File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9809A" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:00:35 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Kirschling Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine discussion Content-Type: text/plain a blue moon and i must delurk and comment on this complex and fascinating book. (there will probably be spoilers herein.) >How soon did you figure out the different voices didn't necessarily come >from different characters? i think i knew the characters were going to be closely linked when the old woman in the cage learned that the slave girl was to be sold to the dark isles and warned her: "Don't fuck the old woman!...Don't fuck the regent. Don't let anybody in...I know, I saw in the mirror. I saw through the wall. I know what they will do to you. To me, I mean. You are me, aren't you?" then there is the book the old woman gave her "to send to her daughter" and the writing therein, which she suddenly understood. these things suggested a story of amnesia, mistaken identity, circular or perhaps parallel timelines. essa's search for her mother, ea's escape from her grandmother...these were further "clues". when the slave suddenly recovered her memory, becoming both essa the trader and the heir to the throne, it was a bit of a shock to me and i began to pay much closer attention. i think that it took this turn of events, as well as essa's encounter with... >What was the purpose of including the Carrier in this story? Didn't you >just love the image of the bickering characters on her breasts? ...the carrier and her voices/faces from the dead, to make the interbraided lives and stories distinct, and to make their relationships to each other clear. the carrier was such a strikingly powerful and imaginative character. as a visual artist and amateur maskmaker i found the image of the faces appearing on her body and speaking fascinating. part of me wanted her to reappear in one plotline or another, while part of me thought that she was incongruous; as the only true "fantasy" character, she could have wandered in from another book or another dimension. perhaps the same dimension as... >What did you think of the very ending chapter, "The new wood"? ...the last chapter. i read this hurriedly as the train was reaching my stop, and i will have to reexamine it, but it frustrated me. it seemed to be a deliberate mystification, re-blurring something that had been made clear. perhaps the "forward to the future" ending with essa's daughter and the trader embarking on a new quest would have been too conventional in such a non-linear narrative, BUT this chapter was completely different in tone, and it may be just me, but it didn't belong there. & who was the old man? the regent? anyway, more than enough said. good evening. karen k. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:24:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine, another question -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (I am a lurker, only drawn out of the woodwork because I was so amazed by Black Wine, although I have LOST MY COPY, which has spoiled my week) I always thought that "climb the remarkable mountains" had to do with the trade restrictions/confusion that seemed to be going on...it seemed as though climbing the remarkable mountains was if not exactly forbidden then discouraged. (Bear in mind that my copy--hardback, too--is GONE) I thought it had something to do with the Black Ships. More generally, I adored the first two thirds or so of the book, but I felt like after the daughter realized her identity the plotting fell apart...I felt that the overthrow of the Regent and collapse of the revolution into (semi) corruption happened too fast. I've been trying to puzzle out the purpose of the book...philosophically it seems somewhat incoherent--revolution doesn't seem to work, although the warm fuzzy folks up in the mountains live in a state of individualist anarchy..what happens to the warm fuzzy folks when the horrible people from down below really do climb the remarkable mountains? I suppose one of the book's central questions is how to survive--as individuals or as a society--the corrupt use of power. How to survive abuse in childhood, how to survive slavery, how to survive the excesses of the state. Does Dorsey really think that recovery is possible? I was really delighted by the remarkable mountains, by the way...I went out to the Rockies for the first time last month and while in Montana I found what a sort of pale shadow of my idea of the remarkable mountains. Also, I have read Doris Lessing's Shikasta novels; I'm a little uneasy with them, since they seem to reflect Lessing's growing disbelief in the reliability of free will and human agency. ( I really really like Lessing even though I emphatically do not agree with the ideas she's put forth in her recent books--the Good Terrorist and so on. Also, has anyone read the Marthat Quest books? What is up with the last one? I just don't understand the stylistic change and the shift into science fiction...somehow I didn't really like it as much; it was dark in an entirely different way from the others in the series.) Despite the fact that this post seems to be all criticism, I think Black Wine is a wonderful and promising book....now where's MY COPY?!? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:12:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine discussion begins In-Reply-To: <19980831164110176.AAB200@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I really liked the book, even though I disagree with the main points it's making. The ideas presented in the Black Wine are pretty much against everything I believe in, and the main characters at times are really irritating, and yet, I was not able to put the book down till I read it all. What I really liked was the fact that it had so many female characters -- lots and lots of them. What I did not like that much was the fact that there was not even one decent male character to speak of. Even the regent who is mentioned a lot does not have any personality traits other than representing universal evil. Speaking of such, it did not seem believable to me that the strong woman like Ea was so damn scared of the guy. What was the reason for that? He did not seem to have any will power or intelligence that would made him dangerous in any way outside the power that he did not even have while she was away. And if he did try to hurt her, why could not she just kill him, as self-defense? She obviously was not some sissy-girl afraid of blood, she spent considerable time travelling and living an independent life, so what was so scary about this one jerk? She could have saved do many people from further suffering. Including her own family members. I do realize that the two main ideas of the Black Wine are: a) non-violence; and b) the socialist concept of the evil nature of any kind of individual power. The first one explains why the main characters were beating around the bush the whole book instead of doing something to solve their problems. The second explains why Ea and then her daughter spent most of their lives running and hiding hoping that someone else takes care of the problems instead of using their position as monarchs to help their people. The fact that Ea had seen so much abuse certainly accounts for her emotional problems that would explain her making so little sense. However, Essa did not have this excuse for being dysfunctional. At the same time, even after she regained her memory and figured things out, all Essa did was writing the books. Then she give them as a weapon to someone else to take care of the situation in the country, and when they made things worse, she just took off back into the safety of the nice peaceful outside world leaving her nation to deal with the consequences of what she had started. This part just did not make sense to me. If she was so socially concerned about the oppressed masses, how could she just walk out after starting all that mess? And if she was an individualist who put her own interests before others, then why abdicate the trone and start all that revolutionary crap? And why she never went to see her daughter? IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with people who abandon their children, men or women alike. If you don't want them -- you should not have them. But if you do, you cannot just leave them. The same thing with Ea -- it did not look to me like she ran off for the sake of her daughter. I think, she just got bored in that nice little heaven, so she simply left with no concern about the feelings of those left behind. In any case. This is a very well written, beautiful book. It is as feminist as it could only get. I just wish I could agree with something written there, but it just does not work, no matter how much I try. It's probably the most interesting irritating book I ever read. By the way, I also found it kind of dystopian. It presents five societies: the world of trade with its animosity between sailors and merchants and occasional social unrest; the extra-nice (and completely unbelievable) "communal" world of The Range, full of happy sharing people not giving a damn about the less fortunate ones in the world; the free-spirited and extremely racist world of sailors; the oppressive slave-holding kingdom of the Dark Isles; and the even more primitive, "obligation equals slavery" tribal world of the Southern continent. There is also a glimpse of the Mihn's world, but of that one nothing is known except that they have one name for everyone. IMHO, this makes today's world seem almost perfert. If this is the future, I'm glad I'm not living in it. That's what they call a "dystopia", isn't it? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:27:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: BDG: Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I too had a wonderful time reading this book. I normally read a good book in an evening, but I took a week on this one to savor it. (I wonder if someone on this list will hate it for the same things that others of us liked...) Different voices: for me the first realization wasn't the fact that one character might have multiple voices, but rather that all the characters/voices were telling parts of the same story. Then it was a fairly simple puzzle to figure out who was who. So when it was mentioned that Essa (in chapter two) had an abacus, I guessed that she was the waif from chapter one; when Essa learned (chapter four) that her mother's face was on the coins of a country, I guessed the mother was the traveller from chapter three. Having gotten that far it was an easy step to thinking the mother was the old woman from the beginning (remember, she said "I know" when Essa mentioned the abacus). Did other people take longer? It felt a little like I wasn't supposed to have made the connection so soon. It seemed that the author was playing with a lot of very powerful and traditional images in this book. The student riot, the government/popular division of "here" and "there" (and you don't go "there"), fleeing on the first/last/only ship out of port (repeatedly), the trend for revolutions to become merely the exchange of masters (Essa's word). Falling and hitting your head and losing your memory, the slave who becomes a princess, the search across the world for your past, and of course the fact that when you finish your quest, what you find isn't really what you wanted... I think Jane Franklin (JFrankln@famprac.umn.edu) had it right when she said this book was about (in part) surviving the corrupt use of power. I didn't see the message as being that recovery was impossible, though -- if you count down through the generations, the leap between each one is astounding. So each person made it through the terrible abuses of her life to do better by her daughter. I suppose there's a sudden break between "the old woman" and her daughter, which isn't well explained and doesn't fit into this idea. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:54:47 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What I liked best? It pushes the form! best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:20:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine discussion begins In-Reply-To: <19980831164110176.AAB200@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > How soon did you figure out the different voices didn't necessarily come > from different characters? I figured this out before I could say which > were the same. The abacus. They all had it, one from her mother, one from her grandmother. The fact that the mad woman grew up at the Dark Isles. At first, I thought that there were three women, though. I thought that the waif was Essa's daughter. But as soon as Ea's diary mentioned her going towards The Range, and Essa headed looking for her mother, it all fell in place. > What was the purpose of including the Carrier in this story? Didn't you > just love the image of the bickering characters on her breasts? The Carrier seemed to restore the connection between the stories and meant to spell out the relation of Ea, Egha, and Essa to those who would not have figured it out by then. She also was Essa's "love interest" meant to show her what she had put her sailor spouses through when she left them. The Carrier's charecter did not seem to be developed too deeply but it was still very powerful. > Why did Ea disappear again near the end, just wandering off? Was she just > no longer needed? The end seems rather blurry in general. I think the story starts to kind of deteriorate sometime after the middle. Probably, at the point when Essa writes her books. After that, it seems that the author did not know what to do with the characters anymore. Ea seemed to dissappear mainly because there was no way to incorporate her into the futher development of the story. Maybe her getting some peace would make it too "happy-endy" for the book's moral. > > What did you think of the very ending chapter, "The new wood"? Well, the best idea I can could come up with that Essa had a dream of seeing her mother finally being happy in some other world. Despite the evil cousin -- the regent that somehow stood on her way to that throughout her life. The "new wood" is something that symbolized a new world that Ea, Essa, and Elta were on their way to discover (gosh, now I sound like my high school literature teacher -- the "symbolism"!). Remember there was this "Mother, Cloud, and New Wood" fortune that kept repeating itself for each of them? It seemed like they were going somewhere with it but did not quite reach it. IMHO, this book was written with a sequel in mind. Do you know if there was one? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:00:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine, another question -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I got very frustrated with the characters. Essa particularly. I wanted her to move -- do something about the problems. As someone else noted (sorry can't find the reference) -- why was she so afraid? And the ending left me unmoved. Some sections, the perilous shipboard scenes etc were really entrancing, but then I would have to stop reading for some outside reason. When I came back I found it hard to remember what was going on. But, as I noted in an earlier post. She is pushing the form. Applause for that. best wishes, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:03:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Black Wine Wow, what a novel. Just as Alien Influence had all variety of aliens and alien atmospheres, Black Wine had all varieties of gender relationships, family bonds, procreation patterns, sexual expression, and, alas, torture. The only thing that made it possible for me to read through the descriptions of physical abuse was that the characters kept describing the circumstances as "strange" rather than all the other horrific adjectives that might have been used. To be matter of fact in your description of being chained beneath your dying partner and writing a journal in her blood exemplifies the strangely emotionless quality of the prose. One of the reviews states that the novel showed you scenes through the characters eyes, not explaining what they take for granted in their daily lives. That style made this book so difficult to read yet so rewarding as mysteries were gradually or suddenly solved. I was amazed that Ea just walked away, I thought for sure she would turn up later, when Essa was secure at home; which shows just how tied some of us are to a good old fashioned American happy ending. This book was not about solving mysteries, it was about presenting them, presenting possibilities and trusting the reader to write part of the story herself. When I first met all the trader's cats Minh, Minh, Minh, Minh, Minh I thought that was a clever little touch. I didn't realize that the book would so thoroughly question the value of nouns, forms of communication, the value of music, the value of individuality, the meanings and duties of motherhood, the possibility of just government, the value of life itself. This is one of the books you could take with you if stranded for 10 years on a desert island and find something new at every reading. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:21:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: aileen familara Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com:80) Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Hello! I've been lurking too long on this list but I haven't really been able to participate much because I live in the Philippines and I can't immediately get hold of the books that do get discussed. However, I have read "Black Wine" and I found it very rich in themes, issues and characterization. While there are many motifs that run through the story, such as the quest motif, the generational parallels and divergence, the handling of fantasy and sci-fi elements to make a believable and very enjoyable story story, I did find something I could really sink my teeth into. I guess it was the language ability in all the three characters which struck me. It is not just their facility in languages but the fact that they are articulate, and that they have made a point to pass it on, or revive it. It seems that expression is a survival trait, and the act or process of storytelling a method of bridging many gaps. I also found the silent slave language an interesting device, both metaphor and means for rebellion. Aileen Familara University of the Philippines Diliman, Quezon City Philippines Now MailCity offers forwarding so you can check your MailCity messages and other e-mail all in one place. Go to http://www.mailcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:31:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Fwd: Science Fiction Culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This might be of interest to some on this list. >From: Camille Bacon-Smith >Subject: Science Fiction Culture > >Science Fiction Culture, my book about the culture of fandom, pros, and >publishing, primarily in the United STates, with special emphasis on the >East Coast, is going to the editor Thursday, and she's asked me to give >her suggestions about readers. > >This is an academic book, but it is ethnography--the antrhopological >study of the publishing and consumer cultures of science fiction. It is >not culture studies, technically, because it does not use Marxism, and >because theory is derived from empirical evidence, rather than the other >way around. > >If you'd like to be a reader and you: > >1) Are at least an associate professor at a recognized institution of >higher learning, and > >2) Have a passing understanding of anthropological and/or sociological >approaches to the study of culture production and audience response, >(e.g. ENTERPRISING WOMEN is the same kind of study, but excluded the >television producers) and > >3) Have a general knowledge of/appreciation for fantasy and science >fiction, (and preferably also horror) and > > you are still interested, Please contact me at camille@voicenet.com. > >Camille Bacon-Smith > >PS: The first restriction is the publisher's not mine. From past >experience we have noticed that literary scholars aren't very interested >in this kind of work. While it is about literary people, it is not, >really, about the literature. > athena@geocities.com ------------------------------------- * You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:13:27 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Fwd: Science Fiction Culture In-Reply-To: <199809021426.KAA03722@pop.snet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, jenn mottram wrote: > >study of the publishing and consumer cultures of science fiction. It is > >not culture studies, technically, because it does not use Marxism, and > >because theory is derived from empirical evidence, rather than the other > >way around. > > Are you telling me that "Culture Studies" HAS TO BE MARXIST?!?!?!?!> Or is it a technical term in Marxist theology? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:17:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: OT: INsight on Heinlein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There was an earlier wave of feminism than our own, circa 1890-1920. Its issues were not ours, and in some cases often opposed to ours, since it arose in reaction to a Victorian paradigm. An article in THE HEINLEIN JOURNAL (which is critical and scholarly, not adulatory) pointed out that if you compare Heinlein's view of women with the 1890-1920 brand of feminism, then he was an enthusiastic feminist .... *as defined a hundred years ago.* Which makes sense considering he was born in the early 1900s. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:55:00 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: OT: INsight on Heinlein Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/98 3:20:27 PM, Pat Matthews wrote: << There was an earlier wave of feminism than our own, circa 1890-1920. Its issues were not ours, and in some cases often opposed to ours, since it arose in reaction to a Victorian paradigm. An article in THE HEINLEIN JOURNAL (which is critical and scholarly, not adulatory) pointed out that if you compare Heinlein's view of women with the 1890-1920 brand of feminism, then he was an enthusiastic feminist .... *as defined a hundred years ago.* Which makes sense considering he was born in the early 1900s. >> An interesting point. There was an even earlier feminist movement at the end of the 17th century... Seems you can't keep good women down. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:55:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Fwd: Science Fiction Culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/98 3:37:57 PM, Pat Matthews wrote: << Are you telling me that "Culture Studies" HAS TO BE MARXIST?!?!?!?!>>> Second the question! Best phoebe zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Fwd: Re: [*FSFFU*] Fwd: Science Fiction Culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (holding hands helplessly in the air) I'm just the messenger! Don't shoot! The whole message was a bit obscure; many sections should have been clearer. If you email the submitter directly (Camille Bacon-Smith ), she could answer your questions, though I assume they were rhetorical in nature anyhow. Jenn >At 09:13 AM 9/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >>> >study of the publishing and consumer cultures of science fiction. It is >>> >not culture studies, technically, because it does not use Marxism, and >>> >because theory is derived from empirical evidence, rather than the other >>> >way around. >>> > >> Are you telling me that "Culture Studies" HAS TO BE >>MARXIST?!?!?!?!> >> Or is it a technical term in Marxist theology? >> >>Patricia (Pat) Mathews >>mathews@unm.edu >> athena@geocities.com ------------------------------------- * You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:43:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Fwd: Science Fiction Culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would that be Harpo or Groucho? On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:55:50 EDT Phoebe Wray writes: >In a message dated 9/2/98 3:37:57 PM, Pat Matthews wrote: > ><< Are you telling me that "Culture Studies" HAS TO BE >MARXIST?!?!?!?!>>> > >Second the question! > >Best >phoebe >zozie@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:07:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Black Wine The last chapter New Wood was different from the rest of the book, almost like a short story that had been tacked on. When I read it though I got the idea that it was a description of Essa's death. She was journeying toward death accompanied by both the Carrier of Spirits as a positive representation of death and the old man who represented a fearful view of death. The old man told her "You will find your mother...where she went away from you into the future." Then he says "Here you will die...He was trying so clumsily to manipulate her that she laughed out loud at it." The Carrier was now seen as an old woman because Essa was now seeing things in their true form, the Carrier was old. She broke that thin connection that had been formed between herself and Essa "she pulled the string away, and handed her the heart at the end of it. The heart of the world, she thought, waiting for me." She broke that thin connection between herself and Essa because they no longer needed the connection, she was in her heart. It reminded me of the finale of All That Jazz in which the Bob Fosse character is being pulled rapturously toward the beautiful white Jessica Lange angel of death, though instead of being pulled toward the Carrier she was being urged through the door into the New Wood, the only place she could know joy at last because the struggle was over, "It was the rush of joy she felt which woke her fully up." She was awakened in death. Or at least that's how it felt to me. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: kamholse@fuse.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sally Kamholtz Subject: Re: Nalo Hopkinson, _Brown Girl in the Ring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes--this is a wonderful book. I took it with me on vacation along with Tananarive Due's newest which resonated wonderfully with Butler's work. Sally ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:28:57 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 1 Sep 1998 to 2 Sep 1998 Content-Type: text/plain Since I am not a professor, I guess I don't get a reading copy... sounds interesting, though: the shelf of academic books about SF that get it right is a short one. I wonder if Ms. Bacon-Smith is herself a fan... There are so many pitfalls for the unanointed. In fact, from what I have heard of Tom Disch's new book (_The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of_), even he gets big parts of it wrong, and he's been an insider for longer than I've been alive... Dan Krashin ObFemSF: If I recall correctly, there's a bit in one of Joanna Russ' novels (On Strike Against God?) where she is hanging out with Damon Knight and Kate Wilhelm, and a young male SF writer comes out to them. It sounded autobiographical: does any Russ scholar out there know who the writer was? >Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:31:37 -0400 >From: jenn mottram >Subject: Fwd: Science Fiction Culture > >This might be of interest to some on this list. > >>From: Camille Bacon-Smith >>Subject: Science Fiction Culture >> >>Science Fiction Culture, my book about the culture of fandom, pros, and >>publishing, primarily in the United STates, with special emphasis on the >>East Coast, is going to the editor Thursday, and she's asked me to give >>her suggestions about readers. >> >>This is an academic book, but it is ethnography--the antrhopological >>study of the publishing and consumer cultures of science fiction. It is >>not culture studies, technically, because it does not use Marxism, and >>because theory is derived from empirical evidence, rather than the other >>way around. >> >>If you'd like to be a reader and you: >> >>1) Are at least an associate professor at a recognized institution of >>higher learning, and >> >>2) Have a passing understanding of anthropological and/or sociological >>approaches to the study of culture production and audience response, >>(e.g. ENTERPRISING WOMEN is the same kind of study, but excluded the >>television producers) and >> >>3) Have a general knowledge of/appreciation for fantasy and science >>fiction, (and preferably also horror) and >> >> you are still interested, Please contact me at camille@voicenet.com. >> >>Camille Bacon-Smith >> >>PS: The first restriction is the publisher's not mine. From past >>experience we have noticed that literary scholars aren't very interested >>in this kind of work. While it is about literary people, it is not, >>really, about the literature. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:17:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: N Clowder Subject: BDG: Black Wine is tough going for me Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am struggling to get through Black Wine. I'm not quite half way through. I like the characters, I admire the writing, the tone is very fine...I think my problem is that my feeble brain is having a hard time holding the three strands of the story together. Before the discussion started and I read the spoilers telling me who was who, I was consumed with the puzzle of the relationship of the various characters - consumed (and eventually irritated) to the point of being distracted from some of the book's other positive qualities. (I confess, I'm not good at figuring out these kinds of things.) Anyway, my question to those of you who did put the pieces together and who enjoyed the book: WHY did Dorsey write it this way? What was gained by treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological fashion? Maybe I don't have the perspective to answer this for myself since I haven't been able to get through it yet. Thanks for your answers, Nell clowder@mail.utexas.edu Austin, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sidney Watson Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine is tough going for me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I've been lurking for awhile, and maybe I shouldn't try to answer this one, since I haven't quite finished reading the book yet. But it seemed to me that Dorsey was playing with the whole idea of identity and individuality. What makes us individuals? Our names? (Then what of the Minh?) Our experiences? (Is Essa the same as Fierce-frightened?) By not giving us the usual clues to identity, as readers we had to grapple with these issues more directly than we might have if the story had been constructed more conventionally. Sid N Clowder wrote: > I am struggling to get through Black Wine. I'm not quite half way through. I > like the characters, I admire the writing, the tone is very fine...I think > my problem is that my feeble brain is having a hard time holding the three > strands of the story together. Before the discussion started and I read the > spoilers telling me who was who, I was consumed with the puzzle of the > relationship of the various characters - consumed (and eventually irritated) > to the point of being distracted from some of the book's other positive > qualities. (I confess, I'm not good at figuring out these kinds of things.) > > Anyway, my question to those of you who did put the pieces together and who > enjoyed the book: WHY did Dorsey write it this way? What was gained by > treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting > it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological > fashion? Maybe I don't have the perspective to answer this for myself since > I haven't been able to get through it yet. > > Thanks for your answers, > Nell > > clowder@mail.utexas.edu > Austin, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:05:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Question of non-linear chronology in novels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nell asks: "What was gained by treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological fashion?" The question she asked was in reference to _Black Wine_, but of course it also refers to LOTS of other books, especially those loved to be taught by English teachers and often hated by students. Let me say right from the start that I love reading both some traditional narratives and some non-traditional or experimental narratives, and hate some of each. I don't buy into the theory that one form of literary expression is superior to another, and I believe that literary professors/academics are trained to privilege one form of expression (specifically the "harder" kind) over another. After all, if all literature was "easy" to read and understand, who'd need English teachers, except for grammar? (Very cynical satiric tone intended for last comment!) But why do writers do this...i.e. write relationships as mysteries, puzzles, move in non-linear, non-chronological fashion? After all, literary critics and scholars did not invent this style: it's been around for centuries. Don't believe me? Check out Laurence Sterne's _Tristram Shandy_! And don't assume that only the invention of the printing press led to the 'creation' of such literary forms. Check out transcriptions or even better attend a pow-wow and listen to American Indian storytellers. One form of narrative is probably dominant in mainstream genere fiction: third person narrative (meaning he/she/name, narrative voice not a character), with limited omniscience (meaning narrative voice can report on thoughts and feelings as well as actions and words of one or more characters; usually a mainstream genre novel has one point of view character), linear chronology (events in the plot are told in the order in which they happened, moving from earlier to later), and a "resolution" of