Sword In The > Stone, but in the later ones Morgan le Fay appears as a really hideous > creature and I can't stand it. So my perception of a cultural icon has been > wholly changed, and it's changed what I do and what I think. Isn't that what > feminism is all about? > I see this aspect of feminist "definition" mostly from the POV of youth. As a thirteen-year-old I was 'mind-blown' by seeing Suzi Quatro in her leather gear, playing bass guitar, strutting like a man on the stage etc... LOL.. I can honestly say, Suzi Q *changed my life* by challenging the passive, bland stereotype I had internalised on women singers, and by giving a young girl a 'role model' very different to most other women in the pop-world at that point in time:) At that point in time, I would have said Suzi Q represented to me the most powerful "feminist" figure:)) Not long after, at 14-15 or so, I discovered Jo Clayton's Diadem series of novels, - with the introduction of Aleytys who walks and fights and struggles her way across half a planet, aged 15 and pregnant. With her maturation into an adult, and becoming a powerful immortal with very human emotions and concerns, completely 'blowing my mind away':)). It amuses me now, as it wasn't until many years later when I had read books pertaining to Goddess religions, fact and fiction, that I realised the Goddess symbolism of all four main characters - with Aleytys representing the "Mother" figure of the Goddess, and the young Shadith imprisoned in the Diadem as a young maiden, and sole survivor, of her dead, dancing, artistic culture as the "Virgin" figure, and the aged, wise and queenly Haskari as the "Crone" image. And, the mercenary male warrior figure imprisoned in the Diadem in his prime, Q, with his humour and true friendship of all the women, as an independent equal, as the 'Consort' figure to the 3-faces of the Goddess:)). All the women retained power completely independent of him, and other men, even indeed of each other - yet their bonds of friendship, and alliance of their individual strengths compensating for each other's weaknesses, during times of necessity remained strong throughout. Nonetheless, the Diadem novels, are considered not much more than well-written galactic space-opera. However, these were the FIRST powerful, strong women characters I had ever "met" in my reading, and they stay with me still. Mists of Avalon, I suspect was/is most popular with younger or less-experienced readers, the first time they had been exposed to well-drawn images of strong, powerful women of any kind, and being a departure from the general reading material available, could very well be seen as a book 'that changes lives'. Morgaine and the other women characters would stick in their minds. For older readers of Mists however, many of whom could say, "been there, done that, bought that T-shirt", the book could be perceived differently, as just a soap-opera, a best-seller pulp fiction block-buster novel, more entertaining and better-written than most perhaps, but still not great literature, feminist or otherwise. This may also account, for several readers commenting how powerfully the book affected them when first they read it, but on second reading their perception changed. As for feminist definition, perhaps its more to do with "political " feminism. For example, Margaret Thatcher ( maybe, not the best example) could very well be seen as an icon of a strong, "powerful" woman, and may very well be a 'role model' and admired by many women. Yet, because of her right-wing politics, many feminists would deny her. I saw the women characters in Mists as right-wing, and because my "political feminism" leans toward the left-wing, I found it difficult to see most of the Mists women characters as anything other than right-wing men, who happened to have a different set of genitals. As for the Arthurian legends, and the history of that period, I would recommend readers take a look at Robert Graves scholarly book - "The White Goddess". A daunting book of life-long and painstaking research on Celtic, Welsh, Greek and Hebrew traditions of myth and legend, and is heavy going for any reader. Nonetheless, it is well worth the effort:)) One interesting quote: " The Norman-French troveres and Malory in his Morte d'Arthur who collected and collated their Arthurian romances had no knowledge of, or even interest in, the historical or religious meaning of the myths they handled - myths obtained from what was after all, a conquered nation, and history is written by the winners. They felt themselves entirely free to improve the narrative in accordance with their new gospel of chivalry inherited from the literary tradition of early medieval Provence - hence they broke up the old mythic patterns of Celtish lore, and taking liberties of every sort, that the Welsh minstrels in their strict oral tradition would never have dared to take." Julieanne --------------4A3739EFBDBF9742CF37A683 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessie wrote: 
Is it feminist? Several people have said no, but I think maybe the definition
of "feminist", as used here, is a moving target. It's been said that it's not
feminist "enough" because it doesn't push against sexist stereotypes and
because all power in the story is gotten through men; but thirty years ago, if
someone had taken a classically male myth about men and rewritten it so that
the important people were women, I bet we would all have called it feminist. I
can't read T.H. White's series now -- I'm still fond of The Sword In The
Stone, but in the later ones Morgan le Fay appears as a really hideous
creature and I can't stand it. So my perception of a cultural icon has been
wholly changed, and it's changed what I do and what I think. Isn't that what
feminism is all about?
I see this aspect of feminist "definition" mostly from the POV of youth. As a thirteen-year-old I was 'mind-blown' by seeing Suzi Quatro in her leather gear, playing bass guitar, strutting like a man on the stage etc... LOL..
I can honestly say, Suzi Q *changed my life* by challenging the passive, bland stereotype I had internalised on women singers, and by giving a young girl a 'role model' very different to most other women in the pop-world at that point in time:)  At that point in time, I would have said Suzi Q represented to me the most powerful "feminist" figure:))

Not long after, at 14-15 or so, I discovered Jo Clayton's Diadem series of novels,  - with the introduction of Aleytys who walks and fights and struggles her way across half a planet, aged 15 and pregnant. With her maturation into an adult, and becoming a powerful immortal with very human emotions and concerns, completely 'blowing my mind away':)).  It amuses me now, as it wasn't until many years later when I had read books pertaining to Goddess religions, fact and fiction, that I realised the Goddess symbolism of all four main characters - with Aleytys representing the "Mother" figure of the Goddess, and the young Shadith imprisoned in the Diadem as a young maiden, and sole survivor, of her dead, dancing, artistic culture as the "Virgin" figure, and the aged, wise and queenly Haskari as the "Crone" image.  And, the mercenary male warrior figure imprisoned in the Diadem in his prime, Q, with his humour and true friendship of all the women, as an independent equal,  as the 'Consort' figure to the 3-faces of the Goddess:)).  All the women retained power completely independent of him, and other men, even indeed of each other - yet their bonds of friendship, and alliance of their individual strengths compensating for each other's weaknesses, during times of necessity remained strong throughout. Nonetheless, the Diadem novels, are considered not much more than well-written galactic space-opera.  However, these were the FIRST powerful, strong women characters I had ever "met" in my reading, and they stay with me still.

Mists of Avalon, I suspect was/is most popular with younger or less-experienced readers, the first time they had been exposed to well-drawn images of strong, powerful women of any kind, and being a departure from the general reading material available, could very well be seen as a book 'that changes lives'. Morgaine and the other women characters would stick in their minds. For older readers of Mists however, many of whom could say,  "been there, done that, bought that T-shirt",  the book could be perceived differently, as just a soap-opera, a best-seller pulp fiction block-buster novel, more entertaining and better-written than most perhaps, but still not great literature, feminist or otherwise. This may also account, for several readers commenting  how powerfully the book affected them when first they read it, but on second reading their perception changed.

As for feminist definition, perhaps its more to do with "political " feminism. For example, Margaret Thatcher ( maybe, not the best example) could very well be seen as an icon of a strong, "powerful" woman, and may very well be a 'role model'  and admired by many women. Yet,  because of her right-wing politics, many feminists would deny her. I saw the women characters in Mists as right-wing, and because my "political feminism" leans toward the left-wing, I found it difficult to see most of the Mists women characters as anything other than right-wing men, who happened to have a different set of genitals.

As for the Arthurian legends, and the history of that period, I would recommend readers take a look at Robert Graves scholarly book - "The White Goddess". A daunting book of life-long and painstaking research on Celtic, Welsh, Greek and Hebrew traditions of myth and legend, and is heavy going for any reader. Nonetheless, it is well worth the effort:))

One interesting quote:

" The Norman-French troveres and Malory in his Morte d'Arthur who collected and collated their Arthurian romances had no knowledge of, or even interest in, the historical or religious meaning of the myths they handled - myths obtained from what was after all, a conquered nation, and history is written by the winners. They felt themselves entirely free to improve the narrative in accordance with their new gospel of chivalry inherited from the literary tradition of early medieval Provence - hence they broke up the old mythic patterns of Celtish lore, and taking liberties of every sort,  that the Welsh minstrels in their strict oral tradition would never have dared to take."
 

Julieanne
 
  --------------4A3739EFBDBF9742CF37A683-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:54:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Women innn Avalon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The one book I read which treated Guinevere, Morgaine, and Morgause with respect, each for being what she is, is an obscure murder mystery by Phyllis Ann Karr called IDylls of the Queen. It's based on an incident in Mallory in which Guinevere is, on very flimsy evidence, accused of murder by an irate knight (literally irate: guess his nationality!). Sir Kay is the detective; Mordred is his Watson; and the mystery of who killed Sir Lamorak is cleared up, though it had to be hushed up. Mass market paperback; I've read it to shreds. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:57:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG: [*FSFFU*] Mists of Avalon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Mary-Ellen Maynard wrote: > In a message dated 7/7/98 8:52:06 PM, you wrote: > > << And as I wrote to her, whenever the young people ask "Where are > all the....?", the answer is usually: > In places with names like Sunset Acres > and) It will be thejob of YOUR generation to rekindle the torch. > > This did not please her at all.>> > > The answer I always thought of in this case was; "In the same boat you were, > or not born yet." Don't think that would please her either. > Same difference. I have a friend who calls her the Wicked Witch of the West. (The Wicked Witch of the Southwest "All right, my pretty, just for that there'll be no green chili on your enchiladas!")> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:51:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 5 Jul 1998 to 6 Jul 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I sent the following response to asario.sff.com (minus some comments on my affection for the court of Versailles & Dumas's Vicomte de Bragellone): There were also many things about the book I liked; but what I have written about on the list did not refer to the book. And again, what I have written about on the list did not refer to the book. I did not object to McIntyre's use of the convent in the book; I have to say, it didn't even stick in my mind. What I did deeply object to, as I have said, was a reader's simplistic deduction about the convent in reality, based on a work of fiction (with its own axe to grind). This did not strike me as a carefully thought-out analysis, but just a personal, half-baked prejudice bolstered by a minor plot element in one book she read. My comment that this was a Romantic literary convention was not meant to denigrate the book in which this convention was employed, as I have also said. I also deeply regret saying that the reader's deduction was "crap" ..., particularly when I saw it repeated over and over, excerpted in replies; I have also apologized for this. But enough! The stereotypes you were reinforcing (even if highly specific to Lucien, and within an argument for luring males to the trough) are still offensive. Were still flabbergasting to me. Men constantly, over and over again, in every outlet of mass media, have their poor fragile egos reinforced by seeing the average, the homely, the less-than-perfect, the grotesque, the aged, the offensive man Get the Girl. The beautiful, intelligent Girl. This is what the post I excerpted was referring to. Marina's post had nothing to do with Lucien but with that exact cliche. I clearly said, again, that the response had nothing to do with Lucien's character, just with the promulgation of an invidious cliche, whatever the motivation. The lack of "tact" was rooted in utter exasperation. As to my lack of tact: a little jab can on occasion elicit an interesting response. And I am not alone in expressing outrage at certain ideas. You have eloquently expressed the tactics and desirability of seducing men to feminist writing. I sincerely don't give a damn whether they read it or not. Good cop, bad cop? Two points of view, anyway. I received the response: >>I'm afraid I just don't find your arguments well thought out. Sorry. -- Catherine You can judge for yourself. I apologize again if anyone is sincerely offended, but I can't do anything about misinterpretations of what I've said or arguments I haven't made. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: N Clowder Subject: BDG: Mists of Avalon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am about a third of the way through MOA. I read it many years ago and loved it. Thanks to those of you who have reminded me what it was like to read this book for the first time. I remember being caught up by the characters, the romance, but most of all by the depiction of a goddess-centered, woman-centered religion. I agree that it was quite a valuable achievement for MZB to bring this subject area into the mainstream. I also remember attempting to re-read the book and being unable to get through it. I feel it is too long. If MZB weren't such a good writer, it would be a disaster. It's a tribute to her that she keeps me reading when, plot-wise, there really isn't a thing going on for paragraphs on end. If you are reading for escape, if the world of this book is a place you want to stay as long as possible, then it's not too long at all. But at this stage in my life, I have a better vision of a world inhabited by strong women who worship a goddess, and MOA no longer serves me as a haven from the contemporary world. The other thing that stopped me dead in my tracks on the last attempted re-read was Gwenhwyfar. I couldn't STAND her - so much so that I put the book down. I haven't encountered her yet on this re-read, but my teeth are clenched already in anticipation. Pertaining to recent discussions on the list concerning liaisons between older men/younger women, ugly men/desirable women, I thought MZB gave a very sensitive portrayal of Igraine's relationship with Gorlois. Igraine's vacillation between loathing and gratitude seemed very realistic to me. She was trying so hard to convince herself that her lot in life was bearable, to have the "proper" feelings. Then Gorlois would do something that she couldn't overlook and her feelings of frustration and loathing would overwhelm her. I've been there. In fact, I'm often still there - except that my idea of what constitutes "proper" feeling has changed! I also thought MZB did a good job of depicting Igraine's maturity/immaturity - the responsibilities thrust upon her at an early age (she married Gorlois at 15, and is only 19 when the book opens, if I remember correctly) - contrasted with her girlish whims, desires, and, not least of all, the discovery of her sexuality as desire rather than duty. Is it a feminist book? I was toying with the definition of feminism as anything written with an awareness of the sexual politics involved. In this sense, yes. This definition sidesteps the issue of whether a book presents a desirable feminist outcome, and allows us to speak of feminists writing works that do nothing beyond depicting, accurately, situations which are expressive of the patriarchal mentality. On the other hand, recently I heard someone use the term "masculinist" with reference to literature, and I knew immediately what this meant (for me) and felt like a big hole in my vocabulary and suddenly been filled, a hole I hadn't realized was there. In this sense, feminist and masculinist would refer to literature which advances a particular agenda. It's much harder to argue for MOA as advancing a feminist agenda, though I think some of the posts on the lists have made good points in this regard. One more thing - I was astonished on this re-read that a book that is so hostile towards Christianity could have been on a best-seller list in this country. Particularly in the opening, there was some really harsh stuff. It makes me think that many of those readers who contributed to making MOA a best-seller were reading it truly as fantasy, as not-real and hence of no "real" import, and that those readers perceived the goddess-worshippers in the book (all of 'em) as the bad guys who got their due in the end. What do you think folks - is it possible to read MOA this way? It may or may not be a feminist book to those of us subscribing to a feminist list, but is it possible to read MOA and remain indifferent/unaware of the feminist issues raised? How does tying the issue of feminism to the worship of a goddess affect the message of the book, the viability of the book...dang, if I had more time, I'd figure out how to ask that question better. Enough! Thanks everyone for your posts. I'm new, and enjoying the discussion very much. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:32:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Re: BDG: Mists of Avalon In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980708145717.00918040@mail.utexas.edu> (message from N Clowder on Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:57:17 -0500) Nell wrote: >The other thing that stopped me dead in my tracks on the last attempted >re-read was Gwenhwyfar. I couldn't STAND her - so much so that I put the >book down. I haven't encountered her yet on this re-read, but my teeth are >clenched already in anticipation. Amen! I have *never* found a portrayal of the Guinevere character that I liked. This once made her more human, provided some motivations for her behavior, at least, but she remains completely unlikeable to me. There were so many easy solutions, if only she hadn't been so busy finding excuses and wallowing in misery and self-pity. Ugh. I've always seen her as the "bad guy" in the Arthurian legends. I really love MOA. Sure it has flaws, but I love the rich detail and somehow even the lovelorn moaning has a weight and poetry it generally lacks in the soap operas people have compared it to. The one "problem" I really have with the book is that having read it, I find it impossible to get through other versions of the Arthurian legends (do NOT get me started on Lawhead!) because they so lack the character development of MOA that I find myself thinking "but that's not how it happened!" (I'm fully aware MOA is not "how it happened" either, but it just seems so plausible to me in many ways that other versions never achieve.) Have other people read the companion volumes _The Forest House_ and _Lady of the Lake_? I was really disappointed in them and found them dreadfully simplistic in comparison. E. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:07:09 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: Mists of Avalon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/98 6:20:13 PM, E wrote: <> Only one I've ever liked was Vanessa Redgrave's performance in Camelot... phoebe Phoebe Wray ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Fed up (was Moon and Sun) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thrice I have had to endure a public post in which someone excuses away blatant rudeness by blaming my ignorant thinking. Ignorant I am, but I know that brilliance proclaimed from the elevated position of my back is tarnished indeed. Continued and repeated ridicule and condescension woven amidst proffered apology and self-effacement does not fool this old crone. "The masters tools will never dismantle the masters house" A. Lorde ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:27:48 -0400 Reply-To: anneh@eecs.mit.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Hunter Subject: Delurking to talk about Gwynhwyfar and Morgaine I've been lurking for several months since my youngest sister recommended I join this list. She's been on it for some time, I believe. First, my comments: Does it seem to others that MZB intended to portray Gwynhwyfar as suffering from a panic disorder including agoraphobia? I have friends who've suffered from anxiety attacks, and it sounds like that's what Gwyn has. She recalls at one point that as a child she enjoyed playing outside, when she was taken to visit the ruins at Camelot, but knows that now she would just panic. It seems as if the problem may have started from her time at the convent, and perhaps even from the incident when she met Lancelot and Morgaine, or else from the sense of guilt that the priests instilled. So she's not just a pale "girly girl", all prim and pious -- she's a deeply troubled person. I'm not sure why MZB chose to show her this way. I haven't quite finished rereading the book, so perhaps this is made more of later. But it seemed odd that we were mentioning her personality without acknowledging what seems to me to be her most notable characteristic. On Igraine, whose characterization I otherwise enjoyed, I couldn't understand her reported conversion to Christianity when she married Uther, whom we were told was not strongly on the Christian side. It seemed that the Goddess religion had brought her happiness, but then she turned away from it. In her deathscene she recanted a bit, I think. Second, about me: I've been reading science fiction since I was a child, and I've been a feminist since my teens, when the second wave started. I read all kinds of science fiction, and most of my favorite writers are women. I'm not generally wild about fantasy, as there seems to be an amazing amount of derivative, imitative stuff out there. It's not at all unrelated to my love of SF that I majored in philosophy and history in college. I don't know if I would have majored in Women's Studies if it had existed, but I'm sure I would have taken classes. I'm a p.k. (preacher's kid) of the rebellious, atheistic type, nevertheless obsessed with religions. I'm a zenophiliac; attracted to, not afraid of, the exotic and different. The only spark of spirituality I retain is a deep appreciation for nature. In a lot of parallel universes I'm a writer, but in this one I work at MIT, where I run our largest academic programs, the undergrad and combined bachelors/masters programs in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. This involves too much paper and database work, but is mostly email, and counseling students, of whom I have roughly 1,375, and almost 100 faculty advisors. Although I'm happy to have a job that uses my heart as much as my head, I do get 'way peopled out, and find email a relatively tranquil alternative. Apart from being a workaholic, I swim every day, love to travel, enjoy renting foreign and indie movies, and love food far too much. For over 20 years I've been happily in a relationship with a wonderful gentle man, with whom I live in our luxury condo on the Charles. If I believed in previous lives I'd think I'd done something pretty wonderful in my last one. I try not to be smug or scared that I'll have to pay for it all later. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:22:21 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's strange how the same scene can effect people so differently. The se^? duction and capture of Kevin by Nimue is one of my favorite stories in th^? e book. Any author could have written of the ease with which a beautiful^? woman could seduce an ugly man and then betray him. But Bradley showed ^? the power of sex by having the seduction work as well on Nimue as on Kevi^? n. Sex as a fundamental expression of nature is shown to be very strong,^? even holy in this book producing a great tie between the partners. This^? is why a positive view of sexuality is a part of goddess honoring spiri^? tuality. Contrast that idea with the expression of sex in the movie Kids^? in which intercourse involves as much emotion as washing your face. The^? spirituality of sex is one of the major factors making it a strong human^? drive. ^? Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N^? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:57:33 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 6 Jul 1998 to 7 Jul 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathleen, are you sure it is the people on this digest that you are really angry at? We aren't your enemies. In fact, many of us share your views on stereotypes and imbalanced representations of women in our culture. My first impulse, when several friends sent me a copy of your last post, was to put up the lengthy portions of your letter to me that you deleted when you posted it to the listserve. After I stopped feeling hurt, I realized I wouldn't do it, in part because of the copyright questions I mention below. But even without that, I still would have decided against it, one reason being because I think you were wise not to post some of your comments in public, but also because my impression is that your anger isn't really directed at me. I get the sense that someone or something hurt you, and for some reason you've focused your anger about it on me and some of the other posters. I'm not sure why you are angry, particularly in a case like this, when we are exactly the people you could be getting support from. In the past decades, many of us went through a lot to open new doors for women. I won't deny that it hurts to have someone who knows nothing about me or the battles I've fought claim that I am supporting the very injustices I have worked for most of my life to set right. However, I also realize that those same injustices can create anger, and part of the women's movement is about women supporting each other in times of need. And yes, it is true that I do speak of moderation, and women and men working together to make a better world for all of us. Idealistic? Well, perhaps. But still my ideals. Perhaps there has been more discussion on this; since I get the digest, which hasn't come out yet, I only know of the one post, so I can't comment on anything else. One note, however; although the legal situation with copyrights and the web is still in the process of being hammered out by the legal community, the present consensus in regards to private email is that it is copyrighted in the name of the person who sent it. Posting to a listserve, particularly one that is archived, is generally considered publication. So the publication of private email in a public forum without the consent of the writer may be illegal. Best regards Catherine Asaro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA -- Kevin and Nimue In-Reply-To: <19980708212222.29238.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You might be right, Joyce, but I still think the idea of sacrificing a 14-year-old girl's sexuality -- and in fact her life -- for the sake of some political revenge (and after all that talk how more humane and non-violent was Avalon comparing to Christianity) was extremely disgusting. I just imagined myself in Nimue's place, and I can say that I'd have a few choice words for Morgaine or anyone else who'd order me to do this for the sake of some "higher goal". This was what I did not like about the Avalon the way it's portrayed in this book the most. It bothered me that its priestesses -- both Vivian and Morgaine -- seemed to care very little about anyone's lives or feelings. Power is a very nice thing, but the price one os willing to pay for it should have some limits. And the more I think about it, the more I feel that the rulers of Avalon brought their fall on themselves. Which was probably better for everyone, anyway. I would hate to see that people who treat others like worthless pawns would prevail. Maybe the main thing that grosses me out about Nimue-Kevin affair is that once again, there is a beautiful young girl throwing her life away for some ugly old traitor, and moreover, she does it by the order of _other women_. And that it's presented as something heroic. This might be a stretch, but I also felt that the main reason Morgaine send Nimue to do this was to get rid of her only possible rival for the throne of High Priestess. The same as Vivian much earlier in the book was wondering whether she had thrown Igraine into the marriage to Gorlois siply to send away her little sister who was a lot prettier that she was (I'm not making this up -- it's in the book). Margause was prettier too, besides Vivian could not control her, so out she went as well. The same as Vivian later put Morgaine to bed with her brother, without telling either of them and knowing perfectly well that something like that can make anyone's head cave in, Christian or not. The later "explanation" that Morgaine was intended to be the "behind-the-throne-counsel" to Arthur because they had sex seems kind of cheesy to me. Because back when it happened, Vivian did not even want either of them to know who they slept with, they only discovered it by accident. So how their affair would make some kind of a "sacred tie" between them if they would not even know who they slept with? I think, Vivian simply wanted to destroy Morgaine and royally mess up Arthur's head in the prosess, so she could totally control them. The first part of the plan worked pretty well, but it hardly did any good to anyone. Sometimes, it seemed that women in this book were just as hateful to each other as they are in the most traditional novels. And just like in those stories about "hateful old women", they seem to have a particular knack on destroying the ones who depends on them... I think it's sad that the strong female characters in the book were expressing their strength like this. No matter what anyone says, I don't think that sacrificing the ones who love you makes one a strong woman. It just makes one an asshole, regardless of gender, IMHO. In regards to the Goddess honoring spirituality through sex, it seems to me that Avalon traditions did not go that far from the patriarchial point of view. There are many places in the novel when Vivian condemns Margause's "promiscuity" by pointing out, that she, Vivane, only had sex when she had to -- for a "sacred marriage", or by a Beltane fire, or to secure a political alliance. She did not go around sleeping with people she liked, like Margause did, just for fun. So basically, it was the same old idea of "as long as you don't enjoy it, it's not a sin". How was it better than the Christian obsession with marriage? It simply means instead of sleeping with one person you do not choose, you have to do it with many that you may not even like. Just another variation of "sex as a social duty", IMHO. I think it's better when sex is like washing one's face than when it becomes some kind of currency for a higher cause, which ruins you life on the top of that. But that's just my opinion. Marina On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > It's strange how the same scene can effect people so differently. The > se^? > duction and capture of Kevin by Nimue is one of my favorite stories in > th^? > e book. Any author could have written of the ease with which a > beautiful^? > woman could seduce an ugly man and then betray him. But Bradley > showed ^? > the power of sex by having the seduction work as well on Nimue as on > Kevi^? > n. Sex as a fundamental expression of nature is shown to be very > strong,^? > even holy in this book producing a great tie between the partners. > This^? > is why a positive view of sexuality is a part of goddess honoring > spiri^? > tuality. Contrast that idea with the expression of sex in the movie > Kids^? > in which intercourse involves as much emotion as washing your face. > The^? > spirituality of sex is one of the major factors making it a strong > human^? > drive. ^? > > Joyce Jones > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N^? > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:13:23 -0700 Reply-To: Kieth Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: Female/male attractiveness (was Moon and Sun) In-Reply-To: <007401bdaaa7$7cb8fb40$20ae2499@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, all, I have to agree with Kathleen Friell's remarks about the quote from the Moon and the Sun. I don't know how many fairy tales I've read, movies I've seen, male friends who've complained about their datelessness, that assumed every man had a right to want a beautiful woman to love him for himself alone. The inequity behind this idea is never examined, much less questioned. I think it has a lot to do with who has the power to define whom. If you hog the microphone, you can define yourself as subject in the subject/object duality that can be part of any human relationship and make the other person always and only an object - a thing that isn't valued by its own internal standards, the way a subject is, but by the standards imposed on it according to the use a subject has for it. An object by definition cannot define a subject. Men define women's most important quality as desirability, and that desirability is defined by transitory, external characteristics that women have no control over. Men consider attractiveness to women to be irrelevant to a man's value as a human being, but still expect that attractiveness to be contigent on human qualities such as integrity, courage, creativity, etc - qualities humans aren't born with so much as achieve. Can you imagine waiting at a supermarket line, and seeing face after insipid interchangable young male face on the covers of magazines devoted to helping men achieve that interchangable youthfullness, while the only women shown were middle-aged and older, on the covers of news magazines, as policy makers? The above is, of course, not true of every man, but I think it is true of Western, and particularly U.S. culture as a whole. And I have to say that I really liked _The Moon and the Sun_. One novel can't interrogate every aspect of a culture, and this disparity is so imbedded in my own background that I found the ending comforting and romantic. Besides, Lucien was described as having a beautiful face and hands, and the heroine seemed to be loved as much for her honesty and courage as for her looks. But I do have to agree with Kathleen Friell's objection to the idea behind the quote about the novel. The Other Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: MML essay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After pondering for a while, I've decided to post an excerpt from an essay written by a member of the listserv that relates to a discusison we had a few months ago. Normally I wouldn't post something that refers to my own work, but I have been disconcerted by the idea expressed here that I am unaware, indeed even supporting, of some of the very stereotypes I've spoken about as needing to be changed. I've known myself to put my foot down my throat and tickle my tonsils with my toes, so I hesitated to speak up. Besides, I very much understand the anger expressed over the imbalance in much of our literature and media with regards to the portrayal of male and female love, sexuality, and relationships. But I have to confess, it does bother me to have my own views on the subject so mistaken, particularly in this of all areas. Well anyway, let me give this a try (if my cat would quit walking across the keyboard). One aspect of this subject I've spoken about at cons is the "male gaze" and the "female gaze." It is common to find the "male gaze" in literature extolling female beauty, sexuality, and so on in a way that appeals to men, but the "female gaze" extolling male desirability is looked on with distrust, to say the least, except in the romance genre, where it is celebrated. The excerpt below comes from an essay on my book THE LAST HAWK that appeared in THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION. The author makes some fascinating points about how a man feels when he encounters a woman's perspective on sex and love. I thought it took guts for him to analyze his own reaction the way that he did. I should note here that here since the essay has come out, a number of readers have contacted me to ask about it. Because the author noted that he had read this listserv and interviewed me, it gives an impression that I agree with certain points made in the essay that I don't actually agree on, and that the agreement took place on this listserv, which it didn't. So before I give the excerpt, I will remark on a few of those points. However, I do want to make it clear that I much appreciated the author (Mike Levy) interviewing me and that I thoroughly enjoyed talking to him about it. The characters in HAWK don't want their conquerors on their planet because they don't like being conquered, not because they wish to hide being a matriarchy. They are quite happy with their form of government, and in fact, many of them assume their conquerors also have that form (after all, from their point of view, how else would you do it?). Another point germane to the present discussion is the description of both the male lead and his first wife as drop-dead gorgeous. I specifically didn't make the woman gorgeous for exactly the reasons discussed here. She is described as attractive in a diginified way, a powerful ruler in her prime, approaching fifty. The man (Kelric) is much younger, and he =is= drop-dead gorgeous (a fact that has caused a bit of grumbling from some male reviewers ). One point of that story, in fact, was to reverse the "trophy-wife" stereotype discussed here, and in doing so provide commentary on it (oh heck, I admit it, reversing the roles was fun too ). Also, I didn't deliberately set out to use or violate romance conventions in any of my books. When I first started writing, I had never read a romance novel, so at first I didn't understand why the word "romance" kept cropping up in relation to my sf, which is hard-as-nails space adventure, particularly the first two books. When all the commotion started about how my books broke the rules by mixing "women's" and "men's" fiction, I started to read romance novels, to see what the to-do was about. I realized then that I was writing with a perspective that values a woman's take on life and love in a way that is rarely found in literature, except romance, precisely for the reasons discussed here in the past few days. Romance readers tell me they don't consider HAWK romance, but that it does, through the role reversal, make explicit the challenge in romance to the idea that the male perspective in literature is the one with value. Anyway, those are some of the points most germane to this listserv. In any case, Michael wrote an intriguing essay, which I excerpt here: ------- >From THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION, from the essay by Michael M. Levy on THE LAST HAWK, by Catherine Asaro. Copyright 1998 Michael M. Levy. ... In her discussion of romantic fiction on the feminist SF listserv mentioned above, Catherine Asaro wrote "By their very nature, romance novels question the cultural view and imperatives [of society] in a major way. Romance loves female sexuality. It challenges so many assumptions about women, sex, and men that it would take an entire essay to discuss them." By reversing the sexual roles on Coba, Asaro, I believe, is similarly challenging our preconceptions. ... As I read THE LAST HAWK, I found the novel making me uncomfortable, particularly its sex scenes. Asaro says that several other male readers of the book have had a similar reaction and she asked me why I felt this way. Her question, of course, forced me to analyze my gut-level reaction. In part, as Asaro herself suggests, I think it's a matter of passion. Her characters are intensely passionate, something science fiction characters are not notable for, and they thus violate SF genre expectations. After considering the matter further, however, I think that it has something to do with Kelric's (and one other male character's) enforced sexual passivity, their being the object of desire rather than the ones actively doing the desiring, and particularly their having little choice as to when they will participate in sexual encounters. In the real world, of course, I expect that most men enjoy being done to rather than doing on occasion, but it's still disconcerting to see such a situation portrayed so extensively. Men are so used to seeing themselves as in control, as the choosers, rather than the chosen, as the ones actively making love rather than passively having love made to them. A man can believe fully on an intellectual level in equality between the sexes, but still, I think, be disconcerted on a gut level when a woman takes the lead in a sexual encounter. I want to emphasize that this is not an adverse criticism of THE LAST HAWK--in fact, it's just the reverse. I know from long experience that when a book makes me uncomfortable, it's probably stepping on some deeply buried assumption, something that I need to take a look at. Although I've read other role-reversal SF novels in the past, this is the first one, I believe, that has ever worked so hard at getting to the center of things, to those deep-seated sexual matters that people (or straight men at least) rarely want to consider too closely. Perhaps this ties into a basic reason why so few men are interested in reading romance fiction and, in fact, often feel the need to ridicule it. Although such books seem to be, in Asaro's words "innocuously clothed in the garb of tradition," on a very basic level they imply an intense disagreement with the dominant male viewpoint of the world. And this may be doubly true of THE LAST HAWK, combining as it does not only the conventions of the romance novel, but also those of that most traditional of all science-fiction sub-genres, the space opera. My God! What have we got here? A cybernetically-enhanced, genius-level superhero who, although seemingly capable of giving Kimball Kinnison or Arnold Schwarzenegger a run for their money, ends up spending most of his time half-naked in a harem, playing dice. What a hoot! Speaking of male attitudes towards the romance, Asaro notes that "the establishment pooh-poohs `women's literature' as fluff, while the fluff goes on quietly breaking all the rules." I think that it's safe to say that Catherine Asaro is doing much the same thing in her science fiction. ======= That's it! Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:55:49 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Female/male attractiveness (was Moon and Sun) Comments: cc: "Vonda N. McIntyre" , asaro@sff.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the record: - women all over the world DO chose men who have power, money, status, etc despite the fact that they me be horrendously unattractive/undesirable. - men all over the world ASSUME that the world is here to please them to include them getting their every wish in a female partner and some do. - every corollary of both of these truths is also true. - these truths and corollaries are portrayed in all media forms. - these truths, corollaries and the portrayal of such angers a great many women (and some men as well I suspect). - mailing lists, usenet, etc are convenient places to blow off steam about these truths. None of this justifies cherrypicking and wholesale trashing of McIntyres book. Especially trashing that is by way of items gleaned from third party commentary on the text posted in good faith to this list for our thoughtful consideration. The book Moon and Sun deserves thorough reading and patient analysis for the compassion with which it examines human life and its frailties. No one writing today has a body of work that is more extensive, thorough, and fully successful in portraying realistic, humane, and equitable relationships between men and women in all possible variations then Vonda McIntyre. Why oh why do we continue to do the greatest damage to our most dedicated sisters? And for the sake of the list members who are not interested, please respond to me privately if my comments have displeased in any way. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:58:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Female/male attractiveness (was Moon and Sun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What an image! Hadn't thought of that! The "Other Kathleen" wrote... >>Can you imagine waiting at a supermarket line, and seeing face after insipid interchangable young male face on the covers of magazines devoted to helping men achieve that interchangable youthfullness, while the only women shown were middle-aged and older, on the covers of news magazines, as policy makers? wow. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:57:15 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My son is now 12, and is an inveterate reader. He's like a _Little_Man_Tate_. He spontaneously began reading road signs to us when he had just turned two. He hasn't quit reading since. By the time he was eight, he could curl up with a user's manual for a new piece of computer software, read the thing in an afternoon, and from that moment on know how to run the program. That's something I can't do or even conceive of doing. So he's a pretty good reader with great comprehension and retention. For fun, he loves to read Sci-Fi, mainly Star Trek novels and Star Wars. He has also collected and read the 11 book C.A.D.S. series about a mechanized, futuristic war dystopia. Ditto everything written by J. R. R. Tolkein. Before he grows so old he's totally set in his ways, I'd like to introduce him to some stories that will stimulate him to think about feminist issues, about unreasonable expectations in our society, and the like. If anyone has some good suggestions--stories that are both thought provoking and engaging enough to hold a preteen's interest--please pass them on. Thanks Jim Hollomon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:07:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: OT: 2 art events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Two things, both of feminist interest, 1 sf-related: This week at the Museum of Modern Art, an exhibition on Yayoi Kusama (Kusama Yayoi in Japan): Kusama is a feminist artist (although there's been a certain amount of debate on that). She lived in NYC in the sixties-seventies and produced very early performance art and installations; she's produced art in a variety of media to the present. Much of her work is rooted in her self- admitted insanity (she currently resides in a mental institution in Tokyo, maintaining her studio and art-world contacts). One of her interesting series involves stuffed phallic shapes of fabric obsessively covering objects including an armchair, rowboat, ladder, high-heels (not sure yet what's in the show). She's here in NY for the opening; an interview with her (with my bus. partner Reiko Tomii as interpreter) will be aired over NPR sometime in the next couple of days. And, of course, there's more info on MOMA's web page (www.moma.org, I think). The second is the publication this month (after 11 years!) of a major work by Linda Dalrymple Henderson: Duchamp in Context: Science and Technology in the Large Glass and Related Works (Princeton University Press). Okay, may sound deadly, but it's glorious reading, especially if you have any interest in spiritualism, the occult, turn of the century technology and popular culture, charicterization of sexual roles or sexual interaction, or early sf--- they all tie in to elements of the Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even (the Large Glass) and Duchamp's great production of notes and drawings for it. This work, the mechanical (sexual, chemical, electrical, telepathic...) interaction of the Bachelors and the Bride, is pure science fiction in art. It's expensive for the private pocket, but it should hit University & other libraries-- if it sounds at all interesting, give it a try. There's info on the Glass and Duchamp all over the internet, but one page is Tony Smith's: http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/Duch.html If you want to see a picture of the Large Glass, there's one at: http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/LGL.gif Enjoy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:12:33 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: scattershot stray thoughts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" RE: Positive protrayals of Guinevere in her many spellings/incarnations. THE CHILD QUEEN from Del REy came out a few years ago and I thought it was a good read of G's life BEFORE Arthur. Did not read the sequel, THE HIGH QUEEN, because I figured, "been there, done that..." RE: MOA as a feminist novel/not. If not, is it really a good text to have in a number of feminist lit classes? At least it was back in my day... things may have moved on. Does it serve as some kind of "transition" novel for the younger/less-well-read reader, who may embrace the positive aspects as many here have spoken of without being challenged by something more distinctly feminist in agenda? RE: Jo Clayton. I miss her terribly. Recommend she be read. Warning: her brain seems to operate in trilogy mode, but they are most often three novel which make up a story, rather than one story in three books, if that distinction is clear... Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:49:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG MOA -- Gwen and ugly men In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Jul 98 19:41:44 CDT." >I have *never* found a portrayal of the Guinevere character that I >liked. Jane Yolen has a collection of short stories entitled _Merlin's Booke_, about what you 'd expect, featuring a Guenevere who dresses as a boy, comes to court to challenge the man who dishonored her sister, and tricks the sword out of the stone and sticks a different one in before Arthur gets to it. Ugly men getting the beautiful woman -- there is a difference between an author saying to herself, "Hmm, how can I make this basically feminist novel also appeal to non-feminist men, oh, I'll give the girl to this ugly guy"; and looking at a book and saying, "Hey, non-feminist men might read this novel and get into it enough that they start to think about the feminist issues too." In the same way that Kmfriello said that her objection wasn't to Lucien's character in particular, it seems a misrepresentation to take Catherine's statement as simply promoting a sop to men's pride. Your mileage may vary. Kmfriello said that she doesn't care whether men read feminist SF or, if I extrapolate correctly, get into feminism at all. But I went to a heavily male school and now work in a field that is overwhelmingly male, and I can't possibly afford to reject all the non-feminists around me. There wouldn't be enough people left. Given that, I'd rather make an effort to convert 'em. Nor does that have to mean compromising my feminism. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:31:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: MML essay In-Reply-To: <35A45BE3.7FBE@sff.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:59 AM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >After pondering for a while, I've decided to post an excerpt from an >essay written by a member of the listserv that relates to a discusison >we had a few months ago. Catherine, I was pleased to see you post Michael's essay to the list. I really enjoyed reading it in the NYRSF, especially after reading your posts to this list on the subject. I think he did a nice job writing it and since our discussion inspired it, the group should get a chance to read it. Thanks! Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:11:45 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: * * Subject: Re: Female/male attractiveness (was Moon and Sun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit They had the results of a rather interesting poll on a television program the other day(sorry, can't remember which show it was) where they asked people if they thought they were better than average looking. Something like 60% of the men, and only 20% of the women, said "yes". I was a little surprised actually, as I thought the percentage of men would be higher and the percentage of women lower. --Marie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:30:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Female/male attractiveness (was Moon and Sun) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On the discussion whether it is good or bad to cater to male egos by inserting "conventional" features (like, beautiful women falling for pathetic ugly losers) into feminist novels, my opinion is the following: I do believe that men should be included into the equal-rights society feminists are trying to build. For those of us who are heterosexual, including myself, a world without guys won't be that great. So we've gotta keep them, at least for one thing. Some of them might even be good for more than that. Since they (males) are going to be around, it will be probably in everyone's interest that they won't be too alienated (so it will be a truly equal society, not a female dominance instead of the male one). Which means that men and their feelings should be respected as much as everyone else's. However, there is a difference between _respect_ and _catering to one's ego_. I do not believe that the only way to make men feel "comfortable" is to present them with a "loser getting the girl" situation. After all, not all of them associate themselves with losers (although lots of them really do, which frustrates me beyond belief. The worst part about it is the fact that when a guy thinks he is worthless, he thinks that if you love him, you must be worthless, too. Which I have not figured out yet how to deal with). Moreover, perpetuating this kind of "woman as a gift item / consolation prize" attitude does not do men any good, either. I think one would only benefit from learning that relationship can be between equals, and that if one wants a great woman, he might want to evolve from being a loser for starters. And that men do not have to have a young pretty girl as a proof of status, since there can be great women of all ages, plus the ones of the same generation might see them as more than an upleasant supplement to the high social position and the fat bank account. I agree with Catherine that it's important for women to be integrated in the big world instead of creating a little ghetto one "for women only". After all, a big part of the reason why lots of women do not accept feminism is because they think it means being "against men". Which can be too much of a price if one is not homosexual. There might also be things in the "men's" world that women do not want to give up. Besides, separate is never equal, as the history proves again and again. However, making peace with men does not have to mean luring them into accepting feminism through dressing it up into "gentle pretty nice woman" clothes. It's the same as hoping to do away with segregation by trying to prove to bigots that people of other races are not gonna hurt them just by sitting in the front of the bus. I think that the whole point of feminism is to achieve acceptance of women the way they are. And those men who can only accept a woman if she is "non-threatening" are not really worth fighting for. After all, they need us as much as we need them. If we don't keep reinforcing the "good woman = nice, pretty woman" stereotypes ourselves, they'll have to be happy with whatever they can get. Mind you, I do not have anything against Vonda McIntire's novel. I have not even read it yet. But I agree that saying that "having a non-threatening female character in it will help getting through to men" (or whatever was the exact quote) was hardly a compliment. After all, if getting through to men _at any cost_ was that important, why not make pro-feminist porn movies, with women shouting equal-rights slogans while scratching someone's back? I bet that would attract attention of the most anti-feminist men. And it would work, too, by getting those slogans into their subconsiousness and associating them with the most pleasant sensations. Like Pavlov's dogs, you know. Next thing you see, all those fraternity / construction worker / government official types will be mumbling "equal pay and legal abortions" and "stop sexual harrassment" in their sleep. As I want to repeat, all this semi-flame war discussion was not about Vonda's book but about the idea accidentally presented in someone's comment on it. And by the way, I think that Catherine and Kathleen are pretty much saying the same thing from different angles, so they could as well stop bashing each other. We _don't_ have to always agree just because we all are feminists -- this is not Southern Baptist church, or something else with the One Possible Truth. But when both people are right, agreement can make sense. Marina P.S. I still stand by my opinion that power makes old men not attractive but obnoxious. "Young women are attracted to rich/powerful old men" is a myth (perpetuated by the older men, I suspect), because it implies "_all_ young women". Maybe there are young women who are, but they are not the majority. Not all of us have the Monica Lewinsky's yucky preferences, believe it or not. That is simply a deviation, just like the Aedipus's complex for guys. http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:21:30 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jan Bandrofchak Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'd suggest Ursula LeGuin - she has written so many wonderful books. I'm sure others on this list will have additional suggestions. Good luck... Jan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:48:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Jim Hollomon wrote: > My son is now 12, and is an inveterate reader. >> snip << > Before he grows so old he's totally set in his ways, I'd like to introduce him > to some stories that will stimulate him to think about feminist issues, about > unreasonable expectations in our society, and the like. If anyone has some > good suggestions--stories that are both thought provoking and engaging enough > to hold a preteen's interest--please pass them on. What about Alexei Panshin's _Rite of Passage_? I believe it's out of print now, but turns up frequently in used bookstores. It is a "classic", but since its subject is the coming into adulthood of a young starship traveller, and it's pretty action oriented, it may not be too old for your son. The story is told in the first person, from the point of view of a young girl and begins when she is twelve. A lot of the book is concerned with the child's developing abilities and her learning to get along with different children, including those less gifted or courageous than she, but I don't think it's didactic. It has some great passages about the high-tech ship culture's encounters with planet-bound fundamentalists and also contains two great little modern fairy tales. It does deals briefly with the beginning of sexuality for the protaganist. That's my vote - you may enjoy reading it yourself, if you haven't already! Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:24:08 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Hollomon wrote: > My son is now 12, and is an inveterate reader. He's like a _Little_Man_Tate_. > He spontaneously began reading road signs to us when he had just turned two. > He hasn't quit reading since. By the time he was eight, he could curl up with > a user's manual for a new piece of computer software, read the thing in an > afternoon, and from that moment on know how to run the program. That's > something I can't do or even conceive of doing. So he's a pretty good reader > with great comprehension and retention. > I would recommend a number of Anne McCaffrey's books - particularly Sassinak, and related books in that series, and the BrainShip series of books - The Ship Who Sang, PartnerShip, The City Who Fought and I think there are one or two more in that series. Also, the first book in McCaffrey's 'Talents of Earth' series - The Rowan - my 13 year-old daughter was besotted with that book and there's plenty in it to appeal to both genders. Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:28:30 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG MOA - misc. In-Reply-To: <5d5aca7a.35a0f878@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It is the second time I read _Mists of Avalon_ and contrary to the first time when I've read the book through in a few days, this time every time I stop it takes some days till I go back to it because it is really sad and tragic and I know how it ends. I am only at Arthur's wedding at the moment. I agree with many of the posts so far. Especially with Marina's assessment on sex and sexual assertiveness of women in the book. On 8 Jul 98 Anne Hunter wrote: > Does it seem to others that MZB intended to portray Gwynhwyfar as > suffering from a panic disorder including agoraphobia? ... I'm not > sure why MZB chose to show her this way. I wondered too. > On Igraine, whose characterization I otherwise enjoyed, I couldn't > understand her reported conversion to Christianity when she married > Uther, whom we were told was not strongly on the Christian side. It > seemed that the Goddess religion had brought her happiness, but then > she turned away from it. That left me completely baffled the first and the second time I came to that point in the book. For me that switch is completely unmotivated. From what happened to Igraine before I expected that Igraine develops her abilities further. There was some discussion on it that there are several parts in the book which can be criticised from a feminist perspective. Julieanne listed several relevant points: > For a start all the women > characters can only achieve power through men. They use mostly > traditional feminine ways of trying to achieve power: their > sexuality and/or emotional manipulation. ... Morgaine ... > needs Accolon > to fight for Avalon - Damsel in Distress? etc. What I missed was a description of the everyday life in a household of the goddess believers. The different concepts would have an impact on that (or the different concepts would be the result of it). Lot is described as an old believer (if for opportunistic reasons), as far as I remember Morgaine's husband more or less too, but still the only picture presented is that of the man as provider, defender and decision-maker, the woman as the chatelaine. The only everyday life aspect of the goddess religion mentioned is the Beltane festival. Perhaps the idea is that everything is already changed by the influence of the Christian religion but still there should be a remainder of the ways before. Or the priestesses should note that they have lost already. Or have I forgotten or overlooked something? On 7 Jul 98 Julieanne wrote: > - historical innaccuracies, some of which are glaring, I find to be > a minor criticism of Mists. Uh, I always thought the legend about Arthur is more or less a myth, that there was no historical Arthur. I hardly know the British history before 1066 (and only the highlights after that). I am curious: Was there really a king called Arthur? And what are the historical inaccuracies (the more important ones)? On 6 Jul 98 Kathleen M. Friello wrote: > I've been scraping together references for hardcopy reviews and > critical writings, but this takes a little longer. I have found that > MOA made a great impression on German readers, and has inspired at > least one critical book in that language. I know that MOA has been widely read in Germany (at least all my (female) friends have). It was one of the books one hands to a friend with the recommendation to READ it. But is that different to other European countries besides the UK? Or even different to the UK and North America? Petra P.S.: In case somebody noticed, I have a new email address as I have changed to a new job. I live part time in Kassel now (the city of the Documenta, however, the next one is only in 2002). *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:53:38 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/10/98 2:49:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kmhouse@HALCYON.COM writes: << What about Alexei Panshin's _Rite of Passage_? >> Kathleen, Thanks so much for your thoughtful suggestion. I knew I could count on my FSFFU friends for some great ideas. I really love the intellectual stimulation of this list. I also love used bookstore hunting. I'll make it a point to find _Rite of Passage_ and when I do, I'll be sure to read it along with Conrad. If you like, I'll let you know our impressions. Thanks again, Jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:53:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/10/98 3:30:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: << I would recommend a number of Anne McCaffrey's books >> Julieanne, Thanks so much for taking the time to write. I knew I could count on the FSFFU list readers. I really enjoy being on this list. I'll get some of Anne's work, and see how Conrad takes to her writing. Sounds like it might be just the ticket. If you like, I'll let you know how it goes. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:06:18 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/10/98 1:32:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JanBan@AOL.COM writes: << I'd suggest Ursula LeGuin - she has written so many wonderful books. I'm sure others on this list will have additional suggestions. Good luck... >> Thanks Jan, I knew I could count on my FSFFU friends for some good ideas. As fortune would have it, I found a copy of _Techanu_, the last of Ursula's _Earthsea_ series, in the thrift store the other day. It's now sitting right at the top of our to-be-read stack. Thanks for the pointer. If you'd like, I'll give you a report on Conrad's reaction to it. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:12:54 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG MOA - misc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > On 7 Jul 98 Julieanne wrote: > > - historical innaccuracies, some of which are glaring, I find to be > > a minor criticism of Mists. > > Uh, I always thought the legend about Arthur is more or less a myth, > that there was no historical Arthur. I hardly know the British > history before 1066 (and only the highlights after that). I am > curious: Was there really a king called Arthur? And what are the > historical inaccuracies (the more important ones)? The main ones I saw, was mostly juxtaposing historical events/characters in one lifetime ( ie. several decades in the book), for events which actually occurred over a period of centuries. For example, a Bishop that is a contemporary of Saint Patrick, the invasions of the "Saxons," in Britain and the invasion of Spain by the Islamic Moors. As for Arthur's existence, at that point in time, most of the British Isles were a relatively loose conglomeration of peoples. There had been several waves of invasion by various European peoples - including Danaanites, who gave the name to both Denmark and Dublin in Ireland - variously colonised/conquered different parts. The least invaded/conquered were the northern Pictish/Scottish peoples and the Welsh. There is evidence that several Kings/Princes, named Arthur existed. It is known, that it was common practice for centuries to rename kings/princes etc after the local variant of the 'God', after they had become King - some of the more common names were Bran in southern Britain, Ardur ( Arrdu, Artuu, Artrut - other spellings) in Scotland, and in Welsh, Vron. Gwion is another common one, probably Irish. Much as many Roman Emperors were often called Caesar. As for the Tale of King Arthur as most people recognise it, its based on the Malory's Mort d'Arthur, which according to most scholars is a mythical/legendary or "fantasy" story that may have been embellished from earlier tales told by the Druidic priests and minstrels. How much is true, or even how much was based on the original Druid tales, and how much Malory invented for the sake of a good story, will probably never be known. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:28:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Jim Hollomon wrote: > > I knew I could count on my FSFFU friends for some good ideas. As fortune would > have it, I found a copy of _Techanu_, the last of Ursula's _Earthsea_ series, > in the thrift store the other day. It's now sitting right at the top of our > to-be-read stack. Thanks for the pointer. > If you'd like, I'll give you a report on Conrad's reaction to it. hi jim, just my opinion, but i think a 12-year-old might appreciate the first three earthsea books more than "tehanu." they're all good, but "tehanu" was written some time after the original trilogy, and is really more...introspective?...than the others, at least as i remember it. i read anne mccaffrey's "dragonriders of pern" trilogy when i was about that age, along with another pern trilogy that was aimed more at young readers...dragonsong/dragonsinger/dragondrums, iirc. -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:03:52 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 8 Jul 1998 to 9 Jul 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to leave for Readercon, but there is something that needs to be made clear, least there be doubt. I do not believe the things that are being ascribed either directly or obliquely to me below. Since this is a public forum, and I am being attributed with things that I neither said nor believe, the following needs to go on the record: I have always supported, spoken out for, and written about women's right to be accepted as they are, for what they are, on their own terms, in an egalitarian society. I have always spoken out against the imbalance of the roles of women, men, and sexuality, in both literature and real life, and I have been willing to do it in a lot more hostile environments than this. I've been on the front lines for the past thirty years, standing up for exactly the types of things that are being supported here. And here is something to think about: creating an argument "among ourselves" that =doesn't exist= plays right into the stereotypes that women can't get together and form a movement. Why? Because it wastes energy sniping at each other that could be used to better purpose elsewhere. For the record: my comment was an observation on how men react to certain types of male characters. It was in no way a comment in support of the social causes that go into that, and whether or not those causes are valid. > On the discussion whether it is good or bad to cater to male egos by > inserting "conventional" features (like, beautiful women falling for > pathetic ugly losers) into feminist novels,: No one here suggested that this should be done. I DO NOT believe it. > However, making peace with men does not have to mean luring them into > accepting feminism through dressing it up into "gentle pretty nice woman" > clothes. No one here suggested that it did. I DO NOT believe this. > If we don't keep reinforcing the "good woman = nice, pretty woman" > stereotypes ourselves, they'll have to be happy with whatever they can get. No one here suggested that it should be reinforced. I DO NOT believe it should. > But I agree that saying that "having a non-threatening female character in it will help > getting through to men" (or whatever was the exact quote) was hardly a compliment. I DID NOT say this. I DO NOT believe it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:14:49 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I passed on your request to the Wiscon people. They sent me a very long list. Not all of these are fantasy, and some might be of limited appeal to a boy, but one never knows. Carol Mitchell At 07:22 AM 7/10/98 , you wrote: >I received the following message from someone who'd come across the SF Book >Discussion page on the SF Web page. Anyone want to take a crack at replying? >>To: sf3@sf3.org >>Subject: SF3 Book Discussion: >>Can anyone give me some advice? Can you recommend some books for a >>12-year-old boy, an avid reader, whose father wants him to read some >>books with a feminist slant? Alcott, Louisa May: LITTLE WOMEN Alexander, Lloyd: PRYDAIN CHRONICLES Asimov, Isaac: THE FOUNDATION trilogy Austen Alexander, Lloyd: PRYDAIN series *Austen, Jane Baldry, Cherith *Beagle, Peter S.: THE LAST UNICORN Beagle, Peter S.: A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE Bell, Clare Block, Francesca Lia: WITCH BABY Brackett, Leigh Bradbury, Ray Brust: THE PHOENIX GUARDS Brust: FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER Bujold, Lois McMaster Burnett, Frances Hodgson: THE SECRET GARDEN Burnett: THE LITTLE PRINCESS Busby, F.M. Canfield-Fisher, Dorothy: UNDERSTOOD BETSY *Carroll, Lewis: ALICE IN WONDERLAND Charnas, Suzy McKee: THE BRONZE KING Charnas, Suzy McKee: THE SILVER GLOVE Charnas, Suzy McKee: THE GOLDEN THREAD Charnas, Suzy McKee: THE KINGDOM OF KEVIN MALONE Christie, Agatha Clarke, Arthur C.: good short stories Clarke, Arthur: RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA Clayton, Jo Clement, Hal: MISSION OF GRAVITY Clement, Hal: NEEDLE Cooper, Susan: OVER SEA, UNDER STONE Cooper, Susan: REDWALL Dalkey, Kara Dean, Pamela: THE SECRET COUNTRY Dean, Pamela: THE HIDDEN LAND Dean, Pamela: THE WHIM OF THE DRAGON DeLint, Charles: RIDDLE OF THE WREN Dickens Dickinson, Peter: THE CHANGES books Downer, Ann *Duane, Diane: SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD Dumas, Alexandre Dunsany, Lord: BEYOND THE FIELDS THAT WE KNOW Durrell, Gerald: MY FAMILY AND OTHER ANIMALS Durrell, Gerald: ROSY IS MY RELATIVE Eager, Edward: HALF MAGIC Elgin, Suzette Haden: OZARK trilogy Elliott, George: THE KISSING MAN Ellison, Harlan Engdahl, Sylvia Louise Fitzhugh, Louise: HARRIET THE SPY Ford, John M: GROWING UP WEIGHTLESS Forester, C.S.: HORNBLOWER books *Furlong, Monica: WISE CHILD *Furlong, Monica: JUNIPER Gallico, Paul: THE MAN WHO WAS MAGIC Garner, Alan: ELIDOR Garner, Alan: THE OWL SERVICE Garner, Alan: THE WEIRDSTONE OF BRISINGHAMEN Gentle, Mary: A HAWK IN SILVER Godden, Rumer: AN EPISODE OF SPARROWS Goldman, William: THE PRINCESS BRIDE Grey, Nicholas Stuart: GRIMBOLD'S OTHER WORLD Halam, Ann: DAYBREAKER trilogy (it's EARTHSEA for girls) Heinlein, Robert: THE STAR BEAST *Henderson, Zenna: People stories Hoffman, Nina Kirikki: THE SILENT STRENGTH OF STONES Hoover, H.M.: CHILDREN OF MORROW Hoover, H.M.: WINDS OF MARS Kerguelen, Rissa Jaques, Brian: Redwall books Jones, Diana Wynne Kagan, Janet: Mirable stories Kendall, Carol: THE GAMMAGE CUP Kress, Nancy: BEGGARS IN SPAIN series Lee, Harper: TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD *L'Engle, Madeleine: A WRINKLE IN TIME LeGuin, Ursula: EARTHSEA trilogy, starts with A WIZARD OF EARTHSEA *Lewis, C.S.: THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE/Narnia books Lewis, C.S.: OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET trilogy Linklater, Eric: THE WIND ON THE MOON Mac Avoy, Roberta: THE THIRD EAGLE Mac Avoy, Roberta: TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON Mac Avoy, Roberta: DAMIANO trilogy MacDonald, John D: THE GIRL, THE GOLD WATCH, AND EVERYTHING MacDonald, George: THE LIGHT PRINCESS Maguire, Greg: I FELL LIKE THE MORNING STAR Maguire, Greg: OASIS Maguire, Greg: MISSING SISTERS Maguire, Greg: SEVEN SPIDERS SPINNING Malot, Henri Hector: NOBODY'S GIRL Marsh, Ngaio: mystery books May, Julian: MANY-COLOURED LAND series McIntyre, Vonda: BARBARY McKillip, Patricia McKinley, Robin: THE HERO AND THE CROWN McKinley, Robin: THE BLUE SWORD McKinley, Robin: anything except Deerskin Moon, Elizabeth Moore, C.L. Mowat, Farley: THE DOG WHO WOULDN'T BE M'Tana, Zelde Nesbit, A.E. Nesbit, E.: FIVE CHILDREN AND IT *Norton, Andre: good juveniles O'Dell, Scott: ISLAND OF THE BLUE DOLPHONS Panshin, Alexei: RITE OF PASSAGE (a feminist rebuttal to Heinlein's sexist girl-hero book, Podkayne of Mars) Panshin, Alexei: THE STAR WELL Panshin, Alexei: THE THURB REVOLUTION Panshin, Alexei: MASQUE WORLD Peters, Ellis: CADFAEL BOOKS Pierce, Tamora: ALANNA AND DAIN series Pierce, Tamora: LIONESS RAMPANT series Pinkwater, Daniel: THE SNARKOUT BOYS Pinkwater, Daniel: THE AVOCADO OF DEATH Pinkwater, Daniel: ALAN MENDELSOHN, THE BOY FROM MARS Platt, Kin: THE BOY WHO COULD MAKE HIMSELF DISAPPEAR Pullman: GOLDEN COMPASS Queen, Ellery: mysteries Ransome, Arthur: SWALLOWS AND AMAZONS Sawyer, Ruth: ROLLER SKATES Schmitz, James H: THE WITCHES OF KARRES Sherman, Delia: THROUGH A BRAZEN MIRROR Smith, Cordwainer Smith, Dodie: I CAPTURE THE CASTLE * Smith, Sherwood: good juveniles Snyder, Zilpha Keatley Springer, Nancy: THE HEX WITCH OF SELDOM STAR WARS YOUNG ADULT books Stevermer, Caroline: RIVER RATS Sturgeon, Theodore Thurbur, James: FABLES FOR OUR TIME Thurbur, James: FURTHER FABLES FOR OUR TIME Thurbur, James: THE NIGHT THE BED FELL ON FATHER Thurbur, James: THE THIRTEEN CLOCKS Thurbur, James: THE WHITE DEER Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT Tripod, John Christopher *White, T.H: MISTRESS MASHAM'S REPOSE (one of the best kid's books ever written) White, T.H.: THE ONCE AND FUTURE KING White, T.H.: THE SWORD AND THE STONE Wilder, Cherry: A PRINCESS OF THE CHAMELN Wilder, Cherry: YORATH THE WOLF Wilder, Cherry: THE SUMMER'S KING Wilder, Cherry: THE LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE Windling, Terri and Mark Arnold (eds):BORDERLAND/BORDERTOWN anthology *Wrede, Patricia: TALKING TO DRAGONS Yolen, Jane THE (RED, GREEN, BLUE FAIRY TALE BOOKS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:34:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: BDG MOA - misc. In-Reply-To: <35A62166.FDDF754B@ozemail.com.au> from "Julieanne" at Jul 11, 98 00:12:54 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sic scribit Julieanne: > > were often called Caesar. As for the Tale of King Arthur as most people > recognise it, its based on the Malory's Mort d'Arthur, which according to > most scholars is a mythical/legendary or "fantasy" story that may have > been embellished from earlier tales told by the Druidic priests and > minstrels. How much is true, or even how much was based on the original > Druid tales, and how much Malory invented for the sake of a good story, > will probably never be known. > Actually, Malory's direct translations and original inventions are very well known; look at the work of Eugune Vinaver and other Arthurian scholars. In addition, "Druid tales" have little or nothing to do with the Arthurian tales, at least in any sense we can recover. The historical Arthur is mostly wishful thinking (with a little history of post-Roman Britain thrown in); the literary Arthur is the joint creation of Geoffrey of Monmouth and Chretien de Troyes in the 1150s-1170s. Geoffrey and Chretien were working off of older legends and folk sources, but it's rare for such material to survive due to its oral nature. The Welsh Mabinogion is probably the closest we'll ever get to such tales ("Culhwch and Olwen" has been called a ninth or tenth century story), but even that text exists only in late medieval manuscripts. Ob *Mists of Avalon*. Not my favorite Arthurian re-vision, but it definitely seems to have been a powerful text for young women readers, particularly teenagers. When I teach my Arthurian Lit. class, I almost always have at least one woman in the room who's read it and loves it. I myself find it to be a text that introduces (or makes popular) a number of new tropes in the Arthurian tradition: the pagan/Christian conflict and retelling the Matter of Britain from a woman's perspective being the two most important. I do admit to finding Bradley's portrait of Guenevere disturbing and a bit offensive, esp. in the scene in which Arthur and Lancelot bed her together and end up using her as a conduit for their own unrealized passions for each other. That one had me reaching for my copy of Gayle Rubin's "Traffic in Women." I have an ambiguous relation to Bradley. In putting together my women's sf course, I considered using some of her work, but decided against it in part after reading several of her bitter arguments against feminist women writers in the sf field (the main reason for excluding her was the limited schedule and the presence of a good many authors I prefer: Moore, Le Guin, Murphy, Shelley, Russ, Wilhelm, Tiptree/Sheldon, Moffett, Tuttle, Dorman Hess, Emshwiller, Scott, Cadigan, and Dorsey). Ob women and Arthur: I would like to recommend what I think is a more interesting text on gender issues and women's role in a quasi-Arthurian setting, Heldris of Cornwall's *Roman de Silence* (ca. 1275). It's available in a good English translation, and I really got a kick out of teaching it. Silence is a young woman trained as a boy/squire in order to keep the family lands (the king has ordered that no women shall inherit); she grows up to be the mightiest knight in the land, gets caught up in cross-dressing intrique at the King's court (the King has these "feelings" about his young protege, and the Queen attempts to seduce the "lad" behind his back), goes out on a quest to find Merlin, and is finally revealed to be a woman (the Queen has become evil at this point, dies, and Silence takes her place). The ending is more ambiguous than it sounds in this summary; Heldris is noticeably evasive about whether this is a happy ending for his/her (we're not sure who Heldris was) hero, and the allegorical personifications of Nature and Nurture (yes!) have held a running argument about gender roles throughout the romance. And then there's Chretien's *Erec and Enide* . . . but that's a romance for another day. Best, Rob Barrett -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Garden shrugged. "I see no reason to give the Heroes priority. The world is a One Twist Ring: we affect the Mist, the Mist affects the real world. Stories from one get told in the other." - Sean Stewart, _Clouds End_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:51:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: BDG: MOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anne said: > >Does it seem to others that MZB intended to portray Gwynhwyfar as >suffering from a panic disorder including agoraphobia? I have friends >who've suffered from anxiety attacks, and it sounds like that's what >Gwyn has. She recalls at one point that as a child she enjoyed >playing outside, when she was taken to visit the ruins at Camelot, but >knows that now she would just panic. It seems as if the problem may >have started from her time at the convent, and perhaps even from the >incident when she met Lancelot and Morgaine, or else from the sense of >guilt that the priests instilled. So she's not just a pale "girly >girl", all prim and pious -- she's a deeply troubled person. Yes! I didn't notice it years ago when I read MOA the first time, but this time it was crystal clear to me from the beginning. >I'm not sure why MZB chose to show her this way. Like you, I'm not sure either. I kept looking for some kind of 'pay-off', some reason tied to the original legend, or perhaps some kind of experience after which Gwen. finds herself 'cured' and therefore able to make a more positive contribution to events, but none of that seemed to materialise. Comments, anyone? I have to admit I was not looking forward to re-reading this book. The first time I read it, back when it came out, I was really anticipating enjoying its female viewpoint on my favourite legend. But I found myself left at the end with a very depressing, negative feeling. The women were depressingly manipulative and flawed, and the attitude towards men seemed overwhelmingly negative. I'd never read the Darkover novels and the one time I went to an SF convention where MZB was one of the guests, I had a rather negative experience with her in a discussion group. So no, I was not looking forward to this book. Thank goodness I was pleasantly surprised for the most part, even though I did get somewhat impatient with _some_ of the long-winded description. Although I will never like MZB's Gwynhwyfar, I do like her complex characters and the tolerant attitude towards religious diversity that Merlyn and the older characters kept reminding others of (even though so few listened). I have enjoyed reading all of the thoughtful posts others have written. I recognise my own thoughts in some of them, but as usual, I got too caught up in the story to analyse it well afterwards. :) The one thing that kept popping into my head all through the book was that there seemed to be all sorts of personal (authorial) issues woven into the characters and story, which made me curious about MZB's own life and what led her to re-write this legend the way she did. I suppose this means I should take a look at the bibliography posted previously (sigh). Does anyone have any insights? Monica ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: N Clowder Subject: Moon & Sun - ugly man gets the girl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm going to comment on the theme of the "ugly man gets the pretty girl." My focus is not on the theme in the media/literature in general but in its connection to THE MOON & THE SUN. There's been some discussion of the character Lucien as an exemplar of the ugly man. I scanned the text pretty carefully up through page 128. Nowhere is Lucien described as ugly or as having any kind of disfigurement. When he first appears, Marie-Josephe, seeing him on horseback, mistakes him for a boy or a page. He is VERY short. That is the ONLY piece of information we are given to indicate that his appearances are out of the ordinary. For the rest, he dresses well (though does not slavishly follow court fashion), rides a wonderful horse, and performs various gallantries. It isn't until page 128 that we learn that he is a dwarf: "Mlle de la Croix, it was years ago that I noticed I'm a dwarf. It's common knowledge. You needn't be embarrassed to notice it yourself." "May I draw you?" Marie-Josephe asked. "For a gallery of oddities? Shall my likeness hang among ape-men and sea monsters?" "No! Oh no! Your face is beautiful. Your hands are beautiful. I would like to draw you." My point is, I wish to question an assumption which I suspect has insinuated itself into the discussion, namely: dwarf = ugly When I read the book, I had a hard time getting it into my head that Lucien was a dwarf. Lucien struck me as the 17th century equivalent of a sensitive new age guy. How did he acquire his sensitivity? The fact that he was not automatically a member of the big-boys club has much to do with it. If I understand correctly, Lucien is a fictional character, not an historical one. How could McIntyre create a character at Louis' court and have him be, believably, as different in his ideas/character as Lucien is? He had to have experienced life as an "outsider" in some way to have his eyes opened (I don't say they're open all the way). McIntyre could have created other problems for Lucien to achieve the same end of characterization - I would be interested in knowing why she chose this one. I realized in the course of reading the book that my mind was not able to hold the image of the dashing, gallant dwarf. I responded to Lucien's courage, his wit, cheered when he sassed the pope, but I repeatedly glossed over references to his size. Regardless of his height, he is a person of great presence. Every time McIntyre held up to me an un-ignorable reference to his dwarf-ness, it was a shock. Clearly, I was ripe for some consciousness-raising. So now I am beginning to make room in my head for a very short person in a gallant role. As the romantic interest developed, I was uncomfortable because Marie-Josephe so easily - so blithely? - responded to Lucien's character, not to his physical appearance. Whereas, were I in her shoes, even though I liked Lucien and found him the true bright light at the court of the Sun King - I knew I would not be able to get past the issue of his height. Is Marie-Josephe more "politically correct" than I am? Is she gullible? Does her choice of Lucien represent some kind of failing? Should she reject the only man remotely worthy of her because he's half her height? Of course, appearances are of great importance in attraction, whether real-world or fictional. I'm not trying to minimize that. But I think that the Marie-Josephe/Lucien romance also serves purposes other than, and better than, catering to male egos. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:14:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kendra Smith Subject: Re: BDG MOA - misc. In-Reply-To: <199807101228.OAA24595@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Uh, I always thought the legend about Arthur is more or less a myth, > that there was no historical Arthur. I hardly know the British > history before 1066 (and only the highlights after that). I am > curious: Was there really a king called Arthur? And what are the > historical inaccuracies (the more important ones)? I am a Medieval Studies major, and if my memory serves me correctly, the Arthurian cycle began as a body of stories told orally by the Britons which were centered around the legendary King who fought valiantly against the Anglo-Saxon invaders. These stories became associated with and co-opted by other peoples in Britian and eventually the name Arthur became associated with the King. Hence, these cycles of tales were widely known and circulated when Chretien de Troyes and (later) Malory wrote their poetic compilations. Maybe this will help, and again: I am going from sketchy memory. I need to go back and read my texts on the actual historocity of these tales. Kendra O'Neal Smith echo1@imap3.asu.edu tristesse7@aol.com http://members.aol.com/tristesse7/dystopia/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:40:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: _Brown Girl in the Ring_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nalo, I just picked up a copy of your book. I'm looking forward to reading it. One quick question: Are you planning to attend the Black Writers' conference at Chicago State this year? Sincerely, Erik Erik Tsao Wayne State University Department of English ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:45:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: dashing, gallant dwarves In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 13:05:01 CDT." <1.5.4.32.19980710180501.008d9ff4@mail.utexas.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >I realized in the course of reading the book that my mind was not able to >hold the image of the dashing, gallant dwarf. I recommend the works of Lois McMaster Bujold, featuring the very short, slightly hunchbacked Miles Vorkosigan (given earlier as an example of non-traditionally-attractive men). There's no way to get around the fact that he's a dwarf; it's a massive part of his identity, and he is "a person of great presence" (as you described Lucien) in part through his attempts to overcome that. One character describes him as "not short...he's just concentrated". He's gallant, he's dashing, he's hyperactive. He's also much more of a nutcase than Lucien, but I'm very fond of him. (These books also have wonderful gender politics, insightful and painful themes of honor and integrity, and a writing style that makes a lot of people inhale them like candy. Mmm.) jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:27:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: attractiveness and gender stereotypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Although I have been totally swamped of late (teaching a technical writing course to 19 students in a 5-week summer session during which we met two hours a day, Monday-Thursday meant that I had papers every day, aieeee), I have been following the discussion about attractiveness, gender expectations, etc. It's wound through a discussion of a number of things, and I was just thinking about one of my favorite writers Barbara Hambly (OK, I didn't like her vampire novel, and I cannot stand the _Star War_ novel though I bought it because I'm a completist, and the Nazi one is a little shaky, but.....). A common thread throughout her works is that conventionally unattractive men and women fall in love under some pretty stressful circumstances. I'm thinking especially of her woman historian/scholar in the _Dark_ series. As usual, I cannot remember her name off the top of my head, and my good books are all home, and I'm at work. Also the computer expert in the alternate world in another trilogy....hmm. I am getting OLD and cannot remember names. But though I cannot remember names, I still resonate to the descriptions of gawky, smart women and homely smart men who are comrades first and rescue each other and are looked upon as weird by their contemporaries (the women coming from our contemporary culture and the men from the alternate universe in the two trilogies I've mentioned) in both worlds and then, wow, love. Not necessarily happy endings--Hambly's universes tend to be pretty gritty and violent *(I'm not sure everyone would look on her work as feminist, but I do--if for nothing else than her female characters who are)* Amyway, highly recommended non-stereotypical fantasies with well drawn and created female and male characters. Robin in Texas where's it's reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyHOT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:11:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Re: Female/male attractiveness (was Moon and Sun) In-Reply-To: (message from * * on Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:11:45 EDT) Marie wrote: >They had the results of a rather interesting poll on a television program >the other day(sorry, can't remember which show it was) where they asked >people if they thought they were better than average looking. Something like >60% of the men, and only 20% of the women, said "yes". >I was a little surprised actually, as I thought the percentage of men would >be higher and the percentage of women lower. On Survey Central ( a make-your-own survey site at http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/bill/bin.cgi/survey.cgi) there's a survey asking respondents to rate their appearance on a scale of 1-10. It's a small pool and fairly self-selected, but I was still impressed to find that most people rated themselves a 7, regardless of sex, and that several people (evenly split by sex) rated themselves a 10. Maybe at least some of us are getting a little better about this? E. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:42:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Comments: To: Heather Law In-Reply-To: <35A64C09.74AF@mc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Heather Law wrote: > Hi > I passed on your request to the Wiscon people. They sent me a very long > list. Not all of these are fantasy, and some might be of limited appeal > to a boy, but one never knows. > Carol Mitchell > >> A memorable list snipped but saved << Heather & all, I don't know about the resta youse guys, but I know how I'm going to spend the next few weeks. What a list! There was Rite of Passage, along with those two terrific froggy/fencing courtier stories (the lister had the good taste to leave out the third, where Panshin ran out of steam and had the sense to stop), *and* the Witches of Karres (what? No Telzy tales?!). And Suzy McKee Charanass writes children's stories?? Oh, happy day. I just got something out the door I've been trying to wrap up for six months - I know just how I'm going to take my brain out to lunch and let it graze. Thanks for posting the list to the List. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:57:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Reading Suggestions for a Young Male / McCaffrey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:57 AM 7/9/98 EDT, you wrote: >My son is now 12, and is an inveterate reader. >Before he grows so old he's totally set in his ways, I'd like to introduce him >to some stories that will stimulate him to think about feminist issues, about >unreasonable expectations in our society, and the like. If anyone has some >good suggestions--stories that are both thought provoking and engaging enough >to hold a preteen's interest--please pass them on. I highly recommend the books of H.M. Hoover. Just a few weeks ago I took a couple of them (*The Bell Tree* and *The Winds of Mars*) out of the library and was pleasantly surprised that I liked them as well as or better than I did as a teenager. All of her books that I have read are far future science fiction and all feature central, strong female characters as well as an array of sympathetic male characters. I find her work stylistically pleasing (it's spare and focused) and I love the fact that she pays attention to psychological detail and is not falsely cheery as some young adult and children's writers are. Re: Julieanne's recommendation of McCaffrey's work: it may seem hypocritical for me to say this, as I read McCaffrey's Dragon books as a teenager and credit them at least partially for making me a science fiction fan... but I would not wholeheartedly advance these books as works that will stimulate your son to think about feminist issues. I posted a message about McCaffrey's Dragonrider series (as distinct from the Harper Hall series) a few months ago with only some vague details about my discomfort with their sexism. Since then I have retrieved my well worn copies from my parents' house and have been able to track down some passages. Dragonflight, p. 152 (F'lar and Lessa meet in a corridor): "He caught her arm and felt her body tense. He set his teeth, wishing, as he had a hundred times since Ramoth rose in her first mating flight, that Lessa had not been virgin too. He had not thought to control his dragon-incited emotions and Lessa's first sexual experience had been violent. <...> He had been a considerate and gentle bedmate ever since, but, unless Ramoth and Mnementh were involved, he might as well call it rape. Yet he knew someday, somehow, he would coax her into responding wholeheartedly to his lovemaking. He had a certain pride in his skill, and he was in a position to persevere." Dragonquest, p. 167 (F'nor and Brekke): "Her body was soft and pliable, her arms went around him, pressing him to her with a total surrender to his virility that he had never before experienced. No matter how eager others had seemed, how gratified, there had never been such a total commitment to him. Such an innocence of... Abruptly F'nor raised his head, looking deep into her eyes. 'You've never slept with T'bor.' He stated it as a fact. 'You've never slept with any man.' " <...> p. 169 (F'nor decides Brekke needs some sex to feel better): He wanted to be gentle but, unaccountably, Brekke fought him. She pleaded with him, crying out wildly that they'd rouse the sleeping Wirenth. He wasn't gentle, but he was thorough, and, in the end, Brekke astounded him with a surrender as passionate as if her dragon had been involved." The White Dragon, p. 212 (Jaxom arrives at Corana's Hold): "Ruth achieved a landing on the narrow margin between grain and wall. Corana, recovering from surprise at his unexpected arrival, waved a welcome. Instead of rushing toward him as she usually did, she smoothed back her hair and blotted the perspiration beading her face. 'Jaxom,' she began, as he strode toward her, the urgency in his loins increasing at the sight of her. 'I wish you wouldn't --' He silenced her half-teasing scold with a kiss, felt something hard clout him along his side. Pinning her against him with his right arm, he found the offending hoe with his left hand. Wrenching it from her grasp, he spun it away from them. Corana wriggled to get free, as unprepared for this mood in him as he was. He held her closer, trying to temper the pressures rising within him until she could respond." In all of these passages male sexuality is portrayed as dominating and remorseless. The men have the power to force sex and they don't hesitate to use that power. In the end, it is implied, this is what the women really want after all. I want to point out, for those who have not read these books, that F'lar, F'nor and Jaxom are three of the most important characters in the Dragonrider series. They are protagonists -- not perfect, but very positively viewed by the author. Clearly McCaffrey doesn't have any problem with this rapist mentality, at least in fiction. Where sex is not involved, McCaffrey does better. In Dragonflight, Lessa successfully challenges the convention that queen dragons don't fly and saves all of Pern by flying back in time and convincing the Oldtimers to help fight Thread. The main character of the Harper Hall Trilogy, Menolly, fights against the tradition that "women can't be harpers" and wins. (This trilogy was also written for younger readers and omits sex almost entirely.) But the treatment of sexuality in most of McCaffrey's work (The Rowan included -- I haven't read Sassinak) is so problematic that I would not recommend it for adolescent readers unless you're prepared to discuss it. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC's English Settlement; Bran Van 3000's Glee "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: attractiveness and gender stereotypes In-Reply-To: <199807102127.QAA23794@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:27 PM 7/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >... I was just thinking about one of my favorite writers Barbara Hambly >A common thread throughout her works is that conventionally unattractive men >and women fall in love under some pretty stressful circumstances. >... though I cannot remember names, I still resonate to the >descriptions of gawky, smart women and homely smart men who are comrades >first and rescue each other and are looked upon as weird by their >contemporaries (the women coming from our contemporary culture and the men >from the alternate universe in the two trilogies I've mentioned) in both >worlds and then, wow, love. Relating to Marina's earlier point about age disparities in couples... isn't it weird that Hambly's women consistently fall for men who are QUITE a bit older than they are? I've read a number of her books (Darwath, Windrose and Sun Wolf/Starhawk series as well as *Stranger at the Wedding* and *Dragonsbane*) and after a while I could just tell, "Well, the protagonist has met this guy, he's eccentric and he's not conventionally attractive and he's 15 years older than she is... they're going to be an item pretty soon." It seemed downright strange. Of course it's been a while since I read any of them and there may have been some books that broke the mold. I do remember being frustrated in the Windrose series when I wanted Joanna and Caris to get together, but he was too young and good looking. Nope, she was carrying a torch for crazy, bespectacled Antryg who was more like twice her age. There is much to recommend Hambly's work, don't get me wrong. I LOVED *The Ladies of Mandrigyn* (mercenary is kidnapped by a group of noble ladies to teach them the art of war -- very stimulating -- at times hilarious, at times creepy) and more recently enjoyed *Stranger at the Wedding* (except for the ending which was somewhat of a letdown). I like her "grittiness" as well. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC's English Settlement; Bran Van 3000's Glee "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:37:17 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Vivian Lee Subject: Re: Female/male attractiveness (was Moon and Sun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/9/98 11:59:21 AM, you wrote: << >>Can you imagine waiting at a supermarket line, and seeing face after insipid interchangable young male face on the covers of magazines devoted to helping men achieve that interchangable youthfullness, while the only women shown were middle-aged and older, on the covers of news magazines, as policy makers? >> this would rock. this image will cause me to go to bed happy. V. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:14:21 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: Reading Suggestions for a Young Male / McCaffrey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/10/98 11:53:33 PM, you wrote: <> And then there's her short story collection "Get Off The Unicorn" with her "experiment in soft porn", "The Thorns of Barevi". Let's just say that the enslaved human female, gets raped by the huge alien invader; and likes it. Not one of her better efforts; in my not so humble (read snarling) opinion. Has anyone suggested Elizabeth Lynn's Tornor Trilogy? Have little experience with what kids need, but I loved it and the very multi dimensional women characters. Mary-Ellen Crystal Mist Glass Guffey, CO ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA - Igraine and Gwen In-Reply-To: <199807101228.OAA24595@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > On 8 Jul 98 Anne Hunter wrote: > > Does it seem to others that MZB intended to portray Gwynhwyfar as > > suffering from a panic disorder including agoraphobia? ... I'm not > > sure why MZB chose to show her this way. > > I wondered too. My impression was that Gwynhwyfar (by the way, how do you pronounce that? It spells worse than my last name) was meant as the weakest and most "feminine" female character of the book, who in the "men's world" turns out to be the only one who always got things her way. Think about it: she is basically responsible for Arthur's betrayal of Avalon, when she made him abandon Pendgaron's banner, do the penance, make Britain "an all-Christian country" and all that stuff. Just by whining and cajoling, she made more changes in government policies than Vivian, Morgaine, and the rest of the Avalon gang with all their intrigues combined. I think that her agarophobia was meant to indicate her general emotional disturbance and irrationality. Basically, she seems to be an example of the classic "neurotic dumb blonde". It's a very commonly used stereotype, even though I'm not sure why it was necessary in this book. To show that stupid women are the ones who create the most damage, more than the consciously evil ones? > > > On Igraine, whose characterization I otherwise enjoyed, I couldn't > > understand her reported conversion to Christianity when she married > > Uther, whom we were told was not strongly on the Christian side. It > > seemed that the Goddess religion had brought her happiness, but then > > she turned away from it. > > That left me completely baffled the first and the second time I came > to that point in the book. For me that switch is completely > unmotivated. From what happened to Igraine before I expected that > Igraine develops her abilities further. I think Igraine was very ambivalent about her Avalon connection. She seemed to deeply resent being sent away from Avalon and thrust into an unhappy marriage. She felt betrayed not just by her sister, but by the Avalon itself. She seem vulnerable to the Christian propaganda she got from her husband, she broke the rules of Avalon in order to save Uther's life in his battle with Gorlois, in doing that, she also betrayed her husband, which she did not feel comfortable with, etc., etc. All these things seemed to make her feel so much guilt and shame that renouncing Avalon was simply a way to forget about all that. "Getting saved" gave her the peace of mind she could not have with Avalon because of all she had to endure for its sake, mostly against her will. I do not think she really changed her beliefs. She simply decided to get them all out of her head and just be happy for once. At least that's what I think. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:59:29 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Reading Suggestions for a Young Male / McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janice E. Dawley wrote: > Re: Julieanne's recommendation of McCaffrey's work: it may seem > hypocritical for me to say this, as I read McCaffrey's Dragon books as a > teenager and credit them at least partially for making me a science fiction > fan... but I would not wholeheartedly advance these books as works that > will stimulate your son to think about feminist issues. I posted a message > about McCaffrey's Dragonrider series (as distinct from the Harper Hall > series) a few months ago with only some vague details about my discomfort > with their sexism. Since then I have retrieved my well worn copies from my > parents' house and have been able to track down some passages. I'm sorry Janice, I have to agree with you about the Dragon series - I specifically did NOT recommend the Dragon series, LOL! I recommended other books of hers:)) I also woudn't recommend them ( the Dragon series) for overly young readers, and I agree about the treatment of sexuality - some of the scenes concerning dragon-mating etc, I suspect are 'over-the-top' for younger readers. Julieanne:)) > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:01:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 09/07/98 14:57:15 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed Jim Hollomon , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > Before he grows so old he's totally set in his ways, I'd like to introduce him > to some stories that will stimulate him to think about feminist issues, about > unreasonable expectations in our society, and the like. If anyone has some > good suggestions--stories that are both thought provoking and engaging enough > to hold a preteen's interest--please pass them on. "The True Game." I think it's by Sheri Tepper, but my brain is on holiday so I can't check. "Wizard of the Pigeons" by Megan Lindholm. Ray Bradbury's short stories. Collections like "The October Country" were a significant part of my education. The Discworld series. Reading Pratchett can (between repeated visits to the doctor to have one's ribs taped up) teach a lot about both how things are and how things ought to be. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Press any key to continue or any other key to quit. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: djbyrne@athenet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Catweasel's suggestion, The True Game. It *is* a Sheri Tepper book. My only concern about Tepper for a young teen: Tepper's books contain some sexual references that I'm not sure would necessarily be comfortable or understood by a 12 year old -- although I'm sure it depends on the 12 year old. For example, Gibbon's Decline and Fall has lesbian sex/love fantasies (nice ones) and a pretty blatant (and necessarily disgusting) dildo discussion; and Dora, in The Family Tree, spends considerable time thinking about losing her virginity. Actually, the sexuality in the Tepper books I've read is pretty mild, always relevant, often off- camera. I don't worry about my 14 year old reading Tepper, and I think my "totally cool" but sometimes homophobic 12 year old boy could handle it, and even benefit by it. After all, he reads J.D. Salinger! But I think the maturity of the 12 year old is relevant when it comes to reading Tepper. Candice ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:28:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Reading Suggestions for a Young Male / McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980710195714.00702cd4@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I recommend just about anything by Jane Yolen. She has a large body of work written for young adult readers. Many of her protagonists are females who have obstacles to overcome or serious problems to solve using their own talents and ingenuity. Her stories are complex and interesting enough that even a grown up can enjoy her YA novels (which can't be said for a lot of stuff written for teens/preteens). Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:40:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions In-Reply-To: <35A737EA1EA.9DCDCATWEASEL@outmail1.cableinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:01 AM 7/11/98 +0100, you wrote: I just finished reading the entire True Game series (and can't imagine it as individual books!). I've heard folks refer to Mavin Manyshaped here and other places a fair bit, and was quite surprised to find that she is a really minor player in the books. And that the protaganist is a boy. This would probably make it great reading for a young boy -- he won't be alienated by lead female characters, can identify with Peter's feelings of power adn helplessness, and Peter can only make it with the help of several very powerful women, as well as a couple of powerful men. That recommendation aside, I would love to talk about True Game if folks have read it. It is definitely Tepper, in that i couldn't put the dang thing down, even in the beginning when it felt like another language! The feminism is pretty nascent however, but it is her first book (according to the cover). I get the impression that there may be some hidden message in the powers of the Gamespeople, and the last book deals with environmental issues which appear over and over in her later works.... But basically it seems pretty fluffy, a good read. I feel like I'm missing something. And I am *really* curious why/how Mavin made such an impression on folks! > >"The True Game." I think it's by Sheri Tepper, but my brain is on >holiday so I can't check. > >"Wizard of the Pigeons" by Megan Lindholm. > >Ray Bradbury's short stories. Collections like "The October Country" >were a significant part of my education. > >The Discworld series. Reading Pratchett can (between repeated visits to >the doctor to have one's ribs taped up) teach a lot about both how >things are and how things ought to be. > > >Trust me, I'm a doctor. >Catweasel >http://www.catweasel.org > >Press any key to continue or any other key to quit. > > Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 02:06:46 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980711104004.006a12fc@mailbox.syr.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have read the following email and would love to say: Tepper's True Game series is excellent and am curious to know whether or not you have read the conclusion re: Jinian? I believe if you haven't read it that you will find your missing answers!! I would love to correspond with you in relation to THE TRUE GAME as I have the entire collection and would love to know know what other people thought of it. Blessed Be, Karen c/- Russwill@alphalink.com.au -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Rudy Leon Sent: Sunday, 12 July 1998 0:40 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions At 11:01 AM 7/11/98 +0100, you wrote: I just finished reading the entire True Game series (and can't imagine it as individual books!). I've heard folks refer to Mavin Manyshaped here and other places a fair bit, and was quite surprised to find that she is a really minor player in the books. And that the protaganist is a boy. This would probably make it great reading for a young boy -- he won't be alienated by lead female characters, can identify with Peter's feelings of power adn helplessness, and Peter can only make it with the help of several very powerful women, as well as a couple of powerful men. That recommendation aside, I would love to talk about True Game if folks have read it. It is definitely Tepper, in that i couldn't put the dang thing down, even in the beginning when it felt like another language! The feminism is pretty nascent however, but it is her first book (according to the cover). I get the impression that there may be some hidden message in the powers of the Gamespeople, and the last book deals with environmental issues which appear over and over in her later works.... But basically it seems pretty fluffy, a good read. I feel like I'm missing something. And I am *really* curious why/how Mavin made such an impression on folks! > >"The True Game." I think it's by Sheri Tepper, but my brain is on >holiday so I can't check. > >"Wizard of the Pigeons" by Megan Lindholm. > >Ray Bradbury's short stories. Collections like "The October Country" >were a significant part of my education. > >The Discworld series. Reading Pratchett can (between repeated visits to >the doctor to have one's ribs taped up) teach a lot about both how >things are and how things ought to be. > > >Trust me, I'm a doctor. >Catweasel >http://www.catweasel.org > >Press any key to continue or any other key to quit. > > Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:27:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: books for kids In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Jul 98 19:57:14 EDT." <3.0.1.32.19980710195714.00702cd4@together.net> I re-read the Harper Hall and Dragonflight (?) trilogies for the first time since high school this year, and I noticed the same thing in the Dragonflight series; I had to actually skip pages, it made me so uncomfortable. It's not only sex scenes, either -- F'lar is constantly reining Lessa in, holding her back from making mistakes; he treats her like a brilliant, headstrong, wayward child. It made me think of a conventional (stereotypical? I haven't read enough to know) romance novel: the strong, independant female character who finds happiness at last when she realizes the true joy of submitting to Her Man. A lot of McCaffrey's books are like that. I think the Harper Hall Trilogy is largely saved by the fact that the main characters are too young for that kind of stuff. I would certainly recommend the first two, Dragonsong and Dragonsinger. They feature a kick-ass girl (15?) who wants to do stuff, gets told she can't, and does it anyway to great acclaim. Straightforward. Good stuff. I might suggest reading the Earthsea Trilogy (LeGuin) aloud. I read it when I was ten, and my ten-year-old brother just devoured it, so certainly it can be done, but it's so rich it would benefit from a slower pacing and some discussion. If you can find Pamela Dean's _The Secret Country_, _The Hidden Land_, and _The Whim of the Dragon_, they are excellent. To simplify a great deal, they feature a set of cousins who make up a fantasy world and then are magically transported into it: who didn't wish for that as a ten-year-old? If I recall correctly, also, the children make up a world where the gender roles are pretty stereotypical, and are startled to find some of the positions filled by women. A good gotcha. And if you find two copies of _The Hidden Land_, I'll reimburse you for one plus shipping, I swear. (Owned it. USPS lost it. Found it on the used book seller collection site. Ordered it. Bookstore flooded. Still don't have it.) The True Game series is actually three trilogies, probably could be three long books. The third, as someone mentioned, is from Jinian's point of view; the second is from Mavin's, which is where she became a real character to me. The feminism comes out a lot more there. Not clear whether this would be a good book for a kid -- references to incest and rape. All right, this is definitely long enough now. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 02:36:06 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: books for kids In-Reply-To: <9807111627.AA29819@nsl-too.