Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9807C" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:02:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA sexuality >>>Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon because it involved no bond. It was a plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a plaything. --------------------- >>This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A >>lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? >>Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent >>meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an >>individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and >>no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon >>others? . There are more than these two ways to live, thank Peep. >>* Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT My point is that to the ladies of Avalon sexual activity, as many areas of life, did have an inherent meaning. Discipline was very important to them. They ate sparingly, they drank only of sacred water, Raven even gave up her voice in order to advance spiritually. You might think spiritual progression unimportant, but those on Avalon did not worship Peep. They worshipped a goddess who was made manifest in nature, and they used the things of nature to honor her. Since our sexual self could be called our most natural self, this is what they used in their worship. Unlike the Christians the woman's body was not owned by her husband, she shared it with whoever she chose, but she did not choose lightly. They seemed to have had no use for transient physical pleasure. They didn't "forbid" Morgause from her sexual pursuits. By choosing to follow a spiritually meaningless life she willingly withdrew from the power of the goddess honoring spirituality. Joyce Jones ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:38:36 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we're on the subject of suggested reading for a 12 year old boy, I thought I'd put in my own request. I have a 10 year old niece living in a small Texas town who has been entered in beauty pageants for many years (up until a year or two ago--guess grandma gave up when she always lost them). Being her slightly exotic (to her, anyway ;) foreign aunt (the one who really escaped--all the way to Europe) who corresponds with her and sends her the occassional package, I thought I might put my position to some good by giving her books to open her mind to a world beyond what she has thusfar experienced. Having grown up just a few miles from where she lives, my exposure to really different ideas through literature came a bit late (the libraries in the area were atrocious), and I would have appreciated access to books with a feminist point of view. What I got exposed to during my formative years consisted of the typical LITTLE WOMEN and JANE EYRE and all those books where the boys or men had the exciting adventures while women swooned and tried to please them. Knowing the school system she's in, I guess she'll be fed the same. What books could be given to this child to help counteract this suppressive environment? I've already found a copy of TATTERHOOD AND OTHER TALES (Ed. by Ethel Johnston Phelps) to send to her as well as digging out my old copy of SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL WIZARD (by Diane Duane) to pass along. Any book suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sharon Clark P.S. On the subject of children and sexual education... The school I attended growing up had no sex education program. The rate of unplanned teenage pregnancy was pretty high. Where I live now (The Netherlands), sexual education programs are part of every school curriculum and it starts, I believe, before or by age 12. My Dutch husband told me that when he had the classes in sex education (this would have been late 70's-early 80's), they taught everyone in the class how to properly put a condom on a banana (they might be using some sort of dildo-like object by now), and discussed issues of female and male masturbation and satisfying your partner as well as your self during sex. The teenage pregnancy rate in Holland is either the lowest or one of the lowest in the world. Could it be a coincidence? ========================================================================= NOTE! WordPerfect Attachment deleted from this text archive ... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:56:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_4B1FDF1D.C4A5CB69" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_4B1FDF1D.C4A5CB69 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sharon, this is a reading list we put together at Wiscon about 5 years ago for newfans ages 9 and up. I especially recommend for your niece Belden's MIND-CALL, Palmer's EMERGENCE, and ?'s THE GIRL WHO OWNED A CITY--all strong young females coping with disaster, as well as the better-known Edward Eager, Susan Cooper, and Robin McKinley . Hope it helps. Marsha Valance >>> Sharon Clark 07/15 4:38 am >>> Since we're on the subject of suggested reading for a 12 year old boy, I thought I'd put in my own request. I have a 10 year old niece living in a small Texas town who has been entered in beauty pageants for many years (up until a year or two ago--guess grandma gave up when she always lost them). Being her slightly exotic (to her, anyway ;) foreign aunt (the one who really escaped--all the way to Europe) who corresponds with her and sends her the occassional package, I thought I might put my position to some good by giving her books to open her mind to a world beyond what she has thusfar experienced. Having grown up just a few miles from where she lives, my exposure to really different ideas through literature came a bit late (the libraries in the area were atrocious), and I would have appreciated access to books with a feminist point of view. What I got exposed to during my formative years consisted of the typical LITTLE WOMEN and JANE EYRE and all those books where the boys or men had the exciting adventures while women swooned and tried to please them. Knowing the school system she's in, I guess she'll be fed the same. What books could be given to this child to help counteract this suppressive environment? I've already found a copy of TATTERHOOD AND OTHER TALES (Ed. by Ethel Johnston Phelps) to send to her as well as digging out my old copy of SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL WIZARD (by Diane Duane) to pass along. Any book suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sharon Clark P.S. On the subject of children and sexual education... The school I attended growing up had no sex education program. The rate of unplanned teenage pregnancy was pretty high. Where I live now (The Netherlands), sexual education programs are part of every school curriculum and it starts, I believe, before or by age 12. My Dutch husband told me that when he had the classes in sex education (this would have been late 70's-early 80's), they taught everyone in the class how to properly put a condom on a banana (they might be using some sort of dildo-like object by now), and discussed issues of female and male masturbation and satisfying your partner as well as your self during sex. The teenage pregnancy rate in Holland is either the lowest or one of the lowest in the world. Could it be a coincidence? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:19:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG: Mists Comments: To: Sandy Candioglos In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > As an aside, I thought I'd read "the once and future king", just to have > another perspective on the story. I haven't been able to get past the first > 50 pages or so (and those were tortuous). Anybody have suggestions of books > I might be able to stomach? I've looked for Mary Stewart at Powell's, and > haven't found her - is that because I'm looking in the SF/F section? Would > she be somewhere else? > Rosemary Sutcliff, THE SWORD AT SUNSET or anything else of hers set in that period (ask around - and some of them will be filed in the YA section). Parke Godwin, BELOVED EXILE (for Guinevere), FIRELORD (for Arthur) and THE LAST RAINBOW (if you can stand analogs to Native American history without tears of frustrated, helpless rage.). Phyllis Ann Karr, IDYLLS OF THE QUEEN. Murder mystery out of Mallory's Morte d'Arthur, with Sir Kay as the detective and Mordred (not yet a Bad Guy) as his sidekick; shows the decision Mordred made that led him to becomeing a Bad Guy.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:24:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980714194152.0068a9e8@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A > lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? > Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent > meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an > individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and > no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon > others? The Avalon take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian > to me -- the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more than > these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god > But it's Marion's universe and once in in, you play by Marion's rules. Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is post-Pill and still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for men, a jungle full of traps & pitfalls for women. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:36:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>They worshipped a goddess who was made manifest in nature, and they used the things of nature to honor her. This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. Debra Euler DAW Books ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:56:18 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 15 Jul 98 Debra Euler wrote: > This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any case. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:56:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Further to the Wiscon List, I'd add my highest recommendation to the Alanna series and the Immortals series (stand alone sequels to the Alanna books) by Tamora Pierce -- who appears on the Wiscon List as: "Pearce, Tamara (sic) ALANNA:THE FIRST ADVENTURE; IN THE HANDS OF THE GODDESS. Alanna disguises herself as her brother so she can win a place in the Prince's guard." Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:16:26 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl In-Reply-To: <35AC789C.1ED2D619@cas.et.tudelft.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Sharon Clark wrote: > Since we're on the subject of suggested reading for a 12 year old boy, I > thought I'd put in my own request. > > I have a 10 year old niece living in a small Texas town who has been > entered in beauty pageants for many years (up until a year or two > ago--guess grandma gave up when she always lost them). Being her > slightly exotic (to her, anyway ;) foreign aunt (the one who really > escaped--all the way to Europe) who corresponds with her and sends her > the occassional package, I thought I might put my position to some good > by giving her books to open her mind to a world beyond what she has > thusfar > experienced. > DO send her Elizabeth Moon's anthology PHASES. In it is a story about a small town in Texas, a girl who wants a horse, and being stuck in the horseback/pageant queen thing for (spoiler) number of years! See to it her family reads it too. Don't tell them it's science fiction, because it really isn't. Just a wee exaggeration. > formative years consisted of the typical LITTLE WOMEN and JANE EYRE and Little Women has been sweetened to death, but check out the rest of Alcott. She was a flag-waving feminist in many respects. Strictures against wearing corsets sounds trivial today, but it was the Victorian equivalent of going braless. And there are others. As for Jane Eyre, re-read it. Here's a woman who will not submit no matter what - and who refuses two marriages that might save her from poverty and struggle on the grounds that they'd be dishonest. Her "Reader, I married him" was at the end, when Rochester was blind and miserable and no hero, but pathetic.