File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9809D" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:37:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: BEING AN EVIL OVERLORD This was obviously written by a non-feminist man. Should aspiring evil overlords gain this information, it could abolish adventure novels. Keep it a secret from the power hungry. Joyce > >BEING AN EVIL OVERLORD >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >This list is Copyright 1996 by Peter Anspach >(anspach@aftermath.math.uoknor.edu) >If you enjoy it, feel free to pass it along or post it >anywhere, provided that (1) it is not altered in any way, >and (2) this copyright notice is attached. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > >Being an Evil Overlord seems to be a good career choice. It pays well, there >are all sorts of perks and you can set your own hours. However,every Evil >Overlord I've read about in books or seen in movies invariably gets overthrown >and destroyed in the end. I've noticed that no matter whether they are >barbarian lords, deranged wizards, mad scientists or alien invaders, they >always seem to make the same basic mistakes every single time. Therefore, if I >ever happen to become an Evil Overlord... > > > 1. My legions of terror will have helmets with clear Plexiglas visors, not >face-concealing ones. > > 2. My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through. > > 3. My noble half-brother whose throne I usurped will be killed, not kept >anonymously imprisoned in a forgotten cell of my dungeon. > > 4. Shooting is not too good for my enemies. > > 5. The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the >Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of >Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. > > 6. I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them. > > 7. When the rebel leader challenges me to fight one-on-one and asks, "Or are >you afraid without your armies to back you up?" My reply will be, "No, just >sensible." > > 8. When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, >will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No" and shoot >him. > > 9. After I kidnap the beautiful princess, we will be married immediately in a >quiet civil ceremony, not a lavish spectacle in three weeks' time during which >the final phase of my plan will be carried out. > >10. I will not include a self-destruct mechanism unless absolutely necessary. >If it is necessary, it will not be a large red button labeled "Danger: Do Not >Push." The big red button marked "Do Not Push" will instead trigger a spray of >bullets on anyone stupid enough to disregard it. Similarly, the ON/OFF switch >will not clearly be labeled as such. > >11. I will not order my trusted lieutenant to kill the infant who is destined >to overthrow me -- I'll do it myself. > >12. I will not interrogate my enemies in the inner sanctum -- a small hotel >well outside my borders will work just as well. > >13. I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need to prove >it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my weaker enemies alive >to show they pose no threat. > >14. I will not waste time making my enemy's death look like an accident -- I'm >not accountable to anyone and my other enemies wouldn't believe it. > >15. I will make it clear that I do know the meaning of the word "mercy"; I >simply choose not show them any. > >16. One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my >plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation. > >17. All slain enemies will be cremated, or at least have several rounds of >ammunition emptied into them, not left for dead at the bottom of the cliff. >The announcement of their deaths, as well as any accompanying celebration, will >be deferred until after the aforementioned disposal. > >18. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as members of >my organization, nor will they be required to wear military boots or adhere to >any other dress codes. > >19. The hero is not entitled to a last kiss, a last cigarette, or any other >form of last request. > >20. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that >such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the >counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation. > >21. I will design all doomsday machines myself. If I must hire a mad scientist >to assist me, I will make sure that he is sufficiently twisted to never regret >his evil ways and seek to undo the damage he's caused. > >22. I will never utter the sentence "But before I kill you, >there's just one thing I want to know." > >23. When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally >listen to their advice. > >24. I will not have a son. Although his laughably under-planned attempt to >usurp power would easily fail, it would provide a fatal distraction at a >crucial point in time. > >25. I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, but >one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father. > >26. Despite its proven stress-relieving effect, I will not indulge in maniacal >laughter. When so occupied, it's too easy to miss unexpected developments that >a more attentive individual could adjust to accordingly. > >27. I will hire a talented fashion designer to create original uniforms for my >legions of terror, as opposed to some cheap knock-offs that make them look like >Nazi stormtroopers, Roman footsoldiers, or savage Mongol hordes. All were >eventually defeated and I want my troops to have a more positive mind-set. > >28. No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not >consume any energy field bigger than my head. > >29. I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in >their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power >generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless -- my troops >will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and rocks. > >30. I will maintain a realistic assessment of my strengths and weaknesses. >Even though this takes some of the fun out of the job, at least I will never >utter the line "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!!" (After that, death is >usually instantaneous.) > >31. No matter how well it would perform, I will never construct any sort of >machinery which is completely indestructible except for one small and virtually >inaccessible vulnerable spot. > >32. If I am engaged in a duel to the death with the hero and I am fortunate >enough to knock the weapon out of his hand, I will graciously allow him to >retrieve it. This is not from a sense of fair play; rather, he will be so >startled and confused that I will easily be able to dispatch him. > >33. No matter how attractive certain members of the rebellion are, there is >probably someone just as attractive who is not desperate to kill me. >Therefore, I will think twice before ordering a prisoner sent to my bedchamber. > >34. I will never build only one of anything important. For the same reason I >will always carry at least two fully loaded weapons at all times. > >35. If my supreme command center comes under attack, I will immediately flee to >safety in my prepared escape pod and direct the defenses from there. I will >not wait until the troops break into my inner sanctum to attempt this. > >36. My pet monster will be kept in a secure cage from which it cannot escape >and into which I could not accidentally stumble. > >37. Even though I don't really care, because I plan on living forever, I will >hire engineers who are able to build me a fortress sturdy enough that, if I am >slain, it won't tumble to the ground for no good structural reason. > >38. I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into >confusion. > >39. All bumbling conjurers, clumsy squires, no-talent bards, and cowardly >thieves in the land will be pre-emptively put to death. My foes will surely >give up and abandon their quest if they have no source of comic relief. > >40. All naive, busty tavern wenches in my realm will be replaced with surly, >world-weary waitresses who will provide no unexpected reinforcement and/or >romantic subplot for the hero or his sidekick. > >41. Any and all magic and/or technology that can miraculously resurrect a >secondary character who has given up his/her life through self sacrifice will >be outlawed and destroyed. > >42. I will not fly into a rage and kill a messenger who brings me bad news just >to illustrate how evil I really am. Good messengers are hard to come by. > >43. I will see to it that plucky young lads/lasses in strange clothes and with >the accent of an outlander shall REGULARLY climb some monument in the main >square of my capital and denounce me, claim to know the secret of my power, >rally the masses to rebellion, etc. That way, the citizens will be jaded in >case the real thing ever comes along. > >44. I won't require high-ranking female members of my organization to wear a >stainless-steel bustier. Morale is better with a more casual dress-code. >Similarly, outfits made entirely from black leather will be reserved for formal >occasions. > >45. I will not employ devious schemes that involve the hero's party getting >into my inner sanctum before the trap is sprung. > >46. I will not turn into a snake. It never helps. > >47. I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. >Now they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X. > >48. I will not imprison members of the same party in the same cell block, let >alone the same cell. If they are important prisoners, I will keep the only key >to the cell door on my person instead of handing out copies to every >bottom-rung guard in the prison. > >49. If my trusted lieutenant tells me my Legions of Terror are losing a >battle, I will believe him. After all, he's my trusted lieutenant. > >50. If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring anywhere, >I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead of waiting for them >to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards me in my old age. > >51. If I absolutely must ride into battle, I will certainly not ride at the >forefront of my Legions of Terror, nor will I seek out my opposite number among >his army. > >52. I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable >superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping >it in reserve. > >53. Once my power is secure, I will destroy all those pesky time-travel >devices. > >54. I will offer oracles the choice of working exclusively for me or being >executed. > >55. When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, >ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying ropes and >filching keys happens to follow him around. > >56. I will maintain a healthy amount of skepticism when I capture the beautiful >rebel and she claims she is attracted to my power and good looks and will >gladly betray her companions if I just let her in on my plans. > >57. I will only employ bounty hunters who work for money. Those who work for >the pleasure of the hunt tend to do dumb things like even the odds to give the >other guy a sporting chance. > >58. I will not rely entirely upon "totally reliable" spells that can be >neutralized by relatively inconspicuous talisman. > >59. I will make sure I have a clear understanding of who is responsible for >what in my organization. For example, if my general screws up, I will not draw >my weapon, point it at him, say "And here is the price for failure," then >suddenly turn and kill some random underling. > >60. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man >possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. > >61. If I learn that a callow youth has begun a quest to destroy me, I will slay >him while he is still a callow youth instead of waiting for him to mature. > >62. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with >respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not >immediately come after me for revenge. > >63. If I learn the whereabouts of the one artifact that can destroy me, I will >not send all my troops out to seize it. Instead, I will send them out to seize >something else and quietly put a want ad in the local paper. > >64. My main computers will have their own special operating system that will be >completely incompatible with standard IBM and Macintosh powerbooks. > >65. I will make the main entrance to my fortress standard-sized. While >elaborate 60-foot high double-doors definitely impress the masses, they are >hard to close quickly in an emergency. > >66. If one of my dungeon guards begins expressing concern over the conditions >in the beautiful princess' cell, I will immediately transfer him to a less >people-oriented position. > >67. I will hire a team of board-certified architects and surveyors to examine >my castle and inform me of any secret passages and abandoned tunnels that I >might not know about. > >68. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! >Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say, "Oh well." and kill her. > >69. I will not strike a bargain with a demonic being, then attempt to >double-cross it simply because I feel like being contrary. > >70. Finally, to keep my subjects permanently locked in a mindless trance, I >will provide each of them with free unlimited Internet access. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:50:43 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Frankenstein info request Comments: To: Sandy Candioglos In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If you type in "Frankenstein" on the search form for the database of scholarly articles complied by the Science Fiction Foundation (http://sherlock.SIMS.Berkeley.EDU/SF_archive/) you find quite a few references to scholarly work on Frankenstein -- and MOST of them seem to be looking at the feminist aspects of the work. Didn't check Dracula, I am afraid! Edward James .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK Director, Graduate Centre for Medieval Studies Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:25:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: cyberpunk comments In-Reply-To: <19980921220911578.AAA179@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > > Your suggestion of the implications of cached information makes me think of > Linda Nagata's The Bohr Maker. In this story, people can "travel" long > distances by downloading themselves into other physical shells. They also > spew out little nanotech particles that carry messages to a particular > destination. Thus, a person could exist in one place, and have a replica > of themselves existing elsewhere. As I recall, the little message New book, same subject: Laura Mixon's PROXIES. She's from here in Albuquerque.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:04:44 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: BDG holiday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I like Jennifer's proposal about taking December off. I know it is a particularly busy time for me, for retail, and people may find it a busy holiday time as well. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:23:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: stereotyping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jane Franklin noted (at the end of a very interesting post): "Everyone wanted to oversimplify!, so that they could pigeonhole and dismiss Chinese people." Oversimplification and overgeneralization is at the heart of stereotyping which is at the heart of making whole groups the "OTher," that is, removing from the category of "human." This is true of all humans: most of the names American Indian tribes had for themselves meant "the People," with everybody else being "outside," or "other." Humans probably need the ability they have to generalize: if you had to stop and 'learn' about everything on a case by case basis, you'd soon be dead. But generalizing can be overdone, can solidify into custom or law or both, and can be locked into place. Any group who has the power (political, or the power of the majority, or any other power in a culture) tends to oversimplify other groups: formerly oppressed groups are not above this tendency when they reach power either. I've seen women students (who outnumber male students in my classes) feel free to say the most appallingly sexist and vicious things about "all men" in class discussion. The "cure" is hard work--but also simple. The more people know about other individuals, the less they stereotype. Personal knowledge is best. It's also quite interesting to see what happens with someone who has been used to being in the majority/dominant group is suddenly in the 'minority" position. You learn the power of simplifying when it's aimed at you. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:06:05 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: future of "race" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of James Michener's books mentions that in the Portuguese colonies in Africa, beautiful Black women would put a thick white paste on their faces trying to look white. The protaganist of the story would try to convince then that a young, slim Black woman with attractive features was more beautiful than a heavy, swarthy, middleaged European woman, but without success. Under apartheid it was possible for full siblings to be placed in different racial classes based on appearance, especially skin color. There have been several books based on the invention of a pill or something similar that would turn everyone's skin the same color, and what the results would be. Ashley Montagu, the anthropologist, wrote a book on race quite some time ago. You might enjoy reading it. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:50:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: OT: Book news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rachel Pollack's GOMOTHER NIGHT is on sale at Bookstar. I found the hardback for $3.98. Grab them while the grabbibg's good. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:00:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: cyberpunk comments In-Reply-To: <19980921220911578.AAA179@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > As I recall, the little message > particles could catch up to the original person before or after the replica > itself is merged back in, I might have this wrong, but it seemed like this > asynchronous messaging sometimes was confusing to the original person. > That is, the replica may be elsewhere and do or learn something, but the > original person doesn't know about it until the little message particles > find them. I thought this book was really crammed with interesting ideas. > > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > This author has *got* to have worked as a data base designer in a shop where the supervisor wouldn't let her design fully relational databases because he didn't understand the concept :-) Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:46:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Walto Subject: Snow Crash Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just got caught up on over a week's worth of digest. (Please, please snip.) I read Snow Crash many years ago and remember it being very funny. I also remember that it's not feminist in the least. I usually recommend it to male science fiction readers. I figure they'll like it. Stephenson also wrote another book titled "The Diamond Age." I thought that book was strange. IMHO Susan Walto ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:23:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII THe Moon is doing both -- rotating AND orbiting. The same as the Earth rotates by itself while orbiting around the Sun. The example that was used in my forth-grade science textbook explained the way it works like this: Imagine yourself standing by a round table in a room with four walls -- Northern, Southern, Eastern, and Western. Now, try moving around the table, always facing the table. Eventually, you'll get to the place where you have started. This is orbiting. While you were going around the table, you have consequently faced all four walls of the room -- therefore, you have turned around yourself. This is rotation. Finally, all the time you were rotating and orbiting, you stayed facing the table. Therefore, even though you have turned around yourself, the table and everything on it kept "seeing" only one side of you -- the one with the face. Because the speed of your rotation around yourself was the same as the speed of your orbiting, from the table's point of view, you were not turning, even though you actually did. The same as the Moon is always turned with the same side to Earth, while rotating and orbiting. I could draw you a picture to illustrate this if this was a Windows mail program. Unfortunately, my school is too cheap to have anything but Unix. I'm pretty sure they have lots of the information about this on the Internet, including pictures. Btw, everything in the Universe rotates around it's axis. The opposite would be against the laws of physics. Marina At the sameOn Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Patricia Monk wrote: > moon rotation - well, if the moon isn't rotating my head is. > > The moon, since one face is tidally locked to us, is clearly not rotating > ON ITS OWN AXIS. It is going round the earth, but this is ORBITING. > > Isn't it? > > ************************************************************** > Dr Patricia Monk patmonk@is.dal.ca > Department of English > Dalhousie University > HALIFAX Nova Scotia B3H 2S3 > > ignorance is curable * stupidity is forever > ************************************************************** > > On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Neil Rest wrote: > > > At 07:58 AM 9/21/98 PDT, Daniel Krashin wrote: > > >I thought the Moon *does* rotate, but it is tidally locked to the > > >Earth, so it always shows the same face to us. I'm sure there's > > >someone on the list who can explain that better than I can. > > > > The moon rotates once a month. Otherwise, over the course of a month it > > would appear to rotate once. > > > > Imagine you are looking at the moon. Its back is facing the part of the > > sky where you see the moon. > > As the month progresses, the back of the moon is facing a place in the sky > > which moves around the entire sky. (Of course, the front of the moon, > > which we see, is facing the opposite point in the sky, the one behind your > > head when you're looking at the moon.) So through the month, it rotates once. > > > > > > Does that help? > > > > Neil > > NeilRest@tezcat.com > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:59:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Snow Crash In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980921163928.007d2160@tezcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Neil Rest wrote: > It's not "language" which is suspected of being hard-wired, so much as > grammar and structure of language. All human languages turn out to have a > lot in common, and no matter how different the languages, children learn > them the same, incredibly fast, way. (A child learns approximately one new > word per hour from the age of two to the age of six, for instance!) > Similarly, it is well known that there is an optimum age for learning > language. A child can learn several languages at once, relatively easily, > during this time, but later on, new languages get progressively more > difficult. This strongly suggests that there is a "language learning" > stage in brain development. I agree about the "learning stage". However, I was talking about something different. First, he grammar and structure of the language is as much part of the language as the rest of it. In fact, the grammar and structure _is_ the language, because the vocabulary by itself is nothing more than synonims to the words of the same meaning in another language, and can be easily adopted (i.e. "computer", or "supermarket"). Structure is what makes the difference. I'm not sure what you mean by "hotwired", but what Stephenson implies is that language (he does elaborate on which part of it, probably because he apparently does not know what the Hell he is talking about) is like a microprocessor that is programmed only once. Like, one cannot take a Pentium-100 out of their computer and change it to something else. Once it's made, it's made. If we use Stephenson's own analogy -- the Programmable Read-Only Memory -- once you blow the fuses in the "half-baked" original module in order to make, say, a half-adder out of it, you cannot "re-program" it to do something else. The same as if you buy a LeAnn Rhimes CD in Target, you cannot make it play Beatles. Now, if the human brain (or that part of it responsible for the language-learning) were the same as a half-baked PROM, the language (one and only) could be "programmed" into it only once. Because once the fuses are blown to create a certain electrical path, that cannot be "undone". Neal Stepehenson builds his whole dim-witted theory on this idea. Apparently he has never heard of people who can learn a second language (at a very adult stage, too, sometimes after they are 40) and speak it better than their first language. Or people that forget the language they have spoken for 20-30 years altogether. According to Stephenson, this would be just as impossible as recording something on a regular, play-only CD. Which proves that besides being a sexist jerk, he is also an idiot. It's true that the younger the person is, the easier it's to learn a new language for them. At least, that's what is commonly believed. It might be true, or it might be the same kind of self-fulfilling myth as the former notion that "women have less abilities to learn math". My great aunt, who taught English in college, started learning it at the age of 18 (she had German in high school) in 1940's Soviet Union, which meant that she never had a chance even to hear a native English speaker, let alone visit an English-speaking country. When she finally got to go to England in 1956, they told her that she had a better English (including the pronouncation) than British themselves. What I am saying -- yes, it's easier to learn a language when you are young. It's easier to learn everything when you are a kid. But this does not mean that once you learn one language, you brain cannot be re-programmed to operate in another one, so one would need some kind of virus to override that restriction, as this book is so pathetically trying to prove. By the way, apart from all the other shit presented in Snow Crash, the very idea of "linear thinking" presented as the supreme remedy from the horrors virus-induced chaos -- in language, religion, and computer programming at once -- this "linear" concept is way out of date even in the computer field. Everyone is transferring to object-oriented programming now, which instead of the "linear" scheme uses the spiral, iterating process. The "coil" so much hated by the author of the Snow Crash. The one he attributes to the evil influence of the female Goddess and her "cult prostitutes". The one that his heroes were so busy fighting. In other words, even without considering all the psycho-philosophical crap, the very "cyber" aspect of Snow Crash is as novel as steam engine. With this kind of perspective, Neal Stephenson should retire and grow vegetables. Or open a museum of linear programming. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Snow Crash -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Marina wrote: >>I'm not sure what you mean by "hotwired", but what Stephenson implies is that language (he does elaborate on which part of it, probably because he apparently does not know what the Hell he is talking about) is like a microprocessor that is programmed only once. Now, if the human brain (or that part of it responsible for the language-learning) were the same as a half-baked PROM, the language (one and only) could be "programmed" into it only once. Because once the fuses are blown to create a certain electrical path, that cannot be "undone". It's been years since I read SNOW CRASH, but I know that Stephenson didn't make up that idea. I believe it's still a fairly hotly debated topic among those who study that sort of thing, but the basic idea is that the grammar of the specific language (or languages) that a child learns affects the way the child's brain develops. The theory doesn't say that the child can never learn another language later in life, just that the initial picking up of language by small children affects their cognitive development and the actual physical architecture of their brains. There's a fairly easy to understand book called "The Language Instinct/How the Mind Creates Language" by a guy called Stephen Pinker that describes the theory. Or, you can start reading up on Chomsky's theories on deep brain structures and grammar, but that's not something I would wish on anyone! And in general, my problem with the book, which I remember liking very much, was that he seemed to think that the Sumerian language had some sort of way of programming the brain because of its agglutinative structure. How did he think the Sumerians ran their civilization, because they therefore had to be prone to falling down and foaming at the mouth if the said the wrong thing? Must have been a pain back when they were inventing writing, the wheel, etc., etc., when people kept having seizures and interuppting the work. But that's only relying on my imperfect memory of the book. (And the stele of Hammurapi, which he mentions in the text, is written in Akkadian, not Sumerian. Trust me, I've translated it) Debra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:57:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanna Goltzman Subject: Frankenstein and Dracula info request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jenn, Ellen Moers's _Literary Women_ has some interesting ideas about _Frankenstein_ in the chapter on the Female Gothic. Jane Donawerth gives a feminist interpretation of Frankenstein in her introduction to _Frankenstein's Daughters: Women Writing Science Fiction_. And, if I remember correctly, Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar's _The Madwoman in the Attic_ has a chapter on Frankenstein. Hope this helps. Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:53:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BEING AN EVIL OVERLORD In-Reply-To: <004501bde60c$a27ae140$6b4b2599@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Poor guy. He obviously have so little life that his main and only amusement are the cheap macho fantasy novels. And even those have apparently made him sick with their predicability to the extent that he tries to parody them. Which turns out just as lame as the subject being made fun of. At least that's what it looks like to me. I don't think we should be worried, though. People like this never raise above a junior clerk (no offence to junior clerks intended). Marina On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > This was obviously written by a non-feminist man. Should aspiring evil > overlords gain this information, it could abolish adventure novels. Keep it > a secret from the power hungry. > > Joyce > > > > >BEING AN EVIL OVERLORD > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >This list is Copyright 1996 by Peter Anspach > >(anspach@aftermath.math.uoknor.edu) > >If you enjoy it, feel free to pass it along or post it > >anywhere, provided that (1) it is not altered in any way, > >and (2) this copyright notice is attached. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Being an Evil Overlord seems to be a good career choice. It pays well, > there > >are all sorts of perks and you can set your own hours. However,every Evil > >Overlord I've read about in books or seen in movies invariably gets > overthrown > >and destroyed in the end. I've noticed that no matter whether they are > >barbarian lords, deranged wizards, mad scientists or alien invaders, they > >always seem to make the same basic mistakes every single time. Therefore, > if I > >ever happen to become an Evil Overlord... > > > > > > 1. My legions of terror will have helmets with clear Plexiglas visors, not > >face-concealing ones. > > > > 2. My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through. > > > > 3. My noble half-brother whose throne I usurped will be killed, not kept > >anonymously imprisoned in a forgotten cell of my dungeon. > > > > 4. Shooting is not too good for my enemies. > > > > 5. The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the > >Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of > >Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. > > > > 6. I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them. > > > > 7. When the rebel leader challenges me to fight one-on-one and asks, "Or > are > >you afraid without your armies to back you up?" My reply will be, "No, just > >sensible." > > > > 8. When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, > >will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No" and shoot > >him. > > > > 9. After I kidnap the beautiful princess, we will be married immediately > in a > >quiet civil ceremony, not a lavish spectacle in three weeks' time during > which > >the final phase of my plan will be carried out. > > > >10. I will not include a self-destruct mechanism unless absolutely > necessary. > >If it is necessary, it will not be a large red button labeled "Danger: Do > Not > >Push." The big red button marked "Do Not Push" will instead trigger a > spray of > >bullets on anyone stupid enough to disregard it. Similarly, the ON/OFF > switch > >will not clearly be labeled as such. > > > >11. I will not order my trusted lieutenant to kill the infant who is > destined > >to overthrow me -- I'll do it myself. > > > >12. I will not interrogate my enemies in the inner sanctum -- a small hotel > >well outside my borders will work just as well. > > > >13. I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need to > prove > >it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my weaker enemies > alive > >to show they pose no threat. > > > >14. I will not waste time making my enemy's death look like an accident -- > I'm > >not accountable to anyone and my other enemies wouldn't believe it. > > > >15. I will make it clear that I do know the meaning of the word "mercy"; I > >simply choose not show them any. > > > >16. One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in > my > >plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation. > > > >17. All slain enemies will be cremated, or at least have several rounds of > >ammunition emptied into them, not left for dead at the bottom of the cliff. > >The announcement of their deaths, as well as any accompanying celebration, > will > >be deferred until after the aforementioned disposal. > > > >18. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as members > of > >my organization, nor will they be required to wear military boots or adhere > to > >any other dress codes. > > > >19. The hero is not entitled to a last kiss, a last cigarette, or any other > >form of last request. > > > >20. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that > >such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the > >counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation. > > > >21. I will design all doomsday machines myself. If I must hire a mad > scientist > >to assist me, I will make sure that he is sufficiently twisted to never > regret > >his evil ways and seek to undo the damage he's caused. > > > >22. I will never utter the sentence "But before I kill you, > >there's just one thing I want to know." > > > >23. When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally > >listen to their advice. > > > >24. I will not have a son. Although his laughably under-planned attempt to > >usurp power would easily fail, it would provide a fatal distraction at a > >crucial point in time. > > > >25. I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, > but > >one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father. > > > >26. Despite its proven stress-relieving effect, I will not indulge in > maniacal > >laughter. When so occupied, it's too easy to miss unexpected developments > that > >a more attentive individual could adjust to accordingly. > > > >27. I will hire a talented fashion designer to create original uniforms for > my > >legions of terror, as opposed to some cheap knock-offs that make them look > like > >Nazi stormtroopers, Roman footsoldiers, or savage Mongol hordes. All were > >eventually defeated and I want my troops to have a more positive mind-set. > > > >28. No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will > not > >consume any energy field bigger than my head. > > > >29. I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in > >their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power > >generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless -- my > troops > >will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and rocks. > > > >30. I will maintain a realistic assessment of my strengths and weaknesses. > >Even though this takes some of the fun out of the job, at least I will > never > >utter the line "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!!" (After that, > death is > >usually instantaneous.) > > > >31. No matter how well it would perform, I will never construct any sort of > >machinery which is completely indestructible except for one small and > virtually > >inaccessible vulnerable spot. > > > >32. If I am engaged in a duel to the death with the hero and I am fortunate > >enough to knock the weapon out of his hand, I will graciously allow him to > >retrieve it. This is not from a sense of fair play; rather, he will be so > >startled and confused that I will easily be able to dispatch him. > > > >33. No matter how attractive certain members of the rebellion are, there is > >probably someone just as attractive who is not desperate to kill me. > >Therefore, I will think twice before ordering a prisoner sent to my > bedchamber. > > > >34. I will never build only one of anything important. For the same reason > I > >will always carry at least two fully loaded weapons at all times. > > > >35. If my supreme command center comes under attack, I will immediately > flee to > >safety in my prepared escape pod and direct the defenses from there. I > will > >not wait until the troops break into my inner sanctum to attempt this. > > > >36. My pet monster will be kept in a secure cage from which it cannot > escape > >and into which I could not accidentally stumble. > > > >37. Even though I don't really care, because I plan on living forever, I > will > >hire engineers who are able to build me a fortress sturdy enough that, if I > am > >slain, it won't tumble to the ground for no good structural reason. > > > >38. I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into > >confusion. > > > >39. All bumbling conjurers, clumsy squires, no-talent bards, and cowardly > >thieves in the land will be pre-emptively put to death. My foes will surely > >give up and abandon their quest if they have no source of comic relief. > > > >40. All naive, busty tavern wenches in my realm will be replaced with > surly, > >world-weary waitresses who will provide no unexpected reinforcement and/or > >romantic subplot for the hero or his sidekick. > > > >41. Any and all magic and/or technology that can miraculously resurrect a > >secondary character who has given up his/her life through self sacrifice > will > >be outlawed and destroyed. > > > >42. I will not fly into a rage and kill a messenger who brings me bad news > just > >to illustrate how evil I really am. Good messengers are hard to come by. > > > >43. I will see to it that plucky young lads/lasses in strange clothes and > with > >the accent of an outlander shall REGULARLY climb some monument in the main > >square of my capital and denounce me, claim to know the secret of my power, > >rally the masses to rebellion, etc. That way, the citizens will be jaded in > >case the real thing ever comes along. > > > >44. I won't require high-ranking female members of my organization to wear > a > >stainless-steel bustier. Morale is better with a more casual dress-code. > >Similarly, outfits made entirely from black leather will be reserved for > formal > >occasions. > > > >45. I will not employ devious schemes that involve the hero's party getting > >into my inner sanctum before the trap is sprung. > > > >46. I will not turn into a snake. It never helps. > > > >47. I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. > >Now they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X. > > > >48. I will not imprison members of the same party in the same cell block, > let > >alone the same cell. If they are important prisoners, I will keep the only > key > >to the cell door on my person instead of handing out copies to every > >bottom-rung guard in the prison. > > > >49. If my trusted lieutenant tells me my Legions of Terror are losing a > >battle, I will believe him. After all, he's my trusted lieutenant. > > > >50. If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring > anywhere, > >I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead of waiting for > them > >to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards me in my old age. > > > >51. If I absolutely must ride into battle, I will certainly not ride at the > >forefront of my Legions of Terror, nor will I seek out my opposite number > among > >his army. > > > >52. I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable > >superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of > keeping > >it in reserve. > > > >53. Once my power is secure, I will destroy all those pesky time-travel > >devices. > > > >54. I will offer oracles the choice of working exclusively for me or being > >executed. > > > >55. When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, > >ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying ropes > and > >filching keys happens to follow him around. > > > >56. I will maintain a healthy amount of skepticism when I capture the > beautiful > >rebel and she claims she is attracted to my power and good looks and will > >gladly betray her companions if I just let her in on my plans. > > > >57. I will only employ bounty hunters who work for money. Those who work > for > >the pleasure of the hunt tend to do dumb things like even the odds to give > the > >other guy a sporting chance. > > > >58. I will not rely entirely upon "totally reliable" spells that can be > >neutralized by relatively inconspicuous talisman. > > > >59. I will make sure I have a clear understanding of who is responsible for > >what in my organization. For example, if my general screws up, I will not > draw > >my weapon, point it at him, say "And here is the price for failure," then > >suddenly turn and kill some random underling. > > > >60. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one > man > >possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. > > > >61. If I learn that a callow youth has begun a quest to destroy me, I will > slay > >him while he is still a callow youth instead of waiting for him to mature. > > > >62. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with > >respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not > >immediately come after me for revenge. > > > >63. If I learn the whereabouts of the one artifact that can destroy me, I > will > >not send all my troops out to seize it. Instead, I will send them out to > seize > >something else and quietly put a want ad in the local paper. > > > >64. My main computers will have their own special operating system that > will be > >completely incompatible with standard IBM and Macintosh powerbooks. > > > >65. I will make the main entrance to my fortress standard-sized. While > >elaborate 60-foot high double-doors definitely impress the masses, they are > >hard to close quickly in an emergency. > > > >66. If one of my dungeon guards begins expressing concern over the > conditions > >in the beautiful princess' cell, I will immediately transfer him to a less > >people-oriented position. > > > >67. I will hire a team of board-certified architects and surveyors to > examine > >my castle and inform me of any secret passages and abandoned tunnels that I > >might not know about. > > > >68. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! > >Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say, "Oh well." and kill her. > > > >69. I will not strike a bargain with a demonic being, then attempt to > >double-cross it simply because I feel like being contrary. > > > >70. Finally, to keep my subjects permanently locked in a mindless trance, I > >will provide each of them with free unlimited Internet access. > > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:00:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG holiday In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You might be right. At the same time, people with no families and/or away from their homes (especially if they are stuck in evil backwater communities) are going to be particularly bored and lonely during the damn holidays. Why take away one of their chief sources of amusement? Sounds pathetic, I know. But that's how the life can be. D'you know that Christmas is the peak time for suicides? Marina On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > I like Jennifer's proposal about taking December off. I know it is a > particularly busy time for me, for retail, and people may find it a busy > holiday time as well. > > > Maryelizabeth > Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 > 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 > San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX > http://www.mystgalaxy.com > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: stereotyping In-Reply-To: <199809221423.JAA11153@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Robin Reid wrote: > Oversimplification and overgeneralization is at the heart of stereotyping > which is at the heart of making whole groups the "OTher," that is, removing > from the category of "human." This is true of all humans: most of the > names American Indian tribes had for themselves meant "the People," with > everybody else being "outside," or "other." Humans probably need the > ability they have to generalize: if you had to stop and 'learn' about > everything on a case by case basis, you'd soon be dead. Isn't that how it works for autistic people? I've read that their main problem is that they cannot make generalizations. So that they cannot even comprehend that other people are also alive -- for them, they are just moving talking objects, like trees with legs. They cannot derive the rules from observations, therefore they cannot guess, and have to literally _learn_ everything they know. I read this somewhere. Anyone knows more about it? I wonder if it was ever explored as an alternative type of consciousness, in sf or elsewhere. Maybe it's not an illness or birth defect as much as something else. Just a thought. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:05:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sanders Subject: Ursula K. Le Guin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends, I normally like to lurk for a while after I have joined a listserv, to see what has been discussed already and so forth, but in this case I have to make my first posting the same day I join. I will be writing the entry on Ursula K. Le Guin for an upcoming encyclopedia of popular culture. I have done most of the research already and should (with all the guilt that modal implies) begin drafting this weekend, but I wanted to throw out an invitation for more information. Particularly, I would like more insights into Ms. Le Guin's role in popular culture, not just her biographical or critical history. I'm interested in what and whom she has affected, what perceptions she can be credited with influencing or originating, and so forth. Send any ideas you have and let me sort the insightful from the less so. . .don't worry that you might be pointing out something too obvious. Also, I imagine that this would be relevant to the listserv, so you might consider just sending your ideas to the listserv unless you feel an absolute need for privacy. If so, write to me at jcsand1@pop.uky.edu . Thanks in advance. Joe Sutliff Sanders ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:16:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sanders Subject: Re: BEING AN EVIL OVERLORD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" >> >50. If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring >> anywhere, >> >I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead of waiting for >> them >> >to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards me in my old age. Incidentally, this is a concept that George R.R. Martin's recent A Game of Thrones (which is the source of the insightful and feminist novella "Blood of the Dragon") deals with. The new king is only able to think in terms of battle, and not at all in terms of being merciful or just in areas where the old king went wrong. Therefore, the new king, who is otherwise an attractive character to some degree, orders that the children of the old king be destroyed. The daughter finds this out and, though she is a wonderful human being, decides to raise an army and attack him first. Violence breeds violence, and the overlord invites his doom no matter what he does. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:35:01 +0100 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Re: BDG holiday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marina wrote: > > You might be right. At the same time, people with no families and/or away > from their homes (especially if they are stuck in evil backwater > communities) are going to be particularly bored and lonely during the damn > holidays. Why take away one of their chief sources of amusement? > > Sounds pathetic, I know. But that's how the life can be. D'you know that > Christmas is the peak time for suicides? > > Marina I've been so bored during holidays in the past, that I've actually volunteered to work! Well, maybe the free meal and the double time pay *might* have influenced me. :-) For reasons I'm not sure of, Spring is actually the peak time for suicides ( at least here in New England). Christmas and Thanksgiving are very big for alcohol abuse. On a SF note I just purchased BROWN GIRL IN A RING by Nalo Hopkison and TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG by Connie Willis. Anyone else read either of these? I'm up for something light & entertaining right now. Terri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:53:09 -0700 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: Ursula K. Le Guin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Once again I feel this is something WisCon should be in on. Any representatives present? Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:08:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 20 Sep 1998 to 21 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:05 AM 9/22/98, Automatic digest processor wrote >Furthermore, the novel takes as given, that men and women are >inherently different (not a viewpoint I share). Men are aggressive, >but energetic and innovative while women are caring, caring, and then >caring, but conservative (as opposite to innovative). Accordingly, >the novel ends on the note that men should be allowed more influence >(5 men in a council of 26) so that the society can profit from their >inherent properties but not because of any idea of equal rights. >Petra This is the problem with essentialist feminism (or masculinism, for that matter), and in my opinion it is a trap: your story ends up being about what rights men should have if they are "simply" human beings, and what rights if they are by nature aggressive etc., instead of addressing the problem, which is making sure that women are not deprived of *their* human rights as we have been deprived in most cultures throughout most of history. It's a way of shifting the focus back to men (of course), and I hate to see authors who want to take on feminist questions decoyed into it. The only problem about men and their rights in a feminist Utopia would be the men's own problems of figuring out how to behave like acceptable human beings around an in-place structure of assertion of and safeguards for the full rights of women. And that is not women's problem to work out, although like all men's problems it is easily and customarily foisted off on us as *if* if were ours. I have a suspicion that many authors operate in this area out of a secret conviction that only men's problems make real, compelling fictional conflict ie are "real". Knowing that Utopias are famously difficult to write anyway because of their inherent lack of conflict (since Utopia is taken to be peaceful), the author siezes upon the problem of men fitting into a women's Utopia as the Big Conflict that will make the book "go" -- as if women have no powerful conflicts among themselves, or simply as human beings trying to live well in the world. One of the most exciting explorations feminist SF can make, I think, is into the territory of women's real stories and real conflicts, apart from the macho crap our cultures tend to profer as the only "real", "good", significant -- and readable -- stories. *Does* Utopia have to mean "conflict-free"? Has it always meant that? Suzy Charnas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:08:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 20 Sep 1998 to 21 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:05 AM 9/22/98, Automatic digest processor wrote: >I remember long ago we mentioned Frankenstein as a fem. sf book... That >and Dracula are now topics of discussion in my Romantic and Victorian Lit >class. Could anyone point me to some good reference books / websites that >discuss the feminist aspects, or discussion of Mary Shelly's background, or >the treatment of women in these books? The people in my class need some >shaking up from their patriarchial views; I'm just the person to do it for >them. Jenn, I hope you've got a copy of Anne Williams' ART OF DARKNESS, U. of Chicago Press, 1995, for your own use? A wonderful exploration of the ideas (and literary practice) of "Romantic" and "Gothic", with of course some material on both your texts. Highly recommended. Suzy Charnas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:53:22 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: Thea Beckman: Children of Mother Earth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-09-21 10:15:55 EDT, you write: << Accordingly, the novel ends on the note that men should be allowed more influence (5 men in a council of 26) so that the society can profit from their inherent properties but not because of any idea of equal rights. >> Replace the word "men" with "women" and it sounds like our current society. I've not read the book, but maybe this was the point being made--that equality doesn't mean only allowing a few to represent the "inherent" qualities of the whole race, but having a proportionate number to the population and accepting the differences that are inherent in all of us. Just my 2 cents. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:26:25 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: Conflict-Free Utopias In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, SMCharnas wrote: > *Does* Utopia have to mean "conflict-free"? Has it always meant that? > Suzy Charnas I hope I am not responding too literally to a rhetorical question. One of the earliest Utopias, that of Sir Thomas More, although conceived by a man, is shown as conflict-free. But More was playing on the idea of Utopia as, in Greek, both eu-topia (the good/beautiful place) and ou-topia (no place), since the English letter "U" can represent both the Greek prefixes. So, I think was Austin Tappan Wright in _Islandia_. ************************************************************** Dr Patricia Monk patmonk@is.dal.ca Department of English Dalhousie University HALIFAX Nova Scotia B3H 2S3 ignorance is curable * stupidity is forever ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:53:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Snow Crash In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:59 PM 9/22/98 -0500, Marina replied: >On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Neil Rest wrote: > >> It's not "language" which is suspected of being hard-wired, so much as >> grammar and structure of language. All human languages turn out to have a >> lot in common, and no matter how different the languages, children learn >> them the same, incredibly fast, way. (A child learns approximately one new >> word per hour from the age of two to the age of six, for instance!) >> Similarly, it is well known that there is an optimum age for learning >> language. A child can learn several languages at once, relatively easily, >> during this time, but later on, new languages get progressively more >> difficult. This strongly suggests that there is a "language learning" >> stage in brain development. (I was talking about language, not so much about _Snowcrash_. More particularly, I was talking about _language_, not about _a_ language.) >I agree about the "learning stage". However, I was talking about >something different. > >First, he grammar and structure of the language is as much part of the >language as the rest of it. In fact, the grammar and structure _is_ the >language, because the vocabulary by itself is nothing more than synonims >to the words of the same meaning in another language, and can be easily >adopted (i.e. "computer", or "supermarket"). Structure is what makes the >difference. On one hand, deep structural similarities have been found between all human languages. Children all over the world learn how to talk the same way, even the children of deaf people who learn sign language. On the other hand, I disagree that languages consist of catalogs of synonyms. World views are coded into languages. >I'm not sure what you mean by "hotwired", but what Stephenson implies is >that language (he does elaborate on which part of it, probably because he >apparently does not know what the Hell he is talking about) is like a >microprocessor that is programmed only once. Like, one cannot take a >Pentium-100 out of their computer and change it to something else. Once >it's made, it's made. If we use Stephenson's own analogy -- the >Programmable Read-Only Memory -- once you blow the fuses in the >"half-baked" original module in order to make, say, a half-adder out of >it, you cannot "re-program" it to do something else. The same as if you >buy a LeAnn Rhimes CD in Target, you cannot make it play Beatles. That CD player can play any CD -- which was originally encoded in the standard coding used by CD players. Similarly, a human brain can learn any language about equally easily -- if it's a human language. >Now, if the human brain (or that part of it responsible for the >language-learning) were the same as a half-baked PROM, the language (one >and only) could be "programmed" into it only once. Because once the fuses >are blown to create a certain electrical path, that cannot be "undone". Go a level further. It isn't one particular language, it is the underlying structure of human language. >It's true that the younger the person is, the easier it's to learn a new >language for them. At least, that's what is commonly believed. It might >be true, or it might be the same kind of self-fulfilling myth as the >former notion that "women have less abilities to learn math". Some people are better at languages and some are worse. Some lose the ability to learn languages easily more rapidly than others. The fact is, though, that language learning ability peaks in childhood during the period when most children are learning language. There is consistent record of children who don't have the opportunity to learn language never catching up. >What I am saying -- yes, it's easier to learn a language when you are >young. Yes, exactly. > But this does >not mean that once you learn one language, you brain cannot be >re-programmed to operate in another one, so one would need some kind of >virus to override that restriction, as this book is so pathetically trying >to prove. Personally, I'd compare it more to additional programming than to reprogramming, but, again: I'm talking about language, not critiquing _Snowcrash_ (which obviously annoyed you a lot!). Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:34:09 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Snow Crash Content-Type: text/plain >Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:59:57 -0500 >From: Marina >Subject: Re: Snow Crash [snip] >In other words, even without considering all the psycho-philosophical >crap, the very "cyber" aspect of Snow Crash is as novel as steam engine. >With this kind of perspective, Neal Stephenson should retire and grow >vegetables. Or open a museum of linear programming. >Marina >From my experience, the infodump about the Sumerian language virus is everybody's least favorite part of the book. I thought it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, anyway, and not a plausible theory of language or of Sumerian history. SF is full of crazy ideas and secret histories, isn't it? Besides, in the current absence of a definitive theory of how humans develop language, Stephenson has license to write whatever he wants. Has anyone read _True Names_ by Vinge? That's supposedly the most computer-authentic of all the cyberpunk books, since Vinge is himself a professor of computer science someplace. It's a pretty cool book, too. Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:47:00 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 21 Sep 1998 to 22 Sep 1998 Content-Type: text/plain SMCharnas sez: > This is the problem with essentialist feminism (or masculinism, for that >matter), and in my opinion it is a trap: your story ends up being about >what rights men should have if they are "simply" human beings, and what >rights if they are by nature aggressive etc., instead of addressing the >problem, which is making sure that women are not deprived of *their* >human rights as we have been deprived in most cultures throughout most >of history. It's a way of shifting the focus back to men (of course), >and I hate to see >authors who want to take on feminist questions decoyed into it. > >The only problem about men and their rights in a feminist Utopia would >be the men's own problems of figuring out how to behave like acceptable >human beings around an in-place structure of assertion of and safeguards forthe >full rights of women. And that is not women's problem to work out, >although >like all men's problems it is easily and customarily foisted off on us >as *if* if were ours. OK, but it *is* an issue for the author who wants to write about a feminist utopia which contains both men and women. My friend, feminist SF writer Sherry Coldsmith, once said something to the effect that it's a lot easier to postulate a good world for women if you get rid of all the men first. It's a different issue if you are taking men raised in a patriarchal system or men raised from birth in a more equitable system, where aggression and dominance weren't so overdetermined by culture and upbringing. Danny (who has a small son, and worries about this stuff) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:42:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Essentialism & "The Matter of Seggri" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzy McKee Charnas wrote: >This is the problem with essentialist feminism (or masculinism, for >that matter), and in my opinion it is a trap: your story ends up being >about what rights men should have if they are "simply" human beings, >and what rights if they are by nature aggressive etc., instead of >addressing the problem, which is making sure that women are not >deprived of *their* human rights as we have been deprived in most >cultures throughout most of history. It's a way of shifting the focus >back to men (of course), and I hate to see authors who want to take on >feminist questions decoyed into it. > >The only problem about men and their rights in a feminist Utopia would >be the men's own problems of figuring out how to behave like acceptable >human beings around an in-place structure of assertion of and >safeguards for the full rights of women. And that is not women's >problem to work out, although like all men's problems it is easily and >customarily foisted off on us as *if* it were ours. Interesting. This issue came up when we were discussing Nicola Griffith's *Ammonite*. Some readers couldn't get over the fact that she didn't "deal" with the question of how traumatic it would be for these women to be without men. Quite a double standard, as in much science fiction there are men living without women with little mention of the fact beyond, "I can't wait for shore leave... where I get to bone some prostitute." It does seem to be assumed that whatever utopia is for women, it's "caring", as Petra said of *Childen of Mother Earth*. But what if it isn't? What if women could focus on themselves for a change? There was a very appropriate quote in Russ' *What Are We Fighting For?*, but alas my copy is at home. As an interesting middle ground, what does everyone think of Le Guin's "The Matter of Seggri"? The women of that world do seem quite focussed on themselves, but it's hard to tell if Le Guin approves or disapproves. Their lack of concern for the outnumbered men isn't admirable, but the conditions in the male-only enclaves are not their fault. As the story ends, positive change is occurring, but it is assumed that the men carry the bulk of the responsibility for changing their own lot, though the women grant them access to some of their resources, like university schooling. The story centers on the man/woman problem, but the message does not seem essentialist to me. Thoughts, anyone? -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Elliott Smith -- Either/Or "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:03:32 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: BROWN GIRL IN THE RING/TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Terri: TSNOTD is the lighter of the two. It's the kind of book which seldom made me laugh out loud, but which I often found myself smiling as I read. BGITR has a somewhat darker, grittier texture. Both are enjoyable reads, IMO. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:06:50 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Winter holidays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina: I had heard the suicide statistic before. As the busiest time for the labor ward is September, perhaps it's nature's way of seeking balance? (not meant seriously) BTW, perhaps you could be more selective in choosing to repost the entire texts of messages you reply to? It would reduce the volume of many messages for the list members. Thanks, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:05:54 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: how to be an evil overlord MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning the instructions on how to properly be an "evil overlord", Joyce said: << This was obviously written by a non-feminist man. Should aspiring evil overlords gain this information, it could abolish adventure novels. Keep it a secret from the power hungry.>> and Marina said: << Poor guy. He obviously have so little life that his main and only amusement are the cheap macho fantasy novels. And even those have apparently made him sick with their predicability to the extent that he tries to parody them. Which turns out just as lame as the subject being made fun of. At least that's what it looks like to me. I don't think we should be worried, though. People like this never raise above a junior clerk (no offence to junior clerks intended).>> I say: Hmmm. Well, I thought it was funny enough to print out and keep -- not to mention having a few pretty sharp things to say about the stereotypical pulp villain. I read the thing up and down and couldn't find any evidence that the guy who wrote it is "obviously a non-feminist man" -- just maybe someone who is tired of seeing the same tired cliches in science-fiction/fantasy. I rather doubt this guy intends to actually _become_ an "evil overlord," or meant to have his tongue-in-cheek critique taken seriously as some sort of guide to life. In short, this was satire. Lilith -- "That's 'Dr. Evil'; I didn't go to evil school for six years just to be called 'Mister.'" -- from Austin Powers -- Man of Mystery ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:15:43 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: BDG announcements In-Reply-To: <19980921191017043.AAA192@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 21/09/98 20:00:51 BST when somebody, hang on, I had the name here somewhere, ah, yes, Jennifer Krauel , (hey, that's you, isn't it?) wrote: > Another thing to consider is taking a holiday break. Our last currently > scheduled discussion is for December. Do we want to take off the next > month, January? That means no required reading during December; and > discussion resumes in February. Bah, humbug. It's the dreaded "C" word looming up again, isn't it. I vote we cancel December, have a holiday in January and resume in February. By then, with luck, I'll have managed to actually read something and can participate in the discussions. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org Get forgiveness now -- tomorrow you may no longer feel guilty. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:31:30 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Thea Beckman: Children of Mother Earth In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 22 Sep 98 Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft responded to a message from me: > << Accordingly, > the novel ends on the note that men should be allowed more > influence (5 men in a council of 26) so that the society can profit > from their inherent properties but not because of any idea of equal > rights. >> > > Replace the word "men" with "women" and it sounds like our current > society. I've not read the book, but maybe this was the point being > made--that equality doesn't mean only allowing a few to represent > the "inherent" qualities of the whole race, but having a > proportionate number to the population and accepting the differences > that are inherent in all of us. Another poster said the description reminded her of 'Egalia's Daughters' (sorry, I deleted the message too hastily), which goes into the same direction. But I do not agree. Having the advantage of having read the book ;-), I can say that Beckman's novel is not satire but meant as an utopia. Perhaps my quoted sentence is misleading with respect to the book in that equal rights are not an issue in it. The idea is that in a society ruled by women (and men excluded from all power but not mistreated (as they are in 'Egalia's Daughters')) everybody is cared for, the environment is protected and if gunpowder is developed it is only used for fireworks but not for weapons. And the only modification at the end after the conflict with the Teutonians is that women are perhaps a bit too conservative in that they have halted technological advance a bit too much (the Thule society had developed the steam machine 200 years before but had not used it because it is noisy and would pollute the environment), so to counterbalance the conservatism of women a few men are included in the council. My major criticism - besides the essentialism - is that it is not clarified how this idyll is preserved. The men readily accept that they can only do menial work and are cheerful and happy (everybody is cheerful and happy), everybody shares with each other, nobody tries to get rich, the women in power never abuse it, the environment is protected, etc. But what (social) forces ensure that it stays that way? If I compare it to e.g. _The Dispossessed_ that disappointed me. On 22 Sep 98 SMCharnas wrote: > I have a suspicion that many authors operate in this area out of a > secret conviction that only men's problems make real, compelling > fictional conflict ie are "real". Knowing that Utopias are famously > difficult to write anyway because of their inherent lack of conflict > (since Utopia is taken to be peaceful), the author siezes upon the > problem of men fitting into a women's Utopia as the Big Conflict > that will make the book "go" -- as if women have no powerful > conflicts among themselves, or simply as human beings trying to live > well in the world. One of the most exciting explorations feminist > SF can make, I think, is into the territory of women's real stories > and real conflicts, apart from the macho crap our cultures tend to > profer as the only "real", "good", significant -- and readable -- > stories. I think the author did not conceive of the possibility of conflicts between women. Which is perhaps due to the time the book was written (the early eighties). On 23 Sep 98 Janice E. Dawley wrote: > It does seem to be assumed that > whatever utopia is for women, it's "caring", as Petra said of > *Childen of Mother Earth*. But what if it isn't? What if women could > focus on themselves for a change? That's it what I am bothered about. The argument in "Children..." rests on the idea that women should rule because it is good for society, for the environment. It that were not the case then there would be no reason to give women more power. Reminds me of the 'Mothers against Chernobyl/Nuclear power' groups who fight as mothers for their children but not as women for their own protection. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:46:46 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: BDG announcements In-Reply-To: <36092CBF30C.4A9BCATWEASEL@outmail1.cableinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I had thought that it would be better not to discuss a book in January as many do not have access to their computers in early January (at least in my case) and many do not have time to read a book in the busy weeks of December. But after Marina's post it occurred to me that we could discuss a short story instead, perhaps from the 2nd or 3rd week in January. Although in principal possible as a BDG choice, so far hardly any short story was nominated and none voted for. What do BDG interested think about that? Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:56:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG announcements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Re Holiday... December is one of the few time in the year when I can count on reading time. Rats. Anybody else want to go on reading? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:14:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BDG announcements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Since I don't celebrate the 'C' holiday - December isn't that much busier than other months. In fact, since I will have a break from school (but not alas from work) I'll have more time to read and try and get in on the discussions more. I do like the idea of short stories ... hadn't someone nominated a collection in the last go-round ... perhaps we could consider it again. Sheryl > ---------- > From: Petra Mayerhofer[SMTP:mayerhof@USF.UNI-KASSEL.DE] > But after Marina's post > it occurred to me that we could discuss a short story instead, > perhaps from the 2nd or 3rd week in January. Although in principal > possible as a BDG choice, so far hardly any short story was nominated > and none voted for. What do BDG interested think about that? > > Petra > > > > *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:22:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > Re Holiday... > December is one of the few time in the year when I can count on reading time. > Rats. Anybody else want to go on reading? It would be nice to have a book discussion during December. Maybe something light and humorous? Most of the books we have read so far have been fairly intense and some of them have required large blocks of time to read. Several of the books we have read so far have featured scenes of child abuse, sexual abuse and other types of violence. Could we read something cheerful and uplifting for the holiday season? Does lightweight feminist science fiction exist? > Madrone > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:29:08 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think anybody's talking about not DISCUSSING a book in December; we've already voted on that one, and there's a book lined up to talk about in Dec. (can't remember what it is, though). It was suggested that we maybe not discuss anything in January, which would free up December reading some, for some people. Personally, I think something like "Impossible Things" by Connie Willis (a short story collection) would be fun to discuss; I can't remember if any of the stories would really count as "feminist"..definitely light, though (well, some of them) -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Stacey Holbrook [mailto:ausar@NETDOOR.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 11:22 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) > > > On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > > > Re Holiday... > > December is one of the few time in the year when I can > count on reading time. > > Rats. Anybody else want to go on reading? > > It would be nice to have a book discussion during December. Maybe > something light and humorous? Most of the books we have read > so far have > been fairly intense and some of them have required large > blocks of time to > read. Several of the books we have read so far have featured scenes of > child abuse, sexual abuse and other types of violence. Could we read > something cheerful and uplifting for the holiday season? Does > lightweight > feminist science fiction exist? > > > Madrone > > > > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:30:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain A few people had mentioned _To say nothing of the dog_ which was pretty light. I like Willis' _Bellweather_ also - I found it funny and it was quite a bit shorter that TSNotD - sheryl > Could we read > something cheerful and uplifting for the holiday season? Does lightweight > feminist science fiction exist? > > > Madrone > > > > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:32:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG winter break In-Reply-To: <36092CBF30C.4A9BCATWEASEL@outmail1.cableinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I still think it would be a good idea to have a tiny little discussion for those who don't have all those problems with Christmas, for one of the following reasons: a) they don't have a family -- close by or anywhere, so the problems of gift-buying never arises; b) they don't celebrate Christmas at all, because it is not part of their religion and/or culture, or they think the whole idea is stupid; c) they are sick/immobilized or have some other reason why they cannot do much of the scurrying around; d) any combination of the resons above. I think it's kind of discriminatory to assume that everyone on this list are Christian Americans with big happy families who can afford spending a whole month preparing for and cleaning up after one specific event. It's not a big-O type of discrimination, of course, but I can tell you that having nothing to do for a whole damn month except watching cheesy TV shows that only makes you wonder why is it you are not one of those delirious people running around with boxes. Ahy can't we have a discussion for those who are not part of it (because they are Jewish, atheists, physically uncapable of participating in the holiday madness, or simply too broke to buy gifts even for themselves)? Those who are busy can always tune in later. And even if not, just because you cannot participate, does that mean no one else should? Or am I the only one here who does not expect anything for Christmas besides feeling terminally bored? If that's the case, that's fine, go ahead and cancel it. Otherwise, it's simply not fair. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:28:02 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Yvonne Rowse Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A lightish short story? How about 'Fisherman of the Inland Sea' (Another Story), the last short story is the book of that name by LeGuin. The marriages on O fascinate me. It is romanticish though. Or anything from Four Ways To Forgiveness. Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:21:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) Comments: To: Sandy Candioglos In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > I don't think anybody's talking about not DISCUSSING a book in December; > we've already voted on that one, and there's a book lined up to talk about > in Dec. (can't remember what it is, though). It was suggested that we maybe > not discuss anything in January, which would free up December reading some, > for some people. Sorry for the mistake. I still would prefer not to take a break. Sometimes the book I read for the BDG is the only feminist fiction I read in a month (unless you include *Charlotte's Web* which I am currently reading with my daughter). > Personally, I think something like "Impossible Things" by Connie Willis (a > short story collection) would be fun to discuss; I can't remember if any of > the stories would really count as "feminist"..definitely light, though > (well, some of them) A short story collection would a also be a nice change of pace. > -Sandy Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:31:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG winter break In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 23 Sep 98 13:32:54 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Or am I the only one here who does not expect anything for Christmas >besides feeling terminally bored? If that's the case, that's fine, go >ahead and cancel it. Otherwise, it's simply not fair. Many students/faculty have very strictly limited time off and cannot travel or visit family at any other time. I know that many schools close their undergrad dorms for "winter vacation" -- you *have* to go. A lot of these people can't read email during that time, which does extend through the beginning of January. Obviously (I assume this is your view) this makes it even suckier for those who have the time off but nowhere to go, and I'd like to read a book for January even if the group was smaller. I do think, though, that it's worth noting that there are a lot of cultural pressures besides personal observance that could make it hard to get everything done in that time period. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:28:11 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@intel.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) In-Reply-To: <004a01bde71f$fc1244a0$96035cc3@softnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes!! Those marriages are really fascinating; definitely worth a re-read and some discussion! -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Yvonne Rowse [mailto:yvonne@HALLSFARM.SOFTNET.CO.UK] > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 11:28 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) > > > A lightish short story? How about 'Fisherman of the Inland > Sea' (Another > Story), the last short story is the book of that name by LeGuin. The > marriages on O fascinate me. It is romanticish though. > > Or anything from Four Ways To Forgiveness. > > Yvonne > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:41:34 +0000 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: BDG: Change of Pace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 23 Sep 98 , Stacey Holbrook wrote: > we read something cheerful and uplifting for the > holiday season? Does lightweight feminist science fiction exist? > Kim Anitau's (sp?) The Jigsaw Woman is Feminist Fluff of the Goddess variety, but even that is pretty disturbing in places... Clysta Kinstler's The Moon Under Her Feet would make very interesting C time reading, but I am not positive folks would want to class it as Fem SF, although Alternative History would probably fit. I am also very eager to discuss Elizabeth Hand's Waking the Moon, although it is neither light nor upbeat....if you've read it, let me know, I hate to start a discussion not knowing if I'm only beating a drum for myself. And I vote for books in December. People don't have to play in january if they haven't read, and besides, long plane trips (and the correlating time spent stuck in holiday airports) are great for novels... Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:32:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG winter break--not posted Comments: To: Joe Sanders In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980923151340.008ff330@pop.uky.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is my response to Joe's message, who felt I was Christmas-bashing. I'm posting it here in case someone else thinks the same. Joe, I'm afraid you misunderstood me. First of all, I'm not the one who thinks Christmas is stupid. I personally like gifts even if did not get many lately. Nevertheless, there _are_ people (Christian by the way) who think that the big celebration it is made into in US has more to do with materialism and consumption than with faith. I've met some of those people, and they _were_ Christian, so your comment about "other people's religious holidays" does not apply Therefore, none of my message had anything to do with my religious beleifs (which are Catholic, in case you are interested) or "criticising" anyone's holidays. Finally, I don't mind if you post this reply to your message to the whole list (in case someone else decided that I am against Christmas). Actually, I think I'm gonna do it myself, before someone else got upset. Personally, I do celebrate Christmas -- by hanging some glittery stuff in my place and cooking myself some holiday dinner, if I don't feel too lazy. And I love the post-Christmas sale at the mall (if I have any money at that moment). Christmas is fine with me, but it's not something that would make me busy for the whole month, or even a whole day. The main effect it has on my life is that whenever I'm trying to do something during that time, it seems impossibe because all people I know are at vacation, and everything in the whole country is closed down. Marina On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Joe Sanders wrote: > > > At 01:32 PM 9/23/98 -0500, you wrote: > b) they don't celebrate Christmas at all, because. . .they think the whole > idea is stupid; > > > Hm. They think the whole thing is stupid. Well, Christmas is of course > something the majority espouses and is therefore easy to criticize--indeed, > a good idea to criticize--but it's pretty difficult for me to go along with > someone who says someone else's religious holiday is "stupid." > Perhaps you were speaking in the heat of passion, which is why I'm not > posting this. However, please remember that Christmas is a part of a > religion that some of the people on this listserv find great joy in > dedicating their lives to. Please be careful. > > Joe Sutliff Sanders > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:39:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: Frankenstein Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit One book I really liked was Scientific Attitudes in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein by Samuel Holmes Vasbinder UMI Research Press (Studies in Speculative Fiction), 1984 This has contains references to occultism, Alchemy, and Spiritualism. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:52:38 +0000 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: BDG and Christian holidays In-Reply-To: <199809231747.TAA26294@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hannukah's Dec 14. Winter Solstice Dec. 21. Christmas Dec 24 Kwanzaa begins, I believe, Dec 26 I sympathize with the dorm/email problem, and might be convinced by that train of thought, but honestly I resent Christmas Mania in so many ways, for so many reasons, that all attempts to present an argument to postpone or otherwise alter the book discussion in favor of frenzied christian consumerism strike me as attempts at religious and cultural imperialism. This reaction has exploded from a tiny niggling annoyance to a full blown entrenched annoyed reaction over the course of the last ten minutes and 8 posts. understand, as a PhD candidate in religion, I respect all people's religious pursuits, and have in fact begun to build a career on pointing out when any particular religion oversteps its boundaries onto mine. When I have my teacher hat on, I see this as the ultimate teaching moment. When I have my feminist Jewish Wiccan hat on, I just get really deeply angry. And today has been a crazy day, so I'm probably being a lot less nice than I aught to be, but I'm angry and felt it seemed necessary to share that reaction. To restate my earlier post, if you can't play in january, don't. BDG ain't compulsory, and you're not being graded. It would appear that there are enough of us here who want to read in December, and perhaps the voting can somehow be arranged to weigh that in for January's book. Rudy Leon Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:48:35 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: BDG: December, Lighter Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A break in December or January would be fine with me; it has nothing to do with religion, just my workload (not that I have any particular animosity against those with families and traditions that make the holidays a very hectic time). For lighter reading, what about something by Nancy Springer? Fair Peril, Larque on the Wing, or even Apocalypse, if that's still available. Connie Willis's To Say Nothing of the Dog and Bellwether are both excellent suggestions, too. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:20:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: BDG winter break--not posted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have been watching this thread about holidays a little less than other threads, but I agree with you Marina, this particular holiday has several camps of how one handles it when it occurs, there are those who believe in it and thus celebrate it according to their belief system and/or fervor, and there are some who think of it as a nice day off from work and not really go all out to celebrate its significance...I used to see its significance as of the former, but in my search for spirituality, have found that for my self, as an individual, the former side of me that used to go all out and embrace it was not there anymore...and there will always be folks out there who no matter how you put it will find something to point out to you when it was completely misunderstood...sigh It is hard to get across beliefs on paper much less email without someone misunderstanding the intent...whenever I have pointed out something about my belief system that did not confer or complement anothers in the past, I was usually given a brochure or pamphelt to compensate for my lack of "vision" giggle... and to turn this back to feminist scifi...there is always the option for this "break" coming up where perhaps former issues that came up during a discussion could be hashed out here among those interested, while the folks who are on holiday but have no time to read up can jump in when they want and make for a discussion that could not be covered during the initial discussion of an earlier selection??? just a suggestion, I liked the one about short stories as well, you never really see discussion of short stories content as it is... Jo Ann At 03:32 PM 9/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >This is my response to Joe's message, who felt I was Christmas-bashing. >I'm posting it here in case someone else thinks the same. > > >Joe, I'm afraid you misunderstood me. > >First of all, I'm not the one who thinks Christmas is stupid. I >personally like gifts even if did not get many lately. > >Nevertheless, there _are_ people (Christian by the way) who think that the >big celebration it is made into in US has more to do with materialism and >consumption than with faith. I've met some of those people, and >they _were_ Christian, so your comment about "other people's religious >holidays" does not apply > >Therefore, none of my message had anything to do with my religious >beleifs (which are Catholic, in case you are interested) or "criticising" >anyone's holidays. > >Finally, I don't mind if you post this reply to your message to the whole >list (in case someone else decided that I am against Christmas). >Actually, I think I'm gonna do it myself, before someone else got upset. > >Personally, I do celebrate Christmas -- by hanging some glittery stuff in >my place and cooking myself some holiday dinner, if I don't feel too >lazy. And I love the post-Christmas sale at the mall (if I have any money >at that moment). Christmas is fine with me, but it's not something that >would make me busy for the whole month, or even a whole day. The main >effect it has on my life is that whenever I'm trying to do something >during that time, it seems impossibe because all people I know are at >vacation, and everything in the whole country is closed down. > >Marina > >On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Joe Sanders wrote: > >> >> >> At 01:32 PM 9/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >> b) they don't celebrate Christmas at all, because. . .they think the whole >> idea is stupid; >> > >> Hm. They think the whole thing is stupid. Well, Christmas is of course >> something the majority espouses and is therefore easy to criticize--indeed, >> a good idea to criticize--but it's pretty difficult for me to go along with >> someone who says someone else's religious holiday is "stupid." >> Perhaps you were speaking in the heat of passion, which is why I'm not >> posting this. However, please remember that Christmas is a part of a >> religion that some of the people on this listserv find great joy in >> dedicating their lives to. Please be careful. >> >> Joe Sutliff Sanders >> > >http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG winter break In-Reply-To: <9809231931.AA02594@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > Many