some time. The plot often follows the classic pattern: exposition (explanation of background), rising action and complications, climax, falling action, and resolution ("they lived happily ever after" or some version"). The style also tends to be "transparent," meaning not calling attention to itself. When this narrative form is allied with a certain kind of realistic approach (story is set in contemporary period, in 'real' city, with recognizeable characters, no fanatastic elements, etc.), then most people probably are familiar with and find the piece quite accessible. Sometimes there's a first person narrative, a main character telling their own story to you the reader. A lot of traditional SF/F is told in this way. But there have always been writers who experiment... As a result of so many of these stories being read by people, I have students who get to the weird stuff I assign as SOME of our reading. They tell me how "unrealistic" and "weird" it is. But think about it: how do we experience life? As you go through the day, events do happen in a chronological fashion, but how many times do you remember/experience some form of past events? How well can you know people around you? We are all the main character/protagonist in our own story, the story we "tell" ourselves, but we are just secondary characters in others. For example, think of your friends who have relationships--or your coworkers--you see bits and pieces. Even your own relationships, in the beginning, are puzzles and ever changing. There's always different voicdes going on in your head! Think of the people you love who have died--do you love them any less? My grandparents died when I was in third grade--over thirty years ago--and my mother tells me she still talks to them. I would argue, and often do, that the reason popular fictions are often told in the traditional style (defined above) is the reason they are so popular and comforting! They are totally UNLIKE the confused mass of events we call "real life." They impose a totally artificial (and artificial isn't automatically bad--it's just created, by artifice) and comforting order on things. Some writers (and they've been out there for centuries if not millennia) write what is "realistic" literature, realistic meaning how we tend to experience life, not what is familiar or comforting. Often their stories present relationships and characters as a puzzle; foreshadowing is not always clearly indicated; the "ending" of the story is not always a closed ending which provides a resolution, sometimes it's messy and open=ended. We are trained in our culture to expect stories to be told in a certain chronological order, but that's not true in all cultures. Cultures with origin myths that do not have the same kind of Day of Creation, history which leads to Day of Armageddeon and destruction of the entire physical world often have narratives which spiral around more--are trained aesthetically to appreciate a different "chronology." But even within the mainstream Anglo European culture, there have been writers who experiment with the conventional patterns of plot and narrative, who present character in different ways. Are you always the same "character" day to day, even within the same day? Reading the "weird" stuff can be hard--many of these kind of stories and novels require multiple rereadings to make sense of it all. But, often, when the writers know their craft, multiple rereadings will reveal that the novel is not in fact chaos, but is structured around a different "kind" of order. There are repetitions and patterns, and often the chronology spirals rather than goes in a straight line. The works may be harder to read, but they can be very satisfying at times--just as the traditonal narratives may be satisfying at times too. And since I also teach creative writing, I can tell you that writing either form of story is darn hard! Until you've tried to write a novel, you just don't know how difficult it can be. Sorry for the length--hope this little lecture helps in some way! I do want to make it clear that I cannot say why any particular author chooses to tell the story in the way she does--these are ideas I've developed in teaching introduction to literature classes over the past few years, and reading a lot of "weird" novels. Let me know if you'd like to have me list some of my favorites. Some are SF/F, some are not. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:47:51 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: susan mcdermott Subject: Re: Question of non-linear chronology in novels Content-Type: text/plain Hey, Robin: Thanks for the lecture! I, for one, appreciate it. Am in the midst of research and drafting the outline for my own s-f novel and am glad to see my own issues about point of view and narrative addressed in your post to the list. I would be interested in your list of novels, esp. s-f. If no one else is, please send it to me at: susan_mcdermott@hotmail.com Thanks, Susan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Question of non-linear chronology in novels In-Reply-To: <199809071405.JAA18478@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nell asks: "What was gained by treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological fashion?" I liked the structure of the book maybe because it gave it a spirit of a riddle, which made the story more captivating. To me, books built as riddles add a flavor of intellectual exercise to the experience of the soul which reading usually is. Of course, I'm a Math major, so I like riddles and puzzles in general. Anywhere. Simple things are too often not worth one's attention. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf