Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9901D" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:02:13 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: OT mind control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit geminiwalker wrote: 'My sister was recently baptized as Southern Baptist, andher whole life has become her church...Suddenly, someone who had never had a life has made it her mission to shove her gospel down every throat that crosses her path.' I hope what I'm going to say doesn't offend you. Of course, I don't know your sister. However, I've known new Christians (I was once one of them). If it helps at all, sometimes they experience this awakening and, like all of us who find something new to inspire us (be it art, tennis, the internet, what-have-you), they indulge themselves with it. In a way, she is immersing herself in something that makes her feel good (especially if, as you say, she has never had a life). Most Christians run out of this kind of steam, and like other phenomenons, it becomes moderated by the facts of real, everyday, life. The problem with trying to get everyone interested in your 'hobby' is that, if you're a Christian, you're just being way too personal, way too intense, and probably way too judgmental. I left the church because of it. Hopefully, your sister will not always be so offensive in her dealings with people. For the most part, she's probably only preaching to the converted, anyway. The others will tune her out. FWIW, Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:18:20 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Slave-trading in SF/F--Delaney Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain (Responses to two Delany-related posts, with snips) >Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:41:23 -0500 >From: Jane Franklin >Subject: Slave-trading in SF/F--Delaney >There is a sort of slave trading in Samuel Delaney's Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand (I think that's the title...it's like that, but there are all those "Stars Like..." books. > >People who receve Radical Anxiety Termination lose the ability to think complex thoughts, become "RATS" and are more or less sold off to the state or to corporations. Hmm. It seemed a lot like frontal lobotomy to me. There certainly were echoes of slavery in the R.A.T. procedure, but I also got a whiff of Ellison's _Invisible Man_ in the way the 1st protag (Rat Korga?) is a mute observer, moved around by other empowered people like a piece of furniture... particularly in the part where he gets the dataglove from the sexual deviant. >I know this isn't related to the Atlantic Passage, but I'm just curious as to whether anyone else has read it. I thought it was really fabulous; Delany was alleged to be writing a continuation of the story, but I think that's just his little attempt to interrogate our interaction with the text, in that postmodern/cultural studies way he has about him. Umm, what's the Atlantic Passage? It that the same as the Middle Passage? I read somewhere that Delany doubts he'll return to that story; it had something to do with the AIDS epidemic, but I don't remember it very well. >Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:46:21 EST >From: "S.M. Stirling" >Subject: Re: Slave-trading in SF/F--Delaney [snip] >-- frankly, I think his career as a critic and academic has been a >disaster for Delany as a fiction writer. > >Both in that it distracted him, and in that it encouraged a >self-indulgent and inaccessible style. His theoretical concerns ate his >style, making it excessively mannered, arch, and self-conscious. I think you're on to something here, but he was always an arch, allusive, ambiguous writer. He may have developed that way anyway. >All writers are responding to their own inner needs and demons, but >we've also got to communicate. > >The knowledge that if your books don't sell, you don't eat does a >great deal to keep writers from high-diving off the deep end; or, >what's even more disasterous, from writing to please their friends and >the critics rather than their reading public. Ah, I'd love to see what you'd write if you went off the deep end... there's truth to this too. Also, I suspect the academic life eats into his time a great deal; he doesn't seem to be getting much writing done. >Of course, excessive sales success can do the same thing; nobody >dares edit you any more. Look what happened to poor Heinlein. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:53:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon -- spoilers! In-Reply-To: <36A73D63.67F50DC1@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, now I read it all :). Curiously enough, the end was just as uncertain as I decided it was when I read only half of the story. I loved it -- the great descriptions -- of both real and virtual Africa, the unusual theme, the fast-pace action. Suze, it sounds like you have been to a country with a war going, because the atmosphere of the war zone is pretty accurate. Except that in Tajikistan, we did not hide under tables during shootings outside (it's kind of no use). The idea of carrying an alien in one's womb made me feel a little "ouch", and I think Annmarie was not too assertive about trying to find out what was going on, but it did not detract from the quality of the story. I am looking forward to reading _The Annunciate_ :). Let us know when it's out, OK? Marina On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Suzanne Feldman wrote: > Marina wrote: > > > > If you get a chance, check out my short story, HARBINGERS, on Ellen > > > Datlow's EVENT HORIZON online 'zine. > > > > > > I liked it. It's a very neat story -- the atmosphere, the colors, the > > feeling of presence. The end is kind of a tease, though. What > > happened after? Did Annmarie ever got back to the aliens? The story left > > me curious. > > > > Marina > > Thank you! I don't really know what happens to Annmarie, or to any of these > characters. They sort of mutated and transformed themselves into other > people, who became the characters in THE ANNUNCIATE, which is coming out in > November '99. As for the ending being a tease, let me quote Delany here: > "Endings, to be useful, must be inconclusive." So, I guess you could say > there may be more going on in Tanzania than even =I= know about.Suze/Severna > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Sarah C. Harwell" Subject: Re: OT: Tepper Comments: To: NESchaadt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990121003702.006f3f7c@mailhost.waymark.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The B (just board no breakfast) is called Rancho Jacona twenty minutes north of Santa Fe in the little village of Jacona. Lots of peacocks, strange looking sheep and chickens (they breed farm animals that aren't being bred anymore), and beautiful adobe houses. It's quite nice and there are working kitchens in most of the suites. It's a beautiful area, I lived 1/2 a mile away until the past fall. SH On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, NESchaadt wrote: > A few months (or a year) ago, there was a discussion of Sheri Tepper and > her B&B ranch. Does anyone know where it is? > Thanks! > NS > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:29:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon -- spoilers! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the feedback, Marina---and I'm glad you liked it, after going back for the 2nd half. Marina wrote: > Well, now I read it all :). Curiously enough, the end was just as > uncertain as I decided it was when I read only half of the story. > > I loved it -- the great descriptions -- of both real and virtual Africa, > the unusual theme, the fast-pace action. Suze, it sounds like you have > been to a country with a war going, because the atmosphere of the war zone > is pretty accurate. Except that in Tajikistan, we did not hide under > tables during shootings outside (it's kind of no use). I was in northern Israel during the Katyusha attacks from Labanon in 1981. Being under fire truly sticks in your mind . > > > The idea of carrying an alien in one's womb made me feel a little "ouch", > and I think Annmarie was not too assertive about trying to find out what > was going on, but it did not detract from the quality of the story. One woman told me it was the only piece of fiction she'd ever read that made her scream. I was flattered. > > > I am looking forward to reading _The Annunciate_ :). Let us know when it's > out, OK? Novemberof '99--but don't worry---I'll be letting y'all know! Yours, Suze/Severna > > > Marina > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Suzanne Feldman wrote: > > > Marina wrote: > > > > > > If you get a chance, check out my short story, HARBINGERS, on Ellen > > > > Datlow's EVENT HORIZON online 'zine. > > > > > > > > > I liked it. It's a very neat story -- the atmosphere, the colors, the > > > feeling of presence. The end is kind of a tease, though. What > > > happened after? Did Annmarie ever got back to the aliens? The story left > > > me curious. > > > > > > Marina > > > > Thank you! I don't really know what happens to Annmarie, or to any of these > > characters. They sort of mutated and transformed themselves into other > > people, who became the characters in THE ANNUNCIATE, which is coming out in > > November '99. As for the ending being a tease, let me quote Delany here: > > "Endings, to be useful, must be inconclusive." So, I guess you could say > > there may be more going on in Tanzania than even =I= know about.Suze/Severna > > > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:05:56 CST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch-Granberg Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Jan 1999 to 20 Jan 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >If someone has the post in which the Clinton impeachment scandal was >satirized using James T. Kirk and Yeoman Rand, would you please send >it to me? I accidentally deleted it and it was one of the funniest >things I've read in ages. thanks! Ooh ooh! If someone has it, please send me a copy too. Just the premise sounds hysterical! Thanks, Barbara Benesch-Granberg ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:59:54 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amanda Robbins wrote: > 2. I have located a 'romance science fiction' website,( > http://members.aol.com/sfreditor/index.htm) but I find > most of the books it reccomends, although by female authors, are your > basic Harlequin types ( at least the ones I checked out of the > local library were) Hi, Mandy! The romance science fiction site does have books from a range of genres, including horror, fantasy, science fiction, and genre romance. They gave my book Catch the Lightning their Sapphire Award last year, and CTL is hard science fiction. The genre romances are called futuristics (also paranormal, time travel, and fantasy). They do have a different feel from science fiction romances, probably more like what you're thinking of as Harlequins, though I'm not sure if Harlequin itself has a futuristic line. The primary difference between a science fiction romance and a futuristic is that a science fiction romance also has to stand alone as a science fiction novel, or science fiction readers won't read it, whereas romance readers read both. Although I've enjoyed some futuristics I've read, they don't appeal to me as much as historical romances, I think in part because the research and world building that goes into historical romances is on average greater. In a futuristic, when the level of scientific research and other-world building gets that extensive, the book often morphs into science fiction romance (though it's hard to draw a line between the two sub-genres). Ironically, I find many of the regencies and historicals more feminist than the futuristics, at least in the portrayal of the female characters. In a sense, historicals are to the romance genre as hard sf is to the science fiction genre. Many romantic science fiction and fantasy works are more openly feminist. Some writers to try: Ursula Le Guin (eg, "Forgiveness Day"/FOUR WAYS TO FORGIVENESS) Vonda McIntyre (THE MOON AND THE SUN) Kate Elliott (JARAN and THE GOLDEN KEY) Lois McMaster Bujold (SHARDS OF HONOR/BARRAYAR) Sharon Shinn (ARCHANGEL) Carol Ives Gilman ("The Wild Ships of Fairny") Diana Paxon (THE WHITE RAVEN) For sf/fantasy that explores same-sex (though not necessarily same species!) romantic relationships, try: Severna Park (SPEAKING DREAMS) Nicola Griffith ("Yagura") Katie Waitman (THE MERRO TREE). > Could anyone reccomend a book for me, that > deals with both feminists aspects, and technology or interactivity or the > internet? I'm thinking William Gibson's Nueromancer meets the Handmaid's > tale, (what an odd combination!) > > I thank anyone who replies in advance, for helping a first year > student with her report:) Respond to arobbins@calumet.yorku.ca It sounds like my books might fit the bill, at least partially. They are: Primary Inversion Catch the Lightning The Last Hawk The Radiant Seas The Quantum Rose "Aurora in Four Voices" (novella) THE LAST HAWK is the most overtly feminist. Hope that helps! :-) -- Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:00:33 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: PS/Moon and Sun Essay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After I sent the last list of books, I remembered this, which might interest folks here. I recently wrote an essay about Vonda McIntyre's THE MOON AND THE SUN,which won the Nebula Award last year. If you would like to see the review, it is at: http://www.sfsite.com/01b/moon49.htm -- Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 07:54:42 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: FSSF OT Oral histories suffragettes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit May be that some of you are interested in this part of the feminist movement... the oral histories of women who participated (and some were jailed) in the right to vote movement are now available online. Got the notice from a different listserve and pass it on here. < Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Steve! (down, ego! Down!) S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 1/20/99 3:30:52 PM Mountain Standard Time, > my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > > << I liked it. It's a very neat story -- the atmosphere, the colors, the > feeling of presence.> > > -- not only that, but it captures the sense of place extremely well. I lived > in Kenya for most of the 60's and I visited that area of Tanzania several > times, and she gets it down beautifully in a very brief descriptive passage. > > That's hard, with a place you've never been. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:49:20 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Recent reading - January 1999 Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've read a lot of femsf/f this last month - 10 days whole leave and lots of travelling!. Once again I've indicated how much *I enjoyed* them using 1-5 stars. I must admit that if I dislike (1-2 stars) a book by p. 50-100, I just skim through the rest; other people might find it worth persevering. Bradley, Marion Zimmer: _Gravelight_ (***--), _City of Sorcery_ (***--), _Exile's Song_ (**---), _The fall of Atlantis_ (**---), _Ghostlight_ (****- is this sf/f?), _The gratitude of kings_ (***--) Butler, Octavia: _Clay's Ark_ (*----) Carr, Jayge: _Leviathan's deep_ (*----), _Treasure in the heart of the maze_(*----), _Rabeliasian Reprise_ (**---), _Navigator's Sindrome_ (*----) Cherryh, CJ: _The fortress in time's eye_ (*****), _The fortress of the eagles_ (****-), _The fortress of the owls_ (***--) (I judge Cherryh against a MUCH higher standard than other authors). Egan, Doris: _Guilt-edged Ivory_ (****-). Fander, Jane: _Ring of lightning_ (****-), _Ring of intrigue_ (***--) Hopkinson, Nalo: _Brown girl in the ring_ (**---). Griffith, Nicola: _Slow river_ (***** is this sf or a really excellent mystery?) Radford, Irene: _The Glassdragon_ (*****), _The last battlemage_ (****-) Sargent, Pamela: _The shore of women_ (****-) Stirling, S M: _Island in the sea of time_ (*****) Tepper, Sheri S: _Still life_ (**---) Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) __________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:59:14 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Harbingers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a gumby! From the other messages I realized that I had only read the first page of the story! I went back and read the rest and it was great! I got very involved from the point of the meeting in Aberdeen. I was impressed with the clarity of the action, given the potentially confusing both-places-at-once situations. I was surprised at the way things went - the action was not at all predictable, and I was completely gripped over the bathtub scene - that "I can't believe this is happening but it's really amazing" feeling. All in all, there was so much packed in in such a short piece, but it remained clear and compelling and very skillfully done. Thanks Suze! Susan Hericks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:19:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Harbingers In-Reply-To: <36AA2A12.747D@people-link.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Big Yellow Woman wrote: > What a gumby! From the other messages I realized that I had only read > the first page of the story! The same thing happened to me . Maybe they should put a "note for dummies" (like myself) on the page: "when you reach the bottom of the page, click on the arrow". It might sound funny, but it just did not cross my mind to do so the first time I was there :). I guess I got too used to the fact that even milk cartons have directions to "open from the other side". Seriously, Harbingers is the best sf story I read for a while. I agree with Susan that the plot was totally unpredictable, which is very refreshing considering the fact that there are so many conventions in science fiction that it is not easy (at least in my opinion) to come up with something completely original. Now, I am going to sound ignorant, but -- what else have you published, Suze? I'd like to read it. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:02:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <36A9F467.3723B50@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII S.M. Stirling wrote: > > -- not only that, but it captures the sense of place extremely well. > I lived > in Kenya for most of the 60's and I visited that area of > Tanzania several > times, and she gets it down beautifully in a very > brief descriptive passage. > > That's hard, with a place you've never > been. I think the above cited comment captures one's sense of his superiority extremely well, in one brief condescending statement. Which is hard, presenting it in a form of a "compliment". :P Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:10:15 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Recent reading - January 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for the five stars, Mike... 8-). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:34:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: Harbingers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the compliments! Any feedback is MUCH appreciated. And in answer to Marina's question, here's my brief list of publications... 2 novels... Speaking Dreams Hand Of Prophecy (on the Nebula preliminary list) (both have utterly uncensored lesbian protagonists, both published by Avon books, both shamelessly Feminist) Some short stories... Tiger.Tiger (on the Neb prelim ballot as well---published in Realms of Fantasy last spring) Harbingers (at the Event Horizon site) Judith's Golem, forthcoming this year in the Datlow antho, Black Heart, Ivory Bones. Th-th-that's all, folks!Suze/Severna > > > Seriously, Harbingers is the best sf story I read for a while. I agree > with Susan that the plot was totally unpredictable, which is very > refreshing considering the fact that there are so many conventions in > science fiction that it is not easy (at least in my opinion) to come up > with something completely original. > > Now, I am going to sound ignorant, but -- what else have you published, > Suze? I'd like to read it. > > Marina > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:57:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bertina Miller Subject: Re: PS/Moon and Sun Essay Comments: To: Catherine Asaro In-Reply-To: <36A9735C.6B9B@sff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey I just bought that book. Hope its good! Bertina bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Catherine Asaro wrote: > After I sent the last list of books, I remembered this, which might > interest folks here. I recently wrote an essay about Vonda McIntyre's > THE MOON AND THE SUN,which won the Nebula Award last year. If you would > like to see the review, it is at: > > http://www.sfsite.com/01b/moon49.htm > > -- > Best regards > Catherine Asaro > http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:42:54 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Harbingers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/23/99 1:25:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: >Now, I am going to sound ignorant, but -- what else have you published, Suze? I'd like to read it. -- in the way of novels, "Speaking Dreams" and the related "Hand of Prophecy". I did my level best to get "Hand of Prophecy" on the Nebula ballot, and it's on the prelims. If I don't win, I hope it does. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:44:47 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/23/99 2:08:15 PM Mountain Standard Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << I think the above cited comment captures one's sense of his superiority extremely well, in one brief condescending statement. Which is hard, presenting it in a form of a "compliment". >> -- huh? I said it was a magnificent piece of descriptive writing, and that I could attest to its accuracy because I happened to have visited the place in question. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:57:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: Harbingers In-Reply-To: <36AA6AAA.AFD62A2C@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:34 PM 01/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks for the compliments! Any feedback is MUCH appreciated. And in answer >to Marina's question, here's my brief list of publications... > >2 novels... >Speaking Dreams >Hand Of Prophecy (on the Nebula preliminary list) Both are fine novels and highly recommended -- of course it's not Suze's place to say it like that, so I thought I'd chime in with my own opinion. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:10:09 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:44:47 EST >From: "S.M. Stirling" >Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon > >In a message dated 1/23/99 2:08:15 PM Mountain Standard Time, >my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > ><< I think the above cited comment captures one's sense of his >superiority extremely well, in one brief condescending statement. >Which is hard,presenting it in a form of a "compliment". >> > >-- huh? > >I said it was a magnificent piece of descriptive writing, and that I >could attest to its accuracy because I happened to have visited the >place in question. Yeah, I thought it was the least controversial thing Steve's said in a while on this list. Oh well. Danny P.S. What do people think about the little essays they're publishing on EH, mainly by Malzberg and Shepard? Do you think we could get Gwyneth Jones in there somehow? (I picked Jones because she's one of SF's top female ranters.