students/faculty have very strictly limited time off and cannot travel or > visit family at any other time. I know that many schools close their undergrad > dorms for "winter vacation" -- you *have* to go. The fun part of it is that they don't really close them. There is always at least one that is open, where all students who decided to stay on-campus (mainly international students) are placed. What _is_ closed is the cafeteria. So while you cannot, under the threat of eviction, cook in your dorm room (for fire safety reasons), you cannot eat in the cafeteria, either. I spent my first winter break in the United States in one of those dorms. I was the only girl in the whole building, with a whole floor all to myself. Besides me, there were about half-dozen guys from Asia in some other part of the building. I spent a whole month there, alone, with no food, and nothing to do. I could not go anywhere to eat, because I did not have a car, and walking around in the terrible Oklahoma wind is not something one would really want to do. Especially considering the fact that I brought almost no warm clothes from home and had no money left to buy them, either. Even the nearest convenience store was about two miles away. Luckily, Norman where I lived back then, is the only city around here with something like public transportation. Eventually, I discovered a bus stop about half-mile away, where I could get on a bus to get to a grocery store or the mall. I spent the whole month in that ghost city of a campus, cold and dreary in its emptiness. Eating only Ramen Noodles -- that 10-cent crap that you can boil into some resemblance of a soup, and canned chili -- the only things I could cook in the hot-pot in my room. Having absolutely no one even to talk to. The only things I could do (since even the library was at a half-hour walk in the freezing cold) was to go to the mall every day (mostly window shopping) and watching TV in the dorm lobby downstairs. That's when I got addicted to MTV, I think. Beavis and Butthead might have been the only thing that prevented me from going crazy. Maybe because their life was even lousier than mine. At least I did not have to go to high school (not that college was any better). That was my first Christmas break here. The ones that followed were somewhat better, but not by much. The second time, I had the heating system in the apartment go down the day before Christmas, and I could not get it fixed for a week, since the school maintenance (it was a university apartment) was off. It was 50 degrees Farenheit inside most of the time. I spent my first Christmas break hungry, the second freezing, and the rest of them staring at the TV set alone, wondering how I am going to come up with the next rent, because since the school offices are closed, my next paycheck would be just a half from usual. I hate all holidays. Holidays and vocations for me (as well as to many other international students) mean mainly being stuck in the middle of a ghost town, with nothing to do, no one to communicate with, nowhere to go, and basically waste one's time instead of at least making money at one's job. I like the Christmas lights, some people make their houses really pretty. I also like the sale, cause it's the only time I can really afford anything in the mall. Other than that, holidays present to me nothing but extensive, prolonged misery. And since the C-time is accompanies by both the terrible cold AND the complete shut-off of everything including the always-opened convenience store, in my humble expereince, it's the most dreary time of the year. It's the time when if anything breaks, you won't get it fixed; if you want to talk to someone, there will be no one around, and even if you try to do something productive, you'll realize that you have no access to computer labs, libraries, public transportation, or anything else. Maybe there are people who are busy in December, but I'm definitely not one of them. I also have a feeling that it's not a student holiday in general. The finals week is more fun than that. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:09:01 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG winter break Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/23/98 3:33:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << I spent my first winter break in the United States in one of those dorms. >> Jesus. This is even worse if you happen to know that Top Ramen looks exactly like fish tapeworms. It's cheap, and it's hot, but I swear I see it moving. Marina...YOU HAVE GOT to write a novel. By the way...where the heck are you now? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:48:55 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: BDG winter break Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just thought I'd weigh in on this one, too. I, personally, am very busy during December. I am one of those who goes all out during the holidays. I love to decorate (two trees and stuff everywhere) and bake (100's of dozens of cookies) and shop during the holiday season. (Especially the latter since I worked retail for 15 years and never could shop during those years :-)) I especially can relate to Mary Elizabeth's statement that it is a busy time for her; however, when I am caught up in the middle of all the chaos that surrounds the holidays, taking some time for myself by reading a book helps me relax. (Usually in the evening after the kids are in bed.) I have only been on this list for a couple of months, but already have read three books I wouldn't have ever even known about because it's just too hard to take a 2 1/2 year old into a bookstore and expect to be able to actually find something new to read. I would prefer to have the book discussions continue even if I find myself too busy to participate--I can always grab the books to read later. Those who don't wish to participate, or who don't have the time, can choose to lurk for a while. And those who want to participate, and have the time to do so, can go ahead with the discussions. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:14:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Stacey Holbrook wrote: > It would be nice to have a book discussion during December. Maybe > something light and humorous? One suggestions I haven't seen yet, fits into both the short story and the light and humourous categories. _Chicks in Chainmail_ edited by Esthner Friesner (or the sequel _Did You Say Chicks?!?_). Certainly not highbrow literature, but they're amusing, feminist, fantasy stories. Anne Anne Vespry ******* http://www.vex.net/~maverick After Stonewall Bookshop ***** never forget avespry(at) *** only dead fish ollisdotuottawadotca * swim WITH the stream ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:53:37 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: promo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends, Back, for a moment, to the earlier topic of promoting our own work: I'm looking for web and other addresses for Women's Studies Programs and individual academics who might agree that on the basis of concluding the Holdfast books at long last I am worth importing to their schools to lecture, participate in classes, address study groups, etc. I found a list of 63 Women's Studies Departments on Yahoo for starters, but I am sure it is incomplete and most entries give limited indications of who's who within these departments and who's got an SF/Fantasy/Utopian or other applicable interest or specialty. Have any of you got suggestions of particular departments or people I might approach? I'm putting together an unofficial, self-made book-tour, having just been approached myself by a teacher in Arizona who read about the upcoming publication (May) of the final volume, THE CONQUEROR'S CHILD and who has offered to scare up some bucks to bring me there. All suggestions welcome and appreciated! Thanks all. Suzy Charnas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 02:31:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: BDG announcements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Madrone wrote: <> Yes please, end of December thru January is my slow time. Mary-Ellen Crystal Mist Glass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:10:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 22 Sep 1998 to 23 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:17 AM 9/24/98, Automatic digest processor wrote: > It's a different issue if you are taking men raised in a >patriarchal system or men raised from birth in a more equitable >system, where aggression and dominance weren't so overdetermined >by culture and upbringing. > >Danny (who has a small son, and worries about this stuff) I worry too. I have two small grandchildren, a boy and a girl, and how (or if) we work out something better than what we've been handed is crucial to both of them. Petra wrote: >That's it what I am bothered about. The argument in "Children..." >rests on the idea that women should rule because it is good for >society, for the environment. It that were not the case then there >would be no reason to give women more power. Somewhere Joanna Russ wrote that it was time to make the switch for no other reason than "it's our turn." I always liked that. It's our turn. Suzy Charnas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 02:41:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anne suggested: <<_Chicks in Chainmail_ edited by Esthner Friesner (or the sequel _Did You Say Chicks?!?_).>> These sound like great fun. I did think we were talking more about something to discuss in Jan., because I think there is something scheduled for Dec? Can we come to a decision on this soon? If we aren't going to do these in Jan., I'm going to hit up interlibrary loan ASAP. I am happily salivating at the thought of all the great books I hear about on this list. Mary-Ellen Crystal Mist Glass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sanders Subject: Re: promo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ms. Charnas, We have a Women's Studies Program here that everyone should know about. Its address: Womens' Studies Program Patterson Office Tower 1215 University of Kentucky Lexington, KY 40506 Joe Sutliff Sanders At 11:53 PM 9/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >Friends, >I'm looking >for web and other addresses for Women's Studies Programs and individual >academics who might agree that on the basis of concluding the Holdfast books >at long last I am worth importing to their schools to lecture, participate in >classes, address study groups, etc. > >I found a list of 63 Women's Studies Departments on Yahoo for starters, but >I am sure it is incomplete and most entries give limited indications of >who's who within these departments and who's got an SF/Fantasy/Utopian >or other applicable interest or specialty. Have any of >you got suggestions of particular departments or people I might approach? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanna Goltzman Subject: Le Guin and marriage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yvonne and Sandy, If you liked reading about the marriages in the last short story of Le Guin's _Fisherman of the Inland Sea_, you'll really enjoy her "Mountain Ways" where she focuses more on the marriages. It's a fascinating story that won the Tiptree in 1997. I found it in _Asimov's Science Fiction_ Volume 20 #8 August 1996, but it must have been reprinted elsewhere. Really a beautiful and interesting story. Enjoy! Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sanders Subject: Re: Le Guin and marriage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:01 AM 9/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Yvonne and Sandy, > you'll really enjoy her "Mountain >Ways" where she focuses more on the marriages. It's a fascinating story that >won the Tiptree in 1997. I found it in _Asimov's Science Fiction_ Volume 20 >#8 August 1996, but it must have been reprinted elsewhere. Is that the one that was reprinted in the last Nebula Awards Collection that Pamela Sargent edited? Joe Sutliff Sanders ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:37:56 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could we read >something cheerful and uplifting for the holiday season? Does lightweight >feminist science fiction exist? > >Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) Does Honor Harrington count? They've just reached the UK, but they may be 'old hat' in the US already. You certainly can't call them 'serious reading'. :) Monica ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:50:06 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, M.J.Norman wrote: > Could we read > >something cheerful and uplifting for the holiday season? Does lightweight > >feminist science fiction exist? > Does Honor Harrington count? They've just reached the UK, but they > may be 'old hat' in the US already. You certainly can't call them 'serious > reading'. :) I have enjoyed the Honor Harrington stories immensely. But just because we have a woman naval commander doesn't necessarily make them feminist, nor does conflict with fundamentalist misogynists (in the second volume, I think) actually put forward a feminist alternative. Sometimes it looks as if the only way to get on in Honor's world is to became more male than the males. And (second point) blow things up quicker and better. "Cheerful and uplifting": well, uplifting, in the sense that they are exciting and gripping adventures, inwhich the hera normally triumphs. But "cheerful"? Harrington normally ends up guilt-ridden at the amount of things blown up and at the number of corpses at the end of each episode; and the number of corpses is sometimes _phenomenal_! Even Honor Harrington doesn't always find that particularly cheerful! Rather than "cheerful, uplifting and feminist", perhaps "harrowing, full of guilty pleasures, and woman-centred" would be more accurate... But, yes, they are fun! Particularly for old Hornblower fans, if there are any reading this. Edward James. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:50:20 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: BDG December reading for Jan discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1) I very much like the suggestion of CHICKS IN CHAINMAIL or another collection of short works. 2) IIRC, the original post did not specifically mention Christmas. The focus on Christmas was from someone's response to the post. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:27:02 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG December reading for Jan discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/24/98 8:51:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mystgalaxy@AX.COM writes: << I very much like the suggestion of CHICKS IN CHAINMAIL >> I like the sounds of this one! There is also a collection "Women of Wonder: the Classic Years", edited by Pamela Sargent that has short stories in SF written by women from the 1940'sto the 1970's. The downside is that, even as a paperback, it is about $15.00. There is a great section in the back with short biographies about the writers. These women in the early years had to be marketable to a primarily male audience, and yet managed to get in some great jabs...such as, women would probably get along fine with aliens because we spend our whole lives living with men...the ultimate aliens! FYI Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:53:12 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 24-09-1998 17:37, M.J.Norman said: >You certainly can't call them 'serious >reading'. :) Or "feminist', from what I've seen... (only the first volume, admittedly: this kind of blow 'em ups bore me to tears, and unfortunately, I'm translating a particularly pernicious example right now. And yes, there is a *dispassion* in this kind of literature that strikes me as typically macho, even when there are competent women officers in the cast). Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:58:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tessa Vaughn Subject: Re: Snow Crash In-Reply-To: <86256687.0055D016.00@fluoroware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Susan Walto wrote: > I just got caught up on over a week's worth of digest. (Please, please > snip.) I read Snow Crash many years ago and remember it being very funny. > I also remember that it's not feminist in the least. I usually recommend > it to male science fiction readers. I figure they'll like it. Stephenson > also wrote another book titled "The Diamond Age." I thought that book was > strange. This sounded rather sexist to me! As if there are some books for male science fiction readers and some for women. I thought one of the points of feminism was to blur, if not erase, these sorts of distinctions! Or at least make people aware that these are false constructs that we place on our behaviour, likes and dislikes, etc. I personally enjoyed Snow Crash, although I would agree that it's not the least bit feminist. The Diamond Age would fit that category much more! Tessa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Snow Crash In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Tessa Vaughn wrote: > I usually recommend > > it to male science fiction readers. I figure they'll like it. Stephenson > > also wrote another book titled "The Diamond Age." I thought that book was > > strange. > > > This sounded rather sexist to me! As if there are some books for male > science fiction readers and some for women. When I started reading SC, I thought about recommending it to a male friend, too. Even when the book started get on my nerves big time, I was still aware that he would probably enjoy it. But then I thought -- if I hated this book because it's so sexist, and that guy would not realize that, why enforce that kind of thinking? I don't believe that there are things that are "bad for women, but good for men". Therefore, I think it's my responsibility to assert that something is insulting to women, it should not be OK for men, either. My recommendation of this book would encourage him think the opposite. So I did not give it to him :). Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:55:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Snow Crash In-Reply-To: <19980923133410.17344.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Daniel Krashin wrote: > > >From my experience, the infodump about the Sumerian language virus > is everybody's least favorite part of the book. I thought it was > meant to be tongue-in-cheek, anyway, and not a plausible theory > of language or of Sumerian history. SF is full of crazy ideas and > secret histories, isn't it? Besides, in the current absence of a > definitive theory of how humans develop language, Stephenson has > license to write whatever he wants. I agree that he can write what he wants. However, my problem with his theories was that they are not just stupid, they are insulting. He brought about that old concept of the antagonism between good and evil as the conflict between make and female (male as good, female as the opposite) and then bound that historical waste to a language theory that contradicted the basic common sense. Of course, he has a right to do that, under the freedom of speech. At the same time, I also have a right to say exactly what I think about that -- er -- stuff and him as the person who came up with it :). Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:49:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/24/98 3:35:31 PM, Monica wrote: <> I love the Honor Harrington books. Own them all. I've mentioned them a couple times on this list but no one seemed to consider them worth commenting on. Or, maybe my comments weren't germane... don't remember. Are they feminist? I'd say yes. Honor has to battle to maintain her position as a fleet Commander, Captain etc. and fight off men who don't think she's good enough, or that women should rise to her status. Her homeworld (the Terra one) has a Queen who has battles with men who question her authority. And Honor is a honorary leader in her adopted world, where women have not been allowed such power. Sounds feminist to me. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:54:24 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG: A Change of Pace (was: BDG announcements) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/24/98 6:09:33 PM, you wrote: <> Oh gee -- well, I'm going to stick by my guns about Honor Harrington. Even if previous posts make good points about women-centered vs feminist. The issues raised are feminist issues, IMHO. Different strokes. They don't bore me. lightly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Snow Crash In-Reply-To: <19980923133410.17344.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:34 AM 9/23/98 PDT, Daniel Krashin wrote: >Has anyone read _True Names_ by Vinge? That's supposedly the most >computer-authentic of all the cyberpunk books, I agree that it's one of the very best stories about what the hacker world is really like, but IIRC, it was written before the name "cyberpunk" was invented. Of course, for instance, Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_ and _Jagged Orbit_ are a decade or more older than "True Names", but there has to be some limit to how far the worn-out name "cyberpunk" can be stretched! Neil NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: promo In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Suzy, Last year the academic journal Science Fiction Studies published a huge listing of science fiction courses offered around the United States. A number of these had a feminist or women's studies orientation. I don't have the issue at home so I can't give you the specific reference, but I'm sure you could get it from one of the editors, Art Evans aevans@depauw.edu or Veronica Hollinger vhollinger@trentu.ca Mike Levy Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:36:18 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: OT - Feminist sf Books for sale CHEAP online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you without money to burn, and who are interested in buying feminist sf books--especially hardcovers--online... Here are some books that I've stumbled across while browsing at Book Express Online. I'm not sure if ALL of these books would be considered "feminist" sf, but they are available at BOOK EXPRESS ONLINE (and those of you who do not live in the U.S., their international surface shipping rate isn't bad). These books are remainders, and the ones I have received in the mail are in new condition except for a small remainder mark. Most of the books listed below are discounted between 70% and 80%, and none listed below are discounted less than 50%: www.bookexpress.com THE FURIES by: Suzy McKee Charnas (HC) $3.99 GODMOTHER NIGHT by: Rachel Pollack (HC) $3.99 NORTH WIND by: Gwyneth Jones (HC) $3.99 MEMENTO MORI by: Shariann Lewitt (HC) $3.99 WAKING THE MOON by: Elizabeth Hand (HC) $6.99 HE, SHE AND IT by: Marge Piercy (HC) $4.99 REMNANT POPULATION by: Elizabeth Moon (HC) $5.99 GAIA'S TOYS by: Rebecca Ore (HC) $2.99 QUEEN CITY JAZZ by: Kathleen Ann Goonan (HC) $3.99 TROUBLE AND HER FRIENDS by: Melissa Scott (HC) $2.99 THE MAID OF THE NORTH: FEMINIST FOLK TALES FROM AROUND THE WORLD by: Ethel Johnston Phelps (SC) $4.49 GIRLS TO THE RESCUE: TALES FROM AROUND THE WORLD by: Bruce Lansky (SC) $1.49 WOMEN AT WAR ed: Lois McMaster Bujold (HC) $4.99 a ground-breaking, all-original collection of hard-hitting military SF by women. Here are tales of women at war: women as soldiers, queens, medics, civilians, victims, and survivors. HC, 384 pages. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:08:14 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Begin BDG Nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As Jennifer announced a few days ago today starts the nomination period for the next round of BDG books. The nomination period closes on Thursday, 1 October. I will compile the nominations, post a summary next Friday (2 Oct.) and create a www page with the nominations. Terri Wakefield will handle the voting. The voting period starts on Monday, 5 Oct. Nominated books can include novels or short story collections and can be any flavor of SF such as science fiction, fantasy, utopian fiction, alternative history, etc. but should not include critical essays. When you nominate a book, include a description of why you feel the group should select it. The description will be included in the nominated books list on the mentioned web site, to help members decide which books to vote for. Books may be recent or "classic", but they must all be available in mass market or trade paperback in order to keep the price within everybody's range. This unfortunately eliminates the out-of-print or very new books, but there's still plenty of great material that qualifies. Please confirm the availability of any title before nominating it by contacting Maryelizabeth at Mysterious Galaxy (http://www.mystgalaxy.com/) (or by looking it up on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/). During the nomination period, you can nominate books by sending email to the group with BDG Nomination (please !!!) in the subject line. BDG guidelines and information can be looked up at http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/ After the discussion in the last days you may wonder how many books we will discuss in the coming BDG round and whether there will be a discussion in January. Jennifer Krauel (jkrauel@actioneer.com) will post the decision on this. However, I do not think that the nomination process is influenced by that. Furthermore, many have posted suggestions in the last days. After some thought, I've decided to ask you to nominate the books formally again. Mostly, because I am afraid I've already deleted some of the relevant posts. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:06:43 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stephanie N. Huthmacher" Subject: out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit how do i get out of this crazy listserve??? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:59:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sanders Subject: Re: Begin BDG Nomination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:08 AM 9/25/98, you wrote: >Books may be recent or "classic", but they must all be available >in mass market or trade paperback in order to keep the price >within everybody's range. Ack--To Say Nothing of the Dog comes out in paper sometime during December. I suppose that eliminates it from our options, eh? Joe "Points out the Obvious" Sutliff Sanders ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:16:52 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: shameless self promotion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well, shameless promotion, anyway--for my sweetie, Kelley Eskridge. Her short story, "Alien Jane," a wonderful examination of how pain makes us human, will form the basis of the next episode of the Sci-Fi Channel's new anthology show, Welcome to Paradox. "Alien Jane" airs Monday Sep 28 at 10pm Eastern, 7pm Pacific and repeats on Saturday Oct 3 at 2pm Eastern, 11am Pacific. There's an "Alien Jane" webpage at http://www.scifi.com/paradox/episodes/alienjane/ On Thursday Oct 1 at 9pm Eastern, 6pm Pacific, Kelley will be the guest of the Dominion chat about the show. Chat site is http://www.scifi.com/chat/ Neither Kelley nor I have actually seen the show, but we've seen a couple of stills and they look fabulous. Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:12:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: SFP: CHARNAS' HOLDFAST SERIES; 10-15-98; ICFA 3-17-22-99 Comments: To: cfp@english.upenn.edu, h-pcaaca@h-net.msu.edu, iafa-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu, SFRA-L@ebbs.english.vt.edu, sfuf@csd.uwm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" CALL FOR PAPERS: Suzy McKee Charnas' _The Holdfast Series_/_The Conqueror's Child_ ICFA, Ft. Lauderdale Airport Hilton, March 17-22, 1999 Proposal Deadline: 10-15-98 We would like to solicit proposals on Suzy McKee Charnas' _Holdfast Series_ that began in 1974 with the publication of the ground-breaking _Walk To The End of The World_ and continued with _Motherlines_ (1978) and _Furies_ (1995). A special session or sessions will be scheduled at the Twentieth International Conference of the Fantastic in the Arts to celebrate the publication (May 1999) of the fourth novel in the series: _The Conqueror's Child_. Suzy McKee Charnas will be attending the conference, and is interested in participating in the session or sessions on her work, especially _The Conqueror's Child_. Proposals on _The Conqueror's Child_ OR on any of the other novels, or combination of novels, in the cycle are welcome. Those interested in presenting a paper on _The Conqueror's Child_ should contact Debbie Notkin (kith@slip.net) to acquire a bound manuscript. The bound manuscripts are available this week (as of September 25). Please send 500-word proposals by October 15 to: Robin Anne Reid Department of Literature & Languages TAMU-C Commerce TX 75429 FAX: 903-886-5980 EMAIL: Robin_Reid@tamu-commerce.edu If you email your proposal, please send hard copy ASAP. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tessa Vaughn Subject: BGD: Shadow Man availability problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have a friend that works in a bookstore and he was going to order it for me. Ingram tells him that they are declaring that book out of print (for those of you who don't know, Ingram is the main distributor for most bookstores, including Barnes and Noble and Borders). So, there may be some serious problems getting this book for those who waited til the last minute (like me). He's going to try to get it directly from St. Martin's press but that can take up to 6 weeks. Wish me luck on finding it somewhere here in town! And, good luck to those who have yet to find a copy. Tessa PS. Yes, I was trying to get the trade version. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:43:16 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BGD: Shadow Man availability problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/25/98 2:56:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tessa@IO.COM writes: << Ingram tells him that they are declaring that book (Shadow Man) out of print >> I just checked both http://www.bibliofind and http://www.abebooks and they both have several copies of Shadow Man by Melissa Scott. I got my copy through abebooks. BUT you need to hurry, because only some of the copies are paper at reasonable prices, most of them are hardbound for (yoiks) $22 or so. I have sent for several books through these services, and have found them to be great. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:35:24 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: BGD: Shadow Man availability problem In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:56 PM 9/25/98 -0500, Tessa wrote: >Ingram tells him that they are declaring that book out of print (for >those of you who don't know, Ingram is the main distributor for most >bookstores, including Barnes and Noble and Borders). So, there may be >some serious problems getting this book for those who waited til the last >minute (like me). He's going to try to get it directly from St. Martin's >press but that can take up to 6 weeks. Wish me luck on finding it >somewhere here in town! I have had similar problems in Australia - only the hard-cover is available at an exorbitant cost (around $50 Aust) - from overseas, the paperback editions are of a slightly lower cost with shipping/postal costs included - but with delivery times unable to be guaranteed in less than 4 weeks. Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:52:46 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: BDG: Nominations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Carol Emshwiller, The Start of the End of It All A collection of complex short stories: most explore inner landscapes of women living in dangerous or bewildering circumstances. Told with humor and humanity. Angela Carter The Bloody Chamber and Other Stories [Note: this collection of stories is out in paperback on its own, but is also part of the omnibus collection Burning Your Boats: Collected Stories--- an amazing deal in paperback, $12-$15; it's too large to be considered for the BDG, but is well worth buying instead of the smaller collection for any fan of Carter] Prime Carter. Just 10 works, some very short: dark and sumptuous variations on fairy tales, with a vampire story and a werewolf. Wolves that are hairy on the inside, Tigers that weep tears of amber. Connie Willis To Say Nothing of the Dog and Bellwether, in case no one else nominates them: NO child-abuse, NO graphic sex, NO dreary utopias Dog is a witty embroidery around Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat. Travels in time back and forth to Victorian Oxford with an unravelling train of thought. Bellwether is about chaos theory, social trends, dwindling research funding, inept lab assistants, and the sheep that pull it all together. C. J. Cherryh Cyteen Probably the best cloning sf written. A powerful woman who heads, among other things, a vast genetic-engineering concern (designing, birthing, training customized workers) dies suddenly, and a clone is very carefully reared to take her place. Most of the book deals with the raising of her clone (with computerized advice from the original) in a dangerous political atmosphere, and her relationship with the man the original traumatized in his adolescence. Much science, much action, intriguing characters. Interesting issues of sex, power, network associations, and genetics. Beautifully put together, crisp writing, great dialogue, nothing sloppy. Nancy Springer Fair Peril: A middle-aged woman finds a talking frog and tries to protect her daughter against fairy tales. Not as significant as Larque on the Wing, but fun. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:48:48 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: BDG books/ bookexpress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tessa: Yes, there was/is a problem with SHADOW MAN, which met the availability requirements when nominated, and in a spectacular display of bad karma, became unavailable almost immediately after the books were selected. Good luck. Joe: TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG should be fine for nomination, as we are speaking of books to be discussed in Jan at the earliest, IIRC. I liked the suggestions for CHICKS IN CHAINMAIL edited by Esther Friesner and BOHR MAKER by Linda Nagata, although we may need to double check availability on the Nagata. I'd like to add THE FAMILY TREE by Sheri Tepper to the nominations. BTW, I have also had good experiences with bookexpress, although I would caution those who care that these are definitely reading copies, not necessarily in collectible condition. Also, for those who may live near Crown Books, the ones in my area are having a clearance of 70% off the remainder price on some of their non-returnable stock. This means I picked up a copy of Nancy Kress's OATHS AND MIRACLES the other day for $1.20. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: Anne Vespry Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: BGD: Shadow Man availability problem Comments: To: Julieanne * In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980926213524.007e7200@ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 26 Sep 1998, Julieanne * wrote: > At 04:56 PM 9/25/98 -0500, Tessa wrote: > >So, there may be > >some serious problems getting this book for those who waited til the last > >minute (like me). > I have had similar problems in Australia - only the hard-cover is available > at an exorbitant cost (around $50 Aust) - from overseas, the paperback > editions are of a slightly lower cost with shipping/postal costs included - > but with delivery times unable to be guaranteed in less than 4 weeks. Last time we discussed this I suggested checking your local Lesbian/gay bookshop and/or your local feminist/women's bookshop. Either of these might carry the book, and both tend to keep stock longer than mainstream bookshops. I also mentioned that there is (still) a trade paperback copy of _Shadow Man_ available at After Stonewall in Ottawa, and, yes, we will do mail order, and Canada Post says 1-2 weeks shipping time for approx $8 Canadian (which would be about $5 US). Oh, and the book itself retails for $19.95... Anne Anne Vespry ******* http://www.vex.net/~maverick After Stonewall Bookshop ***** never forget avespry(at) *** only dead fish ollisdotuottawadotca * swim WITH the stream ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:46:15 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: BDG Nomination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I nominate THE WOMEN OF WONDER: THE CONTEMPORARY YEARS Science Fiction by Women from the 1970s to the 1990s ed. Pamela Sargent (with intro. by Pamela Sargent) This is available in trade paperback. ------------------- Contents (short stories): "Cassandra" / C.J. CHERRYH "The Thaw" / TANITH LEE "Scorched Supper on New Niger" / SUZY McKEE CHARNAS "Abominable" / CAROL EMSHWILLER "Bluewater Dreams" / SYDNEY J. VAN SCYOC "The Cabinet of Edgar Allen Poe" / ANGELA CARTER "The Harvest of Wolves" / MARY GENTLE "Bloodchild" / OCTAVIA E. BUTLER "Fears" / PAMELA SARGENT "Webrider" / JAYGE CARR "Alexia and Graham Bell" / ROSALEEN LOVE "Reichs-Peace" / SHEILA FINCH "Angel" / PAT CADIGAN "Rachel in Love" / PAT MURPHY "Game Night at the Fox and Goose" / KAREN JOY FOWLER "Tiny Tango" / JUDITH MOFFETT "At the Rialto" / CONNIE WILLIS "Midnight News" / LISA GOLDSTEIN "And Wild for to Hold" / NANCY KRESS "Immaculate" / STORM CONSTANTINE "Farming in Virginia" / REBECCA ORE ********************************** Choosing this short story collection ensures that the BDG members will be exposed to a wide variety of female authors and writing styles. I particularly like short story collections, because they allow people with hectic schedules to enjoy reading in the 10 or 20 minutes they can put aside at a time without worrying that they will have to go back and reread a bit of a novel so they'll know what is going on the next time they pick up the book. Of course the best thing about this collection is that it might introduce some BDG members to an author that they haven't read before, discover that they like, and want to read more works of. -Sharon Clark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: CRONES Update Comments: To: Todd Mason , Sharon Anderson , Robin Reid , Melnjo , Maryelizabeth Hart , Marge Tillman , lilith , lquilter@igc.apc.org, Kathleen M Friello , Katharine Woods , Jessie Stickgold-Sarah , Ines Lassnig , Catherine Asaro , Anthea , AnnyMiddon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Potential New, and Already Established CRONES So let us open discussion on chapter 3. I will post a brief comment to perhaps spark discussion. The archiving has taken extensive sorting out, but Lilith is still vigorously pursuing this effort. Again, if you think we are moving too slowly, let me know. And If anyone is still searching for the text, let me know. I will help you locate a copy. find the site at http://www.breakingset.org Note: I will be on extensive travel (work and play) over the next three weeks so if anyone encounters problems with the site please contact Lilith directly at ligeia@concentric.net Thanks to all for your thoughtful participation. peace, donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:54:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edythe Huffman Subject: Re: BDG Nomination In-Reply-To: <360D4487.29817080@cas.et.tudelft.