From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Dec 29 16:03:25 1998 Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:57:33 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: lquilter@HOOKED.NET Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9810C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:14:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: words that put us in our place Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/98 9:46:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, levymm@UWEC.EDU writes: << Not to be too pedantic, but Koko is a gorilla, >> I thought she was a chimp, too. Green slime, huh? I love it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:43:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 12 Oct 1998 to 13 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:04 AM 10/14/98, Automatic digest processor wrote >On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > >> I still like Ripley's "bitch" line. I like to think I would have protected >> the kid. > >Me too. I just wish it was not the only "permissible" reason for a woman >to get into a fight. it never stops surprising me that the myth of >the "weaker sex" always comes with the exception for a "mother defending >her young". It always seemed to me extremely illogical -- if a person has >the strength to kick butt in one set of curcumstances, she can do it in any >other. She still has the same body and the same mind. But if she can use her skills and strength to defend *herself*, she ceases to be the natural victim whose rescue gives the male hero his raison d'etre. All of a sudden we're all just people -- and there is nothing more threaten- ing than this to the powers that be in a masculinist culture based on various levels of brute force, competition, and hierarchy. As Marina said, also. >I think the reason villains are usually male are the same as why heroes >often are -- it's a "default" gender. So unless the author is trying to >make a point that women can be good and bad like all people (or unless >it's a traditional "good man against bad woman to save nice girl"), there >is one female hero surrounded by male heroes, male villains, and male >bystanders. > >Marina This is one of the major tests, to me, of whether a work is "feminist" or not: does the heroine or female protagonist have other women in her life, as all real women do -- mother, sisters, daughters maybe, aunts, female mentors, female colleagues, female rivals and female enemies? Does the author see, and reflect in his or her writing for us to see as well, that the real world really is roughly half and half, and that both men and women have many, many important ties to women as well as to men? Lack of that awareness is a dead giveaway that you are not dealing with a feminist work because it does not honor the reality of female presence and impact in women's lives. Look at THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, in which Starling does *not* sleep with her boss but has a close relationship with another FBI agent -- a woman friend. They are women working to save a female victim; and the victim, who is a large, not particularly pretty woman, has the wits and the self-possession to do some of her rescue herself. A remarkable effort, I thought, within the rather strict limitations of the form (not a lot of room for filling in Starling's family, and a masculine surround in the FBI millieu). Years ago, I wrote to the author congratulating him (I had admired but disliked his earlier book, RED DRAGON, for its damsel-in-distress saved by hero ending) and he replied that he had done research with a couple of female FBI agents, which experience had opened his eyes. I got the impression that what he did with LAMBS in this respect was in some sense a penance for DRAGON, although I may be reading more into this than is really there (and I don't know where his letter is right now -- files in chaos!). Anyway, it's nice to see someone pick himself up by the scruff of the neck and make himself *grow*. Suzy MC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:44:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 12 Oct 1998 to 13 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marina wrote: >They also say "a feminist woman would not _want_ to be a President. The >politics are too dirty and competitive and against the nice, sharing >nature of women. I'd have said that it's because US politics are too dirty and competi- tive and damaging to the soul, not to say dangerous to health and to one's future -- look at the public lynching that the American patriarchy is in- dulging in right now in the case of a man who likes women (way too much) and has repeatedly stood in the way of their effort to outlaw abortions again! Sheesh. He's got a 6 million dollar lawyer debt and no end in sight. Who wants to get near that kind of life-shredding machine? >I think media does it on purpose. Women who want to participate in this >world instead of organizing communes are a lot more threatening to the >male dominance in power structures. But I do agree with you here. Anthea wrote: >I think I mentioned it here before, but I read about and ancient custom >that had existed in Albania. There, a woman was allowed to drink, smoke, >ride horses and generally participate in "male" activities with one single >condition -- they had to remain virgins for life. Ah, yes, the Albanian virgin -- very apposite, in fact, since one of the male activities was participating in deadly feuds. I read about this in a book called HIGH ALBANIA, about that country around the years of the Great War, and I recall the (female Scottish) author's disgust with a family con- fab debating whether for purposes of a feud, it was okay to shoot and kill a 12 year old boy belonging to the enemy family. They decided that it was. >So all those taboos for >women about being strong in the end are not about their ability to nurture >or bear children. It's all about sex. She can do anything men do, if >she gives up that. Because one thing macho men cannot bear is the idea >that they (or any man) can be sexually involved with a woman who can kick >their butt. If she does not have sex, she is not really a woman, and then >it's OK. I think men tend to fear that having sex with a woman gives her great power over them (maybe because men give their own sex drives so much power over themselves); the idea may be that if a woman has *that* kind of power, that's already a lot, and the only counter-balance a man has is his superior strength and ability to protect/punish her. If he has no edge in this respect, then he *has* no counter-balance, and he is "at her mercy." So it's one or the other, strength/authority *or* sexuality -- although in many cultures, it's just the one: sexuality and subjugation, and if you try to show strength, they destroy you. Suzy MC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:44:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 12 Oct 1998 to 13 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: Jim Hollomon >Subject: Re: feminism and violence >If a male can jump into this for a moment, I'm just as sick of blood-and-gore >movies. I'm equally appalled at the idea that might makes right, and that the >world would be a better place if we substituted mob violence and bands of >roving thugs for the rule of law. We have only to look at life in places like >Bosnia during the "ethnic cleansing" or the Tutsi vs. Hutu tribal violence in >and around Somalia to see what horrors such thinking brings to life. Give this >pansy the rule of law any day. Like you, I'm perfectly willing to take up arms >when the alternative is surrendering to some deranged tyrant like an Adolph >Hitler. However, that falls way short of glorifying the violence of W.W.II. At >best, it should be seen as a necessary evil. But there is a strain in US culture, at any rate, of not just glorifying war but enjoying it. I heard an interview on radio tonight with the author of TRIAGE, a novel about a war-photographer. The author is himself a frontline journalist of considerable experience (including Bosnia), and he said that he was raised in a military milieu and as a young man thought of war as an ad- venture and an "ultimate test" -- for and of himself, of course, not the poor civilians who are suffering in the meanwhile. This attitude is perfect- ly understandable in a young, self-absorbed man with lots of physical energy and restlessness and noplace to put it except the basketball or the tennis court. He also said that it's unwise to discount the pathos in the situation of a young soldier returning from war and understanding that the most exciting and important-seeming part of his life is *behind him*. Suzy MC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 02:25:31 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Re: feminism, fantasy, sf In-Reply-To: <3624A60F.1A70@earthlink.net> (message from Allyson Shaw on Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:24:30 +0000) There's an anecdote I love (tho' I have no idea of its veracity) from back in the 80's when miniskirts were making a comeback. Apparently Gloria Steinem was pictured wearing one and the media made a big stink about how she was betraying feminism. Someone asked Betty Friedan what she thought of it and she said that Gloria should wear whatever she wanted to wear. Then the interviewer asked "But you would never wear one, would you?" Betty replied "Of course not, I don't have Gloria's legs." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:25:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Burton Subject: Re: The Lifetime Channel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, the material on the Lifetime Channel can be educational. However, careful analysis reveals that, in fact, the underlying message is that men are the enemy. They are vicious, violent manipulators who are not to be trusted. If the goal of feminism is, in fact, to advance the equality of *all* people, then as far as I can see this network is sending the wrong message. My other complaint is that the characters in Lifetime dramas are invariably middle and upper class, with lifestyles poor women are very unlikely to find recognizable. I tried reading one of the Danielle Steele novels on which one such movie was based and gave up halfway through. Frankly, listening to all of those rich, overfed people whining about how hard their lives were turned me off. Yes, I'm aware money doesn't buy happiness. But at least it will buy your kids clothes and food. Lisa Xanadu Scriveners http://members.tripod.com/~Borogrove/editor.html Pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/16062745 ICQ SFF Writers' Group http://groups.icq.com/group.asp?no=409617 The Dance of Light and Magic http://www.delphi.com/Castle_of_Light -----Original Message----- From: Phoebe Wray To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Oct 1998 to 11 Oct 1998 >In a message dated 10/14/98 2:23:03 AM, Madrone wrote: > ><> > >I've been thinking about this in connection with the rape/violence/women vs >men stuff that is rampant on Lifetime TV -- the Channel for Women. Struck me >two ways: >1) showing the violence is "educational." Yeah yeah, we all know about it, >but it is so pervasive on this channel at least, that there may be some women >who learn that they are not alone. and >2) does this violence against women de-sensitize us the way male rip 'em >movies seems to be doing. > >I'm still thinking about this. But I throw it out for debate. On the one >hand exposing the extent of violence against women is a good thing, but the >fct that it is media dramatized makes me uncomfortable. > >Any thoughts? > >lightly, >phoebe >zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Oct 1998 to 11 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To me, "real" cop shows aren't news, per se. And people's motivations for watching them differ from those for watching the news, I hope. Those police videos are the equivalent of shoot-em ups, if not worse, because they use real footage to lie. They use footage selectively and with bias, while pretending that it's real, thereby distorting the idea that anything can be real. (And I know we could get into the Jean Baudrillard of it all, but frankly, Jean is a famous professor and philosopher and has a lot more space to mess with the idea of reality than do those of us who have to live in it.) And they use other people's genuine suffering as entertainment. I think they're the natural follow-up to the stupider sort of violent movie; fake violence no longer gives us a high, so we need real violence, but not REAL real violence which might be scary and complicated, but fake real violence, which is just exciting. George Orwell observed during WWII that most people doing anti-bomb work in London (pretty exciting and dangerous) liked to read "Yank mags", action pulps from America. Real violence is horrid. Fake violence is glamorous. >Of course, there's the whole question of TV shows like Xena (which I've only watched once) that seem pretty violent but in a different way from say a Stallone movie. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:19:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Tolerance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just yesterday I talked to the organiser for this group I'm in, Citizens In Solidarity With the People of El Salvador (started out doing anti-intervention work in the eighties, has morphed into an immigrant rights group) I asked her about pressure on senators and representatives. She said she thought it was a good idea. I know that here in Minneapolis, there have been several articles in the paper about people who were threatened with deportation, sympathetic articles. It might be worth while to aim for some publicity, because then it will make it more embarrassing if they really do deport. I for one will be happy to write letters to political people or to newspapers. There has to be some way we can prevent this. >>> "Demetria M. Shew" 10/14 11:18 PM >>> In a message dated 10/14/98 8:33:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << Excuse me for jumping in here, but I'm getting really anxious about you being deported, Marina. Is there anything anyone else can do? Political people we can pressure? Perhaps the senator in the state you're in? >> Could we e-mail the Senator or is that a lame idea? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:43:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tessa Vaughn Subject: BDG: Which books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Like a dummy, I deleted the message that said which books we're reading next year. Could someone please resend me the list? Thanks, Tessa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:23:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Merris, Rhian M" Subject: Re: words that put us in our place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > exactly. by the way, have you noticed that ther is not > a good word for a strong woman? Guys in this situation > use the description "He is The Man." Kind of more pleasant > than "she is a bitch in a good sense", isn't it? My sister and I were talking about exactly that a while back. "You go girl!" is the closest thing I could think of to "You the Man!". Obviously the diminuition - girl, instead of man, undermines that. I was sorry I couldn't think of a better one in common usage. Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:32:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Merris, Rhian M" Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Oct 1998 to 11 Oct 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Madrone, speaking of Marina: > I remain deeply concerned about your status here. Can > > we help? May we help? > > Thank you, that would be great. But i don't really know > how. I've got this lawyer who is supposed to resubmit my > asylum case. If she's any good in it and if she won't dump > me because I cannot pay her, maybe things will work out. > If not-- I don't really know what else to do. So how about a "Marina Legal defense fund"? I'd contribute. Anyone else? Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Famous signing primates In-Reply-To: <615c0831.362584bd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:14 AM 10/15/98 EDT, Madrone wrote: >In a message dated 10/14/98 9:46:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >levymm@UWEC.EDU writes: > ><< Not to be too pedantic, but Koko is a gorilla, >> > >I thought she was a chimp, too. Green slime, huh? I love it. Koko is a gorilla. There is another famous signing primate named Washoe, who is a chimpanzee (is she still alive?). My favorite phrase from Koko described radishes, which she DIDN'T LIKE: Cry Hurt Food. It still makes me laugh. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Tricky -- Maxinquaye "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:01:17 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Tolerance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/98 7:19:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << ust yesterday I talked to the organiser for this group I'm in, Citizens In Solidarity With the People of El Salvador (started out doing anti-intervention work in the eighties, has morphed into an immigrant rights group) I asked her about pressure on senators and representatives. She said she thought it was a good idea. >> Marina? What state are you in? Can we maybe talk about a stratigy to do this as a group? Anyone interested? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:09:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Merris, Rhian M" Subject: Marina defense fund MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I wanted to repost this with a better subject. > -----Original Message----- > From: Merris, Rhian M [SMTP:RHIAN.M.MERRIS@cpmx.saic.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 11:33 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Oct 1998 to 11 Oct 1998 > > Madrone, speaking of Marina: > > > I remain deeply concerned about your status here. Can > > > we help? May we help? > > > > Thank you, that would be great. But i don't really know > > how. I've got this lawyer who is supposed to resubmit my > > asylum case. If she's any good in it and if she won't dump > > me because I cannot pay her, maybe things will work out. > > If not-- I don't really know what else to do. > > So how about a "Marina Legal defense fund"? I'd contribute. Anyone else? > > Rhian > rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:13:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Oct 1998 to 11 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd contribute some...I'm not sure how much I could spare. And Marina, are you confident in your lawyer? If it's not too intrusive to ask, where are you? There are groups that give legal advice on this kind of thing, if your lawyer's not a specialist in this field. I don't really know all the details on this sort of thing--who hears your case? Is it the INS? If it is, can you find out who the local INS person is? Sometimes they can be pressured. >>> "Merris, Rhian M" 10/15 10:32 AM >>> Madrone, speaking of Marina: > I remain deeply concerned about your status here. Can > > we help? May we help? > > Thank you, that would be great. But i don't really know > how. I've got this lawyer who is supposed to resubmit my > asylum case. If she's any good in it and if she won't dump > me because I cannot pay her, maybe things will work out. > If not-- I don't really know what else to do. So how about a "Marina Legal defense fund"? I'd contribute. Anyone else? Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:21:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Tolerance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There has to be a web site that gives advice on this stuff. Immigration is a hot political topic. I don't have time to search the web right now, but if anyone does....I'll try to think of some more people I can ask here in Minneapolis. I think the University has a Center for Refugees, but I'm not sure. Okay. We have a Refugee Studies Center. And the Law School has a Human Rights Center. I'll try calling them, probably not till later today or tomorrow. I'm not sure how much help they'll be, but maybe they can give some advice. >>> "Demetria M. Shew" 10/15 11:01 AM >>> In a message dated 10/15/98 7:19:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << ust yesterday I talked to the organiser for this group I'm in, Citizens In Solidarity With the People of El Salvador (started out doing anti-intervention work in the eighties, has morphed into an immigrant rights group) I asked her about pressure on senators and representatives. She said she thought it was a good idea. >> Marina? What state are you in? Can we maybe talk about a stratigy to do this as a group? Anyone interested? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:18:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia In-Reply-To: <70cd2e72.3625743f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > > Serbian women >> > > > Is there something we can do here? I mean, I am dead tired of all this > torture and rape. I don't care who is being tortured and raped or why, I want > it to stop and I want it to stop now. Right now. > > Anybody have any ideas? I'm serious. I am thinking about creating a section in my web site dedicated to violence against women in former Yugoslavia. Even though there is a lot of publicity about rapes of Muslim women, it's used more for propaganda purposes. At the same time, nothing is said about the crimes against Serbian women, and nothing is said about the treatment of Muslim rape victims by fanatical Muslim men. I think, if anything, it could help to create a more fair picture of what is happening to women there, with concern about women and not who has to get bombed. Let me know what you all think about it. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:38:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Merris, Rhian M" Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sounds like not a bad idea. Like you said, we don't get much of a picture here in the U.S. Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Marina [SMTP:my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 1998 12:18 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OT- Bosnia > > On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > > > > Serbian women >> > > > > > > Is there something we can do here? I mean, I am dead tired of all this > > torture and rape. I don't care who is being tortured and raped or why, > I want > > it to stop and I want it to stop now. Right now. > > > > Anybody have any ideas? I'm serious. > > I am thinking about creating a section in my web site dedicated to > violence against women in former Yugoslavia. Even though there is a lot > of publicity about rapes of Muslim women, it's used more for propaganda > purposes. At the same time, nothing is said about the crimes against > Serbian women, and nothing is said about the treatment of Muslim rape > victims by fanatical Muslim men. I think, if anything, it could help to > create a more fair picture of what is happening to women there, with > concern about women and not who has to get bombed. > > Let me know what you all think about it. > > Marina > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:40:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Fake/real violence In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You know, I thought a lot about why people who have very little violence around them like so much watching it on TV. I mean, in my country no one would want to watch something like Cops, or hear people on the TV news describing in detail who got shot, raped, robbed, and killed in a car accident over the past few hours. When you know that something bad can happen to you at any moment, you don't want to see it on TV, hear about it, or think about it. When there is too much violence around you, you don't want to watch it at your spare time. I wonder what makes it so popular to people whose lives are more or less safe? Is it some kind of sensory deprivation that makes people seek the thrill of danger eliminated from their lives? I've heard once in some learning program that cows like to hang out by railroad tracks because of the sensory deprivation -- to feed their atavistic hunger for strong emotions left over from the days when they had to run from predators (since a train is huge, loud, and makes the ground shake, it gives them "a healthy dose" of thrill). Just a thought. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:48:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia - women support web site In-Reply-To: <61F3509CFECFD111B03700805FBBF0551F7DAB@us-oak-ridge-tss.mail.saic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Merris, Rhian M wrote: > Sounds like not a bad idea. Like you said, we don't get much of a picture > here in the U.S. Cool. I'll search on the net for articles on this topic. If anyone has some links or articles (or could write about what they have seen/heard about the situation there, please mail it to me, and I'll put it up on the web). Special focus will be on the evidence exploring crimes against women by different sides of the conflict and on treatment of rape survivors by their own countrypeople. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Oct 1998 to 11 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've just been talking to my boss, who works on human rights issues. If you want them, Marina, I can get you some email addresses tomorrow. Have to go. >>> Jane Franklin 10/15 11:13 AM >>> I'd contribute some...I'm not sure how much I could spare. And Marina, are you confident in your lawyer? If it's not too intrusive to ask, where are you? There are groups that give legal advice on this kind of thing, if your lawyer's not a specialist in this field. I don't really know all the details on this sort of thing--who hears your case? Is it the INS? If it is, can you find out who the local INS person is? Sometimes they can be pressured. >>> "Merris, Rhian M" 10/15 10:32 AM >>> Madrone, speaking of Marina: > I remain deeply concerned about your status here. Can > > we help? May we help? > > Thank you, that would be great. But i don't really know > how. I've got this lawyer who is supposed to resubmit my > asylum case. If she's any good in it and if she won't dump > me because I cannot pay her, maybe things will work out. > If not-- I don't really know what else to do. So how about a "Marina Legal defense fund"? I'd contribute. Anyone else? Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:40:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 12 Oct 1998 to 13 Oct 1998 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, SMCharnas wrote: > I think men tend to fear that having sex with a woman gives her great power > over them (maybe because men give their own sex drives so much power over > themselves); the idea may be that if a woman has *that* kind of power, that's > already a lot, and the only counter-balance a man has is his superior strength > and ability to protect/punish her. If he has no edge in this respect, then > he *has* no counter-balance, and he is "at her mercy." So it's one or the > other, strength/authority *or* sexuality -- although in many cultures, it's > just the one: sexuality and subjugation, and if you try to show strength, > they destroy you. You are absolutely right! That's why, I think sexist people are more intolerant of women who try to "have it all." it's easier for many to accept a women who's sacrificing at least something -- so they can comfort themselves with the notion that she is already punished for her strength. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: teragram Subject: Re: words that put us in our place In-Reply-To: <61F3509CFECFD111B03700805FBBF0551F7DA5@us-oak-ridge-tss.mail.saic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >My sister and I were talking about exactly that a while back. "You go >girl!" is the closest thing I could think of to "You the Man!". I use 'you go girl!' frequently, both at work and with my karate group - usually when addressing men. It's a hoot to watch the reactions.... hah! *************** "Out of chaos new worlds are born." - Audre Lorde ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:40:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: OT -- Re: [*FSFFU*] Marina defense fund In-Reply-To: <61F3509CFECFD111B03700805FBBF0551F7DA9@us-oak-ridge-tss.mail.saic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just wanted to say -- thank you all for the interest and concern about my life. I appreciate all help you privide me. I'll try to briefly answer the questions about my case that were mentioned here. My lawyer is a feminist and is said to be very good in asylum cases. Her name is Margaret Wong, and she is in Cleveland, OH. I myself live in the area of Oklahoma City, OK. It's pretty far away from Cleveland, but I could not find anyone here who would take my case. Donna Simone, who also lives in Cleveland, told me about Margaret Wong, so I contacted her over the Internet. My main problem right now is that I cannot work full-time and make enough money to pay the fees, embarassing as it might be. On the matters of contacting senators and media, I think anything might help. I have not contacted them yet mainly because I have had so much trouble with local authorities when I tried to sue a state-owned school about sexual harrassment, that I am not sure they would want to help me. I am afraid they might be happy in having me finally go away for good and stop making them look bad (some activists still quote my story with sexual harassment as an example of civil rights violations). Concerning the media, they were the ones who prevented my deportation when the school tried to get me sent home. I am afraid that they would consider me "yesterday news". Generally, Oklahoma is very conservative and is notorious for its bad treatment of women, so I don't know how much support I can count on. besides, i have gotten under too many people's skin with my views, I am afraid. At the same time, it might still be worth a shot contacting public officials. After everything i have been put through in my four years in Oklahoma, i expect very little from people here, to be honest, but I might be wrong. What Jane wrote about immigration support groups in Minneapolis is great. I wish there was something like that here. Unfortunately, in the South the attitude towards immigrants (and foreigners) in general is not very warm. All that stuff about "them coming here taking our jobs", you know. it's not exactly "go back where you came from", but can be pretty close sometimes. I really appreciate your help, everyone. it matters a lot to know that someone cares whether you live or die. if you have any questions about what's going on, feel free to ask. I hope Laura does not mind me taking up the list space. Thank you, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:46:56 -0400 Reply-To: virchick@bostonabcd.org Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Garret Virchick Subject: Aliens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ive been reading with interest the comments made about the Alien series and whether or not it represents good feminist science fiction. One aspect of the plot that has always been of interest to me has been Ripley vs "The Company". It interests me because if I remember right the first Alien movie came out prior to the Reagan years when privatization of governmental agencies and services was not yet with us. The writer chose a woman (Ripley) as the mission leader that opposes "The Company's" directive to bring back the alien at all costs, although she presumably works for "The Company", and a man (Paul Reiser's Character) as the agent of "The Company". Is this a statement of the patriarchal nature of capitalism? Any thoughts? Garret SciFiHigh School Teacher ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:11:40 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG: other representations of gender? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your novel sounds very interesting. How close are you to being done? I'm also a writer-- I just finished my first novel. I'm always interesting in hearing about other writer's with interesting projects. Welcome to the group. --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:19:47 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: feminism, fantasy, sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marina wrote: Why > would it bother you that other feminists wear lipstick? I don't feel > obliged to wear high heels just because "other feminists do", what are we, > a gang? Don't you think that even making such a big deal over the > lifestyle choices is kind of limited, too? You've misunderstood what I was saying. Anyone can wear lipstick, who cares? I don't think wearing lipstick is political. But I do think that the way "new" feminists have been framed and sexualized in the media here in the US is significant. And the co-optation of the Riot Grrrl aesthetic is part of this-- But really it has little to do with what choices women make in their real lives. --Allyson P.S.-- I probably own more lipstick than anyone I know, maybe more than anybody on the list! :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:42:31 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: OT Kosovo, Bosnia Content-Type: text/plain My two cents: I've read extensively in the press of 3 countries (Germany, UK, USA) about the wars of Yugoslav succession, and they seemed to agree that the Bosnian Serbs were the nastiest, followed closely by the Croatians. That is not to say that the Bosnians (who are not just Muslims, by the way) didn't commit plenty of nastiness too. But the organized nastiness of the Serbs seemed to be something special. As for the current conflict, those same press sources agreed that Milosevich pretty much started up the Kosovo conflict unilaterally by revoking the autonomy of that region. He then used the resulting unrest as an excuse to move in heavily-armed police and heavy weapons including helicopter gunships and tanks, ostensibly to combat the UCK (Kosovo Liberation Army) but apparently also with the goal of drying up the UCK's base of support by driving out the ethnic Albanians -- i.e. "ethnically cleansing" them. So is the West justified in threatening force to stop this stuff? I think so. Yes, when this kind of barbarism happens in Asia or Africa there isn't as much of a reaction from the world community, but that seems like no excuse for inaction now. (This may also set a precedent in world law for intervening in internal struggles in sovereign nations, which may be a good thing over all.) I guess there isn't much to say from a feminist topic, except that people like Milosevic are the real sticking point for me when it comes to accepting traditional feminist pacifism. I'll try to keep off the subject from now on, wasn't I just ranting about a book or something? :) Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:56:18 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: feminism, fantasy, sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 14-10-1998 16:08, Jane Franklin said: > Women who claw their way to the top tend to be much like men who do the >same--rich, self-serving, arrogant, and deaf to the needs of actual people. Well, this is not always true. We've just had - in the unfortunately now late governament - some very good women ministers. We've also had men ministers - among them the Prime Minister - who weren't rich, self-serving, arrongant and deaf to the needs of acutal people. Of course it only lasted two years and we also got some bad people in the bunch, but it *is* possible to hold power and be animated by the will to serve. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:51:48 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Sheri S. Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for that pointer! On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:16:44 -0400 Joe Sanders writes: >Friends, > > The September 1998 issue of _Locus_ has an interview with >Sheri S. Tepper. > It's also on their website, www.locusmag.com > >Joe Sutliff Sanders > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:40:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: BDG Silence and other Scott stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >One >interesting thing I remember about the Silence books is that the main >characters have a three-way marriage that apparently never involves >sex, or >at least not with Silence anyway. I don't remember a single sex scene >or >even reference in all the books. There is a brief mention, I think in "Empress of Earth", that the marriage "had become passionate", which arouses far more curiosity than it satisfies! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:12:13 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: words that put us in our place Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mike rightly corrected me. Koko = gorilla. Sorry. Apologize to all primates. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:25:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG: other representations of gender In-Reply-To: <2055432@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allyson, Thanks for asking. It's always interesting stepping into a new group. Are we mostly readers here or a mixture of readers and writers? I have to confess I've mostly been reading mysteries lately because they are short and have such a wide diversity. However, I have been pushing myself recently to find new sf/f writers. Are you writing science fiction or fantasy? I am working on a fantasy series. I figure it will be six or seven books. Book One(about 650 pages)is "finished." I am cleaning up some continuity problems and doing late rewriting to accomodate four genders. I just finished the first draft on Book Two. It's currently about 450 pages. The characters totally went off on a tangent, and I had to wrap it up way short of my projected 600 page count. Because it broke off unexpectly, I now have about four chapters and two thirds of an outline left over for Book Three. The outline for Book Three will probably become Book Four. And because I had originally started the story twenty years in the future, I have big chunks of text that will go into Five, Six, and Seven. I'm hoping to land a three-book contract, so I can shuck my full-time job and devote myself to writing. Right now I'm trying to network my way to a good agent. Either that or win the lottery. . . Rebecca At 04:16 PM 10/15/98 CST, you wrote: >Your novel sounds very interesting. How close are you to being done? >I'm also a writer-- I just finished my first novel. I'm always >interesting in hearing about other writer's with interesting projects. >Welcome to the group. >--Allyson > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:46:01 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: Fake/real violence In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:40 AM 10/15/98 -0500, Marina wrote: >You know, I thought a lot about why people who have very little violence >around them like so much watching it on TV. (..snip..) >When there is too much violence around you, you >don't want to watch it at your spare time. I wonder what makes it so >popular to people whose lives are more or less safe? Is it some kind of >sensory deprivation that makes people seek the thrill of danger eliminated >from their lives? One of the Units I studied during a university course on Media Studies, explored cross-cultural differences in popular Television/film genres/styles in different cultures, and also across age-groups and genders, as well as across different historical periods. For example, - Japan: one of the most popular TV shows was a variety of 'game show' in which contestants allowed themselves to be subjected to physical 'torture', all in the name of 'fun' and to win prizes etc. I still shudder at the scenes of grimaced smiles on the faces of contest winners lying in hospital beds for weeks recovering from their injuries!! - Middle-eastern countries: soap-operas, love-stories and romantic dramas, in a culture which encourages predominantly arranged/facilitated marriages...the most popular story was eternal love triangles....and the epic journeys of star-crossed lovers ... ie: the 'thrill' of watching characters defying parents and social-strictures. - teenage girls and "horror movies" - Freddy Kruger's bloodied claws reaching up between the girl's legs while she is relaxing in a bubble-bath....*shudder*.. but mostly, the best example I remember - was the so-called "Golden Years of Hollywood" - the 1930's - when films were rolled out by the score of glitzy musicals, sugar-and-soap stories by the dozen, and happy-endings with extravagant glorious fan-fares etc Yet the real-life of approximately 75% of the audiences during those years was very much the opposite...((nobody would have paid their pennies to see _They Shoot Horses Don't They?_ in 1935)) Post-WW2 movies based on the war, (apart from blatant propaganda, and 'heroic' tales) ... were often silly light-hearted comedies, musicals etc, particularly in the UK ...minimising or even satirising the horror of the London blitz etc.. whereas by the early 1970's when most people lived secure middle-class lives, realistic tragedies, and 'action' dramas became more popular. ************************* To my mind, its an issue of the human psychological need for "fantasy", as well as a need to indulge or experience the entire range of human emotion. If individuals or cultures, experience violence to a large degree in real-life, then their "need" in leisure/entertainment experience, is for the 'safety' of love, laughter, and warm, fuzzy feelings etc... people in poverty, prefer to watch the stories of the rich, or 'game-shows' which satisfy the need for the 'fantasy' of experiencing what it would be like to be rich and powerful. Refugee children fleeing for their lives with fearful speed in trains or carts or on their own feet etc ... abhor the 'thrill' of amusement park rides and roller-coasters. As a teenager, my family fostered a pair of 10 year-olds who had been orphaned and had spent nearly a year as street-rats in Beirut during the war there. They could not understand why any kid their age would willingly get on a roller-coaster ride - let alone enjoy the experience, nor could they understand why other kids enjoyed cartoon violence like RoadRunner. Yet these 2 kids adored TV shows like -My Three Sons- , and thought Doris Day was the Mother Goddess incarnate:) The Japanese with their love of caricatured, highly-controlled but realistic violence, possibly reflects that in real-life their language and culture has rigid rules of non-aggressive and non-offensive social interaction, as many other cultures also do. In private entertainment they can indulge in the 'thrill' of briefly 'living' the role of victim/aggressor precisely because experiencing these roles in reality is rare. Similarly with teenage girls within the 'safety' of their peer-groups or gaggles of girlfriends in safe, middle-class leafy neighbourhoods and shopping malls, are 'thrilled' by watching Horror movies. After a childhood of watching American shows full of high-speed car-chases, and constant jokes about risking death on the freeways, I was quite surprised to discover when driving around the USA at the general courtesy, manners and easy-going average American drivers. Despite the USA having the highest death-rate from fire-arms, it has one of the lowest from car accidents? Whereas in Europe, eg Italy and Spain - where their TV/film rarely show scenes of car-chases and dangerous driving, their 'reality' is car-chases and dangerous driving!! I would even suspect that in ancient times, when humanity often lived 'on the edge' of survival, ie: during the bad times..the stories/dances/entertainment around the camp-fires were happy and full of Gods/Goddesses bestowing riches and favours. When you have had a hard, fearful and anxious day, week, or life-time - you want to relax in positive, loving fantasies. During good times however, when most were fed and housed adequately - the stories would have changed to heroic battles, and vengeful Gods/Goddesses who enacted cruelty on the people, and 'ghost stories' to scare the children so they could experience the adrenalin rush of 'fear'....but in 'safety'. In recent years in the West - there has been an upsurge of popularity of 'reality TV' - police and medical - still faked and edited etc, but allows the audience to experience the emotions surrounding violence, fear, and disease, or emergency - precisely those emotions, which they experience the least in their real day-to-day lives. On the opposite side of the coin, in countries/cultures which are war-torn, civil violence-prone and/or poverty-stricken, the entertainment industry is focussed on happy fantasies eg: in India - the most prolific movie-making country in the world, produces mostly films and entertainment full of music, dancing, humour, smiling characters with all conflicts resolved in the inevitable happy endings. Similarly, in Great Depression USA and UK - people flocked in droves and spent their last nickels to see extravagantly dressed actors and actresses, enjoying palatial life-styles. So why are shows like _South Park_ so popular? Particularly amongst children and young adults? I suspect, at least in part, because the most popular characters are mean and nasty, (psychologically violent, more than physically violent) and the plots are blatantly absurd... allowing the audience to experience emotions they can't indulge in, in real-life. Similar to audience participation in 19th century vaudeville staged melodramas, where you could freely hate the villain and cheer the hero. These days, with improvements in technology and technique, we can make our emotional fantasies more complicated and realistic, if not real. Perhaps, it is part of the human condition, the desire to experience all of life's ups and downs? If it isnt a part of our real-lives, do we seek to experience it anyway in our entertainment? To bring this back to topic... I am reminded of earlier discussion on this list concerning science-fiction/fantasy utopias. Some members were disappointed with _Alien Influences_ because the women characters weren't 'heroic' or 'powerful', and none of the characters really overcame their childhood abuse experiences. That is close to reality. Some commented about being bored by _Ammonite_ because there didn't appear to be much 'action'. Many commented that they felt the reason _Mists of Avalon_ was so popular with women readers, was because of the number of 'powerful' women characters. Similarly with the TV show, _Xena_ . Stories which mirror reality too closely, may be intellectually interesting, but are rarely entertaining or emotionally involving for the reader/audience. Women as a class, in reality, are generally powerless - so, in entertainment and leisure, we can indulge in fantasy-feelings of 'power' - precisely those emotions we experience the least in real-life. Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:45:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 12 Oct 1998 to 1 In-Reply-To: <2054141@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Anthea wrote: >>I think I mentioned it here before, but I read about and ancient custom >>that had existed in Albania. There, a woman was allowed to drink, smoke, >>ride horses and generally participate in "male" activities with one single >>condition -- they had to remain virgins for life. This is very interesting. However, after reading _Changing Ones, Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America_ I am wondering if Durham, the author of _High Albania_ picked up all the nuances. Among Native American tribes that recognized third and fourth genders (and a number of them did!), members of an alterate gender may or may not have crossdressed but they did the work associated with their assigned gender and they frequently took mates of the same sex. Because they were of the same physical sex but of different genders, their people did not consider the relationship homosexual and may have reported--truthfully--that there were no homosexual relationships in the community when questioned by ethnographers. Likewise, lady ethnographers in the early 20th century, God bless them for their curiosity and their willingness to learn, might well be reluctant to record what appeared to be native perversity. Especially when they liked the people they were observing. So when I read that the women remained virgins, a flag immediately goes up. REALLY? MAYBE? GOT DATA? >>Suzy MC: >Ah, yes, the Albanian virgin -- very apposite, in fact, since one of the >male activities was participating in deadly feuds. I read about this in >a book called HIGH ALBANIA, about that country around the years of the Great War, >> >>So all those taboos for >>women about being strong in the end are not about their ability to nurture or bear children. It's all about sex. She can do anything men do, if she gives up that. Because one thing macho men cannot bear is the idea that they (or any man) can be sexually involved with a woman who can kick their butt. If she does not have sex, she is not really a woman, and then it's OK. The assumption here seems to be that the woman remains virginal becasue the man doesn't want her. What about the possibility that the woman crosses over and takes up manly pursuits because she's not wild about being sexually involved with a sweaty, hairy, beer-chugging guy? The original concept "virginal" was "set apart," "self-contained," perhaps even "consecrated." The virgin goddesses of Greek mythology are not portrayed as two-baggers. Gay/lesbian claim that 10% or 7% or 5% of us are genetically homosexual--or two-spirited, to use the curent Native American term. Of that number, many could be considered members of an alternate gender. So it would be of great benefit to small societies like the Albanians if there was a recognized place for each member of the group. Only mass societies like ours can afford to waste their human resources. Sigh. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:12:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia Comments: cc: m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Oct 98, at 14:42, Daniel Krashin wrote: > My two cents: I've read extensively in the press of 3 countries > (Germany, UK, USA) about the wars of Yugoslav succession, and > they seemed to agree that the Bosnian Serbs were the nastiest, > followed closely by the Croatians. That is not to say that the > Bosnians (who are not just Muslims, by the way) didn't commit > plenty of nastiness too. But the organized nastiness of the > Serbs seemed to be something special. Things are never so clear-cut as CNN or the rest of the Western press tries to make them. I suggest you look at the reaction of people in Eastern Europe or even some Greeks. Perhaps in the context of the war (which the Bosnians initially lost badly) they simply didn't have time to 'organise' in the same way the Serbs did. When they did have time (as at the Celibici camp), they were as bad as the Serbs. The 10th Mountain Brigade - led by Musan Topalovic ('Caco' who was later murdered as part of the coverup) - were murderers and serial rapists not only of Serb and Croat women, but of Muslim women who had been previously raped by the Serbs. Timur Numic, now a big shot in Izetbegovic's Party of Democratic Action but then a member of the 10th, was notorious amongst journalists for his photo-album of Serbs (men and women) killed in what he used to call "interesting ways". Perhaps you should read the Russian, Czech or Slovakian papers instead of just your own. Here in Moscow, for example, the sincerely held belief of many Russians is that their fellow Slavs are going to be slaughtered to divert attention from the Clinton-Lewinsky affair. Polish friends of ours living here though are convinced the US is going to do what it did at Yalta - but this time condemning millions of Europeans to life under Islamic fundamentalist domination. It may seem foolish to you, but eastern Europeans think much the same of your own uncritical acceptance of "obviously prejudiced" news reports. > I guess there isn't much to say from a feminist topic, except that > people like Milosevic are the real sticking point for me when it > comes to accepting traditional feminist pacifism. It is a feminist topic because which ever way it goes, women are going to suffer. If Milosevic and his ilk win, ethnic Albanians will suffer. If the separatists win, it will be tantamount to re-introducing Muslim fundamentalism with horrific results for women. It will in fact, be nothing more than "Taliban in Europe" as a headline in one of the papers here reported. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _______________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:45:42 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Yvonne Rowse Subject: Marina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Count me in though as a UK citizen I'm not sure that I can affect US stuff. I'd certainly contribute to a fund. Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:06:13 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> You know, I don't really care about Milosevic or whatever is awaiting him. >> For what I see, Serbs have been pretty much doomed as a nation as soon >> as US selected them as the Bad Guys, and there is nothing I can do >> about that. But even if Milosevic is the incarnation of Devil himself, >> and his people are the evil inhuman force they are pictured as (all of >> them, wholesale -- just like in a comic book) does it make it OK to rape >> and torture Serbian woman? And if not, how come no one is protesting >> _that_? I'll be long about this, but it is central in my life and I promise not to get back to the subject, so bear with me. I think you are oversimplifying. The USA did not select the Serbs as the bad guys. As a matter of fact, they went to great lengths to refuse the facts that were pretty clear to everybody looking at Bosnia, and this was that there were the aggressors - Croatia and Serbia - and people who were subjected to aggression. The fact that these people (who were *not* all muslim: there were, for example, 30.000 serbs in Sarajevo fighting against the siege) were not sainted does not mean that they were any less the victims of an aggression. I don't know how Serbs are pictured in USA but I don't need to picture them at all: I know them. They are just accross the sea. A lot of them live in Italy, among them the boyfrined of a friend of mine. They are not evil people. They are people who have been manipulated and lied to for a long time; they have been literally robbed by their own governament - Milosevic among them - and they have bought pack and parcel a nice fable of tradition, nationalism and racial hate. Their hate has been carefully cultivated and husbanded and then used. They have paid their own price for this, but it was never as high as the one paid by the people of Srebrenica. Yesterday there was a talk shaw about Kosovo, and a lot of Italian Serbs were present. When showed the corpes of Srebrenica, their argument was not that it hadn't happened or that muslim people had done something comparable (that would have been difficult) but that they, the Serbs, had won the decisive battle that saved Europe from the Turks - in the 14th century. I kid you not. That was their *only* argument. Understand me: I don't think they are guilty or despicable for this. I just think they live by a set of values that would have been normal in the Middle Ages but that makes for an intolerant behaviour now. The battle was not between ethnic groups. That is the fable that was sold to most of interested ears in the West and that lost Bosnia. Tribal war, everybody equally to blame, therefore no-one to blame, let them kill themselves, the beasts. The battle was between democracy and fascism. And it was lost. And it was lost not only in Sarajevo, but in Croatia where people are scared to talk about Tudjman and ethnic minorities are persecuted, be they bosnina, albanese or serbs, in Serbia where people talk seriously of Great Serbia and a battle won five centuries ago to justify burning albanese villages. The general who defended Sarajevo through all of the siege was particularly hated by the besieging forces because he was a cultured, urban man. He was a Serb. He was forced out the Army not by the siege, but by the peace, because the peace forced what the agressors wanted and the people of Sarajevo tried so desperately, so pathetically, to resist against: ethnic segregation. In Italy there is a man, who will probably become the director of the main Italian daily, who maintains that if Jews were so persecuted and hounded through all of their long history, they must have been somehow to blame. Twenty centuries of hate can't be groundless, he says. (This in a book titled "Letter to a Jewish friend" that lead people to speculate about what he'd say to his enemies.) Sometimes it seems to me that people are eager to believe in this kind of reasoning. It's simple and refreshing. Most people think something equally simple and refreshing about Yugolsavia. They're all beasts, they've been killing each other for centuries, let them be. Don't bother intervening. The view that the American Governament or anybody else pictured the Serbs as bad guys because they were lusting to drop bombs on them is as far from the truth as can be. *Nobody* wanted to intervene in Yugoslavia. People in Sarajevo used to joke that the only way to escape the siege was digging... they might have struck oil. The UN did not even make the faint effort to issue guns to the troops they sent to "defend" the safe-aread (Srebrenica, Zepa, Gorazde and so on). And anyway, even when they were issued weapons, they could use them only if *their* own life was in danger, and not to defend the people they were ostensibly there to defend. Of course, the "safe-areas" had to be demilitarized, so even the few weapons the people there had managed to get hold of were taken away. And, for you feminist view of the issue, Marina, please bear in mind that what lost, and lost clamorously, in Bosnia was not Izetbegovic or the so-called Muslim Bosnia, but Western values - democracy, secular governament, peaceful cohexistence of people of different ethnical origins and religion, respect for human rights, including those of women. The West left the civil, urbanized, tolerant, democratic people of Sarajevo to die and preferred appeasing the ancestral rural traditional religious mystique of ground and blood of people like Milosevic, Karazic, Arkan and Tudjman. If you see in fundamentalist muslims who reject their women when they've been raped the only or the principal evil of this story, I think you are being mislead. The antidote against fundamentalism and barbarianism is the kind of civilized life that was trampled by everybody in the Bosnian war, chiefly by the western appeasers. It's not that I don't consider this kind of things disgusting and sick. It's that I can't think that a man that will reject his wife or daughter because she's been raped loses all his rights, and we should not care if he's killed or deported or tortured or any such thing. It's that I think the traditional culture that demands such behaviour stood a better chance to be defeated if Bosnia had remained a mixed-culture nation, without ethnical segregation, if hate hadn't been so carefully cultivated, if muslims hadn't been given ample reason to think that there is Us and Them in the world, and Them aren't muslim, and Them either are killing and torturing you and burning your house preferably with you in it, or don't give a damn. The only nation that gave weapons to the mostly defenceless Bosnians was Iran, and I really can't blame them if they thought they were their only friends - women included. Maas reports that women started wearing head-scarf toward the end of the war, something that was almost unheard of in Bosnia before the war. The Serbs have been brainwashed. Maas talked with a Serbian journalist and asked "for the secret behind Milosevic brainwashing success: 'You must imagine a United States with every little TV station everywhere taking exactely the same editorial line - a line dictated bu David Duke. You too would have war in five years.'" There are bad guys in this story but they are not "the Serbs".I happen to think that Milosevic is one of them. I happen to think that most of Western leaders whose idea for negotiation was convincing the Bosnian that keeping their own precious territory was foolish and irresponsible and that they were to blame if Karadzic's troops went on killing them, were also among the bad guys. I think that all those people who turned off their television sets and turned the pages of their papers not to read distasteful things about "those beasts" were among the bad guys. I even think I am among the bad guys, because I knew what was happening - I can't claim, like people did in Germany about the camps, that I didn't know - but I was too much of a coward to take up a gun and go. On the day Srebrenica fell I was at a party. I kept telling people that while we were dancing and having fun, in that very instant, people's throat were being cut not five hour's drive from there. I cried. People were embarrassed. I got drunk. But there must have been something more I could have done, and that I didn't. So this has become my Patna. I find it my moral duty to try and shake people out of the simple truths sold by the news on the hour and our tendency not to believe in evil. I tell them to read about the Bosnian war, because it's not so simple as it looks and it has a lesson to impart. I point them toward Maas' book - if they are English-speaking - or Rumiz's if they are Italian. Both are, I think, widely available. I doubt that many people do read them. Therefore, I quote. This is the conclusion Maas draws in his book. "I want to explain that appeasement does not work. [...] Clinton and his counterparts in Western Europe generally had their way against the "laptop bombardiers". The did nothing for more than three years and watched as more than 200.000 people were killed. It took a few weeks of bombing in the late summer of 1995 to let the Serbs know that there was, surprisingly, a limit to the forbearance of our leaders, that they really should settle for half of Bosnia, which they did. Our leaders could have demanded far more in the name of justice, could have done far more in the name of justice, but chose not to. In their desire to stop the war on terms acceptable to Milosevic, they abandoned their promises never to rewar ethnic cleansing. They appeased. The also overlooked an important lesson of history. Peace is not guaranteed by a thick treaty or enforcement troops: it is guaranteed by justice. "I have only a few words left in me about the tragedy of Bosnia. At the end of 1994, when everyone involved in the Balkan crisis knew that Bosnia was being left to twist in the wind, an unusual death notice appeared in The New York Times. Bordered in traditional black, and signed by more than seventy members of the Western world's political and cultural elite, it stated the following: IN MEMORIAM - Our committments, principles, and moral values - died: Bosnia, 1994, on the occasion of the 1.000th day of the siege of Sarajevo." (Love thy neighbor, Peter Maas, pg. 272) Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:00:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Aliens Comments: To: Garret Virchick In-Reply-To: <36265F40.2BF9@bostonabcd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I dont necessarily think that because she had problems with a corporation deciding to keep a deadly monster alive means that she was against capitalism. I think she decided for herself that she was going to stop a corporation deciding the fate of humanity. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Garret Virchick wrote: > Ive been reading with interest the comments made about the Alien series > and whether or not it represents good feminist science fiction. One > aspect of the plot that has always been of interest to me has been > Ripley vs "The Company". It interests me because if I remember right the > first Alien movie came out prior to the Reagan years when privatization > of governmental agencies and services was not yet with us. The writer > chose a woman (Ripley) as the mission leader that opposes "The > Company's" directive to bring back the alien at all costs, although she > presumably works for "The Company", and a man (Paul Reiser's Character) > as the agent of "The Company". Is this a statement of the patriarchal > nature of capitalism? Any thoughts? > > Garret > SciFiHigh School Teacher > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: OT -- Re: [*FSFFU*] Marina defense fund Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Marina, I'm glad to hear that you have a reliable lawyer, although I'm sorry she's in Cleveland and it's far away. As I wrote yesterday, I talked to my boss, who works on human rights issues. She recommended that if you need advice, Marina, you e-mail the University of Minnesota Center for Human Rights (humanrts@gold.tc.umn.edu) or that you email direct to the co-chair, David Weissbrodt (weiss001@maroon.tc.umn.edu). She says that he is a nice man and very sympathetic. She also says that they have a large library. If you, like me, feel funny about emailing total strangers to ask for something, you could say that he was recommended by Dr. Sonia Patten in the Family Practice Department at the University, since they know each other. Now, I've been trying to strategize about this business of writing to senators. I'd suggest that those of us on the list who wnat to and are US citizens write letters by hand (it's so easy to send email to political figures that it doesn't always count for as much) to the senators for OK and to the Rep for Marina's district. (Marina, do you know who this is? Or your district number?) I'd also suggest that when we write these letters we download and include some articles on conditions in Tadjikistan. Later on we may want to telephone their offices or fax them. (I'm not trying to be controlling here, or claiming that my ideas are the best ones, I'm just throwing some ideas out about how this kind of thing might be done. I have done pressure campaign type stuff before, though, so I'm not totally guessing. Please feel totally free to improve my ideas.) Marina, if people are going to write these letters, I'm wondering if you could give us your last name and a few dates about how long you've been here. Also, although I know you posted it, my computer had a meltdown, and I no longer remember all the details of how you came to the US. Your family was resettled in Tajikistan from Russia, right? On the limited information that I gave my boss, she said that it sounded like ethnic Russians in Tajikistan were a repressed minority and that angle might be worth playing. Next question. Is there some kind of left wing type group in Oklahoma City? My boss suggested Amnesty International. You might want to check at the school. If there were some folks you felt comfortable working with, they might be able to write more letters and so on. Later today I'll be talking to my friend the organizer for CISPES. I'll try to get some tips on media stuff from her. How did you get media attention the last time? And I'll see if I can get the names and addresses for the Senators and post them later. Also, I still think talking to the INS would be worth while, if we can figure out how to do it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:11:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: feminism, fantasy, sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Of course, you're not talking about the United States....straight downhill from FDR, if you ask me. :) >>> Elethiomel 10/15 4:56 PM >>> At 14-10-1998 16:08, Jane Franklin said: > Women who claw their way to the top tend to be much like men who do the >same--rich, self-serving, arrogant, and deaf to the needs of actual people. Well, this is not always true. We've just had - in the unfortunately now late governament - some very good women ministers. We've also had men ministers - among them the Prime Minister - who weren't rich, self-serving, arrongant and deaf to the needs of acutal people. Of course it only lasted two years and we also got some bad people in the bunch, but it *is* possible to hold power and be animated by the will to serve. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:21:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Oklahoma Senators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Their addresses are James M. Inhofe 453 Russell Senate Office Building Washington, D.C. 20510-3603 (tel) 202-224-4721 and Don Nickles 133 Hart Senate Office Building Washington, D.C. 20510 202-224-5754 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:22:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This was a very fine post (the lengthy one from Elethiomel about Bosnia). To pick a very small bone, though, I wouldn't really like to say that "Western values" lost in Sarajevo, because then one has the difficult task of pointing to a shining example of Western values in action as a major force unique to the West. The funny thing is, I'm pro-intervention in Kosovo. Not the kind of intervention we'll get--airstrikes, possibly the stupidest (though cheapest) form of war--but troops and lots of humanitarian aid for everyone might help. I do all these left politics, and we just had this big "Hands off Kosovo" demonstration, to which I didn't go. Actually, I guess I'm one of the bad guys, because I've only explained why I didn't go to a few people. I know that explaining it to most of my left friends would get me a reputation as politically unreliable. The accepted line here is that any official US action is bad, because American motives are always bad. (Which I believe to be true) But that doesn't mean that the objective results of what we do is always totally bad. And I keep thinking of Czechoslovakia being just handed over to Hitler, and of the Jewish people who begged FDR to bomb the camps during WWII, on the theory that while it would kill the people there, at least the camps would be shut down. You can't abandon people. I didn't understand Bosnia while it was going on and I don't really know what I can do right now. If I said anything about being pro-intervention, even to my housemates, there'd be a lot of gossip about me. There already is a little, because a lot of the left-wing people here are very into Maoist thought, and I've been to China and am appalled by this. (The people themselves are very nice, and some of the hardest working activists I've ever met. And they do good work. It's just that I think they're a little naive about Mao. I was at one point too.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:44:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually, one of the things I've read about the Bosnia thing is that the World Bank austerity policies had a lot to do with destabilizing the country and making it easy for wars to start. Speaking as an American, I'm not in favor of bombing anyone. I'm not really in favor of killing anyone, either, especially since everything just seems to have collapsed. But surely there's something that can be done to stabilize things (maybe something totally non-military) Winter's coming on. Oh, and in my previous post I DIDN"T mean to compare anyone in this whole mess with Hitler. I was just thinking of the horror of the Czechs just being sacrificed and knowing it was happening. Not all Americans are total yahoos. I'd like to make a large apology for the many dumb things my country does--I oppose them when I can, as do some of my fellow citizens. While I'm at it I apologize for our awful manners and ugly clothes. And our imperialism, and all the shameful things we do. We are a bully of a country, full of ignorant, complacent people. I don't think it's our job to be the world's policeman, and I think we do only intervene in our own interests. I don't think American policy is motivated by moral considerations. I just hate the idea that when something horrible happens somewhere else you just have to let it happen and happen and happen, because you're afraid of your own motives if you act. Also, in terms of reading newspapers, reading some of the left press is a helpful corrective to standard US and British. We here even get a British left-ish paper, the New Something or Other. Also, the academic and special interest press is good--any academic library will get things like AmericasWatch and NACLA, which are at least written neither for public consumption nor for politicians. When I have time, I also read the UN press releases because while they're hardly left wing, there's an internationalism to them that's rare in US journalism. It's best to read a lot of different left papers at first because some of them have such a party line that their accuracy is a little damaged. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:55:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Paul Lamothe Subject: Re: Koko Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for the Koko quotes. My personal favourite is when Koko was shown a photographic self-portrait she signed "Koko Love Camera." cheers paul > My favorite phrase from Koko described radishes, which she DIDN'T LIKE: Cry > Hurt Food. It still makes me laugh. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:38:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Burton Subject: Re: Fake/real violence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's called "catharsis" and has been the basis of drama since classical Greece. The entire basis of Greek theater, in fact, was that a comedy or drama must have as its goal the relief of those emotions that daily society did not permit one to express. Unlike many modern societies, which like to pretend we've all gotten far too civilized to have all those nasty negative emotions, the Greeks knew that we are all great bundles of contradiction: love and hate, fear and courage, joy and pain. If we have harmless ways of releasing the negative emotions, like drama and athletics, we will be better able to express the positive, preferred ones. Now, of course, we say that all that violence causes *more* violence, overlooking the fact that the people who act out fantasy violence have serious problems to begin with. With that in mind, it isn't surprising that each individual or culture enjoys the particular brand of fantasy that most expresses what they can't. The child who lives with violence needs a quiet home and a loving family. The one who already has that needs drama that expresses for him or her those unpermitted thoughts and behaviors. As for the Japanese fixation on violent game shows -- sounds a lot like *The Running Man*, doesn't it. Lisa Xanadu Scriveners http://members.tripod.com/~Borogrove/editor.html Pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/16062745 ICQ SFF Writers' Group http://groups.icq.com/group.asp?no=409617 The Dance of Light and Magic http://www.delphi.com/Castle_of_Light -----Original Message----- From: Julieanne * >To my mind, its an issue of the human psychological need for "fantasy", as >well as a need to indulge or experience the entire range of human emotion. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:50:33 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 10 Oct 1998 to 11 Oct 1998 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi there. I am geminiwalker, I lurk mostly because I haven't read (yet) most of the fascinating authors you all have been talking about, but I thought this question was really interesting, and since I watch Lifetime a lot and enjoy most of the movies, I thought I would share my point of view. For awhile I was quite taken by the movies, especially when they were based on true stories, because they were educational. They raised awareness of issues, and honored women who made a difference by, for example, suing the police and winning when they were not protected from their batterer (The Tracy Thurber Story). Or the one about the little girl who is so angry that she is a danger to her family (Child of Rage) and the thinking behind the suggested therapy that exists to heal her. The movie "I Know My First Name is Stephen" is an important story about the kidnapping and molestation over many years of a young boy by a man who lived in many neighborhoods in many states for many years with nobody being the wiser. It is important for us to realize that these things happen and that we can't afford to look the other way. I guess that's my point. There are stories (like the Danielle Steele movies, I guess) where the violence and sex is prurient because I don't think they teach us anything, but that is my opinion and I know that there are women who like those things and that's a judgement call. I wouldn't have them taken off the air. I don't think they are as harmful as say, James Bond movies and the images of women that they portray. But I digress. I realize to a great extent movies like "Overkill: The Story of Eileen Wuornos" is old, and we have seen so many of these movies that we think we know it already and get over it. Maybe that's not what you are saying, but that may be the way some people are feeling. Not me. For many other people, it is new stuff, for others it is history, but it is important history that must never, never be forgotten. It continues to go on, it grows, it gets bigger, and the only thing to do if a person is sick of hearing about it is to do something to make it go away. Not the movies, not the stories, but the need to tell them, the reason we have to. To tell them and tell them and tell them until they just don't happen anymore. It took us a long, long time to get to the point where we could even tell these stories. It's going to take a lot longer before the need to tell them goes away. Until then, I can listen. I can listen as long as it takes. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net > In a message dated 10/14/98 2:23:03 AM, Madrone wrote: > > <> > > I've been thinking about this in connection with the rape/violence/women vs > men stuff that is rampant on Lifetime TV -- the Channel for Women. Struck me > two ways: > 1) showing the violence is "educational." Yeah yeah, we all know about it, > but it is so pervasive on this channel at least, that there may be some women > who learn that they are not alone. and > 2) does this violence against women de-sensitize us the way male rip 'em > movies seems to be doing. > > I'm still thinking about this. But I throw it out for debate. On the one > hand exposing the extent of violence against women is a good thing, but the > fct that it is media dramatized makes me uncomfortable. > > Any thoughts? > > lightly, > phoebe > zozie@aol.com > > Join "Outsiders" (http://Outsiders.listbot.com) the mailist For Those Who Walk Alone... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:50:33 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Subject: Re: Cyberculture In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981015112904.006c7e60@hemlock.newcastle.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Another good question. Hey, this is fun! Cyberculture has fascinated me since I first heard about it, and it was years before I could actually be in a position to dip my toe into it. At first, it was terribly painful, because I kept finding myself, as a feminist, embroiled in one flame war after another. "What is this," I thought, I way to keep women silent?" Point one. I learned to weave my way through those invested in keeping women silent. My motivation was not to take those people on, wasting my energy when I knew I was not going to change their minds. I wanted to connect with likeminded individuals in order to move forward with my thinking, in order as a group to move forward, in an evolutionary sort of way. Point two. I can't get enough of Cyberculture. I have subscribed to so many email lists at different times no one else can keep up with me. At first I avoided newsgroups because there tend to me more flame wars there, but I learned that there are some newsgroups where flame wars do not necessarily clutter up the landscape and one can have a decent conversation. There are even newsgroups and email lists where flame wars do happen, but the trick is not to give them energy. Like fire, flame wars need oxygen to breathe, and if you don't take the bait, they don't take up the bandwidth. Point three. I was quite addicted to a certain chat room for awhile, and still stop in there from time to time. I learned new things about how to avoid ... I forget what we call them, it's been so long ... but those individuals who come in to make trouble. It was a great chat room where it was a simple matter of becoming aware that someone was there to make trouble, and putting that individuals on ignore. Without the reaction they wanted, (Snert, that's it!) the Snert would go away before very long at all. Point four. All of this has helped me to deal with people better IRT, BTW. Lately I've been playing a lot of Acrophobia on bezerk.com. It's a fun game for people who like to play with words, and you get to chat with the other players while you play. Great for those who like to multi-task, and it's challenging and fun at the same time. And, it has a Culture all its own. I have learned to have fun without getting too serious. Point five. I have learned that all definitions in Cyberculture are fluid. At first I looked for "lesbian-only" and "women-only" lists, and discovered not only is gender very fluid, but women in the chat room could have very "boy" energy when they expressed themselves that I still cannot quite explain or comprehend ... but they were kewl, and I liked them. And this was a lesbian chat room, but it did not exclude men if they were respectful and friendly. I learned that could happen. Point six. I also know that there are aspects of Cyberculture that are dangerous, hurtful and painful. There is pornography and there are people who are out to take advantage of you just like there are in real life. There are more choices in Cyberculture than anyone would have ever thought possible. I learned to make those choices consciously, and to take responsibility for the choices I made. Though at one time I would have thought to remove or eliminate those web sites that I thought were of evil intent, today I would not do so. I have become more aware than ever of what free speech means as a result of the Internet, and I think it is much, much too valuable a tool in terms of seeing evil for what it is and confronting it to ever, ever dilute it in any way. To get in an argument with a batterer in such a way that you actually get to see how he really thinks is an amazing thing, and makes you more aware of what we are up against. And it is so easy to killfile, delete, or put someone on ignore or sort them into a folder that is saved for those who take up more energy than they are worth that they can sputter all they want to, and it need not trouble you. It is more important that individuals be able to access the information they need to about rape, homosexuality, AIDS, child sexual assault, or whatever, than to keep it silenced. In fact, what I am finding is that those who are used to having all the power get very, very intimidated when the Internet is introduced to the workplace, and they try very, very hard to control who says what and where it goes, especially when they are ignorant of the dynamics of Cyberculture and they are used to having that control in the office. It's gone now, it's all gone. People can say whatever they need to say to whoever they want to say it to, and as long as they are willing to take responsibility for it, it's their ball game. We can't be silenced anymore! Point seven. The reason that is so important is because there is very, very important information out there that we would never have access to if it were not for Cyberculture. One of the most glaring examples of that is the mis-information about AIDS that keeps showing up in everything I read because it is based on mainstream thinking that is basically, at this point a lie and a cover-up. Without the Internet, no one would know that. Because of the Internet, some people do. So, if you are planning to do any writing in the near future, particularly futuristic science fiction writing, I would check out this web site: http://www.virusmyth.com/ If Sheri Tepper had, she might not have made the glaring error she did in Gibbon's Decline and Fall that utilized AIDS as a factor in the extinction of certain parts of the population. In time, her book is going to lose its value for that very reason, unless it comes out in a revised version. I find that very sad. But because of the Internet, I know there is hope. Point eight. Thanks for asking this question. I've been wanting to talk to someone about these things for a long time, but nobody could understand my point about Cyberculture. I was a community organizer for many years, and it was easy for me to see the Internet as one, great big amazing community. Nobody I talked to did, though. They didn't spend as much time out here as I do. I guess you do. Glad to meet you! ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net > Thoughts on Cyberculture. > What is it? What effect does it have on society? (especially women)? > > ~*If you're not living on the edge, > you're taking up too much space.*~ > > Join "Outsiders" (http://Outsiders.listbot.com) the mailist For Those Who Walk Alone... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:50:33 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Subject: Re: Fake/real violence In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I don't like the "Cops" shows on TV because the bad guys are always bad and the cops are always "good" and that's not realistic, nor does it teach anyone anything. It does, I think, contribute to a lot of stereotypes, particularly stereotypes that cops are rather fond of. On the other hand, America's Most Wanted, on Fox TV, is an incredible show because it has created a community of crime victims who work together to bring criminals, primarily murderers, to justice. Before John Walsh started doing his work, a lot of tools available to victims did not exist. They certainly did not exist for him when he was looking for his son, Adam. He is an incredible example of someone taking his pain and his anger and using it to make the world a little better. I hope that show stays on forever ... or as long as we need it. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net > You know, I thought a lot about why people who have very little violence > around them like so much watching it on TV. I mean, in my country no one > would want to watch something like Cops, or hear people on the TV news > describing in detail who got shot, raped, robbed, and killed in a car > accident over the past few hours. When you know that something bad can > happen to you at any moment, you don't want to see it on TV, hear about > it, or think about it. When there is too much violence around you, you > don't want to watch it at your spare time. I wonder what makes it so > popular to people whose lives are more or less safe? Is it some kind of > sensory deprivation that makes people seek the thrill of danger eliminated > from their lives? > > I've heard once in some learning program that cows like > to hang out by railroad tracks because of the sensory deprivation -- to > feed their atavistic hunger for strong emotions left over from the days > when they had to run from predators (since a train is huge, loud, and > makes the ground shake, it gives them "a healthy dose" of thrill). > > Just a thought. > > Marina > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > > Join "Outsiders" (http://Outsiders.listbot.com) the mailist For Those Who Walk Alone... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:27:18 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG: other representations of gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your project sounds very interesting and ambitious-- I'm having trouble starting my second novel-- I can't imagine writing a trilogy! I, too am trying to find a good agent. It will be difficult, I think, because my novel is kind of genre-bending. It's a quasi-historical novel set during the bubonic plague, a revisionist history of St. Catherine of Siena's life. I don't know if there are other writer's on the list, as I am kind of new to the list myself. It would be interesting to hear about the work of other writers on the list if there are some. --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:36:20 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Critique of "The Ugly Princess" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lisa, As is usual with critiques, please take what is useful and discard the rest. I read your story several times over several days. Each time, I was still drawn in by your first sentence. Short and engaging, it draws the reader into the story to find out what this "truth" is. It is an effortless, yet well constructed beginning. Sentence 1 of paragraph 2: groaning board. It was unfamiliar to me and I needed to stop and think what such a thing might be. From the rest of the sentence, I figured it had to mean a heavily loaded table, but somehow that was not obvious in the first read. Overall, your story is very entertaining and tightly woven. I found no obvious inconsistencies in tense. The tone is one of someone making just a little fun of themselves. . .(ex: line 1 of paragraph 4: "as servants solemnly mopped gravy from the king's plum-hued visage). I found your message regarding the relativity of beauty to be clear. Is this what the males in your on-line critique group did not "get?" One thing I had trouble making sense of Allura's expressed motivation for choosing her "ladies." "Everyone else favors the pretty ones and I think it's unjust," she explains to her groom. I know that she was comparing herself and the others to the standard of beauty of her High Troll caretakers. But, who are these "pretty ones" Allura sees being favored in her new home by "everyone else?" I doubt that those who were lovely by Allura's standards would be favored by anyone around her. If "everyone else" means the High Trolls, I did not receive that in the passage. The Queen's great beauty by that kingdom's standards did not bother me. One thing: I don't know the color of clover honey. . .I kept coming up with a green to mix with the "roses." I found the sentence before the last one a bit clumsy compared to the standard of writing throughout the story ("He stared, unable to pull his eyes from one exquisite feature without their falling on another.) The first time through, "their falling" seemed to be associated with the queen's exquisite features, and I envisioned suddenly her features falling together somehow. . . only for a micro-second, but long enough to be disrupted from the story's flow. While you have maintained the fairy tale format well in this story, I feel that it is more sophisticated and contains a more complex vocabulary than most early teenagers will appreciate. The message is an excellent one for the 10-16 year old market, but your story itself may actually be more appropriate for adults, who may more likely understand the word play, humor and twist of this clever fairy tale. I cannot speak for the entire market. My experience is with the teens who visit the library where I work in Teen Services. I realize that teen readers outside of California may well prefer more sophisticated writing than those I serve. My high school in a farm town in Michigan was light-years ahead scholastically of the one I attended in California during my senior year. Have you selected magazines to whom you are planning to submit this story? As a plug for your local library, they may have a teen or young adult magazine section you may peruse to inexpensively explore options. It's so expensive to purchase samples. I hope I have made it clear that I enjoyed reading "The Ugly Princess." If I haven't, I did. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to comment on your work. I hope that despite the lack of depth, something useful may be included in my comments. I wish you great success in writing and publishing. May writing always be fun for you! Lindy > Elizabeth Burton wrote: > > I'm a newcomer to this list with a special request (which I've already > cleared with the boss ;-}). > > I have a short story I would like comment on posted at > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/4714/UglyPrincess.html > > The story is targetted to the 10-16-year-old market. The response from > that age group has been almost uniformly positive. Still, I would like > input on it -- the responses I got from an online critique group were > mainly from men and, frankly, most of them didn't get it. > > TIA > > Lisa Burton > Xanadu Scriveners > http://members.tripod.com/~Borogrove/editor.html > Pager > http://wwp.mirabilis.com/16062745 > ICQ SFF Writers' Group > http://groups.icq.com/group.asp?no=409617 > The Dance of Light and Magic > http://www.delphi.com/Castle_of_Light -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:25:24 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: SF past sell-by date? was Cyberculture >If Sheri Tepper had, she might not have made the glaring >error she did in Gibbon's Decline and Fall that utilized AIDS >as a factor in the extinction of certain parts of the population. >In time, her book is going to lose its value for that very >reason, unless it comes out in a revised version. Is that necessarily so? I can think of lots of sf that's been overtaken by time (too many books to list, but just for example, Orwell's _1984_: the real 1984 looked nothing like that but that doesn't meant the book can't be read and - well, perhaps enjoyed isn't quite the word -appreciated). There's a difference between getting facts simply dead wrong from the start, and making speculations on the basis of current knowledge and understanding. SF is a 'thought-experiment', not a prophecy. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:44:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: SF past sell-by date? was Cyberculture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >There's a difference between getting facts simply dead wrong from the start, >and making speculations on the basis of current knowledge and understanding. >SF is a 'thought-experiment', not a prophecy. Furthermore, if the "outdated" premise isn't absolutely central to the plot, it can be ignored. (This is distinct from the value that a thought-experiment can have even if the initial conditions turn out to be incorrect.) I re-read _Babel-17_ this weekend (a marvelous book by Samuel Delaney, 1966) and was struck by the occassional obsolete technology: audio recorded on tape spools, computers programmed with punch cards, watches with minute hands. But it didn't matter. In fact, if you pay attention, *none* of the book relies on technology in any but the very vaguest way ("learning Kiswahili with the help of the personafix," "carbo-synth machines", "scanning the hyperstasis frequencies") -- it's all about people and language and how you learn to think. I love this book even though many references to existing technology are ridiculous. (Gosh, Jessie, are you sure this isn't just a blatant plug for a book you liked? Well, maybe, but it is still a good example.) jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:05:05 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: OS Card and his attitudes, also Mormon church Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >>Card wasn't writing _about_ the Book of Mormon in the Homecoming series, he rewrote the Book of Mormon (without telling the unwary reader that he was doing so). He used the basic narrative of the early part of the Book of Mormon on which to base his novel. I don't call that "rewriting" it, since the original still exists as a volume of Scripture (not as a replacement for the Bible, BTW). >>And I am not sure that he was doing anything to dispell the prejudice about the Mormons; for a start, the series confirmed _me_ in my otherwise baseless assumption that the Mormons are homophobic. I am a Mormon. I am not homophobic. My friends are Mormons. My friends are not homophobic. But somehow those facts don't do anything to dispell the notions that people have obtained from somewhere and prefer to hold on to. Actually, the homosexual character in the Homecoming books was a brave and honorable guy, so I don't know why it caused that reaction for you. > >_No_ Mormons are polygamous; the practice was outlawed in our church in 1890. The polygamists you hear about in Utah are not Mormons, but the press insists on referring to them as "Mormon fundamentalists." There's no such thing! I have seen teleivison programmes (in the UK) about these polygamists. They call themselves Mormons; they claim that "orthodox" Mormons have abandoned the ancient customs; therefore, by most definitions, they are fundamentalist Mormons. I should think that UK television shows know less about what Mormons are than Mormons do. Polygamists are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A lot of people objected to the abandonment of polygamy by the Church, and they chose to keep up the practice within their own organizations rather than stay with the original church. I think they have a right to do that--I'm still not sure the Supreme Court was right to declare it unconstitutional--but the church teaches us to obey the law of the land, and when polygamy was outlawed, the Mormons ceased the practice of polygamy. It's not needed now, anyway. It was set up to provide some protection for the widows and orphans of men murdered by mobs. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:34:04 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 14 Oct 1998 to 15 Oct 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzy, MC are you the Suzy McKee Charnas who wrote =The Kingdom of Kevin Malone=? I just recently ordered that for my daughter because I had heard it was an excellent YA with good role models. My daughter is eight and loves to read, particularly speculative ficiton. SMCharnas wrote some =excellent= points: > But if she can use her skills and strength to defend *herself*, she ceases > to be the natural victim whose rescue gives the male hero his raison d'etre. > All of a sudden we're all just people -- and there is nothing more threatening ... and > does the heroine or female protagonist have other women in her life, > as all real women do -- mother, sisters, daughters maybe, aunts, female > mentors, female colleagues, female rivals and female enemies? Does the author > see, and reflect in his or her writing for us to see as well, that the real world really > is roughly half and half, and that both men and women have many, many > important ties to women as well as to men? Lack of that awareness is a dead > giveaway that you are not dealing with a feminist work because it does not > honor the reality of female presence and impact in women's lives. Yes! One thing I look for is two (or more) women having a civil conversation (assuming it covers more topics than how wonderful are The Guys). I at random picked up several books here and flipped through them. The male characters talk about many things, including, but certainly not only, women. The female characters talk about the guys. In particular, does the book contain more than one woman in a position of authority, and do the strong women have conversations with among themselves as equals who respect one another. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:49:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: feminism, fantasy, sf In-Reply-To: <36260483.556C@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok, I see now. You are right, the "sexualized" version of "girl power" (like those horrible Spice Girls) definitely seems a lot more popular with mass culture. It's not really feminism, in my opinion, more like bubble gum with "feminist flavor" on the wrapper. I still think that things like _Tank Girl_ should not be rejected because they sometimes are welcomed by sexist people for the wrong reasons. That would be, in my opinion, like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I think that antifeminist forces often use the emergence of "lipstick feminism" to denounce the more "traditional" part of the movement, but it is not the fault of the former, and it does not make either of them "wrong" . The fact that our differences ar often used to put us up against each other, to me, is the reason why it is so important to accept each other's views on "what is feminism", even if we support totally different ways to get there. I don't know if I explain it well, but basically, I think that just because the mainstream society "likes" one kind of feminists more that the other, it does not mean we should fight with each other over that. As long as we don't make our _purpose_ to be accepted at any cost, if they still do -- that's fine. We don't have to be always hated to be right, do we? And if some not very intelligent people can accept feminists only when they have makeup on -- well, that's their problem. Concerning the bubble-gum "feminism" of Spice Girls -- my main problem with them is that their music sucks. I have mixed feelings whether they are good or bad to the cause of women's movement. On one side, it's sad to think that they can create an impression that this is true "girl power". At the same time, the fact that feminism became something that entertainment industry sees as having marketing value, could be seen that it achieved certain appeal as a political idea. Remeber, ten years ago, when Gorbachev came up with that glastnost policy, clothes with Soviet symbols suddenly became popular? Fashion may not have any sense or meaning, but it can be a good indicator of the change of society's attitude towards a certain political movement. You know, every wave from the ocean has its froth. Spice-type girl power is froth, it may not be pretty but it's harmless, and kind of proves the power and magnitide of the wave. That's what I think. Or maybe I'm just trying to find some ham in every pork, or whatever they call it. Marina PS. If i misunderstood you, Allyson, I apologize. . On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Allyson Shaw wrote: > You've misunderstood what I was saying. Anyone can wear lipstick, who > cares? I don't think wearing lipstick is political. But I do think that > the way "new" feminists have been framed and sexualized in the media > here in the US is significant. And the co-optation of the Riot Grrrl > aesthetic is part of this-- But really it has little to do with what > choices women make in their real lives. > --Allyson > P.S.-- I probably own more lipstick than anyone I know, maybe more than > anybody on the list! :) > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:48:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: <19981015214231.6745.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Daniel Krashin wrote: > My two cents: I've read extensively in the press of 3 countries > (Germany, UK, USA) about the wars of Yugoslav succession, and > they seemed to agree that the Bosnian Serbs were the nastiest, > followed closely by the Croatians. That is not to say that the > Bosnians (who are not just Muslims, by the way) didn't commit > plenty of nastiness too. But the organized nastiness of the > Serbs seemed to be something special. Well, the reasons why the press "agrees" that Serbs were "the nastiest" have already been discussed here. Bosnians were backed by the US, and Croatians by Germany and the European part of NATO, so it would be difficult to explain these counries' support to those two sides of Bosnian conflict if it was admitted that none of them was any better than the other. There have not been born a politician who would admit that their country's support of a particular side is due entirely to political interest of helping an ally, no matter how bad they behave. So far, military support is always explained by some special cruelness of the "other side." There is simply no way possible that one side in a conflict like this can be any better or worse than another. Why would it be? What would prevent Muslim Bosnians from committing the same crimes as Serbs, some genetical predisposition to cruelty present only in the DNA of Serbs? This is pretty much what this whole campaign is aimed to prove, but isn't it kind of racist? Finally, what would be the scale to determine the level of "nastiness"? Raping women in concentration camps -- 10 points, raping women in war brothels -- 8 points? > > As for the current conflict, those same press sources agreed that > Milosevich pretty much started up the Kosovo conflict unilaterally > by revoking the autonomy of that region. He then used the resulting > unrest as an excuse to move in heavily-armed police and heavy > weapons including helicopter gunships and tanks, ostensibly to > combat the UCK (Kosovo Liberation Army) but apparently also with > the goal of drying up the UCK's base of support by driving out > the ethnic Albanians -- i.e. "ethnically cleansing" them. I really hope this is not going to happen any time soon, but if Irish Republican Army manages to launch a full-scale armed rebellion in Northern Ireland, what do you think the actions of British government are going to be? And who would have "started it" by annexing Ireland in the first place? (God forbid me from supporting IRA, by the way. I am just trying to figure out how is it that exactly the same kind of situation -- the conflict over "who's got to this land first" can be seen in two opposite ways depending on whose action we want to justify). > So is the West justified in threatening force to stop this stuff? > I think so. Yes, when this kind of barbarism happens in Asia or > Africa there isn't as much of a reaction from the world community, > but that seems like no excuse for inaction now. (This may also > set a precedent in world law for intervening in internal struggles > in sovereign nations, which may be a good thing over all.) The "world law" in the face of the US government so far cannot do much (if anything) to intervene in the internal struggles between the neighborhood gangs in its own cities. With the districts of South Bronx or East L.A. being far from sovereign, and not employing any tanks, fighter planes or missiles so far. Of course, "restoring order" on foreign soil is a lot easier, since the politicians won't have to be held accountable for the deaths of civilians wiped out in the process. You cannot bomb LA, you can hit some "good" citizens, and that could be costly. On the other side of the world, no matter how many people die, it's only "casualties". None of them could vote for the bomb-order giving officials on the next elections anyway. Just think about this -- when three years ago, one single building here in Oklahoma City blew up, it was such tradegy, the country could not get over the shock for months. The bombs to be used in former Yugoslavia will not be made of fertilizer. 127 victims a day would not be even newsworthy. Is anyone going to cry for those children? And will those who give the orders to press the button get death penalty, too? I am not a pacifist, as you all probably know by now. But if you want to punish members of a war conflict for their crimes against humanity, you've gotta punish them all, or no one. You cannot just punish one side because the other two or three are your friends. You can try, of course. But it will be about as good for the future of the people you are trying to "help" as if in 1860's, some extraterrestrials appeared and started fighting on the side of North, with their flying ships and laser weapons. Would it help the North win the war faster? probably. Would there be any US after that? I doubt it. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:18:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princess" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Oct 98 12:27:18 -0000." <36273BA6.7454@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >I don't know if there are other writers on the list, as I am kind of >new to the list myself. It would be interesting to hear about the work >of other writers on the list if there are some. There are a number of published authors on the list, and in the last week a number of new writers appear to have suddenly poked their heads up too. I wonder if there'd be interest in some sort of writer's reading/critique group? It would have to be in some other forum, I suppose, since the length would be unwieldy. But as a number of people have commented that they're worried that the mainstream will be (or is) leery of their work, it might be a really good thing to have a supportive group. (Supportive of the departure from the mainstream, I mean. One hopes they'd rip apart bad writing like any good writing workshop.) And while we're on the subject, Linda Lovvik commented on "The Ugly Princess": >I found your message regarding the relativity of beauty to be clear. I actually found it to be a little too clear. The message that stuck with me was "beauty is important". So although I liked the play on perception, it seemed that the idea of true, valuable beauty was still perpetuated. I'm guessing that the message was supposed to be about the way in which beauty is defined by the culture and therefore on some level inherently meaningless -- but we were so clearly meant to think that she "really" was beautiful that I thought it was sort of undermined. I enjoyed reading it, though. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:40:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You know, Jane, I think you are right. I would not expect myself to say this, but intervention in Kosovo _might_ help, but ONLY on one condition -- if it is used to actually enforce peace and help all people in trouble with humanitarian aid. Which means that the main purpose has to be to keep the sides away from each other, and punish war criminals no matter which side they belong to. However, I don't think it's the kind of intervention that is advocated right now. For the last several years, the press coverage was so focused on "bad" Serbs and "good" guys on the other sides, deeply installing the idea of Serbs as "Nazis", that I don't think they as a nation stand a chance of even being considered as humans in need of protection. I don't think that US government in "inherently evil" , but I just cannot picture after the years of "black and white" presentaiton of the conflict, the US military forces protecting the "Nazi" Serbs and providing them with humanitarian aid along with Bosnians and Albanians. It would be great, but I don't think it's possible. That would mean stripping the "friendly" sides of their status as the only victims, getting their leaders responsible for the crimes committed by their forces as much as Milosevic and the gang will be held responsible for theirs, and basically, stand between several forces blinded by mutual hatred, each of whom will resent the Western intervention for their own reason. I am afraid that no Western government has the courage or the good will to do that. It's too difficult and dangerous. It can end up like Somalia. Simply choosing one side and helping it win against the "evil ones" is so much easier and useful for "establishing influence." It would be nice if I were wrong and the intervention in Kosovo would actually have a goal of making peace. But protecting people would mean protecting all of them, and the way Serbs as a nation are presented to the public opinion of the West, I really doubt those who are planning the intervention have any plans for them as a nation other than elimination as a part of universal evil. Which will only make the matters even worse than if the world community stayed out altogether. Marina On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > The funny thing is, I'm pro-intervention in Kosovo. Not the kind of intervention we'll get--airstrikes, possibly the stupidest (though cheapest) form of war--but troops and lots of humanitarian aid for everyone might help. I do all these left politics, and we just had this big "Hands off Kosovo" demonstration, to which I didn't go. Actually, I guess I'm one of the bad guys, because I've only explained why I didn't go to a few people. I know that explaining it to most of my left friends would get me a reputation as politically unreliable. The accepted line here is that any official US action is bad, because American motives are always bad. (Which I believe to be true) But that doesn't mean that the objective results of what we do is always totally bad. > > And I keep thinking of Czechoslovakia being just handed over to Hitler, and of the Jewish people who begged FDR to bomb the camps during WWII, on the theory that while it would kill the people there, at least the camps would be shut down. You can't abandon people. I didn't understand Bosnia while it was going on and I don't really know what I can do right now. If I said anything about being pro-intervention, even to my housemates, there'd be a lot of gossip about me. There already is a little, because a lot of the left-wing people here are very into Maoist thought, and I've been to China and am appalled by this. (The people themselves are very nice, and some of the hardest working activists I've ever met. And they do good work. It's just that I think they're a little naive about Mao. I was at one point too.) > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > I just hate the idea that when something horrible happens somewhere else you just have to let it happen and happen and happen, because you're afraid of your own motives if you act. You know, there is a movement in former Yugoslavia called "Suada's Bridge Project". It's named after the female student who was the first civilian victim in the Yugoslavian conflict. Its goal is to unite women of all Yugoslavian ethnic groups in the effort to stop war violence against women, and achive inter-ethnic peace, despite all the mutual resentments. They have a web site, and my web site has a link to it (I cannot look up their actual address right now, cause I am in Unix, but I will post it later). Just thought I'd let you know. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:58:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princess" In-Reply-To: <9810170018.AA19690@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hiya, Am poking my head up grin. I would be very very very interested in joining a small critique group for writers who write in this particular category of fiction, or interested in a forum of writers that would organize such a place to share their work... Just went through my baptism of fire in my fiction writing class this past wed. I submitted a 19 page short story that was critiqued by 12 students & the professor. It went better than I thought it would, and this time out as I have been in this type of setting before at a university, I took more control this time than I usually do and I watched people reading instead of spending my time staring at the floor. The story was set in the future, and had a Handmaid's Tale flavor to it which was a concern, but was reassured by my professor that I am learning my own way here, and that to keep to the writing, be attentive to the work or the process, and my own voice will arrive. The result of observing the readers helped me to tell before they spoke what was their reaction to the piece, which this time, was the setting or sense of place confused everyone. I was able to tell something was up when most of the readers kept flipping pages to and fro. Oh, and there are writers on the list here who have their own webpages...Nicola Griffith comes to mind right now she has a very nicely done site. Onward! Jo Ann At 05:18 PM 10/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >>I don't know if there are other writers on the list, as I am kind of >>new to the list myself. It would be interesting to hear about the work >>of other writers on the list if there are some. > >There are a number of published authors on the list, and in the last week a >number of new writers appear to have suddenly poked their heads up too. I >wonder if there'd be interest in some sort of writer's reading/critique group? >It would have to be in some other forum, I suppose, since the length would be >unwieldy. But as a number of people have commented that they're worried that >the mainstream will be (or is) leery of their work, it might be a really good >thing to have a supportive group. (Supportive of the departure from the >mainstream, I mean. One hopes they'd rip apart bad writing like any good >writing workshop.) > >And while we're on the subject, Linda Lovvik commented on "The Ugly Princess": > >>I found your message regarding the relativity of beauty to be clear. > >I actually found it to be a little too clear. The message that stuck with me >was "beauty is important". So although I liked the play on perception, it >seemed that the idea of true, valuable beauty was still perpetuated. I'm >guessing that the message was supposed to be about the way in which beauty is >defined by the culture and therefore on some level inherently meaningless -- >but we were so clearly meant to think that she "really" was beautiful that I >thought it was sort of undermined. > >I enjoyed reading it, though. > >jessie > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: <19981015214231.6745.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hiya, I've been wary of all newspapers lately only because it seems just when I think I have got the skinny on a crisis happening outside the United States someone comes along and lifts a corner of the carpet to show me how my own government helped bring about the horror of the situation...am not talking the BIG BROTHER urban legends that political parties bring up when dispelling rumor mills in the media, but when something happens like a large group of people is killed by fighters backed by eventual US money, or trained by our own military, again using our tax dollars, and then the act for killing said group of civilians in another country is found pardonable, and there are no legal ramifications to the killers of what used to be a group of human beings, I just go numb for a bit, then I get out my notebook and my anger streams down the page. Last time I felt this way, it was about San Salvador. About an entire village being wasted by the gov't army. One woman survived to tell people whose bones they found eleven years later. It would otherwise have been just another mass grave of unknown origin. The killers who were accountable for the crime were pardoned through amnesty. I wish it were not true, but a long time ago I once heard a history professor say there are children born in the world who never get a name. There are a lot of people in this world who have no voice. It seems overwhelming when one considers the immensity of the problem, but that is where influence occurs. Those who want you to see the "good" and the "bad" are presenting their perspective of what they think is the way to see something or a situation. so for the moment, I am observing where my information is coming from just as carefully as what the news entails. Jo Ann At 02:42 PM 10/15/98 PDT, you wrote: >My two cents: I've read extensively in the press of 3 countries >(Germany, UK, USA) about the wars of Yugoslav succession, and >they seemed to agree that the Bosnian Serbs were the nastiest, >followed closely by the Croatians. That is not to say that the >Bosnians (who are not just Muslims, by the way) didn't commit >plenty of nastiness too. But the organized nastiness of the >Serbs seemed to be something special. > >As for the current conflict, those same press sources agreed that >Milosevich pretty much started up the Kosovo conflict unilaterally >by revoking the autonomy of that region. He then used the resulting >unrest as an excuse to move in heavily-armed police and heavy >weapons including helicopter gunships and tanks, ostensibly to >combat the UCK (Kosovo Liberation Army) but apparently also with >the goal of drying up the UCK's base of support by driving out >the ethnic Albanians -- i.e. "ethnically cleansing" them. > >So is the West justified in threatening force to stop this stuff? >I think so. Yes, when this kind of barbarism happens in Asia or >Africa there isn't as much of a reaction from the world community, >but that seems like no excuse for inaction now. (This may also >set a precedent in world law for intervening in internal struggles >in sovereign nations, which may be a good thing over all.) > >I guess there isn't much to say from a feminist topic, except that >people like Milosevic are the real sticking point for me when it >comes to accepting traditional feminist pacifism. > >I'll try to keep off the subject from now on, wasn't I just ranting >about a book or something? :) > >Danny > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:26:58 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit There has been well-done thought on this awful situation. My gut feeling is that nobody knows what to do. And so they fall back on the old guns. Maybe it is not just a lack of guts and integrity (won't say who or which) but just such a tangled situation that the alternative seems to be to let them kill each other, and the one left standing -- well, deal with that one. For the non-Americans on the list, IMO it is difficult for Americans to understand political disagreements that go back centuries... as in Northern Ireland (you have to understand Cromwell's invasions, among other things, and most Americans don't even know who he was) or in Yugoslavia... and Africa is still the Dark Continent to most of us Yanks. We just don't get it. And this feeds our inability to know what to do -- how to respond. But there is a feeling that we ought to. So we do in a half-assed kind of way. Of course, this fumbling is accompanied by high-tech military toys so it is deadly. I don't know the answer, either, despite being a student of history and privvy to more information in that respect than non-history buffs. But most people in the world, including Americans, see the conflict in Kosovo as horrendous and they want it to end. As I say: what is to be done? sadly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 21:06:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Marina wrote: > > huge snip < > > (God forbid me from supporting IRA, by the way. I am just trying to > figure out how is it that exactly the same kind of situation -- the > conflict over "who's got to this land first" can be seen in two opposite > ways depending on whose action we want to justify). > Unfortunately, I don't have the previous post, in which the question was asked, "Should Muslim men be deprived of human rights because they treat women badly". That immediately brought to mind other struggles in which the left has adopted a side as being just that does to women what it expects to world to see as unjust when done to men. An analogous situation to expecting *women* to join in a protest against what is done to a Muslim nation ruled (or to be ruled, once they come to power) by men, is precisely that of Northern Ireland. What broad principle of justice is being invoked to appeal to non-participants, that excludes the women that the men of the Muslim or Catholic religions would rule without representation and without mercy? How can you fight for a cause that says you yourself are not worthy of its benefits? Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 00:07:07 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: OS Card and his attitudes, also Mormon church Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/7/98 7:11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << There may well be Mormon fundamentalists. I read a rather disturbing article in Salon magazine (online magazine, sorta silly) about polygamy and its effects on women. It's just that where I come from, most people dismiss Mormons because of their polygamy (which is rather odd, since I don't see that polygamy would neccesarily be bad. These people who claim to be Mormons who practice it seem to practice it with bigotry and sexism though) It just seems to me better to know what Mormons actually do and why so that the debate can proceed on fair terms. >> As a Mormon, I appreciate your fair-minded approach. When people look down on us, they are reacting to distorted articles such as this one rather than to the truth. I can imagine that polygamy (using the term loosely to mean "plural wives") would be very difficult on women. It would be hard on men, too, who would have to support several households and and try to keep several women reasonably happy! Anyway, any Mormon found to be practicing polygamy is excommunicated; you can't be a practicing polygamist and a member of the Mormon Church at the same time. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:51:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG: other representations of gender In-Reply-To: <2057383@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allyson, At 02:30 PM 10/16/98 CST, you wrote: >Your project sounds very interesting and ambitious-- I'm having trouble >starting my second novel-- I can't imagine writing a trilogy! I was completely astonished by Book Two. Walk-ons from Book One, who did not even have proper names, suddenly became major characters. I had characters with similar names who were never intended to MEET suddenly go off together on an adventure and make me work like a dog to keep them separate in the reader's mind. I surrendered to the process and let them work. > >I, too am trying to find a good agent. It will be difficult, I think, >because my novel is kind of genre-bending. It's a quasi-historical >novel set during the bubonic plague, a revisionist history of St. >Catherine of Siena's life. Sounds fascinating. What we need is a showcase for stuff that's out of the ordinary. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 00:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princ In-Reply-To: <2057974@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:04 PM 10/16/98 CST, Jo Ann wrote: >I would be very very very interested in joining a small critique group for >writers who write in this particular category of fiction, or interested in >a forum of writers that would organize such a place to share their work... I often miss not having a writing group, but I avoid critquing at all costs. I'm a bitch and I critique with fang and claw. Don't like it; can't help it; won't do it. Even when I am specifically asked for an opinion, and I give it gently and thoughtfully, I usually elict gasps of horror from the other people at the table. Xena, Warrior Critic. I could use a support group. I know that I need people who are doing the same kind of work I am. I'm working in a 3600 page frame (six novels @ 600 pages each) If I ask a short story writer to give me feed back on exposition, I know I am going to get a distorted answer. I need people who are heavily into research. And since the series has something to offend everyone, I need people with an open mind and a good sense of the ridiculous. If we can get a few small groups going with with like-minded people, I'm interested. But I can't make any long term commitments till I meet the other folks in the group. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 01:07:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia -- what to do? In-Reply-To: <398244a7.36280e82@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, this is just my opinion, but I think that the only way West can help people in former Yugoslavia is by providing a non-partial force that would stop fighting by keeping the local miltant groups away from each other, and ensuring that all war criminals, on all sides will be held responsible for their crimes, regardless of their (or the victims') ethnic, religious, or political background. And the only way to get the support of the local population in this undertaking is by assuring them that the foreign forces that do it are going to protect all of them equally Serbs. Among all, that would undermine the Milosevic's claim of being the only one who cares about Serbs, and is going to protect them from the West who would liek to see them all dead (which right now is pretty easy for him to claim, with all this "Serbian Nazis" hysteria in Western press). So far, both the boycott and the one-sided propaganda in the media only strengthens Milosevic's position, by helping convincing Serbs that the whole world is against them, and they have to fight to last drop of blood. If the West could at least stop the idiotic "hate-the-Serbs" campaign and condemn all war crimes equally, as crimes and not as "wicked habits of one evil nation", in other words, without racism, that would take half of the fire from the conflict by itself. After all, people don't like fighting with the neighbors they had been living with for hundreds years that much. They can get tired of it pretty soon, unless there is a cheering crowd that had placed their bets and is now screaming "Come on, get them!" You can not stop a war by taking one's side. it's like trying to put up a fire by pouring gasoline in it. The same as when police is called to stop a fight in a bar, cops don't choose one guy and help him ambush the other guys using police equipment. Instead, they bust them all, and make sure they won't hurt each other anymore. And that's what's got to happen in the former Yugoslavia, if anyone wants peace there. IMHO Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 01:27:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kathleen, I absolutely agree with you. I must have really screwed up my writing if you decided that I was in any way justifying the Muslims treating women badly. I meant exactly the opposite. What I meant by my particular comparison of Albanian rebels with Irish Republican Army, is that there is often a very fine line between a "nation's right for self-determination" and separatism. That's what all civil wars have been about, including the American one. Northern Ireland has been a part of the United Kingdom for centuries. And for centuries before that, it had been a part of sovereign Ireland. So who got more rights on it? Should the government of Great Britain let it go because after all it is Ireland? Or would it mean to give in to IRA's terrorism, and abandon those citizens of Northern Ireland who don't want it to separate? Whatever the solution could be, if it exists, no one in the Western world so far suggests to bring US military forces there and help one side demolish the other. The situation with Serbia and Kosovo being part of it for centuries is very similar. However because it is Eastern Europe instead of Western, the complexity of the question of the land "ownership" does not seem to be recognized. That's what I was trying to say. Marina P.S. Of course, there is no full-fledged conflict in N. Ireland like it is in Kosovo. But the only reason for that, I'm afraid, is that Irish separatists do not have Iran to back them up. > On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Marina wrote: > > > > huge snip < > > > > (God forbid me from supporting IRA, by the way. I am just trying to > > figure out how is it that exactly the same kind of situation -- the > > conflict over "who's got to this land first" can be seen in two opposite > > ways depending on whose action we want to justify). > > > On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Keith wrote: > Unfortunately, I don't have the previous post, in which the question was > asked, "Should Muslim men be deprived of human rights because they treat > women badly". That immediately brought to mind other struggles in which > the left has adopted a side as being just that does to women what it > expects to world to see as unjust when done to men. An analogous > situation to expecting *women* to join in a protest against what is done > to a Muslim nation ruled (or to be ruled, once they come to power) by men, > is precisely that of Northern Ireland. What broad principle of justice is > being invoked to appeal to non-participants, that excludes the women that > the men of the Muslim or Catholic religions would rule without > representation and without mercy? > > How can you fight for a cause that says you yourself are not worthy of its > benefits? > > Kathleen > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 01:51:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia -- what to do? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Marina wrote: > ... And the only way to get the support of the local > population in this undertaking is by assuring them that the foreign forces > that do it are going to protect all of them equally Serbs. meaning, "...equally, including Serbs" http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:02:03 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:44 AM 10/16/98 -0500, Jane Franklin wrote: >Actually, one of the things I've read about the Bosnia thing is that the World Bank >austerity policies had a lot to do with destabilizing the country and making it easy for >wars to start. Nature and politics abhors a vacuum:) When the previous regime collapsed, it provided space for opportunists to take advantage of. I have a close friend who is Croatian-born and visited *home* on a number of occasions during the early 90's - on one trip he brought back several tapes of TV broadcasts. I was quite surprised at the skill of the propaganda machinery. Up there with Hollywood, and reminiscent of American nationalistic propaganda. With Milosevic's training in psychology in particular, I can well understand Elethiomel's earlier comments about Serbs being fed lies, and the rise of nationalistic fervour. There is often only a very thin line between encouraging *pride* in an ethnic culture's history and achievements, and encouraging a dislike, distrust and hatred of 'outsiders' to that culture. Combine that with economic chaos, where the population is often looking for answers to "Why?" ......and the simplest answer is its *THEM*: its *their* fault - ie: some other ethnic group. *They* have taken the land, the jobs, or own all the major industries, businesses or control the banks or whatever. Such a situation is always ripe for opportunists to attempt to grab power. Throughout history, such opportunists have often used a platform of appealing to "my people" to win support for their cause. As for the peace-negotiation processes and involvement of the Western powers in Bosnia - I recall seeing a Belgian documentary and an interview with one of the American members of the negotiation team during the Sarajevo siege. Two of his comments have stuck in my memory. Firstly, he commented that for many members of the team, it took close to two years before they realised the depth of Milosevic's lies. To the team-members he appeared reasonable and sincerely committed to peace. Like Chamberlain with Hitler at Munich in 1939, they accepted Milosevic's official statements, as having been made in 'good faith'. The second comment the guy made was that the USA; (as mentioned previously prefers to only intervene directly when its own interests are involved - or perhaps their military/CIA resources were stretched thin in the Middle East??) - anyway, the USA was relying heavily on European NATO Allies for intelligence, particularly the French. It may have been this interviewee's own personal perceptions, but he felt the French attitude was akin to "when the dust settles in the Balkans, there will be someone left to negotiate with on trade, and it matters little to us who that is". In short, he felt the USA and the UN peace-negotiating team had insufficient information with which to assess the situation, which inevitably led to delays and indecisiveness. > >Not all Americans are total yahoos. I'd like to make a large apology for the many dumb >things my country does--I oppose them when I can, as do some of my fellow citizens. While >I'm at it I apologize for our awful manners and ugly clothes. And our imperialism, and all >the shameful things we do. We are a bully of a country, full of ignorant, complacent >people. > LOL! I accept your apology Jane, in the spirit in which it is offerred:))) Although the USA does tend to present itself to the world as a kind of planetary "Hero", a kind of global Superman, fighting for truth, justice and the American way etc .. it is not the American people's fault that the USA's policies so often turn into villainy..eg Chile, Nicaragua, and the list goes on. But as with most nation-states, ethnic groups planet-wide - propaganda plays an important part in encouraging people's support of their own nation's policies. The American propaganda machine is so incredibly sophisticated, I am often breathless with admiration for it - from Hollywood movies ( ID4 and The Postman spring to mind), kindergarten youngsters "doing the flag", 4th of July parades, an education system solely focussed on its own navel which heavily reinforces nationalistic pride in the young, even humanity's dreams of the future has been colonised by America. And America has the arrogance to claim that communist or fascist or military regimes have some sort of monopoly on brain-washing their people?:)) If American people are constantly bombarded with the message that their nation is 'heroic' and 'free' and 'democratic' and the 'good guys' where almost everyone can recite the important parts of the Declaration of Independence, and can re-enact Thanksgiving every November, ...then its a short step to encouraging the population to believe its OK to aggressively intervene elsewhere because *they* are somehow a serious threat to the American values... ( or more likely economic interests) .. then how is this different from Serbs believing the same thing about themselves based on their own cultural/historical icons, such as the victory over the Turks in the 14th Century? Anyway, I digress - my point is basically, that it is no more the American people's fault for believing in, and enthusiastically supporting their own nationalistic propaganda, than it is the fault of any cultural/ethnic/national group for being sucked in by their own versions. Like masturbation, everyone does it - but nobody talks about it:)) > >I don't think it's our job to be the world's policeman, and I think we do only intervene in our own >interests. I don't think American policy is motivated by moral considerations. > I agree - moral considerations are rarely a motivation for intervention, although it may suit some national governments to relay that to the people as its reasons. It may be a remnant of US cultural imperialism however for smaller, less powerful nations to perceive calling on the USA for help, as akin to "calling in the cops" ... after all, the USA sends out the message that it really is Superman who is always there to help save the day for "truth, justice, and Democratic freedoms" ... but if it isnt in Superman's interests to help out, he just mumbles something about needing to grow up and sort out your own messes, or *shrugs* and walks away. >I just hate the idea that when something horrible happens somewhere else you just have to let it >happen and happen and happen, because you're afraid of your own motives if you act. > Reminds me of a recent series of shows I saw concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. One of the UN people commented along similar lines, saying things like "we have run out of room for everyone to have *homelands*, and quickly running out of band-aids" for resolving conflict. And while everyone insists on only taking action in their own interests, there will always be conflicts of interest. Whilst everyone is suspicious of everyone else's motives for involving themselves in conflicts, everyone will continue to have "hidden agendas". One alternative she suggested is to try to ensure peace-negotiating teams and forces are as distant, and as uninvolved in the conflict as possible. Teams to be truly "international" etc. For example a delegation from the ASEAN countries may have more success at proposing workable solutions to resolving conflict in the Middle East, than the USA or European big-brothers who have so much vested interests in Israel's economy and resources. ((But then the USA probably wouldnt trust ASEAN to not try and gain trade advantages, just like they want to do:)) While everyone resorts to warfare, or economic obliteration (poverty resulting from unannounced and private trade sanctions can kill just as many people as bullets and air-strikes - just takes more time to starve them into submission or death) to resolve those conflicts of interest, it will eventually result in a world dominated by the group(s) which has the means to win the most conflicts. If everyone is happy or just apathetic with that state of affairs, then so be it. But she also suggested a call for international "brain-storming", for possible solutions, plans, methodologies etc to establish planetary government. Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 01:00:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: BDG: other representations of gender? In-Reply-To: <19981015013748845.AAA262.301@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I'm wondering if there are other examples of books that attempt to depict > alternate models of human genders, and how they compare with Shadow Man. Hi Jennifer, This isn't exactly a model of human gender, but Isaac Asimov's *The Gods Themselves* has a very interesting segment on a tri-gendered alien society that includes a Rational, a Parental and an Emotional. The Rational and Parental are referred to by male pronouns, the Emotional by female ones. The model is complicated by the division of the society into the Hard Ones and the Soft Ones (the Soft Ones are those with this gender division). When they "pass on" the Rational, Parental and Emotion combine to form a Hard One. The Hard Ones have social control. The book is a fairly quick read, and the segment on these aliens only makes about a third of it. I would definitely recommend! pam bedore simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:37:06 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princess" In-Reply-To: <9810170018.AA19690@shoebox-greetings.pa.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT For those so inclined, there *is* a lesbian-writers email list that workshops stuff all the time that I have been on for a few years. If you don't already know about it and would like subscription info, email me privately and I will be happy to fish it out for you. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net > >I don't know if there are other writers on the list, as I am kind of > >new to the list myself. It would be interesting to hear about the work > >of other writers on the list if there are some. > > There are a number of published authors on the list, and in the last week a > number of new writers appear to have suddenly poked their heads up too. I > wonder if there'd be interest in some sort of writer's reading/critique group? > It would have to be in some other forum, I suppose, since the length would be > unwieldy. But as a number of people have commented that they're worried that > the mainstream will be (or is) leery of their work, it might be a really good > thing to have a supportive group. (Supportive of the departure from the > mainstream, I mean. One hopes they'd rip apart bad writing like any good > writing workshop.) > > And while we're on the subject, Linda Lovvik commented on "The Ugly Princess": > > >I found your message regarding the relativity of beauty to be clear. > > I actually found it to be a little too clear. The message that stuck with me > was "beauty is important". So although I liked the play on perception, it > seemed that the idea of true, valuable beauty was still perpetuated. I'm > guessing that the message was supposed to be about the way in which beauty is > defined by the culture and therefore on some level inherently meaningless -- > but we were so clearly meant to think that she "really" was beautiful that I > thought it was sort of undermined. > > I enjoyed reading it, though. > > jessie > > Join "Outsiders" (http://Outsiders.listbot.com) the mailist For Those Who Walk Alone... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:50:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Burton Subject: Re: writers on list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rebecca: you might want to look at NovelDoc (http://www3.hypercon.com/~jilla/noveldoc.html) This is a listserv specifically for people with finished novels who are looking for critique. There are other activities as well, but the main focus is on bettering one's writing skills. As for your *own* crit skills, I don't know of any group that only lets you post and not critique as well. Focusing on the technical aspects of a piece rather than its philosophical content should prevent too much violence. ;-} That is what a critique should be about after all, learning the technique. Lisa Xanadu Scriveners http://members.tripod.com/~Borogrove/editor.html Pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/16062745 ICQ SFF Writers' Group http://groups.icq.com/group.asp?no=409617 The Dance of Light and Magic http://www.delphi.com/Castle_of_Light -----Original Message----- From: Rebecca To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] writers on list and "The Ugly Princ >I often miss not having a writing group, but I avoid critquing at all >costs. I'm a bitch and I critique with fang and claw. Don't like it; >can't help it; won't do it. Even when I am specifically asked for an >opinion, and I give it gently and thoughtfully, I usually elict gasps of >horror from the other people at the table. Xena, Warrior Critic. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:14:16 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: writers on the list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 08:04 PM 10/16/98 CST, Jo Ann wrote: >>I would be very very very interested in joining a small critique group for >>writers who write in this particular category of fiction, or interested in >>a forum of writers that would organize such a place to share their work... Rebecca wrote: >If we can get a few small groups going with with like-minded people, I'm >interested. But I can't make any long term commitments till I meet the >other folks in the group. Haven't said much lately, but I can't resist poking _my_ head up for this one.:) I too would be interested in some kind of small critique group. I'm in the midst of writing a fantasy novel that keeps developing background and details and characters that take me by surprise. It can be hard to stay motivated sometimes though, perhaps having some constructive criticism would help. It's so easy to feel isolated as a writer. There are groups out there on the Web, but the one I know about that has a group dealing with Feminist writing has requirements for reading, critiquing and submitting that I don't feel able to deal with right now. If you're interested, take a look at the site below. It also has links to other writing groups. http://www.geocities.com/~lkraus/workshop/ I hope we can work something out. Monica ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:26:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 15 Oct 1998 to 16 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 12:05 AM 10/17/98, Automatic digest processor wrote: >I, too am trying to find a good agent. It will be difficult, I think, >because my novel is kind of genre-bending. It's a quasi-historical >novel set during the bubonic plague, a revisionist history of St. >Catherine of Siena's life. > >I don't know if there are other writer's on the list, as I am kind of >new to the list myself. It would be interesting to hear about the work >of other writers on the list if there are some. > >--Allyson Ålison, welcome, and good luck -- I've been publishing in SF and Fantasy for 25 years, and the profession has been in chaos the entire time (so presumably it was in a milder, quieter, less obtrusive form of chaos long before my own entry into the field, yet survived). Learn to enjoy chaos and challenge, if you want to flourish here! Suzy Charnas >Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:34:04 -0400 >From: Catherine Asaro >Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 14 Oct 1998 to 15 Oct 1998 > >Suzy, MC are you the Suzy McKee Charnas who wrote =The Kingdom of Kevin >Malone=? I just recently ordered that for my daughter because I had >heard it was an excellent YA with good role models. Yippie! I hope she likes it. Yes, that's me, and it's a book I'm particu- larly fond of. I began it as an effort to think out what might have been behind the nasty behavior of a kid who used to live down the block from me when I was growing up. >One thing I look for is two (or more) women having a civil >conversation (assuming it covers more topics than how wonderful are The >Guys). I at random picked up several books here and flipped through >them. The male characters talk about many things, including, but >certainly not only, women. The female characters talk about the guys. >In particular, does the book contain more than one woman in a position >of authority, and do the strong women have conversations with among >themselves as equals who respect one another. Yes, excellent directions to look in for a sense of an author's awareness. Marina wrote: >Concerning the bubble-gum "feminism" of Spice Girls -- my main problem >with them is that their music sucks. I have mixed feelings whether they >are good or bad to the cause of women's movement. On one side, it's sad >to think that they can create an impression that this is true "girl >power". At the same time, the fact that feminism became something that >entertainment industry sees as having marketing value, could be seen that >it achieved certain appeal as a political idea. Also that it's possible to succeed as women with less than wonderful music -- after all, think of all the guy-groups who do fine with rubbish! The aim is still, IMO, for people of any sex to have a fair shot -- even at making lots of $ with junk -- so that we don't stay at the point where women can succeed, but only if they are twice as good, which means that men easily succeed with garbage while women have to struggle like mad to present only the *best*. Suzy MC ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:26:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 15 Oct 1998 to 16 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:05 AM 10/17/98, Automatic digest processor wrote: >and basically, stand between several >forces blinded by mutual hatred, each of whom will resent the Western >intervention for their own reason. I am afraid that no Western government >has the courage or the good will to do that. I'm not sure any outside government has the *ability* to do it. After all, it is what the Soviet-style dominators of Eastern Europe did for decades after the second World War, very successfully but at enormous cost in other areas of civil life; once that iron grip was relaxed, all the hatreds held down by dictatorship bubbled to the surface in a venomous sea of hatred and blood. Is any Western government prepared to occupy this area indefinitely to maintain peace (by force, naturally, which means it's a very compromised peace at best)? And how would the various factions of the people native to the place like that? There are reasons for hesitating to intervene, agonizing as it is to watch the horrors continue to unfold. By the time we decice we *have* to intervene, conditions are always so deteriorated that the results are predetermined to make everybody unhappy. >You know, there is a movement in former Yugoslavia called "Suada's Bridge >Project". It's named after the female student who was the first civilian >victim in the Yugoslavian conflict. The women in Ireland did this kind of work too, with considerable effect, apparently, although the situation is still hot. Maybe outside intervention can work (as it *may* have worked in Ireland) if the local people have already begun serious raprochement and rejection of violence -- which seems to be happening, if this women's organization is a sign, a lot sooner in this conflict than it did in the Irish one. A definite sign of hope -- thanks, Marina. >How can you fight for a cause that says you yourself are not worthy of its >benefits? > >Kathleen Yet women of courage and conscience do this all the time, and then are handed the short, dirty end of the stick by the very men they have been fighting alongside for the freedom of their people. I read about the Algerian expul- sion of the French, and was horrified and depressed. I wonder how it's work- ing out in Vietnam? Suzy MC ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:07:50 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathleen kmhouse@HALCYON.COM wrote: > How can you fight for a cause that says you yourself are not worthy of its > benefits? There is a book by Fatima Mernissi called BEYOND THE VEIL: MALE-FEMALE DYNAMICS IN A MODERN MUSLIM SOCIETY that is an excellent discussion of Islamic feminism. Mernissi is considered one of the pre-eminent feminist scholars of the Arab world. She has a lot to say about the important points you bring up. I'm not convinced she understands western feminism that well, but her insights throughout the book are otherwise brilliant. It is a fascinating read. So are her other works, in particular her memoirs of growing up in a family that practiced seclusion and the veil. (DREAMS OF TRESPASS). She has also written a feminist interpretation of women's rights in islam called THE VEIL AND THE MALE ELITE. All in all a fascinating author to look up. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 15 Oct 1998 to 16 Oct 1998 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, SMCharnas wrote: > At 12:05 AM 10/17/98, Automatic digest processor wrote: > >and basically, stand between several > >forces blinded by mutual hatred, each of whom will resent the Western > >intervention for their own reason. I am afraid that no Western government > >has the courage or the good will to do that. > > I'm not sure any outside government has the *ability* to do it. After all, > it is what the Soviet-style dominators of Eastern Europe did for decades > after the second World War, very successfully but at enormous cost in other > areas of civil life; I agree with you in part. However, I don't think it's exactly the same situation. The Soviet solutions to ethnic tensions were nothing but horribly idiotic. As someone who has been dealing with it my whole life, I can testify to that. It was not "enforced peace" as much as an enforced system of multilevel discrimination. And I don't think our glorious leaders even cares about ehtnic relations as such, it was just a matter of control. In fact, the Comminist Party's "ethnic policy" was basically a sort of twisted, backwards version of affirmative action with all the good parts missing and all the bad parts taken to absurd, which instead of establishing equality created a complex system of hate and mutual resentments. Those policies were not concerned with resolving problems between ethnic groups, they were based on playing on them, rewarding "friendly" nations and punishing "disobedient" ones. And as part of rewarding, giving the former a lisence to abuse their own local minorities in any way they pleased. But I disgress. The problem with the Balkan situation is that if no Western country has the ability to act as peacemaking force, they probably should stay out of it altogether. I don't think that they could keep the warring groups away from each other forever. However, there are forces in the former Yugoslavia that are interested in peace and are willing to work on resolving the differences. But they cannot do it while the fighting is still going. All civil wars produce a breed of "professional fighters" for whom the war became the convenient lifestyle that they are not willing to give up. The local peaceful forces cannot restrain them by themselves. Another thing is that violence begets violence. The same way as it happened in Tajikistan, many of the most cruel murderers were originally regular farmers or high school students, who had witnessed they families brutally slaughtered in front of their eyes, their houses burned, and everything that made their world turned to dust. In response to that, they join the militants groups of "their" side, and when faced with civilians of the opposite group, kill, rape, and burn them as well. Which in its turn might be witnessed by a hiding member of the family they slaughter, who will also take up the arms and go on killing more civilians of the other side. This is how it works (and this is why the claim that Serbs are the only one committing crimes is meaningless bullshit). this also means, that once this circle went rolling, it's very difficult for people to stop. Peace established by an external force could give them a break in which they'd have time to realize that losing the chance to avenge their murdered family is worth giving the chance to surive those relatives who are still alive. Of course, restraint by itself is not going to solve the problem. But it can take away the influence of the irresponsible local leaders -- Serbian and Muslim alike -- who claim that the only way to save their nations is by the holy war. People get tired of wars pretty soon. Especially of the civil ones, when a neigbor is going against a neighbor. However, they cannot do much as long as those blinded by hatred are holding sway. Besides, if no coutry can afford to be a peacemeaker, how come they can afford to get involved in a war on the side of Muslims? Because joining one gang is easier than restraining them both? If US want to be the world police, it should act like police. Police does not take sides. They either try to resolve the conflict with regard to both sides, or if they both are violent -- bust them both. Honestly, I should probably find better things than to play Cassandra. But since the country I live in and kind of like is making a huge mistake, I thought I'd at least say something. If US gets into a war with Serbs,that is not going to do any good to any group in the former Yugoslavia, nor to US itself. A lot of people -- Americans and Yugoslavians -- will get killed for no good reason and the situation will only get a lot worse. Iran might be happy though. In any case, I cannot stop the people bent on taking the damn horse inside the city. I must be glad that at least my family is not Serbs, so they won't get slaughtered for this particular "just cause" by the well-meaning foreing soldiers, so at least I don't have to worry about that. I cannot prove that the war with Serbs the West is embarking on is going to bring nothing but pain to everyone. When it happens (and it does not seem to be long now), you will see for yourselves. But knowing that a whole bunch of people are going to get hurt because of their leaders' stupidity makes me very sad. I wish I could stop them, but apparently, there is nothing I can do. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:20:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Marina wrote: > Kathleen, I absolutely agree with you. I must have really screwed up my > writing if you decided that I was in any way justifying the Muslims > treating women badly. I meant exactly the opposite. > Marina, I apologize for my hopelessly convoluted writing style. Your own post was much broader and more subtle than the one aspect I commented on. You did happen, in that post, to make a connection that has bothered me very much for a long time - between the assumed "rightness" of the Muslims (_not_ your view, but Western media) in one conflict, and the Catholics in another (again, the Western media's judgement). I pounced on this connection, because it is made too seldom in any context, to make the point that to me, as a woman, both are equally wrong because of what their religions authorize men to do women in the name, literally, of everything holy. I did realize you were not making the point that either were right. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:32:14 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: The Ugly Princess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Critique of "The Ugly Princess" Elizabeth, I enjoyed the story. It is well told and well plotted, with smooth prose that moves right along. I think that not only would this work as a YA, but it would also cross-over to adult markets, in both feminist fantasy and feminist romance (It brought to mind Ann Crispin's STARBRIDGE series, which is YA science fiction oriented at young women, but which also crossed-over to the adult market). My biggest comment is that in many places it reads more like a well written synopsis for a novel. It would work as a short story, but you might want to consider expanding it, to show at least some of the events you describe rather than telling. The title of the story works, but it doesn't do justice to your obvious writing talent. It would have been a bit like Ursula LeGuin titling THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS something like A STORY ABOUT GENDER. :-) I loved the business with the King's first warrior wife. Nice job! The twist ending is too clear. I knew right from the start that the heir was going to be beautiful. However, I like the intent I took from the story, that is, that what we perceive as beautiful is relative, and more over, it is how we perceive ourselves that makes the difference. What I gathered was that the young woman had internalized the predjudicial surface value her culture placed on a woman's appearance, so she considered herself unlovable. Is that the intent? If so, I think it works well for the most part, but I would agree with Jessie, that the message sometimes came across a bit more like "Beauty is important" rather than "Culture puts too much value on beauty." I think it works for her to be beautiful, though; it's rather touching, in fact, because it underscores how our perception of ourselves has the biggest effect on how we relate to others. One way to make the ending less expected is to show more how people react to her and tell less. If you expand on the story, it would be interesting to see how she reacts when people discover she is "beautiful." All her life she has assumed she is grotesque (I think; if I've missed the point, then toss the rest of this paragraph out the window! :-). When she discovers people like her beauty, what will that do to her sense of worth? Will it hurt her even more to discover people are more decent to her when they consider her beautiful, even though in fact she is exactly the =same= person as when they all considered her grotesque? Another way to make the ending less obvious would be to tell some of the story through her viewpoint, rather than the distanced third person. That might also make it seem less like a synopsis (though as a novel synopsis, with some tightening, it would work fine). I agree with Lindy that the gently wry humor in the story is effective. It makes for good satire. I would encourage you to do even more with it; you have a real knack for that style. To do it well isn't easy, and you do. Also, it helps underscore the theme of the story in a subtle manner. About the male response; I'm not surprised. According to marketing people I've talked to, a large market exists for novels with this type of story, but that audience is primarily female (which is fine; the last I heard, women buy 75% of the books in this country). It may be because of the feminist slant to such stories. There is also what some men would perceive as a "feminine" or "romantic" slant to the story, which I've discovered they may or may not definine as synonymous with femininst. Traditionally we've been taught not to value stories that emphasize and reward a woman's perspective, so men are rarely exposed to it. Certainly, it's not taught in traditional literature courses, though it appears more now than it did thirty years ago. Such courses tend to teach only those "romantic" stories where the woman (or man) kicks the bucket at the end, eg, Romeo and Juliet, where you get two kicked buckets for the price of one. (One of the campiest bucket-kickers is THE CASTLE OF OTRANTO, by Horace Walpole, Earl of Orford, published in 1764, I think. OTRANTO is the first Gothic novel and an utter hoot. :-) Characterization: You've set up wonderful characters here. They intrigued me. However, they are more sketches, as would be appropriate for an outline. You pulled in my interest, made me want to know more about them: background, likes, dislikes, worries, loves, problems, all the details that round out characters. You've obviously a knack for this sort of thing. I also liked the range of characters. These aren't black and white portrayals. The juxtaposition of the two queens has great potential for development, and also the King's Champion, particularly in comparison with the King. I would have liked to see more development of the Champion's attraction to the princess. The effect of her voice works well, but there needs to be more. What in her personality motivated his love? I had the sense that was the key to the story; it wasn't her looks that attracted him, that made his want her, but her personality. Settings: These could be set more clearly. How do all these places looks, smell, sound, feel? In particular, I wondered about the appearance (although I'm not sure I want to know how the castle smells or tastes. ). Writing: High quality indeed. Where is your fiction published? If it's not, it should be. You've an obvious talent with words. World-building: The story pulled in my interest about the world where it takes place. I wanted to know more about the peoples, customs, land, climate, and so on. Is it a created world, or based in an Earth historical period? The King's Champion and some details about the marriage process suggest the medieval period, but other details suggest a created world. As is, the world feels a bit generic. But that could be easily fixed by fleshing out the details, either historical or created. Title: See above. Also, I'd suggest putting "by [your byline]" right after the title, rather than at the end of the story. Potential markets: I would suggest checking WRITER'S MARKET under the YA listings for short fiction. If you decide to expand it into a novel, I would suggest looking at YA lines, fantasy lines, and romance lines. Have you seen the novel, THE VERY THOUGHT OF YOU, by Lyn Kurland? (not one of her better title choices, but an entertaining read.) The story is about a hot-shot Wall Street corporate type who inadvertently gets himself sent back to medieval Scotland. He stumbles into intrigue between two rival warrior lairds, one of whom turns out to be a woman. She's tall and strong, more so than almost all her men, and considered unattractive for her time. It's a very different story than yours, but has a similar theme. She ends up having to defend said Wall-Street hunk in a number of sword fights (the book did resort to a few stereotypes, but not too many, all things considered; in general it is a lot of fun, with an underlying message about beauty similar to your story). As to whether or not there is a market for such stories; well, on the cover of the book it says "National Bestselling author." :-) From what I've heard, Kurland's work, because she doesn't include explicit sex scenes, crosses over to YA as well. Plot: Works fine for me. My main comment is to introduce more tension about her actual appearance. The story is a bit predictable, but I think that can be dealt with by giving it a more subtle title and showing people's reactions to her rather than telling us she is ugly. Also, if the characterizations are in depth and compelling enough (which I think you can do), most readers won't mind if they can guess the ending. (I did wonder toward the end, though, if the plot was going to take a twist after the marriage and the princess would turn out to be a handsome young man rather than a woman. :-) Hope that helps! Let us know what happens with the story. And thanks for letting us see it. :-) Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:38:23 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Bat Times virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought I sent this to the list a few days ago, but I couldn't figure out if it came through or not. It hasn't appeared in my digests for the past few days, so I'll try it again. Thought you all might get a kick out of it. :-) > From: Stephen R. Donaldson > To: TSRJIM@aol.com; S.T. Wright; Groell, Anne; SYLVA@prodigy.net; Mike > Barrett > Cc: Ginny Browne > Subject: fw: In for Badtimes! > Date: Saturday, September 05, 1998 3:47PM > > >New Virus Warning > >Contributed By: Virus Central > >Archived By: Derek Cashman (dcashman@concentric.net) > > > >This just in : NEW VIRUS WARNING > > > > > >If you receive an e-mail with a subject line of "Badtimes," delete it > >immediately WITHOUT reading it. This is the most dangerous Email virus > >yet. It will re-write your hard drive. Not only that, but it will > >scramble any disks that are even close to your computer. It will recalibrate > > your refrigerator's coolness setting so all your ice cream melts and milk > > curdles. It will demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards, reprogram > > your ATM access code, screw up the racking on your VCR and use > > subspace field harmonics to scratch any CDs you try to play. > > > >It will give your ex-boy/girlfriend your new phone number. It will mix > >antifreeze into your fish tank. It will drink all your beer and leave its > >dirty socks on the coffee table when there's company coming over. It > >will hide your car keys when you are late for work and interfere with > >your car radio so that you hear only static while stuck in traffic. It will > >give you nightmares about circus midgets. It will replace your shampoo > >with Nair and your Nair with Rogaine, all while dating your current > >boy/girlfriend behind your back and billing their hotel rendezvous to > >your Visa card. > > > >It will seduce your grandmother. It does not matter if she is dead, such > >is the power of Badtimes, it reaches out beyond the grave to sully those > >things we hold most dear. Badtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease. It > >will leave the toilet seat up and leave the hairdryer plugged in dangerously > >close to a full bathtub. It will wantonly remove the forbidden tags from > >your mattresses and pillows, and refill your skim milk with whole. > > > >It is insidious and subtle. It is dangerous and terrifying to behold. > >It is also a rather interesting shade of mauve. > > > >These are just a few signs. Be very, very afraid. > > > >PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW!!! > > Stephen R. Donaldson > steverd@umcphq.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:52:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: writers on the list In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hiya, Thanks for the link. I am working with Critters Workshop right now but more as one to critique work coming through the pipeline than actually having much critiquing done to my own work...Am blocking out time as we speak to look at my own work more during the week and weekend in the midst of getting apps rdy for grad school etc...busy busy busy sigh. It is like writer Sharon McCrumb said in Writer's Digest, you have to make the time to do it... Jo Ann At 05:14 PM 10/17/98 +0100, you wrote: >>At 08:04 PM 10/16/98 CST, Jo Ann wrote: >>>I would be very very very interested in joining a small critique group for >>>writers who write in this particular category of fiction, or interested in >>>a forum of writers that would organize such a place to share their work... > >Rebecca wrote: >>If we can get a few small groups going with with like-minded people, I'm >>interested. But I can't make any long term commitments till I meet the >>other folks in the group. > > > Haven't said much lately, but I can't resist poking _my_ head up >for this one.:) I too would be interested in some kind of small critique >group. I'm in the midst of writing a fantasy novel that keeps developing >background and details and characters that take me by surprise. It can be >hard to stay motivated sometimes though, perhaps having some constructive >criticism would help. It's so easy to feel isolated as a writer. > There are groups out there on the Web, but the one I know about >that has a group dealing with Feminist writing has requirements for >reading, critiquing and submitting that I don't feel able to deal with >right now. If you're interested, take a look at the site below. It also >has links to other writing groups. > http://www.geocities.com/~lkraus/workshop/ > > I hope we can work something out. >Monica > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:14:39 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: feminism, fantasy, sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marina, thank you for your articulate response to my crabby post. I really liked how you put some things, and responded to them below: Marina wrote: > I still think that things like _Tank Girl_ should not be rejected > because they sometimes are welcomed by sexist people for the wrong > reasons. That's true-- and I think it can be really powerful to find feminist figures in unlikely places-- kind of like spy work. Everyone has pop culture figures that strike chords in them. For me it's Scully on THe X Files *throb*. I can see how her character is compromised by being pathologized more that Moulder's-- and she more "motherly" etc, But because I love it I can find a way to explain why even that stuff could be seen as feminist-- but only because I love it, you know? > We don't have to be always hated to be right, do > we? This made me laugh at myself! The good punk rocker in me says of course we do! But I'm too old for that. It's true-- that it is great when feminist ideas become accesible to a larger audience (especially when they are not necessarily packaged as feminism! That's really subversive) But still, it's tricky and something that makes me jumpy-- seeing "feminist" aethetics or ideas played out in the mainstream. the fact that feminism became something that > entertainment industry sees as having marketing value, could be seen that > it achieved certain appeal as a political idea. Remeber, ten years ago, > when Gorbachev came up with that glastnost policy, clothes with Soviet > symbols suddenly became popular? Fashion may not have any sense or > meaning, but it can be a good indicator of the change of society's > attitude towards a certain political movement. Yes, I do remember that! It was a kind of thumbing of the nose at the idea of the cold war-- it was ironic. But maybe I'm giving it all too much credit. I guess that's it, that once it hits big time, as a trend, I can only read it as ironic. But don't get me started on irony-- I'll never be quiet! --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:24:13 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princess" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: I > wonder if there'd be interest in some sort of writer's reading/critique group? > It would have to be in some other forum, I suppose, since the length would be > unwieldy. But as a number of people have commented that they're worried that > the mainstream will be (or is) leery of their work, it might be a really good > thing to have a supportive group. I would be interested in this, but I'm not sure about logistics (I'm a technophobe at heart) I think it would be great to have a kind of "support" group to touch base with about motivation, inspration and markets, but reading each other's work is another matter. I'm sure some of us would have more interest in certain work, depending on our tastes and reading habits, etc. Also, as Rebecca pointed out, some working on larger projects that are near completion would need a different kind of reader than the less-time comsuming exchange of short stories, etc. Any ideas of how we could get to know each other more, without bogging down the regular discussion group? --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:34:56 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG: writers in the group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rebecca wrote: > I was completely astonished by Book Two. Walk-ons from Book One, who did > not even have proper names, suddenly became major characters.. I > surrendered to the process and let them work. Isn't that great when the story becomes organic to the writing of it? It's so humbling and mysterious, and such a struggle (for me at least) to reach that point of immersion. > > > What we need is a showcase for stuff that's out of the > ordinary. Yes. Acutally, I was wondering if anyone could turn me on to any writers like Angela Carter, Jeanette Winterson and Rikki Ducornet that are writing alternate histories-- or small presses who are publishing such things? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:37:20 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: writers on list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Burton wrote: > > Rebecca: you might want to look at NovelDoc > (http://www3.hypercon.com/~jilla/noveldoc.html) I tried to go to this, but it said URL not found. Is there another way I could look this site up? Thanks.--A ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:49:42 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Ms.Devilspin (jenn)" Subject: Re: Women as robots In-Reply-To: <3628E3E0.EC7@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Many people have compared the use of robots in popular culture and science fiction as a representation of women's treatment by a modern patriarchal society. What do people here think? ~*If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.*~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:01:11 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Marina wrote: > Northern Ireland > has been a part of the United Kingdom for centuries. And for centuries > before that, it had been a part of sovereign Ireland. So who got more > rights on it? Sorry, Marina, I just have to correct this...! The United Kingdom was tecnically only created at the beginning of the 18th century, with the Union of the kingdoms of England and Scotland; Ireland became part of that United Kingdom with the Act of Union in 1801. (Although it had been ruled by the English kings, partially or wholly, since the 12th century.) Northern Ireland as a political entity was created from the six counties who refused to accept Home Rule in 1922. "Sovereign Ireland" has never existed. Ireland was only united as a political entity between 1801 and 1922; Ireland has never before (or since!) been sovereign. Before the English invasion of 1169, there were about 150 kingdoms at any one time, each of which was "sovereign". A High King of All Ireland appeared occasionally to demand overlordship of the other kings, but only sporadically, and seldom with effect over the whole of Ireland; even so it is dubious whether any High King could ever be called "sovereign" -- he only had limited authority over his subordinate kingdoms... English conquest did more to unite Ireland than any Irishman or woman... and, of course, did its best to divide it too. Sorry for the "history lesson"! Edward .............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK Director, Graduate Centre for Medieval Studies Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 03:44:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: spice girls Suzy MC said: "Also that it's possible to succeed as women with less than wonderful music -- after all, think of all the guy-groups who do fine with rubbish! The aim is still, IMO, for people of any sex to have a fair shot -- even at making lots of $ with junk -- so that we don't stay at the point where women can succeed, but only if they are twice as good, which means that men easily succeed with garbage while women have to struggle like mad to present only the *best*." At last someone with a reasonable (to me) statement about this group. Hating the Spice Girls seems to be as popular a past time as hating Barney, and I have a hard time understanding why. No, their music is not composed by Mozart and Maria Callas is not one of their members. However after listening to way too many "boy" bands filled with monotones, discordance, jumbled rhythms, and worst of all glorification of "smacking my bitch up" or raping or otherwise abusing or just generally humiliating or degrading females in some way I can find nothing to dislike in the Spice Girls. Their songs usually have a recognizable melody, an identifiable rhythm and lyrics supportive of females. I can think of no reason for the popularly expressed hatred except the need to disparage feminine success in any form. (Now what the reason would be for hating that purple dinosaur escapes me.) Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:08:40 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: spice girls Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 18-10-1998 12:44, Joyce Jones said: >I can find nothing to dislike in the Spice Girls. >Their songs usually have a recognizable melody, an identifiable rhythm and >lyrics supportive of females. I can think of no reason for the popularly >expressed hatred except the need to disparage feminine success in any form. Ditto. I actually find them cute and, as disco music goes, they're much better than a lot of trash. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:23:05 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia >English conquest did more to unite Ireland than >any Irishman or woman... and, of course, did its best to divide it too. Something which is also true of the Indian subcontinent (British well outdid the Mogul Emperors) Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:37:47 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princess" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > I >> wonder if there'd be interest in some sort of writer's reading/critique >>group? >> It would have to be in some other forum, I suppose, since the length would be >> unwieldy. But as a number of people have commented that they're worried that >> the mainstream will be (or is) leery of their work, it might be a really good >> thing to have a supportive group. > >I would be interested in this, but I'm not sure about logistics (I'm a >technophobe at heart) I think it would be great to have a kind of >"support" group to touch base with about motivation, inspration and >markets, but reading each other's work is another matter. I'm sure some >of us would have more interest in certain work, depending on our tastes >and reading habits, etc. Also, as Rebecca pointed out, some working on >larger projects that are near completion would need a different kind of >reader than the less-time comsuming exchange of short stories, etc. Any >ideas of how we could get to know each other more, without bogging down >the regular discussion group? >--Allyson Just a suggestion. How about we ask how many other people are interested, collect a list of email addresses and then spend some time getting to know each other by sending messages to everyone on that sub-list, using the CC: space in the email address area? I'd like to at least give it a try. Maybe once we've all talked about what we'd like to do we'll figure out something that works, or maybe not, but at least then we'll know. Monica ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 09:16:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Woolger Subject: Writers mailing lists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just a suggestion for you all - There are several free services out here to create your own mailing lists. Not sure if they have archive capability or not. Never checked them out personally, only heard about them. Maybe one of you organized types could check into that. ;-) Laura ******************************** ** The road is smooth ** ** Why do you throw rocks ** ** before you? ** ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:42:05 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia and Pinochet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 17-10-1998 8:27, Marina said: >What I meant by my particular comparison of Albanian rebels with Irish >Republican Army, is that there is often a very fine line between a >"nation's right for self-determination" and separatism. That's what all >civil wars have been about, including the American one. Yes, but separation comes about only when a fairly large part of the population feels that its rights are violated in a way they find intolerable. We, in italy, have several areas that argue for separatism, but things never get past the folklore. Why is that? Because the german minority in South Tirol is so protected and privileged that if anybody grumbles it's the italians living there; because ethnic minorities have the right to speak their own language, have official document translated into it, have schools that teach their children their own language and so on, and they are treated as citizens, not as legal aliens. Ethnicity is seldom the problem: it becomes one when ethnic origin becomes a reason for discrimination. Once it used to be religion - and N. Irland bears witness to that to this day. Now it's something less logical still, but the reason remains, as far as I can see, that some people have found it politically very rewarding to push their own people toward racial hate. And while I'm at it let me say something about intervening in other countries' internal affairs... Pinochet was arrested yesterday in London and I'm deliriously happy about it. He can only be held accountable for what he did to foreign citizens - Spanish ones, in this case - but still, it's a wonderful day for me and I'm inordinately happy. Once Pinochet was the victim of an assasination attempt and he survived unscathed. The same day, some temple (i forgot which denomination) burned in turkey with some hundreds of people in it. What happend today made me think that human justice is much better than the divine one. There *is* justice after all - but only if we humans can enforce it. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:47:49 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 17-10-1998 2:40, Marina said: > For the last several years, the press coverage was so >focused on "bad" Serbs and "good" guys on the other sides, deeply >installing the idea of Serbs as "Nazis", that I don't think they as a >nation stand a chance of even being considered as humans in need of >protection. And nonetheless, Serbian refugees from the Kraijna have been helped and protected by the EC Commitee for refugees. I have, of course, only the chair's say-so about it, but she's usually a honorable woman, Ms. Emma Bonino. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:47:42 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 17-10-1998 1:48, Marina said: >There is simply no way possible that one side in a conflict like this can >be any better or worse than another. Why would it be? What would prevent >Muslim Bosnians from committing the same crimes as Serbs, some genetical >predisposition to cruelty present only in the DNA of Serbs? The fact that they didn't have the guns. I have never said that bosnians (which are not, I repeat, muslim) are good guys. I just said that they are victims. They are victims because they didn't have an army comparable with that the Serbian nationalists had. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:25:19 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: Fake/real violence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 16-10-1998 5:46, Julieanne * said: >Whereas in Europe, eg Italy and Spain - where their TV/film >rarely show scenes of car-chases and dangerous driving, their 'reality' is >car-chases and dangerous driving!! Well... not exactely. We are exposed to the same amount of car chasing people in the USA are - we get much the same tv shows and movies, after all. (But not the SF. I don't know why, but people in Italy have never shown any enthusiasm whatsoever for either Star Trek, Doctor Who, Babylon Five, or anything like it. They go crazy for soaps, they are suckers for cops shows unless it's Hill Street Blues which is consequently aired at 3.00 am, but no SF. They like sf *movies* as much as the rest of Europe, but no tv. And no books either. I'm still wondering why. Oh yes, and they don't like Pratchett. Too much humor in our political life already, I suppose. :-) In the rest of Europe sf is popular, from what I hear. Swedes love it, French even write it, Germans translate a lot of it, and there used to be a *huge* market in the Eastern Countries. I don't know about Spain, though.) And though we *are* terribly indisciplined drivers and we drive a whole lot more quickly than in the USA (driving there has been for me an hypnotizing esperience...) the reality of Italian highways is not exactely like Lethal Weapon. I've never seen a car chase in my life! Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:25:12 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: Writers mailing lists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 18-10-1998 15:16, Laura Woolger said: >Just a suggestion for you all - > >There are several free services out here to create your own mailing lists. >Not sure if they have archive capability or not. Never checked them out >personally, only heard about them. Maybe one of you organized types could >check into that. ;-) They put advertisment on top of each message though, and I for one wouldn't stand for that. I'm sent crazy by advertisment. I manage a small home-made workshop group for Italian SF stories. It's possibile to do it without having access to a server if the group is small. Right now there are about 50 subscribers and it seems to work quite well. Basically, I have people write me an e-mail with a particular subject (itacritter, in my case), and my emailer automatically puts the address into a group called Itacritter and sends an answer to the person telling him or her that she's subscribed. It's not difficult to do with filters. They send me stories and I send one every two weeks to all the people whose address is in the group. They send me the critiques, I put them all together and send them to the group. Usually the writer answers to the critiques received and occasionally there's a little bit of discussion on generalities. All it takes is for people to "reply to all" the senders when they want to communicate with the group. The problem now is that there are more people willing to criticise than people willing to send stories so I have stories whose authors have not contributed any critique and people who have sent critiques and no stories and right now I'm stuck (there is a rule according to which you have to have critiqued at least 3 stories on the last 4 for your story to be circulated). So I have tried to encourage people to send back critiques and the result is that people are writing me asking for the past 24 stories and the past 24 critiques digests... I'm working on a way to put them on the web, but I need password protection and therefore the collaboration of my webmaster. But apart from that, it doesn't take much work. If you're interested, it's all at http://www.fantascienza.com/sfcity/itacritter but it's in Italian, I'm afraid. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:09:39 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princess" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/18/98 5:33:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mmnorman@MACLINE.CO.UK writes: << Just a suggestion. How about we ask how many other people are interested, collect a list of email addresses and then spend some time getting to know each other by sending messages to everyone on that sub-list, using the CC: space in the email address area? >> Yes! Lets do it! Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:21:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: FSFFU writers' list In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:09:39 EDT." <8e9ef9e1.362a2ee3@aol.com> I'll volunteer to collect names, and I can set up a list, too. No ads, even. By the time all the names trickle in, anyway. Send 'em in! And then we can talk about logistics, etc. Maybe different lists for shorter and longer works? Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:19:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT -- Re: [*FSFFU*] Marina defense fund In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jane, Thank you for developing this strategy. It sounds like a great plan :). These are the news: On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > Marina, I'm glad to hear that you have a reliable lawyer, although I'm sorry she's in Cleveland and it's far away. As I wrote yesterday, I talked to my boss, who works on human rights issues. She recommended that if you need advice, Marina, you e-mail the University of Minnesota Center for Human Rights (humanrts@gold.tc.umn.edu) or that you email direct to the co-chair, David Weissbrodt (weiss001@maroon.tc.umn.edu). Done :). I emailed them today, asking for advice and possible assistance. I'll let you know as soon as I hear from them. > > Now, I've been trying to strategize about this business of writing to senators. I'd suggest that those of us on the list who wnat to and are US citizens write letters by hand (it's so easy to send email to political figures that it doesn't always count for as much) to the senators for OK and to the Rep for Marina's district. (Marina, do you know who this is? Or your district number?) I just found out today: It's district number 5. The congressperson is Ernest Istook, Jr. Tel: (202) 225-2132 Fax: (202) 226-1463 Adress: 119 Cannon House Office Bldg. Washington, DC 20515 District phone (in Oklahoma): (405) 942-3636 The senators for Oklahoma are Don Nickles and James Inhofe. I don't have their addresses, but you have already posted them. >I'd also suggest that when we write these letters we download and include some articles on conditions in Tadjikistan. Later on we may want to telephone their offices or fax them. (I'm not trying to be controlling here, or claiming that my ideas are the best ones, I'm just throwing some ideas out about how this kind of thing might be done. I have done pressure campaign type stuff before, though, so I'm not totally guessing. Please feel totally free to improve my ideas.) I think your suggestions are very helpful. It's great to know someone who knows how to go about those things. > > Marina, if people are going to write these letters, I'm wondering if you could give us your last name and a few dates about how long you've been here. Also, although I know you posted it, my computer had a meltdown, and I no longer remember all the details of how you came to the US. Your family was resettled in Tajikistan from Russia, right? Ok. My full name is Marina Yereshenko. I came to US four years ago, as an exchange student at the University of Oklahoma, and later decided to get my degree there. In my second year, I tried to report sexual harassment in the University Food Service, where I was working, and after they closed it the second time, I tried to file a lawsuit. When the folks at the school found out about that, they got me suspended ans called Immigration on me, so I almost got deported. The local news people interfered and OU officials had to back off. I transferred to another school, but because of all that mess, my immigration documents were not filed properly (by my new school) which is why I cannot work in US as a "trainee" like other international students, and why my immigration status is pretty iffy in general. I have applied for political asylum this March, but it was denied by INS. Right now, my lawyer is working on resubmitting my application, which I'm afraid is my last chance. Concerning my family, my grandparents ended up in Tajikistan during Stalin's purges of 1930's. As farmers, they were accused of being "rich", robbed of all their property, and forcibly moved to Tajikistan in cargo reailroad cars along with hundreds of other people. They dumped them in the middle of a desert about ten miles north from Afghanistan border and told them that's where they were going to live. The was no water, no shelter, no medical care. The prisoners of this "resettelment camp" had to build big common shacks out of bamboo, and had water brought in rusty cisterns until they dug the irrigation canals. The was 40 to 45 degrees Celcium that Summer, which is more than 100 Fahrenheit, while most of people were from Northern Areas of Russia. All children younger than 10, people older than 45, and everyone who was sick has died during that first Summer. Those who survived, turned the desert of Vakhsh Valley into the main agricultural area of Tajikistan. That whole district has been built up by the "forced resettlers" like my grandmother, who was among those who was building all those canals since she was 16 years old, and later worked on the cotton plantations her whole life. But you won't find any of those people there anymore. Because they were not "natives" of Tajikistan, and when the country became independent, they have been told to "go back where they came from". Well, they have been told that their whole lifes, including the third-generation Tajikistan residents like me, who was born and raised there, and so did their parents. But in 1990, this street-level hate talk turned into riots. When hundreds of people, including little children, were beaten, raped, and tortured by crazed crowds of Islamic fundamentalists -- just for being Russian, or for wearing European clothing, and everyone -- the local governement and the Moscow press alike said that "there were no victims", most of us kind of realized that one day, we all gonna get slaughtered, and no one in the world will even notice. Because we were Russians in a non-Russian republic, and with the Soviet Union breaking up, everyone would be much happier if we never existed. In other words, my family has been thrown around for the last 70 years, and I think it's about time for that to stop. This is why I want to stay here. I like the United States, with all the crazy things that happen here sometimes. And I feel at home in this coutry more than I had anywhere else. Tajikistan definetly does not want me, and if I have to go there, I don't expect anything except getting killed like many other Russian women. > > On the limited information that I gave my boss, she said that it sounded like ethnic Russians in Tajikistan were a repressed minority and that angle might be worth playing. Well, I tried to tell that to the INS in my first application. Their basic response was "this is really sad what's going on, but the US Department of State does not recognize Russians as a repressed minority, so we cannot either". Maybe i just was not good enough in presenting hte case, I don't know. After all, I am not a lawyer, hard as I might try. > > Next question. Is there some kind of left wing type group in Oklahoma City? The only one I know of is Amnesty International. I will call them. > > Later today I'll be talking to my friend the organizer for CISPES. I'll t ry to get some tips on media stuff from her. How did you get media attention the last time? A friend of mine had a cousin who worked in the local paper, who gave me the phone number of their news room. The guy who answered the phone became interested in the story. He later won a bunch of awards for covering my case, and as a result, got a better job in Tulsa. So he is not here anymore. We'll se if I can find someone else. > Also, I still think talking to the INS would be worth while, if we can figure out how to do it. The last time I've heard from my lawyer, she said they were waiting for some country reports. She had told me the application could be resubmited either to the INS, or directly to an immigration judge. Whenever I found out whom exactly they are going to contact, I will let you know. Thank you again for all your support and advice. Let's hope something works out :) Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:30:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia, Ireland In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Edward James wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Marina wrote: > > > Northern Ireland > > has been a part of the United Kingdom for centuries. And for centuries > > before that, it had been a part of sovereign Ireland. So who got more > > rights on it? > > Sorry, Marina, I just have to correct this...! The United Kingdom was > tecnically only created at the beginning of the 18th century, with the > Union of the kingdoms of England and Scotland; I stand corrected. Thank you about the information on this matter. However, it does not change the fact that many Irish people saw English rule as oocupation. Kosovo has never been as sovereign country either. And benefits of a country's unity vs. resentment of the "occupation" by the empire that united it, is a topic of debate everywhere where separatism/ethnic self-determination exists. I live in American South. There are people here who still consider themselves "occupied" by the North for the last hundred years. And they won't hear anyone telling them otherwise. The point is, what really had happened in history rarely matters. People tend to see only the parts that prove what they believe. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:41:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia In-Reply-To: <19981018144737.OXEW11735.fep03-svc@[212.216.34.217]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Elethiomel wrote: > At 17-10-1998 1:48, Marina said: > > >There is simply no way possible that one side in a conflict like this can > >be any better or worse than another. Why would it be? What would prevent > >Muslim Bosnians from committing the same crimes as Serbs, some genetical > >predisposition to cruelty present only in the DNA of Serbs? > > The fact that they didn't have the guns. I have never said that bosnians > (which are not, I repeat, muslim) are good guys. I just said that they > are victims. They are victims because they didn't have an army > comparable with that the Serbian nationalists had. Well, that's what they'd like you to believe. The "smaller" army of Bosnains did not get in their way of creating war brothels with captive women in them, did it? Or was it Ok, as long the women they raped were Serbs, with their "superiority complex"? That would teach them how to think they had saved Europe in 14th century, wouldn't it? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:50:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: OT - homofobia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know if you all heard about the guy in Wyoming who was tortured to death by a group of local teenagers because he was gay. I've heard that a lot of gay/lesbian organizations get phones calls from people who say that those kids "did the right thing" by killing him. There is an email address put up by the hospital where he died, where people can send messages of support to his family among all this mess. It's mshepard@libra.pvh.org Just thought you might be interested. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:34:11 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have a copy of the wonderful sermon done at Trinity College on Matthew Shephard's murder. I think it would be appropriate to post it to this list. It is good and should be seen everywhere. Am I right? phoebe zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:35:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit reflections on Matthew Shepard Subject: From the Chaplain of Trinity College, Hartford, CT Chaplain's Reflection I saw on the news today that Matthew Shepard died. He was the 22 year old man from Wyoming who was beaten and tortured and left to die for no reason other than he was a homosexual. This tragic murder has raised a national debate again, the kind of periodic soul-searching our society goes through whenever a crime of hate startles us into awareness. The burning of Black churches, the bombing of innocent people, the death of a shy young man from Wyoming: these events suddenly shake us out of complacency and remind us that fear, prejudice and rage are always the shadows just beyond the light of our reason. And so people suddenly start to speak out. There are voices of outrage and grief. Voices of sorrow and demands to know why such a thing could happen. And predictably, there are also defensive voices: the governor of Wyoming trying to explain why his state has no laws to protect people from hate crimes and the leadership of what is called the Christian right wing? trying to explain why their national ads against homosexuality don't influence people to commit such violence against gays and lesbians. In the days to come, these many voices will fill our media and the cultural consciousness it imprints until we are once again lulled into the more familiar patterns of our lives, dozing off as a nation until the next tragedy rings the alarm of despair. As the chaplain for our own community, I would like to invite us all to consider Matthew's death in another way. Not through the clamor or denials, not through the shouts or cries of anger: but rather, through the silence of his death, the silence of that young man hanging on his cross of pain alone in the emptiness of a Wyoming night, the silence that ultimately killed him as surely as the beatings he endured. Silence killed Matthew Shepard. The silence of Christians who know that our scriptures on homosexuality are few and murky in interpretation and far outweighed by the words of a savior whose only comment on human relationships was to call us to never judge but only to love. The silence of well meaning educated people who pretend to have an enlightened view of homosexuality while quietly tolerating the abuse of gays and lesbians in their own communities. The silence of our elected officials who have the authority to make changes but prefer to count votes. The silence of the majority of straight Americans who shift uncomfortably when confronted by the thought that gays and lesbians may be no different from themselves, save for the fact that they are walking targets for bigotry, disrespect, cheap humor, and apparently, of murder. Crimes of hate may live in shouts of rage, but they are born in silence. Here at Trinity, I hope we will all listen to that silence. Before we jump to decry Matthew?s senseless death or before we seek to rationalize it with loud disclaimers: I hope we will just hear the silence. A young man's heart has ceased to beat. Hear the silence of that awful truth. It is the silence of death. It is the silence that descends on us like a shroud. At Trinity, as in Wyoming, we are men and women surrounded by the silence of our own fear. Our fear of those who are different. Our fear of being identified with the scapegoat. Our fear of taking an unpopular position for the sake of those who can not stand alone. Our fear of social and religious change. Our fear comes in many forms but it always comes silently. A whispered joke. A glance to look away from the truth. A quick shake of the head to deny any complicity in the pain of others. These silent acts of our own fear of homosexuality are acted out on this campus every day just as they are acted out every day in Wyoming. Through silence, we give ourselves permission to practice what we pretend to abhor. With silence, we condemn scores of our neighbors to live in the shadows of hate. In silence, we observe the suffering of any group of people who have been declared expendable by our society. As a person of faith, I will listen, as we all will, to the many voices which will eulogize Matthew Shepard. I will carry that part of our national shame on my shoulders. But I will also listen to the silence which speaks much more eloquently still to the truth behind his death. I will listen and I will remember. And I will renew my resolve never to allow this silence to have the last word. Not for Matthew. Not for gay men or lesbian women. Not for any person in our society of any color or condition who has been singled out for persecution. Not in my church. Not in my nation. Not in Wyoming. And not at Trinity College. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:58:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John & Jessica Connor Subject: Other SF writers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDFAD1.B5380C20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDFAD1.B5380C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I, too, am quite new to this list, but to respond to Allyson, I am also = a writer, both of SF and other genres. I agree that there is a problem = finding agents interested in this area, and I really hope this changes! = Allyson, your work sounds fascinating. How far along are you? My = current project is in the character-formation stage right now, so it's = not developed enough yet to talk about, but I'd love to hear more about = your (and any other writers') current writing projects! --Jessica ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDFAD1.B5380C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I, too, am quite new to this list, = but to=20 respond to Allyson, I am also a writer, both of SF and other = genres.  I=20 agree that there is a problem finding agents interested in this area, = and I=20 really hope this changes!  Allyson, your work sounds = fascinating.  How=20 far along are you?  My current project is in the = character-formation stage=20 right now, so it's not developed enough yet to talk about, but I'd love = to hear=20 more about your (and any other writers') current writing = projects!
 
--Jessica
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDFAD1.B5380C20-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:27:27 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well said, Anna. I have been bothered by some of the comments made about this situation that seem to imply either that it is the Serbs fault that the women there have been tortured and raped, or that the Serbs should be excused for their own torturing and raping because it was done to them. In my humble opinion, the Serbs have less of an "excuse" for the torturing and raping they are doing precisely because it was done to them--they KNOW the horrendous effects this has on people, yet they perpetuate it. As human beings we should hold all who engage in this behavior responsible for their actions and not allow them to be "excused" for any reason. I don't have any easy answers to this, but I know it sickens me that someone would hurt another person just because that other person isn't exactly like them. It sickens me more that someone who knows the effects of torture and rape personally can turn around and do it to someone else--and use their own bad experience as an excuse for their bad bbehavior. It's the same as when a child abuser excuses (or tries to excuse) their behavior because "I was abused as a child". Yes, bad things happen to people, and, yes, it does color how those people think and react to things; but people still have choices and when they make a bad choice they should be held accountable for that choice, no matter what bad thing may have happened in their past. What is missing in the situation about Bosnia and other similar situations all over our globe is, as Anna said, justice. Not vengeance, not punishment, but justice. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:27:29 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-10-16 19:56:31 EDT, you write: << 127 victims a day would not be even newsworthy. Is anyone going to cry for those children? >> I know I will. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:32:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: OT - homofobia -------------< COMMENTS BY Jobe >-------------- had to route this through a weird server hehe ----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Jobe >---------- Received: from yqpylklg [206.133.240.44] by WGSERVER.Silent-Running.com with smtp id BBBOANAK ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:30:12 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981017172619.007d18b0@silent-running.com> X-Sender: Jobe@silent-running.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:26:19 -0700 To: jobe@silent-running.com From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OT - homofobia >From: Jo Ann Rangel >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OT - homofobia >In-Reply-To: >References: > >Nod, it's been in all the newspapers and especially with certain religious groups who planned to stage protests at the funeral against his "chosen lifestyle" > >It has been discussed on several talk radio stations, of which one I do listen to while here at the keyboard...its been rather interesting to hear consensus from most of the straight males who call in to say that what happened to the guy should not be considered a hate crime because of the young man's sexual orientation, but that it was a murder plain and simple...thus the special circumstances of pursing prosecution as it being a hate crime should not apply. Just my own reaction came to mind, when is the last time we have heard of someone killing a man because is he a man...I mean is there a group of females out there who singles out a guy, gets him to go to a bar with them, then out of some deep seeded belief that he lives a lifestyle that includes having sexual relations with women, decides to get him in a position where they can end his life and leave his body in a humilating position as a point of reference to anyone to walk across the murderscene? Oh I almost forgot there are protesters are their not of people who object that the man who was the victim should not have been living his lifestyle of pursuing the females in his chosen lifestyle? hmmm yes am being facetious and yes, this murder bothered me a great deal. All of a sudden this murder victim is the poster child for people who believe their children are being recruited by homosexuals and that the lesson is to make sure their children do not become a victim like this young man who ended up the way he did. It bothers me their implication that his sexual orientation contributed to the justification of the act perpetrated against him...how different would the outrage have been if the victim was female and gay? Would the press coverage been as strong or the protestors so inclined to show up at the service? > >It gets too scary to speculate the outcomes after seeing the truth in front of me 8( > >Jo Ann > > > > > >At 03:50 PM 10/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I don't know if you all heard about the guy in Wyoming who was tortured to >>death by a group of local teenagers because he was gay. I've heard that >>a lot of gay/lesbian organizations get phones calls from people who >>say that those kids "did the right thing" by killing him. >> >>There is an email address put up by the hospital where he died, where >>people can send messages of support to his family among all this mess. >>It's >> >>mshepard@libra.pvh.org >> >>Just thought you might be interested. >> >>Marina >> >>http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html >> >> "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society >> is selling at the time." >> Naomi Wolf >> >> ----------------------------------------------------- Silent Running BBS, Riverside, California. 2 MajorMUD games, 3 LORD games and 2 Tradewars games WWW.Silent-Running.com / Telnet:Silent-Running.com 909-343-2030 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Women as robots In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981018164942.006caa34@hemlock.newcastle.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Ms.Devilspin (jenn) wrote: > Many people have compared the use of robots in popular culture and science > fiction as a representation of women's treatment by a modern patriarchal > society. What do people here think? > > ~*If you're not living on the edge, > you're taking up too much space.*~ > Sometimes this is obviously the author's intent. See Fritz Lang and Thea von Harbou's early Metropolis, Ira Levin's The Stepford Wives or, more recently, Amy Thomson's Virtual Girl. See also Lester del Rey's early "classic" "Helen O'Loy" for a story where it's being done without the author being aware that he's doing it. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:45:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: writers on list and "The Ugly Princ In-Reply-To: <2059320@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ICQ is easy to download and install though I haven't had much experience chatting in real time. We use it to pass notes around the office. It's a hoot, sometimes. At home I'm 18187562 Rebecca At 08:23 PM 10/17/98 CST, you wrote: >I would be interested in this, but I'm not sure about logistics (I'm a >technophobe at heart) I think it would be great to have a kind of >"support" group to touch base with about motivation, inspration and >markets, but reading each other's work is another matter. I'm sure some >of us would have more interest in certain work, depending on our tastes >and reading habits, etc. Also, as Rebecca pointed out, some working on >larger projects that are near completion would need a different kind of >reader than the less-time comsuming exchange of short stories, etc. Any >ideas of how we could get to know each other more, without bogging down >the regular discussion group? >--Allyson > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:11:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG: writers in the group In-Reply-To: <2059330@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Isn't that great when the story becomes organic to the writing of it? >It's so humbling and mysterious, and such a struggle (for me at least) >to reach that point of immersion. > Didn't feel that way in during the process. The orginal synopsis covered the first four years in a young queen's reign. Roughly 150 pages per year. The story was pretty straightforward. A young woman discovers that she is the guardian of a long-prophecied queen. She is supposed to take the child crosscountry to the Steward, get her heart broke, come home and embark on her career as Wicked Witch of the West. Child's mother sets off with a hero and a bunch of freedom fighters. WWW and the child's father wreck havoc on the pretenders to the Seal and set up a lot of bad karma for the queen. Steward and icy spouse try to remake the child in their own mold. Mom dies, and hero step-dad brings the child clues about her own identity. What happened: Guardian and child get stuck on the prairie while hero step-dad gets cold feet about taking on Mom and soon-to-be baby brother. He goes off to look after his own kids--who can't stand the sight of him. This story is getting longer and longer and I am thinking, okay. One year. I'll get my guardian home and back and Mom goes off with the hero and we'll rethink the other three years. And the middle gets longer and longer... And now I have six people criss-crossing the country, and the action is getting so complicated that I have a calendar on my knee and before I can write a scene I have to plot where everybody is. And it gets longer and longer, and I am fighting to get my heroine to the palace--and everybody just stopped talking to me. STOPPED TALKING TO ME. For about two weeks. Finally I surrendered and 10 people announced they were going to go chase a serial killer. Excuse me, but where does it say anything in the outline about a serial killer? WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A SERIAL KILLER? And they said, Oh, yeah, we told you two weeks ago that the book wasn't "real life" because it didn't have any serial killers. So we thought we'd help you out. See, the serial killer is possessed by a demon, but the good gals are possessed by goddesses-- Excuse me, I am trying to get to the PALACE? Yeah, and she's going to get her heart broke...bummer! And all of your gay and bisexual people have turned out to psychos so we are going to introduce this gay guy who's really cool, and there's romance in the air and while you are at it, would you please go back to Book One and put in an extra chapter about him? If that's not too much trouble? So when they finally let me get to the palace, I said ENOUGH! She gets her heart broke in the next book. And yes, I am going back to Book One to see if I can put this guy in without gumming up the pace. But at the moment I have lost the book with all character sketches and I don't know how old he is. So some days, yes, I stand in awe of the mysteries of secondary creation and some days I just grit my teeth and bear with them. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:37:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: FSFFU writers' list In-Reply-To: <2060015@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hathor@flink.com multi-volume (volumious?)fantasy with a lot of pseudo-historical detail. I read Donaldson, Goodkind, some Tad Williams, some Kay, a little Modesitt, loved Deeds of Paksenarrion. Dislike Brooks, Edding, Dragonlance stuff. Bored past tears with Robert Jordan. I've been writing for over thirty years--spent about 15 years in writers groups--and I don't have much patience with newbies. (I've been battling chronic depression for forty years, which is why I'm one of the best unpublished writers in the country. :-)) I could use a support group, but when it comes to critiquing, I'm a werewolf trying to go vegetarian. Please don't give me a manuscript and ask me what I think of your precious child! I'll give you back fajitas and we will both feel real bad! Rebecca At 02:22 PM 10/18/98 CST, you wrote: >I'll volunteer to collect names, and I can set up a list, too. No ads, >even. By the time all the names trickle in, anyway. Send 'em in! And >then we can talk about logistics, etc. Maybe different lists for >shorter and longer works? > >Jessie > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:06:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Comments: cc: m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18 Oct 98, at 15:50, Marina wrote: > I don't know if you all heard about the guy in Wyoming who was tortured to > death by a group of local teenagers because he was gay. I've heard that a > lot of gay/lesbian organizations get phones calls from people who say that > those kids "did the right thing" by killing him. Punishing the death through the living has always struck me as being one of the dark sides of US politics. A friend of mine was born postumously in 1970 after her father was killed in Vietnam. After her father's death, her mother was plagued by telephone calls from an anti-war protestor saying that her husband deserved to die and how she (the protestor) hoped that his child would be born handicapped. This particular protestor was briefly famous in the early-80s women's movement. I say US because I've almost never heard of this happening elsewhere. The only such incident I know of in Europe was the brief attempt to attack the families of Protestant Ulstermen serving in the Falklands. The IRA put a stop to it by, I understand, threatening to kneecap the participants. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 02:43:07 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: OT - homofobia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthea Hartley Stanton said: > Punishing the death through the living has always struck me as being one of > the dark sides of US politics. > > I say US because I've almost never heard of this happening elsewhere. > Well, I can't let that go by without comment... I would have thought that the entire history of Europe -- if not the rest of the world -- can be explained in part as a practice of "punishing the dead through the living"....or else how are we to explain all the treatment of the descendants of the enemy, whoever it happened to be? If this is only a custom in the US, then why are enmities traditionally handed down from generation to generation in other parts of the world? When you come right down to it isn't a large part of what is going on in the former Yugoslavia due to ancient feudal hatreds, all that "because the Turks ransacked our town six hundred years ago" stuff? And before everyone jumps on me yes I know that that's not the _only_ reason that there is strife in the Balkans -- please note that I said "in part." > The only > such incident I know of in Europe was the brief attempt to attack the families > of Protestant Ulstermen serving in the Falklands. The IRA put a stop to it by, > I understand, threatening to kneecap the participants. > I know nothing of the particular incident which you recount, but I find it hard to believe that the IRA would threaten to put a stop to anyone injuring the families of Protestant Ulstermen -- who were their "enemies" -- nor that the attacking of families on both sides of the NI troubles was exactly unknown and only "briefly" made an appearance during the Falkland War. I also don't know who the "prominent in feminist circles" person was who harassed that poor pregnant woman, since you don't state a name, but she sounds as if she was a very disturbed individual and I hope she got some treatment for her misplaced anger. Unfortunately cruelty and brutality aren't exclusively American diseases -- if they were those of us who were psychically sound and wanted to live free of fears of attack could simply leave the US and go live in some other, more Utopian part of the world. Lilith -- "That's 'Dr. Evil'; I didn't go to evil school for six years just to be called 'Mister.'" -- from Austin Powers -- Man of Mystery ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:33:47 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia, Ireland In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Marina wrote: > > The point is, what really had happened in history rarely matters. People > tend to see only the parts that prove what they believe. > I fully agree with you there. And, in an effort to get this back to sf and fantasy, I am just half-way through a re-reading of G.G. Kay's TIGANA. There's some very powerful stuff there about nationalism, occupation and the like: I wish that rather more fantasy writers had Kay's sense of involvement with basic moral problems... Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Fake/real violence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Now, I would argue that our society is considerably different from Ancient Greece. (and of course, they were slave holders, intensely xenophobic, and rather sexist. I always hope they weren't the pinnacle of human civilization. Which is not to say that we have nothing to learn from them, or that it's all been a lovely uphill climb since then. Just that the myth of the uber-civilized ancient greeks is..well...a myth) As I recollect my Lewis Mumford, the Greeks lived near the sea in small city-states. They gave us the idea of the polis and a lot of fine civic duty stuff. They were sea-farers, and identified strongly with their city's identity. They also had slaves; the cultured life of Athens was possible because there were lots of barbarian slaves to do the dirty work. As I recollect, one of the major Greek philosophers held that some people were natural slaves. I think it was Aristotle (I'm reaching back back to a freshman college course) who wrote about the ideal city-state, which was small, somewhat isolated, and had a coherent population. Not unlike the world's first democracy (well sorta) the althing of early Iceland. Being warriors, slave holders, and sailors, the Greeks had lots of violent excitement in their lives. And lots of wars, there's plenty of contemporary text about them. Also, as I recall, Greek drama did not have on-stage violence. It was all shrieks in the background and people entering waving bloody daggers. The catharsis was in the pity and terror (or "tragedy") of the plot rather than in watching the guts hit the screen. Now, I think matters would be different in terms of TV violence if we all lived in small city-states with coherent identites and had a certain amount of personal violence--war, slaves, sailing--as the background of our lives. For one thing, we'd know far more of the people we had the potential to be violent too, which would probably minimze (although I don't believe eradicate) the issue. For another, we'd have a more real feeling for the consequences of violence, which the Burbclave dwellers who watch shoot-em-ups generally don't. (Snowcrash reference...icky and bad) Those of us who were free male citiznes (who were probably most of the playgoers in Ancient Greece) would also have a lot more say in political affairs than most people do today. In short, my concern with violence on film is its exploitive, voyeuristic quality, rather than the simple fact of it. And I really wonder how utopian Ancient Greece was anyway. We have limited text, all written by a certain class of man. >>> Elizabeth Burton 10/16 11:38 AM >>> It's called "catharsis" and has been the basis of drama since classical Greece. The entire basis of Greek theater, in fact, was that a comedy or drama must have as its goal the relief of those emotions that daily society did not permit one to express. Unlike many modern societies, which like to pretend we've all gotten far too civilized to have all those nasty negative emotions, the Greeks knew that we are all great bundles of contradiction: love and hate, fear and courage, joy and pain. If we have harmless ways of releasing the negative emotions, like drama and athletics, we will be better able to express the positive, preferred ones. Now, of course, we say that all that violence causes *more* violence, overlooking the fact that the people who act out fantasy violence have serious problems to begin with. With that in mind, it isn't surprising that each individual or culture enjoys the particular brand of fantasy that most expresses what they can't. The child who lives with violence needs a quiet home and a loving family. The one who already has that needs drama that expresses for him or her those unpermitted thoughts and behaviors. As for the Japanese fixation on violent game shows -- sounds a lot like *The Running Man*, doesn't it. Lisa Xanadu Scriveners http://members.tripod.com/~Borogrove/editor.html Pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/16062745 ICQ SFF Writers' Group http://groups.icq.com/group.asp?no=409617 The Dance of Light and Magic http://www.delphi.com/Castle_of_Light -----Original Message----- From: Julieanne * >To my mind, its an issue of the human psychological need for "fantasy", as >well as a need to indulge or experience the entire range of human emotion. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:04:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft wrote: > I have been bothered by some of the comments made about this situation that > seem to imply either that it is the Serbs fault that the women there have been > tortured and raped, or that the Serbs should be excused for their own > torturing and raping because it was done to them. I don't think anyone meant that. The only hope for the former Yugoslavia is if all people are protected from war crimes equally, so they all feel safe without "doing to others as had been done to them." Concerning the Serbs, so far it's the Muslims who excuse their actions by saying that "Serbs did it to them first," which seems perfectly accepted by the Western press. In any case, the only way to resolve this issue is have the war criminals punished for what they did, not for their etnicity and its "comparative evilness". Othewise, it will be the same as when people of one race get a sentence twice the lentgh as a person of another race who commited the same crime. It does not create anything but more resentment and hostility between the races, nations, or any other sort of ethnic groups treated unequally. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:44:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elizabeth Burton Subject: Re: Fake/real violence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Each culture's "art" will reflect the level of that culture's society and technology. The Greeks kept all the violence offstage (which rule was observed for most of the history of classical-style theater). Your comment that the size of the city-states might be a factor is well taken, especially when you consider that the next Great Civilization -- Rome -- gave lip service to classical Greek theater and gave the multitudes bloody sport in the arena. Much is made of the fact that media violence isn't like the gladiatorial violence of Rome because the audience is distant from it. But the audience in the Roman arena was separated from the *actual*violence, too, if only by the emotional distance of "them" and "us." Of course excessive media violence is appalling, but to me the hypocrisy of it is as bad as the bloodshed. News media "clean up" their reporting of atrocities so that viewers never see the true tragedy of war and mayhem. It's bad taste to show dead kids and body parts. Unless you're watching Halloween H2O. So we go on having wars and talking about the excessive violence on TV and in the movies. Just spend an hour looking at pictures of Nazi death camps. Now there's a real horror show -- and I've seen nothing to lead me to believe the present conditions in the "strife-torn" areas are any better. Lisa Xanadu Scriveners http://members.tripod.com/~Borogrove/editor.html Pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/16062745 ICQ SFF Writers' Group http://groups.icq.com/group.asp?no=409617 The Dance of Light and Magic http://www.delphi.com/Castle_of_Light -----Original Message----- From: Jane Franklin >Now, I would argue that our society is considerably different from Ancient Greece. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Fake/real violence In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > Now, I would argue that our society is considerably different from Ancient Greece. (and of course, they were slave holders, intensely xenophobic, and rather sexist. I always hope they weren't the pinnacle of human civilization. Which is not to say that we have nothing to learn from them, or that it's all been a lovely uphill climb since then. Just that the myth of the uber-civilized ancient greeks is..well...a myth) In my Women's History class, I've learned that the most "advanced" stage of Greek society was accompanied by taking all the remaining rights women used to have. It became required for a woman to completely cover her body and illegal to leave home by herself. Just like in Taliban's Afghanistan now (even though it might be the only thing in common). Also, many of the most remarkable philosophers of classic Greece used their writing talents to prove that women are not fit to be even an object of a man's love. That the only "true love" can be "that felt to a young boy", and the feelings towards a woman were more like "a fly's 'love' of sweet syrup." So no matter how civilized the classic Greece was, unless we caught in its earler, not-so-civilized state, there would be little opportunity for us to enjoy much of its civilization, I'm afraid. Concerning the violence in modern mass culture, I agree with you on its "voyeristic" nature. However, I think the original post was more on why it was so attractive to people in "safe" societies. People in messed up countries like movie violence, too. I've heard that Jean-Claude Van Damm is the biggest hero in Tajikistan right now (back when I lived there, it was more Stallone and Swartzenegger. Their portraits were everywhere -- on the walls of stores, barber shops, buses. It had nothing to do with advertizing -- people dragged their own posters to their shops and such to look at their heroes at work. Maybe becasue everyone was so scared for their lives, the image of a tough guy who could take care of any number of enemies was so attractive, whatever). However, the real violence -- in TV news, for example, is not popular at all. No one would want to watch a show like Cops involving local crime if you pay them for that. People get enough of that stuff in their everyday lives. You don't find hearing about real crimes entertaining if you know you have a good chance to be next. The real violence also does not nave a happy end with a smiling hero proudly clutching his AK as in the end of a Holliwood action movie. In there is reality is nothing there than more death and less hope. "A bunch of people were killed today. No one will ever find out who did it. Tomorrow will be some more." Nothing is fun about that. Here, real crime is a prime-time entertainment. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:17:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jane Franklin wrote: >>Now, I think matters would be different in terms of TV violence if we all lived in small city-states with coherent identites and had a certain amount of personal violence--war, slaves, sailing--as the background of our lives. For one thing, we'd know far more of the people we had the potential to be violent too, which would probably minimze (although I don't believe eradicate) the issue. For another, we'd have a more real feeling for the consequences of violence, which the Burbclave dwellers who watch shoot-em-ups generally don't. (Snowcrash reference...icky and bad) In short, my concern with violence on film is its exploitive, voyeuristic quality, rather than the simple fact of it. You're saying that most violence in the US (I assume you're talking about the US) is impersonal, committed by strangers. I think the reality is that we already know the people we have the potential to be violent to--they're our lovers, family members, children, co-workers, etc. The greatest amount of violence in this country isn't commited by serial killers, muggers, or drug dealers, it's committed by husbands beating their wives, parents and school bullies beating kids. It happens every day, in every town, but it just doesn't make it into the paper very often. Do I think that screen violence contributes towards this? Maybe--in some already disturbed people. But that's an entirely separate issue. To paraphrase The Simpsons, there was violence before cartoons, like that thing called the Crusades, where lots of people got killed. Taking away violence in movies and tv is only going to impede people's entertainment, it's not going to reduce anyone's bruises. Do we live in a much more violent society than before movies and tv? No matter what conservatives will tell you, I don't believe we do. Hey, I like action movies. I'm not a voyeur, I try not to exploit anyone, and the only time I've ever been violent in my adult life was when a teenager grabbed me in an extremely inappropriate manner (and I broke most of my fingers punching him in the face, which is a real consequence of violence). After a long day in the office, I go home to my suburban house and watch Buffy kick butt or a movie with car chases and people shooting at each other. It's stress cathartic. Or other times I'll sit down and read Trollope to relax. The violence of Buffy is about as real as the intrigues of Barsetshire, and both are about as injurious to my psyche. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:49:25 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/19/98 8:16:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DEBRA.EULER@PENGUIN.COM writes: << The violence of Buffy is about as real as the intrigues of Barsetshire, and both are about as injurious to my psyche. >> Well, OK. As long as we have the collective psyche of the same folks who gave us the Crusades and the Gulag and hate crimes. If we wanted to change all that...if we, like, wanted to see what it might feel like to go a decade or two without murdering a lot of folks? maybe we could give a shot at telling different kinds of stories. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:44:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: SMCharnas Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 16 Oct 1998 to 17 Oct 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Julieanne wrote: >the USA was relying heavily on European NATO Allies for >intelligence, particularly the French. It may have been this interviewee's >own personal perceptions, but he felt the French attitude was akin to "when >the dust settles in the Balkans, there will be someone left to negotiate >with on trade, and it matters little to us who that is". This is *really* bad news; the record of the French on this kind of thing is just as awful as anybody else's -- see recent revelations about their role in obstructing meaningful and early intervention in the slaughter in Rwanda. >If American people are constantly bombarded with the message that their >nation is 'heroic' and 'free' and 'democratic' and the 'good guys' We are also -- many of us -- extremely sceptical and cynical about all this, but easily diverted from international issues and our ir/responsibility in them by our own deep and vast internal problems, mainly about race. We were *never intended* by our founders to be a "world power", only a pros- perous and self-reliant nation of yoeman farmers (!!!). The developments of history have drawn us, not very willingly, into an arena in which we have played really, really obnoxious roles. On the other hand, if you look at the record of European and Asian imperialism . . . *Nobody* does this well. Power corrupts, and we're as corrupt, and as confused, divided, and angry about our own corruption, as anybody else out there is about theirs. >One alternative she suggested is to try to ensure peace-negotiating teams >and forces are as distant, and as uninvolved in the conflict as possible. Yes -- but look at the horror stories that have surfaced about intervention troops from far away -- e.g. Canadians and Dutch (aggressive and racist in the former case, completely passive while slaughter goes on around them in the latter) -- or near, as in tales of ugly abuses by Nigerian troops in other West African countries -- Liberia? Sierra Leone? If you have no connection with the local people, it's easy to treat them as dangerous nuisances and abuse them at will; if you *do* have a connection, it's easy to take sides and so exacerbate the situation. As for choosing sides -- I see it this way, in my own country: the US popu- lation *hates* shipping kids off to get shot at, just as moms and dads in other nations do; and we have oceans to cross to do it, too, in the northern hemisphere, which makes it very expensive in other terms as well. *And* we have elections in which we can express, however imperfectly, our displeasure with leaders who embroil us in such foreign adventures. So, in order to arouse the necessary enthusiasm for an armed excursion to a place with no easily demonstrable strategic or economic importance to the US population, our politicians pick a side and encourage the media to publicize the evils of the designated bad guys. It does not hurt when these bad guys loaf in the hills above a place like Sarajevo for years, picking off old people and little kids as they dash through town carrying water in plastic jugs. It does not take a lot to make this kind of behavior *look bad*. (Let me note in passing, by the way, that every story that I have seen about the organized rape of Muslim women by Serbs has included outraged comment on the rejection such women meet at home for having become "spoiled goods;" this is not news, as at some levels our media coverage shows depth and awareness.) At any rate, I only wish to make the point that there are reasons for the hesitation of the "international community" to intervene in ethnic/civil wars, and those reasons lie in a history of botched, inadequate, confused, and downright tragic forays into this arena. Which does not mean that we can or should stop *trying*; but I suggest that it's not inexplicable, or because of some sort of demonic manipulativeness etc., that we all have such a very hard time doing it at all, let alone doing it well. Suzy MC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:43:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Comments: cc: m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19 Oct 98, at 2:43, Lilith wrote: > I would have thought that the entire history of Europe -- if not the > rest of the world -- can be explained in part as a practice of > "punishing the dead through the living"....or else how are we to explain > all the treatment of the descendants of the enemy, whoever it happened to > be? If this is only a custom in the US, then why are enmities > traditionally handed down from generation to generation in other parts of > the world? The comment referred specifically to the telephoning etc of the bereaved and gloating over the death of a loved one BY _ORDINARY_ CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY FOR WHICH THE SOLDIER DIED. That I have never heard of anywhere in Europe. Your comments about the hatred between different European groups are both true and irrelevant. The "vendetta" involving families to the nth generation is of course widespread almost everywhere - not the least in Europe. But I don't see what this has to do with the sort of attacks we're discussing. > I know nothing of the particular incident which you recount, but I find it > hard to believe that the IRA would threaten to put a stop to anyone > injuring the families of Protestant Ulstermen -- who were their "enemies" > -- nor that the attacking of families on both sides of the NI troubles was > exactly unknown and only "briefly" made an appearance during the Falkland > War. Regardless of what your opinion of the IRA is, they consider(ed) themselves decent and honourable soldiers and there is something to which such soldiers will not descend. The incident is reported in several places - the earliest I know of is Charles Hoskins' 1985 "Honour thy enemy". > I also don't know who the "prominent in feminist circles" person was who > harassed that poor pregnant woman, since you don't state a name, but she > sounds as if she was a very disturbed individual and I hope she got some > treatment for her misplaced anger. This type of incident was very common during the anti-war protests of the 60s/70s and is mentioned in many books on the period. A host of similar things happened which I know of no parallel in Europe. The desecration of monuments, graves and other signs of grief was extremely common. Again almost everyone must have seen newsreels of the time showing protestors taunting returned/departing soldiers with "baby killers", "we hope you get killed" and other even less acceptable taunts. My remarks were not intended as an attack on the US political system - which is the freest (outside the UK) in the world. However, this very freedom has - in my opinion - brought with it something that appears to be the legitimization and glorification of violent protest by sections of the community. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _______________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:51:25 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: OT Returning Vietnam Veterans - Was homophobia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote >>This type of incident was very common during the anti-war protests of the 60s/70s and is mentioned in many books on the period. A host of similar things happened which I know of no parallel in Europe. The desecration of monuments, graves and other signs of grief was extremely common. Again almost everyone must have seen newsreels of the time showing protestors taunting returned/departing soldiers with "baby killers", "we hope you get killed" and other even less acceptable taunts.<< As an anti-war protester (and a supporting member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War) from that time, I have to dispute your claims. It is an American urban myth that attacks were made on returning Vietnam soldiers by protestors, one perpetuated to this day to discredit the anti-war movement. A Vietnam veteran has a written a non-fiction book called " Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam" that examines the newsreels and newspapers of that time and finds no basis in reality for Anthea's claims. Anthea, besides your friend's ancedotal story (which I don't doubt could have happened by *one* disturbed individual), can you point at specific incidents that are recorded from that time to back up your claim? Freddie Baer There's a review of Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam in the San Francisco Chronicle by David Harris that can be found on the web at: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/10/11/RV76455.DTL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:43:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: writer's group mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've created a list! If you expressed what I understood as a request to be on the list, you are, and should have received an intro message a few minutes ago, or maybe a few minutes from now. If you didn't get that mail and want to be on it, please let me know. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:05:18 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-10-18 18:35:39 EDT, you write: << I have a copy of the wonderful sermon done at Trinity College on Matthew Shephard's murder. I think it would be appropriate to post it to this list. It is good and should be seen everywhere. Am I right? >> Absolutely! Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:07:25 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: OT - homofobia In-Reply-To: <19981019184302.16684.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > The comment referred specifically to the telephoning etc of the bereaved and > gloating over the death of a loved one BY _ORDINARY_ CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY > FOR WHICH THE SOLDIER DIED. That I have never heard of anywhere in Europe. Last week, a couple of days before the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a lesbian and gay protest group in London, England released a press statement about how successful their protest at the funeral of a British Press magnate had been. The Press magnate had, apparently used the papers he owned to print homophobic articles... this "justified" disrupting his funeral. Much though I'd like to think that Americans are unique in this or any other infamy. It clearly isn't so. > This type of incident was very common during the anti-war protests of the > 60s/70s and is mentioned in many books on the period. A host of similar > things happened which I know of no parallel in Europe. The desecration of > monuments, graves and other signs of grief was extremely common. I've also heard newsreports of vandalism to Jewish graveyards in France, Germany, Hungary, and elsewhere in Europe. Again. Fanatics occur in all nations, as do mobs, and neither individual fanatic or crazed mob will see a funeral or cemetary of their enemies as a sacred space that should not be tresspassed upon. > My remarks were not intended as an attack on the US political system - which > is the freest (outside the UK) in the world. I'm not sure upon what you're basing this... but I'm having a hard time imagining in what perceptual framework it might be true. If nothing else, what similarity do you see between US and UK political systems? Granted, as a Canadian I no doubt have a warped view of both nations, but I really don't see them having much in common. One has a constitution, the other doesn't. One elects just about every functionary from dog catcher to president, the other has a hereditary house (the house of Lords) as well as an elected one (house of commons). Please clarify if there's something I'm missing here? Anne Anne Vespry ******* http://www.vex.net/~maverick After Stonewall Bookshop ***** never forget avespry(at) *** only dead fish ollisdotuottawadotca * swim WITH the stream ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply In-Reply-To: <4d7dce30.362b6d95@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > << The violence of > Buffy is about as real as the intrigues of Barsetshire, and both are > about as injurious to my psyche. > >> > Well, OK. As long as we have the collective psyche of the same folks > who gave us the Crusades and the Gulag and hate crimes. If we wanted to > change all that...if we, like, wanted to see what it might feel like to > go a decade or two without murdering a lot of folks? maybe we could > give a shot at telling different kinds of stories. Sure. Telling different kinds of stories would be a good thing... Telling *all* kinds of stories is a good thing. Me, personally, I can't imagine anything that would reduce me to the level of random violence faster than having to live in a world where the *only* stories told were full of sweetness and light. I empathise with a customer who told me that she likes reading Pat Califia (a writer of S/M erotica) because she is sleeping with a Girl Guide. For some of us it's about balance. And the balance I've struck in my own life may involve shoot'em up video games and movies, but it also involves having lived 33 years without ever having intentionally struck or injured another human being. Who knows, perhaps if those Crusaders had been able to play Quake, they'd have had less time or energy to expend on killing real folk. Anne Anne Vespry ******* http://www.vex.net/~maverick After Stonewall Bookshop ***** never forget avespry(at) *** only dead fish ollisdotuottawadotca * swim WITH the stream ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:48:47 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: : Re: Fake/real violence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In the rest of Europe sf is popular, from what I hear. Swedes love it, > French even write it, Germans translate a lot of it, and there used to be > a *huge* market in the Eastern Countries. I don't know about Spain, > though.) Spain does have some interest, including a program at the university in Barcelona. From what I udnerstand, it is apparently one of the better ones available. They also sponsor the UTC science fiction novella literary prize, which is as far as I know the only prize for an sf novella. They accept submissions in Spanish, Castillian, English, and French. People can submit ms once a year. If people are interested, I can post more details on the program and/or contest. Are folks here familiar with the work of Amy Betchel? I've recently read two of her short stories and thought they were good. I would recommend her as a writer to watch. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:13:50 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 17 Oct 1998 to 18 Oct 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have applied for political asylum this March, but it was denied by INS. Right now, > my lawyer is working on resubmitting my application, which I'm afraid is my last > chance. Why did they deny it? It sounds from the rest of your post like you had plenty of cause. If you haven't already, you might consider talking to the National Organization for women and the American Association of University Women. NOW has a page at: http://www.now.org/ and AAUW has a page at: http://www.aauw.org/ > Ok. My full name is Marina Yereshenko. I came to US four years ago, as > an exchange student at the University of Oklahoma, and later decided to > get my degree there. I don't know if anyone has told you, but you have a remarkable command of English. I've had students who were in the US far longer who couldn't write as well. For that matter, I've had many US students who didn't have as good a command of the written English language. > In my second year, I tried to report sexual > harassment in the University Food Service, where I was working, and after > they closed it the second time, I tried to file a lawsuit. When the folks > at the school found out about that, they got me suspended ans called > Immigration on me, so I almost got deported. Do you mean they closed the case? Why? Did the university have a sexual harrassment counselors you could turn to? More and more schools have them, but the quality of the programs varies, to say the least. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19 Oct 98, at 18:07, Anne Vespry wrote: > Last week, a couple of days before the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a > lesbian and gay protest group in London, England released a press > statement about how successful their protest at the funeral of a British > Press magnate had been [snip] Unless the magnate was a soldier who died defending his country, I don't see what this has got to do with my comments. > I've also heard newsreports of vandalism to Jewish graveyards in France, > Germany, Hungary, and elsewhere in Europe. In the twisted, evil "logic" of racists, the Jews were/are not Frenchmen etc. As I made clear, I was talking about attacks by _ordinary citizens_ (not disaffected minorities, separatists etc) on _their own soldiers who'd died defending their own country's interests_. > I'm not sure upon what you're basing this... but I'm having a hard > time imagining in what perceptual framework it might be true. If > nothing else, what similarity do you see between US and UK > political systems? My remarks referred to "freedom" (by implication that of individuals) not political structure. The similarity is clearly "similarity of outcome". A constitution is no guarantee of freedom; most of the remaining tyrannies have ostensibly liberal constitutions. That of the North Korea guarantees considerable individual freedom but I wouldn't call the DRNK's people free, would you? AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) __________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:25:38 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: OT Returning Vietnam Veterans - Was homophobia Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 19 Oct 98, at 13:51, Freddie Baer wrote: > Anthea, besides your friend's ancedotal story (which I don't doubt > could have happened by *one* disturbed individual), can you point > at specific incidents that are recorded from that time to back up > your claim? I'm answering this on Anthea's behalf. Unfortunately we're in Moscow so I've access only to the books in my host's library. "College students and other naifs were waving the enemy flag in public parks and even visiting Hanoi, urging the North Vietnamese to kill us, their own compatriots. A clan of citizens within my own country was shouting encouragement to the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese as they practised the art of murder, terror and international outlawry." (Donovan 1986, p. 299). "And I regret the callous heart of my country which did not shrink from calling her citzens to war, but once called, refused to sustain them with public support or sympathy. Rather than receive help and encouragement, members of the armed services, especially of the army, became the targets of public scorn, distrust, and resentment. ... If there was immorality in the war in Vietnam, it was that a democratic nation called her citzens to war, had them killed by the tens of thousands, and then, like a faithless lover, turned and scorned the survivors. Oh, perfidious nation!" (Donovan 1986, p. 308). You may argue (with some truth) that both sides in the "dispute" would have reason to exaggerate/deny "urban legends" so I suggest the work of two outsiders, Zaitsev (1994) and MacLear (1981). I've only access to the Russian edition of Zaitsev, a KGB officer during the relevant period; the major comments on the anti-war movement are on p. 267-70 and should be about the same place in the English one. His remarks elsewhere (p. 420-1) on the supply of intelligence by protestors (particularly information on families of POWs to be used by Vietnamese interrogators) and the actual interrogation of US POWs by anti-war protestors are brutally honest. MacClear, the most experienced Western television reporter of the war, was the producer of the television series of the same name. "But duty done, the veterans increasingly found themselves alienated, arousing guilt among their elders and anger among their own generation who often shunned them, and damned them, as killers". (MacLear 1981 p. 316). "Long time militant, Jerry Rubin says '...[the movement] moved much too quickly into aggression, violence, secrecy and military tactics'" (op cit p. 323). I accept the comment made in a private email to us that this list is not place for a topic of this nature. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) _______________________________________ Donovan, David 1986. _Once a warrior king : memories of an officer in Vietnam_. London : Weidenfeld & Nicolson. 323p. MacLear, M 1981. _Vietnam : the ten thousand day war_. London : Thames Methuen. 492p. Zaitsev, I 1994. _Washington memories_ Berlin : Telling. 477p. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:42:48 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 19-10-1998 20:43, Anthea Hartley Stanton said: >The comment referred specifically to the telephoning etc of the bereaved and >gloating over the death of a loved one BY _ORDINARY_ CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY >FOR WHICH THE SOLDIER DIED. That I have never heard of anywhere in Europe. I think the family of Calabresi, who was killed because the student movement felt he was responsible for the "accidental" fall of Pinelli (an anarchist that was in that moment in custody) from a high window in the Questura, received a lot of hate phone calls, and I suspect some of them were after his death, but I'm not sure. A woman in Sicily who had decided not to recognize her daughter, with Down's Syndrome, and giver her up for adoption, is being subjected to a very strong hate campaing right now. >My remarks were not intended as an attack on the US political system - which >is the freest (outside the UK) in the world. In which ways is it freer than the political systems of Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, and Australia? I'm not asking maliciously. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:43:00 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT - homofobia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 20-10-1998 10:10, Anthea Hartley Stanton said: >My remarks referred to "freedom" (by implication that of individuals) not >political structure. The similarity is clearly "similarity of outcome". A >constitution is no guarantee of freedom; most of the remaining tyrannies have >ostensibly liberal constitutions. That of the North Korea guarantees >considerable individual freedom but I wouldn't call the DRNK's people free, >would you? Yes, the Americans are firmly convinced to be the freest people in the world. If you are a white male Republican this can even be true, though you still may find that some sexual behaviours are illegal and actionable even if exercised in the privacy of your bedroom with a consenting adult. I must point out that when I had to ask a visa for the USA I had to declare not to be a member of a Communist Party or any association with ties with the Communist Party. Apparently that is illegal over there, or used to be. I'm not sure. Of course, we also have a crime that's called "apology of the Fascist Party" - though we had (and still have) a party that was fascist in anything but name. We also have, and have had since 1948, an article of the Constitution that says all citizens are equal under the law regardless of their gender, race and religious persuasion. I've just lived for ten days in the USA, in North Carolina, during which I have been repeatedly warned that I should be very careful walking on campus at night, dancing alone or with a friend (because people, it was explained to me, might take me for a lesbian), or talking Italian (because I might, it was again explained, be taken for a Latino). But I have lived rather longer in the UK, and while I find it a very nice country I wouldn't mind at all transferring to, with, contrary to public opinion, good food, lots of sf books, lots of well-fed and obviously pampered cats, polite and helpful inhabitants (in some areas, even warm and friendly ones), and great scenery, I can't think of any single facet of life that can be termed "freer" than the corresponding one in Italy. All right, their Natianl Health System is *still* completely free, if I'm not mistaken, while in Italy you have to pay, not very much, for medicines and such. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:54:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 17 Oct 1998 to 18 Oct 1998 Comments: To: Catherine Asaro In-Reply-To: <362C462B.414D@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Catherine Asaro wrote: > > I have applied for political asylum this March, but it was denied by INS. Right now, > > my lawyer is working on resubmitting my application, which I'm afraid is my last > > chance. > > Why did they deny it? It sounds from the rest of your post like you had > plenty of cause. They basically said that since US Department of State have not officially recognized mistreatment of Russian women in Tajikistan, and in fact is trying to establish good relations with Tajikistan government, they cannot accept my claim of such persecution. "It's very sad what's going on there", they said, "but we cannot help you". I don't think that raping and killing women on ethnic basis with the silent permission of the government is persecution either. I think it's genocide. A woman from the Human Rights Watch made a stament concerning the situation of women in Tajikistan in her interview to the Voice of America about a year ago (there is link to it on my web site). She was the only one who had the guts to talk about it. When my friend contacted her, she told him even more that was there in the interview. However, when asked to make an official statement, she backed out very fast, and that was it. You know, this might sound terrible, but after I tried to contact a couple dozens of international human rights organizations, I realized that many of them have quite a few people who had spent their lives battling Communism. Which would not be a problem by itseif if they were not nationalists from the former Soviet republics who hated Russians as a nation. Which of course they have a right to feel too, if that did not mean to them that however ethnic Russians are treated in the rebublics now -- be they killed, tortured, or raped -- they "deserved it" for "having oppressed their nation". I once had a message from a guy from Lithuania who had seen my web site. He said that "this would be horrible, and he would really feel sorry for these women, if they were not Russian". Because his family had been deported to Siberia in 1940's. I told him that my family was deproted to Tajikistan, too, even earlier that his, which is how they ended up there. He said it did not matter, because all Russians were evil oppressors. I reminded him that even in the "oppressed Lithuania's" government there were no Russians, because they had no chance to be anyone if they were born and raised there. That the oppressive government of Soviet Lithuania was in fact composed of all Lithuanians. They must have been Moscow puppets, but they were not Russian, so he can as well hate himself. And that the same people who were pleading the eternal allegiance to Russia on the official meetings were the ones who treated like dirt the people in the streets, stores, and jobs, just because they were not Lithuanians and therefore "should go back where they came from". Including the children who were born there and considered it the only Motherland they had. I also told him that the only reason for that kind of double-sided behavior was the fact that it was so much easier to spit in the face of a middle-aged Russian woman in the street, who was living there and working for and loving the republic she lived in as her homeland, despite being a second-rate citizen there. It's much easier to do that -- or throw Russian kids out of schools -- than to fight for one's independence from Moscow. The Moscow government had an army, and fighting the place where the opression was coming would be a lot more dangerous. So all the republics' nationalists had the balls for was harassing those who were in worse position than themselves -- the local minorities. That's what they did before, and that's what they do now, because that is all they are good for -- picking on women and children (or killing them, in case of Tajikistan) to redeem their own "oppressed national pride". Because it is so much easier to deal with scapegoats. I never heard from that guy again. However, once when i was searching for human rights organizations on the web, I ran across some articles written by the Human Rights Watch members. One of them was entirely in the spirit of that Lithuanian guy -- that all ethnic Russians were kind of a by-product of the Soviet empire's occupation of the republics. Sort of like the children of rape -- evil and monstrous, and better for everyone if they did not exist. So whatever happens to them, it is "well deserved". Well, I don't know about y'all, but I don't feel like tortured to death because some people don't like the country that kicked out my grandparents 70 years ago. I don't like it either. And there is no way I gonna agree on dying like this because I "deserved" it by being Russian. However, I do realize that if that guy who wrote the article was in any position of authority in the Human Rights Watch, I've got about as much chance with them as a black person appealing to Ku Klux Klan. He might be really human rights-oriented, but not for everybody. Sorry if I sound too pessimistic. I guess I've been told to go back where I came from in too many different places too many times. Apparently I made a very bad choice of the circumstances in which to be born -- not only a female, but also a Russian. So it all must be my own fault anyway. Except that I don't think so. > > If you haven't already, you might consider talking to the National > Organization for women and the American Association of University > Women. NOW has a page at: > > http://www.now.org/ > > and AAUW has a page at: > > http://www.aauw.org/ Well, I have not checked out these yet, so I certainly will. The women's organizations are pretty good in working on things that no one else cares about. I just wish I could help them instead of bugging them for support. > I don't know if anyone has told you, but you have a remarkable command > of English. I've had students who were in the US far longer who > couldn't write as well. For that matter, I've had many US students who > didn't have as good a command of the written English language. Thank you, Catherine :). I always wanted to be a writer. I was not sure I could do it, because English is not my first language. This semester I finally decided to take a writing class. Who knows, the least I can do is try. > > > In my second year, I tried to report sexual > > harassment in the University Food Service, where I was working, and after > > they closed it the second time, I tried to file a lawsuit. When the folks > > at the school found out about that, they got me suspended ans called > > Immigration on me, so I almost got deported. > > Do you mean they closed the case? Why? You gonna laugh. They sent out letters to each person mentioned in my report asking them if they did it. They all sent letters back saying that they did not. That was it for the investigation. It took me 7 months to get an appeal hearing, and they were really, really unhappy with me insisting. And then one day they told me that the hearing already happened, and the committee decided to dismiss the case "for the lack of evidence." They never talked to me or my witnesses. The head of that appeal committee, a woman, explained later that "she had never heard of something like in my report happening in this school", therefore I must have "made it up." Did the university have a > sexual harrassment counselors you could turn to? Well, there was this Affirmative Action officer who was supposed to investigate my report. He later wrote one of those papers that helped the administration kick me out of school (and when the story went on the news, conveniently backed out it -- a very careful person), and his secretary was threatening one of my witnesses "to keep quiet". If you mean a regular counselor, I had talked to one of those, too. (I thought it would be helpful when those guys at work were talking about gang-raping me and everyone thought it was funny). That counselor's wife turned out to be the boss of one of the people I complained about. Of course, he told me he was going to be "objective" despite that fact, and I was dumb enough to believe him. When the university people were putting together everything they could in the 24 hours after they found out about my lawsuit, he wrote a paper against me as well, even though he had not seen me for months. I don't know how I only find people like that. Gee, I sound like a very bitter person. Oh well. As they say, "what does not kill us, makes us stranger." You know what was funny? After all this already happened and the story was on the news, long after that many women would tell me that they had been in a similar situation at OU themselves. That they had been harrassed when working at the same place. They said things like that were going on at OU for a long time. And none of them ever reported it. Because they did not want trouble. Anyway. Thank you for your message, Catherine. It's nice to know that there are people who care. Thank all of you. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 05:51:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT - Comparative "Freeness": Europe vs. North America In-Reply-To: <19981020084251.YSZO11735.fep03-svc@[212.216.41.182]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I did not want to get into this one because I don't want to make it worse. However, it seems to me that this argument transformed into a discussion on "who's more socially advanced." Which apart of being highly subjective, is kind of not very useful. Why is it so important who is "morally superior"? Concerning the Vietnam constroversy -- it's the fact that some members of 70's movements were pretty fanatical over their beliefs. Which does not mean all those war protesters did was harrassing the families of dead soldiers. Some of them did, and a lot of veterans suffered a lot from the rejection they met at home, but eventually the society woke up and the problem was resolved more or less successfully. The existance of fanatics does not nesesserily discredit the idea they claim to follow. At the same time, recognizing the fact of their presence is not "slandering the cause". By the way, if you want a truly international example of a similar thing -- think about animal rights activists who bomb the labs of doctors testing medications on animals. The doctors are working on saving lives of people (in a way they had been taught), including those who might harass their families after they blow them up. How is it better than doing that to soldiers that had died for your country? And this does not happen in US only does it? Now, talking about Americans. It's true that people here a lot more persistent about their beliefs. In my opinion, it is mainly because the country and its laws has been shaped not by a tradition but by the people who live here (not all of them having equal share in the process, of course). Therefore, if you are not making the law, the person with the opposite view will. Which is why people go to extremes when trying to make their point the dominant one. This society is simply not as solid and stable as the ones that evolved over centuries. Which means it's a lot easier to change, and also that everyone wants to do it their way. However, it works for good things just as well as for bad ones. And many people (including me) find it a lot more interesting than living in a place where everything is highly pre-determined from birth. Which of course is a matter of preference. Finally, I firmly believe that whatever happens in a country that may or may not happen in others, it cannot be a ground to claim that being a result of some particular inborn "evilness" of the nation. There is no such thing. Moreover, it does nothing but creates ethnic prejudices. Why in the world would we want to do that here? We were just talking about Balkan nations unable to resolve their differences. And here we go -- the open-minded feminists from US and Britain arguing who's higher on the evolution ladder. With people of other countries chipping in: no, my country is the best. I'm not trying to make fun of anyone, but admit it -- this is kind of ironic. Even if there existed a measure to figure out who's "better as a nation", why would we want to do that? Would there be some purpose to that knowledge? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:31:28 -0400 Reply-To: virchick@bostonabcd.org Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Garret Virchick Subject: Re: OT Returning Vietnam Veterans - Was homophobia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Freddie Baer wrote: > As an anti-war protester (and a supporting member of the > Vietnam Veterans Against the War) from that time, I have to dispute > your claims. > It is an American urban myth that attacks were made on returning > Vietnam > soldiers by protestors, one perpetuated to this day to discredit the > anti-war > movement. > I totally agree with Freddie and might add that anti-war protestors were instrumental in setting up coffee houses for returning veterans...places where returning vets could come and attempt to heal themselves from the horror of Viet-nam Garret ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:09:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Enough OT? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Umm... I feel like a cad doing this, and I have to wonder if it's somehow because I'm male. Could we please move back toward feminist science fiction on this list? I do care about the topics in the off-topic posts, but this isn't the place for them. I dearly hope that Marina isn't deported, and if we can do something to help her, that would be great, but can any organization be done off the list? I don't think anyone would complain about an occasional update or explicit request for help/funds/ideas/etc. -allen (really, really wishing that peace and justice were much more prevalent, and doing what I can when I can to promote them) -- Allen Briggs - briggs@ninthwonder.com Try free *nix: http://www.netbsd.org/, http://www.freebsd.org/, http://www.linux.org/, http://www.openbsd.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: OT Kosovo, Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I really really liked this post, particularly the extraterrestrials analogy. I suppose what occurs to me is that even if the leader of a country really does start something, really is evil and so on, that does not mean that the people of that country deserve to be bombed. (I think bombing is the worst tactic, anyway, even if you have a war you really have to fight.) And you know, if people in the Balkans "deserve" to be bombed for the actions of their leaders, doesn't the United States "deserve" to be bombed for the actions of the gangsters we keep electing president? It's just like Iraq--everybody goes on about how we should "eliminate" Saddam Hussein, or bomb Baghdad until the Iraqis decide to eliminate him themselves. And what no one admits is that even now the city is in ruins--they don't have working water mains even--and they can't afford to repair anything or import the parts anyway. So even if they get rid of Saddam Hussein, how is this going to pay for millions of dollars of damage? Even if they start selling lots of oil again, it will take years and years to get everything fixed up. Several of my friends went on a relief mission to Iraq and they brought back pictures of the bombed areas. Now, on the one hand the United States has cooperated with truly repulsive people like Suharto and Franco. We only turn against evil dictators when it's inconvenient to support them. On the other hand, this doesn't make them any less evil. However, we are unlikely to intervene in a helpful and altruistic manner; instead, we'll probably use an intervention to do an economic takeover of the country, like the crushing of the Japanese unions during the American occupation. So I suppose the only time American intervention would be appropriate would be when the consequences of our intervention can't possibly be as bad as what's happening without it. World War II is a theoretical nuisance...it was only partly about territory, and the United States was actually on the right side, more or less, for the first time in our history and probably the last. Somehow this has clouded our collective judgement about war. All wars get compared to this anomaly, rather than the more typical World War I. And then we got toppled into the more ideological (although still economic in origin) anti-communist wars of the Cold War. So we see war through the lense of ideology. >>> Marina 10/16 6:48 PM >>> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Daniel Krashin wrote: > My two cents: I've read extensively in the press of 3 countries > (Germany, UK, USA) about the wars of Yugoslav succession, and > they seemed to agree that the Bosnian Serbs were the nastiest, > followed closely by the Croatians. That is not to say that the > Bosnians (who are not just Muslims, by the way) didn't commit > plenty of nastiness too. But the organized nastiness of the > Serbs seemed to be something special. Well, the reasons why the press "agrees" that Serbs were "the nastiest" have already been discussed here. Bosnians were backed by the US, and Croatians by Germany and the European part of NATO, so it would be difficult to explain these counries' support to those two sides of Bosnian conflict if it was admitted that none of them was any better than the other. There have not been born a politician who would admit that their country's support of a particular side is due entirely to political interest of helping an ally, no matter how bad they behave. So far, military support is always explained by some special cruelness of the "other side." There is simply no way possible that one side in a conflict like this can be any better or worse than another. Why would it be? What would prevent Muslim Bosnians from committing the same crimes as Serbs, some genetical predisposition to cruelty present only in the DNA of Serbs? This is pretty much what this whole campaign is aimed to prove, but isn't it kind of racist? Finally, what would be the scale to determine the level of "nastiness"? Raping women in concentration camps -- 10 points, raping women in war brothels -- 8 points? > > As for the current conflict, those same press sources agreed that > Milosevich pretty much started up the Kosovo conflict unilaterally > by revoking the autonomy of that region. He then used the resulting > unrest as an excuse to move in heavily-armed police and heavy > weapons including helicopter gunships and tanks, ostensibly to > combat the UCK (Kosovo Liberation Army) but apparently also with > the goal of drying up the UCK's base of support by driving out > the ethnic Albanians -- i.e. "ethnically cleansing" them. I really hope this is not going to happen any time soon, but if Irish Republican Army manages to launch a full-scale armed rebellion in Northern Ireland, what do you think the actions of British government are going to be? And who would have "started it" by annexing Ireland in the first place? (God forbid me from supporting IRA, by the way. I am just trying to figure out how is it that exactly the same kind of situation -- the conflict over "who's got to this land first" can be seen in two opposite ways depending on whose action we want to justify). > So is the West justified in threatening force to stop this stuff? > I think so. Yes, when this kind of barbarism happens in Asia or > Africa there isn't as much of a reaction from the world community, > but that seems like no excuse for inaction now. (This may also > set a precedent in world law for intervening in internal struggles > in sovereign nations, which may be a good thing over all.) The "world law" in the face of the US government so far cannot do much (if anything) to intervene in the internal struggles between the neighborhood gangs in its own cities. With the districts of South Bronx or East L.A. being far from sovereign, and not employing any tanks, fighter planes or missiles so far. Of course, "restoring order" on foreign soil is a lot easier, since the politicians won't have to be held accountable for the deaths of civilians wiped out in the process. You cannot bomb LA, you can hit some "good" citizens, and that could be costly. On the other side of the world, no matter how many people die, it's only "casualties". None of them could vote for the bomb-order giving officials on the next elections anyway. Just think about this -- when three years ago, one single building here in Oklahoma City blew up, it was such tradegy, the country could not get over the shock for months. The bombs to be used in former Yugoslavia will not be made of fertilizer. 127 victims a day would not be even newsworthy. Is anyone going to cry for those children? And will those who give the orders to press the button get death penalty, too? I am not a pacifist, as you all probably know by now. But if you want to punish members of a war conflict for their crimes against humanity, you've gotta punish them all, or no one. You cannot just punish one side because the other two or three are your friends. You can try, of course. But it will be about as good for the future of the people you are trying to "help" as if in 1860's, some extraterrestrials appeared and started fighting on the side of North, with their flying ships and laser weapons. Would it help the North win the war faster? probably. Would there be any US after that? I doubt it. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:31:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Marina 10/16 7:40 PM >>> You know, Jane, I think you are right. I would not expect myself to say this, but intervention in Kosovo _might_ help, but ONLY on one condition -- if it is used to actually enforce peace and help all people in trouble with humanitarian aid. Which means that the main purpose has to be to keep the sides away from each other, and punish war criminals no matter which side they belong to. (Marina wrote the above) Yeah, that's just about what I think. But I don't suppose it will ever happen. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:58:15 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Afenech Subject: Homophobia and other madness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone This was posted to another list I belong to and I thought it very much worth repeating. Pat F ______________ james byrd jr., matthew shepard, ... ... A change is slow in coming My eyes can scarcely see The rays of hope come streaming Through the smoke of apathy But oh my heart be strong And guide when eyes grow dim When ears grow deaf with empty words When I know there's life within. May the spirit never die Though a troubled heart feels pain When the long winter is over It will blossom once again. Loreena McKennitt No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. John Donne _____________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 17 Oct 1998 to 18 Oct 1998 Comments: To: Catherine Asaro In-Reply-To: <362C462B.414D@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Catherine Asaro wrote: > > Why did they deny it? It sounds from the rest of your post like you had > plenty of cause. > One of the scandals reported in the "left-wing press" is the bureaucrats who automatically deny everything (I've heard the story now from Welfare and from Managed Care) - and/or the supervisors who reward them for the number of clients they turn down. Might something like this be operating here?> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:41:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Back to SF - Shadow Man MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry to be so late with this post - it took a while coming in the mail. I noticed that of the Concord's 5 genders, the fems and mems not only exist on Earth today, but the biology is fairly well understood. In both cases we're looking at androgen. A fem results when a male embryo doesn't get any, or the androgen receptors don't work or do not exist. A mem results when a female embryo gets too much. One of Faye Kellerman's recent murder mysteries has a plot point turn on a young man acting as if he has something to hide. His secret is that he's a mem, and his parents, discovering this, tried to raise him as a girl and even send him in for "corrective" surgery. And on the athletic field, chromosome testing of female athletes has turned up the occasional fem, which has generally come as a total shock to the athlete involved. Oddly enough, this started during the Cold War when we suspected Eastern European countries of entering female impersonators on their womens' teams in order to win. Our "evidence" was that they looked terribly "unfeminine." I think what they were really seeing was steroid use. Anyway, I can only think of two ways the use of hyperluminal would produce both kinds of intersexed children (leaving herms out of it for now.) Either it threw the androgen-generating system into chaos, so that you had unexpected surges and unexpected lacks, or it offset the effects of FTL travel and one increased and the other decreased the androgen, both offsetting each other in a chaotic fashion. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:45:47 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Enough OT? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/98 5:10:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, briggs@CANOLOG.NINTHWONDER.COM writes: << I dearly hope that Marina isn't deported, and if we can do something to help her, that would be great, but can any organization be done off the list? I don't think anyone would complain about an occasional update or explicit request for help/funds/ideas/etc. >> Well...I have been really enjoying the posts and like the feeling of working together to come up with ideas for Marina. Maybe because my sense of science fiction is as a means to understand what's going on in the world, and to present that and ideas on how to change things in metaphor. So I think the situation with Marina and the discussions are really important to us. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:49:53 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: OT- Bosnia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/98 6:31:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << that the main purpose has to be to keep the sides away from each other, and punish war criminals no matter which side they belong to. >> I think one of the reasons is because, contrary to our John Wayne movies, the vast majority of the daily war criminals are ths soldiers. While it is true that a few generals etc set the tone, it is not they who do the actual rape and torture. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:52:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Marina Defense Fund Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit OK. Right now, my finances are squeeking but I'm also for some kind of fund or action for Marina. I want her to stay here and write more. How we doing on the letters to senators? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:07:09 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT - Comparative "Freeness": Europe vs. North America Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 20-10-1998 12:51, Marina said: >Even if there existed a measure to figure out who's "better as a nation", >why would we want to do that? Would there be some purpose to that >knowledge? I've been thinking about this. And my conclusion is that there is no such thing as a "freest" country. There are people, single individuals, who enjoy more or less freedom, and this depends both from the socio-political situation they have been born with and from a lot of other factors. For example, I think most prisoners detained for terrorism in Italy are freer than their counterparts in the USA, and both are probably better off than people jailed in Korea. I think a black single mother living on the dole in Boston is probably freer than an unmarried mother in Catania living with her family... and so on. Of course there are countries where the situation is favourable to the maximizing of individual freedoms (both legal and substantial) and others where it is not. But the situation is a lot fuzzier than flag-weaving would have us believe. I've been trying - to *try* to get back on topic - to set a story in an anarchist society very like that of Le Guin's Anarres (but a whole lot richer, and going toward Banks' Culture model) and I have been struck at how ruthless would repression of antisocial trends would have to be to keep life viable. I'd talk more about this, but ahem, I'm afraid that would be OT because it would belong on the writers' ml or perhaps because my story isn't principally centered on feminism... (though it has a couple of strong women including the protagonist) :-) Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:04:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: OT - Re: bureaucrats In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Pat wrote: > One of the scandals reported in the "left-wing press" is the > bureaucrats who automatically deny everything (I've heard the story now > from Welfare and from Managed Care) - and/or the supervisors who reward > them for the number of clients they turn down. Might something like this > be operating here?> You are right. INS denies practically all asylum applications pretty much automatically, even though they always go though the brief procedure of investigating. But the default response is no. I kind of hoped to convince them nevertheless, but so far it has not worked. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:32:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: OT -- Re: [*FSFFU*] Marina defense fund Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am writing some letters tonight or tomorrow. I'll also try to talk to my left wing friends and see if we can manage some other letters from them. And I'll see if I can contact some media--I just remembered that I know someone who works for our local "alternative" paper--maybe he could help, he's a left-wing kind of guy. We could also try writing to newspapers and magazines. I'll also try to look up the INS on the Web and find out how to contact them. Marina, is there a sort of free entertainment paper in Oklahoma City? It would advertise nightclubs and bands and have articles on hip stuff? Many cities have them and they're usually more liberal than the mainstream papers, plus a lot of people read them and they're always looking for local stories. If there is, I'd suggest that you ask one of your friends (or me, if no one else is available) to call it and suggest the story. So everyone, if you feel you can write these letters it would be really great. And those of you not in the United States, actually you would represent "international pressure" if you wrote, so if you feel you can, please do. >>> Marina 10/18 3:19 PM >>> Jane, Thank you for developing this strategy. It sounds like a great plan :). These are the news: On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Jane Franklin wrote: > Marina, I'm glad to hear that you have a reliable lawyer, although I'm sorry she's in Cleveland and it's far away. As I wrote yesterday, I talked to my boss, who works on human rights issues. She recommended that if you need advice, Marina, you e-mail the University of Minnesota Center for Human Rights (humanrts@gold.tc.umn.edu) or that you email direct to the co-chair, David Weissbrodt (weiss001@maroon.tc.umn.edu). Done :). I emailed them today, asking for advice and possible assistance. I'll let you know as soon as I hear from them. > > Now, I've been trying to strategize about this business of writing to senators. I'd suggest that those of us on the list who wnat to and are US citizens write letters by hand (it's so easy to send email to political figures that it doesn't always count for as much) to the senators for OK and to the Rep for Marina's district. (Marina, do you know who this is? Or your district number?) I just found out today: It's district number 5. The congressperson is Ernest Istook, Jr. Tel: (202) 225-2132 Fax: (202) 226-1463 Adress: 119 Cannon House Office Bldg. Washington, DC 20515 District phone (in Oklahoma): (405) 942-3636 The senators for Oklahoma are Don Nickles and James Inhofe. I don't have their addresses, but you have already posted them. >I'd also suggest that when we write these letters we download and include some articles on conditions in Tadjikistan. Later on we may want to telephone their offices or fax them. (I'm not trying to be controlling here, or claiming that my ideas are the best ones, I'm just throwing some ideas out about how this kind of thing might be done. I have done pressure campaign type stuff before, though, so I'm not totally guessing. Please feel totally free to improve my ideas.) I think your suggestions are very helpful. It's great to know someone who knows how to go about those things. > > Marina, if people are going to write these letters, I'm wondering if you could give us your last name and a few dates about how long you've been here. Also, although I know you posted it, my computer had a meltdown, and I no longer remember all the details of how you came to the US. Your family was resettled in Tajikistan from Russia, right? Ok. My full name is Marina Yereshenko. I came to US four years ago, as an exchange student at the University of Oklahoma, and later decided to get my degree there. In my second year, I tried to report sexual harassment in the University Food Service, where I was working, and after they closed it the second time, I tried to file a lawsuit. When the folks at the school found out about that, they got me suspended ans called Immigration on me, so I almost got deported. The local news people interfered and OU officials had to back off. I transferred to another school, but because of all that mess, my immigration documents were not filed properly (by my new school) which is why I cannot work in US as a "trainee" like other international students, and why my immigration status is pretty iffy in general. I have applied for political asylum this March, but it was denied by INS. Right now, my lawyer is working on resubmitting my application, which I'm afraid is my last chance. Concerning my family, my grandparents ended up in Tajikistan during Stalin's purges of 1930's. As farmers, they were accused of being "rich", robbed of all their property, and forcibly moved to Tajikistan in cargo reailroad cars along with hundreds of other people. They dumped them in the middle of a desert about ten miles north from Afghanistan border and told them that's where they were going to live. The was no water, no shelter, no medical care. The prisoners of this "resettelment camp" had to build big common shacks out of bamboo, and had water brought in rusty cisterns until they dug the irrigation canals. The was 40 to 45 degrees Celcium that Summer, which is more than 100 Fahrenheit, while most of people were from Northern Areas of Russia. All children younger than 10, people older than 45, and everyone who was sick has died during that first Summer. Those who survived, turned the desert of Vakhsh Valley into the main agricultural area of Tajikistan. That whole district has been built up by the "forced resettlers" like my grandmother, who was among those who was building all those canals since she was 16 years old, and later worked on the cotton plantations her whole life. But you won't find any of those people there anymore. Because they were not "natives" of Tajikistan, and when the country became independent, they have been told to "go back where they came from". Well, they have been told that their whole lifes, including the third-generation Tajikistan residents like me, who was born and raised there, and so did their parents. But in 1990, this street-level hate talk turned into riots. When hundreds of people, including little children, were beaten, raped, and tortured by crazed crowds of Islamic fundamentalists -- just for being Russian, or for wearing European clothing, and everyone -- the local governement and the Moscow press alike said that "there were no victims", most of us kind of realized that one day, we all gonna get slaughtered, and no one in the world will even notice. Because we were Russians in a non-Russian republic, and with the Soviet Union breaking up, everyone would be much happier if we never existed. In other words, my family has been thrown around for the last 70 years, and I think it's about time for that to stop. This is why I want to stay here. I like the United States, with all the crazy things that happen here sometimes. And I feel at home in this coutry more than I had anywhere else. Tajikistan definetly does not want me, and if I have to go there, I don't expect anything except getting killed like many other Russian women. > > On the limited information that I gave my boss, she said that it sounded like ethnic Russians in Tajikistan were a repressed minority and that angle might be worth playing. Well, I tried to tell that to the INS in my first application. Their basic response was "this is really sad what's going on, but the US Department of State does not recognize Russians as a repressed minority, so we cannot either". Maybe i just was not good enough in presenting hte case, I don't know. After all, I am not a lawyer, hard as I might try. > > Next question. Is there some kind of left wing type group in Oklahoma City? The only one I know of is Amnesty International. I will call them. > > Later today I'll be talking to my friend the organizer for CISPES. I'll t ry to get some tips on media stuff from her. How did you get media attention the last time? A friend of mine had a cousin who worked in the local paper, who gave me the phone number of their news room. The guy who answered the phone became interested in the story. He later won a bunch of awards for covering my case, and as a result, got a better job in Tulsa. So he is not here anymore. We'll se if I can find someone else. > Also, I still think talking to the INS would be worth while, if we can figure out how to do it. The last time I've heard from my lawyer, she said they were waiting for some country reports. She had told me the application could be resubmited either to the INS, or directly to an immigration judge. Whenever I found out whom exactly they are going to contact, I will let you know. Thank you again for all your support and advice. Let's hope something works out :) Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit After much thought, I realize that what I am trying to say about television violence is not that it disposes us to be more violent, but that it disposes us to care less about other people's violence, violence in other parts of the world, etc. What I was trying to say earlier about strangers and violence (and said totally wrong and unclearly) is that when we see violence as happening to other people (voyeuristic TV) then we DON"T see it happening around us, or see its victims as real people. I don't really think that occasionally watching a violent program or what ever renders one a moral monster. It just makes me think that for so many people this type of stuff is the majority of their TV/movie experience, and I don't think that's good. I'd like to add that I don't think that all violenct movies are harmful and voyeuristic. >>> Debra Euler 10/19 10:17 AM >>> Jane Franklin wrote: >>Now, I think matters would be different in terms of TV violence if we all lived in small city-states with coherent identites and had a certain amount of personal violence--war, slaves, sailing--as the background of our lives. For one thing, we'd know far more of the people we had the potential to be violent too, which would probably minimze (although I don't believe eradicate) the issue. For another, we'd have a more real feeling for the consequences of violence, which the Burbclave dwellers who watch shoot-em-ups generally don't. (Snowcrash reference...icky and bad) In short, my concern with violence on film is its exploitive, voyeuristic quality, rather than the simple fact of it. You're saying that most violence in the US (I assume you're talking about the US) is impersonal, committed by strangers. I think the reality is that we already know the people we have the potential to be violent to--they're our lovers, family members, children, co-workers, etc. The greatest amount of violence in this country isn't commited by serial killers, muggers, or drug dealers, it's committed by husbands beating their wives, parents and school bullies beating kids. It happens every day, in every town, but it just doesn't make it into the paper very often. Do I think that screen violence contributes towards this? Maybe--in some already disturbed people. But that's an entirely separate issue. To paraphrase The Simpsons, there was violence before cartoons, like that thing called the Crusades, where lots of people got killed. Taking away violence in movies and tv is only going to impede people's entertainment, it's not going to reduce anyone's bruises. Do we live in a much more violent society than before movies and tv? No matter what conservatives will tell you, I don't believe we do. Hey, I like action movies. I'm not a voyeur, I try not to exploit anyone, and the only time I've ever been violent in my adult life was when a teenager grabbed me in an extremely inappropriate manner (and I broke most of my fingers punching him in the face, which is a real consequence of violence). After a long day in the office, I go home to my suburban house and watch Buffy kick butt or a movie with car chases and people shooting at each other. It's stress cathartic. Or other times I'll sit down and read Trollope to relax. The violence of Buffy is about as real as the intrigues of Barsetshire, and both are about as injurious to my psyche. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:27:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Back to SF - Shadow Man In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Pat wrote: > Anyway, I can only think of two ways the use of hyperluminal would > produce both kinds of intersexed children (leaving herms out of it for > now.) Either it threw the androgen-generating system into chaos, so that > you had unexpected surges and unexpected lacks, or it offset the effects > of FTL travel and one increased and the other decreased the androgen, both > offsetting each other in a chaotic fashion. I found it interesting that Melissa Scott chose to include only three "non-standard" genders. In reality there are a lot more than that. I was kind of put off, though, by the presence of "assigned behavior" for the five genders. It reminded me of the present-day stereotypes. By the character and "common manner of action", the fems in Shadow Man reminded me of the traditional depiction of drag queens, strong-minded and glamorous; mems -- of the most sterotypical images of "butch" lesbians, unemotional and "good with machinery"; and herms -- of the image of the less "out" gay (or bisexual) men as "kinda men, but not completely". Especially that last idea of a "man's way" vs. "herm's way" of resolving a conflict. I really did not see what would make a herm more likely to leave and come back than to stay there and sacrifice zimself, other than common sense. I was wondering if the author used this approach on purpose, to expose the offworlder's gender-stereotyped thinking, but I'm not sure. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:56:42 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/98 9:44:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << To paraphrase The Simpsons, there was violence before cartoons, like that thing called the Crusades, where lots of people got killed. >> But...wait. How you balance things depends on where you set the fulcrum. I think our fulcrum is already off-center when it comes to violence. There are a lot of cultures that do not...and did not...use violence as a necessary part of interesting stories. I really can remember when no one in our neighborhood locked their doors, and when it was perfectly safe for ten-year-old girls to ride the bus to town...something I'm not sure I'd do as an adult. Something has changed, and out sense of violence has changed with it. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: OT Marina Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While I know it's off topic, and I'll try to do more of the email privately, I hope no one minds too much. I don't have the know-how to set up another list, or the resources. I also hope that people who are reading this are moved to help just a little, although I know everyone has their own lives, crises, and so on. But I will try to keep a more sf focus, myself. >>> "Demetria M. Shew" 10/20 10:49 AM >>> In a message dated 10/20/98 6:31:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << that the main purpose has to be to keep the sides away from each other, and punish war criminals no matter which side they belong to. >> I think one of the reasons is because, contrary to our John Wayne movies, the vast majority of the daily war criminals are ths soldiers. While it is true that a few generals etc set the tone, it is not they who do the actual rape and torture. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:29:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathy DeLuca Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 Debra Euler wrote the following: >After a long day in the office, I go home >to my suburban house and watch Buffy kick butt or a movie with car >chases and people shooting at each other. It's stress cathartic. I agree about the cathartic nature of violence. To my own surprise, I've really gotten into a shooting game my roommate has on his game system - it feels really good to be releasing so much energy and aggression. But I think it's extremely important to question why we need this sort of release. We need to look at the environment we're forced to live in and how that affects our relationship with violence. Debra mentioned needing some stress relief after a long day at work. Many of us work jobs that we dislike or are mistreated in, solely because we have to pay the bills. Maybe we're not happy with what we do, who we work with, etc. - all I know is that being dissatisfied with something that you spend the majority of your waking hours doing can only result in frustration - and thus the serious need for some sort of release. Also, there are so few situations in which women are allowed to be aggressive - watching violence then becomes one of the only acceptable ways to channel our anger. I think when you add the oppression of work, gender, race, etc. (I could go on forever), it is clear why watching violence can feel good. We have alot of anger and not alot of ways to express it. I think we're so numbed into submission that violence is a way to feel alive. Even if we're only watching it. For these reasons, I haven't been able to completely write off violence in the media. But on a gut level, I can't help but feel that a world without these depictions (ones of entertainment) would be better than the one we live in now. -Cathy DeLuca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:54:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tara Tieso Subject: Re: writer's group mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I would like to be on the list! Please add me. Tara Tieso Kitimher@aol.com Thanks! tara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:00:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I really can remember when no one in our neighborhood locked their doors, and when it was perfectly safe for ten-year-old girls to ride the bus to town...something I'm not sure I'd do as an adult. Something has changed, and out sense of violence has changed with it. But was it safe for any little girls other than Caucasian to ride the bus? And is it all that less safe for people to leave their door unlocked now, or are we just more aware of the danger? I personally can't imagine that burglars are constantly trying the doors of our houses to see if they're locked or not. If they want in, they're in, locks or not. And with what did we formerly buy this safety? Suppression of the poorer classes, long prison terms, a brutal police force, and a quickly enforced death penalty? You could say we've got all of those now in the US, but it's not the same as it was 50 years ago. It's true that there is more crime these days, but I personally attribute the greatest increase to the rise of the drug culture, which, except for the use of alcohol, didn't exist outside of the big urban centers back in "the good old days." And what about the pre-20th century USA? You know, wars, slavery, the systematic attempted destruction of the Native American population, labor riots, frontier and urban violence? Debra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:07:11 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/98 10:30:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cd@CME.ORG writes: << I think when you add the oppression of work, gender, race, etc. (I could go on forever), it is clear why watching violence can feel good. We have alot of anger and not alot of ways to express it. I think we're so numbed into submission that violence is a way to feel alive. Even if we're only watching it. For these reasons, I haven't been able to completely write off violence in the media. But on a gut level, I can't help but feel that a world without these depictions (ones of entertainment) would be better than the one we live in now. >> Wow. Good post. On the idea of violence feeling good...if you have ever had poison oak, you know scratching the infection feels just heavenly...but you make yourself bleed in the process and then get a WORSE infection. Have we gotten to the point where violence is the opiate of the masses? (I confess...I just loved all the shooting in Star Wars) Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:05:30 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Enough OT? >Umm... I feel like a cad doing this, and I have to wonder if it's >somehow because I'm male. Could we please move back toward feminist >science fiction on this list? While I understand your point, there is an argument (which I think I've made before!) that the underlying issues about society, politics, etc are ones which come up in feminist (and other) sf and f, and therefore have a bearing. But it's not an argument I'd want to push too far... Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:19:02 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/98 11:01:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DEBRA.EULER@PENGUIN.COM writes: << And with what did we formerly buy this safety? >> Yes, absolutely true. And...there was no question about the safety of little black girls because in our community there were no black girls (although, as someone of Mediterranean descent amongst all those blond Norskies I got one or two comments about the shade of MY skin...what a hoot!) I guess what I was trying to say is, it is possible to have communities where the people are not afraid to go outside, and where trust exists among people. Burglary was simply unheard of: and the suggestion that one lock one's door was considered an act of really awful insult to the characture of one's neighbors. And I think I'm trying to say that if you haven't lived like that, it becomes hard to believe such communities could exist. And I really think that has to change the tone of the stories we write. So, maybe if we change the tone of the stories..? I don't know why, but this reminds me of a something my mother told me. She said the Piedmentiese (Italians) did not have swear words in their language (with the exception of a version of merde). So instead of saying 'fuck you', they had to get really verbally creative and say: 'Better your parents had gone for a walk on the beach instead'. So...if we didn't have violence as a part of our creative language, wouldn't we have to really work at saying things about human life in a different way? and what would that way be? Just wondering. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:01:50 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: 'Free' societies was OT - homofobia >All right, their Natianl Health System is *still* completely free, if I'm >not mistaken, while in Italy you have to pay, not very much, for >medicines and such. We in the UK have to pay a prescription charge for medicines prescribed by general practitioners. However, visits to GPs, hospital investigations and treatment, etc are still 'free at the point of delivery' (i.e. already paid for, notionally out of tax and National Insurance) though subject to waiting lists. But as a relatively healthy individual who has nonetheless had a number of medical crises in my life (as well as ongoing problems like migraine) I'm certainly glad of it. And yes, I'm very aware, when I visit friends in the USA, of the warnings about where and when not to walk. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply In-Reply-To: <105e79aa.362cc0ca@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > I really can remember when no one in our neighborhood > locked their doors, and when it was perfectly safe for ten-year-old girls to > ride the bus to town...something I'm not sure I'd do as an adult. I think part of what made the cities more dangerous for female children, is ironically, the social progress. A lot of men saw the notion of freedom as the license to act upon their desires. Kind of like Howard Stern's obsession with being surrounded by half-naked young women to show off his "progressiveness." In a way, freedom became seen as the freedom to use women as sex toys. Which is of course not the fault of liberalism or women's movements, but the consequence of irresponsible beliefs of those guys from whom women can be either worshipped or abused, so when women don't want to accept the former, they "are asking for" the latter. Naomi Wolf writes a lot about that in her book "Promiscuities". I know I quote her a lot, but she is really cool. Another problem with the good times is that violence back then was not non-existent, but more confined to poor / minority neighborhoods, so that the nicer ones seemed quite safe. I don't know this for the fact, but I would think that black women, for example, did not feel that much safer in 50's, including the danger from men from the nicer neighborhoods. In other words, I don't think we have more violence now, I think it's just more equally distributed. That, and the fact that when women refused to be treated as "princesses" many men understood it as an excuse to treat them any way they pleased. I think violence in mass culture can be damaging mainly when it's shown as an acceptable means to enforce the superiority of one gender or social group over the other, even indirectly -- by repeatedly showing one group as the designated victims without trying too hard to point that there is something wrong with that. At the same time, exposing the horrors real violence can bring about -- like death camps, for example -- with all the pain it can bring to people, can be educational and in fact discourage that sort of thing in real life. Or when it shows that even people who are assumed weaker can defend themselves when necessary I think can be even empowering. Besides, in my opinion most adult viewers can distinguish the difference between the bubble-gum violence of teenage slasher movies with the one that's for real. I think that most Nightmare on Elm Street or Halloween fans would not be as excited over similar sort of a story if it was in any way realistic or say, was based on actuall events of serial killings of high schoolers. I think people who like slasher movies can be the same people who would cry watching a movie about the Holocaust. It's the difference of the approach, the degree of being associated with reality, and the viewer's general system of values. I think the concern about people being desensitized to violence by seeing it too often is a valid one. But I also think that as long as it's not the primary part of a person's upbrining, most of us can watch action movies or play action games without becoming violent ourselves. Besides, while violence remains a part of our lives, I think its reflection in mass culture can be helpful to explore it and find ways to deal with it. I also believe that since we are not that different from the cows that like to be by the railroads to experience strong emotions, simply denying that fact would hardly make it go away. And I do believe that the chance to "let off steam" is a civil manner, by playing Doom, for example can be helpful to avoid taking off the frustration on other people sometimes. Kind of like they sometimes tell married people, when they are mad at each other, to take a pillow, imagine it being the spouse, and beat it with a stick till the anger goes away. They say it helps :). This does not mean that all people should like violent movies. Some people have more anger and frustration than others, and those who do deal with it in different ways. And the line between promoting violence in culture and being honest with its existence can be very fine. This is what I think. Not to say that any of you is wrong. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:35:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: writer's group mailing list In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 98 13:54:37 EDT." <89501412.362cce5d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've added you to the list; it'll take an hour or two for you to get mail that is sent. The name of the list is fsf-writers@pa.dec.com; you can send questions about the list (like "how do I get unsubscribe" or "could you add my friend Alicia") to me or to fsf-writers-request. We're starting with introductions, it seems. I'll forward you what's been sent already. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:36:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: oops Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well, now you all know. :) Sorry about that; I meant to send it only to Tara Tieso . jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:35:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Wars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Madrone wrote: > > I think one of the reasons is because, contrary to our John Wayne movies, the > vast majority of the daily war criminals are ths soldiers. While it is true > that a few generals etc set the tone, it is not they who do the actual rape > and torture. I think the most demaging part of a war is that it often brings out the worst in people, the stuff that is usually covered by civilization. The problem with the leaders, though is that they often do little to discourage the crimes commited by their subordinates, and even help cover them up. Unfortunately . Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:43:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Marina's troubles In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There's an African woman who claimed asylum on the grounds that she was being returned to her traditional in-laws(? father's family?) who would subject her to genital mutilation done tribal style ... read Alice Walker for details, they're gruesome. She finally won her case, but her petition was refused at first/. She was even held in prison awaiting her appeal! There's a book out about it; ask at any feminist bookstore. We're turning back into the kind of country that kept out the refugee ships just before and during World War II (and imprisoned American citizens of Japanese descent!) Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:04:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Merris, Rhian M" Subject: Re: Marina's troubles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Patricia (Pat) Mathews wrote: > We're turning back into the kind of country that kept out > the refugee ships just before and during World War II (and > imprisoned American citizens of Japanese descent!) Yeah, we are. I hate that. Rhian rhian.m.merris@cpmx.saic.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:37:50 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: Off topic posts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, I am one of the many listserve participants who live outside the US. I sympathise with Marina's application for asylum, but when I want to be part of an organising effort against shitty immigration policy, I do it here in New Zealand where I live. I know the campaign is important to some list subscribers, so can you please organise it off the list? I am at the point of deleting up to half the posts to this list (not just the ones about asylum) as soon as I see them, since they are not related to SF&F literature or TV. I do find a few of them interesting, but I thought this list was not the place for general feminist discussion - there are other lists for that. Jenny R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:51:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Fake/real violence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Madrone wrote: > I guess what I was trying to say is, it is possible to have > communities where the people are not afraid to go outside, and where > trust exists among people. Burglary was simply unheard of: and the > suggestion that one lock one's door was considered an act of really > awful insult to the characture of one's neighbors. And I think I'm > trying to say that if you haven't lived like that, it becomes hard to > believe such communities could exist. And I really think that has to > change the tone of the stories we write. So, maybe if we change the > tone of the stories..? There are certainly many ways to live, but I can't imagine that aggression and violence are ever going to disappear. I come from a very small town that to this day has few locked doors. I can't remember ever hearing about someone's house being robbed. So there was a level of trust regarding personal possessions and many times town residents would bring over extra food for my family (we were quite poor). But my siblings and I were always conscious as children that our family "didn't belong" because our parents had moved there from somewhere else and, gasp! were well-educated book-reading types. There was plenty of bullying at school and a fair amount of blinkered prejudice. I now live in Burlington, the largest city in Vermont (even so, it barely deserves the designation of "city"). There's a lot more crime (for instance, my bike was stolen from my apartment last summer). The community is much less closely knit. And I vastly prefer it to South Ryegate. The tradeoff of dealing with a few more thieves and creeps is worth it if I don't have the sense of being watched and pressured to conform to values I do not share. It's an interesting question whether small communities that persist for generations can ever be as open and accepting of difference as cities seem to be. To bring this topic back to SF, Ursula Le Guin grapples with this question frequently. Sometimes it is recast as the old days vs. the new, but I wonder if this is simply because life in the United States has become so much more urban in the last century. Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that physical violence per capita may be lower in small towns, but people may experience equally violent, though nonphysical, oppression instead. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Elliott Smith -- either/or "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:51:03 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: The Mismeasure of Man Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 20-10-1998 22:43, Pat said: > We're turning back into the kind of country that kept out the >refugee ships just before and during World War II (and imprisoned American >citizens of Japanese descent!) There are some scathing words about this in Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man", a title that I never cease to reccommend - though in this setting I do find it a tad sexist... ;-) (The title, I mean: In its subject matter it's actally a very good antidote to any kind of discriminating thinking, and it does contain something on sexism too). It looks like mass screening for IQ levels (with very questionable methods, though Gould questions intelligence quotients in se) were done to WW I recruits, and the results were conclusively in favour of angolo-saxon white people being more intelligent than Eastern- or Southern Europeans or god forbid black people; so the immigration quotes were fixed accordingly and when the Jews tried to flee to America, so Gould says, they found the doors closed. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:20:01 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: RHS Linux User Subject: Re: : SF in different countries In-Reply-To: <362C404E.58E0@sff.net> from "Catherine Asaro" at Oct 20, 98 03:48:47 am Content-Type: text > > In the rest of Europe sf is popular, from what I hear. Swedes love it, > > French even write it, Germans translate a lot of it, and there used to be > > a *huge* market in the Eastern Countries. I don't know about Spain, > > though.) > > Spain does have some interest, including a program at the university in > Barcelona. From what I udnerstand, it is apparently one of the better > ones available. They also sponsor the UTC science fiction novella > literary prize, which is as far as I know the only prize for an sf > novella. They accept submissions in Spanish, Castillian, English, and > French. People can submit ms once a year. If people are interested, I > can post more details on the program and/or contest. > This got me thinking again about something I've wondered about for a while. How does the language you write in affect what you write, and how is that effect different from the effect the culture you live in has on your writing? In particular, I've been wondering whether science fiction is easier to write when there's lots of active research going on in your country, *and in your language*, and it's discussed in non-specialist magazines & newspapers. In other words, both the concepts and the vocabulary are out there in the wider world - you don't have to explain things, you can just casually refer to them, and you don't have to coin new words in your language to describe things, because they're already there. Feminist relevance? I guess I have in mind things like Ursula Le Guin's reworking of her essay on The Left Hand of Darkness, where she comments how using the male pronoun blinded her to some of the assumptions she was making, and how, if she hadn't been using "he/him", the story might well have turned out somewhat differently. If Le Guin's native language were Finnish, how would she have written that book? seren p.s. I'm also currently trying to decide whether to learn Spanish - anyone know how much good science fiction is available in Spanish? :) (as having access to lots more cool books is one of my major motivations for learning new languages!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:19:44 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: 'Free' societies was OT - homofobia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:01 PM 10/20/98 UT, Leslie Hall wrote: > >We in the UK have to pay a prescription charge for medicines prescribed by >general practitioners. However, visits to GPs, hospital investigations and >treatment, etc are still 'free at the point of delivery' (i.e. already paid >for, notionally out of tax and National Insurance) though subject to waiting >lists. But as a relatively healthy individual who has nonetheless had a number >of medical crises in my life (as well as ongoing problems like migraine) I'm >certainly glad of it. > And yes, I'm very aware, when I visit friends in the USA, of the warnings >about where and when not to walk. We have a similar system in Australia, though it is somewhat more complicated and in recent years there have been moves to relieve pressure on the system - for example, increasing incentives for higher-income earners to move into private health insurance arrangements. Personally, I prefer to see some balance between the capitalist "freedom" as seen in US systems for health-care and education, and the more socialist "welfare-state" policies found in western Europe and elsewhere. I suspect however in the face of 'globalisation' and 'economic rationalism', that most countries will move towards the "freer" US-style policies of rampant capitalism with no safety-nets. A similar situation to that which developed during the decades of instability and massive poverty of Dickensian proportions following the first _Industrial Revolution_, as nations moved from feudal economies to industrial ones. I believe we are now at the *Dawn* of a similar major historical shift - (which is also one of the themes behind my current speculative sci-fi novel). As for 'safety' in the USA - similar warnings from almost every major city/country in the world can be made. eg: I misunderstood directions I had been given in Amsterdam about avoiding certain districts, and found myself wandering in tears in a freaky spot for several hours. The same could be said from Tokyo to Bangkok, from Munich to Edinburgh etc. Julieanne jalc@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:54:38 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: : SF in different countries In-Reply-To: <199810202320.AAA11673@yon-net.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:20 AM 10/21/98 +0100, seren wrote: >> > In the rest of Europe sf is popular, from what I hear. Swedes love it, >> > French even write it, Germans translate a lot of it, and there used to be >> > a *huge* market in the Eastern Countries. I don't know about Spain, >> > though.) >> >In particular, I've been wondering whether science fiction is easier >to write when there's lots of active research going on in your country, >*and in your language*, and it's discussed in non-specialist magazines >& newspapers. In other words, both the concepts and the vocabulary >are out there in the wider world - you don't have to explain things, >you can just casually refer to them, and you don't have to coin new >words in your language to describe things, because they're already there. > >Feminist relevance? I guess I have in mind things like Ursula Le Guin's >reworking of her essay on The Left Hand of Darkness, where she comments >how using the male pronoun blinded her to some of the assumptions she >was making, and how, if she hadn't been using "he/him", the story might >well have turned out somewhat differently. If Le Guin's native language >were Finnish, how would she have written that book? > Here in Australia, I have been lucky enough to find English translations of many Asian sci-fi titles and authors. Far more than I can obtain of non-English speaking European authors, probably because we are so much closer geographically and economically etc. One of the things which strikes me in Asian sci-fi is there is less focus on 'technical' sci-fi, and more on philosophical and speculative sci-fi. Lots more alien-human interaction themes for example. But how much is 'lost' in translation I have no way of knowing. Julieanne jalc@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:41:35 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: Off topic posts In-Reply-To: <199810202036.JAA213330908915785@mail.iconz.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:37 AM 10/21/98 +1300, Jenny wrote: >I am one of the many listserve participants who live outside the US. I >sympathise with Marina's application for asylum, ..(snip).. > >I am at the point of deleting up to half the posts to this list (not just >the ones about asylum) as soon as I see them, since they are not related to >SF&F literature or TV. Jenny - I too have had some problems, especially with the *volume* .. which is partly due to the "upside-down-under" time-differences. 'Peak' times in the US are opposite to us down-here and the listserv e-mails flood in a huge batch. Digest format didnt really help for me either, but it may help for you and others. I recently finished reading Vernor Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_, which described using an intra-galactic communications network...one of the characters groaned at the failure of her computers to 'filter' the e-mail news-posts from billions upon billions of users, when their ship moved into certain regions of space. I had to empathise with her horror: "You mean in ancient times, people had to manually wade through the rubbish on the Net - ALL THE TIME?" Nonetheless - I am able to cope with most such irritations at this point in time because many of the posts concerning Marina's situation, violence, etc are relevant to my current work. Then again, much of it isn't ... at the least, postings of "Me too. I hate that" etc, and internal political/fund-raising efforts could be curbed on public fora. In the meantime, its grit-my-teeth and accept the fact that most large list-servs and newsgroups will contain a portion of off-topic threads and peripheral 'tangents', to be deleted in bulk sometimes... and hope that a 'super-smart' e-mail program is invented soon which can do the wading for me:) Julieanne jalc@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:26:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Off topic posts In-Reply-To: <199810202036.JAA213330908915785@mail.iconz.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hiya, I must have misunderstood and will pull up the guidelines, but I thought if you put O.T. as the subject heading that meant if you had no interest in the topic you could just dump it...whereas whatever topic set by the moderator is where everyone on the list normally will participate. Had this same thing happen on my Priory of Sion list before I went on my vacation, people who wanted to keep discussing an older topic had to mark the subject O.T. while the rest of the group or list contniued onward with the current topic, that way when you see O.T. you just trash it without thinking about it further. When I used my student account we used ELM for emails and I would hit the D key for all the posts I didn't care to open up then when I quit the program it would ask me if I wanted to delete so many messages it was quick the way I liked it, sometimes I miss it now that I use eudora for all my email 8) Jo Ann P.S. Just read Cyteen...my first encounter with CJ Cherryh if we do discuss that book am ready it had me thinking implication after implication about human beings grin. At 09:37 AM 10/21/98 +1300, you wrote: >Dear all, > >I am one of the many listserve participants who live outside the US. I >sympathise with Marina's application for asylum, but when I want to be part >of an organising effort against shitty immigration policy, I do it here in >New Zealand where I live. > >I know the campaign is important to some list subscribers, so can you >please organise it off the list? > >I am at the point of deleting up to half the posts to this list (not just >the ones about asylum) as soon as I see them, since they are not related to >SF&F literature or TV. > >I do find a few of them interesting, but I thought this list was not the >place for general feminist discussion - there are other lists for that. > >Jenny R > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:33:16 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: OT: Homophobia--murder of Matthew Shepard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HOMOPHOBIA Society stands accused of murder in Wyoming By Christopher Leland The cyclist who found him said at first he thought it was a scarecrow. I imagine Matthew Shepard there, bound to a fence on the dusty Wyoming plain in the middle of autumn: beaten, burned and left to die. The local sheriff suggested the motive was robbery, as if it were common in Wyoming for a mugger to burn and bind and pistol-whip someone before stealing his wallet. That Shepard was a gay man apparently did not enter into the sheriff's calculus. The assailants, like Shepard himself, were hardly more than boys -- 21 and 22 -- and yet acted with the refined sadism of trained torturers. What was most remarkable, said the reporter on the evening news, was how "average" Shepard's tormentors were, just "small-town normal." To this I would say yes, just average, just small-town normal --- and full of a hatred and loathing that could make them take a young man not much different from themselves and subject him to crimes like those in the Balkans that make us shudder. One of the young men, according to his girlfriend, had been humiliated because Shepard "flirted" with him, sufficiently so, it appears, that he and his friend would indulge in murder. The concrete guilt for this crime is theirs, and they will pay the price. But for the roots of what transformed them into monsters that chilly October night, we need not look very far. I accuse Wyoming, which over the years refused to institute hate-crime laws. Its governor only now sees the need to press vigorously for such protections. A state legislator once compared gay men to bulls who failed to stud and hence were better consigned to the slaughter house. I accuse state governments in general, beginning with that of my home state of Michigan, which in its own hate-crime legislation of 1989 removed sexual orientation as a protected category and has rejected repeated attempts to reinstate such language. Gov. John Engler has continually reiterated his view that any amendment to the present law is not needed. The Legislature has, in remarkable pettiness, reduced university budgets by precisely the cost of those universities "domestic partner" benefits. I accuse more than three-quarters of willfully blind high school administrators who responded to a poll about protections for gay and lesbian students by saying they "had no gay or lesbian students." Teachers and coaches mouth antigay slurs with no thought as to their implications and ignore such slurs when repeated by students. The president of Michigan State University, rather than voicing his outrage after the appearance of the graffiti "I kill fags" on campus, issued a lukewarm statement unlikely to raise an eyebrow on fraternity row. I accuse the American military. Colin Powell, himself beneficiary of policies which flew in the face of 200 years of racism in the armed forces, nonetheless defended policies discriminating against the thousands of gay and lesbian service people who have served and continue to serve their country honorably. Officers ignore even the weak-kneed policy that is "don't ask, don't tell" and continue to hound gays and lesbians out of the service. I accuse the U.S. Supreme Court, which in 1987 determined that the State of Georgia could snoop in its citizens bedrooms. It repeatedly refuses to hear the appeals from lower courts regarding "don't ask, don't tell." Just last week it upheld a Cincinnati ordinance that forbids any city action to protect the rights of its gay and lesbian citizens. I accuse Congress and leaders such as Senate Majority Leader Newt Gingrich, who compare the mysteries of human desire to kleptomania and alcoholism. I accuse the president who, despite his support for gays and lesbians, carefully calibrates such support to the perceived political winds. I accuse, most emphatically, religious leaders, from local preachers to Pat Robertson to the pope, whose reactionary, partial and often incorrect readings of Scripture have given spiritual sanction to discrimination and hatred against gays and lesbians. I accuse the American people. They are so insecure about their own sexuality, desires and bodies that they do not demand respect and full citizenship for their gay and lesbian fellows. They buy the logic that gay rights are "special rights" --- such rights as a job, a house, the freedom to feel safe in one's home and to love whom one pleases. To those who would deny such accusations, I ask: What have you done to counter the homophobia that threads its way through this culture? What letter did you write? What march did you take part in? What money or time did you contribute? What joke did you refuse to laugh at? When did you confront your legislator, your pastor, your brother-in-law, your daughter about some egregious, wrong-headed or hateful remark? To see the consequences of you complacence, your willful inattention, your own bigotry, look no further than that windswept plain outside Laramie. Look upon that battered face, bowed head, tortured body lashed to timbers there in the wind. Behold the man. This is what you have wrought. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Christopher Leland of Detroit is an author and an English professor at Wayne State University. Write to him in care of the Free Press, Editorial Page, 600 W. Fort St., Detroit, Mich., 48226. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:51:52 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: Women as robots Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/17/98 11:51:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, phoenix@HEMLOCK.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU writes: << Many people have compared the use of robots in popular culture and science fiction as a representation of women's treatment by a modern patriarchal society. What do people here think? >> A male friend of mine told me he'd like to have a Stepford wife, because she would say, "Ohh, you're the king! You're the best!" I told him if he did it right, a _real_ woman would say that. So I don't think the men need robots! They just need to do better! Lurima ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:54:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: : SF in different countries In-Reply-To: <199810202320.AAA11673@yon-net.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >This got me thinking again about something I've wondered about for >a while. How does the language you write in affect what you write, >and how is that effect different from the effect the culture you live >in has on your writing? The first part of your question, I used to believe that how your wrote was based on how well you were educated but more and more I find that this is less so. I have met people in my life who speak in a lyrical sense, yet did not finish high school but the same person could converse to you in the most expressive language (my primary language is English) or is able to make such satisfying word choices that you walk away feeling the conversation was definitely a wonderful experience in storytelling...I love to read translations of works from a language into english to see how the inflections are perceived and transform into something I understand on my own level...the cultural part of your question I sort of put with the environment you live in...for example my cousins were visiting with my sister and I at their home and they told us this hilarious story about how even though they were the help for this big society dinner they were catering the hosts thought they were stealing this mercedes they had dropped car keys in front of in, not realizing it belonged to my cousin...the story my cousin told me was living example of how cultures do cross paths and sometimes it is interesting to observe what occurs as a result of this culture clash... > >In particular, I've been wondering whether science fiction is easier >to write when there's lots of active research going on in your country, >*and in your language*, and it's discussed in non-specialist magazines >& newspapers. In other words, both the concepts and the vocabulary >are out there in the wider world - you don't have to explain things, >you can just casually refer to them, and you don't have to coin new >words in your language to describe things, because they're already there. > This part of your question got me to thinking too. There are different degrees of storytelling. When it comes to Science Fiction, to me it is who is your audience...for example I remember reading the jacket of this book at the library that sounded intriguing. The premise was you had a little computer mechanism inside your brain and everything about your identity to what was in your bank account was based on these slots you plugged into at certain stations...I got home, opened the book and within about 30 pages I lost interest because the technology overtook the plot and it was like reading a Gray Anatomy book about neuron processes, and in order to understand what was happening to the protagonist, who was female and had recently gotten a new identity implant, I suddenly had to understand how the brain worked in a terminological sense...not just that but the detail was so exact and specialized that I had a major tension headache when I decided it was too much work to find out what was indeed going on...It must have been a good story to someone because it was published in a hardback form, but in my case it was way over my head technically to comprehend the story being told and that interrupted my pleasure of reading a good story. In my second Fiction writing class there was this fellow who turned in a very technological based novel chapter that described a device implanted into the brain that allowed the user to access a main console where communications were sent from to all of her troops and allowed her to communicate to all her troops at the same time while floating in a single spacesuit hooked by a cable to a spaceship...this time I saw what he was doing, but how the technology was being used as in how the commander communicated to her troops, was not that clear. So even though we exist in a country where there is pretty incredible technological stuff happening, how the writer uses it has a lot to do with the finished product. I mean it is a balancing act to express a complex idea in fiction to have your audience understand and yet be entertained or be able to enjoy the context that technology is being used. Anyway, hmmm, now am not sure if I answered right...been a long day and my computer is not behaving might have to replace the CDROM sigh. hugs Jo Ann ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:08:02 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <19981020235052.OXLG3448.fep04-svc@[212.216.41.178]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:51 AM 10/21/98 +0200, you wrote: >At 20-10-1998 22:43, Elethiomel wrote: > >> We're turning back into the kind of country that kept out the >>refugee ships just before and during World War II (and imprisoned American >>citizens of Japanese descent!) > >There are some scathing words about this in Stephen Jay Gould's "The >Mismeasure of Man", ...