From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Dec 29 16:05:25 1998 Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:57:50 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: lquilter@HOOKED.NET Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9812A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:55:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Spa In-Reply-To: <2150461@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This gave me a giggle, because I have two male characters who are suckers for just that kind of woman. And no, the women didn't turn into hags when they "lost their moral center." One looks like a young Elizabeth Taylor, one looks like Camryn Manheim, and one looks like a young Jane Fonda. (For anybody who doesn't know Camryn Manheim--she recently won a Emmy for best actress in a dramatic TV series. You can check her out at www.camryn.com.) All three women keep insisting, "You can't save me; I'm too far gone. Don't think I'm special. I'll destroy you, too." The Taylor character chose death over redemption; the Fonda character is just starting down the dark side. She never gets as vicious as the other two. She has more alternatives for action. I'm wondering if I should work a little harder to save the Manheim character. . . ? Up to the last minute, I thought I had saved the Taylor, but she flipped me off and went out snarling and spitting. Rebecca At 05:30 PM 11/30/98 CST, Sandy wrote: >Allyson wrote: > > It's hard to image a fairy tale in the reverse of the Snow Queen: where >a woman shacks up with an evil King, loses her moral center, and kills >things, but the prince still wants to redeem her. I'd really like to >read a story like that, but haven't ever come across one. > >That's because the only thing that ever matters about females in fairy tales >is what they look like, and their moral center is ALWAYS reflected in their >looks. "losing her moral center" would inevitably mean she would turn ugly, >and the prince wouldn't want anything to do with her any more. *sigh*. > > -Sandy > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:21:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Spa In-Reply-To: <2150439@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:19 PM 11/30/98 CST, Allyson wrote: >I also liked the book, but one of it's weak points was the Sparks-Moon >romance. I didn't see Moon as a Prince-like figure rescuing the >Sparks-briar-rose character. She was more like the beauty in Beauty and >the Beast. This myth that the love of a good woman can change a man is >deeply rooted in the culture. Many women are attracted to self-hating >men who they think they can change. Or women stay with abusers because >they think their womanly love may have some kind of transformative >power. No, no, no! You've got the Disney version of Beauty and the Beast! Pahtooie! Oh, I hate that movie! A young girl wants adventure so she throws in her lot with a spoiled, abusive brat in a beast-form. (And he's been told that he has to find his true love by the time he's TWENTY-ONE or he'll be a beast forever. DON'T TELL KIDS CRAP LIKE THAT!!!!!) No, check out the story on http://tam-lin.org/tamlin2.html or rent the Jean Cocteau version of the movie. The beast in actually a mature man of taste and breeding. He has a temper and years of living alone have made him fierce. He has a passion for growing roses, and he is outraged when Beauty's father picks one. Beauty is afraid but she takes her father's place in the Beast's castle, where she blossoms into a kind and loving woman, who can see past his hideous appearance. Now, you won't ever read the opposite of this fairytale--where a woman has been turned into a Beast and the innocent youth learns to love her for her inner qualities! I've tried rewriting that one a couple of times. I can't make it believable. Rebecca > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:06:25 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: U Sanna Koulu Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Spa In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981201002111.0078dec4@flink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Rebecca wrote: > Now, you won't ever read the opposite of this fairytale--where a woman has > been turned into a Beast and the innocent youth learns to love her for her > inner qualities! I've tried rewriting that one a couple of times. I can't > make it believable. Just a quick thought - if I remember it correctly, there has been such a story in one of MZB's Sword and Sorceress anthologies. Vera Nazarian's "Beauty and His Beast", which I thought lovely when I last read it. - Sanna -Sanna Koulu -------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------"And when she was good she was ----- -050-5849 617 --------------------very, very good, and when she ----- -Viljo Sohkasen k. 3 E 38---------was bad she was horrid." ---------- -01370 VANTAA ------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:00:13 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rachel Massey Subject: LeGuin's Earthsea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have just read LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea again for the first time since several years ago. It strikes me as odd that only men becom e wizards. there are a few women who are witches and other lowly practitioners of magic, but only men seem able to study at Roke. I find it interesting that LeGuin should write about such a patriarchal society, considering the other works that I have read of hers. If anyone would like to comment on perhaps why she has done this, I would appreciate it. I am sorry if the list has already discussed this, as I don't get time to read all the messages. Cheers Nimiane ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:58:18 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: Kelly Link/Swordspoint stories Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-30 18:21:21 EST, you write: << >No -there has been another short story (which read a bit like -hopes, hopes - >the beginning of a new novel) called 'The Swordsman whose name was not Death' >- but I cannot remember where I saw it. It was actually about St Vire. >Lesley >> Two other slantingly related stories are "Unicorn Masque" (Elsewhere, ed. Terri Windling & Mark Arnold, 1981) and "Hunt of the Unicorn" (Immortal Unicorn, ed. Peter Beagle, 1995 & Year's Best Fantasy and Horror, 9th annual, 1996) These stories (NOT about unicorns) have a character, a Lord named Thomas Berowne, who appears very briefly in Swordspoint (old lover/patron of St Vier-- gave him the ring with the rose on it). These are darker than Swordspoint. Since Kushner described the Unicorn stories as taking place in an alternate version of 16th-c. England, that would seem to apply to the Swordspoint works, too. I heard Kushner read the Swordsman... story the year before it was published. My memory is a little fuzzy, but she did say something about working on another St Vier book and that the characters in Swordspoint were linked to earlier writing she'd done, and to ideas for a book/series she'd been mulling over for a long time. Hope it comes to something, eventually-- loved the book, the Swordsman story was ok but had a mushy ending. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:15:05 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: LeGuin's Earthsea In-Reply-To: <19981201120020.10626.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maybe it has to do with when she wrote it (the first edition came in 1968) or its aim, that is, it is directed to children and in 1968 you just didn't write feminist oriented stories for children - at least not if you wanted to publish it. It hardly occurs even today, come to think of it, unfortunately. HEY; YOU SF AND FANTASY WRITER'S ONLIST; HERE'S A CHALLENGE! I was born in 1959, so I remember the later sixties and how society was organised and what books were available , not to mention suitable, for children etc. Remember that during the last 30 years feminist issues have come a long way although we tend to forget past struggles in favour of present ones. To the best of my recollection, in the Earthsea trilogy she does have some criticism imbedded. Roke for instance is not portrayed in an entirely favourable way. Still, the trilogy does lean heavily on traditional story book stereotypes of heroes and heroines and what they are supposed to do, like boy rescues girl (although Tenar is not at all passive), "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" etc. Actually come to think of it, in the background of recent discussions of Gate to Women's Country, one could see the Tombs of Atuan as a reworking of the old Theseus/Ariadne myth, right? Have you read the follow-up novel to the actual trilogy called Tehanu published in 1990? It explains a lot I would say, but won't go into detail since there may be people who hasn't read it. Not the least, the fact that unlike the others, I wouldn't call it a children's story, it is aimed more towards an adult audience. There is a decided difference and it is very interesting to see how far she has matured as a writer, as an individual and as a feminist between the trilogy and Tehanu. But it has a darker note. Britt-Inger At 04:00 1998-12-01 -0800, you wrote: >I have just read LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea again for the first time >since several years ago. It strikes me as odd that only men becom e >wizards. there are a few women who are witches and other lowly >practitioners of magic, but only men seem able to study at Roke. I find >it interesting that LeGuin should write about such a patriarchal >society, considering the other works that I have read of hers. >If anyone would like to comment on perhaps why she has done this, I >would appreciate it. I am sorry if the list has already discussed this, >as I don't get time to read all the messages. >Cheers >Nimiane > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:54:05 -0500 Reply-To: Lilith Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Spa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Rebecca wrote: > >> Now, you won't ever read the opposite of this fairytale--where a woman has >> been turned into a Beast and the innocent youth learns to love her for her >> inner qualities! I've tried rewriting that one a couple of times. I can't >> make it believable. > Actually, C.J. Cherryh's "Gate of Ivrel" series might qualify - Morgaine is a character whose actions could be construed as "evil", even if they are necessary - in any case she is uncompromising and driven, and is by no means a sweet, passive maiden. And Vanye is in many ways an innocent youth, who comes to love her as she is. Lilith ********************************************* ************Hell's Half Acre*************** * http://www.concentric.net/~Ligeia * ********************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:25:16 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Dark Water's Embrace In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:34 PM 11/30/98 -0500, sheryl wrote: >rats ... I missed most of this thread - I just finished the book and very >much enjoyed it. sheryl I also just finished the book, motivated by the discussion to pick it up over the long holiday weekend. I'm probably going to include some spoilers in this message eventually, so if you don't want to see them then delete or file away this message for later. I enjoyed the book a lot. I thought it was interesting to compare it to Scott's Shadow Man which we recently discussed. Here is another example of an alternate gender scheme that I found more believable, possibly because it was rooted in some kind of evolutionary advantage. Also, Dark Water's Embrace paid much more attention to the role of the "new" gender in society, not just to the effect of suppressing it. Personally, I thought the lesbian/bi characters were well done. They certainly were the most likable and interesting. As others mentioned, I also noticed the complete lack of discussion of male homosexuals. I attributed this after some thought to male homosexuality being much less a threat, as long as the men were willing to also periodically sleep with women. Would have made the story stronger to work it in casually somehow, though. However, I ended up concluding that the orientation of Gabriela was a bit of a red herring. The real conflict was not so much about who Gabriela and Anais loved, but rather their unwillingness to reproduce, or their perceived threat to the colony's reproduction. Both come out as "fear of the other" in the end, but as I think Donna may have pointed out everyone but Gabriela turned out to be breeders. And it's entirely possible that Maire was attracted to her as a Sa -- excellent point, Donna. The story made me think (as it was no doubt intended) about that line between personal freedom and species survival. I mean, really, it's not as though the only remaining humans were on that planet -- if all of them died, it wouldn't threaten the survival of the species overall. But if it were me as one of those eight, I can't say I wouldn't through in the towel and join the breeders, despite everything else. It seemed plausible to me that building their society around the Need to Breed would separate sex from love and allow gays to love anyone as long as they continue to do their duty, whether or not they "enjoyed" it. I thought the bad guys were overdone (with the exception of the ancient bad guy). As someone else said, after awhile I really had enough of Dominic; the story would have been stronger if we'd been allowed a teensy bit of empathy for him. Or perhaps others were able to, and he just reminded me too much of all those people today that would like to see me strung up for being different. And did you notice that Leigh suggests that "bad" may have a genetic element -- the one who persecuted Gabriela was Dominic's (father?). Plus there was an implication that Maire may have been related to Gabriela. This "biology as destiny" message fits nicely with the "dark waters embrace" of our hero Anais becoming the biological savior of this colony. Yet another way to show that the apparent lesbian theme is a red herring. As Janice suggested, the lesbian angle was perhaps only needed to get Anais in bed with Maire. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:39:23 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Sparks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Elizabeth ebucci@FOXBORO.CA wrote > It was interesting to go back to this book > some 16 years later only to find that it was just as wonderful an > experience as the first time, except that, this time, with a full-time > career and two small children, I was giving up on my sleep to finish the > book! ... /snip/ ... I found the character of Sparks appealing on a very > tragic level. As I watched him descend into this well of evil, I kept > thinking ´ My God! what will Moon say when she sees him again! And, > sure enough, the fact that he was so ashamed to have been seen by her as > Starbuck...well, I bought into it. I very much had this reaction also. I haven't reread the book in over fifteen years, so it is less fresh in my mind, but I recall liking it very much, for exactly the reasons you describe. I remember one of the most powerful scenes as being when they make love for the first time after she has been gone. I'm going on a very dated memory here, but I recall that scene being rich with themes of redemption, and the relinquishing of anger and fear. I may have conflated several themes in the book, though, given how long it's been. But that it stays in my mind even after all the years and all the hundreds of books I've read since then, says a lot. > ...I liked the fact that Moon sticks to her guns and decides to love > whoever the hell she pleases, even if he has become a jerk! I don't remember him being a jerk so much as messed up by the drug. So Moon helped him recover. This had probably already been brought out by others, here, though; I haven't read all the thread. But if I remember correctly, Moon was the only one who didn't stand in judgement on him. She saw that he was messed up "on the outside," but that the basic man beneath was still the one she had loved. > I like how it's the fact that Moon is the one that "saves" him, rather than > the other way around: kind of nice to see the woman being the strong > character for a change and the one doing all of the rescuing! Yes, I liked the way that was done, also. Moon was the source of strength on many levels, both emotional and in terms of her actions. Sparks needed her strength. Usually in fiction it's the other way around. > I guess it's the old ´ love conquers all theme that suckered me in, as > usual. Well, heck. It can, with the right people and a real love. :-) Throughout the history of the human race, what has brought peace? After the diplomats, the warriors, and the monarchs go home, what actually makes the peace work? It is people who, one by one, make bridges to one another. Often those bridges come in the form of love, not just in a traditional sense of marriage and children, but in the wider sense of individuals of any sex, race, color, or creed reaching past their differences to join with one another. So I don't think you were suckered, or bought into anything. :-) It is a powerful force in our lives and that makes it a powerful theme in literature. Ironically, it is that power which also makes it hard to take sometimes. If love can achieve so much, why hasn't it done more? Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:32:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: LeGuin's Earthsea In-Reply-To: <19981201120020.10626.