From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Apr 15 13:59:16 1999
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:26:20 -0500
From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)"
To: lquilter@HOOKED.NET
Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9902D"
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:18:13 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joyce Jones
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
Bertina asks "Does Jael hate men?"
Didn't she say somewhere that she loved men's bodies but hated their minds?
I've been looking for that statement and can't find it, but it sounds like
Jael, doesn't it?
Here's another of my favorite long quotations from this fun book:
"But how do you expect me to stand it all year? Week after week? For
twenty years? Little male voice says: It Was Her Menstrual Period.
Perfect explanation! Raging hormonal imbalances. His ghostly voice: "You
did it because you had your period. Bad girl" Oh beware of unclean vessels
who have that dir-ty menstrual period and Who Will Not Play!"
(long snip)
"After a long silence--"Was that necessary?" from The Weak One.
Still hurt, still able to be hurt by them! Amazing. You'd think my skin
would get thicker, but it doesn't. We're all of us still flat on our backs.
The boot's on our neck while we slowly, ever so slowly, gather the power and
the money and the resources into our own hands. While they play war games.
I put the car on Autom. and sat back, chilly with the reaction. My
heartbeat's quieting. Breath slower.
Was it necessary? (Nobody says this.) You could have turned him
off--maybe. You could have sat there all night. You could have nodded and
adored him until dawn. You could have let him throw his temper tantrum; you
could have lain under him--what difference does it make to you?--you'd have
forgotten it by morning.
You might even have made the poor man happy.
There is a pretense on my own side that we are too refined to care, too
compassionate for revenge--this is bullshit, I tell the idealists. "Being
with Men," they say, "has changed you."
"Look, was it necessary?" says one of the J's, addressing to me the serious
urgency of womankind's eternal quest for love, the ages-long effort to heal
the wounds of the sick soul, the infinite, caring compassion of the female
saint.
An over-familiar mode! Dawn comes up over the waste land, bringing into
existence the boulders and pebbles battered long ago by bombs, dawn gliding
with its pale possibilities even the Crazy Womb, the Ball-breaking Bitch,
the Fanged Killer Lady.
"I don't give a damn whether it was necessary or not," I said.
"I liked it."
Guess that calls for one more candle on the Jael alter.
Joyce
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:21:24 0100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: BDG: Flying Cups and Saucers
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Sometimes things do not work out. Apparently the paperback of the
Tiptree anthology 'Flying Cups and Saucers' is not available. As some
are certainly surprised by this, I list all the avenues I've checked:
- there is the announcement on the tiptree website
(http://www.tiptree.org/book/index.html). The order form there does
not work, the address of the publisher is given (Edgewood Press, PO
Box 380264, Cambridge, MA 02238).
- Amazon lists only the hardcopy of the anthology for 45$, shipping
time 4-6 weeks. None of the other internet bookstores I've checked
(book.com, alt.bookstore.com) offer the anthology at all.
- I've looked up the website of the publisher, Edgewood Press
(http://asylum.apocalypse.org/pub/u/vonnie/edgewood.html/) which is
hopelessly outdated (January 1997!). I've emailed the contact given
on this website (Yvonne). She answered she would check and mail me
again. So far, I haven't heard from her again.
- I've contacted Maryelizabeth from Mysterious Galaxy. That's her
answer:
>Dear Petra:
>
>Not sure if this is available at all in paperback at present. We have
>no copies, and I even checked Bibliofind. :( Sometimes this happens
>with specialty presses. Sorry for the bad news.
>
>Pax,
>
>Maryelizabeth
>
So, I think it is fairly save to say that the paperback is not
available and therefore the anthology not eligible for BDG. I am
really disappointed. Now I have to decide whether I am ready to spend
45$ for the hardcopy.
Petra
*** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:33:31 0100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: No BDG nominations?
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Sometimes the dynamics of an email distribution list are really
bewildering. The BDG nomination period is nearly half over and so far
we have only 3 (in words: three) nominations, all from the BDG
'staff':
Eleanor Arnason: Ring of Swords. Tor Books; ISBN: 0312890168,
$13.95 Paperback - 382 pages (January 1995)
Molly Gloss: The Dazzle of Day. Tor, 1998. Paperback, ISBN:
031286437X; List Price: $12.95
Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman. $11.95 Paperback Reprint edition
(August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064
The recommendations can be looked up at
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_nom.html
If you are interested in the next BDG round, I urge you to
nominate books you like to read.
Petra
*** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:58:55 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: donna simone
Subject: Re: BDG: Flying Cups and Saucers
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Petra/Maryelizabeth and all other BDG'ers
Please Please Hold Up! The Tiptree Motherboard is going to pale in horror
at our assessment that the that the book is not available. IT IS
AVAILABLE. Though their communication of that fact is lacking a bit I
admit. I also hold myself somewhat accountable. I am just starting
volunteer duties to assist in publicizing the availability of the
paperback edition. Additionally I have recently purchased, received and
mailed 4 copies of the book (in paperback) to friends, so I know
intimately that it is available to us.
Please give me some time to get updated information from the editor. I
will also report to all and sundry that the web site is out of date and
not functioning properly, and that the price quotes need to be corrected.
Please please dont give up yet. This book was made for us. Truly.
I will be back , donna
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:46:38 MET
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Anthea Hartley Stanton
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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On 21 Feb 99, at 17:01, Bertina Miller wrote:
> Does Jael hate men? This is what I am wondering a
> bout the Jael character.She kills a man who attacks
> her, who doesnt allow her to say "no" to his advances.
> I really dont believe she hates men. I think she is the most
> fascinating character that goes beyond the 70s attitudes
> and is futuristic in that she clearly has what many women
> still dont have. Autonomy from men. Is that a hatred of men?