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:48:00 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Colgan, Ann" Subject: Help, I can't remember About a year ago, I read a great book. It was near-future feminist science fiction. The thing is, I can't remember the name of the author or the title of the book. It's been bugging me because I remember the story and it's great: A late middle-age lawyer agrees to take a case defending a poor, ignorant girl named Lolly from charges that the girl killed her newborn. The lawyer defends the girl with an idea that she calls the Hail Mary theory or the Divine Mary defense, or something like that. And that is also similar to the title that I can't remember. (this is really bugging me). The story is told through the eyes of the lawyer and her friends from college days. The lawyer's opponent in more way than one is this misogynist wife-beater named Jake. It seems straightforward enough, but apparently there is a vast conspiracy to render women into comatose baby-producers. In the end, SHE and the lawyer save the humans. If you know this book, please tell me the title. Thank you. Ann Colgan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:32:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: Help, I can't remember MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Gibbon's Decline and Fall" by Sheri Tepper S P O I L E R S On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:48:00 PST "Colgan, Ann" writes: >About a year ago, I read a great book. It was near-future feminist >science fiction. The thing is, I can't remember the name of the author >or the title of the book. It's been bugging me because I remember the >story and it's great: > A late middle-age lawyer agrees to take a case defending a poor, >ignorant girl named Lolly from charges that the girl killed her >newborn. > The lawyer defends the girl with an idea that she calls the Hail >Mary theory or the Divine Mary defense, or something like that. And that >is also similar to the title that I can't remember. (this is really >bugging me). The story is told through the eyes of the lawyer and her >friends from college days. The lawyer's opponent in more way than one is >this misogynist wife-beater named Jake. It seems straightforward enough, >but apparently there is a vast conspiracy to render women into comatose >baby-producers. In the end, SHE and the lawyer save the humans. > If you know this book, please tell me the title. >Thank you. Ann Colgan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:10:16 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: Tepper's B&B Comments: cc: NESchaadt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" IIRC, it is called Rancho Jacona and is located in Pojaque, NM. Between Albuquerque and Santa Fe? BTW, SINGER FROM THE SEA will be out in April, and there is supposed to be a 5 city West Coast signing tour!! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:12:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: mind control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Almost OT, unless one counts the psychic elements as SF, but I highly recommend Martha Lawrence's new mystery, AQUARIUS DESCENDING, for a description of what kind of stuff goes on at some "retreats." Based on Martha's experiences. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:14:36 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, S.M. Stirling wrote: > > << I think the above cited comment captures one's sense of his superiority > extremely well, in one brief condescending statement. Which is hard, > presenting it in a form of a "compliment". >> > > -- huh? > > I said it was a magnificent piece of descriptive writing, and that I could > attest to its accuracy because I happened to have visited the place in > question. Clueless, aren't we? let's put it this way -- first, telling someone "not too bad for someone who -- whatever" is condescending by definition. Even if one lives in the 'place in question' and can see it through the window this very moment, it's no excuse to "compliment" another person as if he's talking to a five-year-old who's made a paper valentine for her mama. The funniest part is that I believe that it was actually meant as a compliment. The same as one would say -- "that's a pretty good description of marriage, for a gay man", or "nice image of British aristocracy, for a colored person". In other words -- "you did pretty good, for someone who does not know what she's talking about". Oh, that sweet old idea that rudeness is what makes a "real man"! Alas, I am afraid that trying to get respect that way on _this_ particular list might be -- well -- a bit out of place. And -- the dozens of people who so far stick to complaining about this behavior to each other might eventually get fed up. Just making sure that it comes as no surpirse to you when they do :). Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:10:36 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: immortality again Did anyone see our old topic on X-Files last night? Scully was the proponent of immortality to allow time to learn and do. The guest star was on my side, a sad old immortal who regretted having to live forever exposed to humanity and its unchanging human nature. Do you think someone from the show has been reading us? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:24:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Brown Girl & Native land claims Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for the background info on the current native land claim situation, Rudy. I can see you this would make you and anyone more sensitive to suggesting that Brown Girl might portray a possible outcome of this kind of worst-case scenario. Let us hope that education and sanity prevail. However, the way I interpreted it in the book was as a series of things that happened that probably seemed the right thing to do at the time but overall just led down a terrible path. I can easily imagine the rest of the world supporting a boycott of a city such as Toronto, on behalf of a campaign to have native land claims respected. And this was one reasonable outcome of that scenario. Unfortunate, and ultimately not having anything to do with the original reason for the boycott, but certainly not disparaging of the native claims. So, I didn't read any disrespect in the story. But then I didn't know what a charged situation it really was. It's hard to know what the right thing to do is in this situation. Clearly the original treaties should be honored. Clearly anyone can accept the idea of a particular piece of land as sacred, even if you don't have such beliefs yourself. But what to do about the people who live there now? OK, that's all off topic I know. Unless someone can suggest another SF book covering this area??? If there isn't one there's certainly fertile ground for one. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:19:27 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/25/99 1:21:22 PM Mountain Standard Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: >Clueless, aren't we? let's put it this way -- first, telling someone "not too bad for someone who -- whatever" is condescending by definition.