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:52:20 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That Wiscon list is for both genders, so it's a good place to start. Did you realize that a lot of fairy tales are in fact female centered? In the Oz books, rulers are women and non-human men, human males serving as helpers to the females. For classics, what about Daddy-Long-Legs or Anne of Green Gables? I agree about Alcott. I read an Old-Fashioned Girl at her Age, and Eight Cousins isn't bad either. Actually Alcott's feminism is not completely repressed in Little Women, where the lack of opportunity for women is frequently mentioned. She might enjoy Noel Streatfeild's Ballet Shoes. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:53:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Jul 00 15:56:18." <199807151356.PAA29688@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> >> This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a >> person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, >> Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a >> book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > >As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one >answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men >that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if >any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other >Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any >case. Certainly "Wiccan" applies both to men and to "layfolk" though most of the pagans I know hold to the idea that there are no layfolk (the role of "priest" or "priestess" rotates, or is traded off, or is decided based on who's tired and who's shy). "Pagan" is a pretty good bet for what today's goddess-worshipping practitioners call themselves, although literally the word covers a much wider spectrum. You might try looking in the alternative religion or spirituality (or, sometimes, women's studies) sections of your local bookstore for books on the topic. That can give you a wider range of names, as well as letting you know if you're writing something inaccurate (not that you can't, just that you should know). jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Richard Holmes Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) Hello, I've been lurking for a few weeks, reading the various insightful posts about "Mists of Avalon" and others - it is refreshing to see a lot of the diverse interpretations / attitudes here. I've always heard MoA held up as a great feminist novel which inspired many to go to Goddess worship / women's spirituality / Wicca / etc. I must say that when I read it for the first time a couple of years ago I too was appalled that the women on Avalon had so many of what I saw as patriarchal / hierarchical / power-over attitudes, and that the view of the universe was very fatalistic and inflexible. I did find the novel engaging, and very sad. It left me with many questions, as well. I was wondering what the significance of having Arthur fight the stag was - seemed like a male dominance ritual too much - "can he out-stag the stag?" kind of thing. Just wanted to make a comment on the following as well. Petra Mayerhofer writes: > > On 15 Jul 98 Debra Euler wrote: > > This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > > person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > > Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > > book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > > As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one > answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men > that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if > any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other > Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any > case. As far as I can tell, "Goddess-worshipper" is best; it is relatively short (as opposed to something like "ecclectic, neo-pagan, eco-feminist goddess-worshipper"). Today, many people will see "goddess-worshiper" as associated with feminist spirituality and /or Wicca (at least in USA and probably parts of Europe - other people in other countries may wish to correct me here); you can probably clarify any fine points in the rest of the novel. Since many cultures had goddesses but weren't necessarily feminist, much needs to be supported with context anyway before people know what you "really" mean by the term. This whole note has been slanted towards the assumption that you *do* mean a modern feminist goddess-worshipper type or someone similar - if not then perhaps a devotee to a particular Goddess might be called after that Goddess, or a made-up name based on the attribute of this Goddess. For instance, priestesses of certain Goddesses were sometimes named after the Goddess with the same name, or some attribute associated with the Goddess or Her mythology. As far as Bradley basing this on the Wicca cult, it does seem that it pulls in some of the mythology of Wicca, and blends it in with various older mythological themes. Not being Wiccan, though, I wouldn't be able to address the fine points. Thanks for the wonderful discussions thus far ... -Richard. @ \@/ Richard A. Holmes (rholmes@cs.stanford.edu) @ | @ \|/ "O dark expansive sea of night, @ | Tapestry of stars and solitude, @ , , | , , Crashing waves of chaos, Deep void of becoming, @ ' ' ' ' ' Radiant blackness, all-enfolding, @ Constant well of creation, @ Bestow you dark gifts and silver sparks @ On your parched and thirsty child. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:46:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: pot pourri Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nicola commented: >I'll be reading from my new novel, THE BLUE PLACE (which is fantasy in one >sense, at least ), in Seattle at the following times and places: And in what sense would that be? ::blink, blink!:: Sure wish I could attend! BTW, we got our signed copies in yesterday! ~~~~~~~ David Christenson - LDQT79A@prodigy.com commented: >True enough. But as a used book dealer, I must urge fans to also buy >*new* books by their favorite authors at least once in a while. If >nobody bought new books, there wouldn't be a used book market, right? >Also, it's the only way to support authors you like (authors don't make >money from used books, obviously). Gotta agree with Dave, but I *think* we discussed this topic at length a while back. Those with opinions might want to check the archives before treading the same ground? ~~~~~~~ Heather Law / Carol Mitchell commented: >We just got a report on an 1100 person con that dealt with literary as >opposed to media science fiction. The person who handles the dealer room >sells new books, and usually has at most 2 competitors. This time he had >3, including the GOH. He reported better sales than at other cons, but >this was probably partly because there were almost no used book dealers. >I can't imagine how anybody in a dealer's room that was all books could ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >make any money. On the other hand, most of my favorite mystery authors ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >are still writing-most of my favorite sf writers are dead. I read a lot >more fantasy than I used to, and media tie-ins. > But one can make money in a dealer's room which is nearly exclusively books, which is interesting. SF fans just seem to embrace other media and paraphanelia to a far greater extent. The dealer's room at the mystery convention included new book dealers from the U.S., U.K. and Canada; some used book dealers of the reading copy variety; and some of the "12 books on the table, sell just one and pay for the whole convention" variety. And everybody made money. Including the one person with pens which looked like syringes and mystery magnets, etc. ~~~~~~~ > I hope, >in my role as labor and delivery nurse, I haven't caused anyone to have a >horrible birth experience because I lust after James Spader in my heart. > >Joyce Jones Joyce: No plans to reproduce again, but if I were to, I'd love to have you help me and distract me with a mutual admiration of Mr. Spader during labor. :) ~~~~~~~ Candice Bradley [mailto:djbyrne@ATHENET.NET] > and a pretty >blatant >(and necessarily disgusting) dildo discussion Still curious about this, Candice. ~~~~~~~ Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT commented: >There are more than >these two ways to live, thank Peep. > >* Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god Janice: Didn't know Peep was a god. Please tell me worship involves graven images, not ::shudder:: communion. :) Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:30:09 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: BDG: Mists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could I add to Pat's list the 4 books by Jack Whyte, called collectively the Camulod Chronicles; THE SKYSTONE, THE SINGING SWORD, THE EAGLES' BROOD and THE SAXON SHORE. He has a Roman take on the Arthur legend and the women of Camulod are considered to have equal rights with the men, until the bishops' debate at St. Albans. I love reading variations on the Arthur legend and these are refreshingly different. Monica > Rosemary Sutcliff, THE SWORD AT SUNSET or anything else of hers >set in that period (ask around - and some of them will be filed in the YA >section). > Parke Godwin, BELOVED EXILE (for Guinevere), FIRELORD (for >Arthur) and THE LAST RAINBOW (if you can stand analogs to Native American >history without tears of frustrated, helpless rage.). > Phyllis Ann Karr, IDYLLS OF THE QUEEN. Murder mystery out of >Mallory's Morte d'Arthur, with Sir Kay as the detective and Mordred (not >yet a Bad Guy) as his sidekick; shows the decision Mordred made that led >him to becomeing a Bad Guy.> > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:45:58 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > But it's Marion's universe and once in in, you play by Marion's > rules. Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of > the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is post-Pill and > still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for men, a jungle full > of traps & pitfalls for women. > > > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A > > lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? > > Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent > > meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an > > individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and > > no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon > > others? The Avalon take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian > > to me -- the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more than > > these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god > I do not see a major difference, with seeing sexuality as being about "transient physical pleasure and nothing more", and sexuality being about "bonding" and/or "spirituality".The former implies that the importance of an individual's (or at most a 'pair') pleasures, desires, and 'rights' override that of the community's values, which is still a "spiritual" value system, just not in the traditional sense. Its spirituality honours the "individual" over all others....and is very characteristic of the "Me-first" generation. Its also encouraged by popular media and culture, especially in the western world - which commercialises sexuality as yet another consumer commodity, telling us all constantly that we will suffer enormous psychological or health problems, if our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. For example, look at the recent sales figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. While people are focussed on getting laid, or depressed about not getting laid, or whether their genitals are functioning 'normally' (whatever that is, the bench-marks and goalposts keep changing:), they aren't thinking about political activism, or rebellion, or even just bonding in a larger community with common interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as much as the women in Mists of Avalon expressed their sexuality in "homage" and "honour" to the Goddess of Nature and married the Land, instead of an individual man. MZB states that part of her research for MOA included conversations with modern-day pagans and Wiccans. One anecdote I have, in a similar fashion, was speaking to a lady Wiccan who told me that their view of sexuality was that it was the most "Sacred" expression of the "Life-Force" - because no matter how much sex is *divorced* from reproduction by technology, culture or personal practises - it remains powerfully symbolic as the ultimate creative act - the creation of 'Life' itself - as well as a powerful "celebration" of Life itself - in honour of its "potential" to create Life. Whether or not a child is created, or even if a child is consciously and actively prevented from being conceived, or even homosexual sexual behaviour ( amongst women interestingly, but not men) the Sex-Act itself still remains an expression and celebration of that *potential*. And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the others at Avalon. Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) Sexuality is incredibly important to the human race; regardless of how we might reproduce ourselves by artifical means, now, or in the future. Every religion, and ruling-class ideology, since the Year Dot has sought to control it somehow, including our own with its message of liberalism and commercialism and its "playful meaninglessness". Sexuality is at the "central core" of every human being's psyche, soul or personality. Children in particular, and adults of either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, with religion, and sex and TV". Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <35ACDCC5.753CE33D@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Julieanne wrote: > our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a > spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. I had a therapist who kept pushing that on me - a divorced woman well past 45. I tried. I really tried. The harder I tried the more my sex drive dried up. But I find I lead a full, rich life without one. Maybe I'm like the deaf person who can't appreciate Beethoven and Mozart; but there's plenty else out there to enjoy. For example, look at the recent sales > figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - > you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising > sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very > effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. But, boy, does it sell Viagra. And cigarettes. And cars. And perfume. This isn't about sex; it's about $$$$$. > interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who > think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of > transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" > who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as Yes. See Brave New World. > > And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the > Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - > perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being > anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry > immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or > manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to > die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. > In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" > or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your > own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime > were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, > shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. > Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and > scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could > "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. I agree. Of course, I'm Wiccan. But this may simply be an untrammeled female viewpoint. We're a female-centered religion and this speaks to my deepest gut instincts as a woman and as a mother. On the other hand, mystery writer Andrew Vacchs would also agree with you, and as far as I can tell, he - and his hero - don't have any religion to speak of. Though I love his characterization of the D.A., a social worker, et. al. as "warrior women". Using the law as their sword. > In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating > it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as > childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that > they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for > important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you > want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common > practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within > their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, > amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards > to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being > careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being > careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of > "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the > others at Avalon. In MZB's Darkover series the locals consider characters who are exclusively gay, especially those who favor young partners, as having never outgrown their adolescence. A grown-up, while keeping and loving his male partner, chooses an equal to love, and also does his duty by his lineage. (But then, Darkover is a medieval world.) > Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, > where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their > own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and > exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life > on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the > "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) > Children in particular, and adults of > either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of > psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a > person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or > chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. > religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. > Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our > culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our > beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the > words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, > with religion, and sex and TV". > But forbidding sex with harsh penalties also works towards the same end. See "1984"; also see Heinlein's "revolt in 2100." (and read it back to back with Margaret Atwood's THE HANDMAID'S TALE. Same culture, one at the beginning and the other at the end.)> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual > truth. A lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should > they have to? Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have > much of an inherent meaning -- the meaning is in what the > participants bring to it. If an individual's viewpoint is that sex > is about transient physical pleasure and no more, why not leave that > person be as long as they inflict no harm upon others? The Avalon > take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian to me -- > the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more > than these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god Pat Mathews wrote: > But it's Marion's universe and once in, you play by Marion's rules. As a reader I have the freedom to continually question whatever I am reading. As a reader, I take issue with MZB's rules. > Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of > the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is > post-Pill and still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for > men, a jungle full of traps & pitfalls for women. I see what you mean. I've heard tales of women in The Movement of the 1960s-70s being used by guys who told them they weren't liberated enough if they didn't believe in "free love." This type of pressure and exploitation qualifies as "inflicting harm" in my book. What I was trying to say is that the idea of sex as sacred bonding plays into the fetishistic tendencies already present in our society. I prefer a philosophy which views sexuality as just another part of everyday life that does not need to be fraught with ritual and emotional issues. This does not mean, as Joyce Jones remarked, that I find "spiritual progression" unimportant. It means that I think an obsession with sexuality and the abstractions of Nature & Culture helps no one in the long run. Instead of flipping the coin over and over (goddess or god, goddess or god?) I would prefer to abandon the currency. This partly explains why I didn't think highly of MoA or Elizabeth Hand's *Waking the Moon* and why I do enjoy some of Samuel Delany's work, Elizabeth A. Lynn's Tornor trilogy and Candas Jane Dorsey's *Black Wine*. In these books, sex CAN be exploitative and CAN be a transcendent spiritual experience, but it can also be just a pleasant way to pass the time in the context of lives that find spiritual meaning elsewhere. And if someone doesn't feel like having sex at all it's not a big deal. I like that. ------------------------- In a somewhat unrelated matter, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Didn't know Peep was a god. Please tell me worship involves graven > images, not ::shudder:: communion. :) *Laugh* If anyone ever actually tasted a Peep the religion would crumble! -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:55:34 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > >> This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > >> person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > >> Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > >> book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > > > >As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one > >answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men > >that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if > >any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other > >Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any > >case. > > I read so many different types of perceptions/views on this some years ago, when I was researching "goddess-symbolism" - and heard different terms, expressions etc so often, I would get frustrated and annoyed at the inconsistencies and differences in approach to the symbolism/rituals and theologies and even arguments about northern European paganism, versus Celtic paganism, versus Pelasgian (ancient Greek) paganism versus Minoan paganism versus 20th Century eco-feminism..sheesh! There were more 'factions', and 'branches' and 'sects' than the UN! Although regardless of the "Name" they call themselves or each other - the underlying symbolism of the Goddess, the Holy Trinity images etc remain fairly consistent. Later on, I changed my mind - well-defined ideologies, and theologies etc become 'rigid', or static, and I associate them with the boring sameness, and inflexibility, and resistance to change, that I see in patriarchal religions and other philosophies from capitalism to communism. I once read that feminist writers like Simone de Beavoir and later 60's and 70's feminists were often criticised for being eclectic .. this often puzzled me, what is inherently wrong, or unscholarly, or sinful, about being selective, taking pieces of philosophies which are appropriate and leaving the rest of it behind, and building something new from it? I finally figured that the enormous variety found in concepts and ideas of Goddess spirituality were indeed very appropriate to feminism, in that feminism is not 'rigid' , or 'fixed' and half-dead like patriarchal thought processes. It is constantly Moving, Spiralling, and Evolving. And thats the way it should be, like the old joke about women always *changing their minds*. These days I question the assumption which makes that a put-down or criticism of women, as to me, it infers 'Evolution' or 'Growth' of the mind, of the spirit, of Life itself. At least changing minds, isn't burying the mind in solid concrete to remain "root-bound" for centuries. So Jessie, I would recommend that you make a name up:)) As long as there is sufficient information in the context for readers to recognise who/what you are describing etc. What the heck - make up several! LOL Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: next book? and Tepper; and Speculative Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. Next book? What's the next book on the list after the MZB? I wasn't on this list when the books were discussed, and I'd like to be up to speed to discuss the next one. 2. Tepper: Gibbon's Decline and Fall, and Sasson's Princess. I have been finishing up Tepper's Gibbon's Decline and Fall. I am reading one Tepper book after another -- much like I did with Vonda McIntyre when I discovered her work, which I love, and later used Dreamsnake as the reading for the final week of my Medical Anthropology course a couple of years ago. Back to Gibbon's Decline and Fall. In the middle of reading this book, I got distracted by another book about Moslem women in Saudi Arabia, a trade paperback written by Jean P. Sasson called Princess. Sasson says she is telling the story of a real person, so it is written autobiographically from the words and diaries of a Saudi woman she calls Sultana. Being an anthropologist, I am not surprised by purdah and female circumcision, but I was very much surprised by the depths of the horrors experienced by Saudi women at the hands of Saudi men. Neither the author nor Sultana claim to be anti-Islam, but rather dislike the way Islam has been misinterpreted to harm women's lives. It was an interesting interlude to my reading of Tepper's book Gibbon's Decline and Fall. Tepper describes a world at the end of the 20th century which is much like the contemporary world of Saudi women. She has given me a vision of what it might be like here in the US were fundamentalism to become sufficiently powerful that women's lives here might be similarly restricted and fouled. 