If a male character believed that all women should either be killed or
lobotomised into sex- and baby-machines, we'd have no hesitation in calling
him a "woman hater". We'd think no differently if the character had only one
lobotomized sex-machine who he treated with the affection we'd give to a cat.
The husbands in _The Stepford Wives_ who "loved" but also lobotomised their
wives chemically are clearly "women haters" as - in a different context of
mutilation - are the real-life monsters that Mary Daly describes so eloquently
in _Gynecology, the Metaethics of Radical Feminism_.
So, in the reverse case, why should we blench at calling Jael a "man-hater"?
We have to accept Jael as she is, not use mental gymnastics to twist her into
a "nice girl".
AJ
Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net).
_______________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:04:34 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Robin Reid
Subject: Octavia Butler cover (was "hard sf)
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KATHLEEN wrote in relation to "African Americans" and "SF": "This has
bothered me for some time, and I haven't posted before only because, after
15 years, I can't remeber the exact title, but it pertains to the "covers"
discussion as well: the first novel I read by Octavia Butler had women on
the cover, yes, but it was a white woman unveiling another white woman. One
reason that story made such an impression on me (besides the hard-edged
adventure and fully realized alien world) was because it was told so well
from the point of view of a narrator who was naturally and irreplacebly
herself, and who dealt with the ironies and contradictions of awakening a
white woman into a world that only she had inhabited as human up to that time.
ROBIN replies: Yes, I know the exact book you mean. It was the paperback
edition of the first novel in the XENOGENESIS series (and I cannot for the
life of me remember the title, argh). Lilith Iyapo (?) is the protagonist,
main character, an African American woman, and the cover is NOTORIOUS in
discussions of Butler's work (Donna Harraway mentioned it early on) to show
the "prevalence" of assumed "whiteness" in SF because in this case the cover
art is so TRULY bad in so many ways.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:24:40 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Janice Bogstad
Subject: Re: Octavia Butler cover (was "hard sf)
In-Reply-To: <199902221404.IAA25443@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu>
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Hi, as others will no doubt mention, the book is called
DAWN - I am about to assist with a faculty-student seminar
at my university - the grantee for the seminar is in the
Philosophy and Religious Studies department and proposed
it on Dawn and Harraway's Manifesto for Cyborgs, but had
not background in science fiction. The first meeting is
tomorrow night (Tuesday) and I am looking forward to it
with great eagerness - only two of us have read Butler before
or know anything about her. I found several biographies to
hand out, and I know she won the McCarthur Foundation award
in recent years - does anyone remember if that was in 1994, 1995, 1996
or 1997? It's not in the bios I've found....it was the
year that Stimpson (I believe) was on the committee and that
a YA author, Virginia Hamilton, also won.
Other suggestions on Harraway and Butler's Dawn would also
be welcomed, either privately or on the list....Jan
ROBIN replies: Yes, I know the exact book you mean. It was the paperback
>edition of the first novel in the XENOGENESIS series (and I cannot for the
>life of me remember the title, argh). Lilith Iyapo (?) is the protagonist,
>main character, an African American woman, and the cover is NOTORIOUS in
>discussions of Butler's work (Donna Harraway mentioned it early on) to show
>the "prevalence" of assumed "whiteness" in SF because in this case the cover
>art is so TRULY bad in so many ways.
________________________________________________
Dr. Janice M. Bogstad, Associate Professor
Collection Development Librarian
Library & Information Services, McIntyre Library
University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire
Eau Claire, WI 54702-5010 USA
email: bogstajm@uwec.edu
telephone: 715-836-6032
"I HAVE NEVER REGRETTED BUYING A BOOK,
BUT I HAVE OFTEN REGRETTED NOT BUYING A BOOK."
_______________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:26:30 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Keith
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
In-Reply-To: <000901be5e44$46e2ac40$4ec9fcd0@default>
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Very apt, Joyce!
./lit major mode on
One thing that struck me on this reading of The Female Man was the
connection of Anna, the "changed" wife of the Big Boss, with Davy.
Placed as "she" is immediately before Davy is introduced, she presents a
mirror-image of the human/object duality that stands out so sharply when
the human is a woman and the object is male. But with differences: Anna,
like real women, really is a human, made to completely simulate an object
in order to survive. "Her" behavior is somewhat of a caracture of women's
in the 1960's, but read any 1950's novel, and she wouldn't stand out at
all. She is what Jeannine's world considers the peak of womanly ambition.
The objectification is complete in that this is not even a being most men
had been raised to believe was not quite human, but a man like themselves
that they _knew_ had been turned into this.
Then take Davy. "He" does minimal personal services for Jael, has almost
no mind, was never human to begin with. He is specifically not the
convolution of a complete human being into a thing fit into the confines
of another human being's will. He fills the physical and some of the
emotional needs for Jael that Anna and the other changed and half-changed
do for the men, but he is not parrallel, he is not a woman humiliated, cut
up and stuffed into service by other women, the way Anna was by the men.
But he is what shocks the other three women, and us too, by implication.
I think this was cleverly done: to take the normal, everyday, accepted
inhumanity of making women into life-long servants of men, show how taken
for granted it is, and then allow a woman a little of that power to
satisfy the same needs without negotiation, without recognition of the
Other's humanity, and let the shock this generates tell its own story.
One other note: the four characters from four different times reminds me
of the way Virginia Woolf tells the same events from different points of
view. Each of the four responds to events in a way consistent with the
background that made her, but also as the person "J" would anywhere. So
when one does something, the reaction of the other comments on it,
highlights, helps define it, in a way that a single character would not.