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I 2nd Sharon Clark's nomination of Women of Wonder:The Contemporary Years. I have lurked up to this point; I'm a librarian, who once read constantly and am now reduced to being selective. I was an English major and od'ed on books like Thomas Pynchon's "V", so I appreciate books that tell an intelligible story, especially since I begin to forget if there are too many characters or storylines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hennepin County Library Edythe Huffman ehuffman@sun.hennepin.lib.mn.us Eden Prairie Library phone: 612-829-5460 479 Prairie Center Drive fax: 612-941-6035 Eden Prairie, MN 55344 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:03:59 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Shadow Man Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Rats...I think I sent this wrong. I just checked www.http://www.abebooks.com and http://bibliofind.com and they BOTH have copies of Shadow Man. These are second hand, you can still get copies fairly cheap...or, if you want, they have VG/VG copies in hardbound for more. I got my copy through abebooks and it is worth the extra effort! Good Luck, Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:25:56 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbera Radford Subject: Re: BDG Nomination and bleak holidays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sharon Clark wrote: << I particularly like short story collections, because they allow people with hectic schedules to enjoy reading in the 10 or 20 minutes....Of course the best thing about this collection is that it might introduce some BDG members to an author that they haven't read before...>> This tends to work well even if you aren't the busiest person in the world in December and January. And those comments about how much I have enjoyed Sargeant's collections over the years will be saved for campaiging. Marina, your story about the dreadful college holidays was evocative. It's the bleakness that makes the discomfort not a challenge, but a misery. A woman I knew who was from Japan, went to a college that closed the dorms for about 10 days over every Christmas holiday. She apparently had no place to go, so she CAMPED on the campus lawn until the dorms opened again. This was in Nebraska (one of those square plain states in the middle for those not familiar with US geography) which tends to windy daytime temps less than 40 and night time temps below freezing in December. As when you told your story, I was astonished that no one, no a single person had invited her to visit over the holiday knowing her family was in Japan. Makes me wonder...I don't know if it's feminist or not, but this is kind of a sf or fantasy occurence. Barbera ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:53:01 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: BDG Nomination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'd like to nominate: Ursula K. Le Guin _Four ways to forgiveness_ (Harper Mass Market Paperbacks Reprint edition August 1996 ISBN: 0061054011) Consists of 4 interconnected tales about 4 different characters during revolution and political turmoil on twin planets where an era of slavery and repression is coming to an end. Connie Willis _Doomsday Book_ (Spectra Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition September 1993 ISBN: 0553562738) Fantasy of a young student historian who travels back in time from 2048 to an English village in 1348 just as the Black Plague was about to begin. The book paints a bleak and harrowing picture of life in the 14th C. It won both Hugo and Nebula awards. Elizabeth Moon _The Deed of Paksenarrion_ (Baen Books Paperback Reissue edition February 1992 ISBN: 0671721046) This is an omnibus volume containing Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy (Sheepfarmer's Daughter, Divided Allegiance, and Oath of Gold). Joanna Russ _The Female Man_ (Beacon Press Paperback Reprint edition January 1987 ISBN: 0807063134) This book is too well known to need summarising. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:31:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: BDG Nomination In-Reply-To: <8025668C.00783587.00@osiris.postmaster.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have read Le Guin's "Four" and Moon's "Deed" and Russ' "Female." All are great books in my estimation. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Mike Stanton wrote: > I'd like to nominate: > > Ursula K. Le Guin > _Four ways to forgiveness_ (Harper Mass Market Paperbacks Reprint edition > August 1996 ISBN: 0061054011) > Consists of 4 interconnected tales about 4 different characters during > revolution and political turmoil on twin planets where an era of slavery > and repression is coming to an end. > > Connie Willis > _Doomsday Book_ (Spectra Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition September > 1993 ISBN: 0553562738) > Fantasy of a young student historian who travels back in time from 2048 to > an English village in 1348 just as the Black Plague was about to begin. The > book paints a bleak and harrowing picture of life in the 14th C. It won > both Hugo and Nebula awards. > > Elizabeth Moon > _The Deed of Paksenarrion_ (Baen Books Paperback Reissue edition February > 1992 ISBN: 0671721046) > This is an omnibus volume containing Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy > (Sheepfarmer's Daughter, Divided Allegiance, and Oath of Gold). > > Joanna Russ > _The Female Man_ (Beacon Press Paperback Reprint edition January 1987 ISBN: > 0807063134) > This book is too well known to need summarising. > > > > Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:28:25 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have summarised the nominations so far. You can look them up on http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_nom.htm Please let me know if you want to add any comments to the nominations or want to correct something. I myself nominate Brown Girl in the Ring by Nalo Hopkinson. Paperback (July 1998). Warner Books; ISBN: 0446674338, List Price: $12.99 BGR won the Warner Aspect First Novel Contest. Several people have already commented the novel on the list, all favourable. As example I repost a review by Maryelizabeth from Mysterious Galaxy (July 1998): "Hopkinson's debut novel is the premier winner of the Warner Aspect First Novel Contest. Future winners have a high standard to match. BROWN GIRL IN THE RINGtells the story of Ti-Jeanne, a young woman of Caribbean heritage in a bleak near-future Toronto. Like the players in the game for which the novel is named, Ti-Jeanne must learn by observation of her grandmother's magic ritual in order to do battle for those she loves. Part of what makes this novel exceptional is the recognition of the often bitter and difficult nature of family relationships. Also, unlike many SF novels, it features both people of color (rather than peoples of exotic colors) and a main character actively immersed in her family. I very much enjoy genre- blending novels, as well as those which give me insights into other cultures, and BROWN GIRL IN THE RING does that and more. Part horror novel, part SF and part dark fantasy, it blends genres with a deftness which can escape more experienced hands." Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:40:11 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: BDG Nominations, Women of Wonder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is a terrific collection of short fiction, but maybe awkward to handle for just one month (21 works, some rather long): could it be broken into 2 parts to be considered sequentially or independently? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:55:58 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: BDG Nomination: WEBER Content-Type: text/plain I happened to notice this weekend, while shopping at Wal-Mart for new heads for my Dremel tool, that BAEN books had put out a new edition of David Weber's _On Basilisk Station_ for only $2.00 US. That's pretty cheap for a novel these days, and IIRC _On Basilisk Station_ is the Honor Harrington novel that deals w/ feminist issues most directly. Also, like most series, the early ones are better reads, with less time taken in all the cute business that has built up over the course of the series. I think it would make a nice change of pace for the BDG, being fairly upbeat space opera. And, like I said, it's darn cheap, but Weber is popular enough that used copies should be plentiful as well. Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:42:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: BDG Nomination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'd like to nominate _Jaran_, by Kate Elliott. Described by the author (I believe) as "Jane Austen meets Ghengis Khan", it got fulsome if not particularly analytical reviews on amazon.com. A little science fiction, some well-drawn aliens, some romance, a bunch of galloping across the plains, and a rigidly sex-stratified culture along totally different lines than you would expect. (For instance, women have no choice in marriage, but can sleep with whomever they want; the father of a child is *defined* as the husband of the mother.) The author calls it "speculation about gender roles and how other peoples might bring different expectations to what it means to be and act female and/or male"; and it does this without either dystopia or utopia. A happier book than some we've read lately. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:38:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sanders Subject: EGSO Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
CALL FOR PAPERS
CONNECTIONS: Weaving a Web of Interdisciplinary Understanding The third University of Kentucky Graduate Conference explores all aspects of culture as studied by various disciplines within the academy. Graduate students in these disciplines investigating the relationships between culture and traditional disciplinary subject matter are invited to submit presentation proposals. Panel sessions will group together papers from various disciplines to promote cross-disciplinary discussion in the interest of making connections between our fields. Cultural Studies Conference Friday-Sunday, March 5-7, 1999 Keynote Speaker Susan Bordo author of Unbearable Weight: Feminism, Western Culture and the Body Submissions might include, but are not limited to: Pop Culture of the Past and Present Cultural Anthropology Bodies and Space Literary Criticism Technology and Culture Nation Theory Ethnomusicology Culture, Texts and Contexts Sociolinguistics Comparative Literature Ethnography Ecocriticism Science & Society Folklore Abstracts of 350 words should be mailed by December 1, 1998 to Connections Conference, University of Kentucky, 1215 Patterson Office Tower, Lexington, KY 40506-0027 or email to lkstei0@pop.uky.edu. Complete papers will be due by February 1, 1999. UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY GRADUATE CONFERENCE III
<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:47:43 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: DARK MATTER: An Anthology (call for submissions) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I got this on another list, but figured this would be the right audience. I would be quite interested in this book when it comes out. If you have access to the New York Review of Science Fiction, there's an interesting essay in a recent edition about race in the SF world, written by Delany. I recommend it. >Subject: DARK MATTER: An Anthology > >Hi, > >I am seeking original short fiction for a collection I am editing, >DARK MATTER: An Anthology of Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Speculative >Fiction by Black Writers. Featuring the works of established and >emerging black writers, this groundbreaking collection will be published >by Warner in 2000. The deadline for submissions is April 30, 1999. >Submissions and queries can be addressed to: > >Sheree R. Thomas >Attn: DARK MATTER >765 Amsterdam Avenue #3C >New York, New York 10025 >esmarth@banet.net > >Could you please share this call for submissions with your audience? > >Thanks, >Sheree R. Thomas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:42:05 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: BDG Nomination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-09-27 18:05:58 EDT, you write: << Joanna Russ _The Female Man_ (Beacon Press Paperback Reprint edition January 1987 ISBN: 0807063134) This book is too well known to need summarising. >> Perhaps I've been living on some other planet without my knowledge (or maybe it's the fact that I've been a "stay-at-home mom" for the last three years), but this book isn't known to me at all, and I would appreciate a summary. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:02:05 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: BDG: Shadow Man, online reviews Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Melissa Scott, Shadow Man A few online reviews and other related matter Reviews: Jennifer Krauel, SF Review: http://www.wenet.net/~kwriter/Public/SFReview/Reviews/ShadowMan.htm L.R.C. Munro, Science Fiction Weekly http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue39/books.html Caroline Boyden, A Different Light (bookstore), short: http://www.adlbooks.com/~adl/scifi.html Amazon has pulled its listings of Shadow Man; The former Amazon synopsi of the book is quoted at: http://www.sf3.org/book/199 but reader reviews are lost Misc: Melissa Scott Home page http://www.rscs.net/~ms001/mainpage.html Scott's descriptionof Shadow Man, excerpted reviews, background on its writing http://www.rscs.net/~ms001/shadowm.html Wiscon 21: regarding Scott at the conference; some descriptions of papers addressing aspects of Shadow Man http://www.sf3.org/sf3-bin/searchfaq.cgi/program?words=Melissa+Scott Syllabus for an interesting English course on politics of gender, University of Maryland (Shadow Man assigned reading) http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/English/Syllabi/Spring97/7 58Leonardi.html Series of fan-fiction stories based on "Urusei Yatsura" created by Rumiko Takahashi incorporating The Hustari, inspired by Shadow Man [this site contains a breakdown of the 5 genders, modes of address, and pronounciation] http://kame.usr.dsi.unimi.it:1111/ftp/fanfics/Urusei-Yatsura-The-Senior- Year/dakejinzous-story.txt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edythe Huffman Subject: Re: BDG Nomination In-Reply-To: <9809281842.AA10760@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 2nd this nomination. > I'd like to nominate _Jaran_, by Kate Elliott. > > jessie > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hennepin County Library Edythe Huffman ehuffman@sun.hennepin.lib.mn.us Eden Prairie Library phone: 612-829-5460 479 Prairie Center Drive fax: 612-941-6035 Eden Prairie, MN 55344 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:26:19 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Yvonne Rowse Subject: Re: BDG Nomination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to second Four Ways to Forgiveness by LeGuin. Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:49:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: nomination tips Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm totally behind on email -- but I am now scuba certified. After diving I can say there's no real need to make up new kinds of alien species, just look under water. I've scanned lots of emails with great ideas for books to discuss. Keep them coming. Based on our previous iterations, the best way to get your book selected is to give more information when you nominate a book. Be sure, of course, to verify that it's available in paperback. But also, spend a few paragraphs to describe what the book's about and why it would be good to discuss. You've seen how the discussions have gone so far -- why do you think the group would enjoy this new book? Sell it to us. I believe the fabulous Petra is planning to compile these descriptions into a web page that you can print out or read later to decide how you want to vote. Regards, Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:00:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Vogt, Melissa" Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Information overload.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I joined this listserv (and another) with my own intentions for finding info for a research project and I genuinely love "hearing" everyone's comments about all these interesting books I'd like to read someday, but since I'm working 45-60 hours a week, I can not keep up with the volume of e-mail. I'm too afraid if I don't check it every day I might crash the server for the university!!! So, this is just to let you know I will no longer be "lurking' (I think this is the term) on your list. Auf weidersehn! Melissa K. Vogt Postal Mail school:522 Burford Hall Terre Haute, IN 47809 USA home:1015 East 800 South Wolcottville, IN 46795-9234 USA