3. One more question: The origins of the term "speculative fiction"? I am not looking for a simple definition, but rather an historical one. Candice Bradley Appleton, WI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:00:12 +0200 Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature In-Reply-To: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah 's message of Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:53:02 -0700 > You might try looking in the alternative religion or spirituality > (or, sometimes, women's studies) sections of your local bookstore > for books on the topic. Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today" is a good place to start. See more info about it at Amazon.com. Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:04:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Being >careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being >careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and >of "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the >others at Avalon. I've seen this claim a couple of times but I'm not sure it stands up. I don't think Morgause was careless, irresponsible, or disrespectful of herself. She may have been disrespectful of other people's boundaries (I wouldn't say it's oppressive to say that you shouldn't try to seduce your hostess's husband without her approval), but she didn't think sex was unimportant, was nothing. She simply ignored everyone else's strictures about when it was appropriate to do it. Although I felt that Avalon's *stated* views towards sex were admirable (take it seriously, have a great time, respect your partners, don't use it for evil) it always seemed to me that many of Avalon's priestesses didn't really think the way I would expect people to think if those were their rules. Morgaine worries and fusses about sex as much as Gwenhwyfar -- and yet doesn't she say that Gwenhwyfar, who's in the same situation as Morgause except that Gwenhwyfar likes her husband more, should sleep with whoever she wants, because to refuse that is a sin against the Goddess? Unless I gravely misunderstand something, it just seems inconsistent to me. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:17:07 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: pagan nomenclature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit See also Francesca De Grandis' "Be A Goddess." Wicca is the modern practice of the "Old Religion." Ergo -- those who practice it, of whatever gender, are Wiiccans. In my experience the priests and priestesses do not "trade off" based on tiredness or anything else. Most Wiccans go through some sort of study and initiation (generally in steps) to attain the title of Priestess or Priest. It isn't just whoever happens to want to claim the title. "Pagan" more or less means primarily earth-based religions which are non- mainstream faiths. Most of the names I've heard for those who especially honor the Goddess have been somewhat cumbersome -- "Goddess-oriented" or "Goddess-based" being the least wordy. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:20:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thank you for the correction. >>> Anne Vespry 07/15 8:56 am >>> Further to the Wiscon List, I'd add my highest recommendation to the Alanna series and the Immortals series (stand alone sequels to the Alanna books) by Tamora Pierce -- who appears on the Wiscon List as: "Pearce, Tamara (sic) ALANNA:THE FIRST ADVENTURE; IN THE HANDS OF THE GODDESS. Alanna disguises herself as her brother so she can win a place in the Prince's guard." Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:11:27 CDT Reply-To: a-quick@carthage.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Quick Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Many posts have attributed Morguase's negative portrayal in Mists of Avalon as the result of her sexual behavior. This does not seem to be the central issue for me. Instead, could her negative portrayal be based on her insatiable, amoral pursuit of power? Each action she takes in the course of the story is a conscious effort to accumulate power. She uses her sexuality to bid for influence throughout the novel, starting with Gorlois and continuing through the young captain at the end (forget his name...). She shelters Morgaine and fosters Mordred because she thinks this will give her influence over two major contenders for the throne. She prevents Guinevere from conceiving/bearing a child (contender for the throne not under Morguase's control) by having a servant slip her drugs. She advances her own sons, especially Gawain, as the legal successors to the throne. She uses blood magic to advance her position. And in all these actions, she never asks "what is right?" or "is this wrong?", only "what will this get me?" She is hard, ruthless, unprincipled, and very nearly successful. One might rather admire her, if only she weren't so nasty. Incidentally, does this fit the idea of her wearing the fourth, hidden face of the Goddess - attributes of this face being wantonness, ruthlessness, violence, blood lust, and destruction? (Let me know if I'm way off the mark here.) BTW, thanks for the stimulating discussion and the wonderful reading suggestions. I'm off to petition the librarian... wait, I _am_ the librarian. :-] ------------- Original Text From: "Pat" , on 7/3/98 1:16 PM: On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Julieanne wrote: > our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a > spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. I had a therapist who kept pushing that on me - a divorced woman well past 45. I tried. I really tried. The harder I tried the more my sex drive dried up. But I find I lead a full, rich life without one. Maybe I'm like the deaf person who can't appreciate Beethoven and Mozart; but there's plenty else out there to enjoy. For example, look at the recent sales > figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - > you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising > sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very > effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. But, boy, does it sell Viagra. And cigarettes. And cars. And perfume. This isn't about sex; it's about $$$$$. > interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who > think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of > transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" > who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as Yes. See Brave New World. > > And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the > Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - > perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being > anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry > immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or > manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to > die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. > In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" > or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your > own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime > were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, > shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. > Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and > scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could > "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. I agree. Of course, I'm Wiccan. But this may simply be an untrammeled female viewpoint. We're a female-centered religion and this speaks to my deepest gut instincts as a woman and as a mother. On the other hand, mystery writer Andrew Vacchs would also agree with you, and as far as I can tell, he - and his hero - don't have any religion to speak of. Though I love his characterization of the D.A., a social worker, et. al. as "warrior women". Using the law as their sword. > In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating > it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as > childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that > they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for > important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you > want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common > practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within > their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, > amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards > to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being > careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being > careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of > "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the > others at Avalon. In MZB's Darkover series the locals consider characters who are exclusively gay, especially those who favor young partners, as having never outgrown their adolescence. A grown-up, while keeping and loving his male partner, chooses an equal to love, and also does his duty by his lineage. (But then, Darkover is a medieval world.) > Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, > where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their > own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and > exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life > on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the > "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) > Children in particular, and adults of > either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of > psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a > person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or > chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. > religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. > Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our > culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our > beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the > words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, > with religion, and sex and TV". > But forbidding sex with harsh penalties also works towards the same end. See "1984"; also see Heinlein's "revolt in 2100." (and read it back to back with Margaret Atwood's THE HANDMAID'S TALE. Same culture, one at the beginning and the other at the end.)> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: CFP: Science Fiction/Fantasy (9-10; PCA/ACA 3-31-4-3-99) Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu, owner-melus-l@listserver.TAMU-Commerce.edu, sfuf@csd.uwm.