./lit major mode off
Seems to me a good way of presenting the consequences of choice, too. If
women had stuck to their guns during the eighties and nineties, if the
same men who found war and racism abhorent had not claimed as their own
the one prejudice that does them the most personal good, women might now,
for instance, be able to fight back against murderous husbands, boyfriends
and strangers and claim provacation and self-defense. Instead, the
accepted violence women occasionally defend themselves against had turned
into an abstract debate and become an academic topic, and any violence
women use in protection is shocking and "appropriately" punished by the
impersonal forces of the law.
Kathleen
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:25:48 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Pat
Subject: Re: Octavia Butler cover (was "hard sf)
In-Reply-To: <199902221404.IAA25443@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu>
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On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Robin Reid wrote:
> ROBIN replies: Yes, I know the exact book you mean. It was the paperback
> edition of the first novel in the XENOGENESIS series (and I cannot for the
> life of me remember the title, argh). Lilith Iyapo (?) is the protagonist,
> main character, an African American woman, and the cover is NOTORIOUS in
> discussions of Butler's work (Donna Harraway mentioned it early on) to show
> the "prevalence" of assumed "whiteness" in SF because in this case the cover
> art is so TRULY bad in so many ways.
"There's a bimbo on the cover of the book ....
Though the heroine is black, with the boss that cuts no slack...
So, there's a bimbo on the cover of the book..."
Kelvin Throop, ANALOG, date forgotten, quoted from memory.
>
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mathews@unm.edu
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:44:58 +0000
Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: geminiwalker
Organization: Gemini Walker Ink
Subject: Re: Re Jael, where are you?
In-Reply-To: <004801be5c49$3d68d100$ebc9fcd0@default>
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> (From the Women of Kali -- a feminist anti-porn monthly zine. I think Jael
> would fit right in here.)
>
> Joyce
>
>
Please ... tell me more about this magazine I just
have to have! Do they have a web site? How can
I get it????
...geminiwalker
chuard@earthlink
To learn more about me, go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard
updated 2/16/99
ICQ #27240345
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:35:22 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage
Subject: Re: BDG: Ring of Swords
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Can we convince the publisher by a write-in campaign?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jenny Rankine
To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 3:27 PM
Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ring of Swords
>Michael Marc Levy wrote - Eleanor pretty much finished a sequel to Ring of
>Swords a
>couple of years ago, but Tor refused to buy it because Ring sold
>poorly. I've read parts of it and it's wonderful, but it's sitting in a
>desk drawer in her apartment in Minneapolis and may never see print
>since few publishers will buy the second book in a series.
>
>This is terrible news! I _really_ enjoyed Ring of Swords and have been
>hanging out for the sequel. It's so frustrating to know it's written, but
>that those of us who love feminist SF can't get to read it. So much for
>capitalism delivering what consumers want!
>
>Jenny R
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:54:08 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jane Franklin
Subject: Re: cover art /Blue Place
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I too wasn't too entranced by the cover to Blue Place. I mean, I liked
the blue very much, but I really don't like this wave of photo covers of
fashion models in edgy clothes--they will look amazingly dated in a few
years, just like all those early eighties teen "problem novels" with photo
covers. Too, when I read a novel, I like to have a little leeway to
imagine the main character, and especially to imagine her _not_ looking
like a fashion model. I find it rather hard to get really into books
whose main characters are perfect looking _and_ whose perfection is
emphasized and re-emphasized. In fact, I generally don't buy books with
photo covers, although of course I will buy the Blue Place as soon as it's
out in paper, regardless of the cover--it could be what someone
characterized as a "barbarian breast fest" in another post, and I would
still buy it. Of course, this is all just my opinion, and even my best
friends have remarked that I make mules look flexible and open minded.
And I suppose that if I hadn't know about Nicola Griffiths's work, and had
ignored the book, then I would have missed out...of course, I would have
had the pleasure of being firm in my self-righteousness.
Speaking of which, I finally found Slow River, which is indeed selling
well here. I am midway along.
Also speaking of which, if anyone is going to the Minneapolis sf
convention, which I am not attending, actually, and would like directions
for good restaurants, the local feminist bookstore, the fabulous african
restaurant near my house, bars, clubs, what may have you, please let me
know off list.
d you dislike the cover for BLUE PLACE? I though it was great and very
striking, one of the better covers of last year, if unfortunately
somewhat thematically similar to Abbie Padgett's BLUE. >>
I'm not sure that I find the woman's knees at either side of the jacket to be
aesthetically pleasing. Are we looking at the same cover? By striking, are
you referring to the model's face or her posturing or the fact that the
photograph is tinted a very striking shade of blue?
And for that matter, who *is* that on the cover? Aud's 33, and I'd be pressed
not to card that model. It just seemed like an utter non-sequitur cover.
Surely, I'd not have known it was a suspense novel had it not been blazoned at
the bottom in neon yellow. It really strikes me as a "sex will sell this
thing" cover, not to the degree of romance novels, but certainly to the degree
that many magazines (read: the spectrum from Cosmo to Maxim) do.
Nicola might have some comments of her own, I think -- I vaguely remember
seeing something from her end at some point on the topic (her webpage,
perhaps?).
Helen
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:57:39 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Michael Marc Levy
Subject: Re: BDG: Ring of Swords
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On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage wrote:
> Can we convince the publisher by a write-in campaign?
Don't know if it would help or not. The publisher was Tor. The editor was
Patrick Nielsen Hayden (sp?).
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:53:32 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joe Sutliff Sanders
Subject: Re: The Way We Talk
In-Reply-To: <3bf4cfe.36ce3331@aol.com>
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>I swear this is true: I once read a research report that followed women's
>moods throughout their cycles. As a control, men were monitored too and it
>turned out, yes, Virginia, they too are on a 28 day cycle and got crankier
>than the women were noted to have done.
>
>The report was done years ago, and I no longer have the reference. Sorry.
>
>Madrone
I've heard that one, too, and I have no question that men run on
cycles. However, the report's statement that men "got crankier" made me
smile. What did they do, order a special Crank-o-meter?
Joe
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:07:16 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joe Sutliff Sanders
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <199902221033.LAA15159@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
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At 11:33 AM 2/22/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Sometimes the dynamics of an email distribution list are really
>bewildering. The BDG nomination period is nearly half over and so far
>we have only 3 (in words: three) nominations, all from the BDG
>'staff':
I've been considering nominating _To Say Nothing of the Dog_, and, thought
it's been nominated before, I'm hesitant to go ahead because I'm not sure
of the feminist and utopian qualifications. Any comments?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:01:45 0100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222100611.00b10990@pop.uky.edu>
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On 22 Feb 99 Joe Sutliff Sanders wrote:
> At 11:33 AM 2/22/99 +0000, you wrote:
> >Sometimes the dynamics of an email distribution list are really
> >bewildering. The BDG nomination period is nearly half over and so far
> >we have only 3 (in words: three) nominations, all from the BDG
> >'staff':
>
> I've been considering nominating _To Say Nothing of the
> Dog_, and, thought
> it's been nominated before, I'm hesitant to go ahead because I'm not
> sure of the feminist and utopian qualifications. Any comments?
Books to be nominated do not have to be utopias (totally or
partially). They have to be science fiction OR fantasy OR horror OR
utopias OR magic realism OR anything in the realm of phantastic
literature.
Feminist qualifications. That's sometimes very fuzzy. Opinions are
diverse on what is feminist (remember the BDG discussion on _Alien
Influences_). For nomination, go by your own definition. Then, it is
not expected that nominators have read the book before (I always
nominate book I have not read before). IMO hearsay on the contents
and topic of a book, opinions of reviewers, the 'reputation' of a
book (as feminist I mean) should be a good indicator. So far, in my
responsibility of compiling the nominations I have never made a check
on feminist content. That's practically impossible. And with the
exception of one or two books which can be seen as questionably
feminist in hindsight all books selected so far were certainly
feminist IMO. And the BDG discussion on whether some of the books
were feminist was always very enlightening.
_To Say Nothing of the Dog_ was nominated for the last BDG round (and
I think not accepted at that time because it was not yet available,
but I have not checked this). However, NONE of the nominations of
the last round are considered this time, only if they are nominated
AGAIN IN THIS WEEK.
Perhaps I have mislead list members by posting the URL of the last
nomination list. That was only to show how the nomination list will
look like in the end and as a reminder what might be worthwhile to
nominate. I am sorry if I confused anybody. So, once again to make it
completely clear: VALID FOR ELECTION FOR THE NEXT BDG ROUND ARE ONLY
THE BOOKS NOMINATED TILL THURSDAY (and so far that are 3 books).
Joe, just go ahead and nominate _To Say Nothing of the Dog_
(after you've checked current availability). To me it sounds like a
good choice.
Petra
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:19:07 EST
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Phoebe Wray
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
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Anyone have an interest in one of Linda K. Hamilton's books?
phoebe
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:13:57 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jennifer Krauel
Subject: Re: BDG: Ring of Swords
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Well, one good first step would be to vote for Ring of Swords for our next
round of discussions (shameless promotion of my nomination). Or just run
out and buy it.
Seems to me I recall Arnason on this list for awhile but I think she got
overwhelmed by the quantity of mail. Perhaps she'd rejoin us for the
discussion.
Jennifer
At 08:35 AM 02/22/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Can we convince the publisher by a write-in campaign?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jenny Rankine
>To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
>Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 3:27 PM
>Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ring of Swords
>
>
>>Michael Marc Levy wrote - Eleanor pretty much finished a sequel to Ring of
>>Swords a
>>couple of years ago, but Tor refused to buy it because Ring sold
>>poorly. I've read parts of it and it's wonderful, but it's sitting in a
>>desk drawer in her apartment in Minneapolis and may never see print
>>since few publishers will buy the second book in a series.
>>
>>This is terrible news! I _really_ enjoyed Ring of Swords and have been
>>hanging out for the sequel. It's so frustrating to know it's written, but
>>that those of us who love feminist SF can't get to read it. So much for
>>capitalism delivering what consumers want!
>>
>>Jenny R
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:55:26 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Dave Samuelson
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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I recognize how perceptive the literary analysis here is, and I suspect the
last paragraph is as well, but I find it gnomic. I just don't know what the
generalities refer to. Maybe my disconnect is part of the problem?
Keith wrote:
> Very apt, Joyce!
>
> ./lit major mode on
>
> One thing that struck me on this reading of The Female Man was the
> connection of Anna, the "changed" wife of the Big Boss, with Davy.
> Placed as "she" is immediately before Davy is introduced, she presents a
> mirror-image of the human/object duality that stands out so sharply when
> the human is a woman and the object is male. But with differences: Anna,
> like real women, really is a human, made to completely simulate an object
> in order to survive. "Her" behavior is somewhat of a caracture of women's
> in the 1960's, but read any 1950's novel, and she wouldn't stand out at
> all. She is what Jeannine's world considers the peak of womanly ambition.
> The objectification is complete in that this is not even a being most men
> had been raised to believe was not quite human, but a man like themselves
> that they _knew_ had been turned into this.
>
> Then take Davy. "He" does minimal personal services for Jael, has almost
> no mind, was never human to begin with. He is specifically not the
> convolution of a complete human being into a thing fit into the confines
> of another human being's will. He fills the physical and some of the
> emotional needs for Jael that Anna and the other changed and half-changed
> do for the men, but he is not parrallel, he is not a woman humiliated, cut
> up and stuffed into service by other women, the way Anna was by the men.