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I found this one distressing when I read it many years ago. Unlike other stories of LeGuin's that I had read up to that point, it seemed to me to be biased against women. Some stories, the excellent Nine Lives for example, had all-male casts, but this looked more just like writing in the conventions of the times. Wizard of Earthsea, though, seemed to define female spirituality as evil where it wasn't non-existant; only male spirituality had the necessary "right stuff" to be creative, powerful and a force for good. This one did stand out, as I don't remember other LeGuin novels with this bais. It reflected the very destructive myths of male spirituality and female evil that I was coming to realize were at the basis of the male-ruled religions. Kathleen On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Rachel Massey wrote: > I have just read LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea again for the first time > since several years ago. It strikes me as odd that only men becom e > wizards. there are a few women who are witches and other lowly > practitioners of magic, but only men seem able to study at Roke. I find > it interesting that LeGuin should write about such a patriarchal > society, considering the other works that I have read of hers. > If anyone would like to comment on perhaps why she has done this, I > would appreciate it. I am sorry if the list has already discussed this, > as I don't get time to read all the messages. > Cheers > Nimiane > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:57:15 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: LeGuin's Earthsea >I have just read LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea again for the first time >since several years ago. It strikes me as odd that only men becom e >wizards. there are a few women who are witches and other lowly >practitioners of magic, but only men seem able to study at Roke. I find >it interesting that LeGuin should write about such a patriarchal >society, considering the other works that I have read of hers For Le Guin' own 'take' on this in the aftermath of writing _Tehanu_, the 4th volume of the erstwhile triology, many years later, see _Earthsea Revisioned_, a pamphlet of her lecture 'Children, Men. Women and Dragons' given at a conference on children's literature, published by Green Bay Publications. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:30:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: From the Dominion News e-letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII **************************************************************** CHAT WITH AWARD-WINNING SCIENCE FICTION AUTHOR MAUREEN H. MCHUGH Tuesday, December 8 @ 9pm Eastern Time/6pm Pacific Time/2am UK *************************************************************** Chat with science fiction author Maureen McHugh about her latest novel Mission Child. McHugh's 1992 novel China Mountain Zhang was the recipient of the James Tiptree, Jr. Award and the Lambda Award as well as a Hugo and Nebula nominee. Her short story The Lincoln Train was the recipient of the 1996 Hugo Award. Examples of her fiction, essays and criticism can be found online at her site, The Memory Box. This event is the latest in a series of chats with notable genre authors co-presented by Asimov's Science Fiction. Asimov's and Analog Science Fiction magazines are the leading publishers of short fiction. Asimov's stories have won 29 Hugos and 24 Nebulas, and the magazine has received the last 10 Locus Awards for best magazine. Analog, known for its hard science fiction and cutting edge fact articles, is the longest running, almost continuously published SF magazine in the world. Visit these publications online at: http://www.sfsite.com/asimovs/ http://www.sfsite.com/analog/ To chat, visit http://www.scifi.com/chat/chatnow.html and join #auditorium on the appointed date and time. Requires a java-capable browser. IRC users can connect their chat clients to , port 6667. WebTV users, see http://www.scifi.com/chat/chat.faq.html for more information. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:00:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: LeGuin's Earthsea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B10344478118D177E53C405C" --------------B10344478118D177E53C405C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if most of LeGuin's fiction until The Dispossessed isn't at least ambivalent about (if not biased against) women. Partly this practice is market-driven but that reflects the cultural ambiance out of which she wrote (not just into which she delivered a product) and it probably reflects very real ambivalence on her part concerning the roles allotted to women in life as well as literature (her non-fiction charts the growth of her feminist sensibilities). Her men are not perfect, either, but at least they get to do things; the nadir of this "prejudice" is reached in The Tombs of Atuan. Lathe of Heaven is at least partly (mainly?) about how men screw up the world by trying to make it better and the macho mystique comes in for censure in The Word for World is Forest and the Brazilian thing as well as Tehanu (I have never read Always Coming Home). I seem to recall also that The Farthest Place (is that the title?) empowers the girl more than the boy. Is/was it necessary for her to choose one or the other (like pronoun gender) rather than rough (or smooth) equality? Keith wrote: > I found this one distressing when I read it many years ago. Unlike > other stories of LeGuin's that I had read up to that point, it seemed to > me to be biased against women. Some stories, the excellent Nine Lives for > example, had all-male casts, but this looked more just like writing in > the conventions of the times. Wizard of Earthsea, though, seemed to > define female spirituality as evil where it wasn't non-existant; only male > spirituality had the necessary "right stuff" to be creative, powerful and > a force for good. > > This one did stand out, as I don't remember other LeGuin novels with this > bais. It reflected the very destructive myths of male spirituality and > female evil that I was coming to realize were at the basis of the > male-ruled religions. > > Kathleen > > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Rachel Massey wrote: > > > I have just read LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea again for the first time > > since several years ago. It strikes me as odd that only men becom e > > wizards. there are a few women who are witches and other lowly > > practitioners of magic, but only men seem able to study at Roke. I find > > it interesting that LeGuin should write about such a patriarchal > > society, considering the other works that I have read of hers. > > If anyone would like to comment on perhaps why she has done this, I > > would appreciate it. I am sorry if the list has already discussed this, > > as I don't get time to read all the messages. > > Cheers > > Nimiane > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:41:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Spa In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981201002111.0078dec4@flink.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Rebecca wrote: (snip) > Now, you won't ever read the opposite of this fairytale--where a woman has > been turned into a Beast and the innocent youth learns to love her for her > inner qualities! I've tried rewriting that one a couple of times. I can't > make it believable. In Chaucer's The Wife of Bath's Tale, didn't the ugly woman convince a handsome, young knight to marry her and he eventually sees her as beautiful because he falls in love with who she is and not just her appearance? I always liked how it was the woman who was ugly and the man learns to love her. It's always the other way around in most stories. I read this a long time ago so I might have it slightly wrong. > Rebecca > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:53:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: marcie begleiter Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This thread reminded me of an article I had seen in the new york times a while back. in the times on imes from Dec.28 1996 a story mentions a survey taken by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. They felt that an estimated 150,000 women and children in America were at risk for this type of cutting or had already endured the surgery. Most of the women were of African descent and I imagune their families see this practice as connecting their diasporic experience to the homeland. But not all are done for this purpose. There is also a mention in a related article in May of 1997 on the practice of doctors performing clitorectomys on babies and children of ambigious sexuality. Most of these children ( 90%) are girls born with enlarged genitalia and their parents opt for elective surgery to make them conform to the body norm of their expectations. >From the article: 'My parents were worried about how that would affect me growing up,' said Ms. Coventry, 'so I had a clitoridectomy when I was 6. They just snipped it right off.' Ms. Coventry was told only that she had had 'something cut off between her legs,' and when, at the age of 11, she pressed her father for details, he warned, 'Don't be so self-examining.' The article also mentions that aprox. 2,000 of these operations are performed a year in this country. it continues: "The procedure is performed on infants who, for a wide variety of hormonal and genetic reasons, are born with ambiguous genitals, ranging in appearance from a simply protruding clitoris to a more complex configuration not immediately identifiable as male or female. By current practice, doctors designate about 90 percent of babies with ambiguous genitalia -- also called intersexuality -- as girls. They then try to fashion the genitals into a patently female form, surgery that usually requires clitoral reduction." It is horrifying to me that the AMA actually sanctions this practice, which in some cases is only euphemistially called circumcision, but is in reality castration of the female who demonstrates ( in form at least) sexual power approaching the male image. God forbid we should have a hard-ons. (articles appeared on May 13, 1997 and Dec. 28, 1996) marcie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:42:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Subject: Re: LeGuin's Earthsea In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Funny, if I recall, Le Guin makes some very pointed messages about the evils of pride and ego (by men of power) in this series. And even though the wizard was a 'good' man, he still needed to learn some humility. I always took this to be the focus of her message, rather than anything exclusionary.... JB On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Keith wrote: > I found this one distressing when I read it many years ago. Unlike > other stories of LeGuin's that I had read up to that point, it seemed to > me to be biased against women. Some stories, the excellent Nine Lives for > example, had all-male casts, but this looked more just like writing in > the conventions of the times. Wizard of Earthsea, though, seemed to > define female spirituality as evil where it wasn't non-existant; only male > spirituality had the necessary "right stuff" to be creative, powerful and > a force for good. > > This one did stand out, as I don't remember other LeGuin novels with this > bais. It reflected the very destructive myths of male spirituality and > female evil that I was coming to realize were at the basis of the > male-ruled religions. > > Kathleen > > > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Rachel Massey wrote: > > > I have just read LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea again for the first time > > since several years ago. It strikes me as odd that only men becom e > > wizards. there are a few women who are witches and other lowly > > practitioners of magic, but only men seem able to study at Roke. I find > > it interesting that LeGuin should write about such a patriarchal > > society, considering the other works that I have read of hers. > > If anyone would like to comment on perhaps why she has done this, I > > would appreciate it. I am sorry if the list has already discussed this, > > as I don't get time to read all the messages. > > Cheers > > Nimiane > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:26:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: The Cost to Be Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >S > > >P > > >O > > >I > >L > >E > > >R > > >Also, why would they trade in "whisak" ? It is obviously has intoxicating >properties and precipitated much of the violence. > There is a scene in the distillery with the Scathalos where it is said that "the distillery is ours and [the teachers] did not interfere with how we ran it" (pg 278). I took this to mean that distilling spirits for trade came to Sckarline with Mam from Tentas clan. It did not come with the "teachers". In that it fit with the principles of "appropriateness", it was not something Ayudesh/Wanji could affect without violating their own "taught" principles. (Ayudesh and Wanji clearly had a complex morality about what they were doing.) It is also mentioned that whisak is traded to all the clans. It was only the Scathalos clan that did not "pay" for it. We are further told they had more guns on this visit then any other clan had been seen to possess. 1-2 was more typical. I see McHugh building a much more complex weave of precipitates to the violence then just whisak. To the precipitates we could add: the presence of Veronique, the protection of whom caused the first shot to be fired (pg 286); and we could have to add economic envy - a Scathalos outrunner says about the Sckarline kin: "With their pretty houses like offworlders?" (pg 284). And of course the obvious one that Sckarline was a place of distinct "difference". To me this is the beauty of the story, that it is not just the obvious or a singular dynamic that precipitates the ultimate wrecking violence. It also seems the stance of not having guns in Sckarline, which were not "appropriate", is what caused the more precipative imbalance with the Scathalos or any of the gun possessing clans rather than what Sckarline traded. On second reading, I notice that guns are disapproved of by both: Veronique, she says outright "[they] are bad" (pg 281), and her extreme fright and concern about whether she will "get out of here" (pg 286); and the skimmer pilots/personnel that come to pick up Veronique at the end. They respond to Tuuvins inquiry about guns "No guns...No guns". This made me suspect that guns were perhaps banished in their offworld society as well. This seems in direct contrast to the reference that the trade of clips was a means for the offworld to control the clans (pg 275). This made it seem to me clearer that Ayudesh and Wanji were trying to create a truly advanced community, but perhaps by leaping over the more violent steps of development that we have all seen to be "the rule(?)" in our own earth history. > It almost seems as if they were courting disaster..knew it was coming and even .as if the colony/settlement were an experiment, and I don't mean for the people who lived there..Wanji says "It was a mistake" and that they "gave up their lives to come here."> I think absolutely the colony was an "experiment", though in the text it is referred to as "an appropriate technology _mission_" (pg 268). Using "mission" adds quite a bit for me. McHugh suggests that there were other standards being applied. Lots of education going on not just on economics but also history and english, Janna even jokes that all off worlders are teachers so who does all the work? (pg 287). Also we see evidence that marriage, or at minimum bearing children, was intentionally delayed when Janna refers to her parents marrying young and not waiting in regard to her attraction to Tuuvin (pg 266). Sckarline also seemed a refuge from violence/rejection. We see briefly the character of Gerda who came to Sckarline after "having her nose slit for adultery" (pg 304). Also we hear mention more than once of "little uncle", Janna's father's brother. I assumed he was a dwarf or in some way less than expected "adult size" and thus cast out of a clan. By the end of the story I could agree with Wanji's summation that "it was a mistake", but then I also cannot agree. Again, this is part of what makes the story so strong for me. >Those are not the words of someone who has left their society voluntarily, >believing they are founding "something better."> My sense is they were doing it altruistically for the colonists (ie. "mission"), not to find refuge for themselves from the offworld. >Why do you think Janna and Tuuvin were left? It was almost as if they were >just forgotten...except the offworlder in the red "shooed" them away >from the skimmer...implying some form of classism? Definitely that they >never even considered taking anyone back with them. > Okay I am going to take a huge leap here......it struck me that Janna and Tuuvin were an "Adam and Eve" pairing. The title "The Cost of Wisdom" has been puzzling me for days. I just _know_ McHugh is trying to tell me something more there than the superficial. Tonight when I was reading it again. It just struck me....What cast Adam and Eve out of the garden of eden was eating the apple of wisdom wasn't it? Or it was knowledge, no? Heck I dont know, as I said _a huge leap_, but something about them already having been a young, physically intimate, male/female pair, destined to mate and in the end left cast out of the mission/settlement and left standing their with their (inconsequential) "gifts".....I dont know. Something is going on their with the imagery and the male/female thing and the "getting of wisdom"....anyone want to play with this idea? > Yet they took the founders' bodies...to be buried as "heroes" or studied as failures? Red and blue are prominent among the offworlders...Wanji has a red and blue rug in her house..