> -- excuuuuuse me, but are you trying to say that it _isn't_ harder to describe something when you've never seen it personally? Because I (like Severna) _am_ a professional writer and I _know_ that it is. At least, it is for me and everyone else I've ever talked to about it. Incidentally, I also happen to be a personal friend of hers, and to have recommended her novel for a Nebula. You've put your foot in your mouth good and proper, and seem bent on shoving it in to the knee and gnawing it off. A suitable apology will be graciously accepted. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:44:58 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <2273940@flc.flink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey, Steve! If you paid me such a condescending compliment, I'd print it and make everybody I know read it out loud. Of course, I once horrified an entire critiquing group by saying to the author "Not bad for a first draft. . ." Then I had to say, "It was a first draft, wasn't it. . .? I mean. . ." And then there was the time I told her, "There are some stories that are just so much fun to write, and you laugh and you roll on the desk while you are writing it. . . but. . . I wouldn't necessarily. . . let it out of the desk drawer again. . ." And then there was the time I wrote a satire about her high-strung husband, and her only remark was "Actually his favorite soup is tomato, not chicken noodle. . ." What I mean to say is, some people know when you mean well, and others will read an offense in the color of your necktie. Delete accordingly. Rebecca At 02:21 PM 1/25/99 CST, Marina wrote: >On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, S.M. Stirling wrote: >> >> << I think the above cited comment captures one's sense of his superiority >> extremely well, in one brief condescending statement. Which is hard, >> presenting it in a form of a "compliment". >> >> >> -- huh? >> >> I said it was a magnificent piece of descriptive writing, and that I could >> attest to its accuracy because I happened to have visited the place in >> question. > >Clueless, aren't we? let's put it this way -- first, telling someone "not >too bad for someone who -- whatever" is condescending by definition. Even >if one lives in the 'place in question' and can see it through the window >this very moment, it's no excuse to "compliment" another person as if >he's talking to a five-year-old who's made a paper valentine for her mama. > >The funniest part is that I believe that it was actually meant as a >compliment. The same as one would say -- "that's a pretty good >description of marriage, for a gay man", or "nice image of British >aristocracy, for a colored person". > >In other words -- "you did pretty good, for someone who does not know what >she's talking about". > >Oh, that sweet old idea that rudeness is what makes a "real man"! >Alas, I am afraid that trying to get respect that way on _this_ >particular list might be -- well -- a bit out of place. And -- the dozens >of people who so far stick to complaining about this behavior to each >other might eventually get fed up. Just making sure that it comes as no >surpirse to you when they do :). > >Marina > > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:21:05 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Slave-trading in SF/F--Delaney Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 22 Jan 99, at 7:18, Daniel Krashin wrote: > Umm, what's the Atlantic Passage? It that the same as the Middle > Passage? It's essentially the same term - although I've seen it used for the entire Atlantic legs of the trade (from Europe to Africa to pick up slaves then onto the Caribbean for sale). The thread (as some might recall) started with Anthea's query about a book of unknown title and unknown author. In fact the book was Stilman, Walter 1952. _Voyage to Orion's Belt_. London : SJC Books. 192p (one of those cheap pulp? paperbacks common in those days). Don't bother to look for it - it's absolute rubbish although, interestingly, the captain of one of the 5 spaceships in the "Terrine" (sic) fleet is a woman - something exceedingly rare for the time. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) _______________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:56:13 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: OT: Tepper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit NS wrote: <> The friend of a friend finally came through, here is their website - www.sfol.com/sfol/travlodg/jacona/index.html. I have the phone # and think it may be for business, but am a little uncomfortable putting it out publicly until I know. If you can't get it on the site, email back and I'll check. Mary-Ellen Crystal Mist Glass ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:41:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok...can this stop, please? Steve is my friend. We critique each other's work. Since his comment was directed at my work, and I was very pleased to hear it, I personally think it's inappropriate to accuse him of something =I= don't think he meant. Believe me, if I think Steve is patronizing to me, he knows it So please. Let's discuss Feminist SF. OK? Suze/Severna S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 1/25/99 1:21:22 PM Mountain Standard Time, > my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > > >Clueless, aren't we? let's put it this way -- first, telling someone "not > too bad for someone who -- whatever" is condescending by definition.> > > -- excuuuuuse me, but are you trying to say that it _isn't_ harder to describe > something when you've never seen it personally? > > Because I (like Severna) _am_ a professional writer and I _know_ that it is. > At least, it is for me and everyone else I've ever talked to about it. > > Incidentally, I also happen to be a personal friend of hers, and to have > recommended her novel for a Nebula. > > You've put your foot in your mouth good and proper, and seem bent on shoving > it in to the knee and gnawing it off. > > A suitable apology will be graciously accepted. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:50:05 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Steve; Marina is not the only one who has been bothered by your condescending remarks and hostile attitudes as expressed regularly on this list. I have been also. I have not written about it before because I am a passionate reader - not a writer. In fact, I'd rather be having a root canal right now. Regardless, if you actually read the comments you quoted, you might see that Marina was questioning YOUR tone and intent, not the validity of the "compliment" to Suze/Severna. I think we're all agreed that Suze deserves the compliment, the question is whether or not you were actually giving one? Given the uncivil tone of this discussion, I would ask that we all take it off the list. Let me be the first to say that I will take my further comments directly to you. Mary-Ellen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:53:27 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is none of my business! However... Because the author was complimented, the communication was successful (i.e., she got the point). I realize what Marina's saying about back-handed compliments, and I agree about them, however, that isn't what this was. If I were writing about a place I'd never been, I would want someone who had been there to say to me, you got it right. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:47:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: OT: Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting interview with Tepper in the latest Science Fiction Chronicle. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:31:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: BDG: Brown Girl & Native land claims MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Krauel wrote: > > It's hard to know what the right thing to do is in this situation. Clearly > the original treaties should be honored. Clearly anyone can accept the > idea of a particular piece of land as sacred, even if you don't have such > beliefs yourself. But what to do about the people who live there now? OK, > that's all off topic I know. Unless someone can suggest another SF book > covering this area??? If there isn't one there's certainly fertile ground > for one. > Ursula LeGuin's _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ deals with a planet that has been colonized and the indigenous population enslaved (so does her _The Word for World is Forest_, come to think of it). The slaves successfully rebel and, if I remember correctly, the colonizers are kicked off the planet. Sort of a similar issue? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:37:59 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: An OT philosophical recommendation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I do not want to talk about the content of this on the list, but I happened across it and thought some people might be interested. There is this fellow Jurgen Habermass and this philosophy, critical theory, which seems rather like postmodernism purged of its goofy side. You can find out more through this site: http://www.yahoo.ca/Arts/Humanities/Critical_Theory. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: OT: Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frances Green wrote: > > Interesting interview with Tepper in the latest Science Fiction > Chronicle. Is this widely available? Where can I find it? Thanks, susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:11:22 MET Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: An OT philosophical recommendation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 26 Jan 99, at 12:37, Jane Franklin wrote: > There is this fellow Jurgen Habermass and this philosophy, critical > theory, which seems rather like postmodernism purged of its goofy side. > You can find out more through this site: Can I recommend White, S K (ed). 1995. _The Cambridge Companion to Habermas_. Cambridge (England) : Cambridge University Press. 366p? (the Cambridge _Companions to..._ series can be recommended for *any* of the philosophers it covers but this particular volume is especially "palatable"). I'd love to hear what some of the people on this list think of his "communicative rationality" in view of some of the arguments here last year about the voices of women and gender roles in sf/f! AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: OT: Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I get it by subscription, but I think you'll find it on sale any place that stocks about-SF magazines (Locus, etc). I think they have just started a web site, for promotional rather than content purposes: I'll try to remember to bring my copy in tomorrow and fill in the blanks! On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:50 -0600 Big Yellow Woman writes: >Frances Green wrote: >> >> Interesting interview with Tepper in the latest Science Fiction >> Chronicle. > > >Is this widely available? Where can I find it? Thanks, susan > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:47:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: OT: Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.sfsite.com/ This has links to various SF magazines, including SF Chronicle. On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:46:34 -0500 Frances Green writes: >I get it by subscription, but I think you'll find it on sale any place >that stocks about-SF magazines (Locus, etc). I think they have just >started a web site, for promotional rather than content purposes: I'll >try to remember to bring my copy in tomorrow and fill in the blanks! > >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:50 -0600 Big Yellow Woman > writes: >>Frances Green wrote: >>> >>> Interesting interview with Tepper in the latest Science Fiction >>> Chronicle. >> >> >>Is this widely available? Where can I find it? Thanks, susan >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:34:01 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, S.M. Stirling wrote: > In a message dated 1/25/99 1:21:22 PM Mountain Standard Time, > my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > > >Clueless, aren't we? let's put it this way -- first, telling someone "not > too bad for someone who -- whatever" is condescending by definition.> > > -- excuuuuuse me, but are you trying to say that it _isn't_ harder to describe > something when you've never seen it personally? You are excuuuuused. By the way, it might be also difficult to graduate from college with a Down syndrome. I can easily picture you handing out the diploma, saying "You did pretty good, for a retard!" > > Because I (like Severna) _am_ a professional writer and I _know_ that it is. > At least, it is for me and everyone else I've ever talked to about it. I can easily believe that -- not many people can stand talking to you for too long, let alone trying to tell you something you don't like. They usually talk to each other about you instead. > Incidentally, I also happen to be a personal friend of hers, and to have > recommended her novel for a Nebula. Hey, I'm glad for Suze -- she is a great writer, and apparently, a very patient and forgiving person. However, if this is how you treat your friends, I'm very glad there is no way I can be one of them, even by accident. > You've put your foot in your mouth good and proper, and seem bent on shoving > it in to the knee and gnawing it off. Well, dear Mr. S.M. I can tell you where I would gladly put my foot -- and I think it's more likely to be in the area of your lower spine. Apparently, your being a writer made you assume some God-given right to insult people, but believe me -- whatever is the amount of books you sold, it does not make your routinely obnoxious comments any more acceptable. Just because everyone you know is kissing up to you (probably because they do not want to deal with your rudeness every time) does not mean that you are somehow exempt from the rules of social behavior when dealing with strangers. Trust me -- there are plenty of people who think that a rich and famous jerk is still a jerk. If you got out in the world more often, instead living in the rosy world of your admirers, you would have figured it out by now. You cannot believe how many people on this list complained to me about your absence of manners. To be honest, I'm kind of tired of hearing it again and again, so I think it's about time someone tells you that in your face -- and I don't mind doing that. Besides, the reality exceeds all the descriptions that I've heard. You are really something, S.M. Stirling -- I think if we ever create that Hall of Infamy for the stars of sexism, you'll beat the editor of Penthouse. > > A suitable apology will be graciously accepted. > LOL!!! You are welcome to put your own foot in your mouth -- since you consider that phrase polite and acceptable (and maybe even gracious), let it be your apology. have a nice day. Marina ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:59:58 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon In-Reply-To: <36ADA9E0.CB8B81B5@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Suze, I want to apologize to you for drawing you into this stuff. I still think that S.M. is an exceptionally rude person, but I definitely did not mean to make _you_ feel uncomfortable. Sorry if I did. I think you did a great job writing that story. And I really don't think it matters whether you had been to Tanzania or not. A great work is a great work. Plus, I've seen plenty of completely inaccurate descriptions of places made by people who lived there for years. The ones that would make you wonder if the author ever left the house while he was there. So I really don't think having been somewhere and describing it well are even related in most cases. IMHO, it depends more on general knowledge, imagination, and artistic talent. Just my opinion. Marina On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Suzanne Feldman wrote: > Ok...can this stop, please? Steve is my friend. We critique each other's work. > Since his comment was directed at my work, and I was very pleased to hear it, I > personally think it's inappropriate to accuse him of something =I= don't think he > meant. Believe me, if I think Steve is patronizing to me, he knows it > So please. Let's discuss Feminist SF. OK? > > Suze/Severna > > S.M. Stirling wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/25/99 1:21:22 PM Mountain Standard Time, > > my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: > > > > >Clueless, aren't we? let's put it this way -- first, telling someone "not > > too bad for someone who -- whatever" is condescending by definition.