> But he is what shocks the other three women, and us too, by implication.
>
> I think this was cleverly done: to take the normal, everyday, accepted
> inhumanity of making women into life-long servants of men, show how taken
> for granted it is, and then allow a woman a little of that power to
> satisfy the same needs without negotiation, without recognition of the
> Other's humanity, and let the shock this generates tell its own story.
>
> One other note: the four characters from four different times reminds me
> of the way Virginia Woolf tells the same events from different points of
> view. Each of the four responds to events in a way consistent with the
> background that made her, but also as the person "J" would anywhere. So
> when one does something, the reaction of the other comments on it,
> highlights, helps define it, in a way that a single character would not.
>
> ./lit major mode off
>
> Seems to me a good way of presenting the consequences of choice, too. If
> women had stuck to their guns during the eighties and nineties, if the
> same men who found war and racism abhorent had not claimed as their own
> the one prejudice that does them the most personal good, women might now,
> for instance, be able to fight back against murderous husbands, boyfriends
> and strangers and claim provacation and self-defense. Instead, the
> accepted violence women occasionally defend themselves against had turned
> into an abstract debate and become an academic topic, and any violence
> women use in protection is shocking and "appropriately" punished by the
> impersonal forces of the law.
>
> Kathleen
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:26:51 -0400
Reply-To: asaro@sff.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Catherine Asaro
Subject: Re: "Hard" Science Fiction
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David wrote:
> Thanks. I am familiar with Slonczewski and Wilhelm, and someone else reminded me
> (offlist) of Nagata, who is on my must-read-soon list. Asaro, who is on this list, is
> not a name I have run into before.
David, probably the "hardest" of my books are:
Primary Inversion
Catch the Lightning
The Radiant Seas (sequel to Primary Inversion)
My other books are:
The Last Hawk
The Quantum Rose (to be serialized in May, June, July 1999 Analog; then
pub by Tor)
TQR is actually very hard, in that everything is worked out from first
principles of science, both in terms of the worldbuilding and also the
underlying allegory to multi-channel quantum scattering theory. But it
"feels" soft because it takes place on a low tech world and is seen from
the pointof view of a person native to that world. It will be
interesting to see what happens when it appears in Analog.
If you would like descriptions of the books, James Schellenberg wrote
essays on the first three at:
http://www.golden.net/~csp/reviews/asaro.htm
If you're intereste din the physics behind the "inversion drive" used in
the stories, it's in a paper I wrote that appeared in the Americna
Journal of Physics, April 1996.
I missed the first part of this discussion, so I'm not exactly sure what
you're looking for. My books rely on relativistic physics and quantum
extrapolations I've worked out from first principles, and also molecular
dynamics and genetics. My doctorate is in theoretical atomic and
molecular physics, and my current work is with the Breakthrough
Propulsion Physics program at NASA. I've also a degree in chemistry.
So I use all those backgrounds in my books.
I sometimes get the complaint "The quantum stuff sounds like fantasy to
me, so it must be fantasy." It isn't; it is all extrapolated from known
theories of quantum mechanics, starting with one very entertaining (and
fictional) "What if?", which is, "What if the quantum wavefunctions that
describe the neurological processes going on in our brain could be
transformed to a space defined by the =result= of those processes (that
is, our thoughts) in a manner similar to the way a time function is
transformed by a Fourier transform to a frequency function."
The problem is that QM itself sounds fantastical, even when you describe
principles that have been well known for decades. So every now and then
a reader will say, essentially, "I don't understand this, so it must be
handwaving."
Actually, this harkens back to my previous post, about how misleading
comments in science fiction, particularly about "hard" SF, get repeated
until they are "truisms" that some readers accept without thinking it
through. The above comment is usually accompanied by, "But that must be
fantasy; it involves empaths!" In truth, though, the fictional
extrapolations from known neuroscience required to come up with a
reasonably plausible mechanism for empaths is rather trivial. It is
still fiction, but it is far less out-the-wazoo than some of the ideas
about cosmology and so on. This is not to say I mind the cosmology
ideas; they are great fun. Greg Benford and Charless Sheffield have
done some wonderful stuff, for example. But to call empathy "fantasy"
in the face of such far more fantastical elements is rather silly.
However, it has become the "thing" to say this is fantasy, without
looking at the details. I suspect it has something to do with the fact
that applications of science to the mind involve emotions and the
internal development of the characters, aspects of fiction which have
traditionally made a rather poor showing in Hard SF. The field is
opening up more now, however.
--
Best regards
Catherine Asaro
http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:15:43 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Big Yellow Woman
Subject: BDG Nomination: The Kin of ATA Are Waiting for You
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I nominate:
Dorothy Bryant, _The Kin of Ata Are Waiting For You_ isbn0679778438
Random House $11.95 1997 reprint (originally published 1971
>From a reader reveiw at Amazon (since I haven't read it in awhile and
the synopses at Amazon are poor):
"Imagine waking from an car accident, injured badly - but healed. By
who? Mysterious shamans who move in shadows, showing you all the
love and sympathy you've lacked in your hollow life. Imagine finally
seeing their faces. Beautiful people of all races and mixes between,
speaking a foreign language with their lips, but a universal language
with their smiles. Imagine then being well enough to see your
surroundings - see that while your accident occured in a desert, you are
now surrounded by water! This is the genesis of ATA, and by the time you
close the book you will find your heart similarly healed - and when you
are able, you will see that your surroundings are not what they once
were. You only have to want it and believe in it."
Though I regret the warm and fuzzy tone of the above, I must agree in
spirit and add that this book is one I constantly collect and give to
friends. It involves more than a "spiritual" journey, but a very
practical one in which the protagonist is transported to a subsistence
society in which dreams are used to guide behavior and culture.