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY 1999 PCA/ACA Conference Call for Papers for the 1999 National Convention of the Popular Culture Association & American Culture Association March 31-April 3, 1999 San Diego, CA, at the Marriott Hotel The Science Fiction/Fantasy Area of the Popular Culture Association solicits papers, paper proposals, and panel proposals from scholars interested in any aspect of science fiction and fantasy. Any disciplinary method or approach is welcome! Proposals on film, television, and written works are solicited. Topics may include (but are not limited to): Any Author Earth: Final Conflict Propaganda in SF/F Any SF/F Film Ethnicity Psychoanalysis and SF/F Any SF/F TV Show Feminism Roddenberry's Legacy Aesthetics Heinlein SF and Genre Questions Aliens Humor Spielberg's Influence Alternate Histories Invented Religions Star Gate: SG1S Angels in Modern Myth Lewis, C. S. Star Trek (TOS, TNG, DS9, and Television Marxism in SF/F VOY) Apocalyptic Concerns Medievalism and SF/F Urban Fantasy Architecture Millenium Syndication vs. Network SF/F Arthurian Legend Multiculturalism Teaching SF/F Babylon 5 New Heroes & Heroines in SF/F Utopias/Dystopias Cable TV and SF/F Old Masters/New Writers of SF/F Xena:WP and Hercules:TLJ Chaos Theory in SF/F Philosophy and SF/F Children's Fantasy Postcolonial SF/F Class and Social Constructs Comic Books/Art in SF/F Computer Games & Role Playing PAPER PROPOSAL: For a paper proposal, send a 250-word abstract OR a finished paper (MAXIMUM 20 minutes reading time) with a 50-word abstract. Please include a separate cover sheet with your name, mailing address, phone number, and the presentation title. PANEL PROPOSAL: For a panel proposal, send four 250-word abstracts OR finished papers with 50-word abstracts and a panel name. Please include a separate cover sheet with the name, mailing address, and phone number of each panel member, the panel title, and an indication of the panel chair (who may be one of the presenters). PLEASE NOTE: Participation in one Area of the Popular Culture or American Culture associations precludes participation in any of the other areas at the same conference. MAIL SUBMISSIONS TO: Barbara Silliman P. O. Box 19722 Johnston, RI 02919-0722 E-mail: PLEASE FOLLOW UP E-MAIL SUBMISSIONS WITH HARD COPY A.S.A.P. DEADLINE FOR ALL SUBMISSIONS: SEPTEMBER 10, 1998 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:52:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Sex and Tepper and books for young 'teens Comments: To: Candice Bradley In-Reply-To: <35A7AF5F.E488B8A4@athenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I said that I did not expect to convince anyone :). On the topic of parents trying to protect children -- that is natural, and I am by no means against it. After all, that's what parents are for. My point was that prohibitive measures did not help as much as harmed. Let me explain. Example: drinking age. Alcohol is a dangerous substance and requires responsibility in consuming. The problem is, responsibility does not come automatically with age, just because one turns 21. The same as one cannot learn how to drive a car simply by turning 16, they have to be taught to do it. Keeping "underage" people completely away from alcohol, if successfull, only leaves them completely unprepared to drink responsibly once they turn 21 (or once they get unrestricted access to it, e.g. at a college fraternity party). As a result, people drink themselves to death. The biggest mystery to me is why anyone expects anything else. After all, if a child is kept away from cars till they turn 16 and then handed car keys, it would be surprising if they _did not_ get killed. In other words, if you don't want your children drive into the first tree from your driveway, teach them how to drive before giving them the car. If you don't want them to die from alcohol poisoning on their 21st birthday, make sure that they learn their limits at home -- one glass of wine at a family dinner has not killed anyone, while it does eliminate the whole "forbidden fruit" issue. Finally, if I don't want my children to be ignorant about sex, I'd have to provide them with positive information about it since early age, before they had learned about it from somewhere else. Of course, in order to do that, one is not expected to hand their children an issue of Penthouse or something else that portrays sex as dirty and exploitive. What I found funny, was the fact that a _feminist_ science fiction book, one of those well liked by the members of the list, was considered as dangerous as some triple-X magazine -- because it mentions dildos and lesbian sex. The question is: is it better when teens learn about dildos from drawings on the desks in high school/grade school? And they will, I can assure you of that. I agree that people mature at different age. Some of 12-years-olds may not like sexual stuff in a book. Some of 42-year-old may not like it. In which case, they would not read it, children and adults the same. If you worry that you child would read something they consider being a bunch of crap -- you are right, they will. But only if you lock it away in the cupboard and tell them not to, ever. They'll have to, even if they hate it, just to find out what was all that fuss about. I understand your irony about 20-year-olds telling you how to raise your teenage children. However, it might be that we simply still remember what was working for us at that age, and what was causing results exactly opposite to the ones our parents had intended. That's why, us twentysomethings being the nice people we are , we sometimes try to prevent our friends from repeating the mistakes our parents used to make while raising us. While our friends sometimes seem to be more concerned to correct their own mistakes of the youth -- indirectly -- through the lives of their children, by preventing them from taking the same path. Which almost never works. I don't blame those who want to protect their children. It's just prohibition of any kind hardly ever does that. Everyone has to make their own mistakes in order to learn. And trying to prevent them from that will only convince them that those things are not mistakes at all. The only thing one can do is to give their children as much information about dangerous things as possible, and be there for them if they still do it and get hurt. Because all your mistakes, no matter how bad, were what made you you. Your children deserve at least a chance to find their own way. Besides, most teenagers are not the self-distructive idiots they are often portrayed to be. And when they trust you, they might even ask you for an advice. Which is not going to happen if you act like a cop. I know that it's hard to be rational when it concerns one's own children. It must be the same as people losing their brains when falling in love. But it's worth the effort, I think, if being rational can actually help create understanding between generations. To those who get upset about me writing this -- don't be. You still are going to do with your kids whatever you think is right, and I know it. Just think about this sometimes when you wonder why they are giving you so much headache. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <001a01bdaf70$00967420$c0272299@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I still think that Nimue/Kevin story was extremely disgusting. The whole concept of raising the girl in isolation just to sacrifice her body, and in the end, her life for a political game seems to me pretty unjustified, to put it mild. "Punishing" Kevin did not carry any practical meaning in saving Avalon or make any difference in the political situation. It was a simple, primitive, KGB-style political revenge against a "dissident". Using a body of a 14-year-old girl for that was IMHO sexual exploitation. It seems to me that Avalon priestesses were caught in what is called the self-perpetuating circle of abuse. First, Vivian almost destroyed Morgaine by making her screw her brother. Then Morgaine destroyed Nimue, also "for the sake of a high cause". And each of them is being very self-righteous about it: "I went through it, so you have to as well. That's life, baby" or something pretty damn close. Just like those families where parents rape their children who then grow up and rape their own children, and so on, perpetually... Why is it that female sexuality always have to "serve" some "high purpose"? How is standing in for "the land" (an object) in the inauguration ceremony of a king is better than being married to a stranger as a free supplement to your father's horses? In Kevin's cause, it was not even a "marriage to the land", he was not a king, but a traitor. He would probably die by himself couple years later, or get burned at a stake by his new buddies-the priests. What was the point of sacrificing the girl? Especially considering the fact that she was the only one who could take over after Morgaine. They talked so much that there was almost no one left to take over as the next High Priestess, and they simply threw away their only hope. The main point of Christianity was also that "sex is not a plaything". Avalon's position on it does not seem any better. Having sex only for procreation, or only "to please the Goddess", either way is only a "sacred duty" that women must surrender to, whether they like it or not. Why is it that male sexuality is never used as a form of spiritual currency? >The freedom to treat great spiritual truths lightly doesn't seem to > me to be much of a freedom. Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon > because it involved no bond with the land or even with the men she chose, > no bond at all. It was a plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a > plaything. I don't find that attitude oppressive, I find it liberating > to know we each possess this power. I think what robs a person of the potential for growth is when she kills herself at the age of 14 after being used as a hooker by her primary caretakers for the sake of their social intrigues. One cannot grow when she's dead. Honestly, Nimue's story alone made me feel that Avalon got what it deserved. Maybe it had been a great spiritual power at some point, but by the time described in Mists it seemed to degrade into a bunch of control freaks who did not want to relinquish their power over the country and would stop at nothing to keep it. IMHO. Marina P.S.I really liked The Mists of Avalon. It's a beautiful tragic story (at least most of the time). But if it was for real and accurately represented historical facts, I would be glad that Avalon lost its power. I think I would hate to live in a world ruled by psychics. It's bad enough when they advise to the spouses of presidents... http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:53:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Debra wrote; <> There are many goddesses and many people who worship them -presumably there are many names for the worshippers. As a radical lesbian eco-feminist witch - I call myself a Dianic Wiccan. For me that's a woman-only; Goddess worshipping form of spirituality that is not centered around a particular historical or mythological Goddess, rather the Goddess as manifested in every woman. Others who also call themselves either Dianic Wiccans (generally women only) or Wiccans (generally includes men) have different definitions. I'd suggest reading Z Budapest, Diane Stein, Jade and a host(ess?) of others. Petra wrote: As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. None of the wiccans I know can even loosely be accused of belonging to a cult. As best I can tell, one of the few spiritual tenets that most Wiccans of any type will agree to; is that each of us is ultimately and personally responsible for our own spirituality. Hardly an appropriate starting point for any cult. I agree with the woman that suggested (sorry, I lost your post somehow - you said it so much better) that the very uncodified and anarchic nature of Goddess spirituality with its emphasis on creation and evolution rather than hierarchy and form is its greatest strength. Certainly that's much of its attraction for me. While MZB may have done a great job of research and spoken to many Wiccans and pagans, her vision of Avalon is based on her view of the world. From my perspective - she doesn't "get" what a woman loving, Goddess centered spirituality is about. She may tell this story from a female point of view and may have included some feminist values. However, I'd like to remind us all that she not only disavows feminism, she has actively expressed hostility toward feminism and feminists. Any wonder that in her Avalon; the so-called Goddess spirituality is mysoginist and suspiciously patriarchal, as in Nimue's sacrifice, etc., etc.? Anyone care to speculate on what an intentionally feminist version of this story might be like? And Marina - Don't go knocking people who've had psychic experiences (presidential spousal advisors notwithstanding); you never know who might really be one - yourself included. Thank you all for the interesting and amusing discussion! Mary-Ellen Maynard Crystal Mist Glass Guffey, CO ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:51:27 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature In-Reply-To: <9807151453.AA20740@nsl-too.