Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9811E" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:42:52 +0000 Reply-To: iaudio@worldlynx.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lou Judson Organization: Intuitive Audio Subject: Re: Tepper and Euripides etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Could you please forward this to Ms. Bradley? Your reply was the first message I got when I signed on to the list. Thank you very much! - Lou) Hello! I am brand new to this list, although I've been reading SF (and seeking feminist SF) since i was very young (in 1962!) I've never heard of this but would like to see it - I do love Ms Tepper's work! I'd also like to know what The Gate to Women's Country is, it's new to me. Thank you very much! Britt-Inger Johansson wrote: > At 11:48 1998-11-28 -0600, you wrote: > > > > >I have tried to transcribe "Iphigenia at Ilium" as Tepper has created it > >for The Gate to Women's Country. The transcription is in my files > >(nice plain text, easily transmittable over email) and I will send it to > >anyone who asks for it. Comments welcome. > > > >Candice Bradley > >Appleton, WI > > > > I would be very interested to look at it before my planned rereading of > Gate, > Britt-Inger -- Lou Judson does Sound - intuitively. That's why I call it: Intuitive Audio ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:43:51 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Am I living in an alternate universe? Surely the one I regularly inhabit wouldn't involve attacks on list members who make suggestions that posts here be in some manner related to FEMINIST SF? And I can't believe as warm and loving a person as Donna could be called racist for her choice of similies. I am nauseated by this whole exchange. ******* Mike: I was saddened to read your post about "Boobs" and the responses in your class. Reminds me of when my ex thought I was horrible for having a joke book called PICKING ON MEN or some such. He couldn't be comfortable with the idea that someone who genuinely liked men (as I do/did) would find entertainment in it. ####### Danny: On THE FAMILY TREE I also had a hard time with the uneven writing of Dora. I think the mix of Tepper's mystery and SF elements sat uneasily for her. @@@@@@@ Phoebe: Loved this! >A little flat water would be nice. For awhile at least. There is probably no >satisfactory resolution to this, so why don't we all ship our oars for a bit >and float and do drifting down the Deep River's Embrace, past the Slow River >and beyond the Gate to Woman's Country and maybe on to... who knows -- a >sudden whoosh and off to Basilisk Station? > >pace pace >lightly lightly >phoebe **** Book suggestions: SF/mystery cross genre books sampler (some may be OP): GUN, WITH OCCASIONAL MUSIC by Jonahtan Lethem GLASS HOUSES by Laura Mixon SPARES by Michael Marshall Smith anything by Camille Bacon-Smith Lynn Hightower's SF police procedurals the "Cat" books by S. Murphy (mind is blanking a little here) Rosemary Estes "witch" mysteries Denise Vitola's "moon" series Tanya Huff Laurell Hamiton Glen Cook's fantasy private eye series Mel Odom's SF PP And doubtless many more -- this is off the cuff and on one cuppa tea. SF authors of color: Octavia Butler (stated) Mary Soon Lee (stated) Nalo Hopkinson Jewelle Gomez Tanarive Due Chip Delany Steve Barnes William F. Wu Michelle Sangara West (published under various combinations of last names) Walter Mosley Tess Gerritsen (bit of a stretch... does thrillers with speculative medical elements) Once again, not meant to be complete, but off the top of my head. Enough for one post, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:22:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: <126ce6af.365cf906@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When was it ever a custom in America? I doubt that seriously-the only thing that might have been is that immigrants who practiced it continued to do so--but I doubt that many did. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 11/25/98 8:46:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, > bocchij@SNOOPY.TBLC.LIB.FL.US writes: > > << I always thought that the male circumcision was basically a religious > custom; specifically, a jewish custom (ie old testament) ? >> > > > -- it used to be quite common among Christians in Europe and America too, > supposedly as a sanitary measure, but has been falling out of favor. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:32:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Tolkien again (was: Re-reading Childhood Favorites) In-Reply-To: <225c2d05.365d8ed9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, I would think it is more of a Christ similarity than a feminine similarity--but then again many feel that Jesus was feminine as well. Maybe that is why it isnt so far fetched to have a gay Jesus at that. (Responding to the objections some have made of the gay Jesus in a Broadway play) Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 11/26/98 2:50:35 AM Mountain Standard Time, > mazzoldi@IOL.IE writes: > > << Someone else had mentioned the "feminine" character of Frodo. This is > something I hadn't thought about, and I would like to hear more about it. > In what sense is he "feminine"? >> > > -- well, he does assume some characteristics traditonally thought of as > "feminine"; he's largely passive, acted upon rather than acting (other > people, notably Sam, do the stuff like fighting giant spiders); he > suffers a lot, usually for other people's sake; his big moment is a > renunciation (although he blows it). After that, he renounces all over > the place; eg., he renounces the role of powerful heroic savior in the > Shire. > > Of course, given Tolkien's background I think it might be safer to say that > Frodo is Christ-like rather than feminine. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:44:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: Request for information In-Reply-To: <199811280215.UAA04384@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Isnt Robert Silverberg hispanic? Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Santanico wrote: > At 11:30 AM 27/11/98 -0600, you wrote: > >I would appreciate it if you could share with me the names of any > >s-f/fantasy authors--male or female--who are non-white. The only ones I > >know of are Octavia Butler and Mary Soon Lee. Any suggestions that you > >could put forward would be most appreciated. > > > >Mary Ann > > Samuel R. Delaney and Steve Barnes are really the only ones who come to > mind. When you think about it, it's kind of odd that there are so few > non-Caucasian SF/Fantasy authors out there (that we know about anyway), > isn't it? > > Santanico > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:44:32 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: kelly boyle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Of course, given Tolkien's background I think it might be safer to say that > Frodo is Christ-like rather than feminine. I think one of the greater tensions built into patriarchal Christianity is that most of the most cherished Christian virtues (humility, love, caring) are traditionally perceived as feminine. Frodo might be perceived as a feminine character precisely since he has these Christian virtues. Kristina ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:09:03 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: Female Genital Mutilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bertina Miller says - >When was it ever a custom in America? I doubt that seriously-the only thing that might have been is that immigrants who practiced it continued to do so--but I doubt that many did. I have read accounts of FGM happening in the UK, Australia and New Zealand up until about the 1920s. It was done in an attempt to "cure" women whose sexuality was seen as out of male control - for example, women who masturbated regularly. There were also other reasons for it, all decided by male physical and mental health medical professionals. It happened in the context of repressive Victorian definitions of appropriate female sexuality. It certainly wouldn't have happened in the Europe of the 1600s, when women were credited with abounding sexual energy (which was seen as a good thing), and there were manuals for men on how to satisfy women sexually. I'm at work, so I don't have any references for this. >From what I've read I'd be surprised if women *weren't* subjected to this kind of operation in the US. This history makes it impossible for me to agree with those who imply that Western/European cultural attitudes and practices about female sexuality occupy the moral high ground, compared to those in countries where FGM is practiced. I'm also a little concerned to hear people assuming that if a woman is infibulated or mutilated, she is not capable of sexual pleasure. The clitoris is not just the tiny bit above the skin - it exists under the skin along the labia and vagina, and is about as big as a penis. I have read accounts from women who have had this operation, who *do* experience sexual pleasure, and I wouldn't want to see their experiences dismissed in the completely justified anger at their mutilation. To bring this back to FSS&F - the minimal amount of anthropological reading I have done about expressions of human sexuality in different cultures would provide plenty of ideas for depictions of how alien sexuality could function on other worlds. Dipping into anthropological accounts of other cultures also constantly undermines Western/European assumptions about what is proper and normal for women and for men. For example, the scenario of women and men living in separate single-sex villages and coming together only occasionally to mate is from this planet. Again, forgotten the references. Jenny Rankine (de-lurking briefly) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Subject: Re: The Cost to Be Wise In-Reply-To: <000601be1ae9$a6effb40$59b11b26@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII S P O I L E R Also, why would they trade in "whisak" ? It is obviously has intoxicating properties and precipitated much of the violence. It almost seems as if they were courting disaster..knew it was coming and even .as if the colony/settlement were an experiment, and I don't mean for the people who lived there..Wanji says "It was a mistake" and that they "gave up their lives to come here." Those are not the words of someone who has left their society voluntarily, believing they are founding "something better." Why do you think Janna and Tuuvin were left? It was almost as if they were just forgotten...except the offworlder in the red "shooed" them away from the skimmer...implying some form of classism? Definitely that they never even considered taking anyone back with them. Yet they took the founders' bodies...to be buried as "heroes" or studied as failures? Red and blue are prominent among the offworlders...Wanji has a red and blue rug in her house.. Sure does seem to be something "big" going on...although the tone reminds me of Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." Going....to read it again.... JB donnaneely@earthlink.net wrote: For instance, they did not "stop" the whisak trading, but _did_ prevent the gun trading, why? Was that fair? Balanced? Who is to say. Also, it is clear that violence is done to women outside and within Sckarline. There is the one reference to "giving in to him, he wont do much" to make a violent attack stop. Yet we are told Ayudesh just exclaims when Mam is hit by the outrunners taking the whisak. Why was physical brutality uninterrupted against women, but having guns to equal the might of the clans so awful? Jean Bocchino Libraries Support Services Manager Sarasota County Libraries Department ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:11:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/98 12:23:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, bmiller@MEDMAIL.MCG.EDU writes: << When was it ever a custom in America? I >> It wasn't custom...it was medical practice. For girls who masturbated. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:41:08 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Request for information In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Bertina Miller wrote: > Isnt Robert Silverberg hispanic? I may be wrong, but I always assumed Silverberg was Jewish (not that the two are mutually exclusive, of course, witness the Puerto Rican side of my family). Two hispanic sf writers of note are R. Garcia y. Robertson and (despite his name) Ernest Hogan--see his Cortez on Jupiter and High Aztech. Lester del Rey was also hispanic. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:54:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: Non-white sf/fantasy authors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/27/98 1:29:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, jjamieson@ODYSSEY.ON.CA writes: << > >> I would appreciate it if you could share with me the names of any >> s-f/fantasy authors--male or female--who are non-white. >> Octavia Butler. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:07:50 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Welcome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Welcome to the list Lou! Britt-Inger ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:22:59 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: <199811292107.KAA240250912373675@mail.iconz.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Suggested reading for those interested in the history of gender and sexuality: Thomas Laqueur, Making sex. Body and Gender from the Greeks to Freud, Harvard Univ. Press, 1990 hardcover, 1992 pocket edition. Still available as far as I know. It takes up all these issues mentioned in the post below. Britt-Inger At 10:09 1998-11-30 +1300, you wrote: >Bertina Miller says - >>When was it ever a custom in America? I doubt that seriously-the only >thing that might have been is that immigrants who practiced it continued >to do so--but I doubt that many did. > >I have read accounts of FGM happening in the UK, Australia and New Zealand >up until about the 1920s. It was done in an attempt to "cure" women whose >sexuality was seen as out of male control - for example, women who >masturbated regularly. There were also other reasons for it, all decided >by male physical and mental health medical professionals. It happened in >the context of repressive Victorian definitions of appropriate female >sexuality. > >It certainly wouldn't have happened in the Europe of the 1600s, when women >were credited with abounding sexual energy (which was seen as a good >thing), and there were manuals for men on how to satisfy women sexually. >I'm at work, so I don't have any references for this. > >From what I've read I'd be surprised if women *weren't* subjected to this >kind of operation in the US. This history makes it impossible for me to >agree with those who imply that Western/European cultural attitudes and >practices about female sexuality occupy the moral high ground, compared to >those in countries where FGM is practiced. > >I'm also a little concerned to hear people assuming that if a woman is >infibulated or mutilated, she is not capable of sexual pleasure. The >clitoris is not just the tiny bit above the skin - it exists under the skin >along the labia and vagina, and is about as big as a penis. I have read >accounts from women who have had this operation, who *do* experience sexual >pleasure, and I wouldn't want to see their experiences dismissed in the >completely justified anger at their mutilation. > >To bring this back to FSS&F - the minimal amount of anthropological reading >I have done about expressions of human sexuality in different cultures >would provide plenty of ideas for depictions of how alien sexuality could >function on other worlds. Dipping into anthropological accounts of other >cultures also constantly undermines Western/European assumptions about what >is proper and normal for women and for men. > >For example, the scenario of women and men living in separate single-sex >villages and coming together only occasionally to mate is from this planet. > Again, forgotten the references. > >Jenny Rankine (de-lurking briefly) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 07:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Kelly Link/Swordspoint stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure how many list folks are aware of Ellen Datlow's new online magazine Event Horizon. No matter, except that she has just posted a new story by Kelly Link - this years winner of a Tiptree award for her story "Travels of the Snow Queen". The new story is at the site below. Enjoy. http://www.e-horizon.com/eventhorizon/fiction/specialist/index.html And while I am at it. The only existing "followup/extension" to Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint is in print. It is included in Nicola Griffith's collection with Stephen Pagel, Bending The Landscape: Fantasy. It is called "The Fall of the Kings" and is co-authored