I think it is also an important book in terms of 70's feminist science
fiction in that it takes a somewhat different approach to alternative
cultures than such novels as Female Man and Woman on the Edge of Time.
The fact that it can still generate enough interest to be reprinted
after 26 years is a great indication of the quality of this novel.
I've attached the Amazon.com page for any who want it. Susan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679778438/qid=919709948/
sr=1-1/002-4643256-8709847
attachment
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:26:10 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Big Yellow Woman
Subject: Elizabeth Moon
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Can anyone tell me a little bit about Elizabeth Moon and/or the Paladin
trilogy? Would you consider it feminist? Just saw her name and was
curious. Thanks.
Susan
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:56:39 -0000
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Yvonne Rowse
Subject: bdg nomination
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I'd like to nominate Four Ways to Forgiveness by Ursula LeGuin. There has
been some discussion about it on the list and I would be fascinated to read
more.
It's the book made up of four novellas based on a planet where slavery has
been standard practice for years. I can't remember the names of the stories
and the book is buried somewhere but this was the book where my curiosity
about Hain was finally satisfied. I'd wondered for years how a culture that
had been around for hundreds of millenia would work.
I'd also like to nominate or second the Tiptree book, Flying Cups and
Saucers. I have my copy already thanks to donna! It's $18 and well worth it
and if Four Ways doesn't make it one of the stories is in this book.
Yvonne
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:59:36 -0400
Reply-To: asaro@sff.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Catherine Asaro
Subject: Re: "Hard" Science Fiction
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Dave, it crops up all the time, both in academics and on the Usenet.
You can see these things repeated a lot in the newsgroups. It comes
from a lack of understanding science. That is, a concept or idea sounds
"nifty" or "high-tech" and the book is written in a certain way, but the
actual science isn't that good. Or it may be one good idea, but nothing
much is done with the rest of the world-building. I've had discussions
on the Usenet where it was obvious the folks trying to define hard SF
didn't understand science.
This also happens in academic circles. For example, endless debates go
on about this silly story "The Cold Equations," which is a poorly
plotted, melo-dramatic rendering of the fear of science. Even the title
reflects that fear. It's like "The Heartless Wrenches" or "The Cruel
Addition Sign." It is also chock full of scientific mistakes. However,
it isn't only the mistakes and anti-science attitude that make it a poor
choice as "hard" SF, it is also the fact that its approach to the
situation is, in itself, anti-scientific. In real life, NASA would have
fired a pilot that incompetent and the military would have
courtmartialed the people who set up the situation. Yet this story is
often held up as the "ultimate" hard SF story. It's a disheartening
indication of how poorly science is understood even by the general
readership of SF.
The story is also about a young woman being shoved out an airlock. I
would bet you that had it been a fouteen year old boy shoved out that
airlock instead of a sexualized teenaged girl, it would have made it
into almost no lists of the supposedly quintiseential hard SF stories.
It has been eloquently argued by many scholars that the popularity of
TCE reflects a fear of both science and women in our culture.
I see far less of that attitude on in this list.
> I certainly agree that the argument cited is invalid, but I've never heard
> it voiced or seen it in print, and I've done a good deal of research on hard
> sf. I've also maintained for years that literary critics of sf are
> tone-deaf when it comes to science and try to wish it away. In this
> colloquy I'm also wondering out loud how prominent this same attitude is
> among subscribers to this list, whose interest is explicitly in feminist
> fantasy, sf, and utopian literature.
>
>
> Catherine Asaro wrote:
>
> > The problem with most definitions of hard science fiction that I've seen
> > (not here, but elsewhere) is that they are silly because they are
> > illogical.
> >
> > Invariably, the definition starts out with some variation of the
> > following:
> >
> > "Hard science fiction is science fiction based in accepted science."
> >
> > Okay. That's fine.
> >
> > Then comes the bizarre part.
> >
> > Most of the literary analyses on what forms of literature satisfy the
> > above definition are made by people who don't know science. Often they
> > are in literature departments. The analyses then proceed according to
> > how they perceive the "feel" of science, rather than according to actual
> > science.
> >
> > It leads to some bizarre logic. The following is an example. We start
> > with two statements:
> >
> > 1. Most sf that satisfies the definition for "hard" has been written by
> > men.
> > 2. The fiction that those men write often has a particular slant to it.
> >
> > >From those two statements, a third one is "derived"
> >
> > 3. Therefore, only works with that slant satisfy the defintion.
> >
> > The third statement is the silly one. It can't be deduced from the
> > first two.
> >
> > Unfortunately, all too many definitions of hard sf make that leap.
> >
> > What makes it so funny is that the leap itself is contrary to the very
> > quality of the science fiction that the analyses seek to define.
> >
--
Best regards
Catherine Asaro
http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:32:01 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Michael Marc Levy
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <199902221601.RAA17066@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
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On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Petra Mayerhofer wrote:
> (I always
> nominate book I have not read before). IMO hearsay on the contents
> and topic of a book, opinions of reviewers, the 'reputation' of a
> book (as feminist I mean) should be a good indicator.
I haven't participated much in the book talks because usually I have read
the book before, but too long ago to feel very confident of the facts, so
I like this idea.
There's been a lot of talk about David Weber's Honor Harrington books.
How about doing one of them? I'd like to nominate the first one, To
Basilisk Station, in part because the publisher, Baen, has just brought
out a special $1.99 paperback edition of the book as well as, I believe,
a not very expensive new hardcover edition.
Mike Levy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:48:26 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Peatling & Barnes
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
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I second the nomination of _To Say Nothing of the Dog_
JaneP
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:55:56 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Terri
Subject: BDG Nominations
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I would like to nominate Into the Green by Charles
de Lint.It is currently available in mass paperback.