> I think the taking of the offworld bodies is a measure of how disassociated the offworlders really were from the colonists, who in fact were their own kith and kin at one point in history. I believe the coldness (blue) of the colors and the dismissive attitude are very intentional in this regard. Also the recurring use of red/blue suggest perhaps stratified, or autocratic, or militaristic offworld organizing structure? >Sure does seem to be something "big" going on........Going....to read it again....> Yes, yes yes, do come back and lets carry this on, no? At least until I receive Mission Child and can read more! donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:41:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: LeGuin's Earthsea In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would have to concur. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty wrote: > Funny, if I recall, Le Guin makes some very pointed messages about the > evils of pride and ego (by men of power) in this series. And even though > the wizard was a 'good' man, he still needed to learn some humility. > I always took this to be the focus of her message, rather than anything > exclusionary.... > > JB > > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Keith wrote: > > > I found this one distressing when I read it many years ago. Unlike > > other stories of LeGuin's that I had read up to that point, it seemed to > > me to be biased against women. Some stories, the excellent Nine Lives for > > example, had all-male casts, but this looked more just like writing in > > the conventions of the times. Wizard of Earthsea, though, seemed to > > define female spirituality as evil where it wasn't non-existant; only male > > spirituality had the necessary "right stuff" to be creative, powerful and > > a force for good. > > > > This one did stand out, as I don't remember other LeGuin novels with this > > bais. It reflected the very destructive myths of male spirituality and > > female evil that I was coming to realize were at the basis of the > > male-ruled religions. > > > > Kathleen > > > > > > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Rachel Massey wrote: > > > > > I have just read LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea again for the first time > > > since several years ago. It strikes me as odd that only men becom e > > > wizards. there are a few women who are witches and other lowly > > > practitioners of magic, but only men seem able to study at Roke. I find > > > it interesting that LeGuin should write about such a patriarchal > > > society, considering the other works that I have read of hers. > > > If anyone would like to comment on perhaps why she has done this, I > > > would appreciate it. I am sorry if the list has already discussed this, > > > as I don't get time to read all the messages. > > > Cheers > > > Nimiane > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:52:36 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tas ??? Subject: Speech MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'm writing a speech on utopia. I'm trying to mix books and movies and how they relate to utopia into it. I was wondering if any of you could give me your thoughts on the topic. My original thesis for my speech started out as Why do people try and reach utopia through books and movies. As I began writing it it seems as though it has changed. I'm not sure where I'm heading with it yet. I'm just trying to get ideas right now. It would really help a lot if you could get your thoughts to me before December 4th. Thanks a lot! ----- Liza Fisher woozles@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:28:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: The Cost to be Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:52:21 PST Daniel Krashin wrote: >Also, I had to question the motives and intelligence of the >"Missionaries" from Earth, in building a mission in the middle of >nowhere, then selling hard liquor to the local (heavily armed) >nomadic tribesmen, without taking any defensive measures. I think some of these things make more sense than it would seem. First, Ayudesh and Wanji are not "running things" in Sckarline (though Janna does comment at one point, "We were all supposed to be equal in Sckarline, but Ayudesh was really like a headman"). Ayudesh and Wanji's main focus is determining the appropriateness of various technologies; presumably they don't have much say about whether or not the other residents of Sckarline build a distillery and trade their whisak (a native drink, nothing "inappropriate" there). I saw the massacre as stemming directly from the increased number of guns the outrunners brought with them. Janna notices when they arrive that they have many more than usual. I have a feeling the villagers would have been far more able to defend themselves against a rowdy mob if it was armed with, say, knives rather than guns. The outrunners probably would have been less likely to start a confrontation also. I think the story makes a lot less sense if there is no connection drawn between the issue of "appropriate technology" and the guns. Clearly, other Terrans are not as high-minded as Ayudesh and Wanji and have no scruples about selling guns to the natives and introducing massive power differentials into the culture. (There is even a hint that the Terrans use the need for ammunition as a means of controlling gun-wielding natives -- to what end, one wonders.) When Wanji says, "It was a mistake," I think she is saying that she and Ayudesh misjudged the extent to which the society outside of Sckarline is being changed; that their focus on appropriate technology may have had the unintended effect of leaving the settlement helpless and backward in comparison. This lack of uniformity among the Terrans was part of what I found interesting in contrast to Le Guin's Hainish Ekumen, which seems inhumanly moral and upstanding in comparison. I wondered if there was a little conscious criticism of Le Guin in there, actually. >But it seemed to me to be a historical story with a thin veneer of >SF content (not the worst sin in SF, admittedly). Hm. It seems to me that if you strip off the "veneer" of many SF stories you end up with historical, military, imperialist or other mundane fiction. That veneer is mighty important! -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Tori Amos -- From the Choirgirl Hotel "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:24:10 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: kelly boyle Subject: LeGuin and Shakespeare MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have rashly promised to give a seminar to students doing a Masters in literature. The seminar will cover narratology and reader response, and the texts are _Macbeth_ and LeGuin's "Winter's King." Does anyone have ideas on what to do with these texts, other than point out the obvious parallells of good and bad kings? I would be very happy to get some input. Kristina Hildebrand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:44:46 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: BDG: Sparrow: online references, second posting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit As I sent the below unusually early, I'm repeating it--- I also have the uncanny feeling my posts are being deleted unread Kathleen The Sparrow (Mary Doria Russell) Online related information (Jesuit material at the end) Misc: Mary Russell's home page, with sample from Sparrow, review excerpts, Real Audio NPR review, other info: http://members.stratos.net/druss44121/sparrow.html A Case of Conscience for Mary Doria Russell, by John D. Owen (Sparrow discussed in light of James Blish's A Case of Conscience) http://www.iplus.zetnet.co.uk/nonfiction/sparjdo.htm Tiptree judge comments http://www.tiptree.org/1996/index.html Reviews: reader reviews on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0449912558/davidframbesA/002-9159955- 2151465 Review, SF Weekly, by Susan Dunman http://www.productreviewnet.com/abstracts/5/5986.htm SF Site review by Steven Silver http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/russell.html Lambda SF review by Carl Cipra http://members.aol.com/lambdasf/books/reviews/sparrow2.html Infinity Plus review by Jon Courtenay Grimwood http://www.iplus.zetnet.co.uk/nonfiction/sparjcg.htm Mysterious Galaxy bookstore, short review by Patrick M. Heffernan http://www.mystgalaxy.com/sfarchive.html short review from Cleveland Live by Kelly Bahmer-Brouse http://cleveland.com/ultrafolder/litlife/reviews/sparrow.html personal page reviews: by Matthew Scott Winslow (long review) http://members.theglobe.com/mithlond/sparrow.html by Laurie D. T. Mann http://www.city-net.com/~lmann/essays/sparrow.html by Michael Rawdon http://www.fullfeed.com/~rawdon/books/sf/russell.html#the.sparrow About Jesuits (the Society of Jesus) (I thought, for anyone not hostile from the outset to the topic, that some background info on the Jesuits & history/common myths/conjectures about their involvement with science and exploration might be of interest. After checking out hundreds of sites and multiple searches for an objective secular history, I gave up the search. There are undoubtedly such sources in print or online: anybody who cares to show off can cite them. The below are mostly official Jesuit information sites.) Official sites: General information, history http://www.jesuit.org/ on Jesuits and technology in history http://www.math.luc.edu/~vande/sj/sj_sci.html brief history http://www.fairfield.edu/jesuit/history.htm Malachi Martin: some comments on modernism & the SJ http://www.ascension-research.org/jesuits.html Dirty Laundry: History of the Jesuits by Dr. J. A. Wylie LL.D. (who succumbed to Jesuit poison in 1997) http://www.reformation.org./jesuits.html And, just for the hell of it: The home page (links to wonderful anthropology sites) of Fr. Ray Bucko, S.J., cited in MDR's acknowlegments http://www.lemoyne.edu/academic_affairs/departments/sociology_anthropology/buc ko.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: kamholse@fuse.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sally Kamholtz Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Spa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In Chaucer's The Wife of Bath's Tale, didn't the ugly woman convince a >handsome, young knight to marry her and he eventually sees her as >beautiful because he falls in love with who she is and not just her >appearance? I always liked how it was the woman who was ugly and the man >learns to love her. It's always the other way around in most stories. I >read this a long time ago so I might have it slightly wrong. >Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) The very example I was thinking of. There is also a loathly lady in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I think, though, in the Wife of Bath's Tale, the ugly old woman actually turns into a beautiful young woman--it is not just the young man's perception of her. Sally Kamholtz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:01:46 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: BDG: Snow Queen: In defence of Sparks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 05:19 PM 11/30/98 CST, Allyson wrote: >I also liked the book, but one of it's weak points was the Sparks-Moon >romance. I didn't see Moon as a Prince-like figure rescuing the >Sparks-briar-rose character. She was more like the beauty in Beauty and >the Beast. This myth that the love of a good woman can change a man is >deeply rooted in the culture. Many women are attracted to self-hating >men who they think they can change. Or women stay with abusers because >they think their womanly love may have some kind of transformative >power. I haven't read all the posts in this discussion, but from the ones I've seen, it looks to me like people are talking about two different types of relationships. In one type, the person (eg Sparks) is emotionally troubled; in the other, the person is abusive. The two aren't equivalent. In my work and training as a sexual harrassment/abuse counselor, and as a student counselor, I've run across both. In the former case, where a person has been emotionally damaged by events in his or her life, the support and love from a loved one can make a world of difference. The injured person needs someone who doesn't stand in judgement and whose love doesn't have conditions. In fact, often at least part of the reason that person may injured, emotionally, is because they haven't had that kind of love in their lives. In such relationships the effects of genuine, unconditional love truly can be transformative. I've seen it myself. This does assume, however, that there is a basic decency at the core of the person's personality. An abusive relationship it a VERY different kettle of tea. The abuser may be repeating patterns of violence or emotional manipulation he or she learned from an early age, patterns that have become so ingrained they don't know any other way of interacting with people. Or they may lack compassion or the ability to empathize with others. They often have a negatively distorted view of the people who interact with them and project their own personality problems onto others, yet become enraged or vindictive if those traits are attributed to them. Abusers usually have a strong need to be in control, and impose their will through emotional manipulation or physical violence. When a woman stays with an abusive man, it is rarely because she has bought into a myth that a good woman can save a needy man. Often she feels she =can't= leave, either because she fears for her physical safety (or life) or because the emotional manipulation has messed her up. She feels trapped. This is complicated because usually the abuser isn't always abusive. Erratic positive reinforcement is even more effective in changing behavior than continual positive reinforment, that is, the person being abused will get to the point where she (or he) will do almost anything to please the abuser in the hopes of evoking the reward of that tender, but unpredictable, behavior. It is usually difficult to solve the problems in such a relationship without counseling for all parties involved. Generally it will only work if the abuser is willing to acknowledge the problem and agree to go for help. If that person genuinely wants to break out of the cycle, then (good) counseling can help a great deal. The relationship of Moon and Sparks in THE SNOW QUEEN is of the first type. Sparks is a mess, there's no doubt about that. His experiences and the drug have taken him a long way down a road he didn't want to travel. He wants out, but doesn't know how to find his way. If I remember correctly, =Sparks= is the one in the role of the abuse victim. Nor does he have Moon's emotional strength. She doesn't judge him for that, however, she simply loves him. Which is where redemption comes in. In order for a redemption theme to work, of course, there has to be something to redeem. But in Spark's case, I remember it being there. Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:48:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: LeGuin and Shakespeare In-Reply-To: <199812021122.FAA78188@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, kelly boyle wrote: > I have rashly promised to give a seminar to students doing a Masters in > literature. The seminar will cover narratology and reader response, and the > texts are _Macbeth_ and LeGuin's "Winter's King." Does anyone have ideas on > what to do with these texts, other than point out the obvious parallells of > good and bad kings? I would be very happy to get some input. > Kristina Hildebrand > What a wonderful idea! The first thing that comes to mind, of course, is to consider how a lack of gender effects things. One of Lady Macbeth's motivating factors, I've always felt, is that she would like to have been, if not a man, then at least the person in power. Sanity versus mental illness is another issue. The King of Karhide is clearly unstable from day one. Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are both driven mad, perhaps, by some combination of guilt, greed, ambition, etc. Let us know how it turns out. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:22:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanna Goltzman Subject: "ugly" women and love Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In Chaucer's The Wife of Bath's Tale, didn't the ugly woman convince a handsome, young knight to marry her and he eventually sees her as beautiful because he falls in love with who she is and not just her appearance? I always liked how it was the woman who was ugly and the man learns to love her. It's always the other way around in most stories. I read this a long time ago so I might have it slightly wrong. > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) Stacey, If I remember correctly, the ugly old woman in the wife of bath's tale gives the knight the answer to a riddle that saves his life. In return she demands he marry her. The knight grudgingly does so, and the woman asks him if he would prefer an ugly wife who no one else desires and is loyal to him or a beautiful wife who would be desired by others and might not be so loyal. The knight lets her decide (giving her sovereignty--the answer to the original riddle of what women want most from men) and the woman becomes beautiful and says she'll be loyal, too. The wife of bath herself, on the other hand, is past youth and not as attractive as she once was. She can be thought of as the "ugly woman" who the audience comes to appreciate through her personality--bawdy sense of humor, wit, cheerful acceptance of her lot in life, etc. To bring this back to science fiction, Marghe, at the end of Nicola Griffith's _Ammonite_, has scars on her face and is missing two fingers, but still finds love. Marghe never is described as ugly, but her scars and missing fingers traditionally would be thought of as defects by most members of American society. Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:20:35 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -Sandy wrote >And I'm an American woman from the Northwest, and have yet to know a guy >well enough who isn't circumsized, as well. All of them are in their late >20's/early 30's now; anyone know what the percentages were in the late >60's/early 70's in the US? > >Bertina wrote >I find this comment surprising. I am a Protestant midwestern American >woman and I have never dated a man who had not been circumsized. This is >also true of all my friends that talk about such things. Circumcision was >very much the norm when and where I grew up. Hi all, Since we seem to be taking a poll :), I'm a late-1950's generation Californian. I never had a boyfriend in the States who wasn't circumcised. (Naturally this was not an exhaustive survey ;-). OTOH, as an American ex-pat here in the UK, I often find myself discussing cultural differences with friends and aquaintances. In my experience, and confirmed by British women friends (some of whom are parents), most British men (of all ages) are not circumcised, unless there is a specific religious, or serious medical, reason. Hygiene alone doesn't seem to be regarded as a good enough reason. It's just one of those cultural things I guess. It's all what you're used to. We in the States are also thought of (by many doctors here) as being "over-treated" by our doctors. It's generally thought that malpractice suits are the main cause of this. This is all just anecdotal info. On the whole, I have found it very, um, "enlightening" to learn how Americans are thought of in Britain and Europe. FWIW, Monica A Californian ex-pat in Hampshire, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:11:10 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: "ugly" women and love Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/98 9:24:00 PM, you wrote: <> Interesting thread, this. There is also Honor Harrington, who is disfigured and repaired with the advanced doctoring techniques but she isn't quite as pretty after the implants (she is never described as beautiful) . In the newest of this saga, she is missing an arm and her "plastic surgery" has been brutally burned out. Not real sure what point David Weber is making with this. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:55:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: "ugly" women and love MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phoebe, I'm within 100 pages of the end of "In Enemy Hands" (and since I'm one of those annoying people who don't mind at all knowing how it ends, I already checked out the last few pages!). I suspect that what David Weber is doing in this book is putting his character into her own worst nightmare and then showing the reader how she deals with it. I'm drawing this conclusion more from what happens to Nimitz, and how Honor and her 'cat affect each other during their captivity, than I am from her reactions to her physical losses - although I suppose those may become more important to her later on, after she's back somewhere where she can feel safe. I do like the fact that Paul Tankersley wasn't the least bit put off by Honor's implants, and I can't imagine that the next man in her life is going to be put off by either the "plastic surgery" or the artificial arm she will surely be acquiring soon. She got past valuing (and therefore, coveting) attention from men who can't see the person behind the face and body, quite some time ago - although like most of us, she did pass through that phase while maturing from girl into woman. And she's not the first person, fictitious or real, who grew up in that respect long after becoming an adult in other ways. I also liked Weber's theory (put into Mike Henke's mouth, somewhere earlier in the series) that having a completely honest and loving relationship with an empathic partner, would make Honor and other "adoptees" expect more from a romantic partner. I'm almost sorry I'm getting near the end! It's been a great read. Nina Phoebe Wray wrote: > Interesting thread, this. There is also Honor Harrington, who is disfigured > and repaired with the advanced doctoring techniques but she isn't quite as > pretty after the implants (she is never described as beautiful) . In the > newest of this saga, she is missing an arm and her "plastic surgery" has been > brutally burned out. Not real sure what point David Weber is making with > this. > > best > phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:17:17 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: FGM For those interested in a further discussion by Martha Coventry of the trend toward genitally mutilating children who don't conform to physical standards see this article in the summer of 98 On the Issues magazine. http://www.igc.org/onissues/su98coventry.html Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:16:04 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: "ugly" women and love Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mike thanks, and yes I concur. ANd I think I am to be soundly chastied for a SPOILER. Yoikes -- wasn't thinking. I have devoured the Harrington series and enjoyed them all. Yes, I too loved the way Honor "comes of age," falls in love, comes to value herself as a woman. nice post. thanks. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:50:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne Vespry Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: <199811241533.JAA21372@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Robin, A while ago you asked: > I wonder how many people know when the > LAST instance of female genital mutilation was recorded as being performed > in the United States of America? and I was wondering whether you ever got an answer. I'm in the middle of writing an essay and the answer to this question would be likely to be useful in making one of the points I'm trying to make. If you did get an answer, and especially if it is citeable, I'd really appreciate hearing what it was. Thanks, Anne Anne Vespry ******* http://www.vex.net/~maverick After Stonewall Bookshop ***** never forget avespry(at) *** only dead fish ollisdotuottawadotca * swim WITH the stream ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:20:08 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Subject: Re: "ugly" women and love In-Reply-To: <3665D362.FD025E82@mint.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:55 PM 12/2/98 -0500, Nina wrote: (some spoilage for the Honor Harrington series)... x x x x x x x x x x >Phoebe, I'm within 100 pages of the end of "In Enemy Hands" (and since I'm >one of >those annoying people who don't mind at all knowing how it ends, I already >checked out the last few pages!). Bad Nina, no biscuit! Just kidding...I do that myself with all the installments! Pot...Kettle...Black. x x x x x x >I suspect that what David Weber is doing in this book is putting his >character into her own worst nightmare and then showing >the reader how she deals with it. I'm drawing this conclusion more from what >happens to Nimitz, and how Honor and her 'cat affect each other during their >captivity, than I am from her reactions to her physical losses - although I >suppose those may become more important to her later on, after she's back >somewhere where she can feel safe. Indeed, Honor is definitely dragged down and the only way she can endure is to find the core of strength within. This book was probably the very hardest of the series to date to read because it is sooo dark at that part of the tale. If you read hardbacks, at least the next book (Echoes of Honor) is there for you to find out what happens next...those of us who grab the hardbacks first thing were absolutely *writhing* last year wanting to know what happened next after IEH. Many electrons were diverted in the DW newsgroup on speculation. And we're now stomping up and down for the 9th book...sheesh, fans...we're never satisfied :). > >I do like the fact that Paul Tankersley wasn't the least bit put off by Honor's >implants, and I can't imagine that the next man in her life is going to be put >off by either the "plastic surgery" or the artificial arm she will surely be >acquiring soon. She got past valuing (and therefore, coveting) attention from >men who can't see the person behind the face and body, quite some time ago - >although like most of us, she did pass through that phase while maturing from >girl into woman. Poor Paul, there was so much potential there and it got lost, but boy did Honor get her vengeance! > >And she's not the first person, fictitious or real, who grew up in that respect >long after becoming an adult in other ways. I also liked Weber's theory (put >into Mike Henke's mouth, somewhere earlier in the series) that having a >completely honest and loving relationship with an empathic partner, would make >Honor and other "adoptees" expect more from a romantic partner. > >I'm almost sorry I'm getting near the end! It's been a great read. > >Nina > We've seen a few other treecat adoptees in the series now, it would be interesting to see more of how the others (Queen Elizabeth, Admiral Georgides, and Miranda LaFollet as of the beginning of IEH) are dealing with these demands when it comes to relationships. The Queen is in perhaps the most tenuous position, it would be hard enough to find a partner who saw the woman under the crown, but when that woman has a treecat to evaluate the possibilities, the pickings would be even thinner. Here's another tangent for the list Honorphiles to consider...I think Honor's got a interesting relationship with her mother...I detect a bit of ambivalence under all the love. The only woman I see Honor having a real close relationship with is with Mike Henke, but the other female Manticoran characters besides Allison Harrington are never quite Honor's peers, and I don't see any woman being a mentor for her to date (certainly not Lady Sonja "Horrible" Hemphill!), the closest I could see is perhaps Katherine Mayhew. And I've not gotten to see nearly as much of Mike Henke as I would like. This topic doesn't get too much discussion in alt.books.david-weber...I'm interested to hear what you all are thinking. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." -Matt Ruff in Sewer, Gas, and Electric Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:28:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: "ugly" women and love Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ahhhh Honor Harrington... I read the second book first, then went out and bought them all. **** POSSIBLE SPOILERS Yes, I wonder about the mother/daughter relationship. But I love the way it is set up with her mother being unconventional. I'm so used to Honor in a heroic mode that I don't think about her being, actually, rather conservative. She bucks the system but it's just because who she is and what she does. Her mother seems to deliberately flaunt the rules and is mischievous, a word I wouldn't use to describe Honor. And yes, bring on Mike. Someone told me earlier this year that he had heard -- at a writer's conference -- that Weber has a 16-book contract. Be still my heart! best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:35:13 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Subject: Re: "ugly" women and love In-Reply-To: <1ad56bfd.36660572@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:28 PM 12/2/98 -0500, Phoebe wrote: >Ahhhh Honor Harrington... I read the second book first, then went out and >bought them all. > >**** POSSIBLE SPOILERS > > > > > > > > > >Yes, I wonder about the mother/daughter relationship. But I love the way it >is set up with her mother being unconventional. I'm so used to Honor in a >heroic mode that I don't think about her being, actually, rather conservative. >She bucks the system but it's just because who she is and what she does. And the Manticoran and Grayson systems aren't set up to handle a person who does what she does so well! > Her >mother seems to deliberately flaunt the rules and is mischievous, a word I >wouldn't use to describe Honor. It does seem to be a twist on the more usual story of unconventional child takes on the parents. Allison is actually quite refreshing...I'm thinking all the way back to the second book (the one that got you hooked) where Allison is quite openly checking out Honor's executive officer at a party, Honor is embarrassed as all get out, and her father just grins and goes with the program. Honor's dad is also someone I want to see more of. And Allison on Grayson is bound to shatter all kinds of barriers with wit and style...the ones her daughter is more tempted to take on with pulser and sword. > >And yes, bring on Mike. Someone told me earlier this year that he had heard >-- at a writer's conference -- that Weber has a 16-book contract. Be still my >heart! > >best >phoebe I want to see Mike because not only does Honor need her friend who knew her before she became a living legend, I think she could have an interesting place to view the Manticoran establishment from. And, from what I've gathered in my correspondence with David, there's a whole lot more storytelling to go. Thank the Warrior Goddess for this, but I don't know if my patience will stand the wait. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." -Matt Ruff in Sewer, Gas, and Electric Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:34:15 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: The Cost to Be Wise In-Reply-To: <002301be1d9b$201906c0$cfb11b26@donna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" S P O I L E R > >Okay I am going to take a huge leap here......it struck me that Janna and Tuuvin were an "Adam and Eve" pairing. The title "The Cost >of Wisdom" has been puzzling me for days. I just _know_ McHugh is trying to tell me something more there than the superficial. >Tonight when I was reading it again. It just struck me....What cast Adam and Eve out of the garden of eden was eating the apple of >wisdom wasn't it? Or it was knowledge, no? Heck I dont know, as I said _a huge leap_, but something about them already having been a >young, physically intimate, male/female pair, destined to mate and in the end left cast out of the mission/settlement and left >standing their with their (inconsequential) "gifts".....I dont know. Not having read the book, at least I can offer my Biblical "learning". Eating the fruit of knowledge resulted in the expulsion from Eden, lest that next they eat the fruit of immortality. There is also the book of Wisdom and the Wisdom of "Syrak",(whatever that is in English) both apocryphic texts of the Old Testament. Whether or not something in one of them ties in I wouldn't know, not having read the book yet - but it is fascinating to follow discussions on a book you haven't read, makes my mouth water... It's 11.30 PM in Sweden and I have to go to bed. If I have the time tomorrow I'll glance through those two and see if I hit upon a quotation that may have any bearing. Britt-Inger ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 05:46:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Since we seem to be taking a poll ......> Heavens forbid! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII erm, the quote you used did not come from me-dont know who, but it wasnt me. I have 2 nephews who arent circumsized. I know of men who arent as well. I live in the south. Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, M.J.Norman wrote: > -Sandy wrote > >And I'm an American woman from the Northwest, and have yet to know a guy > >well enough who isn't circumsized, as well. All of them are in their late > >20's/early 30's now; anyone know what the percentages were in the late > >60's/early 70's in the US? > > > >Bertina wrote > >I find this comment surprising. I am a Protestant midwestern American > >woman and I have never dated a man who had not been circumsized. This is > >also true of all my friends that talk about such things. Circumcision was > >very much the norm when and where I grew up. > > Hi all, > Since we seem to be taking a poll :), I'm a late-1950's generation > Californian. I never had a boyfriend in the States who wasn't circumcised. > (Naturally this was not an exhaustive survey ;-). > > OTOH, as an American ex-pat here in the UK, I often find myself discussing > cultural differences with friends and aquaintances. In my experience, and > confirmed by British women friends (some of whom are parents), most British > men (of all ages) are not circumcised, unless there is a specific > religious, or serious medical, reason. Hygiene alone doesn't seem to be > regarded as a good enough reason. > > It's just one of those cultural things I guess. It's all what you're used > to. We in the States are also thought of (by many doctors here) as being > "over-treated" by our doctors. It's generally thought that malpractice > suits are the main cause of this. > This is all just anecdotal info. On the whole, I have found it very, um, > "enlightening" to learn how Americans are thought of in Britain and Europe. > > FWIW, > > Monica > A Californian ex-pat in Hampshire, UK. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:32:27 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barclay Blanchard Subject: Sheri Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm new to the list so please forgive me if this is a previously discussed topic. I've heard that 2 of Sheri Tepper's books are sequels to Grass... maybe Raising the Stones is one of them? Does anyone know? Could you point me in a direction for finding out? Thanks! Barclay B. (who just finished The Awakeners) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:30:49 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: BDG: Sparrow--Oh, No! In-Reply-To: <37c782cc.36559a54@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know it isn't time to start this discussion but I am having trouble getting into this book. I'm about halfway through and I can't seem to finish it. I really hated it that the most important elements of the book were given away -on the back cover-. Who came up with that brilliant marketing idea? Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:05:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BDG: Sparrow--Oh, No! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I had just the opposite reaction - I had misread the book list and read it last month - I just devoured it, lost way too much sleep to read it. I've been waiting with anticipation for the discussion - I'm now in the middle of the sequel. Sheryl > ---------- > From: Stacey Holbrook[SMTP:ausar@NETDOOR.COM] > Reply To: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 10:30 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Sparrow--Oh, No! > > I know it isn't time to start this discussion but I am having trouble > getting into this book. I'm about halfway through and I can't seem to > finish it. I really hated it that the most important elements of the book > were given away -on the back cover-. Who came up with that brilliant > marketing idea? > > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Raising the Stones Sideshow On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:32:27 EST Barclay Blanchard writes: >I'm new to the list so please forgive me if this is a previously >discussed topic. > >I've heard that 2 of Sheri Tepper's books are sequels to Grass... >maybe Raising the Stones is one of them? Does anyone know? >Could you point me in a direction for finding out? > >Thanks! >Barclay B. >(who just finished The Awakeners) > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:37:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: new comment on old thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A new book THE WISDOM OF OZ has been published, written by Baum's great granddaughter. Includes discussion of WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ as "a metaphor for personal growth, spiritual transformation and the emergence of the feminine." Have not read it myself, just came to my attention because the author is local. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:46:48 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "M.J.Norman" Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >erm, the quote you used did not come from me-dont know who, but it wasnt >me. I have 2 nephews who arent circumsized. I know of men who arent as >well. I live in the south. > >Bertina >bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu Perhaps it was from someone else in a post of yours. Sorry. :) Monica ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:58:40 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation I can't remember the exact date of the last US operation, but the following article may give it: Duffy, John, ^ÓMasturbation and Clitoridectomy: a nineteenth century view.^Ô _Journal of the American Medical Association_ 186 (1963): 246-248. The operation was being suggested in Holt's standard textbook _Diseases of Infancy and Childhood_, 1936 edition: this doesn't of course mean it was being performed. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:38 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: last clitoridectomy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/3/98 11:03:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, Lesley_Hall@CLASSIC.MSN.COM writes: << I can't remember the exact date of the last US operation, >> The reference I have is in "For her Own Good", by Ehrenrich and English, page 111 of the 1978 edition. "In the United States, the last recorded clitoridectomy for curing masturbation was performed in 1948...on a five year old girl." Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:05:25 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I downloaded the reference to the article on FGM in On The Issues which someone had kindly posted, and was appalled. Obviously it is happening in the US right now, and probably in New Zealand and Australia as well. The author of the article (at home - terrible memory) says around five girls a day in the US have their clitoris cut because it is "too big". The similarity of the reasons given by the US surgeons in this article and defenders of FGM in countries where it is done routinely to young girls struck me forcibly. I knew "gender reassignment" surgery was still being performed in hospitals, but thought this was only in cases of complete ambiguity. I thought attitudes to this practice would have changed among surgeons as people to whom it had been done got organised and lobbied. But it's an issue of power to surgeons, as usual, and they refuse to acknowledge that supposedly good intentions lead to bad outcomes for those under the knife. Jenny Rankine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:11:05 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/3/98 12:04:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, jrankine@HRC.GOVT.NZ writes: << Obviously it is happening in the US right now, and probably in New Zealand and Australia as well. The author of the article (at home - terrible memory) says around five girls a day in the US have their clitoris cut because it is "too big". >> You know, it has been really hard for me to believe that this was no longer being done so I appreciate the reference. Could you please re-send the reference? Thanks! Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:23:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty Subject: Re: The Cost to Be Wise In-Reply-To: <002301be1d9b$201906c0$cfb11b26@donna> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Donna wrote: "Okay I am going to take a huge leap here......it struck me that Janna and Tuuvin were an "Adam and Eve" pairing." (Warning: extremely vague, long, and not very well written!!!) I don't think that is such a big leap...Veronique's bag which so intrigues Janna is red--although they never discover what is in it as they do the blue box--and Janna remarks on its beauty (to herself) several times. Also, Tuuvin controls the dogs and talks to the spirits. I'm still turning the title around and around...the use of "cost" (as opposed to "price")implies a conscious decision to purchase...a knowledge beforehand of what you are going to pay...again, I'm back to the idea that the founders of the mission knew what was going to happen before it happened...wanted it to happen for some reason.... "Wisdom" is also interesting...perhaps McHugh just didn't want to go with the obviously biblical "knowledge"....but today there is generally a distinction made between "knowledge" and "wisdom" (library school stuff...you have your data (information) which is potential knowledge...which is potential wisdom). So If Adam and Eve have already received the "apple of knowlege" the next step for them would be to know how apply the knowlege in order to achieve wisdom...so I'm back to the beginning of thinking the mission was an evolutionary experiment designed to....arrgh! Obviously a beginning, but are we dealing with an inversion of the Adam and Eve story, a re-telling, or what? Other interesting things I can't do anything with yet... Sckarline is one of the coldest places out there...weather-wise of course, but people-wise too. Mam hits Janna; Janna may have been sexually abused by her Da (her thoughts on Veronique's attack make me think this); no one, including Tuuvin (who she lets kiss her so she can "whisper" to him and walk with him)and Wanji (who coldy lies to her about the implants) are especially nice to Janna. She says that "Sckarline is neither earth nor sky...and that she is "living her life in between." Where do their religious/ceremonial customs derive from: Janna is embarrassed that they have no "earth" stories for the anthropologists; she was taught that the settlers came out of the sun...they bury possessions with the dead...they "follow the dead as far as the living can" sounds like ancient Egypt. Was it bad timing that Veronique and the Scathalos showed up at the roughly the same time.... JB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:22:17 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barclay Blanchard Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:07:14 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: marcie begleiter Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In a message dated Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:11:05 EST > "Demetria M. Shew" writes: You know, it has been really hard for me to believe that this was no longer being done so I appreciate the reference. Could you please re-send the reference? Another two articles on the subject can be found in the archives of the New York Times . They appeared on May 13, 1997 and Dec. 28, 1996. I'm not sure if you can use newspaper stories for the type of work you are doing, but they cover both the clitorectomy for gender ambiguity and those done by recent African immigrants. I've got them on disk if you'd like me to e-mail them to you , I'd be happy to do so. Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:03:24 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Honor Harrington cont'd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/3/98 4:34:25 AM, Cynthia wrote: << want to see Mike because not only does Honor need her friend who knew her before she became a living legend,>> Interesting point. Her friends do seem to explode along the way. And it is a different pov from new ones. Glad to hear that Weber has lots more Honor stories in him. Looking forward. With no patience whatsoever. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:17:27 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Sparrow discussion starts Monday In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My guess is that I'm not the only one that's not quite through the book, so hold your horses until Monday when the discussion actually starts. If you put off reading the Sparrow, now would be a good time to get started on it! At 11:05 AM 12/03/98 -0500, you wrote: >I had just the opposite reaction - I had misread the book list and read it >last month - I just devoured it, lost way too much sleep to read it. I've >been waiting with anticipation for the discussion - I'm now in the middle of >the sequel. >Sheryl > >> ---------- >> From: Stacey Holbrook[SMTP:ausar@NETDOOR.COM] >> Reply To: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian >> literature >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 10:30 AM >> To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Sparrow--Oh, No! >> >> I know it isn't time to start this discussion but I am having trouble >> getting into this book. I'm about halfway through and I can't seem to >> finish it. I really hated it that the most important elements of the book >> were given away -on the back cover-. Who came up with that brilliant >> marketing idea? >> >> Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:59:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Juliet O'Keefe Subject: Has anyone ever heard of Hope Mirrlees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As above: she published during the 1920s, was on the fringes of Bloomsbury; she wrote a fantasy novel called Lud-in-the-Mist and published it in 1926 in England and '27 in America--it was reprinted in 1970 as part of the Adult Fantasy series put out by Ballantine (in the wake of the success of Lord of the Rings, I assume). If anyone has any information about her, or how I could get hold of her other novels (Counterplot and Madeleine: One of Love's Jansenists) or any criticism (there's next to nothing on MLA) I would be grateful! I appreciate that this is not a forum for discussion of fantasy published decades ago, but I thought it likely that some of the list members might be well informed on the history of fantasy and science fiction and may be able to point me in some directions I haven't tried yet. Thanks. Juliet okeefe@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:13:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erin Garrett Organization: None Subject: [ FW: Men And Women] OT but a must read] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_i3MBT4yzeTu2/4H+rNJZIA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_i3MBT4yzeTu2/4H+rNJZIA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I found this very suggestive. . . of what, I'm not sure. Enjoy. ^×Erin --Boundary_(ID_i3MBT4yzeTu2/4H+rNJZIA) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:49:47 -0700 From: Erin Garrett Subject: [Fwd: FW: Men And Women] A must read To: adrienne , Alison Prasser , Anne , Cynthia Kuhn , Eddy , Eileen , Jack boynton , Kathy Joyce , Maggy , Sharon Vincent , Thomas and Mom Message-id: <36674DCB.E587B4E8@du.edu> Organization: None MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_MeJpJr4QaC5WC5ZBz7SO+Q)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_MeJpJr4QaC5WC5ZBz7SO+Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Remember the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"? Well, > here's a prime example offered by an English professor at Southern > Methodist University: > English 44A > SMU, Creative Writing > Prof. Miller > In-class Assignment for Wednesday: > "Today we will experiment with a new form called the tandem story. The > process is simple. Each person will pair off. One of you will then write > the first paragraph > of a short story. The partner will read the first paragraph and then add > another > paragraph to the story. The first person will then add a third paragraph, > > and so on back and forth. Remember to re-read what has been > written each time in order to keep the story coherent. The > story is over when both agree a conclusion has been reached." > >> > "The following was actually turned in by two of my English students: > Rebecca - last name deleted, and Gary - last name deleted." > ----------------------------------------------------------- > >> STORY: > >> At first, Laurie couldn't decide which kind of > tea she wanted. The chamomile, which used to be her favorite for > lazy evenings at home, now reminded her too much of Carl, who once > said, in happier times, that he liked chamomile. But she felt she must > now, at all costs, keep her mind off Carl. His possessiveness was > suffocating, and if she thought about him too much her asthma started > acting up > again. So chamomile was out of the question. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Meanwhile, Advance Sergeant Carl Harris, leader of the attack squadron > now in orbit over Skylon 4, had more important things to think about than > the neuroses of an air-headed asthmatic bimbo named Laurie with whom he > had spent one sweaty night over a year ago. "A.S. Harris to Geostation > 17," he said into his transgalactic communicator."Polar orbit > established. No sign of resistance so far..." But before he could sign > off a bluish particle beam flashed out of nowhere and blasted a hole > through his ship's cargo bay. The jolt from the direct hit sent him > flying out of his seat and across the cockpit. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > He bumped his head and died almost immediately, > but not before he felt one last pang of regret for psychically brutalizing > the one > woman who had ever had feelings for him. Soon afterwards, Earth stopped > its pointless hostilities towards the peaceful farmers of Skylon 4. > "Congress Passes Law Permanently Abolishing War and Space Travel," Laurie > read in her newspaper one morning. The news simultaneously excited her > and bored her. She stared out the window,dreaming of her youth -- when > the days had passed unhurriedly > and carefree,with no newspapers to read, no television to distract her > from her sense > of innocent wonder at all the beautiful things around her. "Why must one > lose one's innocence to become a woman?" she pondered wistfully. > --------------------------------------------------------- > >> Little did she know, but she had less than 10 > seconds to live. Thousands of miles above the city, the Anu'udrian > mothership > launched the first of its lithium fusion missiles. The dim-witted wimpy > peaceniks who pushed the Unilateral Aerospace Disarmament > Treaty through Congress had left Earth a defenseless target for the > hostile alien empires who were determined to destroy the > human race.Within two hours after the passage of the treaty the > Anu'udrian ships were on course for Earth, carrying enough firepower to > pulverize the entire planet. With no one to stop them, they swiftly > initiated their diabolical plan. The lithium fusion missile entered the > atmosphere unimpeded. The President, in his top-secret > mobile submarine headquarters on the ocean floor off the coast of > Guam, felt the inconceivably massive explosion which vaporized > Laurie and 85 million other Americans. The President slammed his fist > on the conference table. "We can't allow this! I'm going to veto that > treaty! Let's blow'em out of the sky!" > ---------------------------------------------------------- > This is absurd. I refuse to continue this mockery of literature. My > writing partner is a violent, chauvinistic, semi-literate adolescent. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Yeah? Well, you're a self-centered tedious neurotic whose attempts at > writing are the literary equivalent of Valium. > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> Asshole. > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Bitch. --Boundary_(ID_MeJpJr4QaC5WC5ZBz7SO+Q) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Return-path: WENDY.PLATTUS@360.com Received: from relay1.phx.genuity.net by du.