Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9807C" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:02:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA sexuality >>>Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon because it involved no bond. It was a plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a plaything. --------------------- >>This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A >>lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? >>Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent >>meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an >>individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and >>no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon >>others? . There are more than these two ways to live, thank Peep. >>* Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT My point is that to the ladies of Avalon sexual activity, as many areas of life, did have an inherent meaning. Discipline was very important to them. They ate sparingly, they drank only of sacred water, Raven even gave up her voice in order to advance spiritually. You might think spiritual progression unimportant, but those on Avalon did not worship Peep. They worshipped a goddess who was made manifest in nature, and they used the things of nature to honor her. Since our sexual self could be called our most natural self, this is what they used in their worship. Unlike the Christians the woman's body was not owned by her husband, she shared it with whoever she chose, but she did not choose lightly. They seemed to have had no use for transient physical pleasure. They didn't "forbid" Morgause from her sexual pursuits. By choosing to follow a spiritually meaningless life she willingly withdrew from the power of the goddess honoring spirituality. Joyce Jones ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:38:36 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we're on the subject of suggested reading for a 12 year old boy, I thought I'd put in my own request. I have a 10 year old niece living in a small Texas town who has been entered in beauty pageants for many years (up until a year or two ago--guess grandma gave up when she always lost them). Being her slightly exotic (to her, anyway ;) foreign aunt (the one who really escaped--all the way to Europe) who corresponds with her and sends her the occassional package, I thought I might put my position to some good by giving her books to open her mind to a world beyond what she has thusfar experienced. Having grown up just a few miles from where she lives, my exposure to really different ideas through literature came a bit late (the libraries in the area were atrocious), and I would have appreciated access to books with a feminist point of view. What I got exposed to during my formative years consisted of the typical LITTLE WOMEN and JANE EYRE and all those books where the boys or men had the exciting adventures while women swooned and tried to please them. Knowing the school system she's in, I guess she'll be fed the same. What books could be given to this child to help counteract this suppressive environment? I've already found a copy of TATTERHOOD AND OTHER TALES (Ed. by Ethel Johnston Phelps) to send to her as well as digging out my old copy of SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL WIZARD (by Diane Duane) to pass along. Any book suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sharon Clark P.S. On the subject of children and sexual education... The school I attended growing up had no sex education program. The rate of unplanned teenage pregnancy was pretty high. Where I live now (The Netherlands), sexual education programs are part of every school curriculum and it starts, I believe, before or by age 12. My Dutch husband told me that when he had the classes in sex education (this would have been late 70's-early 80's), they taught everyone in the class how to properly put a condom on a banana (they might be using some sort of dildo-like object by now), and discussed issues of female and male masturbation and satisfying your partner as well as your self during sex. The teenage pregnancy rate in Holland is either the lowest or one of the lowest in the world. Could it be a coincidence? ========================================================================= NOTE! WordPerfect Attachment deleted from this text archive ... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:56:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_4B1FDF1D.C4A5CB69" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_4B1FDF1D.C4A5CB69 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sharon, this is a reading list we put together at Wiscon about 5 years ago for newfans ages 9 and up. I especially recommend for your niece Belden's MIND-CALL, Palmer's EMERGENCE, and ?'s THE GIRL WHO OWNED A CITY--all strong young females coping with disaster, as well as the better-known Edward Eager, Susan Cooper, and Robin McKinley . Hope it helps. Marsha Valance >>> Sharon Clark 07/15 4:38 am >>> Since we're on the subject of suggested reading for a 12 year old boy, I thought I'd put in my own request. I have a 10 year old niece living in a small Texas town who has been entered in beauty pageants for many years (up until a year or two ago--guess grandma gave up when she always lost them). Being her slightly exotic (to her, anyway ;) foreign aunt (the one who really escaped--all the way to Europe) who corresponds with her and sends her the occassional package, I thought I might put my position to some good by giving her books to open her mind to a world beyond what she has thusfar experienced. Having grown up just a few miles from where she lives, my exposure to really different ideas through literature came a bit late (the libraries in the area were atrocious), and I would have appreciated access to books with a feminist point of view. What I got exposed to during my formative years consisted of the typical LITTLE WOMEN and JANE EYRE and all those books where the boys or men had the exciting adventures while women swooned and tried to please them. Knowing the school system she's in, I guess she'll be fed the same. What books could be given to this child to help counteract this suppressive environment? I've already found a copy of TATTERHOOD AND OTHER TALES (Ed. by Ethel Johnston Phelps) to send to her as well as digging out my old copy of SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL WIZARD (by Diane Duane) to pass along. Any book suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sharon Clark P.S. On the subject of children and sexual education... The school I attended growing up had no sex education program. The rate of unplanned teenage pregnancy was pretty high. Where I live now (The Netherlands), sexual education programs are part of every school curriculum and it starts, I believe, before or by age 12. My Dutch husband told me that when he had the classes in sex education (this would have been late 70's-early 80's), they taught everyone in the class how to properly put a condom on a banana (they might be using some sort of dildo-like object by now), and discussed issues of female and male masturbation and satisfying your partner as well as your self during sex. The teenage pregnancy rate in Holland is either the lowest or one of the lowest in the world. Could it be a coincidence? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:19:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG: Mists Comments: To: Sandy Candioglos In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > As an aside, I thought I'd read "the once and future king", just to have > another perspective on the story. I haven't been able to get past the first > 50 pages or so (and those were tortuous). Anybody have suggestions of books > I might be able to stomach? I've looked for Mary Stewart at Powell's, and > haven't found her - is that because I'm looking in the SF/F section? Would > she be somewhere else? > Rosemary Sutcliff, THE SWORD AT SUNSET or anything else of hers set in that period (ask around - and some of them will be filed in the YA section). Parke Godwin, BELOVED EXILE (for Guinevere), FIRELORD (for Arthur) and THE LAST RAINBOW (if you can stand analogs to Native American history without tears of frustrated, helpless rage.). Phyllis Ann Karr, IDYLLS OF THE QUEEN. Murder mystery out of Mallory's Morte d'Arthur, with Sir Kay as the detective and Mordred (not yet a Bad Guy) as his sidekick; shows the decision Mordred made that led him to becomeing a Bad Guy.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:24:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980714194152.0068a9e8@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A > lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? > Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent > meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an > individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and > no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon > others? The Avalon take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian > to me -- the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more than > these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god > But it's Marion's universe and once in in, you play by Marion's rules. Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is post-Pill and still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for men, a jungle full of traps & pitfalls for women. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:36:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>They worshipped a goddess who was made manifest in nature, and they used the things of nature to honor her. This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. Debra Euler DAW Books ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:56:18 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 15 Jul 98 Debra Euler wrote: > This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any case. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:56:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Further to the Wiscon List, I'd add my highest recommendation to the Alanna series and the Immortals series (stand alone sequels to the Alanna books) by Tamora Pierce -- who appears on the Wiscon List as: "Pearce, Tamara (sic) ALANNA:THE FIRST ADVENTURE; IN THE HANDS OF THE GODDESS. Alanna disguises herself as her brother so she can win a place in the Prince's guard." Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:16:26 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl In-Reply-To: <35AC789C.1ED2D619@cas.et.tudelft.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Sharon Clark wrote: > Since we're on the subject of suggested reading for a 12 year old boy, I > thought I'd put in my own request. > > I have a 10 year old niece living in a small Texas town who has been > entered in beauty pageants for many years (up until a year or two > ago--guess grandma gave up when she always lost them). Being her > slightly exotic (to her, anyway ;) foreign aunt (the one who really > escaped--all the way to Europe) who corresponds with her and sends her > the occassional package, I thought I might put my position to some good > by giving her books to open her mind to a world beyond what she has > thusfar > experienced. > DO send her Elizabeth Moon's anthology PHASES. In it is a story about a small town in Texas, a girl who wants a horse, and being stuck in the horseback/pageant queen thing for (spoiler) number of years! See to it her family reads it too. Don't tell them it's science fiction, because it really isn't. Just a wee exaggeration. > formative years consisted of the typical LITTLE WOMEN and JANE EYRE and Little Women has been sweetened to death, but check out the rest of Alcott. She was a flag-waving feminist in many respects. Strictures against wearing corsets sounds trivial today, but it was the Victorian equivalent of going braless. And there are others. As for Jane Eyre, re-read it. Here's a woman who will not submit no matter what - and who refuses two marriages that might save her from poverty and struggle on the grounds that they'd be dishonest. Her "Reader, I married him" was at the end, when Rochester was blind and miserable and no hero, but pathetic.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:52:20 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That Wiscon list is for both genders, so it's a good place to start. Did you realize that a lot of fairy tales are in fact female centered? In the Oz books, rulers are women and non-human men, human males serving as helpers to the females. For classics, what about Daddy-Long-Legs or Anne of Green Gables? I agree about Alcott. I read an Old-Fashioned Girl at her Age, and Eight Cousins isn't bad either. Actually Alcott's feminism is not completely repressed in Little Women, where the lack of opportunity for women is frequently mentioned. She might enjoy Noel Streatfeild's Ballet Shoes. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:53:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Jul 00 15:56:18." <199807151356.PAA29688@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> >> This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a >> person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, >> Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a >> book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > >As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one >answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men >that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if >any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other >Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any >case. Certainly "Wiccan" applies both to men and to "layfolk" though most of the pagans I know hold to the idea that there are no layfolk (the role of "priest" or "priestess" rotates, or is traded off, or is decided based on who's tired and who's shy). "Pagan" is a pretty good bet for what today's goddess-worshipping practitioners call themselves, although literally the word covers a much wider spectrum. You might try looking in the alternative religion or spirituality (or, sometimes, women's studies) sections of your local bookstore for books on the topic. That can give you a wider range of names, as well as letting you know if you're writing something inaccurate (not that you can't, just that you should know). jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Richard Holmes Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) Hello, I've been lurking for a few weeks, reading the various insightful posts about "Mists of Avalon" and others - it is refreshing to see a lot of the diverse interpretations / attitudes here. I've always heard MoA held up as a great feminist novel which inspired many to go to Goddess worship / women's spirituality / Wicca / etc. I must say that when I read it for the first time a couple of years ago I too was appalled that the women on Avalon had so many of what I saw as patriarchal / hierarchical / power-over attitudes, and that the view of the universe was very fatalistic and inflexible. I did find the novel engaging, and very sad. It left me with many questions, as well. I was wondering what the significance of having Arthur fight the stag was - seemed like a male dominance ritual too much - "can he out-stag the stag?" kind of thing. Just wanted to make a comment on the following as well. Petra Mayerhofer writes: > > On 15 Jul 98 Debra Euler wrote: > > This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > > person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > > Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > > book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > > As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one > answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men > that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if > any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other > Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any > case. As far as I can tell, "Goddess-worshipper" is best; it is relatively short (as opposed to something like "ecclectic, neo-pagan, eco-feminist goddess-worshipper"). Today, many people will see "goddess-worshiper" as associated with feminist spirituality and /or Wicca (at least in USA and probably parts of Europe - other people in other countries may wish to correct me here); you can probably clarify any fine points in the rest of the novel. Since many cultures had goddesses but weren't necessarily feminist, much needs to be supported with context anyway before people know what you "really" mean by the term. This whole note has been slanted towards the assumption that you *do* mean a modern feminist goddess-worshipper type or someone similar - if not then perhaps a devotee to a particular Goddess might be called after that Goddess, or a made-up name based on the attribute of this Goddess. For instance, priestesses of certain Goddesses were sometimes named after the Goddess with the same name, or some attribute associated with the Goddess or Her mythology. As far as Bradley basing this on the Wicca cult, it does seem that it pulls in some of the mythology of Wicca, and blends it in with various older mythological themes. Not being Wiccan, though, I wouldn't be able to address the fine points. Thanks for the wonderful discussions thus far ... -Richard. @ \@/ Richard A. Holmes (rholmes@cs.stanford.edu) @ | @ \|/ "O dark expansive sea of night, @ | Tapestry of stars and solitude, @ , , | , , Crashing waves of chaos, Deep void of becoming, @ ' ' ' ' ' Radiant blackness, all-enfolding, @ Constant well of creation, @ Bestow you dark gifts and silver sparks @ On your parched and thirsty child. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:46:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: pot pourri Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nicola commented: >I'll be reading from my new novel, THE BLUE PLACE (which is fantasy in one >sense, at least ), in Seattle at the following times and places: And in what sense would that be? ::blink, blink!:: Sure wish I could attend! BTW, we got our signed copies in yesterday! ~~~~~~~ David Christenson - LDQT79A@prodigy.com commented: >True enough. But as a used book dealer, I must urge fans to also buy >*new* books by their favorite authors at least once in a while. If >nobody bought new books, there wouldn't be a used book market, right? >Also, it's the only way to support authors you like (authors don't make >money from used books, obviously). Gotta agree with Dave, but I *think* we discussed this topic at length a while back. Those with opinions might want to check the archives before treading the same ground? ~~~~~~~ Heather Law / Carol Mitchell commented: >We just got a report on an 1100 person con that dealt with literary as >opposed to media science fiction. The person who handles the dealer room >sells new books, and usually has at most 2 competitors. This time he had >3, including the GOH. He reported better sales than at other cons, but >this was probably partly because there were almost no used book dealers. >I can't imagine how anybody in a dealer's room that was all books could ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >make any money. On the other hand, most of my favorite mystery authors ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >are still writing-most of my favorite sf writers are dead. I read a lot >more fantasy than I used to, and media tie-ins. > But one can make money in a dealer's room which is nearly exclusively books, which is interesting. SF fans just seem to embrace other media and paraphanelia to a far greater extent. The dealer's room at the mystery convention included new book dealers from the U.S., U.K. and Canada; some used book dealers of the reading copy variety; and some of the "12 books on the table, sell just one and pay for the whole convention" variety. And everybody made money. Including the one person with pens which looked like syringes and mystery magnets, etc. ~~~~~~~ > I hope, >in my role as labor and delivery nurse, I haven't caused anyone to have a >horrible birth experience because I lust after James Spader in my heart. > >Joyce Jones Joyce: No plans to reproduce again, but if I were to, I'd love to have you help me and distract me with a mutual admiration of Mr. Spader during labor. :) ~~~~~~~ Candice Bradley [mailto:djbyrne@ATHENET.NET] > and a pretty >blatant >(and necessarily disgusting) dildo discussion Still curious about this, Candice. ~~~~~~~ Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT commented: >There are more than >these two ways to live, thank Peep. > >* Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god Janice: Didn't know Peep was a god. Please tell me worship involves graven images, not ::shudder:: communion. :) Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:30:09 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: BDG: Mists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could I add to Pat's list the 4 books by Jack Whyte, called collectively the Camulod Chronicles; THE SKYSTONE, THE SINGING SWORD, THE EAGLES' BROOD and THE SAXON SHORE. He has a Roman take on the Arthur legend and the women of Camulod are considered to have equal rights with the men, until the bishops' debate at St. Albans. I love reading variations on the Arthur legend and these are refreshingly different. Monica > Rosemary Sutcliff, THE SWORD AT SUNSET or anything else of hers >set in that period (ask around - and some of them will be filed in the YA >section). > Parke Godwin, BELOVED EXILE (for Guinevere), FIRELORD (for >Arthur) and THE LAST RAINBOW (if you can stand analogs to Native American >history without tears of frustrated, helpless rage.). > Phyllis Ann Karr, IDYLLS OF THE QUEEN. Murder mystery out of >Mallory's Morte d'Arthur, with Sir Kay as the detective and Mordred (not >yet a Bad Guy) as his sidekick; shows the decision Mordred made that led >him to becomeing a Bad Guy.> > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:45:58 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > But it's Marion's universe and once in in, you play by Marion's > rules. Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of > the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is post-Pill and > still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for men, a jungle full > of traps & pitfalls for women. > > > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A > > lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? > > Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent > > meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an > > individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and > > no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon > > others? The Avalon take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian > > to me -- the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more than > > these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god > I do not see a major difference, with seeing sexuality as being about "transient physical pleasure and nothing more", and sexuality being about "bonding" and/or "spirituality".The former implies that the importance of an individual's (or at most a 'pair') pleasures, desires, and 'rights' override that of the community's values, which is still a "spiritual" value system, just not in the traditional sense. Its spirituality honours the "individual" over all others....and is very characteristic of the "Me-first" generation. Its also encouraged by popular media and culture, especially in the western world - which commercialises sexuality as yet another consumer commodity, telling us all constantly that we will suffer enormous psychological or health problems, if our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. For example, look at the recent sales figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. While people are focussed on getting laid, or depressed about not getting laid, or whether their genitals are functioning 'normally' (whatever that is, the bench-marks and goalposts keep changing:), they aren't thinking about political activism, or rebellion, or even just bonding in a larger community with common interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as much as the women in Mists of Avalon expressed their sexuality in "homage" and "honour" to the Goddess of Nature and married the Land, instead of an individual man. MZB states that part of her research for MOA included conversations with modern-day pagans and Wiccans. One anecdote I have, in a similar fashion, was speaking to a lady Wiccan who told me that their view of sexuality was that it was the most "Sacred" expression of the "Life-Force" - because no matter how much sex is *divorced* from reproduction by technology, culture or personal practises - it remains powerfully symbolic as the ultimate creative act - the creation of 'Life' itself - as well as a powerful "celebration" of Life itself - in honour of its "potential" to create Life. Whether or not a child is created, or even if a child is consciously and actively prevented from being conceived, or even homosexual sexual behaviour ( amongst women interestingly, but not men) the Sex-Act itself still remains an expression and celebration of that *potential*. And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the others at Avalon. Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) Sexuality is incredibly important to the human race; regardless of how we might reproduce ourselves by artifical means, now, or in the future. Every religion, and ruling-class ideology, since the Year Dot has sought to control it somehow, including our own with its message of liberalism and commercialism and its "playful meaninglessness". Sexuality is at the "central core" of every human being's psyche, soul or personality. Children in particular, and adults of either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, with religion, and sex and TV". Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <35ACDCC5.753CE33D@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Julieanne wrote: > our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a > spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. I had a therapist who kept pushing that on me - a divorced woman well past 45. I tried. I really tried. The harder I tried the more my sex drive dried up. But I find I lead a full, rich life without one. Maybe I'm like the deaf person who can't appreciate Beethoven and Mozart; but there's plenty else out there to enjoy. For example, look at the recent sales > figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - > you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising > sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very > effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. But, boy, does it sell Viagra. And cigarettes. And cars. And perfume. This isn't about sex; it's about $$$$$. > interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who > think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of > transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" > who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as Yes. See Brave New World. > > And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the > Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - > perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being > anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry > immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or > manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to > die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. > In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" > or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your > own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime > were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, > shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. > Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and > scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could > "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. I agree. Of course, I'm Wiccan. But this may simply be an untrammeled female viewpoint. We're a female-centered religion and this speaks to my deepest gut instincts as a woman and as a mother. On the other hand, mystery writer Andrew Vacchs would also agree with you, and as far as I can tell, he - and his hero - don't have any religion to speak of. Though I love his characterization of the D.A., a social worker, et. al. as "warrior women". Using the law as their sword. > In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating > it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as > childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that > they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for > important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you > want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common > practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within > their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, > amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards > to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being > careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being > careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of > "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the > others at Avalon. In MZB's Darkover series the locals consider characters who are exclusively gay, especially those who favor young partners, as having never outgrown their adolescence. A grown-up, while keeping and loving his male partner, chooses an equal to love, and also does his duty by his lineage. (But then, Darkover is a medieval world.) > Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, > where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their > own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and > exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life > on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the > "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) > Children in particular, and adults of > either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of > psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a > person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or > chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. > religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. > Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our > culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our > beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the > words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, > with religion, and sex and TV". > But forbidding sex with harsh penalties also works towards the same end. See "1984"; also see Heinlein's "revolt in 2100." (and read it back to back with Margaret Atwood's THE HANDMAID'S TALE. Same culture, one at the beginning and the other at the end.)> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:52:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual > truth. A lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should > they have to? Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have > much of an inherent meaning -- the meaning is in what the > participants bring to it. If an individual's viewpoint is that sex > is about transient physical pleasure and no more, why not leave that > person be as long as they inflict no harm upon others? The Avalon > take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian to me -- > the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more > than these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god Pat Mathews wrote: > But it's Marion's universe and once in, you play by Marion's rules. As a reader I have the freedom to continually question whatever I am reading. As a reader, I take issue with MZB's rules. > Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of > the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is > post-Pill and still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for > men, a jungle full of traps & pitfalls for women. I see what you mean. I've heard tales of women in The Movement of the 1960s-70s being used by guys who told them they weren't liberated enough if they didn't believe in "free love." This type of pressure and exploitation qualifies as "inflicting harm" in my book. What I was trying to say is that the idea of sex as sacred bonding plays into the fetishistic tendencies already present in our society. I prefer a philosophy which views sexuality as just another part of everyday life that does not need to be fraught with ritual and emotional issues. This does not mean, as Joyce Jones remarked, that I find "spiritual progression" unimportant. It means that I think an obsession with sexuality and the abstractions of Nature & Culture helps no one in the long run. Instead of flipping the coin over and over (goddess or god, goddess or god?) I would prefer to abandon the currency. This partly explains why I didn't think highly of MoA or Elizabeth Hand's *Waking the Moon* and why I do enjoy some of Samuel Delany's work, Elizabeth A. Lynn's Tornor trilogy and Candas Jane Dorsey's *Black Wine*. In these books, sex CAN be exploitative and CAN be a transcendent spiritual experience, but it can also be just a pleasant way to pass the time in the context of lives that find spiritual meaning elsewhere. And if someone doesn't feel like having sex at all it's not a big deal. I like that. ------------------------- In a somewhat unrelated matter, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Didn't know Peep was a god. Please tell me worship involves graven > images, not ::shudder:: communion. :) *Laugh* If anyone ever actually tasted a Peep the religion would crumble! -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:55:34 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > >> This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > >> person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > >> Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > >> book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > > > >As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one > >answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men > >that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if > >any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other > >Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any > >case. > > I read so many different types of perceptions/views on this some years ago, when I was researching "goddess-symbolism" - and heard different terms, expressions etc so often, I would get frustrated and annoyed at the inconsistencies and differences in approach to the symbolism/rituals and theologies and even arguments about northern European paganism, versus Celtic paganism, versus Pelasgian (ancient Greek) paganism versus Minoan paganism versus 20th Century eco-feminism..sheesh! There were more 'factions', and 'branches' and 'sects' than the UN! Although regardless of the "Name" they call themselves or each other - the underlying symbolism of the Goddess, the Holy Trinity images etc remain fairly consistent. Later on, I changed my mind - well-defined ideologies, and theologies etc become 'rigid', or static, and I associate them with the boring sameness, and inflexibility, and resistance to change, that I see in patriarchal religions and other philosophies from capitalism to communism. I once read that feminist writers like Simone de Beavoir and later 60's and 70's feminists were often criticised for being eclectic .. this often puzzled me, what is inherently wrong, or unscholarly, or sinful, about being selective, taking pieces of philosophies which are appropriate and leaving the rest of it behind, and building something new from it? I finally figured that the enormous variety found in concepts and ideas of Goddess spirituality were indeed very appropriate to feminism, in that feminism is not 'rigid' , or 'fixed' and half-dead like patriarchal thought processes. It is constantly Moving, Spiralling, and Evolving. And thats the way it should be, like the old joke about women always *changing their minds*. These days I question the assumption which makes that a put-down or criticism of women, as to me, it infers 'Evolution' or 'Growth' of the mind, of the spirit, of Life itself. At least changing minds, isn't burying the mind in solid concrete to remain "root-bound" for centuries. So Jessie, I would recommend that you make a name up:)) As long as there is sufficient information in the context for readers to recognise who/what you are describing etc. What the heck - make up several! LOL Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: next book? and Tepper; and Speculative Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. Next book? What's the next book on the list after the MZB? I wasn't on this list when the books were discussed, and I'd like to be up to speed to discuss the next one. 2. Tepper: Gibbon's Decline and Fall, and Sasson's Princess. I have been finishing up Tepper's Gibbon's Decline and Fall. I am reading one Tepper book after another -- much like I did with Vonda McIntyre when I discovered her work, which I love, and later used Dreamsnake as the reading for the final week of my Medical Anthropology course a couple of years ago. Back to Gibbon's Decline and Fall. In the middle of reading this book, I got distracted by another book about Moslem women in Saudi Arabia, a trade paperback written by Jean P. Sasson called Princess. Sasson says she is telling the story of a real person, so it is written autobiographically from the words and diaries of a Saudi woman she calls Sultana. Being an anthropologist, I am not surprised by purdah and female circumcision, but I was very much surprised by the depths of the horrors experienced by Saudi women at the hands of Saudi men. Neither the author nor Sultana claim to be anti-Islam, but rather dislike the way Islam has been misinterpreted to harm women's lives. It was an interesting interlude to my reading of Tepper's book Gibbon's Decline and Fall. Tepper describes a world at the end of the 20th century which is much like the contemporary world of Saudi women. She has given me a vision of what it might be like here in the US were fundamentalism to become sufficiently powerful that women's lives here might be similarly restricted and fouled. 3. One more question: The origins of the term "speculative fiction"? I am not looking for a simple definition, but rather an historical one. Candice Bradley Appleton, WI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:00:12 +0200 Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature In-Reply-To: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah 's message of Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:53:02 -0700 > You might try looking in the alternative religion or spirituality > (or, sometimes, women's studies) sections of your local bookstore > for books on the topic. Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today" is a good place to start. See more info about it at Amazon.com. Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:04:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Being >careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being >careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and >of "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the >others at Avalon. I've seen this claim a couple of times but I'm not sure it stands up. I don't think Morgause was careless, irresponsible, or disrespectful of herself. She may have been disrespectful of other people's boundaries (I wouldn't say it's oppressive to say that you shouldn't try to seduce your hostess's husband without her approval), but she didn't think sex was unimportant, was nothing. She simply ignored everyone else's strictures about when it was appropriate to do it. Although I felt that Avalon's *stated* views towards sex were admirable (take it seriously, have a great time, respect your partners, don't use it for evil) it always seemed to me that many of Avalon's priestesses didn't really think the way I would expect people to think if those were their rules. Morgaine worries and fusses about sex as much as Gwenhwyfar -- and yet doesn't she say that Gwenhwyfar, who's in the same situation as Morgause except that Gwenhwyfar likes her husband more, should sleep with whoever she wants, because to refuse that is a sin against the Goddess? Unless I gravely misunderstand something, it just seems inconsistent to me. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:17:07 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: pagan nomenclature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit See also Francesca De Grandis' "Be A Goddess." Wicca is the modern practice of the "Old Religion." Ergo -- those who practice it, of whatever gender, are Wiiccans. In my experience the priests and priestesses do not "trade off" based on tiredness or anything else. Most Wiccans go through some sort of study and initiation (generally in steps) to attain the title of Priestess or Priest. It isn't just whoever happens to want to claim the title. "Pagan" more or less means primarily earth-based religions which are non- mainstream faiths. Most of the names I've heard for those who especially honor the Goddess have been somewhat cumbersome -- "Goddess-oriented" or "Goddess-based" being the least wordy. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:20:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thank you for the correction. >>> Anne Vespry 07/15 8:56 am >>> Further to the Wiscon List, I'd add my highest recommendation to the Alanna series and the Immortals series (stand alone sequels to the Alanna books) by Tamora Pierce -- who appears on the Wiscon List as: "Pearce, Tamara (sic) ALANNA:THE FIRST ADVENTURE; IN THE HANDS OF THE GODDESS. Alanna disguises herself as her brother so she can win a place in the Prince's guard." Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:11:27 CDT Reply-To: a-quick@carthage.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Quick Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Many posts have attributed Morguase's negative portrayal in Mists of Avalon as the result of her sexual behavior. This does not seem to be the central issue for me. Instead, could her negative portrayal be based on her insatiable, amoral pursuit of power? Each action she takes in the course of the story is a conscious effort to accumulate power. She uses her sexuality to bid for influence throughout the novel, starting with Gorlois and continuing through the young captain at the end (forget his name...). She shelters Morgaine and fosters Mordred because she thinks this will give her influence over two major contenders for the throne. She prevents Guinevere from conceiving/bearing a child (contender for the throne not under Morguase's control) by having a servant slip her drugs. She advances her own sons, especially Gawain, as the legal successors to the throne. She uses blood magic to advance her position. And in all these actions, she never asks "what is right?" or "is this wrong?", only "what will this get me?" She is hard, ruthless, unprincipled, and very nearly successful. One might rather admire her, if only she weren't so nasty. Incidentally, does this fit the idea of her wearing the fourth, hidden face of the Goddess - attributes of this face being wantonness, ruthlessness, violence, blood lust, and destruction? (Let me know if I'm way off the mark here.) BTW, thanks for the stimulating discussion and the wonderful reading suggestions. I'm off to petition the librarian... wait, I _am_ the librarian. :-] ------------- Original Text From: "Pat" , on 7/3/98 1:16 PM: On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Julieanne wrote: > our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a > spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. I had a therapist who kept pushing that on me - a divorced woman well past 45. I tried. I really tried. The harder I tried the more my sex drive dried up. But I find I lead a full, rich life without one. Maybe I'm like the deaf person who can't appreciate Beethoven and Mozart; but there's plenty else out there to enjoy. For example, look at the recent sales > figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - > you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising > sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very > effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. But, boy, does it sell Viagra. And cigarettes. And cars. And perfume. This isn't about sex; it's about $$$$$. > interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who > think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of > transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" > who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as Yes. See Brave New World. > > And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the > Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - > perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being > anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry > immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or > manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to > die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. > In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" > or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your > own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime > were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, > shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. > Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and > scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could > "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. I agree. Of course, I'm Wiccan. But this may simply be an untrammeled female viewpoint. We're a female-centered religion and this speaks to my deepest gut instincts as a woman and as a mother. On the other hand, mystery writer Andrew Vacchs would also agree with you, and as far as I can tell, he - and his hero - don't have any religion to speak of. Though I love his characterization of the D.A., a social worker, et. al. as "warrior women". Using the law as their sword. > In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating > it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as > childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that > they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for > important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you > want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common > practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within > their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, > amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards > to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being > careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being > careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of > "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the > others at Avalon. In MZB's Darkover series the locals consider characters who are exclusively gay, especially those who favor young partners, as having never outgrown their adolescence. A grown-up, while keeping and loving his male partner, chooses an equal to love, and also does his duty by his lineage. (But then, Darkover is a medieval world.) > Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, > where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their > own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and > exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life > on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the > "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) > Children in particular, and adults of > either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of > psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a > person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or > chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. > religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. > Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our > culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our > beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the > words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, > with religion, and sex and TV". > But forbidding sex with harsh penalties also works towards the same end. See "1984"; also see Heinlein's "revolt in 2100." (and read it back to back with Margaret Atwood's THE HANDMAID'S TALE. Same culture, one at the beginning and the other at the end.)> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: CFP: Science Fiction/Fantasy (9-10; PCA/ACA 3-31-4-3-99) Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu, owner-melus-l@listserver.TAMU-Commerce.edu, sfuf@csd.uwm.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY 1999 PCA/ACA Conference Call for Papers for the 1999 National Convention of the Popular Culture Association & American Culture Association March 31-April 3, 1999 San Diego, CA, at the Marriott Hotel The Science Fiction/Fantasy Area of the Popular Culture Association solicits papers, paper proposals, and panel proposals from scholars interested in any aspect of science fiction and fantasy. Any disciplinary method or approach is welcome! Proposals on film, television, and written works are solicited. Topics may include (but are not limited to): Any Author Earth: Final Conflict Propaganda in SF/F Any SF/F Film Ethnicity Psychoanalysis and SF/F Any SF/F TV Show Feminism Roddenberry's Legacy Aesthetics Heinlein SF and Genre Questions Aliens Humor Spielberg's Influence Alternate Histories Invented Religions Star Gate: SG1S Angels in Modern Myth Lewis, C. S. Star Trek (TOS, TNG, DS9, and Television Marxism in SF/F VOY) Apocalyptic Concerns Medievalism and SF/F Urban Fantasy Architecture Millenium Syndication vs. Network SF/F Arthurian Legend Multiculturalism Teaching SF/F Babylon 5 New Heroes & Heroines in SF/F Utopias/Dystopias Cable TV and SF/F Old Masters/New Writers of SF/F Xena:WP and Hercules:TLJ Chaos Theory in SF/F Philosophy and SF/F Children's Fantasy Postcolonial SF/F Class and Social Constructs Comic Books/Art in SF/F Computer Games & Role Playing PAPER PROPOSAL: For a paper proposal, send a 250-word abstract OR a finished paper (MAXIMUM 20 minutes reading time) with a 50-word abstract. Please include a separate cover sheet with your name, mailing address, phone number, and the presentation title. PANEL PROPOSAL: For a panel proposal, send four 250-word abstracts OR finished papers with 50-word abstracts and a panel name. Please include a separate cover sheet with the name, mailing address, and phone number of each panel member, the panel title, and an indication of the panel chair (who may be one of the presenters). PLEASE NOTE: Participation in one Area of the Popular Culture or American Culture associations precludes participation in any of the other areas at the same conference. MAIL SUBMISSIONS TO: Barbara Silliman P. O. Box 19722 Johnston, RI 02919-0722 E-mail: PLEASE FOLLOW UP E-MAIL SUBMISSIONS WITH HARD COPY A.S.A.P. DEADLINE FOR ALL SUBMISSIONS: SEPTEMBER 10, 1998 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:52:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Sex and Tepper and books for young 'teens Comments: To: Candice Bradley In-Reply-To: <35A7AF5F.E488B8A4@athenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I said that I did not expect to convince anyone :). On the topic of parents trying to protect children -- that is natural, and I am by no means against it. After all, that's what parents are for. My point was that prohibitive measures did not help as much as harmed. Let me explain. Example: drinking age. Alcohol is a dangerous substance and requires responsibility in consuming. The problem is, responsibility does not come automatically with age, just because one turns 21. The same as one cannot learn how to drive a car simply by turning 16, they have to be taught to do it. Keeping "underage" people completely away from alcohol, if successfull, only leaves them completely unprepared to drink responsibly once they turn 21 (or once they get unrestricted access to it, e.g. at a college fraternity party). As a result, people drink themselves to death. The biggest mystery to me is why anyone expects anything else. After all, if a child is kept away from cars till they turn 16 and then handed car keys, it would be surprising if they _did not_ get killed. In other words, if you don't want your children drive into the first tree from your driveway, teach them how to drive before giving them the car. If you don't want them to die from alcohol poisoning on their 21st birthday, make sure that they learn their limits at home -- one glass of wine at a family dinner has not killed anyone, while it does eliminate the whole "forbidden fruit" issue. Finally, if I don't want my children to be ignorant about sex, I'd have to provide them with positive information about it since early age, before they had learned about it from somewhere else. Of course, in order to do that, one is not expected to hand their children an issue of Penthouse or something else that portrays sex as dirty and exploitive. What I found funny, was the fact that a _feminist_ science fiction book, one of those well liked by the members of the list, was considered as dangerous as some triple-X magazine -- because it mentions dildos and lesbian sex. The question is: is it better when teens learn about dildos from drawings on the desks in high school/grade school? And they will, I can assure you of that. I agree that people mature at different age. Some of 12-years-olds may not like sexual stuff in a book. Some of 42-year-old may not like it. In which case, they would not read it, children and adults the same. If you worry that you child would read something they consider being a bunch of crap -- you are right, they will. But only if you lock it away in the cupboard and tell them not to, ever. They'll have to, even if they hate it, just to find out what was all that fuss about. I understand your irony about 20-year-olds telling you how to raise your teenage children. However, it might be that we simply still remember what was working for us at that age, and what was causing results exactly opposite to the ones our parents had intended. That's why, us twentysomethings being the nice people we are , we sometimes try to prevent our friends from repeating the mistakes our parents used to make while raising us. While our friends sometimes seem to be more concerned to correct their own mistakes of the youth -- indirectly -- through the lives of their children, by preventing them from taking the same path. Which almost never works. I don't blame those who want to protect their children. It's just prohibition of any kind hardly ever does that. Everyone has to make their own mistakes in order to learn. And trying to prevent them from that will only convince them that those things are not mistakes at all. The only thing one can do is to give their children as much information about dangerous things as possible, and be there for them if they still do it and get hurt. Because all your mistakes, no matter how bad, were what made you you. Your children deserve at least a chance to find their own way. Besides, most teenagers are not the self-distructive idiots they are often portrayed to be. And when they trust you, they might even ask you for an advice. Which is not going to happen if you act like a cop. I know that it's hard to be rational when it concerns one's own children. It must be the same as people losing their brains when falling in love. But it's worth the effort, I think, if being rational can actually help create understanding between generations. To those who get upset about me writing this -- don't be. You still are going to do with your kids whatever you think is right, and I know it. Just think about this sometimes when you wonder why they are giving you so much headache. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <001a01bdaf70$00967420$c0272299@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I still think that Nimue/Kevin story was extremely disgusting. The whole concept of raising the girl in isolation just to sacrifice her body, and in the end, her life for a political game seems to me pretty unjustified, to put it mild. "Punishing" Kevin did not carry any practical meaning in saving Avalon or make any difference in the political situation. It was a simple, primitive, KGB-style political revenge against a "dissident". Using a body of a 14-year-old girl for that was IMHO sexual exploitation. It seems to me that Avalon priestesses were caught in what is called the self-perpetuating circle of abuse. First, Vivian almost destroyed Morgaine by making her screw her brother. Then Morgaine destroyed Nimue, also "for the sake of a high cause". And each of them is being very self-righteous about it: "I went through it, so you have to as well. That's life, baby" or something pretty damn close. Just like those families where parents rape their children who then grow up and rape their own children, and so on, perpetually... Why is it that female sexuality always have to "serve" some "high purpose"? How is standing in for "the land" (an object) in the inauguration ceremony of a king is better than being married to a stranger as a free supplement to your father's horses? In Kevin's cause, it was not even a "marriage to the land", he was not a king, but a traitor. He would probably die by himself couple years later, or get burned at a stake by his new buddies-the priests. What was the point of sacrificing the girl? Especially considering the fact that she was the only one who could take over after Morgaine. They talked so much that there was almost no one left to take over as the next High Priestess, and they simply threw away their only hope. The main point of Christianity was also that "sex is not a plaything". Avalon's position on it does not seem any better. Having sex only for procreation, or only "to please the Goddess", either way is only a "sacred duty" that women must surrender to, whether they like it or not. Why is it that male sexuality is never used as a form of spiritual currency? >The freedom to treat great spiritual truths lightly doesn't seem to > me to be much of a freedom. Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon > because it involved no bond with the land or even with the men she chose, > no bond at all. It was a plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a > plaything. I don't find that attitude oppressive, I find it liberating > to know we each possess this power. I think what robs a person of the potential for growth is when she kills herself at the age of 14 after being used as a hooker by her primary caretakers for the sake of their social intrigues. One cannot grow when she's dead. Honestly, Nimue's story alone made me feel that Avalon got what it deserved. Maybe it had been a great spiritual power at some point, but by the time described in Mists it seemed to degrade into a bunch of control freaks who did not want to relinquish their power over the country and would stop at nothing to keep it. IMHO. Marina P.S.I really liked The Mists of Avalon. It's a beautiful tragic story (at least most of the time). But if it was for real and accurately represented historical facts, I would be glad that Avalon lost its power. I think I would hate to live in a world ruled by psychics. It's bad enough when they advise to the spouses of presidents... http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:53:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Debra wrote; <> There are many goddesses and many people who worship them -presumably there are many names for the worshippers. As a radical lesbian eco-feminist witch - I call myself a Dianic Wiccan. For me that's a woman-only; Goddess worshipping form of spirituality that is not centered around a particular historical or mythological Goddess, rather the Goddess as manifested in every woman. Others who also call themselves either Dianic Wiccans (generally women only) or Wiccans (generally includes men) have different definitions. I'd suggest reading Z Budapest, Diane Stein, Jade and a host(ess?) of others. Petra wrote: As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. None of the wiccans I know can even loosely be accused of belonging to a cult. As best I can tell, one of the few spiritual tenets that most Wiccans of any type will agree to; is that each of us is ultimately and personally responsible for our own spirituality. Hardly an appropriate starting point for any cult. I agree with the woman that suggested (sorry, I lost your post somehow - you said it so much better) that the very uncodified and anarchic nature of Goddess spirituality with its emphasis on creation and evolution rather than hierarchy and form is its greatest strength. Certainly that's much of its attraction for me. While MZB may have done a great job of research and spoken to many Wiccans and pagans, her vision of Avalon is based on her view of the world. From my perspective - she doesn't "get" what a woman loving, Goddess centered spirituality is about. She may tell this story from a female point of view and may have included some feminist values. However, I'd like to remind us all that she not only disavows feminism, she has actively expressed hostility toward feminism and feminists. Any wonder that in her Avalon; the so-called Goddess spirituality is mysoginist and suspiciously patriarchal, as in Nimue's sacrifice, etc., etc.? Anyone care to speculate on what an intentionally feminist version of this story might be like? And Marina - Don't go knocking people who've had psychic experiences (presidential spousal advisors notwithstanding); you never know who might really be one - yourself included. Thank you all for the interesting and amusing discussion! Mary-Ellen Maynard Crystal Mist Glass Guffey, CO ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:51:27 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature In-Reply-To: <9807151453.AA20740@nsl-too.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Karen here again!!!!!! Trough out the ages we "Wiccans" have been called many things from various other cultures. I believe that first you should look at the period you wish to set the book in and then research that period in history. I don't feel will find an exact answer to your question but I would suggest you read Doreen Valient. She has helped me in my quest. I now call myself a Healer as I am connected to all life forces, "good" and "evil" and believe I hold a balance of sort between the two and am able to use Mother Nature, a Goddess and a God's qualities to heal myself and others around me. I know that this might seem egotistical but to use our natural forces to heal with the help from the old ways I think is better than tearing life apart. My short answer would be is to research through history until you find an answer you're comfortable with and instinctively "feel" it is the right choice. Blessed Be. Karen c/- russwill@alphalink.com.au. -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU] On Behalf Of Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Sent: Thursday, 16 July 1998 0:53 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] pagan nomenclature >> This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a >> person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, >> Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a >> book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. > >As far as I know Bradley based her book on the Wicca cult. So, one >answer might be Wicca, but I do not know whether you could call a men >that nor whether the term is restricted to their priestesses (if >any) or applied to all followers. And there are probably other >Goddess-worshippers around, so the term is not comprehensive in any >case. Certainly "Wiccan" applies both to men and to "layfolk" though most of the pagans I know hold to the idea that there are no layfolk (the role of "priest" or "priestess" rotates, or is traded off, or is decided based on who's tired and who's shy). "Pagan" is a pretty good bet for what today's goddess-worshipping practitioners call themselves, although literally the word covers a much wider spectrum. You might try looking in the alternative religion or spirituality (or, sometimes, women's studies) sections of your local bookstore for books on the topic. That can give you a wider range of names, as well as letting you know if you're writing something inaccurate (not that you can't, just that you should know). jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Debra Euler wrote: (snip) > This may seem off-topic, but what is the preferred way to refer to a > person who is a Goddess-worshipper? Like, Christian, Muslim, > Pagan...Goddess-worshipper? It seems a bit clunky. This is for a > book I'm working on, so it does have to do with SF. Pagan is the generic word. Specific branches of Paganism are Wicca, Church of All Worlds, Asatru, Faerie and a whole bunch of others. You might want to read *Drawing Down the Moon* by Margot Adler to get a good overview of the history of modern Paganism. > Debra Euler > DAW Books Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:33:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA chocolate cake Jessie, I think it's like this. My sister makes something called Turtle Cake. Have you heard of it? It's chocolate cake with gobs of caramel filling and chocolate frosting on top. So good it could make you wet your pants. Here's Gwenhwyfar dying, or at least suffering, for a great big hunk of that Turtle cake, but saying "Oh, don't worry about me, I'm just fine here with my corn flakes." On the other hand there's Morgause. She's so busy gobbling up those stale doughnuts she's had lying around the castle for the past week that if you presented her with the Turtle cake she'd be so sated she wouldn't get the full flavor even if she ate half the cake. Morgaine is saying "For Goddess sake, Gwenhwyfar, eat the cake!" Joyce Jones > >Although I felt that Avalon's *stated* views towards sex were admirable (take >it seriously, have a great time, respect your partners, don't use it for evil) >it always seemed to me that many of Avalon's priestesses didn't really think >the way I would expect people to think if those were their rules. Morgaine >worries and fusses about sex as much as Gwenhwyfar -- and yet doesn't she say >that Gwenhwyfar, who's in the same situation as Morgause except that >Gwenhwyfar likes her husband more, should sleep with whoever she wants, >because to refuse that is a sin against the Goddess? Unless I gravely >misunderstand something, it just seems inconsistent to me. > >jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:30:35 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Sheri S. Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all! This is my first day and first post with this group. I'm so excited! I found this group by doing a search for Sheri S. Tepper. I just finished reading The Gate to Women's Country for about the twentieth time. I love the book, and the author for that matter. I have quite a few of her other books as well. I was looking forward to finding out more information on the WWW about Ms. Tepper and was disappointed to find only the one link to this group (through Yahoo, I'll try others today as well). I have two other series/books/authors that I would like to share and talk about: Maia by Richard Adams The Sheepfarmer's Daughter Trilogy by Elizabeth Moon I recommend both highly and would love to talk with anybody that has read them or would like to read them. Both books have very strong feminine leads and are a joy to read. That's all for now. Thanks for letting me join! Karina Otavis64@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:37:58 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: FYI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Patricia (Pat) Mathews mentioned Andrew Vachss, and I just wanted to post the correct spelling in case anyone wanted to look for his books. Anyone else think there seemed to be secret hidden messages in the page after page of MIME messages from Marsha? Kinda hypnotic as it scrolls by... Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:41:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: READING SUGGESTIONS--this time for 10-yr. old girl In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Pat wrote: > As for Jane Eyre, re-read it. Here's a woman who will not submit > no matter what - and who refuses two marriages that might save her from > poverty and struggle on the grounds that they'd be dishonest. Her > "Reader, I married him" was at the end, when Rochester was blind and > miserable and no hero, but pathetic.> I had mixed feelings about Jane Eyre when I read it (age 13). On one side, she was an ugly girl (i.e. something I could relate to) who succeded and got the guy. On the other side, the whole second part of the book (after the guy's crazy first wife showed up at Jane's wedding, so Jane run off and lived on the street) was, IMHO, completely unnecessary and unbelievable. It was like -- of course, a poor ugly girl could not marry a rich cute guy and live happily thereafter. He had to loose everything he had and become a cripple so she could have him. I was dissappointed. But the first half was pretty good. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:49:45 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Reading suggestions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT To date the reading suggestions discussed have been for youngsters. I have a different problem: a reading list for someone whom I'm pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which WON'T put him off the genre. He's a man of 31 who (a) has only read a limited amount of SF/F and that generally of the "space opera"/"fantasy opera" variety AND (b) has little sympathy for/antipathy towards feminism or the women's movement in general. Obviously I have a pretty good idea of what general sf/f he should read, but it's the feminist sf/f that's the problem. I'd be grateful for two or three recommendations which you think summarize the position of feminist sf today. It's a difficult choice because the books must be enjoyable as well as "educational" and should contain _little_sex (that's to spare my feelings, not his). To give you an idea, I've started him off on Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's landing". AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:48:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: Reading suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/16/98 2:44:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: << I'd be grateful for two or three recommendations which you think summarize the position of feminist sf today. >> Sheri S. Tepper's "The Gate to Women's Country!" Can you tell I like the book?! It's got Warriors, strong women, mystery and a really great plot twist at the end. I would strongly recommend it to a woman or a man! Karina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Trends at cons/Book suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > And interestingly, this seems to be SF convention particular. At least, as > opposed to mystery conventions. EG. At Left Coast Crime in San Diego in > Feb., there were about 22 dealer tables: one held non book/print items. At > WesterCon in San Diego in July, out of 28 dealers, 5 dealt in books. > > Anyone know about Romance conventions? I've only been an invited guest at one romance convention, but at that one they went out of their way to sell books. They had one long table (actually, many tables put together) staffed by book sellers from the area, supported by posters made out of articles published in local newspapers about the authors scheduled to appear at the convention. Instead of a dealer's room, they set the table up in the lobby of the convention center. There was, as far as I could tell, no equivalent of gaming or nonliterary dealers. Romance seems to be an almost purely a literary genre. Every time someone walked to a panel, they passed the mega-dealer's table. In addition, several group signings were held in the convention room right next to the table, so fans could buy the books from the authors they had been listening too, then come up to talk to us. As a result, I seemed to sell a lot more books at that convention that at a typical sf con, despite it being an audience less likely to be interested in my books than science fiction and fantasy readers. ---- As I was writing the above, and reading the many excellent book suggestions made here for new readers of our genre, it occurred to me this is a good place to get suggestions for a list I'm putting together. I'm trying to find good science fiction/fantasy to counter the lousy opinion many romance readers have of our genre, science fiction in particular. They see it as unfriendly to women, sexist, concerned with gadgets above people, and wooden. I'd like to put together some suggestions to show that our genre =isn't= all like that. If you all could offer suggestions, for both science fiction and fantasy, that would help a great deal. Also, if people could fill in the gaps for the titles I've so far collected (and correct misspellings) that would be great. Other authors on the list, please don't feel shy about recommending your own stories! What romance readers look for are the following: 1) A story that values, and rewards, the female perspective on life. This is a must. 2) A good love story that reaffirms the ability of people to achieve success in relationships, with respect for a woman's view on what qualifies as success. This doesn't mean an unrealistic view of love or marriage: quite the contrary, actually--with a perfect relationship, the story has less effective tension. Romance readers look for a portrayal of people dealing with problems, all that "messy emotional" business that science fiction has a reputation for avoiding. A corollary to "success in relationships" is that the lovers survive in the end. Romeo and Juliet is romantic, but it isn't a romance. In romance, they would have lived, with the second half of the story delving into how they dealt with the social, political, and emotional situation set-up by their marriage. 3) Good romance is often (though not necessarily) social commentary, eg, Mary Jo Putney's THE RAKE or ONE PERFECT ROSE. Putney's work is excellent, by the way. Imagine Masterpiece Theatre at its best. 4) The character in the role of love-interest should have appeal. Of course, how people define "appeal" varies immensely, but there needs to be a reasonably good possibility readers will believe the main character loves the love-interest, whether the characters are from the future, the past, here, on another planet, in another dimension, heterosexual, gay, older, younger, May-December in either direction (younger woman-older man, or older woman-younger man), rich, poor, mixed background, mixed cultures, or any other situation. The author needs to convince the reader on an emotional level. 5) Romance values, and often explicitly deals with, issues of honor, dignity, and loyalty. The most successful romances show characters, both female or male, who embody or achieve those characteristics. A classic example is THIS IS ALL I ASK, by Lynn Kurland. A corollary of this, of course, is that romance takes for granted that women have these qualities. One reason romance readers have told me they don't like science fiction is because they felt that the characterizations in the sf books they had read often portrayed women as having less honor than men. --- What I have so far: Short fiction: "Forgiveness Day," by Ursula Le Guin, possibly one of the best science fiction romances ever written. It won the Sturgeon Award, and I believe it also either won the Tiptree or was on the short list (does anyone know?). I can't remember if it won the Nebula too. Published in Asimov's, ?month, ?year. "The Wild Ships of Fairny," by Carolyn Ives Gilman. One of my all time favorite stories from F&SF. I'm not sure if it is fantasy or science fiction, but it's great either way. Published in F&SF, ?month, ?year. "United Powers," by Kathleen Massey-?. It appeared recently in MZB's Fantasy Magazine and was on the Nebula preliminary ballot. Published ?month, 1997 ?. "Yagara," by ?. Published in Asimov's, ?month, ?year. This is a story where the lovers split up in the end, but it is so well written, I've included it. Also, it pushes the envelope of "traditional" romance. Books: Sharon Shinn's novels: ARCHANGEL JOVAH'S ANGEL THE ALLELUIA FILES. JARAN, by Kate Elliott. SNOW QUEEN by ??? Is it Joan De Vinge? THE WHITE RAVEN, by Diana Paxson. THE MOON AND THE SUN, by Vonda McIntyre. THE GOLDEN KEY, by Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, and Kate Elliott. The two Lois McMaster Bujold books, SHARDS OF HONOR and BARRAYAR, about Cordelia and Aral, the parents of Miles. Isn't it possible now to get both books together, as one book? CORDELIA'S HONOR? How about Marion Zimmer Bradley? I remember much liking MZB's Darkover novels, which I read about 15-20 years ago. Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffrey? I haven't read much of their work, but I know they have crossed over to science fiction romance readers. I thought also of Tanith Lee's THE SILVER METAL LOVER. I'm not sure, though, because of the ending, where the silver-metal man is destroyed. In a romance, the lovers would have escaped, with a continuation of the story, or a sequel, about how they dealt with the intriguing problems they would encounter in such an unusual relationship. More suggestions? Best regards Catherine http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:21:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >> I believe that first you should look at the period you wish to set the book in and then research that period in history. Karen and everyone else who responded: Thanks for all your suggestions. Actually, the book is set about a generation into the future, so this *is* my research, since I don't normally hang out with Dianic Wiccans, or Pagans, etc. I have read quite a bit of the literature, but since culture, aided and abetted by the Internet, is changing so rapidly these days, I just thought I'd take an informal up-to-date poll. I suspect that best suggestion is just to make something up. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:28:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Pagan is the generic word. Specific branches of Paganism are Wicca, Church of All Worlds, Asatru, Faerie and a whole bunch of others. Stacy-- I just don't like the term "pagan" because it historically was not a definition of a specific religion, it was the definition of what a religion wasn't--Christian. Taking the term back from the Christians with a modern, non-pejorative definition is like gays taking back the term "queer" for their own use; but both somehow still leave a weird taste in the mouth of this heterosexual, atheistic person, and so I avoid using them. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG MOA chocolate cake In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jul 98 09:33:43 PDT." <001101bdb0d7$80004340$cd8dfbd0@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Here's Gwenhwyfar dying, or at least suffering, for a great big hunk of that >Turtle cake, but saying "Oh, don't worry about me, I'm just fine here with >my corn flakes." On the other hand there's Morgause. She's so busy >gobbling up those stale doughnuts she's had lying around the castle for the >past week that if you presented her with the Turtle cake she'd be so sated >she wouldn't get the full flavor even if she ate half the cake. Morgaine >is saying "For Goddess sake, Gwenhwyfar, eat the cake!" This is a charming and vivid metaphor but again I'm not sure it's truly applicable. I'd agree that this is probably how Morgaine sees it; but since I'm sure it's not how Morgause sees it, we're back to one group of people telling all women what is and what is not acceptable sexuality. What makes Lancelot Turtle cake, while all of Morgause's lovers are stale donuts? Is it that Gwenhwyfar is In Love (TM) while Morgause is just having a good time? Is it that we think Lancelot is a Good Person while Morgause's lovers are not? Nothing but the lens of Morgaine's perception shows us why Gwenhwyfar's desire is more valid than Morgause's. What if Lancelot's a thoughtless, mediocre lover and Morgause has found the ten best men in bed out of the entire population? Who's eating donuts now? (I really do like this metaphor, I'm not just trying to make fun of it.) I do agree with whoever said that Morgause's ethics were appalling and that her behavior towards other people was horrible. But it seems to me that (a) her sexual behavior was not necessarily bad in any objective way and (b) her sexuality was *supposed* to show her as a bad character, which would be a deliberate (and, to me, offensive) choice on the part of the author. There are certainly times when sexual behavior can be objectively bad: when it's for the purpose of hurting someone; when it's used to force someone to do something they don't want to do, or trick them into it; when it's demeaning or degrading. But I don't think Morgause does those things; and so I particularly resent the fact that her sexuality is used to show bad character (IMO). jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:39:48 CDT Reply-To: a-quick@carthage.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Quick Subject: Re: Reading suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Regarding Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's Landing" as a good introduction to feminist s/f: have you read the second book in the series yet? It develops in some pretty un-feminist ways. Specifically, women on the colony of Botany are _required_ to bear children for the sake of genetic diversity. Not required to raise them - cooperative day care being provided - having the choice of father, to be sure - but nonetheless not having the choice of _not_ having children. The protagonist Kris Bjornsen balks at this requirement. She ends up becoming pregnant by an acquaintence when both are falling-down drunk. The amusement and teasing she receives from other characters, supposedly her freinds, when she discovers and is upset by this pregnancy actually made me cry. What ever happened to "my body, my choice?" So, while Kris is undoubtedly a strong female character, women's input is valued on Botany, the logistics of daily life seem to reflect gender equality, and sexist/harassing males are ridiculed and punished, I have reservations about labeling the "Freedom" books feminist. ------------- Original Text From: "Anthea" , on 7/16/98 1:49 PM: To date the reading suggestions discussed have been for youngsters. I have a different problem: a reading list for someone whom I'm pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which WON'T put him off the genre. He's a man of 31 who (a) has only read a limited amount of SF/F and that generally of the "space opera"/"fantasy opera" variety AND (b) has little sympathy for/antipathy towards feminism or the women's movement in general. Obviously I have a pretty good idea of what general sf/f he should read, but it's the feminist sf/f that's the problem. I'd be grateful for two or three recommendations which you think summarize the position of feminist sf today. It's a difficult choice because the books must be enjoyable as well as "educational" and should contain _little_sex (that's to spare my feelings, not his). To give you an idea, I've started him off on Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's landing". AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:46:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <35ACDCC5.753CE33D@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It seems to me that all religions have a bad habit of trying to proscribe humans' sexual behavior, one way or another. I personally think that it's just a way of religious leaders to secure control over their followers. If people have to consult a priest or priestess to know what is the "right", "spiritual" attitude towards sexuality, they are more likely to become dependent on those advices and get more motivated to financially support the religious institution. Since the church (any) cannot collect taxes, the only way its officials can provide for themselves is to convince their followers in the vital necessity of their "spiritual quidance" in matters of birth, death, and procreation. Since births and deaths do not happen that often in the lives of most of the people, "spiritually guiding" their sex lives is the best way to exercise control over the lives of individuals. So they would not accidentally start making decisions about these things on their own and cut down on the donations to their "spiritual leaders". In my humble opinion, every person's body and sexuality belongs to him/her. And every person has a right to decide whether they want sex to be a form of worship, an expression of love, a way to meet people, or all of the above depending on the circumstances. The only role of sex that can be harmful to the spiritual condition of the society is when it is used for violence and humiliation. In all other cases, it's none of the society's business, and even less so of the church, Christian or Goddess-worshipping alike. Sex is a physical function of a body, the same as eating or sleeping. You can make the act of eating into some worship-like experience, too(think diets), assign to it some earth-shaking meaning (e.g. if you work with women, try going around with a box of chocolate candies. They will act like you offer them crack or something: "Oh, this is so bad for you!"), or act in some other exalted fashion towards it. But for some people eating is just something they do and never think about twice. The same is for sex. If someone want to turn sex (or eating, or using bathroom) into a form of spiritual bonding with the universe, they are welcome to do so. However, it does not mean everyone has to feel that way. I think that organized religions should stay away from people's sex lives just the same as they should be kept away from the government. Spiritual advisers are only humans who assign themselves the authority of Gods, and that never comes to anything good. Just my opinion. Marina On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Julieanne wrote: > Pat wrote: > > > But it's Marion's universe and once in in, you play by Marion's > > rules. Sex as a sacred bonding is a huge advance over the attitudes of > > the period she and I grew up in. Sex for casual pleasure is post-Pill and > > still to us elders carries overtones of paradise for men, a jungle full > > of traps & pitfalls for women. > > > > > This all assumes that sex IS about bonding, power and spiritual truth. A > > > lot of people simply don't view it that way, and why should they have to? > > > Sexual activity, as many areas of life, doesn't have much of an inherent > > > meaning -- the meaning is in what the participants bring to it. If an > > > individual's viewpoint is that sex is about transient physical pleasure and > > > no more, why not leave that person be as long as they inflict no harm upon > > > others? The Avalon take on sexuality seems hardly better than the Christian > > > to me -- the decisionmaking is still up to "the authorities" instead of the > > > individual and pleasure is deferred in favor of duty. There are more than > > > these two ways to live, thank Peep. > > > > > > * Peep, the yellow genderless marshmallow god > > > > I do not see a major difference, with seeing sexuality as being about "transient > physical pleasure and nothing more", and sexuality being about "bonding" and/or > "spirituality".The former implies that the importance of an individual's (or at > most a 'pair') pleasures, desires, and 'rights' override that of the community's > values, which is still a "spiritual" value system, just not in the traditional > sense. Its spirituality honours the "individual" over all others....and is very > characteristic of the "Me-first" generation. > Its also encouraged by popular media and culture, especially in the western world > - which commercialises sexuality as yet another consumer commodity, telling us > all constantly that we will suffer enormous psychological or health problems, if > our 'sex-life' isn't satisfactory. The great "Holy Orgasm" has become quite a > spiritual icon of the late 20th Century. For example, look at the recent sales > figures for the impotence treatment drug Viagra. The message is quite blatant - > you can't have a "full life" without a "full sex-life". Commercialising > sexuality into an idealised form of spiritual narcissism, is also a very > effective mechanism for preventing people from 'bonding' in large numbers. While > people are focussed on getting laid, or depressed about not getting laid, or > whether their genitals are functioning 'normally' (whatever that is, the > bench-marks and goalposts keep changing:), they aren't thinking about political > activism, or rebellion, or even just bonding in a larger community with common > interests. Another form of the classic Divide-and-Conquer tactic. People who > think of sexuality as just like anything else, and just a pleasant form of > transient pleasure, are paying "homage" or "honour" to the "higher authorities" > who preach a religion of "the Supreme Holy Multi-Orgasmic Individual" - just as > much as the women in Mists of Avalon expressed their sexuality in "homage" and > "honour" to the Goddess of Nature and married the Land, instead of an individual > man. > > MZB states that part of her research for MOA included conversations with > modern-day pagans and Wiccans. One anecdote I have, in a similar fashion, was > speaking to a lady Wiccan who told me that their view of sexuality was that it > was the most "Sacred" expression of the "Life-Force" - because no matter how much > sex is *divorced* from reproduction by technology, culture or personal practises > - it remains powerfully symbolic as the ultimate creative act - the creation of > 'Life' itself - as well as a powerful "celebration" of Life itself - in honour of > its "potential" to create Life. Whether or not a child is created, or even if a > child is consciously and actively prevented from being conceived, or even > homosexual sexual behaviour ( amongst women interestingly, but not men) the > Sex-Act itself still remains an expression and celebration of that *potential*. > > And the sharing of the experience is then perceived as "Sharing" the > Life-Force. According to my friend's particular branch of Wiccan belief-systems - > perverting sexuality was the Ultimate Evil or "Ultimate Sacrilege of being > anti-Life itself", or even anti-Creation. Rape and pedophilia would carry > immediate death-sentences, and were considered much worse crimes than murder or > manslaughter, abortion or infanticide, or leaving old, sick or disabled people to > die, because to care for them would endanger the entire group's survival. > > In particular, adults who sexually abuse children, are considered as "attacking" > or engaging in "wilful destruction" of the "Life-Force" in the young of your > own species. A "species" attack - and as such, the perpetrators of such a crime > were seen as 'abominations' or 'mis-borns' and would not be tolerated in any way, > shape or form, and immediate execution would be performed. Like a rabid dog. > Often the bodies of such perpetrators, would be dismembered and burned and > scattered over rock, so no part of their corpse (or as little as possible) could > "foul" the "Land" which was the "womb" of all species on Earth. > > In accordance with this view of the "sacred value" placed on sexuality, treating > it as a 'transitory' pleasure for instant self-gratification, is seen as > childish and immature. Like a small child, who stamps their foot and demands that > they "want a cookie, and want it NOW!" - we teach our children to wait for > important things, to wait for those "special treats", to have everything you > want, when you want it, decreases its value. In some isolated cultures, a common > practice is for adults to strongly encourage sex-play amongst children within > their age peer group. As they approach puberty and adolescence, they are taught, > amongst other things, about "adult responsibility and obligations" with regards > to their sexuality - only children are allowed to consider sex as "play". Being > careless, irresponsible and disrespectful of your own sexuality, is being > careless, irresponsible, and disrespectful of your Self, of other people, and of > "Life" or "Creation" itself. This was why Morgause was not respected by the > others at Avalon. > > Similarly, in the Goddess-based religion, sexual activity was often ritualised, > where at Beltaine for example, people could experience it as truly sharing their > own "Life-Force" with that of another person, in awe and wonder, laughter and > exultation, in honour and celebration of being part of the Creation of all Life > on Earth, not just their own. Maybe there's some truth in the vision of the > "Earth Moving" during a particularly memorable sex act. :-)) > > Sexuality is incredibly important to the human race; regardless of how we might > reproduce ourselves by artifical means, now, or in the future. Every religion, > and ruling-class ideology, since the Year Dot has sought to control it somehow, > including our own with its message of liberalism and commercialism and its > "playful meaninglessness". Sexuality is at the "central core" of every human > being's psyche, soul or personality. Children in particular, and adults of > either gender, who have been sexually abused, suffer the severest forms of > psychological trauma. Attack the sexuality, and you attack the 'life-force' of a > person, far more effectively than just holding a knife at their throat, or > chopping off their toes. Control their sexuality by whatever means, e.g. > religion, law, force, fear, propaganda, etc and you control entire populations. > Like bribing children with pacifiers, sweets or cookies to keep them quiet, our > culture often bribes us with the 'sexual sell' to keep us quiet, happy and in our > beds. The more sex you have, the more 'potent' you think you are - like the > words of the song, -WorkingClass Hero-, they "keep you doped to the eyeballs, > with religion, and sex and TV". > > > Julieanne:) > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:49:36 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Reading suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit How about David Weber's Honor Harrington series... appeals to both women and men. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patrick Boily Subject: Re: Reading suggestions Comments: To: Anthea In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Allo. Re: > [...] pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which > WON'T put him off the genre [...] What about "Native Tongue", by Suzette Haden Halgin, and "Prime Inversion" by Catherine Asaro ? The former reminded me a bit of "The Handmaid's Tale", and it had interesting discussions about the power of language. The latter was very enjoyable, with certain space-opera qualities, I don't think anyone would be put off by it, ... (mind you, it might not be considered to be feminist science-fiction novel, so ...) Well. But they are not your typical sf, and they definitely have strong female and male characters,,, Good read, -- Patrick Boily ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:16:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Religions, pagan & otherwise & sex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A previous post mentioned that no church can collect taxes. Wrong. In states with established churches (mostly Europe) they can & do, or the government does it for them. For a look at what might happen if a Goddess religion got co-opted by the government, real L. Neil Smith's RAINBOW CADENZA. Feminist? The culture is hideously anti-feminist. The heroine escapes and thumbs her nose at it. Call it a Horrible Example - and not in the usual sense. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Pagan/Profane (was BDG MOA sexuality ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was disconcerted to see the Greek classics described as "profane" in "Tom Brown's Schooldays"; it was a while before I caught on that the author was using the word opposed to "sacred", rather than today's common usage. Off topic, but it does relate to SF and attitudes to religious variations: has anyone else giggled his/her/its head off over Terry Pratchett's take on Tom Brown/Little Arthur in "Pyramids"? (Catweasel has, I expect!) And William Brown as the potential Antichrist in "Good Omens" was sheer joy. On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:28:58 -0400 Debra Euler writes: >>>Pagan is the generic word. Specific branches of Paganism are Wicca, >Church >of All Worlds, Asatru, Faerie and a whole bunch of others. > >Stacy-- > >I just don't like the term "pagan" because it historically was not a >definition of a specific religion, it was the definition of what a >religion wasn't--Christian. Taking the term back from the Christians >with a modern, non-pejorative definition is like gays taking back the >term "queer" for their own use; but both somehow still leave a weird >taste in the mouth of this heterosexual, atheistic person, and so I >avoid using them. > >Debra > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:23:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Reading suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to clarify: it's Suzette Haden Elgin, not Halgin I personally myself am very fond indeed of Native Tongue, and I'd be curious as to his reactions if he did read it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:41:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephanie Jackson Subject: Re: Trends at cons/Book suggestions Comments: To: asaro@sff.net In-Reply-To: <35AE50FA.3047@sff.net> from "Catherine Asaro" at Jul 16, 98 03:22:40 pm Content-Type: text > Books: > > Sharon Shinn's novels: > ARCHANGEL > JOVAH'S ANGEL > THE ALLELUIA FILES. > JARAN, by Kate Elliott. > SNOW QUEEN by ??? Is it Joan De Vinge? It's Joan D. Vinge, and the sequel the Summer Queen is excellent too, and deals heavily with romance. > THE WHITE RAVEN, by Diana Paxson. > THE MOON AND THE SUN, by Vonda McIntyre. > THE GOLDEN KEY, by Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, and Kate Elliott. > > The two Lois McMaster Bujold books, SHARDS OF HONOR and BARRAYAR, about > Cordelia and Aral, the parents of Miles. Isn't it possible now to get > both books together, as one book? CORDELIA'S HONOR? > > How about Marion Zimmer Bradley? I remember much liking MZB's Darkover > novels, which I read about 15-20 years ago. > > Mercedes Lackey and Anne McCaffrey? I haven't read much of their work, > but I know they have crossed over to science fiction romance readers. > Anne McCaffrey's book Dragonflight also has some romance aspects to it. -The usually lurking Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NESchaadt Subject: OT: Romance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Catherine Asaro brought up a fascinating corollary discussion. While recommending sf and fantasy to romance readers perhaps someone can recommend intelligent, relevant, you-go-girl romance? Any recommendations beyond Mary Jo Putney's THE RAKE or ONE PERFECT ROSE? NS (who admits to enjoying the following non sf or fantasy writers in no specific order: Isabel Allende, Kathleen O'Neal-Gear and that man she married ;) Jane Austen, Tami Hoag, Patricia Cornwall) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:58:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: OT: Romance In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980716153552.006c5a70@mailhost.waymark.net> from "NESchaadt" at Jul 16, 98 03:35:52 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sic scribit NESchaadt: > > Catherine Asaro brought up a fascinating corollary discussion. While > recommending sf and fantasy to romance readers perhaps someone can > recommend intelligent, relevant, you-go-girl romance? Any recommendations > beyond Mary Jo Putney's THE RAKE or ONE PERFECT ROSE? > > NS > (who admits to enjoying the following non sf or fantasy writers in no > specific order: Isabel Allende, Kathleen O'Neal-Gear and that man she > married ;) Jane Austen, Tami Hoag, Patricia Cornwall) > I'm going to add an additional question about romances. I've recently run across a romance anthology entitled, *Faery Magic* (?). Mary Jo Putney is one of the contributors, and a glance at the volume shows that the authors chose to go to actual folklore to set up their love stories. Last night at Borders, I realized that there's actually a burgeoning subgenre of fantasy romances (saw one about a selkie). What's going on here, besides growing a new market category for the publishers? :) Best, Rob P. S. The summer women's SF course is going well. Reading *Female Man* for next Monday. Had some great student essays on Catherine Moore's "No Woman Born." -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Garden shrugged. "I see no reason to give the Heroes priority. The world is a One Twist Ring: we affect the Mist, the Mist affects the real world. Stories from one get told in the other." - Sean Stewart, _Clouds End_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:14:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Reading suggestions -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain For goodness sake, hand him Lois McMaster Bujold's SHARDS OF HONOR AND BARRAYAR immediately! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:51:05 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Trends at cons/Book suggestions Comments: To: asaro@sff.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit << "Yagara," by ?. Published in Asimov's, ?month, ?year. This is a story where the lovers split up in the end, but it is so well written, I've included it. Also, it pushes the envelope of "traditional" romance. >> That's "Yaguara," a novella first published in Ellen Datlow's LITTLE DEATHS in the UK in 1994. Asimov's was the first US printing, March 1995. I'm intrigued by the idea that I've written a romance . Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:54:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Book suggestions - Romance? In-Reply-To: <35AE50FA.3047@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 16/07/98 20:22:40 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed Catherine Asaro , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > I'm trying to find good science fiction/fantasy to counter the lousy > opinion many romance readers have of our genre, science fiction in > particular. They see it as unfriendly to women, sexist, concerned with > gadgets above people, and wooden. I'd like to put together some > suggestions to show that our genre =isn't= all like that. This is not going to be particularly helpful in its own right, but someone else may recognise the book to which I am about to allude. Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey edited a shared universe series called Thieves' World. Each of the 12 books was a collection of shorts by various authors, ranging from newcomers like grandmother Christine DeWees to masters like Poul Anderson and Marion Bradley. Oh, and someone one or two of you may have heard of, Vonda McIntyre. An excellent series, and a fascinating environment. I know, I've run campaigns set in Sanctuary. Anyway, some of the contributors went on to write novels featuring their Thieves' World characters. One of these novels, I am reasonably certain, meets your criteria. Which author or which character I am afraid I can't remember. I said I wasn't going to be terribly helpful. Even if I am completely wrong the series and spin-offs warrant investigation. I think I could even recommend them for younger readers. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Don't bother pressing that key, there is no esc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:54:02 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Help wanted - of a different sort MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have not participated in this list much over the last few months. This has been in part due to hectic scheduling, but mainly due to my eyesight. So how the hell is it writing to us, you may ask. Easy. The monitor sits about 6 feet away from me, and I make a lot of corrections because I can't see the keyboard clearly. I _can_ read with glasses, but for some reason I can't do so for long periods. The last Pratchett I read took over 2 days, the first a few hours. I have been unable to follow many of the discussions here because even if I were able to find and afford the books it would take me weeks or months to read them. The current and last BDG titles, for instance. I read "Mists of Avalon" years ago, and all I really remember is that I enjoyed it as much as "The Once and Future King." I have never read "Dreamsnake," but judging by the discussion I ought to. I will buy "Dreamsnake" when I run across it, but it will have to join an ever growing pile. Maybe in a couple more years my eyes will settle so I can get used to my glasses. I love reading, and have been known to devour a dozen in a week. My tastes are catholic. All I have ever asked of a book is that it entertain or teach me. If anyone cares to take pity on an ever more decrepit Catweasel I would be most grateful for books I can actually read. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org I like rhetorical questions - I usually get them right. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:20:15 -0400 Reply-To: Anne Vespry Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Romantic SF/F [Was Re: [*FSFFU*] Trends at cons/Book suggestions] Comments: To: Catherine Asaro In-Reply-To: <35AE50FA.3047@sff.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Catherine Asaro wrote: > I'm trying to find good science fiction/fantasy to counter the lousy > opinion many romance readers have of our genre, science fiction in > particular. They see it as unfriendly to women, sexist, concerned with > gadgets above people, and wooden. I'd like to put together some > suggestions to show that our genre =isn't= all like that. Interestingly, most of the best romantic SF/F I can think of is more on the Fantasy side of things.... Emma Bull's _War for the Oaks_ contains one of the best descriptions of being in love that I've ever read, and works as a romance novel as well as excellent fantasy. Robin McKinley's books -- all of them, but especially _The Blue Sword_ and _Deerskin_ and the two Beauty & the Beast retellings. Tamora Pierce's _Alanna_ and _Immortals_ (both tetralogies that start with young protagonists who end up -- among other things -- finding the men of their dreams.) Tanya Huff's _The Fire Stone_ (gay male protagonists) SM Stirling and Shirley Meier's _Saber and Shadow_ (lesbian protagonists and a great deal of somewhat gory swashbuckling) Gael Baudino's _Gossamer Axe_ (also lesbian/bisexual protagonists) Joe Haldeman's _Forever War_ pretty romantic for futuristic anti-war allegory, the lead character is male, but there are several strong female roles. and, Diane Duane's _Door into Fire_, _Door into Shadow_, _Door into Sunset_ series are the ones that come to mind... Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:23:43 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ildiko Paulovitch Subject: Re: Book suggestions - Romance? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I believe you are referring to "Lythande" by none other than MZB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:30:34 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Reading suggestions for a 31 yo male friend... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well, until you got to little or no sex passage, the first writer who came to mind to hook an unsympathetic buddy on profeminist sf was John Varley, more for his short stories than his novels, though I notice that his novels are stocked in the Lesbian/Feminist section of Philadelphia's l&g bookstore alongside the Rachel Pollack, MZB, and Karen Minns books. But the short stories and novellas were a revelation to me back in the "golden age" ("The Persistence of Vision" headlined the first issue of F&SF I bought, March 1978, when I was 13), back before I was likely to be troubled by the tendency in some of his stories for middle-aged men to be involved with wise pubescent young women. But Joanna Russ was moved to note of his work at this time that some of his observations and details regarding the (by no means exclusively pubescent) women characters in his stories were remarkable, for a male writer. THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION, the first collection, blew my doors off. But for some less sexually-explicit material, how about Kate Wilhelm? Would DEATH QUALIFIED or WELCOME, CHAOS do? (Of course, there's a strong undercurrent of easily-misinterpreted satire in the latter, and some sexual themes...) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:35:20 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Trends at cons/Book suggestions Comments: To: asaro@sff.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Perhaps the relative youth of crime and romance fictions' organized fandoms has some bearing on the nature of the dealers' tables. SF (as in sf/fantasy/horror) fandom has been around so long that associational fandoms have grown out of it, other subcultures have crosspollinated with it, and, in fact, I suspect that the people who pioneered organized crime fiction fandom in the latter '60s and romance conventions (beginning in the early '80s?) came out of SF fandom, in large part (certainly they were inspired by them). So, conventioneers at SF cons aren't nearly as likely to be primarily literary as the folks at Malice Domestic or Bouchercon or romance cons (did the Heyer Teas at sf conventions play a role in bringing about an organized romance fandom?). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:04:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: SF/F & Romance Book suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To C. Asaro: Three fantasy recommendations: The Wood Wife - Terry Windling Through A Brazen Mirror - Delia Sherman The Spirit Ring - Lois McMaster Bujold donna ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 04:06:54 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: Book suggestions - Romance? In-Reply-To: <3584e0e9.35aea7a4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 17/07/98 02:23:43 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed Ildiko Paulovitch , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > I believe you are referring to "Lythande" by none other than MZB I fell in love with the Blue Star Mage on first introduction. I find a lot of Bradley's characters are people I wish I could meet and get to know better. Lythande is not really a likely candidate for Romance. His secret pretty much precludes that. Besides, the book is a collection of shorts, whereas the book I had in mind was a novel. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:09:13 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Romance sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well, WELCOME CHAOS by Kate WIlhelm features what I take to be satire of romance fiction cliches, mocking the "strong" condescending male lead of supermarket gothics, at least. The novel was sprung from the novella "The Winter Beach" if I remember correctly, which in its turn was originally published in REDBOOK or one of its competitors (and collected with another novella in LISTEN, LISTEN). I would certainly be interested in what romance readers would have to say about the novel or the novella. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:10:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Reading suggestions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anthea wrote: >To date the reading suggestions discussed have been for >youngsters. I have a different problem: a reading list for someone >whom I'm pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which >WON'T put him off the genre. And in reply, Patrick Boily wrote: >What about "Native Tongue", by Suzette Haden Halgin [Elgin] Good god! This is the last book I would recommend to a man leery of feminism. I was downright offended by the straw men Elgin set up as her sexist villains, and I'm a militant feminist. I can only imagine how he might react. I suggest: *Four Ways to Forgiveness* by Ursula K. Le Guin (particularly "A Woman's Liberation") *Woman on the Edge of Time* by Marge Piercy *Ammonite* or *Slow River* by Nicola Griffith *The Clewiston Test* by Kate Wilhelm *The Adventures of Alyx* by Joanna Russ ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:30:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Trends at cons/Book suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Catherine Asaro wrote: > I'm trying to find good science fiction/fantasy to counter the lousy > opinion many romance readers have of our genre, science fiction in > particular. They see it as unfriendly to women, sexist, concerned with > gadgets above people, and wooden. I'd like to put together some > suggestions to show that our genre =isn't= all like that. *War for the Oaks* by Emma Bull -- this book has one of the most riveting romances of any I've read. I brought the book with me to an art gallery opening once and spent almost all my time on the couch reading. *Swordspoint* by Ellen Kushner -- the two main characters are men, but the book is woman-friendly. *Ring of Swords* by Eleanor Arnason -- I found the relationship between the exiled human Nicholas and the Hwarhath Ettin Gwarha quite romantic. I quite agree with your choices of "Forgiveness Day" by Le Guin and Joan Vinge's *Snow Queen*, but once again I have to dis-recommend Anne McCaffrey due to the recurrent rape imagery that I quoted a few days ago. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:02:06 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort In-Reply-To: <35AE929A1E.AE31CATWEASEL@outmail1.cableinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If anyone cares to take pity on an ever more decrepit Catweasel I would > be most grateful for books I can actually read. As is often the case, I have been about as clear as mud. I have received two letters with suggestions which are inappropriate to my situation. In a good light I can read something 5 feet away that is a blur at arm's length. Not really very satisfactory. The only thing I can read comfortably is my monitor. I have come to rely more and more on my computer for reading, but this means that I wind up reading a lot of stuff simply because I can rather than because I want to. The Gutenberg Project is a help, but little of what I really want to read is old enough to be included. I enjoy erotica, but I soon realised that one of the first things every illiterate half-wit male virgin with a modem discovers is how to share his puerile fantasy with the rest of the world. Many books discussed on this list are either in my "to read" pile or on my "to find" list, but not one of them is on my computer. It's very late and I'm tired. If I haven't made myself clear by now then I probably don't deserve your help. Good night. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Bad command or file name. Go stand in the corner. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:18:52 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: Trends at cons/Book suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'd have to agree with th suggestion of Mercedes Lackey for the Romance lovers. Mary-Ellen Crystal Mist Glass Carving Guffey, CO ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:48:07 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Trends at cons/Book suggestions In-Reply-To: <35AE50FA.3047@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jul 98 Catherine Asaro wrote: > I'm trying to find good science fiction/fantasy to counter the lousy > opinion many romance readers have of our genre, science fiction in > particular. They see it as unfriendly to women, sexist, concerned > with gadgets above people, and wooden. I'd like to put together > some suggestions to show that our genre =isn't= all like that. My recommendations are Susan Dexter: The Prince of Ill Luck Barbara Hambly: the trilogy around Antryg Windrose (The Silent Tower, The Silicon Mage, Dog Wizard) and the follow-up about Kira (title?) Doris Egan: the Ivory trilogy, especially the first book _The Ivory Tower_ Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:51:40 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG: Next book scheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Somebody asked yesterday about the next book discussed in the book discussion group. It is _Alien Influences_ by Kristine Kathryn Rusch. The discussion starts on 3 August. The further schedule of the BDG can be looked up at the website: http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/ Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:22:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kathleen Subject: Re: Romantic SF/F [Was Re: [*FSFFU*] Trends at cons/Book suggestions] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, all - Tanith Lee? The Silver Metal Lover? A witty, three-hanky page-turner as romantic as it gets. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 06:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Help wanted. Is this what you mean? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catweasel, >As is often the case, I have been about as clear as mud........The only >thing I can read comfortably is my monitor. I have come to rely more and >more on my computer for reading,> Is this what you mean? I am not finding entire books but lots of stories. An archive site of SF/F stories http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/iplus/ Here is the 'courtyard' for Alexlit.com An online repository of stories submitted by authors for readers to purchase and download. Download prices are generally well under a dollar. You have to 'register' but there are no charges to surf the site. http://web.alexlit.com/Courtyard.idc?hallpass=visitor Analog and Asimovs offer award nominated stories for reading at their sites: http://www.sfsite.com/analog/hugo/nominees.htm http://www.sfsite.com/asimovs/hugo/nominees.htm This is not SF, but is one of the first entire books offered for online reading that also was published for sale. It is a non-fiction work on the history of the net. Quite good I thought. http://nyupress.nyu.edu/netwars/intro/intro.html And finally, I will put in a plug for Hypertext fiction. Yes, it must be purchased like a book, but it will come on a disk and can be read on a computer. A fascinating field itself and some of the work is quite good and it really disrupts our reading assumptions. Eastgate is the hypertext publishing leader. http://www.eastgate.com any help? donna ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Help wanted - of a different sort -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_B6E2210C.197816BF" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_B6E2210C.197816BF Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Catweasal, have you checked out the Talking Book Problem of the Library of Congress. Over the past 9 years, I've nudged them enough that they now record some decent SF and fantasy. If you're interested, send me your address and I'll give you the contact info for the Regional Library that serves your area. >>> Catweasel 07/16 6:54 pm >>> I have not participated in this list much over the last few months. This has been in part due to hectic scheduling, but mainly due to my eyesight. So how the hell is it writing to us, you may ask. Easy. The monitor sits about 6 feet away from me, and I make a lot of corrections because I can't see the keyboard clearly. I _can_ read with glasses, but for some reason I can't do so for long periods. The last Pratchett I read took over 2 days, the first a few hours. I have been unable to follow many of the discussions here because even if I were able to find and afford the books it would take me weeks or months to read them. The current and last BDG titles, for instance. I read "Mists of Avalon" years ago, and all I really remember is that I enjoyed it as much as "The Once and Future King." I have never read "Dreamsnake," but judging by the discussion I ought to. I will buy "Dreamsnake" when I run across it, but it will have to join an ever growing pile. Maybe in a couple more years my eyes will settle so I can get used to my glasses. I love reading, and have been known to devour a dozen in a week. My tastes are catholic. All I have ever asked of a book is that it entertain or teach me. If anyone cares to take pity on an ever more decrepit Catweasel I would be most grateful for books I can actually read. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org I like rhetorical questions - I usually get them right. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:56:45 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-07-17 00:44:40 EDT, you write: << > If anyone cares to take pity on an ever more decrepit Catweasel I would > be most grateful for books I can actually read. >> Jim Freund has a list of SF/F texts available online: http://www.hourwolf.com/sfbooks/sfb2.html Freund also includes his sources, including: Alex, a catalogue of texts online http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/staff/morgan/alex/alex-index.html The Online Books Page http://www.cs.cmu.edu/books.html Omni Magazine's archives also include sf published in the magazine online http://www.omnimag.com/fiction/index.html For erotic a cut above the rest (but no guarantees on all of it) try Domain of Darkness: http://www.domainofdarkness.com/stories_index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:09:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: SF/F & Romance Book suggestions -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Some of these may be reaching, but all are classified as cross-genre romance at our library. Anthony, Piers. _Virtual Mode: the Mode_. Asimov, Isaac. _The Stars, Like Dust_. Bear, Greg. _Moving Mars_. Block, Francesca Lia. _Weetzie Bat_. Bujold, Lois McMaster. _Shards of Honor. Dean, Pamela. _Tam Lin_ Durgin, Doranna. _Dun Lady's Jess_. Goldman, William. _The Princess Bride_. Huff, Tanya. _Blood Trail_; _Blood Price_. Kay, Guy Gavriel. _A Song for Arbonne_. Kerr, Katherine . _Time of Exile_. Klause, Annette. _Blood and Chocolate_; _The Silver Kiss_. Kress, Nancy. _The Prince of Morning Bells. Le Guin, Ursula K. _Malafrena_. Lewis, C.S. _Till We Have Faces: a Myth Retold_. Martin, George R.R. _Dying of the Light_. MacAvoy, R.A. _The Book of Kells_. McCaffrey, Anne. _Lyon's Pride_. McKillip, Patricia. _Winter Rose_. McKinley, Robin. _Beauty_; _Deerskin_; _A Knot in the Grain_. Neville, Katherine. _The Eight_. Pierce, Meredith Ann. _The Darkangel_. Sherman, Josepha. _Windleaf_. Wilhelm, Kate. _Crazy Time_. Willis, Connie. _The Doomsday Book: _Uncharted Territory_. Wrede, Patricia C. _Searching for Dragons_. Yarbro, Chelsea Quinn. _Better in the Dark_. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:12:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_134784AC.096806AF" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=_134784AC.096806AF Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Catweasal, the Talking Book Service of the Library of Congress, which I suggested earlier, is for any US resident and/or citizen living abroad who for any physical reason cannot read normal print. Believe me, you qualify. Let me know if you're interested. Marsha >>> Catweasel 07/16 11:02 pm >>> > If anyone cares to take pity on an ever more decrepit > Catweasel I would be most grateful for books I can actually read. As is often the case, I have been about as clear as mud. I have received two letters with suggestions which are inappropriate to my situation. In a good light I can read something 5 feet away that is a blur at arm's length. Not really very satisfactory. The only thing I can read comfortably is my monitor. I have come to rely more and more on my computer for reading, but this means that I wind up reading a lot of stuff simply because I can rather than because I want to. The Gutenberg Project is a help, but little of what I really want to read is old enough to be included. I enjoy erotica, but I soon realised that one of the first things every illiterate half-wit male virgin with a modem discovers is how to share his puerile fantasy with the rest of the world. Many books discussed on this list are either in my "to read" pile or on my "to find" list, but not one of them is on my computer. It's very late and I'm tired. If I haven't made myself clear by now then I probably don't deserve your help. Good night. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Bad command or file name. Go stand in the corner. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:15:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG MOA sexuality (off topic) -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Debra Euler wrote: > >>Pagan is the generic word. Specific branches of Paganism are Wicca, > Church of All Worlds, Asatru, Faerie and a whole bunch of others. > I just don't like the term "pagan" because it historically was not a > definition of a specific religion, it was the definition of what a > religion wasn't--Christian. True, Pagan was a term used to describe any non-Christian religion. I guess it was better than pointing and saying, "Those people over there who ain't Christian." > Taking the term back from the Christians with a modern, non-pejorative > definition is like gays taking back the term "queer" for their own use; > but both somehow still leave a weird taste in the mouth of this > heterosexual, atheistic person, and so I avoid using them. I just don't find the word Pagan insulting. It was meant that way but it turned out to be a rather handy word. I can't think of another word that fits my religion quite so well. If you want to avoid using the word Pagan then use a specific religion like Druidry. BTW there are a number of people who call themselves Heathens instead of Pagans. > Debra > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:37:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Religions, pagan & otherwise & sex In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Pat wrote: > For a look at what might happen if a Goddess religion got co-opted > by the government, real L. Neil Smith's RAINBOW CADENZA. Feminist? The > culture is hideously anti-feminist. The heroine escapes and thumbs her > nose at it. Call it a Horrible Example - and not in the usual sense. I read *Rainbow Cadenza* over a year ago. It is one of the few books I have read that I still think about. The book was disturbing on many different levels. I can't say if I -liked- the book but it has certainly stuck in my mind longer than many books that I enjoyed. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>the Talking Book Service of the Library of Congress, which I suggested earlier, is for any US resident and/or citizen living abroad who for any physical reason cannot read normal print. Catweasel-- And I know for a fact that they do have at least some SF and/or fantasy, as I've had a very nice man associated with the project call me several times to ask about the specific pronunciation of words in Mercedes Lackey's novels. (To which, BTW, I've always had to say, "I dunno...let me call the author.) Debra ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:45:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becky Hinshaw Subject: Fem Scifi - romance cross over MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII" To. C. Asaro: The books of Elizabeth Moon, esp. the Herris Serrano series (HUNTING PARTY, WINNING COLORS, SPORTING CHANCE and in the same universe ONCE A HERO) might be appealing to a romance reader. They are set in a universe where gender is less an issue than class, age, or wealth, that has an aristocracy and riding to hounds, space ships and horse farms .... a pleasant mix of the familiar and strange, great space opera. The main characters are strong women, the main relationships seem to be the friendships between women of various ages (yet hetero romance shows up too). The stories deal with honor, friendship, and loyalty; ONCE A HERO also deals with repressed memory of rape, and recovery. Not overtly feminist but I think they could fit in a feminist reading list (for the reasons listed above). Becky Hinshaw ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:04:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not really very satisfactory. The >only thing I >can read comfortably is my monitor. >... >Many books discussed on this list are either in my "to read" >pile or on >my "to find" list, but not one of them is on my computer. > > Can you manage a flatbed scanner? They are relatively affordable these days, and you can get a parallel interface if you're not set up for SCSII. Scan in a page and magnify the image to a comfortable size; you wouldn't even need to mess with OCR. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:01:21 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort In-Reply-To: <35AECCBE29E.4362CATWEASEL@outmail1.cableinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Catweasel wrote: > > If anyone cares to take pity on an ever more decrepit Catweasel I would > > be most grateful for books I can actually read. > > As is often the case, I have been about as clear as mud. I have > received two letters with suggestions which are inappropriate to my > situation. In a good light I can read something 5 feet away that is a > blur at arm's length. Not really very satisfactory. The only thing I > can read comfortably is my monitor. Um, one other thing you might try is looking at fanfiction... There are some darn good writers out there, published only online, chronicling the off-screen adventures of their favourite Television or movie characters. I know there's a vast amount of StarTrek, X-files and Xena stuff out there and, if you're interested, I'm sure there are folks who could recommend their favourites... For good fantasy fiction (and, incidentally, good romance) I'd put in a word for, for example Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:06:31 -0600 Reply-To: egarrett@du.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erin Garrett Organization: None Subject: Re: next book? and Tepper; and Speculative Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7DA88723003DC1D984D555D6" --------------7DA88723003DC1D984D555D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, According to Jane Donawerth, the term "speculative fiction" came in to circultaion during the 1960s and 70s "to suggest the fuzzy nature of the boundary between fantasy and sf, to recuperate the works of sf that were not part of the conservative space opera tradition, and to designate a body of New Wave sf that did not operate by the old rules" (Donawerth, Frankenstein's Daughters p.xv). Hope this helps! Erin :) Daniel Byrne wrote: > 1. Next book? What's the next book on the list after the MZB? I > wasn't on this list when the books were discussed, and I'd like to be up > to speed to discuss the next one. > > 2. Tepper: Gibbon's Decline and Fall, and Sasson's Princess. > > I have been finishing up Tepper's Gibbon's Decline and Fall. I am > reading one Tepper book after another -- much like I did with Vonda > McIntyre when I discovered her work, which I love, and later used > Dreamsnake as the reading for the final week of my Medical Anthropology > course a couple of years ago. > > Back to Gibbon's Decline and Fall. In the middle of reading this book, > I got distracted by another book about Moslem women in Saudi Arabia, a > trade paperback written by Jean P. Sasson called Princess. Sasson says > she is telling the story of a real person, so it is written > autobiographically from the words and diaries of a Saudi woman she calls > Sultana. Being an anthropologist, I am not surprised by purdah and > female circumcision, but I was very much surprised by the depths of the > horrors experienced by Saudi women at the hands of Saudi men. Neither > the author nor Sultana claim to be anti-Islam, but rather dislike the > way Islam has been misinterpreted to harm women's lives. > > It was an interesting interlude to my reading of Tepper's book Gibbon's > Decline and Fall. Tepper describes a world at the end of the 20th > century which is much like the contemporary world of Saudi women. She > has given me a vision of what it might be like here in the US were > fundamentalism to become sufficiently powerful that women's lives here > might be similarly restricted and fouled. > > 3. One more question: The origins of the term "speculative > fiction"? I am not looking for a simple definition, but rather an > historical one. > > Candice Bradley > Appleton, WI --------------7DA88723003DC1D984D555D6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi,

According to Jane Donawerth, the term "speculative fiction" came in to circultaion during the 1960s and 70s "to suggest the fuzzy nature of the boundary between fantasy and sf, to recuperate the works of sf that were not part of the conservative space opera tradition, and to designate a body of New Wave sf that did not operate by the old rules" (Donawerth, Frankenstein's Daughters p.xv).

Hope this helps!

Erin  :)

Daniel Byrne wrote:

1.   Next book?   What's the next book on the list after the MZB?   I
wasn't on this list when the books were discussed, and I'd like to be up
to speed to discuss the next one.

2.   Tepper: Gibbon's Decline and Fall, and Sasson's Princess.

I have been finishing up Tepper's Gibbon's Decline and Fall.   I am
reading one Tepper book after another -- much like I did with Vonda
McIntyre when I discovered her work, which I love, and later used
Dreamsnake as the reading for the final week of my Medical Anthropology
course a couple of years ago.

Back to Gibbon's Decline and Fall.   In the middle of reading this book,
I got distracted by another book about Moslem women in Saudi Arabia, a
trade paperback written by Jean P. Sasson called Princess.  Sasson says
she is telling the story of a real person, so it is written
autobiographically from the words and diaries of a Saudi woman she calls
Sultana.   Being an anthropologist, I am not surprised by purdah and
female circumcision, but I was very much surprised by the depths of the
horrors experienced by Saudi women at the hands of Saudi men.   Neither
the author nor Sultana claim to be anti-Islam, but rather dislike the
way Islam has been misinterpreted to harm women's lives.

It was an interesting interlude to my reading of Tepper's book Gibbon's
Decline and Fall.  Tepper describes a world at the end of the 20th
century which is much like the contemporary world of Saudi women.    She
has given me a vision of what it might be like here in the US were
fundamentalism to become sufficiently powerful that women's lives here
might be similarly restricted and fouled.

3.    One more question:  The origins of the term "speculative
fiction"?   I am not looking for a simple definition, but rather an
historical one.