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again, In reply to what Jessie wrote: "The True Game series is actually three trilogies, probably could be three long books. The third, as someone mentioned, is from Jinian's point of view; the second is from Mavin's, which is where she became a real character to me. The feminism comes out a lot more there. Not clear whether this would be a good book for a kid-references to incest and rape." At the age of 12 I believe you might find it very hard to comprehend the sexual undertones although if the child in question has knowledge of these situations they may find it unwelcome in the books. I believe more in the fact that reading these books it can give you hope and strength for life (well it did for me) to see a world where there are different cultures living together sometimes in fear and other times in cooperation is wonderful. For example the immutables helped the True Gamesmen with the conquer of "evil" gamesmen by blocking their powers. Also the shadowpeople helping Peter and Mavin through their quests. In the Jinian Triligy I found that it gave me the most hope. I believe that somehow Tepper tapped into what our world is saying and that she is foretelling the future of our existence. My question is: Can we learn from our mistakes before our world is nearly dead to the point where we can't help it? Blessed Be, Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 02:56:50 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Arthurian Tales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again, For those that are interested in Merlin and another aspect of the celtic traditions I would suggest an Australian writer: Traci Harding. Her first novel was wonderfully written it encompassed Merlin and some of his history the title - The Ancient Future, The Dark Age. Publisher: Harpercollins. Some of her references include: Taliesin: Shamanism and the Bardic Mysteries in Britain and Ireland by John Matthews - The Aquarian Press, HarpercollinsPublishers, London And: Practical Celtic Magic by Murray Hope once again published by HarpercollinsPublishers. For those that would like to know more about the era or Merlin and the history I would strongly recommend these books. Blessed Be, Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:29:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: MOON AND THE SUN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" N Clowder commented on needing a while to adjust to Lucien as a dwarf. I had not problem, but suspect it may have to do with in some ways picturing him as Miles Vorkosigian in another role. :) Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:32:03 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: more on the MOON AND THE SUN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >As the romantic interest developed, I was uncomfortable because >Marie-Josephe so easily - so blithely? - responded to Lucien's character, >not to his physical appearance. Whereas, were I in her shoes, even though I >liked Lucien and found him the true bright light at the court of the Sun >King - I knew I would not be able to get past the issue of his height. Is >Marie-Josephe more "politically correct" than I am? Is she gullible? Does >her choice of Lucien represent some kind of failing? Should she reject the >only man remotely worthy of her because he's half her height? > While not meaning to detract from Marie-Josephe and her accomplishments in any way, I have a hard time seeing Lucien as "remotely worthy." Instead he is someone with a higher station than her, in the King's favor, accomplished in many ways, etc. In becoming involved with her, he is making some sacrafices, n'est-ce pas? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:34:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Comments: To: Candice Bradley In-Reply-To: <35A743AE.7AEFEC70@athenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > My only concern about Tepper for a young teen: Tepper's books contain some sexual > references that I'm not sure would necessarily be comfortable or understood by a 12 > year old -- although I'm sure it depends on the 12 year old. For example, Gibbon's > Decline and Fall has lesbian sex/love fantasies (nice ones) and a pretty blatant > (and necessarily disgusting) dildo discussion; and Dora, in The Family Tree, spends > considerable time thinking about losing her virginity. This is so funny! Don't mean to offend anyone, but the attitudes of many adults towards the teenagers' understanding of sexuality never stops amazing me. Let's put it this way: all teenagers are supposed to grow up eventually, right? When they do, they either know about sex or have a miserable life of ignorance, and the shame that comes with it. Next question is, _when_ are they supposed to learn about it, as soon as they turn 18? Kind of the way people sometimes drink themselves to death on their 21st birthday, because they never learned how to do it responsibly? Don't you think it's better when people learn to take sex as a part of life and know something about it long before they have a chance to experience it? This reminds me of something. I graduated from high school at 16 and got a job at a computer lab. I was the youngest employee there, with everyone else at 25 and older. You know what amazed me the most? Most of my co-workers had kids and spent considerable time discussing teenagers' "looseness" and "pre-occupation with sex". But that kind of talk I was used to. What shocked me was the adults' _own_ attitude towards sex. My God! 99% of the time they were talking, they were talking about sex: office affairs, their neighbors' sexual practices, their friends' sex lives, with many details and undying interest to the subject. And I realized that the reason adults forever obsessed about teenage sexuality was because they thought we saw it the way they did -- as something eternally dirty, disgusting, and fascinating at the same time. Which, to put it mild, was not true. I did not date anyone in high school or even later, till the age of 20. I had friends who did, though. We did talk about sex, about what we considered erotic, and yes, dirty jokes, including condoms and dildos. But the way we talked about it was more of curiosity mixed with the extension of the awaking sensuality. We had other things to talk about, believe it or not. Sex for us was either a part of love or a semi-dangerous way of entertainment, kind of like driving one's parents car without permission. But we never saw it as some omnipresent, attractive evil as adults apparently did. Honestly, most of the time at work I was extremely glad I did not get a job at the place my parents were working, there is no way I wanted to think that they were part of all that. The second thing that was often going through my mind while listening to my co-workers was "Jesus, and these are the people who bitch about their kids listening to rock music". Anyway, my point is that any kid who lives in this world is going to eventually find out about lesbians and dildos, if not from science fiction books, then from Playboy and their friends. And they do think (a lot!) about losing their virginity -- ask your own children if you don't believe me. They are not going to wait to learn about these things till they are 18 (which is good because then it's too late). Even though all adults have been children at some point, their ability to forget what it was like never stops surprising me. I remember that even when I was five, me and other kids were telling each other jokes involving four-letter words while socializing at the playground. We did not "understand" most of them (i.e. we did not feel about them the way adults did) but we did not see that as something that horrible, either. These things seemed to be more like using bathroom -- something very natural but not "nice" to talk about. I think what is damaging to children is not the information about sex, no matter how graphic and explicit (unless it presents sex as shameful or expoitive) but the negative attitude towards it that they learn from adults. Namely, the ones that freak out about it as if it were the end of the world. I do not really expect to convince anyone, because I know from experience that there is nothing more hopeless than trying to explain to adults that children are not what they desperately want to believe they are. Especially the adults who have children. I rememeber once talking to a guy who had forbiden his 18-year-old son to drive to the mountains with his girlfriend after the prom, "because the situation would encourage them to have sex". That was hilarious. I asked the guy if he really thought they had not had sex already. And whether he really thought that not going to the mountains prevented them from having sex on the prom night. And whether he, as a father, felt more comfortable and more in control of his parental duties by making them screw at the parking lot instead. Or in a bathroom of a convenience store. That must have been so much healthier and safer! The man was just staring at me with a blank look -- this thought never crossed his mind. He actually thought he had prevented them from "irresponsible behavior". I only stopped laughing because I felt sorry for his being so clueless. This is not really on topic, but since we touched the subject. It's kind of strange to explain this to liberal people but I just want to remind everyone that children learn about this things one way or another. And if you think that things you read yourself are not appropriate to them, they will simply turn to the sources that you would like a lot less if you ever knew. I know that realization of one's chidren having to grow up saddens most of people. But the only alternative to that would be them forever staying on the level of three-year-olds, which is possible only with mental retardation. Sex and knowledge about it are part of being an adult. No one can learn it in a crash course after turning 18. So there is nothing wrong with it being accessible to children. Unless you teach them it's something bad and dirty by your negative reaction. Just my opinion. Marina, who is five years from being a teenager and have not forgotten it yet. http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:54:06 -0700 Reply-To: Kieth Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: Moon & Sun - ugly man gets the girl In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980710180501.008d9ff4@mail.utexas.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, N Clowder wrote: > It isn't until page 128 that we learn that he is a dwarf: > snip < > > My point is, I wish to question an assumption which I suspect has insinuated > itself into the discussion, namely: > > dwarf = ugly > > snip again < > > Whereas, were I in her shoes, even though I > liked Lucien and found him the true bright light at the court of the Sun > King - I knew I would not be able to get past the issue of his height. Is > Marie-Josephe more "politically correct" than I am? We seemed to have got into a BDG of _Moon and Sun_ betimes. Brooding over this post, I realized there was another protagonist - the sea-woman. *She* is the fully realized physically ugly, but absolutely sympathetic character. (I'm sorry, but a portable guy with beautiful hands, a beautiful face, and intellegence behind those eyes qualifys as a worthy object in *my* book). McInytre's lead characters draw one into identifying with her, him or it and I found myself believing or hoping that I would react to the "sea-monster" with the same intuitive intelligence that Marie-Joseph did. The sea-woman was the real embodiment of values humans hold dear, in a form so physically alien to humans as to damn the values with the shape. Can it be that we, dear readers, have once again been led down the garden path? I *hate* it when authors do that. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: djbyrne@athenet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley Subject: Sex and Tepper and books for young 'teens Comments: To: Marina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh dear. Marina's response to my post about 12 year olds and the mild sex in Tepper's books was interesting, and it missed the point. Perhaps I didn't communicate well. I will rephrase. Some young 'teens may or may not be ready to read a book like Gibbon's Decline and Fall (or other Tepper books with mild sexual content). Some might be. My 12 year old, Mark, loved the dirty words in J.D. Salinger, but he's not all that comfortable with his sexuality, and he's not comfortable *yet* talking about homosexuality. I know this because we talk openly about sexuality and homosexuality in our household. My 14 year old, John, is often disturbed by Mark's homophobia and tells him off. John's sexual consciousness has always been higher than Mark's at the same age. Since my two boys are so different (and were so different at 12) it occurred to me to *note* for other parents that they may want to consider the individual maturity -- and by this I mean *comfortableness* and not *knowledge* -- of their own child when handing them a Tepper book. I was also thinking, after Marina's comment, about the racist content of Heart of Darkness and its effect on students of color. We use Heart of Darkness in our Freshman Studies series at Lawrence, which means every student reads it. I have lectured on Heart of Darkness and I think it's a really important and amazing book. But I do think we need to pay attention to the way Heart of Darkness makes us feel -- people of every ethnicity -- about ourselves and Others. Some have argued that Heart of Darkness is an inappropriate book for African American students -- it is painful to read. Even Achebe makes this point. He says when he read Conrad in Africa he had identified with Marlow on the boat, but when in got to college in England he realized that he was not on the boat with Marlow, but in the forest with the savages. In other words, the use of language in Heart of Darkness can be so painful that (100 years after publication) it obscures the underlying anti-colonial critique which is so important in Heart of Darkness. The responsible thing to do, as a teacher or lecturer, is to acknowledge *with sensitivity* the discomfort of both the white students and students of color, explain the historical context (yes, the racist language was already criticized in the 19th century), and take them the next step in understanding why -- and perhaps critiquing -- Conrad would use these words in the novel. Back to Tepper and sex and young 'teens: I think about how my son might "feel" when he reads a book. I know him well enough to be able to make that judgment. In a couple of years he might enjoy the book more. John, on the other hand -- I would have handed him the book without any reservations. In fact, John is going to read The Family Tree when my husband gets done with it. It's interesting to me that I would get so blasted online for this comment! I teach anthropology, and most of my courses have lots of gender and sex content (my area is demography, and I do lots of medical anthro and gender stuff). I've gotten myself a bit of a reputation for talking about sex in class, and a couple of weeks ago participated in a panel discussion for the gender students program at Lawrence about talking about sex, sexuality, and homosexuality in class. Even college students may have lots of discomfort when it comes to talking about sex and sexuality. I've done it so much in the context of my courses that I'm no longer uncomfortable -- but I try to remain sensitive to the possible discomfort of my students. I think it's the same for one's children. I have no illusions about what my kids might know about sex and sexuality, but I must remain sensitive to their comfort levels. By the way, I love the listing of these books for young 'teens. Somebody should bring it together for the website -- a page on the website, so others may access the list. Candice ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:30:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions In-Reply-To: <000001bdace5$e8333440$34b43ecb@russwill> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" karen, (and others), perhaps I didn't read *all* of the True Game books... There is a new edition with (the first) three books, the cover says: The True Game includes the complete trilogy: _Kings Blood Four_, _Necromancer Nine_, _Wizard's Eleven_. Which, by the way, may possibly be the worst titles I've ever heard if one isn't writing a D&D manual. The thought of whihc colored all my reading. Back to point, is there a fourth book? It does seem that Peter and Jinian will go off on a great adventure, and the powers of a wizard are never discussed.... And mavin plays a bigger role in the later books? Curious, Curious curious! At 02:06 AM 7/12/98 +1000, you wrote: >Hi all, > I have read the following email and would love to say: > Tepper's True Game series is excellent and am curious to know >whether or not you have read the conclusion re: Jinian? > I believe if you haven't read it that you will find your missing >answers!! I would love to correspond with you in relation to THE TRUE >GAME as I have the entire collection and would love to know know what >other people thought of it. > >Blessed Be, > >Karen c/- >Russwill@alphalink.com.au > > Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:05:22 -0700 Reply-To: Kieth Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: Moon & Sun - Clarification Comments: cc: releon@syr.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, all (and Rudy :>), Just wanted to clarify my earlier post - I was imitating (however poorly) that comedy schtick "I *hate* it when that happens" re: authors pulling clever and subconscious things on unsuspecting readers. The best ones do it all the time - look at Dostoevsky. We were all off (well, some of were, anyway) on a discussion of finding a less than physically perfect human being attractive, especially when male, and I thought "Well, here lurking in the foreground, is a far better example of a compellingly attractive being in an absolutely unattractive shape". Tho' not sexual - I suspect the BDG for this book will go down a lot of paths. For the record, I thought _Moon and Sun_ one of the best books I've read recently, certainly the most entertainng. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:07:59 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980711153034.006a8248@mailbox.syr.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Karen here again. The truth be told there are 9 books in all in the True Game Series: Mavin's Stories and Introduction to the lands of the True Game: The Search of Mavin Manyshaped The Song of Mavin Manyshaped The Flight of Mavin Manyshaped Peter's Stories and the introduction to Jinian in final books: Necromancer Nine King's Blood Four Wizard's Eleven Jinian's Stories and the completion of the Stories of the True Game: Jinian Star-Eye Dervish Daughter Jinian Footseer These aren't necessarily in order although the Mavin Stories are Part 1, Peter's Stories Part 2 (Collectively known as True Game Series) and Jinian's Stories Part 3. If interested I will put them in order within Series in a later e-mail!! For those who are impressed with Mavin read the first 3 books as they are entirely on her and introduces Peter (or the conception of Peter) (you find out who his Father is in later books!!) Anyone who is interested in chatting about this with me please e-mail me at russwill@alphalink.com.au. Blessed Be, Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Rudy Leon Sent: Sunday, 12 July 1998 5:31 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions karen, (and others), perhaps I didn't read *all* of the True Game books... There is a new edition with (the first) three books, the cover says: The True Game includes the complete trilogy: _Kings Blood Four_, _Necromancer Nine_, _Wizard's Eleven_. Which, by the way, may possibly be the worst titles I've ever heard if one isn't writing a D&D manual. The thought of whihc colored all my reading. Back to point, is there a fourth book? It does seem that Peter and Jinian will go off on a great adventure, and the powers of a wizard are never discussed.... And mavin plays a bigger role in the later books? Curious, Curious curious! At 02:06 AM 7/12/98 +1000, you wrote: >Hi all, > I have read the following email and would love to say: > Tepper's True Game series is excellent and am curious to know >whether or not you have read the conclusion re: Jinian? > I believe if you haven't read it that you will find your missing >answers!! I would love to correspond with you in relation to THE TRUE >GAME as I have the entire collection and would love to know know what >other people thought of it. > >Blessed Be, > >Karen c/- >Russwill@alphalink.com.au > > Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:23:33 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980711153034.006a8248@mailbox.syr.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Karen here again. The truth be told there are 9 books in all in the True Game Series: Mavin's Stories and Introduction to the lands of the True Game: The Search of Mavin Manyshaped The Song of Mavin Manyshaped The Flight of Mavin Manyshaped Peter's Stories and the introduction to Jinian in final books: Necromancer Nine King's Blood Four Wizard's Eleven Jinian's Stories and the completion of the Stories of the True Game: Jinian Star-Eye Dervish Daughter Jinian Footseer These aren't necessarily in order although the Mavin Stories are Part 1, Peter's Stories Part 2 (Collectively known as True Game Series) and Jinian's Stories Part 3. If interested I will put them in order within Series in a later e-mail!! For those who are impressed with Mavin read the first 3 books as they are entirely on her and introduces Peter (or the conception of Peter) (you find out who his Father is in later books!!) Also has anyone read the Marianne Trilogy? Somewhat similar to the Robin Williams movie: Jumanji? Anyone who is interested in chatting about the TG Mavin, Jinian, Peter or The Marianne Trilogy with me please e-mail me at russwill@alphalink.com.au. Blessed Be, Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Rudy Leon Sent: Sunday, 12 July 1998 5:31 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions karen, (and others), perhaps I didn't read *all* of the True Game books... There is a new edition with (the first) three books, the cover says: The True Game includes the complete trilogy: _Kings Blood Four_, _Necromancer Nine_, _Wizard's Eleven_. Which, by the way, may possibly be the worst titles I've ever heard if one isn't writing a D&D manual. The thought of whihc colored all my reading. Back to point, is there a fourth book? It does seem that Peter and Jinian will go off on a great adventure, and the powers of a wizard are never discussed.... And mavin plays a bigger role in the later books? Curious, Curious curious! At 02:06 AM 7/12/98 +1000, you wrote: >Hi all, > I have read the following email and would love to say: > Tepper's True Game series is excellent and am curious to know >whether or not you have read the conclusion re: Jinian? > I believe if you haven't read it that you will find your missing >answers!! I would love to correspond with you in relation to THE TRUE >GAME as I have the entire collection and would love to know know what >other people thought of it. > >Blessed Be, > >Karen c/- >Russwill@alphalink.com.au > > Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:29:54 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Sex and Tepper and books for young 'teens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Candice Bradley wrote: > Oh dear. Marina's response to my post about 12 year olds and the mild > sex in Tepper's > books was interesting, and it missed the point. Perhaps I didn't > communicate well. I > will rephrase. Well done, Candice:) Indeed, Marina sounds very much like my 22 yr old niece explaining to me how to raise my 16 and 14 yr old children:) Sexuality has always been a topic of open conversation around our family, open literature and open in our TV and film-watching. When my son was 15, he proudly announced the loss of his virginity, and was most disconcerted when I did not react with horror and shock, other than to say mildly - "well, Im not a virgin either, son" - I think he was actually more horrified by the thought of his mother having had sex, than anything else! My son is often the butt of family teasing, as girls of his peer group, demand safe sex and condoms, and he mourns that he may be 30 before he can try "sex for real". He laughs, that in literature - that they never discuss the hassle that teenage boys have with condoms for example:)) My daughter on the hand, is very uncomfortable with discussing/reading about sexuality, and dislikes the family openness. Both my children would fast-forward by remote control anything to do with sex in videos for example, for many years. Now my daughter just cries "boring!" when she reads of it, still grabs the remote control for videos, and flips through it to get to the more important bits of the story ASAP. The point being, as Candice says, different kids will mature at different ages/stages - and to Marina in particular - it has nothing to do with being 'conservative' about teenage sexuality in general - but knowing full well as a parent - that other parents may very well have different views with regards to their own children, how sexuality is treated within their families, how they censor or not within their families, reading material and film etc. Much as TV/film censorship warnings will often say something: " the following may offend some viewers as it contains, X, Y etc". I saw most of the posts on this thread, in the context of *public* channel so to speak, as the same thing. Providing warnings, or caveats 'just in case' some parents may not consider it appropriate for their children. And Marina, parents often do not forget their own teenage years, sometimes they remember oh, too well indeed! . They may react conservatively in over-protection, to try and protect their children from making the mistakes they did. I for example, sometimes react conservatively and very moralistically with drug issues, because I had experienced drug problems in my youth and saw friends die from heroin overdoses, and may react totally over-the-top at the thought of my children being in a similar "drug scene". Sometimes, its because we know our children very well, and an irresponsible, immature teenager who is not "ready" in our minds to act responsibly in certain situations. This may make us overly protective, or at least wary, or even -police-like- in our attention to preventing certain behaviours, like drinking, driving or travelling away from home with members of the opposite sex. For example, in Australia the highest suicide rate is amongst 18-25 year-old males. It is also the age/gender group for the highest death rate from accidents, both driving accidents and accidents from stupid, irresponsible behaviour such as "showing off" at the beach, or trying to impress their girl-friends with daredevil behaviour. It may be useless, or even encourage the behaviour we would wish prevented, but understandable nonetheless, for parents to attempt to prevent such behaviour. Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:40:43 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Tepper and sex / Mavin / books for 12 year old Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" With apologies for any redundancies, as I get the digest rather than individual messages. :) Candice Bradley commenting on sex in Tepper's works: > For example, Gibbon's >Decline and Fall has lesbian sex/love fantasies (nice ones) and a pretty >blatant >(and necessarily disgusting) dildo discussion; This is a very confusing word choice for me. Please elaborate? >and Dora, in The Family Tree, spends >considerable time thinking about losing her virginity. > >Actually, the sexuality in the Tepper books I've read is pretty mild, always >relevant, often off- camera. And VERY RELEVANT in the latest, SIX MOON DANCE! :) ~~~~~~~~~~ Rudy: There are three trilogies in the world of the TRUE GAME. Mavin Many Shaped is the protagonist of one, her son is the protagonist of a second, and Jinian Star-Eye, who is involved with both mother and son is the protagonist of the third. ~~~~~~~~~~ Phillip Pullman's GOLDEN COMPASS, etc. have strong kid protagonists of both sexes. Warning: This is one of those series which is meant to answer You might take a gander at THE 100 BEST BOOKS FOR GIRLS in the right age range for suggestions for 12 year old kids of either sex. ~~~~~~~~~~ Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:53:24 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Yvonne Rowse Subject: Re: books for kids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi One of my favourite children's authurs is Margaret Mahy. My children (8 & 6yrs) have loved her books of short stories. We haven't got onto the novels yet but those should come soon. For pre-teens I think perhaps the following: Clancy's Cabin The Pirate Uncle The Pirate's Mixed-up Voyage The Haunting (which won a Carnegie medal) The Underrunners Dangerous Spaces Aliens in the Family and for older readers: Memory The Tricksters The Catalogue of the Universe The Changeover (another Carnegie medal winner) Also, her short stories are wonderful. There is a strong fantasy theme is most of her books. I have read them over and over. In the UK 'Aliens in the Family' is printed by Point Fiction and has a ridiculously horror type cover but don't be put off, it's a good sfish book. There are more than these, these are just the ones I could locate immediately. There are probably more scattered throughout the house. Also, Philip Pullman write good books. We've just read 'The Firework Maker's Daughter' which may be too young for your son. He's also written 'Northern Lights' which you really should try. I get a lot of my kids books from a company called 'Letterbox Library' who specialise in selling non-sexist and multicultural books. This is a UK company but there's probably something like it in the US. Anyone in the UK who is interested, they are: Letterbox Library Unit 2D Leroy House 436 Essex Road London N1 3QP tel 0171 226 1633 fax 0171 226 1768 Yvonne To subscibe to the Taking Children Seriously list, send an e-mail to listserv@listserv.aol.com containing; SUBSCRIBE TCS-DIGEST your-first-name your-last-name. TCS information; http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~tcs/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:47:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Tepper's trilogies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rudy Leon wrote:"I just finished reading the entire True Game series (and can't imagine it as individual books!). I've heard folks refer to Mavin Manyshaped here and other places a fair bit, and was quite surprised....The feminism is pretty nascent however, but it is her first book (according to the cover). I get the impression that there may be some hidden message in the powers of the Gamespeople, and the last book deals with environmental issues which appear over and over in her later works.... " When you say the entire TRUE GAME series, how many books do you mean? The sneaky thing is that there is a Jinian series (three books), a Mavin Manyshaped series (three books) and then the Peter series (three books? more?)--all interlocking ones, written at different times. I agree with what you say about the books focusing on Peter, and they are her earlier books. But if you can find the MAVIN books, you'll understand why we love her so! And Jinian too. (And yes, it's hard to get into TTG universe with the first ones--much more is explained in The Other BOoks.) Robin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:50:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Sex and Tepper and books for young 'teens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/12/98 12:36:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: > Well done, Candice:) Indeed, Marina sounds very much like my 22 yr. old > niece explaining to me how to raise my 16 and 14 yr. old children:) > Without bothering to repeat all of the post, I have two comments. 1. Thanks to Jals for saying these things. After Marina's reaction to the cautionary note about Sherri Tepper's work having sexual references, I felt a bit beset. I touched the whole thing off when I asked for reading suggestions for a 12 year old boy who needs to learn about feminism. I'm 54. I'm in my second pass at parenting now, having graduated two kids from the family and now grappling with a twelve-year-old answer to the empty-nest syndrome. I remember my own teen years VIVIDLY. That's why I'm somewhat protective now, even though it grates against my libertarianism. You see, I still marvel that I survived my youth. Survive I did, but I made mistakes in my teens that are still costing me 35 years later, and that hurt innocent people (my kids) who hadn't even been born when I committed the "sin." That's a prespective that mid-twenties Marina probally has not yet acquired. I pray she never does. 2. I'm really glad Marina said what she did about young children being sexual beings, and our protectiveness often backfiring. She's right, too. Part of my troubled teens was due to my own parent's negative attitudes about sex and their reticence to confront such a "dirty" issue. I have good reason to believe that my life would have been much better had my parents been able to receive some of Marina's prescribed sexual liberalism. Thanks to you both. I believe the truth to lie somewhere in between you two positions. The divine comedy is in finding it. And publicly, thanks to all the wonderful people who contributed reading ideas for my son. Your input is appreciated. I love this list and the sundry viewpoints it exposes. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:12:25 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Hambly feminist?, was: attractiveness and gender stereotypes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980710202300.0072e664@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Finally, some people who read (and like) Barbara Hambly, as I do. On 10 Jul 98 Robin Reid wrote: > ... I was just thinking about one of my favorite writers Barbara > Hambly ... A common thread throughout her works is that > conventionally unattractive men and women fall in love under some > pretty stressful circumstances. ... > ... Hambly's universes tend to be pretty gritty and > violent *(I'm not sure everyone would look on her work as feminist, > but I do--if for nothing else than her female characters who are)* On 10 Jul 98 Janice E. Dawley wrote: > ... isn't it weird that Hambly's women consistently fall for > men who are QUITE a bit older than they are? I've read a number of > her books (Darwath, Windrose and Sun Wolf/Starhawk series as well as > *Stranger at the Wedding* and *Dragonsbane*) and after a while I > could just tell, "Well, the protagonist has met this guy, he's > eccentric and he's not conventionally attractive and he's 15 years > older than she is... they're going to be an item pretty soon." It > seemed downright strange. ... > I do remember being frustrated in the Windrose series when I wanted > Joanna and Caris to get together, but he was too young and good > looking. Nope, she was carrying a torch for crazy, bespectacled > Antryg who was more like twice her age. ... And Caris fell in love with the princess who is described as tall, strong and awkward, not beautiful. The people at Court describe her as ugly and ridicule her. Caris sees beauty where others don't. I agree with Janice that there are many examples in Hambly's work in which a younger woman falls in love with an older man. But they are not the only ones (e.g. the couple in _The Black Dragon_ (if that is the right title), or Kira and ??? (name) in the follow-up to the Windrose trilogy or the other couple in the Darwath books). After reading Hambly's novels I remember most how physical (non-) attractiveness of the heroines and heroes is described. How Caris notices the first crowfeets in the Joanna's face (she is around 30 and crowfeets show up in many faces at that age), how the later partner of Kira wears the wrong clothings and appears like a stuffed pig although he is not unattractive. That the princess is awkward at the Court but in another context just strong and capable and beautiful. How the dragon-slayer wears (round) glasses and gives a very homely impression. None of her protagonists are physically perfect (with the exception of Caris) but they are not ugly because of that, just _normal_ people. Another important characteristic of Hambly's heroines and heroes is that they are all misfits. Are Hambly's novels feminist? I suppose it depends on the standard you apply. IMO they are more feminist than e.g. the Pern novels or Bradley's novels because contrarily to those novels I have not yet found any hidden (or open) message that women should do that, men that or that men should dominate etc. or anything a feminist like me drives crazy. There are a lot of strong woman characters and a certain awareness of women issues (e.g. the problems for a woman to reconcile family and profession (see _Black Dragon_) or more generally how women are discriminated in a patriarchial world). However, Hambly's novels are not explicitly feminist in that they develop an utopian society or focus on criticism of a patriarchial one. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:04:06 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: Hambly feminist?, was: attractiveness and gender stereotypes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I consider Those Who Hunt the Night is definitely a model for feminist novels. The heroine not only complains about the treatment she recieves a s a female in a sexist society, she proves that she can do the things women ought to be allowed to do. While her husband worries about her when it is appropriate to do so, he also has a great deal of respect for her abilities. This is especially striking because he himself has been well trained in techniques for espionage and self-defense, while she has not. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:44:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Tepper's trilogies In-Reply-To: <199807122347.SAA12563@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks all, for bringing me up to date on the Jinian and Mavin books. I'm glad to find out they exist, because those two characters are pretty interesting, and I would have hated to never have a chance to get to know them further. Thanks! Off to the library to look for them.... Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:27:02 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/11/98 10:38:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, releon@SYR.EDU writes: > But basically it > seems pretty fluffy, a good read. I feel like I'm missing something. And > I am *really* curious why/how Mavin made such an impression on folks! Rudy, I'm sure you've been deluged with answers, but just in case, I'll respond since it was my request for pre-teen reading that touched off this discussion. The True Game series is actually three sets of trilogies. The one in the middle is most deeply concerned with Mavin. Try _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_. This is where Mavin comes to understand her true ability as a shape shifter. It is MOST DEFINITELY feminist, in that she realizes her talent in the face of unbearable pressure from elder male shapeshifters to never practice anything more than minor shifting because "shifting would damage a female's reproductive system." The men's threats turn out to be patent hogwash designed only to keep a ready supply of female flesh available for their abusive uses. Mavin turns out to be a shifter of incredible ability. It's a wonderful, uplifting story. She saves the known world from ecological disaster. As feminist as they get. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:27:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Comments: cc: catweasel@CATWEASEL.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/11/98 6:01:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catweasel@CATWEASEL.ORG writes: > "The True Game." I think it's by Sheri Tepper, but my brain is on > holiday so I can't check. Dear Ms. Weasel; Yes, it is Tepper. I already have _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_, one of the three books in the middle trilogy. Thanks for all the other great suggestions. I got so many fine ideas from the group that I feel obligated to compile a pre-teen booklist, and add capsule reviews and notations about how they're received by my son, Conrad. Hopefully, the FSFFU will have some place for such a document on a web site. If so, someone in charge should so advise, and I'll do up the list in HTML format. Best to all, and thanks to all for such a wonderful outpouring of reading ideas. Jim PS: Cat, what is CATWEASEL.ORG? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:48:03 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Heroines in Greek Myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit May be of interest: I came across this on the PUP site; the entire text is online, and searchable. This includes an appendix describing some 500 heroines. Gender and Immortality Heroines in Ancient Greek Myth and Cult by Deborah Lyons Published by Princeton University Press (1997) http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/books/lyons/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:55:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Tepper's trilogies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You'll probably draw blank at the library ( though very nice if you don't) since the books were mass market paperback, not with high quality paper or binding, but you may able to track copies through the dreadfully addictive www.bibliofind.com, which is a database of used books from various vendors. I do hope you find them: it took me ages to get the whole set, but that was pre-internet. And I envy you the prospect of reading them for the first time, though I've re-read the whole series several times...and in fact all her books richly repay re-reading. And while reading the whole series is definitely desirable, I think that "Jinian Footseer" does stand quite well alone. By the way: I feel that Mavin's explanation to her little brother concerning rape ("The other boys say that girls like it really") should be required reading: simple , eloquent, and well-targeted to its hearer. On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:44:50 -0400 Rudy Leon writes: >Thanks all, for bringing me up to date on the Jinian and Mavin books. >I'm >glad to find out they exist, because those two characters are pretty >interesting, and I would have hated to never have a chance to get to >know >them further. > >Thanks! Off to the library to look for them.... > > > >Rudy Leon >Ph.D. candidate >Department of Religion >Syracuse University >releon@syr.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 11 Jul 1998 to 12 Jul 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some excellent points have been made here that get to the heart of what I intended when I mentioned Lucien from Vonda's book and the Miles character from Lois's books. Vonda tackles stereotypes and predjudice in her book, looking at it from many angles: the brilliant, talented young woman in a culture that doesn't acknowledge brilliance and talent in women, particulary those without power; a short man with a strong sense of honor and human decency; the sea woman, a character treated as less-than-human, and several other characters who are also the Other within the court of the Sun King. The irony is that when the same characters who can't see Marie-Joseph, Lucien, and the sea woman as complete beings are the ones who lose in the end, without ever realizing what they have lost. Louis wanted the sea woman killed so he could discover her supposed secret that would give him immortality. In refusing to listen to Marie-Joseph, he and the others lost an invaluable portion of knowledge; the sea woman =did= have a secret that could prolong life. Her saliva contained penicillian, or a similar compound, the antibiotic she used to heal Marie-Joseph. Similarly, the king lost the loyalty and respect of Lucien, one of his most honorable men, through his treatment of Marie-Joseph and the sea "monster." And finally, the King's son, the frustrated scholar, had an ally he never knew about, the only scientist who appreciated his apptitude when no one else would even acknowledge it. He squandered the respect and support he might have earned had he taken the time to give her the same, instead of throwing it away by making a lot of foolish assumptions about her. I thank the posters for sharing their thoughtful insights. It would have meant a great deal to Vonda to know that people did after all appreciate the subtleties she was trying to evoke. Unfortunately, she probably won't ever know; she was so discouraged by the listserv that she left it last week. Best regards Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:21:45 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: True Game Comments: To: Daniel Byrne In-Reply-To: <35A8BD8C.E4DD52F5@athenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Candice, Yes unfortunately you only got the middle three books!! It took my 8 years to get all 9 books so good luck with getting a complete set!! If you want to know about a particular character read that trilogy as although there are 9 books if you don't mind missing bits and pieces you can read 3 separately without losing the complete picture!! If you would like to discuss this further please e-mail me!! Blessed Be!!!! Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.co.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:51:35 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: Tepper's trilogies In-Reply-To: <19980713.145522.-399729.1.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frances, It took me 8 years to complete the series!!! And I didn't use the "net", simple foot work during school holidays worked. I think Jinian in Dervish Daughter was the closest I ever came to understanding myself and who I am and where I'm going and to be able to understand Tepper wholly, and completely for the first time I believe was astronomically important!! Happy Reading. Blessed Be!!! Karen, c/- russwi@alphalink.com.au. -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Frances Green Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 1998 4:55 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tepper's trilogies You'll probably draw blank at the library ( though very nice if you don't) since the books were mass market paperback, not with high quality paper or binding, but you may able to track copies through the dreadfully addictive www.bibliofind.com, which is a database of used books from various vendors. I do hope you find them: it took me ages to get the whole set, but that was pre-internet. And I envy you the prospect of reading them for the first time, though I've re-read the whole series several times...and in fact all her books richly repay re-reading. And while reading the whole series is definitely desirable, I think that "Jinian Footseer" does stand quite well alone. By the way: I feel that Mavin's explanation to her little brother concerning rape ("The other boys say that girls like it really") should be required reading: simple , eloquent, and well-targeted to its hearer. On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:44:50 -0400 Rudy Leon writes: >Thanks all, for bringing me up to date on the Jinian and Mavin books. >I'm >glad to find out they exist, because those two characters are pretty >interesting, and I would have hated to never have a chance to get to >know >them further. > >Thanks! Off to the library to look for them.... > > > >Rudy Leon >Ph.D. candidate >Department of Religion >Syracuse University >releon@syr.