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #28062) with ESMTP id <0F3E009DJ3XYDV@du.edu> for egarrett@du.edu; Thu, 03 Dec 1998 05:56:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from ilchicagohs3.360 (ip-22.ord1.genuity.net [207.240.156.22]) by relay1.phx.genuity.net (GTEI SMTP) with ESMTP id MAA19096; Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:57:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ilchicagohs3.360 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:01:15 -0600 Content-return: allowed Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 06:49:00 -0600 From: WENDY.PLATTUS@360.com Subject: FW: Men And Women To: AMiller@virtualogic.com, brooke@newdominion.com, egarrett@du.edu, foxconst@cmn.net, heharrison@dttus.com, Hncgarrett@aol.com, hooyago@aol.com, HUNTERALL@aol.com, Jcshhf@aol.com, jlh2b@faraday.clas.virginia.edu, kbatten@pinnaclestudios.com, kriz@mindspring.com, LBatten584@aol.com, mrbwinkle@aol.com, mrivero@earthlink.net, oldbiddie@aol.com, pirates21@hotmail.com, prakov@horngroup.com, Sharonv@RoweFurniture.com, shubiehalll@aol.com, Susan.Greer@MS01.DO.treas.sprint.com, TCole61629@aol.com, TGarrett34@aol.com Message-id: <199812031257.MAA19096@relay1.phx.genuity.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >> Subject: FW: Men And Women >> Remember the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"? Well, >> here's a prime example offered by an English professor at Southern >> Methodist University: >> >> >> English 44A >> SMU, Creative Writing >> Prof. Miller >> >> In-class Assignment for Wednesday: >> "Today we will experiment with a new form called the tandem story. >> The process is simple. Each person will pair off. >> >> One of you will then write the first paragraph of a short story. >> The partner will read the first paragraph and then add another >> paragraph to the story. The first person will then add a third >> paragraph, and so on back and forth. Remember to re-read what >> has been written each time in order to keep the story coherent. >> The story is over when both agree a conclusion has been reached." >> >> "The following was actually turned in by two of my English >> students: >> Rebecca - last name deleted, and Gary - last name deleted." >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> STORY: >> >> At first, Laurie couldn't decide which kind of tea she wanted. >> The chamomile, which used to be her favorite for lazy evenings at >> home, now reminded her too much of Carl, who once said, in happier >> times, that he liked chamomile. But she felt she must now, at all >> costs, keep her mind off Carl. His possessiveness was suffocating, >> and if she thought about him too much her asthma started acting up >> again. So chamomile was out of the question. >> ----------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> Meanwhile, Advance Sergeant Carl Harris, leader of the attack >> squadron now in orbit over Skylon 4, had more important things to >> think about than the neuroses of an air-headed asthmatic bimbo >> named Laurie with whom he had spent one sweaty night over a year >> ago. "A.S. Harris to Geostation 17," he said into his >> transgalactic communicator. "Polar orbit established. No sign of >> resistance so far..." But before he could sign off a bluish >> particle beam flashed out of nowhere and blasted a hole through >> his ship's cargo bay. The jolt from the direct hit sent him flying >> out of his seat and across the cockpit. >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> He bumped his head and died almost immediately, but not before he >> felt one last pang of regret for psychically brutalizing the one >> woman who had ever had feelings for him. Soon afterwards, Earth >> stopped its pointless hostilities towards the peaceful farmers of >> Skylon 4. >> >> "Congress Passes Law Permanently Abolishing War and Space Travel," >> Laurie read in her newspaper one morning. The news simultaneously >> excited her and bored her. She stared out the window, dreaming of >> her youth -- when the days had passed unhurriedly and carefree, >> with no newspapers to read, no television to distract her from her >> sense of innocent wonder at all the beautiful things around her. >> "Why must one lose one's innocence to become a woman?" she >> pondered wistfully. >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Little did she know, but she had less than 10 seconds to live. >> Thousands of miles above the city, the Anu'udrian mothership >> launched the first of its lithium fusion missiles. The dim-witted >> wimpy peaceniks who pushed the Unilateral Aerospace Disarmament >> Treaty through Congress had left Earth a defenseless target for >> the hostile alien empires who were determined to destroy the human >> race. Within two hours after the passage of the treaty the >> Anu'udrian ships were on course for Earth, carrying enough >> firepower to pulverize the entire planet. With no one to stop >> them, they swiftly initiated their diabolical plan. The lithium >> fusion missile entered the atmosphere unimpeded. The President, >> in his top-secret mobile submarine headquarters on the ocean floor >> off the coast of Guam, felt the inconceivably massive explosion >> which vaporized Laurie and 85 million other Americans. The >> President slammed his fist on the conence table. >> "We can't allow this! I'm going to veto that treaty! Let's >> blow'em out of the sky!" >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This is absurd. I refuse to continue this mockery of literature. >> My writing partner is a violent, chauvinistic, semi-literate >> adolescent. >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Yeah? Well, you're a self-centered tedious neurotic whose >> attempts at writing are the literary equivalent of Valium. >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Asshole. >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Bitch. --Boundary_(ID_MeJpJr4QaC5WC5ZBz7SO+Q) Content-type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name=vcard.vcf Content-description: Card for Erin Garrett Content-disposition: attachment; filename=vcard.vcf Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT begin: vcard fn: Erin Garrett n: Garrett;Erin email;internet: egarrett@du.edu note: "Without a metaphor I cannot live." MWS, March 17, 1823 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --Boundary_(ID_MeJpJr4QaC5WC5ZBz7SO+Q)-- --Boundary_(ID_i3MBT4yzeTu2/4H+rNJZIA) Content-type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name=vcard.vcf Content-description: Card for Erin Garrett Content-disposition: attachment; filename=vcard.vcf Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT begin: vcard fn: Erin Garrett n: Garrett;Erin email;internet: egarrett@du.edu note: "Without a metaphor I cannot live." MWS, March 17, 1823 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --Boundary_(ID_i3MBT4yzeTu2/4H+rNJZIA)-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:33:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Has anyone ever heard of Hope Mirrlees? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981203175907.00696630@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Juliet O'Keefe wrote: > As above: she published during the 1920s, was on the fringes of > Bloomsbury; she wrote a fantasy novel called Lud-in-the-Mist and > published it in 1926 in England and '27 in America--it was reprinted > in 1970 as part of the Adult Fantasy series put out by Ballantine > (in the wake of the success of Lord of the Rings, I assume). > > If anyone has any information about her, or how I could get hold > of her other novels (Counterplot and Madeleine: One of Love's > Jansenists) or any criticism (there's next to nothing on MLA) > I would be grateful! > > I appreciate that this is not a forum for discussion of fantasy > published decades ago, but I thought it likely that some of the > list members might be well informed on the history of fantasy > and science fiction and may be able to point me in some directions > I haven't tried yet. > > Thanks. > > Juliet > okeefe@sfu.ca > I remember enjoying this novel when Lin Carter brought it out as part of the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series in the early 1970s. Clute and Grant have a couple of paragraphs about her in their Encyclopedia of Fantasy Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:41:17 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Has anyone ever heard of Hope Mirrlees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Milwaukee Public Library has in it's collection both _Counterplot_ [1926] and her short story collection _The Book of the Bear_ [1925]. You could inter-library loan them. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 "That All May Read!" My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them! >>> "Juliet O'Keefe" 12/03 7:59 PM >>> As above: she published during the 1920s, was on the fringes of Bloomsbury; she wrote a fantasy novel called Lud-in-the-Mist and published it in 1926 in England and '27 in America--it was reprinted in 1970 as part of the Adult Fantasy series put out by Ballantine (in the wake of the success of Lord of the Rings, I assume). If anyone has any information about her, or how I could get hold of her other novels (Counterplot and Madeleine: One of Love's Jansenists) or any criticism (there's next to nothing on MLA) I would be grateful! I appreciate that this is not a forum for discussion of fantasy published decades ago, but I thought it likely that some of the list members might be well informed on the history of fantasy and science fiction and may be able to point me in some directions I haven't tried yet. Thanks. Juliet okeefe@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:39:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Organization: Geminiwalker, Inc. Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9580167693B8B278B7369DF9" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9580167693B8B278B7369DF9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I can't let this thread go on any longer without sharing the benefit of Mary Daly's wisdom for those who have not read Gyn/Ecology, even though she is not a SF writer ... unfortunately, her writing is all, all too true: "Clearly the project of purifying society of women has been problematic for gynecologists since all women are ontologically impure according to the implicit assumptions of patriarchal myth. To follow through too rapidly on the logical conclusion of these assumptions -- that is, the Final Solution -- would mean premature extinction of women before technological replacements could be 'discovered.' [a la Stepford Wives]. Not surprisingly, therefore, the Planners (e.g., physicians, theologians, ethicists) formulated a flexible concept of impurity which functions to justify the 'partial' cutting out of women from society through the magic of labeling. The concept of 'moral impurity' (with variations on this theme) has served their purposes. In 1866, Dr. Isaac Ray stated: 'In the sexual evolution, in pregnancy, in the parturient period, in lactation, strange thoughts, extraordinary feelings, unseasonable appetites, criminal impulses, may haunt a mind at other times innocent and pure.' Ray was no an isolated case. We have already noted that in 1848 Dr. Charles Meigs had informed his gynecological pupils that the female organs exert 'strange and secret influences' even on 'the very soul of woman.' He concluded from this that gynecological study must not be purely medical, 'but psychological and moral.' The gynecologist as priest, guru, omniscient Understander and Guide of the femal soul (condensed and displaced into her sexual organs0 is thus given his Holy Orders and Great Commission to go forth and cut. Gardner and other gynecologists of his age saw masturbation, contraception, abortion and orgasm as sexual transgressions which were in the ultimate analysis functions of faulty sexual organs. Their theme song and panacea was 'cut it out.' Cutting it out has taken a number of lucrative forms, rewarding not only financially but also psychologically to sadistic surgeons. Clitoridectomies were approved among the doctors as their cure for female masturbation. Of course, this also functioned also as a basic cure for orgasm. This operation, wholeheartedly endorsed and practiced by such nineteenth-century male-factors of women as J. Marion Sims, was still performed well into the twentieth century. Another operation known as 'female castration' or 'oopherectomy' or 'normal ovariotomy' (removing of ovaries) was a widespread medical mania between 1880 and 1900 and began to decline during the first decade of this century -- although 'women were still being castrated for psychological disorders as late as 1946'. Mary Daly has an entire chapter on African Female Genital Mutilation, but is careful not to allow Westerners to feel too smug about their own safety. Gyn/Ecology was published in 1978, and IMHO is one of the most important books any woman can read. I would be willing to bet, however, that most younger generation feminists are either totally unfamiliar with it or have already been told that Mary Daly is a crazy lady not worth reading. That is how threatening she is. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net marcie begleiter wrote: > >In a message dated Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:11:05 EST > > "Demetria M. Shew" writes: > > You know, it has been really hard for me to believe that this was no longer > being done so I appreciate the reference. Could you please re-send the > reference? > > Another two articles on the subject can be found in the archives of the New > York Times . They appeared on May 13, 1997 and Dec. 28, 1996. I'm not sure > if you can use newspaper stories for the type of work you are doing, but > they cover both the clitorectomy for gender ambiguity and those done by > recent African immigrants. I've got them on disk if you'd like me to e-mail > them to you , I'd be happy to do so. > > Marcie -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ --------------9580167693B8B278B7369DF9 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Gemini Walker Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Gemini Walker n: Walker;Gemini org: Geminiwalker Ink adr: PO Box 16843;;Main Street Station;Worcester;MA;01601-6843;USA email;internet: chuard@earthlink.net title: Executive Director tel;work: (508) 798-4084 tel;home: (508) 798-4084 note: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------9580167693B8B278B7369DF9-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:52:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Organization: Geminiwalker, Inc. Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8D674AE96E947DCEBB786759" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8D674AE96E947DCEBB786759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a little more from Mary Daly's chapter on American Gynecology: Gynocide by Holy Ghosts of Medicine As G.J. Barker-Benfield shows, the more notorious mid-nineteenth-century gynecologists wre bent upon reducing women to their sex organs. Sexual surgery became The Man's means of restraining women. J. Marion Sims, known for his hatred and abhorrence of female organs, remedied his problems (becoming very rich in the process) by ruthlessly cutting up women's bodies. He began his life's work "humbly," performing dangerous sexual surgery on black female slaves housed in a small building in his yard, but rapidly moved up the professional ladder, becoming the 'moving spirit' behind the founding of the Woman's Hospital in New York, which provided him with bodies for his brutal experimental operations. It also provided him with a theatre, in which he performed his operations upon indigent women used as guinea pigs before an audience of men. In his private practice, where he charged enormous fees to the rich, Sims used the 'knowledge' gained through the pain and mutilation inflicted upon the poor patients at the Woman's Hospital. (Mary Smith, an Irish indigent, suffered thirty of his operations before 1856 and 1859. The black slave Anarcha had suffered the same number in his backyard stable a decade before.) The truth, as they say, is stranger than fiction. Just a little more, to broaden the arena of our discussion: "In this chapter I use the term 'gynecology' broadly torefer to all those professions -- including psychiatry and the other psychotherapeutic fields -- which specialize in the 'diseases and hygiene' of women's bodies and minds. I use the term 'gynecologist' to refer to all members of those professions whose beliefs and behavior are motivated by loyalties to their patriarchally identified fields rather than by concern for women." p. 224, note Mary Daly includes DES, hysterectomies, brain surgery in mental institutions also referred to by Phyllis Chessler in "Women and Madness," mastectomies, and of course the more recent craze of putting women on 'medication' for 'mood swings' and 'depression,' including valium and zoloft and other medications that I realize are very helpful for many, but in addition are prescribed too widely for women by men, when the political and sociological empowerment of women might go a heck of a lot farther. I'm pretty sure this book is still in print, reissued in 1990. Phyllis Chessler just came out with a brand new edition of Women and Madness as well, both are available at amazon.com. I can't say enough about how important both of these books are for women. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net marcie begleiter wrote: > >In a message dated Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:11:05 EST > > "Demetria M. Shew" writes: > > You know, it has been really hard for me to believe that this was no longer > being done so I appreciate the reference. Could you please re-send the > reference? > > Another two articles on the subject can be found in the archives of the New > York Times . They appeared on May 13, 1997 and Dec. 28, 1996. I'm not sure > if you can use newspaper stories for the type of work you are doing, but > they cover both the clitorectomy for gender ambiguity and those done by > recent African immigrants. I've got them on disk if you'd like me to e-mail > them to you , I'd be happy to do so. > > Marcie -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ --------------8D674AE96E947DCEBB786759 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Gemini Walker Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Gemini Walker n: Walker;Gemini org: Geminiwalker Ink adr: PO Box 16843;;Main Street Station;Worcester;MA;01601-6843;USA email;internet: chuard@earthlink.net title: Executive Director tel;work: (508) 798-4084 tel;home: (508) 798-4084 note: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------8D674AE96E947DCEBB786759-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:34:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/98 8:44:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, chuard@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << Mary Daly >> Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to re-read my copy! Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gemini Walker Organization: Geminiwalker, Inc. Subject: Doomsday Morning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CD9B4A4445BC8CED06371C6D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CD9B4A4445BC8CED06371C6D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I'm doing some research on conspiracy and, to make a long story short find myself referred to a book by C.L. Moore which is supposedly science fiction, but amazon.com says it is out of print, and even though Powell's has it, there is no description of what it is about. Has anyone on this list read this book that can give me a quick basic summary of what the topic is? Thanks. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ --------------CD9B4A4445BC8CED06371C6D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Gemini Walker Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Gemini Walker n: Walker;Gemini org: Geminiwalker Ink adr: PO Box 16843;;Main Street Station;Worcester;MA;01601-6843;USA email;internet: chuard@earthlink.net title: Executive Director tel;work: (508) 798-4084 tel;home: (508) 798-4084 note: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------CD9B4A4445BC8CED06371C6D-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:14:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Janet Snowhill Subject: Re: Doomsday Morning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the theory that it's always good to start off well, I offer you this as my first post to the list: Strikingly different from Moore's usual interplanetary or medieval locales: realistic action-adventure on a near-present Earth. May be taken as representative of a science fiction theme common in the 1950s: the authoritarian state based on central control of the national electronic communications network, abetted by subliminal manipulation, against which a ragged but dedicated underground rises. Most such stories, however useful they may then have been as cautionary tales, are eminently forgettable. What makes this one "work", in the show business sense of that verb, is the traveling theater company, which is the story's immediate foreground locale. This was a milieu Moore understood very well, and her description of it will speak to anyone who has ever been even minimally stagestruck. For the theme of an apparently necessary regime (it came to power in the chaos following a brief nuclear war) that became corrupt in the exercise of power, compare Knight, "Hell's Pavement" ; for the lively theater subculture, compare Fritz Leiber's fine fantasy "Four Ghosts in "Hamlet"" ("Fantasy & Science Fiction", January 1965), or the chapter titled "Pageant Wagon" in Card, "Folk of the Fringe". -- This is found on NoveList (CARL) and is taken from Anatomy of Wonder 4, a bibliography of science fiction literature. I'm mostly in lurk mode as I just joined the list day before yesterday. I've been away from the genre (more or less) for several years but have recently seen the error of my ways and returned to the fold. I'm enjoying the discussions but can see that I have a lot of reading to catch up on! Janet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:55:14 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: (OT) Female Genital Mutilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gemini Walker wrote: <> I couldn't agree more, took me over a year to read the book, but I read and thought about every line. I needed cooling off periods, so as not to go rampaging off destroying patriarchies wherever I found them. Too much truth in one place is terribly threatening and excruciatingly liberating. Thanks for the reminder; Mary-Ellen Maynard Crystal Mist Glass ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: *Swordspoint* and Related Stories Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 at 07:27:10 -0500, donna simone wrote: >And while I am at it. The only existing "followup/extension" to >Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint is in print. It is included in Nicola >Griffith's collection with Stephen Pagel, Bending The Landscape: >Fantasy. It is called "The Fall of the Kings" and is co-authored >with Delia Sherman. Excellent story, especially for those who could >not get enough of Swordspoint (guilty I am). I see that "The Swordsman whose Name was not Death", "Unicorn Masque" and "Hunt of the Unicorn" have already been mentioned. Another one is called "Playing with Fire" and was anthologized in *The Women's Press Book of New Myth and Magic* as well as Datlow and Windling's 7th annual *Year's Best Fantasy and Horror*. Another that has been published recently, in P.N. Hayden's anthology *Starlight 2*, is titled "The Death of the Duke". The notes about the author in the back mentioned that Kushner and Delia Sherman are working on a full-length novel based upon the story "The Fall of the Kings" and also included the helpful info that "Death of the Duke" takes place 40 years after *Swordspoint* and 20 years before "Fall of the Kings". I can also personally testify that Kushner is/was working on another novel involving some of the characters of *Swordspoint* because I heard her read from it at Wiscon 20 in the spring of 1996. Don't know if she is still working on it or if it has fallen by the wayside... I hope she is because I am ready for another dose, let me tell you! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Tori Amos -- From the Choirgirl Hotel "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:35:00 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: Mary Daly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit geminiwalker wrote: > I'm pretty sure this book is still in print, reissued in 1990. Phyllis > Chessler just came out with a brand new edition of Women and Madness as well, > both are available at amazon.com. I can't say enough about how > important both of these books are for women. Yes! Yes! Mary Daly should be required reading for all! These are not all her books, but I believe they are available._Pure Lust_ is my personal favorite. Susan Daly, Mary. Beyond God the Father: Toward a Philosophy of Women's Liberation. Boston: Beacon Press, 1973. ---. Gyn/Ecology; the Metaethics of Radical Feminism. Boston: Beacon Press, 1978. ---. Pure Lust; Elemental Feminist Philosophy. Boston: Beacon Press, 1984. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:46:47 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Doomsday Morning Comments: cc: chuard@EARTHLINK.NET This is a novel rather than a short story - the cover of my WDL p/back edition, UK 1960 edition of 1957 original, gives the author (inaccurately) as CE Moore* and also gets the protagonist's name wrong on the front cover! It's a long time since I read this so I'll summarise the back cover blurb (which gets the hero's name right but not Moore's initials): Howard Rohan is the greatest actor in the USA, married to Miranda, its most popular actress. The country is run by COMUS (Communications US). Miranda is faithless and Howard slips into dereliction. The COMUS calls on Howard, and his acting ability in regaining control subsequent to a rebellion in California. 'How could an actor in a play learn what COMUS, with its vast resources, could not otherwise learn about the forces behind the rebellion? The answer is what makes _Doomsday Morning_ superior science fiction'. A quick flick through suggests that the hero finds that COMUS has become corrupt and goes over to the Anti forces which were behind the rebellion (surprise) * but the copyright page says Catherine Moore Kuttner Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ---------- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature on behalf of Gemini Walker Sent: 04 December 1998 20:31 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] Doomsday Morning This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CD9B4A4445BC8CED06371C6D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I'm doing some research on conspiracy and, to make a long story short find myself referred to a book by C.L. Moore which is supposedly science fiction, but amazon.com says it is out of print, and even though Powell's has it, there is no description of what it is about. Has anyone on this list read this book that can give me a quick basic summary of what the topic is? Thanks. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net -- Outsiders: for those who walk alone. http://Outsiders.listbot.com/ --------------CD9B4A4445BC8CED06371C6D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Gemini Walker Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Gemini Walker n: Walker;Gemini org: Geminiwalker Ink adr: PO Box 16843;;Main Street Station;Worcester;MA;01601-6843;USA email;internet: chuard@earthlink.net title: Executive Director tel;work: (508) 798-4084 tel;home: (508) 798-4084 note: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------CD9B4A4445BC8CED06371C6D-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: The Cost to Be Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello JB JB said: >I'm still turning the title around and around...the use of "cost" (as opposed to "price")implies a conscious decision to purchase...a knowledge beforehand of what you are going to pay...again, I'm back to the idea that the founders of the mission knew what was going to happen before it happened...wanted it to happen for some reason....> But that assumes that the title has implications only for Wanji and Auydesh. They are not the central character, so I struggle with this interpretation. I would agree that they knew the "demands" they would make of the "mission" would go against the grain of the existing society and therefore would provoke some upheaval, but I do not see evidence in the text that they knew for fact that all living creatures in it would be violently destroyed. Their kits were designed to help them rescue themselves not commit suicide. >"Wisdom" is also interesting...perhaps McHugh just didn't want to go with the obviously biblical "knowledge"....> I recall that use of the word wisdom is also found prominently in the bible. Though it has been years since I read it. JB said: >So If Adam and Eve have already received the "apple of knowledge" the next step for them would be to know how apply the knowledge in order to achieve wisdom...so I'm back to the beginning of thinking the mission was an evolutionary experiment designed to....arrgh! Obviously a beginning, but are we dealing with an inversion of the Adam and Eve story, a re-telling, or what?> I believe the mission was simple in purpose. The "believers" went to the planet to build a community like those they themselves knew in their world. Non-violent and economically self sufficient. I do not find evidence in the story of any more subversive purpose than that. But then I resist interpretations that suggest characters I like may have had evil intent. I do think it was intentional on the part of the author to leave us with a young couple at the end. but I am only speculating that there is an intentional biblical image there. To knowledge vice wisdom, I am leaning towards seeing that the "knowledge" would be the experiential data gathered merely in their having lived in this environment. The wisdom then would be that which results when Janna and Tuuvin experience what interplay of dynamics and interactions and decisions created and then eventually destroyed the village. JB said: >Other interesting things I can't do anything with yet... Sckarline is one of the coldest places out there...weather-wise of course, but people-wise too. Mam hits Janna; Janna may have been sexually abused by her Da (her thoughts on Veronique's attack make me think this);> I saw evidence in the text for a reading that says violence against all women, and violence from more powerful to less powerful was tolerated, not just familial in Janna's household. > no one, including Tuuvin (who she lets kiss her so she can "whisper" to him and walk with him)> I felt fairly certain that Janna very much enjoyed the kissing. She is the one that argues with her mother that her and Tuuvin ought to be able to go further. >Where do their religious/ceremonial customs derive from: Janna is embarrassed that they have no "earth" stories for the anthropologists;> I took this to only be a regret that she could not help the anthropologists and the author letting us know how few/many generations had passed to the point where the origins had been forgotten. >Was it bad timing that Veronique and the Scathalos showed up at the roughly the same time....> Authorial intent? poetic license ? not the same story without her to my thinking? But then I ask myself why? Why veronique and her teacher were there at all? why she had to be rescued so urgently? donna ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:05:10 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Alice Sheldon short autobio Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This issue (December) of The New York Review of Science Fiction has "A Short Autobiography of Alice Sheldon," a letter written in response to a request for biographical info to accompany "Lirias: A Tale of the Quintana Roo" (pub. as Tiptree story in 9/1981 Asimov's). Darrell Schweitzer boiled this down to a paragraph for publication, and provided NYRSF the letter. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:40:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Richard Holmes Subject: Re: Mary Daly Big Yellow Woman (Susan) writes: >Yes! Yes! Mary Daly should be required reading for all! These are not >all her books, but I believe they are available._Pure Lust_ is my >personal favorite. << Delurk >> She's just come out with a new one: "Quintessence...Realizing the Archaic Future : A Radical Elemental Feminist Manifesto" (October, 1998). I'm asking my partner to get it for me for a solstice gift. -Richard @ \@/ Richard A. Holmes (rholmes@ccrma.stanford.edu) @ | @ \|/ "O dark expansive sea of night, @ | Tapestry of stars and solitude, @ , , | , , Crashing waves of chaos, Deep void of becoming, @ ' ' ' ' ' Radiant blackness, all-enfolding, @ Constant well of creation, @ Bestow you dark gifts and silver sparks @ On your parched and thirsty child. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:22:01 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tara Tieso Subject: -- ooo, Mary Daly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit <> This is a stunning, luminous piece of work from a woman with an incredibly brilliant mind. Read Gyn/Ecology first, and then get ready to soar. I was lucky enough to be at a SWIP (Society of Women in Philosophy) conference where she put together an impromptu interlocution. Oh my. Because of the way she has structured this work, as a retrospective from 50 years hence, it could be an interesting future choice for the BDG-- perhaps we all put it on our wish list? warmly, tara Que e la migliore strada per. . . ? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:31:54 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Britt-Inger Johansson Subject: Re: The Cost to Be Wise In-Reply-To: <005a01be20c7$f983d5a0$9bb11b26@donna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>"Wisdom" is also interesting...perhaps McHugh just didn't want to go with >the obviously biblical "knowledge"....