Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9807D" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:19:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Few questions on other works... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980721235819.006a6bec@Silent-Running.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > Hello, > > Does Science Fiction Studies have a website or a contact address? > > I'm not sure what the official contact address is, but the editor, Art Evans's e-mail address is aevans@depauw.edu Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:16:32 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Finding former postings on specific subjects In-Reply-To: <35B53A5D.8486E50C@athenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Jul 98 ? wrote: ... > origami list that keeps a searchable archive of messages. Every > time I post to the origami list, I check the archive to make sure > that I am not repeating a well-beaten topic (e.g. "How do you make a > stem for a Kawasaki rose?"). I know the FSFFU list has an archive, > but it is on many separate links and not easily searchable. I > would have searched for "Tepper" posts had the FSFFU archive > permitted such a search to be done in substantially less than 45 > minutes. A search in the origami archive takes 5 minutes. Is > there any chance somebody out there could make the FSFFU archives > keyword searchable? I would enjoy looking things up that way, and Sometime ago I had the same experience with the archive on Laura's website so I studied the listserv manual. At that time I wanted to find out what had been said about Leona Gom's _The Y Chromosome_ so far. That's how it is done: Step 1: Send the command search feministsf word1 to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU , NOT to the list itself. In my case word1 = Gom. After a few minutes one should receive a message from the listserv with - a list of all messages ever in which word1 appeared anywhere. In my case all messages containing Gomez also were included. - the command one has to send to get a message containing these messages in full. - excerpts of all the relevant messages so one can exclude not relevant messages from the command. Step 2: Send the command, eventually after erasing some post numbers, GETPOST FEMINISTSF number1 number2 ... to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU . Number1 etc. are the numbers of the relevant postings. After some time one should receive a message from the listserv with all the requested postings in full. It is really a simple process, I hope I did not present it in a too complicated way. There are further search options. They can be found out if the command info refcard is sent to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU . Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:09:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Re: Finding former postings on specific subjects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wonderfully clear instructions! It did not occur to me that I could search through the listserv. Thanks. Candice > Sometime ago I had the same experience with the archive on Laura's > website so I studied the listserv manual. At that time I wanted to > find out what had been said about Leona Gom's _The Y Chromosome_ so > far. That's how it is done: > > Step 1: Send the command > > search feministsf word1 > > to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU , NOT to the list itself. In my case > word1 = Gom. > > After a few minutes one should receive a message from the > listserv with > > - a list of all messages ever in which word1 appeared anywhere. In my > case all messages containing Gomez also were included. > - the command one has to send to get a message containing these > messages in full. > - excerpts of all the relevant messages so one can exclude not > relevant messages from the command. > > Step 2: Send the command, eventually after erasing some post numbers, > > GETPOST FEMINISTSF number1 number2 ... > > to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU . Number1 etc. are the numbers of > the relevant postings. > > After some time one should receive a message from the listserv with > all the requested postings in full. > > It is really a simple process, I hope I did not present it in a too > complicated way. > > There are further search options. They can be found out if the > command > > info refcard > > is sent to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU . > > Petra > *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:47:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: _Native Tongue_ (and other Elgin stuff) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia Gonsalves wrote: > I've enjoyed everything Suzette's written... [...] > Maybe someone can remind me of the title, but there was a story > where people took tests to find their future profession and a girl > tested out for Poet which was Just Not Done. That's "For the Sake of Grace", a wonderful story that sparked Joanna Russ' novel *The Two of Them*. The girl's aunt also took the tests to become a poet -- and failed. Failure for a woman in this world means solitary confinement for life -- to teach the other women not to reach for things they aren't supposed to have. There's a wonderful image at the end of *The Two of Them* of the biblical valley of bones being stirred by the voice of Zubeydah's mad aunt. Great stuff. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:59:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG MOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Like many on this list I read MOA a long time ago and was bowled over by it. It answered some need of the time and was inspirational. I had always been fascinated by the Arthur legend, and this opened up an entirely different mindset. Reading it again, now, I approached it in a totally different manner and was not quite as impressed. Of course, there was a lot of blood under the bridge between readings. And I MEANT to be analytical, so I brought a different understanding to it and was not the same open mind from the first encounter. Despite that, it remains an important book in the sort of material we discuss here. Doubtless MZB would write it differently now. (Or maybe not. No matter.) It serves a purpose if it appeals to young women who need a nudge or an inspiration or the vision of a different path. Best Phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:29:27 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Freddie Baer wrote: > > If I remember correctly, that was Starship Troopers -- despite the anglo-ization > of the character in the recent movie. Yes. Johnny Rico, Carmen Ibanez, et. al. were played by actors as resolutely non-Hispanic as you could get short of an Aryan Nation propaganda movie, and his parents were shown as typical norteamericano suburbanites. Of course, Argentina's upper classes may well look like that - consider how blonde Eva Peron turned as she climber the ladder. Still, it annoyed me considerably. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Elgin's characters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980721220015.007021e8@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > > This comment reminded me of a discussion I had with someone > > at a conference about Joanna Russ' "anger" and how this person > > could not take it. I realized then that there's a generational issue. I > > was born in the fifties and raised in a small town in Idaho where the > > sixties never came; I am now in my forties. I wasn't old enough to be > > an adult during the sixties and seventies feminist movement, but I grew > > up in that culture--and had to fight my way out on my own (not finding > > feminist work until LATE in graduate school). So I resonate to Russ' > > and Elgin's anger. They were adults during the fifties, and Russ still > > has a LOT to say about that decade. > Yes. How many people who enjoy Elgin have birthdates before the mid-40s? Let's see a show of hands. She speaks to an older paradigm than the current one -w hich has been in place long enough for a good many adults to Not Get It. > so as to be easily refuted or defeated." As Elgin said in a message to this > very mailing list on September 27th of last year, she was raised in the > Ozarks where it is taught that "(1) when men do most things well it's an > accident, that (2) it's a woman's responsibility to clean up the messes men > make and protect men from the consequences of those messes as far as > possible, and that (3) it's a woman's responsibility to see to it that men > never know about (1) and (2)." "It's reverse sexism of the most > maternalistic kind," she said and admitted struggling against it in > herself; I found her struggle unsuccessful in the Native Tongue books. > Why not respect her culture for what it is and note that her books are an accurate reflection of what she's seen in front of her eyes for 60 years? > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:48:49 -0700 Reply-To: cynthia1960@home.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Freddie Baer wrote: > > > > > If I remember correctly, that was Starship Troopers -- despite the anglo-ization > > of the character in the recent movie. > > Yes. Johnny Rico, Carmen Ibanez, et. al. were played by actors as > resolutely non-Hispanic as you could get short of an Aryan Nation > propaganda movie, and his parents were shown as typical norteamericano > suburbanites. Of course, Argentina's upper classes may well look like that > - consider how blonde Eva Peron turned as she climber the ladder. Still, > it annoyed me considerably. Yeah, but Rico was Filipino, not Argentine in the book. The only connection Buenos Aires had with Rico was that his mom was killed there while on a visit with horrible timing coinciding with the Bug attack. Still, the funny thing is that I enjoyed the movie (matinee action....or rent it or watch it with friends who have the tape or DVD). I knew straight up that it only had a faint cosmetic resemblance to the book, so I wasn't expecting fidelity. later, Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch....They wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." (from Matt Ruff's _Sewer, Gas & Electric_) Sharks Bite!!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:36:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Bradley's Cassandra In-Reply-To: <19980722014735360.AAA247@jennifer.actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I guess what I'd have to do is go back to re-read Firebrand and see what I >think of it now, after MOA. > Be warned! I read Firebrand after MOA and was disappointed. MOA was such a powerful read for me that nothing could hold up to it, and my expectations of Firebrand were too high... I did get the feeling that if I had read it first it would have knocked my sock off. I feeling, BTW, i did not get from Forest House or Lady of Avalon. Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:37:03 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Re: selecting books for discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >BTW, even though I enjoy discussing the "pre-nominated" books, the whole >concept of BDG still seems funny to me. I think the idea of "book >discussion groups" is something purely American, or at least Western. I >remember that I found it hilarious the first time I've heard of it. >It sounded like "TV discussion group" or "newspaper discussion group" >-- something rather artificial, you know. In my culture, people just >read books and talked about them whenever they had time, with anyone. >The same way as they would discuss Princess Diana's marriage or the latest >economic reform, during the lunch break or over coffee at a friend's >house. Eventually, I decided that people who are interested in books are >so rare here that they have to make up all those structures just to find >someone else like them. Was I right, or was it just the desire to organize >everything that stood behind the idea of BDG's? I think the difference between the other topics you mentioned and discussing a parrticular book is the topicality of the me. While we may all find ourselves discussing a movie at the same time because it has opened across the country during a relatively small time period (with acknowledgements that this doesn't apply internationally), it is less likely that everyone will spontaneously read and discuss a book at the same time. EG. While I have recently read the new Sheri Tepper, the new Bujold and Nalo Hopkinson's first book, I don't know how many list members can say the same. Some may be waiting for copies in their library, or for mass market publication in a year for the first two. But please regard this as a broad hint for anyone else who has read then to pipe up with comments! :) Also, as it takes longer for most of us to read a book than it does to view a movie or read a news article, I think we benefit from having a plan to read a particular book somewhat in the future. Not to mention the shipping time sometimes involved in members getting a particular book... Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:26:25 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Bradley's Cassandra Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thinking back on when I read which, Firebrand did come first into my life before MOA...to be honest, had a terrible affliction for Ayn Rand at the time and read We The Living...and had a fit when I read the ending, had never felt so cheated as a reader before when the end just abruptly stopped faster than someone slamming the brakes on a car...but then I was in my early teens when I read those too. I just had an obscure thought...is Shirley Jackson's The Lottery considered to be science fiction in any way? I read that in the 4th grade out of a 6th grade reader and it seemed like twilight zone to me at the time hehe... At 10:36 AM 7/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >>I guess what I'd have to do is go back to re-read Firebrand and see what I >>think of it now, after MOA. >> >Be warned! I read Firebrand after MOA and was disappointed. MOA was such >a powerful read for me that nothing could hold up to it, and my >expectations of Firebrand were too high... I did get the feeling that if I >had read it first it would have knocked my sock off. I feeling, BTW, i did >not get from Forest House or Lady of Avalon. > > >Rudy Leon >Ph.D. candidate >Department of Religion >Syracuse University >releon@syr.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:01:18 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Sharon Shinn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just checked in with Sharon on her forthcoming book status, to which she replied: > >As for my own new books, I assume you know that "Alleluia Files" is out. >The next book will be out next spring-I think they're calling it "Wrapt >in Crystal," though my original title was a little different. No >angels! A little more hard-edged. It will be interesting to see what >kind of reception it gets. Cheers! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:56:20 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If I remember correctly, that was Starship Troopers -- despite the anglo-ization > > of the character in the recent movie. > > Yes. Johnny Rico, Carmen Ibanez, et. al. were played by actors as > resolutely non-Hispanic as you could get short of an Aryan Nation > propaganda movie, and his parents were shown as typical norteamericano > suburbanites. Of course, Argentina's upper classes may well look like that > - consider how blonde Eva Peron turned as she climber the ladder. Still, > it annoyed me considerably. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews I think general opinion is that Voorhausen was playing it up to the hilt to make it obvious that the book was fascist, the society fascist, that the whole idea of fighting for supremacy of the universe was extremely dodgy. Remember he grew up in Holland under the Nazi occupation so he is hardly unaware of aryan supremacism, or uncritical of it. FWIW I think he exaggerated Heinlein's extremism to make it even easier for us to see what was wrong with it. I find a lot of right-wing authors pop in a few strong women or ethnic minority characters, who act in all ways indistinguishable from the white boss men. This is supposed to prove that they aren't sexist or racist - hah! Alison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:20:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Elgin's characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, I wrote: > As Elgin said in a message to this > very mailing list on September 27th of last year, she was raised in > the Ozarks where it is taught that "(1) when men do most things well > it's an accident, that (2) it's a woman's responsibility to clean up > the messes men make and protect men from the consequences of those > messes as far as possible, and that (3) it's a woman's responsibility > to see to it that men never know about (1) and (2)." "It's reverse > sexism of the most maternalistic kind," she said and admitted > struggling against it in herself; I found her struggle unsuccessful > in the Native Tongue books. In reply, Pat Mathews wrote: > Why not respect her culture for what it is and note that her books > are an accurate reflection of what she's seen in front of her eyes > for 60 years? Because I don't believe that they are an accurate reflection. She admitted to being biased. I found that her bias largely ruined the effect of the story she was telling. And once again let me be clear that I DO NOT think that my reaction to the Native Tongue books has anything to with my being of a younger generation than fans of the book (your use of quoting made this unclear). I'm sure there are plenty of women younger than I am who love them. I simply don't believe that "reverse sexism" is a good thing and found the books unpleasant to read on that account. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:29:02 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) In-Reply-To: <199807212340.QAA07675@otaking.otaking.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Warning: possible spoilers of "family tree" below.. Yeah; there were subtle clues there, but nothing that really told me "something is really weird here" until the main human character found them (after they'd travelled back in time) and described them from her own perspective. The one thing that was still niggling at me was the Uhmanni(sp?), because given the premise that the "people" were human, they didn't sound like anything known in the world today, and yet they weren't described at all, and that bugs me. Of course, it all made sense once it was all revealed. So, FWIW, you're not alone in not noticing. :) -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephanie Jackson [mailto:percy@OTAKING.OTAKING.ORG] > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 4:40 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) > > One thing I noticed with Family Tree is that the > 'animal-types' were not portrayed as such until /well/ into > the book. I didn't even notice until they came > forward/back/whereever to the present day. Quite an > achievement (or else I was truly tired that day.) > > -Stephanie > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:42:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Re: selecting books for discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > . . . I decided that people who are interested in books are so rare here > that they have >to make up all those structures just to find someone else like > them. I think you could be right that the idea of discussing books as a group is somehow "western" or "North American." Perhaps it has something to do with beliefs connected to democracy. It's an interesting idea. However, I think there is evidence (and I can't remember where I read this) that N. Americans really do read a lot, although a lot of what most folks read isn't necessarily what this group might tend to read. I *rarely* read those books on the best-seller's list; they are usually not as well written as I would like. But as a nation we are, on average, very literate and bookish. I have lived in Africa, and in Kenya folks seemed to always be reading. Literacy (it is an English speaking country) is relatively high for both genders. My grad students at the University of Nairobi drove me crazy with the newspaper -- reading behavior we would consider rude here, almost obcessive reading. In the rural area out near the Uganda border, young people walked around with torn up, ultra-used copies of books and magazines -- all sorts of stuff, whatever they could get their hands on, including stuff we might think of as trash. The wonderful African writing in the Heinemann series, for example, is read in Kenyan schools, but my young research assistants tended to think of those orange-spined books as "texts," much like we in the north might think of our experiences with reading Faulkner or Hugo in high school -- authors we might have experienced in a dull context, ruined for us by the wrong teacher or by the pressure of exam preparation. > While I have recently read the new Sheri Tepper, the new Bujold and Nalo > Hopkinson's first book, I don't know how many list members can say the > same. Some may be waiting for copies in their library, or for mass > market publication in a year for the first two. I am totally into Tepper right now, and have bought the Nalo Hopkinson book. It looks wonderful. Give me a week and I'll be ready to talk about it!! (Anyone else?) Candice Bradley Appleton, WI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:03:33 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: selecting books for discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/22/98 4:50:05 PM, Candice wrote: <> My hand's up for Tepper. In a week or so. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: selecting books for discussion -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In a message dated 7/22/98 4:50:05 PM, Candice wrote: <> I've got to get Nalo's book (I've been on a James Ellroy binge). But what is the deal with the jacket for the new Tepper book? That is the most hideous jacket I've seen in years! Debra ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:21:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Hopkinson & Tepper [Was: Re: [*FSFFU*] selecting books for discussion] In-Reply-To: <50376b8f.35b61b67@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 7/22/98 4:50:05 PM, Candice wrote: > > < It looks wonderful. Give me a week and I'll be ready to talk about it!! > (Anyone else?)>> Read Nalo Hopkinson's _Brown Girl in the Ring_, a couple of weeks ago, and have read about a third of the new Tepper. Guess there are more of us reading the same things at the same times than one might think! Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:35:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Family Tree (Spoilers) [Was Re: [*FSFFU*] race, ethnicity and sexual , preference (Tepper)] Comments: To: Sandy Candioglos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > Warning: possible spoilers of "family tree" below.. Warning: *definite* spoiler of family tree below... > Yeah; there were subtle clues there, but nothing that really told me > "something is really weird here" until the main human character found them > (after they'd travelled back in time) and described them from her own > perspective. > > So, FWIW, you're not alone in not noticing. :) Interesting, although I didn't go back and re-read the first bits in light of the revelation, I pretty much assumed that Tepper intended readers not to figure it out. As I remember, when the character's species were revealed it left me with rather a bad taste in my mouth... Yes, I'd thought something a bit strange had been going on, but IMHO, the truth was not hinted at sufficiently for a reader to guess. Anne (not fond of that kind of suprise) Anne Vespry ******* After Stonewall ***** do not forget, avespry(at) *** only dead fish swim WITH the stream ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:58:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Hopkinson & Tepper [Was: Re: [*FSFFU*] selecting booksfordiscussion] -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have them both on my TBR pile. Marsha >>> Anne Vespry 07/22 12:21 pm >>> On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 7/22/98 4:50:05 PM, Candice wrote: > > < It looks wonderful. Give me a week and I'll be ready to talk about it!! > (Anyone else?)>> Read Nalo Hopkinson's _Brown Girl in the Ring_, a couple of weeks ago, and have read about a third of the new Tepper. Guess there are more of us reading the same things at the same times than one might think! Anne Anne Vespry ******* never forget After Stonewall ***** only dead fish swim WITH the stream avespry(at) *** ollis.uottawa.ca * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:47:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Sharon Shinn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yay!!!!! Btw what got me into her works was that little trip I made to the website where we were to gather the information to vote on what books we wanted to discuss here hehe...from there I bought both paperbacks, the one on the nomination list I had to special order too and Jovah's Angel was on the shelf so, it was a pleasant surprise to say the very least grin... Jo Ann At 09:01 AM 7/22/98 +0100, you wrote: >Just checked in with Sharon on her forthcoming book status, to which she >replied: > >> >>As for my own new books, I assume you know that "Alleluia Files" is out. >>The next book will be out next spring-I think they're calling it "Wrapt >>in Crystal," though my original title was a little different. No >>angels! A little more hard-edged. It will be interesting to see what >>kind of reception it gets. > >Cheers! > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:30:53 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: _Native Tongue_ (and other Elgin stuff) >Maybe someone can remind me of the >title, but there was a story where people took tests to find their >future profession and a girl tested out for Poet which was Just Not >Done. 'For the Sake of Grace' (the first SHE story I ever read), incorporated into the Coyote Jones novel _At the Seventh Level_ (which was one of the first imported US sf paperbacks I bought at the long since defunct bookshop 'Dark they were and golden-eyed' in Soho) Joanna Russ used the setting as the background for _The Two of Them_. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:14:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: race, ethnicity and sexual preference (Tepper) Comments: To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:29:02 -0700 Sandy Candioglos writes: >Warning: possible spoilers of "family tree" below.. It's great fun re-reading, to see the apparaently metaphorical tricks she played; Blanche "flying around the corner" and "perching on a high stool", Soaz's "armored hand" and many others. I had the impression (maybe wrong) that this was the first of a trilogy; I am really curious about the Uhmanni and how they managed to keep "under cover" for three thousand years: it was the least satisfactory aspect of the book as far as I was concerned. Even the most rigid society has to cope with rebellion, especially from the young, especially if they know how to talk! > >Yeah; there were subtle clues there, but nothing that really told me >"something is really weird here" until the main human character found >them >(after they'd travelled back in time) and described them from her own >perspective. The one thing that was still niggling at me was the >Uhmanni(sp?), because given the premise that the "people" were human, >they >didn't sound like anything known in the world today, and yet they >weren't >described at all, and that bugs me. Of course, it all made sense once >it >was all revealed. > >So, FWIW, you're not alone in not noticing. :) > > -Sandy > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephanie Jackson [mailto:percy@OTAKING.OTAKING.ORG] >> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 4:40 PM >> To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] race, ethnicity and sexual preference >(Tepper) >> >> One thing I noticed with Family Tree is that the >> 'animal-types' were not portrayed as such until /well/ into >> the book. I didn't even notice until they came >> forward/back/whereever to the present day. Quite an >> achievement (or else I was truly tired that day.) >> >> -Stephanie >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:52:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: CRONES Comments: To: Todd Mason , Sharon Anderson , Robin Reid , Melnjo , Maryelizabeth Hart , Marge Tillman , lilith , lquilter@igc.apc.org, Kathleen M Friello , Katharine Woods , Jessie Stickgold-Sarah , Ines Lassnig , Catherine Asaro , Anthea , AnnyMiddon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all CRONES and potential CRONES, The site is ready!!!!! http://home.earthlink.net/~donnaneely/ When you arrive, this is what you will find..... - title page has a 'frames/no frames' choice. 'frames' is still under construction so it goes no where yet. - at 'no frames page'...very little from me.....what were reading, links to the forum, brief 'about' comments, feedback links, what will be archive.....I want the space to evolve as we all want it to evolve so I tried to keep 'me' out of it. Until we see what better kind of machine we want to build this was the cheapest and quickest way to start. BTW, the add banner on the forum page is not of our choosing, but it keeps the forum space free. Before I leave you with my notes from last update, let me say......Fellow FSFFUer 'Lilith' is a goddess. I sent her what was then an anonymous post based on seeing her posting to FSFFU and asked if she could build me a web page. She DID! Willingly, graciously and without any promise of recompense. She deserves more recognition than I could possible encompass with this post. The best 40th birthday present I could have imagined. :D Perhaps I will fund her start up costs to go into business. I deep and hushed bow to her from me. If anyone else wants to send her appreciation, look carefully at web page bottom for a link to her. as I said previously. >we will be setting up an online forum to which folks can post their comments/view comments. The opening page will indicate what chapter we are targeted to read and when, and then you can move to the forum to post. We will also be setting up an archive site to save postings over time. Then folks can catch up, refer back etc, etc. Future developments on the page will be at the whims of the group. For instance, shall we discuss her other books of essays after this book? Shall we invite her for some on line discussion. The universe is the limit, right? >Consider this your first (now second) invitation to make comment on how you would like to tackle the consumption of Russ's essays: what order, timeframes, etc. So as not to tie up FSFFU, please post directly to myself - donnaneely@earthlink.net . The reading/discussion portion is completely a collective effort. Each person has equal voice. Though I am happy to continue gophering and administering on our behalf. At least until someone realizes how much fun it is and demands the position. If anyone cannot find a copy of the book let me know. I have been shipping copies world wide with great pleasure!> Donna Simone donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:50:16 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Teresa Alonso Subject: Re: selecting books for discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Maryelizabeth - very wisely - said: < snip > Also, as it takes longer for most of us to read a book than it does to view >a movie or read a news article, I think we benefit from having a plan to >read a particular book somewhat in the future. Not to mention the shipping >time sometimes involved in members getting a particular book... Hear, hear! I am one of those who cannot normally get the books at home and need to have most of them sent from the States . As Maryelizabeth well knows, minimum shipping time from the US to Spain is 2 / 3 months, unless of course, I want to go bankrupt because of added air mail costs . Therefore , the longer I know in advance the reading schedule , the happier I am . I know I am normally a lurker but I like it to be with effort and by nature and dedication and not because of not being able to follow the discussion! So please, may we stick to at least a 3 months schedule? Teresa Alonso ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:33:08 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: CRONES Comments: To: donnaneely@earthlink.net, shander@cdsnet.net, Robin_Reid@tamu-commerce.edu, Melnjo@aol.com, mystgalaxy@ax.com, Mmtill@aol.com, ligeia@concentric.net, lquilter@igc.apc.org, Kmfriello@aol.com, kjw@whitecrow.demon.co.uk, jss@pa.dec.com, ilassnig@edu.uni-klu.ac.at, asaro@sff.net, gaudit@global.co.za, AnnyMiddon@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit it's quite handsome, easy to access even with my RAM-deficient setup, and I'm proud to have put a tentative bit up. Good work! Can't wait to see what y'all have to say... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:54:40 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Yvonne Rowse Subject: Re: _Native Tongue_ (and other Elgin stuff) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lesley Hall wrote; >'For the Sake of Grace' (the first SHE story I ever read), incorporated into >the Coyote Jones novel _At the Seventh Level_ (which was one of the first >imported US sf paperbacks I bought at the long since defunct bookshop 'Dark >they were and golden-eyed' in Soho) Thank you Lesley. You've cleared up a mystery for me. Many years ago most of the sf books in our methodist church booksale had little yellow price labels with the phrase 'Dark they were and golden-eyed'. The title is a Ray Bradbury short story from 'The Silver Locusts'/ 'Martian Chronicles' I think. A lot of the books were unusually radical for a church booksale. I bought most of them, of course. Now the only mystery is who was buying such books and giving them to the book sale twenty years ago in our parochial village on the edge of Leeds (UK). Was it a plot to subvert teenage girls? I'd like to think so. The labelled books stopped arriving after a few years leaving only WHSmith type SF and I stopped going to the book sale. Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:26:08 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Ms.Devilspin (jenn)" Subject: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anoyone know of any books on feminist cyberpunk or similar sorts of things. I would really appreciate any info. Thanks ~*If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.*~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:01:00 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/23/98 11:26:52 AM, you wrote: <> Try Colin Greenland's "Plenty" series Take Back Plenty and Seasons of Plenty. His Tabitha Jute is a punk if ever there was one. I found his Universe pretty uncomfortable. Felt chaotic and in need of a good cleaning. best Phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:17:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980723212608.00696570@hemlock.newcastle.edu.au> from "Ms.Devilspin" at Jul 23, 98 09:26:08 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anoyone know of any books on feminist cyberpunk or similar sorts of > things. I would really appreciate any info. Thanks > Well the first that springs to mind is Melissa Scott's _Trouble and Her Friends_. Excellent. Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:50:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ms.Devilspin (jenn) wrote: > > Does anoyone know of any books on feminist cyberpunk or similar sorts of > things. I would really appreciate any info. Thanks > > ~*If you're not living on the edge, > you're taking up too much space.