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:51:38 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions In-Reply-To: <8983adde.35aa3557@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim, In a messege you wrote: "The True Game series is actually three sets of trilogies. The one in the middle is most deeply concerned with Mavin. Try _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_. This is where Mavin comes to understand her true ability as a shape shifter. It is MOST DEFINITELY feminist, in that she realizes her talent in the face of unbearable pressure from elder male shapeshifters to never practice anything more than minor shifting because "shifting would damage a female's reproductive system." The men's threats turn out to be patent hogwash designed only to keep a ready supply of female flesh available for their abusive uses. Mavin turns out to be a shifter of incredible ability. It's a wonderful, uplifting story. She saves the known world from ecological disaster. As feminist as they get. Jim" The Mavin series was the first to be written and _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_ was the very first book ever written in regards to the set. _The True Game_ actually only relates to Peter's Story and Jinian in the Final book saves the world from destruction with help of course from: Peter, Mavin, Winterslow & Himaggery. But it's Jinian's life and her soul journey to save the world. Mavin started it, Peter helped it and Jinian finished it. Here I have put the books in order: _The song of Mavin Manyshaped_ _The flight of Mavin Manyshaped_ _The Serach of Mavin Manyshaped_ _King's blood four_ _Necromancer Nine_ _Wizard's Eleven_ _Jinian Star-eye_ _Dervish Daughter_ _Jinian Footseer_ Only Peter's Trilogy is called _The True Game_ but I can't remember exactly which order Jinian's in but it's close!!! Happy Reading, Blessed Be, Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au. -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Hollomon Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 1998 2:27 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tepper, was Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions In a message dated 7/11/98 10:38:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, releon@SYR.EDU writes: > But basically it > seems pretty fluffy, a good read. I feel like I'm missing something. And > I am *really* curious why/how Mavin made such an impression on folks! Rudy, I'm sure you've been deluged with answers, but just in case, I'll respond since it was my request for pre-teen reading that touched off this discussion. The True Game series is actually three sets of trilogies. The one in the middle is most deeply concerned with Mavin. Try _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_. This is where Mavin comes to understand her true ability as a shape shifter. It is MOST DEFINITELY feminist, in that she realizes her talent in the face of unbearable pressure from elder male shapeshifters to never practice anything more than minor shifting because "shifting would damage a female's reproductive system." The men's threats turn out to be patent hogwash designed only to keep a ready supply of female flesh available for their abusive uses. Mavin turns out to be a shifter of incredible ability. It's a wonderful, uplifting story. She saves the known world from ecological disaster. As feminist as they get. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:10:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Unfortunately, along with almost everything else published, sf goes out of print almost as fast as newspapers. I suggest finding the sf bookstore in your area (if you're fortunate enough to have one!) and start a relationship. Used books are the way to go, not only because they're so much cheaper, but because of the wider selection (over time). If you know any active fans, you might consider finding out chich cons (science fiction conventions) in your area have good hucksters' rooms. (There tends to be a lot more video, "collectables", games, and whatnot than books in recent years.) good luck to all! Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:07:42 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 13/07/98 17:27:04 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed Jim Hollomon , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > In a message dated 7/11/98 6:01:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > catweasel@CATWEASEL.ORG writes: > > > "The True Game." I think it's by Sheri Tepper, but my brain is on > > holiday so I can't check. > > Dear Ms. Weasel; Right, that's another one to add to the list. In the last few days I have been addressed as "Mr. Weasel," "Mrs. Weasel," "Miss Catweasel" and "Rev. Dr. Catweasel." At least that last had the advantage of being technically correct, if not the way I prefer to be addressed. My name is Catweasel, and I choose not to use with it any title which implies gender or other status. > Yes, it is Tepper. I already have _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_, one of the > three books in the middle trilogy. Thanks for all the other great suggestions. I am pleased with myself that I managed to get it right without my brain. It has a habit of taking unscheduled holidays. One book I forgot to mention was "Way Station" by Clifford D. Simak. I read it when I was twelve, and was amazed at how little I had forgotten when I ran across it a few years ago. It doesn't deal with sexuality, but it helped to teach me about love in a broader sense. > I got so many fine ideas from the group that I feel obligated to compile a > pre-teen booklist, and add capsule reviews and notations about how they're > received by my son, Conrad. Hopefully, the FSFFU will have some place for such > a document on a web site. If so, someone in charge should so advise, and I'll > do up the list in HTML format. A wonderful idea. If you have no luck finding a home for it elsewhere then I would be pleased, nay, honoured to host such a document. > PS: Cat, what is CATWEASEL.ORG? A good question, that. The company through which I occasionally work paid for the domain and a hosting service on condition that I maintain a small corner of it for business use as and when. I moved an old project in from another host, and started work on half a dozen new projects. I started a mailing list, Off Topic Today. What I am going to do with the rest of it I have no idea. Possibly host projects for other people if they take my fancy. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org I have my own approach to gardening. I live two floors up. When the weeds reach my windowsill it's time to move. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:32:43 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My Dear Just-Plain Catweasel; What a delight to correspond with an individual possessing such a pervasive, dry sense of humor. In a message dated 7/14/98 8:07:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catweasel@CATWEASEL.ORG writes: > It was 13/07/98 17:27:04 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful > occasions, I observed Jim Hollomon , hereinafter > referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > > > In a message dated 7/11/98 6:01:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > catweasel@CATWEASEL.ORG writes: > > > > > "The True Game." I think it's by Sheri Tepper, but my brain is on > > > holiday so I can't check. > > > > Dear Ms. Weasel; > > Right, that's another one to add to the list. In the last few days I > have been addressed as "Mr. Weasel," "Mrs. Weasel," "Miss Catweasel" and > "Rev. Dr. Catweasel." At least that last had the advantage of being > technically correct, if not the way I prefer to be addressed. My name > is Catweasel, and I choose not to use with it any title which implies > gender or other status. > > See corrected appellation above > > Yes, it is Tepper. I already have _The Song of Mavin Manyshaped_, one of > the > > three books in the middle trilogy. Thanks for all the other great > suggestions. > > I am pleased with myself that I managed to get it right without my > brain. It has a habit of taking unscheduled holidays. > > One book I forgot to mention was "Way Station" by Clifford D. Simak. I > read it when I was twelve, and was amazed at how little I had forgotten > when I ran across it a few years ago. It doesn't deal with sexuality, > but it helped to teach me about love in a broader sense. > Excellent. It is duly noted and added to the reading list. > > I got so many fine ideas from the group that I feel obligated to compile a > > pre-teen booklist, and add capsule reviews and notations about how they're > > received by my son, Conrad. Hopefully, the FSFFU will have some place for > such > > a document on a web site. If so, someone in charge should so advise, and I' > ll > > do up the list in HTML format. > > A wonderful idea. If you have no luck finding a home for it elsewhere > then I would be pleased, nay, honoured to host such a document. > That's great. I will proceed with plans to do the list in HTML with as much flair as my artistically challenged brain can add. Will keep ya posted. > > PS: Cat, what is CATWEASEL.ORG? > > A good question, that. The company through which I occasionally work > paid for the domain and a hosting service on condition that I maintain a > small corner of it for business use as and when. > > I moved an old project in from another host, and started work on half a > dozen new projects. I started a mailing list, Off Topic Today. What I > am going to do with the rest of it I have no idea. Possibly host > projects for other people if they take my fancy. > > > Trust me, I'm a doctor. > Catweasel > http://www.catweasel.org > > I have my own approach to gardening. I live two floors up. When the > weeds reach my windowsill it's time to move. > :-) You must be ever so popular with your neighbors. Jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:44:30 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: unfortunate trends at conventions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" NeilRest@tezcat.com commented: >If you know any active fans, you might consider finding out chich cons >(science fiction conventions) in your area have good hucksters' rooms. >(There tends to be a lot more video, "collectables", games, and whatnot >than books in recent years.) And interestingly, this seems to be SF convention particular. At least, as opposed to mystery conventions. EG. At Left Coast Crime in San Diego in Feb., there were about 22 dealer tables: one held non book/print items. At WesterCon in San Diego in July, out of 28 dealers, 5 dealt in books. Anyone know about Romance conventions? In any event, despite the fact the SF convention had double the number of attendees, we made significantly less sales over the same period of time. Although I confess it did give us some entertaining ideas about "What if..." We envisioned a mystery convention with everyone decked out as detectives and murderers, with booth after booth of stuffed sidekicks and detecting paraphanelia, and the like. Obviously these aren't hard and fast numbers, but they are typical of most of the cons of each type MG has attended in the various years. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:10:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: important! manners, archives & other stuff Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ok. a few notes from the list-mistress. 1 - re: reposting private conversations. it's bad netiquette to publicly repost private conversations. please remember that this is "etiquette" and not a law. other list members should feel free to remind violators of netiquette - off list, please! - when they have committed infractions. i don't want to spend my time tracking 'em down, or other people's time reading flame-fests on the subject. so keep the list ON TOPIC at all times. and try to be mannerly grown-up little list members. thank you. 2 - i've updated the archives. www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/listserv/ list sub & unsub instructions are also available here. 3 - i maintain a number of lists so when you send me comments about "the list" please be specific that you're talking about the feministsf list! 4 - keep up the good work in maintaining a good discussion, interesting comments, etc. 5 - i have actually got a couple of other lists almost set up so we can have one that's just books and one that's broader. i'll keep you posted as soon as i get around to finishing this set-up. sorry i'm such a delinquent list-mistress but alas i have a whole life outside of this list which all-too-frequently demands attention 6 - i accepted a post on the gay-lesbian-bi task force book awards committee (of the american library association) and thus cannot publish any reviews of these titles. however, i can read them and recommend them to the task force for an award. fiction and nonfiction, published 12/97 on. and pass them on to my various cohorts to have reviews printed in FEMINIST BOOKSTORE NEWS, the fem-sf web pages, this listserve, etc. so if you know of any relevant titles please send the citations (or books) to my mailing address at: laura quilter 2269 chestnut street #840 san francisco, ca 94123 7 - do send announcements of readings, real-time book discussion groups, etc., that are relevant to the list. i'd like this list to facilitate real-time interaction, not replace it. peace Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org ** No More Sig Files! ** No More Witty Slogans! Save Bandwidth! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:41:29 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: important! manners, archives & other stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit << 7 - do send announcements of readings, real-time book discussion groups, etc., that are relevant to the list. i'd like this list to facilitate real-time interaction, not replace it. >> I'll be reading from my new novel, THE BLUE PLACE (which is fantasy in one sense, at least ), in Seattle at the following times and places: Tuesday, July 28th, 7:30 pm Red & Black Books 432 15th Ave. E. 206/322-7323 Wednesday, August 12th, 7:00 pm University Books 4326 University Way NE. 206/634-3400 I'm also doing an AOL interview on Thurs., July 30th, from 6:00 pm PST in the Writer's Club Conference Room. If anyone from this list shows up at any of the above, please introduce yourself. Hope to see you there. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:14:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Neil Rest says: . Used books are the way to go, not > only because they're so much cheaper, but because of the wider selection > (over time). True enough. But as a used book dealer, I must urge fans to also buy *new* books by their favorite authors at least once in a while. If nobody bought new books, there wouldn't be a used book market, right? Also, it's the only way to support authors you like (authors don't make money from used books, obviously). -- David Christenson - LDQT79A@prodigy.com "Take what you can use and let the rest go by." - Ken Kesey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:44:12 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: unfortunate trends at conventions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We just got a report on an 1100 person con that dealt with literary as opposed to media science fiction. The person who handles the dealer room sells new books, and usually has at most 2 competitors. This time he had 3, including the GOH. He reported better sales than at other cons, but this was probably partly because there were almost no used book dealers. I can't imagine how anybody in a dealer's room that was all books could make any money. On the other hand, most of my favorite mystery authors are still writing-most of my favorite sf writers are dead. I read a lot more fantasy than I used to, and media tie-ins. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:40:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA, sexuality Now that I have a working mailserver, let me post a few more thoughts about Mists of Avalon. For the longest time I didn't understand the meaning of the great marriage to the land. It wasn't until the Nimue-Kevin story that it became clear. Sex is so powerful in the goddess based religion that it should always invoke a bond. Many of the priestesses didn't have a bond with the father of their children because their children were conceived in marriages to the land, so the bond was with the land. Had the lady's religion not been under such strong attack, Nimue's first sexual experience would have been the same as many girls her age at the Beltane celebrations. The male involved would have been of minor import, whether or not she conceived a child would have been of a little more import, but her spirituality would have been strengthened, and she would have shared in the community of her sisters who had had similar experiences. Instead, she was kept secreted just for the purpose of "tricking" Kevin. She was not prepared psychologically for the power of the experience. Had Morgaine or Raven thought about Nimue personally, they wouldn't have sent her to her duty so unprepared, but desperate times call for desperate measures. Not that this was right, but they were facing the end of their world. And 14 year old girls were of an acceptable marriageable, childbearing age. This was a different culture after all. Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon because it involved no bond with the land or even with the men she chose, no bond at all. It was a plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a plaything. I don't find that attitude oppressive, I find it liberating to know we each possess this power. The freedom to treat great spiritual truths lightly doesn't seem to me to be much of a freedom. Rather it robs the person of the potential for growth, and what else is life for? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:53:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA, personality problems I can see that some on this list have a lower regard for Mists than they had intended because they have had personal disagreements with MZB. From what has been posted she appears to have that Queen Bee thing going on, and that very unfortunate handicap of denying her feminism while she reaps the rewards of it. Alas, still a problem of some successful females. I think I'll just forgo looking into her biography. I very much like her book, it has obviously had a great deal of impact on many girl, women and even male readers, so her personal shortcomings don't interest me. How I used to love to listen to the sensitive emotional quality of Willie Nelson songs before I knew he physically abused women. How I loved Dickens before I read how he emotionally abused his wife. How I could be moved by a Frank Sinatra song before I knew he abused anyone he wanted. If MZB doesn't abuse her mate or her children I'm willing to let her other personal failings be her own problem. I even have a few personal failings of my own, but I try to be a contributing member of society anyway. I hope, in my role as labor and delivery nurse, I haven't caused anyone to have a horrible birth experience because I lust after James Spader in my heart. Joyce Jones ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:56:37 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: BDG: Mists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arthurian legend may be deeply entrenched in US culture, but I had no real knowledge of the story or the characters involved before I read MOA, and the book frankly left me a little overwhelmed. I really LIKED it, but since I had no framework to hang it on, I had trouble holding onto who was doing what. Just a couple months after I read it the first time, I couldn't remember how it ended, or even that Nimue was in the book. As I re-read, I remembered, and I've retained more of what happened this time, but I think I'd have to read it a couple more times to get some of the subtleties. This discussion is helping with that. Thanks! :) As an aside, I thought I'd read "the once and future king", just to have another perspective on the story. I haven't been able to get past the first 50 pages or so (and those were tortuous). Anybody have suggestions of books I might be able to stomach? I've looked for Mary Stewart at Powell's, and haven't found her - is that because I'm looking in the SF/F section? Would she be somewhere else? Thanks! -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah [mailto:jss@PA.DEC.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 10:49 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Mists I agree with what a lot of people have said about MoA being a tragedy; but what's interesting about this to me is that I didn't see it that way the first time I read it. I found it exciting and inspiring: all these women running around and doing stuff, right there in the middle of a legend I'd read or seen or heard about dozens of times. The Arthurian legends are so deeply entrenched in our culture (and here I mean the US, so I imagine it's even more so in Britain), and I was so into them at the time I first read this book, that it seemed like a whole second cast had just showed up on the stage of a play I knew very well. But this time, it was a cast of people like me. I loved that. Also the depiction of Avalon's religion fascinated me, and I think I just ignored the fact that every main character lost in the end. I don't even remember the last hundred and fifty pages; maybe I didn't read them. I'm curious as to whether people find it less depressing the first time they read it, or if it's just that I was too young (thirteen or so) to be paying a lot of attention. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:10:32 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've only read the Peter part of the True Game, and I don't remember any sex in them (though it has been a while since I read it, and if it's not important to the story, I don't tend to remember sex scenes). I don't think anybody's been recommending any of Tepper's other books for a 12-year-old (though, as you say, some kids that young would probably get a lot out of them). I appreciate your warning; I tend to not even remember that there was any sex in a book, unless it was central to the plot, so I might recommend things without warnings. This whole discussion of teens and sex reminds me of when I read "Clan of the Cave Bear" when I was in Jr. High. My mom told me she'd really prefer that I not read such "dirty" books. :) I remember wondering what she meant (I was already halfway through the book, and hadn't seen anything "dirty" yet), and I also remember that it made me more eager to read the rest of it. :) -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Candice Bradley [mailto:djbyrne@ATHENET.NET] Sent: Saturday, July 11, 1998 3:51 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male Re: Catweasel's suggestion, The True Game. It *is* a Sheri Tepper book. My only concern about Tepper for a young teen: Tepper's books contain some sexual references that I'm not sure would necessarily be comfortable or understood by a 12 year old -- although I'm sure it depends on the 12 year old. For example, Gibbon's Decline and Fall has lesbian sex/love fantasies (nice ones) and a pretty blatant (and necessarily disgusting) dildo discussion; and Dora, in The Family Tree, spends considerable time thinking about losing her virginity. Actually, the sexuality in the Tepper books I've read is pretty mild, always relevant, often off- camera. I don't worry about my 14 year old reading Tepper, and I think my "totally cool" but sometimes homophobic 12 year old boy could handle it, and even benefit by it. After all, he reads J.D. Salinger! But I think the maturity of the 12 year old is relevant when it comes to reading Tepper. Candice ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:41:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <001a01bdaf70$00967420$c0272299@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:40 PM 7/14/98 -0700, Joyce Jones wrote: >Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon because it involved no bond >with the land or even with the men she chose, no bond at all. It was a >plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a plaything. I don't find >that attitude oppressive, I find it liberating to know we each possess this >power. The freedom to treat great spiritual truths lightly doesn't seem to >me to be much of a freedom. Rather it robs the person of the potential for >growth, and what else is life for? This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon others? The Avalon take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian to me -- the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more than these two ways to live, thank Peep. * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to Faith and the Muse: Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:10:27 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ephraim mallery Subject: Re: Help: Need Reading Suggestions for a Young Male In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" before this thread winds all the way down, I have to throw in an excellent work that manages to pull me back into its world over and over. Lois Lowry's The Giver. A quick read that can change the way you think about life, in a world that continues to surprise you. Ephraim I have a mind like a marshmallow - unpredictable in the microwave.