File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9809C" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:23:26 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Pi . (Also, has anyone read that > Orson Scott Card story, in Monkey Sonatas, about the composer?) > > So I suppose the question is, how does this "the artist didn't mean it > but it happened" theory fit into criticism? Well, how's that for synchronicity? My sister and I saw Pi together and have had some of the most wonderfully stimulating conversations around it. I've had her read some of our discussions from this list including the thread about getting more meanings from art than the artist had intended. She brought up Card also. She's a friend of his and said he hates people to read things into his work, hates to have art "intellectualized." The phrase of his she quoted was "Don't tell me what I'm trying to say." Aaaargh! Pomposity overload warning. There are some phrases that just smack of masculine grandiosity and that's pretty near the top of the list. In his defense, I must add that she finds him neither pompous nor grandiose, this was just my interpretation. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:52:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Hardy Jane said: "To me, that kind of situation--where no one and nothing is good and valuable--feels like a cheat philosophically. If that's the case, and nothing is any good, then why does one make films? Why mess around with neat and horrible special effects? It seems like the very act of bothering to comment on the horrors of the world suggests that something is worthwhile--even if it's only telling unpleasant truth. The act of comment seems to invalidate the comment itself. For this same reason, Thomas Hardy really makes me fume. I would add, though, that I liked Pi, while I don't like Thomas Hardy." I do know what you mean. Television these days is wallowing (or reveling, depending on your taste) in Thomas Hardy. Jude the Obscure was on one of the HBO or Showtime channels. I found it completely depressing. I don't need Hollywood feel-good endings, but please, couldn't at least something good happen to a main character? Tess of the D'urbervilles is being shown in 2 parts on A&E this month, haven't seen it yet, and Far From the Madding crowd was on last month or so. Now, there was a fine story. Again, I don't mind that characters struggle or even that they fail, but please let there be some benefit to their lives. I know all the references are to TV shows, but, alas, I don't believe I'll be sinking my teeth into Thomas Hardy any time soon. However, here's a couple of books I did take a bite of. I loved Shipping News by Annie Proulx, so when Accordion Crimes came out, I couldn't wait to read it. I found there was a limit to how much tragedy I could take connected with one little musical instrument. I read a review on Amazon.com from someone from the Netherlands who says that Americans were disappointed with the depiction of tragic lives, but she found it refreshing. How one is refreshed by constant death and mutilation is beyond me. John Irving wrote about The World According to Garp that it's a comedy in which everyone dies. But see, it was. People died all over the place, there was blood shed and mutilation but hope was the underlying message. If the message is that there is no hope, why write the book? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:57:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: Hardy Jane said: > >"To me, that kind of situation--where no one and nothing is good and >valuable--feels like a cheat philosophically. If that's the case, and >nothing is any good, then why does one make films? Why mess around >with neat and horrible special effects? It seems like the very act of >bothering to comment on the horrors of the world suggests that >something is worthwhile--even if it's only telling unpleasant truth. >The act of comment seems to invalidate the comment itself. > >For this same reason, Thomas Hardy really makes me fume. I would add, >though, that I liked Pi, while I don't like Thomas Hardy." I do know what you mean. Television these days is wallowing (or reveling, depending on your taste) in Thomas Hardy. Jude the Obscure was on one of the HBO or Showtime channels. I found it completely depressing. I don't need Hollywood feel-good endings, but please, couldn't at least something good happen to a main character? Tess of the D'urbervilles is being shown in 2 parts on A&E this month, haven't seen it yet, and Far From the Madding crowd was on last month or so. Now, there was a fine story. Again, I don't mind that characters struggle or even that they fail, but please let there be some benefit to their lives. I know all the references are to TV shows, but, alas, I don't believe I'll be sinking my teeth into Thomas Hardy any time soon. However, here's a couple of books I did take a bite of. I loved Shipping News by Annie Proulx, so when Accordion Crimes came out, I couldn't wait to read it. I found there was a limit to how much tragedy I could take connected with one little musical instrument. I read a review on Amazon.com from someone from the Netherlands who says that Americans were disappointed with the depiction of tragic lives, but she found it refreshing. How one is refreshed by constant death and mutilation is beyond me. John Irving wrote about The World According to Garp that it's a comedy in which everyone dies. But see, it was. People died all over the place, there was blood shed and mutilation but hope was the underlying message. If the message is that there is no hope, why write the book? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:08:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: alternate universes/time travel Jim said: "Perhaps we've been pinging and ponging like that for eternity, and will continue to do so for an eternity more. In that case, then it's entirely possible that the all-times-exist-at- once idea is right. Or it could be that karma better describes it. We keep repeating till we get it right. I find this a particularly depressing theory owing to the 50 billion year period of the cycle and my abysmal pace at "getting it right." This is another topic of discussion for my sister and me. She's a Mormon, I'm a feminist-spirituality-oriented something or other. She also thinks this ponging around for 50 billion years is depressing. She like to think you have only one shot, but if you follow the rules, you'll get it right. I know how slow I am to figure anything out and can see it may well take me the whole 50 billion because I have a hard time knowing which rules to follow. But at least there's hope I'll get it. The test might not be graded on a curve, but there are unlimited retests, no one fails. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:15:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Handmaid's Tale More shades of The Handmaid's Tale Joyce >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on >Sunday. > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged >daughters and women who fear being raped. > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as >saying. > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such >as ringworms. > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not >expected to balloon. > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad >situation.'' > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated >rapist might even kill his victim. > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on >maritial relations. > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > ^REUTERS@ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:22:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: vampires This is a long review, but people interested in a literary analysis of vampires will find it interesting. Joyce Reviewed for H-PCAACA by Philip Simpson Joan Gordon and Veronica Hollinger, eds. _Blood Read: The Vampire as Metaphor in Contemporary Culture_. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1997. xi + 264 pp. Illustrations, bibliographical references, and index. $36.50 (cloth), ISBN 0-8122-3419-7; $16.50 (paper), ISBN 0-8122-1628-8. http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=23106905546246 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:40:25 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: [FYI: Reproductive Technologies Internet Project] Comments: cc: wmsprt I found this site on the women's history list: >> I'm writing you to inform you about the Global Reproductive Health Forum > >> (GRHF), at http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet, a new > >> Internet networking project about reproductive technologies, health and > >> gender based at the Harvard School of Public Health. This website is a tool > >> for students, activists and researchers interested in reproductive > >> technologies and gender to rapidly access new information and discussions > >> about these questions. I can't think of a more informative site if you're a gendered and/or sexed human being. Topics, in French and Spanish as well as English include: Gender, Biology & Technology (with a big discussion of cyborgs and the work of Donna Haraway), Reproductive Rights; HIV/AIDS; Sexually Transmitted Diseases; Contraception ( everything you can think of including natural family planning); Abortion, Population and Family Planning; Maternal Health; and a Teenzone. There are lots of ethical papers, diagrams, e-mail lists, Ezines, references and links. What a find, you can get lost in here. Check it out. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:45:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <001601bde078$9b6c3820$b18dfbd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was wondering who might think that this may help, because, it may help deter rape. Surely it isnt like the Dark Ages when women were forced to wear such contraptions. There is more of a choice involved (I would hope so anyway). Surely any type of rape deterrent is better than nothing. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > Joyce > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > >Sunday. > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > >saying. > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > >as ringworms. > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > >expected to balloon. > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > >situation.'' > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > >maritial relations. > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:47:02 -0400 Reply-To: Bertina Miller Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Hardy In-Reply-To: <000101bde075$a598ec60$b18dfbd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Actually I did see Hardy's Tess on A&E and found it very illuminating compared to the novel. The novel was depressing but what I found interesting about the tv movie was the independence Tess showed in refusing help from anyone for so long. An independence I dont remember from the book (maybe it was the movie version in comparison to the book -but it has been ages since I read Tess). I had also forgotten that she finally killed Durbyville/Stokes in the end and temporarily being reunited with Angel. Another interesting aspect I had thoroughly forgotten about in the novel was that Angel was agnostic. Which is surprising coming from that time period he was writing in. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > Jane said: > > "To me, that kind of situation--where no one and nothing is good and > valuable--feels like a cheat philosophically. If that's the case, and > nothing is any good, then why does one make films? Why mess around > with neat and horrible special effects? It seems like the very act of > bothering to comment on the horrors of the world suggests that > something is worthwhile--even if it's only telling unpleasant truth. > The act of comment seems to invalidate the comment itself. > > For this same reason, Thomas Hardy really makes me fume. I would add, > though, that I liked Pi, while I don't like Thomas Hardy." > > I do know what you mean. Television these days is wallowing (or reveling, > depending on your taste) in Thomas Hardy. Jude the Obscure was on one of > the HBO or Showtime channels. I found it completely depressing. I don't > need Hollywood feel-good endings, but please, couldn't at least something > good happen to a main character? Tess of the D'urbervilles is being shown > in 2 parts on A&E this month, haven't seen it yet, and Far From the Madding > crowd was on last month or so. Now, there was a fine story. Again, I don't > mind that characters struggle or even that they fail, but please let there > be some benefit to their lives. I know all the references are to TV shows, > but, alas, I don't believe I'll be sinking my teeth into Thomas Hardy any > time soon. > > However, here's a couple of books I did take a bite of. I loved Shipping > News by Annie Proulx, so when Accordion Crimes came out, I couldn't wait to > read it. I found there was a limit to how much tragedy I could take > connected with one little musical instrument. I read a review on Amazon.com > from someone from the Netherlands who says that Americans were disappointed > with the depiction of tragic lives, but she found it refreshing. How one is > refreshed by constant death and mutilation is beyond me. John Irving wrote > about The World According to Garp that it's a comedy in which everyone dies. > But see, it was. People died all over the place, there was blood shed and > mutilation but hope was the underlying message. If the message is that > there is no hope, why write the book? > > Joyce > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:42:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Pi -Reply -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What is your source about Hardy's big change in themes? Not that I doubt you, but it seems so strange that a total and career-long transition could be made just for sales figures. Would the change in endings neccessarily indicate a change in themes? (A little later) Actually, I have just looked up an article on Hardy and Schopenhauer ( www.worldramp.net/~snag/schopen.html) which tells me that after his first novel, FFTMC, which was written in his very early twenties (that amazes me, speaking as someone who could not produce a major novel in my early twenties...) he lost his religion and his sense of joie de vivre, as it were. Influenced by that dratted Schopenhauer (me, I don't know Schopenhaer from Hume, to tell the truth) he decided that Fate and Chance govern the physical universe and that the main conflict in life is between individual reason and the disordered universe. (I'm lifting straight from the essay, no brilliance of mine) The essay continues, remarking that he veered between determinism (my personal least favorite philosophy of all time) and fatalism for the rest of his life. I infer, from my reading of Hardy, that he believed in peace in the grave and not a heck of a lot else. (The essay, although clunkily written, is ! ! very informative and well-argued, and no I didn't know any of this stuff even an hour ago myself) So anyway, determinism and fatalism are philosophies I have spent much of my college education trying to disprove, with mixed success. They're splendid philosophies to have if you like them, since they're really hard to disprove or viably challege except on the Pascal's Wager kind of method. However, since I'm a very poliical person--hence feminism and this list--I can't stand either. Or rather, since I'm a political person and I have this very academic, cranky approach to philosophy, I get all in a lather about it. Not that I think you can't like Hardy and be political. Speaking of which, how about Hardy's women? And I'd like to know what caused Hardy's loss of faith. Surely Schopenhauer, persuasive as he may be, can't explain all of it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:53:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Pi -Reply-(Card) The strange thing about Card is that he seems to get less feminist over the course of his work...and more homophobic, maybe. And given that he writes those obviously Delphic lil' parables every time he writes a short story, it is foolish not to expect people to analyze them. And in fact, that's what I like about the one short story, in which the works of the composer continue to be loved and remembered even after he has joined the evil people and stopped creating music. It argues that what you write (and do) goes out into the world and changes things, even if you yourself can't be a particularly great person all the time. Card's early books have a number of strong and influential female characters, as well as the only semi-positive portrayal of a gay man. His later books, especially those silly Home/Earth ones in that series that just goes on and on seem to be a bit more patriarchal. Maybe he's just gotten into that strong-Christlike-male-saves-the-world rut and can't think of anything else. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts In-Reply-To: <001601bde078$9b6c3820$b18dfbd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is a pretty horrendous news. I think if this business catches up, there will be demands to UN to abolish these things as a torture device. Concerning the idea in general, I think a better way to prevent rape would be to put the chastity belts on men. The same concerning the marital infidelity and stuff. Maybe if Hillary used one on her husband, he would not be in danger of losing his job now (a bad joke, I know, but oh well :) By the way, talking about mechanical anti-rape devices. I am reading Snow Crash right now, and there is something called "dentata" that Y.T. is wearing exactly for that purpose. It is not elaborated on what exactly it is, or how it works, but it's mentioned several times as an anti-rape device. I would imagine it as an implementation of the medieval concept of "vagina dentata" -- a vagina with teeth that bites off the penis, or something pretty damn close. Marina P.S. Concerning the chastity belts manufacturing -- honestly it sounds a bit like "The Daily Mirror" kind of stuff. At least I surely hope so. On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > Joyce > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > >Sunday. > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > >saying. > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > >as ringworms. > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > >expected to balloon. > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > >situation.'' > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > >maritial relations. > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > I was wondering who might think that this may help, because, it may > help deter rape. Surely it isnt like the Dark Ages when women were forced > to wear such contraptions. There is more of a choice involved (I would > hope so anyway). Surely any type of rape deterrent is better than nothing. I disagree. First of all, putting yourself in a constant danger of infection -- not even talking about physical discomfort -- can be pretty damaging for one's health as well, and not only the phisical part of it. Second, it is not going to really prevent rape. Rape is not about sexual gratification, it's about power and the ability to humiliate another person. Do you really think that a man who had decided to rape a woman and has actually gone to the point when he discovers the "chastity belt", after all that trouble would change his mind and let her go? I really doubt that. For one thing, there are other ways of penetration besides the vagine and anus ( unless the modern promoters of CB plan on plugging and sealing off all the other orifices of the woman's body). Moreover, even if the rapist is picky enough to abandon the idea of intercourse because he cannot enter the vagina, he is very likely to be frustrated enough to demonstrate his power over the victim by other forms of violence. Like, a murder. Third, if rape is to be prevented by any measures possible, including the ones that would jeopardise the woman's comfort and freedom, rather than locking up the woman's genitals, it would be easier to lock up the woman herself. She cannot get raped is she never leaves the house "without a male relative". Which is exactly what Taliban made a law in Afghanistan. Meanwhile, Iranian government (who were the baddest guys before that) "protects" women by requiring them to cover their faces. Cause "if a man cannot see the woman, he would not get aroused, so she'll be safe from rape". As you see, Singapore is entering a good company. All the worst things that have ever been done to women were always done to "protect" them, most often from rape, but also from "looseness", or from "excessive knowledge that makes them infertile". That woman in Singapore who owns the chastity-belt making company could as well start marketing a home-kit for genital mutilation. That would prevent rape, too -- by eliminating the opening. Marina > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > Joyce > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > >Sunday. > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > >saying. > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > >as ringworms. > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > >expected to balloon. > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > >situation.'' > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > >maritial relations. > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:51:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Pi -Reply -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Erm, I dont think I mentioned sales figures, but I think it was popular at the time to write novels that were tragic in order to bring about a morale to the story. Actually, it has been a while since I read any text that specifically pointed why he shifted his theme to tragedy, but, as I recall, as an English Major, I read ALOT of essays on Hardy and others of the time period. I may be a little foggy on the facts but I also remember having read about his loss of faith, etc. Like I mentioned before, Tess, when I first read it (I was about 15) I thought the story was thoroughly depressing. Now that I am a little older(wiser?) I see it a little differently. For the time period, to write a novel about loss of faith as in the character Angel and in the novel Jude the Obscure, to write about infidelity in such an unusually refreshing way IMHO. A romance novelist that says at the end of the story to his true love that he doesnt believe he will see her in the after life is pretty interesting to my atheistic sensibilities. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > What is your source about Hardy's big change in themes? Not that I > doubt you, but it seems so strange that a total and career-long > transition could be made just for sales figures. Would the change in > endings neccessarily indicate a change in themes? > > (A little later) > > Actually, I have just looked up an article on Hardy and Schopenhauer > (www.worldramp.net/~snag/schopen.html) which tells me that after his > first novel, FFTMC, which was written in his very early twenties (that > amazes me, speaking as someone who could not produce a major novel in my > early twenties...) he lost his religion and his sense of joie de vivre, > as it were. Influenced by that dratted Schopenhauer (me, I don't know > Schopenhaer from Hume, to tell the truth) he decided that Fate and > Chance govern the physical universe and that the main conflict in life > is between individual reason and the disordered universe. (I'm lifting > straight from the essay, no brilliance of mine) The essay continues, > remarking that he veered between determinism (my personal least favorite > philosophy of all time) and fatalism for the rest of his life. I infer, > from my reading of Hardy, that he believed in peace in the grave and not > a heck of a lot else. (The essay, although clunkily written, is > very informative and well-argued, and no I didn't know any of this stuff > even an hour ago myself) > > So anyway, determinism and fatalism are philosophies I have spent much > of my college education trying to disprove, with mixed success. They're > splendid philosophies to have if you like them, since they're really > hard to disprove or viably challege except on the Pascal's Wager kind of > method. However, since I'm a very poliical person--hence feminism and > this list--I can't stand either. Or rather, since I'm a political > person and I have this very academic, cranky approach to philosophy, I > get all in a lather about it. Not that I think you can't like Hardy and > be political. > > Speaking of which, how about Hardy's women? And I'd like to know what > caused Hardy's loss of faith. Surely Schopenhauer, persuasive as he may > be, can't explain all of it. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:00:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, that would be wonderful if the pesky little devils kept the belts on, which I doubt seriously. Vagina dentatas actually does sound promising. The only way I would perceive it as a torture device is if it was forced on women, though I dont know if that could be done, it is better than being gang raped which is what happened to those women. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu (trying to keep an open mind in a world gone mad) On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > This is a pretty horrendous news. I think if this business catches up, > there will be demands to UN to abolish these things as a torture device. > Concerning the idea in general, I think a better way to prevent rape would > be to put the chastity belts on men. The same concerning the marital > infidelity and stuff. Maybe if Hillary used one on her husband, he would > not be in danger of losing his job now (a bad joke, I know, but oh well :) > > By the way, talking about mechanical anti-rape devices. I am reading Snow > Crash right now, and there is something called "dentata" that Y.T. is > wearing exactly for that purpose. It is not elaborated on what exactly it > is, or how it works, but it's mentioned several times as an anti-rape > device. I would imagine it as an implementation of the medieval concept of > "vagina dentata" -- a vagina with teeth that bites off the penis, or > something pretty damn close. > > Marina > > P.S. Concerning the chastity belts manufacturing -- honestly it sounds a > bit like "The Daily Mirror" kind of stuff. At least I surely hope so. > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > Joyce > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > >Sunday. > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > >saying. > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > >as ringworms. > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > >expected to balloon. > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > >situation.'' > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > >maritial relations. > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:20:43 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Locking up women is better than locking up her genitals? I dont see that either one is better, rape should be deterred as often and as much as possible I would think (whatever works works). As for rape being about power over women, that was my point I thought. A woman would be able to lock herself into the belt and hide the key. No way can she be better off locked up, men can come in and rape the women anyway as has happened to many jailed women. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > > > I was wondering who might think that this may help, because, it may > > help deter rape. Surely it isnt like the Dark Ages when women were forced > > to wear such contraptions. There is more of a choice involved (I would > > hope so anyway). Surely any type of rape deterrent is better than nothing. > > I disagree. First of all, putting yourself in a constant danger of > infection -- not even talking about physical discomfort -- can be pretty > damaging for one's health as well, and not only the phisical part of it. > > Second, it is not going to really prevent rape. Rape is not about sexual > gratification, it's about power and the ability to humiliate another > person. Do you really think that a man who had decided to rape a woman > and has actually gone to the point when he discovers the "chastity belt", > after all that trouble would change his mind and let her go? I really > doubt that. For one thing, there are other ways of penetration besides > the vagine and anus ( unless the modern promoters of CB plan on plugging > and sealing off all the other orifices of the woman's body). Moreover, > even if the rapist is picky enough to abandon the idea of intercourse > because he cannot enter the vagina, he is very likely to be frustrated > enough to demonstrate his power over the victim by other forms of > violence. Like, a murder. > > Third, if rape is to be prevented by any measures possible, including the > ones that would jeopardise the woman's comfort and freedom, rather than > locking up the woman's genitals, it would be easier to lock up the woman > herself. She cannot get raped is she never leaves the house "without a > male relative". Which is exactly what Taliban made a law in Afghanistan. > Meanwhile, Iranian government (who were the baddest guys before that) > "protects" women by requiring them to cover their faces. Cause "if a > man cannot see the woman, he would not get aroused, so she'll be safe from > rape". > > As you see, Singapore is entering a good company. All the worst things > that have ever been done to women were always done to "protect" them, most > often from rape, but also from "looseness", or from "excessive knowledge > that makes them infertile". That woman in Singapore who owns the > chastity-belt making company could as well start marketing a home-kit for > genital mutilation. That would prevent rape, too -- by eliminating the > opening. > > Marina > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > > > Joyce > > > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > > >Sunday. > > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > > >saying. > > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > > >as ringworms. > > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > > >expected to balloon. > > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > > >situation.'' > > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > > >maritial relations. > > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:45:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/98 12:21:26 AM, you wrote: <> Something is missing here... something about personal freedom. About not being afraid. About not handing over power. This is really scary. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:50:47 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit coming back here. had a visceral response. been raped. probably a lot of you have, or have had sex when you really didn't want to. but locking yourself into a device that can harm you is an awful and wrong alternative to my mind. As Marina (I think) pointed out: rape is not about sex, it is about power, and some stainless steel device seems to me to be a terrific anger-maker. Aha, you think you can keep me out? We'll see bitch. It is a male problem. Men have to come to terms with this. And a chastity belt is wrong message. This is not the right forum for this. I'm going to go back to Jungian Deep Fem and think about it. We are here involved with the fantastic and the wonderous and the feminism that we can inculcate via the expanded mind. Apologies if I'm out of line. Care about this. simmering down phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:55:18 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Pi -Reply -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/15/98 4:47:27 PM, you wrote: <> This would be an appropriate question for a really nifty discussion group called Gaslight that I enjoy best of the ones I indulge in. Looking at the ghost stories, occult, bizarre and interesting lit from 1800-1919, with a heavy dose of Victorian. Bunch of fun egg heads from everywhere. Get to them through http://www.mtroyal.ab.ca/gaslight/ It runs out of U Alberta, Canada, and has subscribers lots of places. A very articulate and fun group. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:22:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Pi -Reply -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Victorian times... a running towards occult things, feeling of bumps... a mixed-up time, but questioning one's faith was allowed, was popular. Science had emerged. Hardy is more complicated than just looking towards a market for his fiction. I'm biased and admit it. He is one whose books I would grab in a fire, so to speak. Someone (Joyce? please correct if wrong) why write a novel if there was no hope presented.... well, partly and correctly (IMHO) to state something for those who have no voice. That's what writers do. Tess is one of my favorite reads. And she always frustrates me, and annoys me, and hurts me... but that was how it WAS. It is a window on a world that is gone by, whatever residual resonances feminist webs feel. And I thank Thomas Hardy that she hurts me, that she was so real I believe I understood her. And Am Her. lightly, lightly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:39:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Fear is relative to the situation a person is in. Freedom is also relative. If you live in a country where your personal freedoms are in question anyway whatever it takes to keep yourself safe is good in my book. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 9/16/98 12:21:26 AM, you wrote: > > < lock herself into the belt and hide the key. No way can she be better off > locked up, men can come in and rape the women anyway as has happened to > many jailed women.>> > > Something is missing here... something about personal freedom. About not > being afraid. About not handing over power. This is really scary. > > phoebe > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <791fe533.35ff0b67@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Actually I agree devices can be harmful, but isnt rape as well? Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > coming back here. had a visceral response. been raped. probably a lot of > you have, or have had sex when you really didn't want to. > > but locking yourself into a device that can harm you is an awful and wrong > alternative to my mind. > > As Marina (I think) pointed out: rape is not about sex, it is about power, and > some stainless steel device seems to me to be a terrific anger-maker. Aha, > you think you can keep me out? We'll see bitch. > > It is a male problem. Men have to come to terms with this. And a chastity > belt is wrong message. > > This is not the right forum for this. I'm going to go back to Jungian Deep > Fem and think about it. We are here involved with the fantastic and the > wonderous and the feminism that we can inculcate via the expanded mind. > > Apologies if I'm out of line. Care about this. > > simmering down > phoebe > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:07:43 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: OT Chastity Belt Redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bertina, it has been said, but i will repeat it. fear is not relative when it comes to rape. go ahead buy that belt and wear it. tell me if you feel safer. women having......weapons, devices, laws, husbands/lovers, mothers/sisters, solitude, abstinence, strength, voices, choices, you name it. NONE of these "protections" have stopped rape. Not today, not in the past and not in the future. what WILL stop rape is men. men stopping. that will stop rape. and while that happens, women need to be FREE. i believe that is what some folks are trying to say. at minimum it is what _I_ need to say. now i am willing to follow phoebe's recommendation to get back to SFF/Feminism. donna -----Original Message----- From: Bertina Miller To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Handmaid's Tale >Fear is relative to the situation a person is in. Freedom is also >relative. If you live in a country where your personal freedoms are in >question anyway whatever it takes to keep yourself safe is good in my >book. > >Bertina >bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > >On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > >> In a message dated 9/16/98 12:21:26 AM, you wrote: >> >> <> lock herself into the belt and hide the key. No way can she be better off >> locked up, men can come in and rape the women anyway as has happened to >> many jailed women.>> >> >> Something is missing here... something about personal freedom. About not >> being afraid. About not handing over power. This is really scary. >> >> phoebe >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:02:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: schant Subject: OT:Chastity Belt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "vagina dentata" comment brought to mind a short story I read ages ago called something like "The Lincoln-Prewett Anti-Rape Device". It's about a group of American women dropped into Vietnam during the war. Their mission was to use the device to kill enemy men by allowing themselves to be raped. Sounds gruesome, but I remember it as having quite a light touch and a certain amount of wry humour, and making some interesting feminist points about rape. And of course, now that I want to read it again I can't remember who wrote it or where I saw it! Any ideas? Cheers SC -- "Take what you want", said God. "Take it - and pay for it." Old Spanish proverb, quoted in "South Riding" by Winifred Holtby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 04:38:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: posting limited info when replying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could members of the list take more care in snipping messages and only reposting the portion of the message they are replying to, rather than reposting the whole text? It's good netiquitte, and makes reading much more rewarding, IMO. TIA. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 06:21:45 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Thomas Hardy; O.S. Card Content-Type: text/plain About Hardy: I'll admit I've never read his novels, but I've been a fan of his poetry for a long time, and from that I get a sense of him as a disenchanted, but deeply humane person. Definitely ahead of his time in a way. I think Americans will have a greater tolerance for tragedy after we have another few centuries of history. We still have the hopefullness of youth. About Card: I know a lot of writers who dislike what they see as overinterpretations of their work, particularly psychologizing or ideological interpretations of it. I don't see that as a patriarchal response, just an emotional one by someone who feels very attached to the writing they dug up out of their soul. I don't mean that criticism is a bad thing, just that one shouldn't expect the author to be terribly grateful that his or her "real meaning" has been dissected out -- especially when that meaning is offensive to the author in question (which happens a lot in Post-Structuralist critiques). Generally, though, it's a dumb move for an author to respond to criticism. Just nod, smile, and complain about it later to your significant other. Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:46:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Pi -Reply -Reply -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Now, novels that you would grab in a fire--that in itself could be a whole thread...I wouldn't grab Hardy in a fire, although I would buy his books new, and at today's prices that's practically the same thing. It's not so much that I dislike reading Hardy, it's just that I really really don't agree with where he's going. Not because it's not happy, but because of the reasons he has for not being happy. Also Return of the Native, for example, really makes me claustrophobic. THat's funny because it's set on spacious moors and all that, but the way Hardy describes them you feel you couldn't move a step. I do think it's fascinating how primitive the culture of the moors feels. For better or for worse, Hardy does stay with one. It's not that Hardy's depressing, it's his rationale for being depressing. I like depressing novels, in the main. Although I admit to a bias toward the comic, because it's hard to write plausible comedy, since life isn't very comic. I mean, it's hard to write really grown up happy or comic novels. When Dickens is happy, for example--and Dickens I would grab in a fire, at least Bleak House--his stories take on a kid's book feel, a little. (I realize this is off-topic, I'll stop posting on the subject; I also realize that I am having very casual opinions about great writers. But on the other hand, I feel somewhat that if a book is truly great, you can discuss it sometimes in a rough-and-ready fashion, as you might a movie or television. A great book lives on so many levels, and to me one of those levels is the level where you can be cross or silly. So anyway, I'm not always callow, really.) So anyway, to sum up my feelings on Hardy, I recognize he's a great writer--honestly, I do--and I read him voluntarily and yet I just don't like him. Surely everyone has a book or writer like that. I suppose what I need is a word that conveys something you want to do that is none the less not fun. Something sort of like challenging but not quite. Hardy is mentally nutritious or something like that. I will check out that discussion group on this kind of thing. And I will reread Jude...Thanks to everyone for the information and stuff. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:21:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Thomas Hardy; O.S. Card -Reply Re interpreting writers's work... I think there's a difference between trying to figure out a meaning for a story--especially Card's parables--and pestering the author with your "correct" interpretation...Everyone tries to understand things in some way, it's a natural human function. When I read a story with an apparently random set of images, I try to either understand connections between them or understand why they are random. As well, a book might have a different effect in the world than its author intended; studying that effect is important but not the same as studying the author's intent, which is pretty hard to figure out anyway. Joseph Conrad always seems like a good example of this...When I taught literature in CHina, I was very grateful that we were so bogged down by the official schedule that we didn't get to him, since I have thought a lot and with little satisfaction about how to teach Heart of Darkness in terms of race. Some years I prefer tragedy, some comedy; and every time it's for a different reason. I like to think I'm moving toward an overall understanding, but I respect the process. I don't think it's immature to prefer one or the other, as long as you're really trying to think and understand. It's easy to say the comedy is less mature than tragedy, if by comedy you mean American-style sitcoms. But then on that level you can argue that comedy is more mature than tragedy and point to gothic pop music and the poetry one writes at fifteen. But for example Robertson Davies is a comic writer, and I'd argue that he's pretty good. Europa, Europa is a comic movie, in part, but it's about Nazi Germany--obviously it's not comic on the same level as say the Simpsons. Just as Jude the Obscure is not tragic in the same way that a Nirvana song tries to be. I'm a structuralist myself, at least most days. :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In regard to Hilary putting the belt on Bill, the consensus among my horsebreeding friends is that he's a great candidate for gelding--really let him focus his abilities on the job at hand. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 "That All May Read!" My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them! >>> Marina 09/15 12:30 PM >>> This is a pretty horrendous news. I think if this business catches up, there will be demands to UN to abolish these things as a torture device. Concerning the idea in general, I think a better way to prevent rape would be to put the chastity belts on men. The same concerning the marital infidelity and stuff. Maybe if Hillary used one on her husband, he would not be in danger of losing his job now (a bad joke, I know, but oh well :) By the way, talking about mechanical anti-rape devices. I am reading Snow Crash right now, and there is something called "dentata" that Y.T. is wearing exactly for that purpose. It is not elaborated on what exactly it is, or how it works, but it's mentioned several times as an anti-rape device. I would imagine it as an implementation of the medieval concept of "vagina dentata" -- a vagina with teeth that bites off the penis, or something pretty damn close. Marina P.S. Concerning the chastity belts manufacturing -- honestly it sounds a bit like "The Daily Mirror" kind of stuff. At least I surely hope so. On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > Joyce > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > >Sunday. > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > >saying. > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > >as ringworms. > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > >expected to balloon. > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > >situation.'' > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > >maritial relations. > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:33:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: le guin commencement address? Comments: To: femsfweb@uic.edu, David Lisle , feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey david & everyone else - does anyone know where to get le guin's commencement address at bryn mawr? any thoughts? email david lisle directly at davidlyl@juno.com as well as posting to the listserve - thanks Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org ** No More Sig Files! ** No More Witty Slogans! Save Bandwidth! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:28:04 -0500 From: David Lisle To: lquilter@igc.apc.org Hi, Laura. Thanks for a great site on Le Guin. I'm trying to locate a wonderful commencement address she delivered at Bryn Mawr a few years back. By any chance would you know where I might find it? I need it for my Senior Thesis. Thank you very much. David Lisle _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:53:33 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know this is way off topic, but I can't let what's been done in Congress go unchallenged. *President* Bush was known by the media and congress to have had a long-standing sexual relationship with an aide. It's referenced in the book "The Media Circus" which came out some years ago. It was ignored by congress, it was ignored by the media. It was known during Senator Dole's candidacy that an adulterous affair had ended his first marriage. *Nothing* of this was published during the media's castigatin of a Clinton campaign manager for adultery. President Clinton, because of his advocacy of women's rights, has been given the same treatment as Kelly Flynn, the woman expelled from the Air Force for sex with a married man. The Air Force and the Republicans regarded adultry as trivial untill they had another agenda. I can't believe this whole thing has been allowed to reach this level. Kathleen On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Marsha Valance wrote: > In regard to Hilary putting the belt on Bill, the consensus > among my horsebreeding friends is that he's a great > candidate for gelding--really let him focus his abilities on > the job at hand. > > Marsha Valance > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically > Handicapped > 813 West Wells Street > Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 > > > "That All May Read!" > > My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them! > > >>> Marina 09/15 12:30 PM >>> > This is a pretty horrendous news. I think if this business catches up, > there will be demands to UN to abolish these things as a torture device. > Concerning the idea in general, I think a better way to prevent rape would > be to put the chastity belts on men. The same concerning the marital > infidelity and stuff. Maybe if Hillary used one on her husband, he would > not be in danger of losing his job now (a bad joke, I know, > but oh well :) > > By the way, talking about mechanical anti-rape devices. I am reading Snow > Crash right now, and there is something called "dentata" that Y.T. is > wearing exactly for that purpose. It is not elaborated on what exactly it > is, or how it works, but it's mentioned several times as an anti-rape > device. I would imagine it as an implementation of the medieval concept of > "vagina dentata" -- a vagina with teeth that bites off the penis, or > something pretty damn close. > > Marina > > P.S. Concerning the chastity belts manufacturing -- honestly it sounds a > bit like "The Daily Mirror" kind of stuff. At least I surely hope so. > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > Joyce > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > >Sunday. > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > >saying. > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > >as ringworms. > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > >expected to balloon. > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > >situation.'' > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > >marital relations. > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:34:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: the hopefulness of youth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >I think Americans will have a greater tolerance for tragedy after we have > another few centuries of history. We still have the hopefullness of youth. I don't know if I think this is a function of age; I think it's more a function of national character. There's a common theme in SF (I just finished David Brin's second Uplift trilogy, so it's on my mind) that "humans" will be/are different from the local aliens because of their refreshing, disrespectful, innovative, charge-right-into-it, no-respect-for-authority, jumping all over the place kind of attitude. This has lately been sounding to me *exactly* like the way Americans think of themselves, but is it as meaningful for those cultures where tradition and respect for old age are more important values than eternal newness and the primacy of startups? jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:30:54 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: the hopefulness of youth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/98 10:35:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jss@PA.DEC.COM writes: << the primacy of startups >> Wow. I have been looking all over for a way to say this, and you did it perfectly. I used to work for a County permit office, and would just go crazy because people who bought land, lived on it, paid their taxes and retired had no voice: only developers, new comers did. So people lost their neighborhoods to 'the primacy of startups". Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:51:35 MST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Nicola Griffith's _Slow river_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just finished reading Nicola Griffith's "Slow River" which, I understand, was mentioned on the list some time ago. For those who haven't read it, it's a bleak, bitter "tale of the near future" about a daughter of a gene-engineering family which specialises in purpose-designed microorganisms for clearing up sewage - the theme of sewage both real and figurative runs through the entire book. The book opens with the protagonist (Lore) "naked and covered in blood (p. 325)" after her escape from kidnappers whose ransom demands her family had unaccountably rejected. It charts, in separate strands, her move into an exploitative, lesbian relationship and the growth which allows her to break free of this and the burden of past abuse. To isolate the multiple strands, the author alternates the POV from first to third person - which might seem confusing but isn't. Griffith's characterization, as in "Ammonite", is often well done; with a few words she produces well-rounded, sharply defined characters - although the female character I found most sympathetic, Magyar, appeared less well-defined in spite of the importance of her growing involvement with Lore. The "villains" - Lore's mother and sister - play a major (out-of-sight) role in the story, but their characters are hardly developed at all. I've seen the book described as "cyberpunk" and even a "scientific mystery", but the cyberpunk and science are too sketchily defined and the mystery is too predictable for this to be true. It's an excellent study of abusive relationships, in Lore's family and by her lesbian partner-in-crime (theft, prostitution, pornography etc). Some reviews mentioned "gratuitous" lesbian sex, but I found the dreary sex essential for an understanding of the exploitive relationship. That said, I found it a curiously uninvolving book; at the end I found I didn't particularly care what the future held for the protagonist. In addition the book projected such a sense of despair that even I - a naturally buoyant person - felt depressed. Which brings me to the point of this rambling note: I didn't agree with most of Pat Mathew's original posting but I did agree with her later comment that > Just a wish that someone would triumph > other than by just having a lover. AJ ______________________________ ajhs@usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:55:12 MST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: OT:Chastity Belt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I once saw what was alleged to be a chastity belt that had been used in Turkey of all places. Unlike the "traditional" ones (which I think are largely Victorian fakes), this chastity belt looked like an old-fashioned pair of "bloomers" but made of interlinked steel rings rather like coarse chainmail; it was supposedly padded with washleather when worn. In use the device was put on like a pair of panties and then locked at the waist. Although baggy at the butt, it fitted closely at the thighs and must have been hideously uncomfortable to wear! AJ ____________________________ ajhs@usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:23:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: le guin commencement address? Comments: To: davidlyl@juno.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura Quilter wrote: > hey david & everyone else - does anyone know where to get le guin's > commencement address at bryn mawr? any thoughts? email david lisle > directly at davidlyl@juno.com as well as posting to the listserve - thanks Yes, it's included in her essay collection *Dancing at the Edge of the World*, which has recently been reprinted, so it should be in bookstores. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Faith and the Muse -- Elyria "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:00:53 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: OT:Chastity Belt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to be indelicate, but was it unlocked for excretory functions? And did the poor thing have to sleep-or try to sleep-in it? Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:03:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would agree if that could actually protect the women. However, I have witnessed the same kind of riots (with gang rapes and everything) in my own home town. And I can guarantee you that in the conditions of this kind of gang rapes -- when women are ambushed on the streets, stripped of their clothes, and trown in the middle of raging mob -- chastity belts would not have helped. The rapists would have cut off (or torn off, for that matter) women's legs to remove the belts, if they had to, and raped them after that while they were still alive. I personally doubt that this is any "better" than regular gang rape. In my opinion (and experience) mechanical devices protect women no more than the law requiring them cover their faces. Except maybe one mechanical device -- an automatic weapon and some training to use it. Concerning the chastity belts, I just read The History of Women by Rosalind Miles, where she spends some time talking about those things and how they affected lives and health of women. It really seems very little better than genital mutilation. Imagine yourself in an iron diaper than cannot be taken off or changed, for months. About the freedom of choice to use them, such thing might exist only in US and Western Europe, the places where women are not going to use them anyway. In most of other countries women do not have a say about the clothes they wear (which are chosen and bought by men) let alone some anti-rape devices. If chastity belts hit the market, the first (and only ones) who would buy them would be fathers of teenaged daughters and jealous husbands. Just think about it -- considering who is going to pay for the belt, who do you think would have the key to it? Finally, I can bet that once these things become available, there will be one more reason to blame the victim for getting raped -- her own fault, should have worn "protection". Chastity belts are no more protective of women than "purdah" - the body scarf without a woman will be stoned to death in Afghanistan. In fact it's much worse, because of all the medical consequenses. Marina On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > Well, that would be wonderful if the pesky little devils kept the belts > on, which I doubt seriously. Vagina dentatas actually does sound > promising. The only way I would perceive it as a torture device is if it > was forced on women, though I dont know if that could be done, it is > better than being gang raped which is what happened to those women. > > Bertina > bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > (trying to keep an open mind in a world gone mad) > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > > > This is a pretty horrendous news. I think if this business catches up, > > there will be demands to UN to abolish these things as a torture device. > > Concerning the idea in general, I think a better way to prevent rape would > > be to put the chastity belts on men. The same concerning the marital > > infidelity and stuff. Maybe if Hillary used one on her husband, he would > > not be in danger of losing his job now (a bad joke, I know, but oh well :) > > > > By the way, talking about mechanical anti-rape devices. I am reading Snow > > Crash right now, and there is something called "dentata" that Y.T. is > > wearing exactly for that purpose. It is not elaborated on what exactly it > > is, or how it works, but it's mentioned several times as an anti-rape > > device. I would imagine it as an implementation of the medieval concept of > > "vagina dentata" -- a vagina with teeth that bites off the penis, or > > something pretty damn close. > > > > Marina > > > > P.S. Concerning the chastity belts manufacturing -- honestly it sounds a > > bit like "The Daily Mirror" kind of stuff. At least I surely hope so. > > > > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > > > Joyce > > > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > > >Sunday. > > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > > >saying. > > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > > >as ringworms. > > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > > >expected to balloon. > > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > > >situation.'' > > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > > >maritial relations. > > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > is selling at the time." > > Naomi Wolf > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:25:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I think we agree on basic points. Women should have better guarantees of safety than a medieval torture device. What I am trying to say is that in the places when a woman would need that kind of protection, she is very unlikely to be the owner of the key. Besides, a strip of metal is _never_ going to stop a rapist. It might spoil a romantic encounter, but not rape. Because rape as a tool of humiliation does not require a genital contact. There is a dozen of other ways to do that. And in the course of a riot, as I said, the rapists are more likely to remove the chastity belt together with the woman's legs than back off. I hate to say this, but I spent five years of my life trying to avoid getting gang raped by the crowds of crazy armed men wondering about the city. I was lucky, a lot of my friends were not. For me, this topic is not some TV-news, but a part of real life that I lived through. And all I can say is that this anti-rape chastity belt idea is the most ridiculous, moronic crap I have heard in years. Effectiveness-wise, they could as well sell magic charms for "protection". Soory for getting emotional. Marina On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > Locking up women is better than locking up her genitals? I dont see that > either one is better, rape should be deterred as often and as much as > possible I would think (whatever works works). As for rape being about > power over women, that was my point I thought. A woman would be able to > lock herself into the belt and hide the key. No way can she be better off > locked up, men can come in and rape the women anyway as has happened to > many jailed women. > > Bertina > bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > > > > > I was wondering who might think that this may help, because, it may > > > help deter rape. Surely it isnt like the Dark Ages when women were forced > > > to wear such contraptions. There is more of a choice involved (I would > > > hope so anyway). Surely any type of rape deterrent is better than nothing. > > > > I disagree. First of all, putting yourself in a constant danger of > > infection -- not even talking about physical discomfort -- can be pretty > > damaging for one's health as well, and not only the phisical part of it. > > > > Second, it is not going to really prevent rape. Rape is not about sexual > > gratification, it's about power and the ability to humiliate another > > person. Do you really think that a man who had decided to rape a woman > > and has actually gone to the point when he discovers the "chastity belt", > > after all that trouble would change his mind and let her go? I really > > doubt that. For one thing, there are other ways of penetration besides > > the vagine and anus ( unless the modern promoters of CB plan on plugging > > and sealing off all the other orifices of the woman's body). Moreover, > > even if the rapist is picky enough to abandon the idea of intercourse > > because he cannot enter the vagina, he is very likely to be frustrated > > enough to demonstrate his power over the victim by other forms of > > violence. Like, a murder. > > > > Third, if rape is to be prevented by any measures possible, including the > > ones that would jeopardise the woman's comfort and freedom, rather than > > locking up the woman's genitals, it would be easier to lock up the woman > > herself. She cannot get raped is she never leaves the house "without a > > male relative". Which is exactly what Taliban made a law in Afghanistan. > > Meanwhile, Iranian government (who were the baddest guys before that) > > "protects" women by requiring them to cover their faces. Cause "if a > > man cannot see the woman, he would not get aroused, so she'll be safe from > > rape". > > > > As you see, Singapore is entering a good company. All the worst things > > that have ever been done to women were always done to "protect" them, most > > often from rape, but also from "looseness", or from "excessive knowledge > > that makes them infertile". That woman in Singapore who owns the > > chastity-belt making company could as well start marketing a home-kit for > > genital mutilation. That would prevent rape, too -- by eliminating the > > opening. > > > > Marina > > > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > > > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > > > > > Joyce > > > > > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > > > >Sunday. > > > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > > > >saying. > > > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > > > >as ringworms. > > > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > > > >expected to balloon. > > > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > > > >situation.'' > > > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > > > >maritial relations. > > > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > is selling at the time." > > Naomi Wolf > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:43:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Keith wrote: > President Clinton, because of his advocacy of women's rights, has been > given the same treatment as Kelly Flynn, the woman expelled from the Air > Force for sex with a married man. The Air Force and the Republicans > regarded adultry as trivial untill they had another agenda. I can't > believe this whole thing has been allowed to reach this level. > > Kathleen I agree. In fact, after reading Starr's report, I really think the whole thing is a setup. All these months, they tried to picture the President as some kind of dirty sexual maniac. This narrative of his relations with Monica does not look like a crime. It looks like a love story, her being in love, his trying to do "the right thing" and failing, and I feel sorry for both of them. Concerning him "lying", if the guy told about his affair the first time he was asked, especially in realtion to a totally different matter, he would be worse than a liar, he would be an idiot. It was simply a no-win situation, and if I did not believe in "conservative conspiracy" I sure do now. If he had to get busted, that should have happened for what he had done to Paula Jones. Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not be. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:58:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT:Chastity Belt Comments: To: Heather Law In-Reply-To: <36003515.841@mc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Heather Law wrote: > Not to be indelicate, but was it unlocked for excretory functions? And > did the poor thing have to sleep-or try to sleep-in it? > Carol > It had two little holes at the bottom, with sharp, spiky edges, meant to let out the excrement. Even if it worked for the liquid parts of it, there was no way for the woman to wash or even wipe herself. There was no opening for menstrual blood, either, and the belt was so close-fitting that sanitary napkins were out of question. The woman's husband had the key, so for as long as he was away -- even for years -- she had to wear it without ever being able to take it off. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:38:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had sworn not to get involved in this dicussion, because I don't see what relevance it has to Feminist SF. The only way I can think to bring it back is to fantasize about my own version of a chastity belt... one that a woman herself chooses to wear, that a potential rapist can't see, but that knocks him unconscious and cuts his you-know-what off. Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree totally. Now if we could only stomp out this blaze by voting totally democratic in Novemvber to get rid of the republicans that are only interested in Clinton's blood. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Keith wrote: > I know this is way off topic, but I can't let what's been done in Congress > go unchallenged. *President* Bush was known by the media and congress to > have had a long-standing sexual relationship with an aide. It's > referenced in the book "The Media Circus" which came out some years ago. > It was ignored by congress, it was ignored by the media. > > It was known during Senator Dole's candidacy that an adulterous affair had > ended his first marriage. *Nothing* of this was published during the > media's castigatin of a Clinton campaign manager for adultery. > > President Clinton, because of his advocacy of women's rights, has been > given the same treatment as Kelly Flynn, the woman expelled from the Air > Force for sex with a married man. The Air Force and the Republicans > regarded adultry as trivial untill they had another agenda. I can't > believe this whole thing has been allowed to reach this level. > > Kathleen > > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Marsha Valance wrote: > > > In regard to Hilary putting the belt on Bill, the consensus > > among my horsebreeding friends is that he's a great > > candidate for gelding--really let him focus his abilities on > > the job at hand. > > > > Marsha Valance > > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically > > Handicapped > > 813 West Wells Street > > Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 > > > > > > "That All May Read!" > > > > My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them! > > > > >>> Marina 09/15 12:30 PM >>> > > This is a pretty horrendous news. I think if this business catches up, > > there will be demands to UN to abolish these things as a torture device. > > Concerning the idea in general, I think a better way to prevent rape would > > be to put the chastity belts on men. The same concerning the marital > > infidelity and stuff. Maybe if Hillary used one on her husband, he would > > not be in danger of losing his job now (a bad joke, I know, > > but oh well :) > > > > By the way, talking about mechanical anti-rape devices. I am reading Snow > > Crash right now, and there is something called "dentata" that Y.T. is > > wearing exactly for that purpose. It is not elaborated on what exactly it > > is, or how it works, but it's mentioned several times as an anti-rape > > device. I would imagine it as an implementation of the medieval concept of > > "vagina dentata" -- a vagina with teeth that bites off the penis, or > > something pretty damn close. > > > > Marina > > > > P.S. Concerning the chastity belts manufacturing -- honestly it sounds a > > bit like "The Daily Mirror" kind of stuff. At least I > > surely hope so. > > > > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > > > Joyce > > > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper > > > >reported on Sunday. > > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > > >saying. > > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > > >as ringworms. > > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > > >expected to balloon. > > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > > >situation.'' > > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > > >maritial relations. > > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > is selling at the time." > > Naomi Wolf > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:57:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well I stand corrected, but correct me again if Im wrong that in the nations that use the purdah, do they not abuse, rape and molest these women who do not follow the rules? Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > I would agree if that could actually protect the women. However, I > have witnessed the same kind of riots (with gang rapes and everything) in > my own home town. And I can guarantee you that in the conditions of this > kind of gang rapes -- when women are ambushed on the streets, stripped of > their clothes, and trown in the middle of raging mob -- chastity belts > would not have helped. The rapists would have cut off (or torn off, for > that matter) women's legs to remove the belts, if they had to, and raped > them after that while they were still alive. I personally doubt > that this is any "better" than regular gang rape. > > In my opinion (and experience) mechanical devices protect women > no more than the law requiring them cover their faces. Except maybe one > mechanical device -- an automatic weapon and some training to use it. > > Concerning the chastity belts, I just read The History of Women by > Rosalind Miles, where she spends some time talking about those things and > how they affected lives and health of women. It really seems very little > better than genital mutilation. Imagine yourself in an iron diaper > than cannot be taken off or changed, for months. > > About the freedom of choice to use them, such thing might exist only in US > and Western Europe, the places where women are not going to use them > anyway. In most of other countries women do not have a say > about the clothes they wear (which are chosen and bought by men) let alone > some anti-rape devices. If chastity belts hit the market, the first (and > only ones) who would buy them would be fathers of teenaged daughters and > jealous husbands. > > Just think about it -- considering who is going to pay for the belt, who > do you think would have the key to it? > > Finally, I can bet that once these things become available, there will be > one more reason to blame the victim for getting raped -- her own fault, > should have worn "protection". > > Chastity belts are no more protective of women than "purdah" - the body > scarf without a woman will be stoned to death in Afghanistan. In fact it's > much worse, because of all the medical consequenses. > > Marina > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > > > Well, that would be wonderful if the pesky little devils kept the belts > > on, which I doubt seriously. Vagina dentatas actually does sound > > promising. The only way I would perceive it as a torture device is if it > > was forced on women, though I dont know if that could be done, it is > > better than being gang raped which is what happened to those women. > > > > Bertina > > bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > > (trying to keep an open mind in a world gone mad) > > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > > > > > This is a pretty horrendous news. I think if this business catches up, > > > there will be demands to UN to abolish these things as a torture device. > > > Concerning the idea in general, I think a better way to prevent rape would > > > be to put the chastity belts on men. The same concerning the marital > > > infidelity and stuff. Maybe if Hillary used one on her husband, he would > > > not be in danger of losing his job now (a bad joke, I know, but oh well :) > > > > > > By the way, talking about mechanical anti-rape devices. I am reading Snow > > > Crash right now, and there is something called "dentata" that Y.T. is > > > wearing exactly for that purpose. It is not elaborated on what exactly it > > > is, or how it works, but it's mentioned several times as an anti-rape > > > device. I would imagine it as an implementation of the medieval concept of > > > "vagina dentata" -- a vagina with teeth that bites off the penis, or > > > something pretty damn close. > > > > > > Marina > > > > > > P.S. Concerning the chastity belts manufacturing -- honestly it sounds a > > > bit like "The Daily Mirror" kind of stuff. At least I surely hope so. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > > > > > > > More shades of The Handmaid's Tale > > > > > > > > Joyce > > > > > > > > >Singapore firm plans sale of steel chastity belts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > > > >Sunday. > > > > > Singapore's Sunday Times quoted Creatif Marketing sole > > > > >proprietor Eudora Ong as saying she was targetting husbands who > > > > >suspect their wives of being unfaithful, parents with teenaged > > > > >daughters and women who fear being raped. > > > > > ``I wanted to be the first to introduce them to Singapore. > > > > >Perhaps, there are people who have been hunting for them and > > > > >don't know how or where to get them,'' the daily quoted her as > > > > >saying. > > > > > Singaporeans interviewed by the Sunday Times were incensed > > > > >while a doctor warned that it could cause skin infections such > > > > >as ringworms. > > > > > ``A person needs to be careful when defecating and > > > > >urinating, as traces of these bodily wastes may still be on the > > > > >chastity belt,'' a gynaecologist told the paper. > > > > > Ong said she had secured exclusive distribution deals for > > > > >the belts in Asia and the Middle East where orders have already > > > > >come but she declined to reveal the numbers. > > > > > Judging from the Singaporean comments, local orders are not > > > > >expected to balloon. > > > > > ``It's a ridiculous idea,'' said Fatimah Azimullah, 52, > > > > >president of the Young Women Muslim Association. > > > > > Phyllis Chew, 44, president of the Association of Women for > > > > >Action and Research said: ``I think this is a negative, > > > > >defeatist, unconstructive and anti-social way of solving a bad > > > > >situation.'' > > > > > Dismissing the notion that women could use it as a > > > > >protection against rape, Philip Lee said that a frustrated > > > > >rapist might even kill his victim. > > > > > Men interviewed said that it would be mental and physical > > > > >torture for women to wear the belt and it reflected poorly on > > > > >maritial relations. > > > > > ``If I were that woman (forced to wear the belt), I would > > > > >clamp the chastity belt on his privates,'' Lee, 31, said. > > > > > Chastity belts have gone on sale in Indonesia where ethnic > > > > >Chinese women were raped during riots there in May. > > > > > ^REUTERS@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > > > > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > > > is selling at the time." > > > Naomi Wolf > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:00:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yeah, some consensus on this! Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Keith wrote: > > > President Clinton, because of his advocacy of women's rights, has been > > given the same treatment as Kelly Flynn, the woman expelled from the Air > > Force for sex with a married man. The Air Force and the Republicans > > regarded adultry as trivial untill they had another agenda. I can't > > believe this whole thing has been allowed to reach this level. > > > > Kathleen > > I agree. In fact, after reading Starr's report, I really think the whole > thing is a setup. All these months, they tried to picture the President as > some kind of dirty sexual maniac. This narrative of his relations with > Monica does not look like a crime. It looks like a love story, her > being in love, his trying to do "the right thing" and failing, and I feel > sorry for both of them. Concerning him "lying", if the guy told about his > affair the first time he was asked, especially in realtion to a totally > different matter, he would be worse than a liar, he would be an idiot. It > was simply a no-win situation, and if I did not believe in "conservative > conspiracy" I sure do now. > > If he had to get busted, that should have happened for what he had done to > Paula Jones. Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex > between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not > be. > > IMHO, > Marina > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <199809162138.OAA29824@tarpon.ece.ucdavis.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bonnie using quick wit and judgement to get us back on track! Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Bonnie Gray wrote: > I had sworn not to get involved in this dicussion, because I > don't see what relevance it has to Feminist SF. The only > way I can think to bring it back is to fantasize about my > own version of a chastity belt... one that a woman > herself chooses to wear, that a potential rapist > can't see, but that knocks him unconscious and cuts his > you-know-what off. > > Bonnie > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:02:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/98 1:53:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not be. >> Let's see. Young woman joins BIG organization. Top Guy has sex with her. Situation gets problematic. SHE gets fired. Excuse me? I thought this was the kind of thing we wanted to see end. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:11:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's _Slow river_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/98 12:03:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ajhs@USA.NET writes: << it's a bleak, bitter "tale of the near future" >> Wow, nothing could have been further from my intentions. When I used to read from SLOW RIVER, I'd introduce it by saying it was, in the end, a novel about hope, about finding beauty in the darkest places, about being able to go on and to win. My intention was to write a story about a woman who lost everything, found that the "everything" was, in fact, pretty empty, then fought to get back something real and worthwhile...and succeeded. I'm really sad that you found it depressing. Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:14:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII erm, when was she ever fired? I think I missed that one. And as far as I can reason through the slime that is the Starr Report - she seduced him Bertina On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > In a message dated 9/16/98 1:53:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > > << Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex > between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not > be. >> > > Let's see. Young woman joins BIG organization. Top Guy has sex with her. > Situation gets problematic. SHE gets fired. Excuse me? I thought this was > the kind of thing we wanted to see end. > > Madrone > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:34:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: OT- Clinton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the facts: she was an UNPAID intern by virtue of campaign contributions made by her "extended family". she starts blowing the president. his staff, realizing he is a sex addict GIVES her a job in the federal service on some high uppity ups staff, which in DC probably paid 50 - 60 thousand a year. More than enough compensation for her "services". -----Original Message----- From: Bertina Miller To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) >erm, when was she ever fired? I think I missed that one. And as far as I >can reason through the slime that is the Starr Report - she seduced him > >Bertina > >On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > >> In a message dated 9/16/98 1:53:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: >> >> << Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex >> between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not >> be. >> >> >> Let's see. Young woman joins BIG organization. Top Guy has sex with her. >> Situation gets problematic. SHE gets fired. Excuse me? I thought this was >> the kind of thing we wanted to see end. >> >> Madrone >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:31:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: clinton-free space Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII as list-mistress i'd like to note that although i WISH the whole presidential thing was science fiction - it's not. ahem. does everyone get the point? this is clinton free space. i'll attend to the long-promised long-awaited chat-list soon but in the meantime this is clinton-lewinsky-starr-free space. discussion of stars should relate to galaxies & planets etc. thank you for your attention. Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org ** No More Sig Files! ** No More Witty Slogans! Save Bandwidth! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:22:28 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's _Slow river_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I thought Slow River was a kick. A friend sent it to me, and I really enjoyed it. it was different and interesting, and I liked her attitude. I hadn't read fiction for a long time because it bored me, but I really like this new stuff! Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:40:14 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Re: when was she fired. The Secret Service was going crazy, because Clinton had his secretary sneaking Monica in past them. It is their job to keep an eye on who comes and goes. One of them finally reported the situation to the person in charge, and so Monica was fired. yes, she was. It is in the Starr report, testimony from the Secret Service. That's why she was running around desperately trying to get support to get a job somewhere else. Also...I am really worried about how out of control the White House was. Clinton's secretary didn't like the situation, but she felt she 'had' to go along. One of the White House staff at some point (I foreget his name, see the report) insisted that Monica never be alone with the President so the secretary had to start being with them (how would you like that job?)...but eventually, Clinton rebelled and went back to sneaking off with her. At one point, Monica got upset because Ms. Mondale was with the President...when Clinton found out, he threatened to fire the Secret Service agent who told Monica about Mondale's presence. I really am not comfortable with a situation in which a powerful man gets what he wants by keeping his staff worried that they will be fired, ignored, or sent to Outer Slobovia if they don't cater to his whims and/or testify the way he wants them to.. As to her seducing him...oh, haha don't make me laugh. When you are Clinton's age, you should know the difference between adult seduction and taking advantage of a star-struck idiot girl. And even if she did seduce him, and the President of the United States is in such thrall to peter that he just had to go along, I still say: fire them BOTH, or don't fire either of them. Madrone, who voted for him. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale Comments: To: Marina In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FWIW, the "chastity-belts" being sold in Singapore (and elsewhere) are manufactured in the United States. Whether or not they work, whether or not they're useful as "anti-rape" devices or instruments of misogyny, one thing they're not is an invention of South East Asian origin. Anne On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > As you see, Singapore is entering a good company. > That woman in Singapore who owns the > chastity-belt making company could as well start marketing a home-kit for > genital mutilation. That would prevent rape, too -- by eliminating the > opening. > > > > SINGAPORE, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A Singapore firm is marketing > > > >U.S.-made rust proof steel chastity belts at a price of > > > >Singapore $1,350 (US$788) each, a local newspaper reported on > > > >Sunday. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:22:33 MST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: OT:Chastity Belt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Sep 98, at 15:00, Heather Law wrote: > Not to be indelicate, but was it unlocked for excretory functions? And did > the poor thing have to sleep-or try to sleep-in it? Carol The chastity belt I described was, we were told, used for "transportation". Presumably the person concerned was "locked" into this thing at the start of a journey from one harem and "unlocked" at the destination harem. The belt actually had no "lock"; it was fastened with a soft copper(?) rivet so it could only have been removed by punching out the rivet - not difficult but would take too long for it to be removed often! Nor could the victim have done much more than sit round when wearing it. It wasn't removed for excretory functions; it was full of holes about the diameter of a forefinger and was washed after. The reason I know it wasn't removed is because "evidence" was found on it. I don't believe that chastity belts were used extensively if at all in the West. I've never seen reliable contemporary sources from the Crusades era (which is when they were supposed to have been most widely used) for one thing. And wearing one for more than a few hours _under normal living conditions_ would produce pressure sores which - given the obvious lack of hygene - could only have resulted in massive infection. I get irritated at people who claim that Crusader women were helpless victims who would meekly accept being locked into chastity belts. The evidence show that, on the contrary, women left at home had to run estates and so on to pay for their husbands' expensive adventuring in Outremer (poor men couldn't afford take the Cross). So they had much more responsibility but were freer economically than when their men were around. For anyone who wants to check, there was a conference called the "Horns of Hattin" in Jerusalem in 87 at which I heard an excellent paper on women's role in the 5th(?) Crusade. The proceedings were edited by Kedar and came out in 94(?). If anyone is interested, I can dig the exact references out. AJ _______________________________ ajhs@usa.net> > > >Sunday. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:30:49 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Marina wrote: > If he had to get busted, that should have happened for what he had done to > Paula Jones. Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex > between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not > be. Whathe did to Paula Jones, as I understand it, is invite her up to his hotel room. She agreed. He then invited her to have sex. She declined. He said "OK". She left. That doesn't count as sexual harassment in _my_ book. Or have I just got the story wrong? Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:49:02 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It becomes a he said, she said story. Paula Jones was trying unsuccessfully to prove that the incident affected her employment future. On the other hand, show and tell is not the same as merely asking. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:03:30 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: clinton-free space In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In support of Laura's comments below - it should also be noted that this list also has an international membership:) - the other 99% of the planet probably couldn't care less about the sex-life of the American president.....however, by joining such a list it could be assumed they are interested in feminist sci-fiction and fantasy:)) As an aside - for some months I actually thought the 30-second news reports on the affair were advertising clips for a new season of Melrose Place:) Julieanne Laura wrote: >as list-mistress i'd like to note that although i WISH the whole >presidential thing was science fiction - it's not. ahem. does everyone >get the point? this is clinton free space. i'll attend to the >long-promised long-awaited chat-list soon but in the meantime this is >clinton-lewinsky-starr-free space. discussion of stars should relate to >galaxies & planets etc. thank you for your attention. > >Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:13:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: clinton-free space Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to second that....I have enough of an information explosion to keep me sufficiently stunned for the next 20 years, let us return to Feminist Science Fiction...let us return to healthy discussion about the list topics....grin Jo Ann At 08:03 PM 9/17/98 +1000, you wrote: >In support of Laura's comments below - >it should also be noted that this list also has an international membership:) > - the other 99% of the planet probably couldn't care less about the >sex-life of the American president.....however, by joining such a list it >could be assumed they are interested in feminist sci-fiction and fantasy:)) > >As an aside - for some months I actually thought the 30-second news >reports on the affair were advertising clips for a new season of Melrose >Place:) > >Julieanne > >Laura wrote: >>as list-mistress i'd like to note that although i WISH the whole >>presidential thing was science fiction - it's not. ahem. does everyone >>get the point? this is clinton free space. i'll attend to the >>long-promised long-awaited chat-list soon but in the meantime this is >>clinton-lewinsky-starr-free space. discussion of stars should relate to >>galaxies & planets etc. thank you for your attention. >> >>Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: OT- Clinton In-Reply-To: <000e01bde1db$59124960$ebb11b26@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No, I would have to disagree with you on that one-she was transferred, she did not get a different position in the pentagon. She was still an intern. Only after Clinton broke it off with her did they transfer her because she became obsessed with him. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, donna simone wrote: > the facts: > > she was an UNPAID intern by virtue of campaign contributions made by her > "extended family". she starts blowing the president. his staff, > realizing he is a sex addict GIVES her a job in the federal service on > some high uppity ups staff, which in DC probably paid 50 - 60 thousand > a year. More than enough compensation for her "services". > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bertina Miller > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Date: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 9:19 PM > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) > > > >erm, when was she ever fired? I think I missed that one. And as far as I > >can reason through the slime that is the Starr Report - she seduced him > > > >Bertina > > > >On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > > > >> In a message dated 9/16/98 1:53:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > >> my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > >> > >> << Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex > >> between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not > >> be. >> > >> > >> Let's see. Young woman joins BIG organization. Top Guy has sex with her. > >> Situation gets problematic. SHE gets fired. Excuse me? I thought this was > >> the kind of thing we wanted to see end. > >> > >> Madrone > >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's _Slow river_ In-Reply-To: <6bf0c2ea.36008074@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree. _Slow River_ was different like _Ammonite_ in its emphasis on lesbian main characters. The fact that the main character's potential abuser as a child was not her father as she had always suspected but her mother was an interesting twist. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > I thought Slow River was a kick. A friend sent it to me, and I really enjoyed > it. it was different and interesting, and I liked her attitude. I hadn't > read fiction for a long time because it bored me, but I really like this new > stuff! > > Madrone > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:50:47 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Black Wine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I sadly miscalculated the time needed to read _Black Wine_. I thought 1 week would be enough, instead it took me 3 weeks to finish it and then only, because I forced myself to read half of the book in one night (till the morning hours) so that finally I could get to the postings on it. However, that does not mean that I did not like the book or that I found it boring, only that, unfortunately, I was more in the mood for lighter stuff. I have to say as for all the books before I just loved the BDG postings on Black Wine. Without them I'd missed many interesting points and angles of the novel. Like some others on this list I found the first half of the book better than the second. IMO this is because the riddle on who is who is solved and the parable-like (?) quality is gone with that. I figured early on that the mad woman is Essa's mother but thought that the waif is Essa's daugther till Essa was thrown out of the Black Ship. Till then I thought that the waif is much younger. I did not understand the last chapter at first. I reread it after the explanation given in a posting here and I completely agree with that interpretation (i.e. that it describes Essa's death). I think that the SF Site review on Black Wine states several interesting points, e.g. on how names are used in the novel. He also points out the theme, which IMO is central to the book: '... in a way, the chain of experience from mother to daughter creates an archetype that encompasses them all. In a sense, each mother in this line creates a world which is safer and more sane than the world she came from, and each daughter rebels against the darkness and injustice of her mother's world. ...' This creating a safer and saner world for the daughter led me think of Essa's great-grandmother. She tortures, mutilates and finally kills her daughter (and her son) but the story she tells when dead made me think that _in a way_ (and in a way only) even for her it is true (that she creates a better world for her daughter). I found these paragraphs in which the great-grandmother tells her story very confusing but I made out that her father impregnated her brain-dead mother several times and carried out genetic experiments to create mutants for sexual games. According to the information given on the side of the review Dorsey will publish 'The Book of Essa' soon. Perhaps it will tell the story of Essa after she goes back to the Remarkable Mountains. But I wonder a bit about that. For me the whole story is closed and a sequel would be awkward. What do you think of the title, Black Wine? It is a beautiful title but I expected it to have more significance to the story. There is one scene in which Essa gets very drunk on black wine and her daughter Elta prefers beer to black wine but otherwise? Did someone figure out whether black wine is different from red or white one (besides the color)? The section in which Ea's mother tells her how she (Ea's mother) was mutilated by Ea's grandmother made the effects of a clitoris circumcision (is that the right expression for it ?) more vivid to me. I mean, normally when I hear of it I am horrified by the pain, the blood and the risks involved. But here I was even more moved by the loss of (common) sexual pleasure and of connection. I did not understand that the regent is so passive before and after the waif/Essa regains her memory. IMO he holds all the cards but does not use them. He is evil and powerful (he kills the 23 participants of the discussion group) but in a aimless way. Perhaps an early sign of his later senility? On 1 Sep 98 Marina wrote: > ... > it did not seem believable to me that the strong woman like > Ea was so damn scared of the guy. What was the reason for that? He > did not seem to have any will power or intelligence that would made > him dangerous in any way outside the power that he did not even have > while she was away. And if he did try to hurt her, why could not > she just kill him, as self-defense? She obviously was not some > sissy-girl afraid of blood, she spent considerable time travelling > and living an independent life, so what was so scary about this one > jerk? She could have saved do many people from further suffering. > Including her own family members. I do not agree. At the time Ea flees she's 19, she grew up with the experience of the power of her grandmother, her parents are afraid of her, too. And then she sees that the regent can use her grandmother. That is scary. Furthermore, she fears that she is/can become like her grandmother (she keeps this fear her whole life). Perhaps she could have killed the regent after her time in the Remarkable Mountains with all the experiences she'd gained but I do not think that she would have done that if she'd got the opportunity because she would not want to become like them. > ... > At the same time, even > after she regained her memory and figured things out, all Essa did > was writing the books. Then she give them as a weapon to someone > else to take care of the situation in the country, and when they > made things worse, she just took off back into the safety of the > nice peaceful outside world leaving her nation to deal with the > consequences of what she had started. This part just did not make > sense to me. If she was so socially concerned about the oppressed > masses, how could she just walk out after starting all that mess? > And if she was an individualist who put her own interests before > others, then why abdicate the trone and start all that revolutionary > crap? Again I do not agree. If I remember right Essa herself pointed out that if she just disposes of the regent and steps into his shoes, things would remain the same even if she tried to free the slaves and other things. Tradition and structures are stronger than one individual, especially if this individual is part of the tradition and tried to change things by acting exactly like her predecessors. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:05:22 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Graham Murray Subject: Re: OT:Chastity Belt In-Reply-To: Anthea Hartley Stanton's message of "Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:22:33 MST" Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Anthea Hartley Stanton writes: > I don't believe that chastity belts were used extensively if at all in the > West. I've never seen reliable contemporary sources from the Crusades era > (which is when they were supposed to have been most widely used) for one > thing. And wearing one for more than a few hours _under normal living > conditions_ would produce pressure sores which - given the obvious lack of > hygene - could only have resulted in massive infection. In case people are interested there is a book dedicated to the history of chastity belts. It is "The Girdle of Chastity - A History of the Chastity Belt" by Dr Eric John Dingwall published by Dorset Press. The author of this book indicates that the chastity belt was used in at least both France and Italy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:04:32 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: clinton-free space Content-Type: text/plain Thank you, Laura! And Amen. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:12:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > < lock herself into the belt and hide the key. No way can she be better off > locked up, men can come in and rape the women anyway as has happened to > many jailed women.>> > > Something is missing here... something about personal freedom. About not > being afraid. About not handing over power. This is really scary. > There actually is a device on the market - has been for centuries - that, used properly, will allow a woman to walk anywhere she pleases without fear. It was invented by Samuel Colt. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:39:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: LeGuin's Commencement Address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Eng 101 textbook I am using this term reprints this address (it is wonderful), and the intro note says it was originally published in her book _Dancing at the Edge of the World_ published in 1989. I have that collection and it is also wonderful! Enjoy! Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:13:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: OT- Clinton Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have to recommend you read the testimony of the Secret Service Agents, The President's secretary, and others. If you want the facts, that is. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:49:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: silk Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF le guin commencement address? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:33:51 -0700 From: Laura Quilter Subject: le guin commencement address? hey david & everyone else - does anyone know where to get le guin's commencement address at bryn mawr? any thoughts? email david lisle directly at davidlyl@juno.com as well as posting to the listserve - thanks *** It's in her second collection of essays and miscellanea, Dancing on the Edge of the World. Wendy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <199809162138.OAA29824@tarpon.ece.ucdavis.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Bonnie Gray wrote: > I had sworn not to get involved in this dicussion, because I > don't see what relevance it has to Feminist SF. The only > way I can think to bring it back is to fantasize about my > own version of a chastity belt... one that a woman > herself chooses to wear, that a potential rapist > can't see, but that knocks him unconscious and cuts his > you-know-what off. > > Bonnie > This might be a good idea, even though a pair of scissors would have the same effect. The problem, in my understanding, is the woman confidence in her ability to defend herself, using everything she has at hand. Unfortunately, being taught from early age that they are weaker, less brave, and in other ways inferior to men, a woman is often too terrified to even try to resist. Even though men are often physically stronger (or believed to be so), it's often the question of psychological strength rather than the physical one. For example, in prisons, where homosexual rapes are said to be pretty common, it ususally becomes the question of "character" rather than physical strength in determination who is going to be the victim and who the rapist. Since they all are men, the usual excuse of "women are victimized because they are weaker" does not work. So it all comes down to emotional strength. The good part in all this is that women can protect themselves from rape (even if they have been victimized before) by two steps. First, accepting the fact that horrible as rape can be, it's not the worst thing that can ever happen to a person, and it is not worth living one's life in fear, thinking about it all the time. Whatever happens to you, it is not your fault, it's not anything you could have possibly deserved, and it does not make you any less of a person you are. This is what prevented me from going crazy in the last years living in Tajikistan and seeing my friends getting abducted and gang-raped in the bright daylight in the middle of busy streets, and knowing that it could happen to me and those men will never be held responsible. It could happen to me, any day, any time, and every time I left the house in the morning, I did not know if I would come back in one piece or at all. Second, it is important to remember that people who might rape you are not some super-powerfull monsters from a sf movie, they are people like yourself. Which means they can feel pain, bleed, and die. That they can be frightened, too. Which means that if they can hurt you, you can hurt them as well, maybe not as much, but maybe even more. Every day I left the house, I was prepared to die. But I was not going to die easily. I had decided, that if a gang of armed men would try to drag me into a car, I'd be unlikely to get away alive. But that I was going to take at least one of them with me. Even if I had to kill him by slashing his throat with my teeth. And I was not scared anymore. I do realize that this scenario is a lot more extreme than what people in the West usually have to deal with -- being used to existance of such thing as law enforcement can make you get used to the feeling of safety. I also know that the majority of rapes happen with the attacker known to the victim -- a "friend" or a date. However, I think that street violence is what terrifies women the most and makes them susceptable to giving in to fear. Most of us feel uncomfortable walking alone in the dark street late at night, not when being alone with a man they know. However, that fear that originates on the street is what often paralizes us when a person we trust tries to force us to have sex. If a woman can work out her fear of strangers, she feels more comfortable and confident in any dangerous situation. And when she is not afraid, she is not easily victimized. No mechanical device can really protect a woman from violence. The only protection she can get is inside her head. Once it is there, she can use anything at hand -- a stone, a stick, a piece of broken glass to fight him off. Often, it won't even be necessary, because like all predators, rapists feel your fear. And if you are not scared of them, they will be scared of you. Even if nothing helps -- well, shit happens. But it does not _have_ to be that way. You always have a chance to defend yourself and get away. None of this works in the case of riots, of course. These things have to be prevented. If if you are caught in one of them, all you have left to do is run and hide. Being careful is very important, but it's not the same as being scared. And mechanical devices -- even the bext one possible -- gives you no more protection than, say, an ATM card. People cannot use it without you present. But they can force you to withdraw the money. The same as they can force you to remove the "dentata" or whatever it is. Or make you pay dearly if you cannot. Sorry for going off-topic again. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:18:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You are exactly right, Bertina. The only reason I compared chastity belts with purdah is to show that those things intended to "protect" women usually bring about even more oppression. It's an example of how men in patriarchical cultures first take away the rights of women to protect themseles, and then come up with some "remedial" gismo that would further restrict women's freedom "for their own good". It happens over and over again, unfortunately. The problem is, none of them are any better than the others. The only protection women need from men is to recognize them as human beings. And even if they refuse to do it, women can take care of themselves. I don't really want this discussion to turn into an argument. I understand where you are coming from, and agree that safety of women is extremely important. I simply think that things like chastity belt do a lot more harm than good. IMHO, Marina On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > Well I stand corrected, but correct me again if Im wrong that in the > nations that use the purdah, do they not abuse, rape and molest these > women who do not follow the rules? > > Bertina > bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > << Sexual harrassment should be a crime. Consensual sex > between adults simply isn't. It is nobody's business and it should not > be. >> > > Let's see. Young woman joins BIG organization. Top Guy has sex with her. > Situation gets problematic. SHE gets fired. Excuse me? I thought this was > the kind of thing we wanted to see end. Yes, that's what I used to think. However, from Ken Starr's report (and we cannot suspect him of being favorable of the President) I realized that it was not as simple. First of all, Clinton did not use his position to compel Monica to have sex with him (as he tried to do with Paula Jones, for example). It seemed to be Lewinsky's initiative, and honestly, I was amazed at her persistence in getting what she wanted. She much have really loved him, and in fact, I found her determination kind of admirable. Second, he did not fire her because they had problems as it often happens with office affairs. He actually was going out of his way trying to keep her there, but lost the battle with his assistants who were concerned with his reputation. (That was actually the most sorry part of the story -- the guy who basically rules the world being unable to keep his mistress around). After he failed to do that, and with the elections coming, he personally made sure that she'd get a job in Pentagon. After the election, he really tries to resist "do the right thing" and resist his desire (and her demands) to bring her back. And he fails again. The whole thing is really sad. At the same time, their relationship might be anything, but it's not sexual harrassment. It might be a case of bad judgement, or more likely a proof that "love hurts". He never used his position to compel her and in fact his being the President brought both of them nothing but trouble. He did not use governemnt money to buy her expensive gifts or let her use his private jet. He did not hire her for the sole purpose of having sex with him like Kennedy did. The very fact that he had to hide in the bathroom from his own aides to kiss Monica kind of proves that he was by no means using his position to his advantage. Because of all that, this could not be sexual harassment. In my humble opinion, it looks more like some Greek tragedy, and a really sad one. Especially if he loses his job over it. Talking about sexual harassment in general, not every office romance is necesserily that. People spend most of their lives at work, it's only natural if they fall in love there. My parents met because they worked at the same place. You can make these things illegal, but you cannot stop them. Not that I don't beleive in sexual harrassment. I tried to report it once myself, and sue the place later, and almost got deported because of that. So I know how it is. And I think that Bill-Monica relations was nothing like that. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry, Laura, just one more thing: We all have different versions of what have happened, and either of us might be right. But my understanding is that these two loved each other. For what I figured out from that piece of excrement curtesy of Ken Starr. It was not sexual harassment, nor an "older pervert taking advantage of a young stupid girl" situation. She was 21 years old, damn it. Do you think that none of us know what we are doing? Or people in their twentys are "not old enough" to have a right to make their own decisions, so we can be only "victims"? No matter how much I hate that idea of "old man/young woman" relationship, it does not mean that she could not have freely chosen that. She was not 12, you know. And assuming that she was "stupid" because she was 21 years old is kind of insulting. How old a woman is supposed to be to be "capable" of making a legitimate choice? I'm 24, and I'd like to know how long more, in the eyes of other people, I am supposed to wait. Marina On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > Re: when was she fired. > > The Secret Service was going crazy, because Clinton had his secretary sneaking > Monica in past them. It is their job to keep an eye on who comes and goes. > One of them finally reported the situation to the person in charge, and so > Monica was fired. yes, she was. It is in the Starr report, testimony from > the Secret Service. That's why she was running around desperately trying to > get support to get a job somewhere else. Also...I am really worried about how > out of control the White House was. Clinton's secretary didn't like the > situation, but she felt she 'had' to go along. One of the White House staff > at some point (I foreget his name, see the report) insisted that Monica never > be alone with the President so the secretary had to start being with them (how > would you like that job?)...but eventually, Clinton rebelled and went back to > sneaking off with her. > At one point, Monica got upset because Ms. Mondale was with the > President...when Clinton found out, he threatened to fire the Secret Service > agent who told Monica about Mondale's presence. > > I really am not comfortable with a situation in which a powerful man gets what > he wants by keeping his staff worried that they will be fired, ignored, or > sent to Outer Slobovia if they don't cater to his whims and/or testify the way > he wants them to.. > > As to her seducing him...oh, haha don't make me laugh. When you are > Clinton's age, you should know the difference between adult seduction and > taking advantage of a star-struck idiot girl. > > And even if she did seduce him, and the President of the United States is in > such thrall to peter that he just had to go along, I still say: fire them > BOTH, or don't fire either of them. > > Madrone, who voted for him. > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:20:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale Comments: To: Anne Vespry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hmm, that's quite interesting. Do you know which company? I'd like to know their name. Thanks, Marina On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Anne Vespry wrote: > FWIW, the "chastity-belts" being sold in Singapore (and elsewhere) are > manufactured in the United States. Whether or not they work, whether or > not they're useful as "anti-rape" devices or instruments of misogyny, one > thing they're not is an invention of South East Asian origin. > > Anne > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:47:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT:Chastity Belt In-Reply-To: <19980917072235.12936.qmail@www0j.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > > I don't believe that chastity belts were used extensively if at all in the > West. I've never seen reliable contemporary sources from the Crusades era > (which is when they were supposed to have been most widely used) for one > thing. And wearing one for more than a few hours _under normal living > conditions_ would produce pressure sores which - given the obvious lack of > hygene - could only have resulted in massive infection. For what I have read they were used more in the ancient Rome. And the results were exactly as you say -- sores and massive infections. My understanding is that women sometimes died if that. Apparently, it did not bother anyone any more than the deaths resulting from the genital mutilation in the cultures that practice it. For more information about chastity belts, those interested can look in Rosalind Miles "History of Women". She does not spend much space talking about it, but what she does describe is very impressive. Concerning Crusader women, I think as in all opressive situations, it mostly depended on individual women. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of strong women in today's Afghanistan, who try to make the best out of their horrible situation. The problem is, that even those women who despite their disadvantages position accomplish more than many men, still receive no support, recognition, or encouragement for their achievements. Which means their hard work and success exists not due to the oppressive regime, but despite it, and therefore does not make the said regime any less oppressive. It's the same is with convents. For some they were a refuge from patriarchy, allowing to pursue things unavailable to a woman outside. For others they were an equivalent to a prison, depriving them from the opportunity to, say travel, or get married to someone they loved, or run the estate and raise children, and so on. The problem was that they still could not do both, so there was always a sacrifice. I am pretty sure there were plenty of strong women in the Middle Ages. But there were also those who were victimized. Some of us can survive in any conditions. But I don't think it makes those condition any better by themselves. It should not take superhuman skills for a woman to succeed in a society, and when it does, the society has a problem. At least that's what I think. Marina > > I get irritated at people who claim that Crusader women were helpless victims > who would meekly accept being locked into chastity belts. The evidence show > that, on the contrary, women left at home had to run estates and so on to pay > for their husbands' expensive adventuring in Outremer (poor men couldn't > afford take the Cross). So they had much more responsibility but were freer > economically than when their men were around. For anyone who wants to check, > there was a conference called the "Horns of Hattin" in Jerusalem in 87 at > which I heard an excellent paper on women's role in the 5th(?) Crusade. The > proceedings were edited by Kedar and came out in 94(?). If anyone is > interested, I can dig the exact references out. > > > > > AJ > _______________________________ > ajhs@usa.net> > > >Sunday. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:53:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Edward James wrote: > Whathe did to Paula Jones, as I understand it, is invite her up to his > hotel room. She agreed. He then invited her to have sex. She declined. > He said "OK". She left. > > That doesn't count as sexual harassment in _my_ book. Or have I just got > the story wrong? He pulled out his penis and offered her to suck it. The most polite response to that I can think of would be to say "Gee, you've got a third pinky!" Seriously, would not you get a little upset if your boss did that to you? Or some guy in a public bathroom? Or you'd just smile, say "no, thanks" and forget all about it? Just curious, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:16:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/98 6:10:38 PM, Marina wrote: <> Greek tragedy? Oh, please. Sad, sorry, silly, but not cosmic. A romance, perhaps, a soap opera, a 1930's "back-stairs" film... but hardly tragedy. Let's see -- How would Sherri Tepper write this story? best wishes phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:55:33 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: RHS Linux User Subject: Re: le guin commencement address? Comments: cc: davidlyl@juno.com In-Reply-To: from "Laura Quilter" at Sep 16, 98 09:33:51 am Content-Type: text It was published in "Dancing at the Edge of the World" a collection of articles, reviews, papers & speeches by Le Guin. My copy was published by Paladin in 1992 - I don't know who the U.S. publishers might have been. ISBN 0-586-09134-3 (paperback edition). I checked the previous pub's list at the back, and there was no mention of it being published anywhere else before then. Good luck with the thesis! (By the way - Dancing at the Edge of the World also has "A Left Handed Commencement Address", which she gave to Mills College Class of '83 (Bryn Mawr was 86) - might be of use?) Hope that helps ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:00:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Re: le guin commencement address? In-Reply-To: <199809161955.UAA22307@yon-net.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:55 PM 9/16/98 +0100, RHS Linux User wrote: >It was published in "Dancing at the Edge of the World" a collection >of articles, reviews, papers & speeches by Le Guin. My copy was >published by Paladin in 1992 - I don't know who the U.S. publishers >might have been. ISBN 0-586-09134-3 (paperback edition). My edition is published by Grove Press, New York, 1989. ISBN 0-8021-3529-3 ($12 paperback). There is, according to the Introductory Note, an earlier book of nonfictional writings: The Language of the Night, but no other information was given. hope it helps, Jenn athena@geocities.com ------------------------------------- * You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:01:33 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: le guin commencement address? In-Reply-To: <199809172155.RAA13017@pop.snet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Amazon.com: Dancing at the Edge of the World : Thoughts on Words, Women, Places by Ursula K. Le Guin List Price: $12.00 Our Price: $9.60 You Save: $2.40 (20%) Availability: This title usually ships within 24 hours. Paperback - 320 pages 1 Pbk Ed edition (October 1997) Grove/Atlantic; ISBN: 0802135293 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.88 x 8.21 x 5.47 -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: jenn mottram [mailto:athena@GEOCITIES.COM] > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 1998 3:00 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] le guin commencement address? > > > At 08:55 PM 9/16/98 +0100, RHS Linux User wrote: > >It was published in "Dancing at the Edge of the World" a collection > >of articles, reviews, papers & speeches by Le Guin. My copy was > >published by Paladin in 1992 - I don't know who the U.S. publishers > >might have been. ISBN 0-586-09134-3 (paperback edition). > > > My edition is published by Grove Press, New York, 1989. ISBN > 0-8021-3529-3 ($12 paperback). > There is, according to the Introductory Note, an earlier book of > nonfictional writings: The Language of the Night, but no > other information > was given. > > > hope it helps, > > Jenn > > athena@geocities.com > ------------------------------------- > * You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:35:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's _Slow river_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found it very interesting (including the details of the water processing!). I borrowed it originally from the library, and discovered that all the sex scene pages had been cut out (no idea if it was a peripatetic censor or somebody wildly turned on but too mean to buy a copy, but damnit, there was plot on them thar pages!). I made Great Big Noisy Fuss until the librarian promised to replace it (and did, I checked, unmolested new copy last time I looked). And I bought my own paperback copy. So you should be able to retire on those extra royalties, Nicola! :-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:51:48 -0700 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Lincoln-Pruitt Anti-Rape Device MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit schant wrote: > > The "vagina dentata" comment brought to mind a short story I read ages > ago called something like "The Lincoln-Prewett Anti-Rape Device". It's > about a group of American women dropped into Vietnam during the war. > Their mission was to use the device to kill enemy men by allowing > themselves to be raped. Sounds gruesome, but I remember it as having > quite a light touch and a certain amount of wry humour, and making > some interesting feminist points about rape. And of course, now that I > want to read it again I can't remember who wrote it or where I saw it! > Any ideas? "The Lincoln-Pruitt Anti-Rape Device: Memoirs of the Women's Combat Army in Vietnam" is by Emily Prager, and appeared in her provocative collection _A Visit to the Footbinder_. Simon & Schuster first published it in 1982, & then Random House reprinted it as Vintage Contemporary (trade paperback) in 1987. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:04:15 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's _Slow river_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/98 3:44:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jjggww@JUNO.COM writes: > So you should be able to > retire on those extra royalties, Nicola! :-) Bless you . Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:26:37 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: clinton-free space In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980917200330.007d3440@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Oh, now, I saw some Clintonia on aus.motorcycles - so far as I know, the President has yet to be spotted on a bike, much less in Oz. Kathleen On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Julieanne * wrote: >> chomp << > - the other 99% of the planet probably couldn't care less about the > sex-life of the American president.....however, by joining such a list it > could be assumed they are interested in feminist sci-fiction and fantasy:)) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:53:42 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 15 Sep 1998 to 16 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: Nicola Griffith >Subject: Re: Nicola Griffith's _Slow river_ >SLOW RIVER, I'd introduce it by saying it was, in the end, a novel about >hope, about finding beauty in the darkest places, about being able to go on >and to win. This is always a risky strategy, but the challenge, once sighted, is irre- sistable! People tell me they "can't" read WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD because it's too grim, but I think of it as a story of men and women finding ways to love even though they live in a totally irrational and love-hating society which is bound to self-destruct by reason of its inherent faults. But I have had to accept that the more negative reading is "in" there too, for those who are too struck by it to get to the next level where the positives lurk. Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:53:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 15 Sep 1998 to 16 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:14 AM 9/17/98, Automatic digest processor wrote: > >In regard to Hilary putting the belt on Bill, the consensus >among my horsebreeding friends is that he's a great >candidate for gelding--really let him focus his abilities on >the job at hand. > >Marsha Valance I'd say there are vast numbers of guys who could benefit by this treat- ment; he's hardly alone, and when you consider that he never even got to intercourse, while the sactimonious bastard Henry Hyde had a full-fledged affair with a colleague's wife -- Jessie wrote: >David Brin's second Uplift trilogy, so it's on my mind) that "humans" will >be/are different from the local aliens because of their refreshing, >disrespectful, innovative, charge-right-into-it, no-respect-for-authority, >jumping all over the place kind of attitude. This has lately been sounding to >me *exactly* like the way Americans think of themselves, but is it as >meaningful for those cultures where tradition and respect for old age are more >important values than eternal newness and the primacy of startups? No, it's just a function of Brin's aggressive optimism and techno-love, which is definitely a form of American boosterism that's been with us for a long time -- typical of your basic Babbitt. Suzy Charnas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:31:07 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: clinton-free space In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Julieanne * wrote: > > - the other 99% of the planet probably couldn't care less about the > > sex-life of the American president..... well, yes - but it is a great deal funnier than any sitcom (including _Third Rock_) and there's no braying laughter from a studio audience. > > however, by joining such a list it > > could be assumed they are interested in feminist sci-fiction and fantasy:)) > sci-fiction is a new one to me - is it a local compromise between sci-fi and science fiction - and I really would like to discuss it. ************************************************************** Dr Patricia Monk patmonk@is.dal.ca Department of English Dalhousie University HALIFAX Nova Scotia B3H 2S3 ignorance is curable * stupidity is forever ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 15 Sep 1998 to 16 Sep 1998 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, SMCharnas wrote: > Jessie wrote: > > >David Brin's second Uplift trilogy, so it's on my mind) that "humans" will > >be/are different from the local aliens because of their refreshing, > >disrespectful, innovative, charge-right-into-it, no-respect-for-authority, > >jumping all over the place kind of attitude. This has lately been sounding > >me *exactly* like the way Americans think of themselves, but is it as > >meaningful for those cultures where tradition and respect for old age are > >more important values than eternal newness and the primacy of startups? > > No, it's just a function of Brin's aggressive optimism and techno-love, > which is definitely a form of American boosterism that's been with us for > a long time -- typical of your basic Babbitt. I disagree that it is "just" that. While I see them as definately intertwined, have you read _Otherness_? At the end Brin explains his belief in the "Meme of Otherness" and links it to American culture. The concept is very compelling for me, as I like to think that I have been embracing the "other." What I find most interesting and most lacking from Brin's essay (and other writing) though hinted at in the essay is the inherent contradiction of the "Meme of Otherness." In fact, I see it as in some senses a very plausible possible source of the problems that many "otherness" movements have run into. Perhaps the people who can handle/resolve the paradox or relatively scarce (certain personality or something) whereas most sort of get gored on one of the horns of the dilemma. In some senses I see Brin falling into the dogmatic and self-congratulatory whereas poular "cool" culture has fallen into self-hatred and faddish elitism of the obscure. Here I feel like I have found people right in the thick of it, as painful as it sometimes is. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:37:52 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: OT- Clinton (was Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Marina wrote: <> Depends directly on the age of the person saying "you're not old enough". As their age goes up, your age of "maturity" will go up also. You may be able to win this argument by suggesting senility on their part. Good luck from a recovering ageist. Mary-Ellen Maynard Crystal Mist Glass Carving ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:50:43 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > > > > < > lock herself into the belt and hide the key. No way can she be better off > > locked up, men can come in and rape the women anyway as has happened to > > many jailed women.>> > > > > Something is missing here... something about personal freedom. About not > > being afraid. About not handing over power. This is really scary. > > > There actually is a device on the market - has been for > centuries - that, used properly, will allow a woman to walk anywhere she > pleases without fear. It was invented by Samuel Colt. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > > Hello ... I would certainly be afraid if I thought I might have to kill someone ... not something I would ever look forward to. Would if I had to, but would still fear same ... ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net Join "Outsiders" (http://Outsiders.listbot.com) the mailist For Those Who Walk Alone... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:50:44 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale -- Chastity Belts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > I don't really want this discussion to turn into an argument. I understand > where you are coming from, and agree that safety of women is extremely > important. I simply think that things like chastity belt do a lot more > harm than good. > > IMHO, > Marina Funny that no one has mentioned in this conversation the possibility of "oral rape" which happens all the time. Chastity belts would do nothing to prevent that. All they do is to assure the "owner" that children would not result from any "rape," which is all they care about anyway. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net Join "Outsiders" (http://Outsiders.listbot.com) the mailist For Those Who Walk Alone... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:26:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Black Wine What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep or death? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:32:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Free zone Laura, thank you. I am so sick of hearing about this senseless topic. I've learned from the postings here, since I long ago stopped listening to or reading any news accounts involving Clinton, Lewinsky or Starr. But enough already. If I never hear another word about it I'll be happy. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:00:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine In-Reply-To: <001201bde319$e1587440$1f8dfbd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the > book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep > or death? > Yes, it does. I have been wondering about the title, as well, and this idea is more coherent than anything I have come up with. It seemed to me in reading the novel that in the scenes in which it appeared, the black wine was often associated with memory, either memories inspired by the presence of the wine or memories inspired by the drinking of the wine. This association would also fit nicely with the themes of the novel that deal with the complex relationship between memory, or lack thereof, and identity that I found to be central to the story. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:31:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine In-Reply-To: <001201bde319$e1587440$1f8dfbd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the > book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep > or death? I think, the title itself is not meant to carry any specific meaning, the same as, say, _The Name of the Rose_. It's just an image, a symbol that might signify different things to different people, with no interpretation being more "correct" than any other. It's like the names of people -- we all have them, while few of us know what they even _supposed_ to mean. And even when they do, that rarely has much to do what we are, unless we consider it so significant that let it actually affect us. Names are given to people when they are born, with no advanced knowledge of what they are going to be like. The same can happen with books. I think, it's quite possible, that "black wine" was what started the book, the original idea that everything grew from but not necessarily connected to it in any specific way. Of course, I am a post-modernism freak, so this may make little sense to those who are not :). But this is what I think. Of the Sea (at least that's what they say my name means in Roman). http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:28:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vogt, Melissa" Organization: Indiana State University Subject: new member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi! I am new to this listserv but I am hoping any of you might be able to help me with a research project I am attempting. I am taking a women's studies course and we are required to develop a gender studies project that should take the entire semester to complete. I would like to research something relating to Melanie Rawn's new Exiles series, where women are in control of society. I consider the concept and the books to be feminist. I'd like to do a comparison to society structures of her previous trilogies (Dragon Prince, Dragon Star) as well as find out what readers' reactions to this new fantasy world is. I'm of the opinion that Rawn is either 1.) toying with a new concept for a fantasy world, 2.) using the series as a satirical commentary of modern Western society, or 3.) she had an experience that changed her viewpoints. But then again, maybe she has had feminist tendencies all along. (Please be easy on me because I'm not very adept at discussing feminist philosophies and I'm still learning a lot of historical background on the subject.) If you can help, please e-mail. I haven't completely defined or refined my research topic yet and I'm looking for some imput. Thanks!! Melissa V. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:37:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 16 Sep 1998 to 17 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina wrote: >It was not sexual harassment, nor an "older pervert taking advantage of a >young stupid girl" situation. She was 21 years old, damn it. There is sexual harassment going on here. The President is being harassed over his sexuality, and hers. I find it interesting that this is the pres. who is widely believed to have been put into office by "the women's vote". And it is usually *women* who are put through grueling questioning in court inquiries around sexual charges. Isn't this the Reactionary patriarchy going after this man along the lines of, "*They* elected you, so you must be in some way like *them*, so we're going to treat you the way we treat one of them we've caught 'misbehaving' and see how you like *that*, bitch!" (Not SF, exactly, but feminist, anyway) Suzy Charnas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:31:58 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/18/98 4:03:10 PM, jbertlan wrote, commenting on Joyce: <> I agree with both of you. I also got "deep" associations with it -- black water running deep, and wine that was NOT really wine but some other more heady elixir or a kind of drug that brought associations with the inner Self. Lethe... a dream, a sleep, an altered state wherein Essa could both get lost and get found. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So.... I only just got to read _Black Wine_ today. My god, what a beautiful, awesome book. I'm still there. Could someone please remind me how to get to the archives for discussions about the book? I'm sorry to have to bother the list with administrivia. =( "Black Wine" as a name reminds me of blood, of anti-privilege (black vs. white), of the breaking of duality (red vs. white wine: this offers a third path). "Midnight-blue," it is the thirst of the dark of night in your soul as you wander the only loneliness of your choice. It is facing the unknown, drinking it in until the fear turns to laughter, until memories are equal to dreams. It is the witches brew; it is magic and strength. It is the concept that doesn't fit into the language, the word combination that makes no sense in English... Heather =) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:39:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sidney Watson Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phoebe Wray wrote: > I agree with both of you. I also got "deep" associations with it -- black > water running deep, and wine that was NOT really wine but some other more > heady elixir or a kind of drug that brought associations with the inner Self. > Lethe... > a dream, a sleep, an altered state wherein Essa could both get lost and get > found. > I associated the wine with blood (thanks, no doubt to my Baptist upbringing) and family relationships. Black Wine, then, would suggest the tension within each of the mother/daughter relationships and so another connection to the identity issue. Both of these words seem to me to have such complex associations within Western culture, that it's almost inevitable that they would generate multiple readings, even from the same reader. Sid ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 05:00:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Snow Crash - spoilers In-Reply-To: <199809181451.HAA01422@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just finished reading Snow Crash (if I could say that, since I pretty much skimmed through the last quarter or so). And God, what an incredible bunch of crap! How could it start so promising, and turn into something so idiotic? Let me explain. In this book, men of all races so touchingly work together for the sake of the universal good, all the most glorious kinds of them -- geeks and mafia united. While the women evolved enough to have names (all two of them -- one smart but a little crazy, the other super-tough, but kind of clueless) even though kicking the bad guys' butts every once in a while, eventually always end up rescued by the good guys Somehow, despite their supreme intelligence/toughness, duly admired by males on regular basis, they still need to get rescued, again and agian. Just cannot seem to be able to take care of themselves completely, always need a hand from men in the most crucial moment. Which gives the latter ones a great "honorable" excuse to blow up each other in large numbers. Meanwhile, at the backgound, we have a terminally messed up theory of human knowledge as a virus transferred though religion, i.e. the bad kind of it, originating from a female deity and the sin of Eve), while the one brought up by the male god and his profets, was a "torch of light" representing the idea of "linear thinking" in a form of one and only god, that saved the humanity from the damnation of intellectual darkness. I might have got a little spoiled by all the feminist science fiction I had been reading lately, but this is the most thouroughly sexist hi-tech paranoia I have encountered in a long, long time, if ever. Besides of all the mysogynistic agenda in the book, the whole theory the author puts together to explain the religion as a virus is so lame, it contradicts itself, elementary logic, and common sense in every paragraph of this pseudo-intellectual reasoning. Thia is what kills the books appeal, in my opinion. At the very beginning, it's pretty cool -- all the fast action, super-technology, and the sense of humor really make it hard to put the book down. But as soon as the main character goes into scientific musings, it gets more and more pathetic. I think, the author's problem is that he tries to target two different audiences at once -- the techno freaks and the "liberal arts" types. The theory he comes up presents a pretty hideous blend if the history/antropology of Sumerian civilization and the myth of Babylon on one side, and the cyberstuff like viruses, binary code, and hardware on the other. Which would be pretty cool if he could he pull it off, but unfortunately the result is rather uncoherent. For one thing, human brain's natural "wiring" for a language is not anything like Programmable Read-Only Memory or whatever he calls it. I remember enough from my Electrical Engineering class to know that those things could be only programmed once. That's why they are called read-only. If human brain was the same way, it would mean that once a person learns a language, their brain is permanently altered, so they cannot be "programmed" for another one. You cannot change PROM's, it's the same as the mechanism for a music box, or a regular music CD -- once you mold it, or put all those holes there in a specific pattern, that's where they are going to be. If that was the case with the brain's ability to learn languages, I would not be thinking in English right now. I could barely speak it four years ago, when I came to US, and now I have to stop and search for words when I try to talk in Russian to my Mom. Those wise Sumerian in fact ended up being not wise at all, and not even conscious, in the modern sense. They simply got their superior knowledge from some universal "meta-virus", brought about on a meteorite or something else as irrelevant. Humans at that point simply kept replicating it, just like some clock-work dummies. Until some really wise hacker (the "first counscious human", who apparently became so by some miracle -- created a virus that destroyed people's ability to follow the "extraterrestrial" knowledge and forced them to re-invent things like bread recipes by themselves. So they were saved from the darkness, by a hacker. If only that female bitch, Asherah, did not keep trying to interfere and mess things up. But of course, there was a "nice girl" of a goddess there, too. She bravely went to Hell to save the "right knowledge" (or something like that) -- just to get herself trapped and let the guy god rescue her together with the rest of the humanity. I don't expect a science fiction book to have a solid scientific base, but it should make a little sense from a logical point of view, in my humble opinion. Besides, from the way all that theorizing was cooked up, it seemed to me that the guy mainly counted on the fact that those who are into programming code and viruses often do not know much about cultural stuff or psychology and the other way around. Most of the "computer" or even simply "technical" folks I know are not much into History or Psychology, let alone English, and generally look down on non-technical matters. While many "humanitarians" consider it below themselves to learn how use a voice mail, since "they are not into those machines" (I've met a few of those, too, especially at my work at the computer lab. Just this week there was a girl who did not know that she should hit space to get the words separated. She did not want to know, either, she just wanted me to do it for her, whining that it was all too difficult. She had to do it herself, of course. And then, she was actually looking at the lines of unbroken stream of characters she had typed, all words clumped together, and sent her email like that. I still wonder if she was simply brain-dead or it was some kind of retarded joke she was trying to pull on me). With so many people so "narrowly specialized" (I would not say everyone, but quite a few), it does not surprise me much that Stephenson could get away with all that illogical mess -- the people who know about computers would not know about psycophysiology of language, and the same the other way around, so it would not irritate either of them. Seriously, I wish the author of Snow Crash stuck to the chases, duels, virtual universe, and the fights with the blood and brains flying. That stuf was a lot more fascinating than his theological musings, that also happened to be exctremely sexist. I loved that part when Y.T.(The Woman Who Kicks Butt) tells the main character that "women do not want you to understand them, they just want you to understand yourself." That really made me wonder if the guy who wrote this had any contact with women other than the ones on his screen saver. That was one of the two women with a name. What was going on with the remaining half of the humanity, is uncertain. Besides, of course, all those naked virtual bimbos whose main occupation was to serve as a holder to virtual scrolls containing either a virus or an advertisement. It's funny, the author is bending over backwards trying to be politically correct in the racial matters. The hero is half-black, half-Asian. All the other characters very thoroughly belong to different races. That on-going male bonding between various heroic social goups -- such as mafia, hackers, businessmen, and criminals -- is so overstretching it could make one puke. Meanwhile women (except the two who also happen to be the main love interests) are still right there, naked, holding signs. "Cult prostitutes" of Asherah-the-evil-Goddess that the good Yahwe-the-Father tried so hard to eliminate, for the sake of humanity's salvation in the form of "linear thinking". Oh, yeah, also the "babushkas". I wonder if America ever gets over the Cold War. I can understand that with all the rules of political correctness, one cannot depict any other ethnic group as a source of universal evil. One has to be careful when ragging on blacks, Chinese, Jewish, and so forth. So Russians are the only ones who are fair game for the role of group enemy. In this case, they turned out to be on the same side with Southern religious fanatics -- that's, in my book, the lowest one can get. Even the psycho killer Raven turns out to be a victim of the US Government's policy towards minorities, and by the end shows his somewhat human side. But Russians are just plain bad guys, all of them, and deserve to get drawned or chopped up in the large numbers, with the cheers from the audience. I guess individual enemies are simply not as much fun as hacking a whole evil nation. Anyway. I also checked out Melissa Scott's Trouble and Her Friends from the library. I hope it's better than this. Otherwise, I'll either have to start writing cyberpunk myself, or feel like throwing up every time someone talks about it. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: OT: Feminist Mystery In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just finished reading a new mystery by Abigail Padgett called _Blue_ that is going to make my "Top Three Feminist Fiction Works of the Year" list. Without (I hope) giving too much away, the book reminded me strongly of Tepper's work, especially _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_. I suspect I'm not the only person on the list whose reading crosses genres, so for any other mystery lovers I highly recommend this book, and if you read it and would like to discuss it, let's do so off list. Anne [Blue by Abigail Padgett, Mysterious Press, HardBack, ISBN:0-89296-671-8] Anne Vespry ******* http://www.vex.net/~maverick After Stonewall Bookshop ***** never forget avespry(at) *** only dead fish ollisdotuottawadotca * swim WITH the stream ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:02:24 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: OT: Feminist Mystery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just joined a new list about female detectives. Does this book fit into that description? Thanks Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:32:24 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: Snow Crash -/American xenophobia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I would have thought the current foreign devils were Arabs or Muslims. Look how they got treated after both Oklahoma City and Flight 800. It never seemed to occur to anyone that there was no proof of terrorism over the plane crash and no proof of foreign involvement over Oklahoma. I haven't heard any public apologies either, while the government is now using this non-existent terrorist activity as an excuse to limit our freedoms. I think most Americans are somewhat baffled by Russians, but I also feel that for the average person, Russians are not seen as the enemy. From what you said about the author of this book, his attitudes toward women are about 50 years out of date, so presumably his politics are Cold War era too. Are you aware that you're more fluent in English than 90% of native speakers? Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:09:27 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Snow Crash - spoilers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/19/98 3:09:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << I just finished reading Snow Crash >> Wow. Thanks for the review (?). Its the first thing I read this morning, and it made me laugh. DO write a novel for us. Great style. Madrone :-) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:22:35 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: Snow Crash - spoilers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Marina wrote: <> It is - just finished it - liked it a lot. <> Please do - I always need more books. Mary-Ellen Maynard Crystal Mist Glass Carving ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:59:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Black Wine Heather Maclean writes: "Black Wine" as a name reminds me of blood, of anti-privilege (black vs. white), of the breaking of duality (red vs. white wine: this offers a third path). "Midnight-blue," it is the thirst of the dark of night in your soul as you wander the only loneliness of your choice. It is facing the unknown, drinking it in until the fear turns to laughter, until memories are equal to dreams. It is the witches brew; it is magic and strength. It is the concept that doesn't fit into the language, the word combination that makes no sense in English... ------------------------------------ Beautifully said, Heather, worthy of the book. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:29:33 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Um. OK. The writing is excellent. The cultures are interesting. The author's ability to weave together all the different lives is past excellence, a style that is just gorgeous and compelling and astonishing. This writer has magic. Not to mention the book cover, which on mine is dull black with shiny outlines of blackberry vines...beautiful. But...uh...am I too old for this story (horribile cognitu!) or something? I mean..I got to the part about the Carrier and yet one more fucking (her term) scene and I figuratively fell off my chair, mentally screaming, stop! already! and get on with the story!!!! Cheese and crackers, people. I set the book aside and WILL finish it because I want to see how she crafts the ending. But I have reached the point where I am skimming lines to get to something interesting and I hate doing that. Could it be the Clinton thing? Is it possible (she asked, delicately) to get fuck-storied out?? My copy of Shadow Man arrived, and that was an interesting, challenging, really thoughtful read. People developed...or thought about developing, or remembered...love affairs, but it seemed more interesting and less disruptive of the story-magic. I look forward to more stories by the Black Wine author (book is in a back room at this moment) I think someday she will be a really great writer. But at this time I am looking for more Melissa Scott. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:29 PM 9/19/98 EDT, you wrote: >But...uh...am I too old for this story (horribile cognitu!) or something? I >mean..I got to the part about the Carrier and yet one more fucking (her term) >scene and I figuratively fell off my chair, mentally screaming, stop! already! >and get on with the story!!!! Cheese and crackers, people. > *blink* I really fail to see how fucking is an impediment to the story. I think the sexual aspects of _BW_ are simply another aspect of language--just as much as the slave sign-language. Sexuality should be, and is, part of life. Admittedly, sexuality in the US is too often occulted and made to disappear. Nonetheless, our sexual urges as women are real, and strong. For my part, the openness and naturalness of sex in this book was liberating. No longer relegated to the shame of the night, no longer tied to the trigger of a hard cock, I found the sex in this book gorgeous and vibrant (no pun intended). "Fucking," as a word, may be shocking if you see the act as dirty; but it soon becomes just another word, as simple and honest as "eating" and "sleeping." For me, the lack of moral overtones surrounding sex--except where non-consentual sex was concerned, in which case Dorsey voices a strong negativity--was utterly liberating, and a joy. I think it makes us re-evaluate the normally hidden nature of the sexuality of women in a truly positive manner. Heather __________________________________________ "Output of your job hmaclean: > Reality is only a question of language. Unknown command - "REALITY". Try HELP." -------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:48:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Whoosh. Please, I like sex too. I don't see it as dirty, and agree with pretty much all you say. BUT I honestly saw it as the lesser of her writing skills and doubt it was necessary to the work. But it is her work and she has the obligation to write it as she sees it. I just really had a "Oh, come on, folks!" reaction. Jeez. What's that old joke?....I like chocolate cake with fruit, too, but I don't talk about it all the time. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine In-Reply-To: <001201bde319$e1587440$1f8dfbd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the > book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep > or death? I thought it was very interesting that Elta preferred beer to black wine. It's like how most people in the U.S. would sooner spend 35 dollars on a keg of beer than on a bottle of wine. It's not only a difference in taste but in mind set. All of the other major characters seemed to have a taste for black wine and Elta's preference for beer was another intriguing contrast between her and her foremothers. Elta and Minh were two of my favorite characters in the book. I wish they had gotten more "screen" time. In fact, I would be perfectly happy to read a book about Elta's adventures (if I can get over that horrible last chapter-- saying that I dislike the last chapter would be an understatement). > Joyce > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:51:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine In-Reply-To: <3f423aa1.3604061d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: (snip) > This writer has magic. Not to mention the book cover, which on mine is > dull black with shiny outlines of blackberry vines...beautiful. I love the cover! This is one of the most appropriate covers on a book that I have seen in a long time. It's richly textured and has a lush quality that reflects the authors writing style. > But...uh...am I too old for this story (horribile cognitu!) or something? I > mean..I got to the part about the Carrier and yet one more fucking (her term) > scene and I figuratively fell off my chair, mentally screaming, stop! already! > and get on with the story!!!! Cheese and crackers, people. (Spoilers if you haven't finished the book). A lot of readers were more bothered by the violence. What bothered me was how all of the threads that were started and entertwined during the first 2/3 of the book just came unravelled during the last 1/3. There were too many coincidences like how Essa goes back to the village for her mother and just happens to run into her on the side of the river. Or how she runs into Escape-From-Bondage on the way back to the city or how he happens to have the Regent tagging along with him. The only way it would make sense for Escape-From-Bondage to have the Regent with him was so that he could find a nice, quiet place where he could bash his head in with a rock. What really bothered me was how Essa's mother conveniently disappears after Essa has a revelation about their relationship (you can't go home again). How strange that Essa travels half way around the world in search of her mother then loses her again and doesn't go to too great an effort to track her down. I couldn't help but feel that Essa somehow lost the opportunity to build a new adult relationship with her mother that would have helped her to mature. Instead she mopes along to her next misadventure and will forever be a feckless child (she destroys her marriage, abandons her child, rejects Minh and never attempts to repair any of the damage she had done to any of the people she had hurt). > I set the book aside and WILL finish it because I want to see how she crafts > the ending. But I have reached the point where I am skimming lines to get to > something interesting and I hate doing that. There seems to be a lot going on in the book but most of the action is lost beneath the lovely prose and powerful imagery. Some of the images still linger with me long after I put the book down. > Madrone > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:58:17 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I liked the sex episodes. Seemed to me they came at times Essa needed to take a breath. They were well done, IMO. The bi-sexual nature of them must mean something... Sex is basic nature. And the sex in this book reminded me that our heroine is, finally, just a person seeking and finding. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:11:22 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/19/98 10:55:26 PM, you wrote: << How strange that Essa travels half way around the world in search of her mother then loses her again and doesn't go to too great an effort to track her down. I couldn't help but feel that Essa somehow lost the opportunity to build a new adult relationship with her mother that would have helped her to mature. Instead she mopes along to her next misadventure and will forever be a feckless child (she destroys her marriage, abandons her child, rejects Minh and never attempts to repair any of the damage she had done to any of the people she had hurt).>> thought this worked. She is not perfect. She is damaged. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:47:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Snow Crash - spoilers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:00 AM 9/19/98 -0500, Marina wrote: >I just finished reading Snow Crash (if I could say that, since I pretty >much skimmed through the last quarter or so). And God, what an incredible >bunch of crap! How could it start so promising, and turn into >something so idiotic? I couldn't agree more, Marina. I read this book several years ago when it was considered the "revitalization of cyberpunk" or something to that effect. It was mildly amusing up to the point you describe, the theories about language and ancient Sumer, etc. but I quickly lost interest after that. I was irritated, not only because it was a load of poorly reasoned claptrap, but because it didn't fit with the rest of the book in terms of tone and pacing. I can't comment on the depiction of women since for whatever reason I didn't pay much attention to it at the time and I'm not willing to reread the book. I have found that cyberpunk in general is reactionary and hostile to women, though there are exceptions like *Trouble and Her Friends*. As another issue, even *TaHF* conceived of cyberspace in a way that I found grating -- to me the whole point of cyberspace is that it ISN'T like concrete reality, but too often authors spend a lot of time describing how it all looks and too little time dealing with issues of processor time, parallel computing, and what it means to have hundreds of copies of the same information cached throughout the Internet. (It always makes me laugh when the plot of a novel or film hinges on a bunch of people fighting over The Disk, as if no one ever thought of making a backup!) Oh well. Maybe someday I'll read a depiction I like. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Tricky -- Maxinquaye "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine In-Reply-To: <199809171250.OAA01487@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I originally read *Black Wine* several months ago and it's taken me this long to skim through it and get a grip on it again. I found myself resubmerging in its world -- wow, what a book! The first thing I noticed about the book was its wonderful style, free from cliche or repetition. It's rare to find a science fiction work that's truly well-written as well as thought-provoking. And it soon became obvious that sexuality in all its variety was going to be a common theme. I disagree with others who found the sex in the book depressing and sordid. Some of it is disturbing, but some is very affirming and positive. It all depends on the circumstances of the participants. Ea's grandmother engages in very harmful, brutal sex because that is how she relates to everything in her life. But Essa approaches sexuality from a different, more healthy perspective, because that is how she approaches everything. About the multiple viewpoints: I began to suspect the connection between the women at the second appearance of the abacus, when Essa is in the Trader town. Then when it was revealed that her mother had left when Essa was young I imagined that she would reappear eventually, so I counted how many viewpoints were cycling, and there were only three, so I concluded that the travelling diarist must be Essa's mother. I can't recall how I decided that Fierce-frightened and Essa were the same, but I was not mystified for long. I liked how the three viewpoints were distinguished by their tones, Ea's worldly-wise and analytical, Essa's adventurous and spontaneous, Fierce-frightened's cautious and ignorant. And at the end there's Elka, who from Minh's viewpoint seems almost like a Gen X-er, playing in her band, not caring about the past... but who's more complex than that, really. Though her life doesn't have the tragic elements of her foremothers', we can see that it's still interesting because Minh takes the time to get to know her better. The multiplicity of viewpoints seemed to be its own end to me. It's possible that Dorsey was making a point about escaping the cycle of abuse and about the evils of individuality... but I couldn't see it. I don't think she was saying that people are always and only the products of their environment. In some ways Annalise had a sunnier and more adventurous spirit than Ea, though the abuse she suffered appeared to be worse. And Elka shares none of her mother's and grandmother's gift for language -- instead she has music. The message came across to me as more general, something along the lines of "things change" or "people are different from one another." And I saw the book as an investigation of difference, between personalities and generations. And about the different ways people search for meaning. Marina wrote: >What I really liked was the fact that it had so many female characters -- >lots and lots of them. What I did not like that much was the fact that >there was not even one decent male character to speak of. I don't agree at all. I thought the characterizations of Minh, Lowlyn, and Escape-from-bondage were very good, as good as any of the women. The regent did seem somewhat of a caricature, though. At certain points in the book the line between realistic characters and mythic figures seemed quite blurry -- this happened with the Carrier too. I can't say it seems like a fault in the book, though, since I feel that it was in some way questioning the imposition of meaning on our daily lives. (Essa has some misgivings about this early in the book after witnessing the riot in the square. Though it all seemed like chaos at the time her mind "edits" her memories afterward, adding clarifications like sound and motivation.) So maybe these overly powerful characters are meant to seem like caricatures, figures that Essa's mind in some way creates when she is under extreme stress... Just an idea. Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >What do you think of the title, Black Wine? It is a beautiful title >but I expected it to have more significance to the story. There >is one scene in which Essa gets very drunk on black wine and her >daughter Elta prefers beer to black wine but otherwise? Did someone >figure out whether black wine is different from red or white one >(besides the color)? Red and white wine don't appear to exist in this world, so I don't have much confidence that it even resembles wine in its potency. And it is described as being "iridescent" at one point, which would imply some sort of oil content. In terms of its symbolic meaning, Essa seemed to drink it when she was in a mood to push things, to alter her circumstances, emotionally or physically. So it became a sign of change to me, change that could be freeing or wrenching, depending on how it is viewed. Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >According to the information given on the side of the review Dorsey >will publish 'The Book of Essa' soon. Perhaps it will tell the story >of Essa after she goes back to the Remarkable Mountains. But I wonder >a bit about that. For me the whole story is closed and a sequel would >be awkward. I was puzzled by this as well, but I have since come to the conclusion that *The Book of Essa* was the working title of *Black Wine* and her web page simply hasn't been updated yet. Does anyone have thoughts about whether this book is set on Earth or not? And when? I found myself puzzled by what technology cropped up. The reproductive habits of the sailors begged explanation, as did Essa's ability to make light. Also, some of the description of sexual responses seemed... odd. Made me wonder if these people were even human. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Tricky -- Maxinquaye "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:32:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: *Walk to the End of the World* and Grimness In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nicola Griffith wrote: >SLOW RIVER, I'd introduce it by saying it was, in the end, a novel about >hope, about finding beauty in the darkest places, about being able to go on >and to win. To which, Suzy McKee Charnas replied: >This is always a risky strategy, but the challenge, once sighted, is irre- >sistable! People tell me they "can't" read WALK TO THE END OF >THE WORLD because it's too grim, but I think of it as a story >of men and women finding ways to love even though they live in a >totally irrational and love-hating society which is bound to self-destruct >by reason of its inherent faults. > >But I have had to accept that the more negative reading is "in" there too, >for those who are too struck by it to get to the next level where the >positives lurk. I guess it depends on how much of a shock it is for someone to face how bad things can get. I found the descriptions of the Holdfast in *Walk to the End of the World* disturbing and powerful, but I've noticed enough horrible things happening in the real world that I didn't find it unthinkable or implausible. I was very impressed by the relationship between Alldera and Bek given these circumstances. But my housemate, who hasn't spent much time at all thinking about feminist concerns or the plight of women worldwide, read the book and seems to remember hardly anything beyond the "curdcakes". He found the idea of people eating their own dead too absurd. Oh well. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Tricky -- Maxinquaye "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:19:32 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-09-19 20:39:26 EDT, you write: << Does anyone have thoughts about whether this book is set on Earth or not? And when? I found myself puzzled by what technology cropped up. The reproductive habits of the sailors begged explanation, as did Essa's ability to make light. Also, some of the description of sexual responses seemed... odd. Made me wonder if these people were even human. >> I had the impression that this was not Earth, because of the reference to a rotating moon. The people were human, and they were somehow descended from Earth cultures because of the Shakespearean and other literary tags that were still remembered. However, this might have been mere stage dressing: there were so many little bits in this book that seemed to add atmosphere but never really led anywhere. I tried looking at the "Tarot" card readings and symbols more carefully, initially because they seemed significant and because I hoped they might add something to the meaning of the last chapter (the New Wood was the final "future" card turned up in Essa's reading). All of the cards had a general significance and symbolism, but didn't correspond very well to the very simplistic formula offered in the second reading described in the book: that the first three cards from the right signified the past, the center card was a "past-present" or personal significator, and the last three cards signified the future-- an extremely elementary way of reading a spread of only seven cards. The Cloud, the Hand, and the Pit (past) seemed much more relevant to the next couple of years in Essa's life, while the Mother and the Heart could have applied equally to her past and future; the New Wood apparently did apply to her future. The tower did seem to be a pivotal card, but rather limiting as a defining symbol for Essa: was the overthrow of the dynasty the essence of her identity? Did the New Wood have some glancing relationship to the "dead wood" cut from Essa's brain? I liked best the cover (black-on-black grape vines with the strange little chalice/castle card at the top) and Ea's account of sitting beneath Analise's corpse. And Essa stopping to read proofs before fleeing. I'd like to read something else by Dorsey, other than the discussed "sequel" to this book. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:13:23 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Deep Space Nine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just saw an episode that may have been new or old; but it was new to me. The prophets took Sisko on a little time travel journey, back to the 50's. The setting was one of the pulp magazines. Dax, and Kira, and Odo, and Quark were all there. So were Jake and Cassidy and Miles and the whole cast....but in clothing and haircuts and attitudes which I believe to be representative of the time. Benny (Sisko) was a writer on the magazine. So was Kira. Only the public at that time did not want to know that black people or women were literate, and employed in any but a menial capacity. Benny dreams of a story, and essentially writes Sisko into existence. He can't get the story published, because the hero is a Negro. When it looks like the story mey, indeed, go to press, the owner pulps the entire issue. I am a Star Trek fan. I have been, since James T. Kirk first said, "Take her out, Mr. Scott." But this, I believe, was one of the best episodes ever aired, of any of the series. It spoke directly to the central issue of what speculative fiction is: dreams of a better future. It was well written, well acted. Nobody hammed it up--exccept possibly the doctor, who has a sign reading "pork fat rules" on his forhead, even at the best of times. It also pointed out how far we have -- and have not -- come. Until I saw this episode, it hadn't occured to me to put a race label on any of the actors, and do a comparative head count. I simply had not noticed that a large part of the cast is black. This is both a good thing, and a bad one, I think. Good, because it means a lot of viewers don't care about who is what, and bad, because it means that I have forgotten, or become blind to, the things that still need to be accomplished. There is a point in the story when an announcement is made that the writers will all be photographed for the next issue. Kira says, "I suppose that means I can sleep late that day." I knew exactly what she meant, and why she said it. I also knew what was coming next; but it was something of a shock to me even as I realized it. I had "forgotten" a lot of the prejudice. I am extremely aware of it where it touches gender discrimination. I had not realized I was so callous where it concerns race. The geographic area where I live could reasonably be described as marshmallow cream on top of mayonnaise on top of wonder bread. This is not an excuse; but it may explain why I reacted as I did. I simply do not confront it daily while walking down the street. If there is any person of color who was born and raised in this country, and who saw the episode, I'd be very interested to hear your take on it. I am aware enough to know that just because _I_ think it was a good one, I am still in the wonderbread majority, who grew up unaware and untouched by a lot of this stuff. Sharon L. Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:16:00 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 16 Sep 1998 to 17 Sep 1998 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Marina wrote: > > >It was not sexual harassment, nor an "older pervert taking advantage of a > >young stupid girl" situation. She was 21 years old, damn it. > > There is sexual harassment going on here. The President is being harassed > over his sexuality, and hers. I find it interesting that this is the pres. > who is widely believed to have been put into office by "the women's vote". > And it is usually *women* who are put through grueling questioning in court > inquiries around sexual charges. Isn't this the Reactionary patriarchy > going after this man along the lines of, "*They* elected you, so you must > be in some way like *them*, so we're going to treat you the way we treat > one of them we've caught 'misbehaving' and see how you like *that*, bitch!" > (Not SF, exactly, but feminist, anyway) > > Suzy Charnas > > Suzy, I agree, and I've been saying this for a little while now, but most people haven't bothered to study the intricacies of sexual harassment unless for some sad reason they have *had* to. Interestingly enough, I watched A&E's Biography series the other night and they did a show on Hillary. After seeing it, I began to wonder if this whole entire thing was designed as a deliberate attack against her, specifically, because of her own feminism and unwillingness to behave like the "appropriate" wife. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net Join "Outsiders" (http://Outsiders.listbot.com) the mailist For Those Who Walk Alone... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:00:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Black Wine In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980918180500.09b72486@pop.kent.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Heather MacLean wrote: > "Black Wine" as a name reminds me of blood, of anti-privilege (black vs. > white), of the breaking of duality (red vs. white wine: this offers a third > path). "Midnight-blue," it is the thirst of the dark of night in your soul > as you wander the only loneliness of your choice. It is facing the unknown, > drinking it in until the fear turns to laughter, until memories are equal to > dreams. It is the witches brew; it is magic and strength. It is the concept > that doesn't fit into the language, the word combination that makes no sense > in English... > That is awesomely poetic. May I keep it for my quote book and/or pass it on?> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:12:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Snow Crash - spoilers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for telling me. I kept wondering why I'd never read it and everyone else is raving about it. If you want to get even more disgusted read Elizabeth Hand's WAKING THE MOON. Female archaeologist finds token of the Bad Old Goddess and turns into a serial killer; pro-patriarchal Secret Society has been burning witches and keeping women down for centuries just to prevent this. (Explicitly stated - the many, bloody wars of the patriarchy are better than killing one young man a year as a human sacrifice. No other way given. Not that I think the Goddess was a bunny-hugging pacifist, but still ....!!! And yes, Hand is female. VIva Athena?) Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:22:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine: Earth? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-09-19 22:21:24 EDT, you write: << I had the impression that this was not Earth, because of the reference to a rotating moon. >> On second reading (it took some time to find this passage again), she may have been referring to the moon rotating the Earth, although incorrectly phrased: "...if the moon did not rotate, scientists would never have discovered that the earth was round and circled the sun." The setting being Earth would make more sense in a way, because all the weather, terrains, and plant and animal life seem terran. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:31:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: *Walk to the End of the World* and Grimness In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980919203248.006c9dbc@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > > To which, Suzy McKee Charnas replied: > >This is always a risky strategy, but the challenge, once sighted, is irre- > >sistable! People tell me they "can't" read WALK TO THE END OF > >THE WORLD because it's too grim, but I think of it as a story > >of men and women finding ways to love even though they live in a > >totally irrational and love-hating society which is bound to self-destruct > >by reason of its inherent faults. > > >>snip<< > I guess it depends on how much of a shock it is for someone to face how bad > things can get. I found the descriptions of the Holdfast in *Walk to the > End of the World* disturbing and powerful, but I've noticed enough horrible > things happening in the real world that I didn't find it unthinkable or > implausible. I was very impressed by the relationship between Alldera and > Bek given these circumstances. I had just finished a degree with a speciality in Russian literature when I first read _Walk to the End of the World_ in the late seventies - to me, the logic of drawing all the proto-hatreds of that time out to their inexorable conclusions exactly fit what we'd been studying of Russian realism. The novel's grimness fit, as well, that far more hopeful time. Hopeful, in that women were talking and thinking out loud about our reality. Not so much now. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:35:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Deep Space Nine Comments: To: Sharon Anderson In-Reply-To: <3604C731.59CD5E85@cdsnet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, I saw that episode as well, and it is sad that this will be DS9's last year on the air. I hope that they will continue by making movies using the cast of DS9. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Sharon Anderson wrote: > I just saw an episode that may have been new or old; but it was new to me. > The prophets took Sisko on a little time travel journey, back to the 50's. > The setting was one of the pulp magazines. Dax, and Kira, and Odo, and Quark > were all there. So were Jake and Cassidy and Miles and the whole cast....but > in clothing and haircuts and attitudes which I believe to be representative of > the time. Benny (Sisko) was a writer on the magazine. So was Kira. Only the > public at that time did not want to know that black people or women were > literate, and employed in any but a menial capacity. Benny dreams of a > story, and essentially writes Sisko into existence. He can't get the story > published, because the hero is a Negro. When it looks like the story mey, > indeed, go to press, the owner pulps the entire issue. > I am a Star Trek fan. I have been, since James T. Kirk first said, "Take her > out, Mr. Scott." But this, I believe, was one of the best episodes ever > aired, of any of the series. It spoke directly to the central issue of what > speculative fiction is: dreams of a better future. It was well written, well > acted. Nobody hammed it up--exccept possibly the doctor, who has a sign > reading "pork fat rules" on his forhead, even at the best of times. > It also pointed out how far we have -- and have not -- come. Until I saw > this episode, it hadn't occured to me to put a race label on any of the > actors, and do a comparative head count. I simply had not noticed that a > large part of the cast is black. This is both a good thing, and a bad one, I > think. Good, because it means a lot of viewers don't care about who is what, > and bad, because it means that I have forgotten, or become blind to, the > things that still need to be accomplished. > There is a point in the story when an announcement is made that the writers > will all be photographed for the next issue. Kira says, "I suppose that means > I can sleep late that day." I knew exactly what she meant, and why she said > it. I also knew what was coming next; but it was something of a shock to me > even as I realized it. I had "forgotten" a lot of the prejudice. I am > extremely aware of it where it touches gender discrimination. I had not > realized I was so callous where it concerns race. > The geographic area where I live could reasonably be described as marshmallow > cream on top of mayonnaise on top of wonder bread. This is not an excuse; but > it may explain why I reacted as I did. I simply do not confront it daily > while walking down the street. > If there is any person of color who was born and raised in this country, and > who saw the episode, I'd be very interested to hear your take on it. I am > aware enough to know that just because _I_ think it was a good one, I am still > in the wonderbread majority, who grew up unaware and untouched by a lot of > this stuff. > > Sharon L. Anderson > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:40:49 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Vivian Lee Subject: Re: Deep Space Nine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I saw this ep for the fourth maybe fifth time (as of yesterday) and as a woman of color, I find joys and horrors in that ep each and every time I see it. Disturbing, thought provoking episode. If you have any kind of heart you cannot help being moved by it. Vivian ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:28:27 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: BLUE (possible spoilers) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Without revealing too much about BLUE, I'd say an arguement could be made for it being an alternate reality, in which a certain organization exists. BTW, when she signed at the store, Abbie said she had been contacted by several readers wanting to know how to reach such an organization. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:00:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:04 AM 9/21/98, Automatic digest processor wrote: > Interestingly enough, I watched A&E's Biography series the other night > and they did a show on Hillary. After seeing it, I began to wonder if > this whole entire thing was designed as a deliberate attack against her, > specifically, because of her own feminism and unwillingness to behave > like the "appropriate" wife. > >...geminiwalker I would not be surprised. The media are not owned by friends of ours. SMC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:02:41 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Thea Beckman: Children of Mother Earth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In-between the BDG books I've read an utopia by Thea Beckman over the weekend. The Dutch title is 'Kinderen van Moeder Aarde' (Children of Mother Earth). The German translation was published 2 years ago but the Dutch original is from 1984. I've no idea whether it was ever published in English, Amazon only lists another book by the author. The story plays 1000 years into the future. There was a 3rd world war with atomic and hydrogen bombs, earthquakes, tsunamis and a shift of the earth axis around our time erasing 90% of the present population. Due to the shift of the earth axis Greenland gets a much warmer climate and the descendents of the Inuit, Danish and other Europeans living there build a new, matriarchial society in Thule as they call Greenland. The people see themselves as children of Mother Earth, which is not a goddess but more a concept of the whole environment of which humans are one part. Man are blamed for the catastrophes of the 3rd world war and therefore excluded from any political power. Thule is ruled by the Konega, a heritary title, and the counsel (consisting of women delegates of the provinces). Households are headed by women, men give up work outside of home as soon as there are children to raise them. In former Europe people have also survived. An aggressive military state has formed, called Teutonia with the capital Teutoburg. Teutonia has colonised the rest of Europe and exploited the resources there. Europe is polluted, deforested, desertifying. People are poor (besides a few rich). Actually, the whole description, from the very formal speech patterns to the constant clicking of everybody's heels made me think of the Wilhelminian Reich, I suppose that was intended. In Teutonia a scientist, Kunz, has found old maps, discovered Greenland on them and reasoned that it should be habitable by now. So a expedition is sent out with the steamship Teutonia to investigate. That is the occasion to describe the society of Thule and to compare the two societies with each other. Not surprisingly Thule appears to the advantage. As in many of such books there are some aspects which are eye-opening but all in all the description how this matriarchal, environmental-friendly society works appeared naive to me. Furthermore, the novel takes as given, that men and women are inherently different (not a viewpoint I share). Men are aggressive, but energetic and innovative while women are caring, caring, and then caring, but conservative (as opposite to innovative). Accordingly, the novel ends on the note that men should be allowed more influence (5 men in a council of 26) so that the society can profit from their inherent properties but not because of any idea of equal rights. The characterisation of the actors is simple and straightforward, the book is often very didactic but not unpleasant. It reads like a youth novel. According to the blurb Thea Beckman usually writes youth novels but this one is marketed for adults. Has anybody also read the book and can comment? Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:58:01 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 Content-Type: text/plain I thought the Moon *does* rotate, but it is tidally locked to the Earth, so it always shows the same face to us. I'm sure there's someone on the list who can explain that better than I can. Danny (hasn't read it, but always good for an opinion or two) >Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:22:04 EDT >From: "Kathleen M. Friello" >Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine: Earth? > >In a message dated 98-09-19 22:21:24 EDT, you write: > ><< I had the impression that this was not Earth, because of the reference to a > rotating moon. >> > >On second reading (it took some time to find this passage again), she may have >been referring to the moon rotating the Earth, although incorrectly phrased: >"...if the moon did not rotate, scientists would never have discovered that >the earth was round and circled the sun." > >The setting being Earth would make more sense in a way, because all the >weather, terrains, and plant and animal life seem terran. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:57:21 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit OK, I jumped a few steps: (BTW, for an explanation of the moon's rotation: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part5/section-18.html) I thought the rotation of the moon mentioned in the book would have to be discernible; on second reading, I thought that it was our Earth and moon being discussed, but that Dorsey really meant the rotation of the moon around the Earth: "...if the moon did not rotate, scientists would never have discovered that the earth was round and circled the sun." How would a people as yet unaware of the Earth as a sphere be able to observe this "invisible" rotation, and from it be able to intuit the shape and orbit of the Earth? The more "visible" rotation of the moon around the Earth, if it was our Earth and moon Dorsey meant, seemed to me to be what she was talking about. Of course, this could be overly picky; there are many little red herrings in Black Wine, "facts" that don't add up if they're taken beyond face value. However, why bother to drop a hint or indicator like this if it can't be read? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:00:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Utopies feministes (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:13:05 -0400 From: P. Fitting To: UTOPIA-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Utopies feministes (fwd) > > > TESSERA: > FEMINIST INTERVENTIONS IN WRITING AND CULTURE > > CALL FOR PAPERS > > > ** FEMINIST UTOPIAS ** > > > TESSERA invites you to submit creative and/or critical work inspired by a > utopian impulse for our summer 1999 issue. > > Political, sexual, technological, millennial--what kind of dreams and > anxieties motivate/are motivated by utopianism? What is the relationship > between 'no place' and 'this place'? between feminist politics and > feminist visions of a liberatory elsewhere not yet realized? How do > utopias become transgressive imaginative sites? idealistic evasions? > self-constructed prisons? In what ways do women explore the potential of > utopianism in science fiction and fantasy? on the internet? in alternative > communities? How do feminist utopian projects intersect with other > social-political projects? Chart the domain of the ideal and/or > impossible. > > **** DEADLINE: FEBRUARY 28, 1999 **** > > __________________________________________________________ > > SEND US YOUR WRITING AND VISUAL ART > > Critical essays, poetry, fiction, non-fiction, rants, comics, as well as > writing that traverses or resists traditional genres. High quality > photocopies of your photography, drawing, collage, performance, video or > installation. > > TESSERA publishes the creative and theoretical work of Canadian and > Quebecois feminists. Please send both a hard copy and a diskette > (WordPerfect or Microsoft Word) and include a brief biographical note. > > > PLEASE SEND YOUR SUBMISSIONS TO: > > TESSERA > C/O LIANNE MOYES > DEPARTEMENT D'ETUDES ANGLAISES > UNIVERSITE DE MONTREAL > C.P. 6128, SUCCURSALE CENTRE-VILLE > MONTREAL, QC > H3C 3J7 > > FAX: (514) 343-6443 > > > > > > T E S S E R A > > DEMANDES DE TEXTES : UTOPIES FEMINISTES > > TESSERA: Interventions litteraires et culturelles feministes, vous invite > a soumettre des oeuvres de fictions et/ou critiques inspirees par une > impulsion utopique. Politique, sexuel, technologique, millenariste--quel > genre de reves et d'anxietes motivent et sont motives par l'utopisme? > Quelle est la relation entre les politiques feministes et les visions > feministes d'un ailleurs liberateur qui n'est toujours pas atteint? > Comment les utopies deviennent des sites de resistance et d'imagination? > des evasions idealistes? des prisons construites par soi-memes? De quelles > facons est-ce que les femmes explorent le potentiel de l'utopisme dans la > science-fiction et dans le fantasme? sur l'internet? dans les communautes > alternatives? Comment les projets utopiques feministes croisent dÕautres > projets socio-politiques? Explorez le domaine de l'impossible! > > ENVOYEZ-NOUS VOS TEXTES ET VOTRE ART VISUEL: Essais, reflexions, poemes, > textes de fiction, textes non-fictifs, bandes dessinees, tout comme vos > textes qui traversent ou resistent les genres traditionels. Photocopies de > qualite superieure pour vos photos, dessins, collages, performances, > videos, ou installations. > > TESSERA publie les oeuvres theoriques et creatives de feministes > canadiennes et quebecoises. Vos textes et illustrations doivent etre > assortis d'une courte biographie ainsi que d'une disquette (3,5) > WordPerfect ou Word. > > DATE DE TOMBEE : 28 FEVRIER 1999 > > > SOUMISSION DE TEXTES: > > TESSERA/ Lianne Moyes > Departement d'etudes anglaises > Universite de Montreal, > C.P. 6128, Succursale centre-ville > Montreal QC H3C 3J7. > > Telecopieur : (514) 343-6443 > > > > * * * -- Peter Fitting tel 416-531-8593 73 Delaware Ave fax 416-531-4157 Toronto M6H 2S9 CANADA e-mail fitting@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:32:17 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stephanie N. Huthmacher" Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit the moon revolves around the earth, but does not rotate in and of itself... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:43:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Snow Crash - spoilers -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The author of Snow Crash also wrote a book, Zodiac, about a bunch of environmental activists. It's funny, but it too has that "rescue the women" thing, and also the immortal observation, which I'll paraphrase, that: "The news crews at the protest were really surprised to see our spokeswoman, because she wasn't ugly OR a lesbian, like they would expect with the environmental movement. Instead she was cute and charming and petite." Given that I read this before I was actually politically active and given that I am by no means adorable or straight, it's a wonder that I got political at all. What a schmuck. Snowcrash is a funny book. That aside, it's really annoying. Yes, Americans do feel free to bash the Russians. I'd add that Americans also feel free to bash Chinese people, provided that they aren't living here. Anyone who lives in a formerly communist nation is supposed to be a dupe, corrupt, or evil. When I lived in China--when I was happily living in that beautiful country--I was constantly appalled by the way the foreign community talked about the local Chinese people, saying that they were stupid and greedy and so on. Very few people seemed to want a nuanced understanding of Chinese history--either they wanted to believe in communism as the Big Tragedy, with China full of miserable, rebellious people, or they wanted to see communism as the Big Corruption, with everybody working some scam. And no one wanted to understand the flow of Chinese history, why China became communist and how communism relates to patterns of Chinese history. Everyone wanted to oversimplify! ! , so that they could pigeonhole and dismiss Chinese people. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:00:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG announcements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Time for a little book discussion group (BDG) administration bandwidth. First, remember we begin discussing Shadow Man on Monday October 5th. You have two weeks to read it if you haven't started yet. Second, it's already time to start the nomination/voting process for the next round of books. Petra, Terri and I have worked out a schedule for nominations Sept. 25-Oct 2, then voting Oct. 5-Oct. 9 or thereabouts. So you should begin thinking about what books you want to nominate for the next round. I'll publish a more formal schedule soon. In the meantime, now's the time to consider changes to the system. Several of you have recommended selecting no more than three or four books at a time. This means voting more often but other than that we can do it. We should still do the selection process at least three months before discussion to let everyone have time to get the books and read them. Another thing to consider is taking a holiday break. Our last currently scheduled discussion is for December. Do we want to take off the next month, January? That means no required reading during December; and discussion resumes in February. Anything else you want to change about the whole BDG process? You can look at the web page for a summary of how the nomination/voting process works: http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/ Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 In-Reply-To: <19980921145801.28205.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:58 AM 9/21/98 PDT, Daniel Krashin wrote: >I thought the Moon *does* rotate, but it is tidally locked to the >Earth, so it always shows the same face to us. I'm sure there's >someone on the list who can explain that better than I can. The moon rotates once a month. Otherwise, over the course of a month it would appear to rotate once. Imagine you are looking at the moon. Its back is facing the part of the sky where you see the moon. As the month progresses, the back of the moon is facing a place in the sky which moves around the entire sky. (Of course, the front of the moon, which we see, is facing the opposite point in the sky, the one behind your head when you're looking at the moon.) So through the month, it rotates once. Does that help? Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:47:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: cyberpunk comments In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980919164705.0075b638@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:47 PM 09/19/98 -0400, Janice wrote: >As another issue, even *TaHF* conceived of cyberspace in a way that I found >grating -- to me the whole point of cyberspace is that it ISN'T like >concrete reality, but too often authors spend a lot of time describing how >it all looks and too little time dealing with issues of processor time, >parallel computing, and what it means to have hundreds of copies of the >same information cached throughout the Internet. (It always makes me laugh >when the plot of a novel or film hinges on a bunch of people fighting over >The Disk, as if no one ever thought of making a backup!) Oh well. Maybe >someday I'll read a depiction I like. Interesting concepts. I'd love to hear how Melissa Scott takes on that aspect of data replication. Have you read her Night Sky Mine? A very non-cyberpunk depiction of being online. Your suggestion of the implications of cached information makes me think of Linda Nagata's The Bohr Maker. In this story, people can "travel" long distances by downloading themselves into other physical shells. They also spew out little nanotech particles that carry messages to a particular destination. Thus, a person could exist in one place, and have a replica of themselves existing elsewhere. As I recall, the little message particles could catch up to the original person before or after the replica itself is merged back in, I might have this wrong, but it seemed like this asynchronous messaging sometimes was confusing to the original person. That is, the replica may be elsewhere and do or learn something, but the original person doesn't know about it until the little message particles find them. I thought this book was really crammed with interesting ideas. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:17:36 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980921160300.007a57c0@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII moon rotation - well, if the moon isn't rotating my head is. The moon, since one face is tidally locked to us, is clearly not rotating ON ITS OWN AXIS. It is going round the earth, but this is ORBITING. Isn't it? ************************************************************** Dr Patricia Monk patmonk@is.dal.ca Department of English Dalhousie University HALIFAX Nova Scotia B3H 2S3 ignorance is curable * stupidity is forever ************************************************************** On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Neil Rest wrote: > At 07:58 AM 9/21/98 PDT, Daniel Krashin wrote: > >I thought the Moon *does* rotate, but it is tidally locked to the > >Earth, so it always shows the same face to us. I'm sure there's > >someone on the list who can explain that better than I can. > > The moon rotates once a month. Otherwise, over the course of a month it > would appear to rotate once. > > Imagine you are looking at the moon. Its back is facing the part of the > sky where you see the moon. > As the month progresses, the back of the moon is facing a place in the sky > which moves around the entire sky. (Of course, the front of the moon, > which we see, is facing the opposite point in the sky, the one behind your > head when you're looking at the moon.) So through the month, it rotates once. > > > Does that help? > > Neil > NeilRest@tezcat.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Frankenstein and Dracula info request In-Reply-To: <19980921191017043.AAA192@jennifer.actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I remember long ago we mentioned Frankenstein as a fem. sf book... That and Dracula are now topics of discussion in my Romantic and Victorian Lit class. Could anyone point me to some good reference books / websites that discuss the feminist aspects, or discussion of Mary Shelly's background, or the treatment of women in these books? The people in my class need some shaking up from their patriarchial views; I'm just the person to do it for them. Thanks so much. Jenn athena@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464 ------------------------------------- * You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:52:33 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: Frankenstein and Dracula info request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jenn mottram wrote: > > I remember long ago we mentioned Frankenstein as a fem. sf book... That > and Dracula are now topics of discussion in my Romantic and Victorian Lit > class. Could anyone point me to some good reference books / websites that > discuss the feminist aspects, or discussion of Mary Shelly's background, or > the treatment of women in these books? The people in my class need some > shaking up from their patriarchial views; I'm just the person to do it for > them. > > Thanks so much. > Jenn, I recommend a subscription to the Victoria list, which frequently discusses such subjects. It's at VICTORIA@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Carol Mitchell > Jenn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:37:12 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: cyberpunk comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/21/98 10:06:51 PM, Jennifer wrote: <> -- and just to prove there's nothing new under the sun -- Euripides seldom- studied play "Helen" has Helen of Troy in Egypt and under the protection of the pharoah and her ethereal double mucking around in Troy. Variation on the old myth. smiling phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:51:02 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Frankenstein and Dracula info request In-Reply-To: <199809212109.RAA07145@pop.snet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found the following by typing "+frankenstein + feminist" (without the quotes) into the box at altavista.digital.com - these were just on the first couple pages. http://www.netaxs.com/~kwbridge/maryshel.html http://humanitas.ucsb.edu/shuttle/eng-rom.html#m-shelley http://www-admrec.sonoma.edu/ar/Staff/AxsomDissertation.html Good luck! -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: jenn mottram [mailto:athena@GEOCITIES.COM] > Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 2:14 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Frankenstein and Dracula info request > > > I remember long ago we mentioned Frankenstein as a fem. sf > book... That > and Dracula are now topics of discussion in my Romantic and > Victorian Lit > class. Could anyone point me to some good reference books / > websites that > discuss the feminist aspects, or discussion of Mary Shelly's > background, or > the treatment of women in these books? The people in my > class need some > shaking up from their patriarchial views; I'm just the person > to do it for > them. > > Thanks so much. > > Jenn > > athena@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2464 > ------------------------------------- > * You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:39:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Snow Crash In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to contribute a couple of tangential comments on this thread -- without disagreeing with its main thrust! At 11:54 AM 6/22/98 +0100, Alison Page wrote: >IMHO a 'right wing' book has an arbitrary morality, where a favoured few >are saved and other characters are simply written off. In the Diamond Age >(the next book by NS) the heroine is saved and her brother is destroyed, >and it seems to be done in a rather callous way. It's like 'might is right' >or perhaps more accurately 'being lucky is all that matters'. Unfortunately, in real life, pure luck regularly *does* make all the difference. At 05:00 AM 9/19/98 -0500, Marina wrote: >For one thing, human brain's natural "wiring" for a language is not >anything like Programmable Read-Only Memory or whatever he calls it. >I remember enough from my Electrical Engineering class to know that those >things could be only programmed once. That's why they are called >read-only. If human brain was the same way, it would mean that once a >person learns a language, their brain is permanently altered, so they >cannot be "programmed" for another one. You cannot change PROM's, it's the >same as the mechanism for a music box, or a regular music CD -- once you >mold it, or put all those holes there in a specific pattern, that's where >they are going to be. If that was the case with the brain's ability to >learn languages, I would not be thinking in English right now. I could >barely speak it four years ago, when I came to US, and now I have to stop >and search for words when I try to talk in Russian to my Mom. It's not "language" which is suspected of being hard-wired, so much as grammar and structure of language. All human languages turn out to have a lot in common, and no matter how different the languages, children learn them the same, incredibly fast, way. (A child learns approximately one new word per hour from the age of two to the age of six, for instance!) Similarly, it is well known that there is an optimum age for learning language. A child can learn several languages at once, relatively easily, during this time, but later on, new languages get progressively more difficult. This strongly suggests that there is a "language learning" stage in brain development. At 11:43 AM 9/21/98 -0500, Jane Franklin wrote: >"The news crews at the protest were really surprised to see our spokeswoman, because she wasn't ugly OR a lesbian, like they would expect with the environmental movement. Instead she was cute and charming and petite." Sad to say, many news crews *would* be surprised at that. Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:57:45 -0600 Reply-To: egarrett@du.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erin Garrett Organization: None Subject: Re: Frankenstein and Dracula info request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------95774FD4FF0FA2220B28294C" --------------95774FD4FF0FA2220B28294C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It just so happens that Mary Shelley is one of my pet projects. There's a wonderful electronic text of _The Last Man_ with links to a variety of biographical info, original 19th century reviews of _Frankenstein_ , and an excellent bibliography of biographical writings. The URL is http://www.luc.edu/depts/english/lm/ For a chronology MWS's life, check out http://www.english.udel.edu/swilson/mws/chrono.html#1833 You might also try skimming _Romanticism on the Net_, a peer reviewed electronic journal that often features articles on the Shelley circle: www-sul.stanford.edu/mirrors/romnet/ Let's see, what else can I tell you? One of the most often discussed feminist interpretations of MWS and Frankenstein is Anne Mellor's _Mary Shelley: Her Life, Her Fiction, Her Monsters_. I'll go ahead and warn you that there is a ton of stuff out there. If you really want to be overwhelmed, check out Lyle's bibliography, which, though somewhat dated, lists all of the movies, articles, and reviews related to Mary Shelley through (I think) 1975. Feel free to contact me if you'd like to bounce around some ideas. I'm writing my dissertation on this "other Shelley" and would love to gab. Good luck! Erin > I remember long ago we mentioned Frankenstein as a fem. sf book... That > and Dracula are now topics of discussion in my Romantic and Victorian Lit > class. Could anyone point me to some good reference books / websites that > discuss the feminist aspects, or discussion of Mary Shelly's background, or > the treatment of women in these books? --------------95774FD4FF0FA2220B28294C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It just so happens that Mary Shelley is one of my pet projects.  There's a wonderful electronic text of _The Last Man_ with links to a variety of biographical info, original 19th century reviews of _Frankenstein_ , and an excellent bibliography of biographical writings.  The URL is http://www.luc.edu/depts/english/lm/

For a chronology MWS's life, check out
http://www.english.udel.edu/swilson/mws/chrono.html#1833
 

You might also try skimming _Romanticism on the Net_, a peer reviewed electronic journal that often features articles on the Shelley circle:   www-sul.stanford.edu/mirrors/romnet/

Let's see, what else can I tell you?  One of the most often discussed feminist interpretations of MWS and Frankenstein is Anne Mellor's _Mary Shelley:  Her Life, Her Fiction, Her Monsters_.

I'll go ahead and warn you that there is a ton of stuff out there.  If you really want to be overwhelmed, check out Lyle's bibliography, which, though somewhat dated, lists all of the movies, articles, and reviews related to Mary Shelley through (I think) 1975.

Feel free to contact me if you'd like to bounce around some ideas.  I'm writing my dissertation on this "other Shelley" and would love to gab.

Good luck!
Erin
 

I remember long ago we mentioned Frankenstein as a fem. sf book...  That
and Dracula are now topics of discussion in my Romantic and Victorian Lit
class. Could anyone point me to some good reference books / websites that
discuss the feminist aspects, or discussion of Mary Shelly's background, or
the treatment of women in these books?
  --------------95774FD4FF0FA2220B28294C-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:05:01 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Vivian Lee Subject: Re: Thea Beckman: Children of Mother Earth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This kind of reminds me of Egalia's Daughters (German title Egalias Tochters). Anyone else? Vivian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:43:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: cyberpunk comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer wrote: >Your suggestion of the implications of cached information makes me think of >Linda Nagata's The Bohr Maker. In this story, people can "travel" long >distances by downloading themselves into other physical shells. They also >spew out little nanotech particles that carry messages to a particular >destination. Thus, a person could exist in one place, and have a replica >of themselves existing elsewhere. As I recall, the little message >particles could catch up to the original person before or after the replica >itself is merged back in, I might have this wrong, but it seemed like this >asynchronous messaging sometimes was confusing to the original person. >That is, the replica may be elsewhere and do or learn something, but the >original person doesn't know about it until the little message particles >find them. I thought this book was really crammed with interesting ideas. I don't remember if they were "little message particles" physically, or if the "particles" could be electronic as well. At any rate, some sort of "information packets" that travelled around almost (to me) like courier pigeons. I, too, think that this book was literally crammed with interesting ideas. Some of them not exactly mainstream, at least in "western" science fiction. In fact, I think this book is quite good, and hasn't received the attention it should have (or if it has, I haven't heard about it...) And I think that there is at least some feminist content there, too. The main character is a low-caste woman who has been genetically tempered with so that she looks like a child... but she manages to be both strong and believable through-out. Of course, how much of this is due to her character and how much to the nanotech in her system, you don't know. The main "bad guy" is also a woman, and not portrayed very favorably. But, then again, pretty much all of the people in power who control technology are not portrayed particularly favorably, and the majority of these are not women. More than gender, the book is concerned with class, the haves (of technology) and the have-nots. The main character lives in a poor region and is certainly a have-not. Even more interesting is a genetically engineered non-human who is such a have-not that he is treated like property, and has traded sexual favors for the right to go on living. Anyway, I don't want to say any more that might be a spoiler. Although this is not the absolute best book I have ever read, it is more than worthwhile reading. Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:16:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Frankenstein and Dracula info request In-Reply-To: <199809212109.RAA07145@pop.snet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:13 PM 9/21/98 -0400, jenn mottram wrote: >I remember long ago we mentioned Frankenstein as a fem. sf book... That >and Dracula are now topics of discussion in my Romantic and Victorian Lit >class. Could anyone point me to some good reference books / websites that >discuss the feminist aspects, or discussion of Mary Shelly's background, or >the treatment of women in these books? The people in my class need some >shaking up from their patriarchial views; I'm just the person to do it for >them. (Pardon my lnaguage, but) One of the motifs which can be seen in _Frankenstein_ is rather Freudian. Mary Wollstonecraft died in childbirth with Mary Shelly; the book is about a creation which destroys its creator. There are explicit themes of dealing honestly and honorably with those one has brought into the world, too. Try checking some of the Usual Suspects in the sf/lit crit game. The SFRA comes to mind. And please let us know what you come up with! Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:37:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: cyberpunk comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/21/98 5:45:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bgray@ECE.UCDAVIS.EDU writes: << I, too, think that this book was literally crammed with interesting ideas. Some of them not exactly mainstream, at least in "western" science fiction. In fact, I think this book is quite good, and hasn't received the attention it should have (or if it has, I haven't heard about it...) >> Oh, rats. Where was I? Could someone please advise which book this is...it sounds so interesting... Madrone