File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9809B" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: Movie Pi Has anyone seen the movie Pi? I just saw it yesterday and even after spending 2 hours talking about it, can't get it out of my mind. You would think someone had looked around our list and decided to make a movie about it. I had heard the movie described as a mathematical, science fiction, conspiracy story, and that's a good start. I saw it as Man's (in the specific sense) attempt to understand the patterns of the universe through mathematical exploration. The movie is an analysis of the damage done by emphasizing linear, logical analysis and denigrating nature, circular intuitive understanding, personal relationships and the importance of the female. It's shot in very blatant black and white to make it even less human, almost like animation. It has wonderful symbolization from ants in the computer, to what appeared to me cervical mucus in the same computer, to a "beating" brain (symbolizing the character's total emphasis on intellect rather than emotion), to cluster headaches which occur in men usually after sex, to very sexual sounds while the character is closest to a breakthrough in his data analysis. The kabala even has a prominent role. Oh, I forgot, the guy has a lesion in his temporal lobe. It has a visual appearance, I couldn't tell if it was supposed to represent pi or a Hebrew or Chinese character. So much food for thought I'm drooling. See this movie if you get a chance, I'd love to hear some other views. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:17:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Black Wine, non linear chronology Robin, Thanks for your lesson. I hadn't thought about the fact that our lives truly aren't linear, but you're so right. Memories and intertwined relationships are always milling around in the present. Logic might be linear, but life isn't. On the question of when we knew there were different characters, if one analyzes dreams from a Jungian perspective, I think, one is supposed to view all characters as representing aspects of oneself. In that vein you could say that Essa was the complete character, Etta represented the part of herself that wouldn't have suffered from having been abandoned by her mother, Ea, in her caged woman aspect, represented all of our highest fears, kind of like a crazy bag woman (what would happen to me if I lost all my resources?) Ea's mother was the romantic, sensual weak willed self, the grandmother and the cousin-husband were the out of control, dark evil "shadow" aspects of her character, Fierce Frightened was, well, fierce and frightened. Escape from Bondage was one who could devise a whole new way of relating to a bad situation -- his language -- without actually changing the situation. Maybe this dream analysis helps understand how the characters could describe the most horrendous tortures as feeling "strange". In a dream we feel fear, even terror, but maybe not actual pain. At least, I can't remember ever having felt pain in a dream. Isn't that where that idea of "pinch me I must be dreaming" comes from? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:45:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Movie Pi -Reply I've only posted once before, so I'm not really confident about the whole posting process... I saw Pi a few weeks ago. I enjoyed it (in as much as one can enjoy such a difficult and grotesque movie) SPOILER (???? I think) * I wasn't really sure where the movie was going in terms of philosophy. It seemed like the recurrence of the ants might imply the supremacy of nature/natural patterns over human attempts to comprehend them. The whole movie seemed to suggest that total comprehension of things wasn't possible or a good idea...The main character's quest for understanding seemed to cut him off from regular interaction. Or was it because he was cut off from regular interaction that he couldn't succeed? I didn't really like the last scene with the Kabbalists..somehow the main character's dialogue sounded like something a fifteen year old would say...sort of "I want to do my own thing, you're not the boss of me..." It seemed like a very simplistic critique of religion, speaking as an atheist. I guess the movie is rather difficult for me to interpret because it doesn't seem to hold anything up as safe or worthwhile, even by default (not that everything has to be all happy, but it's a lot easier to figure out the movie's pov when everything isn't proved worthless)...it's hard to envision a universe in which the story's problems could be resolved. I'm not sure whether this was intentional or simply flawed plotting. But I truly liked the depiction of headaches...I have felt just like that with migraines, and i have indeed tried stupid things (not as spectacular as in the movie, but still) to try to end the headache. It's funny, the movie got bad reviews here in Minneapolis, so I wasn't going to bother going, but I went with friends and was really impressed. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:31:59 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ephraim mallery Subject: Re: Question of non-linear chronology in novels In-Reply-To: <199809071405.JAA18478@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am also interested in your list of Robin's novels. Beyond that, I haven't read alot of SFF that has strayed into the realm of nonlinear narrative. What are some of the better examples, and some of the worst? Ephraim I have a mind like a marshmallow - unpredictable in the microwave. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:17:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Brighton Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine In-Reply-To: <9809011727.AA20543@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I *finally* finished reading this book. I can't say I liked it very much. I actually decided to give it up at one point before the discussion started. But once I read the discussions I decided to give it another try. I found the sexual violence really difficult to take, this flavored the whole book for me. Did it have to be so graphic? And I wondered how people who were used as sexual objects by their owners, elders, whomever, were able to so *easily* have loving sexual relations with their peers? how could someone so easily switch from fuc*ing to --whatever they called sex among themselves, for pleasure-- Is it all a matter of semantics? I found I did not really *care* about the characters until the very end, most of the time I was only mildly curious. Yet I feel there is a lot more to the book than I got from my initial reading. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:22:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Pi Jane, I'm so glad someone else saw it. You call the movie difficult and grotesque, well, I'll agree with that. But I was so disappointed in Good Will Hunting just because it wasn't difficult. Here's a movie about a guy who is such a genius he can understand anything, so what should he do with his life? Somehow I wasn't content that he should do the same thing as Joe Blow down the block who can't get his head out of MTV. The guy in Pi really asked the question, really tried to solve the problem. SPOILER ALERT Ok, he got it wrong, but by showing how he got it wrong, I think he showed how to get it right. The guy absolutely rejected all things natural, all things female even to the extent of trying to destroy the right side of his brain to keep out the interference of non linear thinking. He did at last realize that the ant could have had some benefit in solving the problem, but he couldn't take any larger step to embrace that side of himself that was powerfully trying to communicate the other way of viewing the problem. I don't know much about Kabalists, I don't know if their extremism in trying to use him to get the number was realistic. It seems to me if you really believe someone has the key to face to face communication with god, you might be extreme in trying to get it. It also seems to me if someone came to me saying I had the clue to this communication but I couldn't use it, I had to give it to them, I'd probably react kind of the same way. Hey, I've devoted my life to understanding the universal pattern, damned if I'm going to let someone else have the solution and cut me out. Did you spend hours discussing the movie with your friends? Wasn't it great finally to see a movie that prompted such conversation? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Pi -Reply It's funny, I didn't even think of the whole female/right-brain/non-linear-thinking/potential-cervical-mucous-in-the- computer aspect of the film...didn't really think of it in terms of gender at all. Even after all this feminist sf, it's still far too easy for me to see a man as the universal hero. I thought of the film more in terms of human limits, I guess. I suppose my feelings about the dialogue with the Kabbalists were negative simply because what the main character said seemed simplistic, he couldn't come up with a good reason for not giving it to the Kabbalists except that it was his. To me there was a pretty good implicit reason for not giving the number to the stock market folks, since they would have used it essentially to profit unfairly, hurting others. But I'm not really sure how others would have been hurt if the Kabbalists used the code--and if they did use it, would this mean that no one else could? Again, I'm an atheist, and usually a nasty, snotty atheist, but I don't really buy the implicit equation of religion/Kabbalists with the Evil Stock Market Lady. I suppose that the idea is that religion and money both manipulate you, but I just don't think they're neccesarily equivalent, which is why I found this somewhat annoying. There was kind of a fifteen-year-old-boy-rejecting-everything-except-computers-and- surliness vibe to that whole bit...that sort of disgust with religion you get when you first find its flaws but before you realize that flaws don't neccessarily invalidate everything. I mean, I have dear friends who are young, surly computer people; it just doesn't seem sufficient as a critique of religion to me. The other question--was the guy happy in the end? How damaged was he? It was clear that he didn't get headaches and that his math skills were gone. But he was able to talk clearly and he was actually interacting with someone. Was he better off self-lobotomized? (Or whatever he did to himself--I couldn't look at the screen) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:08:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Walto Subject: Alternate Universes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm wondering what the listserv members think of the use of alternate universes in science fiction. I'm not sure whether I buy into this concept or not. I just finished reading Catherine Asaro's Skolia empire series. In the second novel *Catch the Lightning* she uses an alternate universe and gives an explanation of how this phenomenon works (which I almost grasped). I've been trying to think of other novels that use alternate universes as a plot device and I'm drawing a blank. The only thing I can think of is the Star Trek series. I am differentiating this from parallel universes. I don't know if I have my terminology right, but I think of an alternate universe as one with the same worlds/people in it, but different circumstances. A parallel universe is an entirely different world with different characters. For some reason I find falling down a rabbit hole into a parallel universe far more understandable than someone slipping through a crack into an alternate universe. I'm not sure exactly why. Any thoughts on the use of alternate and parallel universes? Sincerely, Susan Walto PS: Catherine, I did find the geneology in The Last Hawk. Now I am eagerly awaiting the release of The Radiant Seas. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: List of non-traditional novels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Several people have expressed interest, so I'll run a partial list today. This list is more weighted toward NON-Sf (although I would argue that in many ways these novels are fantastic literature, magical realism, other "literary" categories that share some conventions of speculative fiction but are marketed differently) because I'm at the office. I'll check over my SF shelves at home. The novels on the list all share a different attitude toward chronology than the traditional narrative scheme, and also include (often) multiple points of view, fantastic "events," and what I would say is a deep spiritual sense. (If white males write this sort of weird stuff, they call it "postmodern"--i.e. james joyce and thomas pynchon. If white women and people of color write it, it's called something else....Virginia Woolf did a better job of stream of consciousness with Mrs. Dalloway than JJ did!) Ahem. Bless Me Ultima Rudolfo Anaya single narrator, Chicano, fairly chronological, but some different kinds of stuff because of religious beliefs). (also writes murder mysteries which I haven't had time to read). The Joy Luck Club Amy Tan stories of four mothers and four daughters, all Chinese immigrants and their daughters; was made into a pretty good movie, but the book has a lot more. House Made of Dawn N. Scott Momaday first novel by American Indian author to win Pulitzer prize; Navajo culture and religious beliefs created through narrative form as well as through content Love Medicine, Tracks, The Beet Queen, The Bingo Palace Louise Erdrich a 'series' of four related books though not sequels in any normal sense. Multiple narratives woven together; not published in order of 'chronology' of events; one of my favorite authors The Crown of Columbus Louise Erdrich & Michael Dorris a little easier to follow than Erdrich's other works--two professors try to research/track down "Columbus" Ceremony Leslie Marmon Silko the opening Navajo chant puts "novel" in context of storytelling--a lot of "flashbacks" which confuse sense of linear chronology The Gilda Stories Jewelle Gomez as far as I know, the first African American lesbian vampire! A vastly different kind of vampire than the traditional genre fictions present. Mama Day Gloria Naylor set on the Barrier Islands off the coast of the Carolinas, a family story which brings past and present together, through multiple narrators (one of whom is technically dead when the novel begins, but traditional African beliefs include communication with the dead. Naylor's other novel The Women of Brewster Place might be more familiar, but I like this one better Beloved Toni Morrison soon to be a movie with Oprah Winfrey! Wonderfully constructed tale of a haunting based on a "true" story (a woman who had escaped slavery and who killed her children rather than allow them to be taken back under the Fugitive Slace Act) Off the top of my head, the SF/F novels which are more experimental (there are more, I just cannot recall them this early) Joanna Russ The Female Man (four characters who are really the same person born into different cirumstances, plus an authorial voice or two) Sheri Tepper Sideshow (you need to read GRASS and RAISING THE STONES to really appreciate all that's going on here--this novel has a lot of fun twisting time around) Katharine Kerr (sp?) has a whole series of novels based on early Celtic culture--based on the idea of reincarnation--she purposefully structures them narratively to follow that wonderfully interlaced knotwork rather thana linear structure. She had to write sort of defensive explanatory notes in the novels because so many fans complained! More later! Enjoy! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:41:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lisette boily Subject: Re: Alternate Universes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding Susan Walto's query about alternate and parallel universes: Philip Pullman wrote two very impressive and engaging novels about "other" universes: The Golden Compass and The Subtle Knife. I believe the third in the series is due out soon. They are marketed for young readers, but I have had many a wonderful conversation with adult readers of SF about them. They are complex and entertaining, and feature a 12 year old female main character, who stumbles along rips in her universe, enabling her and her companions to enter other universes. I actually think the novels may shoot over the intended young adolescent audience to become mainstays of general SF. The setting is an alternate (or parallel?) universe where where English society pivots between medievalism and high technology, and where all humans have a "daemon" other half companion--a creature who resembles their true character. In childhood the daemons can change shape character (as children's characters are not yet set) but upon adolescence, they "set" for life in a form of the person's choice/will. These novels combine alternate history/universes, some "hard" SF and a general mystery/fantasy template. There's also a very good novel by Kathleen Ann Goonan called The Bones of Time, which is about accessing the past or future, which are envisaged as separate universes, actually. It's a great historical and political read, too (on the history of American colonialism in Hawaii...). There's a web page called "The Ultimate Science Fiction Web Guide" (can't find the URL, sorry!) that lists just about all English Language SF by category. It's worth a try. There's also a very useful web page called "Uchronia" that deals exclusively with alternate history texts. Good luck, Lisette Boily Toronto, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:07:05 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Alternate Universes In-Reply-To: <8625667A.004AF55E.00@fluoroware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're making between "alternate" and "parallel" universes; from what you've said, I'd attach the labels the other way around from what you did, but I'm still unclear on how you're making the distinction. I haven't read CA's books, so I'm not sure how it's done there, and that may be adding to my confusion... -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Susan Walto [mailto:Susan_Walto@FLUOROWARE.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 7:08 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Alternate Universes > > > I'm wondering what the listserv members think of the use of alternate > universes in science fiction. I'm not sure whether I buy into this > concept or not. I just finished reading Catherine Asaro's Skolia > empire series. In the second novel *Catch the Lightning* she uses an > alternate universe and gives an explanation of how this phenomenon > works (which I almost grasped). I've been trying to think of other > novels that use alternate universes as a plot device and I'm drawing a > blank. The only thing I can think of is the Star Trek series. > > I am differentiating this from parallel universes. I don't know if I > have my terminology right, but I think of an alternate universe as > one with the same worlds/people in it, but different circumstances. A > parallel universe is an entirely different world with different > characters. For some reason I find falling down a rabbit hole into a > parallel universe far more understandable than someone slipping through > a crack into an alternate universe. I'm not sure exactly why. > > Any thoughts on the use of alternate and parallel universes? > > Sincerely, > Susan Walto > > PS: Catherine, I did find the geneology in The Last Hawk. > Now I am eagerly awaiting the release of The Radiant Seas. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:47:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanna Goltzman Subject: Pi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: Joyce Jones >Subject: Re: Movie Pi > >I had heard the movie described as a mathematical, science >fiction, conspiracy story, and that's a good start. I hadn't really thought of Pi as science fiction, but the idea of the spiral or the helix is one I've seen in Elisabeth Vonarburg's work--especially her short story _Chambered Nautilis_. The spiral has to do with looking at time and space as non-linear. Also, if you think of the spiral as a nautilus shell, the chambers inside get bigger the deeper you go, meaning that there is more space inside the nautilus than its shell occupies. What this means, I'm not sure. An Ammonite is structured like this too, I believe. Anyway, one group of people in Vonarburg's story believes the universe is a spiral. There is an end to it, but one can go up and down the spiral through time and space. I find that an interesting idea. But back to Pi-- *spoilers follow* I enjoyed the idea that the main character--can't think of his name--was some sort of Messiah and he had the answer everyone wanted, but he didn't want to share it. (I agree, Jane, he sounded like a whining kid.) He was right that Lenny (was that the name of the guy working on the Kabala?) and his friends had written out every 216 (is that even the number? It's been a couple of weeks since I saw the movie) letter word there is and that they must have seen the word they were looking for but didn't understand it. >Oh, I forgot, the guy has a lesion in his temporal lobe. It has a visual >appearance, I couldn't tell if it was supposed to represent pi or a Hebrew >or Chinese character. I totally missed this. I thought he just had a cut on his head from all the banging around he had done, but you're right, there must have been some sort of symbol on his head. He kept repeating that his mother told him never to look directly into the sun and that as a kid he looked and he "understood." It seems that his research was another way of looking into the sun--or at God. I enjoyed the movie, but could have done without all the chase scenes. It felt like those were thrown in for people who would be bored with the intellectual parts. I'm also not sure I understood the end. He drilled into his brain and got rid of the part that had "understood"? Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:57:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Re: Alternate Universes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- As for the difference between "parallel" and "alternate" universes, I always think that anything can happen in parallel universes - even Dr. Who monsters can be dominant species and not be giggled at - while alternate universes must have followed our own timeline for a while, then diverged. Alternate universes represent "the roads not taken," as it were. (Am I right?) Anyway, I wanted to call attention to an interesting alternate universe story in the latest Dozois "Year's Best Science Fiction" (15th collection): "Echoes" by Alan Brennert. Here the female narrator, as a side-effect of genetic manipulation, is haunted by "echoes" of herself that exist in alternate realities. It's an imaginative way of exploring ambition and limitations in the character. A feminist story in a sort of old-fashioned sense. Comments? BTW, there are a number of stories in this collection that would be of interest to the list, and I heartily recommend it (though it's taken me a month of spare time to read this big anthology). -- David Christenson - LDQT79A@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Karen Brighton wrote: > I found the sexual violence really difficult to take, this flavored > the whole book for me. Did it have to be so graphic? And I wondered how > people who were used as sexual objects by their owners, elders, whomever, > were able to so *easily* have loving sexual relations with their peers? > how could someone so easily switch from fuc*ing to --whatever they called > sex among themselves, for pleasure-- Is it all a matter of semantics? Well, I think it's the way it happens to the most of people, especially women. If all sexually abused women became unable to love, then human race would have gone extinct centuries ago. It's the same as bad weather -- even if you have to work the field in the rain and cold every day for the most of your life, it does not mean that you won't want to leave house when you are not forced to do so. For many woman in the world, the lind of violence described in the book is just as customary to witness as bad weather. Maybe even more. In fact, what I found interesting about the violent sexual scenes in the book was theunusual fact that a woman was the agressor. Moreover, contrary to the"norms" of teenage sexuality, it were girls who were watching their grandmother having sex with a slave, and even getting aroused from that, until she started drawing blood from the guy. Despite their shock, the girls kept coming back to watch -- in fact, this peeping was what seemed to trigger their own sexual relationship. It was very refreshing, in my opinion, for this book to admit that female desire is not that much different from male, that teenage girls are just as preoccupied with the stuff as their male peers, and that they can also be aroused by pornography and not just by the "feminine" romantic-emotional stuff. Concerning the violence part, it seems that the author does not have a very high opinion of heterosexual sex in general. Most of the love scenes described in detail are homosexual, like the ones between the sisters or between Essa and the Carrier. The relation between Fierce Frightened and Escape from Bondage is more of that father-daughter kind, and the only one seemingly equal heterosexual relationship is between Essa's parents, which is barely outlined. Ea's partner seems to be no more that "Dr. Watson" whose role is to be the recepient of the explanations of her reasons to leave her world. While the cruelty of the Grandmother seemed to me as one of those "evil old women" stereoptypes. This was one of the parts that irritated me about the book -- women had an equal right for a sexuality, but they expressed it only either with women, or with older men. Even the Mihn guy, who had had some mutual interest with Essa, ended up dating her daughter instead (or so it was implied). Apparently, being old enough to be the woman's father was a requirement for a "good" man-woman relationship, while the other way around it could only be rape. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:13:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Alternate Universes -- Vonarburg, spoilers In-Reply-To: <199809091657.MAA09354@mime4.prodigy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My favorite alternate universe was in Reluctant Voyagers by Elizabeth Vonarburg. It start as an ordinary day in a life of a female college professor, then the Earth she lives in starts looking a bit strange, and then things turn weird even by that Earth's standards. Using the definition proposed here, the universe in the book is both parallel andalternative at the same time. Which makes for a fascinating plot. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:19:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK WINE. I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:44:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Really dreadful culture, with lesbians Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >it seems that the author does not have a >very high opinion of heterosexual sex in general (Yes, I know I'm quoting two different people.) I think there's a very unfortunate tendency to assume that homosexual sex in books Means Something whereas heterosexual sex is, you know, just sex. I remember the big debate about whether Marghe in _Ammonite_ was a lesbian, and if not wouldn't she have trouble, and shouldn't she have been warned, and if she was a lesbian someone should have said something to notify the reader, and on and on. Now, here we had a female character who (a) didn't seem distressed at the lack of prospective male partners (b) fell in love with another woman (c) slept with her (d) was delighted to bear a child with her. It seems either arrogant or very naive not to just assume, using Occam's Razor, that what we have here is a lesbian or bisexual woman. People are straight *all the time* in fiction, and it doesn't mean anything. Nor is it declared. It's assumed. If I were a lesbian writing SF, I'd have lots of lesbian characters and it wouldn't mean anything except that I was writing what I knew (don't mean to say lesbian SF writers all do this, I don't have sufficient data to say yea or nay, but I know it's how my writing would come out). And by god I wouldn't feel the need to make a statement about it; the reader would be expected to figure it out when the women started falling in love with, or ogling, or sleeping with, other women. Nor would I have added the lesbians in to make the book more feminist, or more "different" or "radical". I remember hearing similar things about "science fiction with women." Now, I agree that I'd like to read some happy books about happy people. And the points about the older men are interesting; I didn't notice them before, so I'd have to reread the book to see if I thought it was as black-and-white as was suggested. (What about Gata and Lowlyn? And didn't Ea's lover/sister have a husband as well?) But I don't think the recent presence of lesbians in SF means so much, or needs to be explained by the author so much, as several people have suggested over the past many months. I don't mean this specifically to any of the people whose comments I've referenced. It's just making me grumpy. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Really Dreadful Culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat, RE:> I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre >of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with >lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK >WINE. > I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. >Patricia (Pat) Mathews You need to prove your point, otherwise I must assume this is homophobia. Taking lesbian to mean - self-identified and preferredly sexual with women, which is what I believe the modern definition can be at times, I review our BDG readings. Books Not On The BDG List: Hand Of Prophecy - ?????? Books Read: Ammonite - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians (no lesbians because there was no issue of identity in a one sex culture) Dreamsnake - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Halfway Human - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Same sex sexual behavior, but no Lesbians Mists of Avalon - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Alien Influences - Realistic Culture, No Lesbians Black Wine - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Fluid sexuality, No Lesbians (possible spoiler info below) . . . . Books yet to Be Read: Shadow Man - Fascinating Culture, Fluid and various sexualities, Lesbians? Snow Queen - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Sparrow - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:15:39 +0100 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > > I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre > of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with > lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK > WINE. > I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu Pat I hate to be obtuse, but what do you mean? Terri Wakefield ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:29:21 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Really Dreadful Culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I don't understand this post. >From either of you. Offensive/defensive/offiensive. There's no Lesbian stuff here. Black Wine questions and indulges in various forms of love and love-making but isn't homosexual. In a fantasy world, this is not an issue. or that's what we hope. Women make very strong bonds. And sometimes those bonds cross over the "barrier" erected by societies of various kinds, including our own late 20th century mentality. Fantasy ought to do that. That's what it IS. There is a myth perpetuated mostly in male-dominated fiction that women are always at war with each other. Ain't true. It's a male fantasy about women fighting over men. Well, sure, it really does happen. But cannot be extended into women's friendships. They are, like men's friendships, strong and true. I love many women. They are my dearest of friends. Don't make love to them sexually. Love them, hug them. Make love to them in the sense of friendship and sharing. This is not homosexual. This is just love. lightly lightly zozie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:33:21 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Really dreadful culture, with lesbians Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Nice post. thanks. such a tempest in a teapot! zozie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:49:41 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/9/98 9:02:42 PM, Marina wrote: <> Sheesh...from you? Implies that male is the "norm?" Smiling, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:03:52 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Alternate Universes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/9/98 1:00:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LDQT79A@PRODIGY.COM writes: > As for the difference between "parallel" and "alternate" universes, I > always think that anything can happen in parallel universes - even Dr. > Who monsters can be dominant species and not be giggled at - while > alternate universes must have followed our own timeline for a while, > then diverged. Alternate universes represent "the roads not taken," as > it were. (Am I right?) I've been on a strange reading kick for the past few months, trying to educate myself about Einstein's Special and General Theories of Relativity. In pursuit of this goal, I've gotten a pretty healthy dose of speculative thinking from current quantum physicists. The ones I've read don't seem to make a distinction between "parallel" and "alternate" universes. I believe either term can be applied to multiple, disparate universes existing alongside or perhaps within one another. If one could travel faster than the speed of light, or even send signals faster than the speed of light, then one could subvert the order of things. Effects could precede their cause. Anything traveling faster than light, per Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, will move backward in time. The possibility of parallel universes has been advanced as one workaround to the causality paradoxes that would result if travel backward in time were possible in any way other than through an Einstein-Rosen bridge (or worm hole) produced by a rotating black hole. In the case of an Einstein-Rosen bridge, it may be possible to move backward in time. However, in the course of doing so, one would be deposited in a far different point in the universe and the odds of there being a reverse bridge back to the original departure point are so close to zero as to defy calculation. Ergo, no causality paradoxes for time travel via a black hole. I can go back in the universe's time, but not in my own time. You have probably heard some of the time-travel paradoxes. A classic is, "What if a time traveler goes back in time 60 years and kills her own parents before she is conceived?" Now granted this would be a pretty unlikely thing for a time traveler to do--a very unorthodox way of committing suicide. Nonetheless, the question remains, since this could be done if backward time travel proved possible, what would be the consequences? If eliminating ones progenitors prior to ones birth erased the perpetrator from the time-space continuum, then the person presumably couldn't have been around to travel back in time in the first place and commit the dastardly act. So, if it turns out that time is like the other three dimensions and that a person having the right technology can freely move fore and aft in time, then how do we resolve causality paradoxes that arise when an effect seems to precede its cause? Alternate or parallel universes offer one convenient possibility. If I travel back and alter the timeline in ANY way, so the thinking goes, I proceed forward from that point of alteration in a separate universe from the one in which I traveled backward in time. It is probable that ANY travel backward in my own time-space continuum (not into some distant environs from which I can never return) would indeed alter the timeline. If I travel back to witness my own birth, and I do NOTHING but observe the event and leave, I have still altered the timeline. Presumably, when I was born before traveling backward in time, no grownups from the future popped out of nothingness to clutter up the busy delivery room. Had that happened, I am certain my mother would have remembered it. So the mere fact of poofing into existence in the middle of this blessed event would render it a different blessed event than the one in which I "believe" I was first born. Granted there is a ton of science fiction dealing with various time-cop corps whose function is to prevent erstwhile time travelers from altering the timeline. Still, such an idea seems half-baked next to the more real possibility that all causal time travel alters the timeline, and that each such alteration establishes an alternate universe, a branch operation where two separate timelines now proceed forward. Another very real possibility--though one not nearly so rich in sci-fi potential--is that backward time travel of a causal nature is simply not possible within the confines of the physical universe. This is what the COP (causal ordering postulate) says, and it has proven true in an amazing number of instances when physics "seemed" to offer some loophole to snag the proverbial "arrow of time." The COP enforces the speed-of-light limit throughout the universe. Every time we've thought we had found a loophole, when carefully explored, the "loophole" was found not to work. Enough random thoughts about this very fascinating, through not entirely on- topic question. Thanks for letting me ramble. If anyone else finds Relativity fascinating, I'd be happy to trade thoughts by private e-mail. WaterLuv ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:51:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: Re: OT:List of non-traditional novels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Reid wrote: > > Several people have expressed interest, so I'll run a partial list today. > This list is more weighted toward NON-Sf (although I would argue that in > many ways these novels are fantastic literature, magical realism, other > "literary" categories that share some conventions of speculative fiction but > are marketed differently) Have you read any of Jeanette Winterson's novels? Very non-linear, often a confusion of voices and images. Beautifully written, but can be a bit difficult and take a couple of re-readings. I recommend _Written on the Body_, and _Gut Symmetries_, though all her books are worth looking at and often surprisingly funny. Cheers SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:09:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: OT:List of non-traditional novels In-Reply-To: <35F81FBC.20D9@schant.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes Jeanette Winterson's novel "Written on the Body" also never identifies the sex of the narrator which is fascinating. The author is lesbian but the main character's sex is never determined. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, schant wrote: > Robin Reid wrote: > > > > Several people have expressed interest, so I'll run a partial list today. > > This list is more weighted toward NON-Sf (although I would argue that in > > many ways these novels are fantastic literature, magical realism, other > > "literary" categories that share some conventions of speculative fiction but > > are marketed differently) > > Have you read any of Jeanette Winterson's novels? Very non-linear, often > a confusion of voices and images. Beautifully written, but can be a bit > difficult and take a couple of re-readings. I recommend _Written on the > Body_, and _Gut Symmetries_, though all her books are worth looking at > and often surprisingly funny. > Cheers > SC > -- > "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." > Old Spanish proverb, > quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG: Black Wine In-Reply-To: <767bf69d.35f73035@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I don't think there can be any norm in a field like sexuality. However,I do think that the type of sexuality that for some stupid reason is called "male" makes a lot more sense than all the "more emotional" and "sensitive" stuff that women are _supposed_ to prefer just because it's considered more "feminine". I also think that many women, if given a choice, would prefer the sexual behavior close to that accepted as "normal" from males. Because it means freedom. Women rarely act the same way simply because the social price is too high. Besides, I think that just because something is considered "male" it does not make it automatically "wrong". If that was the fact, why did women want to vote? Or work outside the home? After all, that was a "male norm" too. Sorry if I sound too harsh. I'm just so tired of trying to explain "why would women want to 'be like men'?". As well of having to act like an idiot and do everything backwards just because it's considered "the woman's way" by both the conservatives, who see it as the law of nature, and many feminists, who feel that women _must_ do everything different from men. If that were the case, then why do we wear pants? Because it's "male" and therefore "norm", or because it's more comfortable? Marina On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 9/9/98 9:02:42 PM, Marina wrote: > > < in my opinion, for this book to admit that female desire is not that much > different from male,>> > > Sheesh...from you? Implies that male is the "norm?" > > Smiling, > phoebe > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel In-Reply-To: <767c05bb.35f74198@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I had a theory on time-travel when I was a kid. It was pretty simple. Basically, since the Earth is rotating both around its axle and around the Sun, which in its turn moves in relation to the center of its galaxy (The Milky Way, I believe), then