Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9811B" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:44:20 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > Recently it seems that there's been a rush to say that one's opponent can > only make valid comments if s/he uses the same forms of analysis, or has > read the same books, or can follow the increasingly obscure (yet often > unexplained) citations of chapter and verse. Could we knock it off? This > is a discussion group. It's not quals. It's no one's oral exams. You're > not on their review board, you're not weighing them for promotion, you're > not on their thesis committee. If you disagree, disagree in a productive > way. I'd much rather be told where people who agree or disagree get their information from than have people just spout their own opinions. John just said he disagreed and wrote a lot of patronising stuff that didn't make any sense to me and certainly didn't have anything to do with what the poster said. If he disagrees he should tell us which authors he's read that show other people are wrong. Otherwise you dont have a debate, you just have people shouting at each other. In a debate you have to have reasoning, which means you have to give thought to what you say and respect the other person's point of view enough to actually give reasons instead of just airing your prejudices. Your own way of arguing is just as bad or worse because you do not even try to consider anyone elses point of view. All your posting does is just attack someone who at least tries to explain what theyre thinking. Maybe you dont like the way that they do it, but I dont think that gives you the right to start laying down the law about how debaters are supposed to present thir cases. I dont know how else you think people are supposed to explain their reasons without quoting or giving the name of the book etc from where they got it. I like to be told where a poster gets her info from, I like to hear about what books someone thinks explains or says something about sf/f in an interesting way, and I like to hear which sf/f books cover what subjects. If you dont want to debate something then just stay out of it. But stop acting like a slave master giving orders to the fieldhands again. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: <199811070631.AA24380@nsl-too.pa.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:31 PM 11/6/98 -0800, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: >Speaking of Christianity in F&SF--when I read the Narnia books, I had >zero exposure to Christian theology, but I'd read up on all the "old >pagan traditions", and been in a couple of theatrical performances >that drew heavily on the idea of "sacrificing" the personified harvest >in the fall, only to have it rise again in the spring. It seemed >obvious to me that that was what was happening with Aslan. Doesn't >make the intent any less Christian, but it didn't do much to me when I >was ten or eight or whatever. Yeah, I missed most of it when I originally read it, around age 10, I think. Except for the final book, *The Last Battle*, which really disturbed me. I felt betrayed to learn that the Narnia I had read about in the other six books was somehow a cheap imitation of the real, perfect, Narnia. And I really did not enjoy watching it become corrupt and fall to pieces in what I dimly understood to be Judgment Day. I decided even then that it was a worldview I wanted no part of. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:01:09 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Guiding Children's Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a child, my memories of the library were that it was a solitary activity. Neither of my parents finished high school, and what passed for reading material in our house were the captions beneath the pictures in Life magazine. The public library was not within walking distance, or else I would have lived there during daylight hours. Sometime during those years, my parents bought a 14-volume set of Childcraft. It wasn't an encyclopedia, exactly; nor was it a literature collection, not exactly. It was something of a cross between both. The early volumes had the little-kid stories about bunnies and badgers and elves and elephants. There were wonderful retellings of folk tales from many different lands. This was actually my introduction to favorites like The Nightingale, The Blind Men and the Elephant, and so on. Middle volumes had some literature -- I met Caddie Woodlawn here -- but also information about various cultures (called "nations") in the world. The illustrations were gorgeous. I remember being stunned that the men in Greece -- the SOLDIERS in Greece! -- wore fuzzy pom-poms on their shoes. It sparked an interest in costumes and dress that lasted well into my adult years in the Society for Creative Anachronism. The last few volumes in the series were entirely non-fiction, and dealt with science and industry. I think I memorized all fourteen volumes. These days, "Children's Literature" is an established entity. College Courses are taught about it. I took one myself. There are librarians who actually know not only what is on the shelves, but are familiar enough with the insides of the books that if you go to one, and say, "I like THIS book," they can even steer you to others you would like. There are various awards given, for various types of children's books. It isn't difficult,, if you have access to a library, to find out "the best" books for children. The web also has some great sites which not only recommend book lists. but provide download-able literature. Project Gutenberg is probably the best known of these. Children who are going to be readers, however, will find a way. When I couldn't get to the library, I lived off of Little Lulu and Archie and Veronica and Betty and Jughead. I don't remember any adult guiding me in my reading. We didn't have a separate children's room in our library, though I suppose there must have been a separate children's section. I can't imagine them putting Ferdinand the Bull in the same section with Lolita. The popular thing these days seem to be the Goosebumps series. I don't get it. But then, I fail to see the attraction of Transformers, Ninja Turtles, and My Little Pony. Of the infamous doll with proportions that would equal 52-26-30, we will not speak. The biggest recommendation I can make, however, is read TO your children. WHAT you choose to read is almost irrelevant, at first. As you keep it up, you will find that your taste develops mutually. Reading aloud to children is probably THE most important thing you can do to instill a love of literature. It never failed to amaze me that my "honorary nieces" still wanted me (and/or their mother; or any handy adult) to read to them, even when they were ten and twelve years old. I have also been surprised that even students who are certified dyslexic love books, if their parents read to them. And, although I have no statistics to back me up, they seem to work harder in school, and become better students. Sharon L. Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:26:44 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Nature / Nurture (was Democracies in sf/f) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8 Nov 98, at 0:30, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > Anthea, you make it sound as if John has made an obvious factual error. > But the way in which your original statement was worded was far from > "exact" compared to his "vagueness." How about both of you come up with > some particulars? I haven't read any Elizabeth Moon or Bujold and very > little Tepper, Bradley or Cherryh, so I would love to read an overview of > political structures and the underpinnings of heroic virtues in their > works... Actually I was just throwing out a random thought which occurred to me last month and which I've been desultorily picking at ever since. I didn't want to put in any detail until someone else picked up the thread. John's comment on "fantasy" vs "sf" is of course true, but since I used "sf/f" I think I covered all my bases. I hope I'm not going to offend "somebody" but I'd like to complete my random thought. I wasn't actually thinking of "democracy" but of which historical societies on earth "most" sf/f cultures were modelled after. I reached the conclusion that four societies were common - the late Roman republic, the early Roman principate to Vespasian, the Byzantine Empire from ~600CE and - most importantly of all - Europe (mostly Italy) of the 14C to 16C (the era of the condottieri, the rise of the great mercantile houses, the final flowering of the Renaissance and so on). Of course sf/f societies would likely be debased, mutated or idealised versions of these and I'm not suggesting that some or any sf/f writers pick up a history book before they start writing but still... For example: looking at McCaffrey's "brainship" universe, the "High Families" remind me of the great European aristocratic and/or mercantile families in 14-16C (the Fuggers for example). Superficially I suppose they also resemble the great US capitalist families of 1900-40, but these were largely nouveau riche whereas the "High Families" were aristocratic. I haven't read all "brainship" books, but in those I've read all the "brains" are from High Families (can't find my copy of _The City Who Fought_ to check that one) whereas most(?) brawns are from the "labouring" classes. Someone offlist reminded me of a really good example of a aristocratic / mercantile "Family/clan" dominated universe - Simon R Green's _Deathstalker_ universe. He's written 4 books (_Deathstalker_, _Deathstalker Rebellion_, _Deathstalker War_ and _Deathstalker Honour_ - haven't read the last). His society is an eclectic mixture of Rome, Byzantium and 15C Italy. Another random thought: people have talked about "invisible peasants" but what about the "invisible middle classes" in many sf/f works? In technological societies one would expect a big middle class, but one doesn't seem to see them that often - except as often anonymous technicians, doctors and so on. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _______________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:42:04 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Childhood books, library, & parents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My experience with my parents and books, for what it's worth: They were both extremely intelligent but uneducated people, who grew up in near-poverty and big families. My mom quit high school to help support the family during the Depression; she loved to read and wanted to be a nun, but the family was against it (tried to arrange a marriage for her, even) and when she first needed glasses to keep reading, she only got them from a charitable priest. She was very independent, still, in the circumstances--- during the War, she worked at General Electric. An older man there taught her how to blow glass for a certain type of tube, and then told her that the men who used to do that job got paid more than they were offering her. She insisted on receiving the same pay, and was the first woman in the company to be paid the same wage as a male worker. She wanted me to be smart and educated, and did as much as she could when I was a kid to give me books and make sure she and my dad got me to the library. Aside from my books, though, there wasn't much in the house to read aside from Time magazine, mysteries, and a shelf of books left behind by a previous tenant The only books my mom owned, aside from a collection of Philo Vance mysteries, were her old high school lit book, Hamlet, stories from The Arabian Nights, and The Call of the Wild. I don't ever remember my dad sitting with a book, although he did tell my brother and me bedtime stories that he'd made up. They never talked to me about what I read, or really wanted to hear about it, although they read everything (everything I showed them) that I wrote. When I was about 8, the mother of a family friend died, and left me a box of her childhood books--- I still have Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm, illustrated with stills from the movie with, it looks like, Mary Pickford, and Treasure Island-- they went to my younger sister briefly, but I stole them back. My Aunt Connie also let me read books in her house: we had a large family, and my brother and I were left with one or another of my aunts very frequently. Right after Disney's Alice in Wonderland came out, Aunt Connie said I should read the real book instead, and gave me her copy: I liked the movie, but this was strange & wonderful stuff! We also got to rummage through the collections of all our cousins, although they mostly consisted of comic books--- still, great stuff, and things we could swap and talk about. We acted out a lot of scenes, mostly battles or expeditions, from our reading on these family visits--- also during holidays, when the adults were gambling or cleaning up. Anyway, more to the point, I went to the library regularly since I was about 5 or 6. I don't remember when it started, but I began to wander over into the adult section, and my parents would check out just about anything I handed them. I can only remember my mom getting upset about content twice: once when she looked into an historical romance that she thought was too sexy; and once about Andersen's "The Snow Queen"--- she thought that mocking the angels was blasphemous, and we had a real row that involved my teacher before I got the book back. When I was about 12, my dad decided I was reading too much. They never bought me a book after that, and from then on I had to hide books, sneak off to read or read in the middle of the night, and get to the library myself. Now, in their 70s, they read quite a lot. Neither one has ever cared for sf or fantasy at all, and it's very difficult to find books both/all enjoy, but at least when I'm making an extended visit we all go to the library together again. My brothers and sister (all younger) didn't fare so well. The older brother never did read much after early childhood (he was 6 years younger, but we did share some books), and didn't go to the library on his own--- so far as I know, they never did anything to try to boost his skills. The twins (brother and sister) were born just before my book cutoff. I left home when they were 8; we'd moved to Virginia, from New York, by then, and the schools were vastly inferior. They didn't get the same attention from my mother that I did--- I kept sending books, but I was trying to keep my distance from the family, and wasn't that effective, I guess. I did send or recommend as much sf as I could, then; my brother started reading Bradbury, Asimov, and Clarke first, I think. I don't remember him reading any sf written for children. I gave my sister A Wrinkle in Time; the scientist family appealed to her (she went on to become a marine biologist). Anyway, they weren't encouraged to read or haunt the library, and the younger brother, at least, is still trying to catch up on the reading he missed as a kid. With their background, especially the bad schools, worse tv, and isolation from the extended family, it's almost as though we grew up in two different cultures. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 08:40:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: SNOW QUEEN questions? / book access / list discussion elements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For anyone interested, I'm in touch with Joan Vinge, and if anyone had specific questions they would like her to address from SNOW QUEEN, I can forward them to her. At present she is hard at work on a new novel called TANGLED UP IN BLUE. It's set on Tiamat, in Carbuncle, during part of the time of THE SNOW QUEEN. ~~~~~~~ I had pretty free access to books during my youth. Including being allowed to check stuff out of the adult section of the library. The only censorship was exercised by my mother at the check out counter, when she would put back any items she didn't feel were appropriate [I still haven't read THE EXORCIST]. My favorite memories of fantastic reading include a wonderful series of fairy tale books broken down by country. It gave me a real feel for diversity and commonalities. I also was a quick reader, who was fortunate to have parents and teachers who worked together to take me out of my sixth grade English class for the two weeks they were supposed to be teaching us "speed reading" skills, when I was in tears after the first day and trying to use the techniques had actually *slowed down* my reading. So for the next 9 days I was allowed to sit in the hall and read my library books! Bliss! Sympathy to Caroline for her dreadful experience. :( ~~~~~~~ I think Jessie's point (paraphrased) about using text and ideas to reinforce one's arguements without using them to be dismissive of others' views is a good one. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:59:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sutliff Sanders Subject: Re: prejudice in literature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:51 PM 11/7/98 EST, you wrote: >"...'Take what you can use and let the rest rot.' If ever there was an >expression designed to protect the health of the spirit, this is it."--Alice >Walker, from "In Search of Our Mothers' Gardens" > >This is how I have had to read most of the books I have ever read>snip< Reading some authors is like loving your >relatives in spite of their racism, sexism, etc., knowing that they're all you >have and they're not all bad, but they're always going to make you suffer >some. > >Glenda >Gasp!< My initial reaction to this was, "Yeah, but what about how these things twist the spirit and reinforce the status quo!" But then something inside me thawed as I read Glenda's post again. Without giving unwavering support to her post, I want to say thanks for reminding us of this important point of view! Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:04:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Gingrich joins the Winter Queen It looks like Gingrich did take that long boat ride with the Winter Queen after all. And he says it gave him a feeling of peaceful serenity to do so. I guess they're mixing up that herb drink just right in the House this week. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:49:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Subject: Re: Gingrich joins the Winter Queen In-Reply-To: <001301be0b4a$9f39bfc0$d24b2599@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:04 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >It looks like Gingrich did take that long boat ride with the Winter Queen >after all. And he says it gave him a feeling of peaceful serenity to do so. >I guess they're mixing up that herb drink just right in the House this >week. > >Joyce Hehehehehe! Wish it was hemlock.... Sorry for the OT unpaid political snotty remark, but Joyce's comment was just too funny to pass up. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." -Matt Ruff in Sewer, Gas, and Electric Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:49:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: please read this! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Raphael Carter's "Congenital Agenesis of Gender Ideation" is out, in STARLIGHT 2 (ed. Patrick Nielsen Hayden, a 1998 hc from Tor.). I've had the pleasure of hearing Raphael read this at two cons. It's the driest screamingly funny humor I've ever heard, and, if you're acquainted with Raphael, very personal. And it's just right for this list. Neil Rest NeilRest@tezcat.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:25:39 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Kirschling Subject: Re: Gingrich joins the Winter Queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >It looks like Gingrich did take that long boat ride with the Winter Queen >after all. And he says it gave him a feeling of peaceful serenity to do so. >I guess they're mixing up that herb drink just right in the House this >week. > >Joyce :) yes, gingrich is a starbuck figure if i ever saw one; unfortunately, our winter queen, in the form of a republican-controlled congress, is still very much alive, and worry over who his replacement will be (dick armey?) is the only thing preventing me from putting on my festival mask and dancing in the streets. i do have to say, though, that this is the very first time in my voting life that i have been somewhat happy with the results of an election (i live in san francisco, ca). as the cold, rainy season begins i am hoping that summer is finally on its way. k.k. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:00:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f In-Reply-To: <19981107042933.21152.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:29 AM 11/7/98 MET, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >I have been very hard put to think of >more than a very few books in which the "revolution" or whatever resulted or >was planned to end in a democratic government. The best that seems to happen >is that a "mad tyrant" is replaced by a benevolent despot, or an aristocratic >/ mercantile oligarchy. It's true, I can't really think of ANY science fiction books that even mention voting as a political process (except for Heinlein's *Starship Troopers* which presents a very weird vision of democracy). However, there are quite a number of SF books that attempt to flesh out political systems that do not and have not existed in reality. Ursula Le Guin's *The Dispossessed* is one of the more famous examples. Slonczewski's *A Door Into Ocean*, Gloss's *The Dazzle of Day* and Piercy's *Woman on the Edge of Time* all foreground consensus models of decision-making -- an alternative that seems a lot more workable to female writers than male, I think. And there are a large number of science fiction books that are limited in scope enough that politics or other forms of world-building don't come into play. Many seem to briefly sketch out decaying military-industrial complexes for background -- not surprising given our current reality. :) ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 15:18:58 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: thots MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there is absolutely no way to avoid offending people with this post, so let those someone's just say i'm an a--hole and disregard the post completely. but for anyone-who's-interested's information: after three months, i am unsubscribing for now because i cannot abide another three weeks (before The Sparrow discussion) of not only *not* talking about the selected work but also of competitive posing by certain people as being more informed or keyed in or having more connections, etc. and a better understanding of the sf/f canon than anyone else. several here are so sensitive that little can be broached which remains outside their negative critical purview. it seems that any request for moderation or humility is met with insensed lambasting by those who are the least able to accept others' differing opinions. maybe this group is not what i was looking for when i signed up, and in that i am the only one to blame (because blame is definitely the order of the day around here) for hanging around long enough to become disenchanted and then fed up. i will have to go elsewhere if i want to hear or contribute thoughtful opinions about a target selection without fear of being purposely misunderstood and taken to task for the most trivial point, thereby creating off-topics to spin out into absurdities which can serve no other purpose than to piss everyone off. we all know what i'm talking about but, obviously, none of us is responsible for it. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:19:54 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: "question of what guys are" (was Bujold) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin articulated what I was thinking in response to Steve and other posts about all-male groups. I don't disagree with your descriptions. I just wonder what they would be like if from birth they hadn't had to police each other for sissy behaviour and establish to themselves and others that they were "not-women". I think all-male groups would then be very different. Jenny R ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 15:08:55 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Kirschling Subject: Re: BDG snow queen (on-topic this time) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain don't know how much i can add to the discussion, but i guess that this book almost qualifies for me as a revisited childhood reading experience. it came out around the time i started high school, and i have been rereading the same paperback, considerably browner with age. i remember being dazzled by the scope, the rich detail (very visual), the cycles of capture and escape, corruption and redemption, the diversity, strength and imperfection of the characters. i am amazed that i did not grasp how faithful the novel was to the original andersen story, which had been a childhood favorite of mine. nor was i politically evolved enough to see the "first world - third world" parallels, although the class conflicts were obvious. on rereading, my first thought was that i would definitely describe it as a feminist space opera. so many of the characters could be rewrites or updates of those i knew from other sf/f, movies, tv - sparks the restless, corruptible innocent; arienrhod the ruthless ice queen; jerusha the tough daddy's girl turned embattled strong woman, etc. perhaps the only difference here is that the strongest characters, almost without exception, are women. moon and jerusha are definitely role-model material - not perfect, but they are strong and determined, and they keep their integrity. my 2nd impression was annoyance with her writing style; she had a tendency to "tell" rather than "show" where a character's thoughts, feelings and motives were concerned, so that future twists of plot and character were often much too obvious (although maybe this was just my own memory kicking in). lest you think this is an entirely negative review, however, by the time i was halfway through it either her writing voice strengthened or the story took over, and i couldn't put it down. another thing i noticed about her writing style, and this is not a bad thing, is that she seemed to enjoy her tough-talking city dwelling characters the most (e.g. jerusha, tor, herne) and this gave the parts of the book a very american, hard-boiled flavor. part traditional space opera, part noir flick. interesting. re: the sequels, i read world's end and gave it away soon afterwards. the main thing i remember about it was that i found it hard to take all the abuse she meted out to bz, who had been one of my favorite characters (hadn't he gotten enough in the 1st book?). too much "hurt" without "comfort", i guess. i read the summer queen just a few years ago and loved it. without the traditional fairytale framework, the plotting and characters seemed less stock, more inventive and contemporary in their problems and concerns. i had just begun reading sf again after a long absence, and it was like a breath of fresh air. i didn't mind the length or the sprawl. sorry for being so long. take care, k.k. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:46:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: "question of what guys are" (was Bujold) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to agree with you, Jenny. As the daughter of a completely nonconformist male, I've always been very skeptical about a lot of behaviors that others tell me just come attached to that "Y" chromosome. In fact, I don't buy it. But then, I'm a female who's driven 50 miles out of her way more than once to avoid asking for directions...who when upset, holes up the cave and growls at people...etc. These are "male" behaviors, supposedly, but they're mine and I am decidedly female. Go figure. But when you stereotype, you lose so much. IMHO, Nina Jenny wrote: > Robin articulated what I was thinking in response to Steve and other posts > about all-male groups. I don't disagree with your descriptions. I just > wonder what they would be like if from birth they hadn't had to police each > other for sissy behaviour and establish to themselves and others that they > were "not-women". I think all-male groups would then be very different. > > Jenny R ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG: SNOW QUEEN questions? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:40 AM 11/8/98 -0800, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >For anyone interested, I'm in touch with Joan Vinge, and if anyone had >specific questions they would like her to address from SNOW QUEEN, I can >forward them to her. At present she is hard at work on a new novel called >TANGLED UP IN BLUE. It's set on Tiamat, in Carbuncle, during part of the >time of THE SNOW QUEEN. Ooh, ooh! I'm really interested in her approach to characterization in her novels. How much does she map out her plots ahead of time and how much does she allow herself to be "led" by her developing characters? I ask because for most of *The Snow Queen* there is no hint of the major role Gundhalinu will play towards the end, and none at all of how his own story will come to overshadow Moon's in the following two books. It seemed that she became more intrigued by him as she continued writing and decided to try him out in different environments. Since we started discussing the books I've been pondering why I like his character so much. I think it has to do with his dual role as object/subject. As a heterosexual woman with a very butch manner I've always felt a combination of identification with and desire for men (I once thought of it as being a homosexual man in a woman's body, but was ultimately unsatisfied with that idea as it denies the importance of my co-existing identication as a woman). So I've found that I enjoy depictions of men that allow me to feel this dual attraction/identification. Gundhalinu is one of those characters for me. Another was, believe it or not, Keanu Reeves in the movie *Speed*. It must be indicative of the power differential in modern society that it's a lot more common for women to write these kinds of roles than it is for men. Very few men I have met have had any interest in fully understanding what it means to be trapped in the female gender role, to see things from the other side. And some attempts (as in the novels of Tom Robbins) come across to me as being very WRONG. Of course, it could be that Gundhalinu is completely unconvincing to male readers. I once exchanged email with Lawrence Watt-Evans (a fantasy author) about M.J. Engh's *Arslan* and he maintained that the character of Hunt Morgan was obviously written by a woman because his sexuality was *all wrong*. (I think this says more about how narrow Watt-Evans's idea of male sexuality is than about Engh's biases, especially since Samuel Delany and Orson Scott Card loved the novel.) Thoughts, anyone? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:32:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Claudia said to Jesse: >If you dont want to debate something then just stay out of it. >But stop acting like a slave master giving orders to the fieldhands >again.> I guess you are still carrying a grudge Claudia. Perhaps you could take it up privately vice displaying it here. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:38:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Gingrich joins the Winter Queen In-Reply-To: <001301be0b4a$9f39bfc0$d24b2599@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > It looks like Gingrich did take that long boat ride with the Winter Queen > after all. And he says it gave him a feeling of peaceful serenity to do so. > I guess they're mixing up that herb drink just right in the House this > week. By the way -- good job at the elections, those of you who are US citizens. I thought we were going to end up with a 100% conservative Congress, the way things were going lately according to TV. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:59:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: Nature/Nurture in sf/f In-Reply-To: <19981107181335.22391.qmail@www0j.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > > So it's very difficult to respond to your generalised comments because your > statements are too vague. Well, they weren't really any more generalized and vague than your original comments, but since I have now been encouraged I shall try to clarify myself a bit. Looking back over these posts I now suspect that I misconstrued what you meant in your use of the nature/nurture "battle". You seem to be referring to the issue of the distribution of power within societies in fantasy and science fiction settings. I picked up on another, and what I suspect is more common, sense of the nature vs. nurture debate and that is their respective roles in shaping human behavior and identity. So our comments went completely past each other. What really prompted me was your example of the ill-fated Lady Syzyrgy and her tattooed bootom. That is to say, that type of story where someone who thought they were just an average person discovers that by virtue of the hitherto unknown specifics of their birth their true identity and destiny make them a great hero and leader. This "born to rule" tale has implications for both of the nature vs nurture debates that I described above. It falls on the side of nature in the political system, and it falls on the side of nature in individual identity in that what seems to be the overriding feature of Lady Syzyrgy's life is entirely the role of genetics. I still don't think this sort of tale is that common these days in sf, and I really can't comment on fantasy since I read so little. Sure it is there in the Star Wars triology and Dune, but even there nurture plays an important role in making the destined hero fit for the role he is meant to live. Now with regard to your comments about family ties and clans (other elements of what I think you mean by "nature") as leading power players in sf stories - sure, that's all over the place. Cyteen, as you mention, is strongly family oriented in its depiction of power structures, as are numerous other works by C.J. Cherryh. I would suggest, however, considering whether these family and kinship oriented political systems are more common in space opera and in sf set in space and dealing with interstellar intrigues and conflict or with issues of the frontier such as colonization and expansion. I tend to read sf set on earth or in the earth system in the near future, and you typically see continuation of current political systems there. If people think this is too vague, I will gladly try to develop this idea and send out my reading list to anyone who wants it. As one last thought, though, if we are considering what is popular and prolific within sf today, then Star Trek's Federation stands out as a poltical system that is really too nebulous to discuss, but it seems to based on merit and not birth. On the other hand the Klingons are clearly clan structured, and they seem to be more popular among fans. > May I suggest that you examine the books cited on > this list in the last few months and do a simple weighted calculation (if > necessary on a random sampling)?... Umm, whatever > ...A different approach would be to consider > the work of the best-selling feminist sf authors - Bujold, McCaffrey, > Tepper, Hambly, Moon, MZB and so on. Perhaps then you will arrive at > the same_statistical_ conclusion that I did otherwise we can re-examine your >points. > Does this mean that you were specifically referring to feminist sf in your original comments? Because that would indeed lead to further confusion. My comments were aimed at sf more generally, which might be forbidden on this list, so I will try to be more careful in the future. I agree, however, that feminist sf does seem to be more interested than sf generally in issues surrounding the family. But if we look at some of the works discussed here (namely the ones I read), I'm not sure nature wins out in political systems as I think you suggested. For instance both Scott's Shadow Man and Dorsey's Black Wine quite effectively criticize hereditary based power structures. I don't remember precisely the details of Gilman's Halfway Human, but I don't think either of the societies described had specific families leading them. And Gammadis, where a third of the population is excluded from all power by virtue of birth, is not portrayed in a particularly positive light. Bujold's Barrayar certainly has a feudal system, but isn't Miles' whole career an attempt to escape the unfairness of that system? These works might be absolutely atypical of feminist sf in general. These examples might also have nothing to do with the point you were trying to make, since the notion of "winning the battle of nature versus nurture" is unclear. What I'm really unclear about is whether you were talking simply about the settings of stories or about how the various political systems were portrayed in the stories. I encourgae Anthea to clarify her points and point out where I might have misrepresented them - it seems like this topic could be an interesting avenue for discussion. I also posted: > > And nowadays so much sf deals with genetic engineering, > > nanotechnology, and speculative neuroscience which can obliterate > > the nature/nurture divide itself. > And Anthea responded: > I'm not sure what the relevance of these comments is... I hope they now make a little more sense (although I should have just said neurobiology for the third one) in light of what I explained above about how I was thinking of the nature vs. nurture debate in terms of human behavior and identity. These are all technologies or sciences that have been used in sf works to alter individual humans and/or the entire human species. Qualities that were thought to be inherent in humanity by virtue of nature become subject to the manipulations of technology. Nurture wins out over nature, and depending on how powerful such technologies might be it could be meaningless to talk about such a divide at all. Some recent works along these lines are: Greg Bear's Queen of Angels and Slant, Nancy Kress's Beggars Trilogy, Paul di Filippo's Ribofunk, Brian Stableford's Inherit the Earth, Richard Calder's "Dead" Trilogy, Alexander Besher's Rim and Mir, Greg Egan's Distress and Diaspora, John Varley's Steel Beach and The Golden Globe, and numerous short stories that I could probably hunt down if anyone wanted. I should think this would also be a topic of particular interest with regard to feminist sf given how these speculations are quite fruitful in exploring the terrain of gender itself. -John Bertland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:08:39 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen discussion begins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/3/98 10:38:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << Would you want to live -- and stay young -- forever? Why or why not? >> Not on this planet! Some days my greatest comfort is the knowledge that no one lives forever! Actually, we are immortal already. Our souls and bodies will be reunited, and we'll exist forever in a much more enjoyable plane of existence. Some of you don't believe that, but I do, so that's why I wouldn't want to stay here, taking up a place someone else could use. To see a chilling portrayal of immortality, read _Gulliver's Travels_--the part about the floating islands. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:15:15 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: Honor Harrington Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/3/98 1:59:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, mbarron@MINT.NET writes: << I enjoy Kate Mulgrew in the role, but I cringe every time I hear someone in the Trek universe address a female officer as "sir" or "mister." You would think there was something inferior about being a "ma'am" or a "ms."! >> I look at it as identifying a superior officer as an officer, not as a female or male officer. I see it in the same light as calling Crusher a doctor rather than a lady doctor. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:01:05 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: OT: 'Balls' ( gendered compliments ) In-Reply-To: <90e88dcf.364367ba@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:18 PM 11/6/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/5/98 5:19:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, >donnaneely@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > ><< Those sailors convinced me it was a > noble "appendage" to possess. >> > > >The only way things change is if we change them. Donna, you have Ovaries! > LOL... my daughter recently joined the Air Force junior cadets, and it was explained to her that during exercises, or when dressed in 'greens' or 'camouflage' dress etc - all officers and NCOs were always to be addressed as "sir" or "mister" regardless of gender, or rank (other than NCO or officer) - as this was akin to 'battle situation' and under such conditions, rapid communication is the most important issue, not the gender of your commanders, or whether or not people are paying attention to social niceties and respectful addresses. However, during formal/informal situations in dress uniform, or on base, etc - then "ma'am", "Ms", or using rank titles were considered more appropriate when speaking with female commanders. As for gendered compliments - a common one I hear used for women is "she's got nipples", "her tits are right way up", "no rust in her bra", "no flies on her boobs/jugs" etc - particularly in country&western rural cultures, eg: at cattle rodeos, and in the stock-car/go-kart racing, and motorbike racing circuits and social-scenes. I know men have nipples too - but its not a part of male bodies that carries connotations. Julieanne jalc@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:30:11 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8 Nov 98, at 17:00, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > It's true, I can't really think of ANY science fiction books that even > mention voting as a political process (except for Heinlein's *Starship > Troopers* which presents a very weird vision of democracy). However, there > are quite a number of SF books that attempt to flesh out political systems > that do not and have not existed in reality. Ursula Le Guin's *The > Dispossessed* is one of the more famous examples. Slonczewski's *A Door > Into Ocean*, Gloss's *The Dazzle of Day* and Piercy's *Woman on the Edge > of Time* all foreground consensus models of decision-making -- an > alternative that seems a lot more workable to female writers than male, I > think. Perhaps it's just that sf/f writers don't have much faith in voting as a way of changing a system {;-)} Just a quick thought: I've just remembered that at the VERY end of Ursula Le Guin's _Four ways to forgiveness_, there's also mention of society becoming a democracy. In my edition, the discussion starts on the 2nd last page and ends in the last paragraph. > And there are a large number of science fiction books that are limited in > scope enough that politics or other forms of world-building don't come > into play. Many seem to briefly sketch out decaying military-industrial > complexes for background -- not surprising given our current reality. :) Following your comment with which I thoroughly agreed, I went through our own bookcases and - allowing for the biased sample - _hard_ sf seems more prone to limited scope than softer sf or especially fantasy. It also seems to me that there was a period of time (early-60s? to end-70s?) when the general scope/scale of sf (but not fantasy) seems to have contracted much more than in earlier or later periods. Considering the very limited numbers of books from that era I've got, I'm sticking my neck out quite a bit but that's definitely my impression. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _______________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:37:35 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Michelle Shirey Crean Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Has anyone heard of a writer called "Michelle Shirey Crean"? I can only find one FICTION book of hers. Called _Dancer of the Sixth_, it was a 1993 Del Rey Discovery. This is not one of the great sf novels, but it's pleasant space opera built around an intriguing premise - exactly the sort of book that's great to read while travelling. I found Dancer, the main character of the book, a particularly interesting one and I'd like to follow her "career". So I'm anxious to find out if Crean wrote only one fiction book or whether she followed up the first (which appears to be the start of a projected series) with any others. I can't find anything on Amazon.com or the Random House/Del Rey website. Crean has co-authored or researched several non-fiction books. I've read one on the B-17 bomber. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) _______________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:21:03 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: e: [*FSFFU*] Nature/Nurture in sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John I think what your posting illustrates well is how easy it is to take one's own reading preferences as the 'norm' - something which I think both of us were guilty of. On 8 Nov 98, at 20:59, John Bertland wrote: > So our comments went completely past each other. You're spot on about the "nature/nurture" debate - I _was_ thinking of power relationships ('a good bloodline is better for rulers than any possible combination of low class genes' - naturally spoken with a high-class snobbish accent). In retrospect, Lady Syzyrgy's daughter with the tattooed bum was a bit of a red herring! > This "born to rule" tale has implications for both of the nature vs > nurture debates that I described above. It falls on the side of > nature in the political system, and it falls on the side of nature > in individual identity in that what seems to be the overriding > feature of Lady Syzyrgy's life is entirely the role of genetics. I > still don't think this sort of tale is that common these days in > sf, and I really can't comment on fantasy since I read so little. Certainly I wasn't excluding the role of "nurture" as a force in making the "chosen one" fit to rule. A common element in "nature" stories is how the position etc requires lengthy training. McCaffrey's "brainship" universe shows this well, perhaps the best example I've read being _Partnership_. > Sure it is there in the Star Wars triology and Dune, but even there > nurture plays an important role in making the destined hero fit for > the role he is meant to live. _Dune_ (specifically the "Bene Gesserit") was actually the trigger for my meandering thought. But the _Star Wars_ trilogy is as good an example. Which goes back to my previous point and adds that there often seems to be some specific skill or Talent (eg McCaffrey's _Crystal singer_ or _The Rowan_ books) which the "chosen one" already has but which needs development by some sort of guru. A really obvious example is "Yoda" in _The Empire strikes back_ but the "guru" idea is quite widespread especially in fantasy. > I would suggest, however, considering whether these family and > kinship oriented political systems are more common in space opera > and in sf set in space and dealing with interstellar intrigues and > conflict or with issues of the frontier such as colonization and > expansion. I tend to read sf set on earth or in the earth system > in the near future, and you typically see continuation of current > political systems there. I think it would have to be - as I've said elsewhere. If one's writing about a struggle for the control of a world / kingdom / industry, clearly political systems _per se_ would be crucial to the plot. But much near future sf must be as you say. It's just suddenly struck me (possibly wrongly) that books written in the 40s-70s tend to postulate much larger near-term political changes than books being written at present. Heinlein's pre-1960 books are good examples. Sorry for the digression! > Does this mean that you were specifically referring to feminist sf in your > original comments? Because that would indeed lead to further confusion. > My comments were aimed at sf more generally, which might be forbidden on > this list, so I will try to be more careful in the future. No not really! Subject to caveats about my own reading tastes and about the (relatively) high proportion of feminist sf in my fiction reading these days, I'd be inclined to suggest that my comments would apply particularly to feminist sf/f but it wasn't my intention to restrict them to that. As you may have gathered, I often debate the same topic simultaneously on several lists, so I have to keep reminding myself which list I'm writing for. > But if we look at some of the works discussed here (namely the > ones I read), I'm not sure nature wins out in political systems as > I think you suggested. For instance both Scott's Shadow Man and > Dorsey's Black Wine quite effectively criticize hereditary based > power structures. Both the books you mention (I haven't managed to get into _Halfway human_) are dystopias in which the power structures are held responsible for the problems. The key point I would have thought is what structures were intended to *replace* the flawed ones. > Bujold's Barrayar certainly has a feudal system, but isn't Miles' > whole career an attempt to escape the unfairness of that system? I don't know that Miles was attempting to escape the "unfairness", I think in view of his entry into the power system, that he was simply trying to overcome the obstacles that his own physical condition imposed. Since the "Rambo" role in the military was obviously out for him, he had to use the "stealth" to take his rightful place in society. You'll have notice how his physical condition is improved by technology at every stage of his career (there's a listing at the back of _The Vor Game_ that shows this. And I think this is typical of the sort of works I was thinking of. The disadvantaged heroine is either trying to take her ('bloodline' determined) rightful place in society or to change the system so that she's among the top dogs as her 'bloodline' entitles her to be. > What I'm really unclear about is whether you were talking simply > about the settings of stories or about how the various political > systems were portrayed in the stories. The overlap between the two is so great that it's difficult to separate them. The story is set in a particular "political system(s)" setting and - unless the scope of the story is small - the major contraints on the individual are very often imposed by the "polititcal system(s)". > Qualities that were thought to be inherent in humanity by virtue of > nature become subject to the manipulations of technology. Nurture > wins out over nature, and depending on how powerful such > technologies might be it could be meaningless to talk about such a > divide at all. That's true of course. But I think one can sometimes discern a trend to give the heroine qualities that cannot be machine duplicated. I'm thinking say of telepathy or other esp qualities for example. Theoretically for example, if a human generating a few milliwatts of power can paralyse a room full of people, an "artificial telepath" connected to a billion Gigawatt fusion generator should be able to paralyse half the Galaxy (;-}) There sometimes seems to be almost a convention that some powers are reserved for living beings. Having said that, I can think of counter-examples! AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ___________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:14:35 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Willshaw Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:00:17 -0500 >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >From: "Janice E. Dawley" >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Democracies in sf/f >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >At 05:29 AM 11/7/98 MET, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >>I have been very hard put to think of >>more than a very few books in which the "revolution" or whatever resulted or >>was planned to end in a democratic government. The best that seems to happen >>is that a "mad tyrant" is replaced by a benevolent despot, or an aristocratic >>/ mercantile oligarchy. > >It's true, I can't really think of ANY science fiction books that even >mention voting as a political process (except for Heinlein's *Starship >Troopers* which presents a very weird vision of democracy). Kim Stanley Robinsons' three "Mars" books contain examples of voting and elections. In fact a lot of the time these books are mainly about democracy and rights for everyone and how a political system can be made to work on behalf of everyone. It is interesting that these books are as often termed "future history" as they are SF. I love the way that they explore the birth of a new nation/race and the way that people originally from earth gradually become "martian" in outlook. KSR also explores how different political/societal systems can be made to work - for example, matriachies and co-operatives, and how these different systems could co-exist. As someone who is very interested in the way that societies work, and the prevention of injustices, these books definately hit the spot with me. His treatment of different sexes is pretty amazing too. People are individuals first and men and women second. The only sexism that takes place is in the context of history rather than in the context of the story. Worth a look at for people wanting to read about democracy in space Kate ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:24:59 -0500 Reply-To: feldsipe@erols.