Candice Bradley
Appleton, WI

  --------------7DA88723003DC1D984D555D6-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:14:22 -0600 Reply-To: egarrett@du.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erin Garrett Organization: None Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, As long as we are on the topic of Wicca and Wiccans, I have a question: what is the history of the Wicaan faith? I've heard it called the "old religion," but then I've also read that it is a relatively new movement (i.e., 2oth century) with more indebtedness Lovecraft than pagan culture. My ignorance is painful--does anyone have a thumb-nail sketch of its development? Best to all, Erin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:22:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catweasal (whose sign-off lines I love!), There are also publishers who make their offerings available only on computer disk or CD-ROM. You might try http://www.mirror.org/elb/index.html, for example. (Shameless plug, one of the books in this catalog is mine.) Nina Osier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:25:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mea culpa--I HATE misspellings, but today I hit "send" too fast. Must be that guy working on my furnace at who knows what $ per hour, it's 11:24 and he started at 8 a.m.... Sorry, Catweasel. Nina Osier (Time I used spellcheck. It wanted me to call you "cat weasel." Aaargggh.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:09:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erin Garrett wrote: > As long as we are on the topic of Wicca and Wiccans, I have a question: what is > the history of the Wicaan faith? I've heard it called the "old religion," but > then I've also read that it is a relatively new movement (i.e., 2oth century) > with more indebtedness Lovecraft than pagan culture. My ignorance is > painful--does anyone have a thumb-nail sketch of its development? Wicca covers a wide range of practice and belief and is not strictly based on any one historical religion. To get a better idea, visit the alt.religion.wicca Frequently Asked Questions page at http://www.teleport.com/~rain/arwfaq.html -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:25:47 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Fem Scifi - romance cross over In-Reply-To: <19980717144514Z222931-12245+379@listserv.oit.unc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone mentioned Sharon Green's books? I don't think I've read anything labelled "romance" since high school, but the "blending" series ("Convergence" is the first one) seemed like it might fit the bill, and her two series that cross over each other ("silver princess, golden knight" is one of the books) might also. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Becky Hinshaw [mailto:hinshaw@EMAIL.UNC.EDU] > Sent: Friday, July 17, 1998 7:45 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fem Scifi - romance cross over > > > To. C. Asaro: > The books of Elizabeth Moon, esp. the Herris Serrano series > (HUNTING PARTY, WINNING COLORS, SPORTING CHANCE and in the same > universe ONCE A HERO) might be appealing to a romance reader. They > are set in a universe where gender is less an issue than class, age, > or wealth, that has an aristocracy and riding to hounds, space ships > and horse farms .... a pleasant mix of the familiar and strange, great > space opera. The main characters are strong women, the main > relationships seem to be the friendships between women of various ages > (yet hetero romance shows up too). The stories deal with honor, > friendship, and loyalty; ONCE A HERO also deals with repressed memory > of rape, and recovery. Not overtly feminist but I think they could fit > in a feminist reading list (for the reasons listed above). > > Becky Hinshaw > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:20:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: catweasel's querry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a visually impaired student who had a computer program that could convert everything onscreen to large type. Is this the kind of system you have, Catweasel? Candice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:58:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patrick Boily Subject: Re: Reading suggestions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980716231031.0070b054@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Allo. To Janice E. Dawley > >What about "Native Tongue", by Suzette Haden Halgin [Elgin] > > Good god! This is the last book I would recommend to a man leery of > feminism. I was downright offended by the straw men Elgin set up as her > sexist villains, and I'm a militant feminist. I can only imagine how he > might react. Well... I must admit that I hadn't had a lot of exposure to feminist litterature, or feminism for that matter when I read "Native Tongue", but I couldn't put it down ... So it has worked at least once. Mind you that is certainly no garantee that it would work again in his case. Oh well. Thanks for telling me. -- Patrick Boily ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:06:19 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Reading suggestions for a 31 yo male friend... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jul 98, at 21:30, Todd Mason wrote: > Well, until you got to little or no sex passage, the first writer who came > to mind to hook an unsympathetic buddy on profeminist sf was John Varley, > more for his short stories than his novels It's not so much that I don't want sex passages, it's simply that I'd like to introduce him to the literature...without the distraction of raunchy bits. I'm particularly anxious to win him over, not by persuasion but by allowing the writing to speak for itself. In addition, I get the impression that an uncomfortable amount of the sex in SF/F is gratuitous - added at the publisher's request for the sake of the box office. You know the sort of thing: "this book's aimed at middle-aged women so add a romantic sex scene to page 10 and a gentle lesbian episode to page 200" or "this book's aimed at young men so add a vigorous hump to page 10 and lesbian action - heavy on ... - to page 200". AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:06:19 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Reading suggestions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I haven't read the second book ("Freedom's Challenge"); until you mentioned it, I wasn't even aware that there was a 2nd one. I'm going to get our New York office to send it over, although I'm perturbed about the direction your comments indicate the series is taking. It reminds me somehow of one of MZB's Darkover books (title escapes me but it's about the original landing before the planet was called Darkover) which I also found a little unpleasant in that way. AJ ---------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za On 16 Jul 98, at 14:39, Angela Quick wrote: > Regarding Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's Landing" as a good introduction to > feminist s/f: have you read the second book in the series yet? .... AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:06:19 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Reading suggestions In-Reply-To: <19980716.162323.-476223.1.jjggww@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 16 Jul 98, at 16:23, Frances Green wrote: > Just to clarify: it's Suzette Haden Elgin, not Halgin I > personally myself am very fond indeed of Native Tongue, and I'd > be curious as to his reactions if he did read it. I would too - but as Janice E. Dawley added: > Good god! This is the last book I would recommend to a man leery of > feminism. I was downright offended by the straw men Elgin set up as her > sexist villains, and I'm a militant feminist. I can only imagine how he > might react. Some of Elgin's phraseology might appear pretty inflammatory even to a male feminist supporter - let alone someone who's fairly neutral. If I recommended a book that - as "Native Tongue" does - blackguarded men for being male, I'd insult both him and myself. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:29:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patrick Boily Subject: Re: Reading suggestions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Allo. Re: > > Good god! This is the last book I would recommend to a man leery of > feminism. I was downright offended by the straw men Elgin set up as her > sexist villains, and I'm a militant feminist. I can only imagine how he > might react. > > Some of Elgin's phraseology >> might << > appear pretty inflammatory > even to a male feminist supporter - let alone someone who's fairly > neutral. If I recommended a book that - as "Native Tongue" does - > blackguarded men for being male, I'd insult both him and myself. I can only say that I didn't feel blackbearded when I read Native Tongue, but that's not exactly powerful insight. In all likelihood, you'll find plenty of books which won't constitute an insult for either of you. If things work out, he might even end up reading Native Tongue, and like it (or not) for what it's worth (admitedly (?), that might not be much, but who knows...) "Dans le doute,...." In the meanwhile, it might be a good idea for ME to re-read it and see what I make of it now... (I remember the disapointment I felt when I re-read "Inherit the Stars" by James P. Hogan, who for the smallest fraction of a second had been a favorite of mine... never again, I swear...) Ok, well, I thank you for the insight. -- Patrick Boily ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:37:03 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erin said - > As long as we are on the topic of Wicca and Wiccans, I have a question: what is > the history of the Wicaan faith? I've heard it called the "old religion," but > then I've also read that it is a relatively new movement (i.e., 2oth century) > with more indebtedness Lovecraft than pagan culture. My ignorance is > painful--does anyone have a thumb-nail sketch of its development? Forget Lovecraft for a start. A few sad sacks who reckon themselves to be satanists might get into lovecraft.. but wiccans.. no. Paganism of any kind is very cut off from it's roots in any overt sense, on account of the fact that the people who used to practice it all got killed off or frightened into silence a long long time ago (*). Some folks reckon they have family traditions going way back, and perhaps they are right.. the thing is nobody can really tell, and after a few years of this, nobody will ever know. I think a lot of the practice of modern wicca was more or less invented by gerald gardner in the 20s and 30s. I know not everyone will agree with me but I think a lot of the words and rituals aren't very old at all. But the spirit is very old indeed of course, and perhaps that's what matters. Alison (*) sorry i mean in the european tradition, the problem is less pronounced in some other parts of the world ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:29:10 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Reading Susggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to everyone for the suggestions to add to my reading list. This is a great help! If people have any more suggestions, please say so! Anthea wrote: > I have a different problem: a reading list for someone > whom I'm pretty anxious to introduce to feminist sf/f in a way which > WON'T put him off the genre. He's a man of 31 who (a) has only > read a limited amount of SF/F and that generally of the "space > opera"/"fantasy opera" variety AND (b) has little sympathy > for/antipathy towards feminism or the women's movement in general. > > Obviously I have a pretty good idea of what general sf/f he should > read, but it's the feminist sf/f that's the problem. I'd be grateful for > two or three recommendations which you think summarize the > position of feminist sf today. It's a difficult choice because the > books must be enjoyable as well as "educational" and should >contain _little_sex (that's to spare my feelings, not his). To give > you an idea, I've started him off on Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's > landing". Anthea, I've had male readers say my books have had the effect you're looking for. In fact, I was surprised that my most feminist book, THE LAST HAWK, has evoked more fanmail from men than from women, whereas the others are about evenly divided in readership, half male and half female. It struck me as odd because HAWK is set in a matriarchal culture where men have little power. When I ask male readers why it works for them, they say it is because the men are portrayed with the same sympathy as the women. Although I hadn't thought of it in those terms when I wrote the book, I did like all of the characters a great deal, both female and male, and tried to give them dignity, humor, and honor (except for the villains, or course, who are vile ). Still, HAWK is chock full of strong female characters portrayed in a postive light, and I reversed the roles for as many of the power imbalances between the sexes as I could fit in. It is in some senses a role reversal of the Helen of Troy story, though it involves a lot more than that. I hoped it would make effective social commentary, but I also wanted it to be fun. Heck, I had fun writing it. Women tell me they enjoy reading it for the commentary, for the strong female characters, and because it is unabashedly supportive of the women's movement. Some men say the same, and others tell me they enjoy reading it because it is fun to imagine being the drop-dead-gorgeous-to-die-for hunk that a world goes to war over (a male bodice-ripper! Or would one say a shirt-ripper? Doesn't have the same ooomph to it). But over and over I hear from male fans some form of the following: "I hadn't really appreciated what sexism (or a particular aspect of sexism) was like for women until I found myself putting myself in the position of the Kelric (the main character) and experiencing it as a man." Which was my hope for the book. The idea of "Walk a mile (or a lightyear :-) in my shoes." However, I can by no means claim to have summarized modern feminism. It is a wide field and involves numerous excellent writers, including the many brilliant ones on this list. In one book I can only touch one small part of it, and even that one part is bound to raise controversy. I've been criticized by some male readers for the "polemic" of reversing the roles, and by some women for portraying the male characters in a positive light. But still, HAWK has had success with audiences of both sexes. Once caveat; it does have some romantic scenes. I did my best to write them with taste, and in fact most take place within marriage. They are told with a woman's perspective, even when the viewpoint character is male, so in that sense they are probably more likely to appeal to female readers. Still, it doesn't seem to put off my male readers. I've had a number say they find it interesting to read a woman's take on it. At any rate, if you want to check out the first chapters of the book, to see if it is something that might work for your friend, they are at my web site: http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ under the link that says "FREE chapters." Patrick Boily wrote: > What about "Native Tongue", by Suzette Haden Halgin, and "Prime Inversion" > by Catherine Asaro ? The former reminded me a bit of "The Handmaid's > Tale", and it had interesting discussions about the power of language. > The latter was very enjoyable, with certain space-opera qualities, I > don't think anyone would be put off by it, ... (mind you, it might not be > considered to be feminist science-fiction novel, so ...) Well. But they > are not your typical sf, and they definitely have strong female and male > characters,,, It's actually PRIMARY INVERSION. It does have a lot of hard science and space adventure. PI is set in a culture where it is taken for granted that women occupy roles of authority, and neither men nor women blink at it. I've received some comments on the fact that in the two rescue scenes, it is the woman who rescues the man, and also that the female narrator, who is almost fifty, is twice the age of the male romantic interest. But the reactions have been positive. In fact, as far as I have seen, the relationship has generated absolutely no controversy. That isn't as progressive as it sounds, though, because the woman is beautiful (she's the one on the cover of THE RADIANT SEAS), as opposed to the relationships in HAWK where the older women look older. Actually, come to think of it, the relationships in HAWK haven't generated controversy either, that I'm aware of. We will have to see on that one, though. The paperback hasn't come out yet, and that usually brings in a wider audience. I was at first surprised when reviewers started talking about the strong female characters in PI because I thought I was writing normal female characters. Perhaps that is the ultimate goal of the woman's movement, to create a world where strong women are seen as part of the norm, rather than unusual. I didn't set out with PI to make a statement in that sense, but I realize now that whether I intended it or not, the book does do so in its assumptions about equality and an egalitarian society. My sf is just fiction, but it is true that I have a vision of a future where women and men can work together, as partners, to make the human experience a better one for everyone. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:55:37 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gina Puc Subject: help Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Content-Type: text/plain i would appreciate it if someone could help me out by telling me how to unsubscribe from this listserv. i'd be very grateful thanks gina ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:58:59 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Further reading suggestions for a 31 yo male friend... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-07-17 13:03:04 EDT, AJ wrote: << In addition, I get the impression that an uncomfortable amount of the sex in SF/F is gratuitous - added at the publisher's request for the sake of the box office. >> This is definitely not the case with Varley, I believe...sex is integral to his stories, perhaps particularly the 1970s ones collected in THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION, THE BARBIE MURDERS (sort of the "b-side" collection) and much of BLUE CHAMPAGNE. It's rarely if ever. "Let's stop talking tech or fist-fighting and have sex," nor other such disjointed intercourse. Shame on me for not thinking of Carol Emshwiller as well, any of her short story collections or CARMEN DOG. Been meaning to read her newer western, LEDOYT, for a while now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:07:12 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Help wanted - of a different sort Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Not only do you sound qualified for the 16 RPM soundsheets that the Library of Cong can send (and the 16rpm or are they down to 8rpm? turntables) and the cassette packages, but also radio broadcasting for the vision-impaired will broadcast a wide variety of literary materials in various places (in the DC area at least, newspaper articles and featuers can also be accessed via telephone--my own dulcet tones used to torment customers of Washington Ear), Special receivers are needed...and, as suggested in re LOC services, you qualify for one if you want it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:49:08 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Origins of "Speculative Fiction": Garrett, quoting Donawerth Comments: To: egarrett@du.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Donawerth's description is interesting, but incomplete. Robert Heinlein is usually credited with coining the term, and presenting it either in a convention speech or in his contribution to Lloyd Arthur Eschbach's pioneering collection of essays by sf writers about sf (or was it R. Bretnor's similarly pioneering collection, MODERN SCIENCE FICTION...? Guess whose reference library is mostly in storage in another state!). But it was Judith Merrill, in her annual best-of-the-year anthology and elsewhere, who was the greatest exponent of the term's use from the early '60s onward. THE YEAR'S BEST S-F, as the annual was labelled for much of its run, originally (1956, vol. 1) abbreviated "science-fantasy," which was to allow straightforward science fiction and unadulterated fantasy to be collected along with Jack Vance stories...but as her volumes grew more eclectic, and science fantasy seemed to be taking on a distinct meaning of its own, she dusted off "speculative fiction." What with H. L. Gold (with the considerable help of Frederik Pohl) in GALAXY (and Pohl solo in the STAR SF paperback series) and Robert Mills in VENTURE SCIENCE FICTION and later in THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, along with the founding editors of F&SF before Mills and major editors working for less stable magazines, such as Damon Knight and Larry Shaw at IF, and Shaw at INFINITY--what with all of these contributing a greater acceptance of "taboo" and previously unbroached subject matter and unusual styles of writing in the previous decade, the early '60s saw Cele Goldsmith editing FANTASTIC: STORIES OF IMAGINATION and AMAZING: FACT AND SCIENCE FICTION (first to publish Ursula K. Le Guin, Thomas Disch, Sonya Dorman, and a number of others), Avram Davidson at F&SF, Ted Carnell publishing adventurous work by J. G. Ballard and others in SCIENCE FANTASY and NEW WORLDS magazines in the UK...basically, with the addition of the slightly more censorious but ambitious Frederik Pohl as full editor at GALAXY, what is usually referred to as "the New Wave" was already crashing on the beach as early as Judith Merrill began quoting Bob Dylan lyrics in her notes between the stories and other items in her anthologies, ca. 1964. The advent of Michael Moorcock becoming editor of NEW WORLDS in '66 and Harlan Ellison's anthology DANGEROUS VISIONS appearing in '67 (DV had grown out of a project that Merrill had not been able to get published) merely made the obvious unavoidable, and specultive fiction/SF (as opposed to science fiction/sf) was inextricably wrapped up with the decade's developments. Now, most people who still use it do so to refer to the whole of fantastic fiction--which is what Merrill meant by it. Heinlein just thought it better than "science ficiton" to describe what he was writing. He was not the last writer to think so about her or his own work. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:12:56 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Yvonne Rowse Subject: Re: Reading suggestions for a 31 yo male friend... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi How about 'Take Back Plenty' by Colin Greenland. It's a while since I read it so I can't remember lots about it but it is space opera with a woman hero. There's a little bit of sex but there's a little bit of sex in most books I read these days. Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:51:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm now finishing up my 3rd Tepper book (*Gate to Women's Country*), having finished *Gibbon's Decline and Fall* and *Family Tree*. I think Tepper does a reasonably good job of dealing with issues of race and ethnicity. The tribes in Family Tree may be understood, in part, as metaphors for folks of different races and ethnicities. Gibbon's Decline and Fall features five women, including Faye who is African-American and Sophy, who is (again, metaphorically?) Native American. The remaining three women are white; the black woman is a lesbian, and one white woman is a closeted lesbian nun. These books are reasonably balanced, although I will address my reservations in a moment. Gate to Women's Country, an earlier book, is the least enlightened of the three when it comes to race and sexual preference. The main characters seem all to be blue, green and grey eyed, some with blonde hair or red hair, some even with skin described as white as ivory. Beauty and blondeness seem to go hand in hand. Men are heavily bearded or have hair that can be worn down the back in a braid. Gate to Women's Country is the only one of the three in which homosexuality doesn't exist -- it is written out near the beginning with the explanation that there are no homosexuals in Women's Country because the society's medical practices eliminated whatever hormonal imbalance caused homosexuality in the first place. I understand the logic of eliminating homosexuality for the purposes of this book, because this story of a rigidly sex-segregated society would be less believable if women or men could choose not to have liaisons with people of the opposite sex. Some of that necessary underlying tension would be eliminated, and Tepper would have been faced with additional issues having to do with characters making sexual preference choices in addition to their other, already very complex, choices. But still, I was uncomfortable with her quick and easy cure for homosexuality in Gate to Women's Country. I pictured some of my gay students trying to read the book, and thought about scientific evidence for the hormonal argument, etc. etc. It was just too glib a solution, and I was distracted by it. All three books are essentially about white people as the unmarked category. Gate to Women's Country is the most extreme -- the assumption, I think, is a white heterosexual reader, or a reader for whom it is not problematic to assume whiteness and heterosexuality. Gibbon's Decline and Fall is a bit like some committees I've sat on -- one or two of everything present, and if you can combine some, even better (e.g. black woman lesbian). A white heterosexual universe with some other stuff thrown in -- after all, it's the 1990s, right? Finally -- Family Tree. Yup, it's a white universe there too, at least in the 20th century world. I'm not ranting about these issues because of some preconceived idea that sci fi has to fit into (or reflect) an artificially created politically correct universe. I am myself white and heterosexual. I do feel, however, that (with a few very wonderful exceptions) sci fi is, and continues to be, pretty white and mainstream -- a flaw, a lack of vision perhaps, a tendency to look back at what we have been and not forward at what we might be. Candice Bradley ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:38:42 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: BDG: Mists and sex and power In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm finally catching up on this group's email. I had comments mostly on Marina's postings, which I'll excerpt here willy-nilly and gratuitously out of context. Well, I'll do my best to maintain context, but please give me a little slack. There's a clip from one of Jessie's excellent postings as well. At 05:08 PM 7/7/98 -0500, Marina wrote: >What I found interesting about Margause was her sexual assertiveness. >Comparing with everyone else, including Morgaine, who is bouncing between "a >woman can choose her lovers, it's her Goddess-given right" ... I certainly agree that Morgause was the only one who saw what she wanted and took it. The rest of them just drove me nuts. You know, I was surprised that the "woman can choose her lovers" wasn't necessarily the case. Really, it was more like the priestesses had no control, but surrendered to the Goddess who directed them, and even then only at the holy times like Beltane. When Morgaine was freaking out one of those zillions of times with Lancelet, her problem seemed partly to be that she felt guilty wanting him for herself, rather than to "have" him while being possessed by the Goddess. From what I could make of the time she ended up seducing him, she got mad at him trying to please her, instead of just humping her. Maybe I missed something here and y'all can help me understand what happened. This was just before she assumed her big-bad-priestess glamour and chewed him out. I guess you (Marina) said this yourself in a later post: >So basically, it was the same >old idea of "as long as you don't enjoy it, it's not a sin". I guess I expected the Avalon girls to be more "sex-positive" as we say today, seeing sex as a manifestation of the power of the goddess. But not in this story anyway. As Marina said, Morgause was the only woman who took what she wanted. Much later, Marina commented: >The main point of Christianity was also that "sex is not a plaything". >Avalon's position on it does not seem any better. Having sex only for >procreation, or only "to please the Goddess", either way is only a "sacred >duty" that women must surrender to, whether they like it or not. Why is it >that male sexuality is never used as a form of spiritual currency? Excellent point. Can anyone name an example of male sexuality used in this way? > >Remember, at the beginning, Vivian says that "Goddess has a fourth face >(besides Virgin/Mother/Wisewoman), and I hope that Margause will >never wear this face". For what I understand, in the end it was implied >that Margause ended up wearing that fourth face, the 4th main role >of a woman, besides virgin/mother/old crone -- the whore. > Is this truly the 4th face? I thought the 4th face was death, or something close to evil or destruction. I didn't see much discussion of what this 4th face represented in emails so far. Other ideas? > >Going back to Margause, it seems to me that her loose sexuality was the main >reason she was chosen for one of the very few totally "bad guys" in the >book. It was as if her unrestrained interest in men from early age was >supposed to prepare the reader to see her turning into a throat-slashing >monster later in the book. Which I think was not only non-feminist, but >pretty much mysogenistic. I agree. I think her acceptance of her own sexual power, as opposed to it just being a manifestation of the goddess, is what made her interesting. It was as if turning her into a monster at the end was the nail in the sex-positive (or even feminist, you could argue) coffin for the book. And as Jessie so eloquently pointed out, there's a not-so-subtle comparison between Morgause's affairs and the "true" love Morgaine (and of course that twit Gwyn) has for Lance, painting Morgause and her sexuality as bad: >Nothing but the lens of Morgaine's perception shows us why >Gwenhwyfar's desire is more valid than Morgause's. > >From a later post, Marina said: >This was what I did not like about the Avalon the way it's portrayed in >this book the most. It bothered me that its priestesses -- both Vivian and >Morgaine -- seemed to care very little about anyone's lives or feelings. >Power is a very nice thing, but the price one os willing to pay for it >should have some limits. And the more I think about it, the more I feel that >the rulers of Avalon brought their fall on themselves. Which was >probably better for everyone, anyway. I would hate to see that people >who treat others like worthless pawns would prevail. I get what you're saying here, but it did seem to me they felt remorse about using people this way, and spent most of the book quite miserable because of it. I wonder, though, if it would have been less an offensive, or at least less surprising, misuse of power if it were from men. Why can't female characters wield power like this, and pay the price? Did anyone else have problems believing the Kevin character? I thought he was tough to figure out from the beginning, and never felt I understood his role in the story. Then there was his strange affair with Morgaine - did she really think she cared for him? It didn't fool me. Then to have him be such a traitor and not even know it. Perhaps he was a symbol of why Avalon fell - the people who thought they supported it didn't even know they were killing it. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:41:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: scattershot stray thoughts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:12 AM 7/9/98 +0100, Maryelizabeth wrote: >RE: Positive protrayals of Guinevere in her many spellings/incarnations. >THE CHILD QUEEN from Del REy came out a few years ago and I thought it was >a good read of G's life BEFORE Arthur. Did not read the sequel, THE HIGH >QUEEN, because I figured, "been there, done that..." > Is it true that Child Queen and High Queen are about Guinevere? I have them but haven't read them yet. This doesn't make me really enthusiastic to get to them. > >RE: Jo Clayton. I miss her terribly. Recommend she be read. Warning: her >brain seems to operate in trilogy mode, but they are most often three novel >which make up a story, rather than one story in three books, if that >distinction is clear... > I've only read her Moongather.. series, but it sure has stuck with me. Great strong female characters, adventure, story, interesting transition from fantasy to sf. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:17:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: BDG: Mists and sex and power In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19980716223158.00ebae20@mail.actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" nb: my new version of eudora for some reason has no spellcheck. I deeply apologize for my typing incompetencies... At 02:38 PM 7/18/98 -0700, Jen Kraul wrote: (actually, I think Marina wrote this part) >>Remember, at the beginning, Vivian says that "Goddess has a fourth face >>(besides Virgin/Mother/Wisewoman), and I hope that Margause will >>never wear this face". For what I understand, in the end it was implied >>that Margause ended up wearing that fourth face, the 4th main role >>of a woman, besides virgin/mother/old crone -- the whore. I've always thought the fourth face was one which implied destruction. the really neglected face of the goddess in Western spirituality.... The mother lion defending her litter, the Kali sort of energy. Forest fires and earthquakes, disaster in the Chinese sense of devastation leading to and neccesary for opportunity and change... And Margause, through her shaping of Mordred, fulfilled this destructive energy. I never really thought about the sexually voracious part of her character as playing in, but what people have been saying makes sense, and really annoys me. She is played as the one true 'bad guy' and her sexual freedom is part of that. Can't believe I missed that! Maybe its because I haven't read MOA in about 2 years.... >>From a later post, Marina said: >This was what I did not like about the Avalon the way it's portrayed in >this book the most. It bothered me that its priestesses -- both Vivian and >Morgaine -- seemed to care very little about anyone's lives or feelings. >Power is a very nice thing, but the price one os willing to pay for it >should have some limits. And the more I think about it, the more I feel >that the rulers of Avalon brought their fall on themselves. Which was >probably better for everyone, anyway. I would hate to see that people >who treat others like worthless pawns would prevail. > |I get what you're saying here, but it did seem to me they felt remorse |about using people this way, and spent most of the book quite miserable |because of it. I wonder, though, if it would have been less an offensive, |or at least less surprising, misuse of power if it were from men. Why |can't female characters wield power like this, and pay the price? |Did anyone else have problems believing the Kevin character? I thought |he was tough to figure out from the beginning, and never felt I |understood his role in the story. Then there was his strange affair with |Morgaine - did she really think she cared for him? It didn't fool me. |Then to have him be such a traitor and not even know it. Perhaps he was |a symbol of why Avalon fell - the people who thought they supported it |didn't even know they were killing it. Two points here: First, as has been said over and over, the Arthur story had certain elements which had to played within, Avalon had to fall, Christianity had to win out. I kind of appreciate that MZB had Avalon fall due to certain incomptencies of the priestesses rather then the vast srpitiual and worldy superiority of Christianity. This way, the women retained some agency. If I remember right, I had felt that the mishandling from Avalon came about because the religion was not one which had any experience with this sort of crisis and the leadership it required (or that they turned to) was in fact counter to their religious way. Like I said, I haven't read it for two years, but I have read it 6 six times (which I don't recommend. It doesn't hold up well in repeated readings), so I have had lots of various reactions and responses to it. The second point: When that mythically and feministly (like that's a word!) offensive piece of eye candy on Merlin came out a few months ago, MZB was interviewed in TV Guide. She basically said that in writing MOA Merlin was the hardest character for her to come to terms with, becasue she felt he was portrayed rather schizophrenically throughout the Arturian stuff. The only was she could come to terms with the widely varied actions attributed to him was to turn Merlon in The Merlin, an office of the Druids, which she then was able to fill with different people. Kevin is the non-canonical result, the depository of all that Merlin did that wasn't so very goddess positive... I think the end result is a weird character who doesn't really hang together well. I have really been enjoying peole's discussion on this book. I got so carried away the first two times I read MOA that I felt like I lived it--there were no critical faculties involved at all. My later readings were really flavored by the loss of that experience, and were far less watchful than this crew has been. You gyns really help me get more out of the books I/we read. On a completely off topic subject, I went to Seneca Falls on Thursday and heard Hillary talk--she's no radical but a surprisingly solid feminist! the 150 years would have been better marked if she had been speaking as Madam President rather than the first lady though... George Pataki (Gov of NY) made an equally powerful impact on me-- in a much more negative way. He doesn't even have enough of a grip on 'The Woman Question' to hire staffers to clue him in.... Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: CFP: Nowhere - exploring the uses of utopia In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980718231746.006a3c6c@mailbox.