with Delia Sherman. Excellent story, especially for those who could not get enough of Swordspoint (guilty I am). donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:12:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sarah Simpson Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I find this comment surprising. I am a Protestant midwestern American woman and I have never dated a man who had not been circumsized. This is also true of all my friends that talk about such things. Circumcision was very much the norm when and where I grew up. At 03:22 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >When was it ever a custom in America? I doubt that seriously-the only >thing that might have been is that immigrants who practiced it continued >to do so--but I doubt that many did. > >Bertina >bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > >On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > >> In a message dated 11/25/98 8:46:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, >> bocchij@SNOOPY.TBLC.LIB.FL.US writes: >> >> << I always thought that the male circumcision was basically a religious >> custom; specifically, a jewish custom (ie old testament) ? >> >> >> >> -- it used to be quite common among Christians in Europe and America too, >> supposedly as a sanitary measure, but has been falling out of favor. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:52:21 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: The Cost to be Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I wanted to comment on this story. I posted about it on USENET last year (and regretted it immediately -- the story was nominated for awards and I worried that I might effect that or seem to effect that). I thought it was a very well-written story, BTW. But it seemed to me to be a historical story with a thin veneer of SF content (not the worst sin in SF, admittedly). Also, I had to question the motives and intelligence of the "Missionaries" from Earth, in building a mission in the middle of nowhere, then selling hard liquor to the local (heavily armed) nomadic tribesmen, without taking any defensive measures. That seemed like a messy kind of suicide, and it is no surprise when a bunch of those nomads then #(spoiler space) # # # # # rob, rape, and burn everything in sight. That's not tragedy, just stupidity. I still plan to read the novel, _Mission Child_, as Maureen McHugh is a very fine writer. Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:04:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Bucci, Elizabeth" Subject: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Sparks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit After months of lurking, this is my first post on this listserv so go easy on me... I first read Snow Queen in high school and I absolutely adored it. I remember being absolutely drawn into the story and not being able to stop until it was finished. It was interesting to go back to this book some 16 years later only to find that it was just as wonderful an experience as the first time, except that, this time, with a full-time career and two small children, I was giving up on my sleep to finish the book! (Aside : I had forgotten pratically everything and so, it was like reading a new book!) Having reread it, and having gobbled up every last word of it, I really feel that this book can really be called a « classic »!! Having followed (and absolutely enjoyed!) the listserv's discussion intently, I must say that I was really in sync with most of the posts and often found myself nodding my head saying « yeah! me too! » (Especially the post which compared the « Prime Suspect » Helen Miren character to Jerusha...right on!) Accordingly, I'd prefer to focus on where my opinions are a little different from most of you and that is on the Moon-Sparks romance thread. Without quoting you individually, several posts did comment that the Moon-Sparks romance was one of the least likeable aspects of the book. I didn't feel this way at all! I remember that when I read the book as a star-struck teenager, I found the character of Sparks appealing on a very tragic level. As I watched him descend into this well of evil, I kept thinking « My God! what will Moon say when she sees him again! ». And, sure enough, the fact that he was so ashamed to have been seen by her as Starbuck...well, I bought into it. I guess it's the old « love conquers all » theme that suckered me in, as usual. It was interesting that I had the same reaction this time around (as a mature woman, haha!)...I liked the fact that Moon sticks to her guns and decides to love whoever the hell she pleases, even if he has become a jerk! As Marina puts it "I guess women have a right to want whoever they please just as well." Besides, I like how it's the fact that Moon is the one that "saves" him, rather than the other way around: kind of nice to see the woman being the strong character for a change and the one doing all of the rescuing! However, I will say that I am not convinced that there is a happy ending here: I think that Sparks will have a tough time adapting to being the Summer Queen's consort (after having been with the Winter Queen). But then, real life is like that, isn't it? Not all cut-and-dry, riding off into the sunset to live happily ever after...I guess I'll be sneaking around at night to read the sequel just to find out! Still awed that the term "feminist SF" exists after years of being an SF fan... --Elisabeth. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:25:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: <9a3ad746.3661f0a4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >From what I recall of victorian era practice was the use of gloves or tying the hands or even the use of a chastity belt (used more during medieval times though.) I still do not recall reading anything remotely surgical in the practices of stopping girls from masturbating in America. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > In a message dated 11/29/98 12:23:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, > bmiller@MEDMAIL.MCG.EDU writes: > > << When was it ever a custom in America? I >> > It wasn't custom...it was medical practice. For girls who masturbated. > > Madrone > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:49:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981130081218.007a4960@ns1.tulsalibrary.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was referring to female genital mutilation not male circumcision. Male circumcision is certainly an American custom especially if you are Jewish. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Sarah Simpson wrote: > I find this comment surprising. I am a Protestant midwestern American > woman and I have never dated a man who had not been circumsized. This is > also true of all my friends that talk about such things. Circumcision was > very much the norm when and where I grew up. > > At 03:22 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote: > >When was it ever a custom in America? I doubt that seriously-the only > >thing that might have been is that immigrants who practiced it continued > >to do so--but I doubt that many did. > > > >Bertina > >bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > > > >On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > > > >> In a message dated 11/25/98 8:46:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, > >> bocchij@SNOOPY.TBLC.LIB.FL.US writes: > >> > >> << I always thought that the male circumcision was basically a religious > >> custom; specifically, a jewish custom (ie old testament) ? >> > >> > >> > >> -- it used to be quite common among Christians in Europe and America too, > >> supposedly as a sanitary measure, but has been falling out of favor. > >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Sparks In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually I also have a problem with this 'mooning' Moon has for Sparks. This desperate need to get back with a guy who pretended to be two different people in order to help a woman who was genocidal is pathetic. The book is sappy at best and the only interesting character was the police woman who seemed the most realistic. Maybe I just am not a strong believer in a magic that would sway a person so strongly as to make the person go against everything he stood for. My 2 cents, Bertina On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Bucci, Elizabeth wrote: > After months of lurking, this is my first post on this listserv so go > easy on me... > > I first read Snow Queen in high school and I absolutely adored it. I > remember being absolutely drawn into the story and not being able to > stop until it was finished. It was interesting to go back to this book > some 16 years later only to find that it was just as wonderful an > experience as the first time, except that, this time, with a full-time > career and two small children, I was giving up on my sleep to finish the > book! (Aside : I had forgotten pratically everything and so, it was > like reading a new book!) Having reread it, and having gobbled up every > last word of it, I really feel that this book can really be called a > « classic »!! > > Having followed (and absolutely enjoyed!) the listserv's discussion > intently, I must say that I was really in sync with most of the posts > and often found myself nodding my head saying « yeah! me too! » > (Especially the post which compared the « Prime Suspect » Helen Miren > character to Jerusha...right on!) Accordingly, I'd prefer to focus on > where my opinions are a little different from most of you and that is on > the Moon-Sparks romance thread. Without quoting you individually, > several posts did comment that the Moon-Sparks romance was one of the > least likeable aspects of the book. I didn't feel this way at all! I > remember that when I read the book as a star-struck teenager, I found > the character of Sparks appealing on a very tragic level. As I watched > him descend into this well of evil, I kept thinking « My God! what will > Moon say when she sees him again! ». And, sure enough, the fact that he > was so ashamed to have been seen by her as Starbuck...well, I bought > into it. I guess it's the old « love conquers all » theme that suckered > me in, as usual. It was interesting that I had the same reaction this > time around (as a mature woman, haha!)...I liked the fact that Moon > sticks to her guns and decides to love whoever the hell she pleases, > even if he has become a jerk! As Marina puts it "I guess women have a > right to want whoever they please just as well." Besides, I like how > it's the fact that Moon is the one that "saves" him, rather than the > other way around: kind of nice to see the woman being the strong > character for a change and the one doing all of the rescuing! > > However, I will say that I am not convinced that there is a happy ending > here: I think that Sparks will have a tough time adapting to being the > Summer Queen's consort (after having been with the Winter Queen). But > then, real life is like that, isn't it? Not all cut-and-dry, riding off > into the sunset to live happily ever after...I guess I'll be sneaking > around at night to read the sequel just to find out! > > Still awed that the term "feminist SF" exists after years of being an SF > fan... > > --Elisabeth. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:44:11 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/30/98 7:25:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, bmiller@MEDMAIL.MCG.EDU writes: << still do not recall reading anything remotely surgical in the practices of stopping girls from masturbating in America. >> Try Ehrenreich and English, page 111 "In the United States the last recorded clitoridectomy for curing masturbation was performed in 1948...on a five year old girl." "For her own good", New York, Doubleday, 1978. It's an interesting book. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:00:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Organization: Geminiwalker, Inc. Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3F5F0737EFC3EAB28EDE944B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3F5F0737EFC3EAB28EDE944B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Demetria M. Shew wrote: > In a message dated 11/30/98 7:25:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, > bmiller@MEDMAIL.MCG.EDU writes: > > << still do not recall reading anything remotely surgical in the practices > of stopping girls from masturbating in America. > >> > > Try Ehrenreich and English, page 111 "In the United States the last recorded > clitoridectomy for curing masturbation was performed in 1948...on a five year > old girl." > > "For her own good", New York, Doubleday, 1978. > > It's an interesting book. > > Madrone ...and don't forget Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology! ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ --------------3F5F0737EFC3EAB28EDE944B Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Gemini Walker Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Gemini Walker n: Walker;Gemini org: Geminiwalker Ink adr: PO Box 16843;;Main Street Station;Worcester;MA;01601-6843;USA email;internet: chuard@earthlink.net title: Executive Director tel;work: (508) 798-4084 tel;home: (508) 798-4084 note: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------3F5F0737EFC3EAB28EDE944B-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:17:35 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" And I'm an American woman from the Northwest, and have yet to know a guy well enough who isn't circumsized, as well. All of them are in their late 20's/early 30's now; anyone know what the percentages were in the late 60's/early 70's in the US? -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Simpson [mailto:ssimpso@TCCL.LIB.OK.US] Sent: Monday, November 30, 1998 6:12 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] (OT) Female Genital Mutilation I find this comment surprising. I am a Protestant midwestern American woman and I have never dated a man who had not been circumsized. This is also true of all my friends that talk about such things. Circumcision was very much the norm when and where I grew up. At 03:22 PM 11/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >When was it ever a custom in America? I doubt that seriously-the only >thing that might have been is that immigrants who practiced it continued >to do so--but I doubt that many did. > >Bertina >bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu > >On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, S.M. Stirling wrote: > >> In a message dated 11/25/98 8:46:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, >> bocchij@SNOOPY.TBLC.LIB.FL.US writes: >> >> << I always thought that the male circumcision was basically a religious >> custom; specifically, a jewish custom (ie old testament) ? >> >> >> >> -- it used to be quite common among Christians in Europe and America too, >> supposedly as a sanitary measure, but has been falling out of favor. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:37:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > And I'm an American woman from the Northwest, and have yet to know a guy > well enough who isn't circumsized, as well. All of them are in their late > 20's/early 30's now; anyone know what the percentages were in the late > 60's/early 70's in the US? As a datapoint. I was born in Oak Ridge, TN, USA, in 1970 and was circumcised. My brother was born in 1971 in the same town, but with a midwife (I was born in a hospital). He was not circumcised at the time. He did, however, have some difficulty with infection and was circumcised as an teenager. As far as I know, male circumcision has been customary in the US for a long time, and FGM has not been. I wasn't aware that FGM had ever been sanctioned here at all. That's upsetting. I haven't met anyone, personally, (male or female) who would think that FGM was a "good" thing. -allen -- Allen Briggs - briggs@ninthwonder.com Try free *nix: http://www.netbsd.org/, http://www.freebsd.org/, http://www.linux.org/, http://www.openbsd.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:00:50 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation << When was it ever a custom in America? I >> >It wasn't custom...it was medical practice. For girls who masturbated. See Alex Comfort, _The Anxiety Makers_. How extensive the practice actually was is much debated by historians. It seems to have been more widely employed for a longer period in the USA than the UK - in the UK its major advocate, Isaac Baker Brown, was expelled from the London Obstetrical Society, and went mad. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:06:58 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Kelly Link/Swordspoint stories >The only existing "followup/extension" to Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint is >in print. It is included in Nicola Griffith's collection with Stephen >Pagel, Bending The Landscape: Fantasy. It is called "The Fall of the >Kings" and is co-authored with Delia Sherman. No -there has been another short story (which read a bit like -hopes, hopes - the beginning of a new novel) called 'The Swordsman whose name was not Death' - but I cannot remember where I saw it. It was actually about St Vire. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:56:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Request for information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/98 1:45:18 PM Mountain Standard Time, bmiller@MEDMAIL.MCG.EDU writes: << Isnt Robert Silverberg hispanic? >> -- no, Jewish. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:16:19 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: kelly boyle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Actually I also have a problem with this 'mooning' Moon has for Sparks. >This desperate need to get back with a guy who pretended to be two >different people in order to help a woman who was genocidal is pathetic. >The book is sappy at best and the only interesting character was the >police woman who seemed the most realistic. Maybe I just am not a strong >believer in a magic that would sway a person so strongly as to make the >person go against everything he stood for. I always felt that the - rather silly - loyalty that Moon feels for Sparks is highly realistic, at least if you take into account that she is a teenager. I have no end of friends who would still fall for someone like Sparks and stick to him through thick and thin...The problem for me lies more in the fact that this attitude, while it is credible to me, to some extent destroys the feeling that Moon comes from a different, egalitarian and non-exploitative culture, since I always believed that women fall for men of that kind because of built-in expectations in our culture. Myself, I rather like Snow Queen, though I prefer the sequel simply because I didn't recognise the mythical allusions as clearly in that (well, once I thought of going in for Celtic studies, so the book gets a feel of 'oh, and there's so-and-so, too'). Kristina Hildebrand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:22:17 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Request for information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What about Charles Saunders, Nalo Hopkinson, and Owl Going Back? Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 "That All May Read!" My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them! >>> Santanico 11/27 8:15 PM >>> At 11:30 AM 27/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >I would appreciate it if you could share with me the names of any >s-f/fantasy authors--male or female--who are non-white. The only ones I >know of are Octavia Butler and Mary Soon Lee. Any suggestions that you >could put forward would be most appreciated. > >Mary Ann Samuel R. Delaney and Steve Barnes are really the only ones who come to mind. When you think about it, it's kind of odd that there are so few non-Caucasian SF/Fantasy authors out there (that we know about anyway), isn't it? Santanico ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:34:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: Dark Water's Embrace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain rats ... I missed most of this thread - I just finished the book and very much enjoyed it. sheryl > ---------- > From: Keith[SMTP:kmhouse@HALCYON.COM] > Reply To: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 8:55 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Dark Water's Embrace > > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Britt-Inger Johansson wrote: > > > At 00:21 1998-11-25 -0500, you wrote: > > > I felt that his message > > >was more that all that we can hope for is a certain percentage of > > >decent folk at any given time, perhaps a "golden age" here and there > > >in between cultural collapses... Am I depressing you? > > > > > No, you make me think of Golding, Lord of the Flies, this theme is an > > old one in literature. > > > > Britt-Inger > > > And of course, We Who Are About To - maybe an old theme, but I love the > pragmatic anger of that book. > > Kathleen > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:02:25 +0000 Reply-To: iaudio@worldlynx.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lou Judson Organization: Intuitive Audio Subject: Re: Welcome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you very much! What a wealth of thoughtful community people! I agree with the one who posted today, Amazed that the term even exists, Feminist SF. Well, not amazed, but very pleased at the richness of what I've read just today. Unfortunately, I am going to unsubscribe for the moment, as I cannot deal with 16 messages every time I want to send a quick email on the project I'm trying to get done today. I'm a sound engineer and am editing a book on tape which has to be done today! Feel free to let me know of anything interesting or important on the list - but I'm outta here until I get my work done! Thanks again, very very much. Lou Britt-Inger Johansson wrote: > Welcome to the list Lou! > > Britt-Inger -- Lou Judson does Sound - intuitively. That's why I call it: Intuitive Audio ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:13:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: Kelly Link/Swordspoint stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Lesley. Good correction. The Kushner story " The Swordsman Whose Name Was Not Death" was in F&SF Mag in 1991 then was reprinted in: _The Year's Best Fantasy and Horror, Fifth Annual Collection_ Auth/Ed: Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow Year: 1992 ISBN: 0-312-07887-0 > >The only existing "follow-up/extension" to Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint > >is in print. It is included in Nicola Griffith's collection with > >Stephen Pagel, Bending The Landscape: Fantasy. It is called "The > >Fall of the Kings" and is co-authored with Delia Sherman. >No -there has been another short story (which read a bit like -hopes, >hopes - the beginning of a new novel) called 'The Swordsman whose name >was not Death' - but I cannot remember where I saw it. It was actually >about St Vire. >Lesley >Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:26:09 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Sparks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bucci, Elizabeth wrote: Besides, I like how > it's the fact that Moon is the one that "saves" him, rather than the > other way around: kind of nice to see the woman being the strong > character for a change and the one doing all of the rescuing! > I also liked the book, but one of it's weak points was the Sparks-Moon romance. I didn't see Moon as a Prince-like figure rescuing the Sparks-briar-rose character. She was more like the beauty in Beauty and the Beast. This myth that the love of a good woman can change a man is deeply rooted in the culture. Many women are attracted to self-hating men who they think they can change. Or women stay with abusers because they think their womanly love may have some kind of transformative power. It's hard to image a fairy tale in the reverse of the Snow Queen: where a woman shacks up with an evil King, loses her moral center, and kills things, but the prince still wants to redeem her. I'd really like to read a story like that, but haven't ever come across one. --Allyson. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:31:21 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Sparks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Allyson wrote: It's hard to image a fairy tale in the reverse of the Snow Queen: where a woman shacks up with an evil King, loses her moral center, and kills things, but the prince still wants to redeem her. I'd really like to read a story like that, but haven't ever come across one. That's because the only thing that ever matters about females in fairy tales is what they look like, and their moral center is ALWAYS reflected in their looks. "losing her moral center" would inevitably mean she would turn ugly, and the prince wouldn't want anything to do with her any more. *sigh*. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:19:26 -0500 Reply-To: sleigh1@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephen Leigh Subject: Re: Dark Water's Embrace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A4AD7462AB6DE9D45431E0C3" --------------A4AD7462AB6DE9D45431E0C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl wrote: > rats ... I missed most of this thread - I just finished the book and very > much enjoyed it. > Seems I missed most of it, too... I just joined the list myself. *sigh* But I'm glad you enjoyed the book, Sheryl! Steve http://www.sff.net/people/sleigh/ --------------A4AD7462AB6DE9D45431E0C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl wrote:
  
rats ... I missed most of this thread - I just finished the book and very
much enjoyed it.


Seems I missed most of it, too...  I just joined the list myself.  *sigh*  But I'm glad you enjoyed the book, Sheryl!

Steve
http://www.sff.net/people/sleigh/
  --------------A4AD7462AB6DE9D45431E0C3-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Searching Archive (was Dark Water's Embrace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Compliments of Petra, instructions for searching the FSFFU archives: Quote: Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 3:21 AM Subject: [*FSFFU*] Finding former postings on specific subjects "Sometime ago I had the same experience with the archive on Laura's website so I studied the listserv manual. At that time I wanted to find out what had been said about Leona Gom's _The Y Chromosome_ so far. That's how it is done: Step 1: Send the command search feministsf word1 to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU , NOT to the list itself. In my case word1 = Gom. After a few minutes one should receive a message from the listserv with - a list of all messages ever in which word1 appeared anywhere. In my case all messages containing Gomez also were included. - the command one has to send to get a message containing these messages in full. - excerpts of all the relevant messages so one can exclude not relevant messages from the command. Step 2: Send the command, eventually after erasing some post numbers, GETPOST FEMINISTSF number1 number2 ... to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU . Number1 etc. are the numbers of the relevant postings. After some time one should receive a message from the listserv with all the requested postings in full. It is really a simple process, I hope I did not present it in a too complicated way. There are further search options. They can be found out if the command info refcard is sent to the LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU . *** Petra Mayerhofer **** >Sheryl wrote: >>> rats ... I missed most of this thread - I just finished the book and very >> much enjoyed it. > >Seems I missed most of it, too... I just joined the list myself. >*sigh* But I'm glad you enjoyed the book, Sheryl! > >Steve >http://www.sff.net/people/sleigh/ > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: sleigh1@ix.netcom.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephen Leigh Subject: Re: Searching Archive (was Dark Water's Embrace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Petra-- Thanks for the info on searching the archives. I'll give it a try. Steve