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: suzanne feldman Organization: or lack thereof Subject: [Fwd: SFWA Online Update No. 28: Call to Arms] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------55A538C7433F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------55A538C7433F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Attached is a critically important note I just received from the Science Fiction Writers of America. Barnes and Noble is buying Ingram, the nation's largest book distributer, WHICH MAY HAVE THE EFFECT OF LIMITING WHAT YOU BUY TO WHAT B&N WANTS TO SELL. You can help stop this 'merger of the giants.' Janet Reno's address is at the bottom, along with Robert Pitofsky's, Chairman of the Federal Trade Commission. Be an activist reader! Write a letter or call! Suze Feldman/Severna Park --------------55A538C7433F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mx05.erols.com ([207.172.3.245]) by mta1.erols.com (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with ESMTP id <19981108223401.GLOT25125@mx05.erols.com>; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:34:01 -0500 Received: from plano.sff.net (plano.greyware.com [207.55.146.51]) by mx05.erols.com (8.8.8-970530/8.8.5/MX-980323-gjp) with SMTP id RAA10842; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:33:58 -0500 (EST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (unverified [204.127.131.37]) by plano.sff.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 08 Nov 1998 16:31:40 -0600 Received: from ast9306 ([12.76.70.180]) by mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.03 118 118 102) with SMTP id <19981108223135.IAGF10634@ast9306> for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:31:35 +0000 From: "Michael P. Kube-McDowell" Organization: Member SFWA To: sfwa-misc@sff.net Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:32:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: SFWA Online Update No. 28: Call to Arms Reply-to: K-Mac@worldnet.att.net Priority: normal Message-Id: <19981108223135.IAGF10634@ast9306> Sender: sfwa-misc-request@plano.sff.net Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: sfwa-misc@plano.sff.net X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to >>> SFWA ONLINE UPDATE <<<<<<<<<<< No. 28<<<<<11/08/98<<<<<<<<<< >>> An electronic publication of <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>> Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Man the Barricades: > Barnes & Noble's Purchase of Ingram Seen As Danger Friday's announcement that bookselling giant Barnes & Noble is acquiring book distribution giant Ingram for $600 million in cash and stock has set off alarm bells across the publishing and bookselling world. The purchase would put Barnes & Noble in control of the primary distributor for its chief online bookselling rival, amazon.com, and for most small chains and independent bookstores throughout the country. "So it's true," Publishers Weekly reported in its online newsletter. "The days of speculation end with the shocking announcement that B&N will buy Ingram for a cool $600 mil. "The purchase, which will consist of $200 million in cash and $400 million in B&N stock, will make the entire Ingram Book Group, which consists of Ingram Book Company, Retailer Services Inc., Ingram Periodicals, Spring Arbor Distributors, Publishers Resources, Inc. Ingram International, Tennessee Book Company, Lightning Print and Ingram Library Services, a wholly-owned subsidiary of B&N. The deal is expected to be completed within 45 days, pending approval by government agencies. Steve Riggio, vice-chairman of B&N, said he did not expect any anti-trust problems with the transaction." The American Booksellers Association has issued the following official statement (available on the ABA BookWeb site at http://www.bookweb.org): "The American Booksellers Association (ABA) considers the purchase of Ingram Book Company by Barnes and Noble, Inc., to be a devastating development that threatens the viability of competition in the book industry, and limits the diversity and availability of books to consumers. The Board of Directors of the ABA call on the Antitrust Division of the U.S. Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the proposed acquisition and to take prompt and decisive action to stop this blatantly anti-competitive combination. "This acquisition, should it be allowed to take place, is just one more example of the large scale corporate consolidation that has infiltrated every corner of our culture. As the desire intensifies to increase bottom line profits no matter what the other consequences, so does the concentration of power in the book industry. Consumers are left with an environment in which fewer and fewer people are deciding which books get published, and ultimately, which books Americans can read and buy. "Barnes & Noble, a $3 billion company and the largest US book retailer, recently entered into an alliance with the $14 billion media giant, German-owned Bertelsmann AG. Ingram Book Company is the largest book wholesaler in the United States, with over a billion dollars in sales to independent bookstores and other competitors of Barnes & Noble. Now, with Barnes & Noble's proposed acquisition of the billion dollar Ingram Book Company, there can be little doubt that the book industry is falling prey to the same anti-competitive ills that currently plague the computer software and other industries. This deal would make independent bookstores virtually dependent upon their largest competitor, one which the ABA alleges in pending antitrust discrimination litigation in San Francisco has had a long-standing, systematic strategy of driving independents out of business to stifle competition. "While there are some smaller, unaffiliated book wholesalers that provide independent booksellers with excellent service, Ingram Book Company is a primary distribution source for the vast majority of ABA member stores, and we consider this development to be deeply troubling. We will use all of our strength and available resources to fight it." ABA President Richard Howorth has asked member bookstores to write to Attorney General of the United States Janet Reno and Federal Trade Commission Chairman Robert Pitofsky to protest the acquisition, and the ABA is providing a model letter (echoing the positions in the statement above) on its BookWeb site: http://www.bookweb.org/news/pressroom/1477.html SFWA Vice President Paul Levinson called the purchase of Ingram "bad news, indeed" and announced that SFWA will be supporting the ABA campaign with a letter signed by the Board of Directors and, insofar as possible, the past presidents of SFWA. The Board will also be contacting the Authors Guild as part of its review of other options. Liaison Committee Chairman Steve Carper will explore the possibility of coordinating our efforts with HWA, MWA, RWA, and other genre writers organizations. Levinson and SFWA founder Damon Knight are calling on individual SFWA members to add their voices by writing their own letters of protest. Key addresses (formatted for cut-and-paste) are: Attorney General Janet Reno Department of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20530 Robert Pitofsky Chairman Federal Trade Commission Pennsylvania Avenue & 6th Street, NW Washington, DC 20580 The ABA is requesting courtesy copies of all letters to Reno or Pitofsky; their fax number is 1-914-591-2720, and mailing address is: American Booksellers Association 828 South Broadway Tarrytown, NY 10591 More news and background information on the Barnes & Noble purchase of Ingram can be found in the following reports : >USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/money/mds012.htm >CNNfn: http://cnnfn.com/hotstories/deals/9811/06/books/ >New York Times: http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/homepage/bin/fastweb?search [search ALL for INGRAM, select "Barnes & Noble to Acquire Nation's Top Wholesaler" from hit list] In addition to BookWeb, a prospective source for ongoing developments is the Publishers Weekly web site at: http://www.bookwire.com/pw/pw.html "This is the real writer's enemy right now," said former SFWA president Jane Yolen, adding that midlist careers were at risk along with editorial diversity and the health of independent bookstores. "If it goes through, it may be the final nail in a number of coffins." []----NOTICES------------------------------------------------------[] Online Update is a private publication of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. Permission to reprint, repost, or quote is expressly denied. If you know someone who is a member but is not receiving the Update, invite them to e-mail the Moderator and Executive Director so the circumstances can be investigated. > Send all address corrections to Sharon Lee, Executive Director. []----CONTACTS-----------------------------------------------------[] Richard Howorth, ABA President: richard@squarebooks.com Paul Levinson, SFWA Vice President: 72517.3107@compuserve.com Sharon Lee, SFWA Executive Director: execdir@sfwa.org Mike Kube-McDowell, Online Update Moderator: K-Mac@worldnet.att.net []-----------------------------------------END TRANSMISSION-----[] --------------55A538C7433F-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:59:43 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Sheri S. Tepper's work Comments: To: erannon@HOTMAIL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Caroline: you mentioned wanting to discuss Tepper's work--I'll be more than thrilled to do so, either on or off list (I'm sending this post both to you personally and to the list). I have been reading her work for years--ever since the first books appeared (cannot remember if it was the "Marianne" trilogy or the Peter trilogy), and I also buy all her mysteries (published under the pseudonums of A.J. Orde and B.J. Oliphant). I think the "trilogy" _Grass_, _Raising the Stones_, and _Sideshow_ is possibly her very best work, although I was a bit disappointed with the _Gibbon_ and _Family Tree_ novels, I think _Six Moons_ is right back on track. I don't know anything about her personally, other than some of the bare biographical facts (she worked for Planned Parenthood, began publishing only later in life, recently attended WISCON for the first time, is definitely a Writer with a Mission). I agree some of her work appeals less to me than others (the _Northshore/Southshore_ novels, _Beauty_, the two mentioned above, especially seem flat to me), but when she is good, she is really really good. I'm working on a paper on her for the International Conference for the Fantastic in the Arts--it's looking at what I call "Momutes" or momentary utopias in her trilogies ("Marianne," "Mavin" and "Grass/Stones/Sideshow"--the last isn't a traditionally structured trilogy, but all three novels are in the same universe, and there's a metanarrative concerning the Arbai and their communications device). Glad to talk about any of the works you want! Robin I subscribed to this list cause I really want to have a discussion of Sheri S. Tepper's work, but there seem to be no websites, and no-one I know personally has read her stuff. I find her work a mixed bag - when she writes well, it's brilliant - but some of her works just fall flat, grating the same ideas over and over. Does anyone know anything about her personally? And would anyone else agree with me that Sideshow is one of the best books ever written? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:06:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sutliff Sanders Subject: Re: IAFA conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Robin just posted something reminding me of the IAFA conference in March. Is anybody else on the list going? I think Donna Simone said she was (right, donna?), but what about the rest of us? Maybe we should get our own suite. . .then again, considering the tempers on this listserv, maybe that's a bad idea. . . .(heh heh). Joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:02:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: class issues in fantasy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For a wildly upside down view of "orcs," I'd suggest Mary Gentle's novel _Grunts_ (have to check title! ) which puts forth a sympathetic view of the orcs and a portrayal of hobbits as nasty little perverted thieves and elves as vicious elitists. Warning--graphic sex and violence. For a wonderfullly satiric deconstruction of class issues in fantasy, I can highly recommend Terry Pratchett's novels about the city guard of Ankh-Morpork (_Men at Arms_, _Guards, Guards_, and a few others whose titles I cannot recall early on Monday mornig!) Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:59:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" Comments: To: shander@cdsnet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Anderson wrote: > Thank goodness, Kathleen, there is someone else more than 30 years old on > this list! The first sf books I can remember reading were Cameron's Mushroom > Planet books. Omigod! You mean I wasn't the only one??? I was going to mention these books, but ... I don't know ... I just haven't been getting the feeling that I am as sophisticated yet about this stuff as the rest of you ... and maybe you all would laugh ... isn't that silly??? But I loved the "Mushroom Plantet" books, read them all! And Zip Zip? Did anyone every read "Zip Zip Goes to Venus"? Oh, how I got lost in those books! ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:02:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Subject: Re: children's books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phoebe Wray wrote: > I was brought up in a town in Western Pennsylvania, pop 1000. We didn't have > a library. The consolidated school, grades 1-12 didn't have a library. But I > read from grade one on anything i could get my hands on. My parents bought me > books, I bought books with my allowance money. > > Interesting, I mostly read non-fiction until the 5th grade, except for the > texts in school that did have some fiction I vaguely recall. Then, an > innovative teacher (still my friend!) turned a part of what was called the > "cloak closet" into a library and brought books into the classroom. And I > read everything she brought in, mostly fiction. > > There's a joke in my family about Christmas. I always asked for teddy bears > and books as presents. One year my grandmother gave me "Forever Amber" -- > which is a sizzling sexy romance -- because she thought it was about a horse. > I never told her, and my non-reading parents didn't catch on for quite a > while. > > Didn't get to sci fi/fantasy until high school in California. Got there via > Ayn Rand. A weird connection, but nonetheless... > > But I was never told that I couldn't read something. I read everything -- > from milk cartons to Descartes.... > > I think now that I simply didn't process things I didn't understand. I never > was able to talk to anyone about my reading. I do remember my busy mother > used to find time to read to me and my friend Dicky Peterson. Mostly animal > stories. > > Not the least bit strange that I've done a lot of nf writing, especially on > environmental issues. > > lightly, > phoebe -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:05:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Subject: Re: children's books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phoebe Wray wrote: > > There's a joke in my family about Christmas. I always asked for teddy bears > and books as presents. One year my grandmother gave me "Forever Amber" -- > which is a sizzling sexy romance -- because she thought it was about a horse. > I never told her, and my non-reading parents didn't catch on for quite a > while. > > Oh my, I was asked on my writer's list once what my first or favorite banned book was, and this was it! Read it when I was 15, and at least twice more after that! Then I bought the movie, just recently in fact. What a disappointment! They even changed the ending to make sure it appeared that Amber suffered for her lifestyle ... a lifestyle over which she had very little choices if she was going to move beyond the pedantic peasantry she was born into and hated so much. It was definitely not the message of the book, I don't think, and they left a great deal out of it. I would love to make the movie again, with a 90's take on it! The character was a strong, vivid, lively, adventress, and I thought she was incredibly dynamic! ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:09:32 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Willis's address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" One of my fellow workers at the Mondadori is translating Bellweather by Connie Willis. He'd like to ask her something about the translation and is looking for an address, if possible an e-mail address. If anybody can supply it, contact me privately and I swear I'l forward it and will not abuse the privilege. :-) Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:21:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: OT: it's fluff, but... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wonderful World of Disney did a remake of A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT with Whoopi Goldberg as Sir Boss. It went over rather well, and Goldberg as the physicist-time traveler was very believable. But can you imagine her in the role any time before, say, 1980? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:51:37 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Childhood Reading, Adult SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not only did I read the Grey King Series, I can still recite the verse that links the stories together. ("Iron for the birthday, bronze carried long"...etc) Moreover, I can recite yards of poetry from Tolkien and the vast majority of the chant from Madeline L'Engle's Swiftly Tilting Planet. Also, did anyone ever read a book called The Girl Who Owned A City? I read it when I was little and found a copy recently in a thrift store, only now realizing that it is set within two miles of where I grew up. It's this bizarre libertarian propaganda fable, but it is sf and it has a girl hero. >>> "Candioglos, Sandy" 11/06 11:43 AM >>> John Christopher!! I remember those stories! I read everything I could find of his on the library shelf. I saw the tripod series recently at Powell's; I had almost completely forgotten their existence until then. Did anybody else read "the grey king" series by Susan Cooper? I loved that series; I've always thought Wales was fascinating. -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Jane Franklin [mailto:JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU] Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 9:01 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Childhood Reading, Adult SF Has anyone read a book called "The Silver Link, the Silken Tie"? Or "Anna to the Infinite Power"? Children's sf I just now remembered. How about those "Pool of Fire" books? I also read a lot of Wells at a very young age. We had a giant book of all his short stories. Some of them made me feel quite ill. Also, the one about the people-eating octopi--I still try not to think about that when I'm swimming. I really feel like I could absorb upsetting literature much better when I chose to read it, even without explanations. I guess if it didn't bore me then I was ready for it on some level. I must have been seven or so when I was reading Wells, since I remember reading him on the way to piano lessons. I never had any trouble with early 20th century and 19th century writing styles either, and for this reason was a mystery and trouble to my classmates. Although I still have serious trouble with Henry James's prose. I really like him, but he is one of the few authors I read slowly slowly slowly. >>> No Name Available 11/06 9:34 AM >>> >From the looks of the previous posts, I may be writing from another generation. The first "adult" SF I read must have been Wells and Verne; at least I was reading both of them by 4th grade (blame/thank my mother). She had some well- meant but fuzzy ideas about a child's reading ability. When I was in second grade, she took away my small books and started handing me unabridged novels--- Kidnapped, Treasure Island, Robinson Crusoe, Little Women, Toby Tyler (!), Howard Pyle's Robin Hood, Huck Finn, Kim--- one a month for years. I was an early reader, and eager to chew my way through almost anything, but it was strange going. She also had an old high-school lit book, from the 1930s. It had a section from Ivanhoe and Conan Doyle's White Company, as well as a little translated Verne. I was hooked on 19th c. language and storytelling, by then; even so, I liked Wells more than Verne. I loved first- person narratives, the feeling of being taken along on a ride. And I remember setting my brother and two neighbor sisters up on collapsed lawn chairs as our time machines, taking trips under the pear trees in the back yard. Before that, I remember Eleanor Cameron's Mushroom Planet books, and shortly afterward, Heinlein's kid books and Ray Bradbury. I did try Andre Norton, but didn't like her. I also got my hands on some William Tenn and Eric Frank Russell. And, finally, Naomi Mitchison's Memoirs of a Spacewoman, right before L'Engle's Wrinkle in Time was first published. By Jr High, I was reading any adult SF I came across, fairly indiscriminately, as I recall. I can't tell what adult fantasy I read first-- I've been trying to remember, but I read so much, especially if it had anything to do with time-fantasy, or anything vaguely related to Arthurian legend, mythology, folktales--- many of which were not "children's" books, and many of which must have had fantasy elements. And then again, in the late 50s and early 60s, "fantasy" wasn't a marketing category for adults the way it is now. I remember reading T.H. White's Arthurian books at about the same time I hit Tolkien, when I was about 15 (when Ballantine first put them out in paperback); my tattered old copies of Eddison and Howard are from around then, too; that's about the best I can do. I still have those cheap battered childhood novels, and I read them again every once in a while. Some of the earliest, that I loved, I can still slip into with the same drugged wonder I had the first time around, although there are a few new jolts. Rereading Cameron, as an adult, was a joy; L'Engle still absorbing; Bradbury very nostalgic, but a little sentimental; Heinlein, less fun. William Mayne is as haunting and wonderful as ever, maybe even more so now. William Tenn's stories still have that terrific feel to them, but their profound sexism makes them as hard to enjoy now as Disney's reissued "classics." I must have shrugged a lot of that off, as a younger reader, or consigned his ditsy women and horny men to bimbo-limbo. I will say that that old absorbing thrill, being lost in a good read of a new book, is very hard to find these days. Kathleen M. Friello (new list address) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981108170017.00725884@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII At 05:29 AM 11/7/98 MET, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > I have been very hard put to think of > more than a very few books in which the "revolution" or whatever resulted or > was planned to end in a democratic government. The best that seems to happen > is that a "mad tyrant" is replaced by a benevolent despot, or an aristocratic > / mercantile oligarchy. They do seem to be rare. Someone in another posting mentioned Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy as an example. Another recent one is Walter Jon William's Metropolitan and City on Fire (and I think there is a third book coming), which describe a revolution with proclaimed democratic goals even though they haven't quite gotten there by the end of the third book. Michael Moorcock's The War Amongst the Angels is not about revolution but about power struggles in which democracy is seen as a noble goal. And that's what pops to mind. I think (to generalize boldly) sf writers naturally tend to see science as the engine of social change rather than politics, and that they prefer to write cautionary tales of future dystopias perhaps for the dramatic potential. Watching people write a constitution does not really make for gripping drama - although Robinson tried in Blue Mars and I thought it was interesting stuff. I am surprised that there isn't more sf that looks at the effects of new tech on the democratic process, in particular information technology (although I think Bruce Sterling has a book coming out along these lines). -John Bertland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:03:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The only consoling thing about Tolkien and Russia is that I think the dwarves' language is drawn somewhat from Russian, and the dwarves are okay. They're my next favorite after the hobbits, actually. Speaking (OT) of Russia and prejudice and silly stuff like that, has anyone seen that movie Happiness, by the guy who did Welcome to the Dollhouse? Kind of disappointing, and it has two really stereotyped Russian immigrants in it. On reflection, I'm not sure how flattering it is to have the dwarf language drawn from one's own. However, at least it's not the elves. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:06:02 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: IAFA conference In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981109090644.0093a600@pop.uky.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Joe Sutliff Sanders wrote: > Robin just posted something reminding me of the IAFA conference in > March. Is anybody else on the list going? Farah Mendlesohn and I are going (Assistant Editor and Editor of FOUNDATION respectively, nd we are both giving papers. So that's one member and one ex-member to add to the list! Edward ............................................................................. Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK Director, Graduate Centre for Medieval Studies Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm .............................................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:16:14 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I reall >>> Anthea Hartley Stanton 11/06 6:31 PM >>> The suggestion that Tolkien's remarks about dwarves, orcs, trolls and so on were racist is beyond belief. These were not only non- human, but they were Tolkien's adaptions of beings which had existed in European folklore for many hundreds of years. The comments he makes about their language reflects his view of them as non-human, not that he modelled them after "orientals". I think part of the problem here is that we're working with several different meanings for racist, three of which seem to me to be: 1. Intentionally putting down people from another race; consciously choosing to portray them as inferior in order to advance an ideological agenda. 2. Believing that people from other races are different--essentially, genetically, permanently--and having this attitude in one's writing. 3. Drawing from one's beliefs about other races to inform what one writes in an sf/fantasy context, and having those beliefs be some of #1 or #2. No offence, but Tolkien does seem to be drawing from beliefs about essential racial differences to characterize his dwarves, elves and so on. It's also interesting to note that some of Sauron's creatures are products of miscegenation. And I think part of the allegations about racism come from Tolkien's descriptions of the humans from the South and East who serve Sauron. They're pretty obviously Africans and Asians (insofar as LOTR has them) and they are stereotyped in pretty bad ways. It's not a signifigant part of the book, but it's there. The thing about Tolkien is that if you choose you can read it as a useful allegory. After all, chivalry. prouesse and all the knightly virtues aren't so bad if you assume that one should be chivalrous to everyone and so forth. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:45:05 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janice Bogstad Subject: Re: IAFA conference In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I am also going and giving a paper - IAFA is a good group and I am sorry to have missed conferences in recent years ... I also attended the Utopian Studies conference in Montreal in October and it was really great - papers spanned the topic of utopian studies from the social to the literary and so were very instructive - I went to a session on ecology and heard some interesting stuff about zoo theory and about regional ecologies...Jan Bogstad, bogstajm@uwec.edu At 03:06 PM 11/9/98 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Joe Sutliff Sanders wrote: > >> Robin just posted something reminding me of the IAFA conference in March. >> Is anybody else on the list going? > >Farah Mendlesohn and I are going (Assistant Editor and Editor of >FOUNDATION respectively, nd we are both giving papers. So that's one >member and one ex-member to add to the list! > >Edward > >............................................................................. > >Professor Edward James, Dept of History, Faculty of Letters and Social >Sciences, University of Reading, Whiteknights, READING RG6 6AA, UK > >Director, Graduate Centre for Medieval Studies > >Editor, FOUNDATION: THE INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION >Director of Studies, MA in Science Fiction: Histories, Texts, Media > >http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~lhsjamse/home.htm > >........................................................................... ... > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:12:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" In-Reply-To: <3646F55C.F644845D@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Sharon Anderson wrote: > > > Thank goodness, Kathleen, there is someone else more than 30 years old on > > this list! The first sf books I can remember reading were Cameron's > > Mushroom Planet books. > > Omigod! You mean I wasn't the only one??? I was going to mention these > books, but ... I don't know ... I just haven't been getting the > feeling that I am as sophisticated yet about this stuff as the rest > of you ... and maybe you all would laugh ... isn't that silly??? > But I loved the "Mushroom Plantet" books, read them all! And Zip > Zip? Did anyone every read "Zip Zip Goes to Venus"? Oh, how I got > lost in those books! > > ...geminiwalker > chuard@earthlink.net > We're not all kids here. I remember the Mushroom Planet books too. I didn't know there was a Zip Zip Goes to Venus, must have missed it, but I did read Zip Zip Goes to Mars. How about Time Cat? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:45:01 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would just like to make a distinction, while we're talking about the USSR and Tolkien, between the USSR and ethnic Russians, and in turn between the government of the USSR and its peoples. And while I'm at it between the government of the USSR and many other Marxists and democratic socialists. Yes, the government of the USSR screwed up Estonia and Latvia and so on. But then Russia ain't doing so hot either. And while we're on the topic, I hope everyone remembers that hope has been pretty soundly mashed down in US-dominated places like the maquiladora zones about as well as it has in Estonia. While no Marxist myself, I don't want to get into that post-Soviet fashion of having a kind of elegiac regret for the evils of the "other", the USSR. And I know this is more OT than anything, and I sense an OT crisis arising, so I will add that I would looooove to discuss this topic at length privately. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:53:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: my first sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been enjoying all these nostalgic postings about our first experiences with the genre. The first time I remember hearing about this thing called "science fiction" was from a high-school English teacher who had us read Bradbury's Illustrated Man, plus I think he also included Earth Abides. After that, I was hooked and proceeded to go through the library's SF section until I'd read most of the (male) authors. And yes, all my books came from the library; I don't remember us owning anything but the encyclopedia. However, I also remember devouring the Prydain books (did that include the Black Cauldron?), and Wrinkle in Time when I was much younger. It was a long time before I connected those books with "science fiction" or "fantasy". Nobody's mentioned Alice in Wonderland, so far. Oh, and I remember being fascinated with stories like the Borrowers, with miniature people. I really don't remember being as aware of the lack of female characters as others on this list; I just identified with them regardless of gender. For example I always wanted to be Captain Kirk (or was that just because he always got the girl...) Though I do remember being frustrated with the third Earthsea book, that the girl was so unaware of her power. I really do wonder what a difference it would have made to have had Xena as a young girl. I agree that she's a role model, embarrassing as it is that we lack others like her. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:50:15 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I love Tepper's books, though so many of them suffer from poor endings. Grass is one of the scariest books I've read; the horror of the grim "hunt" still makes me cringe. And the bad guys in Raising the Stones, and again in Gibbons Decline and Fall, were scary too even though they were so one-dimensional. I loved Raising the Stones even more than Sideshow, though; the mystery of that stuff and the effect it had on people was so intriguing. I don't want to spoil anything if you haven't read them yet -- please do read them. Tepper has some really interesting ideas that appear in her books, sometimes incidentally. I was quite taken with the species in After Long Silence that is always comparing different viewpoints and must have all of them to have the truth, complex but complete. Would that we could get the Internet to work like that! Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:44:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: from "Jane Franklin" at Nov 9, 98 10:45:01 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jane, Sic scribit Jane Franklin: > I would just like to make a distinction, while we're talking about the > USSR and Tolkien, between the USSR and ethnic Russians, and in turn > between the government of the USSR and its peoples. And while I'm at it > between the government of the USSR and many other Marxists and > democratic socialists. As a literary critic and teacher who routinely uses Marxian theory in my work, I thank you. :) Let's get back to Tolkien, though: this thread is the first I can recall where I've seen the claim seriously advanced that Mordor is in some sense an allegory of the USSR. Hitler's Nazi Germany is the usual suspect in such allegorical readings. In either case, though, I'm not terribly convinced. Tolkien was a medievalist with a very specific understanding of allegory as a mode and genre, and he rather adamantly states in his forward to the revised US edition of the trilogy that allegory has no place in his text, going to far as to postulate how different the plot would have been if the War of the Ring had been nothing more than a fiction for talking about WWII and the various combatants therein. He is perfectly willing to admit that his experiences as a soldier in the Great War have influenced the novel and that "application" is still a valid hermeneutic for LotR (he wants his fantasy to have a political effect), but that's it. I have to say that I believe him here; as a hermeneutic, allegory distorts and deforms most texts it is applied to, and no "Sauron is Stalin" reading I have ever seen is convincing. Now it is indeed possible that Tolkien's observations of totalitarian societies in the 1930s, 1940s, and early 1950s may have shaped his portrayal of the Mordor and Isengard societies, but I believe such an effect only takes place along general lines. As for racism and Tolkien, it's certainly there--but in the more structural and cultural sense that several posters have offered up as a definition. My own study of Tolkien suggests to me that he was not what anyone would call a racist in the sense of Southern segregationists, France's Le Pen, or neo-Nazi skinheads. We know that when the Nazis approached Tolkien in the late 1930s about a German translation of *The Hobbit* and appealed to him on the grounds of a shared Aryan ancestry, Tolkien's response was to reject such an appeal by slyly and pointedly noting the possible Jewish origins of his name. At the same time, Tolkien grew up and lived in a racist, imperialist/colonizing culture (he was born in Africa), so it's not surprising that LotR bears the marks of that context: the easy use of black as a synonym for evil and white for good, the stereotyped Easterling and Southron cultures, the slant-eyed half-orcs in Bree and the Scouring of the Shire, etc. These aspects of the text need to be discussed and pointed out to students, but I don't think they should be used as a club to beat on Tolkien. His own position on issues of race and ethnicity was more complicated than simple hatred or denigration, and our analysis should respect that complexity. The racialist thinking I see in the LotR is not really very different from the implicit racism I've seen displayed in my own department when colleagues who do work on Native American culture start going to a suburban grocery store b/c the local supermarkets are too dangerous (i.e., filled with black faces)--those colleagues would be embarassed if the contradiction in their explicit beliefs and implicit anxieties was pointed out to them, but the contradiction is there. I'd say that most of us find ourselves dealing with it at some point in our lives. Ob feminism and Tolkien: I've just reread the trilogy after teaching a course on feminist SF (so I'm tuned into to feminist issues lately), and I would have to say that I agree that Eowyn and Frodo trouble the traditional patriarchal boundaries Tolkien sets up early on in his text. They disrupt those categories, even if ultimately they don't overturn them. As is the case above with racism, I feel that a more nuanced feminist reading of LotR is in order. After all, while the presence of so many passive, inspirational women is troubling to me, I have to say that I find the active, adventuring women in work like Robert Jordan's to be not much better (in fact, I'd say that Jordan's work is far more patriarchal than Tolkien's: Rand and Egwene are just different, emotionally and mentally, and they stick to their gender identities--at least in the first two novels, both of which are set in a world explicitly divided along lines of gender). Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * "Christmas is carnage!" Ferdinand the Duck Who Thinks He's a Rooster, *Babe* (1995) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:57:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: IAFA conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe we should get our own suite. . .then again, considering the tempers on this listserv, maybe that's a bad idea. . . .(heh heh). _I_ like the people on this list, for the most part... I LIKE people who argue with me. I like people even more if they argue well. That is, inasmuch as you can like people you have never really met. I mean, just because I use nasty invective and am bitter and cranky doesn't mean I don't LIKE you... :) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:56:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: reading autobiography Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been fascinated by the reading histories presented by people in regard to the question of what they read as children--some fascinating results tied to age (especially given the fact that librarians used to control access but they no longer do so), gender, and such. I'm 43, was raised in Moscow, Idaho (town of about 13,000, but it had the state's land grant university). No bookstore existed in the town before the seventies except the college one, so I remember the thrill of going to Real Bookstores in Spokane, Washington when we were up for dentist, doctor, shopping trips, etc. (*in fact, my reward was usually a book.) I still get totally Turned On by good bookstore and libraries. Sensual extravaganzas. I started to "read" when I was three. Was blessed with grandparents and parents who read aloud to me a great deal, but apparently I was starting to recognize words in stories I'd memorized early on, and reading at an early age. I got in trouble in first grade because phonics was all the rage then, and I was told I was reading WRONG (word recognition). So I stopped reading. Besides, Dick & Jane bored me to tears. Turned out I was reading at a 4th grade level, but this fact really bugged my teachers. My mother hated the fifties and early sixties for the insistence on conformity--luckily, my father was a university professor able to intimidate the (female) principal and teachers--and he kept reading to me when I'd refuse. (Well, hey, when you're told you are doing something WRONG, you're supposed to stop, right?). Then my best friend Cody introduced me to the OZ books by L. Frank Baum and Ruth Plumley Thompson (we didn't distinguish between the two authors when we were six--our town's children's librarian put them all together--they were big fat books bound in green cloth with gold lettering--ummmmm, I can still "feel" and smell them. Yum. Cody and I used to check out books when we stayed overnight and lie on a big double bed and read together. So I had to start reading. (Interestingly enough Baum created girl protagonists, and Thompson boys.) Like a lot of people my generation and older seem to say, I sort of didn't notice the gender problems (lack of female characters, or extremely stereotyped female characters) until puberty hit. But let's not get onto that now. (I remember loving Andre Norton for years because her protagonists, male or female, all experienced alienation and had to search for acceptance--and often hung out with sentient felinoids.) Good books when I was a kid: The Cameron Mushroom Planet series. A series about a kitten who kept stowing away on space ships (I cannot remember the author but I LOVED the stories) and going into space and visiting ohter planets. Eleanor Cameron's OTHER books. Jane Langton's books (especially the "Shy Steogosaurus" ones). Oz of course forever and ever--and multiple times. But also my father's ANALOGS. Horse books, or anything with animals. The Heinlein and Asimov juveniles. Tolkien in junior high. The librarian said since I liked Oz, I'd like _The Hobbit_ but I actually hated it (picked up on what JRRT himself was a patronizing tone in it), but loved LOTR when I hit it at 13 or so. There was this on-going search for stories with women protagonists, and I loved the "romances" (before they became so commercialized) created by Mary Stewart, Phyllis Whitney, Victoria Holt, and Georgette Heyer. I was probably an irritating little kid, and kept getting into trouble for reading outside the Socially Arranged Categories. Cody and I'd read everything in the "children's and young adult" library by sixth grade or so, and our parents had to petition for special permission to allow us to go upstairs to the "adult" section. I found great stuff there, but also scary ones (some of the sex and violence in the historical novels spooked me) although a lot of it went over my head. I leaped into science fiction and historical novels. My mother and father always encouraged us to read, and we had books all over the house. I remember the "five foot shelf of books," and reading Shakespeare at an early age as well. I wrote too. My parents didn't believe in censoring any of my brother's or my reading: I remember getting ahold of _Lady Chatterley's Lover_ at a fairly young age, and being so bored with it, I never got past the first chapter or two. _Forever Amber_ was great though! Just remembered: loved the English kids' series. Lewis, until I figured out his Allegorial Message, and E. Nesbit, and George MacDonald (_Back of the North Wind_ though it scared me a lot at times). I also, because of my name, became an early fan of all Robin Hood stories, and thus British history novels in any form. I read lots, but I got into trouble lots. The city librarians wouldn't let me particiate in any of the summer reading contests because I read too fast and too much. I still remember how great it was when they went from only letting us check out six books to letting us check out as many as we wanted. The summer contest came to a head one summer when a commitee was established to "prove" I hadn't really read all the books I'd read--I promptly recited lengthy and detailed plot summaries of every one they asked me about, hee hee hee! (I was born to be an English teacher.) But then they made that rule exluding me. (Can't participate in a contest because she's too good--ah, the American way!). I remember in 6th grade when our class was tested,and Cody and I both scored at about 900 words per minute with something like 99% comprehension. Bugged the heck out of the teachers. (I think we scared them.) It wasn't until much later I'd find English teachers who were supportive and cheered me on in my reading--Mrs. Neal in seventh grade and high school especially shines in my memory. Nobody in Moscow, at the time I was growing up, read or would admit to reading science fiction. It was Dad and me out there by ourselves--proud to be in the weird minority. One tangible result: a few years ago, I was the only graduate student in a postmodern seminar to know what a Moebius (sp?) strip is, and was able to make one! More tangibly, SF is NOW my official field of scholarship. THat means I can buy and view all the SF I want (and it's tax deductible), and spend HOURS reading it and writing about it, and it's all Officially Approved (hahahahahahahahahahaha). When I was growing up, reading wasn't valued even that much at the university (land grant means agriculture, mining, forestry, etc.)