(snip)... It looks like mass screening >for IQ levels were done...... (snip).. so the immigration quotes were fixed accordingly and when the >Jews tried to flee to America, so Gould says, they found the doors >closed. > Most countries establish some sort of 'screening' mechanism to allow/block entry by refugees, migrants or 'outsiders' by whatever name. I guess the underlying idea is "we cant take them all, so what criteria do we use to draw-the-line between who we will, and who we won't, allow in?" Allowing one batch in on the grounds of compassion, will open the flood-gate for others to follow. Such 'selection criteria' vary throughout time and place. In recent years, many countries are 'closing doors' as economic downturns proliferate, just as they did during the 1930's and WW2: and the conditions placed on applications by refugees, migrants etc are becoming more and more restrictive eg: age, health, educational status, political or religious backgrounds etc. IQ tests for 'discriminating' amongst desirables and undesirables may not be popular now, but there are many other criteria to manipulate as a basis for deciding who would be allowed to live "the good life" and who would be excluded. In the film _Gattaca_ it was genetic profile for example. In the book I'm working on, its sort of assumed that such decisions have to be made in an over-populated and environmentally decimated world. The lucky powerful and richer nation-states, organisations, enclaves and individuals have to decide who they will help and who they leave to perish, and what criteria they would use to determine those categories. One of these groups refused to make any such decision but used a "lottery" system. However, I am really stuck on some ideas in this area .. so I would like to ask the list for help in gaining some new thoughts on this fiction scenario: If you were a member of a privileged, comfortable group - with a million refugees knocking on your door ...but, you are only able to help, say for arguments sake, 10% of them.... - which would you choose and/or on what grounds would you choose them? Or what conditions would you place on their acceptance? Also, how would you deal with the rejected ones? (btw: bizarre, absurd, fantastic, unrealistic, or witty, humorous ones are welcome too:) Also any books or stories which cast angles on this sort of scenario would be appreciated:) Thanks Julieanne jalc@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:18:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: enough OT Knowing that "me too" posts are as large a waste of space as any OT post, I have to agree that I too, am scrolling down what seems like miles of OT posts to get to something touching on feminist science fiction. It can be argued that everything touches on feminism or on fiction or on science, in the philosophical sense that everything effects everything else. But it's my understanding that this list is not about "everything", it has a few limitations. The occasional OT post can be interesting, but reams of posts about Bosnia, or the view from South Africa of the treatment of Vietnam veterans, interesting as they could be in another context, have stepped very far into the realm of annoyance. I don't consider myself a heartless person, but had I wanted to be on an international political list, I would have joined one. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:35:46 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: : SF in different countries In-Reply-To: <199810202320.AAA11673@yon-net.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Oct 98 RHS Linux User wrote: > This got me thinking again about something I've wondered about for a > while. How does the language you write in affect what you write, > and how is that effect different from the effect the culture you > live in has on your writing? I think culture is more important than language in this context. For example in a summary on SF in the former German Democratic Republic I've read some time ago it was said that that SF often was a hidden critique of the conditions in the GDR and West Germans would often find the books boring simply because they miss all these references, they would not get 'it'. Something similar I've read once about the novels of the Strugatzki brothers. Or Godzilla (however the spelling is). While it was a success in other parts of the world, I've often heard that for Japanese the movies were a way to work through the Hiroshima trauma. But I am no linguist (far from it). Perhaps someone can give further examples on the effect of language. > In particular, I've been wondering whether science fiction is easier > to write when there's lots of active research going on in your > country, *and in your language*, and it's discussed in > non-specialist magazines & newspapers. In other words, both the > concepts and the vocabulary are out there in the wider world - you > don't have to explain things, you can just casually refer to them, > and you don't have to coin new words in your language to describe > things, because they're already there. I don't think so. IMO science fiction is not so much about science and technology (but do not ask me about what it is ;-) ). I think the specialist terms in SF are not vocabulary of the wider world but are coined in SF books and other media (e.g. Warp) and reused by other authors. > p.s. I'm also currently trying to decide whether to learn Spanish - > anyone know how much good science fiction is available in Spanish? > :) (as having access to lots more cool books is one of my major > motivations for learning new languages!) I'd be interested, too. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:25:33 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Women as robots In-Reply-To: <37854c43.362d5a58@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Barbara R. Hume wrote: > A male friend of mine told me he'd like to have a Stepford wife, because she > would say, "Ohh, you're the king! You're the best!" I told him if he did it > right, a _real_ woman would say that. So I don't think the men need robots! > They just need to do better! > When THE STEPFORD WIVES came out, I asked my then-husband why the men felt they had to get rid of the real wives. I'd have gone halves with him on her! She could do the things I didn't want to do, and sit at the table with the corporate wives at parties while I played poker with his co-workers. And yes, I saw the latest WELCOME TO PARADOX. It could have been written by Terrence or Plautus about a clever new slave girl.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:29:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: FEMSF help? (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:33:50 +0100 From: Maryelizabeth Hart To: Pat Subject: FEMSF help? Dear Pat: Could I impose on you to forward this to the list for me while I figure out how to fix my email addy? ~~~~~~~~ Subject: a little OT maybe -- Octavia Butler interview Nicely done interview with Butler in the 10/18 edition of the Los Angeles Times Magazine. Lots on her personal background. Looking forward to seeing her at the store in December. Working on PARABLE OF THE TALENTS right now. Yay! ~~~~~~~~ Many thanks, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:37:27 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: Fake/real violence -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 20-10-1998 18:44, Jane Franklin said: >After much thought, I realize that what I am trying to say about >television violence is not that it disposes us to be more violent, but >that it disposes us to care less about other people's violence, violence >in other parts of the world, etc. I think it *could* be fictional violence that de-sensitizes people, but it it probably something else. As a matter of fact, this is the first time in the history of mankind when people have to possibility to know about violence, aggression, oppression, an slaughter that happens in the world. Once, you simply didn't know: you knew about your neighbour shooting his wife or an anarchist trying to kill the King, and that was about all. Until the end of WW I people had very idealized ideas about war, and I think that in America, the first chance to really see what it meant close up came with the Vietnam war. So what happens is that media coverage, even if sort of bowdlerized, exposes us to a great deal of things that are emotionally very hard to bear - especially since they make you feel terribly impotent to do anything about them. De-sensitization is an understandable way out. After a while, the only emotional strategy that seems to work is "it doesn't happen to me or mine, so it doesn't concern me". People in far-off countries or even people different from you in your own country come to be seen as fundamentally alien. Here in the North of Italy people will tell you that all sicilian are mafiosi and it is part of their genetic makeup or something like that if they go on killing each other. Sicilians use a different strategy: they think it's a problem that only concerns *those* families, and not real people. In any case, this becomes a neat excuse not to meddle in those disgusting alien's affairs - leaving them fundamentally be. You can understand how this translated into not fighting the Mafia at all, for example. Only when Sicilians realized the problem invested them too some steps toward fighting the phenomenon were done. And part of this re-sensitization was done by a fictional TV series about the Mafia. Actually, I think fiction - the right kind of fiction - can do a lot to re-sensitize people about violence. Identification can force people who have been distancing themselves from it to experience it as a personal problem, and break down the Somebody Else's Problem barrier. Of course this doesn't mean that I don't agree with the idea that people who live very pacific lives feel the need to experience the thrill of danger and violence. And I also think there is a pornography of violence. I don't know if anybody's read _An Exchange of Hostages_ (to get a little back in topic: it's sf, it's written by a woman, but I wouldn't call it feminist: its worst characther is a woman, not only a sadist but an incompetent one...) which is I think a wonderful example of how bad this kind of pornography can get. I think that getting a kick out of violence is a different strategy to come to terms with the same emotional problems I talked about. You can't make it go away, so you end up actually learning to like it. At least it makes you feel happy to be walking out the cinema on your own two feet. When I was in the grip of a very bad depression one of the few things that helped me was watching Alien I, which I had on tape, and which to this day I can't say to have seen in its entirety (there are moments of the hunt for Jones the cat when I still have to cover my eyes). Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:46:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: SF and language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (Amazingly, back on topic. I extend my apologies for so many digressions. When I get caught up in some political thing, I completely lose my head. I'll try to privately email those who seemed to have been interested and I hope it wasn't absolutely the most annoying part of your day....but now, an actual observation on sf!!!) In Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time, she uses a lot of consciously invented words, most strikingly "per" to replace he or she. As in "per is a hard-working person"...I actually found myself accidentally using this one in conversation, although the other words were not so compelling. And in Ursula le Guin's Dispossessed, there's the invented anarchist language, Pravic, where the expressions like "higher", "lower" to connote importance are replaced by "more central". And then there's no verbal distinction between work and play and no swear words either. I always wonder, though, if our language didn't have words for feelings or ideas, wouldn't we just construct long fancy locutions for things? Or have vague unfocussed feelings we couldn't put words to? After all, novels are basically long fancy locutions for things we don't have specific words for. George Orwell suggested that a group of writers and artists form to consciously create new words, especially words for things in dreams. He also suggested using the cinema to make "definitions" of new words that everybody could see and understand. I think this assumes a lot about the nature of movies, but it's still a rather charming notion. Also, did anyone see Lucy Lawless on Saturday Night Live? I was rather appalled, but then I only watched the first half. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: : SF in different countries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know a lot about Japanese science fiction? From what Japanese fiction I've read (in translation) there doesn't seem to be as clear a boundary between sf and non as there is here. I read a truly horrifying story of a woman being impregnated by an insect in an entirely mainstream anthology, and there's also the work of Haruki Murakami, especially A Wild Sheep Chase and Hardboiled Wonderland and the End of the World, which have a flavor of...almost cyberpunk without the technology. Both the novels deal with science fiction concepts...in WSC, there is the spirit of a sheep, sort of, which can get inside a person and give them a kind of ruthlessness and certain abilities; HBW deals more with language and computers and control over ideas. (Some of the same themes from Pi, actually, but handled with a bit more depth) There's also a book of Japanese SF short stories which came out in the mid-eighties. (Probably available in academic libraries, that's where I found it) which has one of my favorite stories ever in it--beautifully translated and conceived. It deals with a town with a legend of a ghostly girl who may have been crazy or may have been vistited by aliens. (synopsis can't do this story justice) Anyway, the Japanese SF I've read seems to use a lot more local legend kinds of things than does American. Also, how does anime fit into this? I don't watch a lot of anime, but Japan's premiere female cartoonist, Rumiko Takahashi, produces this comic called Ranma ½ , about a boy who turns into a girl when he falls into cold water and only turns back if doused with hot. (speaking of gender issues) He is engaged to a boy-hating martial artist girl. (It's also really racist against Chinese people, just to warn you) Speaking of which, anyone read any Chinese/Hong Kong/Taiwanese SF? Or seen some of the fantasy/SF soaps that come out of Hong Kong? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:00:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: *An Exchange of Hostages* (was Fake/real violence) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elethiomel wrote: > Of course this doesn't mean that I don't agree with the idea that > people who live very pacific lives feel the need to experience the > thrill of danger and violence. And I also think there is a pornography > of violence. I don't know if anybody's read _An Exchange of Hostages_ > (to get a little back in topic: it's sf, it's written by a woman, but > I wouldn't call it feminist: its worst characther is a woman, not only > a sadist but an incompetent one...) which is I think a wonderful > example of how bad this kind of pornography can get. In defense of this book, I don't consider it to be pornography. I've read both it and its sequel, *Prisoner of Conscience* and still have the feeling that I'm missing something regarding the author's intent. The second book added quite a bit of background and I have the feeling that a long series of books may be on the way that paint a broad picture of this ghastly future (basically, the Spanish Inquisition goes galactic). One may wonder why the author has chosen to spend so much time imagining so disturbing a dystopia, but I think it's jumping to conclusions to decide that it's because she gets a naughty thrill out of describing torture. From the comments I've read on Usenet and Amazon.com the people who have read the book have either been completely sickened or interested by the psychological and sociological implications. I don't think anyone who liked the book did so because they thought the torture was cool. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Elliott Smith -- either/or "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:15:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephanie Jackson Subject: SF in Different Countries/Anime Content-Type: text > Also, how does anime fit into this? I don't watch a lot of anime, but Japan's premiere female cartoonist, Rumiko Takahashi, produces this comic called Ranma ½ , about a boy who turns into a girl when he falls into cold water and only turns back if doused with hot. (speaking of gender issues) He is engaged to a boy-hating martial artist girl. (It's also really racist against Chinese people, just to warn you) > I can think of several anime series that are feminist in the dictionary definition (treating women and men equally), that also show strong women in positions of authority. Of the ones that are also science fiction: Bubblegum Crisis, which is a series about four women that banded together to destroy 'Boomers', a type of rogue AI, Gunbuster, which focuses on two (possibly three) young women (Highschool age) who are charged with piloting ships called Gunbuster against alien attacks, Shin Seiki Evangelion (aka Neon Genesis Evangelion), which is a complex conspiracy tale involving three children (14 years of age) who pilot supposedly mechanical machines called Evangelions, protecting Earth from the Angels (Definately my favorite anime series /ever/!), and Tenchi Muyo!, which is about a member of a extraterrestrial royal family and his son who lives on Earth, and has, well... Strange adventures. Not only are these series good stories with excellent animation quality, sharp characters, and fun watching, they also present women in a fairly favorable light, unlike many shows on TV today. Each series has a woman in some sort of command role, with women friends, dealing with life. In fact, each series main characters are all or mostly women. -Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:34:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: *An Exchange of Hostages* (was Fake/real violence) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find An Exchange of Hostages really hard to read. I bought it on the spur of the moment, hoping it dealt with things from a political prisoners angle. (and for vacation reading, no less...a cheery holiday was had by all) It doesn't seem to have feminist implications so much as gender-characteristics-for-male-people ones and class ones. I was truly creeped out by the main (upper class) character's ignorance of non-upper-class life and by the images of control and order in all aspects of life. I didn't really feel that the author was interested in criticizing the society she described (where legal torture is the norm..much more interesting to read Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer books) so much as interested in describing one person's reactions to it. It really just seems like an SM/SF novel, what with the main character being forced to carry out these acts that he finds repellant yet alluring...sort of Story of O. (Anyone read Angela Carter's DeSade's Women? Not my normal reading material by any means, but I went on a Carter kick last year...) I do think it was pornographic, but that doesn't mean I disapprove, exactly. It seemed like the logical extension of violent pornography...it didn't leave out the horrible parts, like Anne Rice books do. People actually died, grotesquely. I found myself really jolted by the death of the women the main character executed. It's so unusual for a writer to have a relatively sympathetic main character do something like that, in such detail. It seemed rather clumsily written and plotted, though. Reminded me of a Dorothy Alllison story (which was much better written) which was also pornographic and SM. (Don't get me wrong here, this is hardly my typical reading, but I'm really interested by Dorothy Allison, and if she writes pornography, I may well read it simply because it's hers) And disgusting and horrible and murderous. Oddly, that was what made it work; it was honest about the urge for violence, instead of just making it into some prettified scene where the blows don't really hurt. We have a complex relationship with violence; even when we enjoy it, whether as an experience or in art, that enjoyment is fraught with difficult emotions. Much mainstream "you're enjoying violence" stuff seems to me to pretend that violence is enjoyed the same way that chocolate is. I also realize that I'm biased in favor of text...violent writing is ok to me, where violent movies aren't. Shame on me for a hypocrite and an elitist.... >>> "Janice E. Dawley" 10/21 10:00 AM >>> Elethiomel wrote: > Of course this doesn't mean that I don't agree with the idea that > people who live very pacific lives feel the need to experience the > thrill of danger and violence. And I also think there is a pornography > of violence. I don't know if anybody's read _An Exchange of Hostages_ > (to get a little back in topic: it's sf, it's written by a woman, but > I wouldn't call it feminist: its worst characther is a woman, not only > a sadist but an incompetent one...) which is I think a wonderful > example of how bad this kind of pornography can get. In defense of this book, I don't consider it to be pornography. I've read both it and its sequel, *Prisoner of Conscience* and still have the feeling that I'm missing something regarding the author's intent. The second book added quite a bit of background and I have the feeling that a long series of books may be on the way that paint a broad picture of this ghastly future (basically, the Spanish Inquisition goes galactic). One may wonder why the author has chosen to spend so much time imagining so disturbing a dystopia, but I think it's jumping to conclusions to decide that it's because she gets a naughty thrill out of describing torture. From the comments I've read on Usenet and Amazon.com the people who have read the book have either been completely sickened or interested by the psychological and sociological implications. I don't think anyone who liked the book did so because they thought the torture was cool. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Elliott Smith -- either/or "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:17:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Galdamez Subject: unscribe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please drop me from your list. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: *An Exchange of Hostages* (was Fake/real violence) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jane Franklin wrote: > [*An Exchange of Hostages*] doesn't seem to have feminist implications > so much as gender-characteristics-for-male-people ones and class ones. > I was truly creeped out by the main (upper class) character's > ignorance of non-upper-class life and by the images of control and > order in all aspects of life. Yes, the station where he studies torture is amazingly claustrophobic. It highlights the deathly stasis of the entire society, one which we learn in the next book is seriously beset by conflict on its borders. As far as gender issues, they exist but are not addressed directly (somewhat like the child abuse in *Alien Influences*). I noticed that when women become bond-involuntaries they seem to universally serve as sex toys, whereas the men become guards and personal servants (though they are often sexually abused as well). It's clear that this is not because the author thinks women are incapable of being soldiers -- one of the major characters in the second book is a very competent woman officer. I think it's more that she views this future society as being a slightly more equalized version of our own: women are more often seen in roles of power, but they are still subjugated in many ways (as is a huge percentage of the population). > I didn't really feel that the author was interested in criticizing the > society she described (where legal torture is the norm..much more > interesting to read Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer books) so much > as interested in describing one person's reactions to it. It really > just seems like an SM/SF novel, what with the main character being > forced to carry out these acts that he finds repellant yet alluring... I think describing the society is criticism in itself. It's damn ugly. But I think she goes further in the second book, which is about a prison where Holocaust-like abominations are occurring. It's a biting irony that the officials crack down on the prison simply because they have been torturing and executing without a license! I can't believe this was unintentional on the author's part. Re: *Shadow of the Torturer*. Just finished reading all four books of the New Sun. I didn't find that there was that much psychological insight or sociological relevance to the books. They were much too heavily weighted with Christian symbolism, which I personally found off-putting. It's implied that the only reason Severian is able to transcend his upbringing in the Torturer's Guild is that he was fated to do it. And the new sun, which will save this dying world from itself, will cause a devastating flood a la Noah, conveniently ridding the planet of all those "corrupt" folk. They were interesting books simply for the style and all the obscure references but culturally penetrating they were not. > I do think it was pornographic, but that doesn't mean I disapprove, > exactly. It seemed like the logical extension of violent > pornography...it didn't leave out the horrible parts, like Anne Rice > books do. People actually died, grotesquely. I found myself really > jolted by the death of the women the main character executed. It's so > unusual for a writer to have a relatively sympathetic main character > do something like that, in such detail. Hm... I thought pornography was supposed to be enjoyable. Who enjoyed the violence in this book? Does it become pornography because the main character enjoys torturing people while simultaneously being presented as a fairly moral person (compared to those around him)? I found Koscuisko's quasi-sexual enjoyment of torture to be the most problematic element in the books, a sticking place that couldn't be avoided. It was interesting to me because it made me question the us/them boundary. I identified with Kosciusko to some degree simply because he was the main character and struggled to do good. But his torture trances were undeniably BAD, about as evil as can be. I struggled to imagine how I might resolve such a contradiction in my own psyche. It's a difficult question, one I think is worth asking. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Elliott Smith -- either/or "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:41:11 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: *An Exchange of Hostages* (was Fake/real violence) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 21-10-1998 17:34, Jane Franklin said: >I didn't really feel that the author was interested in criticizing the >society she described Me neither. I think she *wanted* to be interested in it, I think that was probably her rationale for writing the book... but was actually just paying lip service to it. I may be guilty of the same, actually. I hope not, but Matthews' book helps me understand what I *don't* want to do in my writing. (where legal torture is the norm..much more >interesting to read Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer books) Right. Wereas Wolfe does not pretend anywhere that he disapproves of torture - he's loyal to his character, and Severian doesn't come from a culture that would have our reactions. But he manages to make his few torture scenes as terrible as they can get. You don't get a jolt out of them, for sure. (I particularly liked the scene in which Severian argues for the value of torture to an unresponsive Dorcas. It was not meant to convince the reader, but it made you see how Severian could believe in all of that. And Dorcas' detached silence was a better rebuke than anything. Wolfe is probably not a feminist, but he has a point, in a different sense than the literal one, when he says "All man are torturers, one way or the other"). so much as >interested in describing one person's reactions to it. The problem for me was that those reactions weren't believable. I finally lost it when Koshuisko, who is obviously a sadist, isn't aroused when looking at torture *on tape*. Come off it. > (Anyone read Angela Carter's DeSade's Women? I did! I found it great. Unfortunately I lost my copy - twice. Carter seems to think of Sade as a protofeminist - having read the man, I find this very hard to swallow. But she has some good points. > >I do think it was pornographic, but that doesn't mean I disapprove, >exactly. It seemed like the logical extension of violent pornography...it >didn't leave out the horrible parts, like Anne Rice books do. People >actually died, grotesquely. I found myself really jolted by the death of >the women the main character executed. It's so unusual for a writer to >have a relatively sympathetic main character do something like that, in >such detail. Yes, I agree with this too. > >It seemed rather clumsily written and plotted, though. Yes, exactely. We have a complex >relationship with violence; even when we enjoy it, whether as an >experience or in art, that enjoyment is fraught with difficult emotions. >Much mainstream "you're enjoying violence" stuff seems to me to pretend >that violence is enjoyed the same way that chocolate is. I agree here too. There is a lot of that, and very well done, in Banks' Complicity (there is also a rape fantasy and discussion thereof!). Come to think of it, Banks wrote a lot about this things and never compromising. There is one of his books that's usually pretty much reviled by fans, Canal Dreams, which is about a middle-aged deceptively mild-mannered Japanes cello player who is forced to resort to a lot of violence. I wonder how much of the disquiet people feel is about how clear and naked the issue is there - and about a woman doing this kind of things. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:41:04 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: *An Exchange of Hostages* (was Fake/real violence) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 21-10-1998 17:00, Janice E. Dawley said: >One may wonder why the author has chosen to spend so much time imagining >so disturbing a dystopia, but I think it's jumping to conclusions to >decide that it's because she gets a naughty thrill out of describing >torture. From the comments I've read on Usenet and Amazon.com the people >who have read the book have either been completely sickened or >interested by the psychological and sociological implications. I don't >think anyone who liked the book did so because they thought the torture >was cool. I think the torture was cool.:-) It was the rest that I didn't like. Let me be clearer. I am deeply annoyed by those books - The Fifth Secret Thing comes to mind - that when they have to describe a torture scene do it thus: "Ah, we don't need to mess around with *physical* torture, we have this neat new gadget that induces a terrible *mental* pain in the subject..." (Compare and contrast with Bujold, who never sidesteps the issue like this: a writer I initially considered very superficial - Mills and Boon in outer space, I thought when I read Shard of Honour - but whose uncompromising emotional sincerity slowy won me over, and whom I think would be interesting to look at from a feminist point of view). Torture is a serious thing and I don't like it to be trivialized. It goes toward that desensitizing that I talked about. If you have to talk about torture - and if you want to talk about real life you might have to, because it's rather common in this jolly little world we share - you have to talk about it honestly, that is, as an unbearably horrible thing. As a matter of fact there is quite a great deal of torture in the novel I'm writing now. I think I have managed to make it if not as sickening as it really is, at least sickening enough for readers to be disturbed. I tried to make it believable: to make the reactions of people practicing and suffering it believable. I write like this because I am disturbed by this kind of things, because I find knowing they go on difficult to bear and I want to vent my anger and make other people as angry as I am. I want them to feel bad about it, I want them to identify with my characthers and I want them to find torture, to anybody, everywhere, a personal insult. I also want them to recognize the mechanisms that bring people to torture other people, I want them to understand and not be able to dehumanize and distance even a torturer - I want them to be horrified but still capable of recognizing how much of that violence and horror is inside us, how easy it would be for somebody to manipulate us into believing in an enemy to hate and destroy. I like writing torture scenes and I recognize the glamour they have and I want my readers to understand what black hole of the soul spews forth this glamour we feel. The problem with AEOH is that, well, that the torture is cool. It is as cool as some fantasies of it are, but the reality is not cool at all. AEOH is not about torture at all, it's about fantasies. And the problem is that I don't think it knows it. I read a couple of posts on Usenet about it and *really* got curious. I thought it was probably more interesting than they made it out to be, and I certainly wasn't going to be shocked by a bit of gore and blood, not after passing the Wasp Factory Test with flying colours (not to mention a couple of pages in Player of Games). But after having read it, yes, I think it is an elaborate plot built around a personal obsession with sadistic fantasies (I don't think there is anything wrong with having a sadistic imagination, as long as you are aware of the fact). And I also incidentally think that it is rather badly written, but perhaps that's just a matter of personal taste. I found all the characters absolutely unbelievable, and their relentless self-searching tiresome and curiously deadening (the more they searched their soul, the less I felt like giving a damn about it: perhaps because I didn't bought their internal thought processes, I don't know). Interestingly, the only thing I found really, really good about it is that short sex scene - I found the writing beautiful, sensual, the imagery original and very effective, and the overall effect stunning. Perhaps Matthews should leave the moral side aside and write about what really is under it: sex. Hey, I don't even have anything against pornography per se. :-) Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:00:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: OT - me, last time - promise In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, to be honest, I hate asking people for help, for this exact reason -- somehow it always turns out that you are bugging them. I apologize for making you spend your time deleting the off-topic messages. I did not realize it was so much of an effort. Anyway. I promise not to mention what's going to happen to me anymore. I do realize it's not as interesting as science fiction. Those who are still willing to help me avoid deportation, please let me know in a private email. Thanks for your time, and once again -- my apologies. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:52:33 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: : Murakami and Magic Realism and SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jane, in your post you mention Murakami. I love his work. I have noticed this "Magic realism" in his work as well as other Japanese fiction I have read. Magic realism isn't really the right term for this stuff, but I can't think of another term. It's not exactly SF, because these stories are still set in the world, and not in an invented one. (Though all fiction involves some kind of invented world!) I was thinking about magic realism in the posts asking about SF in Spanish-- I was wondering what relationship SF has with magic realism and authors like Marques and Borges, Puig, Allende? I am currently reading Murakami's Wind-Up Bird Chronicle. It has that same droll narration creating a world of paranoic coincindences-- but as usual, a completely companionable voice. I like spending time with the voice in his books. It's long and very sad, and terribly violent in parts-- but all of it is necessary to the story. Has anyone else read Murakami? Thoughts? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sutliff Sanders Subject: Re: :Murakami/Japanese science fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:52 PM 10/21/98 +0000, you wrote: >Jane, in your post you mention Murakami. I love his work. I have >noticed this "Magic realism" in his work as well as other Japanese >fiction I have read. I haven't read much Japanese science fiction, though the mainstream stuff by Banana Yoshimoto (?) is particularly good. Did anybody read that compilation that OS Card ostensibly helped put together--_Black Mist and Other Japanese Futures_? Opinions? Joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:25:03 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: RHS Linux User Subject: Re: : SF in different countries In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981020205451.007d85c0@silent-running.com> from "Jo Ann Rangel" at Oct 20, 98 08:54:51 pm Content-Type: text > So even though we exist in a country where there is pretty incredible > technological stuff happening, how the writer uses it has a lot to do with > the finished product. I mean it is a balancing act to express a complex > idea in fiction to have your audience understand and yet be entertained or > be able to enjoy the context that technology is being used. > Thanks, that's a good point. It's made me remember that part of the reason I started wondering about language and SF is that I noticed that reports written in Welsh sounded a lot less high-falutin' and impressive than science reports written in English. I decided that this was at least partly because the scientific terms in Welsh could be broken down into word parts that were in common use - so it was very easy to see what a word meant by just breaking it up into the short common words. In English, scientific terms often seem to use Greek or Latin roots - which aren't as easy to work out, so you can write much more impenetrable prose in English when you're writing up lab reports! It's interesting I guess - a lot of scientific papers seem to be written deliberately to confuse and obscure their actual meaning, because the author isn't confident enough that what they have to say will be impressive enough in plain language. Or maybe I'm just being too cynical, and it's just because they're very bad at expressing themselves, and (mistakenly) think that they have to use long words to say things precisely. I wonder if scientists who read lots of science fiction write better papers as a result...? Maybe not, if the stuff they read is like the book you described with the huge infodump on neurons & implants. seren ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:50:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: magic realism & race Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I got a spare moment yesterday to treat myself to personal web time with some URLs I'd squirreled away, such as this interview with Nalo Hopkinson: http://www.amazon.com/nalo-hopkinson-interview The interviewer asks some clueless questions. For example "What made you decide to combine Afro-Caribbean culture and voodoo with the more traditional SF setting of a future dystopia?" to which Hopkinson gives a nice reply along the lines of writing what she knows. Of course the question would never even have been asked if you substituted "celtic" or "traditional European" for "Afro-Caribbean". The interviewer also asks if Hopkinson considers the book SF or Magic Realism - she replies that she considers it "speculative fiction" -- another excellent answer (isn't all fiction speculative, by definition?) But the earlier racist question made me suspicious about the label "magic realism". To what extent are books with this label written by authors either not white or not north american? Do those authors generally see their own works as regular fiction (whatever that means these days) or something more like science or speculative fiction or fantasy? Is the term "magic realism" actually a racist code of sorts? I seem to recall reading something about this somewhere fairly recently -- the NYRSF? Who knows. These thoughts are too coherent for me to have come up with on my own, though. What do you think? Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:32:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nicola Griffith Subject: Re: magic realism and race Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jennifer, I went to look at the Hopkinson interview. I think that Craig Engler's question regarding combining Afro-Caribbean culture and traditional sf settings could also be viewed as an info-dump question, that is, letting readers know that the book *is* a combination of cultures. A little clumsy, perhaps, but not necessarily racist. Is Nalo on this list? Nalo, what do you think? Nicola Nicola Griffith http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:34:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: magic realism & race In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Oct 98 13:50:09 PDT." <19981021205244370.AAA294.229@jennifer.actioneer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Is the term "magic realism" actually a racist code of sorts? Actually I would have said that books with the code "magical realism" get more respect than SF, at least in the US -- all I can speak for. Perhaps there are places in the US where this isn't true, but I see Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Gloria Naylor (_Mama Day_) portrayed as "literature" where science fiction never is. I've been given those books by (distant) relatives, or teachers who were trying to wean me off of SF&F. And honestly, I had a really hard time with some of them, because I had so clearly set up the distinction between "fantasy" and "real life" -- I liked things to be "real" or "not", and I couldn't really handle meshing the two. I read _Mama Day_ as "not", as a fantasy, which I think was a diminishing of the book; and I struggled with _Love In the Time of Cholera_. Real or fantasy; yes or no; this genre or that. I just wasn't used to reading about real events with magic in them, if that makes sense. I think this is what Nalo Hopkinson means by "the split between technology and faith" -- I have a very hard time not making that split. So I'm really happy about the genre-meshing that's going on, from a number of different angles. I'm very fond of Ellen Kushner's _Swordspoint_, for instance, in part because everyone says "Oh that's a fantasy" but it has no magic in it. It just has the characteristic look-and-feel of a Fantasy (TM). Also the _So You Want To Be A Wizard_ series by Diane Duane, which is straight fantasy up to the third book, where the newest wizard programs her spells on a laptop. Whoah. In a related novel, _The Book of Night With Moon_, one of her characters says: "Sometimes She [the Goddess, basically] Whispers [ie, speaks in the wizard's mind] and sometimes she sends email and I can never tell which She's going to do next." I would agree that the interviewer sounds clueless, but again much of it is that s/he is assuming the audience is clueless, as when s/he asks about the title. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: : SF in different countries Comments: cc: m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 21 Oct 98, at 15:25, RHS Linux User wrote: > I mean it is a balancing act to express a > > complex idea in fiction to have your audience understand and yet be > > entertained or be able to enjoy the context that technology is being > > used. It's also made more difficult if the "scientific idea" or "technology" being described is fictitious and perhaps impossible or even ludicrous in terms of our present knowledge. There the writer has to describe the technology in such a way as to encourage the reader to willingly suspend her critical faculties. Catharine Asaro (_Catch the lightning_ is a good example) describes concepts so well and sneaks in the dubious bits so cleverly that one is lulled into belief in spite of one's self. On the other hand, CJ Cherryh (_Cyteen_ as an example) uses a very different method. She tends to outline concepts sketchily but so skilfully that one is drawn into filling in the (fictitious) details for one's self. The main point though is that neither author allows herself to get so engrossed in the technicalities that she forgets to be a story teller. Suzette Haden Elgin (in _Native Tongue_ which I've just re-read) tends to do just that - making an already irritating book much more so. > It's interesting I guess - a lot of scientific papers seem to be written > deliberately to confuse and obscure their actual meaning, because the > author isn't confident enough that what they have to say will be > impressive enough in plain language. Or maybe I'm just being too cynical, > and it's just because they're very bad at expressing themselves, and > (mistakenly) think that they have to use long words to say things > precisely. A writer has to write for a particular target readership. Most scientific papers, for example, are written by scientists in a particular field for other scientists in the same field; such people would regard the "long words" of which you complain as being necessary for precision because they have meanings far beyond that which you could derive from etymological analysis. I've just read 2 reports by the same writer on a Siberian gold deposit. One, for the shareholders, is in "plain English" while the other, for the risk analysts, is in "scientific English" and full of words like "heteroscedastic". Neither group will have the least difficulty understanding the report they're given. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:07:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: magic realism and race In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, you're right, it could be viewed in a non-racist way -- I'm being deliberately provocative here. But that's one insidious nature of racism, isn't it. As I've said before, I consider it my duty as a white girl to point this stuff out when I can, and at least get people to talk about it. I'm happy to be wrong, just afraid I might be right! In the interview, Engler returns several times to various aspects of Afro-Caribbean culture -- if we didn't get it from that question we do by the end of the interview. I think the reason it stood out for me as "racist" is that I wondered if it would occur to Engler to ask _why_ a different writer had based her story in a culture she had grown up in. If it's an info-dump question, as you point out, it's clumsy. Nalo was on the list at one point, but I haven't seen anything from her in ages. At 05:32 PM 10/21/98 -0400, Nicola wrote: >Jennifer, I went to look at the Hopkinson interview. I think that Craig >Engler's question regarding combining Afro-Caribbean culture and traditional >sf settings could also be viewed as an info-dump question, that is, letting >readers know that the book *is* a combination of cultures. A little clumsy, >perhaps, but not necessarily racist. > >Is Nalo on this list? Nalo, what do you think? > >Nicola > >Nicola Griffith >http://www.sff.net/people/Nicola >