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Call For Papers NoWhere/Utopia NOWHERE - A PLACE OF OUR OWN: EXPLORING THE USES OF UTOPIA A one day postgraduate conference to be held at The University of Warwick on Saturday 8 May 1999 CALL FOR PAPERS This conference will host theoretically and empirically informed contributions to the debate about the nature of utopianism, where it can be found, and the part which the utopian imagination plays in motivating action, and thus its role in social, cultural and political practices and history. The Humanities Research Centre invites postgraduate students working in history, politics, sociology, English and other interested disciplines to present short papers of approximately 20 minutes. Possible topics might include: -- The place and function of utopianism in feminist, 'green', anarchist, socialist, fascist, liberal, conservative (etc.) politics and ideology -- The rhetoric of utopianism -- The utopian imagination in literature and film -- Dreams of Cockaigne and popular utopianism -- The concept of utopia as an analytical device -- The uses of utopia for cultural criticism -- The future of utopianism after "The End of History" Please contact: Philip Coupland, Humanities Research Centre, University of Warwick, Coventry, CV4 7AL, United Kingdom. e-mail: coupland@mcmail.com tel.: 01933 229134 (Home) visit for updates Closing date for abstracts (150-300 words) 30 November 1998 Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:20:09 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: A. A. Attanasio's matter of Britain fantasies... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Has anyone (particularly the trufans of Arthurian fantasy or MOA specifically) tried A.A. Attanasio's THE KINGDOM OF THE GRAIL (I would suggest this as another profeminist possiblity, AJ), or his newer series beginning with THE DRAGON AND THE SWORD? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:59:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG: Mists and sex and power In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19980716223158.00ebae20@mail.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I wonder, though, if it would have been less an offensive, > or at least less surprising, misuse of power if it were from men. Why > can't female characters wield power like this, and pay the price? > I agree that women should not be judged harsher than men for abusing the power. I also think, though, that they should not be given slack for obnoxious behavior just for being female. I believe that people should be responsible for their actions towards those who trust them, regardless of gender. That's what equality is about, isn't it? There is no reason for women in power to be "nicer" than men, nor get away with being assholes just because they are women. I think it's very important to maintain this balance in order to see all people as humans first. At least that's what I think. > Did anyone else have problems believing the Kevin character? I thought he > was tough to figure out from the beginning, and never felt I understood his > role in the story. Then there was his strange affair with Morgaine - did > she really think she cared for him? It didn't fool me. Then to have him > be such a traitor and not even know it. Perhaps he was a symbol of why > Avalon fell - the people who thought they supported it didn't even know > they were killing it. To me, Kevin was "if you can't beat them, join them" type. In a way, he was more sensible in being able to recognize and accept Avalon's defeat. At the same time, there was no real excuse for him stealing the Avalon regalia and handing it over to its enemies -- that was a first-degree betrayal. Concerning his affair with Morgaine, it was another part that made me sick. The way it looked to me, Morgaine felt nothing but pity towards him and decided to sleep with him just to boost his self-esteem or something. In a way, she was sacrificing her body for a man she did not even love just to make him feel better about himself. Sort of letting him use her as antidepressant. Which seems to be another example of people in Mists having very little regard to female bodies. And the fact that Kevin accepted this "act of charity" makes him even more pathetic. I think that Kevin was believable, even though very unsimpathetic. There are quite a few losers like that in real life. I think that him becoming the Merlin had to do with the general degradation of Avalon. They simply did not have anything better. The same as Niniane became the High Priestess while having no Sight. This is not really on-topic, but has anyone seen the new Disney flick, _The Quest for Camelot_? According to commercials, it's about a "girl who wanted to be a knight". I wonder if it's in any way related to Arthurian theme. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:25:36 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: books and comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jennifer asked: >At 07:12 AM 7/9/98 +0100, Maryelizabeth wrote: >>RE: Positive protrayals of Guinevere in her many spellings/incarnations. >>THE CHILD QUEEN from Del REy came out a few years ago and I thought it was >>a good read of G's life BEFORE Arthur. Did not read the sequel, THE HIGH >>QUEEN, because I figured, "been there, done that..." >> >Is it true that Child Queen and High Queen are about Guinevere? I have >them but haven't read them yet. This doesn't make me really enthusiastic >to get to them. Yep. And it's a pretty positive picture of her. Not as whiney as many. >> >>RE: Jo Clayton. MINOR SPOILERS >I've only read her Moongather.. series, but it sure has stuck with me. >Great strong female characters, adventure, story, interesting transition >from fantasy to sf. > She moves about pretty easily from character to character with regard to gender, species, etc. Also from SF to fantasy, including stuff like a world with manifest gods, one of whom is a space ship.The character from Moongather comes back in a later trilogy, after a brief intersection with characters from a different trilogy. RE: Tepper's focus on white characters In GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY, I took the pretty homogenous ethnic group to be a characteristic of the group which survived the original disaster, and thought that other enclaves might well vary. It's my suspicion that she tends to write about Caucasian characters because that is something she does well and naturally, but she may not feel comfortable writing from a different POV. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:14:29 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: The Paranoid Style in American Television (re: PROFILER: Levenite) Comments: To: horror@listserv.indiana.edu Comments: cc: Alektra@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit or, actually, in American and European TV and movies...but paranoia is getting to be a tiring cliche. Which leads us to the current crop of paranoid television: THE X-FILES is the single show most responsible for the current paranoid trend, but is hardly alone, nor the first. The NBC "Thrillogy" of the canceled DARK SKIES, THE PRETENDER and PROFILER were all answers to X-FILES growing success, with DARK SKIES the most obvious ripoff but not without its charm, and PROFILER more derived from THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS (the film more than the novel) with a strong supermarket Gothic strain added. Reports that "real" horror writers will be contributing scripts to PROFILER next season cheer me a little. What really inspired me to scrawl this out was dipping into the new USA series THE NET and SINS OF THE CITY tonight, and as I write the pilot episode of EARTH: THE FINAL CONFLICT is repeating on my set. Now, THE NET pilot is mildly tolerable, the MELROSE PLACE refugee who's taken on the Sandra Bullock role is up to what the script demands...which isn't much so far. The versimilitude of the show can be judged by the scene in which our heroine and her similarly targeted acquaintance contemplate an enormous warehouse of files; she wonders why the material isn't on disc. The other suggests that the material is probably on disc somewhere, but, after all, this secret government project with military implications was taking place in 1984, and whoever heard of the internet in 1984? Leaving aside what internet access has to do with disc storage versus hard copy, lots and lots of people had heard of the internet by 1984, inasmuch as the military and other government agencies and universities had been building it for the previous 15 years. But which scriptwriters had heard of it in 1984? SINS OF THE CITY, which followed, was surprisingly good, which is to say not particularly insulting to the intelligence. A sensitive-cop show set in Miami, it's not as ridiculous nor as expensively color-coordinated as its obvious predecessor. And the paranoia content is bit lower than THE NET or LA FEMME NIKITA, abeit a bit higher than SILK STALKINGS or PACIFIC BLUE, the older USA dramas; all the USA series share a tendency toward model-like actors in the lead roles. But at least SINS has a female lead who actually has a few lines in her face, and it's making an effort to reach toward a sort of realism...we'll see where it goes. NIKITA is the USA show getting the most attention, and the most paranoid, based ultimately on the silly French film, and its US adaptation. USA thinks NIKITA gains by being on after X-FILES, catching some of the audience that has had little other programming available beginning at 10 pm ET on Sundays. Other projects which clearly saw light of day as result of X, aside from the most obvious MILLENIUM, include NOWHERE MAN (UPN, cancelled), MICHAEL HAYES's second incarnation (CBS, cancelled), STRANGE LUCK and VR5 (FBC, cancelled), BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER (WB, deservedly prospering), THREE (WB, cancelled), and such syndicated fare as EARTH: THE FINAL CONFLICT, F/X, and the cancelled TWO. NIKITA and F/X have some roots in spy television, as well, even as X- FILES does...and spy tube was the both the most consistently interesting and paranoid of 1960s television: SECRET AGENT/THE PRISONER and THE AVENGERS from Britain, MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E, MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE, I SPY, WILD WILD WEST (and GET SMART!) domestically. THE FUGITIVE was the major non-spy contribution to the paranoid tradition. But we could do with a bit less paranoid conspiracy mongering--not only is it getting tired, it defeats itself among those (such as Chris Carter, despite his surfer's love of "misterioso" for its own sake) who have some serious intentions. As with the only US drama series to regularly suggest any kind of anti-establisment views in the post-LOU GRANT '80s, CAGNEY AND LACEY, where the character Harvey Lacey has beefs with the government and other institutions, but was ultimately a joke because he tried to tie everything to conspiracies...the truth is right here. No cabals necessary. And as the writer Alfred Bester noted forty years ago, there's never Just One Person standing up against the Machine with the Right Answer, or At Least the Right Question... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 05:47:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG MOA Re Re chocolate cake Sorry Jessie, It took me so long to answer, I've lost your post. Again on the difference between Gwen and Morgause. Yes, Lancelet was Gwen's Turtle cake because she loved him or rather because he was the one person in her life with whom she'd established a deep personal bond. The sexual expression of that bond would have been a most natural, possibly healing, step. Perhaps if Gwen would have made a real connection with someone, she could have shrugged off some of the unnatural control of self she gave to religion. Morgause's Turtle cake was not any of her little play things. Whether or not they were the 10 most sexually innovative men in the land makes no difference. A meaningful sexual expression had nothing to do with expertise. ( Morgaine sure didn't have much good to say for Lancelet in that area.) It had to do with bonding. Unfortunately Morgause's Turtle cake was to wear the crown of all Britain, and power hungry people come off very poorly in novels. (also in life unless they can be shown to seek power not for itself but for some higher good for their people.) Maybe Morgause's perfunctory use of sex was used to show her lack of humanity, her unsuitability to wear the crown. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:43:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>> Erin Garrett wrote: >>As long as we are on the topic of Wicca and Wiccans, I have a question: >>what is the history of the Wicaan faith? I've heard it called the "old >>religion," but then I've also read that it is a relatively new movement (i.e., >>2oth century) with more indebtedness Lovecraft than pagan culture. My >>ignorance is painful--does anyone have a thumb-nail sketch of its >>development? Uh-oh, now you've done it. There's a lot of debate about that question, with some of those who profess pagan or Wiccan beliefs swearing that there is a long oral tradition of their beliefs, while there are those who say that the modern pagan movement is mostly a pastiche of legend, romantic tales, bad history, and wishful thinking. I'm afraid that I'm one of the latter. I am, however, open to any *serious* suggestions of reading material, but, I warn you, I've already read the common texts (such as "Drawing Down the Moon") and found them wanting in hard evidence and logical development. Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:56:06 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Help gratefully received. Thank you. In-Reply-To: <35AECCBE29E.4362CATWEASEL@outmail1.cableinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, the Library of Congress suggestion was good, but not applicable to me. I am not an American, and I am not really interested in listening to books. I would rather listen to music while I read. I will remember the advice though, because it may help someone else. The scanner suggestion I initially rejected, but on further reflection it occurred to me that there are a few books which I really would like to be able to refer back to after reading. I only have a hand scanner and my drives are bursting at the seams, but as soon as I have some spare cash I'll upgrade. I will only do hardcovers; paperbacks tend to fall apart during scanning, which to me is tantamount to sacrilege. The online stuff was definitely what I was after. I spent the weekend ensuring that my phone company can afford to purchase that small country it's always wanted. From what I have seen so far I think all the URLs are going to prove useful, and several had other links worth checking. Excuse me, I have rather a lot of reading to do. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Nothing is so smiple that it can't be screwed up. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:06:13 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/20/98 1:44:24 PM, Debra wrote: <> "Pagans" and "Wiccans" are not interchangable words. A lot of people seeking alternative spirituality have gone back to ancient texts, most of which are provided by archeology -- Ancient world beliefs, definitely pagan but not what is commonly called "Wicca." The later is probably a patische, and most certianly was highly influenced by the Gardners in this century, but that does not make it invalid as a spiritual path. "...hard evidence and logical development" are pretty hard come by in matters of religion. As Joseph Campbell once remarked (and I paraphrase): if the existence of deity has to be "proven" what's the value of faith? best, Phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:41:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phoebe Wray wrote: >>"Pagans" and "Wiccans" are not interchangable words. I didn't say they were, put pagan *or* Wiccan. >>A lot of people seeking alternative spirituality have gone back to ancient texts, most of which are provided by archeology -- Ancient world beliefs, definitely pagan but not what is commonly called "Wicca." I'm an archaeologist who reads several ancient languages, so I do know a little bit about ancient religions and texts. And what I know is that we still understand very little about ancient religions--generally, they're much weirder than you would have imagined. >>The later is probably a patische, and most certianly was highly influenced by the Gardners in this century, but that does not make it invalid as a spiritual path. I didn't say that Wicca is invalid as a spiritual path--people can believe anything they want, as far as I'm concerned. They can even pray to the impertubable yellow marshmallow god, for all I care. I'm an atheist. >>"...hard evidence and logical development" are pretty hard come by in matters of religion. As Joseph Campbell once remarked (and I paraphrase): if the existence of deity has to be "proven" what's the value of faith? But there's a difference between faith, theology, and history of religion. For example, I may not be a fan of the Catholic Church, but the staggering amount of research and the beautifully realized logical arguments of Catholic theology can only be admired. I may not agree with their conclusions, but I admire how they got there. I never get so inspired by New Age religions. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:53:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Walto Subject: Freedom series & PI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just rejoined the listserv, and promised myself that I'd contribute . . . Angela Quick wrote: > Regarding Anne McCaffrey's "Freedom's Landing" as a good introduction to > feminist s/f: have you read the second book in the series yet? .... There's a third book in the series "Freedom's Challenge" that's now out in hardcover. I saw it in the book store and decided to pass since I wasn't thrilled with the second book for reasons already mentioned on this list. I'm wondering if anyone has read the third book and if it's worth the time. Anne McCaffrey's work seem to be popular and I've read quite a bit of it, but I don't think I'd classify it as "feminist." Her female characters may be strong (or is the correct term "spunky"), but they hold a lot of stereotypical roles. It seems to me that many people read them as an introduction to female sff authors, but then move away from them as they gain more exposure to other feminist sff authors. I just finished Primary Inversion by C. Asaro and it just struck me as I'm writing this that there are a couple (only a couple) of similarities between the Freedom series and PI: romantic relationship between the captive/captor races, being left on a remote planet. However, I did like PI better. Catherine Asaro wrote: the female narrator, who is almost fifty, is twice the age of the male romantic interest. But the reactions have been positive. In fact, as far as I have seen, the relationship has generated absolutely no controversy. That isn't as progressive as it sounds, though, because the woman is beautiful (she's the one on the cover of THE RADIANT SEAS), I'd say that it isn't so much that she's beautiful as that she seems half her age to the other characters. If she looks as old as her romantic interest, most readers could ignore that she actually isn't. Sincerely, Susan Walto ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:44:02 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gee, didn't mean to be contentious. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:12:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Contentious is fun! :-) Debra >>> Phoebe Wray wrote: >>> Gee, didn't mean to be contentious. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:10:17 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/20/98 8:41:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DEBRA.EULER@PENGUIN.COM writes: << the beautifully realized logical arguments of Catholic theology can only be admired >> When I was in grade school (Roman Catholic) we were taught that the reason we know there is a God is because the world could not have come into being without a creator. Last time I looked, that was considered circular reasoning. I am ALL EARS (eyes?) to see one of these beautifully realized logical arguments. Could you please pass one or two of them on to me? I am most eager to see them. I spent sixteen years in Catholic schools and somehow missed this. Thanks, Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:30:45 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit As I recall, Joseph Campbell was much discomfited by the young women in his classes who wanted to know what his mythology had to offer them. I believe there is a segment in his interview with D. Moyers where he somewhat huffily dismisses the idea that women might want more... Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:54:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain "Demetria M. Shew" wrote: >>>As I recall, Joseph Campbell was much discomfited by the young women in his classes who wanted to know what his mythology had to offer them. I've never understood the appeal of Joseph Campbell's writing myself. (Booooring!) We're getting a bit far away from SF though. If anyone wants to discuss religion, feminism, and SF, how about a discussion of The Sparrow and The Children of God? Or how about Sharon Shinn's Jovah novels? Debra ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "the sparrow" is on the slate for the BDG for December - http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/, so if we wait till then to discuss it, there will probably be more people who have read it. :) The Jovah novels I thought were great, though I didn't feel that they got all that deeply into theology; everything presented seemed pretty straightforward, though the twist of prayers usually being actually answered made everything more concrete (at least for the angels). Did I miss some subtlety? I loved the world-building in those books. Absolutely beautiful. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Euler [mailto:DEBRA.EULER@PENGUIN.COM] > Sent: Monday, July 20, 1998 11:54 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply -Reply > > > "Demetria M. Shew" wrote: > >> the reason we know there is a God is because the world could not have > come into being without a creator. Last time I looked, that was > considered circular > reasoning. > > You have my deepest sympathy for suffering through all that Catholic > school! :-) > > Having not been raised a Catholic, I only read Catholic theology when > I was reading medieval Latin in college, so I was spared the sort of > grade school pap you received. I'm thinking more along the lines of > Thomas More (guy who abused his young wife and still got to be a > saint) or Thomas Aquinas. I don't agree with them, but their > arguments are pretty. > > >>As I recall, Joseph Campbell was much discomfited by the young > women in his > classes who wanted to know what his mythology had to offer them. > > I've never understood the appeal of Joseph Campbell's writing myself. > (Booooring!) > > We're getting a bit far away from SF though. If anyone wants to > discuss religion, feminism, and SF, how about a discussion of The > Sparrow and The Children of God? Or how about Sharon Shinn's Jovah > novels? > > Debra > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:31:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: BDG concerns In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:41 PM 7/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >"the sparrow" is on the slate for the BDG for December - >http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/, so if we wait till then to >discuss it, there will probably be more people who have read it. :) > OTOH, I have been waiting months already to discuss it, and am kinda tired of waiting. A while back, I mentioned that I thought 6 months in advance was too long. There was not a single peep (not the genderliess marshmallow god) in response. I would very much like to open discussion on this matter, but if I am the only one who is bothered by it, I guess then its just me. What I see happening, or at least what has happened with me and what i expressed some concern about at the beginning of BDG, is that books which have been chosen are relegated to the side. I read The Sparrow because we discussed it here, and it seemed like a great read. It was. And I look forward to reading Children of God but part of me feels like holding off until it gets nominated, cuz I am really disliking sitting on my reactions. OTOH, I am finally getting around to reading Black Wine, and will make a point of reading Snow Queen since they have been made BDG books--this isn't a general knock on the BDG, it's a concern on timeliness. Some one also made a comment during the Moon and the Sun discussion that the list was turning into a BDG on it. This concerned me a bit, and no one else seems to have addressed it. It got me wondering whether new subscribers are aware that all and any (fem SF/F) books can be discussed at any time (except of course for BDG books yet to come.... Just some general concerns. Which I hope won't be taken critically. I have really been anjoying the discussions that have recentlky come to life here-- I feel like we are finally hitting a great stride, and I am leery to knock it off course Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:32:40 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/20/98 6:34:14 PM, Madrone wrote: <> I remember that too, vaguely... hackles rising a bit, but I don't recall the context. Maybe someone else does. best phoebe Yes, contentious can be fun. Enlightening, too. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:57:25 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: BDG concerns In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980720173145.0069fea8@mailbox.syr.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I agree, in part. I guess I didn't notice your other message, but I also think that 6 months out might be a little long. 2-3 months seems better to me; we ought to be able to set up some kind of automated web-based voting system, and then just send out a message or two to the list every couple of months, to remind people of where to go to nominate/vote. That would make it much less time-consuming on the volunteers who do the arranging (I'm assuming that's at least part of why it was decided to do 6 months worth all at once). I'd even volunteer to help out on the web stuff (having quite a bit of experience with this kind of programming), if nobody else has the time/inclination/ability. OTOH, people who read more slowly than me, or have to wait for books to come to them mail-order, or simply have less time to read, might be really appreciating all the lead-time we're giving them. I think it's probably a toss-up. I'd love to discuss "the sparrow" right now, too, but I'm also willing to re-read it over Thanksgiving in order to discuss it with more people in December. I don't think we should avoid discussing other books (like the previously-mentioned discussion of "the sun and the moon") just because it might be voted in as a BDG book next year sometime, though. That seems silly to me. The whole point of the list is to discuss feminist SF/F/U literature, right? the BDG just formalizes it for a few books at a time, so more people are more likely to have read a particular book at a particular time. That shouldn't preclude similar discussions of other books! Meantime, I'll be thinking about that web-voting thing; if I get an automated system set up on my account, would people want to use that, rather than making volunteers manually cut and paste (even if we stick with 6 months at a time)? -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Rudy Leon [mailto:releon@SYR.EDU] > Sent: Monday, July 20, 1998 2:32 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG concerns > > > At 01:41 PM 7/20/98 -0700, you wrote: > >"the sparrow" is on the slate for the BDG for December - > >http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/, so if we wait till then to > >discuss it, there will probably be more people who have read it. :) > > > OTOH, I have been waiting months already to discuss it, and am > kinda tired of waiting. A while back, I mentioned that I thought > 6 months in advance was too long. There was not a single peep > (not the genderliess marshmallow god) in response. I would very > much like to open discussion on this matter, but if I am the only > one who is bothered by it, I guess then its just me. > > What I see happening, or at least what has happened with me and > what i expressed some concern about at the beginning of BDG, is > that books which have been chosen are relegated to the side. I read > The Sparrow because we discussed it here, and it seemed like a great > read. It was. And I look forward to reading Children of God but part > of me feels like holding off until it gets nominated, cuz I am really > disliking sitting on my reactions. OTOH, I am finally > getting around to > reading Black Wine, and will make a point of reading Snow > Queen since they > have been made BDG books--this isn't a general knock on the BDG, > it's a concern on timeliness. Some one also made a comment > during the > Moon and the Sun discussion that the list was turning into a > BDG on it. > This concerned me a bit, and no one else seems to have > addressed it. It > got me wondering whether new subscribers are aware that all and any > (fem SF/F) books can be discussed at any time (except of > course for BDG > books yet to come.... > > Just some general concerns. Which I hope won't be taken > critically. I > have really been anjoying the discussions that have recentlky come to > life here-- I feel like we are finally hitting a great > stride, and I am > leery to knock it off course > Rudy Leon > Ph.D. candidate > Department of Religion > Syracuse University > releon@syr.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:14:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG and the sparrow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There's no rule that says you can't discuss books now that aren't up for discussion until later! I know, because I made up the rules. That's how scientific or communal the process was. If you want to talk about The Sparrow now, go for it. You can do it right on the list, or privately, as you like. And we have been discussing books all along on this list (that's what it's for, and if that's not obvious, we have another problem!). Happy coincidences like a bunch of people able to discuss The Moon and The Sun at the same time just weren't happening often enough, hence the organized schedule. I suppose one concern is that many people might not have read it and don't want any surprises ruined. There *is* a rule that during BDG discussion periods you don't have to use a spoiler alert. You might want to warn people if you're discussing something early. I know that what I'd probably do is just save all those messages essentially unread, and look at them later just before the discussion actually begins. Anyone else have concerns I didn't think of? I'll see that the "rules" are amended. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:30:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: bdg - general comments Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII to clarify the roles of the BDG in the context of the general list's discussion, maybe someone who was been doing some of the BDG volunteer work would write me up a short blurb that i can include in the basic list info? Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org ** No More Sig Files! ** No More Witty Slogans! Save Bandwidth! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:35:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Moongather In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maryelizabeth - What are the Jo Clayton books featuring the character(s) from Moongather? I'd be interested to read them. Thanks, Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:48:59 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Carolyn Ives Gilman Subject: Romance: belated reaction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit After reading Catherine Asaro's description of what constitutes romance, my reaction was, "Gee, I'd like to write some of that." (Imagine my surprise when I learned I already had.) Catherine, it strikes me that you are working toward a broader, almost 19th-century definition of romance, and jettisoning the narrower recent definition (romance equals mass-produced formula fiction like Harlequins). This seems like a noble resurrection of an abused term. After all, Sir Walter Scott, Alexander Dumas, Robert Louis Stevenson, and Victor Hugo all wrote romance according to the 19th-century definition. I believe that it was early immersion in writers like these that made me seek out SF later on, as the closest thing I could find to the same set of aesthetics and values. Carolyn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:50:47 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >After a long day trying to figure this list out I think I can post safely now without fear of rejection grin...my pasted message was as follows: Last winter quarter at my university, I took a introductory course in >Literary Criticism, and the professor, older type graduated from Oxford etc, >considered from the older school of English Literature, who emphatically and >emphasize emphatic...believed Campbell was a scholar who was only in this >business of mythology for his own agenda of ideas and not very >credible...this made me stifle a chuckle to myself the man so blatantly >disliked the idea of my bringing Campbell into the class discussion due to >the fact that the core text of this particular course was Northrop Frye's >and, when we wound down the end of the course, came to the conclusion that >what Frye did for Literary Criticism is what Campbell did for Mythology! >Amazing how people only see one end of things because they dislike a >particular scholar's work, hehe... > >Jo Ann At 02:30 PM 7/20/98 EDT, you wrote: >As I recall, Joseph Campbell was much discomfited by the young women in his >classes who wanted to know what his mythology had to offer them. I believe >there is a segment in his interview with D. Moyers where he somewhat huffily >dismisses the idea that women might want more... >Madrone > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:54:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One thing that has humored me in all of this thread of discussion is how we women today think in terms of a feminist-aware female in the 20th century applies their own realm of knowledge and existance to a time they never been to or can only experience through the historian eye, the social-historian eye, or through an author's eye, as portrayed in MZB's work here... I just finished reading Guinevere by Norma Lorre Goodrich, and although parts of it were hard to decipher, it gave me a perspective of how difficult it was to piece together the life of a women whom many say (historically) existed at one time over our human existance...unless an intact parchment falls into a prominent historian's lap in the immediate future all we have to base tales of speculation such as portrayed by MZB are the fragments, stone-carved monuments, and artifacts dated to be from that historical era. In the Goodrich book, Guinevere has many different names attributed to her person, as well as many connections to not only Scotland, but to Ireland, and Finland as well through folklore mythologies...One trouble with dealing with historical fragments and incorporating human qualities into a fictional work, is sometimes you have parameters within which to work in the fictional creative aspects you are prescribing to...that said, say if MZB had written of a female character in her work who was self-assured, and exemplified the essence of a "modern woman" or a "feminist-ideal," it would not have been true to the story MZB was creating, and would be out of place for where this particular creation was heading...now another work that I believe MZB had written where the female protagonist was a very strong self assured person to a degree in the time she was living in was the work Cassandra. There was more leeway with that novel due to the role of the female in those times, when dealing with priestesses, women had more of an opportunity to flourish as self-aware beings through their spiritual roles... Also, the Goodrich book is very well-researched, and gives various accounts of seeing Guinevere as a Pict Priestess, one who was annointed and barefoot, the sign of someone on the upper echelon of a religious servitude. Jo Ann At 02:26 PM 7/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu [128.248.100.54] by WGSERVER.Silent-Running.com with smtp > id BCAHBOEH ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:07:30 -0500 >Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) > by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA86520; > Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:07:25 -0500 >Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release > 1.8c) with spool id 122345 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 15 > Jul 1998 20:05:54 -0500 >Received: from broncho.ucok.edu (broncho.ucok.edu [192.206.65.10]) by > piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA69508 for > ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:51 -0500 >Received: (from my0203@localhost) by broncho.ucok.