--and I know that someone who read as much as I did was considered totally weird. Thank goodness for Cody! I had to leave Idaho to find communities where reading is valued. In terms of passing on to children--it doesn't come up often. I mostly contribute encouraging words to my friends who lament their children are ONLY reading SF. I point out that at least they're reading, for crying out loud, and SF didn't pollute my precious bodily fluids any. I am not too good at suggesting for children because apparently I read at totally different levels than I "should" have, so I'm never too sure about what to suggest. I still have a lot of my children's books (either lovingly saved, or bought later on), and unlike some, I still find myself totally immersed in new books with much the same glee and gusto as I always remember. Friends and family have to walk up to me and hit me over the head to get my attention when I am deep in a book I enjoy, whether I'm reading it for the first time or the fifteenth. I finally got a hold of a few of the OZ books I hadn't been able to years ago, and my housemate said it was almost frightening the way I "disappeared" into them that weekend. Sorry for the length, but what a great topic! To somewhat tie to feminist sf--I didn't notice the feminist issues until I was into graduate school--but I started reading feminist sf as soon as I could find any (Russ and LeGuin were the first). Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:28:55 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Guiding Children's Reading / family reading patterns / BDG question to Joan Vinge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sharon: Thanks for the very positive post on enabling young readers. BTW, in case anyone wondered, we have a system of yellow "Shelftalkers" in the store with YA recommendations on them to highlight some possibilities. I only wish I was able to place more in the mystery section -- by far the majority are in our SF section. ~~~~~~~ I know my youngest sister, who has mild Down's, has felt like she was able to participate in most parts of family life as enthusiastically as the rest of us, with the exception of reading. While the subject matter varies for all of us (Mom thrives on contemporary romance; Dad prefers anthologies and short story collections; brother reads history and historical fiction; sister reads mostly SF and mystery, since I tend to send her most of her reading matter ) we all read. And I know sometimes she feels isolated from the rest of us because of her language skills more than in any other area. Then again, she could just be more of a visual media person. _______ Janice: Forwarded your post to Joan, will post her reply here. Ciao, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:43:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Marc Levy wrote: > > Sharon Anderson wrote: > > > > > Thank goodness, Kathleen, there is someone else more than 30 years old on > > > this list! The first sf books I can remember reading were Cameron's Mushroom > > > Planet books. > > > > Omigod! You mean I wasn't the only one??? I was going to mention these > > books, but ... I don't know ... I just haven't been getting the feeling that I am > > as sophisticated yet about this stuff as the rest of you ... and maybe you all > > would laugh ... isn't that silly??? But I loved the "Mushroom Plantet" books, > > read them all! And Zip Zip? Did anyone every read "Zip Zip Goes to Venus"? > > Oh, how I got lost in those books! > > > > ...geminiwalker > > chuard@earthlink.net > > > > We're not all kids here. I remember the Mushroom Planet books too. I > didn't know there was a Zip Zip Goes to Venus, must have missed it, but I > did read Zip Zip Goes to Mars. How about Time Cat? > > Mike Maybe not, but we were all kids once! No, never heard of Time Cat. Tell me more! ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:39:35 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Anthea Hartley Stanton 11/07 7:25 AM >>> We're perhaps expecting a great deal of "cultural sensitivity" or "relativism" at a time when people tended to see things in black and white. The orcs represented the forces of such great evil that Tolkien could probably no more think of "communication" between Men and his orcs/trolls that you or I could think of establishing bonds with Nazi death camp guards, Stalin's NKVD or the South American death squads. I think one of the confusions the academy always runs into is that many people (academic and non-) have a little trouble distinguishing between analyzing and criticizing or revising. While I wouldn't expect us to (imagine the horror) rewrite LOTR so that it fits our sensibilities (even assuming that we somehow have perfect sensibilities) I'm not going to say that implicit racial bias in LOTR is a forbidden topic because "Tolkien didn't live now". Plenty of people in Tolkien's era did not share his views about the rest of the world. Some were better, some worse, some just different. We will have a much better understanding of history if we try to understand what Tolkien thought and why he thought as he did, and how who he was (that is, not working class, not female, not an immigrant) influenced what he wrote. If we can laud Tolkien for his environmentalism, we can also talk about his racism. And although we certainly shouldn't rewrite Tolkien "correctly" it sure is an interesting question why no orcs were ever good. After all, even in the concentration camps, there was Schindler. (who was sort of good. Actually, I met one of the survivors who had worked for Schindler. He had a picture of Schindler that the guy gave him, Schindler in a bathing suit standing in the surf. A little sepia picture probably from the late 1930s) In fact, I often try to envision the story from Sauron's perspective, or rewrite bits of it in my head. (Usually, I let Wormtongue reform...) The point isn't "oh, Tolkien should have included a good orc"; the question isn't "what form of story is best served by not having good orcs?" (although that's a good started question). The question is why Tolkien thought of a kind of story where good orcs were impossible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:41:19 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janice Bogstad Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, I read TIME CAT too and loved it. Also the Mushroom Planet books and Miss Pickeral - along with the standard Heinlein, Norton and my personal favorite as young child: Janice In Tomorrowland, written in 1938 - the author predictes nutra-sweet, water parks, overhead projectors, audio books and something 'like' a computer for use in schools as well as, get this, home shopping networks even before TV was at all popular. I think YA sf saved my life as a child and certainly alerted me to possibilities for my future that just weren't out there in public in rural Wisconsin - Jan Bogstad At 10:12 AM 11/9/98 -0600, you wrote: >> Sharon Anderson wrote: >> >> > Thank goodness, Kathleen, there is someone else more than 30 years old on >> > this list! The first sf books I can remember reading were Cameron's Mushroom >> > Planet books. >> >> Omigod! You mean I wasn't the only one??? I was going to mention these >> books, but ... I don't know ... I just haven't been getting the feeling that I am >> as sophisticated yet about this stuff as the rest of you ... and maybe you all >> would laugh ... isn't that silly??? But I loved the "Mushroom Plantet" books, >> read them all! And Zip Zip? Did anyone every read "Zip Zip Goes to Venus"? >> Oh, how I got lost in those books! >> >> ...geminiwalker >> chuard@earthlink.net >> > > >We're not all kids here. I remember the Mushroom Planet books too. I >didn't know there was a Zip Zip Goes to Venus, must have missed it, but I >did read Zip Zip Goes to Mars. How about Time Cat? > >Mike > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:07:29 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 98, at 4:14, Kate Willshaw wrote: > Kim Stanley Robinsons' three "Mars" books contain examples of voting and > elections. In fact a lot of the time these books are mainly about > democracy and rights for everyone and how a political system can be made > to work on behalf of everyone. Yes of course, thanks for reminding me. I'd forgotten these because I considered them "near future" so that I expected that they would follow today's patterns and didn't bother to check my database. I seem to remember/guess that _Red Mars_ is set a few decades from now but I can't check this from here. But of course you're right and ... > It is interesting that these books are as often termed "future history" as > they are SF. I love the way that they explore the birth of a new > nation/race and the way that people originally from earth gradually become > "martian" in outlook. KSR also explores how different political/societal > systems can be made to work - for example, matriachies and co-operatives, > and how these different systems could co-exist. ...in my opinion the treatment of different societal systems is extremely good - enough to provide almost a primer of "cultures in sf". > As someone who is very interested in the way that societies work, and the > prevention of injustices, these books definately hit the spot with me. > His treatment of different sexes is pretty amazing too. People are > individuals first and men and women second. The only sexism that takes > place is in the context of history rather than in the context of the > story. I thought that too. I understand his treatment is the same in his other novels though the only other one I've read is _Icehenge_. _Antarctica_ has been in my to-be-read bookcase for weeks now and God knows when I'll have time to read it! Thanks again Kate AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _______________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:09:36 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 98, at 9:55, John Bertland wrote: > Another recent one is Walter Jon William's Metropolitan and City > on Fire (and I think there is a third book coming), which describe > a revolution with proclaimed democratic goals even though they > haven't quite gotten there by the end of the third book. I've read _Metropolitan_ (not _City on fire_) but again I didn't think that this was set far enough in the future. I'm not trying to weasel (much!) - it's just that I was thinking of far enough in the future for a major societal change to occur across an entire world. I thought that in some ways, the society in _Metropolitan_ was almost an extrapolation (except for the driving base) of that in _The voice of the whirlwind_ with a "magical gadget" (plasm) to liven things up. I haven't re-read the book for some years but in my notes on it I used "deus ex machina" as a key term to describe it. > I think (to generalize boldly) sf writers naturally tend to see > science as the engine of social change rather than politics, and > that they prefer to write cautionary tales of > future dystopias perhaps for the dramatic potential. And also, I think, to use not "science" but "technology" in the sense that not principles but a particular range of gadgets (the current favourite appears to be "nanotechnology" having just taken over from "artificial intelligence") is what works the magic. Off topic: I was very impressed with Williams' _Hardwired_ which I found one of the first books to make the concept of a "human mind stored in an electronic network" real to me. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _______________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:11:22 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Booksignings in the Boston area Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of any booksignings etc in the Boston area during the period Sat 9 Jan to Sat 23 Jan 1999? I need the info urgently. We have to go to Boston on business for 5 working days in that period and we'd like to combine business with pleasure. We could take one continuous 5 working day period - 11-15, 18-22 - plus the ONE weekend following or preceding the working days. I know it's both short notice and a real long-shot but one never knows one's luck. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _______________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:17:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Childhood Reading, Adult SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jane, "The Girl Who Owned a City" was my daughter's favorite book in junior high--she read it until it fell to pieces. I myself grew up with a variety of books. My parents were both college grads--although I was in a single-parent household after age 8--and my mother would read to my brother and me every day. I can still hear her voice telling us of "Franz, a Dog of the Police" by Colonel S.P. Meek and "Silver Chief, Dog of the North". When I was 6, my grandmother sent a box of my mother's childhood books to us--"Black Beauty", "Lad: a Dog", Carol Brink's "Mademoiselle Misfortune" and sets of Nancy Drew, Tarzan, and John Carter of Mars. I was in heaven. Then when I was 8, we moved in bike distance of the public library, and every Saturday I would ride over and bring back 5 books [the limit] to last me the week. When I ran out, I read my grandfather's Twain, my mother's drama, essay, and poetry collections, and my grandmother's Taylor Caldwells. I discovered Heinlein & Norton in 5th grade, but before that I'd read Eager, Nesbit, Cameron, and Lewis. When I was old enough to babysit, in 5th grade, I found I could buy genre paperbacks for $ .35 at the drugstore--my first SFs were a Judith Merrill and Heinlein' s "Green Hills of Earth". Many of the later classic children's fantasies--Susan Cooper, Lloyd Alexander, LeGuin weren't published until I was in library school, but after reading them there, I got to share them with daughter Meg. Now they're with my nieces until Meg has kids of her own. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 "That All May Read!" My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them! >>> Jane Franklin 11/09 8:51 AM >>> Not only did I read the Grey King Series, I can still recite the verse that links the stories together. ("Iron for the birthday, bronze carried long"...etc) Moreover, I can recite yards of poetry from Tolkien and the vast majority of the chant from Madeline L'Engle's Swiftly Tilting Planet. Also, did anyone ever read a book called The Girl Who Owned A City? I read it when I was little and found a copy recently in a thrift store, only now realizing that it is set within two miles of where I grew up. It's this bizarre libertarian propaganda fable, but it is sf and it has a girl hero. >>> "Candioglos, Sandy" 11/06 11:43 AM >>> John Christopher!! I remember those stories! I read everything I could find of his on the library shelf. I saw the tripod series recently at Powell's; I had almost completely forgotten their existence until then. Did anybody else read "the grey king" series by Susan Cooper? I loved that series; I've always thought Wales was fascinating. -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Jane Franklin [mailto:JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU] Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 9:01 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Childhood Reading, Adult SF Has anyone read a book called "The Silver Link, the Silken Tie"? Or "Anna to the Infinite Power"? Children's sf I just now remembered. How about those "Pool of Fire" books? I also read a lot of Wells at a very young age. We had a giant book of all his short stories. Some of them made me feel quite ill. Also, the one about the people-eating octopi--I still try not to think about that when I'm swimming. I really feel like I could absorb upsetting literature much better when I chose to read it, even without explanations. I guess if it didn't bore me then I was ready for it on some level. I must have been seven or so when I was reading Wells, since I remember reading him on the way to piano lessons. I never had any trouble with early 20th century and 19th century writing styles either, and for this reason was a mystery and trouble to my classmates. Although I still have serious trouble with Henry James's prose. I really like him, but he is one of the few authors I read slowly slowly slowly. >>> No Name Available 11/06 9:34 AM >>> >From the looks of the previous posts, I may be writing from another generation. The first "adult" SF I read must have been Wells and Verne; at least I was reading both of them by 4th grade (blame/thank my mother). She had some well-meant but fuzzy ideas about a child's reading ability. When I was in second grade, she took away my small books and started handing me unabridged novels--- Kidnapped, Treasure Island, Robinson Crusoe, Little Women, Toby Tyler (!), Howard Pyle's Robin Hood, Huck Finn, Kim--- one a month for years. I was an early reader, and eager to chew my way through almost anything, but it was strange going. She also had an old high-school lit book, from the 1930s. It had a section from Ivanhoe and Conan Doyle's White Company, as well as a little translated Verne. I was hooked on 19th c. language and storytelling, by then; even so, I liked Wells more than Verne. I loved first-person narratives, the feeling of being taken along on a ride. And I remember setting my brother and two neighbor sisters up on collapsed lawn chairs as our time machines, taking trips under the pear trees in the back yard. Before that, I remember Eleanor Cameron's Mushroom Planet books, and shortly afterward, Heinlein's kid books and Ray Bradbury. I did try Andre Norton, but didn't like her. I also got my hands on some William Tenn and Eric Frank Russell. And, finally, Naomi Mitchison's Memoirs of a Spacewoman, right before L'Engle's Wrinkle in Time was first published. By Jr High, I was reading any adult SF I came across, fairly indiscriminately, as I recall. I can't tell what adult fantasy I read first-- I've been trying to remember, but I read so much, especially if it had anything to do with time-fantasy, or anything vaguely related to Arthurian legend, mythology, folktales--- many of which were not "children's" books, and many of which must have had fantasy elements. And then again, in the late 50s and early 60s, "fantasy" wasn't a marketing category for adults the way it is now. I remember reading T.H. White's Arthurian books at about the same time I hit Tolkien, when I was about 15 (when Ballantine first put them out in paperback); my tattered old copies of Eddison and Howard are from around then, too; that's about the best I can do. I still have those cheap battered childhood novels, and I read them again every once in a while. Some of the earliest, that I loved, I can still slip into with the same drugged wonder I had the first time around, although there are a few new jolts. Rereading Cameron, as an adult, was a joy; L'Engle still absorbing; Bradbury very nostalgic, but a little sentimental; Heinlein, less fun. William Mayne is as haunting and wonderful as ever, maybe even more so now. William Tenn's stories still have that terrific feel to them, but their profound sexism makes them as hard to enjoy now as Disney's reissued "classics." I must have shrugged a lot of that off, as a younger reader, or consigned his ditsy women and horny men to bimbo-limbo. I will say that that old absorbing thrill, being lost in a good read of a new book, is very hard to find these days. Kathleen M. Friello (new list address) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:41:28 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Juliet O'Keefe Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" In-Reply-To: <3644FBA9.1E42A8BC@cdsnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:02 PM 11/7/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Thank goodness, Kathleen, there is someone else more than 30 years old on >this list! The first sf books I can remember reading were Cameron's Mushroom >Planet books. It's just too interesting to jump in when the discussion turns to the books we found so compelling as children that we became lovers of the written word for the rest of our lives... For me it was science fiction and fantasy, early, a matter of stumbling on my father's books and digging in the school library. There were three of them that I read in Grade 2: a book of rewritten Celtic fables by Ella Young entitled The Unicorn with Silver Shoes (anyone else ever heard of it - or her?); some collection called something like Space Stories of Venus; and Jack Vance's Dying Earth, which I remember hoarding away and trying not to read too quickly so that it wouldn't end. Loved his sentence structure, loved his imagery. Don't know what I would think of it now, but at 7 years old T'sais and her black horse with faceted amber eyes --and the land she lived in where the sky was a constantly shifting rainbow of colours--left me with a permanent hunger for other, greater worlds, a permanent sense of dissatisfaction with things as they are, and a permanent sense of looking always for the door to the Other Place--through the back of the wardrobe,or wherever. As I have become older I have found, thank the powers that be, that this door into the other lands can be found many places, in music, and art, and through other people as well. And then, of course, there was Harriet the Spy, which is neither fantasy or Science Fiction, but which changed my life in all the best ways possible. Louise Fitzhugh, if you can somehow hear this: thank you, thank you, thank you. Just had to say that. Juliet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:06:29 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: children's books In-Reply-To: <9826b354.364530c7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > I was brought up in a town in Western Pennsylvania, pop 1000. We didn't have > a library.> I was brought up under similar circumstances, although my town of 2000 was blessed with a library and access to interlibrary loan. Plus, my mother was the librarian, and used to take me to work with her instead of hiring a babysitter. Hmmm... guess what I used to do for hours and hours on end? > > Didn't get to sci fi/fantasy until high school in California. Got there via > Ayn Rand. A weird connection, but nonetheless... > Not so strange, actually, in my opinion. Although as an adult, I certainly have a huge bone to pick with Ms. Rand over precisely ALL of her politics, as a high schooler I liked Atlas Shrugged not only for its speculative fiction aspects, but because Dagny Taggert was a strong female character who ends up saving her man from the bad guys in the end, not the other way around. Of course, Ayn Rand's books often involve bizarre and disturbing rape-fantasies to her strong female characters, which always disturbed me. And her "good" females are surrounded by a million stereotyped ones, but given the time the books were written, they could be considered almost progressive. Anyway. Not exactly children's books, but I read them as a "child" (15 or 16). Although I had discovered SF and fantasy long before then (Narnia, LOTH, John Christopher, Heinlein, etc. etc., tons of short story compilations, etc. etc.). Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:16:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Honor Harrington Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And I respect your viewpoint. However, "doctor" is gender-neutral; "sir" and "mister" are both masculine. "Lady doctor" is adding a feminine word to a gender-neutral word to create a compound. Nina "Barbara R. Hume" wrote: > In a message dated 11/3/98 1:59:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, mbarron@MINT.NET > writes: > > << I enjoy Kate Mulgrew in the role, but I cringe every time I hear > someone in the Trek universe address a female officer as "sir" or > "mister." You would think there was something inferior about being a > "ma'am" or a "ms."! >> > > I look at it as identifying a superior officer as an officer, not as a > female or male officer. I see it in the same light as calling Crusher a > doctor rather than a lady doctor. > > barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:58:57 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: reading autobiography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is about the third person I've seen who has said that at least one of their parents was a teacher. Both of mine taught (until I was born, then my mom quit); my dad just retired from teaching 7th grade Art/Tech Drawing/geography/history a year ago. My boyfriend, who reads even more voraciously than I do, has a professor for a father. I wonder what proportion of really avid readers have parents who were either teachers or librarians? My guess would be that those two professions in particular are more apt to read to their kids, which would be more likely to develop interested readers. Maybe not, though; my younger sister never got "into" reading, though she could do it well enough. She was much more of a tomboy than I was. :) -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin Reid [SMTP:Robin_Reid@TAMU-COMMERCE.EDU] > Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 9:56 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] reading autobiography > > I've been fascinated by the reading histories presented by people in regard > to the question of what they read as children--some fascinating results tied > to age (especially given the fact that librarians used to control access but > they no longer do so), gender, and such. I'm 43, was raised in Moscow, > Idaho (town of about 13,000, but it had the state's land grant university). > No bookstore existed in the town before the seventies except the college > one, so I remember the thrill of going to Real Bookstores in Spokane, > Washington when we were up for dentist, doctor, shopping trips, etc. (*in > fact, my reward was usually a book.) I still get totally Turned On by > good bookstore and libraries. Sensual extravaganzas. > > I started to "read" when I was three. Was blessed with grandparents and > parents who read aloud to me a great deal, but apparently I was starting to > recognize words in stories I'd memorized early on, and reading at an early > age. I got in trouble in first grade because phonics was all the rage then, > and I was told I was reading WRONG (word recognition). So I stopped > reading. Besides, Dick & Jane bored me to tears. Turned out I was > reading at a 4th grade level, but this fact really bugged my teachers. > My mother hated the fifties and early sixties for the insistence on > conformity--luckily, my father was a university professor able to intimidate > the (female) principal and teachers--and he kept reading to me when I'd > refuse. (Well, hey, when you're told you are doing something WRONG, > you're supposed to stop, right?). > > Then my best friend Cody introduced me to the OZ books by L. Frank Baum and > Ruth Plumley Thompson (we didn't distinguish between the two authors when we > were six--our town's children's librarian put them all together--they were > big fat books bound in green cloth with gold lettering--ummmmm, I can still > "feel" and smell them. Yum. Cody and I used to check out books when we > stayed overnight and lie on a big double bed and read together. So I had to > start reading. (Interestingly enough Baum created girl protagonists, and > Thompson boys.) > > Like a lot of people my generation and older seem to say, I sort of didn't > notice the gender problems (lack of female characters, or extremely > stereotyped female characters) until puberty hit. But let's not get onto > that now. (I remember loving Andre Norton for years because her > protagonists, male or female, all experienced alienation and had to search > for acceptance--and often hung out with sentient felinoids.) > > Good books when I was a kid: The Cameron Mushroom Planet series. A series > about a kitten who kept stowing away on space ships (I cannot remember the > author but I LOVED the stories) and going into space and visiting ohter > planets. Eleanor Cameron's OTHER books. Jane Langton's books (especially > the "Shy Steogosaurus" ones). Oz of course forever and ever--and multiple > times. But also my father's ANALOGS. Horse books, or anything with > animals. The Heinlein and Asimov juveniles. Tolkien in junior high. The > librarian said since I liked Oz, I'd like _The Hobbit_ but I actually hated > it (picked up on what JRRT himself was a patronizing tone in it), but loved > LOTR when I hit it at 13 or so. There was this on-going search for stories > with women protagonists, and I loved the "romances" (before they became so > commercialized) created by Mary Stewart, Phyllis Whitney, Victoria Holt, > and Georgette Heyer. > > I was probably an irritating little kid, and kept getting into trouble for > reading outside the Socially Arranged Categories. Cody and I'd read > everything in the "children's and young adult" library by sixth grade or so, > and our parents had to petition for special permission to allow us to go > upstairs to the "adult" section. I found great stuff there, but also scary > ones (some of the sex and violence in the historical novels spooked me) > although a lot of it went over my head. I leaped into science fiction and > historical novels. My mother and father always encouraged us to read, and > we had books all over the house. I remember the "five foot shelf of books," > and reading Shakespeare at an early age as well. I wrote too. My parents > didn't believe in censoring any of my brother's or my reading: I remember > getting ahold of _Lady Chatterley's Lover_ at a fairly young age, and being > so bored with it, I never got past the first chapter or two. _Forever > Amber_ was great though! > > Just remembered: loved the English kids' series. Lewis, until I figured > out his Allegorial Message, and E. Nesbit, and George MacDonald (_Back of > the North Wind_ though it scared me a lot at times). I also, because of my > name, became an early fan of all Robin Hood stories, and thus British > history novels in any form. > > I read lots, but I got into trouble lots. The city librarians wouldn't let > me particiate in any of the summer reading contests because I read too fast > and too much. I still remember how great it was when they went from only > letting us check out six books to letting us check out as many as we wanted. > The summer contest came to a head one summer when a commitee was established > to "prove" I hadn't really read all the books I'd read--I promptly recited > lengthy and detailed plot summaries of every one they asked me about, hee > hee hee! (I was born to be an English teacher.) But then they made that > rule exluding me. (Can't participate in a contest because she's too > good--ah, the American way!). > > I remember in 6th grade when our class was tested,and Cody and I both scored > at about 900 words per minute with something like 99% comprehension. Bugged > the heck out of the teachers. (I think we scared them.) It wasn't until > much later I'd find English teachers who were supportive and cheered me on > in my reading--Mrs. Neal in seventh grade and high school especially > shines in my memory. > > Nobody in Moscow, at the time I was growing up, read or would admit to > reading science fiction. It was Dad and me out there by ourselves--proud to > be in the weird minority. > One tangible result: a few years ago, I was the only graduate student in a > postmodern seminar to know what a Moebius (sp?) strip is, and was able to > make one! More tangibly, SF is NOW my official field of scholarship. THat > means I can buy and view all the SF I want (and it's tax deductible), and > spend HOURS reading it and writing about it, and it's all Officially > Approved (hahahahahahahahahahaha). > > When I was growing up, reading wasn't valued even that much at the > university (land grant means agriculture, mining, forestry, etc.)--and I > know that someone who read as much as I did was considered totally weird. > Thank goodness for Cody! I had to leave Idaho to find communities where > reading is valued. > > In terms of passing on to children--it doesn't come up often. I mostly > contribute encouraging words to my friends who lament their children are > ONLY reading SF. I point out that at least they're reading, for crying out > loud, and SF didn't pollute my precious bodily fluids any. I am not too > good at suggesting for children because apparently I read at totally > different levels than I "should" have, so I'm never too sure about what to > suggest. I still have a lot of my children's books (either lovingly saved, > or bought later on), and unlike some, I still find myself totally immersed > in new books with much the same glee and gusto as I always remember. > Friends and family have to walk up to me and hit me over the head to get my > attention when I am deep in a book I enjoy, whether I'm reading it for the > first time or the fifteenth. I finally got a hold of a few of the OZ books > I hadn't been able to years ago, and my housemate said it was almost > frightening the way I "disappeared" into them that weekend. > > Sorry for the length, but what a great topic! To somewhat tie to feminist > sf--I didn't notice the feminist issues until I was into graduate > school--but I started reading feminist sf as soon as I could find any > (Russ and LeGuin were the first). > > Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:48:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Childhood Reading, Adult SF In-Reply-To: from Jane Franklin at "Nov 6, 98 11:00:41 am" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jane Franklin writes: > Has anyone read a book called "The Silver Link, the Silken Tie"? Or > "Anna to the Infinite Power"? Children's sf I just now remembered. > How about those "Pool of Fire" books? Both by Mildred Ames. She also wrote _Is There Life on a Plastic Planet?_, which is an odd book about children replacing themselves with 'dolls' (clones?). _Anna to the Infinite Power_ was one of my favourites when I was a kid -- very spooky & disturbing. I should reread it. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:14:49 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: reading autobiography In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" smile, yeah when I was growing up I thought my mother was a teacher more than my teachers at school, she knew a lot of things because she read voraciously and I just picked it up from her...we had willa cather and dickens and hemingway all over the place hehe...she graduated from high school in 1947 and married my father and was a housewife till she died...but you know it wasn't until much much later on after her death I realized how really smart she was. She had 8 siblings and she was the youngest yet she made the time to do everyone's income taxes by longhand and a pencil hehe, the long forms too...if her circumstances had been different I really believe she would have been a teacher of some type, as in doing it for a career, but she was born in a time when women did not pursue those things, you cared for your family, you went to church, you were a good wife...there is one time she defended her brother in court and the judge let him go because she read some lawbooks about what they charged her brother with and figured out how to defend him...reading empowered her definitely. She died when I was 11. Jo Ann At 02:58 PM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >This is about the third person I've seen who has said that at least one of >their parents was a teacher. Both of mine taught (until I was born, then my >mom quit); my dad just retired from teaching 7th grade Art/Tech >Drawing/geography/history a year ago. My boyfriend, who reads even more >voraciously than I do, has a professor for a father. I wonder what >proportion of really avid readers have parents who were either teachers or >librarians? My guess would be that those two professions in particular are >more apt to read to their kids, which would be more likely to develop >interested readers. Maybe not, though; my younger sister never got "into" >reading, though she could do it well enough. She was much more of a tomboy >than I was. :) > > -Sandy > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robin Reid [SMTP:Robin_Reid@TAMU-COMMERCE.EDU] >> Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 9:56 AM >> To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> Subject: [*FSFFU*] reading autobiography >> >> I've been fascinated by the reading histories presented by people in regard >> to the question of what they read as children--some fascinating results tied >> to age (especially given the fact that librarians used to control access but >> they no longer do so), gender, and such. I'm 43, was raised in Moscow, >> Idaho (town of about 13,000, but it had the state's land grant university). >> No bookstore existed in the town before the seventies except the college >> one, so I remember the thrill of going to Real Bookstores in Spokane, >> Washington when we were up for dentist, doctor, shopping trips, etc. (*in >> fact, my reward was usually a book.) I still get totally Turned On by >> good bookstore and libraries. Sensual extravaganzas. >> >> I started to "read" when I was three. Was blessed with grandparents and >> parents who read aloud to me a great deal, but apparently I was starting to >> recognize words in stories I'd memorized early on, and reading at an early >> age. I got in trouble in first grade because phonics was all the rage then, >> and I was told I was reading WRONG (word recognition). So I stopped >> reading. Besides, Dick & Jane bored me to tears. Turned out I was reading >> at a 4th grade level, but this fact really bugged my teachers. My mother >> hated the fifties and early sixties for the insistence on >> conformity--luckily, my father was a university professor able to intimidate >> the (female) principal and teachers--and he kept reading to me when I'd >> refuse. (Well, hey, when you're told you are doing something WRONG, >> you're supposed to stop, right?). >> >> Then my best friend Cody introduced me to the OZ books by L. Frank Baum and >> Ruth Plumley Thompson (we didn't distinguish between the two authors when we >> were six--our town's children's librarian put them all together--they were >> big fat books bound in green cloth with gold lettering--ummmmm, I can still >> "feel" and smell them. Yum. Cody and I used to check out books when we >> stayed overnight and lie on a big double bed and read together. So I had to >> start reading. (Interestingly enough Baum created girl protagonists, and >> Thompson boys.) >> >> Like a lot of people my generation and older seem to say, I sort of didn't >> notice the gender problems (lack of female characters, or extremely >> stereotyped female characters) until puberty hit. But let's not get onto >> that now. (I remember loving Andre Norton for years because her >> protagonists, male or female, all experienced alienation and had to search >> for acceptance--and often hung out with sentient felinoids.) >> >> Good books when I was a kid: The Cameron Mushroom Planet series. A series >> about a kitten who kept stowing away on space ships (I cannot remember the >> author but I LOVED the stories) and going into space and visiting ohter >> planets. Eleanor Cameron's OTHER books. Jane Langton's books (especially >> the "Shy Steogosaurus" ones). Oz of course forever and ever--and multiple >> times. But also my father's ANALOGS. Horse books, or anything with >> animals. The Heinlein and Asimov juveniles. Tolkien in junior high. The >> librarian said since I liked Oz, I'd like _The Hobbit_ but I actually hated >> it (picked up on what JRRT himself was a patronizing tone in it), but loved >> LOTR when I hit it at 13 or so. There was this on-going search for stories >> with women protagonists, and I loved the "romances" (before they became so >> commercialized) created by Mary Stewart, Phyllis Whitney, Victoria Holt, >> and Georgette Heyer. >> >> I was probably an irritating little kid, and kept getting into trouble for >> reading outside the Socially Arranged Categories. Cody and I'd read >> everything in the "children's and young adult" library by sixth grade or so, >> and our parents had to petition for special permission to allow us to go >> upstairs to the "adult" section. I found great stuff there, but also scary >> ones (some of the sex and violence in the historical novels spooked me) >> although a lot of it went over my head. I leaped into science fiction and >> historical novels. My mother and father always encouraged us to read, and >> we had books all over the house. I remember the "five foot shelf of books," >> and reading Shakespeare at an early age as well. I wrote too. My parents >> didn't believe in censoring any of my brother's or my reading: I remember >> getting ahold of _Lady Chatterley's Lover_ at a fairly young age, and being >> so bored with it, I never got past the first chapter or two. _Forever >> Amber_ was great though! >> >> Just remembered: loved the English kids' series. Lewis, until I figured >> out his Allegorial Message, and E. Nesbit, and George MacDonald (_Back of >> the North Wind_ though it scared me a lot at times). I also, because of my >> name, became an early fan of all Robin Hood stories, and thus British >> history novels in any form. >> >> I read lots, but I got into trouble lots. The city librarians wouldn't let >> me particiate in any of the summer reading contests because I read too fast >> and too much. I still remember how great it was when they went from only >> letting us check out six books to letting us check out as many as we wanted. >> The summer contest came to a head one summer when a commitee was established >> to "prove" I hadn't really read all the books I'd read--I promptly recited >> lengthy and detailed plot summaries of every one they asked me about, hee >> hee hee! (I was born to be an English teacher.) But then they made that >> rule exluding me. (Can't participate in a contest because she's too >> good--ah, the American way!). >> >> I remember in 6th grade when our class was tested,and Cody and I both scored >> at about 900 words per minute with something like 99% comprehension. Bugged >> the heck out of the teachers. (I think we scared them.) It wasn't until >> much later I'd find English teachers who were supportive and cheered me on >> in my reading--Mrs. Neal in seventh grade and high school especially >> shines in my memory. >> >> Nobody in Moscow, at the time I was growing up, read or would admit to >> reading science fiction. It was Dad and me out there by ourselves--proud to >> be in the weird minority. >> One tangible result: a few years ago, I was the only graduate student in a >> postmodern seminar to know what a Moebius (sp?) strip is, and was able to >> make one! More tangibly, SF is NOW my official field of scholarship. THat >> means I can buy and view all the SF I want (and it's tax deductible), and >> spend HOURS reading it and writing about it, and it's all Officially >> Approved (hahahahahahahahahahaha). >> >> When I was growing up, reading wasn't valued even that much at the >> university (land grant means agriculture, mining, forestry, etc.)--and I >> know that someone who read as much as I did was considered totally weird. >> Thank goodness for Cody! I had to leave Idaho to find communities where >> reading is valued. >> >> In terms of passing on to children--it doesn't come up often. I mostly >> contribute encouraging words to my friends who lament their children are >> ONLY reading SF. I point out that at least they're reading, for crying out >> loud, and SF didn't pollute my precious bodily fluids any. I am not too >> good at suggesting for children because apparently I read at totally >> different levels than I "should" have, so I'm never too sure about what to >> suggest. I still have a lot of my children's books (either lovingly saved, >> or bought later on), and unlike some, I still find myself totally immersed >> in new books with much the same glee and gusto as I always remember. >> Friends and family have to walk up to me and hit me over the head to get my >> attention when I am deep in a book I enjoy, whether I'm reading it for the >> first time or the fifteenth. I finally got a hold of a few of the OZ books >> I hadn't been able to years ago, and my housemate said it was almost >> frightening the way I "disappeared" into them that weekend. >> >> Sorry for the length, but what a great topic! To somewhat tie to feminist >> sf--I didn't notice the feminist issues until I was into graduate >> school--but I started reading feminist sf as soon as I could find any >> (Russ and LeGuin were the first). >> >> Robin > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:17:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: *Book of the New Sun* Reference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was just rereading some messages from the last few weeks and came across this sentence: On 28 Oct 1998, Daniel Krashin wrote: > I wish someone would spend five years or so writing a BotNS > concordance, BTW, explaining all the cross-references and hidden > easter eggs that Wolfe packed into those books. Your wish is granted! Michael Andre-Driussi (aka "Mantis") has written a book titled *Lexicon Urthus* that is described as "a brief Lexicon for Gene Wolfe's *The Book of the New Sun*, *The Urth of the New Sun*, and *Empires of Foliage and Flower* as well as Shorter Stories, including glosses on Biblical Allusions, Ships of Sail and Oar, Kabbalistic Notions, Archaic English Words, Diverse Arms and Armor, Extinct and Exotic Animals, Latin Terms military and civic, in addition to Myths and Legends from China, Greece, Arabia, Oceania, Rome, India, Persia, and South America." For anyone who is interested, there is also a mailing list devoted to these works. There are online archives at http://moonmilk.volcano.org/urth/archives/. If you have any questions about Wolfe, ask these folks! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:23:32 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: reading autobiography Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Robin reminded me -- had forgotten the Albert Payson Terhune books -- Lad, A Dog etc... I read them all and wept buckets. Also Beautiful Joe. Anyone remember that one? When I was very sick, with mumps and the like, my Grandmother let me read her book called "The Sinking of the Luisitania." Scared me. But I always loved to read it. I was the only kid in town who knew what the Luisitania was. When I couldn't get any new books I worked away at my father's Complete Zane Gray. Someone had given it to him in lieu of payment (he was a sign painter). Thought they were terribly dull, but in a pinch I'd read anything. I remember not liking his women and not being able to identify with the men. I still have a lot of the books from these times. Including a collection of world fairy tales, which I loved. Except for "East o' the Sun and West o' the Moon" which I always thought was unfair. smiling, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:13:52 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: reading autobiography Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/9/98 4:27:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, Zozie@AOL.COM writes: << Robin reminded me -- had forgotten the Albert Payson Terhune books -- Lad, A Dog etc... I read them all and wept buckets. Also Beautiful Joe. Anyone remember that one? >> I remember Beautiful Joe. One of those books I've never forgotten, even though as an adult I've lost all my interest in dogs and horses and other animals. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:37:35 +0900 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: JoAnn Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Had anyone else read _Mrs Pickerel Goes to Mars_? I would like to know who the author was, and I can't find the title on any internet book searches :-( It was definitely my first sf book, featuring a rocket built in the pasture of Mrs Pickerel's beloved pet cow for Mr Haggerty(?), scientist. I loved the description of how he was such a brilliant person when it came to scientific facts, but since his brain was filled with that, it had no room for anything else; he carried a huge briefcase filled with scraps of paper upon which he had written persons' names, appointments, that sort of thing. Mrs Pickerel was a handy widow-type older lady who always carried a magnetic hammer in her apron... She winds up stowing away in the rocket on its trip to Mars, and her hammer features prominently in messing up the instrumentation. JoAnn sitehund@kdn0.attnet.or.jp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:16:24 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: OT--Harriet the Spy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juliet wrote: > And then, of course, there was Harriet the Spy, which is neither > fantasy or Science Fiction, but which changed my life in all the > best ways possible. Louise Fitzhugh, if you can somehow hear this: > thank you, thank you, thank you. > > Just had to say that. > Wow! I'm so gratified to hear this! I've never heard anyone speak with the same sentiments I have about Harriet the Spy. I read that book until it fell apart and I had to get another one. Did you read the sequel, The Long Secret, too? Harriet the Spy will always stand out as the origin of my love of literature and writing. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:13:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Booksignings in the Boston area Comments: To: Anthea Hartley Stanton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ARISIA 99 - is a boston convention over the weekend 8-10 jan. you could probably get many things signed there. Here is more info and a web site: ARISIA '99. ( http://www.arisia.org/ ) Westin Copley Place, 10 Huntingon Ave. Boston, MA 02116; 617-262-9600, 800-WESTIN1; rms: $109 sngl/dbl; $149 jr. suite. GoH: Roger MacBride Allen; FGoHs: Patrick & Teresa Nielson Hayden; AGoH: Gary Lippincott. Memb: $30 until 11/30/98. Info: ARISIA, Inc., 1 Kendall Square, Suite 322, Cambridge, MA 02139; info@arisia.org. -----Original Message----- From: Anthea Hartley Stanton To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 2:24 PM Subject: [*FSFFU*] Booksignings in the Boston area >Does anyone know of any booksignings etc in the Boston area during the period >Sat 9 Jan to Sat 23 Jan 1999? I need the info urgently. > >We have to go to Boston on business for 5 working days in that period and we'd >like to combine business with pleasure. We could take one continuous 5 working >day period - 11-15, 18-22 - plus the ONE weekend following or preceding the >working days. I know it's both short notice and a real long-shot but one never >knows one's luck. > > > > >AJ >Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) >_______________________________________ > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:23:26 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: OT--sorry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit forgive another post off-topic. i feel my previous post about leaving the group was a knee-jerk reaction to one too many (IMO) inflammatory (sp?) postings. not only did i manage to forget about all the great ideas and opportunities to learn from this list, but i also managed to assume my decision to leave was of interest to anyone else--not humble, to say the least. i'm new to this and haven't quite gotten the hang of ignoring things that bother me but which are, really, none of my business. for the most part, this is a very worthwhile list. FWIW. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:33:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: IAFA conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe and all, Yup, I am going. The Tiptree Award is being presented at ICFA/IAFA 18 -21 March 99, so there should be a good showing of feminist authors there as well. If anyone wants more info here is the website: http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/iafa/iafa.home.html And yes, I am always looking to room/suite share. I spent all my holiday money on the Crones page. All temperaments welcome . Then no one has to apologize. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net > Robin just posted something reminding me of the IAFA conference in March. >Is anybody else on the list going? I think Donna Simone said she was >(right, donna?), but what about the rest of us? Maybe we should get our >own suite. . .then again, considering the tempers on this listserv, maybe >that's a bad idea. . . .(heh heh). > >Joe > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:03:43 +0100 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Re: reading autobiography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phoebe Wray wrote: > > Robin reminded me -- had forgotten the Albert Payson Terhune books -- Lad, A > Dog etc... I read them all and wept buckets. Also Beautiful Joe. Anyone > remember that one? Yes, I remember Beautiful Joe, and all the Terhune books. I also watched all the old movies where Roddy McDowell had this wonderful dog, Lassie, who manages to brave untold hardships to return to his young master (sniff,sniff). At the present time I am owned by six dogs. How about the Classics Illustrated comics? Anyone remember them? I saw one in an antique store recently . Or Uncle Wiggly? Terri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: BDG snow queen (on-topic this time) In-Reply-To: <19981108230856.7747.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:08 PM 11/08/98 -0800, Karen wrote: > >another thing i noticed about her writing style, and this is not a bad >thing, is that she seemed to enjoy her tough-talking city dwelling >characters the most (e.g. jerusha, tor, herne) and this gave the parts >of the book a very american, hard-boiled flavor. part traditional space >opera, part noir flick. interesting. Yes, now that you mention it, it's almost as if those three characters existed in a different story. Were there analogues for them in the Snow Queen fairy tale? If not, perhaps that's it. It's as if she really liked those characters the best, and gave them all kinds of complex motivations and interesting dialog, even though some of them were quite irrelevant to the main story. Makes me wonder how Jerusha will fit into Summer Queen, since I haven't read it yet. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:40:10 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: star trek question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hit the delete button now if you don't want to discuss TV SF (star trek). I have been neglecting to watch the various flavors of ST recently but I notice that this season one of my favorite characters, that woman with the worm in her and all those dots on her neck, drat I can't remember her name, is gone from DS9. Evidently her "symbiont" or worm is back on the show in another actor/host. I don't know the reason for her previous actor/host's demise, at least in terms of the storylines -- did she die? Presumably I could read all about this on the web, but here's my real question: that character recently got married, and I am wondering if this is a case of "if you get some, you have to die", the rule we've discussed here before. That is, here's a strong female character in a reasonably loving relationship, so they kill her off. If it were a case of the actor demanding too much money, presumably they could just have had her "transferred" somewhere off show. Having the same symbiont in another body is a fairly drastic thing to do. Perhaps I misread the TV weekly and got this all wrong (please don't post 100 responses to that effect, have some bandwidth mercy!) and someone will educate me. I'll work on my Gilda Radner "never mind" imitation just in case. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:14:57 -0500 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: star trek question In-Reply-To: <19981110030230653.AAB333.309@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Actually, Terry Farrel, the actress who plays Jadzia Dax, left to "pursue other career goals" Since she has a bit part in a really really bad Ted Danson sitcom this year, I don't know how accurate that is, or rather if that is some official PR spin. This is DS9's last season on-air, so she might have opted to leave while the leaving was good. She was one of my very favorite, albeit terribly underutilized, ST characters, and I can only hope they will develop more symbiont related-stuff on the new Dax. As much as I like your analysis, I doubt its true, especially with Kira and Odo's finally consummated relationship. In a (not very) interesting (to watch, anyways) twist, *Odo* has lost all sense of self into the relationship, and Kira remains a strong, capable, competent character. His personality, on the other hand, now resembles his relaxed state as a boneless pool of goo. But at least the female character isn't the one dissolved...small progress. On 9 Nov 98, , Jennifer Krauel wrote: > Hit the delete button now if you don't want to discuss TV SF (star trek). > > I have been neglecting to watch the various flavors of ST recently but I > notice that this season one of my favorite characters, that woman with the > worm in her and all those dots on her neck, drat I can't remember her > name, is gone from DS9. Evidently her "symbiont" or worm is back on the > show in another actor/host. I don't know the reason for her previous > actor/host's demise, at least in terms of the storylines -- did she die? > Presumably I could read all about this on the web, but here's my real > question: that character recently got married, and I am wondering if this > is a case of "if you get some, you have to die", the rule we've discussed > here before. That is, here's a strong female character in a reasonably > loving relationship, so they kill her off. > > If it were a case of the actor demanding too much money, presumably they > could just have had her "transferred" somewhere off show. Having the same > symbiont in another body is a fairly drastic thing to do. Perhaps I > misread the TV weekly and got this all wrong (please don't post 100 > responses to that effect, have some bandwidth mercy!) and someone will > educate me. I'll work on my Gilda Radner "never mind" imitation just in > case. > > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > Rudy Leon PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:45:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: OT star trek question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer, >.....my favorite characters, that woman with the worm in her and all those dots on her neck, drat I can't remember her name, is gone from DS9. > Jadzilla Dax or something like that. > Evidently her "symbiont" or worm is back on the show in >another actor/host. I don't know the reason for her previous actor/host's >demise, at least in terms of the storylines -- did she die?> Not sure how they "offed" her. Havent been watching....but >but here's my real question: that >character recently got married, and I am wondering if this is a case of "if >you get some, you have to die", the rule we've discussed here before. That >is, here's a strong female character in a reasonably loving relationship, >so they kill her off.> No, not that ruthless. The actress Terry Farrell took the role somewhat reluctantly as I remember. She was not intending to stay long. She left the show to do other work which has become being a side character on the new Ted Danson sitcom "Becker". She runs the cafe he hangs out in. >If it were a case of the actor demanding too much money, presumably they >could just have had her "transferred" somewhere off show. Having the same >symbiont in another body is a fairly drastic thing to do.> Well not so drastic when you figure that the worm does move from host to host. What is drastic is that the host was still so young. Perhaps marriage did not suit her????? donna ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:33:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: <2098862@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Marina wrote >Concerning Eowyn, what he did to her made me mad the most. She was my >When I just started reading the Ring series (I read Hobbit and the first >two books of the Lord of The Ring back home, in Russian, at the age of >19, and the third book -- a few months ago, at the age of 24) it stroke me >that there was almost no female characters there altogether. When I took a college class in Tolkien, I wrote one paper on Pippen--Tolkien's most successful female character. My teacher, who fancies himself a Tolkien scholar, was not amused. But good writing and a solid "proof" will stymie the most humorless of academians. :-) Rebecca > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:29:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: <2102213@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:46 AM 11/7/98 CST, Anthea wrote: > >We're perhaps expecting a great deal of "cultural sensitivity" or "relativism" at a time when people tended to see things in black and white._ We had a salesman who would come into the office on a regular basis and tell me the worst jokes--racist, sexist--and my boss, who was a dear, sweet guy (but a "guy")always got his jollies from watching me silently burn. Well, one day this salesman managed to tell me a joke that was sexist AND genuinely funny. And when I wiped the tears of laughter from my eyes, I said, "Harry, for an old fart, you're a good guy." (My boss spit coffee into his keyboard--I got MY jollies from making him do spit-takes!) After that Harry never, ever told me a joke unless I told him one first--and I always had a naughty joke for him. For an old fart, Tolkien was a good guy. I can't read LOTR very often but I consider Tolkien a master and a mentor. His command of English and his craftsmanship as a writer humble me. His books are internally consistant. If he tells you that it took two weeks to get from point a to point b, he knew to the hour how long they were traveling. If he tells you the moon was full, you can bet that it will be full again twenty-eight days later. Middle Earth was a laboratory for his love of languages. He spent days translating text in and out of his elvish languages or dwarvish languages. The diaries in Moria existed. He created them--he even burned them to make them "authenitic". I come back often to his essay "On Fairy Stories." Three ideas that come back to me from time to time: 1) we consign to children literary traditions that no longer have value to us. In Tolkien's day it was fairy stories. These days it seems to be movie musicals. 2) "Secondary creation". Writers and artists are made a little more closely in the Creator's image, and we struggle to give shape to our own "secondary creations." Far from piddling our time away with writing, we strive to fulfill our highest nature. 3) "Eucatastrophe" I consider it the most important story idea Tolkien ever taught me. I observed it and first described in Jules Verne, but Tolkien articulated it for me: that stroke of grace or salvation that comes when all hope is lost. I don't like stories without grace and the hope of redemption and I don't write them. Hope this puts J.R.R. in a sharper perspective. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:52:20 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chelle Rogers Subject: Re: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I keep trying to sign off this list, but I keep getting a message saying I'm not subscribed. But I'm obviously getting the messages. Can anyone help me? I'm sure it's a great list, but I'm trying to cut back my email load. Thanks! -- Chelle Rogers castalia@rockisland.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:29:42 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: help In-Reply-To: <3647C684.FD66EE0@rockisland.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hiya, I used to get this list directly off of my local BBS, then my sysop got me to try eudora mail and it made things so much simpler, but when I tried to post to the list from eudora, I would get a return bounce saying I was not authorized to use that account...which was puzzling because I assumed eudora was just an extention from my mailbox...so I ended up sending a command to unsubscribe directly from the bbs, then okayed the command directly from the bbs, then resubscribed to the list again and since eudora was the main mailbox my replies started getting posted to the list again...are you using a email program where before you wrote your emails from a local bbs? or from someplace you used to get mail from directly? That could be why you are not getting a correct response. It took me over a week to figure out what was going on but was lucky the moderator of this list helped me a lot 8) Jo Ann At 08:52 PM 11/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >I keep trying to sign off this list, but I keep getting a message saying >I'm not subscribed. But I'm obviously getting the messages. Can >anyone help me? I'm sure it's a great list, but I'm trying to cut back >my email load. Thanks! >-- > >Chelle Rogers castalia@rockisland.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:45:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG snow queen (on-topic this time) In-Reply-To: <2106692@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:27 PM 11/9/98 CST, Jennifer wrote: >At 03:08 PM 11/08/98 -0800, Karen wrote: >> >>another thing i noticed about her writing style, and this is not a bad >>thing, is that she seemed to enjoy her tough-talking city dwelling >>characters the most (e.g. jerusha, tor, herne) and this gave the parts >>of the book a very american, hard-boiled flavor. part traditional space >>opera, part noir flick. interesting. > > >Yes, now that you mention it, it's almost as if those three characters >existed in a different story. It's probably been five years since I last read this book, and it is not holding up well. BZ just arrested Moon and I don't know how I am ever going to get through the end of this book. I am completely distracted by Herne. Please, whoever has the pipeline to Vinge: what was she thinking when she created this character, and how does he fit into the Snow Queen? Herne is the name of the Stag King, the dying and reborn Consort of the Goddess. The (admittedly dubious) book I have on Herne identifies him as Herne/Pan, which is an extremely interesting idea when you consider that Sparks choses the flute as his weapon. Herne is the predecessor of the Celtic God Cerennu (sp). The challenge is right out of the Golden Bough (and I seem to remember the death and the renewal of the Stag King in the Mists of Avalon). Whatever possessed Vinge to marry this myth to the Snow Queen? And how does it fit into Tiamat? Starbuck has to be an outworlder, but is this an outworlder myth laid over Tiamat culture? Is this Winter mythology? There is no given Son/Consort in the Summers' mythology. And while I am complaining, there is no grounding for this huge potlatch ceremony that dumps Winter, its rulers, and all its goods into the sea. I feel like we should have seen something along these lines when Moon gave up her old life to become a sibyl or when Sparks left to go to Carbuncle--this shedding of the old life, this detachment from possessions. And would somebody do me a favor and look up the mythological reference for "Tiamat" and tell me how THAT relates to the Snow Queen. Several people have commented on Sparks's passivity, but I think to paraphrase Jessica Rabbit, "he's not passive, he's just written that way." He doesn't sit on the beach and become a bum when Moon leaves; he picks himself up, and he goes off to find his heritage. He resists Arienrhod until Moon seems hopelessly lost. He figures out the offworld technology. He figures out how the Hall of Winds works; he challenges Herne and picks the right weapon--he doesn't have the killer instinct and Arienrhod cheats at the end--but he is actively going about his business. He is depressed. Almost everybody in the book is depressed, struggling against this fin de siecle malaise (lit teachers, have mercy on me), the end of Winter and the closing of the Gate. Much of the "story" happens off stage. For example, we only see Sparks'first mer hunt in flashback. We never get his impressions--the blasphemy, the thrashing mers, the bodies--up close and personal. And while I am mentioning the mers--are there any characters in this book more passive, more hapless, more lambs-to-the-slaughter than the mers? I'm sorry. They fill me with rage. They are supposed to be intelligent. In a MILLENIUM, couldn't some of the less esthetically refined mers leave off with their singing and their dancing and said, "Knock it off with the hunting"? Maybe I'm guilty of speciesism here, but it seems to me that one sign of intelligence should be the ability to organize your environment, to recognize your enemies and defend yourself. At the very least, to protest your own destruction in the face of your enemies. I'm really raging against God with this last paragraph. If whales are REALLY an intelligent species, why don't they blockade harbors and sing "Give pods a chance'? Why don't dolphins abduct sufers and make them learn to jump through hoops? Why don't they hijack Carnival Cruise ships and demand to speak to Kathy Lee? God laughs at my childish presumptions... Well, I've strayed a little bit off topic. Don't hurt me too much... Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:24:21 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: reading autobiography Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9 Nov 98, at 14:58, Candioglos, Sandy wrote: > This is about the third person I've seen who has said that at least one of > their parents was a teacher. Both of mine taught (until I was born, then > my mom quit); my dad just retired from teaching 7th grade Art/Tech > Drawing/geography/history a year ago. My boyfriend, who reads even more > voraciously than I do, has a professor for a father. I wonder what > proportion of really avid readers have parents who were either teachers or > librarians? I've enjoyed these wallows in nostalgia and since I've only got the choice of doing the same or finishing Peter Conrad's _Modern times, modern places_, I'm going to do the same. Michael's and my fathers are soldiers (_Royal Engineers _ & _The Parachute Regiment_) turned entrepreneur who've been friends and partners since their service in Aden so our families have lived within 100m since before we were born. My mother was trained as a teacher, but never practised and now owns a chain of "beauty salons"; Mike's mother is a solicitor (US = lawyer). Most of Mike's and my youth was spent near Dublin (Ireland) although we were born in the same hospital in Devon 8h 22m apart. Our parents, who were/are voracious, omnivorous readers, took educating their children *very* seriously. "Education" was the arts, music and literature - not being plonked in front of an educational programme on TV! In practise that meant art lessons, amateur dramatics, music and piano lessons, and learning to read early and then reading everything available - the classics, any books we could beg, borrow or at a pinch buy, and most importantly the newspapers. And reading aloud - our parents were really keen on that and over the years Mike and I have had endless pleasure reading to each other. And putting on plays - something else our parents were dead keen on us doing - we used to write out and act in our own plays - usually we had enough actors but sometimes we had to play multiple parts - once I had to play Rebecca, Brian de Bois Guilbert and Cedric the Saxon from _Ivanhoe_ (it wasn't easy especially when two were on stage at once). Our local library was strongly supported by the small industries that'd started growing up in the area and, for its size, it was very well-stocked. The librarian was (still is) a warm, wonderful person - a former nun (jobs for former nuns were/are severely restricted by the local Church's hostility and many had to become teachers or librarians). The library in those days was a welcoming place where we could go when we wanted a hot drink in winter or even if we just wanted someone to talk to. But to get back on topic: when I was 9, I came into sf/f via Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series, two books of which we found in the library. To someone used to the classics and cuurent novels, _The Princess of Mars_ was a revelation and I can't think of a better introduction to the genre. The two books available were _The Princess of Mars and _The Warlord of Mars_ but even so they opened up a whole new world. As soon as he realised that the Martians walked around naked, Mike was anxious to do a play wearing authentic costumes, but he couldn't get any takers . AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ______________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:34:01 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: <024201be0c5c$a3623740$14b11b26@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jadzia Dax -- she was "accidentally" murdered by that Cadasian guy who used to live at the station for a while (at least I think it was him, I don't watch DS9 as often anymore). He was trying to release one of the Bajoran gods in order to close the wormhole, which was supposed to somehow weaken the defense of the Federation. Dax was in that praying place, praying for a baby, when he transported himself to the altar and zapped her before realizing who it was. He was sorry later, but she was dead. I did not know it was a worm inside her. I thought they had some kind of immortal soul that goes from one "carrier" to another. In any case, Jadzia Dax died -- they put her in a coffin and the whole thing -- so I'm not sure when the worm had a chance to transfer to anyone else. Later, all males of the station went to some killing mission "on her behalf" and blew up several enemy space ships. I did not really understand why it was supposed to make her proud, but that's what they kept saying. That was the last episode of the season, I believe (I watched it as a re-run). The next one, with a new Dax arriving, I think was kind of psychodelic. Commander Sysco kept having visions of himself in what looked like a 20th century mental hospital, writing all that Deep Space Nine story on the walls of his room, with a doctor trying to convince him to forget all those fantasies. That was truly strange. I was wondering if they were actually going to have the whole series turn out to be a delusion of a madman. However, it all ended well, and those hospital visions were explained as hallucinations. I have not seen any other episodes after that so I don't know what happened later. But if that madhouse part was any indication, it seems like the show creators decided to experiment and we are up for surprises. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:06:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've always had ambiguous feelings about Leguin. On the one hand, she's an absolutely luminous prose stylist. And about some aspects of character, she's spot-on. OTOH, at other things (many types of characters, especially anything involving the emotional dynamics of violent revolution, war or soldiers) she's _terrible_, in a sort of smug upper-middle-class-academic way that reeks of unexamined assumptions. And she _insists_ on trying to use those things and settings and aspects in her work, which weakens it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:12:33 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: Family Tree In-Reply-To: <199811070821.DAA07204@apocalypse.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, ME Hunter wrote: > And, finally, regarding Sherri Tepper...I think she's a very good > storyteller and writes very engagingly. I have, however, grown quite tired > of the aliens-secretly-eating-humans plot and I occasionally feel really > soiled by the anti-male politics she draws me into. I mean, sure, as I'm > reading I'm thinking "Yeah! Get rid of the men!" but when I'm done I think > "How would I respond to a book that suggested eliminating women from human > society, or at least breeding out of women the traits that are inconvenient > and incomprehensible to men?" I enjoyed _Family Tree_, largely because it > was mostly free of these politics, replacing them with environmentalism, but > I didn't find any of her characters as engaging as Marjorie Westriding or > Sam. I know what you mean. I was actually very disappointed with *The Family Tree* because it was so one-dimensional. There was no moral dilemma to ponder, as there were in the books that engaged me more, like *Grass* and *Gate to Women's Country*. I agree that she's an excellent story-teller, but I've begun borrowing her books from the library instead of automatically buying them. How did people feel about the whole guilt plot at the end of *The Family Tree*? It seemed to me that it was a rather overdone. Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university The Bible has 6 admonishments against homosexuality and over 350 admonishments against heterosexuality. It's not that God loves the heterosexuals less; it's just that they need more supervision. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:13:02 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/98 9:36:56 AM Mountain Standard Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << What's racist and sexist in Tolkien is his depiction of (in no particular order): the men of far Harad, the Easterlings and Southerlings, who are cruel and ignorant and non-white -- well, no. Many of them are cruel but sophisticated. They're also shown as brave and stubborn, but led into fighting on the wrong side by bad leaders. And most of them aren't "non-white", unless you put Arabs or Turks in that category. The most "racist" thing about LOTR is the treatment of orcs and trolls. >very much like British ideas of colonial peoples. -- actually, they're based more on European folk-memories and tales of invading peoples like the Ottoman Turks, the Mongols, and the long wars against Islam. >his stereotypes of Dwarves and Elves and their languages, which are rooted, I think, in ideas about Eastern Europeans and Jews; -- no, they're you are completely off. The sources are Norse and Celtic mythology, straight up. The elves are a mixture of the _alfar_ of the Sagas and the Daanan Sidhe; the dwarves are standard Norse-Germanic fairytale stuff. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:44:06 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the subject of what Tolkien modelled the overall pattern of the _Lord of the Rings_: he himself in the Foreword to the 1968 "new one volume paperback edition" (Unwin Paperback) SPECIFICALLY denies any "allegorical or contemporary significance whatsoever". Some other words he used were "As for any inner meaning or 'message", it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topic". This is something I should have pointed out up front *before* I made my comments about "Russians" etc. I think this edition is among the most widely sold so if anyone can get hold of a copy, it's well worth reading the Foreword even if only for the poignant comment he makes on the death of all but one of his close friends during the Great War. Needless to say, I don't believe that many of the huge number of amateur and "professional" analysts of his work take much notice of his pious protestations. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) _________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:08:32 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-09 20:29:54 EST, you write: << Had anyone else read _Mrs Pickerel Goes to Mars_? I would like to know who the author was, and I can't find the title on any internet book searches :-( Mrs Pickerel was a handy widow-type older lady who always carried a magnetic hammer in her apron...>> Please! MISS Pickerell, a happily single older woman of adventurous spirit. The author is Ellen MacGregor. I really liked the early books, Miss Pickerell Goes to the Moon, to the Arctic, on a Dig--- but especially Miss Pickerell and the Geiger Counter. I think they're all out of print now, though. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:14:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: star trek question In-Reply-To: <19981110030230653.AAB333.309@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No I think what the rule is: "actress wants more money/storylines- so shes on the new show "Becker." Sometimes actors agree to be killed off-that way they dont (usually) come back. She was killed by a rogue wormhole alien who had inhabited Gul Dukat if you remember that character. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > Hit the delete button now if you don't want to discuss TV SF (star trek). > > I have been neglecting to watch the various flavors of ST recently but I > notice that this season one of my favorite characters, that woman with the > worm in her and all those dots on her neck, drat I can't remember her name, > is gone from DS9. Evidently her "symbiont" or worm is back on the show in > another actor/host. I don't know the reason for her previous actor/host's > demise, at least in terms of the storylines -- did she die? Presumably I > could read all about this on the web, but here's my real question: that > character recently got married, and I am wondering if this is a case of "if > you get some, you have to die", the rule we've discussed here before. That > is, here's a strong female character in a reasonably loving relationship, > so they kill her off. > > If it were a case of the actor demanding too much money, presumably they > could just have had her "transferred" somewhere off show. Having the same > symbiont in another body is a fairly drastic thing to do. Perhaps I > misread the TV weekly and got this all wrong (please don't post 100 > responses to that effect, have some bandwidth mercy!) and someone will > educate me. I'll work on my Gilda Radner "never mind" imitation just in case. > > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:15:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981109203303.00784e70@flink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That actually would be interesting to read! Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Rebecca wrote: > >Marina wrote > > >Concerning Eowyn, what he did to her made me mad the most. She was my > >When I just started reading the Ring series (I read Hobbit and the first > >two books of the Lord of The Ring back home, in Russian, at the age of > >19, and the third book -- a few months ago, at the age of 24) it stroke me > >that there was almost no female characters there altogether. > > When I took a college class in Tolkien, I wrote one paper on > Pippen--Tolkien's most successful female character. My teacher, who > fancies himself a Tolkien scholar, was not amused. But good writing and a > solid "proof" will stymie the most humorless of academians. :-) > > Rebecca > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:21:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Exactly--it is mainly taken from Norse mythology, which as I recall, rarely had non-white people in the storylines and usually had monsters who usually didnt speak or spoke badly. How that is to connect to anything living or dead is beyond me! If you recall he was in WWI not WWII so I think you can scratch out any Nazi-like sentiment on the part of Tolkein. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 11/5/98 9:36:56 AM Mountain Standard Time, > JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: > > << What's racist and sexist in Tolkien is his depiction of (in no particular > order): the men of far Harad, the Easterlings and Southerlings, who are cruel > and ignorant and non-white > > -- well, no. Many of them are cruel but sophisticated. They're also shown as > brave and stubborn, but led into fighting on the wrong side by bad leaders. > And most of them aren't "non-white", unless you put Arabs or Turks in that > category. > > The most "racist" thing about LOTR is the treatment of orcs and trolls. > > >very much like British ideas of colonial peoples. > > -- actually, they're based more on European folk-memories and tales of > invading peoples like the Ottoman Turks, the Mongols, and the long wars > against Islam. > > >his stereotypes of Dwarves and Elves and their languages, which are rooted, I > think, in ideas about Eastern Europeans and Jews; > > -- no, they're you are completely off. The sources are Norse and Celtic > mythology, straight up. The elves are a mixture of the _alfar_ of the Sagas > and the Daanan Sidhe; the dwarves are standard Norse-Germanic fairytale stuff. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:52:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sutliff Sanders Subject: Re: reading autobiography Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:23 PM 11/9/98 EST, you wrote: >Robin reminded me -- had forgotten the Albert Payson Terhune books -- Lad, A >Dog etc... I read them all and wept buckets. Also Beautiful Joe. Anyone >remember that one? Pheobe, Here's one to make you grin. Yes, I remember _Beautiful Joe. It was written by a woman whose last name was Saunders. The spine, therefore, said "Beautiful Joe Saunders." yours, Joe Sanders ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:46:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sarah Simpson Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" In-Reply-To: <364798DD.9F92F79D@kdn0.attnet.or.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm an interlibrary loan librarian. OCLC (online catalog) says Miss Pickerell Goes to Mars was written by Ellen MacGregor. Sarah At 10:37 AM 11/10/98 +0900, you wrote: >Had anyone else read _Mrs Pickerel Goes to Mars_? I would like to know >who the author was, and I can't find the title on any internet book >searches :-( > >It was definitely my first sf book, featuring a rocket built in the >pasture of Mrs Pickerel's beloved pet cow for Mr Haggerty(?), >scientist. I loved the description of how he was such a brilliant >person when it came to scientific facts, but since his brain was filled >with that, it had no room for anything else; he carried a huge briefcase >filled with scraps of paper upon which he had written persons' names, >appointments, that sort of thing. Mrs Pickerel was a handy widow-type >older lady who always carried a magnetic hammer in her apron... She >winds up stowing away in the rocket on its trip to Mars, and her hammer >features prominently in messing up the instrumentation. > >JoAnn >sitehund@kdn0.attnet.or.jp > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:03:58 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Robert Barrett 11/09 11:44 AM >>> Sic scribit Jane Franklin: (I'm a pretty sick scribit today, all right. Everyone should be glad they don't really know me, because you'd all get this wretched cold. And yes, I do know what sic scribit really means... :) ) I believe Tolkien explicitly denied that LOTR was meant simply as an allegory or about the USSR--I think it's in one of the intros he wrote. In any case, full understanding of the evils of Stalin only trickled into public consciousness in the early 1930s, I believe. And in WWII, the USSR was very popular in the West, because they were fighting Hitler. (I've just been reading Doris Lessing on this very topic.) Not that this neccessarily means anything re Tolkien, but it's worth noting. Although I am impressed that someone can use the phrase "trouble the patriarchal boundaries" while still sounding plausible, I think that Tolkien's idea was more about people who don't fit in as a general thing, rather than as a specific trouble to the patriarchy. That is, I'd see troubling as a subset of not fitting in. And I just realized I am really, really sick after all and must go lie down...waves of dizziness overcome me....kind of nice. I'll try to follow this up with actual evidence later.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:24:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: BDG snow queen (on-topic this time) In-Reply-To: <19981110030230653.AAD333.309@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > >another thing i noticed about her writing style, and this is not a bad > >thing, is that she seemed to enjoy her tough-talking city dwelling > >characters the most (e.g. jerusha, tor, herne) and this gave the parts > >of the book a very american, hard-boiled flavor. part traditional space > >opera, part noir flick. interesting. > > > Yes, now that you mention it, it's almost as if those three characters > existed in a different story. Were there analogues for them in the Snow > Queen fairy tale? Remember the Little Robber Girl? I always liked her better than the other protagonists.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:50:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: star trek question Comments: cc: jkrauel@ACTIONEER.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jennifer, what I've "heard" is Terry Farrell, the actress who played Jadzia Dax, wanted to "spread her wings", and now has a role on the new Ted Danson series. Her character was killed off by having Gul Dukat, the insane Cardassian leader whose daughter Zyel was slain by an underling, teleport into the Bajoran shrine on DS-9 to steal the orb of the prophets while Dax was there praying to bear Worf a child, and he killed her when she tried to stop him. The symbiont was saved and rehoused in Ezree Dax, the perky little counselor-in-training. HTH. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 "That All May Read!" My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them! >>> Jennifer Krauel 11/09 8:40 PM >>> Hit the delete button now if you don't want to discuss TV SF (star trek). I have been neglecting to watch the various flavors of ST recently but I notice that this season one of my favorite characters, that woman with the worm in her and all those dots on her neck, drat I can't remember her name, is gone from DS9. Evidently her "symbiont" or worm is back on the show in another actor/host. I don't know the reason for her previous actor/host's demise, at least in terms of the storylines -- did she die? Presumably I could read all about this on the web, but here's my real question: that character recently got married, and I am wondering if this is a case of "if you get some, you have to die", the rule we've discussed here before. That is, here's a strong female character in a reasonably loving relationship, so they kill her off. If it were a case of the actor demanding too much money, presumably they could just have had her "transferred" somewhere off show. Having the same symbiont in another body is a fairly drastic thing to do. Perhaps I misread the TV weekly and got this all wrong (please don't post 100 responses to that effect, have some bandwidth mercy!) and someone will educate me. I'll work on my Gilda Radner "never mind" imitation just in case. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:18:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The point of all the allegations about Tolkien, I think, was not that he was not that he was drawing literally from images of colonial peoples or whatever, but that his interpretations of European mythology were shaped by his attitudes towards non-whites, colonial people, women, Jews, etc. However much we may want to believe it, Tolkien could not channel the spirit of the past to write down pure European folk myth. He had to pick and chose and interpret, and no matter how wonderful a person he was in his private life, or how many laudable sentiments he espoused (or laudible spouses he espoused, for that matter) he was limited by his character, as are we all. How anyone can read the descriptions of the crazed Easterlings (or possibly Southrons)--who are the only black people in the book, and who are described with rolling white eyes and red mouths--and not realize that Tolkien had some issues with race is beyond me. Also, I don't think anyone said Tolkien shared ideas WITH Hitler. (I don't know how that got in there) The question was whether LOTR was in part an allegory of the struggle AGAINST Hitler. Maybe part of this problem is that we use one word, "racism", to describe a whole bunch of attitudes about race, all perhaps imperfect but some far far worse than others. I don't think most of us place Tolkien in a league with Jesse Helms. I myself love Tolkien, and have single handedly read to pieces two paperback sets. But I do not believe that anyone, anywhere, somehow writes "purely" with none of their underlying attitudes coming through. Look at all the books of modernized fairy tales--you can interpret folk myth any old way you like. I think--as I said in anther post--that Tolkien can be read simultaneously as racist and anti-racist, sexist and anti-sexist. You can get a lot from Tolkien, which is one of the indications that LOTR is a great trilogy. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:02:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Bujold and feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/98 11:48:24 AM Mountain Standard Time, m_stanton@POSTMASTER.CO.UK writes: << I've just finished the 3 excellent _Draka_ series books. -- there's a fourth, "Drakon", by the way... 8-). For a change of tone, there's my latest, "Island in the Sea of Time". >Did I detect a hint in _Marching..._ of H A L Fisher's "If Napoleon had escaped to America" (from Squires' 1932 _If it happened otherwise_)? -- only subliminally; it's been a _long_ time since I read that. >Also enjoyed _The city who fought_ which I thought was by far the best of McCaffrey's 'body in a bottle' universe. -- that was amusing to do. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:35:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: OT star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: from "Marina" at Nov 10, 98 01:34:01 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marina sez: > Jadzia Dax -- she was "accidentally" murdered by that Cadasian guy who > used to live at the station for a while (at least I think it was him, I > don't watch DS9 as often anymore). He was trying to release one of the [snip] Yup. Terry Farrell (sp?) decided she wanted to leave the series. She was upset that the decision was made to kill Jadzia off. There was an article about her leaving in an issue of TV Guide a few months ago. IMHO Jadzia was one of the best female charcters on tv. She was competent, strong (physically and mentally) and also had a romantic relationship with Worf that was based on respect and love. > I did not know it was a worm inside her. I thought they had some kind of > immortal soul that goes from one "carrier" to another. In any case, > Jadzia Dax died -- they put her in a coffin and the whole thing -- so I'm > not sure when the worm had a chance to transfer to anyone else. Later, > all males of the station went to some killing mission "on her behalf" and > blew up several enemy space ships. I did not really understand why it was > supposed to make her proud, but that's what they kept saying. > Jadzia was something like the ninth host for the Dax symbiont. The new host is Esme so her name is now Esme Dax. There was an attempt to get the Dax symbiont back to the Trill, that is what the race of symbionts and hosts is called, homeworld but the symbiont couldn't wait and was transferred to Esme without the usual preparation. Esme might turn out to be an interesting character. Right now she is a bit overwhelmed by the memories of the Dax symbiont and the previous hosts but she has a spunky sense of self that might make her just as interesting as Jadzia. Since Jadzia was married to Worf, a Klingon, her friends went on a mission to insure that her spirit would go to the Klingon warrior heaven. > That was the last episode of the season, I believe (I watched it as a > re-run). The next one, with a new Dax arriving, I think was kind of > psychodelic. Commander Sysco kept having visions of himself in what > looked like a 20th century mental hospital, writing all that Deep Space [snip] This was a "flashback" to the ep when Cmr. Sisko was sent back to the 1950's and was a sf author. This was the ep which dealt with racism and several folks mentioned how good an ep it was. 'Ta Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:39:30 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/98 7:37:19 AM Mountain Standard Time, Robin_Reid@TAMU- COMMERCE.EDU writes: << The nature vs. nurture debate has not been resolved--the extent to which culture modifies "natural" behaviors is still being debated. >> -- true. It's my own private theory that men are less behaviorally flexible than women, for what it's worth. (In fact, if you list the physical characteristics that separate humans from our close chimp and bonobo relatives, or from earlier hominids -- neoteny, reduced body hair, gracile build, smaller brow ridges, etc. -- you find an interesting parallel to the differences between the sexes.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:42:39 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/6/98 9:49:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, levymm@UWEC.EDU writes: << The fourth book of Earthsea, Tehanu, is in part a specific attempt to revision that niverse in more consciously feminist terms. >> -- I found that extremely odd. The heroine decides not to go to university (in effect), and this is feminist? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:36:20 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG snow queen (on-topic this time) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/9/98 10:37:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, hathor@FLINK.COM writes: << God laughs at my childish presumptions... >> Nah. She likes it. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:56:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: <199811101635.LAA26038@galileo.cris.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I never really got to like Dax, for some reason. I had this impression that they did not really know what to do with her, so she was kind of bouncing from acutely feminine to being "one of the guys". I don't know if I can explain it well, but it seemed to me that her character was defined through her relationships with men -- Worf in love with Jadzia, Dr. Beshire in love with Jadzia, Quark adoring Jadzia, Jadzia playing table games with Sysco and winning, Jadzia wrestling with Worf and winning, and so on. I don't remember one single episode when she had to work on some project or deal with some problem independently, without it being tied up to her relationship with one of male characters. Even when she turned out to be better and stronger than the guy, she was never doing anything by herself and without all that humongous volume of men's sentiments towards her taking up almost more time than the action itself. Of course, all of this is the fault of the show creators rather than the actress who played her, or the character herself. However, Dax reminded me of Y.T. from that intellectually challenged _Snow Crash_ -- despite her strength, spirit, etc. her main purpose was to serve as the object of male character's affection, and even her remarkable personal qualities often served as nothing more that the "explanation" of that affection. A more "progressive" excuse than admiration based solely on her looks would be, I guess, but still the same thing. Just think about this -- can you imagine the heroic deeds of Sysco, for instance, presented almost exclusevely through the adoration of female characters those deeds cause? Like, Kira and Keiko spending half of the show's time (in almost every episode) brooding about how strong, intelligent, and generally cool Sysco is and how sad it is that he does not love them back. Does not sound exciting, does it? I wonder where _men_ get the idea that their unanswered sentiments are of so much interest to everyone? (As they say, "Get yourself a new haircut and get over it," - someone should have told that to Beshire and the gang). Anyway. I'm pretty sure that there are a few list members for whom Star Trek is another Bible that's above questioning, and that they are going to be pissed. However, in my humble opinion, that Dax was not such a great character, and I'm not going to miss her. Hopefully, the next one will do something heroic even when no men are around to be impressed, and will (maybe) become something more than a glorified sidekick. The best female character in Star Trek, IMHO, was Ro Laren from the last few episodes of the New Generation. That woman rocked. In DS9 my favorite is Major Kira. I loved that part when she was playing chicken with the female general (I'm blanking out on names, but she belonged to that race with no emotions and purely logical thinking), and won. It was the episode where Kira took over Sysco's place after he resigned (because of the closure of wormhole and Dax's death) so she had to deal with the military crisis that developed over the disagreement between the allies. And she handled it perfectly. Kira is a real person. She's not the "best buddy" of every male on the station, nor the object of their affection, because that absolutely does not matter to who she is. She exists by herself, and the feelings of all those men towards her are irrelevant. I hope she won't get killed by some stray god as soon as she and the Changeling (name?) really get it on. My two cents. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:24:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 11/6/98 9:49:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, levymm@UWEC.EDU > writes: > > << The fourth book of Earthsea, Tehanu, is in part a specific attempt to > revision that niverse in more consciously feminist terms. >> > > > -- I found that extremely odd. The heroine decides not to go to university > (in effect), and this is feminist? > I haven't read the book since it came out so my memory is a bit vague, but the fact that a female protagonist makes what might in some ways be seen as a bad choice has very little to do with whether or not a story is feminist. Of more relevance would be the reasons why she made the choice, right or wrong, and how that choice effected the rest of her life. Or so it seems to me. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:18:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > -- I found that extremely odd. The heroine decides not to go to university > (in effect), and this is feminist? To which Mike Levy replied that that in itself might not be a good measure of whether the story is feminist or not. I'd like to add that IMO, the implication that she would _have_ to go to university (in effect) would reduce her choices and make the book less feminist. As Mike said, it's the reasoning that matters. University is not always the best choice for people--even intelligent or brilliant people. -allen -- Allen Briggs - briggs@ninthwonder.com Try free *nix: http://www.netbsd.org/, http://www.freebsd.org/, http://www.linux.org/, http://www.openbsd.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:30:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S.M. Stirling wrote: > It's my own private theory that men are less behaviorally flexible > than women, for what it's worth. > > (In fact, if you list the physical characteristics that separate > humans from our close chimp and bonobo relatives, or from earlier > hominids -- neoteny, reduced body hair, gracile build, smaller brow > ridges, etc. -- you find an interesting parallel to the differences > between the sexes.) This reminds me of Monty Python's *Holy Grail* and the witch-burning scene. The Person in Charge asks, "How do you know that she is a witch?" and one of the crowd blurts out, "She looks like one!" Not to be inflammatory (though I suppose it is inevitable), but others have used this sort of reasoning to claim that Africans are evolutionarily closer to chimps than white people are. A very good critique can be found in Stephen Jay Gould's *The Mismeasure of Man*. (As an aside, Gould knowingly used this title, which some have interpreted as sexist, to show that the study of intelligence, anatomy, etc. has been historically skewed toward the male of the species.) -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:26:54 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: (BDG) If mers were REALLY intelligent... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981110004526.01001174@flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:45 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Rebecca wrote a bunch of stuff I'm deleting except this part: >I'm really raging against God with this last paragraph. If whales are >REALLY an intelligent species, why don't they blockade harbors and sing >"Give pods a chance'? Why don't dolphins abduct sufers and make them learn >to jump through hoops? Why don't they hijack Carnival Cruise ships and >demand to speak to Kathy Lee? The last time I went to see a "sea world"-style show, you know the kind with the dancing dolphins, I survived by fantasizing just this kind of thing. Only it seemed to me that the special thing that humans have is opposable thumbs. So the exhibit showcasing humans would have someone come out of a cage, tie a knot in a string and then untie it (to wild applause), and get a hot dog or something as a treat then be forced back into the cage until the next showing. While reading Snow Queen I just imagined mers as dolphins. The "hounds" were much more interesting, I thought, and it was really a nice touch to have one of the "good" alien characters be of the same species. On a related note, did anyone else guess the truth about the mers and the location of "deep thought" - oh sorry, wrong story, I mean the ancient super computer? I didn't, but I loved the way that tied so many elements of the story together, and it seemed so obvious after the fact that I felt a little dense to not have figured it out myself. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:36:22 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: OT star trek question In-Reply-To: <024201be0c5c$a3623740$14b11b26@donna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:45 PM 11/09/98 -0500, Donna wrote: >>but here's my real question: that >>character recently got married, and I am wondering if this is a case of "if >>you get some, you have to die", the rule we've discussed here before. That >>is, here's a strong female character in a reasonably loving relationship, >>so they kill her off.> > >No, not that ruthless. The actress Terry Farrell took the role somewhat reluctantly as I remember. She was not intending to stay >long. She left the show to do other work which has become being a side character on the new Ted Danson sitcom "Becker". She runs the >cafe he hangs out in. Thanks Donna and others for filling in the plot details, and the tolerance of the list for this digression. Regardless of the reason the actor left the show, and regardless of the way her character was "killed", my suspicions were correct: here's a strong female character (Marina's valid complaints aside) who got some, then was killed. If it were a male character, they would just have transferred him to another part of the galaxy and brought him back for a reunion episode during ratings week. Off hand I can't remember if the other strong female characters killed off in the various ST shows (Ro Laren, Tasha Yar, Worf's previous romantic interest, etc.) followed the same rule. I sure wish the future weren't such a dangerous place for women who want to have sex! Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:44:16 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/10/98 12:34:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, jdawley@TOGETHER.NET writes: << Stephen Jay Gould's *The Mismeasure of Man*. >> Has anyone read Carol Travis (?) book, "The Mismeasure of Woman" recently? I read it ages ago and forget if it was any good. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:21:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robert Barrett Subject: Re: OT star trek question In-Reply-To: <19981110214208420.AAB239.231@jennifer.actioneer.com> from "Jennifer Krauel" at Nov 10, 98 01:36:22 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sic scribit Jennifer Krauel: > > Thanks Donna and others for filling in the plot details, and the tolerance > of the list for this digression. > > Regardless of the reason the actor left the show, and regardless of the way > her character was "killed", my suspicions were correct: here's a strong > female character (Marina's valid complaints aside) who got some, then was > killed. If it were a male character, they would just have transferred him > to another part of the galaxy and brought him back for a reunion episode > during ratings week. > > Off hand I can't remember if the other strong female characters killed off > in the various ST shows (Ro Laren, Tasha Yar, Worf's previous romantic > interest, etc.) followed the same rule. I sure wish the future weren't > such a dangerous place for women who want to have sex! > I believe that Rho Laren is still alive and working for the Macquis along the Cardassian border. Have we ever seen her since that her last Next Gen appearance? I'd also want to put some quotation remarks about Tasha Yar's name on that list. She did indeed find out how fully functional Data was during the second episode of 1st season, but her death in "Skin of Evil" came several months later. There isn't the direct causal or at least immediately implied link between sex and death in her case that we see in the other two. Jadzia is killed while praying for a Klingon-Trill child (which, in addition to its link to the "sexual woman dies" topos, takes part in the "retiring partner/about-to-be-a-parent partner" action movie topos); Worf's first lover gets killed by his enemy Duras right after she shows up with Alexander, her unnannounced son with Worf. Hmmm . . . is it sex or motherhood that gets you killed on Star Trek? :) That said, I agree that the Bajoran women (Kira, Rho, and several others) do seem to be the most realized feminist characters in the Star Trek universe (I don't watch Voyager, so I'll leave Janeway, Belana, and 7 of 9 for others to critique/defend). Best, Rob -- Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbarrett@dept.english.upenn.edu * World Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * "Christmas is carnage!" Ferdinand the Duck Who Thinks He's a Rooster, *Babe* (1995) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:03:39 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: reading autobiography Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-09 17:59:25 EST, you write: << I wonder what proportion of really avid readers have parents who were either teachers or librarians >> Neither of parents were teachers or librarians (my mother did some teaching when I was in high school, but it was part-time job at a small college); however, my grandmother was an english teacher. I think she gave my mother her love of reading, and then my mother passed it on to me and my sister. My sister had more trouble with it because she has a form of dyslexia, but no one "discovered" that until she was in college. My sister struggled with reading until she found the Star Trek books (sometime during junior/high school) and then she found a way to overcome the dyslexia because she wanted to read the stories so badly! (It was only later in college that someone figured out that her struggle with reading was dyslexia, by then she'd already found a way to overcome it--thanks be to Star Trek!) Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:03:35 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft" Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-08 16:59:54 EST, you write: << It's true, I can't really think of ANY science fiction books that even mention voting as a political process (except for Heinlein's *Starship Troopers* which presents a very weird vision of democracy). >> "Fair New World" (sorry can't remember the author right now, and the book's upstairs, and I'm too laxy to go upstairs and fetch it) has a society that votes, but you have to take a test before the vote to see how informed on the specific issue you are. Everyone is entitled to vote; however, the more informed you are the more weight your vote carries. Interesting premise. It also has an interesting way of electing people to office. The society believes that anyone who actually wants to run for political office is obviously a few bricks shy of a full load and thus unqualified to hold office. All nominees for office are submitted by other people, then the nominees run and "anti-campaign"--basically telling the voters why they shouldn't vote for them and why they should vote for their opponemt. The one who makes people think they least want the job is the one who elected (figuring the person who leasts wants the job is leasy likely to be a power-hungry tyrant type). Again, interesting. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" In-Reply-To: <364798DD.9F92F79D@kdn0.attnet.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII JoAnn wrote: "Had anyone else read _Mrs Pickerel Goes to Mars_? I would like to know who the author was, and I can't find the title on any internet book searches :-( Just looked at our library catalog and it took me to the index...Miss Pickerell...written by Ellen MacGregor. Great books. JB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:10:25 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:56 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Marina wrote: >I never really got to like Dax, for some reason. (snip).. >I don't remember one single episode when she had >to work on some project or deal with some problem independently, without >it being tied up to her relationship with one of male characters. >Kira is a real person. She's not the "best buddy" of every male >on the station, nor the object of their affection, because that absolutely >does not matter to who she is. I agree Marina, Dax often appeared wimpish to me and Kira a much stronger and more independent, dynamic character. Many of the minor Bajoran women characters were portrayed this way, even the original Kai..and I perceived hints throughout the DS9 series, that the strength and independence of Bajoran women compared to all other races, was due to their long history of equal participation under Cardassian occupation. Also, I was often disappointed with portrayals of relationships between women characters. They never seem to develop true friendships for example, and are rarely colleagues in a major plot-thread. In any scenes where Dax and Kira were relating to each other, it was nearly always Dax teaching Kira some *feminine* trait, like how to dress, flirt or have fun 'girl-style' on the holiday planet Riza. They rarely work together, nor do you see them saving each other's lives etc. In an episode where Worf and Dax were sent to rescue an important Cardassian traitor, Dax is injured and Worf causes the mission to fail in order to save Dax's life. At the time I wondered how the story would have turned out, if Kira and Dax had gone together on that sort of mission. In Voyager, the strong women are often in conflict - Bellana, Janeway and 7-of-9 developed relationships of mutual respect, (for want of a better word) after a period of conflict and distrust, but they don't develop friendships the way male characters do, and they are rarely portrayed as 'comrades-in-arms' saving each other's lives etc. One of the things I enjoy about Klingon culture for example, is that Klingon women are often portrayed as working, fighting, and playing together with or without their own males. Other thing I've noticed is that strong independent women characters, if they have relationships at all that are not doomed to failure, (Kira's early relationship with the Bajoran politician in DS9 was doomed to failure for example).. it tends to be with non-human males, or males not of their own species etc. Its like - no "real man" can cope with having a strong woman as a lover. Julieanne jalc@ozemail.com.au ________________________________________________________________________ | | | ERROR! General Protection Fault in REALITY.SYS | | -Reality.sys file CORRUPTED!- | | | | Reboot the UNIVERSE to Correct | | | |_______________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:51:10 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f In-Reply-To: <34bf6e84.3648c647@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:03 PM 11/10/98 EST, Tanya wrote: > "Fair New World" (snip) has a society that >votes, but you have to take a test before the vote to see how informed on the >specific issue you are. Everyone is entitled to vote; however, the more >informed you are the more weight your vote carries. Interesting premise. Janet Morris's Kerrion Consortium trilogy, _Dream Dancer_, _Cruiser Dreams_ and _Earth Dreams_ also makes mention of a kind-of democratic voting system. Its only in passzing though, and is not a main feature of the story. The main girl character in the first book mentions the hard-work necessary in order to gain voting and citizenship rights and privileges. Adult majority was given at age 16 for everyone, but in order for you to be able to vote, or for your vote to carry any weight, there were long hours of study involved and you needed to pass exams and become well-informed to gain a quarter-vote, and work up the levels and so on. Everyone had free access to the information and could study at their own pace, in their own time, but if you weren't interested or motivated to go through all that, then voting and citizenship were not granted automatically. In other words it had to be *earned*. Nonetheless, the system was portrayed as a corrupt one. There was also an attitude of recognition of the _Fatal Flaw of Democracy_: "the concept of *majority rule* in democratic systems carries within it a Fatal Flaw, in that the majority can be wrong." Julieanne jalc@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:46:08 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111111025.007c1a70@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Julieanne wrote: [snip] > Other thing I've noticed is that strong independent women characters, if > they have relationships at all that are not doomed to failure, (Kira's > early relationship with the Bajoran politician in DS9 was doomed to failure > for example).. it tends to be with non-human males, or males not of their > own species etc. Its like - no "real man" can cope with having a strong > woman as a lover. to be fair, i don't think this is specific to strong female characters. very few of the regulars on *any* ST series have had long-term, successful relationships. as a matter of fact, the only couple i can think of that's really lasted has been miles and keiko o'brien. they're of the same species, and imho keiko has been portrayed as a relatively strong and independent woman. perhaps domestic bliss is not considered good fodder for dramatic storylines. :) i tend to think that if terry farrell had stayed on with DS9, they would have kept her and worf together, but that's just my impression. as far as the interspecies thing goes, mixed relationships have been a staple of ST for a long time. i think it's meant to show harmony & acceptance of difference, etc. - not to imply that one of the partners is too strong for their own species. -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:54:42 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Sheri Tepper / teachers int he family / requoting messages / childhood reads Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robin, et al: Of course I'll happily chatter about Tepper any time. I believe the Marianne books were my first exposure as well. I confess I still haven't read AFTER LONG SILENCE, just 'cause I know someday I'll be without an unread Tepper book, and it'll be there on the shelf awaiting me. I also read her mysteries under both psuedonyms, and would love any suggestions for a source for her poems. _______ Add me to the list of list members with a teaching parent. My dad is a college math/physics prof. ####### I can't be the only person on the list whose tired old eyes were tasked by scrolling through the many apparently unnecessarily repeated messages over the last few days, can I? ~~~~~~~ Actually, Harriet's [the Spy] life seemed like fantasy to me because she was so free! Anyone else with fond memories of Edward Eager (whom I think I saw mentioned) or Andre Norton's STEEL MAGIC? Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:49:42 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: childhood books / parents / democracy / etc In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:54:42 PST." Oh yes, I read the Edgar Eager (sp?) books! All of them, I think. Was _Steel Magic_ the one involving giant silverware? At some point I had a omnibus volume of four Andre Norton YA novels; don't know where it is now. And _Five Children and It_, and the _Greene Knowe_ books, which literally haunted my dreams for a couple weeks. Mmm. I think these were all pretty old books by the time I read them -- I was born in 1974, so you can do the math yourself -- but they were the best fantasy/SF in the children's section. Always thought it was funny that reading fantasy was normal if you were a kid (in fact parents were allowed to love those books) but not if you were an adult. Sheesh. My dad taught on and off (still does), but he was also a research prof and, for a few years, a computer programmer. My mother was, at various times, a bike mechanic, an acupuncturist, a midwife, a worker in a small feminist (of course! ;) printing press, a contributor to the first edition of _Our Bodies, Ourselves_, and lately a statistical analyst in public health. I think what I learned from them was variety. And of course we didn't have a TV, so what else was I going to do? The "Fatal Flaw" of democracy -- I'm not sure it's a _fatal_ flaw. Of course the majority can be wrong; but sometimes you've got to take your lumps. Democracy is only a *system* of government, it's not the government policy. I can't quite say I'm glad that Jesse "The Body" Ventura has been elected governor of Minnesota, but I'm glad he could be. [For non-US list members, or US list-members who haven't been paying attention: he's a professional wrestler. Pro wrestling in the US is more akin to a TV drama than a sport, and it's all carefully scripted. You're not allowed to bet on it because the outcome is predetermined. I've always thought it was the goofiest thing I'd ever seen. "The Body" was elected largely on the strength of his viewing populace, men between 18-44 who in many cases had never voted before. This is just as weird as it sounds.] I mean, hey, he won the election, right? Maybe the majority is wrong -- or maybe it had a much better idea of what it wanted than anyone else believed. I get a huge kick out of it. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:54:26 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: "question of what guys are" (was Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/98 3:56:01 PM Mountain Standard Time, jrankine@HRC.GOVT.NZ writes: >I just wonder what they would be like if from birth they hadn't had to police each other for sissy behaviour and establish to themselves and others that they were "not-women".> -- well, that's certainly a factor, but I don't think it's the whole story. Women aren't nicer or kinder or less competitive than men, but there do seem to be some differences in the way they like to express it. Tepper tends to fall off the horse in the other direction. It must be a terrible thing, to be a heterosexual separatist! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:56:02 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: childhood books / parents / democracy / etc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 3:50:11 AM, you wrote: <> Caveat!!!!! As a theatre person, let us not be prejudiced. Understand this is not a flame. I include fire-eaters, gypsies, Houdini, Sarah Bernhardt, Meryl Streep and Glenda Jackson all under the banner of "theatre." Just because he's a wrestler, and an actor (Predator) doesn't mean he's stupid. Doesn't mean he can't do something else. (And please, let's not get off on Ronald Reagan...) Just that I see people responded to this guy because he was a wrestler. As if that made him stupid. Don't know what I would do with myself if I were as large as he, with his background... he made what he did with what he had. The proof will be in the kind of pudding he serves up in Minnesota. Something to be watched. lightly, lightly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:59:39 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: "question of what guys are" (was Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm on a Search Committee in my college. We need a new Acadamic Dean. Struck me, reading the recommendation letters, on two of them for women candidates, the recommenders (male) had noted that the candidate was "intelligent." Has anyone ever seen a rec letter for a man that pointed out that fact? Yoikes. You win some, you lose some. sighing, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:10:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I also just finished reading "Stainless Steel Rat for President". :) Not _serious_, but still SF that talks about democracy. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft [SMTP:TMBouwman@AOL.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 3:04 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Democracies in sf/f > > In a message dated 98-11-08 16:59:54 EST, you write: > > << It's true, I can't really think of ANY science fiction books that even > mention voting as a political process (except for Heinlein's *Starship > Troopers* which presents a very weird vision of democracy). >> > > "Fair New World" (sorry can't remember the author right now, and the book's > upstairs, and I'm too laxy to go upstairs and fetch it) has a society that > votes, but you have to take a test before the vote to see how informed on the > specific issue you are. Everyone is entitled to vote; however, the more > informed you are the more weight your vote carries. Interesting premise. It > also has an interesting way of electing people to office. The society > believes that anyone who actually wants to run for political office is > obviously a few bricks shy of a full load and thus unqualified to hold office. > All nominees for office are submitted by other people, then the nominees run > and "anti-campaign"--basically telling the voters why they shouldn't vote for > them and why they should vote for their opponemt. The one who makes people > think they least want the job is the one who elected (figuring the person who > leasts wants the job is leasy likely to be a power-hungry tyrant type). > Again, interesting. > > Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:48:10 -0800 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: childhood books / parents / democracy / etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was Edward Eager, actually. I never read Steel Magic but I know it wasn't one of his. Frankly I think Ventura won the election not because he pulled in new voters but because people felt the other contenders were recycled. Here in Illinois I spent several weeks trying to find out if there was a third party candidate running for governor, since both candidates favored forced childbearing and seemed to be running for the title of most radical reactionary rather than governor. It wasn't until I got the ballot that I found out that there was a third person on the ballot, same reform party as Ventura. Maybe he'd have had a chance if people had known of his existence. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:44:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There is also another Earthsea story published in the "Legends" book about a girl who enters into the university at Roke but isnt fully accepted. She becomes a dragon--is that better? Worse? Same? Indifferent? Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 11/6/98 9:49:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, levymm@UWEC.EDU > writes: > > << The fourth book of Earthsea, Tehanu, is in part a specific attempt to > revision that niverse in more consciously feminist terms. >> > > > -- I found that extremely odd. The heroine decides not to go to university > (in effect), and this is feminist? > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: OT star trek question In-Reply-To: <19981110214208420.AAB239.231@jennifer.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought the Major (and the Klingon character on Voyager) is doing ok in the sex department! Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > At 10:45 PM 11/09/98 -0500, Donna wrote: > >>but here's my real question: that > >>character recently got married, and I am wondering if this is a case of "if > >>you get some, you have to die", the rule we've discussed here before. That > >>is, here's a strong female character in a reasonably loving relationship, > >>so they kill her off.> > > > >No, not that ruthless. The actress Terry Farrell took the role somewhat > reluctantly as I remember. She was not intending to stay > >long. She left the show to do other work which has become being a side > character on the new Ted Danson sitcom "Becker". She runs the > >cafe he hangs out in. > > Thanks Donna and others for filling in the plot details, and the tolerance > of the list for this digression. > > Regardless of the reason the actor left the show, and regardless of the way > her character was "killed", my suspicions were correct: here's a strong > female character (Marina's valid complaints aside) who got some, then was > killed. If it were a male character, they would just have transferred him > to another part of the galaxy and brought him back for a reunion episode > during ratings week. > > Off hand I can't remember if the other strong female characters killed off > in the various ST shows (Ro Laren, Tasha Yar, Worf's previous romantic > interest, etc.) followed the same rule. I sure wish the future weren't > such a dangerous place for women who want to have sex! > > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:52:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981111111025.007c1a70@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lets see -- can men handle strong independent minded women? Do they need handleing? Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Julieanne wrote: > At 11:56 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Marina wrote: > >I never really got to like Dax, for some reason. (snip).. > >I don't remember one single episode when she had > >to work on some project or deal with some problem independently, without > >it being tied up to her relationship with one of male characters. > > >Kira is a real person. She's not the "best buddy" of every male > >on the station, nor the object of their affection, because that absolutely > >does not matter to who she is. > > I agree Marina, Dax often appeared wimpish to me and Kira a much stronger > and more independent, dynamic character. Many of the minor Bajoran women > characters were portrayed this way, even the original Kai..and I perceived > hints throughout the DS9 series, that the strength and independence of > Bajoran women compared to all other races, was due to their long history of > equal participation under Cardassian occupation. > > Also, I was often disappointed with portrayals of relationships between > women characters. They never seem to develop true friendships for example, > and are rarely colleagues in a major plot-thread. In any scenes where Dax > and Kira were relating to each other, it was nearly always Dax teaching > Kira some *feminine* trait, like how to dress, flirt or have fun > 'girl-style' on the holiday planet Riza. They rarely work together, nor do > you see them saving each other's lives etc. In an episode where Worf and > Dax were sent to rescue an important Cardassian traitor, Dax is injured and > Worf causes the mission to fail in order to save Dax's life. At the time I > wondered how the story would have turned out, if Kira and Dax had gone > together on that sort of mission. > > In Voyager, the strong women are often in conflict - Bellana, Janeway and > 7-of-9 developed relationships of mutual respect, (for want of a better > word) after a period of conflict and distrust, but they don't develop > friendships the way male characters do, and they are rarely portrayed as > 'comrades-in-arms' saving each other's lives etc. One of the things I enjoy > about Klingon culture for example, is that Klingon women are often > portrayed as working, fighting, and playing together with or without their > own males. > > Other thing I've noticed is that strong independent women characters, if > they have relationships at all that are not doomed to failure, (Kira's > early relationship with the Bajoran politician in DS9 was doomed to failure > for example).. it tends to be with non-human males, or males not of their > own species etc. Its like - no "real man" can cope with having a strong > woman as a lover. > > Julieanne > jalc@ozemail.com.au > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > | | > | ERROR! General Protection Fault in REALITY.SYS | > | -Reality.sys file CORRUPTED!- | > | | > | Reboot the UNIVERSE to Correct | > | | > |_______________________________________________________________________| > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:17:34 -0800 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: Re: OT star trek question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, the problem is that TV is such a dangerous world for women who want to have meaningful roles. Tasha Yar was also the result of a woman wanting to jump ship, and Denise was able to return in some recurring roles when she asked to do so. Terry Farrell wanted to quit and did so, and the only case I can remember of a male choosing to quit was Wil Wheaton. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:45:36 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/10/98 8:23:00 AM Mountain Standard Time, JFrankln@FAMPRAC.UMN.EDU writes: << However much we may want to believe it, Tolkien could not channel the spirit of the past to write down pure European folk myth... How anyone can read the descriptions of the crazed Easterlings (or possibly Southrons) -- well, actually, that IS pure European folk myth. That's how "Moors" and "Saracens" appear in the folk-tales -- take a look at the "Chanson du Roland", any of the Carolingian cycle, etc. (I understand Richard the Lionheart was a boogeyman in Arab folktales, too.) Post-Renaissance European attitudes towards outsiders didn't spring full-blown from the crew of Columbus' ship; they were a development of longstanding assumptions about outsiders. European folk-tales (and the ballads and folk-songs), particularly if you get back to the versions before the Victorians got their hands on them, are not particularly "nice" by our standards. They depict the lives of peasants in a premodern society, a rather xenophobic and violent one at that; a "world without pity", as one writer described it, where the threat of starvation and violent death was ever-present, and all who weren't close kin or neighbors were regarded with intense suspicion at best. (Above is a gross oversimplification, but hey, profundity and ambiguity are hard to get across in 3 paragraphs...8-). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:49:08 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/10/98 1:34:06 PM Mountain Standard Time, jdawley@TOGETHER.NET writes: << but others have used this sort of reasoning to claim that Africans are evolutionarily closer to chimps than white people are.> -- that's odd, since Africans have far _less_ body hair than chimps do. In fact, all humans are Africans, comparatively recent emigrants from the mother continent. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:32:00 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: ventura In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:56:02 EST." >Caveat!!!!! As a theatre person, let us not be prejudiced. >Understand this is not a flame. I include fire-eaters, gypsies, >Houdini, Sarah Bernhardt, Meryl Streep and Glenda Jackson all under >the banner of "theatre." Just because he's a wrestler, and an actor >(Predator) doesn't mean he's stupid. Doesn't mean he can't do >something else. WEll, that was sort of my point, actually. You look at him -- a man who performs in staged fights and wears a feather boa -- and you think, "good grief, this man wants to be governor?" Immediately one comes up with all sorts of ideas about what someone needs to be a good governor. But I've heard people who didn't even vote for him saying, "You saw the debates, and you knew he was sincere. The other candidates, well, you could hardly tell them apart." Now, I know nothing about the man, and so I have this knee-jerk reaction that he must sort of be a kook because he looks like a kook, and it would be easy for me to point him out as an example of "the majority being wrong". But maybe the majority just was braver and smarter than those of us in California who voted for the Dem. because the Rep. was scary as hell. (Also because I dislike the platforms of almost every alternative party here, from "abolish all government regulation" to "schools should teach children to focus their chakras" -- instead of learning to read, apparently -- to "bring back the good old days", but whatever. The Natural Law Party, although it may have some good individuals, has a philosophy that reads like 18th century pseudo-science.) I don't expect Davis, our governor, to do anything really cool; I just expect him to refrain from banning abortion or doing much *more* damage to affirmative action. Ventura's a loose cannon. He might do anything, it could be *great*. You don't get that without democracy. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:41:06 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: BDG Snow Queen ->Tiamat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rebecca wrote: >And would somebody do me a favor and >look up the mythological reference for >"Tiamat" and tell me how THAT relates >to the Snow Queen. Rebecca: Here's the entry for the goddess "Tiamat" in Jessica Amanda Salmonson's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMAZONS: WOMEN WARRIORS FROM ANTIQUITY TO THE MODERN ERA: "Tiamat": Ceto in Greece, "Rahab" to the Hebrews. In one of the oldest surviving religious texts, ENUMA ELISH (WHEN ON HIGH) of Babylonia, about the second millennium B.C., the Dragon-goddess Tiamat overthrows the assembly of gods. They afterward elect a new, young god as their hero: When Tiamat heard the challenge She became as one possessed; She became beserk She recited spells While the gods of battle polished their steel. Then joined Tiamat and Marduck, the young god. They strove in single combat, locked in battle. This is essentially a myth of the overthrow of the Mother-goddess and the rise of patriarchal rule, evoking an earlier time of women's rule. In other ancient texts, including the Torah, the original Creatrix is likened to Chaos, whose voice called forth the world, and the patriarchal god wrestles her into submission in order to establish his rule over the cosmos. See "Eurynome" for a parallel goddess. [Heidel] --Sharon Clark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:02:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Snow Queen Rebecca wrote: >At 09:27 PM 11/9/98 CST, Jennifer wrote: >>At 03:08 PM 11/08/98 -0800, Karen wrote: >Herne is the name of the Stag King, the dying and reborn Consort of the >Goddess. The (admittedly dubious) book I have on Herne identifies him as >Herne/Pan, which is an extremely interesting idea when you consider that >Sparks choses the flute as his weapon. Herne is the predecessor of the >Celtic God Cerennu (sp). The challenge is right out of the Golden Bough >(and I seem to remember the death and the renewal of the Stag King in the >Mists of Avalon). Whatever possessed Vinge to marry this myth to the Snow >Queen? Great analysis. Whoever knows Vinge, is she involved in Goddess oriented religion herself? It seemed that was behind her nature-Sea worshiping Summers. >And how does it fit into Tiamat? Starbuck has to be an outworlder, but is >this an outworlder myth laid over Tiamat culture? Is this Winter >mythology? There is no given Son/Consort in the Summers' mythology. I think the book showed that the offworlders did their best to subvert whatever mythology the Winters might have originally had in order to use the Winters to get the water of life. The wanted to insert one of their own to lead the hunt for the mers because maybe even Winters wouldn't hunt them on their own. >And while I am complaining, there is no grounding for this huge potlatch >ceremony that dumps Winter, its rulers, and all its goods into the sea. I loved this idea. Of course the offworlders didn't want Summers figuring out how to use or produce technology whithout the offworlders interference, so I'm sure they helped to emphasize the Winter-technology-loving-Summer-technology-hating dichotomy. The fact that this enormous transfer of power could be made so non-violently, just by sacrificing a hated ruler and her consort kind of had a "Lottery" flair to it. What else but a powerful myth could have induced the Winters to give up their power, homes and possessions to Summer's rule? >And while I am mentioning the mers--are there any characters in this book >more passive, more hapless, more lambs-to-the-slaughter than the mers? I'm >sorry. They fill me with rage. They are supposed to be intelligent. In a >MILLENIUM, couldn't some of the less esthetically refined mers leave off >with their singing and their dancing and said, "Knock it off with the >hunting"? Maybe I'm guilty of speciesism here, but it seems to me that one >sign of intelligence should be the ability to organize your environment, to >recognize your enemies and defend yourself. At the very least, to protest >your own destruction in the face of your enemies. > >I'm really raging against God with this last paragraph. If whales are >REALLY an intelligent species, why don't they blockade harbors and sing >"Give pods a chance'? Why don't dolphins abduct sufers and make them learn >to jump through hoops? Why don't they hijack Carnival Cruise ships and >demand to speak to Kathy Lee? >>Rebecca You put that so well, Rebecca. I too wonder why, if dolphins and whales are supposed to be so intelligent they allow us complete domination over them. But they do, don't they, maybe for the same reason as the mers, whatever that might be. I still can't understand why anyone would want immortality, but the mers give some kind of understanding of what it would be like. Marina talked about all the things she could learn and do. Well, after a while I would think learning and doing new things could get just as boring as buying new things. Eternity is an awful long time after all. But the mers seemed to have achieved nirvana. The had complete enjoyment of every moment of their existence, whether it lasted a minute or an eternity. They lived completely in the present. Maybe the concept of death and slaughter meant nothing to them. They just were, they expected nothing else. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:56:11 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >If whales are REALLY an intelligent species, why don't they blockade harbors and sing "Give pods a chance'? Why don't dolphins abduct sufers and make them learn to jump through hoops? Why don't they hijack Carnival Cruise ships and demand to speak to Kathy Lee? >>Rebecca >You put that so well, Rebecca. I too wonder why, if dolphins and whales are supposed to be so intelligent they allow us complete domination over them.. < -- Joyce 1) Decades of cetacean research tends to prove that dolphins and some whales are "intelligent" in ways humans can understand. We may not understand HOW they think but THAT they "think" seems true. Interesting that some species are matriarchal societies. 2) Especially to people on this list, seems odd we wouldn't accept that there might be a non-human "race" with their own agenda, culture, and a basically benign attitude towards humans. No one has figured out why some dolphins seem to like us and some whales are quite tolerant towards people. IMHO we may be missing something if we assign such behavior to stupidity. 3) Don't think we can say these creatures "allow" us to dominate them. In the days of open-boat whaling, the whales fought back. Pretty hard to do against big catcher boats and harpoons fitted with explosive grenades shot at a distance, or, as the Russians recently used, hundreds of rounds of machine gun fire. Satellites can track them (and do), sonar, radar etc are employed by the whalers. Fatal net entangements and collisions with tankers are not a mark of submission. 4) Why is violence a mark of "intelligence"? I rather liked the mers. A different but vaguely familiar species with a different outlook. Human societies with a belief in reincarnation, or those who think it might someday be possible to preserve a mind in cyberspace once the body has decayed, are postulating a kind of live-forever idea. I loved the idea of a dolphin or a whale demanding to see Kathy Lee. Wouldn't that be fun! Think it would make the 6 o'clock news? lightly, lightly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:23:25 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: "Tiamat" reference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From Barbara Walker's _The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_, a 2 page entry. Basic information: Tiamat is the Sumero-Babylonian "Goddess Mother" "from whose formless body the universe was born at creation....Babylonnians later claimed their municipal god Marduk, Tiamat's son, divided her into heavens above and earth below....in derivative Hewbrew myths Tiamat became "Tehom" The Deep; and this is how she appears in the Bible." Lots of other connections to other goddess myths, but basically she is the source of life, superior to male consorts or sons, with the "fluid of creation" being her menstrual blood. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:36:35 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: political systems/voting in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The one book I can remember reading that foregrounded (oops, litcrit term, meaning made a big part of the plot in a major way) politics and political systems is Robert Heinlein's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ where the Moon has been colonized by Earth nations as a prison planet, much as some colonies in America were, and where current prisoners and their descendents are mining and growing grain for the nations of the earth in a sort of contract slavery. With the help of a sentient computer, a successful revolution is staged and then there's a big debate about what sort of political system to set up. The two "heroes" don't like traditional democracy (Heinlein had a lot of ideas about democracy that come out in the rest of his fiction) and try to argue for other methods, but cannot prevail. At the end, the hero "Manny" (*sigh*) is planning to colonize the asteroid belt where there's a lot more freedom. I used to love Heinlein and this one was my favorite of the novels, and I still have a sneaking fondness for some of it (I ignore the group marriage and Wyoming's ideas as much as possible to focus on Mike/Michelle the computer). Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:57:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: ICFA Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey there--notice a number of people said they would be attending the ICFA meeting this spring--I already have a roommate which is why I didn't jump in on that question--maybe we should set up a meeting time for all the femsf listers at the conference who want to get together for a meal or something! I put together four sessions on feminist sf to submit to the division head, and he also told me that the general call brought in a record number of feminist sf presentations, probably because of the conference's theme this year (utopian and dystopian sf). Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:03:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: childhood books [etc.] + Eager, Cameron Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-10 22:50:11 EST, you write: << Oh yes, I read the Edgar Eager (sp?) books! All of them, I think. Was _Steel Magic_ the one involving giant silverware? >> That was by Norton. Edward Eager was a great read, though; I still have Half Magic and Knight's Castle and Magic by the Lake; never got my own copy of Time Garden. Eager's generous mentions in his books led me to Nesbit, too. His girls and their squabbles with their brothers were a major appeal: especially Kathryn (the Terrible) and Jane. If you liked Eager, Nesbit, Lucy Boston (the Green Knowe books), or William Mayne--- time fantasy, in other words, you might like to take a look at the title work in Eleanor Cameron's book of essays, The Green and Burning Tree: On the Writing and Enjoyment of Children's Books. It's an appreciation of time fantasy, mentioning these authors and her own work. She has two other essays on fantasy in "children's books." I found this book in college, and started filling in books I'd missed as a kid. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:12:56 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: ICFA Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 2:59:44 PM, Robin wrote: <> Cool! phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:11:28 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: "Tiamat" reference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Feminist Companion to Mythology (ed Caroline Larrington) has a several page entry on Tiamat by Iris Furlong, with some interesting wrinkles. According to this book, in the Akkadian creation myth there was fresh water, the god Apsu, and salt water, goddess Tiamat. They combined their waters and birthed a number of gods, who were visualized as living in Tiamat's belly. Furlong writes (p 60; *The first incident to occur in the primordial womb was that a band of young gods started, for no given reason, a rowdy disturbance. Their riotous behaviour annoyed Tiamat but upset Apsu much more. He complained...