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Karen here again!!!!!! Trough out the ages we "Wiccans" have been called many things from various other cultures. I believe that first you should look at the period you wish to set the book in and then research that period in history. I don't feel will find an exact answer to your question but I would suggest you read Doreen Valient. She has helped me in my quest. I now call myself a Healer as I am connected to all life forces, "good" and "evil" and believe I hold a balance of sort between the two and am able to use Mother Nature, a Goddess and a God's qualities to heal myself and others around me. I know that this might seem egotistical but to use our natural forces to heal with the help from the old ways I think is better than tearing life apart. My short answer would be is to research through history until you find an answer you're comfortable with and instinctively "feel" it is the right choice. Blessed Be. Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au. -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Sent: Thursday, 16 July 1998 0:53 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] pagan nomenclature >> This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a >> person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, >> Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a >> book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > >As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one >answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men >that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if >any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other >Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any >case. Certainly "Wiccan" applies both to men and to "layfolk" though most of the pagans I know hold to the idea that there are no layfolk (the role of "priest" or "priestess" rotates, or is traded off, or is decided based on who's tired and who's shy). "Pagan" is a pretty good bet for what today's goddess-worshipping practitioners call themselves, although literally the word covers a much wider spectrum. You might try looking in the alternative religion or spirituality (or, sometimes, women's studies) sections of your local bookstore for books on the topic. That can give you a wider range of names, as well as letting you know if you're writing something inaccurate (not that you can't, just that you should know). jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Debra Euler wrote: (snip) > This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. Pagan is the generic word. Specific branches of Paganism are Wicca, Church of All Worlds, Asatru, Faerie and a whole bunch of others. You might want to read *Drawing Down the Moon* by Margot Adler to get a good overview of the history of modern Paganism. > Debra Euler > DAW Books Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:33:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA chocolate cake Jessie, I think it's like this. My sister makes something called Turtle Cake. Have you heard of it? It's chocolate cake with gobs of caramel filling and chocolate frosting on top. So good it could make you wet your pants. Here's Gwenhwyfar dying, or at least suffering, for a great big hunk of that Turtle cake, but saying "Oh, don't worry about me, I'm just fine here with my corn flakes." On the other hand there's Morgause. She's so busy gobbling up those stale doughnuts she's had lying around the castle for the past week that if you presented her with the Turtle cake she'd be so sated she wouldn't get the full flavor even if she ate half the cake. Morgaine is saying "For Goddess sake, Gwenhwyfar, eat the cake!" Joyce Jones > >Although I felt that Avalon's *stated* views towards sex were admirable (take >it seriously, have a great time, respect your partners, don't use it for evil) >it always seemed to me that many of Avalon's priestesses didn't really think >the way I would expect people to think if those were their rules. Morgaine >worries and fusses about sex as much as Gwenhwyfar -- and yet doesn't she say >that Gwenhwyfar, who's in the same situation as Morgause except that >Gwenhwyfar likes her husband more, should sleep with whoever she wants, >because to refuse that is a sin against the Goddess? Unless I gravely >misunderstand something, it just seems inconsistent to me. > >jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:30:35 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Sheri S. Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all! This is my first day and first post with this group. I'm so excited! I found this group by doing a search for Sheri S. Tepper. I just finished reading The Gate to Women's Country for about the twentieth time. I love the book, and the author for that matter. I have quite a few of her other books as well. I was looking forward to finding out more information on the WWW about Ms. Tepper and was disappointed to find only the one link to this group (through Yahoo, I'll try others today as well). I have two other series/books/authors that I would like to share and talk about: Maia by Richard Adams The Sheepfarmer's Daughter Trilogy by Elizabeth Moon I recommend both highly and would love to talk with anybody that has read them or would like to read them. Both books have very strong feminine leads and are a joy to read. That's all for now. Thanks for letting me join! Karina Otavis64@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:37:58 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: FYI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Patricia (Pat) Mathews mentioned Andrew Vachss, and I just wanted to post the correct spelling in case anyone wanted to look for his books. Anyone else think there seemed to be secret hidden messages in the page after page of MIME messages from Marsha? Kinda hypnotic as it scrolls by... Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:41:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Pat wrote: > As for Jane Eyre, re-read it. Here's a woman who will not submit > no matter what - and who refuses two marriages that might save her from > poverty and struggle on the grounds that they'd be dishonest. Her > "Reader, I married him" was at the end, when Rochester was blind and > miserable and no hero, but pathetic.> I had mixed feelings about Jane Eyre when I read it (age 13). On one side, she was an ugly girl (i.e. something I could relate to) who succeded and got the guy. On the other side, the whole second part of the book (after the guy's crazy first wife showed up at Jane's wedding, so Jane run off and lived on the street) was, IMHO, completely unnecessary and unbelievable. It was like -- of course, a poor ugly girl could not marry a rich cute guy and live happily thereafter. He had to loose everything he had and become a cripple so she could have him. I was dissappointed. But the first half was pretty good. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:49:45 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Reading suggestions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT To date the reading suggestions discussed have been for youngsters. I have a different problem: a reading list for someone whom I'm pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which WON'T put him off the genre. He's a man of 31 who (a) has only read a limited amount of SF/F and that generally of the "space opera"/"fantasy opera" variety AND (b) has little sympathy for/antipathy towards feminism or the women's movement in general. Obviously I have a pretty good idea of what general sf/f he should read, but it's the feminist sf/f that's the problem. I'd be grateful for two or three recommendations which you think summarize the position of feminist sf today. It's a difficult choice because the books must be enjoyable as well as "educational" and should contain _little_sex (that's to spare my feelings, not his). To give you an idea, I've started him off on Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's landing". AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:48:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: Reading suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/16/98 2:44:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: << I'd be grateful for two or three recommendations which you think summarize the position of feminist sf today. >> Sheri S. Tepper's "The Gate to Women's Country!" Can you tell I like the book?! It's got Warriors, strong women, mystery and a really great plot twist at the end. I would strongly recommend it to a woman or a man! Karina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Trends at cons/Book suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > And interestingly, this seems to be SF convention particular. At least, as > opposed to mystery conventions. EG. At Left Coast Crime in San Diego in > Feb., there were about 22 dealer tables: one held non book/print items. At > WesterCon in San Diego in July, out of 28 dealers, 5 dealt in books. > > Anyone know about Romance conventions? I've only been an invited guest at one romance convention, but at that one they went out of their way to sell books. They had one long table (actually, many tables put together) staffed by book sellers from the area, supported by posters made out of articles published in local newspapers about the authors scheduled to appear at the convention. Instead of a dealer's room, they set the table up in the lobby of the convention center. There was, as far as I could tell, no equivalent of gaming or nonliterary dealers. Romance seems to be an almost purely a literary genre. Every time someone walked to a panel, they passed the mega-dealer's table. In addition, several group signings were held in the convention room right next to the table, so fans could buy the books from the authors they had been listening too, then come up to talk to us. As a result, I seemed to sell a lot more books at that convention that at a typical sf con, despite it being an audience less likely to be interested in my books than science fiction and fantasy readers. ---- As I was writing the above, and reading the many excellent book suggestions made here for new readers of our genre, it occurred to me this is a good place to get suggestions for a list I'm putting together. I'm trying to find good science fiction/fantasy to counter the lousy opinion many romance readers have of our genre, science fiction in particular. They see it as unfriendly to women, sexist, concerned with gadgets above people, and wooden. I'd like to put together some suggestions to show that our genre =isn't= all like that. If you all could offer suggestions, for both science fiction and fantasy, that would help a great deal. Also, if people could fill in the gaps for the titles I've so far collected (and correct misspellings) that would be great. Other authors on the list, please don't feel shy about recommending your own stories! What romance readers look for are the following: 1) A story that values, and rewards, the female perspective on life. This is a must. 2) A good love story that reaffirms the ability of people to achieve success in relationships, with respect for a woman's view on what qualifies as success. This doesn't mean an unrealistic view of love or marriage: quite the contrary, actually--with a perfect relationship, the story has less effective tension. Romance readers look for a portrayal of people dealing with problems, all that "messy emotional" business that science fiction has a reputation for avoiding. A corollary to "success in relationships" is that the lovers survive in the end. Romeo and Juliet is romantic, but it isn't a romance. In romance, they would have lived, with the second half of the story delving into how they dealt with the social, political, and emotional situation set-up by their marriage. 