> > >I recall that use of the word wisdom is also found prominently in the bible. Though it has been years since I read it. > A quick personal interpretation of the apocryphical Book of Solomon's Wisdom: In jewish tradition and hence in the Bible and also in Christian mystic tradition there is a clear distinction being made between mere knowledge and wisdom. The former may lead to the latter but not necessarily so. One may have knowledge and yet be unwise. Nor is wisdom biblically speaking only a matter of experience + knowledge, it is more than that. Sophia, Holy Wisdom, is in Christianity traditionally identified with the Word, that is Christ. In the Jewish tradition human Wisdom is a gift of God which enables a person to live a righteous life, since it is a reflection of the ultimate good which is an innate quality of God. I was rather thinking along this line. There is an American saying:*being street wise*, might that not lie closer to the development of the story? Britt-Inger ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:59:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: The Sparrow, discussion begins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, it's finally time to talk about The Sparrow. I have to admit I didn't expect to like this book. I mean, knowing up front that darn near everyone dies makes me a bit reluctant to warm up to the characters. Plus I'm not much a fan of organized religion, especially the Catholic church. Neither of these got in the way of me enjoying the book. I liked it a lot. This book did not make me wish I were religious. I just admit defeat right up front at the question of being able to Understand It All. Plus all that abstinence stuff -- aren't there enough things to agonize about it the world without that? How about you -- did the spiritual stuff work for you? The publisher thoughtfully included a bunch of discussion questions for us at the end of the book. Unfortunately, there was only one question I found interesting: - Why did the Jesuits treat Sandoz so harshly before they heard his whole story? Another of their questions was about the Star Trek "prime directive", implying that if the Stella Maris crew had somehow not interfered with the local cultures things might have turned out better. This seems a pointless question, since how could they have known what would have been interference without interfering? In fact I thought this was a strength of the Sparrow -- that it showed the messiness of trying to figure stuff out on your feet with no context whatsoever. Kinda hard to fit that into one-hour TV shows, though; hence the universal translators and sophisticated scanners. Reminds me of how when I played football (US-style) I saw how difficult it was to have any idea what was going on, while it seems so obvious when you're watching it from above. Most of the reviewers praised Russell's characters and I really agree. Some of them, such as Anne and D.W., seemed a little too good to be true. Perhaps I'm just not lucky enough to know anyone quite that witty or I'm just cranky at not getting invited to such charming dinner parties; reading Molly Ivins columns is the closest I come. But I certainly did enjoy the characters and their dialogues, even knowing they were all going to die. Did you believe that a Jesuit-financed group of not-really-experts could mount such an expedition? It seemed plausible enough to me, especially since not everything went perfectly. Finally, some questions most germane to this group: why did this win the Tiptree? Do you agree that it should have won? And was it a feminist book? Only two female characters (human), though they were clearly portrayed in a feminist way. Is that enough to make it feminist? Dive in. Tell us what you really think. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:51:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: BDG: The Sparrow, discussion begins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > This book did not make me wish I were religious. I just admit defeat > right up front at the question of being able to Understand It All. Plus > all that abstinence stuff -- aren't there enough things to agonize about > it the world without that? How about you -- did the spiritual stuff > work for you? Because of the Catholic/Jesuit focus, I would NEVER have picked this book up if it hadn't been on our list. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. I think that the religious 'stuff' worked remarkably well. I liked that we got into Sandoz's head and could see his doubts and how he struggled to find answers for his life. > The publisher thoughtfully included a bunch of discussion questions for us > at the end of the book. Unfortunately, there was only one question I > found > interesting: > > - Why did the Jesuits treat Sandoz so harshly before they heard his whole > story? I dunno - I found myself falling into that trap also - even though we 'met' him early on and could see how nice/bright/hard working etc. he was. I kept reading to see how he 'went wrong' > Another of their questions was about the Star Trek "prime directive", > implying that if the Stella Maris crew had somehow not interfered with the > local cultures things might have turned out better. This seems a > pointless question, since how could they have known what would have been > interference without interfering? In fact I thought this was a strength > of the Sparrow -- that it showed the messiness of trying to figure stuff > out on your feet with no context whatsoever. Kinda hard to fit that > into one-hour TV shows, though; hence the universal translators and > sophisticated scanners. Reminds me of how when I played football > (US-style) I saw how difficult it was to have any idea what was going > on, while it seems so obvious when you're watching it from above. I'm pretty uninformed about Jesuits, but it seems that the prime directive was never part of their mission - rather the opposite, they sent out missionaries to teach different groups about Jesus/Catholocism etc. - they wanted to influence/change the groups. > Finally, some questions most germane to this group: why did this win the > Tiptree? Do you agree that it should have won? And was it a feminist > book? Only two female characters (human), though they were clearly > portrayed in a feminist way. Is that enough to make it feminist? hhhmmmm. I think that it is a feminist book - the women are treated as human. They are full members of the crew, valued for their opinions, we get to know then as well as the men. I'm not sure I see why it won the Tiptree - I don't really see it as gender bending or re-examining male/female roles or relations. While the Runa have the roles reversed (males care for children; females are the hunters) this isn't really discussed all that much or analyzed - Sandoz just comments on it. sheryl > Dive in. Tell us what you really think. > > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:05:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: BDG: The Sparrow, discussion begins In-Reply-To: from "Stahl, Sheryl" at Dec 7, 98 01:51:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer sez: > > - Why did the Jesuits treat Sandoz so harshly before they heard his whole > > story? I think one reason why they wanted to blame Sandoz for the failure was because they wanted it to be someone's fault; not an accident and certainly not the fault of God. This is Sandoz's central conflict. Either what happened to them was mere accident, which leaves out the hand of god, or god permitted it to happen which makes god too cruel for Sandoz to believe in. The book reminded me of something I've read about "normal" accidents; each decision on its own seems logical and correct but added together they create something gone horribily wrong. [If anyone is interested the article I'm thinking of was a few years ago in Harper's magazine about what lead up to the Challenger shuttle accident.] At each stage of the book I thought that I would see the point where the landing party went wrong but I didn't see that point until it was too late for it to be changed. Sandoz did ring true for me. I was taught by Jesuits and all of the ones I knew had his same thirst for knowlege. Another thing which might have caused the other Jesuits, and the rest of the world, to turn against Sandoz is that the story of what happend put out by the second party could have seemed believable. Priests and the Church in this century are no strangers to accusations of sexual misconduct. [spoiler space] The only thing that did not ring true for me was Sofia causing them to stuck on Rakhat when she used the lander to fly back to the villiage. Sofia who was so incredibly precise and she didn't stop to make a basic fuel calculation. I after reading this book I immediately got the sequel. In it, as in the first book, things are not what they seem... I really enjoyed both books. Take care, Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:26:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Candice Bradley and Daniel Byrne Subject: N. Lee Wood's Faraday's Orphans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been reading Wood's second book, Faraday's Orphans -- picked it up at the Chicago airport in a moment of desperation. I'd read Looking for the Mahdi and we'd had some online discussion of that book. Somebody had pointed out that the protagonist in LftM was a Linda Hunt clone and the book was like a recent film with Linda Hunt as a transgendered spy (I saw the film but can't remember its name at the moment), a description that seemed pretty right. Faraday's Orphans was first published in 1997. It's nicely written and fairly intriguing. I am not finished with the book but it does keep my interest enough that I think I probably will finish it -- although I won't stay up all night to do so. What's good about Faraday's Orphans: It's set in a post-holocaust Earth of the 23rd century, two hundred years after a geo-magnetic shift. That's interesting. The ecology and population issues are interesting (managing reproduction in the face of limited gene pools, what to do with animals that escaped from the zoo, how to survive without the ozone and how to replenish it, etc), as are the technical details on how people survived (or did not survive) the shift. There's also some focus on flying machinery -- the protagonist has a helicopter (uniquely rebuilt) for example. What's trite: Tribes of post-holocaust crazy people running around on the "Outside" being distructive (what was that early Charlton Heston film with the folks whose skin and hair turned white? -- a bit like that); and some wild kids right out of Lord of the Flies, replete with body paint, running around in the post-holocaust rubble. Now on to what baffles me. First, there's a fairly obnoxious rape scene early on in the book, in which the protagonist, Berk, basically nails it to his wife, December. I don't enjoy rape scenes and don't find them at all stimulating, and I wondered why Wood felt impelled to include that scene. I don't know much about Wood, but I don't get a sense that this is a feminist work (I say that reluctantly because I'm not at all interested in getting into a discussion of what the phrase "a feminist work" might mean). December is basically an airhead, or else a very incompletely described character. The guys, on the other hand, are well-described. Oh yes, and then there's a woman on the "Outside" whom Berk meets amid the city rubble, and she's a healer (how convenient). Now what is this all about? Does Wood feel more comfortable writing about and identifying with the male protagonists and their sexual exploits? Does she realize that her characters objectify and stereotype women in this book? Or perhaps (and I can't figure this one out) Wood is really a man him/herself masquerading as a woman? Or perhaps Wood is her/himself transgendered? I don't know. I have seen a couple of reviews online. One person wrote that he really liked it but others in his sci-fi group didn't (but he felt he would leave that to them to explain). Other online reviews describe the book but fail to even hint at its sexual politics. There is another review at www.scifi.com which talks about the flaws of the book and its "grimness" ("grim" is a word that comes up in all the reviews) but again, no discussion of the sexual politics. Anyone else? Candice Bradley Appleton WI ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:05:17 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: Sparrow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I enjoyed this book, on the level of a good story (not necessarily SF). I didn't place much credence in the contrivances of the plot, however. I enjoyed the characters, however, could not forget about the author, who seemed everpresent. Occasionally, she had fun with words, turning phrases and making jokes, seemingly, for her own benefit, rather than for the benefit of the story (in which case, she would have left them out). Also, the verbal bantor among some of the characters was almost too good to be true. Anne was, obviously, around long enough to be relatively wiser than everyone else, however, she seemed to know all the answers, be ultimately self-assured and had intellectualized all of her baser instincts beyond their causing her any irritation whatever, so why mention them? The author seemed to identify most with Anne, and I felt that she thought a little too highly of herself. I also had trouble with the ease of the journey. How likely is it that monies would be committed to sending a group of pals on a mission which was ostensibly scientific, staffed by few scientists? What I enjoyed most, however, was the exploration of the nature of God and His involvement in our lives. Does He really care what happens to us now that He's made us? Do our prayers have any effect? Is everything we do for Him merely guesswork on our part? And how can we hold on to faith, if we have any, in the face of having all our assumptions about God turned upside down? Ultimately, we are personally, individually, responsible for what we do and think on this issue. Although the author seems to have very strong beliefs about God, she doesn't really say much for His influence in our lives. She seems to be saying, bottom line, we're on our own. And if we believe in God, it's in spite of, not because of, His work in our lives. The author said she chose outer space because it was the only place left for a 'first contact' story. In that sense, she has pasted the garments of SF onto a mainstream story. So, she didn't really write an SF novel. However, if she wanted to discuss the mystery of personal faith, I think she certainly did. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:18:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: BDG: The Sparrow, discussion begins In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19981205212314.00e68570@mail.actioneer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I have to admit I didn't expect to like this book. I mean, knowing up > front that darn near everyone dies makes me a bit reluctant to warm up to > the characters. This was the big sticking point for me. I -hated- that some super intelligent marketing person gives away that only Sandoz makes it back from Rakhat right on the back cover. I was very reluctant to care about these characters knowing that they were going to bite the dust and probably in a horrible way. Almost against my will I started to really care about the characters. I especially liked Anne. She's exactly the kind of person I would love having as a next door neighbor. One of the things I love about this book is the relationship between Anne and George. How many long term, love relationships do you see in a SF/F novel? Hardly any. The thing that made their relationship very realistic to me was that Anne implies that their marriage hadn't always been a bed of roses and that there might have been a moment of infidelity in the past. I liked it that even though they seemed to have a wonderful marriage there is a sense that they had to work to make it that way. > Another of their questions was about the Star Trek "prime directive", > implying that if the Stella Maris crew had somehow not interfered with the > local cultures things might have turned out better. This seems a pointless > question, since how could they have known what would have been interference > without interfering? It struck me as just a little unrealistic that in all the time that they were preparing the ship and in the months it took to get to Rakhat, they never bothered to develop any kind of protocol for first contact. Not even a vague outline of what they should and shouldn't do. I think it was a mistake that they never even consulted with experts in other fields so that they would have some kind of guideline. My biggest problem with this aspect is that they didn't even consult or better yet bring along a military expert (Yarborough was supposed to have military experience and yet he allowed the entire crew to get into dangerous situations with little information or preparation). And out of all the well educated and intelligent people, not one even considered that growing a garden might be a bad idea. Hello? Isn't agriculture one of the defining moments in human development--- right up there with using fire and inventing the wheel? When I got to this part I -knew- that the gardens would be the pivotal moment that would cause the final tragic events of the book. > In fact I thought this was a strength of the Sparrow -- that it showed > the messiness of trying to figure stuff out on your feet with no > context whatsoever. Kinda hard to fit that into one-hour TV shows, > though; hence the universal translators and sophisticated scanners. > Reminds me of how when I played football (US-style) I saw how > difficult it was to have any idea what was going on, while it seems so > obvious when you're watching it from above. But still, the fact that they spent hardly any time at all observing the planet and monitoring transmissions didn't ring true for me. Practically the minute they get to Rakhat they pile into the lander and joy ride to the planet. > Did you believe that a Jesuit-financed group of not-really-experts could > mount such an expedition? It seemed plausible enough to me, especially > since not everything went perfectly. It seemed realistic but I think the Church would have sent more people and better qualified people. I doubt if Anne and George would have gone simply because of their age. In fact, I would bet that if the Catholic Church was going to send any women at all they would be nuns. > Finally, some questions most germane to this group: why did this win the > Tiptree? Do you agree that it should have won? And was it a feminist > book? Only two female characters (human), though they were clearly > portrayed in a feminist way. Is that enough to make it feminist? I think it would fall into the "feminist" category because the women in the group were well rounded and realistically done. They were not props or there to spur the hero on. I'm not sure why it got the Tiptree, though. The sexual role reversal of the Runa (the males took care of the young, the female were the "bread winners") has been done before. It lead to a couple of cute misunderstandings but honestly it didn't make much difference to the story. In spite of a couple of quibbles, I enjoyed this book and I will recommend it to my friends. > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com)