* He tells Tiamat that he is going to get rid of them. She was "shocked and horrified, and strongly opposed any proposal to annhilate them, arguing in their defense that they were young and should be treated with tolerance.." But Apsu enlists the aid of his prime minister (Mummu) and they planned to kill the gods in Tiamat's belly. The young rowdies heard about it and, fearful, calmed down. Then in steps Ea, who casts a spell on Apsu and Mummu, takes the crown from Apsu and puts it on his own head. Then he kills both of them... Ea then reigns, lives happily with his wife and has children. Then, a god named Anu (son of Tiamat and Apsu) conjured up four whirlwinds which blew in Tiamat's belly making life there unbearable. Furlong notes: "No motivation for Anu's onslaught against Tiamat is offered..." His plan back-fired, however, as there was support for Tiamat, and her supporters urged her to action. So, Tiamat declared war, with excitement and support from other gods. She created a number of venomous monsters to fight for her ... etc etc it's a long story with ups and downs.. but winds up with a confrontation between Tiamat and the young god Marduk. There is a fearful battle between them, during which Tiamat opened her mouth to devour Marduk, but he threw whirlwinds into her belly, distending it and then shot an arrow into her which tore her insides apart, split her heart and killed her. (How's that for gruesome?) Then he created the sky with the top half of Tiamat's body and the earth with other parts. Bottom line is, as Robin has noted and others, a rebellion against the primordial mother goddess. sighing, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:40:27 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: "question of what guys are" + separatism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-10 22:55:17 EST, you write: << It must be a terrible thing, to be a heterosexual separatist! >> Hell, no! Not so terrible, not by a long shot!! To have sex with men, if you want to, doesn't mean that you have to live with or around them. Neither is sexual activity the sole defining aspect of a full, rich life. The C.R.O.N.E.S. Joanna Russ discussion site is looking this month at Chapter 4 of What Are We Fighting For?, that addresses separatism. Lesbianism isn't a requisite. Russ also says, at one point, that men seem to fare much worse when deprived of the services of women than women do without men. Further discussion would be more appropriate at that site; however, it does seem a challenge in feminist sf/utopian fiction to craft a separatist society that isn't exclusively lesbian. [looking for specific examples for later, but have to get back to work] Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:13:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sutliff Sanders Subject: Re: ICFA Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:57 AM 11/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >Hey there--notice a number of people said they would be attending the ICFA >meeting this spring...maybe we should set up a meeting time for all the femsf >listers at the conference who want to get together for a meal or something! >Robin > An excellent idea! I suggest that those who have been to the conference before suggest a time/place to meet (simply because these people might know a place at the hotel that is good to meet. . .oh, and make sure it doesn't conflict with GoH/panel stuff, please), and we decide where to eat (or whatever) when we finally meet in the physical world. Takers? Joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:18:41 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: "question of what guys are" (was Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 10 Nov 98, at 22:54, S.M. Stirling wrote: > Tepper tends to fall off the horse in the other direction. > It must be a terrible thing, to be a heterosexual > separatist! I don't know so much - many people have been those for centuries. What about priests, monks and nuns (of the 'traditional' sort I mean)? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ____________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:22:24 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Little Robber Girl / STEEL MAGIC ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Remember the Little Robber Girl? I always liked her better than >the other protagonists.> > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews Isn't she the one that bites? I always admired her audacity! _______ Jessie: Yes, STEEL MAGIC by Andre Norton had 3 transformed kids on a quest for a giant knife, fork and spoon! My favorite Eager book was SEVEN DAY MAGIC, because of the special little red library book in it. And my copy was checked out from the library and I could imagine it was "the" book. Also liked the way boys and girls worked together for the most part in his books, with some constraints of the times (eg the girls becoming dippy and seeking suitors in MAGIC BY THE LAKE). Also the fact that parents were often involved, even if they couldn't quite handle the magic. And, last but not least, the fact that most books had a visit from characters from another book! Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:35:22 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: star trek question - Dax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 10-11-1998 18:56, Marina said: > I don't remember one single episode when she had >to work on some project or deal with some problem independently, without >it being tied up to her relationship with one of male characters. _Rejoined_, in my humble opinion a fine episode. True, she's tied up with a relationship with a *female* characther there. That counts? :-) Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:35:28 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Elethiomel Subject: Re: OT star trek question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" At 10-11-1998 22:36, Jennifer Krauel said: >If it were a male character, they would just have transferred him >to another part of the galaxy and brought him back for a reunion episode >during ratings week. > Well, Leonard Nimoy tried hard to be killed off but run into some difficulties. Kirk did finally die. >Off hand I can't remember if the other strong female characters killed off >in the various ST shows (Ro Laren, Tasha Yar, Worf's previous romantic >interest, etc.) followed the same rule. I sure wish the future weren't >such a dangerous place for women who want to have sex! Neither Ro Laren nor Deanna Troi were killed off. Ro Laren defected and Deanna Troi is simply going on with her life in Starfleet. Anna F. Dal Dan http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel Anna esta' en la linea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:28:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: N Clowder Subject: Writer requesting book references Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Help! I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? (Writers see the PS.) Also, I would appreciate the names of books (preferably science fiction) in which the reader identifies closely with a character who undergoes emotionally (and/or physically) devastating ordeals. I would rule out EXCHANGE OF HOSTAGES, because none of the torture victims are viewpoint characters. I would rule out BLACK WINE because, although some of the viewpoint people really suffer, we are in a number of different viewpoints and don't stick with any character for a sustained period of time. I would say that BELOVED is a good example, because, although we again have multiple viewpoints, there is an intensity to it which I (personally) didn't get from BLACK WINE. I'll be reviewing posts from the last two months for references to such books - looks like there's been some discussion on these topics (I'm so behind on my list reading...my e-mail is unmanageable and I have turned my in-box over to the will of god as I understand her). Thanks, Nell nell.clowder@mail.utexas.edu P.S. Writers among you, can you suggest specifically how to deal with the opening chapter in which we meet the protagonist in her familiar environment? I hesitate to develop a strong plot line in chapter one, because it will (probably? largely?) have to be dropped after she is abducted. I don't want to start with the abduction, because it's really frightening and disorienting and we need to have some sympathy for the character in order to go through that with her. I have tried to sustain interest in chapter one largely through character and mood, but my readers are dropping like flies. Alas! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:52:27 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981111192850.012dc6b0@mail.utexas.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:28 PM 11/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >Help! > >I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call >this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, >all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the >rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any >of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? That'd be Nicola Griffith's Slow River. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:17:15 -0800 Reply-To: ltimmel@halcyon.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "L. Timmel Duchamp" Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit N Clowder wrote: > > Help! > > I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call > this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, > all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the > rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any > of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? Nicola Griffith's _Slow River_ has a similar situation. There are a lot of pitfalls to portraying such a situation, & _Slow River_ avoids them all. It's a very fine book besides (& won the Nebula & Lambda awards). Timmi Duchamp http://www.halcyon.com/ltimmel/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:13:48 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 11:29:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, clowder@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU writes: << clowder@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU >> What if she had some important task she needs to do that she gets torn away from? Something the readers will 'ouch' for her for...like, she's working on some merger and is trying not to get cheated out of it by an unscrupulous coworker...or she has decided to get back together with a lover and has finally got a 'date' and is arranging everything when, blooey, she gets into the new situation... Or her car is stolen and she is going throughout the frustration of trying to get it back...you know, something that gets your readers off on a completely different track while getting to know and kind of sympathize with the character... Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:34:23 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen discussion begins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara R. Hume wrote: > Actually, we are immortal already. Our souls and bodies will be reunited, and > we'll exist forever in a much more enjoyable plane of existence. Some of you > don't believe that, but I do, so that's why I wouldn't want to stay here, > taking up a place someone else could use. I wish I had the faith to understand death as specifically as you do. But I do have a similar spiritual inkling of what you put forth here. I thought this issue of immortality was really explored in many interesting ways in the book. In terms of the Snow Queen, immortality was seen as a spiritually bankrupt project, contrasted with the mer's natural immortality and their spiritual mystery. There was a great sentence about this but I can't find it. It said something like there is beauty in impermanence-- beauty in "a flower, a life." I wouldn't want to live forever, but then I definitely have a sense of something greater with a plan, and living forever would be usurping that plan. I also like the way Barbara put it-- not wanting to stay and take up space someone else could use. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:51:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S.M. Stirling wrote: > > In a message dated 11/10/98 1:34:06 PM Mountain Standard Time, > jdawley@TOGETHER.NET writes: > > << but others have used this sort of reasoning to claim that Africans > are evolutionarily closer to chimps than white people are.> > > -- that's odd, since Africans have far _less_ body hair than chimps > do. In fact, all humans are Africans, comparatively recent emigrants > from the mother continent. My point was that physical similarities have no bearing on whether two things are developmentally or psychologically linked. Often the very decision of what resembles what is fraught with unconscious biases. The people who claimed that Africans were closer to chimps held that their skins were dark, like the chimps, their noses were flatter, like the chimps, obviously they must be related in some way that white people aren't. The physical characteristics you listed seem just as arbitrary -- I could as well say that *women* are more chimp-like because they are shorter, on average, than men are. I am aware that there are fossil remains documenting human evolution and that there has been a trend toward less body hair, less pronounced brow ridges, etc. Nobody knows *why* these changes have occurred and there is no documented link between these physical characteristics and behavior/psychology, etc. Otherwise, why would the bonobos, who are almost identical physically to the chimpanzees, be so different in their behavior? -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:52:51 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen - immortality In-Reply-To: <006801be0d6b$1bcf8840$3d4b2599@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > I still can't understand why anyone would want immortality, > but the mers give some kind of understanding of what it would be like. > Marina talked about all the things she could learn and do. Well, after a > while I would think learning and doing new things could get just as boring > as buying new things. Eternity is an awful long time after all. To me, it the difference between consumption and creation. You can run out of books you could read, but you cannot run out of books you can write -- processing all the information, emotions, and expereince you keep receiving over the eternity and creating works of art, discoveries of science or general philosophy, or inventions in technology. Even such simple thing as human body has unlimited potential for new discoveries, let alone the nature in general. If you get tired of exploring the origins of life, you can switch to the puzzles of human behavior, or try inventing intergalactic spaceships, or artifical eyes, or whatever. I agree that consuming knowledge can eventually get tiring. But creating knowledge gives you only more satisfaction the more you do it. I see life (among other things) as a process of mapping the universe to the mental image inside one's brain. Which is why I never try to memorize anything, because as soon as I understand the concept, it falls into its place as a piece of the puzzle in my memory and stays there for good. Hell, I've got enough things I'd like to do and to keep me busy for at least next two thousand years. I'd spend at least a hundered of those on writing PhD thesises on the ideas that I already have in my head. After all -- who knows, you may ask me in two thousand years if I'm bored. But I don't think I will be :). People are often afraid of "living too long" because they don't want to outlive everyone they know. They are scared to be left there with all people that had been a part of their life having dissappered. But I have already went through something like that, as a teenager. When the war started, 80% of the city's previous population emigrated, replaced by those crooks from the mountains who made fortunes on the war. All my friends, aqciantances, parents' co-workers, my classmates, the salesclerks I used to see everyday at the grocery store nearby, and the doctors at the clinic I went to since I was a toddler -- they were all gone. I went to my old high school once when I was 19, there was only one teacher there that I knew, and she told me I was one of three people from my class still left in the city, just three years after the graduation. I felt kind of like one of those very old people visiting the place of their youth, with everyone else gone. Still, it was not the end of the world. Nothing is the end of the world, not even the end of the world itself. As long as you don't die, you can always meet some new people. Or just stay alone -- the friends you don't have cannot leave you. This universe is pretty big, and there is no way one can ever explore and understand it all, so there will always be something to do. Marina, who wants to live forever. http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:11:50 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phoebe Wray wrote: > 2) Especially to people on this list, seems odd we wouldn't accept that > there might be a non-human "race" with their own agenda, culture, and a > basically benign attitude towards humans. No one has figured out why > some dolphins seem to like us and some whales are quite tolerant towards > people. IMHO we may be missing something if we assign such behavior to > stupidity. > 3) Don't think we can say these creatures "allow" us to dominate them. > In the days of open-boat whaling, the whales fought back. It's interesting, in Moby Dick (one of my favorite books) you get this macho sense of the hunt-- and a sense of whales as intellingent monsters-- totally different than then New Age vision of them as benign creatures. But there is also a great deal of pathos in the book. I like the way you put this idea of the mer'separate culture. I really liked the mers, in fact they made the book for me. I think their presence as spiritual guardians of the sybil machine would make us take a step back as readers. Instead of comparing their motivations to human's, it made me wonder what kind of motivations they had and how that made them vulnerable to slaughter because they were not thinking on human/violent terms. I'll leave off on this before I start into martyrdom, etc. But I was wondering if anybody's read any of the writing on dolphins by that drug scientist -- Argh-- why can't I think of his name? That (terrible) movie, Altered States, was based on his work. Does anyone know what I'm talking about who could help me out here? --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:10:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen discussion begins In-Reply-To: <3649925E.DAD@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Allyson Shaw wrote: > In terms of the Snow Queen, immortality > was seen as a spiritually bankrupt project, contrasted with the mer's > natural immortality and their spiritual mystery. I might be wrong, but I don't think mers' immortality was natural. For what I remember, they were "guinea pigs" for the experiment that was meant to be later extended to humans. However, the civilization of the scientists that were working on it has collapsed before they could infect humans with that virus of immortality premanently. I think that was why they drunk the solutions of mer's blood -- it gave them that virus, but it did not stay for a long time, so they had to keep getting reinfected. I guess what I am saying is that mers' immortality was artificial, created by humans. So the ethical question shifts from "evil technology vs. nature" to simply "technology that's not good enough". IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:22:31 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An intense book of ordeal-- the first thing that comes to mind is Kathryn Harrison's Poison-- an amazing book threading the lives of two women in (15th?) century Spain-- one the French Princess forced to marry a sterile prince and (impossibly) give him an heir, and the other girl, a silk farmer's daughter who ends up prisoner of the Inquisition. It's harrowing, but beautifully written. Also about the first chapter issue. I'd avoid beginning at the beginning-- or pre-abduction. But I haven't read it some maybe something "at home" with her would work. Have you considered beginning after the most scary and devasting part, at a moment after she's been abducted and thinking of something in her old life, flashing back to the devastation? Just some ideas. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:03:36 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kate said: >Kim Stanley Robinsons' three "Mars" books contain examples of voting and >elections. In fact a lot of the time these books are mainly about >democracy and rights for everyone and how a political system can be made >to work on behalf of everyone. > >It is interesting that these books are as often termed "future history" >as they are SF. I love the way that they explore the birth of a new >nation/race and the way that people originally from earth gradually >become "martian" in outlook. KSR also explores how different >political/societal systems can be made to work - for example, >matriachies and co-operatives, and how these different systems could >co-exist. Oooh. I think he's great! I really really enjoyed "Antarctica". Friends have said it's a bit slow and talky, but I really enjoyed the alternative societal arrangements he's created. And the main female character, Val, the guide, is wonderful. "The stink of bad testosterone" indeed! Monica ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:40:54 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 9:07:52 PM, you wrote: << But I was wondering if anybody's read any of the writing on dolphins by that drug scientist >> I think you mean John Lilly. LOL to hear him called the "drug scientist." lightly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:59:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981111192850.012dc6b0@mail.utexas.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Look at Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap series; mixed reviews from the critics, but I loved the series and Morn--who does a lot of suffering. JB On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, N Clowder wrote: > Help! > > I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call > this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, > all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the > rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any > of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? > (Writers see the PS.) > > Also, I would appreciate the names of books (preferably science fiction) in > which the reader identifies closely with a character who undergoes > emotionally (and/or physically) devastating ordeals. I would rule out > EXCHANGE OF HOSTAGES, because none of the torture victims are viewpoint > characters. I would rule out BLACK WINE because, although some of the > viewpoint people really suffer, we are in a number of different viewpoints > and don't stick with any character for a sustained period of time. I would > say that BELOVED is a good example, because, although we again have multiple > viewpoints, there is an intensity to it which I (personally) didn't get from > BLACK WINE. > > I'll be reviewing posts from the last two months for references to such > books - looks like there's been some discussion on these topics (I'm so > behind on my list reading...my e-mail is unmanageable and I have turned my > in-box over to the will of god as I understand her). > > Thanks, > Nell > > nell.clowder@mail.utexas.edu > > P.S. Writers among you, can you suggest specifically how to deal with the > opening chapter in which we meet the protagonist in her familiar > environment? I hesitate to develop a strong plot line in chapter one, > because it will (probably? largely?) have to be dropped after she is > abducted. I don't want to start with the abduction, because it's really > frightening and disorienting and we need to have some sympathy for the > character in order to go through that with her. I have tried to sustain > interest in chapter one largely through character and mood, but my readers > are dropping like flies. Alas! > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:53:41 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Seren Subject: Re: star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: from "eva" at Nov 10, 98 05:46:08 pm Content-Type: text > [snip] [strong independent women characters' relationships are doomed to failure] oops - lost the attributions here > to be fair, i don't think this is specific to strong female characters. > very few of the regulars on *any* ST series have had long-term, successful > relationships. Thanks for saying what I've been thinking all the way through this thread (I've haven't been reading for a while due to flu). Let's see, in DS9 the main male characters up till I stopped watching were: Sisko, Odo, O'Brien, Quark, and Bashir. Sisko's wife dies in the pilot, and I believe the next relationship he has is not a success either (?). Bashir has lots of brief shallow relationships (this is implied anyway) and an unrequited thing for Dax. He falls deeply in love (for a change) but his lover leaves because she can't pursue her career and stay with him. (Shades of the Next Gen episode when Picard falls for the scientist). Miles (?) O'Brien is married to Keiko, and they have some probs because she feels her career has been affected by following him. Quark manages to screw up a potential good thing before it even starts. Odo has this long term unrequited thing for Kira. Now not so unrequited. Relationships are a bit of a problem for any series - either you have the O'Briens problem where one partner is a steady character and the other occasional - which causes problems cos the occasional partner isn't always available due to other acting commitments, or you have all of the permanent cast members going out with each other. Then you have the Federation problems - it's frequently said that it's pretty difficult to maintain a relationship because your careers may well take you in radically different directions. I think it's good that the writers *deal* with this. Star Trek ain't perfect, but it isn't always as bad as all that. Then again, it may just be me trying to pull the best out of it. seren As far as I can see, the classic Trek relationship is: They meet, fall passionately in love, but are parted by circumstances (including death), with much weeping and gnashing of teeth. The average relationship seems to last half an episode! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:09:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981111192850.012dc6b0@mail.utexas.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, N Clowder wrote: > I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call > this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, > all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the > rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any > of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? I believe this is the premise of most the Gor novels. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:20:35 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: The Science in Science Fiction In-Reply-To: <199811111436.IAA13104@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've been having an ongoing debate with a professor about the role of science in science fiction. She sees it as absolutely central, arguing that anxieties surrounding science and technology underlie all science fiction. I think that a lot of feminist science fiction (really the only type I know very well) is more concerned with issues of gender than of science. I'd be interested to hear other people's opinions on this matter. Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:15:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Subject: Re: The Science in Science Fiction In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think you both are correct, since you're really talking about apples and oranges. She's talking about science fiction in general and you about a smaller portion of scifi (although certainly one of the best parts!). I think that the science...ie our reaction to the ever-growing scientific knowledge and our fear of how technology will affect our lives...._is_ fundamental to scifi. The use of science and technology that is logically conceived and fundamentally plausible enhances the hope that things can change, that what was previously deemed impossible is not, that we _can_ evolve...that environments can recover, and that gender-based stereotypes can meld and blur... JB On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Pamela Bedore wrote: > I've been having an ongoing debate with a professor about the role of > science in science fiction. She sees it as absolutely central, arguing > that anxieties surrounding science and technology underlie all science > fiction. I think that a lot of feminist science fiction (really the only > type I know very well) is more concerned with issues of gender than > of science. > > I'd be interested to hear other people's opinions on this matter. > > Cheers, > > pamela bedore > department of english > simon fraser university > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:12:22 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen discussion begins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 12:30:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, allyshaw@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << I wouldn't want to live forever, but then I definitely have a sense of something greater with a plan, and living forever would be usurping that plan. I also like the way Barbara put it-- not wanting to stay and take up space someone else could use. >> Thanks for the kind response. Often when I post a message with a religious flavor to it, I get sarcastic replies from those with differing viewpoints. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:19:11 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Bouman Subject: Re: childhood books / parents / democracy / etc Comments: To: Heather Law In-Reply-To: <3649332A.539D@mc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Edward Eager! Marvelous, who remembers those books? Half Magic - Magic by the Lake Knight's Castle - The Time Garden Magic or Not? - The Wishing Well Seven Day Magic What made them extra cool, was that the characters in these books read a lot of books, some of which I had read. They go to the library and check out books by E. Nesbitt, Little Women, The Wizard of Oz, etc.... and sometimes have adventures in those worlds. Ivanhoe and such. That's how I discovered E. Nesbitt, because some of the kids in Edward Eager's books said she was their favorite author or something ... Five Children and It, maybe. When we talk of <> you read as a kid, I can think of a few specific titles like: The White Mountains, City of Gold and Lead, The Pool of Fire, by John Christopher... most of my life I've been the only person who had read those books but it's fun to see there are so many other people in this group who read them too. But if we're going to talk <> there must be more books about fantasy & magic for children than there are for adults. Remember all the books about fairy tales and witches and wizards and magic and animals and imaginary lands... Last August in my hometown I visited the library trying to find a certain book that had awakened my love for science fiction, was probably the first SF book I ever read (before Voyage to the Mushroom Planet, before Dragonsong and Dragonsinger). I could recall that the title was something about "Time" and two of the stories in it: what must have been "Robbie" by Isaac Asimov, and a story about a boy who grew up on Mars and then moved to Earth and was miserable because he was an outcast and had no friends. I think he ended up throwing himself off a balcony - into that heavy Earth gravity. So I found the (suburban branch) new building the library is in and went trolling up and down the kids' section hoping to find this old book... and I did! It was "Tales Beyond Time" edited by Algis Budrys. I wanted to photocopy the cover and Table of Contents, but the copier was out of order so I asked the librarian if I could carry the book next door and copy it there... ended up telling her my whole little story. She was thrilled! She was absolutely thrilled that I remembered coming to the library, and books I had read, and that I still love books and still love science fiction, and am now working at an online bookstore. She said she was going to write it up for their newsletter, heh! And could I possibly give her any advice on SF titles they should have, because *she* is the buyer but she knows nothing about it except what her nephew tells her. It wasn't til I got to college that I realized these sorts of stories had a categorical name: Science Fiction. My friend's boyfriend starting lending me Jack Chalker paperbacks. Bonnie On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Heather Law wrote: > It was Edward Eager, actually. I never read Steel Magic but I know it > wasn't one of his. > Frankly I think Ventura won the election not because he pulled in new > voters but because people felt the other contenders were recycled. Here > in Illinois I spent several weeks trying to find out if there was a > third party candidate running for governor, since both candidates > favored forced childbearing and seemed to be running for the title of > most radical reactionary rather than governor. It wasn't until I got the > ballot that I found out that there was a third person on the ballot, > same reform party as Ventura. Maybe he'd have had a chance if people had > known of his existence. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:19:36 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: The Science in Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 5:20:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, pebedore@SFU.CA writes: << 've been having an ongoing debate with a professor about the role of science in science fiction. She sees it as absolutely central, arguing that anxieties surrounding science and technology underlie all science fiction. I think that a lot of feminist science fiction (really the only type I know very well) is more concerned with issues of gender than of science. >> Asimov said that if you take the science out of an SF story and it can still stand, it wasn't science fiction. For him, the scientific premise is everything. But then, his idea of really great SF story was two guys in white lab coats discussing a scientific problem. I think we've come to use the term to refer to stories with a certain ambiance. If it has spaceships and blasters, it's science fiction. If the same story has wizards and unicorns, it's fantasy. You can tell feminist stories in either setting, or in a mainstream setting, or in poetry. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:02:32 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 1:53:49 PM Mountain Standard Time, jdawley@TOGETHER.NET writes: >Nobody knows *why* these changes have occurred and there is no documented link between these physical characteristics and behavior/psychology, etc. >> -- it's extremely unlikely that there's no connection. Not only do all hominid lines show the same changes, but they're more exaggerated in h. sapiens sapiens, which replaced all the others and which made the breakthrough to full symbolic culture. What's more, they're all related to increasing neoteny, and neoteny is particularly characteristic of (a) humans, and (b) domesticated ('humanized') animals. It's more than big eyes; in mammals, there are characteristic behavioral changes at sexual maturity including a decrease in playfulness, curiosity and sociability. A baby chimp is much more like a human than an adult chimp. Humans are "baby-faced" compared to our closest relatives and our own ancestors. Another major trend has been a decrease in sexual dimorphism, but that's a factor of the trend towards neoteny. Likewise, the artifactual record shows what looks very like a sharp reduction in detailed instinctual behavioral scripts vs. learned behaviors accompanying the physical changes, culminating in fully behaviorally modern humans about 50-80,000 years ago. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:09:01 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen - immortality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 2:00:32 PM Mountain Standard Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: I can't imagine ever being tired of living, myself, unless I was in severe pain or trapped in a small bare room or something of that sort. I'd like to live forever and know everything, and that just for _starters_. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:11:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Whales occasionally attacked whaleboats or even sail-powered whaling ships. Steel whale-catchers are just outside their league; and in any case, they didn't have an instinctual "script" for dealing with objects outside their evolutionary experience. Frankly, I've never seen any real evidence that any cetacean species is smarter than a smart dog, and those are among the toothed whales. The baleen whales are like cows with fins -- it doesn't take much in the way of brains to sneak up on krill. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:18:22 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: The Science in Science Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/98 6:20:52 PM Mountain Standard Time, pebedore@SFU.CA writes: << I think that a lot of feminist science fiction (really the only type I know very well) is more concerned with issues of gender than of science. -- both, I'd say. Social speculation has always been part of SF; many classic SF stories have little beyond being set in the future in the way of technology. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:12:02 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Kirschling Subject: Re: childhood reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain (because they haven't been mentioned yet...) one children's author who influenced me greatly as a 10 to 12-year old was zilpha keatley snyder. although not so much a fantasy author - her best books were realistic stories of imaginative children - she definitely gave me a push in this direction. as i recall, she was not a great prose stylist, but her characters - some boys but mostly girls - were complex, true to life, faced real problems, and did i envy the worlds they invented. the changeling dealt with 2 friends, one conventional but misunderstood, the other "different" and troubled, who created their own land of green sky, peopled with green-skinned tree dwelling characters, but who eventually grew apart. for better or for worse, it became my guide to life for the next year or 2. the egypt game, about a group of neighborhood kids who resurrect their idea of ancient egypt in an abandoned lot, was a model of diversity in action, and i credit it with sparking my early fascination, and remaining interest, in ancient history. (i used to sign my school papers in hieroglyphics.) another interesting book that i loved but had somehow completely forgotten until i found a copy in my local thrift store, was knee deep in thunder, by sheila moon, in which a girl embarks on a quest, aided by a group of large talking insects. darker and more serious than james and the giant peach. anyway, the copy i found was a trade paperback, published by the guild for psychological studies and aimed at adults. aparently it was rooted in navajo (dineh?) mythology. as for other early sf/f experiences, others have already cited narnia, the hobbit & lotr, susan cooper, earthsea, ursula leguin and ray bradbury who became my favorite authors as i voraciously devoured everything they wrote... but this could turn into a frighteningly infinite topic, so i will end here. good night (morning, afternoon). k.k. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:37:04 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Willshaw Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f/kim stanley robinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Marina said >Oooh. I think he's great! I really really enjoyed "Antarctica". Friends >have said it's a bit slow and talky, but I really enjoyed the alternative >societal arrangements he's created. And the main female character, Val, >the guide, is wonderful. "The stink of bad testosterone" indeed! I thought Antarctica was fab too! The only thing I would say is that a lot of his ideas in the Mars books came up in Antarctica too. He's obviously a complete idealist or a wishful seeker of utopia (witness his earlier books set in California 2-300 years in the future) Its a rare writer who can take you through the tedium of the setting up of a new democracy and still keep you interested. Added to this he is SO up to date with his scientific ideas - all of them in red Mars based on technology currently in development. What impressed me most was that he covered some of the research I have looked at for my PhD thesis in Landscape Ecology. I find myself going whoooh! at his ideas. His books are definately intellectually stimulating. Cant wait for his next offering Kate ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:53:27 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Willshaw Subject: Re: The Science in Science Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Pamela wrote >I've been having an ongoing debate with a professor about the role of >science in science fiction. She sees it as absolutely central, arguing >that anxieties surrounding science and technology underlie all science >fiction. I think that a lot of feminist science fiction (really the only >type I know very well) is more concerned with issues of gender than >of science. >I'd be interested to hear other people's opinions on this matter. Would you not say that some of what is billed as "science fiction" based on these gender issues isnt actually "science" fiction, but alternate world or future history fiction. What springs to mind here is "the gate to women's country" (tepper) which is a story about what may happen in the future, but not explaining details of how things happened in the past like they did to get to that society, but setting out the interactions between men and women of that time. Personally I would not class "Gate" as science fiction or fantasy. It is more a story set in a future. Sorry if this isn't coming over clearly!! Traditional Sci-fi - eg stephen donaldsons "gap" series or Gibson's cyber punk IS concerned with the science. As is Kim Stanley Robinson where he meticulously sets out his scintific methodology! I dont thing feminist "sci-fi" is the same as the "traditional" sci-fi mentioned above - the actual science isn't quite so important, and the gender relationships and people in general are more important. Of course this is just my opinion based on what Ive read! Kate ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: feldsipe@erols.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: suzanne feldman Organization: or lack thereof Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen - immortality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S.M. Stirling wrote: > > In a message dated 11/11/98 2:00:32 PM Mountain Standard Time, > my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > > I can't imagine ever being tired of living, myself, unless I was in severe > pain or trapped in a small bare room or something of that sort. I'd like to > live forever and know everything, and that just for _starters_. The problem with immortality is that you never get to quit your job and retire. It's like those vampire stories...what do those guys do for money besides bite folks and turn into bats? I prefer reincarnation: the great thing about the next life is that you can't start a savings account for it, even if you wanted to. Suze/Severna ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: star trek question - Dax In-Reply-To: <19981111183421.IQZL16980.fep02-svc@[212.216.34.112]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, exactly--she became involved with a woman on the show, I never saw her as dependent on anyone--at first they didnt even show her in any type of relationship except a more male-oriented comradarie because of the characters her symbiont had been before her. God forbid if they show a male homosexual relationship on the show, though! Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Elethiomel wrote: > At 10-11-1998 18:56, Marina said: > > > I don't remember one single episode when she had > >to work on some project or deal with some problem independently, without > >it being tied up to her relationship with one of male characters. > > _Rejoined_, in my humble opinion a fine episode. True, she's tied up with > a relationship with a *female* characther there. That counts? :-) > > Anna F. Dal Dan > http://www.fantascienza.com/sfpeople/elethiomel > > Anna esta' en la linea > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: The Science in Science Fiction In-Reply-To: <19981112095328.26557.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Kate Willshaw wrote: > Would you not say that some of what is billed as "science fiction" based > on these gender issues isnt actually "science" fiction, but alternate > world or future history fiction.... Personally I would not class "Gate" > as science fiction or fantasy. It is more a story set in a future. I just have to wonder at the utility of this sort of division and why you would want to make it. So much of science fiction is set in the future that the overlap between it and "future fiction" would be enormous. SF typically centers around some sort of change between the world as we know it today and the world (or worlds) of the text. I think the distinction you are trying to create is that this historical change that would have to occur between today and the setting of the future would be of little or no significance in future history, since it is merely set in a future, while it would be central to the specualtion of science fiction. But any story set in the future does presuppose change from the present. Even if it isn't spelled out, that historical change does impose itself upon a reading of the text (as Samuel Delany has pointed out in his critical work on sf). Future history cannot escape that any more than sf. This might not be at the heart of the distinction your are trying to make, but I hope I've raised some interesting points anyway. > Traditional Sci-fi - eg stephen donaldsons "gap" series or Gibson's > cyber punk IS concerned with the science. As is Kim Stanley Robinson > where he meticulously sets out his scintific methodology! Now here is a distinction I, and some others, make that you in turn might not find useful: the distinction between science fiction (sf) and "sci-fi". I see sci-fi as what someone described sf in another posting in an attempt to equate sf with fantasy - stories with all these spaceships whizzing around and robots and ray guns, etc. That is, works that use the trappings and imagery developed by sf in the service of some sort of adventure story with no consideration given to the scientific underpinning of those images or to any sort of ideas that go into serious speculation. So, Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, pretty much anything you see on TV or on a movie screen (thus, the Sci-Fi Channel). I would definitely not include Kim Stanley Robinson. I have heard more rigorous definitions of sci-fi, and I don't expect anyone to agree on it. For most people who use the term it is just a way of separating out works from sf that they particularly don't like - I still enjoy it. > I dont thing feminist "sci-fi" is the same as the "traditional" sci-fi > mentioned above - the actual science isn't quite so important, and the > gender relationships and people in general are more important. I see sf (traditionally and today) as at its heart a literature of ideas. Those ideas often come from the hard sciences, but they really can come from anywhere, and I have no trouble seeing gender studies as a part of the family of sciences. There's no real contradiction between what are considered to be the more traditional forms of sf and feminist sf, rather I see feminist sf as an expansion of the genre and a sometimes quite exciting expansion. Also, some of those olders works of sf did show great concern for people in general while lacking speculation about gender. There's no reason why speculation about, say, physics and speculation about gender roles shouldn't dovetail quite interestingly in an sf text. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:28:53 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: FEMSF- scattershot comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bonnie: Great story! I only wish my quest for a childhood book had been as fruitful. Don't remember who put it together, or anything much except that it was a large blue cloth bound book of fairy tales, lavishly illustrated, and it was my first encounter with the story of "Donkeyskin." Immortality -- I always worry about ending up like the guy in Douglas Adams' books, traveling therough the universe insluting everyone in alphabetical order because I have run out of interesting things to do. "Wrenching" suggestion: Octavia Butler's KINDRED. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:20:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chelle Rogers Subject: Re: looking for the moderator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have followed every direction to get off this list (thanks Heather) and it keeps telling me I'm not subscribed. Is there a list owner or moderator on here that can help? (I only have one email address, so it's not that.) Thanks, Chelle ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:34:06 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Clowder request for plot wrenching Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" N Clowder requested books which have the "plot line (caleld) "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world." Barbara Hambly's DARK series (_Time of the Dark_, _Armies of Daylight_ and another whose title I cannot remember) features two people from contemporary California who end up in a completely other world battling a major threat. One is a female graduate student (history), and the other a biker mechanic. It's not totally sudden--one of the characters has dreams, turns out she's in that world, then they meet a wizard fleeing with a baby from that world, and in helping him, end up going back, but it happens pretty fast, and they go back with him expecting to be returned to their own world SOON, and it doesn't happen because of the threat of the Dark. Fantasy elements, but the lifeform is explained scientifically, so you could say sf, at least speculative fiction. Also Hambly's Silicon Mage series in which a computer programmer (forget her name) ends up in another world as well--another trilogy, and I have spaced out even more on the name. A bunch of Hambly's novels have as an overall plot somebody wrenched suddenly out of their life (often female) and having to struggle to survive. Octavia Butler's _Kindred_ in which a contempoary African American woman is suddenly tranasported back to an antebellum Southern plantation where she saves the life of a young white boy--she keeps getting transported back in time and has to deal with being constructed as a "slave." The mechanics of the time travel are never explained; the focus is, again, on trying to survive for longer periods in that past time. Let me think, and I can probably come up with a few more... Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:42:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: "science" vs. "feminism" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The question of "issues of gender than of science" intrigued me. How are they separate? "Science" has provided a good deal of the cultural material on what "sex" and "gender" mean--even though one is often associated with biology, and the other with culture. To name a few crummy examples, the 19th century scientists who proved via "scientific measurement" (hey, it was measuring, it had numbers) that because "women's" and "Africans" skulls were smaller than European males, the two groups were inferior; the current medical industry which focuses more on males than females (look at some of the recent information about heart attacks). It might not be fair to blame them for not testing drugs on females, because of fertility problems, but when my mother had a heart attack, it was maddening to learn that the aspirin a day had been tested on men only, not women. (Artificial hearts were too large to fit into most women's chests, so there you go with that as well.) Much more medical research done on "male" problems than "female" problems, although that has begun to be addressed recently. You may or may not country psychiatry/psychology as a science, but many of the practicioners do, and what those fields of study have contributd to gender (and oppression) can hardly be listed without whole books. Where would American feminism be without the pill? What about the scientific/cultural aspects of all contraception and birth control--you think women aren't affected by 'science' in major ways every day. Look at some of the feminists trained in science who are critiquing it: Donna Harraway (primatologist, plus one of the few feminist theorists who actually talks about feminist sf) on how the observations of primates changed when women began doing it, Sandra Harding, and so forth. I think separating them is a false binary. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:50:19 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f/kim stanley robinson In-Reply-To: <19981112093704.5328.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Kate Willshaw wrote: > Marina said > > >Oooh. I think he's great! I really really enjoyed "Antarctica". > Friends I didn't say that :). It was someone else. Not that I object -- I just have not read that book yet. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:46:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S.M. Stirling wrote: > > In a message dated 11/11/98 1:53:49 PM Mountain Standard Time, > jdawley@TOGETHER.NET writes: > > >Nobody knows *why* these changes have occurred and there is no > >documented link between these physical characteristics and > >behavior/psychology, etc. > > -- it's extremely unlikely that there's no connection. Extremely unlikely? That's where we disagree. I see no reason to believe that there is a connection. There is a long history in statistics of confusing correlation with causation. To quote Stephen Jay Gould: "[Such correlations] are perfectly "true" in a mathematical sense, but they demonstrate no causal connection. For example, we may calculate a spectacular correlation -- very near the maximum value of 1.0 -- between the rise in world population during the past five years and the increasing separation of Europe and North America by continental drift." Gould deals in depth with the very argument you are making in Chapter 4 of *The Mismeasure of Man*, "Measuring Bodies". Previous to the "neoteny" argument of human development there was a prevailing theory that "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny", meaning that the fetal and childhood development of any creature indicated the evolutionary steps its species took to reach its present state. This theory was employed to "scientifically prove" that non-white races and women were less "advanced" than white men (since they seemed to be arrested at an earlier stage of development). The theory of recapitulation collapsed in the early years of this century, to be replaced by the contradictory theory of neoteny. Amazingly, this new theory was used to "scientifically prove", once again, that non-white races and women were less "advanced" than white men! Naturally, this meant tossing away all the old data and choosing a new set of measurements to emphasize. What I am trying to say is that biologically determinist ideas have been disastrously wrong and biased in the past and would be much better avoided unless there is a compelling reason to consider them. I find no compelling reason in this case. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:13:15 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Possibly, but I'd read some of the archives of this list to see what kind of reactions people have had to the Gor novels before I used them as good examples of what you're looking for. -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: John Bertland [mailto:jbertlan@CAPACCESS.ORG] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 5:09 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Writer requesting book references On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, N Clowder wrote: > I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call > this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, > all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the > rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any > of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? I believe this is the premise of most the Gor novels. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:11:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen - immortality Comments: To: suzanne feldman In-Reply-To: <364AC53F.CD@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, suzanne feldman wrote: > The problem with immortality is that you never get to quit your job and > retire. It's like those vampire stories...what do those guys do for > money besides bite folks and turn into bats? I prefer reincarnation: the > great thing about the next life is that you can't start a savings > account for it, even if you wanted to. I don't like the reincarnation idea. You'd never know where you'll be stuck the next time. I'm not too excited about retiring, either. I'd rather enjoy my life now than work like a dog for forty years and save the money hoping to do the things I really want some day. And when the some day comes, I'm too old and sick to do anything, and then I die and all the money goes to someone else. Yikes. I'd rather live forever and never retire. It's like "free beer tomorrow". You know that joke? It's about a sign at the bar that says "Free beer tomorrow". You come the next day and ask for free beer. And the bartender says -- no, the free beer is tomorrow. "But I was here yesterday and it said 'tomorrow'." "Exactly. But today is not tomorrow -- today is today, and the free beer is tomorrow." Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:23:47 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: The Science in Science Fiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This is probably one of the most divisive questions about the genre (along with "What is SF?" and "What is the difference between SF and Fantasy?") My two bits' worth: I have always sorta agreed with Darko Suvin's conception of SF as the literature of cognitive estrangement -- I don't know if Suvin is considered old hat or not these days, but I think he got it right. Thus, I feel SF *is* about science, but "science" broadly defined as knowledge. But SF is a broad genre, and there are plenty of stories that are not *primarily* concerned with science. However, when the connection to science/knowlege gets too tenuous -- when the author seems too obviously to be "really" talking about relationships, or gender roles, or satirizing the Cold War, or whatever, then I feel that story lacks something as SF. Robert Treitel calls it "the other 8 dreaded words" -- "I can't see the science in this fiction." Disclaimer: every time a pick up a "Best of the Year" anthology, I find a few stories which seem quite good, but which have no real reason being in an SF anthology. Either my standards are too narrow or editors are more concerned with finding great stories than with genre fidelity. Danny (BTW, the original Eight Dreaded Words are "I don't care what happens to these people." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:25:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: FEMSF- scattershot comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Immortality -- I always worry about ending up like the guy in Douglas > Adams' books, traveling therough the universe insluting everyone in > alphabetical order because I have run out of interesting things to do. IMHO, boredom is not a state, but the reflection of a personal attitude. If that guy from the book had nothing inside him to make his life meaningful, he would be bored even with 40 years of life, let alone an eternity. What I'm saying -- it's not the fault of eternity, it's just a failure to make one's life interesting. It's OK. I believe in choice, so those who want to live should live, and those who think they'd be only wasting space should not be forced to do that. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:29:03 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Clowder request for plot wrenching In-Reply-To: <199811121634.KAA01426@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:34 AM 11/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >N Clowder requested books which have the "plot line (caleld) "the great >wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, all unsuspecting, out of >her everyday, placid environment and spends the rest of the book struggling >in an unfamiliar and threatening world." I thought of another one: Aline Boucher Kaplan's "Khyren". A woman from today's earth is transported unexpectedly to a relatively hostile planet, manages to survive on her wits, and has many adventures. I enjoyed it. As I recall there was no initial chapter showing her in her "normal" life, that was done via flashbacks. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:36:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Clowder request for plot wrenching MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "beauty" by Sheri Tepper probably isn't what you're looking for (since there's quite a bit of buildup in the first chapter, and the buildup is based on the familiar fairy tale), but the first couple of time travels are pretty wrenching for Beauty (as I recall; it's been a while); might be worth looking at. -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Krauel [mailto:jkrauel@ACTIONEER.COM] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 9:29 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Clowder request for plot wrenching At 10:34 AM 11/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >N Clowder requested books which have the "plot line (caleld) "the great >wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, all unsuspecting, out of >her everyday, placid environment and spends the rest of the book struggling >in an unfamiliar and threatening world." I thought of another one: Aline Boucher Kaplan's "Khyren". A woman from today's earth is transported unexpectedly to a relatively hostile planet, manages to survive on her wits, and has many adventures. I enjoyed it. As I recall there was no initial chapter showing her in her "normal" life, that was done via flashbacks. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:48:28 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Brighton Subject: Re: OT star trek question In-Reply-To: <199811102221.RAA82476@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Watching Babylon 5 last night I was struck by the different way relationships are treated there compared to ST. In B5 two strong characters, John Sheridan and Delen, have married (albeit interspecies) and are now expecting a child. Another character (Michael Garibaldi) has just married an old flame and as he left to set up shop on Mars talked poignantly about his hopes to have a family of his own. Karen ----<@ Karen Brighton )O( "It is a momentous decision, to have a child, Fred Hutchinson Cancer and forever have your heart walking around Research Center outside your body" Elizabeth Stone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:51:39 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: OT (again!) Statistics (was "the question of what guys In-Reply-To: <364B10C8.85803038@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > (in part) < > > Extremely unlikely? That's where we disagree. I see no reason to believe > that there is a connection. There is a long history in statistics of > confusing correlation with causation. My favorite mis-correlation, from a beginning statistics class, is the one that said the stork brought the babies. It seems that because houses with an unusually high number of births were also more frequently the ones with storks nesting on the chimineys, people in some English villages thought one caused the other. The class spent some time trying to figure out the real correlation; I think they arrived at greater prosperity = more coal to burn = warmer chimneys as well as being able to afford more children. The anecdote was from the teacher's lecture on the misuse of statistics - another major example was advertising. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:20:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: Re: The Science in Science Fiction -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Pamela wrote >I've been having an ongoing debate with a professor >about the role of science in science fiction. >>Would you not say that some of what is billed as "science fiction" based on these gender issues isnt actually "science" fiction, but alternate world or future history fiction. What springs to mind here is "the gate to women's country" (tepper) which is a story about what may happen in the future, but not explaining details of how things happened in the past like they did to get to that society, but setting out the interactions between men and women of that time. I pretty much agree with that--there's no shame in being defined as "alternate history" rather than science fiction. My general definition of science fiction is "an exploration of the effect of technology on society." SF isn't so much about, say, physics, than about what new discoveries in physics will allow human (or alien) society to do. I think that SF is more about anthropology than chemistry. However, this feeds into the bigger debate about soft and hard sciences: Are disciplines such as anthropology and archaeology humanities or sciences? Or are they humanities that should be approached using the scientific method? I did several years of graduate work in anthropology/archaeology, and I was always pretty rigid in my application of the scientific method--I see them as sciences. Gender studies, as long as it isn't concentrated on the study of literature, is really a form of anthropology (although the "anthro" might be upsetting to some practicioners!). The SF of ideas (as separated from shoot 'em up space opera--which is adventure fiction) is based more on anthropology rather than the hard sciences--C.J. Cherryh is a obvious example. But, in the end, I like to think of SF and fantasy being like a large circus tent, with enough room all the exotic animals, weird sights, strange performers, and interested spectators who wish to fit underneath. But no clowns. They frighten me! Debra ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:33:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: OT: ICFA Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I won't do any more posting on this off topic subject, but just wanted to set a chance to communicate off list. If everyone who is going to the ICFA and who wants to meet up sometime during the conference will email me their email address, I'll put together a 'nickname' grouping of all the email addresses so we can communicate to that group off the list. We can do the planning in that fashion. I suggest waiting until the conference program comes out to set up any meeting. This conference does have some great luncheon and dinner programs AND good food at those events which make it worth paying the extra money to attend (you also get free books at several of the events, and we wouldn't want to overlap those or the sessions and panels. The only down side is that this hotel doesn't seem to be to near other restaurants or shops, so I remember being stuck in the hotel for the whole conference except for one night out with a horrendous cost for a van service that we HAD thought the hotel was providing free of charge. But we can talk about this further off list. Thanks! Robin_Reid@tamu-commerce.edu Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:41:38 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jeannette Camilleri Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone! This is the first time I have posted to the list but I have been lurking for a month or so (possibly even more- I tend to be reticent). I really enjoy reading all the posts as they are invariably perceptive and interesting! So I am delurking because a book I have read recently fits in with the "great wrench" plotline : The Perstistence of memory (Karen Ripley) It's part of a trilogy ("The Slow World") - I've only read the first book as SF is rather difficult to find where I live. The book I have read is very gripping: it starts with the protagonist escaping from people on horseback with no idea who she is or where she is from - later it turns out that she is marooned in a place where no-one remembers the past, but they all come from what I assume to be "our world". I suppose outside my own benighted island home the sequels will be easier to find, as the deeper mystery is only hinted at in the first book. Relurking now! Jeannette >Help! > >I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call >this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, >all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the >rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any >of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? >(Writers see the PS.) > >Also, I would appreciate the names of books (preferably science fiction) in >which the reader identifies closely with a character who undergoes >emotionally (and/or physically) devastating ordeals. I would rule out >EXCHANGE OF HOSTAGES, because none of the torture victims are viewpoint >characters. I would rule out BLACK WINE because, although some of the >viewpoint people really suffer, we are in a number of different viewpoints >and don't stick with any character for a sustained period of time. I would >say that BELOVED is a good example, because, although we again have multiple >viewpoints, there is an intensity to it which I (personally) didn't get from >BLACK WINE. > >I'll be reviewing posts from the last two months for references to such >books - looks like there's been some discussion on these topics (I'm so >behind on my list reading...my e-mail is unmanageable and I have turned my >in-box over to the will of god as I understand her). > >Thanks, >Nell > >nell.clowder@mail.utexas.edu > >P.S. Writers among you, can you suggest specifically how to deal with the >opening chapter in which we meet the protagonist in her familiar >environment? I hesitate to develop a strong plot line in chapter one, >because it will (probably? largely?) have to be dropped after she is >abducted. I don't want to start with the abduction, because it's really >frightening and disorienting and we need to have some sympathy for the >character in order to go through that with her. I have tried to sustain >interest in chapter one largely through character and mood, but my readers >are dropping like flies. Alas! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:59:09 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Damn. This reminded me of a book I read about a guy who wakes up in some other body on some other world, with no recollection of who he is, or who the body is supposed to be; the body is slightly non-human, but similar enough for him to cope. It's a desert world, and the image that really stuck in my mind is that he figured out how adapted his new body is to the desert when he went to urinate, and it came out as crystals (no liquid loss). It was actually an interesting book, but I can't remember anything else about it. Anybody know what it is? -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Jeannette Camilleri [mailto:jeannec@ORBIT.NET.MT] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 1998 10:42 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Writer requesting book references Hi everyone! This is the first time I have posted to the list but I have been lurking for a month or so (possibly even more- I tend to be reticent). I really enjoy reading all the posts as they are invariably perceptive and interesting! So I am delurking because a book I have read recently fits in with the "great wrench" plotline : The Perstistence of memory (Karen Ripley) It's part of a trilogy ("The Slow World") - I've only read the first book as SF is rather difficult to find where I live. The book I have read is very gripping: it starts with the protagonist escaping from people on horseback with no idea who she is or where she is from - later it turns out that she is marooned in a place where no-one remembers the past, but they all come from what I assume to be "our world". I suppose outside my own benighted island home the sequels will be easier to find, as the deeper mystery is only hinted at in the first book. Relurking now! Jeannette >Help! > >I am working on a novel in which the protagonist is kidnapped. Let's call >this plot line "the great wrench" - in which the main character is ripped, >all unsuspecting, out of her everyday, placid environment and spends the >rest of the book struggling in an unfamiliar and threatening world. Can any >of you cite books (preferably science fiction) with a similar situation? >(Writers see the PS.) > >Also, I would appreciate the names of books (preferably science fiction) in >which the reader identifies closely with a character who undergoes >emotionally (and/or physically) devastating ordeals. I would rule out >EXCHANGE OF HOSTAGES, because none of the torture victims are viewpoint >characters. I would rule out BLACK WINE because, although some of the >viewpoint people really suffer, we are in a number of different viewpoints >and don't stick with any character for a sustained period of time. I would >say that BELOVED is a good example, because, although we again have multiple >viewpoints, there is an intensity to it which I (personally) didn't get from >BLACK WINE. > >I'll be reviewing posts from the last two months for references to such >books - looks like there's been some discussion on these topics (I'm so >behind on my list reading...my e-mail is unmanageable and I have turned my >in-box over to the will of god as I understand her). > >Thanks, >Nell > >nell.clowder@mail.utexas.edu > >P.S. Writers among you, can you suggest specifically how to deal with the >opening chapter in which we meet the protagonist in her familiar >environment? I hesitate to develop a strong plot line in chapter one, >because it will (probably? largely?) have to be dropped after she is >abducted. I don't want to start with the abduction, because it's really >frightening and disorienting and we need to have some sympathy for the >character in order to go through that with her. I have tried to sustain >interest in chapter one largely through character and mood, but my readers >are dropping like flies. Alas! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:25:10 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jean richards Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen - immortality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just read what I consider to be a wonderful book on immortality. "The First Immortal" I'm not sure it qualifies as Feminist SF, but it certainly qualifies as addressing ethical and moral issues of equality. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:33:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Candioglos, Sandy wrote: > Damn. This reminded me of a book I read about a guy who wakes up in some > other body on some other world, with no recollection of who he is, or who > the body is supposed to be; the body is slightly non-human, but similar > enough for him to cope. It's a desert world, and the image that really > stuck in my mind is that he figured out how adapted his new body is to the > desert when he went to urinate, and it came out as crystals (no liquid > loss). > It was actually an interesting book, but I can't remember anything else > about it. Anybody know what it is? > > -Sandy The book is _The Steel of Raithskar_ by Randall Garrett and Vick Heydrom, the first in the six volume Gandalara Cycle. ************************************************************** Dr Patricia Monk patmonk@is.dal.ca Department of English Dalhousie University HALIFAX Nova Scotia B3H 2S3 ignorance is curable * stupidity is forever ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: OT star trek question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Karen Brighton wrote: > Watching Babylon 5 last night I was struck by the different way . . . I would have appreciated a spoilers alert at the beginning of this. I am watching Babylon 5 on a channel which has only recently picked it up, starting from the beginning, and the rest of this message really made a mess of my day (which wasn't great to begin with). Could future posters please remember that we don't all get the same first class service from the TV industry! ************************************************************** Dr Patricia Monk patmonk@is.dal.ca Department of English Dalhousie University HALIFAX Nova Scotia B3H 2S3 ignorance is curable * stupidity is forever ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:11:33 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: Re-reading Childhood Favorites Comments: To: Rebecca In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981109203303.00784e70@flink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Rebecca wrote: > When I took a college class in Tolkien, I wrote one paper on > Pippen--Tolkien's most successful female character. My teacher, who > fancies himself a Tolkien scholar, was not amused. But good writing and a > solid "proof" will stymie the most humorless of academians. :-) LOL! i find this incredibly amusing because pippin was *the* character i identified with when i first read the trilogy as a very young girl. i still use "pippin" as a pseudonym on IRC and various internet chat groups. i'd be interested in hearing your "solid proof." :) -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:29:01 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: OT (again!) Statistics (was "the question of what guys >It seems that because houses with an unusually high number of births >were also more frequently the ones with storks nesting on the >chimineys, people in some English villages thought one caused the >other. The stork is not an English bird (though the mythology of the childbringing stork has worked its way well into British consciousness). Storks and chimneys are, I think, found in the southern parts of Germany and Switzerland (but I am not an ornithologist). Or possibly Denmark - indeed, doesn't this originally come from Hans Andersen??? Also, I suspect that it's a false analysis to assume that some such correlation is at the root of the superstition. I.e. why should it be a gooseberry bush that babies are found under? Other factors operating. I suppose this has some tenuous relationship to science... explanatory models and the role of 'rationalising'. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:30:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patricia Monk wrote: > On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Candioglos, Sandy wrote: > > Damn. This reminded me of a book I read about a guy who wakes up in > > some other body on some other world, with no recollection of who he > > is, or who the body is supposed to be; the body is slightly > > non-human, but similar enough for him to cope. It's a desert world > > The book is _The Steel of Raithskar_ by Randall Garrett and Vick > Heydrom, the first in the six volume Gandalara Cycle. Just one little nit: the second author's name is Vicki Ann Heydron. I was quite entertained by these books back in the mid-80s but can't remember much about them any more. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:49:33 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: OT (again!) Statistics Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 12 Nov 98, at 9:51, Keith wrote: > My favorite mis-correlation, from a beginning > statistics class, is the one that said the stork > brought the babies. .[snip].. The class spent > some time trying to figure out the real correlation; > I think they arrived at greater prosperity = more > coal to burn = warmer chimneys [= more storks] as > well as being able to afford more children. Doesn't your example (at least at first glance) show that this wasn't just a simple "mis-correlation"? Although the explanation "more storks = more children" was obviously flawed, a statistician would have investigated further and come up with the economic explanations for the "more children" and "warmer chimneys = more storks". Your example shows that if two phenomena are found to be correlated, an investigator must be careful to ensure that the correlation is direct, and doesn't occur because the two phenomena have a common explanation. A mathematical correlation simply shows relationship(s) between sets of numbers and of course doesn't show causation. But a reasonable _physical_ explanation, even if it's indirect, for a correlation NECESSARILY means that the correlation indicates _possible_ causation. I disagree that "[t]here is a long history in statistics of confusing correlation with causation". No statistician confuses "correlation" with "causation". Warnings against this are given in almost every stats textbook. Problems start when somebody (rarely a statistician) uses the results from perfectly valid mathematical calculations to attribute "causation" based on debatable physical explanations - which is quite a different matter. I'm not being pedantic here. As a statistician/risk analyst, I deal with this problem almost daily. In the same way, it worries me when people reject science itself just because some scientists and/or their works are flawed. Would you reject all art because some painters are sexist or all music because some musicians are racists? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) _________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:55:06 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Clowder request for plot wrenching Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Don't think anyone has mentioned Stephen R. Donaldson's Mirror of Her Dreams and a Man Rides Through. Heroine here gets sucked through a mirror into another plane, time, etc etc and it takes her two books to decide what to do. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:03:40 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/98 10:16:23 AM Mountain Standard Time, jdawley@TOGETHER.NET writes: << Extremely unlikely? That's where we disagree. I see no reason to believe that there is a connection. There is a long history in statistics of confusing correlation with causation.> -- post hoc propter ergo hoc, but the Gould quote you mention is dishonest (not a first, for him -- he's particularly fond of dragging in long-dead 19th- century pseudoscience and falsely claiming his opponents are advocating a return to measuring head-bumps). We're not correlating continental drift with demographics in this case; we're correlating changes in physiology with other changes in physiology. Organisms are coordinated wholes, not collections of randomly assembled parts. Science, particularly the descriptive ones like evolutionary biology, is a matter of looking for patterns of correlation and then testing hypotheses about structural interconnections. If you think the neoteny argument is flawed, I'm always ready to hear why, but a blanket dismissal based on spurious associations with phrenology looks suspiciously like ideological censorship. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:06:03 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: OT: ICFA Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Robin... I intend to be there. Going to Arisa, too. These will represent my first and second conferences. Babe in arms. Been to lots and lots of confrences but not on this topic. I think it would be lovely to meet up with the other listers. Looking forward to learning something while having fun. best phoebe wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:15:45 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/98 1:05:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, JoatSimeon@AOL.COM writes: << post hoc propter ergo hoc >> OK. I admit it. I haven't taken latin since 1968. What DOES this mean? Translation please for the latin impaired. Thanks, Madrone I get after something, therefore but what the heck is hoc? I forget. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:23:54 -0500 Reply-To: virchick@bostonabcd.org Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Garret Virchick Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do I get off this list?...I did what was asked and I get a message that says there is no record of this account and I got another 100 messages that I just cant begin to start looking through. I WANT OFF THIS LIST>>>>>>I FEEL I AM IN A BLACK HOLE AND CANT GET OUT TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST OR TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND THEN TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:59:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: OT star trek and B5 question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ooer, spoilers On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Karen Brighton wrote: > Watching Babylon 5 last night I was struck by the different way > relationships are treated there compared to ST. In B5 two strong > characters, John Sheridan and Delen, have married (albeit interspecies) > and are now expecting a child. Another character (Michael Garibaldi) has > just married an old flame and as he left to set up shop on Mars talked > poignantly about his hopes to have a family of his own. Yeah, but that's it. On balance it doesn't really end up being that different from Star Trek. Ivanova has had three love interests - two who betrayed her and one who died. Dr. Franklin also has had three - one that faded from the show after one episode, one that died, and the third one is still there sort of. Londo has had several wives, but the one woman he really loved died. Sheridan's second wife was abducted by aliens and eventually died, and his first wife was a late plot contrivance. Sinclair's love interest disappeared without a trace when she became inconvenient to the series. Lennier and Zach have only had unrequited crushes. I guess you could call that a loving relationship between Lyta and Byron, but I'm trying to forget those episodes. Vir had an arranged marriage that was dropped. And G'Kar has had no one, so much for being a sensitive guy. (Have I forgotten anybody?) B5 has had the same problems as Star Trek in providing romantic relationships for the main characters - if they involve a character who isn't a regular or even if it doesn't involve the main characters it never seems to get anywhere. All that said, I am happy for Lise and Michael. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:04:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: The Science in Science Fiction -Reply In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Debra Euler wrote: > But, in the end, I like to think of SF and fantasy being like a large > circus tent, with enough room all the exotic animals, weird sights, > strange performers, and interested spectators who wish to fit > underneath. I was following you up to this point (and I'm sorry I had to cut it because the above might look a little weird out of context). Do you mean that SF and fantasy are together one big tent, that is, a single genre? Or that they are two separate tents? I prefer to keep them separate, but many people on this list seem to like to put them together. There was little in the rest of the post to indicate why you would conceptionally combine them like that, so I'm really just being curious. > > But no clowns. They frighten me! > I never understood clowns. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:43:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: OT (again!) Statistics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Stanton wrote: > I disagree that "[t]here is a long history in statistics of confusing > correlation with causation". No statistician confuses "correlation" > with "causation". Warnings against this are given in almost every > stats textbook. Problems start when somebody (rarely a statistician) > uses the results from perfectly valid mathematical calculations to > attribute "causation" based on debatable physical explanations - which > is quite a different matter. It was a mis-statement on my part. I should have pointed out that statisticians are not necessarily responsible for the uses to which their data is put. > In the same way, it worries me when people reject science itself just > because some scientists and/or their works are flawed. Would you > reject all art because some painters are sexist or all music because > some musicians are racists? Not sure if you were addressing this question to me or Kathleen. If it was me... no, I certainly do not reject science itself. It's my opinion that sociobiology is a "pseudo-science". My feelings about it are completely separate from my respect for and practice of scientific principles. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 11/12/98 10:16:23 AM Mountain Standard Time, > jdawley@TOGETHER.NET writes: > > << Extremely unlikely? That's where we disagree. I see no reason to > believe that there is a connection. There is a long history in > statistics of confusing correlation with causation.> > > -- post hoc propter ergo hoc, but the Gould quote you mention is > dishonest (not a first, for him -- he's particularly fond of dragging > in long-dead 19th-century pseudoscience and falsely claiming his > opponents are advocating a return to measuring head-bumps). Gould may be nasty from time to time, but I don't see how he's dishonest. He is critiquing a thought-process, not a specific set of data. > We're not correlating continental drift with demographics in this > case; we're correlating changes in physiology with other changes in > physiology. Organisms are coordinated wholes, not collections of > randomly assembled parts. Correct me if I am wrong, but in your original message you were correlating physiology and behavior. > Science, particularly the descriptive ones like evolutionary biology, > is a matter of looking for patterns of correlation and then testing > hypotheses about structural interconnections. Well, I did not mean to imply that correlation *never* indicates causation. Combined with solid empirical testing, it is indispensable. > If you think the neoteny argument is flawed, I'm always ready to hear > why, but a blanket dismissal based on spurious associations with > phrenology looks suspiciously like ideological censorship. I thought I had already explained my problem with the neoteny argument, but apparently not. As far as I know there is no credible evidence that the physiological changes that you mentioned are related to changes in behavior. The evidence you mentioned seems like it could easily be a series of meaningless coincidences. And I think you are failing to see the logical extensions of your own argument. If men are somehow evolutionarily closer to chimps because they are less neotenous than women are... wouldn't it follow that Chinese people, more neotenous than Europeans, are farther away from chimps evolutionarily? Why is none of this borne out by DNA testing? And how exactly would these vague predispositions make any difference at all when faced with the powerful effects of conditioning? As a student of anthropology, I've read a lot more than Stephen Jay Gould on this topic and I have yet to see any satisfactory answers to these questions. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: R.E.M. -- Up "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:21:38 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne * Subject: Re: looking for the moderator In-Reply-To: <364B0ADE.D22D0202@rockisland.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:20 AM 11/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have followed every direction to get off this list (thanks Heather) >and it keeps telling me I'm not subscribed. Is there a list owner or >moderator on here that can help? (I only have one email address, so it's >not that.) > >Thanks, Chelle I am having the same problem! I cannot signoff as it tells me I am not subscribed! I have sent e-mail to the moderator but there has been no response for several days???????????? Help! Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Subject: Re: Clowder request for plot wrenching In-Reply-To: <4858a03a.364b4b2a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Of course..and the most obvious one is mentioned last...his Thomas Covenant Chronicles! A leper is plopped into the middle of a high fantasy land due to a car accident/bump on the head ? (it's been a while since I read them..). On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > Don't think anyone has mentioned Stephen R. Donaldson's Mirror of Her Dreams > and a Man Rides Through. Heroine here gets sucked through a mirror into > another plane, time, etc etc and it takes her two books to decide what to do. > > best > phoebe > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:52:23 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/12/98 2:18:44 PM Mountain Standard Time, DMadrone@AOL.COM writes: << post hoc propter ergo hoc >> -- freely translated, "that something follows something does not mean that it was caused by it". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:07:47 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: Clowder request for plot wrenching In-Reply-To: <2112974@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Both Thomas Covenant series are built around the great wrench and horrible ordeals, but they are fantasy, not sf. In Andre Norton's _Witch World_ the hero is wrenched out of his world. Rebecca At 03:00 PM 11/12/98 CST, you wrote: >Don't think anyone has mentioned Stephen R. Donaldson's Mirror of Her Dreams >and a Man Rides Through. Heroine here gets sucked through a mirror into >another plane, time, etc etc and it takes her two books to decide what to do. > >best >phoebe > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:35:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: "question of what guys are" (was Buj In-Reply-To: <2109039@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Intelligent, hum... Two local guys are among a handful of people who has been asked to do a reprise of their Stupid Human Tricks on the David Letterman prime-time 5th anniversary show. What did they do to warrant this honor? One guy shoots a minature marshmellow out of his nose and the other guy catches it in his mouth. Dave was completely grossed out the first time they appeared, so they were invited back. I would have thought it hard to decide between these characters and the guy who mixed milk and cocco in his mouth and blew chocolate milk out his nose. --Not that a woman couldn't excel at either feat. . . But she would, almost surely, have to have older brothers to put the idea in her head. Rebecca At 10:15 PM 11/10/98 CST, you wrote: >I'm on a Search Committee in my college. We need a new Acadamic Dean. Struck >me, reading the recommendation letters, on two of them for women candidates, >the recommenders (male) had noted that the candidate was "intelligent." Has >anyone ever seen a rec letter for a man that pointed out that fact? Yoikes. >You win some, you lose some. > >sighing, >phoebe > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:55:24 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f In-Reply-To: <2109053@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was posting last night to another list about the Industrial Revolution in Russia. Our history professor had compared the U.S.S.R. to a corporation with the premier as the CEO and the party leaders as the board of directors. It was his premise that modernization/industrialization was such a gut-wrenching ordeal for the peasantry that it could only be accomplished from the top down. Starting with Peter the Great and then Lenin and Stalin, modernization could only be done by decree. Maybe, and this is just idle musing, maybe democracy is not much mentioned in the far future because we are not gut sure that democracy can carry us to those 'futures". We went to the moon by Kennedy's "decree" in a race against Soviet "despots." After that our democracy was hardly willing to cough up a nickle for the space program. Maybe it will take corporate or political autocrats to drag us to the stars. Not a happy thought, eh? Rebecca At 10:21 PM 11/10/98 CST, you wrote: >I also just finished reading "Stainless Steel Rat for President". :) Not >_serious_, but still SF that talks about democracy. > > -Sandy > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tanya M. Bouwman-Wozencraft [SMTP:TMBouwman@AOL.COM] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 3:04 PM >> To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Democracies in sf/f >> >> In a message dated 98-11-08 16:59:54 EST, you write: >> >> << It's true, I can't really think of ANY science fiction books that even >> mention voting as a political process (except for Heinlein's *Starship >> Troopers* which presents a very weird vision of democracy). >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:18:32 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen ->Tiamat In-Reply-To: <2109364@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, thanks much, I knew it was something along those lines. But where Tiamat crossed paths with the Snow Queen. . . It could be a Summer thing, but we don't know, do we? Is there an explanation that I've missed? We have Sumarian references and pre-Celtic references and an Indian caste system in a science fiction novel based on a Danish literary fairy tale. And I know I'm old and cranky, but I'm just not enjoying this book the way I used to. Rebecca At 12:59 AM 11/11/98 CST, you wrote: >Rebecca wrote: > >>And would somebody do me a favor and >>look up the mythological reference for >>"Tiamat" and tell me how THAT relates >>to the Snow Queen. > >Rebecca: > >Here's the entry for the goddess "Tiamat" in Jessica Amanda Salmonson's >ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMAZONS: WOMEN WARRIORS FROM ANTIQUITY TO THE MODERN >ERA: > > >"Tiamat": Ceto in Greece, "Rahab" to the Hebrews. In one of the oldest >surviving religious texts, ENUMA ELISH (WHEN ON HIGH) of Babylonia, >about the second millennium B.C., the Dragon-goddess Tiamat overthrows >the assembly of gods. They afterward elect a new, young god as their >hero: > > When Tiamat heard the challenge > She became as one possessed; > She became beserk > She recited spells > While the gods of battle polished their steel. > Then joined Tiamat and Marduck, the young god. > They strove in single combat, locked in battle. > >This is essentially a myth of the overthrow of the Mother-goddess and >the rise of patriarchal rule, evoking an earlier time of women's rule. >In other ancient texts, including the Torah, the original Creatrix is >likened to Chaos, whose voice called forth the world, and the >patriarchal god wrestles her into submission in order to establish his >rule over the cosmos. See "Eurynome" for a parallel goddess. [Heidel] > > >--Sharon Clark > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:54:38 -0800 Reply-To: lynnx@mc.