3) Good romance is often (though not necessarily) social commentary, eg, Mary Jo Putney's THE RAKE or ONE PERFECT ROSE. Putney's work is excellent, by the way. Imagine Masterpiece Theatre at its best. 4) The character in the role of love-interest should have appeal. Of course, how people define "appeal" varies immensely, but there needs to be a reasonably good possibility readers will believe the main character loves the love-interest, whether the characters are from the future, the past, here, on another planet, in another dimension, heterosexual, gay, older, younger, May-December in either direction (younger woman-older man, or older woman-younger man), rich, poor, mixed background, mixed cultures, or any other situation. The author needs to convince the reader on an emotional level. 5) Romance values, and often explicitly deals with, issues of honor, dignity, and loyalty. The most successful romances show characters, both female or male, who embody or achieve those characteristics. A classic example is THIS IS ALL I ASK, by Lynn Kurland. A corollary of this, of course, is that romance takes for granted that women have these qualities. One reason romance readers have told me they don't like science fiction is because they felt that the characterizations in the sf books they had read often portrayed women as having less honor than men. --- What I have so far: Short fiction: "Forgiveness Day," by Ursula Le Guin, possibly one of the best science fiction romances ever written. It won the Sturgeon Award, and I believe it also either won the Tiptree or was on the short list (does anyone know?). I can't remember if it won the Nebula too. Published in Asimov's, ?month, ?year. "The Wild Ships of Fairny," by Carolyn Ives Gilman. One of my all time favorite stories from F&SF. I'm not sure if it is fantasy or science fiction, but it's great either way. Published in F&SF, ?month, ?year. "United Powers," by Kathleen Massey-?. It appeared recently in MZB's Fantasy Magazine and was on the Nebula preliminary ballot. Published ?month, 1997 ?. "Yagara," by ?. Published in Asimov's, ?month, ?year. This is a story where the lovers split up in the end, but it is so well written, I've included it. Also, it pushes the envelope of "traditional" romance. Books: Sharon Shinn's novels: ARCHANGEL JOVAH'S ANGEL THE ALLELUIA FILES. JARAN, by Kate Elliott. SNOW QUEEN by ??? Is it Joan De Vinge? THE WHITE RAVEN, by Diana Paxson. THE MOON AND THE SUN, by Vonda McIntyre. THE GOLDEN KEY, by Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, and Kate Elliott. The two Lois McMaster Bujold books, SHARDS OF HONOR and BARRAYAR, about Cordelia and Aral, the parents of Miles. Isn't it possible now to get both books together, as one book? CORDELIA'S HONOR? How about Marion Zimmer Bradley? I remember much liking MZB's Darkover novels, which I read about 15-20 years ago. Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffrey? I haven't read much of their work, but I know they have crossed over to science fiction romance readers. I thought also of Tanith Lee's THE SILVER METAL LOVER. I'm not sure, though, because of the ending, where the silver-metal man is destroyed. In a romance, the lovers would have escaped, with a continuation of the story, or a sequel, about how they dealt with the intriguing problems they would encounter in such an unusual relationship. More suggestions? Best regards Catherine http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:21:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >> I believe that first you should look at the period you wish to set the book in and then research that period in history. Karen and everyone else who responded: Thanks for all your suggestions. Actually, the book is set about a generation into the future, so this *is* my research, since I don't normally hang out with Dianic Wiccans, or Pagans, etc. I have read quite a bit of the literature, but since culture, aided and abetted by the Internet, is changing so rapidly these days, I just thought I'd take an informal up-to-date poll. I suspect that best suggestion is just to make something up. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:28:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Pagan is the generic word. Specific branches of Paganism are Wicca, Church of All Worlds, Asatru, Faerie and a whole bunch of others. Stacy-- I just don't like the term "pagan" because it historically was not a definition of a specific religion, it was the definition of what a religion wasn't--Christian. Taking the term back from the Christians with a modern, non-pejorative definition is like gays taking back the term "queer" for their own use; but both somehow still leave a weird taste in the mouth of this heterosexual, atheistic person, and so I avoid using them. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG MOA chocolate cake In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jul 98 09:33:43 PDT." <001101bdb0d7$80004340$cd8dfbd0@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Here's Gwenhwyfar dying, or at least suffering, for a great big hunk of that >Turtle cake, but saying "Oh, don't worry about me, I'm just fine here with >my corn flakes." On the other hand there's Morgause. She's so busy >gobbling up those stale doughnuts she's had lying around the castle for the >past week that if you presented her with the Turtle cake she'd be so sated >she wouldn't get the full flavor even if she ate half the cake. Morgaine >is saying "For Goddess sake, Gwenhwyfar, eat the cake!" This is a charming and vivid metaphor but again I'm not sure it's truly applicable. I'd agree that this is probably how Morgaine sees it; but since I'm sure it's not how Morgause sees it, we're back to one group of people telling all women what is and what is not acceptable sexuality. What makes Lancelot Turtle cake, while all of Morgause's lovers are stale donuts? Is it that Gwenhwyfar is In Love (TM) while Morgause is just having a good time? Is it that we think Lancelot is a Good Person while Morgause's lovers are not? Nothing but the lens of Morgaine's perception shows us why Gwenhwyfar's desire is more valid than Morgause's. What if Lancelot's a thoughtless, mediocre lover and Morgause has found the ten best men in bed out of the entire population? Who's eating donuts now? (I really do like this metaphor, I'm not just trying to make fun of it.) I do agree with whoever said that Morgause's ethics were appalling and that her behavior towards other people was horrible. But it seems to me that (a) her sexual behavior was not necessarily bad in any objective way and (b) her sexuality was *supposed* to show her as a bad character, which would be a deliberate (and, to me, offensive) choice on the part of the author. There are certainly times when sexual behavior can be objectively bad: when it's for the purpose of hurting someone; when it's used to force someone to do something they don't want to do, or trick them into it; when it's demeaning or degrading. But I don't think Morgause does those things; and so I particularly resent the fact that her sexuality is used to show bad character (IMO). jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:39:48 CDT Reply-To: a-quick@carthage.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Quick Subject: Re: Reading suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Regarding Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's Landing" as a good introduction to feminist s/f: have you read the second book in the series yet? It develops in some pretty un-feminist ways. Specifically, women on the colony of Botany are _required_ to bear children for the sake of genetic diversity. Not required to raise them - cooperative day care being provided - having the choice of father, to be sure - but nonetheless not having the choice of _not_ having children. The protagonist Kris Bjornsen balks at this requirement. She ends up becoming pregnant by an acquaintence when both are falling-down drunk. The amusement and teasing she receives from other characters, supposedly her freinds, when she discovers and is upset by this pregnancy actually made me cry. What ever happened to "my body, my choice?" So, while Kris is undoubtedly a strong female character, women's input is valued on Botany, the logistics of daily life seem to reflect gender equality, and sexist/harassing males are ridiculed and punished, I have reservations about labeling the "Freedom" books feminist. ------------- Original Text From: "Anthea" , on 7/16/98 1:49 PM: To date the reading suggestions discussed have been for youngsters. I have a different problem: a reading list for someone whom I'm pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which WON'T put him off the genre. He's a man of 31 who (a) has only read a limited amount of SF/F and that generally of the "space opera"/"fantasy opera" variety AND (b) has little sympathy for/antipathy towards feminism or the women's movement in general. Obviously I have a pretty good idea of what general sf/f he should read, but it's the feminist sf/f that's the problem. I'd be grateful for two or three recommendations which you think summarize the position of feminist sf today. It's a difficult choice because the books must be enjoyable as well as "educational" and should contain _little_sex (that's to spare my feelings, not his). To give you an idea, I've started him off on Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's landing". AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:46:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <35ACDCC5.753CE33D@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It seems to me that all religions have a bad habit of trying to proscribe humans' sexual behavior, one way or another. I personally think that it's just a way of religious leaders to secure control over their followers. If people have to consult a priest or priestess to know what is the "right", "spiritual" attitude towards sexuality, they are more likely to become dependent on those advices and get more motivated to financially support the religious institution. Since the church (any) cannot collect taxes, the only way its officials can provide for themselves is to convince their followers in the vital necessity of their "spiritual quidance" in matters of birth, death, and procreation. Since births and deaths do not happen that often in the lives of most of the people, "spiritually guiding" their sex lives is the best way to exercise control over the lives of individuals. So they would not accidentally start making decisions about these things on their own and cut down on the donations to their "spiritual leaders". In my humble opinion, every person's body and sexuality belongs to him/her. And every person has a right to decide whether they want sex to be a form of worship, an expression of love, a way to meet people, or all of the above depending on the circumstances. The only role of sex that can be harmful to the spiritual condition of the society is when it is used for violence and humiliation. In all other cases, it's none of the society's business, and even less so of the church, Christian or Goddess-worshipping alike. Sex is a physical function of a body, the same as eating or sleeping. You can make the act of eating into some worship-like experience, too(think diets), assign to it some earth-shaking meaning (e.g. if you work with women, try going around with a box of chocolate candies. They will act like you offer them crack or something: "Oh, this is so bad for you!"), or act in some other exalted fashion towards it. But for some people eating is just something they do and never think about twice. The same is for sex. If someone want to turn sex (or eating, or using bathroom) into a form of spiritual bonding with the universe, they are welcome to do so. However, it does not mean everyone has to feel that way. I think that organized religions should stay away from people's sex lives just the same as they should be kept away from the government. Spiritual advisers are only humans who assign themselves the authority of Gods, and that never comes to anything good. Just my opinion. Marina On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Julieanne wrote: > Pat wrote: > > > But it's Marion's universe and once in in, you play by Marion's > > rules. Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of > > the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is post-Pill and > > still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for men, a jungle full > > of traps & pitfalls for women. > > > > > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A > > > lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? > > > Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent > > > meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an > > > individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and > > > no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon > > > others? The Avalon take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian > > > to me -- the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > > > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more than > > > these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > > > > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god > > > > I do not see a major difference, with seeing sexuality as being about "transient > physical pleasure and nothing more", and sexuality being about "bonding" and/or > "spirituality".The former implies that the importance of an individual's (or at > most a 'pair') pleasures, desires, and 'rights' override that of the community's > values, which is still a "spiritual" value system, just not in the traditional > sense. Its spirituality honours the "individual" over all others....and is very > characteristic of the "Me-first" generation. > Its also encouraged by popular media and culture, especially in the western world > - which commercialises sexuality as yet another consumer commodity, telling us > all constantly that we will suffer enormous psychological or health problems, if > our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a > spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. For example, look at the recent sales > figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - > you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising > sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very > effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. While > people are focussed on getting laid, or depressed about not getting laid, or > whether their genitals are functioning 'normally' (whatever that is, the > bench-marks and goalposts keep changing:), they aren't thinking about political > activism, or rebellion, or even just bonding in a larger community with common > interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who > think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of > transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" > who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as > much as the women in Mists of Avalon expressed their sexuality in "homage" and > "honour" to the Goddess of Nature and married the Land, instead of an individual > man. > > MZB states that part of her research for MOA included conversations with > modern-day pagans and Wiccans. One anecdote I have, in a similar fashion, was > speaking to a lady Wiccan who told me that their view of sexuality was that it > was the most "Sacred" expression of the "Life-Force" - because no matter how much > sex is *divorced* from reproduction by technology, culture or personal practises > - it remains powerfully symbolic as the ultimate creative act - the creation of > 'Life' itself - as well as a powerful "celebration" of Life itself - in honour of > its "potential" to create Life. Whether or not a child is created, or even if a > child is consciously and actively prevented from being conceived, or even > homosexual sexual behaviour ( amongst women interestingly, but not men) the > Sex-Act itself still remains an expression and celebration of that *potential*. > > And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the > Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - > perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being > anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry > immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or > manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to > die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. > > In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" > or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your > own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime > were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, > shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. > Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and > scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could > "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. > > In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating > it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as > childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that > they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for > important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you > want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common > practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within > their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, > amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards > to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being > careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being > careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of > "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the > others at Avalon. > > Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, > where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their > own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and > exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life > on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the > "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) > > Sexuality is incredibly important to the human race; regardless of how we might > reproduce ourselves by artifical means, now, or in the future. Every religion, > and ruling-class ideology, since the Year Dot has sought to control it somehow, > including our own with its message of liberalism and commercialism and its > "playful meaninglessness". Sexuality is at the "central core" of every human > being's psyche, soul or personality. Children in particular, and adults of > either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of > psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a > person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or > chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. > religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. > Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our > culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our > beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the > words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, > with religion, and sex and TV". > > > Julieanne:) > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:49:36 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Reading suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit How about David Weber's Honor Harrington series... appeals to both women and men. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patrick Boily Subject: Re: Reading suggestions Comments: To: Anthea In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Allo. Re: > [...] pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which > WON'T put him off the genre [...] What about "Native Tongue", by Suzette Haden Halgin, and "Prime Inversion" by Catherine Asaro ? The former reminded me a bit of "The Handmaid's Tale", and it had interesting discussions about the power of language. The latter was very enjoyable, with certain space-opera qualities, I don't think anyone would be put off by it, ... (mind you, it might not be considered to be feminist science-fiction novel, so ...) Well. But they are not your typical sf, and they definitely have strong female and male characters,,, Good read, -- Patrick Boily ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:16:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Religions, pagan & otherwise & sex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A previous post mentioned that no church can collect taxes. Wrong. In states with established churches (mostly Europe) they can & do, or the government does it for them. For a look at what might happen if a Goddess religion got co-opted by the government, real L. Neil Smith's RAINBOW CADENZA. Feminist? The culture is hideously anti-feminist. The heroine escapes and thumbs her nose at it. Call it a Horrible Example - and not in the usual sense. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Pagan/Profane (was BDG MOA sexuality ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was disconcerted to see the Greek classics described as "profane" in "Tom Brown's Schooldays"; it was a while before I caught on that the author was using the word opposed to "sacred", rather than today's common usage. Off topic, but it does relate to SF and attitudes to religious variations: has anyone else giggled his/her/its head off over Terry Pratchett's take on Tom Brown/Little Arthur in "Pyramids"? (Catweasel has, I expect!) And William Brown as the potential Antichrist in "Good Omens" was sheer joy. On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:28:58 -0400 Debra Euler writes: >>>Pagan is the generic word. Specific branches of Paganism are Wicca, >Church >of All Worlds, Asatru, Faerie and a whole bunch of others. > >Stacy-- > >I just don't like the term "pagan" because it historically was not a >definition of a specific religion, it was the definition of what a >religion wasn't--Christian. Taking the term back from the Christians >with a modern, non-pejorative definition is like gays taking back the >term "queer" for their own use; but both somehow still leave a weird >taste in the mouth of this heterosexual, atheistic person, and so I >avoid using them. > >Debra > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:23:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Reading suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to clarify: it's Suzette Haden Elgin, not Halgin I personally myself am very fond indeed of Native Tongue, and I'd be curious as to his reactions if he did read it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:41:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephanie Jackson Subject: Re: Trends at cons/Book suggestions Comments: To: asaro@sff.net In-Reply-To: <35AE50FA.3047@sff.net> from "Catherine Asaro" at Jul 16, 98 03:22:40 pm Content-Type: text > Books: > > Sharon Shinn's novels: > ARCHANGEL > JOVAH'S ANGEL > THE ALLELUIA FILES. > JARAN, by Kate Elliott. > SNOW QUEEN by ??? Is it Joan De Vinge? It's Joan D. Vinge, and the sequel the Summer Queen is excellent too, and deals heavily with romance. > THE WHITE RAVEN, by Diana Paxson. > THE MOON AND THE SUN, by Vonda McIntyre. > THE GOLDEN KEY, by Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, and Kate Elliott. > > The two Lois McMaster Bujold books, SHARDS OF HONOR and BARRAYAR, about > Cordelia and Aral, the parents of Miles. Isn't it possible now to get > both books together, as one book? CORDELIA'S HONOR? > > How about Marion Zimmer Bradley? I remember much liking MZB's Darkover > novels, which I read about 15-20 years ago. > > Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffrey? I haven't read much of their work, > but I know they have crossed over to science fiction romance readers. > Anne McCaffrey's book Dragonflight also has some romance aspects to it. -The usually lurking Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Send