> > > > > -- excuuuuuse me, but are you trying to say that it _isn't_ harder to describe > > something when you've never seen it personally? > > > > Because I (like Severna) _am_ a professional writer and I _know_ that it is. > > At least, it is for me and everyone else I've ever talked to about it. > > > > Incidentally, I also happen to be a personal friend of hers, and to have > > recommended her novel for a Nebula. > > > > You've put your foot in your mouth good and proper, and seem bent on shoving > > it in to the knee and gnawing it off. > > > > A suitable apology will be graciously accepted. > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:06:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/27/99 1:40:28 PM Mountain Standard Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: >By the way, it might be also difficult to graduate from college with a Down syndrome. I can easily picture you handing out the diploma, saying "You did pretty good, for a retard!" >> -- sigh. I said it was harder to describe something that you haven't seen; for me, and for Severna, and for everyone else. Hmmm. Now, how, exactly, was this condescending? Let's define our terms here. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:16:57 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit You know, if someone who lived in Argentina were to compliment me on my description of the Andes Mountains, I wouldn't consider it condescending at all. Would anyone else? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Marina--- > I want to apologize to you for drawing you into this stuff. I still think > that S.M. is an exceptionally rude person, but I definitely did not mean > to make _you_ feel uncomfortable. Sorry if I did. You don't need to apologize to me, but I will tell you in all frankness that seeing this thread come up over and over makes me =extremely= uncomfortable. Whatever your opinions of Steve are, please don't use the listserve as a boxing ring. OK? Do it in private email, because it makes me feel like =I= have to apologize to everyone for being in the middle of it when it's so public. Yours, Suze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:45:13 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sorry -- I'll ignore any further posts on the subject on the listserve. Yours, Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:12:59 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: immortality again In-Reply-To: <000101be48d1$11d837a0$96422599@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Joyce Jones wrote: > Did anyone see our old topic on X-Files last night? Scully was the > proponent of immortality to allow time to learn and do. The guest star was > on my side, a sad old immortal who regretted having to live forever exposed > to humanity and its unchanging human nature. Do you think someone from the > show has been reading us? I did see it. In fact, I agree with Scully. I think that a person's enjoyment of life depends on their personality rather than the amount of years. Some people get bored by the age of thirty, simply because they have no curiousity or desire to learn to keep themselves entertained, and because they assume that they had "seen it all". So, they start actively destroying themselves, kind of like Kristina Onassis. IMHO, it is impossible to "see it all", simply because the world will change a lot faster than you can do it. It's like the Golden Gate bridge -- they start painting it from one side, and when they reach the other end, it's time to paint the place they have started all over again. In other words, even if you spend, say, ten years exploring each country in the world, by the time you finished them all, the first one would have changed so much you can as well start over. Besides, humanity is not the whole world. If people start getting on your nerves too much, you can always spend a couple hundred years in the mountains, woods, a tropical island, or even a desert. Especially if you don't have to worry about snake bites or getting eaten by a tiger. Hell, just the rainforest alone would keep me entertained for at least a hundred years. All it takes, in my opinion, is a genuine interest in life and the desire to enjoy it, which does not depend on age. Besides, the more you know, the more you want to learn -- at least it's that way for me. Concerning the guy from the X-files, I think if one spends eternity taking pictures of people dying, that would make even a mortal person want to cut their presence in this world short. Even one exposure to violent death usually shakes people up pretty badly. To me, this was the main reason wny he wanted to die -- it must be pretty frustrating to know in advance of everyone's death and being unable to do anything about it. In fact, i am always suprised when people say that they'd hate to live forever. it's the same as when people with good lives -- loving families, great jobs, nice friends, safe future -- say that they wouldn't want to live through everything they had again. Even when they consider themselves happy and content with what they have. It is amazing, at least to me. My life has been mostly a nightmare for pretty much as long as I can remember -- and i would live it all over again if i had a chance. Even bad experience is a learning experience, and therefore is good. Especially when you had lived it before and already know that many of the bad things would eventually pass. On the other side, i've noticed that people who don't want to live forever are often the people with nice, ordinary lives without major turmoiles. Could it be that _happiness_ is what makes people bored and craving for death? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:18:57 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/27/99 9:42:22 PM, Suze wrote: <> Second. Besides, Suze made the request to cease and desist very nicely once before. A little courtesy would be welcome. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:36:36 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: immortality again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/27/99 10:22:50 PM, Marina wrote: <> Oh, say it isn't so! I've had an adventuresome life and would gladly start over. I consider boredom an unnatural state. smiling, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: OK (was Severna Park on Event Horizon) In-Reply-To: <36AF889F.7C4F5E5E@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OK. I understand your feelings and it's not a problem. If anyone wants to fight about this any more -- please contact me directly. Thank you for your time. Marina On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Suzanne Feldman wrote: > You don't need to apologize to me, but I will tell you in all frankness > that seeing this thread come up over and over makes me =extremely= > uncomfortable. Whatever your opinions of Steve are, please don't use the > listserve as a boxing ring. OK? Do it in private email, because it makes > me feel like =I= have to apologize to everyone for being in the middle > of it when it's so public. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:50:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: Severna Park on Event Horizon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:34 PM 1/27/99 -0600, Marina wrote: >On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, S.M. Stirling wrote: > >> In a message dated 1/25/99 1:21:22 PM Mountain Standard Time, >> my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: >> >> >Clueless, aren't we? let's put it this way -- first, telling someone "not >> too bad for someone who -- whatever" is condescending by definition.> >> >> -- excuuuuuse me, but are you trying to say that it _isn't_ harder to >> describe something when you've never seen it personally? > >You are excuuuuused. > >By the way, it might be also difficult to graduate from college with a >Down syndrome. I can easily picture you handing out the diploma, saying >"You did pretty good, for a retard!" > >> >> Because I (like Severna) _am_ a professional writer and I _know_ that it >> is. At least, it is for me and everyone else I've ever talked to about it. > >I can easily believe that -- not many people can stand talking to you for >too long, let alone trying to tell you something you don't like. They >usually talk to each other about you instead. > >> Incidentally, I also happen to be a personal friend of hers, and to have >> recommended her novel for a Nebula. > >Hey, I'm glad for Suze -- she is a great writer, and apparently, a very >patient and forgiving person. However, if this is how you treat your >friends, I'm very glad there is no way I can be one of them, even by >accident. > >> You've put your foot in your mouth good and proper, and seem bent on >> shoving it in to the knee and gnawing it off. > >Well, dear Mr. S.M. I can tell you where I would gladly put my foot -- and >I think it's more likely to be in the area of your lower spine. > >Apparently, your being a writer made you assume some God-given right to >insult people, but believe me -- whatever is the amount of books you >sold, it does not make your routinely obnoxious comments any more >acceptable. Just because everyone you know is kissing up to you (probably >because they do not want to deal with your rudeness every time) does not >mean that you are somehow exempt from the rules of social behavior when >dealing with strangers. > >Trust me -- there are plenty of people who think that a rich and famous >jerk is still a jerk. If you got out in the world more often, >instead living in the rosy world of your admirers, you would have figured >it out by now. > >You cannot believe how many people on this list complained to me about >your absence of manners. To be honest, I'm kind of tired of >hearing it again and again, so I think it's about time someone >tells you that in your face -- and I don't mind doing that. Besides, the >reality exceeds all the descriptions that I've heard. You are really >something, S.M. Stirling -- I think if we ever create that Hall of Infamy >for the stars of sexism, you'll beat the editor of Penthouse. > >> >> A suitable apology will be graciously accepted. >> > >LOL!!! You are welcome to put your own foot in your mouth -- since you >consider that phrase polite and acceptable (and maybe even gracious), let >it be your apology. > >have a nice day. > >Marina > I have to say, I'm offended by this continued argument. Not only is it OT, but the tone of this response is immature and far more insulting and rude than Stirling's comments, directed at someone else, were. Please take your (bewildering) tirade directly to the source, Marina. Off-list. Thank you. Sophia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:36:57 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: immortality again In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Phoebe Wray wrote: > Could it be that _happiness_ is what makes people bored and > craving for death? > >> > > Oh, say it isn't so! I've had an adventuresome life and would gladly start > over. I consider boredom an unnatural state. I think you would like living forever, too. Those who can enjoy twenty or thirty years, can enjoy a thousand. Good hunger for life never gets satisfied. At least that's what i believe. ;) Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:43:39 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: immortality again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/27/99 11:43:02 PM Mountain Standard Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << I think you would like living forever, too. Those who can enjoy twenty or thirty years, can enjoy a thousand. Good hunger for life never gets satisfied. At least that's what i believe. >> -- me too, oddly enough... 8-). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:05:06 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: Once again -- on rudeness and such In-Reply-To: <199901272150.NAA09347@mail.sdsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Sophia Hegner wrote: > I have to say, I'm offended by this continued argument. Not only is it OT, > but the tone of this response is immature and far more insulting and rude > than Stirling's comments, directed at someone else, were. Please take your > (bewildering) tirade directly to the source, Marina. Off-list. Thank you. Sophia and everyone else who feels like lecturing me on netiquette -- please make a good exapmle and send _that_ to me off-list. If you going to attack me in front of everyone -- that's where i am going to respond, which is only logical, in my opinion. I think that if you really want people to take some stuff offline, you tell them about it offline. Just a thought. Marina P.S. Of course, you are welcome to jump on me again, but mind you -- _I_ did not even use the word 'rude' in this message. So if anyone wants to keep fighting -- we can do it, but don't blame it on me. http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:39:35 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catweasel Subject: Re: immortality again In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was 27/01/99 23:36:36 GMT when, as I was going about my lawful occasions, I observed Phoebe Wray , hereinafter referred to as the accused, writing on a Bristol monitor: > In a message dated 1/27/99 10:22:50 PM, Marina wrote: > > < forever are often the people with nice, ordinary lives without major > turmoiles. Could it be that _happiness_ is what makes people bored and > craving for death? > >> Not happiness, sameness. > Oh, say it isn't so! I've had an adventuresome life and would gladly start > over. I consider boredom an unnatural state. Think about that for a minute, would you? I suspect you will find that your adventuresome life comes from having made conscious decisions, from not having taken the path of least resistance. Boredom is a state of rest, a natural state which a few of us do our utmost to rise above. Not me, mind. It is my natural inclination to do as little as possible for as long as possible, thereby forcing the issue. This, too, can lead to an interesting life. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Catweasel http://www.catweasel.org There's too much youth, how about a fountain of smart? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:42:37 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: NESchaadt Subject: way OT, WB Catweasel In-Reply-To: <36B05A87BE.1309CATWEASEL@send.mail.u-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just wanted to say I'm glad to see your .sig line again. Welcome back! NS >Trust me, I'm a doctor. >Catweasel >http://www.catweasel.org > >There's too much youth, how about a fountain of smart? > >