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather Law Organization: Interstellar Trading Company Subject: voting as political process MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since you mention Heinlein, what about Double Star? Entirely about the democratic political process. Carol Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:10:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen In-Reply-To: <2109837@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >2) Especially to people on this list, seems odd we wouldn't accept that there might be a non-human "race" with their own agenda, culture, and a basically benign attitude towards humans. The mers were being slaughtered--drowned and butchered--for a milenium. Personally I would think that "the human problem" would be high on their agenda. But even if most of them were "out there" doing their mer thing, I suggested that the less evolved among them--the roughnecks, the tone deaf,the got-no-rhythym mers--might want to have a talk with Winters. >4) Why is violence a mark of "intelligence"? Never suggested that violence was a mark of intelligence. "Communication" is a mark of intelligence. "Self-assertion" is a mark of intelligence. I grew up with the Civil Rights movement. People faced fire hoses. People faced police dogs and batons and tear gas. People came together to assert their humanity, their right to dignity. Cetaceans don't seem capable of coming together to protest the pollution of the oceans, global warming, and the destruction of their food chain. As far as we know, they are not trying to figure out how to communicate with us. They are not training us to be better global citizens. I'm going out on a limb and say the ability to alter one's culture or agenda in the face of peril is a mark intelligence--and humans don't rank very high on that scale. As we saw with the mers and with whales and with dolphins, a failure to alter one's culture and agenda will most likely lead to extinction. Rebecca > Human societies with a belief in reincarnation, or those >who think it might someday be possible to preserve a mind in cyberspace once >the body has decayed, are postulating a kind of live-forever idea. I believe in reincarnation myself, and I would like clean and clean water and old growth forest when I get back. No fun living forever if we've created hell on earth. Also I have some extremely funky ideas about the fate of the human race when wolves can no longer reincarnate as wolves and rhinos can no longer come back as rhinos and tigers can't come back as tigers because THEY ARE ALL DEAD. It's not good news for people. . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:49:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: childhood books / parents / democrac In-Reply-To: <2111395@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nobody has mentioned Mary Poppins. I picked up Mary right after I saw the Disney movie and put her down again. What a bitch! When I was in my late thirties I read a book called _Pipers at the Gates of Dawn_ which looked at Travers, Graham (Wind in the Willows), Longren (sp?) (Pippi Longstocking) and probably Barrie (Peter Pan). And I went back to Travers and found her deliciously subversive and full of goddess imagery. I've got the set on the bookshelf now; I have to re-read them before I wrap them for Christmas. My first science fiction novel was Andre Norton's _Star Rangers_ or _The Last Planet_ depending upon which edition you find. I adored Zinga the Zacathan! I read it again last fall. I'm old and crusty, but the book still holds a polish! The ending still gave me goosebumps and tears. I had fifty Andre Norton books. Think I still have most of them. Adult sf: I remember _Glory Road_ by Heinlein had nudity and a woman with big bazooms. Shocking! I read a lot of Verne, but I was never fond of the sf books. I liked Around the World in 80 Days, Journey to the Center of the Earth, Michael Stroganoff, a novelization of Eight Weeks in a Balloon. I also read _When Worlds Collide_ and _After Worlds Collide_. It seems like I went from _I, Robot_ to William Tenn to Harlan Ellison, but I know I read some Blish, L'Engle, Simak, Sturgeon. I treasured an absurd set of time travel books: Agents of T.E.R.R.A. The Atlan series by Jane Gaskell. I was eighteen when I picked up those. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:04:48 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: OT (again!) Statistics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 12 Nov 98, at 16:43, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > Not sure if you were addressing this question to me or Kathleen. If it was > me... no, I certainly do not reject science itself. It's my opinion that > sociobiology is a "pseudo-science". My feelings about it are completely > separate from my respect for and practice of scientific principles. Janice, it was just that you hit on a sore-point - a time I was unwittingly involved in dubious research. Amongst other things during my 5 months in the US, I taught a researcher how to use Statistica and SPSS for the quantitative part of a project on relationships formed in "singles' bars". As part of my "reward" I was allowed to help with some of the qualitative bits. On the surface singles' bars are cheerful friendly places, but underneath, I think, many people there are lonely and vulnerable, frenetically searching for meaningful relationships in places where they're only likely to get abusive ones. At first it was "good fun" - until after a few weeks I realised how the researcher was manipulating the hopes and fears of vulnerable people just to be able to write a few papers. What really made me ashamed though is how disgustingly superior I felt to our unfortunate victims. On "sociobiology": I hope you heard my applause . Edward O Wilson is a fine writer and scientist - so why is it that _Sociobiology : the new synthesis_ left a bad taste in my mouth? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) _____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:07:19 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: "the question of what guys are" (was: Bujold) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 12 Nov 98, at 16:15, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > << post hoc propter ergo hoc >> > OK. I admit it. I haven't taken latin since 1968. What DOES this mean? "after this, therefore because of this" - highlights the fallacy that because one event occurs before another, the second event must be caused by the first. "Hoc" is "this" - I thought that no person who studied Latin could ever forget "hic, haec, hoc". I still have nightmares about the good Brothers of Charity beating it into me . Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) __________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:21:01 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Willshaw Subject: Re: Democracies in sf/f/kim stanley robinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Kate Willshaw wrote: > Marina said > > >Oooh. I think he's great! I really really enjoyed "Antarctica". > Friends >I didn't say that :). It was someone else. Not that I object -- I >just have not read that book yet. >Marina OOOOPS!.....Sorry Marina! Kate (a new list member getting a bit to cocky about this posting lark!) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:46:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: Children's Books; "Another Generation" In-Reply-To: <364798DD.9F92F79D@kdn0.attnet.or.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, JoAnn wrote: > Had anyone else read _Mrs Pickerel Goes to Mars_? I would like to know > who the author was, and I can't find the title on any internet book > searches :-( > I loved the Mrs Pickerel books. There was a series, including Mrs Pickerel in a submarine, in various geological situations, in outer space. I've never met anyone who had heard of these books, and the elementary school that had them in library is now closed down. I also read the *Moonbeam* series, about a chimp in space. If anyone knows this one, I'd love to find these books again. It's a relief to know that I didn't just make up these books in my head!!! Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:27:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erik Tsao Subject: teaching _Dhalgren_ with Detroit Techno Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a question for all you listserv participants. I'm going to be teaching Samuel Delany's _Dhalgren_ in conjunction with an Intermediate Writing course focused on popular music and the city. The unit in which _Dhalgren_ will be important concerns Detroit Techno. Any sugestions for activities, while teaching this long and difficult novel, which will keep it fresh and exciting to the students? Erik Tsao Graduate Student/T.A. Dept. of English 51 W. Warren Wayne State University Detroit, MI 48202 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:40:22 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: vampire jobs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Someone noted: "The problem with immortality is that you never get to quit your job and retire. It's like those vampire stories...what do those guys do for money besides bite folks and turn into bats?" ONe of my favorite vampire series is by Tanya Huff: the vampire in that series (who is a "good guy" not an evil monster) is the bastard son of Henry VIII and is currently (20th century Canada) writing romance novels.....hee hee hee. He is not the protagonist of the series--a woman who is a medically retired (bad eyesight) police officer is. Huff provides contemporary 'retellings' of all the standard horror 'plots' (demons, vampires, the mummy, frankenstein, werewolves--I esp. love the werewolf one)--heartily recommended. We haven't touched on this recently (?) or as I recall, but there are a number of what I consdier to be feminist vampire stories circulating out there these days... Robin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:09:28 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: vampire jobs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/98 2:41:14 PM, Robin wrote: <> Anyone out there following the Laurell K. Hamilton series? phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:18:17 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper / teachers int he family / requoting messages / childhood reads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love Sheri Tepper and didn't know she wrote under a pseudonym. Can you give me the name and titles? THanks! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: OT Latin madness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>> Mike Stanton wrote: "Hoc" is "this" - I thought that no person who studied Latin could ever forget "hic, haec, hoc". I still have nightmares about the good Brothers of Charity beating it into me . My college Latin professor used to jump up on a desk and make us do it like a football cheer at least once a week. "Hic! Haec! Hoc!" "Huis, huis, huis!" "Everyone join in!" "Now just the guys!" "Now just the women!" Argggg.... That's something that's going to stay with me for life. ;-) Debra ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:34:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: Tepper's _Marianne_ Trilogy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some people seemed to like my little description of some of Bujold's work, and we've started a new Tepper thread, so I thought I'd put some comments on her early trilogy published by Ace. I have no idea if they're in print yet, but there are always used book sources--and things do sometimes come back into print. I wish I could remember if I found one of the Peter novels first or the first Marianne--but I do remember falling in love with the first book at the start, and still love reading it. It's more a fantasy than science fiction. SPOILER ALERT: WHAT FOLLOWS IS PLOT DESCRIPTION AND SOME THOUGHTS ON THE FEMINIST AND 'UTOPIAN' MOMENTS IN THE MARIANNE TRILOGY * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * _Marianne, The Magus, and the Manticore_ (Ace, 1985): is the first in the "Marianne" trilogy. Marianne is the child of two immigrants from the small country of Alpenlicht. When she is a child, her parents are killed by exercise of the shamanistic or black magic practiced by Madame Delubovska, ruler of Lubovosk (small part of Alpenlicht cut off and under control of Soviet Union)and Harvey, Marianne's half brother. When Marianne meets the current Prime Minister of Alpenlicht, Makr Avehl, she becomes more of a threat to Madame and Harvey who had been content simply to steal her large inheritance (left in trust until she marries or turns thirty). Marianne is transported to a shadow world, or false workd, where she must regain her own strength which she has repressed throughout much of her life in the course of the novel--and she does, facing down the "monster" Harvey in her own shadow world, and defeating Madame for the moment. She is also able to use what she has observed Madame doing to return to her own past, be reborn again, and stop Harvey from killing her parents. That is the subject of the second book in the trilogy which "loops" back to show Marianne's second childhood--although the last chapter of this novel shows Makr Avehl finding the grown-up Marianne again. The presentation of Makr Avehl in this book is interesting: in Marianne's shadow world, he takes on the form of a tripartite character, Chimera, consisting of Lion (lustful masculine rampant), Goat (intellectual, analytical, the Magus controlling), and Snake (paranoid, venomous, spiteful). Utopian elements: Alpenlicht, described as a small country hidden high in a mountainous area between the USSR, Turkey, Iran etc. that was settled by the Magi in the 3rd century A.D. Has never had a war. The Cave of Light--advice/help. Magical kinds of abilities, especially among the Kavi. Hereditary nobility/theocracy--but presented as a wonderful place to live. Feminist elements: issue of family. Marianne remembers her parents fondly and happily, but obviously pure patriarchal structure (Papa Zahmani knows what is best for little girl, money is left tied up, and when parents are killed by Harvey, half brother, he controls money--he also tries to rape the 13 year old Marianne at her mother's funeral.) _Marianne, The Madame, and the Momentary Gods (Ace, 1988)_ is the 'second' in the trilogy, if we can use any such linear numbering system for books which circle around and back on themselves. In this novel, you see Marianne's second childhood in which the "disembodied consciousness" that was Marianne in the first book travels "back" to her own childhood, using a method she learned from Madame, to change what had happened. The second Marianne, advised by the first, avoids the death of her parents, but is still threatened by Madame who sends her, as an adult, to another false world. The first Marianne had allowed for this eventuality by choosing five "momegs" or momentary gods, all doglike in shape, to act for her against Harvey and Madame. The momegs are not dismissed by the first or second Marianne, and come to help her in the false world. Makr Avehl and Agrehond travel there, in the guise of Prince Charming and his steed, and they all determine they must act against Madame once and for all, though not through killing. The momegs (both a wave and a particle, the elementary building blocks of nature personified?) are an interesting aspect (page 53), as is the concept of space/turf and the false worlds. The group uses the existence of the two Mariannes, indicated typographically in the text (the first is always in italics); Madame is invited to their wedding dinner, and tries to take them over using a "vengeance fish" from the false world. She had named everyone but the first Marianne who is able to act by taking the time-bender which allows Madame to access the power of the momegs (by destroying them). Marianne goes back into her childhood a third time--bringing all the split lives/consciousness back together at the end when she weds Makr Avehl. Feminist: undercuts the notion of males rescuing females in all sorts of ways, and shows women with major power. Utopian: not really very much--the "happy family" Marianne regains for herself weakens her, in a very real sense, and it is only when the two blend that the conflict is resolved. _Marianne, the Matchbox, and the Malachite Mouse_ (Ace, 1989) is perhaps the final novel in the trilogy only because Tepper has not published any more--there is not any final 'resolution' in any traditional sense. Madame Delubovska is no longer a threat--in this novel, Marianne is happily married and pregnant. But when she is seven months pregnant, she gets an appeal from her Great-Aunt Dagma, the only one in her family to realize there have been three "Mariannes." Dagma is dying, but there is an unresolved problem left over from her father--a talisman that must be returned, or the whole family will lose their lives and souls. The talisman is a gold matchbox with an anchor, and Marianne unwittingly takes the first steps toward returning it by playing what looks like a child's game. The game takes you to another dimension, Cattermune's, controlled by a demon. Dagma and Agrehond follow her to help her after alerting Makr Avehl who also travels to Cattermune's dimension. The group finally achieves the goal (returning the talisman which cuts off Cattermune's access to their world, and his kidnapping of people to hunt), but along the way Marianne experiences a number of things through the game--especially a long time spent in the consciousness of "Buttercup," a Grisl who becomes Queen despite a failed attempt to rig a ritual combat. Grisl society is female dominant. Marianne, still pregnant in the game, suceeds on her own until meeting up with Dagma, Agrehond, and Makr Avehl; all of them are in different forms and have trouble remembering their former lives. Feminist: the look at a female dominant culture which uses the same arguments for and rhetoric about female superiority that are used for male superiority in human cultures, and an ironic retelling of the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale in Grisl society (Honsl, a printer, meets up with Buttercup, a Grisl and so forth). Utopian: while Alphenlicht is still sort of 'there' as the nearest thing to a utopian society, little or no narrative time is ever spent there in any of the three novels. The Cave of Light plays an important role. Marianne has certainly achieved her full power--pregnancy and marriage do not interfere with that. In fact, her power is such that Makr Avehl, throughout the trilogy, is always a bit wary of her. Her power comes from being a Kavi, a hereditary ruling class in Alpenlicht. Therat and Ellat, other female characters in the series, show that Tepper, even early on had no problems creating women of power and intelligence who may or may not marry but do not worry either way to act in her novels. Class is another issue that is raised by the existence of a hereditary ruling class, though they seem to be presented very positively, as is the "theocracy" of Alpenlicht. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:42:58 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: intelligence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S.M. Stirling wrote: > > Frankly, I've never seen any real evidence that any cetacean species is > smarter than a smart dog, and those are among the toothed whales. The > baleen whales are like cows with fins -- it doesn't take much in the way > of brains to sneak up on krill. This give me pause (paws?)... I realize that this thread is about the supposed intelligence of our cetacean friends. However, the tone of this comment reminds me of a pet peeve of mine: how much more do we like, admire, respect intelligence than, say, compassion? how much more do we care about someone because they seem to be more intelligent than others? This is, IMO, a real prejudice in our society. Given that we understand intelligence at all, or that we can point to something and say, "this is what i mean when i say, 'intelligence'", or that there is only one or only a few types of intelligences, why does this matter more than, say, a sense of personal responsibility? or perseverance? or social conscience? Were I vegetarian (which I haven't been for a while), would I be considered less intelligent because I don't have to 'sneak up' on a carrot? (admittedly, an absurd comparison with the krill comment) Why is it okay to kill a cow for food, and not a dog? It seems that we don't want to admit that we are as much emotional creatures as intellectual creatures. It seems the quanifying things makes us feel better. I'm talking about myself, here. I want certainties. But the fact is, we just don't know how intelligent cetaceans are, and it's really irrelevant to their value. But I would not be surprised if, some time in the far future, they did begin to speak to us. It's not often that something happening on today's earth really surprises me, anymore. This is why I love science fiction. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:29:30 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: genrification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question about whether feminist-, soft-, or social-sf is 'true' sf is raised periodically and has always fascinated me. I think it's interesting that SF, most academics agree, began with Frankenstein. Of course, science is the vehicle for the creation of the monster. And, without the science, the story, as written, would fall apart (but could possibly have been told another way). However, the story is a morality tale, told by a woman. I'm curious about this: how important it is to others how something is labeled before they read it? I have always enjoyed a wide range of genres (except for romance, and 'splatterpunk'). I would not have been upset if, for example, I picked up The Sparrow (labeled 'fiction' by Fawcett) in the mainstream fiction section, and saw that science is very much a vehicle for the story. However, I know people who, if I were to tell them The Sparrow was SF, would never pick it up. As for me, most of my reading is the result of recommendations. I rarely pick up a book I've never heard of, regardless of where it sits on the bookstore or library shelves. (For example, I would never have purchased David Weber's On Basilisk Station if I had not heard about it here!) Time is too precious to spend reading something I won't appreciate on some level, and I've made that mistake too many times. I was surprised that such a question was raised here, but I'm glad it was. Apparently, it matters quite a bit whether feminist sf is considered 'real' sf, or not. I would like to read more comments from others. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:43:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debra Euler Subject: the nature of the genres Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain John Bertland wrote: >>>Do you mean that SF and fantasy are together one big tent, that is, a single genre? Continuing the circus tent image (where I got that from, I don't know), I guess I look at the genres as a two ring circus, each with its own action going on under the big tent. We can divvy them up any way you like--lots of people think that SF has ray guns, spaceships, and other planets, and fantasy has magic and wizards. But I don't think there's a lot to be gained by arguing what are the exact differences between the genres, because there's so much crossover. Just to use two examples from my own company, we've got Darkover, which has magic but is set on another planet in an otherwise standard SF universe, and CS Friedman's Coldfire books, set on a planet where the humans (survivors of a crashed spacecraft) can work what we would call magic. The biggest decision for us was whether to use the DAW SF or the DAW fantasy logo on the covers--the texts stand for themselves. >>There was little in the rest of the post to indicate why you would conceptionally combine them like that, so I'm really just being curious. I bunched them together as part of the larger ongoing discussion we've been having lately about the divisions between the genres: What's magic realism? What's SF? Mostly, I think the divisions are there to market the books to the fans most likely to buy the books. Diana Gabaldon's Outlander books, which have time travel and other speculative fiction elements, are classified as Romance--which upsets many of the series's fans, who think they should be classified as something "better" than romance--like "general fiction". Borges is considered magic realism because his work is more "literary" than most fantasy, and because he probably wouldn't appeal to the average Terry Goodkind fan (please, no flames from TG fans defending their literary honor). IMHO, the most important thing is to read what you like; worrying too much about which genre you're reading takes up too much valuable reading time. Debra ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:28:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: vampire jobs In-Reply-To: <45ab289d.364c59b8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > Anyone out there following the Laurell K. Hamilton series? I am. If you are on the LKH e-list then you probably know more about my opinion on the series then you ever wanted to hear. I like the series. Strong female protagonist, action packed, interesting plots. The first three books are the best. After the 4th book, though, the series starts to decline IMHO. > phoebe > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:42:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OT -Trapped on the list Comments: To: Garret Virchick In-Reply-To: <364B51EA.342C@bostonabcd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think I have an idea how this could have happened. If a person subsribes him/herself to the list, and then creates a .forward file in their home directory, which would contain nothing more than another email address, then all the mail received in that maibox will be automatically forwarded to that second address. Even if it belongs to another person who had never subscribed to the list (nor can they unsubscribe, since _their_ address does not appear at the listserve, they receive it through a third, forwarding party). Internet terrorism? Do you folks think someone could use our discussion to try getting back on someone? Science fiction, huh? Marina On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Garret Virchick wrote: > How do I get off this list?...I did what was asked and I get a message > that says there is no record of this account and I got another 100 > messages that I just cant begin to start looking through. > > I WANT OFF THIS LIST>>>>>>I FEEL I AM IN A BLACK HOLE AND CANT GET OUT > > TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST OR TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > AND THEN TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:05:29 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: OT: trouble getting off the list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You might try sending mail to: LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu with the message: REVIEW FEMINISTSF (that will have to be in the body of the message, not the subject line) That'll give you a listing of everyone on the list (minus people who're concealed, but that's probably not a big deal. You may be able to find a former email address of your own which is forwarding to you. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:08:20 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: OT (again!) Statistics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >In a message dated 12 Nov 98, at 16:43, Janice E. Dawley wrote: >It's my opinion that sociobiology is a "pseudo-science". My feelings about it are completely separate from my respect for and practice of scientific principles. >> -- actually, I also think sociobiology as presently constituted is a pseudo- science given to non-falsifiable hypotheses. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:17:03 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: vampire jobs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/98 7:41:14 AM Mountain Standard Time, Robin_Reid@TAMU-COMMERCE.EDU writes: >I esp. love the werewolf one)--heartily recommended.> -- heartily recommended here as well; they're a hoot, and very skillfully done. The werewolves run a sheep farm, and were involved in the Dutch Resistance during WWII. ("they're very territorial", as one character remarks.) She does a beautiful job of showing 'humans' who have rather 'doggy' natures, pack organization, scent-clues and all. Fiona Patton (Tanya's partner) has also done a very nice fantasy series ("The Stone Prince") which has a strong feminist subtext. End of plug for old friends... 8-) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:52:23 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: OT Latin madness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-13 11:33:55 EST, you write: << My college Latin professor used to jump up on a desk and make us do it like a football cheer at least once a week. "Hic! Haec! Hoc!" "Huis, huis, huis!" "Everyone join in!" "Now just the guys!" "Now just the women!" Argggg.... That's something that's going to stay with me for life. ;-) Debra >> Mother St. Barbara (8th grade) used to make us march in the halls chanting this (...huic, huic, huic!), pronouns, and declensions. I can still do them in my sleep. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:49:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Writer requesting book references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would Heinlein's "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" qualify for the kidnap/wrench/struggle? The heroine (was she called Peewee??) was an incredibly gutsy little girl, as I recall. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:38:27 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Kristine Kathryn Rusch's "Faith" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For anyone who's never read any of KKR's work, this short story is an ideal introduction. I can't given even the remotest hint of what it's about without spoiling it but I strongly urge anyone who can, to read it. It persuaded me to read _The New Rebellion - Star Wars_ (very enjoyable) on the plane this afternoon; I'm going to re-try _Alien influences_ when I go to bed tonight. I'd really enjoy reading a feminist analysis of "Faith" by (say) Robin Reid or Janice E Dawley. The short story is in _Alternate tyrants [differing destinies for deviant despots]_ (edited by Mike Resnik, 1997). The volume also contains "Children of Tears" by Adrienne Gormley (excellent), "Amandla" by Laura Resnik (very good), Maureen F McHugh's "The Lincoln Train" (superb) and 16 others. The _Alternate..._ series (_~ Presidents_, _~ Kennedys_, _~ Warriors_, _~ Outlaws_) are *intelligent* alternate history anthologies which will very probably appeal to many people on this list. They're also good for travelling; the stories are each short enough to read in 10 minutes, but meaty enough to mull over for an hour while standing in a queue. Almost better than "snooze-time problems"! Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk _____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:38:27 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: vampire jobs In-Reply-To: <45ab289d.364c59b8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 11/13/98 2:41:14 PM, Robin wrote: > > < there are a number of what I consdier to be feminist vampire stories > circulating out there these days...>> > > Anyone out there following the Laurell K. Hamilton series? > > phoebe > Yes, indeed: I am on the seventh I think) -- BLUE MOON -- now, having greatly enjoyed the previous ones in the series. They get better and better. Edward James ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:48:35 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: vampire jobs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/98 6:28:28 PM, Stacey wrote, re Laurell K Hamilton: <> They just started feeling -- grubby is the only word I can find. I loved the first and second one. Interesting premise. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:27:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen In-Reply-To: <2109837@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >2) Especially to people on this list, seems odd we wouldn't accept that >there might be a non-human "race" with their own agenda, culture, and a >basically benign attitude towards humans. Actually this is an answer I could live with. If there was a purpose to their lives--their purpose--that transcended the extinction of their species and the destruction of their environment, then I could celebrate them and mourn them. But we don't know if they are victims of their own vision or martyrs. Perhaps they are so evolved that they don't draw a distinction between the living and the dead members of their species. Maybe us poor, ignorant creatures are the ones who suffer their loss. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:54:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/98 4:21:07 AM, Rebecca wrote: <> In our search for a more equitable society, seems to me that Gandhi was right -- how we treat animals reflects how we treat each other. In the case of the cetaceans under question here, we kill them in painful ways. Under pressure, and with a world-wide conservation effort, commercial whaling was stopped for awhile. It is coming back (so are the whales). But, as to your argument, it doesn't seem reasonable to me to then say, poor beknighted creatures, they never learned how to make us stop killing them. Ah well, they just didn't get it. lightly lightly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:11:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: OT (again!) Statistics In-Reply-To: <802566BA.00726618.00@rebel10.postmaster.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Mike Stanton wrote: > On 12 Nov 98, at 9:51, Keith wrote: > > > My favorite mis-correlation, from a beginning > > statistics class, is the one that said the stork > > brought the babies. .[snip].. The class spent > > some time trying to figure out the real correlation; > > I think they arrived at greater prosperity = more > > coal to burn = warmer chimneys [= more storks] as > > well as being able to afford more children. > > Doesn't your example (at least at first glance) show that this wasn't just > a simple "mis-correlation"? Although the explanation "more storks = more > children" was obviously flawed, a statistician would have investigated > further and come up with the economic explanations for the "more children" > and "warmer chimneys = more storks". Your example shows that if two > phenomena are found to be correlated, an investigator must be careful to > ensure that the correlation is direct, and doesn't occur because the two > phenomena have a common explanation. > The mis-correlation I meant was the popular, *non* statistician view that storks brought babies. No statistician would have made that leap, I think it's safe to say. And advertisers aren't statisticians either - just vultures. My little example was on the mis-use of statistics for or by untrained people. To bring it back to the original subject, I believe the correlation between brain size and innate intellegence was an invalid use of statistics aimed at a lay audience to give bigotry a scientific gloss. When (if?) professionals misuse statistics, it's pretty hard for an ordinary person like myself to tell when they're being imposed on. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:01:46 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/98 9:56:51 PM Mountain Standard Time, Zozie@AOL.COM writes: >In the case of the cetaceans under question here, we kill them in painful ways.> -- have you ever seen what a pod of orcas do to a right whale? They eat it alive, one bite at a time. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:56:53 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Trouble and her friends -- some spoilers In-Reply-To: <71a3af17.364d1cca@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just finished reading this book by Melissa Scott, and I loved it. It is _way_ better written than the _Shadow Man_, and the descriptions of virtual reality would make _Snow Crash_ and other trash of that sort look even more bleak and primitive. Trouble and Her Friends has great characters, captivating plot, and realistic presentation -- everything that makes it one of the best sf adventure stories I ever read. Besides, the attitude of the "mainstream" hackers (mostly white, male, and rich) towards women and queers who also use "brainworm" I think was a great example of how even people who consider themselves extremely progressive can be just as arrogant and sexist jerks as their less educated fellow male chauvinists. Kind of reminded me of certain individuals on the list who dismiss anyone's opinion as inadequate from the heights of their imaginary expertise drawn from completely irrelevant academic knowledge. The intellectual snobs, you know. The "go read all the works existing on the subject plus study all the hard sciences as I did before you dare to argue with me" ones. Melissa Scott's book show that those kind of smug types still dominate the society in the remote future. Which is kind of sad. It's true that it is so much fun to read a book where they exist only as a unique genetical abberation, like in Samuel Delaney's _Triton_, and even there fail miserably as they deserve. However, the idea that there will still be a lot of gender, race, and sex-preference inequality even in a hundred years is probably more realistic. What's important, though, is that despite all that socially-enforced crap, the heroes of this book succeed against all odds. Even when Trouble realizes that her enemies will never give her credit for her victory over the evil guy, simply because it's impossible for them to admit that "some dyke" could have beaten the "greatest man" they all admired without some technological foul play, she still goes into the fight. The majority of people might be idiots, but it's not a reason not to do what has to be done. Those of you who read only Shadow Man of Scott's work and hated it -- this one is very, very different. Give it a shot -- you might find it worth it. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:03:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: marie Subject: Re: OT Latin madness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bless your cotton socks! and I thought mine was odd! Marie > In a message dated 98-11-13 11:33:55 EST, you > write: > > << My college Latin professor used to jump up on > a desk and make us do > it like a football cheer at least once a week. > "Hic! Haec! Hoc!" > "Huis, huis, huis!" "Everyone join in!" "Now > just the guys!" "Now > just the women!" Argggg.... > > That's something that's going to stay with me > for life. ;-) > > Debra > >> > > Mother St. Barbara (8th grade) used to make us > march in the halls chanting > this (...huic, huic, huic!), pronouns, and > declensions. I can still do them > in my sleep. > > Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:12:57 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/98 6:16:05 AM, you wrote: <<- have you ever seen what a pod of orcas do to a right whale? They eat it alive, one bite at a time. >> No I haven't. I doubt that you have either. Right whales are the most endangered of whale species. Orcas have been seen attacking other large whales -- grays, humpbacks. I don't know of any reports of attacks on rights, but it is certainly possible. And then, how else would they kill them? -- AK47s are hard for them to handle. And the point is -- they eat them, isn't it? This is OT. Sorry, friends. It was/is not my intention to discuss whales (we were talking originally about mers). And I don't want to get into a discussion of "they kill" too. I was bringing up the point that any number of species on our planet have remarkable social structures and quirks that are as fascinating as some of the "alien" societies we encounter in SF/F. And the further point that we humans have some queer ideas about what constitutes intelligence in non-humans. lightly, lightly, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:42:20 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: Trouble and her friends -- some spoilers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Marina wrote: [snip] > Trouble and Her Friends has great characters, captivating plot, and > realistic presentation -- everything that makes it one of the best sf > adventure stories I ever read. Besides, the attitude of the "mainstream" > hackers (mostly white, male, and rich) towards women and queers who also > use "brainworm" I think was a great example of how even people who > consider themselves extremely progressive can be just as arrogant and > sexist jerks as their less educated fellow male chauvinists. i read about 3/4 of "trouble" this summer. unfortunately, i somehow managed to lose it in the shuffle of moving from oregon to michigan. what i did read, i liked, but i found this aspect of the book to be rather heavy-handed and simplistic. IMHO. on the other hand, i *loved* having a cyberpunk book featuring *dykes* as the real protagonists! and i agree that scott's description of the net, the brainworm hardware, etc. was very well-thought out. i lent my then-bf a copy of gibson's "neuromancer" to read last year, and his biggest complaint was that the hardware required to interface to the net seemed unrealistically simple. i've recommended "trouble" for contrast, though i think he'll probably find it even more heavy-handed than i did. > Kind of > reminded me of certain individuals on the list who dismiss anyone's > opinion as inadequate from the heights of their imaginary expertise drawn > from completely irrelevant academic knowledge. The intellectual snobs, > you know. The "go read all the works existing on the subject plus > study all the hard sciences as I did before you dare to argue with me" > ones. ok, this was *totally* uncalled for and unnecessary. can we keep our personal vendettas off-list? i'm grouchy enough on saturday mornings as it is. -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:48:10 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/98 10:16:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, JoatSimeon@AOL.COM writes: << have you ever seen what a pod of orcas do to a right whale? They eat it alive, one bite at a time. >> Yes, but they also do it one right whale at a time. And they eat it because they have to. I delicately remind that, !., we kill wholesale and outside of all natural systems of checks and balances and, 2., we don't need to. There isn't anything from whales that we need to survive. Has anyone heard about the Orcas eating otters because the seal populations have gotten so low? With the otters gone the sea urchins will multiply and there goes the kelp forests (this has happened before, when otters were hunted for pelt). Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:52:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/98 10:49:26 AM Mountain Standard Time, DMadrone@AOL.COM writes: >Yes, but they also do it one right whale at a time. -- orcas are broad-spectrum predators. They eat everything that moves, from fish to blue whales; they swim, eat and make little orcas, and that's about it. Excessive whaling was a bad thing, yes. >Has anyone heard about the Orcas eating otters because the seal populations have gotten so low? -- Orcas eat anything they can catch and always have. Incidentally, seal populations are up sharply and growing fast. There are millions of the suckers up along Labrador, since they stopped the annual seal harvest. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:49:44 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG Snow Queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rebecca wrote: If there was a purpose to > their lives--their purpose--that transcended the extinction of their > species and the destruction of their environment, then I could celebrate > them and mourn them. But we don't know if they are victims of their own > vision or martyrs. Perhaps they are so evolved that they don't draw a > distinction between the living and the dead members of their species. > Maybe us poor, ignorant creatures are the ones who suffer their loss. > I think you make an interesting argument in this post and your last, and it got me thinking about the book again. In your last post you mentioned that intelligence was linked to communicating and a desire for civil rights, etc. I thought about how many great people I know who do none of this activism, and how many people who lack political conciousness still do amazing things in the world. (Although a progressive conciousness doesn't hurt!) :) Going back to The Snow Queen-- Attitudes towards technology are polarized in the book between the Summers and the Winters. But the mers are a third part of the equation-- they are linked to technology-- the sybil source is a "machine" of some kind, but the mers, although they are now organic, spiritual entities with intelligence, were the product of bio engineering. It is interesting that it took a Summer Queen, a person from the non-tech culture, who is close to the mysterious, earthly presence of the sea, to (partially) realize the mer's significance. The mer's similarity to dolphins, etc. has engendered an OT thread that I think is relevant to the book. There are things in this world which carry information for us which may not seem "scientific" enough to be relevant, at least initially. I know this is a vague statement, but as long as we compare certain phenomena to our own static world views, we may be missing this information. The argument I'm making here is spritual in nature, and I fear many on the list may not have patience with it as such. But the Snow Queen brings up these questions through the themes of immortality and the mers. If we are to prioritize science over spritual information, as the Snow Queen did murdering the mers to be immortal, we are, in a way, creating the universe in our one image ( the Queen cloning herself). As a spiritual reality, that's a pretty dim prospect. The book seems to argue that fate (hence the central character of the mask-maker) plays a large role in human's lives, and Moon ends up renewing the planet, awakening it, despite the Snow Queen's intentions. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:42:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: looking for author Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit fssf Does anyone here know how to contact Midori Snyder? hopefully, phoebe wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:12:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: vampire jobs In-Reply-To: <47ce9bc7.364cb743@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 11/13/98 6:28:28 PM, Stacey wrote, re Laurell K Hamilton: > > <> > > They just started feeling -- grubby is the only word I can find. I loved the > first and second one. Interesting premise. The violence has really escalated and at least two books had rape scenes. I'm still sticking with the series, though, because the alternate universe is very interesting and I really like some of the characters. I like LKH's writing style. I really hope she can get things back on track. > phoebe > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:47:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Trouble and her friends -- some spoilers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Marina wrote: (snip) > Besides, the attitude of the "mainstream" hackers (mostly white, male, > and rich) towards women and queers who also use "brainworm" I think > was a great example of how even people who consider themselves > extremely progressive can be just as arrogant and sexist jerks as > their less educated fellow male chauvinists. This is the one aspect of the book that I found heavy handed and unrealistic. I've met enough hackers to know that they would implant entire computers in their heads if it was possible and in spite of any dangers. If something like the brainworm actually existed, the vast majority of hackers and wannabees would run right out and get one. Characterizing all of the straight male hackers as chauvinists rang false for me especially when ones sex (not to mention ones sexual preferences) is pretty difficult to figure out in cyberspace. I've been mistaken for male on several occasions on the internet and it didn't make any difference when people found out that I am female. I also didn't like the attitude that all straight men are narrow minded and prejudiced against gays (that's the feeling that I got-- someone else might see things differently). (snip) > Even when Trouble realizes that her enemies will never give her credit > for her victory over the evil guy, simply because it's impossible for > them to admit that "some dyke" could have beaten the "greatest man" > they all admired without some technological foul play, she still goes > into the fight. The majority of people might be idiots, but it's not > a reason not to do what has to be done. Trouble didn't -need- credit for her victory. She won. She ended up with a cyber kingdom. And those involved knew exactly who defeated the bad guy and appreciate what she did. Why would she need validation from a bunch of losers? > Marina Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com)