*~ Pat Cadigan 's _Fools_, _Mindplayers_, and especially the wonderful _Synners_, they're pretty old now so may be out-of-print. Also many of her short stories are cyberpunk. Linda Nagata's _The Bohr Maker_ is pretty good, though I don't think it's overtly feminist. Melissa Scott's _Trouble_ has already been mentioned, but her _Burning Bright_ is good too. Have fun SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:02:49 +0200 Reply-To: thomasg@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: schant 's message of Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:50:22 -0700 > Pat Cadigan 's _Fools_, _Mindplayers_, and especially the wonderful > _Synners_, they're pretty old now so may be out-of-print. They are indeed out of print, but you can buy them directly from her, see her web page at http://www.wmin.ac.uk/~fowlerc/patcadigan.html That includes info about the books, about her, forthcoming projects, interviews etc. > Also many of her short stories are cyberpunk. I really enjoy her short stories. The anthology _Patterns_ for example, and that is cyberpunk too. Thomas Gramstad thomasg@ifi.uio.no ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:27:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cyberpunk short story collections with some women authors: Jack Dann and Garner Dozois: Hackers (incl. Cadigan and Dorsey); Sterling: Mirrorshades (incl. one Cadigan story); Jones: Cybersex (no, it isn't what it sounds like! incl. Dorsey, Koja, Storm Constantine, McHugh, Tiptree, Willis, Kress). Two more cyberpunk novels: Sue Thomas: Correspondence; Lisa Mason: Arachne. Haven't read it yet, but does McHugh's China Mountain Zhang qualify? There is great nonfiction about women and cyberpunk -- my favorite is Wired Women edited by Lynn Cherny and Elizabeth Reba Weise. I can't recommend this highly enough. It includes a couple of articles by lesbian women (including Cherny), and my favorite, a critique of Wired magazine by an "aging feminist." This was hands-down my students' favorite book last year in the cyberculture course. It's the most readable nonfiction cyberculture book I've found. Donna Haraway's "Cyborg Manifesto" is another feminist cyber must-read. It is readable online at: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/Haraway/CyborgManifesto.html Online article: "Cyberpunks to Synners: Toward a Feminist Posthumanism? by Shawn Wilbur http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~swilbur/cadigan.html Lots of websites with cyberpunk listings. http://euro.net/mark-space/Cyberpunk.html Anachron City's listing of Cyberpunk Authors http://www.nyx.net/~astoker/cpbooks.html#books1 List of Cyberpunk books Here's my links page for my cyberculture course. Perhaps there's more for the cybercurious: http://www.lawrence.edu/~bradleyc/cyberlinks.html Candice Bradley Appleton WI ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: <35B7483B.65C85067@athenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Daniel Byrne wrote: > Two more cyberpunk novels: Sue Thomas: Correspondence; Lisa Mason: Arachne. And there's a sequel to Mason's Arachne as well. > > Haven't read it yet, but does McHugh's China Mountain Zhang qualify? Great book. Best gay male character in sf, but not really cyberpunk. Also try Wilhemina Baird's books PsyKosis and several others. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:16:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: reverse oppression? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some of the recent posts have made me think of ongoing discussions in my multiethnic American literature course (which I teach, it's a sophomore level), and I thought I'd toss in some ideas. I don't believe in reverse (fill in the blank with racism or sexism). How can you have reverse oppression? I know the term is used a lot, and I don't want to attack any individual for using it. I would like to present some different ways of thinking about definition of these terms that come from my experiences in teaching my class, and as a feminist as well. While any INDIVIDUAL can have bigoted and negative feelings about any other group/individual representing a group, and it's very easy in the segregated country we live in, I see both racism and sexism as systematic and institutional structures, ideologies which pre-exist people who are born into them, and which reflect power. Some members of some groups have access to more privilege and power than other members of other groups--if judges are primarily made of up members who are white/male/middle or upper class, their "feelings" about Others will have more material repercussions on those people than the "feelings" Others might have about white/middle or upper class/males. So when (European American) students complained that my multiethnic American literature class isn't "really" multiethnic because I don't have any "white" writers (never mind that white doesn't signify culture), I began having an exercise at the start of every semester. I have students write down every writer they can remember being assigned in their high school and/or college literature classes. Then we compare lists. The overwhelming majority of writers assigned fall into the 'canonical' group--mostly Shakespeare. Now, I love and teach Shakespeare myself, BUT.....in my m.A.lit. class, I teach African American, Hispanic American, Native American or Asian American writers (yes, I know there are problems with all those terms, but those are the titles of the anthologies I use) in some combination. The listing exercise at the start puts my class into a social context in which the writers I focus on in the class are EXCLUDED in many "literature" classes (for a variety of reasons--I don't blame individual teachers particularly.) I shouldn't have to teach a course labelled "multiethnic"--every literature course (and every American literature course) should be--but at this point in history, in this location, I need to. I don't want to attack my European American students for their questions, but I want them to think about the social context in which those questions are raised. So--Elgin and bias? Reverse sexism? Or Culture? (Should we debate whether culture is bias? If you start talking about a writer's world view as bias--I just don't know.) And if she's angry--well, it's a bit much to expect a member of a "minority" group (women are the majority in society, but in terms of power, you can still say oppressed) NOT to be angry at their situation. As a feminist academic at a small college in rural Texas, I am often angry, especially when I'm perhaps the only woman on a specific committee, or one of two or three women on another committee being accused of having a "secret feminist agenda." I agree that Elgin's characterization of men in _Native Tongue_ can be read as fairly limited in some ways. I still think it works, and isn't all that dated (I see things on these committeesss.....) But--check out bookstores. How often do you find Elgin's books? Lots of them are not in print. She's written about how hard it was to get the third book in the N.T. trilogy in print. Elgin's (and Russ') books are not found in every bookstore (I check these things out). Piers Anthony, on the other hand, takes up an immense amount of space in every bookstore I've been in. I find his portrayal of women characters to be intensely stereotped and misogynistic. If you count up how many male authors are sold in the genre SF/F section, vs. female (let alone feminist), the system is completely biassed toward the DEFAULT/MASCULINE view. Although there are of course exceptions, male authors who portray female characters wonderfully, and some who are even feminist. I don't see female authors as having the presence/power or even making the money male authors do--and that reflects society in general (women/men as a group--yes, there are many poor and so relatively powerless "white" men in this culture, but compare their situation to the women in that class, and there is still a difference). It's too easy to take negative views of some males as expressed through charcaters and call it "sexism." (I mean, what is this reverse bit here? It's either sexism, or it isn't.) Bad feelings, individual bias, OK--but sexism? On the individual level, not liking any author or book for characterization is fine--but tossing around words like "sexism" in that context disturbs me. As does my European American students complaining about "racism" of African American writers--or writers of any other "minority" group--when these students have grown up in a culture in which they have not even heard of these writers until they take a college class (a required one by the way--few of these students would take it on their own; their majors require it). I refuse to allow the only definition of serious terms like "racism" or "sexism" to be on the level of individual feelings/perceptions. That may be part of it, but if we stop there, what's the point? There's no way you can punish people for their feelings; but there are ways you can look at systemic and institutionally constructed ideologies and start trying to change them. I know the "reverse X" term has been around a lot--just as "politically correct" has. I see them both as part of a backlast rhetoric. In terms of the media and institutions which rely on these terms, I tend to darkly assume that the rhetorical purpose is to put "oppressed groups" on the same level as "oppressors," to wipe out any difference. After all, if those people (whatever group you mean) are just as "mean" and "evil" and "prejudiced" as the dominant group, well, hey, then, they more or less deserve what they get. The idea that suffering makes any group "purer" or better is just another face to prejudice, as far as I'm concerned. Robin Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:35:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Goddess religion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Given the recent fascinating posts on MZB's MOA, I thought I'd forward a call for papers for those who might be interested in expanding their ideas into a presentation! Papers are sought examining contemporary women's literature which demonstrates a struggle with patriarchal religion and a search for divinity within the female, perhaps offering, either overtly or covertly, an alternative "goddess religion." This topic is being proposed for a Special Session for the 1999 SCMLA Conference to be held in Memphis, Oct. 28-30. Send abstracts by Nov. 1st to: Dr. Linda Byrd Sam Houston State University Box 2146 English Dept. Huntsville, TX 77341 Questions may be sent via e-mail to: eng_ljb@shsu.ed ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:15:11 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is great nonfiction about women and cyberpunk -- my favorite is Wired > Women edited by Lynn Cherny and Elizabeth Reba Weise. I can't recommend this > highly enough. > Candice Bradley Aye to that. And what about 'zeros and ones' by sadie plant which is about women and computers, from ada lovelace to the present. Wierd and wonderful. Alison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:13:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Notice - CRONES Comments: To: Todd Mason , Sharon Anderson , Robin Reid , Melnjo , Maryelizabeth Hart , Marge Tillman , lilith , lquilter@igc.apc.org, Kathleen M Friello , Katharine Woods , Jessie Stickgold-Sarah , Ines Lassnig , Catherine Asaro , Anthea , AnnyMiddon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay I post the site than I run away! I am off on travel until 29 July. If something should foul up at the page please post Lilith, our wondrous site maintenance support person, at: ligeia@concentric.net keep the mail coming on suggestions, etc. or better yet post them to the forum for all to see. I will respond forthwith when I return. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:16:37 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980723212608.00696570@hemlock.newcastle.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not clear on the definition of "cyberpunk" - would Nicola Griffith's _Slow River_ qualify? -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Ms.Devilspin (jenn) [mailto:phoenix@HEMLOCK.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU] > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 4:26 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] feminist cyberpunk books? > > > Does anoyone know of any books on feminist cyberpunk or > similar sorts of > things. I would really appreciate any info. Thanks > > ~*If you're not living on the edge, > you're taking up too much space.*~ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:23:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: reverse oppression? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Reid wrote: > I don't believe in reverse (fill in the blank with racism or sexism). > How can you have reverse oppression? > So--Elgin and bias? Reverse sexism? Or Culture? (Should we debate > whether culture is bias? If you start talking about a writer's world > view as bias--I just don't know.) You are preaching to the converted with all of the above. It was not I who used the term "reverse sexism", it was Elgin herself. I agree that it isn't really the right term for what bothered me about the Native Tongue books. It was Elgin's personal bias about the relations between the sexes which I found objectionable. Her list of the three maxims (men are incompetent, women must clean up their messes and make sure the men never know about it) approximated quite well my sense of the relations between men and women in the books. There is a certain truth to these maxims, at least some of the time -- what bothered me was that Elgin seemed to believe that these were true ALL THE TIME, EVERYWHERE. I have no interest in cutting men slack for their sexist behavior, believe me. I simply don't think that assuming they are all the same helps the feminist cause. > And if she's angry--well, it's a bit much to > expect a member of a "minority" group (women are the majority in > society, but in terms of power, you can still say oppressed) NOT to be > angry at their situation. As a feminist academic at a small college > in rural Texas, I am often angry, especially when I'm perhaps the only > woman on a specific committee, or one of two or three women on another > committee being accused of having a "secret feminist agenda." Agreed. As I said, Elgin's anger did not bother me at all. It was her characterizations, as mentioned above. As far as anger goes, one of the angriest feminist books I've ever read was Suzy McKee Charnas' *Walk to the End of the World* -- a book that I found much more effective than the Native Tongue books partly because it showed the genuine variability among the men of the Holdfast and how different men have different ways of enforcing oppression. It also showed a great deal of variation among the women, which the Native Tongue books did not. > I agree that Elgin's characterization of men in _Native Tongue_ can be > read as fairly limited in some ways. I still think it works, and > isn't all that dated (I see things on these committeesss.....) Dated? No. But it still did not work for me for the reasons stated above. In a similar way, I found the villains in Joan Slonczewski's *A Door Into Ocean* and Ursula Le Guin's *The Word for World is Forest* tiresome and unbelievable. I guess you could say that I like a little more subtlety in my bad guys. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:49:20 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Primary Inversion etc (Was Freedom Series & PI) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Susan! Susan Walto > Catherine Asaro wrote: the female narrator, who is almost fifty, is twice > the age of the male romantic interest. But the reactions have been positive. > In fact, as far as I have seen, the relationship has generated absolutely no > controversy. That isn't as progressive as it sounds, though, because the > woman is beautiful (she's the one on the cover of THE RADIANT SEAS), > > I'd say that it isn't so much that she's beautiful as that she seems half > her age to the other characters. If she looks as old as her romantic > interest, most readers could ignore that she actually isn't. Yes, I think that is true, or at least certainly part of it. Originally I thought it was the only reason, but now I'm not sure. THE LAST HAWK, my third book, has a May-December relationship where it is clear the woman is older than the man. In fact, the age difference looks even greater than it actually is because he appears younger for the same reason that the character Soz in PI looks younger. But so far the relationship in HAWK has earned no comments either, except in a positive sense, that is, readers and reviewers saying the relationship works. I thought over this for a while, trying to understand. My guess is that it is because the male narrator finds Deha (his wife-to-be) attractive, admires her, and realizes he is falling in love with her. I'm guessing that readers see the character as the narrator sees her. So if he looks at her stretch marks and says "You have a lovely body," the reader sees it that way too. My other guess is that it is accepted within the culture of the book for a powerful woman to have a handsome young husband, so if the reader accepts the culture of the book, they accept the love relationship. The first draft of the book was written when I was only in my twenties, though, so I took some time to think about it. Even when I was a kid, I thoroughly disliked the stereotypes in fiction where 1) powerful, older women are portrayed as having less honor, dignity, ethics, or [fill in the blank] than their male counterparts, and 2) aging=ugly=less human for women. So when I was writing the book, I thought a lot on the following question: "Should I portray Deha as her husband-to-be sees her, as a desirable woman, or should I stress her age, which after all, women should be proud of?" Later, some of my thinking also came out of an experience I had living in another country. About seven years ago, my husband and I were visiting scientists at the Max Planck Institut in Germany. We lived in a small town in Bavaria and I had almost no access to fiction in English. Although I learned to read German, it wasn't with ease. So by the time we came home, I was starved for =any= reading in English. I bought the first two books I saw that looked like they would keep my interest: THE BEAUTY MYTH, by Naomi Wolf DIANA, HER TRUE STORY, by Andrew Morton To say the second book illustrates the first is truly an understatement! Added to that was coming back to a different culture. I was glad to be home, but we had been away long enough for me to experience some culture shock. I felt innundated by the sexualized images of women in our media. Although there is a bit of that in Bavaria, it is nowhere near at the same level (except for the Friday late-night porn shows on television, but that's a whole other story! :-). Although I had always been aware of the implicit message that for women, older ages=ugly, with the corollary that ugly=less human, that experience accented it with a clang. At that point I decided I would do my best to find language in my own books that didn't portray older women in those ways. (I've tried to hold to that even for characters who aren't meant to be sympathetic.) By that, I mean both the big issues, such as woman being relegatedto roles as sex objects, but also the smaller things, for example, phrasing such as "she looked good despite her age." For example, a character can have "fading gray hair that has lost the gloss of its youth," she can have "shimmering silver hair that frames her face," or she can have "iron-gray hair." Each of those descriptions creates a different image. What I tried to do with HAWK was potray that "beauty" came from the health, diginity, power, and personality. However, this is different than the situation with Soz in PRIMARY INVERSION. Soz and the other members of her family look younger due to the medical advances of their time, which I extrapolated from advances made in human medical care and longevity in our own world. As soon as I started extrapolating, I realized I would have to deal with how prolonged lives and youth affected human interactions (in addition to issues such as over-population). It makes for some interesting situations, for both male and female characters. For one thing, both Soz and her brother Kelric (the fellow in HAWK) have to deal with the reverse problem, which is that people take them less seriously as a highly-skilled military officers because of their youthful appearance. It also leads to complications in their personal lives, eg, by the time Soz is pregnant with her fifth child, she is in her sixties. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:00:11 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Romance: belated reaction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carolyn Ives Gilman wrote: > After reading Catherine Asaro's description of what constitutes romance, my > reaction was, "Gee, I'd like to write some of that." (Imagine my surprise > when I learned I already had.) Catherine, it strikes me that you are working > toward a broader, almost 19th-century definition of romance, and jettisoning > the narrower recent definition (romance equals mass-produced formula fiction > like Harlequins). This seems like a noble resurrection of an abused term. > After all, Sir Walter Scott, Alexander Dumas, Robert Louis Stevenson, and > Victor Hugo all wrote romance according to the 19th-century definition. I > believe that it was early immersion in writers like these that made me seek > out SF later on, as the closest thing I could find to the same set of > aesthetics and values. Hi, Carolyn! Yes, I think you are right. This is one thing romance readers kept saying over and over to me when expressing their frustration about how romance is viewed by the rest of the reading public. I'm still getting my "sea legs" in learning about that genre, but my impresson so far is that the more formulaic romances fill a niche similar to what Star Wars, Star Trek, the X-Files, and so on fill in our genre. I used to think that as science fiction and fantasy writers, we had more leeway with what we write. However, after looking more into the romance genre, now I'm not so sure. We have more leeway with some things, such as science, but less with others, such as portrayals of romantic love. It is hard to say, though. The romance genre is developing so fast, it's hard to keep up with it. > "Gee, I'd like to write some of that." I hopeyou do (more). You would do a wonderful job with it! :-) Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:48:13 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: For Philadelphians and others who might be interested... Comments: To: horror@listserv.inidana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Philadelphia Fantastic and the CCC Gallery USA have joined together to throw a Worldcon Warmup Party on July 24th @ 7:30 in the evening. Philadelphia Fantastic presents a series of readings by local writers of speculative fiction--science fiction, fantasy, horror--on the fourth Friday of the month. With Worldcon almost upon us, we decided to take a break from the usual readings to practice up on our partying, and maybe get the fans to do some of the work. So, you are invited to the party--Rebecca Ore will be there, and Camille Bacon-Smith, Tom and Sara Purdom, Darrell Schweitzer and more. If you are a local author yourself, come and introduce yourself to Philadelphia fans. Everyone is encouraged to bring a one-page reading for the "worst opening for a story" contest. Make your story lurid or silly, let your characters converse in bad or bawdy rhyme, or anything else you can imagine to win the "Yugo" for worst story. A second "Yugo" will be awarded to the contestant who stumps the stars in the trivia contest, so bring your trivia questions (and answers) to: the CCC USA Gallery, at 10 North 3rd Street, Philadelphia, PA; @ 7:30 pm. And check out our website at for news of upcoming events. Camille Bacon-Smith for Philadelphia Fantastic ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:00:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? Comments: To: Sandy Candioglos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > I'm not clear on the definition of "cyberpunk" - would Nicola Griffith's > _Slow River_ qualify? > > -Sandy A superb novel, but not cyberpunk. Cyberpunk pretty much requires two things, first, some sort of super Internet which can be entered by people through either virtual reality or a direct brain-computer interface and second, a down and dirty street punk sensibility. Not every cyberpunk novel has both of these things in equal measure, but most make at least a nod in the direction of them. Not absolutely requisite, but extremely common as well are mirrorshade glasses, rock and roll, a dystopian future, heavy alienation, a tendency towards the hard boiled detective novel, decaying urban landscapes, mega-corporations as bad guys, renegade AI's, people with extensive and often very kinky body modifications, and general nastiness. See: William Gibson's Neuromancer, Melissa Scott's Trouble and Her Friends, the film Blade Runner, Pat Cadigan's Synners, or Neil Stephenson's Snow Crash. Despite the fact that it centers on sewage, Slow River is much too clean to be cyberpunk. Mike Levy, who's off to Diversicon tomorrow to hobnob with the likes of Eleanor Arnason and Carolyn Ives Gilman. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:12:55 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: CRONES page site access problems with AOL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone! First: thanks for all the compliments on the C.R.O.N.E.S. website! I hope it is satisfactory for everyone. Now on to the bad news: I just got a brief email from Donna, who notified me that she was having trouble accessing the site entry page at Earthlink.net with her father's America Online account. I tried going there with the AOL account I still have and also was unable to access the site, so there seems to be a problem with America Online. I had no trouble getting to the site with my regular Internet account. I am not sure what the problem is, since I could not get to the site using any browser while logged on to AOL. If anyone with an America Online account continues to have this problem in the future please let me know and I will try to contact either AOL or Earthlink to see if they have any idea what is the problem. thanks again, Lilith -- I dare you -- to be real; To touch -- to touch the flickering flame.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:55:57 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <199807231516.KAA19480@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 23 Jul 98, at 10:16, Robin Reid wrote: > But--check out bookstores. How often do you find Elgin's books? Lots of > them are not in print. She's written about how hard it was to get the > third book in the N.T. trilogy in print. Are you not choosing a bad example here? Firstly Elgin wrote the NT series for a tightly-focused niche market; her works were calculated to offend anyone not already a convert. Can one expect men (and women without anger towards men) to buy books which refer to them in patronizing, insulting terms? By the same token can one reasonably expect booksellers to stock works for which there is only a limited sale? Secondly, "Earthsong" was - I think by general argeement - the worst written of the trilogy. Had it not been billed as the last of a trilogy and therefore (presumably) had a captive market, I would have thought it unpublishable. It was the first of Elgin's books I read; I thought it so bad, I didn't bother to buy the other two for two years - and then only because they were VERY cheap. > Elgin's (and Russ') books are not found in every bookstore (I > check these things out). Piers Anthony, on the other hand, takes > up an immense amount of space .... I find his portrayal of women > characters ...stereotyped and misogynistic. You're comparing "apples and pears" here. Piers Anthony's books are good fun. They're well-written and make easy reading although I _personally_ find much of his later work irritatingly silly. I agree that his female characters seem stereotyped but so do the males. The only misogyny I noticed was restricted to essential parts of the plot. But much of Elgin and most of Russ make heavy reading. Elgin's endless patronising, tendentious diatribes in the first NT book or the host of pooly developed characters popping out of the woodwork in "Earthsong" made them difficult to read, hard to appreciate. Much as I respect Russ' work, I don't always enjoy her writing because her anger too often threatens to swamp the logic of her argument. If I didn't have an _absorbing_ interest in her subject, I'd probably regard her books as unreadable. > If you count up how many male authors are sold in the genre SF/F > section, vs. female (let alone feminist), the system is completely > biassed toward the DEFAULT/MASCULINE view. Of course it is but not for the reasons you imply. The "masculine" books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing. Many feminist authors, on the other hand, appear to write for a selected readership with strongly exclusive views (I find all Russ' non-fiction and most fiction work to be like this). They often "propagandize" more than they entertain (as the NT series amply demonstrates). Can we blame the "system" for bias if feminist SF/F authors deliberately marginalize themselves? AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 02:40:26 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Diversity in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading the comments about race here made me think on what has caused the most controversy in my own books. By far, it is my portrayal of a young Mayan woman. Although the book has enjoyed success, there have been some comments, all from white males, of the following types: the Mayan girl is too intelligent, too adaptable, too responsible, not responsible enough, too virginal, or not virginal enough. The character is a young woman who came with her family from Mexico to the United States as a child and so speaks three languages (English, Spanish, and Mayan). Since the death of her mother, she has been living in the barrio and working as a waitress to support herself while saving money to attend the local college. In other words, she is representative of many young people who have immigrated to this country throughout the history of the US. One reader felt that no way existed for a girl in such a situation to still be a virgin at seventeen or that she would be so responsible for her own life. He referred to those attributes as "middle class values." He also castigated me for making one of the villains white, saying that was "PC." Another reader was bothered in the reverse direction, by the inclusion of a romantic component to the story. The story takes place in the late 1980's, and has nothing whatsoever to do with any movement of the 1960's, but one reviewer referred to the character as a "flower child." He also called her a "wayward teenager." Another reader said that if I had made the narrator a white teenage male, the story would have worked better, because he could have believed such a character would want to go into space, whereas he couldn't believe it in the case of a Mayan girl from the barrio (with the caveat of course that the gorgeous starfighter love-interest from the future would then have to be female instead of male ). In several of these cases, the reader has felt that even though he was a different religion, race, and sex than the narrator, he still didn't believe she would behave as I described. In accordance with the time-honored principle, "You always think of the right response when it's too late to make it," I realized later I should have asked why they felt they knew better than I how such a character would behave. A few readers were bothered by her apptitude for and interest in physics. Another well meant reader felt the story should show the narrator achieving success in her environment, rather than her going into the future with the fighter pilot, because the latter scenario gives a space adventure ending rather than showing the character overcoming her situation in a manner people in the real world could relate to, using the tools of life at the disposal of such a person. It took me a while to figure out what bothered me about that. For one, it assumes she hasn't already achieved success by becoming a responsible adult. For another, it minimizes her accomplishments in dealing with the technological culture she is thrust into. Finally, it suggests that space adventure is a form of fiction only appropriate for characters who don't have poverty, immigration problems, or other difficulties to deal with. Which leaves who? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:03:57 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Ms.Devilspin (jenn)" Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: <35B7A20E.33A@schant.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Pat Cadigan 's _Fools_, _Mindplayers_, and especially the wonderful >_Synners_, they're pretty old now so may be out-of-print. Also many of >her short stories are cyberpunk. Linda Nagata's _The Bohr Maker_ is >pretty good, though I don't think it's overtly feminist. Melissa Scott's >_Trouble_ has already been mentioned, but her _Burning Bright_ is good >too. > >Have fun >SC Ok Ive been trying to get these Pat Cadigan ones. Anyone in Australia know if there around? ~*If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.*~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:33:04 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Ms.Devilspin (jenn)" Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: <35B7483B.65C85067@athenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks everyone for your help with the books! Ill try and get them. So far Ive only found 3 available at my library at uni *sigh* ~*If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.*~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:06:32 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems with AOL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-07-23 23:16:18 EDT, you write: << If anyone with an America Online account continues to have this problem in the future please let me know and I will try to contact either AOL or Earthlink to see if they have any idea what is the problem. >> I have also been unable to access the site: I'm on AOL, but use Netscape as a browser, never having downloaded the Microsoft browser AOL is now forcing its customers to use. Netscape gives me the error message that it is unable to find a DNS entry for earthlink ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:12:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ive been trying to get these Pat Cadigan ones. Anyone in Australia know > if there around? I had to buy Synners through a used book dealer on the 'net. It was not in the library and it is out of print. Even Amazon.com couldn't get it. I live in the U.S. Try searching the Advanced Book Exchange on the 'net. Used book dealers will send books overseas. It may take a while to locate what you want, but you can enter a book want querry and the ABC system will notify you every time a Cadigan book gets listed. Candice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:21:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becky Hinshaw Subject: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII" List members, Anthea wrote: "Can one expect men (and women without anger towards men) to buy books which refer to them in patronizing, insulting terms?" Books written from a minority and very angry POV once were best sellers... ex. _Native Son_, _Soul on Ice_. Are only males or members of ethnic groups allowed to be angry and yet still readable? Is the science fiction community less open to differing POVs" than readers of general literature? Have times changed so that only "comfortable" is acceptable? "By the same token can one reasonably expect booksellers to stock works for which there is only a limited sale?" Thinking like this is why local book sellers are losing business to amazon.com? "Piers Anthony's books are good fun. They're well-written and make easy reading although I _personally_ find much of his later work irritatingly silly. " I agree only with" irritatingly silly. " " The "masculine" books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing." Inclusive of who? Aliens, having only the contents of the usual bookstore's sci-fi section to read, would have to assume 98% of humans were "white" and 90% were males (who spent most of their time shooting weapons at others). I have been reading and buying Sci-Fi for 40 years and am female and a feminist. I read this genre to FIND differing POV. If the books were on the shelf, I (and others) would buy them. IMHO, Becky Hinshaw ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:45:13 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems with AOL In-Reply-To: <39b3c3c6.35b894e9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 24/07/98 15:06:32 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed "Kathleen M. Friello" , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > In a message dated 98-07-23 23:16:18 EDT, you write: > > << If anyone with an America Online account > continues to have this problem in the future please let me know and I > will try to contact either AOL or Earthlink to see if they have any idea > what is the problem. >> > > I have also been unable to access the site: I'm on AOL, but use Netscape as a > browser, never having downloaded the Microsoft browser AOL is now forcing its > customers to use. Netscape gives me the error message that it is unable to > find a DNS entry for earthlink I suspect this may be due to AOL's heavy-handed policies to protect its customers from the horrors of the big bad internet, but I could be wrong. The IP address for home.earthlink.net is 209.178.49.4. This may or may not work; I am having trouble getting through to earthlink at the moment due, I presume, to server loads, but try http://209.178.49.4/~donnaneely/ Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Even if you finish first in the Rat Race, you're still a rat. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:14:57 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Piers Anthony / cyberpunk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" AJ (gaudit@global.co.za) commented in part: > Piers Anthony's books >are good fun. They're well-written and make easy reading AJ: Anthony's books are NOT well written, IMO. Mass appeal to a certain mentality does not qualtify as quality. ~~~~~~~ I hesitate to recommend it because copies are so very hard to find, but I very much liked WRACK AND ROLL by Bradley Denton, despite its first novel flaws. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:25:33 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems with AOL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I also have problems accessing this site from AOL. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:30:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/98 7:22:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hinshaw@EMAIL.UNC.EDU writes: << Books written from a minority and very angry POV once were best sellers... ex. _Native Son_, _Soul on Ice_. Are only males or members of ethnic groups allowed to be angry and yet still readable? Is the science fiction community less open to differing POVs" than readers of general literature? Have times changed so that only "comfortable" is acceptable? >> Thank you...I was thinking the same thing. You said this very well. I actually stopped buying science fiction in the 70's because it was getting to be so shoot-em-up in space. Since I've been on this list, I have purchased and read at least a dozen books...and enjoyed them no end. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:39:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 23 Jul 98, at 10:16, Robin Reid wrote: > Elgin's (and Russ') books are not found in every bookstore (I > check these things out). Piers Anthony, on the other hand, takes > up an immense amount of space .... I find his portrayal of women > characters ...stereotyped and misogynistic. In reply, Anthea wrote: > You're comparing "apples and pears" here. Piers Anthony's books > are good fun. They're well-written and make easy reading although I > _personally_ find much of his later work irritatingly silly. I agree > that his female characters seem stereotyped but so do the males. The > only misogyny I noticed was restricted to essential parts of the plot. Piers Anthony is what I would call a hack. I think it's ridiculous that so many of his books are taking up shelf space. > But much of Elgin and most of Russ make heavy reading. Elgin's > endless patronising, tendentious diatribes in the first NT book or > the host of pooly developed characters popping out of the > woodwork in "Earthsong" made them difficult to read, hard to > appreciate. Much as I respect Russ' work, I don't always enjoy her > writing because her anger too often threatens to swamp the logic of > her argument. If I didn't have an _absorbing_ interest in her subject, > I'd probably regard her books as unreadable. On the subject of Elgin, I happen to agree. But what does that have to do with sales figures? As must be obvious by now, quite a few people on this list have read AND ENJOYED Elgin's Native Tongue books. I imagine the books could do fairly well if they were republished. As far as Russ goes... what do you mean when you say her anger threatens to swamp her logic? Anger and logic are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps you mean that you find her anger distracting. Well, I and many others don't. In fact, I often find Russ's writing playful and witty, even in the midst of anger (as in *The Female Man*). And a fair portion of her writing is not angry at all. I think she has been unfairly categorized. > > If you count up how many male authors are sold in the genre SF/F > > section, vs. female (let alone feminist), the system is completely > > biassed toward the DEFAULT/MASCULINE view. > > Of course it is but not for the reasons you imply. The "masculine" > books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment > value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, > write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing. > Many feminist authors, on the other hand, appear to write for a > selected readership with strongly exclusive views (I find all Russ' > non-fiction and most fiction work to be like this). They often > "propagandize" more than they entertain (as the NT series amply > demonstrates). Hm. What books are you talking about when you say "masculine books"? I'm confused. There are plenty of male writers who would not say that they write for crass commercial reasons (Piers Anthony might even deny it, though I wouldn't believe him). And many of them certainly don't seem to have much sensitivity to women (the majority of the book-buying public). Just think how big their readership COULD be if they made more of an effort to reflect the reality of women. Though I have been a science fiction fan since my early teens I have largely avoided reading the works of the male "classic" authors such as Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke, Niven, Pournelle, etc. etc. because I found them, when not outright sexist, boring. There are so many other science fiction books out there that I find rewarding (many of them by women) that I see no reason to slog through any more of their works. So I've been voting with my dollars, as have quite a few other women and men, and my impression is that in the past ten years there has been quite an increase in the number of female SF authors being published. Any further imbalance is due, in my mind, to the slowness of certain publishers to "get with it" and realize that there is market hungry for these so-called "niche" books. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:54:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think the problem is just from AOL. I haven't been able to access anything on the EarthLink sites (which include SprintMail accounts) for the last two days. Someone in my company said he had contacted tech support at EarthLink and they informed him that some crucial cable had been cut or was otherwise inoperative. Is ANYONE on the list presently able to access the CRONES page? -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:01:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: BDG MOA, sexuality In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII just wanted to throw in a few comments on the tail end of the whole "sexuality and mists of avalon" conversation...trying not to beat a dead horse. :) i'm another reader who was profoundly affected the first time i read MOA (sometime in high school). later readings have been less and less fulfilling, for many of the reasons that have already been mentioned: the negative portrayal of morgause, avalon's manipulation of nimue, morgaine's frustrating inability to MAKE A DECISION AND DO SOMETHING, ALREADY, the totally irritating characterization of gwenhwyfar, the purple prose, etc. kind of in parallel with the female-sexuality issue, though, i was struck by a comment lancelet made when he revealed his feelings for arthur to morgaine. morgaine tried to comfort him with [paraphrased] "the goddess forgives everything" and lancelet responded with "but this is a rejection of the goddess!" all along i had been intrigued by the idea of lancelet as a closet homosexual, and this quote disturbed me. it contributed to my negative view of avalon as a religion. then the whole issue was pretty much driven underground for the remainder of the book. i never felt like anything was resolved w.r.t. lancelet, except for some generic "he found peace in the end" yadda yadda. (though the same can be said for most of the other characters in the book...) eh, anyway. are there any other arthurian retellings that take a romantic view on the relationship between arthur & lancelot? it seems like a pretty obvious idea. MZB can't be the only one who's done it. delurking, -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:04:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems In-Reply-To: <35B8BC35.DB7FE5E7@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > I don't think the problem is just from AOL. I haven't been able to > access anything on the EarthLink sites (which include SprintMail > accounts) for the last two days. Someone in my company said he had > contacted tech support at EarthLink and they informed him that some > crucial cable had been cut or was otherwise inoperative. Is ANYONE on > the list presently able to access the CRONES page? i'm not able to access it either, and i'm using lynx on my local ISP. i don't think it's AOL. -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:36:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Janice wrote: > . . . I have largely avoided reading the works of the male "classic" > authors such as Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke, Niven, Pournelle, etc. etc. > because I found them, when not outright sexist, boring. There are so many > other science fiction books out there > that I find rewarding (many of them by women) that I see no reason to > slog through any more of their works. So I've been voting with my > dollars . . . I have the same problem. How is it that so much mainstream science fiction fails to appeal to me? My favorite example is the Endymion series by Dan Simmons. My husband read one Simmons after another, but I couldn't get through the first volume. In almost no time I realized I as reading a thinly disguised penetration fantasy. The protagonists traveled on an Apollo type rocket (think Washington Monument), passing through oval gateways (think St. Louis Arch) which transported the travelers to other planets in an interplanetary circuit. The gateways spanned rivers on each planet, and the rocket passed through the gateways into the river and out again. Enormous sections of the book were devoted to describing weaponry. It was penile and orgiastic and violent, and I closed the cover after a few hundred pages. No more Simmons for me. But Daniel keeps buying 'em, and I gaze at him, wondering what it is about this wonderful, egalitarian man that he enjoys these books so. I cannot relate. Candice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:12:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Endymion (spoilers!) In-Reply-To: <35B8C632.C31A8F9D@athenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Candice wrote: > I have the same problem. How is it that so much mainstream science fiction > fails to appeal to me? My favorite example is the Endymion series by Dan > Simmons. My husband read one Simmons after another, but I couldn't get > through the first volume. In almost no time I realized I as reading a > thinly disguised penetration fantasy. The protagonists traveled on an > Apollo type rocket (think Washington Monument), passing through oval > gateways (think St. Louis Arch) which transported the travelers to other > planets in an interplanetary circuit. The gateways spanned rivers on each > planet, and the rocket passed through the gateways into the river and out > again. Enormous sections of the book were devoted to describing > weaponry. It was penile and orgiastic and violent, and I closed the cover > after a few hundred pages. No more Simmons for me. I apologize in advance for being abrupt, but this analogy is simply one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. This interpretation has nothing to do with the book at hand but rather is the result of forcing preconceived notions about sf adventure/quest/space opera stories onto it. _Endymion_, _The Rise of Endymion_, and the Hyperion books before them are some of the best written, most imaginative, and most intelligent sf ever written, especially in the subgenre of Space Opera (in which the competition isn't that tough). Are all "Apollo type rockets" now autmatically penile? If you had continued to read the books you would have discovered that they abandon the rocket and spend more time travelling on a raft. It is not true that enormous sections of the book are devoted to describing weaponry, merely that Simmons describes them with the same care he describes everything else. Nor is the work a celebration of violence. Far from it. There is violence in the book, but it exists within the context of a larger message. That message is one of love and of transcendence and of respect for all life, and it is a message delivered by a very strong and intelligent female character. These books are very moving and powerful. I'm baffled as to why anyone would want to reduce them to the status of a wet dream. Granted, space operas are certainly not to everybody's taste. The form seems to suggest infinite possibilities but is actually quite confining. I read very few of them. But excellent work is still excellent work. John Bertland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:03:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I am using Sprint/Earthlink and accessed the page couple days ago and posted a little note...it could be the servers connection out here in southern california last week about monday or tuesday sprint had 790 T-1 lines go out on them which left people in Corona/Riverside/San Bernardino accounts unable to receive any email or telnet to places...took the entire day to get the system in our neck of the woods back online. I am rather peeved when AOL is mentioned due to the trouble I had with them... I was trying to critique for the Critters Workshop...the system at AOL that would forward my replies to the workshop would end up in some sort of limbo, so when the guy in charge of the workshop sent a notice that none of the replies from the members of the workshop who had AOL were getting through to his server, as well as explaining he has been trying to remedy the situation for several months to no avail, I cancelled my account and I told the fellow on the phone there were a whole lot of people he will be hearing from if the server remained unfixed... anyway, I notice the CRONE page is in a forum...could the browser try to locate the homepage of the forum first maybe and then proceed to the right page? was thinking back to this site I was trying to look at and I backtracked and put in the main address first then looked up the page I needed and it loaded...sometimes when I used the direct address with all the slashes it tells me it isnt there when it is...have not figured that one out yet shrug...oh and I am on Explorer 8) Jo Ann At 12:54 PM 7/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >I don't think the problem is just from AOL. I haven't been able to >access anything on the EarthLink sites (which include SprintMail >accounts) for the last two days. Someone in my company said he had >contacted tech support at EarthLink and they informed him that some >crucial cable had been cut or was otherwise inoperative. Is ANYONE on >the list presently able to access the CRONES page? > >-- >Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT >http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm >Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria >"Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: temporary absence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry to leave when there are such interesting discussions going on, but I'll be out of the office for a couple of weeks. Will rejoin when I return! Feel free to email me personally, but I'm unsubscribing from allthe listservs because of limited email space. Blessed Be, Robin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:40:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: CRONES accessed succesfully In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980724180330.006ddb98@Silent-Running.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello all. Using Netscape Communicator and a university ISP in NY, I just sucessfully connected to the CRONES site at 5:37 EST. Perhaps they fixed the problem at Earthlink? Just checked out Cordelia's Honor, War of the Oaks and Dazzle of Day from the Library, which is missing the first two books before The Last Hawk.... must I read the first two to get _Hawk_? Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:57:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: Endymion (spoilers!) In-Reply-To: from "John Bertland" at Jul 24, 98 02:12:20 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Candice wrote: > > I have the same problem. How is it that so much mainstream science fiction > > fails to appeal to me? My favorite example is the Endymion series by Dan > > Simmons. My husband read one Simmons after another, but I couldn't get > > through the first volume. In almost no time I realized I as reading a > > thinly disguised penetration fantasy. The protagonists traveled on an > > Apollo type rocket (think Washington Monument), passing through oval > > gateways (think St. Louis Arch) which transported the travelers to other > > planets in an interplanetary circuit. The gateways spanned rivers on each > > planet, and the rocket passed through the gateways into the river and out > > again. Enormous sections of the book were devoted to describing > > weaponry. It was penile and orgiastic and violent, and I closed the cover > > after a few hundred pages. No more Simmons for me. > As usual YMMV but this seems nothing like the series I'm reading... I'm in the midst of reading the second book in the Hyperion series and so far I like the books and the characters. There are several very strong female characters and while I wouldn't characterize the book as "feminist" the female characters aren't just there as window dressing or sex objects. (Through there are sexual situations in the book.) Simmons adds an interesting twist by adding references to John Keats and those around him as well as references to his work. (There is a Byron, a Brawne, a "Keats" and a "City of Poets.") Take care, Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:04:28 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <35B8B8BE.42386F7E@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Jul 98, at 12:39, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > Piers Anthony is what I would call a hack. I think it's ridiculous that so > many of his books are taking up shelf space. Hacks sell. Look at Stephen King or Dean Koontz who churn out essentially the same book year after year and always get obscenely large advances. > On the subject of Elgin, I happen to agree. But what does that have to do > with sales figures? As must be obvious by now, quite a few people on this > list have read AND ENJOYED Elgin's Native Tongue books. I imagine the > books could do fairly well if they were republished. I can't agree. There's a big difference between a special interest group like this list and the general SF reading public. The difficulty Elgin had in getting "Earthsong" published shows that the market for her fiction was dubious in 1992/3. Why should her work do better now than it did when it was at least a bit fresher? > As far as Russ goes... what do you mean when you say her anger > threatens to swamp her logic? Anger and logic are not mutually > exclusive. Perhaps you mean that you find her anger distracting. On the contrary, her anger, perhaps "rage" is a better word, colours all her writing. I can discount the rage to some measure but I find that her rage is an essential part of her arguments. The problem is that she rages against a world long gone, and against enemies defeated or fighting a last futile rearguard action. _I_ read her work although _I_ do not always find it easy, but I question whether there are many other people prepared to make the same effort. A friend on another list refers to her "What..." as the feminists' "A Brief History of Time" - the sort of book people buy to show that they're "intellectuals" but never bother to read. > Well, I and many others don't. In fact, I often find Russ's writing > playful and witty, even in the midst of anger (as in *The Female > Man*). And a fair portion of her writing is not angry at all. I > think she has been unfairly categorized. I'm sure that a lot of people said analogous things about Hawkings' book BUT if he hadn't caught public imagination at just the right time, his book would very likely sunk without trace. Instead it became a topic of conversation at cocktail parties where not one of the guests would have known a black hole if it bit them. > Hm. What books are you talking about when you say "masculine books"? I'm > confused. There are plenty of male writers who would not say that they > write for crass commercial reasons (Piers Anthony might even deny it, > though I wouldn't believe him). The phrase was a quote from Robin Reid and encompassed the "general" type of SF popularly displayed in bookstores. > And many of them certainly don't seem to have much sensitivity to > women (the majority of the book-buying public). Just think how big > their readership COULD be if they made more of an effort to reflect > the reality of women. Perhaps they believe/know that what they produce is what the buying public like - certainly their sales bear this out. Anyway who is to say what "reflect[s] the reality of women"? Your reality or my reality or the reality of the many women (judging by sales) like Piers Anthony, David Eddings and his ilk? > and my impression is that in the past ten years there has been > quite an increase in the number of female SF authors being > published. Here I agree with you although I don't have any hard evidence to back it up but... > Any further imbalance is due, in my mind, to the slowness of > certain publishers to "get with it" and realize that there is > market hungry for these so-called "niche" books. ...here I don't for the reasons I've listed. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:04:28 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <7d7beec5.35b8b6a8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Jul 98, at 12:30, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > Thank you...I was thinking the same thing. You said this very > well. I actually stopped buying science fiction in the 70's > because it was getting to be so shoot-em-up in space. Since I've > been on this list, I have purchased and read at least a dozen > books...and enjoyed them no end. One of the problems I see is that none of us actually know what the sales of "feminist SF" or indeed any other type of SF/F (at least no one's mentioned it). Are there no publishers (or even publishers' devils) with access to this information? Or what about librarians with access to computerized borrowing records from which we could estimate this? AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:04:27 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <19980724142139Z222565-3822+297@listserv.oit.unc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Jul 98, at 10:21, Becky Hinshaw wrote: > Books written from a minority and very angry POV once were > best sellers... ex. _Native Son_, _Soul on Ice_. Are only males > or members of ethnic groups allowed to be angry and yet still > readable? My intention was not to pass judgment on the basic "worth" of the books. The "worth" of a book is contextual and thus always a matter of debate. I simply pointed out why _I_ thought the books didn't sell a fraction as well as books of what myself and others would regard as of lesser intrinsic "worth". Wright's and Cleaver's books are, though, in a very different class from Elgin's or Russ', but it's tempting to ask how much of a stir they'd make if they'd been for the first time published this year. > Is the science fiction community less open to differing POVs" than > readers of general literature? Have times changed so that only > "comfortable" is acceptable? No, I don't think so except in the trivial sense that there are many more general than SF readers. Books are products like any other; they won't sell unless people think they offer value for money. > Thinking like this is why local book sellers are losing business to > amazon.com? Doesn't that prove my point? Check AZMN on Nasdaq but I don't think they've made a profit yet! In fact I don't see how they're ever going to make a profit - the way they do business. > I agree [about Piers Anthony} only with" irritatingly silly. " Sales of his books (and presumably his bank balance) prove that a lot of people disagree with you (and me). > Inclusive of who? Aliens, having only the contents of the usual > bookstore's sci-fi section to read, would have to assume 98% of humans > were "white" and 90% were males (who spent most of their time shooting > weapons at others). And the SF book buying public obviously likes it that way. I get the feeling that the "90% male" is NOW a serious overestimate; I would, perhaps, go for 70%. > I have been reading and buying Sci-Fi for 40 years and am female > and a feminist. I read this genre to FIND differing POV. If the > books were on the shelf, I (and others) would buy them. Again, I've always wondered how many of the great classics of feminist SF would find publishers today; more importantly, even if they were published, would many people buy them now that militant feminism is no longer fashionable (as Time reminded us recently). AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:23:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Endymion (spoilers!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of this talk about Dan Simmons, I thought I'd put in my two cents. I think classifying Endymion as "penile, orgiastic and violent" isn't fair, but I also don't see what the fuss is all about. I think he's pretty run-of-the-mill. Making references to poet's names isn't exactly what I would call "adding an interesting twist". So he's read Keats and Byron. So have I. Big deal. He's not feminist, and his "strong female characters" aren't half as interesting as some of those discussed on this listserv invented by other authors. I did like Hyperion the best of his works; but even that... well, maybe it was because all of my sf-reading friends said "This is awesome! You have to read this! It's one of the best books I've ever read!" etc. etc. So I read it, and thought "well, it's not a BAD book, but..." Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:34:27 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems with AOL In-Reply-To: <35B8AC09348.0FEFCATWEASEL@outmail1.cableinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I suspect this may be due to AOL's heavy-handed policies to protect its > customers from the horrors of the big bad internet, but I could be > wrong. > > The IP address for home.earthlink.net is 209.178.49.4. This may or may > not work; I am having trouble getting through to earthlink at the moment > due, I presume, to server loads, but try > http://209.178.49.4/~donnaneely/ Profuse apologies. Now that earthlink has sorted its connection problems I find that they use dynamic addressing, displaying an error page in response to any attempt to use an IP address. This precludes the possibility of circumventing the AOL/earthlink clash with direct addressing. Oh well, I tried. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:43:06 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: fast & dirty market research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is a fast and dirty market research I did in June. Called up the top- selling fantasy/historical books on amazon.com and looked for: were they new books? reprints? anthologies? and, did they have a strong heroine as protagonist? FYI. 50 Top Fantasy-Historical Sellers from Amazon.Com 6/12/98 Pub New/Reissue/Anthology/Strong Heroine Ace 0/1/0/0 Avon 4/5/3/1 Baen 1/1 Ballentine 0/1/0/1 Bantam 0/1/0/0 Bantam/Spectra 0/7/0/1 Del Rey 2/0/0/0 Harper Collins 1/0/0/1 HarperMass Mkt 0/3/0/0 Harper/Prism 1/0/0/0 HoughtonMiff 1/2/0/0 NewAmerLib 1/1/0/1 Pocket 1/0/0/1 Roc 0/1/0/0 Viking 1/0/0/0 Warner 5/1/2/0 Does not add up to 50 because some were different reissues of same title, especially Tolkien and Bradley's Mists of Avalon. These were listed as "Fantasy - Historical." All of those with strong heroines were written by women. Interesting.... phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:59:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: Endymion reflections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The _Hyperion_ series is one of my favorites. Yes, it is violent (I have a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do, too. There is a large part of me that is violent, repressively so. One does not "do" violence in most societies--especially not if you're a woman.). Yes, it is penile to a great extent (I mean, spikes all over the big black monster??? But what of it? Penile objects can be enjoyable, whether made of silicon, or flesh, or metal... Penetration does have two sides to it, after all.). Yes, the narrator speaks from within the metal egg/womb. So, much penetration leads back to that. Eh, and then we're human. There are some minor logical and scientific flaws which a friend of mine in the know pointed out, but hell, I'm in the humanities, and it sure -sounded- plausible enough. I enjoyed Hyperion and the Fall most of all, but Endymion was still fun... and not once did I identify with the major female character. Instead, it was with the monster: alien and rejected, and forever beleaguered. But I bet you a lot of men identify with that monster too. Space opera works because the majority of people I know who can enjoy it feel disenfranchised in their worlds--and this includes men. Heroes (male or female, but at least male heroes are more traditional, and thus plausible) are meant to serve as wanna-be models--not as role models. I have no significant difficulty in identifying with a male protagonist, as long as they are intelligently written, and engage in actions that fall within my own ethical parameters. As far as I can remember, Simmons does not engage in anti-women discourse or portray such actions. I'd have to reread in a more critical fashion to reexamine the narratorial voice from the point of view of gender, but if I recall correctly, he does some very interesting things with that... So, I'm glad I get to enjoy the Hyperion series. *glee* It's always so much fun to find a really -devouring- book... Heather =) __________________________________________ "Output of your job hmaclean: > Reality is only a question of language. Unknown command - "REALITY". Try HELP." -------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:09:08 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Miscellaneous Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Somebody said: Cyberpunk short story collections with some women authors: Jack Dann and Garner Dozois: Hackers (incl. Cadigan and Dorsey); Sterling: Mirrorshades Does this mean what I think it says? Jack Dann and Garner Dozois are women authors? ??? Somebody else mentioned that Elgin's first published story if "For the Sake of Grace." Yes. Get it. Read it. And then read Joanna Russ novel, The Two of Them, which borrows the general setting and takes off from there. And yet a third person said: Of course it is but not for the reasons you imply. The "masculine" books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing. Many feminist authors, on the other hand, appear to write for a selected readership with strongly exclusive views (I find all Russ' non-fiction and most fiction work to be like this). They often "propagandize" more than they entertain (as the NT series amply demonstrates). Can we blame the "system" for bias if feminist SF/F authors deliberately marginalize themselves? This reminds me SOOOOOO much of Russ' sentiments in "How to Suppress Women's Writing." It's not good enough because it's not commercial enough. It's not commercial enough because it's too angry. It's too angry because it's too feminist. It's too feminist because it's not commercial enough. Just my two cents. I thought someone from the "selected readership" ought to speak up. Sharon Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:45:40 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems with AOL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Oddly enough, I had no problem accessing through Eh, Oh Hell on the first night it was up. But definitely the second. --Todd Mason. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:03:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/98 4:02:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: << Are there no publishers (or even publishers' devils) with access to this information? Or what about librarians with access to computerized borrowing records from which we could estimate this? >> I don't think that would give us the answer, because you can't borrow or buy what isn't on the shelves. I have been a feminist for ages, and simply did not know these kinds of books were available. I got so discouraged at the bookstores that I haven't even gone and looked at the SF section. For some reason this reminds me of Fruit of the Loom, and how the first person on staff to suggest they sell underware for women got hooted out of the room. Everyone knew that women only want frilly lace pink things. I just don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to realize that women, like men, like to read books that mirror their history, daily lives, intelectual aspirations, angers, and world. In the past, I read science fiction (as opposed to mysteries and westerns) because its very nature was to broaden horizons and force the reader to see a different view. Books that include us, our pains and razor-sharp humor and logical extremes, are past due. The publishers are missing a bet by assuming (?) that women only want emotionally kind stories. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:14:03 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/98 4:05:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: << Again, I've always wondered how many of the great classics of feminist SF would find publishers today; more importantly, even if they were published, would many people buy them now that militant feminism is no longer fashionable (as Time reminded us recently). >> Dang. Not fashionable??? Time magazine (goddess abide, eveyone KNOWS Time magazine has the pulse of the American public)! Tell you what, toots, you come on in to one of my classes some day when one of my students comes in with a broken nose because her boyfriend can't take it that she's getting good grades, I'll show you a little unfashionable militant feminism. Only, be sure you don't sit in the sunshine chair...the one eveyone avoids when it rains, because the roof leaks and there is no money for school because the guys in power have better things to spend our taxes on. You come on in and see the terrible courage of single young women with children, or older women who are coming back to school, or Native Americans trying to make a life, and I'll show you women whose daily heroism is warranted no movies or TV shows or Books that tell of the physical philosophies that burn in their hearts. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <64e42e9c.35b92ecf@aol.com> (DMadrone@AOL.COM) Just to add my $.02 to various bits of the discussion... ...it is my impression (buttressed by various comments in the literature) that the overwhelming majority of sf books are bought by male reader ages 12-17. From what I understand, the demographic has changed somewhat and there are more women and adults reading sf, but the biggest audience is teenaged boys. So it's hardly surprising that a lot of books are written that appeal to that audience. I think Piers Anthony definitely falls into this category. I enjoyed all of Elgin's Native Tongue books (and the others I've read by her). Her explanation of a singularity is one of the best I've ever read. I'm a relatively young reader (29) but I didn't find her anger overwhelming at all. OTOH, I have long identified my own sexism in expecting less from men than I do from women, so perhaps I share Elgin's bias here. While I thought that Hyperion had some interesting ideas, I found it to be one of the most poorly edited books I've read. Typos, verbosity, inconsistencies, etc. I found it extremely "male" in outlook. I don't tend to analyze books along Freudian lines (that was drummed out of me by an exasperated Freshman English instructor who made us do Freudian analysis of household objects to get it out of our systems...I chose Jiffy Pop :), but I cannot now even recall the female characters. I read the second one and then gave up. E. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:53:35 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm.............. I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray -- Anthea wrote (re J. Russ): > On the contrary, her anger, perhaps "rage" is a better word, colours > all her writing. I can discount the rage to some measure but I find > that her rage is an essential part of her arguments. The problem is > that she rages against a world long gone, and against enemies > defeated or fighting a last futile rearguard action. > Really? A world long gone? Say, are you sure you're from our planet? Seriously, just because certain segments of the population of certain areas of the world (such as the more well-to-do parts) have, at least on the surface, accepted women as full-fledged human beings and it is no longer _official_ policy to treat the female of the species like a stupid child or a draft animal doesn't mean that the "world" Russ foments against is long gone, not by any means. There is still the Whole Rest of the World, that is not the USA and Western Europe, where women are still, if I may use the apparently declasse word, "oppressed." > _I_ read her work > although _I_ do not always find it easy, but I question whether > there are many other people prepared to make the same effort. > While it is true that there are people who don't like to read "difficult" books, or indeed do anything that might strain their brains, I don't really see a need to even count such peoples' opinions. > > A friend on another list refers to her "What..." as the feminists' "A > Brief History of Time" - the sort of book people buy to show that > they're "intellectuals" but never bother to read. > Well, I have it. I read it. And I am sure that everyone on this list who has the bok has read it, so I don't know why your friend's observation up in _this_ list. And I've never met anyone who bought "A Brief History..." only to _not_ read it -- books are expensive in my circle, and if _my_ friends by books you can bet they get read. Lilith -- I dare you -- to be real; To touch -- to touch the flickering flame.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:56:19 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: CRONES site accessing problems continued... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone -- Well, I've read all the posts about access problems, and now I am thoroughly confused as to what the problem could be! Some people emailed me that they _were_ able to access the site, so... Let's give it another day or two -- maybe it is the outage in California that is causing all the problems. (That might also explain why I've had a few problems with accessing the internet since I use Concentric, which is based in California.) Lilith -- I dare you -- to be real; To touch -- to touch the flickering flame.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:23:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthea wrote: >>>One of the problems I see is that none of us actually know what the sales of "feminist SF" or indeed any other type of SF/F (at least no one's mentioned it). Are there no publishers (or even publishers' devils) with access to this information? Or what about librarians with access to computerized borrowing records from which we could estimate this? Well, I know what the sales figures are, although I admit that publishers are loath to admit them, unless they are spectacularly good. Why should we, when bad figures will predispose readers to ignore our books? Anyway, I work for a company (DAW) that has an extremely good record of keeping books in print, because our corporate strategy is to support our backlist. On the other hand, we will put books out of print if we are consistently losing money and there is no prospect of ever changing that fact. We're a business and must make money to continue publishing. It may be true that you and your friends like a book, but if only a few people buy it in a year, we're gonna lose money! You may say, "oh, that's terrible, they're only out for a profit," but I and my colleagues have to pay bills, and we can't do that if no one buys our books. SF publishing just doesn't pull in Microsoft-level profits. Debra Euler ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:42:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Comments: To: ligeia@CONCENTRIC.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lilith wrote: >>While it is true that there are people who don't like to read "difficult" books, or indeed do anything that might strain their brains, I don't really see a need to even count such peoples' opinions. Well, bully for you, Lilith. Some of us, even those of us who possess brains, well-educated brains, sometimes like to sit down and just enjoy something that doesn't make us think too much. Are those people who don't, as a general rule, like to sit down and strain their brains after a hard day working for their daily bread, as good as you? I guess you don't think so. I guess we don't deserve to be entertained after a long day sustaining the economy that allows you to develop your beliefs. A world of cultural elites that sounds oddly like SF. Doesn't it? Debra ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:08:36 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debra -- I really think you missed my point -- I was not out to dis "light entertainment"; I just wanted to say that just because some people might not want to make an effort to read something they might find difficult, such as the writings of Joanna Russ, was no reason to condemn the work itself. And as a fact what I have read of Ms. Russ's was not difficult at all to grasp, and yes I do work all day and come home tired at night. I like "light entertainment" too -- but if it is thoroughly empty of substance I find that it just enervates me more, but then perhaps I am strange. Lilith > Lilith wrote: > >>While it is true that there are people who don't like to read > "difficult" books, or indeed do anything that might strain their brains, > I don't really see a need to even count such peoples' opinions. > > Well, bully for you, Lilith. Some of us, even those of us who possess > brains, well-educated brains, sometimes like to sit down and just enjoy > something that doesn't make us think too much. Are those people who don't, > as a general rule, like to sit down and strain their brains after a hard > day > working for their daily bread, as good as you? I guess you don't think so. > I guess we don't deserve to be entertained after a long day sustaining the > economy that allows you to develop your beliefs. > > A world of cultural elites that sounds oddly like SF. > > Doesn't it? > > Debra > -- I dare you -- to be real; To touch -- to touch the flickering flame.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:53:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: sales of feminist SF books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anthea wrote, re: SF publishers: >Perhaps they believe/know that what they produce is what the >buying public like - certainly their sales bear this out. Anyway who >is to say what "reflect[s] the reality of women"? Your reality or my >reality or the reality of the many women (judging by sales) like >Piers Anthony, David Eddings and his ilk? "Which came first, the product or the demand?" (My own version of a cliche question.) Perhaps we will never know. It's like nature or nurture, in a way. But one thing that advertisers HAVE figured out over the years is that the greater the exposure to and knowledge of a product, the more likely someone is to buy it. Surely you don't disagree that women buy a lot of books. I don't see anything inherent in science fiction that prevents women from buying it; it's just gotten a bad rep over the years because of all those white male authors writing for their own little niche of white male adolescents. But if women come to understand that science fiction is now available that makes sense to them, they may begin to purchase more books in a genre that they have traditionally viewed as uninteresting and/or outright hostile to them. As I said, I think this is already coming to pass. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:21:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Joanna Russ and her anger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anthea wrote: >Her anger, perhaps "rage" is a better word, colours >all her writing. I can discount the rage to some measure but I find >that her rage is an essential part of her arguments. The problem is >that she rages against a world long gone, and against enemies >defeated or fighting a last futile rearguard action. _I_ read her work >although _I_ do not always find it easy, but I question whether >there are many other people prepared to make the same effort. Perhaps we should resort to specifics here... how exactly does her rage color, for example, *And Chaos Died*? Or her short story "Souls"? How much Russ have you read? A world long gone... here again I would like some specifics. I did not find *The Female Man* at all dated in 1990 (the last time I read it). I just read in the paper how the US Congress has voted to override President Clinton's veto of an anti-abortion bill that would make it harder for teenagers to have abortions. Bit by bit the victories that were won in the 1970s are being whittled away. And women continue to make $.72 to the male dollar. And every week or so I hear about the latest wife-killing. So please give me some hard evidence as to how things are all well and good for women in the United States and how Russ' rage is inappropriate. >A friend on another list refers to her "What..." as the feminists' "A >Brief History of Time" - the sort of book people buy to show that >they're "intellectuals" but never bother to read. Already? The book was published a scant four months ago. Did your friend look into some crystal ball to learn that no one will ever bother to read it? (I've been reading it all week, and am looking forward to the CRONES discussion.) ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:12:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Anthea wrote: (snip) > By the same token can one reasonably expect booksellers to stock works > for which there is only a limited sale? I guess for some books it is fairly easy to see that it won't sell. But book publishers too often play it safe. Why do you think there are so many books on the SF shelves written by "hack" writters (I won't name names)? Why are there so many books written in a series? Because if an author or mileau is successful once then publishers are going to keep on plugging into that formula. The biggest problem with this is that there is less room for cutting edge or controversial books. Publishers don't want to take chances. So readers get a steady diet of slop and drivel. When something different comes along there is one of two reactions: "Ow, my brain hurts. This is too hard" or "Wow, this is great stuff! Where can I get more!" People who have the second reaction end up on lists like this one. They are willing to hunt down and spend their hard earned money on books that might not appeal to the mainstream. I guess it kind of saddens me that so much shelf space in the SF/F section is devoted to the tried and true and so little is devoted to the unusual. That seems strange considering that science fiction is -supposed- to be about the unusual. I spent the past few days visiting 3 different bookstores. It was just depressing. I saw the same books in the same large quantaties taking up row after row of shelf space at all three stores. The same authors popped up again and again. Whole shelves were devoted to a particular author. Only at the small non-chain bookstore was there any variety. Sorry for the rant. (snip) > You're comparing "apples and pears" here. Piers Anthony's books > are good fun. They're well-written and make easy reading although I > _personally_ find much of his later work irritatingly silly. I agree that > his female characters seem stereotyped but so do the males. The > only misogyny I noticed was restricted to essential parts of the plot. I gave up on Anthony after the umpteenth Xanth novel came out. The first three were okay but gimme a break! How many variations on a pun can you make without causing brain damage in your readers? (snip) > Of course it is but not for the reasons you imply. The "masculine" > books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment > value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, > write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing. > Many feminist authors, on the other hand, appear to write for a > selected readership with strongly exclusive views (I find all Russ' > non-fiction and most fiction work to be like this). They often > "propagandize" more than they entertain (as the NT series amply > demonstrates). "Without preaching or lecturing", don't make me laugh! Some of the worst books I have read were written by men who wanted to push their opinion more than they wanted to write a good story. Heinlein's later books come immediately to mind. Most male SF writers do not write "inclusively" otherwise I would read them more often. > Can we blame the "system" for bias if feminist SF/F authors > deliberately marginalize themselves? I'm not sure that they do. I think that many feminist writers make a real effort to write "inclusively". I guess it's just too bad that writing from a feminist viewpoint doesn't appeal to the adolescent boys that the majority of SF is marketed to. > AJ > ----------------------------------------- > gaudit@global.co.za > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:45:39 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <35B93A9F.B090C267@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Jul 98, at 21:53, Lilith wrote: > Really? A world long gone? Say, are you sure you're from our planet? No, not really! I live and work in the "Third World" which is a billion miles from the planet you live on. > There is still the Whole Rest of the World, that is not the > USA and Western Europe, where women are still, if I may use the > apparently declasse word, "oppressed." It's not my intention to start arguing politics or economics but much of east and central Africa are as bad as they are because of cultural imperialism based on political and economic policies like those Russ advocates. Russ has many good points, but she clings to the outdated shibboleths of a socialism which have wreaked havoc in this part of the world. > While it is true that there are people who don't like to read > "difficult" books, or indeed do anything that might strain their brains, I > don't really see a need to even count such peoples' opinions. But they are the ones who have to buy hers' and similar works to make them commercial viable. > Well, I have it. I read it. And I am sure that everyone on this list who > has the bok has read it, so I don't know why your friend's observation up > in _this_ list. And I've never met anyone who bought "A Brief History..." > only to _not_ read it -- books are expensive in my circle, and if _my_ > friends by books you can bet they get read. Perhaps, as I've stressed before, this is a selected group comprised of people with a special interest in the subject. My comment referred to what might be described as the less elite "hoi polloi". Quite a few people I know amongst our fashionable donors frequently buy the "in books" with no intention of reading them. The friend to who I was referring runs an "instant authority" service - she writes one page, simplified _personalized_ reviews on currently fashionable books or plays so that her clients can air their knowledge without the need to turn any pages. The comments made on the "Brief History..." are not original but have been made by many - even in the august pages of our most prestigious journals. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:45:39 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <35B95A44.BBD652EB@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 0:08, Lilith wrote: > I was not out to dis "light entertainment"; I just wanted to say that just > because some people might not want to make an effort to read something > they might find difficult, such as the writings of Joanna Russ, was no > reason to condemn the work itself. It is though enough to condemn it as a "commercially viable" work. At one time publishers would cross-subsidize the publication of "worthy" works using the profits from mass-selling novels, but it didn't make business sense then and it's not gotten any better. > And as a fact what I have read of Ms. Russ's was not difficult at > all to grasp For you and I perhaps, but even her most fervent supporters wouldn't call her "light" reading. People buy books that are easy to read, interesting and _just_ meaty enough to offer a slight challenge. Any visit to a reasonably sized book store shows this. > and yes I do work all day and come home tired at night. I like > "light entertainment" too -- but if it is thoroughly empty of > substance I find that it just enervates me more, but then perhaps I > am strange. I'm going to stick my neck out because I don't know Amereican bookstores well. But looking at the SF/F shelves, one doesn't see an overwhelming proportion of light, "empty" books. Many of them provide some challenge, not enough but some, and they entertain. Often they're long - the average must be what, 300-350 pages? - more than an evening's read I would think. But they don't demand constant attention, backtracking, following footnotes, little side trips into digressions, Russ does. Russ is, I find, fatiguing and rewarding. Most people, and I don't blame them, would, I believe, find the reward too small for the faigue involved. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:45:39 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <82ab723.35b9315c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Jul 98, at 21:14, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > Dang. Not fashionable??? Time magazine (goddess abide, eveyone KNOWS > Time magazine has the pulse of the American public)! Tell you what, > toots, you come on in to one of my classes some day when one of my > students comes in with a broken nose because her boyfriend can't take it > that she's getting good grades, I'll show you a little unfashionable > militant feminism. I'm stationed in South Africa and work throughout central, southern and east Africa. That statement alone should make it unnecessary for me to continue but... I see women and girls living in filthy, disease- and crime-ridden squatter camps, in corrugated iron and cardboard shacks, without clean water or basic services, where starvation, AIDS, TB, rape, forced prostitution, unwanted pregnancies are facts of daily life. I've seen hundreds of dead, skeletal children with hunger-bloated bellies. I don't need lessons on what terrible courage is... none of us who live and work in the Third World do. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:45:39 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <00a801bdb77b$8907eba0$59c4accf@993110h> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Jul 98, at 23:23, Debra wrote: > Anyway, I work for a company (DAW) that has an extremely good record of keeping > books in print, because our corporate strategy is to support our backlist. > On the other hand, we will put books out of print if we are consistently > losing money and there is no prospect of ever changing that fact. Daw's record is well-known in this respect and I. for one, have had occasion to be thankful for it. My own observations were actually based on my volunteer work with a "Third World" EU-subsidized publisher dealing with publications for the newly literate in African languages. Even under such "favourable circumstances", we still have to act commercially rendering many books with a small if devoted readership unpublishable. > We're a business and must make money to continue publishing. It > may be true that you and your friends like a book, but if only a > few people buy it in a year, we're gonna lose money! This is exactly the point I've been trying to make. Not that I don't like Russ or similar authors, simply that no enough _other_ people do to make certain books commercial propositions. > You may say, "oh, that's terrible, they're only out for a profit," > but I and my colleagues have to pay bills, and we can't do that if > no one buys our books. SF publishing just doesn't pull in > Microsoft-level profits. It can be heart-breaking at times. Especially when working with languages that are dying, swamped say by English. But if a publisher doesn't break even (or - in your case - make a reasonable profit) a lot more people suffer. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:08:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kathleen Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <64e42e9c.35b92ecf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: >> much good stuff snipped << . Books that include us, our pains and razor-sharp > humor and logical extremes, are past due. The publishers are missing a bet by > assuming (?) that women only want emotionally kind stories. > >From Charnas's Walk to the End of the World: "'Why did she run?' 'Fems are creatures of impulse.' 'Nonsense,' he snapped. 'That's obviously the last thing you can afford to be.' Thank you for reminding us that the current media scum and their lackeys are not by a long shot all that there is. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 03:34:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I wonder whether "angry at men" books could be more popular if they were more "fun", or it's just "misogynistic" stuff is more likely to be considered entertaining? This is not a rethorical question. I'm always wondering why Thelma and Louise is often considered a "male-bashing" movie, while all the numerous presentations of women as evil, stupid, selfish, treacherous, manipulative, or anything else, is never called "female-bashing". Think about this: about half of all Hollywood movies (or so it seems) have the leading female character being a prostitute. I mean, when female characters have any occupation other than being the hero's love interest. At least one of the Oscar nominations for the best actress _every year_ is for playing a hooker -- ever noticed that? Could it accurately represent the percentage of women doing that in real life? Or is it just because the idea of a woman whose main purpose in life is to please men seems so attractive male artists (directors, screenplay writers, producers, etc.) that they just cannot stop making movies about them? I swear, if two hundred years from now, someone tries to figure out what our life now was like, they'll probably decide that the main profession for females was walking the streets. Because in movies, it sure beats all other occupations for women combined. Back to the question. In the majority of stories presented by mass culture, including the "high art", male protagonist has a mother/gilfriend/wife/evil grade-school teacher that "does not understand" the hero and makes his life utterly miserable. In the end, he usually proves himself and "shows" her, or dies, leaving no doubt that it's all her fault. It's kind of a "normal" average storyline that people have seen and heard a zillion times and in most cases did not recognize any political agenda in it. It is simply entertainment. However, when the same thing is put the other way around -- a woman persecuted by evil males -- it's always considered "feminist propaganda". I just wonder whether it's because we are more used to see women being put down than men in the same situation., so we don't react as strongly. Or it's that angry women are not as much fun in their bashing process to captivate people even if they do not agree. Marina On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Anthea wrote: > On 23 Jul 98, at 10:16, Robin Reid wrote: > > > But--check out bookstores. How often do you find Elgin's books? Lots of > > them are not in print. She's written about how hard it was to get the > > third book in the N.T. trilogy in print. > > Are you not choosing a bad example here? Firstly Elgin wrote the > NT series for a tightly-focused niche market; her works were > calculated to offend anyone not already a convert. Can one expect > men (and women without anger towards men) to buy books which > refer to them in patronizing, insulting terms? By the same token > can one reasonably expect booksellers to stock works for which > there is only a limited sale? > > Secondly, "Earthsong" was - I think by general argeement - the > worst written of the trilogy. Had it not been billed as the last of a > trilogy and therefore (presumably) had a captive market, I would > have thought it unpublishable. It was the first of Elgin's books I > read; I thought it so bad, I didn't bother to buy the other two for two > years - and then only because they were VERY cheap. > > > Elgin's (and Russ') books are not found in every bookstore (I > > check these things out). Piers Anthony, on the other hand, takes > > up an immense amount of space .... I find his portrayal of women > > characters ...stereotyped and misogynistic. > > You're comparing "apples and pears" here. Piers Anthony's books > are good fun. They're well-written and make easy reading although I > _personally_ find much of his later work irritatingly silly. I agree that > his female characters seem stereotyped but so do the males. The > only misogyny I noticed was restricted to essential parts of the plot. > > But much of Elgin and most of Russ make heavy reading. Elgin's > endless patronising, tendentious diatribes in the first NT book or > the host of pooly developed characters popping out of the > woodwork in "Earthsong" made them difficult to read, hard to > appreciate. Much as I respect Russ' work, I don't always enjoy her > writing because her anger too often threatens to swamp the logic of > her argument. If I didn't have an _absorbing_ interest in her subject, > I'd probably regard her books as unreadable. > > > If you count up how many male authors are sold in the genre SF/F > > section, vs. female (let alone feminist), the system is completely > > biassed toward the DEFAULT/MASCULINE view. > > Of course it is but not for the reasons you imply. The "masculine" > books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment > value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, > write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing. > Many feminist authors, on the other hand, appear to write for a > selected readership with strongly exclusive views (I find all Russ' > non-fiction and most fiction work to be like this). They often > "propagandize" more than they entertain (as the NT series amply > demonstrates). > > Can we blame the "system" for bias if feminist SF/F authors > deliberately marginalize themselves? > > > AJ > ----------------------------------------- > gaudit@global.co.za > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 03:47:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980724213304.006a6ab8@hemlock.newcastle.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Ms.Devilspin (jenn) wrote: > Thanks everyone for your help with the books! Ill try and get them. So far > Ive only found 3 available at my library at uni *sigh* Since I'm interested in cyberpunk, I tried to find them too. None of them are available at my library at university, I checked each one mentioned on the list. I don't expect much luck with other libraries in Oklahoma, either. Thanks God for interlibrary loan. Last time, I was able to borrow Mists of Avalon from a library in Arizona (two states away). Maybe they'll find Snow Crash for me somewhere in Virgin Islands... *sigh* *sigh* Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:17:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Joanna Russ and her anger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" . I just >read in the paper how the US Congress has voted to override President >Clinton's veto of an anti-abortion bill that would make it harder for >teenagers to have abortions. Bit by bit the victories that were won in the >1970s are being whittled away. And women continue to make $.72 to the male >dollar Had a fast question...was the teenager part of the bill attached to the Late-term abortion bill like a combined bill with different attachments on it or was this a separate bill? I thought the bill was specifically supposed to ban late term abortions only? And to keep this to topic grin...I just bought two Russ collections of essays, How To Suppress Women's Writing and To Write Like A Woman...which would you recommend to read first to get a good introduction to her work? Thanks, Jo Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:48:47 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Joanna Russ and her anger In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980725091701.006b32d8@Silent-Running.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > > And to keep this to topic grin...I just bought two Russ collections of > essays, How To Suppress Women's Writing and To Write Like A Woman...which > would you recommend to read first to get a good introduction to her work? "How to Suppress Women's Writing" is not a collection of essays: it is one sustained, hilarious and depressing arguement. haven't yet read "To Write Like a Woman". But for the best introduction to her work, read _The Female Man_! One of the ten great science fiction books of all time, maybe? Certainly one of MY ten favourite. Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:51:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Was perusing this post below and some thoughts came to immediate mind last time I spent my time in a bookstore looking for a good read... Now since venturing into this type of literature, that being Science Fiction and Fantasy in general at first, I noticed that what drew me were the classics such as Tolkien, because he recreated his interpretation of a mythological world, and I savored the Hobbit bit by bit, had never read something this original before and this was about 2 years ago...when I head directly to search for the books up for nomination to this discussion list, I printed up the list of nominees, marked off the ones that interested me and took it to Waldenbooks, my nearest bookstore. Only one I could find on the shelf was the second book by Sharon Shinn Jovah's Angel...after I left that store I walked to a used bookstore who normally only does business over the net but is open a few hours during the week for the summertime...the same store was where I found my favorite fantasy novel, Strands of Starlight by Gael Baudino. I feel fortunate to have found this discussion list, because out of the books nominated I believe I only recognized a couple of the authors...What has helped me immensely enrich my reading pleasure is the Feminist Scifi website with the bibliographies, there I find I have read some really excellent finds before I even knew what Feminist Science Fiction was. Lately when I stare at the shelf at Waldenbooks...entire shelf for Piers Anthony whom I have not read, I pick up what looks interesting on the backcover and look at a few pages, but nothing snags me in his work so far, whereas I was reading Baudino's work waiting in line to pay for the book...it is when something clicks of interest and urges me to read onward, that is priceless pleasure... Jobe At 08:45 AM 7/25/98 +0200, you wrote: >On 25 Jul 98, at 0:08, Lilith wrote: > >> I was not out to dis "light entertainment"; I just wanted to say that just >> because some people might not want to make an effort to read something >> they might find difficult, such as the writings of Joanna Russ, was no >> reason to condemn the work itself. > >It is though enough to condemn it as a "commercially viable" work. >At one time publishers would cross-subsidize the publication of >"worthy" works using the profits from mass-selling novels, but it >didn't make business sense then and it's not gotten any better. > >> And as a fact what I have read of Ms. Russ's was not difficult at >> all to grasp > >For you and I perhaps, but even her most fervent supporters > wouldn't call her "light" reading. >People buy books that are easy to read, interesting and _just_ >meaty enough to offer a slight challenge. Any visit to a reasonably >sized book store shows this. > >> and yes I do work all day and come home tired at night. I like >> "light entertainment" too -- but if it is thoroughly empty of >> substance I find that it just enervates me more, but then perhaps I >> am strange. > >I'm going to stick my neck out because I don't know Amereican >bookstores well. But looking at the SF/F shelves, one doesn't see >an overwhelming proportion of light, "empty" books. Many of them >provide some challenge, not enough but some, and they entertain. >Often they're long - the average must be what, 300-350 pages? - >more than an evening's read I would think. But they don't demand >constant attention, backtracking, following footnotes, little side >trips into digressions, Russ does. > >Russ is, I find, fatiguing and rewarding. Most people, and I don't >blame them, would, I believe, find the reward too small for the >faigue involved. > > >AJ >----------------------------------------- >gaudit@global.co.za > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:16:22 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: sales of feminist SF books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 4:50:22 AM, Janice wrote: << "Which came first, the product or the demand?" (My own version of a cliche question.) Perhaps we will never know. It's like nature or nurture, in a way. But one thing that advertisers HAVE figured out over the years is that the greater the exposure to and knowledge of a product, the more likely someone is to buy it. Surely you don't disagree that women buy a lot of books. I don't see anything inherent in science fiction that prevents women from buying it; it's just gotten a bad rep over the years because of all those white male authors writing for their own little niche of white male adolescents. But if women come to understand that science fiction is now available that makes sense to them, they may begin to purchase more books in a genre that they have traditionally viewed as uninteresting and/or outright hostile to them.>> This sounds right to me. I've been a life-long SFF reader, and have been thrilled over the years as more and more strong women characters (and those who are strong but not the heroines) have appeared, and more and more women writers in the genre. I've introduced women friends to the genre to their enthusiasm, and they pass that along as well... this probably is not showing up in the publishers' market research, yet -- but it will. As someone else mentioned, I register my vote by buying books by women. I'll bet others do, too. Not fast enough, perhaps, but I think there is a trend. best wishes phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:25:45 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 7:20:07 AM, AJ wrote: <> Oh, jeez!!! Reminds me of a message board I saw yesterday on the 'net: a young man wrote: "Help! I need to write a synopsis of Euripides' Trojan War, but I don't want to read it. One paragraph would be fine." Fasten your seatbelts! Alternately, your friend is in a great position to cause all kinds of excitement... just think of the authors she could praise and push! phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:27:38 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 7:21:23 AM, AJ wrote: <> Longer than that these days, and getting longer... phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:49:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 8:35:46 AM, Marina wrote: <> That's always been true in performing arts... women are mothers, virgins or whores. (I teach History of Theatre) Changing, but slowly. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:13:05 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980725095153.006ae930@Silent-Running.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 2:51, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > Lately when I stare at the shelf at Waldenbooks...entire shelf for Piers > Anthony whom I have not read, I pick up what looks interesting on the > backcover and look at a few pages, but nothing snags me in his work so > far, whereas I was reading Baudino's work waiting in line to pay for the > book...it is when something clicks of interest and urges me to read > onward, that is priceless pleasure... Today though I found it very difficult to get a good selection of Cherryh books simply because in South Africa, they're highly popular and are snapped up as soon as they're put on the bookstore shelves. So at least there's one feminist author in demand - even if it is in the Third World. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:12:45 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Joanna Russ and her anger In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980725012153.00724364@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 1:21, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > Perhaps we should resort to specifics here... how exactly does her rage > color, for example, *And Chaos Died*? Or her short story "Souls"? How much > Russ have you read? The context of the discussion, the comments of myself and others and comparisons I have made, make it amply clear that I was referring to "What Are We Fighting For? : Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism". If you regard that book as an easy read, I congratulate you. However, I've always believed that the first ad hominem comment is a good time to close a debate. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:13:21 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 3:34, Marina wrote: > I wonder whether "angry at men" books could be more popular if they were > more "fun", or it's just "misogynistic" stuff is more likely to be > considered entertaining? This is one of the points I've been trying to make. A "angry at men" book that's well written and adventurous (with a strong female lead) would, I think, sell well. Most men, I think, are prepared to laugh at their own foibles; what I think men are not prepared to do is to pay money to be sneered at or patronized simply for being a man - you and I would be the same. > This is not a rethorical question. I'm always wondering why Thelma and > Louise is often considered a "male-bashing" movie.... But I thought that "Thelma..." was quite popular with men; certainly most men I know who saw the film, liked it. It was amusing, never took itself too seriously, didn't preach and was exciting. What's not to like? The only people I know that didn't like "Thelma and Louise" were women who felt that the movie deliberate made the title pair to be evil male bashers in order to degrade the image of women. > while all the numerous presentations of women as evil, stupid, > selfish, treacherous, manipulative, or anything else, is never > called "female-bashing". I think, overall, there must be far more films with men as evil monsters, crooks, rapists etc than there are derogatory films about women (check the last Oscar nominees for example). We remember "Fatal Attraction" etc because it was one of a limited number, but in the same year at least 10 times as many films about evil men must have been made. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:33:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Promised myself I wouldn't comment, but...! You have no idea unless you've been through a recent natural disaster how quickly your part of the world can get plunged right back down to basics, and what effect this can have. During last January's Northeastern U.S. ice storm, sex roles I had thought were history came back with a vengeance. The men fixed the power lines, the women fixed the meals, and that's how it was. I saw not one female line worker at the picnic yesterday that thanked all those who came in from other states and provinces to help us when we were, believe me, damned desperate. It's wonderful that we have made strides in government and in the professions, even in business; but as long as virtually all line workers, plumbers, and oil burner technicians are male, it's not going to take much to knock us right back to dependence of one gender on the other for survival. I deplore this situation, but where I live it's still reality...so please don't tell me about "a world long vanished." It's changing slowly (I do see women on Dept. of Transportation bridge crews now), but the kind of dependency I just described has a cultural effect and I'm far more aware of it now than I was last year at this time. Nina Oiser ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:37:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <35B9DEAA.E513E835@mint.net> from "Nina M. Osier" at Jul 25, 98 09:33:30 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sic scribit Nina M. Osier: > > Promised myself I wouldn't comment, but...! You have no idea unless you've > been through a recent natural disaster how quickly your part of the world can > get plunged right back down to basics, and what effect this can have. During > last January's Northeastern U.S. ice storm, sex roles I had thought were > history came back with a vengeance. The men fixed the power lines, the women > fixed the meals, and that's how it was. I saw not one female line worker at > the picnic yesterday that thanked all those who came in from other states and > provinces to help us when we were, believe me, damned desperate. > "Women have no rights, Don, except what men allow us. Men are more aggressive and powerful, and they run the world. When the next real crisis upsets them, our so-called rights will vanish like--like that smoke. We'll be back where we always were: property. And whatever has gone wrong will be blamed on our freedom, like the fall of Rome was. You'll see." Ruth Parsons in Alice Sheldon/James Tiptree's "The Women Men Don't See" The quote isn't an exact fit to the situation described in Nina's quote, but it's close enough for discomfort a quarter of a century after Sheldon wrote it. One of the difficulties in my Women Writers of SF class this summer has been walking that fine line between acknowledging the progress women have made since the Second Wave and recognizing that most of the old patriarchal structures and systems are still in place. I've had to spend a lot of time pushing the students beyond "This story is important in its historical context, but less relevant today b/c we've addressed many of these issues" (of course, the students making this comment vary from class to class and issue to issue, depending on their own backgrounds and experiences). Teaching note ob Joanna Russ: the little blue and pink gender guidebooks that Joanna and the party's host use in *Female Man* are a great way to work around this perceived historical gap. I suggested that we can see their real world equivalents in magazines (women's and men's) and books like *Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus*. One of the students came up with an even better comparison: that recent embarassment known as *The Rules.* Regarding Russ's difficulties: To some degree, they're relative. My students found *Frankenstein* just as difficult to read, if not more difficult, than *Female Man* b/c of Mary Shelley's "bad writing style"--which I then had to historicize and point out that she's a good writer using a very different style from our own. *Female Man*'s difficulties mostly arise from Russ's determination to (a) confuse identity and deconstruct traditional characterization and (b) deprivilege traditional narrative structures and linearity. That makes for tough reading (I myself still can't figure out who's narrating in large chunks of the book, even after three readings--although I suspect that's the point), but I found that Russ's sense of humor gave the students something to hang onto as they worked their way through the text. Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Garden shrugged. "I see no reason to give the Heroes priority. The world is a One Twist Ring: we affect the Mist, the Mist affects the real world. Stories from one get told in the other." - Sean Stewart, _Clouds End_ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:21:20 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: bits and pieces / mostly state of the market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anthea commented: >Hacks sell. Look at Stephen King or Dean Koontz who churn out >essentially the same book year after year and always get >obscenely large advances. and >I can't agree. There's a big difference between a special interest >group like this list and the general SF reading public. The difficulty >Elgin had in getting "Earthsong" published shows that the market >for her fiction was dubious in 1992/3. Why should her work do >better now than it did when it was at least a bit fresher? Once again this has elements of a circular arguement and self-fufilling prophecy behind it. One must wonder what Elgin's numberw might be like with the type of marketing campaign and publisher support behind her that these gentlemen enjoy. BTW, I usually enjoy both King and Koontz's works, and found the newest King, BAG OF BONES to be particularly well done and not repetitious except in addressing the theme of the writing process and where ideas come from, which is a constant in his works. >> Thinking like this is why local book sellers are losing business to >> amazon.com? >AJ: >Doesn't that prove my point? Check AZMN on Nasdaq but I don't >think they've made a profit yet! In fact I don't see how they're ever >going to make a profit - the way they do business. The profit on book selling is very low. Amazon.com so far has been in the business of making a market presence for themselves, something at which they have succeeded at the cost of making a profit on the merchandise they sell. i don't know if this approach will be successful in the long run, but it has certainly been successful in the short term in terms of making them the dominant bookselling presence on the internet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ >From: Sharon Anderson asked: > Somebody said: >Cyberpunk short story collections with some women authors: Jack Dann and >Garner Dozois: Hackers (incl. Cadigan and Dorsey); Sterling: Mirrorshades > >Does this mean what I think it says? Jack Dann and Garner Dozois are women >authors? ??? Sharon: I think what we are dealing wotht here is a confusion over terminology. Dann and Dozois are editors (both male) whose anthologies (rather than short story collections, which generally refer to the collected works of one author) include contributions by female authors like Pat Cadigan, etc. Hope this helps. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ME Hunter : > >..it is my impression (buttressed by various comments in the literature) >that the overwhelming majority of sf books are bought by male reader ages >12-17. From what I understand, the demographic has changed somewhat and >there are more women and adults reading sf, but the biggest audience is >teenaged boys. So it's hardly surprising that a lot of books are written >that appeal to that audience. I think Piers Anthony definitely falls into >this category. FWIW, that was not my experience when I was a bookseller in a general chain bookstore for 7 years, and it certainly is not my experience now at Mysterious Galaxy. The bulk of SF buyers I see are adults (30+) of both genders. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:46:40 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market >But they don't demand constant attention, backtracking, following footnotes, >little side trips into digressions, Russ does. Is this the same Joanna Russ whose books I have read for many years? Novels, articles, short stories? The above does not seem to me to be a very accurate characterisation of these (have you, for example, read the admirably lucid and witty 'Magic Mommas, Trembling Sisters, Puritans and Perverts'?) >The context of the discussion, the comments of myself and others >and comparisons I have made, make it amply clear that I was >referring to "What Are We Fighting For? : Sex, Race, Class, and >he Future of Feminism". I would incline to disagree. When saying 'Russ this or that' a large number of postings down the line from any original comment (and in the context of certain kinds of feminist writing), it sounds (even if not intentionally) to be a generalised attack on an 'old-style' feminist writer and all her works. Incidentally, the discussion on Elgin seems to have circled around and around the 'Native Tongue' trilogy: has anyone else read her lighter (but still feminist-slanted) Coyote Jones books (someone did just mention _At the 7th Level_ I recall) or the Ozark trilogy? I have them all myself but was commissioned to seek out copies of odd items missing from her own collection by a friend of mine last time I went to N America. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:59:24 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 12:22:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: << I don't need lessons on what terrible courage is... none of us who live and work in the Third World do. >> Then don't assume you are the only one who knows this. I commend your work, but if there is to be change there must also be anger, and writing, and women willing to say, "No more!" How you can work where you do, and suggest militant feminism is not fashionable beats me. I would think you would be the most militant feminist of us all. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:13:13 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 5:11:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: << I think, overall, there must be far more films with men as evil monsters, crooks, rapists etc than there are derogatory films about women (c >> Please. This would be an argument if and only if ALL persons were represented as monsters and crooks. But only men are represented as heroes, good guys, godlike, protectors, and, frankly, gods. The day there is an equal proportion of women who are in the right, successful, saving, godlike and...gods...then we can sit back and say the fight is over. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:07:30 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 3:10:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Jobe@SILENT- RUNNING.COM writes: << Feminist Scifi website with the bibliographies, there I find I have read some really excellent finds before I even knew what Feminist Science Fiction was. >> Somehow I MISSED this!!! Could someone please tell me where this is? I haven't had so much fun reading in ages. Have to get the Russ books... Thanks in advance, Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:04:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Think about this: about half of all Hollywood movies (or so it seems) have the leading female character being a prostitute. Was anyone bothered by the "Raider's of the Lost Ark" movie (It was the last one, not sure of its name) that portrayed Kali so badly? I mean, suppose there was a movie that showed christians enslaving people, with a huge statue of Christ that spewed hypnotic blood. Wouldn't there be an outcry? WHy is it OK no not only kick us around, but also anything that looks like a female deity??? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:43:53 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthea: > > Really? A world long gone? Say, are you sure you're from our planet? > > No, not really! I live and work in the "Third World" which is a billion > miles from the planet you live on. > I would like to point out that yes, I indeed live in the Evil USA. However, I don't come from a background of privilege, and believe it or not I work for a living. Also, I live in Miami, Florida, where a lot of cultures form many different parts of the world mingle. And I know where South Africa is; it's hardly "a million miles" from "my planet." My remark was meant as a joking reference to your assertion that Russ foments "against a world long-gone," which I took to mean that the oppression she experienced in her life _as a woman_ no longer existed. I am afraid that it does, even in the Great Satan America, where believe it or not many women live in close to the same third-world conditions you describe in a later post. And even rich girls starve themselves to death for some pathological ideal of beauty and desirability. Misery is realtive, after all. I personally have been lucky enough to have escaped most of the female oppression problems that many other women in this country (the US) and others still suffer: I was never told that my purpose in life was to get married, bear children, and be a good submissive wife; I have never had my intelligence or skills questioned on the basis of my sex (not by anyone whose opinion mattered to me anyway); I don't have much of a body-image problem (none of that obsessive dieting for me!), and so forth. Of course it helps that I am a bookish, sedentary person who doesn't go out for sports or construction work or pursuits that were until recently seen as mostly "male" pursuits. That does not mean that I am unaware of the way things are in the world for many other women, including close friends. But it seems that while I thought you were talking about Russ's feminism, I was mistaken: > It's not my intention to start arguing politics or economics but > much of east and central Africa are as bad as they are because of > cultural imperialism based on political and economic policies like > those Russ advocates. Russ has many good points, but she clings > to the outdated shibboleths of a socialism which have wreaked > havoc in this part of the world. > It certainly isn't my intention either to argue politics or economics, since I have absolutely no expertise in those two subjects. However, I did think that the cultural imperialism that has caused so many problems in Africa was brought about by good, old-fashioned European capitalists, and that the problems were then exacerbated by European socialists and communists. I would say rather that it is the policies that are based on cultural imperialism, not the other way around as you said above. And all throughout her book Russ asserts that it is time for white, European women to stop trying to run the feminist movement and to, as it were, "hand over the reins" to the women of the third world. I don't particularly agree with her espousal of socialism either, since all I can see are it's failures, or at best, half-successes; but as I said I don't know enough about the subject to say what would be better. I rather doubt rampant, laissez-faire capitalism is the answer either. Speaking of capitalism, about people who, basically, want easy stuff to read: > But they are the ones who have to buy hers' and similar works to > make them commercial viable > I don't think that's going to happen. As long as a majority of people (in America anyway -- I don't know about elsewhere) believe that fun is anything that does _not_ make you use your brain in any way, very few collections of essays -- or non-fiction works in general -- are going to make it to the bestseller list unless they have a provocative or fashionalble subject (like angels or O.J. Simpson, to name a couple of past fads) or have "success" in the title. (As in "How to Be A...") But I actually think that the Russ book will do quite well, considering the increasing anti-woman atmosphere in certain parts of _my_ country (for example: the Baptists and their "women should submit" dictum, the continuing chipping-away at the right to abortion, Hollywood's fixation on women as ho's or buxom, oversexed teens, etc.). Give it a chance -- it's only been out a few months. As for Elgin -- once I picked up one of her "Native Tongue", and I am afraid I put it down after I flipped through it. Yes, it was the treatment of men that turned me off - not that I don't believe men with such mindsets don't exist, just that I was tired of reading and hearing about them and seeing them on TV. Now I am thinking of hunting her books down -- fortunately I have several large, well-stocked bookstores in my city as well as many used bookstores, and there is always Amazon.com. About the comments on "A Brief History of Time"; it's fine that your friend does this review service for people who don't want to read the books themselves, and I will admit that I enjoy dissing books and movies solely on the basis of reviews...but I certainly don't hold myself or any other reviewer as sole judge of a work, even if that review is in an "august" periodical. And I persist in not caring about the buying and reading habits of "pseudo-intellectuals" _or_ the "hoi-polloi." (Fortunately, I am not in publishing.) Isn't saying "but we have to cater to these sorts of people, they are the ones who drive the market!" sort of like saying "but we _have_ to put men first; they run the world!" Lilith -- I dare you -- to be real; To touch -- to touch the flickering flame.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:11:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <199807251537.LAA85392@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Robert Barrett wro> Sic scribit Nina M. Osier: > "Women have no rights, Don, except what men allow us. Men are more > aggressive and powerful, and they run the world. When the next real > crisis upsets them, our so-called rights will vanish like--like that > smoke. We'll be back where we always were: property. And whatever has > gone wrong will be blamed on our freedom, like the fall of Rome was. > You'll see." Amen. It's exactly how it happened in Tajikistan after the fall of the USSR. The last couple years at home even I started to believe that "women are not people, they are just women". Because there is no way one could be independent when she's seen and treated as a walking piece of free property that every man has a right on, unless she's protected by another man. And if one cannot exist by herself, how can she be an individual? Took me many months in US before my head started turning back around. And I had had "feminist" views since very early age. Knowing that anything can be done to you and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it (and the fact that no one sees anything wrong with that) can convince you in your "inferiority" pretty damn fast. And when things in a society go bad, rights of women is the first thing that goes up in smoke. Always. So, hate to say that, but don't fool yourself that any of "patriarchial" stuff is gone for good. On certain conditions, the achievements of the last 200 years can evaporate so fast, it will be hard to believe that they ever existed. Don't want to sound too pessimistic, but watching a "fall of Rome" type of thing in person can teach you a lot about how fragile the stuff called "civilization" is. It all goes with the wind in a brink of a moment, and you just stand there and wonder how all that "enlightened" stuff could ever make sense to anyone... Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:23:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: bits and pieces / mostly state of the market In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > > >> Thinking like this is why local book sellers are losing business to > >> amazon.com? > >AJ: > >Doesn't that prove my point? Check AZMN on Nasdaq but I don't > >think they've made a profit yet! In fact I don't see how they're ever > >going to make a profit - the way they do business. This is not very related -- but they do. I've got a few (imaginary) shares of Amazon in my "keep dreaming" portfolio on the AOL account. They've been rising in value steadily last time I checked. I already made about 400 imaginary dollars on them. Makes me wonder if I could be a good investor if I did not have to use a credit card to buy groceries. In other words, Amazon books are doing good lately and I think they are going to do even better in future. Books are not such a bad business, after all. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:11:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <5acb8b2d.35ba1cfd@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > In a message dated 7/25/98 12:22:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: > > << I don't need lessons on what terrible courage is... none of us who > live and work in the Third World do. > > Then don't assume you are the only one who knows this. I commend your work, > but if there is to be change there must also be anger, and writing, and women > willing to say, "No more!" How you can work where you do, and suggest > militant feminism is not fashionable beats me. I would think you would be the > most militant feminist of us all. > Madrone > The bad part about militant feminism is that it can get you in a very, very big trouble. Two years ago, I got kicked out of school for having joked_eight months earlier_ about buying a gun to protect myself from people who were sexually harassing me at work, with the school refusing to investigate my complaints. Eight months after I said that, with the school dismissing my harrassment case once again, I tried to find a lawyer to file a suit against the university. When hearing about the lawsuit, the school administration dug out that 8-month old joke of mine and kicked me out of school the next day. And called the Immigration asking them to deport me, as soon as possible. The only reason I'm still here is that the local news found out about it and made it public, so the school had to back off. My co-workers at the school cafeteria who were openly talking about gang-raping me (the ones I tried to complain about) never got even written up. Right now, I'm trying to get an asylum in the United States because of the crazy situation in my home country. Which means that if they managed to send me home two years ago, I would have been dead by now. I do not like that prospect too much. So whatever I feel about militant feminism, I'm not going even to mention getting on with it until I have a US citizenship and lots of money for a good lawyer. Maybe then I could move to Texas, buy me a shotgun, and kick jerks in the face to counter-condition their jerky behaivior. But until that happens, being a militant feminist -- of any kind -- can be way too costly. Somehow, most people freak out about (even potentially) agressive women way too much. As my psychology professor once said at a lecture on dangerous substances: "The only bad part about marijuana is that it's illegal. It's not addictive like tobacco, it won't mess up your brain as much as alcohol does, but it can put you in jail, which is why it's dangerous." I don't have any moral objections to militant feminism, but I'm afraid it's not of much use. They'll just get really scared and try to destroy your life. And the fact that future school politicians (as in my case) will use your name in their election campaigns ("If I'm elected, such unjustice as with that poor girl won't happen again") will be of very little comfort. At least, that's what I think. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 18:39:41 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: bits and pieces / mostly state of the market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 9:24:27 PM, Marina wrote: << Amazon books are doing good lately and I think they are going to do even better in future. Books are not such a bad business, after all.>> But, has anyone else noted the aggressive marketing of B&N on the 'net. Should be interesting for those who follow such warfare. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <5b88efd3.35ba203a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > In a message dated 7/25/98 5:11:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > gaudit@GLOBAL.CO.ZA writes: > > << I think, overall, there must be far more films with men as evil > monsters, crooks, rapists etc than there are derogatory films about > women (c >> The problem is that the way women portrayed in most movies, if they were men, it _would_ be considered derogatory. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:55:42 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, July 24, Anthea wrote > The "masculine" > books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment > value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, > write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing. > Many feminist authors, on the other hand, appear to write for a > selected readership with strongly exclusive views (I find all Russ' > non-fiction and most fiction work to be like this). They often > "propagandize" more than they entertain (as the NT series amply > demonstrates). > > Can we blame the "system" for bias if feminist SF/F authors > deliberately marginalize themselves? Um, am I the only one it's occurred to that masculine books that seem (to Anthea) to be inclusive are in fact the propaganda of the status quo? Propaganda comes in many forms, not all of them from the pulpit. NOT writing about "exclusive" feminist views involves EXCLUSION as well as inclusion. These books entertain those who don't seriously contemplate oppression of women (in ALL parts of the world) enough for it to bother them that the books are "inclusive" of the masculinist party line. Reading such books without resisting the values underlying them helps their authors keep you in the conformist patriachal flock. Repeating a lie enough times without being openly challenged often makes the lie into the truth for the entertained, brain-on-cruise-control public. -Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:23:03 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/98 10:47:19 PM, Marina wrote: <> That begs the question. men WOULDN'T behave the way women are portrayed. They wouldn't be in the same circumstances... This is a long-time question for me, as a teacher of theatre history.. Strangely enough, in that much-maligned genre (in IMO wrongfully) melodrama -- women, at least towards the end of the 19th century, did come into some parity. I'll think on it and write something more coherent. I'm just putting up a marker that says: it ain't that simple. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:27:24 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit saw this on a church bulletin board as I drove through beautiful Sudbury, Massachusetts today. Without my glasses, I couldn't read the fine print that assigned a name to it. But... It is less dangerous to answer a question than to question an answer. selah. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:37:57 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Bits & Pieces In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:11 PM 7/25/98 -0500, Marina wrote: > >Amen. It's exactly how it happened in Tajikistan after the fall of the >USSR. The last couple years at home even I started to believe that >"women are not people, they are just women". Because there is no way >one could be independent when she's seen and treated as a walking piece >of free property that every man has a right on, unless she's protected by >another man. >Knowing that anything can be done to you and there is absolutely nothing >you can do about it (and the fact that no one sees anything wrong with >that) can convince you in your "inferiority" pretty damn fast. And when >things in a society go bad, rights of women is the first thing that goes >up in smoke. Always. So, hate to say that, but don't fool yourself that >any of "patriarchial" stuff is gone for good. On certain conditions, the >achievements of the last 200 years can evaporate so fast, it will be hard to >believe that they ever existed. Marina - you are very right. Also, women's rights and freedoms have only been given to women when it has been in patriarchy's interest to do so. Economic boom-times of the 60's and 70's required Western capitalist economies to mobilise huge work-forces - and included women in the West's participation - because extra bodies were needed in the workforces. This was cheered as some great advance for women, but in reality was just a means to the ends of economic expansion. Now that the economic booms of 20-30 years ago are winding down - Western economies are downsizing, and the greatest number of sacked workers are the women. Currently, mainland China is attempting to rearrange its economy into a western free-market economy. Older women are being sacked en-masse - and since they have nothing approaching even lip-service to sexual discrimination laws, advertisements for women workers include such statements "must be under 35, physically attractive" etc. So much for Mao's 'Women Hold Up Half the Sky'. After the 1917 revolution in Russia - the adult male population had been decimated in the previous years of war and revolution, and Russia needed to industrialise rapidly. It was a necessity to mobilise the women in huge numbers to work in the new USSR. On the grounds of "female emancipation" women had access to childcare and abortion services. Indeed, many factories also had 'abortion-factories' attached to the workplace for convenience. It was almost mandatory for pregnant women to have abortions..in order for them to keep working long shifts and hours at peak efficiency... a generation later when the boys had grown up, this changed somewhat - so "choices" for women can very easily be manipulated back-and-forth at patriarchy's convenience. Today, apart from the USA (for some reason) in Western countries, abortion laws do not seem to be being attacked. Indeed, its the opposite in many countries. In Australia for example, women on welfare are encouraged to seek abortion, and laws have recently changed to disallow pregnant teenagers from gaining any welfare support at all. For some Western economies it is cheaper to provide free, safe abortions than to provide years of welfare support for children. In addition, government subsidies for child-care centres have been dropped and thousands of working mothers have had to give up their jobs, or find unsatisfactory illegal, or 'back-yard' childcare arrangements to keep their jobs. And lastly, little spoken about in the media or on the news in Australia at all - was the changed laws concerning child maintenance support payments by non-custodial parents. Apparently men's groups lobbied the government to change the formula by which child-maintenance payments were calculated. In one week, thousands of women lost their child-support maintenance payments from their ex-husbands, many of the women did not even receive a formal notification of the drop in payments, and spent hours in their bank office asking what had happened - assuming that there had been some mistake in their bank account transactions. Women won't complain about these changes, because of fear. Fear that if they open their mouths and cry injustice, or worse still get angry and fight back - worse injustices will follow. Women will do what they have always done - cope as best they can with whatever they do have. They will make alliances with men, individually or collectively, for their own safety and that of their children. One minute, or for a decade or two or even three, women are *needed* to 'hold up half the sky' - but when women aren't needed, everyone knows the Sky will not fall if women (and their children without a father's supervision and support) are shoved aside. > >Don't want to sound too pessimistic, but watching a "fall of Rome" type >of thing in person can teach you a lot about how fragile the stuff >called "civilization" is. It all goes with the wind in a brink of a >moment, and you just stand there and wonder how all that "enlightened" stuff >could ever make sense to anyone... Yes, Marina - perhaps in the USA - these changes will be much slower to be perceived. When Rome and every other patriarchal civilisation or empire fell, they fell from the outer colonies, collapsing slowly into the empire centre over time. It is the outlying countries, nation-states, and cities etc, which always fall first. The USA being the biggest and strongest economy at this particular point in history, may last decades longer than other countries. Julieanne "A dying civilisation or even tribal culture, is always essentially a masculine one. A culture can survive with only one man - no culture can survive a shortage of women, even a patriarchal one". - Germaine Greer, _Sex and Destiny_ 1984. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:37:28 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Bits & Pieces >Today, apart from the USA (for some reason) in Western countries, abortion >laws do not seem to be being attacked. Indeed, its the opposite in many >countries [snip] For some Western economies it is cheaper to provide free, >safe abortions than to provide years of welfare support for children. This is all probably getting a bit off topic? But here in the UK, although the 1967 Abortion Act has survived thirty years in spite of coordinated campaigns to restrict its terms as a preliminary to getting rid of it, financial constraints within the National Health Service have meant that some local Health Authorities have been balancing their budget by not accepting certain kinds of operations as suitable for NHS provision--one of these was abortion under the 'social clause' of the '67 Act (the woman's general circumstances and how they affected the likely health and her and child, as opposed to specific health contra-indications to continuing pregnancy), which is in fact a short-term view about balancing the books for a particular year, not the long-term concern over 'social cost' of a child (not just welfare: education, health service provision etc). Also the 67 Act, once the most liberal in Europe, is now well behind that of several European countries which permit abortion on request up to 12 weeks (whereas in UK needs 2 doctors signatures). Also, there was some talk earlier this year of stopping the free provision of contraception under the NHS, something which seems to have gone quiet. I am not sure that 'economic rationalism' necessarily, at the level of high policy, does much to dictate decisions around reproductive issues (it was after all in the boom time of the 50s and 60s that birth control, for example, became a respectable subject and granted legitimacy, after decades of struggle to get the topic even mentioned) . At the local level of implementation, perhaps. To wrench this topic back into the area of FSSF, various works have explored future societies in which similar discongruities exist: in particular (from a feminist perspective, as opposed to e.g Kornbluth's 'Marching Morons') several of Sheri Tepper's works deal with situations of gross over-population and economic suffering in societies in which the idea of reproductive control is banned. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:56:20 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: women's hard-won rights -- off topic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina wrote: >And when >things in a society go bad, rights of women is the first thing that goes >up in smoke. Always. So, hate to say that, but don't fool yourself that >any of "patriarchial" stuff is gone for good. On certain conditions, the >achievements of the last 200 years can evaporate so fast, it will be hard to >believe that they ever existed. And in reply, Julieanne wrote: >Marina - you are very right. >Also, women's rights and freedoms have only been given to women when it has >been in patriarchy's interest to do so. This is a bit off-topic, but I think both of these statements are too simplistic. There are many levels of "going bad". Does the Great Depression count? I think many would say that it does. Yet women's suffrage, a right that had been fought for and won in 1919 in the United States (and which was NOT in the interests of the patriarchy), was not repealed. Obviously patriarchy has not been eradicated and the rights of women are shaky in many areas (and non-existent in some countries), but I don't think anyone ought to make blanket claims across cultures about what would happen given certain conditions. You'd too often be wrong. Julieanne again, re: changes in child support in Australia: >Women won't complain about these changes, because of fear. Fear that if >they open their mouths and cry injustice, or worse still get angry and >fight back - worse injustices will follow. Women will do what they have >always done - cope as best they can with whatever they do have. They will >make alliances with men, individually or collectively, for their own safety >and that of their children. This statement seems to ignore all the women who HAVE complained over the years about their treatment and squeezed concessions out of the establishment. (As in the aforementioned women's suffrage movement). Women have often risked short-term backlash in order to secure long-term gains (to the point of risking their lives) and they have, on occasion, succeeded. I think it's a big mistake to forget their accomplishments. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:54:51 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anny Middon Subject: Cosm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've enjoyed the comments I've read about Mists of Avalon. I meant to participate and bought the book, but a bad case of the summertime blues, which had me spending an inordinate amount of time in front of the air conditioner, whining about how hot it is, kept me from actually reading it. I did however get around to reading Gregory Benford's Cosm, which I checked out from my local library. Cosm features a physicist protagonist who is African-American and female. For some reason this character never rang true to me. I was always uneasily aware that this was a black female as conceived by a white male. And yet I could never quite identify what was wrong with the portrayal. So maybe it was just me and those aforementioned summertime blues. Have others on this list read Cosm? If so, what did you think of the protagonist? Did the portrayal ring true to you? If not, can you identify why not? I'd take another look at the book, but I returned it weeks ago. And this has been bugging me ever since. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:32:12 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: A couple of Points on Russ stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" First, let me say that I have savored every word of the last few posts. Russ has always made it quite clear that her feminism and her interest in speculative fiction BECAUSE of its feminist possibilities are inextricably bound up together. Second, let me remind those of you who haven't checked it out yet that there is a Russ website now, the C.R.O.N.E.S. site. Third. let me add a point which nobody has (yet) addressed. When Anthea says, popular books sell because But they don't demand constant attention, backtracking, following footnotes, little side trips into digressions, Russ does.>> This is a little like comparing kiwi fruit and watermelon. They are both green, right? Only, popular best sellers are NOT essays, but fiction, fast reads. And nowhere, in any of Joanna Russ' fiction, are there footnotes. Constant attention, yes. But didn't Mists of Avalon require constant attention? Did all of you absorb all those little side trips into digressions through your fingertips as you rapdly turned the pages while sitting in the john on your fifteen minute break from work? Backtracking, yes. But so does any book worth its salt. The "how did I MISS that?" phenomena is one of the great pleasures of reading. Russ can be enjoyed on many levels. I read the first half of "The Two of Them" aloud to two high school girls while on a car trip. They loved it. Never had anything like that in their experience. Now, obviously, they do not have the same knowledge about history, cultural perspectives, feminism, literary tradition, etc. that a 40-something post-graduate degree person has. But still, they loved it. Recently, I got together with my brother and sister, who I had not seen for many years. My brother is in a Ph.D. program. My sister only graduated from high school after taking a summer school course unwillingly. She managed to do it by the skin of her teeth, and by several people promising to personally ensure that she had a miserable life if she didn't do it. We were in Boston, staring at old buildings, and my brother made a comment wishing that he knew more about archetecture. "You mean," my sister demanded angrily, "you think that building would be more beautiful if you knew what stlye of architecture it was?" "Yes!" my brother and I shouted simultaneously. My sister didn't understand, didn't even want to understand. Now SHE would not enjoy Joanna Russ. Not even if someone read aloud to her. Last point. About "the world she wrote about being dead." Somebody on this list posted about not having experienced deprivation because they were white, and born in this country. I am white. I was born in this country. To working class parents, neither of whom had a high school education. I grew up in a city. Compared to much of the world, I was very, very priveleged, But I was indoctrinated, from the time I can remember, with platitudes of not being good enough, because I was not a boy. I was told that I shouldn't read so many books, or boys wouldn't like me, and I would never learn the important things for a girl, like cooking and cleaning. I didn't need to make such good grades in school, because I would be married before I finished high school, and probably have the first three of my children before I was twenty. The most important thing in my life was supposed to be learing how to hold on to the breadwinner, no matter what. On this same trip to Boston, I met my only niece, who I had not seen since she was learning how to manage a spoon. She is now 24. My sister gushed with pride, because she turned out so well, "for a girl." My brother and I tried to find out what she was interested in, what she wanted to do with her life. Sxcholastically, she got her mother's genes. (Her father was even more so.) So, that left the job track. What kind of things did she enjoy? She's put boxes on a shelf in department stores, cleaned up after people and changed sheets in a nursing home, etc. But what did she WANT to do? Well, it doesn't really matter much, since, as soon as she finds someone to marry, she can stop working. Excuse me? And just what was it that Joanna Russ said, which leads you to believe that the world she wrote about is dead? Sharon L. Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:06:45 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <35BA7E8E.60D4D302@cas.et.tudelft.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Jul 98, at 1:55, Sharon Clark wrote: > Um, am I the only one it's occurred to that masculine books that seem (to > Anthea) to be inclusive are in fact the propaganda of the status quo? > Propaganda comes in many forms, not all of them from the pulpit. NOT > writing about "exclusive" feminist views involves EXCLUSION as well as > inclusion. In answer to the question, no you're not. But I think I should clarify that. The adjective "masculine" was a shortened "DEFAULT/ MASCULINE" used by Robin Reid. Clearly this implies "advocating the status quo". Rather than seize on isolated words, let us look at the broader scope of my discussion. I think you - and others - missed the most important point. The concluding comment of mine you quoted (" Can we blame the "system" for bias if....?") was obviously rhetorical. I felt - but was clearly wrong - that it would be obvious that my comment was a demonstration of the urgent need for feminist authors to make their work more accessible. Why should this be necessary? Simple, women throughout the world must be the agents of their own liberation. Women must be conscientized and empowered to discover their own needs, the limits of oppression and, most of all, how to overcome male repression. The most oppressed women are largely those of the most limited education, or those who, for one reason or another, have little consciousness of repression. They thus need to be conscientized - at least partly - through literature that is both understandable and enjoyable. Clearly feminist SF/F is one of the very best genres for this purpose. I have pointed out, and quite a few people have agreed, that feminist literature (SF/F fiction and non-fiction) can be difficult to read and to understand. This means that either one believes that it has to be made more accessible to the ordinary woman OR - an elitist view - that only the educated or the leadership need access to it. As I have so very clearly demonstrated in my constant re-iteration of the difficulty ordinary people have in reading certain works, I reject elitism. Analogous to the way that liberational theologians such as Welch, Gutierrez, Segundo, Tutu and many others regard the poor and oppressed in general, I believe that the work of feminist theoreticians (as many feministSF writers are) is NOT to dictate to women. Women throughout the world must be allow to determine their own views and actions. Clearly theoreticians (especially those from in the so-called First World) must _identify_ with the oppressed, but... They must act ONLY as conscientizers and facilitators; they must be the servants NOT the leaders of the oppressed. Otherwise we simply exchange patriarchal oppression by elitist males for matriarchal oppression by Western elitist females. Perhaps I have made myself a little clearer? AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:45:13 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <5acb8b2d.35ba1cfd@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 13:59, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > How you can work where you do, and suggest militant feminism is > not fashionable beats me. Could it be that I know what the word "fashionable" means? In any case, this topic has now run its course. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:45:13 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <35B9DEAA.E513E835@mint.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 9:33, Nina M. Osier wrote: > It's wonderful that we have made strides in government and in the > professions, even in business; but as long as virtually all line workers, > plumbers, and oil burner technicians are male, it's not going to take much > to knock us right back to dependence of one gender on the other for > survival. I've got no idea what a line worker does, but if it's anything like plumbers, it's a hard physically difficult job - the kind I wouldn't wish on anyone. > I deplore this situation, but where I live it's still reality...so > please don't tell me about "a world long vanished." It's changing > slowly (I do see women on Dept. of Transportation bridge crews > now), but the kind of dependency I just described has a cultural > effect and I'm far more aware of it now than I was last year at > this time. On the other hand, have you thought there might be good, valid reasons for the gender discrepancy? This is not the place to argue the future of feminism. Besides being against the list protocol, it is a certain recipe for bickering. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:45:13 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <199807251537.LAA85392@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 11:37, Robert Barrett wrote: > *Female Man*'s difficulties mostly arise from Russ's determination > to (a) confuse identity and deconstruct traditional > characterization and (b) deprivilege traditional narrative > structures and linearity. That makes for tough reading (I myself > still can't figure out who's narrating in large chunks of the book, > even after three readings--although I suspect that's the point), > but I found that Russ's sense of humor gave the students something > to hang onto as they worked their way through the text. Reading your note makes me glad about two things, and sad about a third. The first is that I'm glad other people have also had problems fully understanding "The Female Man". The second is that I'm glad I've never had to translate anything quite so obscure as your first sentence. The third is that I regret that I'll never have the privilege of attending a class in which you discuss this topic. I would find your explanations illuminating. I did gather, though, that you support my position that the average SF/F buyer would probably have difficulty understanding some of Russ' work. For this I thank you. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:45:13 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 Jul 98, at 15:46, Lesley Hall wrote: > Is this the same Joanna Russ whose books I have read for many years? > Novels, articles, short stories? The above does not seem to me to be a > very accurate characterisation of these (have you, for example, read the > admirably lucid and witty 'Magic Mommas, Trembling Sisters, Puritans and > Perverts'?) Yes indeed (to both questions). I have never suggested that all Russ' works were obscure. Some, as you say, are limpidly clear. Others are less so, while still others are downright opaque; Robert Barrett's illuminating comments on "The Female Man" make me feel a lot better about my own problems with the text. My deep admiration and respect for Russ, her writing and her contribution to feminism makes any suggestion of "a generalised attack on an 'old-style' feminist writer and all her works" hurtful and untrue. Debate is what keeps a movement healthy and vital. Russ would be the first to agree with me. I think your comments reinforce my view that this topic has now run its course. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market In-Reply-To: <5793fb44.35ba84f9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 7/25/98 10:47:19 PM, Marina wrote: > > < men, it _would_ be considered derogatory. > >> > > That begs the question. men WOULDN'T behave the way women are portrayed. > They wouldn't be in the same circumstances... This is a long-time question for > me, as a teacher of theatre history.. Well, I think, it _is_ possible. Think about Thelma and Louise. Two of the three "bad guys" in the movie -- Thelma's husband and the crook played by Brad Pitt represented, IMHO, are the roles typically assigned to women. In first case, it's the stupid, "evil spouse" that does not "understand" or care about the hero. In second case (Brad Pitt), it's the "slut" that robs the hero after sex, taking away their last chance for escape. Women have been portrayed that way for ages. When the Thelma and Louise showed men doing that, it became a men-bashing film. As I said before, Hollywood movies with the main female character being a prostitute, are nominated for Oscar every year. Remember the last-year independent film "Star Maps", with a teenage guy working as a hooker? I've read a lot of good reviews of it in the East Coast-based press. Here in Oklahoma, they had one sneak preview of it, and it was never shown in local theaters again. Or heard of. Or discussed. "Full Monty": the one and only film about male strippers that became more or less famous. Many, _many_ men I've met did not like the movie (sometimes without even seeing it) because they found the idea of showing male strippers insulting. Should we count how many films about female strippers are out there? "Greedy" with Kirk Douglas: a movie about a millionaire who's torturing his relatives knowing that they have to please him in order to get any money after he dies. The guy turns out to be a lonely eccentric who "only wants to know who really loves him and not his money". In the same situation the other way around, when an old rich woman is manipulating her family using her money, she is _always_ shown as an inhuman, evil monster. "Rich bitch". Even if she's not old, and relatively good-looking, she's still evil, just because she's powerful. There are many more examples, unfortunately. This is what I was talking about. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:55:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Bits & Pieces In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980726113757.007a8e80@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Julieanne wrote: > Also, women's rights and freedoms have only been given to women when it has > been in patriarchy's interest to do so. I agree with you. However, I don't think that women's efforts to make it happen should be underestimated. After all, the best way to make people do something is to convince them that it's in their best interests. So that they better do it, or else... There is nothing really bad with this state of things. It only means that one should not wait till some circumstances will make people give you what you need, but fight for it, creating those circumstances. The same as social changes protecting the workers were developed in Western countries largely in fear of revolution. Of course, the coprorations did it to protect themselves, not of their inner kindness. But so what? The changes are still there. It's like dealing with beaurocreacy: all you have to do is to make the person to realize that giving you what you want is the best way to make you go away. > For some Western > economies it is cheaper to provide free, safe abortions than to provide > years of welfare support for children. I think it's not such a bad idea. Chidren should be wanted, and welfare support by itself is not going to mend the destroyed lives of both unwanted chidren and their parents. In my opinion, it takes a lot more than money to be a successful parent. Of course, those who end up having the child they were not ready for should be financially supported by the state. But the less often this situation happens, the better. I agree with what you are saying about the unjustices towards women. However, I think, important part of changing this situation is getting over the fear of "worse unjustices" if they speak up. No one is going to protect women except women themselves. Besides, when people are silent about their problems, they are usually perceived as content with what they have. I think, there is not as much need of making alliances with men as to ask them for giving us what we want. And not backing off until it's done. Concerning the USA, I really hope it will not go the way of the Soviet Union where I grew up did. I have no desire to watch a fall of an empire once again. Did not like it the first time. Thanks for your post. Marina > In addition, government subsidies for child-care centres have been dropped > and thousands of working mothers have had to give up their jobs, or find > unsatisfactory illegal, or 'back-yard' childcare arrangements to keep their > jobs. > > And lastly, little spoken about in the media or on the news in Australia at > all - was the changed laws concerning child maintenance support payments by > non-custodial parents. Apparently men's groups lobbied the government to > change the formula by which child-maintenance payments were calculated. In > one week, thousands of women lost their child-support maintenance payments > from their ex-husbands, many of the women did not even receive a formal > notification of the drop in payments, and spent hours in their bank office > asking what had happened - assuming that there had been some mistake in > their bank account transactions. > > Women won't complain about these changes, because of fear. Fear that if > they open their mouths and cry injustice, or worse still get angry and > fight back - worse injustices will follow. > always done - cope as best they can with whatever they do have. They will > make alliances with men, individually or collectively, for their own safety > and that of their children. > > One minute, or for a decade or two or even three, women are *needed* to > 'hold up half the sky' - but when women aren't needed, everyone knows the > Sky will not fall if women (and their children without a father's > supervision and support) are shoved aside. > > > > >Don't want to sound too pessimistic, but watching a "fall of Rome" type > >of thing in person can teach you a lot about how fragile the stuff > >called "civilization" is. It all goes with the wind in a brink of a > >moment, and you just stand there and wonder how all that "enlightened" stuff > >could ever make sense to anyone... > > Yes, Marina - perhaps in the USA - these changes will be much slower to be > perceived. When Rome and every other patriarchal civilisation or empire > fell, they fell from the outer colonies, collapsing slowly into the empire > centre over time. It is the outlying countries, nation-states, and cities > etc, which always fall first. The USA being the biggest and strongest > economy at this particular point in history, may last decades longer than > other countries. > > > Julieanne > > > "A dying civilisation or even tribal culture, is always essentially a > masculine one. A culture can survive with only one man - no culture can > survive a shortage of women, even a patriarchal one". > - Germaine Greer, _Sex and Destiny_ 1984. > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:48:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: from "Anthea" at Jul 25, 98 11:45:13 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sic scribit Anthea: > > On 25 Jul 98, at 11:37, Robert Barrett wrote: > > > *Female Man*'s difficulties mostly arise from Russ's determination > > to (a) confuse identity and deconstruct traditional > > characterization and (b) deprivilege traditional narrative > > structures and linearity. That makes for tough reading (I myself > > still can't figure out who's narrating in large chunks of the book, > > even after three readings--although I suspect that's the point), > > but I found that Russ's sense of humor gave the students something > > to hang onto as they worked their way through the text. > > The second is that I'm glad I've never had to translate anything > quite so obscure as your first sentence. Heh. Let me expand on the point: "confuse identity," "deconstruct traditional characterization" - I use these phrases as a shorthand for the ways in which Russ's novel refuses to give us characters of the sort we see in most novels, SF or mainstream. Joanna, Jeannine, Janet, and Jael (along with Laura Rose Wilding) are not presented to us as unified selves interacting with a unified environment. Instead we get stream-of-consciousness techniques, blurring of boundaries (who's narrating whom?), conflicting information, and the sort. Jael's speeches about genotypes suggests that the four women are aspects of some absent unitary self, but they don't cohere that easily. We're quite a ways from David Copperfield or Lije Bayley or Heinlein's Manny or a Henry James character in *Female Man*; I suspect Russ sees unitary ideas of self and character as being in league with patriarchal practices and ideologies, esp. since she's interested in exploring the double consciousness women are forced to maintain in a male-dominated society. "deprivilege traditional narrative structures and linearity" - Just as Russ has it in for traditional models of characterization, so too does she want to argue against traditional models of narrative. The novel, mainstream or SF, is a form dominated by a narrative structure of rising action, climax, and denouement (SF novels, arising in part out of male-aimed adventure narratives, are particularly fond of this pattern). The action is almost always linear. Russ has argued in other venues (I'm thinking of her 1972 essay on female heroes and male plots) that such a narrative structure responds to male concerns and anxieties, and that forms/modes such as the lyric (nonlinear writing clustered around a theme or idea) hold more promise for women interested in writing. *Female Man*'s confusing form is her experiment along these lines; take another look at the passages on the theory of parallel universes/timelines and the "Goldilocks" story Joanna is told on Whileaway. I'm sorry if the original line read as obscure; it's partially b/c I was in a hurry when writing the original post and partially b/c I'm not yet used to writing for a mixed audience, academically speaking (when teaching in person, I can always elaborate once I see glazed stares :). This list is helpful in that last regard. > The third is that I regret that I'll never have the privilege of attending > a class in which you discuss this topic. I would find your > explanations illuminating. Thanks! > I did gather, though, that you support my position that the average > SF/F buyer would probably have difficulty understanding some of > Russ' work. For this I thank you. Well, yes, he or she probably would have difficulties. But then he or she would also have trouble dealing with much literature pre-1900 as well, due to stylistic differences and vocabulary shifts. My own feeling is that *Female Man* (or "Nobody's Home" -- which we also read -- or "Souls" -- which we didn't) is written in a clear enough vocabulary (if not a clear narrative sequence) that a first reading would be mostly understandable (in the sense that the confusion would be centered on specific moments and passages as opposed to the entire book). My students are mostly not SF fans/readers, so they were quite confused about the basic situation. SF types would immediately warm up to the parallel universes/utopias/ genotypes material; it's the style and modernist/post-modern literary tricks that would have them confused. All of the above has a big "IMHO" attached to it, of course. :) Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Garden shrugged. "I see no reason to give the Heroes priority. The world is a One Twist Ring: we affect the Mist, the Mist affects the real world. Stories from one get told in the other." - Sean Stewart, _Clouds End_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:10:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Byrne Subject: Overpopulation sf? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need some advice. I'm trying to think of a sf novel to use in a "population and culture" undergrad anthropology course this fall. I've already planned to use Tepper's Family Tree in an ecological anthropology course in the spring -- it's more appropriate there, and I think the "solution" chosen by the humans will stimulate much discussion. I've thought about Soylent Green for the population class, but am otherwise feeling brain dead for lack of ideas. I'd love suggestions of well-written lit with central and thoughtful focus on dilemmas of population, fertility, infertility, mortality, migration, etc. Candice Bradley ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:40:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? In-Reply-To: <35BBEF96.EBCBA012@athenet.net> from "Daniel Byrne" at Jul 26, 98 10:10:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Candice, John Brunner's *Stand on Zanzibar* or *The Sheep Look Up* are the two choices that immediately come to my mind. Asimov's *Caves of Steel* might also be appropriate. Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Garden shrugged. "I see no reason to give the Heroes priority. The world is a One Twist Ring: we affect the Mist, the Mist affects the real world. Stories from one get told in the other." - Sean Stewart, _Clouds End_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:42:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Joanna Russ's work and how we deal with our world... Comments: cc: Alektra@aol.com, aaa@lava.net, JEricMason@aol.com, rakko7@kuentos.guam.net, camille@voicenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Having finally begun reading the "niche market" thread, though I suspect I've missed/not received a few (please forgive my unintentional redundancy, if any), let me first say, good luck, Marina, and you, too, Anthea, with dealing with the ugliness that your home countries are going through (and I hope you get to monitor yours at whatever distance and for however long you choose, Marina--would Canada be an option if INS tries to push you out?)--and as others have pointed out, that ugliness exists too freely here in the US as well (I live in Center City Philadelphia, where I could ignore the conditions of some of my fellows only with difficulty...not, you understand, that I've done a whole hell of lot to change things for all of us recently). And while it's trivial, it should be noted, Marina, that despite the stock doing well, Amazon hasn't made "any money to speak of" as they say--stock has little to do with performance, and, as Frederik Pohl among others has pointed out, everything to do with how stockholders/buyers/sellers perceive the potential of the item. Hence all these lovely bursting bubbles that ultimately kill and immediately worsen the lives of so many of us. I haven't read much of Elgin's work, a little more of her linguistic nf than her fiction in fact, but I have read the majority of Russ's published fiction and the only four nonfiction books by her I know of, along with scattered book reviews and other items. I consider THE FEMALE MAN her best novel of the ones I've read (yet to dig into AND CHAOS DIED, KITANNINY (sp?), or WE WHO ARE ABOUT TO..., but have read the novella ON STRIKE AGAINST GOD and the Alyx books, along with the story collections), and have also lent or given copies of FEMALE MAN to four intelligent womenfriends so far, with the following responses: a 17 year old of latterday hippy proclivities struggled with it, lent it to a friend of similar age who returned it to her, as she reported to me very gravely, with the judgment that it was totally incoherent (I'm afraid I didn't suppress my laughter very well); a 26-year-old George Elliot fan found it hard to follow and too didactic; a 29yo Ursula K Le Guin fan found it hard to follow; my early-40s ex-behavioral psychologist medical student friend hasn't gotten back to me about it yet. I suspect that since none of the four is particularly "literary," even the Elliot fan not reading fiction on a regular basis throughout her life, might've thrown them in their attempts to draw a quickly-identified narrative from the book. When I read it at 18, I had been reading the likes of Donald Barthelme's work for years, so shifting vignettes didn't hold to many terrors, but I've wondered why many bestseller- novel-readers (with the books' stage-setting introductions to initially unrelated characters) would complain about being presented with a more concise and wittier version of the same thing. Impatient readers, I've decided, are not the ideal audience for this novel...but to call it difficult is to mistake ambition and playfulness for obscurity. I did not, as a man, find this book to hold men in contempt; if anything, it seemed to me to go out of its way to present a portrait of flawed humanity wrestling with oppressive systems and their own self-criticism. It satirizes the asinine behavior of at least some men, but women as well, and Russ is careful to make Janet Evason, from the non-Utopian Whileaway (how utopian is it to face death penalties for daring to break an utlimately arbitrary code of behavior? Or to foster potentially deadly duels?), not only blithely unquestioning of the grim lies cultures pass on through the generations (her explanation of her work as a cop, words to the effect that without the threat of murder for noncomformists, then everyone would be selfish and do what they wanted--a heavy tweaking of Marxist, or at very least Leninist, orthodoxy, I'd say), but also wrestling with her sexual desire for a taboo-age adolescent (a theme Russ will return to in ON STRIKE AGAINST GOD). And even Janet, unimpressed with dual-sex society and men as she is, is less than enthusiastic about the "fourth face of the author", the fighter in the ruthless sexual war which created Evason's world. Also interesting to me is the apparent fact that DHALGREN by Samuel Delany and THE FEMALE MAN were, according to Russ's interview with Charles Platt in DREAM MAKERS II, the only books in the Bantam SF line to make much money in the 1970s, when both were literarily ambitious (and DHALGREN both much longer and reportedly at least as likely to be found "difficult"). Certainly Bantam did multiple printings and at least two editions of TFM, and D sold very well. The question of whether those books became merely furniture is a good one (Kurt Vonnegut has referred to his books, and Heinlein's STRANGER, and Burroughs's NAKED LUNCH as being hipster coffee table ornaments, and certainly this has been suggested about Tolkien's SIMARILLION as well as by Anthea and others about the Hawking book, among others). But I suspect that a large number of purchasers came to the book looking for feminist fiction, or like myself were already Russ readers, or indeed were looking for something a little challenging. (Anthea, I wish most sf on the shelves these days was even a little challenging to anyone other than those who like good prose...but in many bookstores the mediocre and worse choke out what's even a little ambitious in an even higher proportion than in the late 1970s, when I started to pay attention). (Of course, this is not solely a problem on the sf shelves, but in all the fiction displays--more of the good stuff falling into the memory hole while new shiny tinsel predominates.) (And the trivialization of sf for most people who have had literary training, as opposed to education, has meant that we have an insuffiiciently large audience for literary sf, for commercial viabliity from most publishers' view. At Giovanni's Room, the feminist/lesbian/gay male store where I picked up WHAT...?, I couldn't obtain Thomas Disch's similarly wide-ranging THE DREAMS OUR STUFF IS MADE OF, for despite the fact that Disch is a recognized talent with audiences in many disciplines, and has not shied away from his own homosexuality in public prononcements and has dealt with gay characters in his work--his books don't sell at Giovanni's Room. The one copy of ON WINGS OF SONG they've had has sat for years. Samuel Delany doesn't sell, with the partial exception of his erotica, and that not well. Russ's TFM is her only fiction they stock, one copy at a time. And this at the store that has a near monopoly on the community-audience, with only the megachains mildly challenging, in the second largest city in the East Coast US.) There is compassion as well as anger in most of the Russ work I've read, and that definitely includes the essays in TO WRITE LIKE A WOMAN and MAGIC MOMMAS, TREMBLING SISTERS, PURITANS AND PERVERTS and the book-length studies HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMEN'S WRITING and WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR? The scope of the last one, a survey of most of the areas wherein feminist thought has been applied and suppressed, and a plea for more interaction between feminist and Marxist thought, is both valuable in serving as a survey that brings a lot of writers to the attention of people who might read them in a large-publisher's book by Russ, but not read them in SIGNS much less the small press books or less well- established journals or rare pamphlets, and also for the passages wherein Russ lets us see her own evolving interpretation of the materials. Even if there is, in a way, too little Russ in the book for my taste (and I certainly hope she doesn't believe, as she sometimes cutely implies, that Marx was the first or only significant person to describe how laborers are exploited...for example, no fan of Mary Wollstonecraft and her daughter should be unaware of her husband William Godwin's not early, but pre-Marx, contribution to this study, to say nothing of MW and MW Godwin/Shelley themselves). Someone whose request I can't relocate asked whether she should read TO WRITE or HOW TO to get a flavor of Russ--both, of course, but TO WRITE will give you more of an idea of the breadth of her interests, HOW TO will give you more of an idea of her depth. Several people have mentioned their discomfort with Russ's Marxism (which so far as I've read is like bell hooks's socialism, seemingly very compatible with the libertarian tendencies over in the direction of anarchism moreso than with stodgy compromises of social democracy, though that certainly to be preferred to the "beating the people with the people's stick" (Noam Chomsky quoting Bakunin) that authoritarian Marxism, and certainly all Leninism, has been. Gandhi's reported quip about Western Civilisation, that it would be a very good idea, is always brought to mind when discussions of socialism and capitalism come up--let's see some system in place where worker's ownership and control of their own lives isn't traduced by what Bakunin called a "new class" of pseudoprletarian demagogues, or where free markets and free association aren't traduced by powerful people making sure that they retain that power: then we can speak of the successes and failures of the two ideas, as opposed to the multiply hyphenated realities the ideas are used to disguise. And when you get right down to it, every writer is only going to reach a niche market. The simple majority of people today might, maybe, know something of the Old and New Testaments. Maybe. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:06:23 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: A couple of Points on Russ stuff: Anderson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ...and these days, of course, your niece probably won't be able to afford quitting work even when she marries, particularly if she even begins to think about children. As Russ doesn't miss in her economics discussion in WHAT...? Not, of course, that you can miss it today. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:22:16 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: THELMA AND LOUISE as feminist document: Marina Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit That T&L could even begin to be referred to as "male-bashing" is indicative of the gender-inequity in film, much less reality. The women are not only conveniently (if semi-realistically) and equivocally "punished" at the end (transcendence in death, what you, too, can look forward to, gals!), but they wouldn't even have gotten that far w/o the assistance of a ridiculously paternal cop, played by Harvey Keitel. In fact, I think T&L could've played in Russ's FEMALE MAN third reality, the one of no WW2 and Feminine Mystique without end. That it raised even a small number of earnest complaints in our reality suggests little good about some sensitivities. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:32:43 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf?: Bradley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ...And before you consider SOYLENT GREEN, please consider the much better work it's loosely based on, MAKE ROOM! MAKE ROOM! by Harry Harrison. Ms.Lee Hoffman's short story "Soundless Evening" in AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS might be worth a look for you as well. Interesting that the four of the five works I've seen us recommend so far are all from the latter 1960s... And certainly Lester del Rey's novel THE ELEVENTH COMMANDMENT deals with the issue, but I haven't read it to give any idea of the centrality of the issue (I believe it is central) or of the book's quality. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:47:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? In-Reply-To: <35BBEF96.EBCBA012@athenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The reference may be too incidental to the book and movie, but what about "The Lathe of Heaven"? I loved the way overpopulation was folded into the background without mention in the movie, then removed almost without mention once the protagonist's dreams brought it about. Very forceful effect, though, because this is frequently the way we are aware of enormous conditions - as subconsiously noted background. Probably not central enough a theme for your class, though. What about Tiptree's "Angel Fix"? Would light sarcasm be appropriate? Kathleen On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Daniel Byrne wrote (in part): > I need some advice. I'm trying to think of a sf novel to use in a "population > and culture" undergrad anthropology course this fall. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:54:11 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elaine Kushmaul Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please terminate my subscription to this service, Thanks, Elaine Kushmaul ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:04:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: THELMA AND LOUISE as feminist document: Marina In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought it was interesting that the Canadian Broadcast Company compared _THELMA AND LOUISE_ to _BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID_. The CBC reviewer loved it (think it was Michael Enright, but it's been a while) and said it was one of the best "buddies" movies out in a long time. It wasn't till after I'd seen the movie that I heard the American reviews and was shocked by the hypocracy of the male reviewers who'd swallowed "Psyco", "Frenzy", "Friday the Thirteenth", the "Cape Fear" remake, etc., etc., whole. This was before a couple of drastic budget cuts at the CBC, though. They seem to have gotten much more in line with American broadcasting since then. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:14:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, for an apocolyptic view there is Parable Of The Sower by Octavia Butler...or dystopian view of America in the future when the society decays, makes this a good read. It presents a world where people are striving to keep a value system based on what they learned from their parents and relations with the people within their social climate, but that set of values is out of place in the world they are currently struggling to survive in...for example, how prominent the girls in the gated enclave keep to the values of wanting a future involving becoming someones wife and someones mother, despite the fact that outside the gate are people who have lost all sense of possessing any value system other than survival of the strongest...for a similar view I read I think it was Yarbro's novel where this young girl and an older man trek across the state to find a place called sanctuary while bands of criminals try to physically control the areas they keep under surveilance...forgot the title of that one, and, the romance portrayed in it took away the essence of the story for me, was seeing it as a survival epic more than anything where a romance could bloom under such dystopian conditions, perhaps this was to show hope for mankind in this environment...shrug... Jo Ann At 10:10 PM 7/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >I need some advice. I'm trying to think of a sf novel to use in a "population >and culture" undergrad anthropology course this fall. I've already planned to >use Tepper's Family Tree in an ecological anthropology course in the spring -- >it's more appropriate there, and I think the "solution" chosen by the humans >will stimulate much discussion. > >I've thought about Soylent Green for the population class, but am otherwise >feeling brain dead for lack of ideas. I'd love suggestions of well-written >lit with central and thoughtful focus on dilemmas of population, fertility, >infertility, mortality, migration, etc. > >Candice Bradley > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:06:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Joanna Russ--The Female Man In-Reply-To: <4a2f105e.35bc07f5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I happen to like The Female Man a lot. When it first came out in the 1970s I found it one of the key texts in helping me understand the women's movement. Last year I taught the book for the first time. The class was called Science Fiction and Gender. Most of the students were female, most had a women's studies minor. The Female Man was by far the least popular book we did. The students generally (there were some expections) preferred books by LeGuin, Piercy, Lois Bujold, Nicola Grifith, Tepper even the Heinlein novel I threw in for comparison. Why? Because they found the Russ novel incomprehensible, in part because it is and always was a tough book to understand, but also because it's aged a good bit. The book is chock full of topical references to the 1960s and 70s that my 20ish students found totally opaque. Russ's anger was also a stumbling block for them. Rightly or wrongly, they couldn't identify with it, thought it excessive, felt like there was no reason for women to be quite that angry. Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:55:11 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Ms.Devilspin (jenn)" Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:47 25/07/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Ms.Devilspin (jenn) wrote: > >> Thanks everyone for your help with the books! Ill try and get them. So far >> Ive only found 3 available at my library at uni *sigh* > >Since I'm interested in cyberpunk, I tried to find them too. >None of them are available at my library at university, I checked each >one mentioned on the list. I don't expect much luck with other libraries in >Oklahoma, either. Thanks God for interlibrary loan. Last time, I was >able to borrow Mists of Avalon from a library in Arizona (two states away). >Maybe they'll find Snow Crash for me somewhere in Virgin Islands... > >*sigh* *sigh* > >Marina They wouldn't let me use the interlibrary loan system. Im not postgrad... the bastards *grin* ~*If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.*~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:54:42 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Joanna Russ--The Female Man: Levy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Maybe because I lived through the 1970s, maybe because I've always been sympathetic to feminism and other liberation movements, and perhaps because I've been such an obsessive reader...but it still strikes me oddly to read that THE FEMALE MAN is a genuinely difficult book. Btw, did anyone here ever hear Russ's recording of "When It Changed" and a brief essay for Alternate Worlds Recordings ca. 1977? Sure wish I had, ever since reading Spider Robinson's somewhat saddened and hostile review in GALAXY magazine... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 03:31:23 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-07-27 02:55:48 EDT, you write: << They wouldn't let me use the interlibrary loan system. Im not postgrad... the bastards *grin >> One thing the bastards might have on hand is the cyberpunk issue of THE MISSOURI REVIEW...though it and other pomo and related issues of that little 'zine will undoubtedly have to be read on the premises. While there, you might want to check the stacks for such favorite magazine markets for c-punk as ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION, INTERZONE, OMNI's small fiction component, and less likely things (SEMIOTEXTE SF [with a brilliant Rachel Pollock story]; SCIENCE FICTION EYE; Pat[ricia] Cadigan's magazine SHAYOL, though mostly fantasy; UnEARTH, which "discovered" William Gibson; PANDORA, in at least two incarnations the longest-running feminist sf magazine)...you might be surprised. Everyone should read the SF issue of TRIQUARTERLY from 1979 at least once as well... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:26:36 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: BDG: Rusch, additional readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Kristine Kathryn Rusch, Alien Influences additional writings Part I: internet publications ONLINE REVIEWS: SF Site review by Lisa Dumond http://www.sfsite.com/dec97a/ali22.htm Science Fiction Weekly review by Susan Dunman http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue59/books.html#ai 1 review by a reader on the Amazon site MISC: Rusch home page http://www.horrornet.com/rusch.htm synopsis of paper written for a conference on The Fantastic (sponsored, it seems, by the AFFN, the Academic Fantastic Fiction Network) organized by Andy Butler and Samantha Barber at Hull University November 25th-26th 1995. "Is Kristine Kathryn too Rusched?" by Chris Fowler, University of Westminster http://www.hull.ac.uk/english/fanconf.htm Alien Influences published as novella in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction [v83 #1, No. 494, July 1992] If anyone has any additional references, please forward them to me or post them directly to the list. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:13:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janice M Bogstad Subject: worldcon membership for sale(baltimore) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" HI, is anyone interested in a worldcon membership? I have an extra one which I will sell for $80 - and I only have one so I will go on the basis of who contacts me first. I have all the paperwork to transfer the membership to another person - let me know if you are interested or know someone who might be interested. Thanks, Jan Bogstad +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Janice M. Bogstad, Associate Professor Collection Development Librarian Library & Information Services, McIntyre Library University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire Eau Claire, WI 54702-5010 USA email: bogstajm@uwec.edu telephone: 715-836-6032 "I HAVE NEVER REGRETTED BUYING A BOOK, BUT I HAVE OFTEN REGRETTED NOT BUYING A BOOK." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:26:09 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Russell Williams Subject: PLEASE READ!!!!!!!!!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE DO NOT SEND EVERY PIECE OF MAIL TO ME. I AM SICK OF DOWNLOADING OVER 100 PIECES OF JUNK MAIL. IT IS MY GIRLFRIEND THAT HAS BEEN USING MY MAIL BOX TO TALK TO PEOPLE!!!!! PLEASE ONLY FORWARD MAIL IF IT IS SPECIFICALLY FOR KAREN LOVE. MY SERVER HAS ALSO WARNED ME ABOUT FILLING UP THE SERVER AND HAS THREATENED TO CUT ME OFF!!!!!! THANK YOU. Russell John Williams russwill@alphalink.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:40:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? In-Reply-To: <701e170f.35bc02ec@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Todd Mason wrote: > Ms.Lee Hoffman's short story "Soundless Evening" in AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS > might be worth a look for you as well. Interesting that the four of the five > works I've seen us recommend so far are all from the latter 1960s... Yes, perhaps it took a while for the reality and utility of new birth control technologies to sink in. Or maybe we are either deeper into denial or more optimistic about the future -- either way, it seems to me that I've seen fewer distopic visions on the New Books listings recently. Anne Anne Vespry ******* http://www.vex.net/~maverick After Stonewall Bookshop ***** never forget avespry(at) *** only dead fish ollisdotuottawadotca * swim WITH the stream ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:07:51 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Heidi H." Subject: Re: PLEASE READ!!!!!!!!!!!! Content-Type: text/plain Russell-- Either you or your girlfriend has subscribed to the Feminist SF mailing list. This list generally receives 20-30 emails a day. None of these emails are addressed specifically to one person; they're for the whole list. To unsubscribe from this list: To unsubscribe, mail a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe feministsf >PLEASE DO NOT SEND EVERY PIECE OF MAIL TO ME. I AM SICK OF DOWNLOADING OVER >100 PIECES OF JUNK MAIL. IT IS MY GIRLFRIEND THAT HAS BEEN USING MY MAIL BOX >TO TALK TO PEOPLE!!!!! PLEASE ONLY FORWARD MAIL IF IT IS SPECIFICALLY FOR >KAREN LOVE. >MY SERVER HAS ALSO WARNED ME ABOUT FILLING UP THE SERVER AND HAS THREATENED >TO CUT ME OFF!!!!!! > >THANK YOU. > > >Russell John Williams >russwill@alphalink.com.au > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:25:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? Comments: To: Daniel Byrne Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy deals very realistically with population pressures and the prospect of a new "frontier," in this case a terrafromed planet. The middle book, Green Mars, deals the most with overpopulation on Earth. Chuck0 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [*FSFFU*] Overpopulation sf? Author: Daniel Byrne at Internet Date: 7/26/98 10:10 PM I need some advice. I'm trying to think of a sf novel to use in a "population and culture" undergrad anthropology course this fall. I've already planned to use Tepper's Family Tree in an ecological anthropology course in the spring -- it's more appropriate there, and I think the "solution" chosen by the humans will stimulate much discussion. I've thought about Soylent Green for the population class, but am otherwise feeling brain dead for lack of ideas. I'd love suggestions of well-written lit with central and thoughtful focus on dilemmas of population, fertility, infertility, mortality, migration, etc. Candice Bradley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:38:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Anne Vespry wrote: > > Yes, perhaps it took a while for the reality and utility of new birth > control technologies to sink in. Or for the realization of what the elimination of the sexual double standard (sex = baby or risk of death, but for women only) would mean for women's freedom and men's privilege to sink in. > Or maybe we are either deeper into denial > or more optimistic about the future -- either way, it seems to me that > I've seen fewer distopic visions on the New Books listings recently. > Anne > Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:12:19 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 23 Jul 1998 to 24 Jul 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rudy Leon wrote: > Just checked out Cordelia's Honor, War of the Oaks and Dazzle of Day from > the Library, which is missing the first two books before The Last Hawk.... > must I read the first two to get _Hawk_? Hi, Rudy. HAWK has no dependence on the first two books. It concerns a different character and planet than the other two. In fact, it actually starts the earliest of the three books. So it is completely stand-alone. Tor reprinted PRIMARY INVERSION, so it should be available, or if the bookstore is sold out, they should have no problem reorderingit. As far as I know, CATCH THE LIGHTNING is still available. Many thanks for your interest! :-) ------------------ In the discussion of the audience for books, and sf/f books in particular. My understanding is that women actually make up something like 75% of the book buying public. That is apparently making its effect known in sf/f as well as other genres. ------------------ My thanks to everyone for the many wondeful emails, and my apologies on my slow response times. I get up to several hundred email messages a day, so my slowness is only due to letting myself fall behind. :-) Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:39:36 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: McCaffrey's "Freedom's ...." books In-Reply-To: <00183766.1205@aaas.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Some time ago I mentioned McCaffrey's "Freedom's ...." series as an example of feministSF. At the time Angela Quick expressed some reservations about the series in that "It develops in some pretty un-feminist ways". I imported the last 2 from the US last week and have just finished reading them. I'd hoped that Angela was wrong because I like McCaffrey, but (unfortunately) she was not. I found "Freedom's Choice" (the 2nd book) to be distasteful because of the "body/choice" thing, but also very scrappy. The good character development in the 1st seemed to have been lost, while McCaffrey's usually high standard of "continuity writing" seems to have fallen somewhat short. All in all I was disappointed. I felt almost cheated. "Freedom's Challenge" (the last) I thought was both better and worse - better because it seemed cleaner and with better characterization, and worse because after a not too promising start it metamorphosed into "space opera" - the type where the hero wakes up naked on a distant planet, and by page 192 he's Emperor of the Galaxy (I'm obviously exaggerating grossly). For some reason, Philip E High's fiction - with his penchant for magic tricks - kept crossing my mind. But the reason for these comments was not to slag off Anne McCaffrey who wrote an enjoyable, if somewhat disappointing trilogy. It was to suggest that the three books appeared _TO ME_ to have been written - at least partly - to set up a universe which McCaffrey and/or collaborators would "populate" with a series of books. Did anyone else get this impression? AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:39:36 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: <199807270148.VAA71728@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Jul 98, at 21:48, Robert Barrett wrote: > Heh. Let me expand on the point: [snip...] Thank you Rob, your explanation makes it much clearer. People often accuse us mathematics graduates of being abstruse, but a good professor of English can leave us standing any day. It's not that I object to difficult reading - even of a book that no matter how often I read it never appears to be completely clear; I've been working back and forth through "Finnegan's Wake" with great delight for 8 years. But I don't _need_ to understand "F... W...". But myself and other ordinary women _do_ need to understand and then to question the basic foundations of our feminism beliefs. If we don't, we have no way of contextualizing them to our own situations or of conscientizing other women to the particular forms of repression they face. The worrying thing is that male critics of feminist literature seem to have no difficulty in providing clear, if highly biased, summaries of feminist thought. I hate to say it, but it seems the more sexist, racist etc a book is, the more clearly and understandably it's written - witness the thoroughly evil "The Bell Curve..." AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:22:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patrick Boily Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Allo. On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Anthea wrote: > The worrying thing is that male critics of feminist literature seem to > have no difficulty in providing clear, if highly biased, summaries of > feminist thought. I hate to say it, but it seems the more sexist, > racist etc a book is, the more clearly and understandably it's > written - witness the thoroughly evil "The Bell Curve..." That might very well be because it's relatively easy to say something like "We hate you 'cause you're not like us...", without leaving very much room to doubt what is meant. (In some ways a bit like "It's easier to destroy something then to build something..." I forget what I'm trying to say. Yeah for us.) -- Patrick Boily ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:14:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Joanna Russ--The Female Man: Levy In-Reply-To: <3cb9ea36.35bc2433@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:54 AM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote: >Maybe because I lived through the 1970s, maybe because I've always been >sympathetic to feminism and other liberation movements, and perhaps because >I've been such an obsessive reader...but it still strikes me oddly to read >that THE FEMALE MAN is a genuinely difficult book. Me, too, but not for the same reasons. Since Russ has been so often categorized as a "feminist writer", and apparently nothing else, I think people are apt to attribute her difficulty to her feminism or anger. I think it has more to do with her postmodern narrative tactics, which make *The Female Man* difficult in the same way that some of works of Virginia Woolf (*Mrs. Dalloway* and *To the Lighthouse*) and William Faulkner (*Absalom, Absalom!* and *As I Lay Dying*) are difficult. Stream of consciousness writing and the assumption of a constructed reality take some getting used to if one has never encountered them before. So unless a person is already used to this style, perhaps *The Female Man* shouldn't be their introduction to feminist science fiction. There are many other writers of feminist SF who employ more traditional narrative forms and thus are not as confusing to the average reader. Some examples are Pat Murphy, Karen Joy Fowler, Ursula Le Guin, Vonda McIntyre, Kate Wilhelm, and the list goes on... So, to hark back to Anthea's concern that feminist SF is not accessible enough -- I don't believe it's an issue. I suppose it depends on what your definition of "feminist science fiction" is, of course, but at least in the United States, the number of books being published that fit MY definition, as well as the back list of older books I haven't yet read, exceeds my reading speed. The vast majority of these works are not "difficult" in the way that *The Female Man* is. I happen to love its style, and at this point do not find it difficult, but I can see that it may not be for everyone. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:03:13 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Cosm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anny Middon wrote: > I did however get around to reading Gregory Benford's Cosm, which I checked > out from my local library. Cosm features a physicist protagonist who is > African-American and female. For some reason this character never rang true > to me. I was always uneasily aware that this was a black female as conceived > by a white male. > > And yet I could never quite identify what was wrong with the portrayal. So > maybe it was just me and those aforementioned summertime blues. Have others > on this list read Cosm? If so, what did you think of the protagonist? Did > the portrayal ring true to you? If not, can you identify why not? Anny, I think I might be able to identify it, or at least why I had a similar reaction. In many ways I enjoyed Cosm. The science is right-on, with fascinating extrapolations and ideas. As a physicist, I thoroughly enjoyed that aspect of it. Also, the book depicts well the hard edge that can sometimes be found on the world of academic physics. In some ways I thought Alicia a good depiction of a scientist. In other ways I found the character disappointing. Alicia's fascination with physics and her genius for it are dead-on target. Cosm portrayed those aspects better than I've seen elsewhere, especially for female and minority scientists, who all too often are relegated, in fiction, to being the junior member of the team, the one with less authority, the one who is less competent, or the one who makes the mistake that the guys have to clean up. Even when such scientists are portrayed as competent, they are rarely the central figure. Often the female scientist is there to be the love interest for the central male scientist. Also, it is relatively rare to show the female or minority scientist wrestling successfully with thorny ethical issues. In Cosm, however, Alicia is the lead and plays those roles more often associated with male leads. Her decisions sometimes troubled me. However, Cosm portrays the complex situation she faces with sophistication and gives her authentic motivations. That the story convinced me the character worked, despite my reservations, is an indication of the depth in character development. Ultimately Alicia comes across as an ethical person put in a situation with =no= good solution. She is human: she makes mistakes. But when she does so, she takes responsibility for them and does her best to right the resulting problems. I also liked that Cosm dealt in a realistic manner with the love story, including its interracial aspects. The way Alicia and the guy from CalTech get together is believable. Neither character is there solely as The Love Interest. Both are credible and complex as scientists, and they don't fall into stereotyped traps, either in terms of gender or race. They respect and like each other. It is a rather charming portrayal of how some physicists fall in love (the mating behaviors of homo physicus; doing physics of course! ). However, in other ways the characterizations didn't work for me. Although Alicia is believable in how =she= acts as a scientist, I found the way other people reacted to her far less well done. They treated her as if she were a white male. Having been on various committees and panels designed to study the problem of why so few women and minorities go into science, and what steps we can take to improve the numbers, and having experienced the problems myself, first hand, I've accumulated far more knowledge than I ever wanted on the difficulties of women in science. The presentation of the character of Alicia ignores just about all those problems. It also dug up a few stereotypes about female physicists that I had hoped had fallen by the wayside (like female physicsts shouldn't look feminine). In terms of Alicia's racial identity, it isn't there, except physically. Her characterization is, in part, a rejection of what it means to be African American. I also found the brief portrayal of the few other African American men in the book painful. Cosm sidestepped the issue of women and race in science, which to me are integral aspects of such a characterization, particularly to those of us who have lived them. In that sense the book disappointed me. I also was stunned by the choice of Butterworth for the character's last name. Given the connotations that can be drawn from that, a less loaded word would have worked a lot better. I also wasn't wild about the plot device of having the guy die as a result of the lab accident. So my reactions were mixed. However, I do think Cosm deserves credit for what it tried to do. The science is wonderful. If it doesn't succeed completely in its portrayal of a female, minority physicist, it does a better job of it than many other sf books I've read. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:51:39 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pk Madsen Subject: Re: Overpopulation books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit How about Logan's Run? Their solution was that no one lived past the age of 30. Plus no one went outside.....no one KNEW there was an outside. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, you have your Tepper, but if you have room for a less practical solution ending (but all-too-likely-sounding scenarios en route) you might want to take a second look at "Beauty". "Down, down, down to Happy Land..." If you can find them in print, Pohl and Kornbluth's "Gladiator at Law" and "The Space Merchants" seem to me to ring truer as they get older. On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:10:14 -0500 Daniel Byrne writes: >I need some advice. I'm trying to think of a sf novel to use in a >"population >and culture" undergrad anthropology course this fall. I've already >planned to >use Tepper's Family Tree in an ecological anthropology course in the >spring -- >it's more appropriate there, and I think the "solution" chosen by the >humans >will stimulate much discussion. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:20:47 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: Books in softback MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone got any idea when Vonda's The Moon and The Sun, or Russ' What Are We Fighting For? will be out in paperback? I went to my women's bookshop to get them, and they will cost me about $NZ60 and $70 in hardback. It's _frustrating_ getting books six months after most people on this list, and not being able to participate in the discussion! Jenny R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:33:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Piers Anthony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IMHO, some of the very EARLY books were pretty good. I think he reached a sort of crisis with "Macroscope", which went off into an ending I could never fathom (not exactly "suddenly everyone was run over by a truck", but I never did work out what was going on), but there was all kinds of fascinating stuff along the way. Looking back at what I found mindblowing at the time and trying to re-read it now... What WAS so amazing about Asimov's "Nightfall"? I can hardly see it now, but it rocked me back THEN. I guess cutting edge becomes mainstream, then gets old, and unless the ideas are embedded in literate, witty packages, they just become historical curiosities. Ideas that are new to one can cover a multitude of awful writing--the FIRST time of reading. As a young teenager I was enthralled by Dennis Wheatly's occult thrillers, but when I tried to re-read one---well, does anyone remember the "word-wooze" in Fritz Lieber's "The Silver Eggheads"? The machine-generated fiction was totally compelling the first time around, but nobody could ever read it a second time. I enjoyed Piers Anthony for some years, but "A Spell for Chameleon" was the last title I really liked. I went on reading for a while thereafter, but, alas.... On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:13:05 +0200 Anthea writes: >On 25 Jul 98, at 2:51, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > >> Lately when I stare at the shelf at Waldenbooks...entire shelf for >Piers >> Anthony whom I have not read, I pick up what looks interesting on >the >> backcover and look at a few pages, but nothing snags me in his work >so >> far, whereas I was reading Baudino's work waiting in line to pay for >the >> book...it is when something clicks of interest and urges me to read >> onward, that is priceless pleasure... > >Today though I found it very difficult to get a good selection of >Cherryh books simply because in South Africa, they're highly >popular and are snapped up as soon as they're put on the >bookstore shelves. > >So at least there's one feminist author in demand - even if it is in >the Third World. > > >AJ >----------------------------------------- >gaudit@global.co.za > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:23:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980724051435.006dfc80@Silent-Running.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: (snip) > for a similar view I read I think it was Yarbro's novel where this young > girl and an older man trek across the state to find a place called > sanctuary while bands of criminals try to physically control the areas > they keep under surveilance...forgot the title of that one, and, the > romance portrayed in it took away the essence of the story for me, was > seeing it as a survival epic more than anything where a romance could > bloom under such dystopian conditions, perhaps this was to show hope for > mankind in this environment...shrug... This sounds like *False Dawn*. It's more of a post-apocalyptic wasteland type novel than one about overpopulation. > Jo Ann Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:56:08 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/27/98 10:35:55 PM, you wrote: <> Oh gee, exactly... we grow up, and out, and down. there are a few books -- of all types -- which still strike me as they did when I was first exposed to wondrful ideas that were NEW to me. But that's what ideas as supposed to do. We get nit-picky here, but most people (from my reading of the posts) haven't lost the sense of wanting the wonder. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Comments: To: Marina In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Have you ever read the "Chicks in Chainmail" short stories edited by Esther Friesner? There is a lot of humor in the stories which to me are making fun of the stereotypical male-bashing iron-bra ladies in some fantasy fiction. My name is Bertina Miller, I am new to the list, by the way:) On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Marina wrote: > I wonder whether "angry at men" books could be more popular if they were > more "fun", or it's just "misogynistic" stuff is more likely to be > considered entertaining? > > This is not a rethorical question. I'm always wondering why Thelma and > Louise is often considered a "male-bashing" movie, while all the numerous > presentations of women as evil, stupid, selfish, treacherous, > manipulative, or anything else, is never called "female-bashing". Think > about this: about half of all Hollywood movies (or so it seems) have the > leading female character being a prostitute. I mean, when female > characters have any occupation other than being the hero's love interest. > At least one of the Oscar nominations for the best actress _every year_ > is for playing a hooker -- ever noticed that? Could it accurately represent > the percentage of women doing that in real life? Or is it just because the > idea of a woman whose main purpose in life is to please men seems so attractive > male artists (directors, screenplay writers, producers, etc.) that they just > cannot stop making movies about them? I swear, if two hundred years from now, > someone tries to figure out what our life now was like, they'll probably > decide that the main profession for females was walking the streets. Because > in movies, it sure beats all other occupations for women combined. > > Back to the question. In the majority of stories presented by mass > culture, including the "high art", male protagonist has a > mother/gilfriend/wife/evil grade-school teacher that "does not > understand" the hero and makes his life utterly miserable. In the end, > he usually proves himself and "shows" her, or dies, leaving no doubt > that it's all her fault. It's kind of a "normal" average storyline that > people have seen and heard a zillion times and in most cases did not > recognize any political agenda in it. It is simply entertainment. > However, when the same thing is put the other way around -- a woman > persecuted by evil males -- it's always considered "feminist propaganda". > > I just wonder whether it's because we are more used to see women being > put down than men in the same situation., so we don't react as strongly. Or > it's that angry women are not as much fun in their bashing process to > captivate people even if they do not agree. > > Marina > > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Anthea wrote: > > > On 23 Jul 98, at 10:16, Robin Reid wrote: > > > > > But--check out bookstores. How often do you find Elgin's books? Lots of > > > them are not in print. She's written about how hard it was to get the > > > third book in the N.T. trilogy in print. > > > > Are you not choosing a bad example here? Firstly Elgin wrote the > > NT series for a tightly-focused niche market; her works were > > calculated to offend anyone not already a convert. Can one expect > > men (and women without anger towards men) to buy books which > > refer to them in patronizing, insulting terms? By the same token > > can one reasonably expect booksellers to stock works for which > > there is only a limited sale? > > > > Secondly, "Earthsong" was - I think by general argeement - the > > worst written of the trilogy. Had it not been billed as the last of a > > trilogy and therefore (presumably) had a captive market, I would > > have thought it unpublishable. It was the first of Elgin's books I > > read; I thought it so bad, I didn't bother to buy the other two for two > > years - and then only because they were VERY cheap. > > > > > Elgin's (and Russ') books are not found in every bookstore (I > > > check these things out). Piers Anthony, on the other hand, takes > > > up an immense amount of space .... I find his portrayal of women > > > characters ...stereotyped and misogynistic. > > > > You're comparing "apples and pears" here. Piers Anthony's books > > are good fun. They're well-written and make easy reading although I > > _personally_ find much of his later work irritatingly silly. I agree that > > his female characters seem stereotyped but so do the males. The > > only misogyny I noticed was restricted to essential parts of the plot. > > > > But much of Elgin and most of Russ make heavy reading. Elgin's > > endless patronising, tendentious diatribes in the first NT book or > > the host of pooly developed characters popping out of the > > woodwork in "Earthsong" made them difficult to read, hard to > > appreciate. Much as I respect Russ' work, I don't always enjoy her > > writing because her anger too often threatens to swamp the logic of > > her argument. If I didn't have an _absorbing_ interest in her subject, > > I'd probably regard her books as unreadable. > > > > > If you count up how many male authors are sold in the genre SF/F > > > section, vs. female (let alone feminist), the system is completely > > > biassed toward the DEFAULT/MASCULINE view. > > > > Of course it is but not for the reasons you imply. The "masculine" > > books are written for crass commercial reasons - for entertainment > > value and to attract the widest readership, so their authors, I find, > > write as inclusively as possible, without preaching or lecturing. > > Many feminist authors, on the other hand, appear to write for a > > selected readership with strongly exclusive views (I find all Russ' > > non-fiction and most fiction work to be like this). They often > > "propagandize" more than they entertain (as the NT series amply > > demonstrates). > > > > Can we blame the "system" for bias if feminist SF/F authors > > deliberately marginalize themselves? > > > > > > AJ > > ----------------------------------------- > > gaudit@global.co.za > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:01:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: feminist cyberpunk books? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980727165511.006a504c@hemlock.newcastle.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Ms.Devilspin (jenn) wrote: > They wouldn't let me use the interlibrary loan system. Im not postgrad... > the bastards *grin* Hmm. Here, they let everyone use it. What is it, some educational-level discrimination? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:03:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Anthea wrote: > The worrying thing is that male critics of feminist literature seem to > have no difficulty in providing clear, if highly biased, summaries of > feminist thought. I hate to say it, but it seems the more sexist, > racist etc a book is, the more clearly and understandably it's > written - witness the thoroughly evil "The Bell Curve..." > Could it be because you share their views? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:46:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Doh, you are right sorry...when I saw the Logan's Run suggestion it hit me what the poster was asking for...and, I always wanted to read the book version of that film I saw the movie first on television when I was a teenager and I remember being very absorbed into the plot...does anyone know if the story was a film first or a book first? Jo Ann At 06:23 PM 7/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > >(snip) >> for a similar view I read I think it was Yarbro's novel where this young >> girl and an older man trek across the state to find a place called >> sanctuary while bands of criminals try to physically control the areas >> they keep under surveilance...forgot the title of that one, and, the >> romance portrayed in it took away the essence of the story for me, was >> seeing it as a survival epic more than anything where a romance could >> bloom under such dystopian conditions, perhaps this was to show hope for >> mankind in this environment...shrug... > >This sounds like *False Dawn*. It's more of a post-apocalyptic wasteland >type novel than one about overpopulation. > >> Jo Ann > >Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:19:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Elgin and Russ writing for a niche market Comments: To: Bertina Miller In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > Have you ever read the "Chicks in Chainmail" short stories edited by > Esther Friesner? There is a lot of humor in the stories which to me are > making fun of the stereotypical male-bashing iron-bra ladies in some > fantasy fiction. > > My name is Bertina Miller, I am new to the list, by the way:) Welcome, Bertina! No, I have not read it. Which writers are in there? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:06:04 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 28 Jul 98, at 3:03, Marina wrote: > > The worrying thing is that male critics of feminist literature seem to > > have no difficulty in providing clear, if highly biased, summaries of > > feminist thought. I hate to say it, but it seems the more sexist, racist > > etc a book is, the more clearly and understandably it's written - > > witness the thoroughly evil "The Bell Curve..." > Could it be because you share their views? You seem to specialize in remarks which appear - I could be mistaken - designed to insult any one who disagrees with you. Debate keeps the movement healthy and vital. Your attitude - which is all to common - simply plays into the hands of our male critics and does untold harm by driving ordinary women out of the feminist movement. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:47:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: book stores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Found a wonderful new (to me) bookstore here in eastern massachusetts with an entire wall of used paperback sff... got some great things... but noted no Russ and no Elgin. My suspicion is that people who buy those two writers may hang on to the books and not recycle them. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:05:54 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Russ book available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit (I'd post this on the CRONES site, but I still can't gain access) I have an extra copy of Extra(Ordinary) People Came across this Saturday afternoon on my usual crawl through used-book stores; I'll send it to anyone interested for the couple of bucks it cost plus shipping. (Non-dollars can be worked out in trade.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:24:57 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Crones forum link MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had an idea... For those persons who are unable to access the CRONES home page, try going to the forum directly at this URL: http://207.244.122.48/discussion.cgi?id=20889 hope it works! Lilith -- I dare you -- to be real; To touch -- to touch the flickering flame.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:43:11 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Gattaca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The movie _Gattaca_ has finally reached Germany. I've seen it last weekend. I think besides _Contact_ it is the first good SF movie I've seen in a while. I mean good as SF, I found _Independence Day_ and _Mars attacks_ a lot of fun but not _really_ SF ;-). Now I am in the situation that something is fresh for me and I'd like to discuss it but probably it is old hat for most list members. So I searched the FSFFU archive for postings on _Gattaca_. I was a bit astonished that so far it has hardly been discussed. Was it a flop in other countries? Did nobody see it? Do you think it not worth it? Why does _Starship Troopers_ give rise to a heated discussion while _Gattaca_ is practically ignored on this list? I realise, of course, that many things contribute to whether a discussion 'takes' but nonetheless I wonder. IMO the movie plays through what will happen if a society thinks the future performance of any individual can be directly predicted from her or his genes. Thus, the inquiries at a job application are reduced to a gene test. Education, experience and former work performances are apparently not considered at all. The genes of potential partners are tested before the first date. Conception is not left to chance but the best sperm-egg combination is selected by the parents. 'Natural borns' i.e. people conceived in the 'natural' way form the new proletariat as their genes usually show up (potential) deficiencies like short-sightedness, health problems, less intelligence etc. By the way, short-sightedness is not only a matter of genes but of habits. The higher percentage of short-sighted people in modern society is due to the fact that more people read (yes, there is a price to pay), work more with computers, watch TV, go to school (!), etc., all actions straining the eyes. In _Gattaca_, however, preselected people are never short-sighted (or have other eye problems) although they work a lot with computers. Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:24:30 -0800 From: Susan Palwick > On the one hand, the film is very much about marginality and about the > humanity (and ability) of people considered "inferior;" but on the > other hand, it takes a pretty dark view of the idea of reproductive > choice as an expression of elitism, of the entire idea of "wanted" > children versus "unwanted" children. ... The film says, simultaneously, > that everyone deserves choice (in career, in relationship) and that > "choosing" the kind of child you'll have is fundamentally an expression > of spiritual impoverishment. ... Am I incorrect in reading this > film as a thoughtful and beautifully produced argument against > abortion? I suppose Susan thought of foetueses aborted because they would have a handicap if born. I do not think the movie is an argument against abortion as IMHO the movie is not so focussed on choice. I think it is more on whether a person's capabilites can be completely predicted from its genes. At the birth of the hero the nurse rattles down the probabilites of his potential health problems (the percentages are all in the 80-90ties). But somehow that society has forgotten that a probability does not mean that a certain event will take place. Furthermore, the society does not see that the character also influences the performance. However, the movie does not question that the performance is important for certain choices one has e.g. to get a certain job (to avoid any misunderstandings, I do not question it either but I am often bothered how performance is stressed in (US-American?) (SF but not only) movies, TV series, etc., e.g. Star Trek NG where every officer is always the best as if average people could not contribute anything or in Nancy Kress Sleeper novel (what's the title?), somehow for me that is too strong). AnnyMiddon pointed out in April this year that besides the Uma Thurman character and the mother all (speaking) roles are men. The whole hierarchy is male. Women are shown in several scenes working parallelly with the men but obviously it did not occur to the film makers that in an gender-egalitarian society, which from my POV they thought they presented, women would show up at at least some pivoting points of the story. What I only realised when I thought about the movie yesterday is that I cannot remember one black or hispanic or ... person in the whole movie. Everybody was white (I mean Northern European 'white'). Have I overlooked a non-white person in the movie? Perhaps there was a reason given in the movie for the omission, but if, then I missed it. Then the aesthetics (outfit and scenery) of the movie. Everything and everyone - besides the natural born - is stylishly beautiful. It reminded me of Leni Riefenstahl (I've never seen any of her movies, but I know some pictures), i.e. the Nazi aesthetic. I suppose that was done on purpose. It fits the ideology the people have in the movie. The natural born are not so appealing, they look 'natural'. Of course, they do not have the money to spend on clothings, etc. and they do manual work. Several times in the movie the picture of the hero before the transformation is shown and compared to his appearance after it to show that the 'beauty' is not in-born but created by external means. Any comments? Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:01:27 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Gattaca -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Was it a flop in other countries? Did nobody see it? Do you think it not worth it? I watched it about a week ago. It was well acted, with beautiful design and cinemetography, but the constant repetition of the "this is a planned society and only a tiny bit of tissue can give us enough DNA to find out all your secrets" theme got boring after awhile. Yeah, we already understood that part, Mr. Director, in fact, we understood it the first of the 20 or so times you pointed it out, now let's move the plot along. I got so bored I didn't watch the end. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:40:23 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Gattaca -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Debra Euler wrote: > I got so bored I didn't watch the end. > You really missed something. A stunning end. And it was so refreshing to see a film that did not depend on special effects, and that was about _relationships_ rather than non-stop action. How could you have been bored?! :-) Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:52:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Overpopulation sf? -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The book _Logan's Run_, by William F. Nolan and George Clayton Johnson, was published by Dial in 1967. The film was made in 1976. The TV series in 1978-79, I believe. >>> Jo Ann Rangel 07/25 2:46 am >>> Doh, you are right sorry...when I saw the Logan's Run suggestion it hit me what the poster was asking for...and, I always wanted to read the book version of that film I saw the movie first on television when I was a teenager and I remember being very absorbed into the plot...does anyone know if the story was a film first or a book first? Jo Ann At 06:23 PM 7/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > >(snip) >> for a similar view I read I think it was Yarbro's novel where this young >> girl and an older man trek across the state to find a place called >> sanctuary while bands of criminals try to physically control the areas >> they keep under surveilance...forgot the title of that one, and, the >> romance portrayed in it took away the essence of the story for me, was >> seeing it as a survival epic more than anything where a romance could >> bloom under such dystopian conditions, perhaps this was to show hope for >> mankind in this environment...shrug... > >This sounds like *False Dawn*. It's more of a post-apocalyptic wasteland >type novel than one about overpopulation. > >> Jo Ann > >Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:06:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Anthea wrote: > You seem to specialize in remarks which appear - I could be > mistaken - designed to insult any one who disagrees with you. > > Debate keeps the movement healthy and vital. Your attitude - > which is all to common - simply plays into the hands of our male > critics and does untold harm by driving ordinary women out of the > feminist movement. Thanks for giving me so much implied power as to be able to "drive ordinary women out of feminist movement". Gee, makes me feel so important. Who are "ordinary women", anyway? And when did they elect you their representative, if I might ask? There is not way disagreement between women "plays to the hands of male critics". Or does "untold harm". You sound like the Big Brother, complete with "playing on the hand of the enemy", "ordinary people", and the whole enchilada. What you expect us to do, march in step and think "all as one"? About the attitude, Anthea, you won't be the person to tell me that. You know what they say about the straw in another's eye? By the way, what I asked you was a simple question. You spent so much time and effort defending Russ's critics' point of view -- it's only natural to inquire whether you share it. The simple answer to that would be "No". Your reaction, on the other hand, makes it look like the question hit home. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:37:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: book stores In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > Found a wonderful new (to me) bookstore here in eastern massachusetts with an > entire wall of used paperback sff... got some great things... but noted no > Russ and no Elgin. > > My suspicion is that people who buy those two writers may hang on to the books > and not recycle them. > > best > phoebe > This is probably true, although I did find a remaindered copy of Russ's The Two of Them at Diversicon this weekend and promptly snapped it up. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Gattaca -Reply In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Edward James wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Debra Euler wrote: > > > I got so bored I didn't watch the end. > > > > > You really missed something. A stunning end. And it was so refreshing to > see a film that did not depend on special effects, and that was about > _relationships_ rather than non-stop action. How could you have been > bored?! :-) > > > Edward James > Well, yes, the ending was good, except for the part about them all boarding the spaceship while still wearing their business suits! Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:51:13 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: FW: [*FSFFU*] Book stores & Elgin &Anthony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hold on. Time out. Marina: I understand that you may have meant your question to Athena innocently. What it looks like in black and white, though, is that Athena made an observation about books that she called racist and sexist, and you asked if maybe she found them clear and understandable because she agreed with them. That could be seen as inflammitory. You certainly don't have to agree with a viewpoint for something written about that viewpoint to be "clear and understandable", do you? Language and logical arguments go a long way toward understandability, without necessitating agreement. At least that's been my experience. Athena: I understand how hurtful it can be to feel wrongly accused, but making general statements like "you seem to specialize in remarks which appear designed to insult anyone who disagrees with you" is not conducive to discussion, or to making Marina's remarks any less insulting to you. I've found most of Marina's postings to be intelligent and thoughtful, myself. She's young, but she's been through a lot; that gives her an interesting perspective. If either of you feels this needs to continue, please take the personal attacks out of it. Thanks! -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Marina [mailto:my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 10:06 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Book stores & Elgin &Anthony On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Anthea wrote: > You seem to specialize in remarks which appear - I could be > mistaken - designed to insult any one who disagrees with you. > > Debate keeps the movement healthy and vital. Your attitude - > which is all to common - simply plays into the hands of our male > critics and does untold harm by driving ordinary women out of the > feminist movement. Thanks for giving me so much implied power as to be able to "drive ordinary women out of feminist movement". Gee, makes me feel so important. Who are "ordinary women", anyway? And when did they elect you their representative, if I might ask? There is not way disagreement between women "plays to the hands of male critics". Or does "untold harm". You sound like the Big Brother, complete with "playing on the hand of the enemy", "ordinary people", and the whole enchilada. What you expect us to do, march in step and think "all as one"? About the attitude, Anthea, you won't be the person to tell me that. You know what they say about the straw in another's eye? By the way, what I asked you was a simple question. You spent so much time and effort defending Russ's critics' point of view -- it's only natural to inquire whether you share it. The simple answer to that would be "No". Your reaction, on the other hand, makes it look like the question hit home. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:12:25 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Re: Book stores & Elgin &Anthony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 28 Jul 98, at 12:06, Marina wrote: > Thanks for giving me so much implied power as to be able to "drive [snip] The place for this type of ad hominem comment is off-list. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:12:25 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Subject: Catherine Asaro's SF & Wilson' "Darwinia" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've just finish reading Catherine Asaro's "The Last Hawk" and enjoyed it enormously. Does any one know what the other works in the "Skolian Empire" universe are? The only names I can find are "Pimary Inversion" and "Catch the lightning" and it seems unlikely that there could only be 3. I'd particularly like the name of the first few books in the series. Has anyone read Wilson's "Darwinia"? I've just had an email about it from a friend (of dubious taste) who recommends it highly. I'd be grateful for any info (preferably including a suggestion of which order the Asaro books should be read in) as soon as possible because I have to get my order off to the US on Thursday morning (SA Time). I know the Wilson book is off-topic, but this is the only SF list I'm on and I don't like to waste the transport space if the book is no good or otherwise offensive. AJ ----------------------------------------- gaudit@global.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: CRONES page site access problems with AOL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, help! Are you still having trouble getting in from AOL? I will bitch to Earthlink about it if we know that you did get in and now you cannot. I know they are doing tons of telecomm refits, so perhaps they have hosed something up. please let me know when you get a minute. thanks much. donna -----Original Message----- From: Todd Mason To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] CRONES page site access problems with AOL >Oddly enough, I had no problem accessing through Eh, Oh Hell on the first >night it was up. But definitely the second. >--Todd Mason. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:45:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Re: Gattaca -Reply In-Reply-To: (message from Michael Marc Levy on Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:39:16 -0500) Mike Levy commented: >Well, yes, the ending was good, except for the part about them all >boarding the spaceship while still wearing their business suits! Part of what I liked best about GATTACA was the stylization of the movie. This was not a movie about special effects or neato gadgets, this was a science fiction movie about ideas. The business suits struck me as part of this stylization, symbolizing the inner conformity. E. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:29:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Website for FSFFU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, The current website where the Feminist Sci-Fi bibliographies are at is http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/ My apologies for not getting back with this sooner, I had deleted a bunch of emails and lost the one that was asking for the bibliography site... 8) Jo Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Big Gulp....CRONES Comments: To: Todd Mason , Sharon Anderson , Robin Reid , Melnjo , Maryelizabeth Hart , Marge Tillman , lilith , lquilter@igc.apc.org, Kathleen M Friello , Katharine Woods , Jessie Stickgold-Sarah , Ines Lassnig , Catherine Asaro , Anthea , AnnyMiddon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello CRONES and FSFFUers, I do apologize for problems with accessing the CRONES site. It was working for all and sundry when I left. Sigh. I do know for certain that Earthlink has been doing some telecomm restructuring (as I noted to Todd). Perhaps a bungle there. I will investigate promptly. I have saved every post of list members who have had difficulties. I will respond here and to each privately on potential resolutions. Did Liliths last suggestion work? To go directly to the forum address? Someone please let me know private post. (Dont want to clutter the list). Here is the address again: http://207.244.122.48/discussion.cgi?id=20889 I have taken Ms. Dawleys comment that she is waiting for the discussion to begin as a reasonable hint. I will post a kick off discussion article to the Forum within the next 24 hours. It will, I hope, ignite responses and new articles. (Thanks to those who have already taken the plunge) Though the discussion of Russ' work ongoing on the list all weekend was the best advertising this listrix could have hoped for. Thanks to all. Again, anyone having trouble obtaining a copy of the book, let me know. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:47:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: book stores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suspect you're right. Maybe it says something very positive about an author if her (or his) work does NOT show up in used bookstores. A chunk of history I wish I could change is the wartime salvage drives for paper: having a fondness for various 18th & 19th century fiction, I mourn the non-classics which should have been littering the bookstores for pennies when I wanted them! But I did get a copy of "How He Won Her". Sorry, I guess this is off topic--this is not SF, though it has fascinating aspects for a late 20th century feminist! On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:47:57 EDT Phoebe Wray writes: >Found a wonderful new (to me) bookstore here in eastern massachusetts >with an >entire wall of used paperback sff... got some great things... but >noted no >Russ and no Elgin. > >My suspicion is that people who buy those two writers may hang on to >the books >and not recycle them. > >best >phoebe > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:57:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Catherine Asaro's SF In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anthea, Catherine posted the below in response to a similar question from me just two days ago.: |HAWK has no dependence on the first two books. It concerns a |different character and planet than the other two. In fact, it actually |starts the earliest of the three books. So it is completely |stand-alone. |Tor reprinted PRIMARY INVERSION, so it should be available, or if the |bookstore is sold out, they should have no problem reorderingit. As far |as I know, CATCH THE LIGHTNING is still available. At 08:12 PM 7/28/98 +0200, you wrote: >I've just finish reading Catherine Asaro's "The Last Hawk" and >enjoyed it enormously. Does any one know what the other works in >the "Skolian Empire" universe are? The only names I can find are >"Pimary Inversion" and "Catch the lightning" and it seems unlikely >that there could only be 3. I'd particularly like the name of the first >few books in the series. > Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:16:36 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Gattaca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Petra - I saw the movie on new-release video in recent months in Australia. My teenage children did not like it as much as _Contact_ - probably because it concentrated on ideas rather than action or fast-moving plot. I was a little bored by it, by its theme - as such dystopian visions seem to be have done before. Indeed, it reminded me of a 1930's B&W film, (I believe was made in Germany) - and unfortunately, I cannot remember the title - all I remember is vague scenes of dehumanised conformity of people being factory fodder, cannon fodder and unrecognisable all-sorts fodder for pumping out a mockery of human existence, under the eyes of "powers-that-be" smiling at the world they have created. No waste, super-efficiency etc similar to 1984 or Brave New World. The second reason it bored me a little was the portrayal of the 'hero' and his ultimate success. It's a common theme in American movies, and may reflect their culture more than others, which is the cult of the individual over the community. A more Marxist philosophy would have the hero acting on behalf of the whole class of 'natural-borns' and leading them to revolution and throwing over the society. With an individual achieving success, the status-quo remains the same, and is not attacked in any way - the "ruling-class" has just learned a lesson that one or two or three of the proletariat should be considered for being given access to the ruling-class's privileges. A bit like saying that some of the poor kids from the slums in today's society, should be given scholarships for college education. The third reason it bored me a little, was the science - as a geneticist, I found the science rather limited in its recognition of the complexity of the human genome. But thats a minor criticism, and is found in many popular sci-fi stories, where they reduce the science to its most simplistic, remove all the logic inconsistencies, resourcing difficulties etc, for the sake of the story-line. To me, _Gattaca_ was celebrating a de-humanising of existence, by 'defining' people by their genes. Making such definitions for classifying people - de-humanises them and turns them all into artificially constructed 'commodities' - where we value human life only by placing a value on their 'commodity' status. Having your baby engineered, or 'enhanced' - is like upgrading your car, or computer, or washing-machine, into a better model. On the theme of gender, _Gattaca_ portrayed a 'masculine' society, with 'masculine' value-systems. The triumph of 'masculine' predictable, efficient, Science over 'feminine', wild, unpredictable, Nature etc. The message was to me : You too, can overcome the disability of your birth, or your gender, or your race, or your social-class, or genetic 'wildness', by adopting the values of the ruling society. As long as not too many of you do it, and as long as you dont threaten the status-quo once inside:)) However, the sub-plot involving the conflict between the hero and his brother in _Gattaca_ I found interesting. What significance, if any - was the vehicle of the competition between the 'natural-born' man, and his 'engineered' younger brother? The hero seemed to *resolve* some inner conflict after he saved his brother's life. Anybody on the list have any thoughts? Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:19:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Gattaca -Reply In-Reply-To: <199807281845.OAA10704@apocalypse.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, ME Hunter wrote: > Mike Levy commented: > > >Well, yes, the ending was good, except for the part about them all > >boarding the spaceship while still wearing their business suits! > > Part of what I liked best about GATTACA was the stylization of the > movie. This was not a movie about special effects or neato gadgets, this was > a science fiction movie about ideas. The business suits struck me as part of > this stylization, symbolizing the inner conformity. > > E. > Yes, the stylization was good throughout the movie. At times there was even a sort of 1930s German Expressionism feel to the sets and clothes, even the acting style. I'm sure that having the characters continue to wear the same business uniforms on the ship was quite intentional, but I still like a bit of realism with my symbolism and the business with the suits at the end simply knocked me out of the film. I would have prefered a brief scene, perhaps in the background as our hero passes his last test before boarding the ship, in which they all changed out of the business suits into identical coveralls, something like the effect at the end of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, perhaps. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:39:45 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: book stores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Phoebe, I''m in eastern Mass. also--so where's this great new bookstore? Come on, be generous and share, please!!!!! Tanya