every place on Earth if seen as a point in space continuously moves in a complex spiral path relative to some fixed location in the Universe. Therefore, since each point in time corresponds to aspecific (and unique) location in space, maybe time is no more than this movement along the spiral path in space. So if one could somehow transport themselves into the exact place the certain point on Earth (for example, The Westminster Abbey in London) was at a specific time (say, on May 5, 1593, 12:30 AM) -- the exact location in the Universe it was at the moment -- then instead of hanging in the void, the person would actually end up in 16th century England. You know, last year there was an article in Newsweek (back when I subscribed to it) about the origins of Universe. It was talking about astronomers who using super-powerful telescopes were able to see the stars that were so far away that it took billions of years for their light to reach the Earth. Which meant that the observers were seeing these stars the way they had been about the time of the Big Bang. The article said that these people were in the process of trying to look further, to maybe see the Big Bang itself. Now, think about this. If people on Earth, at present time, can see the Big Bang, where the Earth inself has originated, it means that it is possible, from a planet in one point in space, to see the same planet (or its matter) the way it was back in time. If you can _see_ the past as a far-away location, then you can travel to it, too (it's just a matter of technology). And if you could travel to the time/location of the Big Bang, I'd think you could definitely travel to the day you are born. So the question of time travel comes down to: 1) calculation of the "absolute address" in the Universe of the needed place at the needed time; and 2) the means of getting there, making the necessary adjustment for the time/space that would elapse during the travel itself. I hope it makes sense. There might be an official scientific theory proving or disproving this possibility already, I don't know. I was too young when I came up with this to do any research, and now I'm too busy trying to survive to spend time on this. But at any rate, this is how I think time travel is possible. :) Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:42:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alan Moore Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Great post, Marina. Sure makes one think... Alan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:19:31 -0400 Reply-To: kamholse@fuse.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sally Kamholtz Subject: Re: List of non-traditional novels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One non-traditional SF novel that suggests itself is Ursula LeGuin's Always Coming Home. The story is divided into three chunks and is interspersed with poems, history, myths, descriptions of foods, instruments, all sorts of things, all together yielding a future archeology of a post-apocalyptic society. You can read it in any order you please (although the story of Stone Telling is, for this novel reader, the central narrative.) It is quite marvelous. It even comes with a tape of music from that time. In some ways it reminds of Dorothy Dinerstein's Mermaid and Minotaur in which her argument about gender is off set by side-bars. One doesn't read it linearly--or one doesn't have to, anyway. Sally Kamholtz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Really Dreadful Culture In-Reply-To: <000801bddc4c$633b5560$2ab11b26@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, donna simone wrote: > > RE:> I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre > >of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with > >lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK > >WINE. > > I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews > > You need to prove your point, otherwise I must assume this is homophobia. > Taking lesbian to mean - self-identified and preferredly sexual with > women, which is what I believe the modern definition can be at > times, I review our BDG readings. What I meant was, that this is the only feminist aspect of these books - that the heroine (a.k.a. chief victim)and a lot of other people are lesbians. Other than that the culture is oppressive, enslaving, and full of mean & nasty people, with occasionally an obscure valley full of peaceful sharing polyamorous people. No, not homophobia. Just a wish that someone would triumph other than by just having a lover. > > Books Not On The BDG List: > > Hand Of Prophecy - ?????? > > Books Read: > > Ammonite - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians (no lesbians because there was > no issue of identity in a one sex culture) Agreed. Tons of lesbians, no problem with that, the Company was bad enough to be General Jack D. Ripper. > Dreamsnake - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Very much agreed.> > Halfway Human - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Same sex sexual > behavior, but no Lesbians Hideously depressing culture, unisex Chief Victim. > > Mists of Avalon - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians > > Alien Influences - Realistic Culture, No Lesbians Sorry. Hideously depressing and so bad you can't imagine how the younger generation gets born and reared. > > Black Wine - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Fluid sexuality, No > Lesbians What?!?!?!?> > (possible spoiler info below) > . > . > . > . > Books yet to Be Read: > Shadow Man - Fascinating Culture, Fluid and various sexualities, Lesbians? > > Snow Queen - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians > > Sparrow - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians > > donna > donnaneely@earthlink.net > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Really dreadful culture, with lesbians? In-Reply-To: <9809092244.AA06602@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > >it seems that the author does not have a > >very high opinion of heterosexual sex in general > > (Yes, I know I'm quoting two different people.) Before I am drawn into an argument I did not intend to start (since the quote above is mine, and I do not agree with the statement in the Subject line), I'd like to say that the presence of lesbian relationships in the Black Wine did not bother me a bit. Even being terminally straight, I appreciated the opportunity to get a glimpse on a different kind of sexuality. It was interesting. And educational. It did bug me a little that the only heterosexual relations described in the book in any detail were either abusive ones (with the "evil old woman") or the old man/young woman type (arggh!). Either theme is way too stereotypical, and therefore dissappointing in a feminist book. I wish the author stuck to presenting homosexual relations. But it's OK. I won't assume everyone having to write the way I want it. I personally did not find the book "dreary" as much as irritating. Mainly because the heroes kept acting really silly, and because it was presenting ideas that I didn't agree with. Starting from Ea's idiotic reluctance to kill her cousin (at least to protect her family if not herself!) and ending with the revolution (shudder). I have a very low opinion of revolutions and those who promote them. I lived in a country where one of those happened, and I think it's the most retarded way to fight social unjustice. The only thing that's worse is probably terrorism. In other words, I hated the book's "morale", but I really liked its structure and the way it was written. Concerning the lesbian theme, I think it was alright. It seemed to be exactly the way someone explained it: caring relations between women that went beyond friendship. It made sense. Even though I don't share this idea of love, I can understand it. I wish there was a book where heterosexual relations were that reasonable. Marina > I think there's a very unfortunate tendency to assume that homosexual > sex in books Means Something whereas heterosexual sex is, you know, just > sex. I remember the big debate about whether Marghe in _Ammonite_ was a > lesbian, and if not wouldn't she have trouble, and shouldn't she have > been warned, and if she was a lesbian someone should have said something > to notify the reader, and on and on. Now, here we had a female character > who (a) didn't seem distressed at the lack of prospective male partners > (b) fell in love with another woman (c) slept with her (d) was delighted > to bear a child with her. It seems either arrogant or very naive not to > just assume, using Occam's Razor, that what we have here is a lesbian or > bisexual woman. > > People are straight *all the time* in fiction, and it doesn't mean > anything. Nor is it declared. It's assumed. If I were a lesbian writing > SF, I'd have lots of lesbian characters and it wouldn't mean anything > except that I was writing what I knew (don't mean to say lesbian SF > writers all do this, I don't have sufficient data to say yea or nay, but > I know it's how my writing would come out). And by god I wouldn't feel > the need to make a statement about it; the reader would be expected to > figure it out when the women started falling in love with, or ogling, or > sleeping with, other women. Nor would I have added the lesbians in to > make the book more feminist, or more "different" or "radical". I > remember hearing similar things about "science fiction with women." > > Now, I agree that I'd like to read some happy books about happy > people. And the points about the older men are interesting; I didn't > notice them before, so I'd have to reread the book to see if I thought > it was as black-and-white as was suggested. (What about Gata and Lowlyn? > And didn't Ea's lover/sister have a husband as well?) But I don't think > the recent presence of lesbians in SF means so much, or needs to be > explained by the author so much, as several people have suggested over > the past many months. > > I don't mean this specifically to any of the people whose comments > I've referenced. It's just making me grumpy. > > jessie > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:56:43 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/10/98 1:17:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > So the question of time travel comes down to: > 1) calculation of the "absolute address" in the Universe of the needed > place at the needed time; and > It's a fascinating thought, but sadly, it doesn't work that way. You rightly observed that the earth is rotating, orbiting the sun, and moving around the Milky Way Galaxy with the sun, all of which is moving with respect to the center of the universe. We've been going through this motion since time immemorial, and have traveled through a near infinite number of "absolute addresses" in doing so. None of this has ever regressed us to any point in the past, though. If visiting an absolute address put you into the time-space of whatever was last there, we'd be ping-ponging through the timeline all day long, cause we're always visiting absolute addresses. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:02:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel In-Reply-To: <5f0c70e5.35f90ffb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm just reading Isaac Asimov's *The Gods Themselves*. It explores the ethics of energy exchange between parallel universes, and has fascinating characterization of a tri-gendered alien society. I would definitely recommend the novel, and would love to discuss it if anyone's interested. Cheers, pam bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:25:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It has been years since I read that. I may just try to find it again and take you up on discussing it:) Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Pamela Bedore wrote: > I'm just reading Isaac Asimov's *The Gods Themselves*. It explores the > ethics of energy exchange between parallel universes, and has fascinating > characterization of a tri-gendered alien society. I would definitely > recommend the novel, and would love to discuss it if anyone's interested. > > Cheers, > > pam bedore > department of english > simon fraser university > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:57:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: Really dreadful culture, with lesbians? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I didn't actually mean to indicate that any of these comments came from homophobia; I just thought they gave too much credit to heterosexuality as the norm. I've seen a lot of people assuming that lesbian characters are somehow a plot device, or an intentionally written part of the story to make a point, or to "make" a book feminist, or something like that. I'm not sure I'm expressing this clearly. Technically, I don't think we would consider any of the women in _Black Wine_ to be lesbians, because none of them only slept with women, right? (My memory could be wrong, but that's what I remember.) Anyway, to respond to Pat Mathews, I have a better idea of what you're getting at now, but I didn't see the "feminism" of this book so narrowly. I thought this books was feminist because: * it explored many different types of family structures/romantic groupings * it looked at many different types of sexuality * it talked about the problems with having sex when sex was used as an oppressive tactic -- about how to redefine it so that by participating in the same actions, you're not participating in the same thought-patterns, not recreating the same damage * it presented many, many different ideas about the bond between mothers and daughters, stepping far outside the normative cultural images etc etc. For me, all the woman/woman sex was part of the larger exploration of what sexuality was, how it was used, what was good and what was bad, how women could define themselves, rather than having their sexuality define them *or* having other people define their sexuality. And as I said, I remembered several happy, functional heterosexual relationships, so my memory of the book wasn't so heavily weighted towards the actual descriptions of sex. Of course, as always, your mileage may vary. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Bouman Subject: Re: Really dreadful culture, with lesbians? In-Reply-To: <9809111657.AA10128@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Definitely. Most of them were bisexual, not lesbian. On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > I didn't actually mean to indicate that any of these comments came from > homophobia; I just thought they gave too much credit to heterosexuality > as the norm. I've seen a lot of people assuming that lesbian characters > are somehow a plot device, or an intentionally written part of the story > to make a point, or to "make" a book feminist, or something like that. > I'm not sure I'm expressing this clearly. > > Technically, I don't think we would consider any of the women in _Black > Wine_ to be lesbians, because none of them only slept with women, right? > (My memory could be wrong, but that's what I remember.) Anyway, to > respond to Pat Mathews, I have a better idea of what you're getting at > now, but I didn't see the "feminism" of this book so narrowly. I thought > this books was feminist because: > > * it explored many different types of family structures/romantic groupings > * it looked at many different types of sexuality > * it talked about the problems with having sex when sex was used as an > oppressive tactic -- about how to redefine it so that by participating in > the same actions, you're not participating in the same thought-patterns, > not recreating the same damage > * it presented many, many different ideas about the bond between mothers > and daughters, stepping far outside the normative cultural images > > etc etc. For me, all the woman/woman sex was part of the larger > exploration of what sexuality was, how it was used, what was good and > what was bad, how women could define themselves, rather than having > their sexuality define them *or* having other people define their > sexuality. And as I said, I remembered several happy, functional > heterosexual relationships, so my memory of the book wasn't so heavily > weighted towards the actual descriptions of sex. Of course, as always, > your mileage may vary. > > > jessie > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:54:51 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It explores the > ethics of energy exchange between parallel universes, and has fascinating > characterization of a tri-gendered alien society. Didn't Hal Clement write one with that plot? Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 19:13:17 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: FW: [*FSFFU*] Movie Pi Forwarding the comments of a friend of mine whose son was co-writer and lead in this film (which I haven't seen as it's only, as far as I know, been shown in the UK as part of the Edinburgh Festival) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com She writes: I love your colleague's observations about the lesion, the sexual sounds, the mucus, etc.... I wish I could agree that it's feminist in its approach to Max and the feminine. I don't think Pi "knows" that it's about the failure of disconnection. I don't think it analyzes it. I think it thoroughly others what it thinks the "feminine" represents. It shows the feminine on the side of normalcy/the uncreative/ the lobotomized/ the childlike/ the smile at the end. And the script itself has set up the binary in this way--so that the only way to obtain the consolations of the affective world is by failure in the heroic creative enterprise. The film "knows" that this binary is sad, if not tragic. But Sol is its alternative figure--not, say, a midlife woman who manages to make brilliant scientific discoveries and raise a child at the same time. I'll ask Sean about the shape of the lesion and this issue in general. And please post this to your listserv ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: DAVID CHRISTENSON Subject: Griffith's latest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- [ From: David Christenson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Haven't had a chance to read the book myself, but here's a snippet of a review (cadged from "PW Daily," an email newsletter from Publishers Weekly) about Nicola Griffith's latest: "In the September VLS, mystery writer Elizabeth Pincus praises The Blue Place by Nicola Griffith (Avon, $23 ISBN 0380974460)--with special attention to the book's lesbian protagonist. "Aud debuts in The Blue Place, a vivid if cheekily implausible thriller from science fiction author Nicola Griffith, who has veered across genre this go-round but emerged with a novel no less fantastical. Lushly penned, dripping with the swampy heat of Atlanta's early spring, the book makes a fetish of Aud--she's an ex-cop, the daughter of international jet-setters, and a resolute loner, accountable to a private set of moral standards that would shame, if not mystify, many a man in blue." Pincus goes on to call The Blue Place "the first-ever nugget of post-gay pulp, with a hero as sexy and iconic as television's Xena." " Just thought y'all would like to know. (She had to bring Xena into it, didn't she?) -- David Christenson - LDQT79A@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:24:16 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Griffith's latest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit She also said: "But _The Blue Place_ doesn't follow an obvious course; it's as if _La Femme Nikita_ stepped into a '50s lesbian weepie to mess around with the rules." And an awful lot more, besides. She liked the book . Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:11:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Pi Thanks, Lesley, for forwarding comments from your friend about the movie Pi. I liked her speculation that the movie doesn't "know it's about the failure of disconnection." That lead me to wonder: if a work of art evokes strong feelings in those who interact with the art, even though those feelings weren't the intention of the artist, are those feelings authentic responses to the art? Since the majority of commercial films are created by and star men, women are accustomed to interpreting them in ways that meet our own needs. I surmised that, since the movie was created by and starred men, it did not intentionally describe the loss to human thought and scientific advancement that comes from excluding the feminine, right brain orientation to problem solving. However, to my mind it did do just that. None of the men in the film successfully solved the problem of understanding the pattern of the universe. The two who came close to the solution suffered physical damage specifically because they attempted to do so through solely linear reasoning. Sol, the older mentor of Max, does allow himself some interaction with nature and holistic thinking in his love of the Go game and the care he gives his fish, but he also emphasizes that linear reasoning is the only true way to study mathematics. I'm thinking that if he had instead been the middle aged woman who managed to raise a child while pursuing scientific inquiry the character would have come to a better end. So back to the original question, can a work of art explore life in a more profound manner than the artist had consciously intended? Joyce Forwarding the comments of a friend of mine whose son was co-writer and lead in this film (which I haven't seen as it's only, as far as I know, been shown in the UK as part of the Edinburgh Festival) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com She writes: I love your colleague's observations about the lesion, the sexual sounds, the mucus, etc.... I wish I could agree that it's feminist in its approach to Max and the feminine. I don't think Pi "knows" that it's about the failure of disconnection. I don't think it analyzes it. I think it thoroughly others what it thinks the "feminine" represents. It shows the feminine on the side of normalcy/the uncreative/ the lobotomized/ the childlike/ the smile at the end. And the script itself has set up the binary in this way--so that the only way to obtain the consolations of the affective world is by failure in the heroic creative enterprise. The film "knows" that this binary is sad, if not tragic. But Sol is its alternative figure--not, say, a midlife woman who manages to make brilliant scientific discoveries and raise a child at the same time. I'll ask Sean about the shape of the lesion and this issue in general. And please post this to your listserv ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:24:07 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Pi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/98 10:15:51 AM, Joyce wrote: <> What else would they be? Isn't it the intention of art to evoke response? The creator presents a view and essentially says: this is my idea. what do you think? how do you feel about it? And, essentially, ANY response is "authentic" in the presence of the work. We may understand what the artist is saying and agree or disagree or be led to additional and different speculations as to its meaning. Or we may NOT understand at all but still have some kind of a response. And, we are not obligated to accept the artist's vision. Best case is, I suppose, that one views a work of art -- say Picasso's Guernica -- and both sees and feels an intention from the creator and accepts it, whether or not agreeing with it. And that response triggers additional connections within the viewer. I use this painting particularly because most people know it. But some are so anti-modern art that they may refuse the image altogether. Even there, that very refusal constitutes (at least in IMHO) an authentic response. It was engendered by the art itself. Or, take another example where there are more specific choices. Sophocles' great play Antigone is generally perceived to be a play extolling the conflict between a single person (Antigone) and the state (in the person of Creon). But an equally valid interpretation could be that it is a deeply spiritual play about personal piety and the honor, love and obligation one owes to the gods and custom. The historical Sophocles was a Priest of the Hero Cult and of Asklepius and a religious conservative, so we might say the latter interpretation may indeed be a more "authentic" interpretation. Whatever we read into it -- and there may be others -- the play will evoke some response. And here, again, some people may simple tune out on the play because they can't understand the verse, or are unwilling to do the intellectual work required. Just musing... best wishes, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:13:49 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: Pi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-09-12 06:15:43 EDT, you write: << if a work of art evokes strong feelings in those who interact with the art, even though those feelings weren't the intention of the artist, are those feelings authentic responses to the art? >> I spent an hour writing a response to this, only to have AOL swallow it without a burp. So this is short & dirty: Answer 1: Hell yes, think whatever you want. Answer 2: Depends. I think the key word here is "authentic": what do you mean by that? If all you mean is "real," then any response you have qualifies. If, on the other hand, you mean some variation of "right," if in some way you're seeking validation for your feelings (and by strong feelings, I assume you mean an emotional response) in the opinion of others or within a critical context, then it entirely depends on the waters you swim in and the company you keep. And, of course, what your emotional response actually is. Among companions who privilege personal interpretation above all other forms of critical response (I'm OK, you're OK, I may not agree with you, but your opinion is valid, at least as valid as anyone else's...), the author's intent is negligible and you may not be pressed for an explanation. Move above and beyond that level, however, and you should be prepared to give further support to your reaction, and maybe some theoretical context for it to live in, beyond "it just strikes me that way" _IF you want your response to have any reality beyond yourself_. And, hell yes, exactly what your strong feeling is does affect the feedback and resonance. (If, by the way, you're not talking about an emotional response at all, but an intellectual one, an interpretation or idea not expressed by the artist or opposed to statements the artist has made about the work, then you can ratchet up your need to furnish an explanation and amplification and context. The degree of sophistication of your answer again depends on your audience, real or ideal.) Of course, there are schools of theory (deconstruction, among them) that start from the assumption that the work of art or text is an entity open to interpretation from a variety of simultaneous views and attacks, not limited at all by the artist's intent. It helps to be familiar with them if you want to call on them for help. Examples: I was lecturing to a group of kids (4th grade? I forget) in an exhibition of Surrealist art. We had looked at a few things, talked about the word play in Magritte: this is a real thing, this is a picture of a thing, this is a word that is a name for a thing. We looked at "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." Then we looked at a small painting of a piece of runny brie, the painting displayed under a real glass cheese dome on a plate, with the title This Is Not a Piece of Cheese. I asked the kids, "Is this a piece of cheese?" Big "No!" and much hilarity in response. "What is it?" I asked one kid waving a hand. "It's a piece of pie!" Everyone falls down laughing. Authentic response? Adolescent males looking at a replica of Venus of Willendorf in disgust approaching hatred. Authentic response? I took a high-school group through an exhibition of analytical Cubism. In front of Picasso's Femme Nu, I talked about Picasso's (expressed) desire to eliminate everything sensually appealing from the painting, to make the Cubist alteration of form the only thing the viewer would have left to focus on. Talked about him stripping away color, 3-D space, any shred of naturalist representation, lush brushwork, the simulation of light and shadow to represent rounded shapes; talked about the significance of the nude. Their teacher interrupts me to say "Just look at the shapes and try to find pictures in them: the artist jumbled up these cubes so that you could be free to exercise your imagination!" Authentic response? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:03:41 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: Pi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Joyce; You said:<> As a woman who has made her living as a visual artist for the last 17 years, I couldn't resist commenting on your question. How can anyones' emotional reaction to a work of art, be anything but authentic, regardless of the artists' intentions? I have had the experience of people seeing things in my work, that I didn't consciously intend, but that doesn't mean they weren't there, whether I ever see it or not. If I've done a good job as an artist - only part of the final product comes from my intellectual intention. The rest comes from emotion, my subconscious and places of the mind/body/spirit amalgam that I can barely begin to describe. I often know what it feels like, sometimes how to get there, but never really what that creation thing is. As a viewer of other people's work, I have a similarly complex response. <> Absolutely. I think that's why creating art can be a better high than any drug. Guess I'm going to have to see this movie. Mary-Ellen Maynard Crystal Mist Glass Carving Guffey, CO 80820 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:39:04 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: C.R.O.N.E.S. Comments: cc: Donna Simone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks! Just to let you know that the framed version of C.R.O.N.E.S. is up and running. The URL is http://www.breakingset.org/mainframe.html - or just use the link on the opening page. -- I dare you -- to be real; To touch -- to touch the flickering flame.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:14:01 +0000 Reply-To: ellen@dsuper.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ellen Servinis Subject: Feminist Utopias MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TESSERA: FEMINIST INTERVENTIONS IN WRITING AND CULTURE CALL FOR PAPERS ** FEMINIST UTOPIAS ** TESSERA invites you to submit creative and/or critical work inspired by a utopian impulse for our summer 1999 issue. Political, sexual, technological, millennial--what kind of dreams and anxieties motivate and are motivated by utopianism? What is the relationship between no place and this place? between feminist politics and feminist visions of a liberatory elsewhere not yet realized? How do utopias become transgressive imaginative sites? idealistic evasions? self-constructed prisons? In what ways do women explore the potential of utopianism in science fiction and fantasy? on the internet? in alternative communities? How do feminist utopian projects intersect with other social-political projects? Chart the domain of the ideal and/or impossible. **** DEADLINE: FEBRUARY 28, 1999 **** _________________________________________________ SEND US YOUR WRITING AND VISUAL ART Critical essays, poetry, fiction, non-fiction, rants, comics, as well as writing that traverses or resists traditional genres. High quality photocopies of your photography, drawing, collage, performance, video or installation. TESSERA publishes the creative and theoretical work (in English or French) of Canadian, Qu^Îb^Îcois, and international feminists. Please send both a hard copy and a diskette (WordPerfect or Microsoft Word) and include a brief biographical note. PLEASE SEND YOUR SUBMISSIONS TO: TESSERA C/O LIANNE MOYES DEPARTEMENT DÕETUDES ANGLAISES UNIVERSITE DE MONTREAL C.P. 6128, SUCCURSALE CENTRE-VILLE MONTREAL, QC H3C 3J7 FAX: (514) 343-6443 ********* For more information, contact Ellen Servinis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel In-Reply-To: <5f0c70e5.35f90ffb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Jim Hollomon wrote: > It's a fascinating thought, but sadly, it doesn't work that way. You rightly > observed that the earth is rotating, orbiting the sun, and moving around the > Milky Way Galaxy with the sun, all of which is moving with respect to the > center of the universe. We've been going through this motion since time > immemorial, and have traveled through a near infinite number of "absolute > addresses" in doing so. None of this has ever regressed us to any point in the > past, though. If visiting an absolute address put you into the time-space of > whatever was last there, we'd be ping-ponging through the timeline all day > long, cause we're always visiting absolute addresses. I don't think so. We never visit the same location twice, because of the constant motion and the fact that the Universe continuously expands. Besides, in order to get into a specific location in the past, we need to account for the motion of Earth _and_ that location occuring during the time of our travel. As I said, if it's possible to see the Big Bang through a telescope, then it's possible -- thoretically -- to travel with it. And if it's possible to travel to one location-time in the past, then it can be done to any other. Including one's birthday or 15th century England. Basically, if we consider Earth as point zero in the xyz system of coordinates, then time (on Earth) could be seen as a coiled line through space originating (or more like ending) at the present and stretching back to the Big Bang of whatever it was there at the beginning of time. In this case, "present" moment on Earth could be seen as a kind of spider that spirals its way trough space leaving a "spiderweb" line of past behind, extending it with avery moment. That is, if the "future" does not exist until it happens. If it does, then it's more like a bead sliding down the above mentioned line of time-space from the beginning of time to its end. In either case, travelling from one point in time to another would be like making a "shortcut" between two points of the line. Kind of like you can take the train from Dallas to New York City through Chicago, or you could rent a charter plane and fly straight. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:00:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Pi In-Reply-To: <000001bdde36$182acba0$593d2299@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > Thanks, Lesley, for forwarding comments from your friend about the movie Pi. > I liked her speculation that the movie doesn't "know it's about the failure > of disconnection." That lead me to wonder: if a work of art evokes strong > feelings in those who interact with the art, even though those feelings > weren't the intention of the artist, are those feelings authentic responses > to the art? I think, this is what constitutes the heart of post-modernist approach -- the idea that once created, the object of art carries its own meaning independent from the author's intentions, the meaning that can be different for different people, none of whom would be "right" or "wrong". For example, that part of Mark Twain's _Huckleberry Finn_ where Huck dresses as a girl and is discovered because he cannot "act like one" seems to be originally intended to make fun of women. Huck is discovered because he can hit a rat with a shoe, while a real girl "would always miss". Mark Twain uses this and other stuff like that to ridicule women and show that they always do everything backwards. But if you look at it from another perspective, the same stuff proves the fact that this "female inferiority" is clearly not natural but socially enforced. After all, no matter how bad you are in throwing shoes, there is always at least a chance that you can hit the rat. Stating that "a real girl would _always_ miss" means that a girl would miss on purpose, because that is what she has been taught being a girl is all about. It definitely was not Mark Twain's intention to show that. But it's there nevertheless. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:40:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am forwarding Krista's message (with her permission). Thought you all might be interested. > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Krista Park wrote: > > > Gregory Benford, in his novel _Timescape_, deals w/ communication > > accross time (not exactly time travel) in the way marina suggested. > > > > I don't have the novel infront of me, but Benford uses some sort of a > > Nutrino (I think) lasor/beam of some sort to communicate in a more > > complex form of morse code. > > > > The goal of the future scientists is to avert environmental catastrophe > > by telling the people of the past about the results of their scientific > > al advances. > > > > In both timeframes, the dominant characters are male; however, many of > > the men are in relationships w/ very strong female characters. And the > > womanizing male character gets interesting reactions from the wives of > > the other really prominant scientists. All in all, it is a very good > > book. > > > > Benford is a scientists (w/ a Ph. D), but I don't remember his field; > > so, I assume that there is a decent amt of theory regarding this idea of > > time travel. > > > > > > Krista Park > > American University > > > > Marina wrote: > > > > > > I had a theory on time-travel when I was a kid. It was pretty simple. > > > Basically, since the Earth is rotating both around its axle and around the > > > Sun, which in its turn moves in relation to the center of its galaxy (The > > > Milky Way, I believe), then every place on Earth if seen as a point in > > > space continuously moves in a complex spiral path relative to some fixed > > > location in the Universe. Therefore, since each point in time corresponds > > > to aspecific (and unique) location in space, maybe time is no more than > > > this movement along the spiral path in space. > > > > > > So if one could somehow transport themselves into the exact place the > > > certain point on Earth (for example, The Westminster Abbey in London) > > > was at a specific time (say, on May 5, 1593, 12:30 AM) -- the exact > > > location in the Universe it was at the moment -- then instead of hanging > > > in the void, the person would actually end up in 16th century England. > > > > > > You know, last year there was an article in Newsweek (back when I > > > subscribed to it) about the origins of Universe. It was talking about > > > astronomers who using super-powerful telescopes were able to see the stars > > > that were so far away that it took billions of years for their light to > > > reach the Earth. Which meant that the observers were seeing these stars > > > the way they had been about the time of the Big Bang. The article said > > > that these people were in the process of trying to look further, to maybe > > > see the Big Bang itself. > > > > > > Now, think about this. If people on Earth, at present time, can see the > > > Big Bang, where the Earth inself has originated, it means that it is > > > possible, from a planet in one point in space, to see the same planet > > > (or its matter) the way it was back in time. If you can _see_ the past as > > > a far-away location, then you can travel to it, too (it's just a matter of > > > technology). And if you could travel to the time/location of the Big > > > Bang, I'd think you could definitely travel to the day you are born. > > > > > > So the question of time travel comes down to: > > > 1) calculation of the "absolute address" in the Universe of the needed > > > place at the needed time; and > > > > > > 2) the means of getting there, making the necessary adjustment for the > > > time/space that would elapse during the travel itself. > > > > > > I hope it makes sense. There might be an official scientific theory > > > proving or disproving this possibility already, I don't know. I was too > > > young when I came up with this to do any research, and now I'm too busy > > > trying to survive to spend time on this. But at any rate, this is how I > > > think time travel is possible. > > > > > > :) > > > Marina > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > > is selling at the time." > > > Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:15:46 +0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: carolyngiang Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Marina > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Alternate Universes/Time travel > Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 4:31 AM > > On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Jim Hollomon wrote: > > > It's a fascinating thought, but sadly, it doesn't work that way. You rightly > > observed that the earth is rotating, orbiting the sun, and moving around the > > Milky Way Galaxy with the sun, all of which is moving with respect to the > > center of the universe. We've been going through this motion since time > > immemorial, and have traveled through a near infinite number of "absolute > > addresses" in doing so. None of this has ever regressed us to any point in the > > past, though. If visiting an absolute address put you into the time-space of > > whatever was last there, we'd be ping-ponging through the timeline all day > > long, cause we're always visiting absolute addresses. > > I don't think so. We never visit the same location twice, because of the > constant motion and the fact that the Universe continuously expands. > Besides, in order to get into a specific location in the past, we need to > account for the motion of Earth _and_ that location occuring during the > time of our travel. > > As I said, if it's possible to see the Big Bang through a telescope, then > it's possible -- thoretically -- to travel with it. And if it's possible > to travel to one location-time in the past, then it can be done to any > other. Including one's birthday or 15th century England. > > Basically, if we consider Earth as point zero in the xyz system of > coordinates, then time (on Earth) could