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id > UAA14136; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:16 -0500 (CDT) >Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:16 -0500 >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >From: Marina >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG MOA, sexuality >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In-Reply-To: <001a01bdaf70$00967420$c0272299@default> > >I still think that Nimue/Kevin story was extremely disgusting. The whole >concept of raising the girl in isolation just to sacrifice her body, and >in the end, her life for a political game seems to me pretty >unjustified, to put it mild. "Punishing" Kevin did not carry any >practical meaning in saving Avalon or make any difference in the >political situation. It was a simple, primitive, KGB-style political >revenge against a "dissident". Using a body of a 14-year-old girl for >that was IMHO sexual exploitation. > >It seems to me that Avalon priestesses were caught in what is called the >self-perpetuating circle of abuse. First, Vivian almost destroyed Morgaine by >making her screw her brother. Then Morgaine destroyed Nimue, also "for the >sake of a high cause". And each of them is being very self-righteous >about it: "I went through it, so you have to as well. That's life, >baby" or something pretty damn close. Just like those families where >parents rape their children who then grow up and rape their own children, >and so on, perpetually... > >Why is it that female sexuality always have to "serve" some "high >purpose"? How is standing in for "the land" (an object) in the inauguration >ceremony of a king is better than being married to a stranger as a free >supplement to your father's horses? In Kevin's cause, it was not even a >"marriage to the land", he was not a king, but a traitor. He would >probably die by himself couple years later, or get burned at a stake by >his new buddies-the priests. What was the point of sacrificing the >girl? Especially considering the fact that she was the only one who >could take over after Morgaine. They talked so much that there was >almost no one left to take over as the next High Priestess, and they simply >threw away their only hope. > >The main point of Christianity was also that "sex is not a plaything". >Avalon's position on it does not seem any better. Having sex only for >procreation, or only "to please the Goddess", either way is only a "sacred >duty" that women must surrender to, whether they like it or not. Why is it >that male sexuality is never used as a form of spiritual currency? > >>The freedom to treat great spiritual truths lightly doesn't seem to >> me to be much of a freedom. Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon >> because it involved no bond with the land or even with the men she chose, >> no bond at all. It was a plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a >> plaything. I don't find that attitude oppressive, I find it liberating >> to know we each possess this power. > >I think what robs a person of the potential for growth is when she kills >herself at the age of 14 after being used as a hooker by her primary >caretakers for the sake of their social intrigues. One cannot grow >when she's dead. Honestly, Nimue's story alone made me feel that Avalon >got what it deserved. Maybe it had been a great spiritual power at some >point, but by the time described in Mists it seemed to degrade into a bunch >of control freaks who did not want to relinquish their power over the >country and would stop at nothing to keep it. IMHO. > >Marina > >P.S.I really liked The Mists of Avalon. It's a beautiful tragic story (at >least most of the time). But if it was for real and accurately >represented historical facts, I would be glad that Avalon lost its power. >I think I would hate to live in a world ruled by psychics. It's bad enough >when they advise to the spouses of presidents... > >http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Silent Running BBS, Riverside, California. > 2 MajorMUD games, 3 LORD games and 2 Tradewars games > WWW.Silent-Running.com / telnet Silent-Running.com > 909-343-2030 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:43:16 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: Jo Clayton's Serroi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jennifer and anyone else: Serroi from MOONGATHER, etc. returns in the Dancer trilogy: DANCER'S RISE, SERPENT WALTZ and DANCE DOWN THE STARS, following a collision of worlds in the Wild MAgic trilogy (ya kinda had to be there...) Maryelizabeth (who is happy she just rearranged her bookshelves and now all her Claytons are in front, since my paperbacks are double stacked!) Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:48:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: books on and off BDG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:14:35 -0700 >From: Jennifer Krauel >Subject: BDG and the sparrow > >There's no rule that says you can't discuss books now that aren't up for >discussion until later! I know, because I made up the rules. That's how >scientific or communal the process was. If you want to talk about The >Sparrow now, go for it. You can do it right on the list, or privately, as >you like. > >And we have been discussing books all along on this list (that's what it's >for, and if that's not obvious, we have another problem!). Happy >coincidences like a bunch of people able to discuss The Moon and The Sun at >the same time just weren't happening often enough, hence the organized >schedule. > >I suppose one concern is that many people might not have read it and don't >want any surprises ruined. There *is* a rule that during BDG discussion >periods you don't have to use a spoiler alert. You might want to warn >people if you're discussing something early. > >I know that what I'd probably do is just save all those messages >essentially unread, and look at them later just before the discussion >actually begins. > >Anyone else have concerns I didn't think of? I'll see that the "rules" are >amended. > >Jennifer > > > >jkrauel@actioneer.com > Thanks much to Jennifer for the clarification. I like the reminder about SPOILERS in particular, but am sure that if someone is eager to discuss something now which isn't part of the formal BDG for a few months, there is plenty of room on a list this diverse for viewpoints to grow and be added by the time the formal discussion is here. And also, just a reminder that there is no rule, AFAIK, about returning to books which were previously discussed, like DREAMSNAKE or HALFWAY HUMAN. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:19:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: reading suggestions Comments: To: gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anthea--you asked for feminist reading suggestions for a specific guy--based on what you say, I'd recommend Lois McMaster Bujold series. She is sneakily and subversively feminist--plus writes a darn good "space opera" as well. Start off with the two novels about Cordelia, now in print under the joint title _Cordelia's Honor_. Then, if you can find it, _Ethan of Athos_. (hee hee hee the only all male utopian speculative fiction around as far as I know). And any of the Miles Vorkosigan series (although _Komarr_ the latest sort of depends on knowing some of the earlier ones, I'd think, for full enjoyment). And if you haven't read them yourself, go for it! I envy anyone who's getting to read LMB for the first time! Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:36:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Elgin & men & Feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some commentary on whether or not Suzette Haden Elgin's _Native Tongue_ would be a good early book to recommend to anyone (male or not) interested in feminist sf--I taught the book in sophomore college courses to a mixed group of students during the eighties when the anti feminist backlash was at its worst. The students (it was an advanced composition class) actually had a fairly good response to the novel because after all it was "in the future" and "not about them"--and also the focus of the class was language, so much of our discussion was about the linguistics in the novel. Elgin has her Ph.D. in linguistics, and the linguistic information is right on (the speculative part of the novel is to what extent language creates our sense of reality--see the Sapir-Worf theory of language--not the KLINGON). Students had a much more negative reaction to some of the articles we read (especially Camille Paglia who they saw as a nasty feminist though she doesn't identify with mainstream American feminism) because the authors were talking about people in contemporary America. Still--Elgin tends to be a writer people either LOVE or HATE pretty right away. If you can find some of her earlier works (The Coyote Jones series) which are probably out of print, that might be a compromise. (I LOVE her by the way). Someone also recommended Piercy's WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME--I think the males in that (the doctors) are presented as totally vicious and nasty, and those characters are a lot closer to what people think of "reality" today....... Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:06:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Elgin & men & Feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/98 4:38:34 PM, Robin wrote: << Someone also recommended Piercy's WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME--I think the males in that (the doctors) are presented as totally vicious and nasty, and those characters are a lot closer to what people think of "reality" today.......>> My experience with this book is that the men I know who read it loved it. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Indian SF conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thought this might be of interest to someone on the list. Mike Levy From Dr. K.S. PURUSHOTHAMAN FOUNDER - PRESIDENT, INDIAN ASSOCIATION FOR SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES NO: 6, 17TH EAST MAIN ROAD, GHANDHINAGAR, VELLORE - 632006, INDIA FAX : 0416-42058 E - mail : citicrox@md3.vsnl.net.in Dear sir, The Indian Association for Science Fiction Studies was launched in Jan '98. The first conference may be held on 2nd January '99, if every thing goes well. Wehave some sponsorship which,of course, is not enough. Since it is the first conference, I am keen on making an international one. I want American SF authors or academics or editors or any one related to SF be present at the conference. In this connection, I seek your assistance in finding out if any one in the SF world is travelling to India in Jan/ Feb '99, on his/her own. If such a person is willing I want him/her to attend the conference. We will take care of local hospitality. I will be grateful if you can inform me of such a person/persons if your know. Otherwise, atleast send me the address of any one who may be in the know of these details. I hope I am not inconveniencing you. Expecting an early reply Yours Sincerely Dr. K.S. PURUSHOTHAMAN --part0_901023641_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:26:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG concerns In-Reply-To: <3.0.4.32.19980720173145.0069fea8@mailbox.syr.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Rudy Leon wrote: > > What I see happening, or at least what has happened with me and > what i expressed some concern about at the beginning of BDG, is > that books which have been chosen are relegated to the side. I read > The Sparrow because we discussed it here, and it seemed like a great > read. It was. And I look forward to reading Children of God but part > of me feels like holding off until it gets nominated, cuz I am really > disliking sitting on my reactions. I think that having read a "non-nominated" book means you can start talking about it right away without waiting for everyone to read it. The same as we discuss X-files. After all, this is "feminist science fiction and fantasy" list, not just an on-line book discussion group. You don't need a "permission to speak freely". BTW, even though I enjoy discussing the "pre-nominated" books, the whole concept of BDG still seems funny to me. I think the idea of "book discussion groups" is something purely American, or at least Western. I remember that I found it hilarious the first time I've heard of it. It sounded like "TV discussion group" or "newspaper discussion group" -- something rather artificial, you know. In my culture, people just read books and talked about them whenever they had time, with anyone. The same way as they would discuss Princess Diana's marriage or the latest economic reform, during the lunch break or over coffee at a friend's house. Eventually, I decided that people who are interested in books are so rare here that they have to make up all those structures just to find someone else like them. Was I right, or was it just the desire to organize everything that stood behind the idea of BDG's? Just curious. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:44:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: BDG concerns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Eventually, I decided that people who are interested in books are > so rare here that they have to make up all those structures just to find > someone else like them. Was I right, or was it just the desire to organize > everything that stood behind the idea of BDG's? Hee-hee... It's not that it's hard to find people interested in books, but it's hard sometimes to find people who have read the same books recently enough to have a good conversation about them. Perhaps because there are so many books... ;-) It's interesting to see multiple viewpoints on a book, but more interesting when the book is fresh in everyone's mind. You and I will probably react to a book quite differently, but we can't talk very well about it unless we've both read it recently enough to recall the majority of the story. That's my opinion, anyway. -allen -- Allen Briggs - briggs@ninthwonder.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA Re Re chocolate cake In-Reply-To: <000801bdb3dc$9f04a260$f28dfbd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > Maybe Morgause's > perfunctory use of sex was used to show her lack of humanity, her > unsuitability to wear the crown. > Joyce > Exactly my point. Margause's intention to freely choose her partners instead of being manipulated by religious authorities and her desire to see sex as source of pleasure instead of some sort of "religious rite" was used in this book as the proof of her general wickedness. This approach to female sexuality IMHO is not any better that the medieval Christian idea of "evilness" of female body unless it's used to serve a man -- her husband. In Avalon, it's supposed to be used to serve the Goddess instead. In either case, the woman's body is only a means of "serving" of some sort, while her own needs and desires are secondary and "evil". Even if we assume that for some people having sex is permitted only for some high cause, it does not mean they have a right to condemn those who choose otherwise. The very fact that in Mists, the "evil" Margause was the only one happy with her sexuality (as opposed to all the neurotic "good" women, Goddess-worshipping and Christian the same), IMHO promotes the idea that only "bad" women can enjoy their bodies. The "good" ones would always choose to sacrifice themselves for a man, Goddess, or political games. Which I find extremely misogynistic. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:57:33 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: BDG concerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow. That's an interesting perspective. I think you may be right to a point about the reasons behind the "discussion group" phenomenon. The problem >I< find, at least, when I want to discuss a book, is finding someone else who's read that particular book, and read it recently enough to be able to discuss it. The sheer volume of literature out there means that it's not likely (as opposed to TV and Newspapers, which you also mention - those seem much more limited to me "did you see X show last night" is more likely to meet with "yes" than "have you read X book") Plus, I read SF/F almost exclusively, and I have a few friends who also do, who I can sometimes discuss books with, but usually it ends up with each of us recommending their recent favorites to the other, though, because there's not enough that we've both read. I have no idea whether people who read "bestseller" books in the US would find more people able and willing to discuss the book they just read, though - my guess would be it's probably more common, but still not as common as you seem to be used to. That probably has to do with the "culture" here, which downplays intellectualism, and which sees reading as intellectualism. Interestingly, I have a real precedent for the BDG in my own recent past - the first college I went to (The Evergreen State College, in Olympia, WA), has a "non-traditional" teaching model, and one of the things they do is what they call "seminars". Seminars are when 20 or so students and one professor all read the same book (or part of a book) during the week, and meet once a week to discuss that book/section. Sometimes the professor would have to ask some beginning questions, or answer some questions, but they generally leave it up to the students to discuss among themselves. In addition to introducing new material (sometimes relevant to the rest of the curriculum, sometimes not), this system also encouraged critical thinking/reading skills. It also gave me a taste for how interesting it can be to hear a whole group of totally different perspectives on a piece of literature. -----Original Message----- From: Marina [mailto:my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 10:26 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG concerns BTW, even though I enjoy discussing the "pre-nominated" books, the whole concept of BDG still seems funny to me. I think the idea of "book discussion groups" is something purely American, or at least Western. I remember that I found it hilarious the first time I've heard of it. It sounded like "TV discussion group" or "newspaper discussion group" -- something rather artificial, you know. In my culture, people just read books and talked about them whenever they had time, with anyone. The same way as they would discuss Princess Diana's marriage or the latest economic reform, during the lunch break or over coffee at a friend's house. Eventually, I decided that people who are interested in books are so rare here that they have to make up all those structures just to find someone else like them. Was I right, or was it just the desire to organize everything that stood behind the idea of BDG's? Just curious. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:56:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Elgin's characters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm supposed to be doing Other Work, but have been still thinking about some comments on Elgin's work, especially what someone (don't remember the name, didn't save the post, sorry) saw as "straw characters." This comment reminded me of a discussion I had with someone at a conference about Joanna Russ' "anger" and how this person could not take it. I realized then that there's a generational issue. I was born in the fifties and raised in a small town in Idaho where the sixties never came; I am now in my forties. I wasn't old enough to be an adult during the sixties and seventies feminist movement, but I grew up in that culture--and had to fight my way out on my own (not finding feminist work until LATE in graduate school). So I resonate to Russ' and Elgin's anger. They were adults during the fifties, and Russ still has a LOT to say about that decade. I had the following experiences growing up as a girl: my father thought it would be a good idea to buy an old clunker car and restore it with my brother and me (and some of the other neighborhood kids), and then we'd have a car to drive. But the BOYS (my brother and the other kids--there were no girls my age in the neighborhood--and we lived 3 miles out of town) refused to work on anything if a GIRL was involved. So, no car. (Granted, a parental unit might have handled this better, but still...) When I went in for the required courtesy interview with the head of the History Department as an incoming freshMAN, he told me flat out that no matter how badly I did (and he assumed I would) that I'd still get a job because of all of this blankety blank affirmative action (way back in 1973 this was). I could tell you a hundred more stories of how I, was a GIRL, was given to understand that the ONLY possible role in life was to marry and have children. Science fiction, by the way, was one of my major escape routes, although reading in general was too. My experiences lead me to NOT see Elgin's male characters as "straw men." They are the men I grew up with! (And note that she does make distinctions between the men in terms of their treatment of women--they're not all one note, but they are the product of their culture.) They express the same ideas I grew up fighting--they just have the backup of legislation making women's position LEGAL. And while horrible things do happen to women in the book--historically, those are the horrible things which happen to women. You cannot pretend that such oppression did not occur. The scary thing about oppression (*racial*gender*sexuality*class*etc) that I have come to realize in my own old age is that the system is upheld by NICE NORMAL PEOPLE. Shudder. I know that things have changed (although not always as much as people say), and I understand why some of the earlier feminist works are viewed differently by younger people. It is a different world. And my posting here is perilously close to *EEK* reader response theory (it took me years to overcome my conditioning enough to actually go for a Ph.D. in Literature instead of just MA degrees--and part of what did it was being an adjunct and seeing what idiots had Ph.D.'s--hey, if they could do it, so could I). But it's true--our own background, experiences, etc. do affect how we read. And so I do not see Elgin's characters as straw men--although, as another poster commented in regard to Tepper's work, her future world is very white and homogeneous. (That changes a bit in the later books in the trilogy.) Oh, a sidenote--as I said in an earlier posting, I taught this book in a theme advanced composition class. I presented all the feminist theories as THEORIES--to be explored. Students gathered data (from counting who asked questions in class to taping conversations and analyzing them), and amazingly enough (hee hee hee) though all my students started by saying that of course THEIR GENERATION was DIFFERENT, all their data tended to support the feminist claims of gender differences in language use (the racial issue gets a bit more complicatd of course, and NONE of the scholarship really touched onthat, which is whY I don't teach that course anymore). But the struggle students had when their data (that they gathered, based on their own observations of themselves and their friends) did not support what they wanted to say was darned heartwarming for a sneakily subversive feminist teacher.... Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980721045420.006a86ec@Silent-Running.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's true that the world 15 hundred years ago was different from what it is now, at least in Britain. (Believe it or not, but there are plenty of places on Earth where things have not changed a bit!). However, concerning King Arthur and his family, no one really knows what things were like back then, or even whether these people actually existed. People who write Arthurian stories now do it from today's perspective, whether they like it or not. And since we know nothing about those times, how does one way to present "strong women" is more likely to be realistic than another? Every author simply make it the way _she_ want to see it. What is really funny, is the fact that we have a bunch of people that cite one 20th-century version of the story to disprove another group's point of view based on another 20th century version of the same story. With the variety of interpretations existing, everyone simply chooses the one that they like the most and uses it as "the way it actually happened". Concerning the validity of "judging the characters by today's standards", the fact is that the book was not written in the 5th century, either. It's a modern book and should be seen as such. I'm more than sure that a hundred years from now, all these conflicting versions of Arthurian world existing today will tell more about our own views and ideas than those of the ancient Britain. The Mists of Avalon is a late 20th century fantasy, with certain late 20th century attitudes towards women present all over it. And that's what we were mainly discussing, in my opinion. That's what we seemed to be arguing about, anyway. Finally, if certain things that are unacceptable today were OK in another time period, that does not make them any better. Time difference is basically a culture difference. There are modern-day societies that explain their treatment of women as "part of their tradition". For example, Saudi Arabia, where women are not allowed to leave home without covering themselves from head to toes and being accompanied by a male relative. They use the same excuse -- it's a different culture, so these things cannot be judged by the rules of another culture, namely the Western one. I'm not even talking about cruelties like genital mutilation that are also defended as "part of different culture". My point is, opression is oppression, and you have to either judge things by one certain standard, or excuse everything as part of "different time/place/culture". Unless one can explain why their ancient ancestors deserve more slack for their actions towards women than the modern-day medieval societies. Because if "they lived in a different time" is an excuse, you'll have to recognize the fact that Saudi Arabia still lives in a different time. And so does Afghanistan, China, and to some extent, American Bible Belt. Does that make their attitudes towards women OK? (E.g. the headline in my school paper concerning recent concert of Lilith Fair -- all women rock concert -- in Oklahoma City: "Lilith Fair is Aimed to Destroy Families". The editor wrote it. I think his latest feature was dedicated to "the practice of legally murdering babies"). In any case, I don't think we should restrict ourselves to what could be "realistic" for Arthurian society. It could be a feminist utopia, or a Communist country, for all we know. All "evidence" that we have of it are specualations of much later time that probably reflect the ideas of the time they were written as much as today's books reflect ours. What what I know, the first stories about King Arthur were born of the late-middle-ages fascination with the dying world of "knighthood". They had a lot more 15th century agenda in it than historical facts. It reminds me of reading all those Dumas stories as a kid -- Three Musketeers, etc., and being fascinated with all those duels, romantic adventures, and that kind of stuff that became my idea of living in 17th century. And then, I read Manon Lescaut, which was actually written at the time described by Dumas. It had absolutely nothing about duels, matters of honor, romantic adventures of nobility, or anything of that kind. Musketeers were mentioned briefly, just as some sort of cops, with nothing altogether heroic about them. And the whole book was about a sorry fate of a "fallen" woman and extensive philosophical musing on the subject of her life. That was the point when I realized that Three Musketeers had nothing to do with the time it described. It was all about 19th century and its hung-ups on romantic courtship. 17-century people were preoccupied with completely different things. It all comes down to the fact that no time that have passed can be adequately re-created as it really had been. The documents created by the culture itself are inaccurate because they are always affected by how the people wanted to see themselves rather than how they really were. The documents created outside the culture are not accurate because they are affected by the political struggles of the time between the culture discribed and the culture (often a competing one) of the person describing. And once it is gone, everyone starts assigning to the vanished culture whatever they see fit. So eventually it gets assigned some sort of "staple" phenomenon -- like the "knighthood" at King's Arthur's court -- that gets to be reinterpreted by generations to come. Another example I know from my own experience is the Soviet Union. No one really knows what life there was like. Because its own books and movies described it as all-positive "people's country" where everyone's happy, with no problems whatsoever. Western books and movies described it as The Evil Empire, with no one smiling, and full of idiotic stuff like snow in the summer and bears on the streets of Moscow. Even people who remember it now, remember it differently, depending on whether their own life got better or worse. In other words, once something is gone, it becomes fantasy material, one way or another, even seven years later, not 15 hundred. So we can pretty much assume anything about the "reality" of the Mists. No one assumption would be much further from reality than any other. Marina On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > One thing that has humored me in all of this thread of discussion is how we > women today think in terms of a feminist-aware female in the 20th century > applies their own realm of knowledge and existance to a time they never been > to or can only experience through the historian eye, the social-historian > eye, or through an author's eye, as portrayed in MZB's work here... > > I just finished reading Guinevere by Norma Lorre Goodrich, and although > parts of it were hard to decipher, it gave me a perspective of how difficult > it was to piece together the life of a women whom many say (historically) > existed at one time over our human existance...unless an intact parchment > falls into a prominent historian's lap in the immediate future all we have > to base tales of speculation such as portrayed by MZB are the fragments, > stone-carved monuments, and artifacts dated to be from that historical era. > In the Goodrich book, Guinevere has many different names attributed to her > person, as well as many connections to not only Scotland, but to Ireland, > and Finland as well through folklore mythologies...One trouble with dealing > with historical fragments and incorporating human qualities into a fictional > work, is sometimes you have parameters within which to work in the fictional > creative aspects you are prescribing to...that said, say if MZB had written > of a female character in her work who was self-assured, and exemplified the > essence of a "modern woman" or a "feminist-ideal," it would not have been > true to the story MZB was creating, and would be out of place for where > this particular creation was heading...now another work that I believe MZB > had written where the female protagonist was a very strong self assured > person to a degree in the time she was living in was the work Cassandra. > There was more leeway with that novel due to the role of the female in those > times, when dealing with priestesses, women had more of an opportunity to > flourish as self-aware beings through their spiritual roles... > > Also, the Goodrich book is very well-researched, and gives various accounts > of seeing Guinevere as a Pict Priestess, one who was annointed and barefoot, > the sign of someone on the upper echelon of a religious servitude. > > > Jo Ann > > > > At 02:26 PM 7/20/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu [128.248.100.54] by > WGSERVER.Silent-Running.com with smtp > > id BCAHBOEH ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:07:30 -0500 > >Received: from piglet.cc.uic.edu (PIGLET.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.100.54]) > > by piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA86520; > > Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:07:25 -0500 > >Received: from LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release > > 1.8c) with spool id 122345 for FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU; Wed, 15 > > Jul 1998 20:05:54 -0500 > >Received: from broncho.ucok.edu (broncho.ucok.edu [192.206.65.10]) by > > piglet.cc.uic.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA69508 for > > ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:51 -0500 > >Received: (from my0203@localhost) by broncho.ucok.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id > > UAA14136; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:16 -0500 (CDT) > >Message-ID: > >Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:05:16 -0500 > >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >From: Marina > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG MOA, sexuality > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >In-Reply-To: <001a01bdaf70$00967420$c0272299@default> > > > >I still think that Nimue/Kevin story was extremely disgusting. The whole > >concept of raising the girl in isolation just to sacrifice her body, and > >in the end, her life for a political game seems to me pretty > >unjustified, to put it mild. "Punishing" Kevin did not carry any > >practical meaning in saving Avalon or make any difference in the > >political situation. It was a simple, primitive, KGB-style political > >revenge against a "dissident". Using a body of a 14-year-old girl for > >that was IMHO sexual exploitation. > > > >It seems to me that Avalon priestesses were caught in what is called the > >self-perpetuating circle of abuse. First, Vivian almost destroyed Morgaine by > >making her screw her brother. Then Morgaine destroyed Nimue, also "for the > >sake of a high cause". And each of them is being very self-righteous > >about it: "I went through it, so you have to as well. That's life, > >baby" or something pretty damn close. Just like those families where > >parents rape their children who then grow up and rape their own children, > >and so on, perpetually... > > > >Why is it that female sexuality always have to "serve" some "high > >purpose"? How is standing in for "the land" (an object) in the inauguration > >ceremony of a king is better than being married to a stranger as a free > >supplement to your father's horses? In Kevin's cause, it was not even a > >"marriage to the land", he was not a king, but a traitor. He would > >probably die by himself couple years later, or get burned at a stake by > >his new buddies-the priests. What was the point of sacrificing the > >girl? Especially considering the fact that she was the only one who > >could take over after Morgaine. They talked so much that there was > >almost no one left to take over as the next High Priestess, and they simply > >threw away their only hope. > > > >The main point of Christianity was also that "sex is not a plaything". > >Avalon's position on it does not seem any better. Having sex only for > >procreation, or only "to please the Goddess", either way is only a "sacred > >duty" that women must surrender to, whether they like it or not. Why is it > >that male sexuality is never used as a form of spiritual currency? > > > >>The freedom to treat great spiritual truths lightly doesn't seem to > >> me to be much of a freedom. Morgause's sexual promiscuity was frowned upon > >> because it involved no bond with the land or even with the men she chose, > >> no bond at all. It was a plaything, and the religion did not see sex as a > >> plaything. I don't find that attitude oppressive, I find it liberating > >> to know we each possess this power. > > > >I think what robs a person of the potential for growth is when she kills > >herself at the age of 14 after being used as a hooker by her primary > >caretakers for the sake of their social intrigues. One cannot grow > >when she's dead. Honestly, Nimue's story alone made me feel that Avalon > >got what it deserved. Maybe it had been a great spiritual power at some > >point, but by the time described in Mists it seemed to degrade into a bunch > >of control freaks who did not want to relinquish their power over the > >country and would stop at nothing to keep it. IMHO. > > > >Marina > > > >P.S.I really liked The Mists of Avalon. It's a beautiful tragic story (at > >least most of the time). But if it was for real and accurately > >represented historical facts, I would be glad that Avalon lost its power. > >I think I would hate to live in a world ruled by psychics. It's bad enough > >when they advise to the spouses of presidents... > > > >http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > is selling at the time." > > Naomi Wolf > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Silent Running BBS, Riverside, California. > > 2 MajorMUD games, 3 LORD games and 2 Tradewars games > > WWW.Silent-Running.com / telnet Silent-Running.com > > 909-343-2030 > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:52:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: _Native Tongue_ In-Reply-To: <199807211636.LAA09037@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> from "Robin Reid" at Jul 21, 98 11:36:08 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [snip] I'm not sure who I'm quoting here, sorry. > Some commentary on whether or not Suzette Haden Elgin's _Native Tongue_ > would be a good early book to recommend to anyone (male or not) interested > in feminist sf--I taught the book in sophomore college courses to a mixed > group of students during the eighties when the anti feminist backlash was at > its worst. The students (it was an advanced composition class) actually had [snip] And don't forget the rest of the books in the _Native Tongue_ series: _The Judas Rose_ and _Earth Song_. Of the three I found the first two the most interesting; I liked the culture that the women of the lines created. She also has a dictionary _A First Dictionary and Grammar of L'Aadan_ which I'd love to get my hands on. The final book _Earth Song_ just wasn't my cup of tea. L'Aadan and the examination of the culture of the women of the lines has been abandoned for what I think is a confusing story about what happens after the aliens leave the earth. Take care, Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:17:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: _Native Tongue_ In-Reply-To: <199807211952.PAA19331@galileo.cris.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Caroline Couture wrote: > She also has a dictionary _A First Dictionary and Grammar of L'Aadan_ > which I'd love to get my hands on. The final book _Earth Song_ just wasn't > my cup of tea. L'Aadan and the examination of the culture of the women of > the lines has been abandoned for what I think is a confusing story about > what happens after the aliens leave the earth. > Write to her at PO Box 1137, Huntsville AR, 72740. She also has a newsletter which is totally wonderful.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:27:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Elgin too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI, Suzette Haden Elgin has a new book out on Abbeville Press. Their lead title for Fall. It is called 'The Grandmother Principles'. She will be touring with it as well in Sept. And there will be a website on it. Lets start annoying those booksellers for copies now! (hint hint Mary-Elizabeth, http://www.mystgalaxy.com ) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:39:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: BDG MOA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Mists of Avalon is a late 20th century fantasy, >with certain late 20th century attitudes towards women present all over >it.> And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. MOA was the perfect antidote for women yearning to see the possibility of _themselves_ as instruments of history. MOA was an extraordinary 'consciousness raising' tool and an extraordinary gift to women readers world wide. This can be said of MZBs work throughout the 60/70's I am here to give her a major roar of approval for what she has done so very well for so very long. And she can reject the labels I choose every day and twice on Sunday and I will still be here cheering. How many of us could write a book that would stand up without flaw to the kind of scrutiny we give the books read in the BDG? donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:41:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: _Native Tongue_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to add my hurrah for SHE's newsletter Linguistics & Science Fiction. Always an absorbing read. On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:17:18 -0700 Pat writes: >On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Caroline Couture wrote: > > Write to her at PO Box 1137, Huntsville AR, 72740. She also >has >a newsletter which is totally wonderful.> > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:06:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think she had a very understated but effective racial melding background in "A Plague of Angels", where "black"and "white" were understood to refer to long-defunct tribal groupings. The hero-heroine pair in the cover illustration are certainly not WASPy! We discussed the homosexuality cop-out in Woman's Country a little while ago, but I don't recall ever even thinking about race. (The damn book still knocks me for a loop every time and I guess getting analytical is an effort, though I realize that's being sloppy-minded. Just being myself, sigh.) > >Gibbon's Decline and Fall is a bit like some committees I've sat on -- >one or two of everything present, and if you can combine some, even >better (e.g. black woman lesbian). A white heterosexual universe >with >some other stuff thrown in -- after all, it's the 1990s, right? >Finally -- Family Tree. Yup, it's a white universe there too, at >least >in the 20th century world. Can't win, can she? :) But even imperfect, aren't we glad we've got her! Heinlein pulled a neat race-thing in one of his (I think intended for Young Adult) books (title has dropped out of my mind, sorry, was it "Tunnel" something?), hero was not revealed to be non-white until well on in the book, and that only in a casual conversation. And come to think of it, wasn't Podkayne of New Guinea descent? I guess I have to go reread Heinlein sometime soon: he was certainly a mindblowing experience during my increasingly distant youth, before various other aspects started bugging me. He did have strong female characters. (If only ONE of his heroines hadn't been avid to tend babies at every opportunity! But he did know his cats!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:22:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Heinlein pulled a neat race-thing in one of his (I think intended for Young Adult) books (title has dropped out of my mind, sorry, was it "Tunnel" something?), hero was not revealed to be non-white until well on in the book, and that only in a casual conversation. << If I remember correctly, that was Starship Troopers -- despite the anglo-ization of the character in the recent movie. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:29:24 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Heidi H." Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) Content-Type: text/plain >Heinlein pulled a neat race-thing in one of his (I think intended for >Young Adult) books (title has dropped out of my mind, sorry, was it >"Tunnel" something?) "Tunnel in the Sky", a great book! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:47:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hiya, Thanks for your very eloquent and well thought out reply. Will do the best I can to reflect as I reply: t 02:30 PM 7/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >It's true that the world 15 hundred years ago was different from what it >is now, at least in Britain. (Believe it or not, but there are plenty of >places on Earth where things have not changed a bit!). True, and there are good things that go with the bad as well, sometimes I wish there was a time where all we know is good, but then again... However, >concerning King Arthur and his family, no one really knows what things >were like back then, or even whether these people actually existed. >People who write Arthurian stories now do it from today's perspective, >whether they like it or not. And since we know nothing about those times, >how does one way to present "strong women" is more likely to be realistic >than another? Every author simply make it the way _she_ want to see it. This is true to a degree. No matter what details from history the end work of a writer is her perspective...what is taken into consideration are the parameters of what we know about the time we are writing about, if the intent is to portray that time to be a reflection of their perspective...for example, say I took on for a subject matter to write about, Mary Queen of Scots. And I wanted to use the parameters of the time she lived in in order to have a framework for the life that will be shown on the page to the reader...now, what if she thought of a way to get herself out of her predicament of facing a death sentence but that method involved elements that no matter how you spell it, show her as a character and as a woman, to basically sell her soul. If she at the end of the story survived her ordeal, and was left to rue about the decision she made, within the parameters of the story, what I would ask myself as the creator of the text, what does she want to do about this? The extentsion of the creator of the text to the character fo the text, something happens here that many people have tried to explain for hundreds of years...when the character drives the story, and the creator goes into the backround as the action proceeds, this is where the creative drive takes over, and the result is this version of the story the writer is attempting to tell. What fascinates me to no end, having chosen the writing profession (and thus a life of endless torment grin), is when I have the opportunity to read many versions of the same text. Someday when finances afford me I intend to look up a copy of some of Hemingway's drafts, to see the migration process of ideas from draft to final form...come to think of it, I wonder if there are succeeding different drafts of this particular book that may reflect a totally different outcome than the one that made the final form? > >What is really funny, is the fact that we have a bunch of people that cite >one 20th-century version of the story to disprove another group's point of >view based on another 20th century version of the same story. With the >variety of interpretations existing, everyone simply chooses the one that >they like the most and uses it as "the way it actually happened". Just about a week ago, I got wind of this discussion goin on about whether or not Jesus has decendents and the implications of it for this century...and when I found the mailing list having this discussion there were two poles of perspective going on in the threads: one from those wanting to discuss historical proofs of the subject being discussed, and the other those driven by faith and belief to basically say YOU ARE WRONG AND WE ARE RIGHT SO END OF SUBJECT, giggle. What humored me so about this was when I was married and a church going Nazarene housewife, I must admit I was one of the latter group for seven years...what is so sad to me thinking about all this now, are how so many people in the world today cannot afford to see a situation from a different perspective for fear they may be shaken loose from their belief tree and left floating amidst some imaginary quagmire of damnation and certain brimstone proportions...in a perfect world yes, everyone would choose their own interpretation, and in that regard, I see oppression in different forms...fact is tradition is a powerful, powerful thing, from the perspective of a student, I was introduced to Stanley Fish, a literary critic, who challenged my way of belief in that to question where it is the text was originated from: the educational institution providing my education. Took me a good three weeks to understand what was being presented to me, the thought that what is being shown to me inside the classroom reflects an institutional POV and subsequently limits myself from entertaining another view outside of the institution, was quite shaking to me...I thought that because I was already questioning the authors text inside the classroom that this was what we were taught as children to "question authority." Now this authority challenges me to question the source of my educational fountain...was not an easy thing to take in believe me... > >Concerning the validity of "judging the characters by today's standards", >the fact is that the book was not written in the 5th century, either. >It's a modern book and should be seen as such. I'm more than sure that a >hundred years from now, all these conflicting versions of Arthurian world >existing today will tell more about our own views and ideas than those of >the ancient Britain. The Mists of Avalon is a late 20th century fantasy, >with certain late 20th century attitudes towards women present all over >it. And that's what we were mainly discussing, in my opinion. That's what >we seemed to be arguing about, anyway. I see part of what you are saying. There are a few different schools of thought regarding works that are set in the past: that one may see it from today's perspective , or looking only at the text itself , and (had to pull out my notes hehe) the study of power in relationshships in literature , and the study of the human mind and/or its struggles with itself and the outside world . Perhaps we are not actually arguing, but seeing the text from totally different perspectives eh? Am enjoying this discussion immensely. > >Finally, if certain things that are unacceptable today were OK in another >time period, that does not make them any better. Time difference is >basically a culture difference. There are modern-day societies that >explain their treatment of women as "part of their tradition". For >example, Saudi Arabia, where women are not allowed to leave home without >covering themselves from head to toes and being accompanied by a male >relative. They use the same excuse -- it's a different culture, so these >things cannot be judged by the rules of another culture, namely the >Western one. I'm not even talking about cruelties like genital >mutilation that are also defended as "part of different culture". > >My point is, opression is oppression, and you have to either judge >things by one certain standard, or excuse everything as part of >"different time/place/culture". Unless one can explain why their ancient >ancestors deserve more slack for their actions towards women than >the modern-day medieval societies. Because if "they lived in a different >time" is an excuse, you'll have to recognize the fact that Saudi Arabia still >lives in a different time. And so does Afghanistan, China, and to some >extent, American Bible Belt. Does that make their attitudes towards >women OK? (E.g. the headline in my school paper concerning recent >concert of Lilith Fair -- all women rock concert -- in Oklahoma City: >"Lilith Fair is Aimed to Destroy Families". The editor wrote it. I >think his latest feature was dedicated to "the practice of legally >murdering babies"). > >In any case, I don't think we should restrict ourselves to what could be >"realistic" for Arthurian society. It could be a feminist utopia, or a >Communist country, for all we know. All "evidence" that we have of it >are specualations of much later time that probably reflect the ideas of >the time they were written as much as today's books reflect ours. What >what I know, the first stories about King Arthur were born of the >late-middle-ages fascination with the dying world of "knighthood". They >had a lot more 15th century agenda in it than historical facts. > >It reminds me of reading all those Dumas stories as a kid -- Three >Musketeers, etc., and being fascinated with all those duels, romantic >adventures, and that kind of stuff that became my idea of living in 17th >century. And then, I read Manon Lescaut, which was actually written at the >time described by Dumas. It had absolutely nothing about duels, matters of >honor, romantic adventures of nobility, or anything of that kind. >Musketeers were mentioned briefly, just as some sort of cops, with nothing >altogether heroic about them. And the whole book was about a sorry fate >of a "fallen" woman and extensive philosophical musing on the subject of >her life. That was the point when I realized that Three Musketeers had >nothing to do with the time it described. It was all about 19th century >and its hung-ups on romantic courtship. 17-century people were >preoccupied with completely different things. > >It all comes down to the fact that no time that have passed can be >adequately re-created as it really had been. The documents created by >the culture itself are inaccurate because they are always affected by how >the people wanted to see themselves rather than how they really were. >The documents created outside the culture are not accurate because they >are affected by the political struggles of the time between the culture >discribed and the culture (often a competing one) of the person >describing. And once it is gone, everyone starts assigning to the >vanished culture whatever they see fit. So eventually it gets assigned >some sort of "staple" phenomenon -- like the "knighthood" at King's >Arthur's court -- that gets to be reinterpreted by generations to come. > >Another example I know from my own experience is the Soviet Union. No >one really knows what life there was like. Because its own books and >movies described it as all-positive "people's country" where >everyone's happy, with no problems whatsoever. Western books and movies >described it as The Evil Empire, with no one smiling, and full of idiotic >stuff like snow in the summer and bears on the streets of Moscow. Even >people who remember it now, remember it differently, depending on whether >their own life got better or worse. In other words, once something is >gone, it becomes fantasy material, one way or another, even seven years >later, not 15 hundred. So we can pretty much assume anything about the >"reality" of the Mists. No one assumption would be much further from >reality than any other. > >Marina Thank you for sharing these examples. In the thread of this discussion, I have learned that this is a very invaluable forum for exchanges of ideas. It makes me appreciate the value even more of having the freedom to express what we think and feel, where in other parts of the world, many do not. Jo Ann > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:40:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephanie Jackson Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) In-Reply-To: <19980721.180909.-3879921.1.jjggww@juno.com> from "Frances Green" at Jul 21, 98 06:06:08 pm Content-Type: text > >Gibbon's Decline and Fall is a bit like some committees I've sat on -- > >one or two of everything present, and if you can combine some, even > >better (e.g. black woman lesbian). A white heterosexual universe > >with > >some other stuff thrown in -- after all, it's the 1990s, right? > >Finally -- Family Tree. Yup, it's a white universe there too, at > >least > >in the 20th century world. > > One thing I noticed with Family Tree is that the 'animal-types' were not portrayed as such until /well/ into the book. I didn't even notice until they came forward/back/whereever to the present day. Quite an achievement (or else I was truly tired that day.) -Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Few questions on other works... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Does anyone have the skinny on when Parable of The Talents may be released? Does Science Fiction Studies have a website or a contact address? Is there another work by Sharon Shinn on her Jovah books due to be released in the near future? Besides Woman On The Edge Of Time, are there other novels that depict a woman with mental illness who enters another dimension? (I have Parable of The Sower and have gone through the discussion about the protagonists affliction with her tolerance to pain etc...but am looking for actual instances when the woman enters a different world, not trying to exist in the one she is in aka a dystopian type work as Butler did)... Thanks in advance for your reply. Jo Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have enjoyed the comments in response to my note on race etc in Tepper's books. Frances Green said (of Tepper): "Can't win, can she? :) But even imperfect, aren't we glad we've got her!" Yes! It's much more fun to pick apart (and pick over) the work of really fine authors. Otherwise, where would all those doctoral disseratation topics come from? Academics would be out to sea without a paddle if we couldn't over-analyze *everything*. I pick apart Conrad too. He is also imperfect, but what would English literature be without him? Re: Stephanie's comment on Family Tree [caution -- *spoiler* -- stop reading here if you haven't read Family Tree!] and not knowing they were animals until the end. I didn't either, and neither did my husband. He walked in the door last Friday from a week-long business trip, tossed Family Tree on the table with a bookmark seven eighths of the way through, and said, "They're animals!" I do think the relations between the different tribes of animals was analogous to ethnic and racial relations among contemporary human beings. It was a magnificent slight of hand Tepper pulled there. *end of spoiler* Finally, somebody pointed out that this list had previously discussed the glib dismissal of homosexuality in The Gate to Women's Country. I guess I wasn't on the list yet. I also belong to an origami list that keeps a searchable archive of messages. Every time I post to the origami list, I check the archive to make sure that I am not repeating a well-beaten topic (e.g. "How do you make a stem for a Kawasaki rose?"). I know the FSFFU list has an archive, but it is on many separate links and not easily searchable. I would have searched for "Tepper" posts had the FSFFU archive permitted such a search to be done in substantially less than 45 minutes. A search in the origami archive takes 5 minutes. Is there any chance somebody out there could make the FSFFU archives keyword searchable? I would enjoy looking things up that way, and would feel less guilt about the probability of reposting something that had already been discussed. But there are always problems with list cultures. Even on the incredibly polite origami list, the community is sometimes irritated with newbies who don't search the archive before asking a well-worked question. You're better off admitting you can't fold a crane. Candice Bradley Appleton WI ( . . . now reading Tepper's *Grass*) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:11:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: Few questions on other works... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980721235819.006a6bec@Silent-Running.com> from "Jo Ann Rangel" at Jul 21, 98 04:58:19 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jo Ann sez: > Besides Woman On The Edge Of Time, are there other novels that depict a > woman with mental illness who enters another dimension? (I have Parable of > The Sower and have gone through the discussion about the protagonists > affliction with her tolerance to pain etc...but am looking for actual > instances when the woman enters a different world, not trying to exist in > the one she is in aka a dystopian type work as Butler did)... > Hmmm. Doesn't this also happen in Butler's _Kindred_? In that novel a woman finds herself moving better the present time and the civil war era. I can't recall her mental status so I don't know if she thinks she is going mad due to the time tripping or if she has problems before that happens. (I haven't read the book; I'm recalling what I've read about it.) Interestingly enough I didn't come across this in the SF section but in the "black studies" section of my local WaldenBooks. hth Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:22:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: books on and off BDG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:48 AM 7/21/98 +0100, Maryelizabeth wrote: > >I like the reminder about SPOILERS in particular, but am sure that if >someone is eager to discuss something now which isn't part of the formal >BDG for a few months, there is plenty of room on a list this diverse for >viewpoints to grow and be added by the time the formal discussion is here. >And also, just a reminder that there is no rule, AFAIK, about returning to >books which were previously discussed, like DREAMSNAKE or HALFWAY HUMAN. > No, there's no problem at all about returning to books we've already discussed. People join this list all the time and probably have some great new things to add. One suggestion: Laura's begun putting discussion-specific archive links on the BDG web page: http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/ If you weren't around for the original discussion, it would be polite to go through the archives to see what others have already said before you post your own comments. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:17:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Bradley's Cassandra In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980721045420.006a86ec@Silent-Running.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:54 PM 7/20/98 -0700, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: >...now another work that I believe MZB >had written where the female protagonist was a very strong self assured >person to a degree in the time she was living in was the work Cassandra. >There was more leeway with that novel due to the role of the female in those >times, when dealing with priestesses, women had more of an opportunity to >flourish as self-aware beings through their spiritual roles... > You know, I'd completely forgotten about that other book -- Firebrand I think it was. I read that a number of years ago and loved it! Full of strong, vibrant female characters. As Jo Ann said, believable for the time (such as someone ignorant of history as me *thinks* believable) but also they were characters I could identify with. Hard for me to imagine they're by the same author. Now I'm even wondering if they are, or this posting will just embarrass me. I guess what I'd have to do is go back to re-read Firebrand and see what I think of it now, after MOA. Now that I think about it, anyone who enjoys watching Xena ought to check out Firebrand. Another related book was Amazon Story Bones (can't remember the author offhand,) a YA novel I really enjoyed. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:00:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Elgin's characters In-Reply-To: <199807211756.MAA20279@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:56 PM 7/21/98 -0500, Robin Reid wrote: >I'm supposed to be doing Other Work, but have been still thinking about some >comments on Elgin's work, especially what someone (don't remember the name, >didn't save the post, sorry) saw as "straw characters." That would be me. > This comment reminded me of a discussion I had with someone > at a conference about Joanna Russ' "anger" and how this person > could not take it. I realized then that there's a generational issue. I > was born in the fifties and raised in a small town in Idaho where the > sixties never came; I am now in my forties. I wasn't old enough to be > an adult during the sixties and seventies feminist movement, but I grew > up in that culture--and had to fight my way out on my own (not finding > feminist work until LATE in graduate school). So I resonate to Russ' > and Elgin's anger. They were adults during the fifties, and Russ still > has a LOT to say about that decade. It's good to hear another in-depth opinion on the subject. I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe that my age has anything to do with my opinion of Elgin. I harbor plenty of anger towards men and felt an incredible rush of catharsis when I read Russ' *The Female Man*. So it wasn't Elgin's anger that bothered me -- it was her patronizing tone, particularly toward the male characters. If men were really so predictable and stupid as they ultimately all are in the Native Tongue books, they would not be so hard to overthrow. This is what I meant when I described them as "straw men", the definition being "an argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated." As Elgin said in a message to this very mailing list on September 27th of last year, she was raised in the Ozarks where it is taught that "(1) when men do most things well it's an accident, that (2) it's a woman's responsibility to clean up the messes men make and protect men from the consequences of those messes as far as possible, and that (3) it's a woman's responsibility to see to it that men never know about (1) and (2)." "It's reverse sexism of the most maternalistic kind," she said and admitted struggling against it in herself; I found her struggle unsuccessful in the Native Tongue books. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:26:46 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: A Few questions on other works...and its response. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-07-21 21:34:00 EDT, you write: << > Besides Woman On The Edge Of Time, are there other novels that depict a > woman with mental illness who enters another dimension? > Hmmm. Doesn't this also happen in Butler's _Kindred_?.... Interestingly enough I didn't come across this in the SF section but in the "black studies" section of my local WaldenBooks. >> ---No novel comes immediately to mind, but Alice "Racoona" Sheldon's "Your Faces, O My Sisters! Your Faces Filled With Light!" (if I remember the title correctly. Sheldon, of course, published most of her sf as James Tiptree, Jr.) fits your specs, except the protagonist doesn't "objectively" enter another reality, in the story. Bob Shaw's THE TWO-TIMERS is a flawed novel that fits your requirements, except with the further flaw in this context that the protagonist who passes into another reality via migraine headaches and disorientation is male. Since Butler has won the McArthur, and since she's often held up as the only A-A woman sf writer (she might be nearly the only to make her primary living this way, sadly), the bookstore placement doesn't surprise me. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:10:26 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Bradley's Cassandra Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" you are right I have the book stored away it is Firebrand...thank you for remembering I always think of it as the Cassandra book for some reason and I first read it when I was 16-17 yrs old grin... At 06:17 PM 7/21/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 09:54 PM 7/20/98 -0700, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: >>..now another work that I believe MZB >>had written where the female protagonist was a very strong self assured >>person to a degree in the time she was living in was the work Cassandra. >>There was more leeway with that novel due to the role of the female in those >>times, when dealing with priestesses, women had more of an opportunity to >>flourish as self-aware beings through their spiritual roles... >> > >You know, I'd completely forgotten about that other book -- Firebrand I >think it was. I read that a number of years ago and loved it! Full of >strong, vibrant female characters. As Jo Ann said, believable for the time >(such as someone ignorant of history as me *thinks* believable) but also >they were characters I could identify with. Hard for me to imagine >they're by the same author. Now I'm even wondering if they are, or this >posting will just embarrass me. > >I guess what I'd have to do is go back to re-read Firebrand and see what I >think of it now, after MOA. > >Now that I think about it, anyone who enjoys watching Xena ought to check >out Firebrand. Another related book was Amazon Story Bones (can't remember >the author offhand,) a YA novel I really enjoyed. > >Jennifer > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:34:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: A Few questions on other works...and its response. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for you fast reply...am in the midst of rerouting some posts because am having duplicate server problems so will answer both replies here: I got to investigate Kindred when last summer I did a research project on Parable Of The Sower, the issue I chose to address was the issue of self-empowerment...anyway, am asking about the specifics of a woman entering a different dimension aka parallel universe etc, is I have started a draft of my take on it and wanted to see what approaches the other authors had when dealing with how they got their protagonist into the other world/dimension...and just have not seen much done where the protagonist is afflicted with a mental illness and enters another place another time etc...out of Butler's works btw I loved Wild Seed the best, the concept of a woman who could become an animal i.e. an eagle or a dolphin, and be completely free from the control of another being, appealed to me very much...to be completely free to exist as you are and not have a master over you, or a boss over you or an authority anything over you was worth the read here I must say...8) oh and Kindred was excellent as well and I hope to be able to slowly savor it sometime, my assignment in 6 weeks last summer was to do an incredible amount of legwork thus I could not do that text the justice it deserved. At 10:26 PM 7/21/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-21 21:34:00 EDT, you write: > ><< > Besides Woman On The Edge Of Time, are there other novels that depict a > > woman with mental illness who enters another dimension? > > > Hmmm. Doesn't this also happen in Butler's _Kindred_?.... > Interestingly enough I didn't come across this in the SF section but in > the "black studies" section of my local WaldenBooks. > >> >---No novel comes immediately to mind, but Alice "Racoona" Sheldon's "Your >Faces, O My Sisters! Your Faces Filled With Light!" (if I remember the title >correctly. Sheldon, of course, published most of her sf as James Tiptree, >Jr.) fits your specs, except the protagonist doesn't "objectively" enter >another reality, in the story. Bob Shaw's THE TWO-TIMERS is a flawed novel >that fits your requirements, except with the further flaw in this context that >the protagonist who passes into another reality via migraine headaches and >disorientation is male. >Since Butler has won the McArthur, and since she's often held up as the only >A-A woman sf writer (she might be nearly the only to make her primary living >this way, sadly), the bookstore placement doesn't surprise me. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:07:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Re: A Few questions on other works...and its response. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << > Besides Woman On The Edge Of Time, are there other novels that depict a > > woman with mental illness who enters another dimension? The discussion of this and Kindred immediately reminded me of Charlotte Perkins Gillman's Herland. Then I realized Herland doesn't fit your criteria. However, Gillman's short story "The Yellow Wallpaper" might, although I think it's a feminist horror story rather than sf. cb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:08:52 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Ms.Devilspin (jenn)" Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Im new to this group. This subject interests me as I would consider myself a witch, but more from a personal interpritation of ancient beliefs than following any of this new stuff. Ive found most of it to be a waste of time and sometimes even stupid! There are too many people running around saying 'this is how it should be done', or inventing rituals etc and claiming them to be traditional. Its a difficult area to get real information on. At 11:06 20/07/98 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/20/98 1:44:24 PM, Debra wrote: > ><question, with some of those who profess pagan or Wiccan beliefs >swearing that there is a long oral tradition of their beliefs, while >there are those who say that the modern pagan movement is mostly a >pastiche of legend, romantic tales, bad history, and wishful >thinking. I'm afraid that I'm one of the latter. I am, however, >open to any *serious* suggestions of reading material, but, I warn >you, I've already read the common texts (such as "Drawing Down the >Moon") and found them wanting in hard evidence and logical >development.>> > >"Pagans" and "Wiccans" are not interchangable words. A lot of people seeking >alternative spirituality have gone back to ancient texts, most of which are >provided by archeology -- Ancient world beliefs, definitely pagan but not what >is commonly called "Wicca." The later is probably a patische, and most >certianly was highly influenced by the Gardners in this century, but that does >not make it invalid as a spiritual path. > >"...hard evidence and logical development" are pretty hard come by in matters >of religion. As Joseph Campbell once remarked (and I paraphrase): if the >existence of deity has to be "proven" what's the value of faith? > >best, >Phoebe >Phoebe Wray >zozie@aol.com > > ~*If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.*~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:11:32 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Ms.Devilspin (jenn)" Subject: Re: pagan nomenclature -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" See I dont actually consider it a religion, to me anyway. Its a belief sure, but Im not interested in a bunch of rituals and worship. >>>The later is probably a patische, and most certianly was highly >influenced by the Gardners in this century, but that does not make it >invalid as a spiritual path. > >I didn't say that Wicca is invalid as a spiritual path--people can >believe anything they want, as far as I'm concerned. They can even >pray to the impertubable yellow marshmallow god, for all I care. I'm >an atheist. > >>>"...hard evidence and logical development" are pretty hard come by >in matters >of religion. As Joseph Campbell once remarked (and I paraphrase): if >the >existence of deity has to be "proven" what's the value of faith? > >But there's a difference between faith, theology, and history of >religion. For example, I may not be a fan of the Catholic Church, >but the staggering amount of research and the beautifully realized >logical arguments of Catholic theology can only be admired. I may >not agree with their conclusions, but I admire how they got there. I >never get so inspired by New Age religions. > >Debra > > ~*If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.*~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: _Native Tongue_ (and other Elgin stuff) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've enjoyed everything Suzette's written...the Native Tongue books are the best (I agree that the first two are the strongest), but the Ozark and Coyote Jones books are fun. Maybe someone can remind me of the title, but there was a story where people took tests to find their future profession and a girl tested out for Poet which was Just Not Done. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:39:52 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: BDG MOA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's my delurk about Mists of Avalon... I re-read it recently, and I still found it enjoyable, but I had a very heightened sense of sadness about how most of the characters failed in their quests. I chalk up the failure to the Divine telling mortals that there's no way they can have everything happen the way they wish. I don't remember having this feeling quite as strongly when I read it first all these years ago. To be honest, I've got the other two books at home in the TBRead pile, and I haven't gotten around to them for years. I'm wondering if they will only heighten this mood that the first book brought on. I have enough angst in Real Life right now to wonder if I need to wallow in more fictional angst. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:42:33 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Elgin too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit donna simone wrote: > > FYI, Suzette Haden Elgin has a new book out on Abbeville Press. Their > lead title for Fall. It is called 'The Grandmother Principles'. She will > be touring with it as well in Sept. And there will be a website on it. > Lets start annoying those booksellers for copies now! (hint hint > Mary-Elizabeth, http://www.mystgalaxy.com ) I second the hint, and would like to hear more about this book.... Is it non-fiction? Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/