be seen as a coiled line through > space originating (or more like ending) at the present and stretching back > to the Big Bang of whatever it was there at the beginning of time. > > In this case, "present" moment on Earth could be seen as a kind of spider > that spirals its way trough space leaving a "spiderweb" line of past > behind, extending it with avery moment. > > That is, if the "future" does not exist until it happens. If it does, > then it's more like a bead sliding down the above mentioned line of > time-space from the beginning of time to its end. > then if one is able to travel or see into the future, or if someone from the future were able to come to us (Terminator, Back to the Future type films), this would mean that we are all living in some moment in the 'past'... do you think that once a moment has passed, it remains frozen at that particular instant, and there is a whole constellation of such moments spinning silently, waiting for a visitor from another time? Then we leave an essence of ourselves behind, some autonomous image alive but frozen, and there is a whole series of us(s) along your spider web? (Sliders? But more complex?) > In either case, travelling from one point in time to another would be like > making a "shortcut" between two points of the line. Kind of like you can > take the train from Dallas to New York City through Chicago, or you could > rent a charter plane and fly straight. > > IMHO, > Marina > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:54:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Pi -Reply (I am really delighted with this Pi discussion; all the comments seem so insightful) (The really strange thing about all this is that the main character in Pi looks almost exactly like my housemate--a thing people have commented on spontaneously, including a visitor to my house who met my housemate for about five minutes) It made the film really disconcerting to watch, and occasionally distressing since the similarity was so great) (also, I don't know how to quote from other people's emails, so I'll have to paraphrase) The idea that the film does not "know" it's about disconnection--that sums up my frustration with the film. I couldn't figure out what the film meant, because there didn't seem to be a way to resolve the problems of the story; there wasn't an obvious mistake that Max or Sol made that could have been repaired so that they understood things. And yet there seemed to be very little value in heroically dashing oneself against the rock of higher mathematics--it made people cranky, unpleasant, physically ill. So it seemed that insofar as there was a message, it felt like the choice was between being limited and ignorant or unpleasant and somewhat less ignorant. To me, that kind of situation--where no one and nothing is good and valuable--feels like a cheat philosophically. If that's the case, and nothing is any good, then why does one make films? Why mess around with neat and horrible special effects? It seems like the very act of bothering to comment on the horrors of the world suggests that something is worthwhile--even if it's only telling unpleasant truth. The act of comment seems to invalidate the comment itself. For this same reason, Thomas Hardy really makes me fume. I would add, though, that I liked Pi, while I don't like Thomas Hardy. I think a work of art can do more than the artist intends, because I think that when you're writing something, you can pick up on a pattern in your ideas without being fully conscious of the meaning of the pattern. (I'm not saying this very well) There have been several times when I've written something and put it aside, and when I return to it I notice that a metaphor I hadn't thought much about fits really well into the whole, that the parts of the piece work together in ways that I hadn't intended, that the language is consistent in ways I didn't consciously choose. The things I consciously chose to include created a pattern of ideas which suggested to me, without my realizing it, other things to include. I think of this in terms of that rather amusing but meanspirited film, Fargo. (Much hated by most Minnesotans; since I'm a Minnesotan by choice rather than birth, I have a little latitude in this) To me, the character of the woman cop doesn't really fit the frame of the film; she's a real person, she is complex and ordinary and good. That's not what the film's about. In some ways, she throws the film off balance because she keeps having real reactions to satirical things. Based on the rest of the film and on other Coen brothers work, I don't think they meant her to be that way. But she got away from them. I think that can happen. (Also, has anyone read that Orson Scott Card story, in Monkey Sonatas, about the composer?) So I suppose the question is, how does this "the artist didn't mean it but it happened" theory fit into criticism? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:15:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Pi -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What about Thomas Hardy did you not like? You are referring to the author of Tess of D'urbiville right? If you are, then I would have to disagree with you on your statement that noone and nothing is good and valuable in his novels. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > (I am really delighted with this Pi discussion; all the comments seem > so insightful) > > (The really strange thing about all this is that the main character in > Pi looks almost exactly like my housemate--a thing people have > commented on spontaneously, including a visitor to my house who met my > housemate for about five minutes) It made the film really > disconcerting to watch, and occasionally distressing since the > similarity was so great) > > (also, I don't know how to quote from other people's emails, so I'll > have to paraphrase) > > The idea that the film does not "know" it's about disconnection--that > sums up my frustration with the film. I couldn't figure out what the > film meant, because there didn't seem to be a way to resolve the > problems of the story; there wasn't an obvious mistake that Max or > Sol made that could have been repaired so that they understood things. > And yet there seemed to be very little value in heroically dashing > oneself against the rock of higher mathematics--it made people cranky, > unpleasant, physically ill. So it seemed that insofar as there was a > message, it felt like the choice was between being limited and > ignorant or unpleasant and somewhat less ignorant. > > To me, that kind of situation--where no one and nothing is good and > valuable--feels like a cheat philosophically. If that's the case, and > nothing is any good, then why does one make films? Why mess around > with neat and horrible special effects? It seems like the very act of > bothering to comment on the horrors of the world suggests that > something is worthwhile--even if it's only telling unpleasant truth. > The act of comment seems to invalidate the comment itself. > > For this same reason, Thomas Hardy really makes me fume. I would add, > though, that I liked Pi, while I don't like Thomas Hardy. > > I think a work of art can do more than the artist intends, because I > think that when you're writing something, you can pick up on a pattern > in your ideas without being fully conscious of the meaning of the > pattern. (I'm not saying this very well) There have been several > times when I've written something and put it aside, and when I return > to it I notice that a metaphor I hadn't thought much about fits really > well into the whole, that the parts of the piece work together in ways > that I hadn't intended, that the language is consistent in ways I > didn't consciously choose. The things I consciously chose to include > created a pattern of ideas which suggested to me, without my realizing > it, other things to include. > > I think of this in terms of that rather amusing but meanspirited film, > Fargo. (Much hated by most Minnesotans; since I'm a Minnesotan by > choice rather than birth, I have a little latitude in this) To me, > the character of the woman cop doesn't really fit the frame of the > film; she's a real person, she is complex and ordinary and good. > That's not what the film's about. In some ways, she throws the film > off balance because she keeps having real reactions to satirical > things. Based on the rest of the film and on other Coen brothers > work, I don't think they meant her to be that way. But she got away > from them. I think that can happen. (Also, has anyone read that > Orson Scott Card story, in Monkey Sonatas, about the composer?) > > So I suppose the question is, how does this "the artist didn't mean it > but it happened" theory fit into criticism? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:34:23 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain >From: Marina >Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel (fwd) > >I am forwarding Krista's message (with her permission). Thought you all >might be interested. > >> On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Krista Park wrote: >> >> > Gregory Benford, in his novel _Timescape_, deals w/ communication >> > accross time (not exactly time travel) in the way marina suggested. >> > >> > I don't have the novel infront of me, but Benford uses some sort of a >> > Nutrino (I think) lasor/beam of some sort to communicate in a more >> > complex form of morse code. Actually, it's a tachyon beam -- tachyons are those (hypothetical) particles which travel faster than light, and thus go backwards in time. They fire the beam at the place where the Earth was, and the beam is supposed to affect an experiment taking place some time ago. Note that this wouldn't work without tachyons, which no one knows how to find, let alone make into lasers. Great novel, one of those few books I give to friends who are curious about SF but haven't read much. Great speculation, and characterization on the level of good mainstream fiction. Not really feminist, though. >> > The goal of the future scientists is to avert environmental catastrophe >> > by telling the people of the past about the results of their scientific >> > al advances. >> > >> > In both timeframes, the dominant characters are male; however, many of >> > the men are in relationships w/ very strong female characters. And the >> > womanizing male character gets interesting reactions from the wives of >> > the other really prominant scientists. All in all, it is a very good >> > book. >> > >> > Benford is a scientists (w/ a Ph. D), but I don't remember his field; >> > so, I assume that there is a decent amt of theory regarding this idea of >> > time travel. Physics. He's one of those hard SF writers who researches and writes about the same stuff -- there are a few of those guys around. >> > Krista Park >> > American University >> > >> > Marina wrote: >> > > >> > > I had a theory on time-travel when I was a kid. It was pretty simple. >> > > Basically, since the Earth is rotating both around its axle and around >> > > the Sun, which in its turn moves in relation to the center of its >> > > galaxy (The Milky Way, I believe), then every place on Earth if >> > > seen as a point in space continuously moves in a complex spiral >> > > path relative to some fixed location in the Universe. Therefore, >> > > since each point in time corresponds to aspecific (and unique) >> > > location in space, maybe time is no more than this movement along >> > > the spiral path in space. >> > > >> > > So if one could somehow transport themselves into the exact place >> > > the certain point on Earth (for example, The Westminster Abbey in >> > > London) was at a specific time (say, on May 5, 1593, 12:30 AM) -- >> > > the exact location in the Universe it was at the moment -- then >> > > instead of hanging in the void, the person would actually end up >> > > in 16th century England. I don't think so, Marina, but I'd like to read an SF story about it... ;) Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:47:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Pi -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (Okay, I introduced something off-topic and hit a sore point....) I feel like Hardy stacks the deck against his characters, so to speak. Not to the degree present in Pi, but all the same, it seems like a major character in a Hardy novel just can't win. Hardy's worldview seems so dark and fatalistic that there's just no way to envision things working out for his major characters. (not counting the minor ones who end up sort of happy) What I take to be Hardy's outlook is insufficient to me, in terms of philosophy that seems to describe the world. I'm not denying that Hardy is a great writer; I've voluntarily read his a number of his books, and even re-read them. It is unfair to compare Hardy's work to Pi with the kind of flip, totalizing statement I used. But I was just being flip...There are some good, valid things in Hardy's novels--the novels after all are much larger than Pi--it's just that over the whole you just can't win in Hardy and it makes me feel claustrophobic. Which is like Pi to me. It's not that I like books with simplistic happy endings; it's just that I like to figure out the kind of world that the author is trying to set up as good and worthwhile. Hardy's fatalism, I feel, gets him to the point where overall human life on this world can't be good and worthwhile. Not just that it isn't in his books, but that it can't be. In Black Wine, for example, most places are rather horrid. But we get ideas about what the author would like to see replace them--the warm fuzzy people in the remarkable mountains, the Minh. This isn't very detailed and would not suffice for English class...I'm on my way out the door...What do you like about Thomas Hardy? And Tess? Please understand that I think Hardy is a very fine writer, he's just not someone I agree with, as I understand what he's saying. (later I'll try to write something that uses actual specifics instead of this vagueness) Also bear in mind that I'm a 24-year-old Chinese Studies major, so my experience with critical writing on Hardy is pretty small, say non-existant. All my reading of Hardy has happened with just me all alone with my own ignorance, and most of it happened about 3 years ago, in a wild binge of Hardy abandon. (prompted, bizarrely enough, by my most drug-addled friend, who adored reading Hardy in between going to raves back when raves were illegal...what this says about Hardy I'm not sure) Ok, must leave. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:24:55 -0400 Reply-To: virchick@bostonabcd.org Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Garret Virchick Subject: SCIFI High School Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi ...we are an English teacher and a Science teacher from University High School in Boston. Out school is an alternative school for at risk youth...predominantly students of color or working class white youth who have not made it in traditional schools. We are co teaching a class in Science Fiction and looking for suggestions for readings, both novels and short stories. Ideally they can be used as teaching tools for real science as well as jumping off points for writing assignments. We have come up with the following units: 1 Are We alone in the Universe or What might an alien look like? 2 Dawn by Octavia Butler 3 Are we just machines? Robots..Monsters..and Humans 4 Other Worlds and Other Dimensions 5 Time travel and the nature of the Universe 6 Drugs, Pain and Medicine in Science Fiction 7 Space Travel: The Road To Mars and Beyond 8 Life, Death, Dreams and Aging 9 Future Predictions We may also include a unit with the 2nd book in the Xenogenesis Series if the students like the first. We also are trying to decide on other novels to use. We would love to hear suggestions of other novels...short stories...and/or movies in the genre that are on the progressive side of the genre. Also we would love to hear from anyone else who has attempted this type of project...especially at the high school level (tho we would love to hear from university or junior college teachers as well). Thanks Garret Virchick and Mike James Science English ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:18:12 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jim Hollomon Subject: Re: Alternate Universes/Time travel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/14/98 9:14:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carolg@PACIFIC.NET.SG writes: > then if one is able to travel or see into the future, or if someone from > the future were able to come to us (Terminator, Back to the Future type > films), this would mean that we are all living in some moment in the > 'past'... do you think that once a moment has passed, it remains frozen at > that particular instant, and there is a whole constellation of such moments > spinning silently, waiting for a visitor from another time? Then we leave > an essence of ourselves behind, some autonomous image alive but frozen, and > there is a whole series of us(s) along your spider web? (Sliders? But more > complex?) Good point. There are theories to this effect, that time is a series of pigeon holes and that a specific moment sits in each box. Time travel would amount to leaping forward to distant future pigeon holes, or turning the ordinary one- by-one progression around and going to ones we'd already seen in the past. However, the moment we posit this, we must accept that we lack any volition in the scheme of things. If all time exists simultaneously, then we cannot change what is ordained for the future any more than we can erase what we've already written in the past. If this is the case, it would make time travel rather pointless. It would say that you can go to the future or to the past, but you can't do anything meaningful once you get there. I prefer the arrow-of-time theory popular in Western Judeo-Christian thinking. Throughout the old and new testament of the Bible, the arrow-of-time metaphor, with time proceeding unerringly forward from creation to the end time, is the common metaphor of the work. This says that time started out at some finite moment in the past, and that it proceeds forward, moment by moment, at its regular, inexorable pace toward some distant future where time will end. It is like the flight of an arrow. In contrast, other cultures are more cycle-of-time in their thinking. Time is seen as a loop, which keeps repeating. There is a touch of this in Judeo- Christian thought as well. The Book of Ecclesiastes, most notably, puts forth the cycle-of-time picture. "There is no new thing under the sun." And again, "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the North; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, tither they return again . . . The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done." (Ecc 1:5-9) As to which is right, the jury is still out. Physicists think there may be enough matter in the universe so that gravity (mass attraction) will eventually overcome the expansive force of the big bang, and the universe will begin to shrink, ultimately collapsing into one infinitely small and massive singularity (the single-point mass at the center of a black hole). If that happens, perhaps the whole mess will again explode into a big bang, only to repeat this cycle in some 40 to 50 billion years. Perhaps we've been pinging and ponging like that for eternity, and will continue to do so for an eternity more. In that case, then it's entirely possible that the all-times-exist-at- once idea is right. Or it could be that karma better describes it. We keep repeating till we get it right. I find this a particularly depressing theory owing to the 50 billion year period of the cycle and my abysmal pace at "getting it right." As a Westerner, till better evidence comes along, I prefer to believe in the arrow-of-time mostly, but to understand that there are definite cycles-of-time buried within the arrow's progress. I prefer to believe that all is not predestined, that I do have a choice. And I definitely prefer to believe that I'm not stuck in a 50 billion year recycling machine. :-) Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:27:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: cfp: Feminist SF; ICFA (10-12-98; 3-17-22-99) Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, owner-melus-l@listserver.TAMU-Commerce.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu, sfuf@csd.uwm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CALL FOR PAPERS: FEMINIST SF ICFA 3-17-22-99 Proposal Deadline: 10-12-98 The 8th James Tiptree Jr. Memorial Award will be awarded at the 20th International Conference on the Fantastic in the Arts, March 17-22, 1999, at Ft. Lauderdale in Florida. The Tiptree is awarded for the year's best "exploration of men and women's gender roles" in SF. To mark the occasion, papers are solicited for a session or sessions on Feminist SF. The sessions may focus on literature, theory, or both. The deadline for proposals is October 12, 1998. If you are interested in participating, please send a 500-word abstract describing your project and indicating your scholarly or theoretical context to: Robin Anne Reid Department of Literature & Languages TAMU-C Commerce TX 75429 FAX: 903-886-5980 Department fax machine; please make sure my name is on the submission Email: Robin_Reid@tamu-commerce.edu Please follow up email submission with hard copy ASAP Work Phone: 903-886-5268 Possible topics areas are listed below, but this list is meant to be suggestive not prescriptive. All feminist proposals will be considered. Feminist author or authors* Feminist SF & "Race" or Ethnicity Sexual Identities in Feminist SF Feminist Utopias/Dystopias Feminism in 80's and 90's SF Feminist SF & Class Feminist SF: Different Generations Feminism in SF Film & Media * Proposals on Tiptree herself should be sent to: Sylvia Kelso, School of Language, Literature and Communication, James Cook University, Townsville, QLD 4811, AUSTRALIA. E-mail (E-mail recommended, and if mailed should be date-marked no later than October 8th 1998). She is organizing the Tiptree session(s). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:34:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: taliban home page For those of you who enjoyed "The Handmaid's Tale" you might want to check out the taliban home page. Sounds like it's here. http://taliban.com Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:44:31 +0100 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Feminist Arthurian Literature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know I'm a month late with this list, but I thought a couple of people might be interested in some of these titles that were suggested recently on the ARTHURNET List. Subject: Re: Feminist Arthurian novel? What a good question! I heartily recommend _The White Raven_ by Diana Paxson (1988), which is the Tristan & Iseult story from a very feminist Branwen's point of view. (Paxson credits the influence of _Mists of Avalon_ in her acknowledgements). Another good feminist T & I rendition is _Iseult_ by Dee Morrison Meaney (1985)--but this may be out of print by now. Fay Sampson's "Daughter of Tintagel" series (1989-1992) is, in my mind at least, the natural successor to _Mists_, but again these volumes are often hard to find. A nice surprise is _The Grail of Hearts_ by Susan Shwartz (1992), which presents the grail search from a tormented woman's point of view. (Shwartz credits the influence of both MZB and Paxson in her afterword). The main character here is Kundry who, because she laughed at Christ's cruxificion, is doomed to wander until "a fool made wise thru pity" (i.e., Percival) achieves the grail. Although a big part of this novel is set during Christ's time, the story is fascinating nonetheless and, I think, would give a unique twist to the Arthurian legend. Finally, if you really want something nontraditional, I recommend the first three volumes of Patricia Kennealy's Keltiad series: _Copper Crown_ (1984), _The Throne of Scone_ (1986) and _The Silver Branch_. The main character here is Queen Aeron Aoibhell, Arthur's descendent, who must find the thirteen treasures he left behind in order to save her world--which, BTW, is on a planet in another galaxy. The succeeding three volumes of this series, called by Kennealy "The Tales of Arthur," are more traditionally Arthurian, but not very "feminist." Leslie: You might want to check out Fay Sampson's _Daughter of Tintagel_ series (it was originally published as five books, and then in an omnibus edition). The last book of the series, _Herself_, was particularly interesting (and we may have had some discussion of it on arthurnet a while ago). There are also several short stories in various anthologies that might qualify (Karr's "Galahad's Lady" from _Chronicles of the Holy Grail_ or Heather Rose Jones' "The Treasures of Britain" from the same anthology comes to mind). If you don't limit yourself to female authors, Parke Godwin's _Beloved Exile_ is also a possibility. Mary J. Jones' _Avalon_ is a lesbian Arthurian novel. Hope these suggestions help. Terri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:58:21 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Pi -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I guessed you missed his novel "Far from the Madding Crowd" that he wrote. Very picaresque and also a happy ending. It was his first novel and I have learned recently that he changed to tragic endings because that was popular at the time- a sort of object lesson in morality and ones choices in life. You may want to try that one; anyway, he was one of the first realistic romance novelists. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > (Okay, I introduced something off-topic and hit a sore point....) > > > I feel like Hardy stacks the deck against his characters, so to speak. > Not to the degree present in Pi, but all the same, it seems like a major > character in a Hardy novel just can't win. Hardy's worldview seems so > dark and fatalistic that there's just no way to envision things working > out for his major characters. (not counting the minor ones who end up > sort of happy) What I take to be Hardy's outlook is insufficient to me, > in terms of philosophy that seems to describe the world. I'm not > denying that Hardy is a great writer; I've voluntarily read his a > number of his books, and even re-read them. > > It is unfair to compare Hardy's work to Pi with the kind of flip, > totalizing statement I used. But I was just being flip...There are some > good, valid things in Hardy's novels--the novels after all are much > larger than Pi--it's just that over the whole you just can't win in > Hardy and it makes me feel claustrophobic. Which is like Pi to me. > > It's not that I like books with simplistic happy endings; it's just > that I like to figure out the kind of world that the author is trying to > set up as good and worthwhile. Hardy's fatalism, I feel, gets him to > the point where overall human life on this world can't be good and > worthwhile. Not just that it isn't in his books, but that it can't be. > In Black Wine, for example, most places are rather horrid. But we get > ideas about what the author would like to see replace them--the warm > fuzzy people in the remarkable mountains, the Minh. > > This isn't very detailed and would not suffice for English class...I'm > on my way out the door...What do you like about Thomas Hardy? And Tess? > Please understand that I think Hardy is a very fine writer, he's just > not someone I agree with, as I understand what he's saying. (later I'll > try to write something that uses actual specifics instead of this > vagueness) > > Also bear in mind that I'm a 24-year-old Chinese Studies major, so my > experience with critical writing on Hardy is pretty small, say > non-existant. All my reading of Hardy has happened with just me all > alone with my own ignorance, and most of it happened about 3 years ago, > in a wild binge of Hardy abandon. (prompted, bizarrely enough, by my > most drug-addled friend, who adored reading Hardy in between going to > raves back when raves were illegal...what this says about Hardy I'm not > sure) Ok, must leave. >