This is what Amazon has to say about it...
Angharad, a young woman gifted--as tinker, harper, and witch--with three
strains of magic, is sent, against her own misgivings, on a quest to find,
open, and banish a puzzle box that threatens to destroy the people of the
mythical
Middle Earth. As she wanders the Green Isles in search of others with a
touch of witch blood to be allies in her task, Angharad fans hatred in
those fearful of witchcraft and loyalty in unexpected quarters. De Lint has
again woven a tale rich in Celtic myth and magic and featuring memorable
characters and tight plotting.
Also a musician, de Lint intends to append some "Tunes from the Kingdoms of the
Green Isles" for "small harp and other melody instruments" to the published
book.Candace Smith.
This is one of my all time favorite books
Terri
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I would like to nominate Into the Green by
Charles
de Lint.It is currently available in mass paperback.
This is what Amazon has to say about it...
Mishawaka_BoldAngharad, a young woman
gifted--as tinker, harper, and witch--with three strains of magic, is
sent, against her own misgivings, on a quest to find, open, and banish
a puzzle box that threatens to destroy the people of the mythical
Middle Earth. As she wanders the Green Isles in search of others with a
touch of witch blood to be allies in her task, Angharad fans hatred in
those fearful of witchcraft and loyalty in unexpected quarters. De Lint
has again woven a tale rich in Celtic myth and magic and featuring
memorable characters and tight plotting.
Also a musician, de Lint intends to append some "Tunes from the
Kingdoms of the
Green Isles" for "small harp and other melody instruments" to the
published book.Candace Smith.
This is one of my all time favorite books
Terri
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:10:56 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Stephany Burge
Subject: Re: BDG: Flying Cups and Saucers
In-Reply-To: <199902221021.LAA15055@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>; from Petra
Mayerhofer on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:21:24AM +0000
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Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:21:24AM +0000, Petra Mayerhofer writes...
> Sometimes things do not work out. Apparently the paperback of the
> Tiptree anthology 'Flying Cups and Saucers' is not available. As some
> are certainly surprised by this, I list all the avenues I've checked:
I have another source for everyone. I received my copy on friday.
http://bigchair.com/ziesing/sci_fi.htm
They only have the paperback in stock though for $18 plus S&H. They are
very friendly and very prompt! I highly recommend them. I tried using
amazon, but after a month of waiting, I gave up.
I found this bookseller through www.bibliofind.com. I really want to thank
whomever posted that url. It is one of the most useful sites I have seen in
a long while.
-Stephany
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:46:47 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Janice Bogstad
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <199902221601.RAA17066@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
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Hi, I'd like to nominate Six Moon Dance by Sheri Tepper...
or, alternately, if that is too new, Grass or Family Tree
Jan Bogstad
At 05:01 PM 2/22/99, you wrote:
>On 22 Feb 99 Joe Sutliff Sanders wrote:
>> At 11:33 AM 2/22/99 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Sometimes the dynamics of an email distribution list are really
>> >bewildering. The BDG nomination period is nearly half over and so far
>> >we have only 3 (in words: three) nominations, all from the BDG
>> >'staff':
________________________________________________
Dr. Janice M. Bogstad, Associate Professor
Collection Development Librarian
Library & Information Services, McIntyre Library
University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire
Eau Claire, WI 54702-5010 USA
email: bogstajm@uwec.edu
telephone: 715-836-6032
"I HAVE NEVER REGRETTED BUYING A BOOK,
BUT I HAVE OFTEN REGRETTED NOT BUYING A BOOK."
_______________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:27:48 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jennifer Krauel
Subject: BDG nominations
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Great to see all these nominations.
Please remember to include the details for Petra -- title, author, ISDN,
price, etc. It's easy to just cut and paste that from the web site you
look it up on, and it's a good double-check that the books is currently
available in paperback.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:21:33 EST
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Phoebe Wray
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
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In a message dated 2/22/99 8:35:21 PM, Mike Levy wrote:
<>
Second. I'm an Honor geek. The title is ON Basilisk Station. Probably best
to start with the first one.
phoebe
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:46:14 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jo Ann Rangel
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
In-Reply-To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I would like to nominate Beggars In Spain by Nancy Kress...primarily
because the premise of being able to alter the human geneset so that
certain normal processes of human functioning (as in this case removing the
need to sleep), fascinates me to no end, and such medical miracles are not
too far fetched in real life at this time of the century.
>From the back cover of the 1993 paperback:
Born in 2008, Leisha Camden is beautiful, extraordinarily
intelligent...and one of an ever-growing number of human beings who have
been genetically modified to never require sleep.
Once she and "her kind" were considered interesting anomalies. Now they
are outcasts---victims of blind hatred, political repression and shocking
mob violence meant to drive the "Sleepless" from human society...and,
ultimately, from the Earth itself.
But Leisha Camden has chosen to remain behind in a world that envies and
fears her "gift"--a world marked for destruction in a devastating
conspiracy of freedom...and revenge.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:50:06 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jo Ann Rangel
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
In-Reply-To:
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I forgot to put down the information for Beggars In Spain For Petra:
Title: Beggars In Spain
Author: Nancy Kress
copyright: 1994
Publisher: AvoNova, March 1994
ISDN: 0-380-71877-4
This version is available at Amazon.com
Jo Ann 8)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:47:31 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joyce Jones
Subject: the new terminator
Doesn't this sound like a science fiction novel waiting to be written?
Well, no I guess it already has been. This idea could have been developed
on the supermaterialistic planet of Urras in Ursula Le Guin's _The
Dispossessed_. Just when you think the powers that be can't get any worse,
they show you that they can.
Joyce
1. Meet The New "Terminator"
*****************************************************************
Remember when manufacturers invented "built-in obsolescence" to make you
buy a new toaster every few years?
Genetic engineering is doing the same thing to the world's farmers --
forcing them to buy seeds every year.
How? By genetically altering seeds to make them good for only one
harvest. The second-generation seeds are sterile, in other words,
TERMINATED.
Last year, Monsanto in the U.S. and Astra-Zeneca in the U.K. patented
Terminator
Seeds. Organizations of small farmers around the world are challenging the
morality
of Terminator Technology, which they fear may terminate THEM.
Poor farmers cannot afford to purchase seeds every growing season. They grow
15 to 20
percent of the world's food, most of it from seeds saved from the previous
harvest.
At least 1.4 billion people depend on farm-saved seed for their survival.
To learn more AND help fight the "Terminator," please go to:
http://www.globalresponse.org
*****************************************************************
2. Genetic Seed Sterilization - The "Holy Grail"
*****************************************************************
RAFI*, a Canadian-based rural advocacy organization, announced that it has
uncovered more than three dozen new patents describing a wide range of
techniques that can be used for the genetic sterilization of plants and
seeds....
The new generation of patents goes beyond the genetic neutering of crops.
The patents reveal that companies are developing suicide seeds whose genetic
traits can be turned on and off by an external chemical "inducer" -- mixed
with the company's patented agrochemicals.
In the not-so-distant future, we may see farmers planting seeds that will
develop
into productive (but sterile) crops only if sprayed with a carefully
prescribed regimen
that includes the company's proprietary pesticide, fertilizer or herbicide.
"The patents reveal that engineered seed sterility is not an isolated
research
agenda
- - it's the Holy Grail of the ag biotech industry," says Pat Mooney of
RAFI.
* Rural Advancement Foundation International
View RAFI's complete press release and related reports at
http://www.rafi.org
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:10:52 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Big Yellow Woman
Subject: Re: the new terminator
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Joyce Jones wrote:
>
> Doesn't this sound like a science fiction novel waiting to be written?
> Well, no I guess it already has been. This idea could have been developed
> on the supermaterialistic planet of Urras in Ursula Le Guin's _The
> Dispossessed_. Just when you think the powers that be can't get any worse,
> they show you that they can.
Actually, this sounds very similar to the family business in _Slow
River_ where the bioremediation process is dependent on the bacteria
which are then dependent on their food, which is of course patented,
costs more money, and must be constantly replenished.
But this this sounds *very* dangerous despite the motivating profit
factor.
Sometimes I think we're just doomed :(
Thanks for passing this on, though.
Susan
> 1. Meet The New "Terminator"
> *****************************************************************
> Remember when manufacturers invented "built-in obsolescence" to make you
> buy a new toaster every few years?
> Genetic engineering is doing the same thing to the world's farmers --
> forcing them to buy seeds every year.
> How? By genetically altering seeds to make them good for only one
> harvest. The second-generation seeds are sterile, in other words,
> TERMINATED.
> Last year, Monsanto in the U.S. and Astra-Zeneca in the U.K. patented
> Terminator
> Seeds. Organizations of small farmers around the world are challenging the
> morality
> of Terminator Technology, which they fear may terminate THEM.
> Poor farmers cannot afford to purchase seeds every growing season. They grow
> 15 to 20
> percent of the world's food, most of it from seeds saved from the previous
> harvest.
> At least 1.4 billion people depend on farm-saved seed for their survival.
>
> To learn more AND help fight the "Terminator," please go to:
> http://www.globalresponse.org
> *****************************************************************
> 2. Genetic Seed Sterilization - The "Holy Grail"
> *****************************************************************
> RAFI*, a Canadian-based rural advocacy organization, announced that it has
> uncovered more than three dozen new patents describing a wide range of
> techniques that can be used for the genetic sterilization of plants and
> seeds....
>
> The new generation of patents goes beyond the genetic neutering of crops.
> The patents reveal that companies are developing suicide seeds whose genetic
> traits can be turned on and off by an external chemical "inducer" -- mixed
> with the company's patented agrochemicals.
> In the not-so-distant future, we may see farmers planting seeds that will
> develop
> into productive (but sterile) crops only if sprayed with a carefully
> prescribed regimen
> that includes the company's proprietary pesticide, fertilizer or herbicide.
> "The patents reveal that engineered seed sterility is not an isolated
> research
> agenda
> - - it's the Holy Grail of the ag biotech industry," says Pat Mooney of
> RAFI.
> * Rural Advancement Foundation International
> View RAFI's complete press release and related reports at
> http://www.rafi.org
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:22:54 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: donna simone
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
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I would like to nominate _The Last Hawk_ by Catherine Asaro.
Just out from Tor in paper at the end of 98. Some well justified hype
below. Also, C. Asaro has said previously here that each of her books
stands alone, so no need for all of us to have read the two earlier
Skolian books.
Quotes:
The Last Hawk - Catherine Asaro
^ÓThe Last Hawk is a true gem, with believable hard science, human drama,
and people and events that will draw in any perceptive reader. Impossible
to put down, The Last Hawk embodies excellence in prose and science
fiction, an excellence all too rare in any era.^Ôsp^×L.E. Modesitt, Jr,
author of The Spellsong Cycle
^ÓCatherine Asaro^Òs The Last Hawk is not the usual sort of thing, for it
hybridizes sf with romance, turns the mix on its head, and makes it all
work quite well. ^Å this one^Òs a winner.^Ôsp^×Tom Easton, Analog
^ÓRising star Catherine Asaro exploded onto the science fiction scene with
all the blazing glory of a supernova with her first book called Primary
Inversion. Now, in the third tale of the Skolian Empire, we see not only
the powerful characterization and intriguing scientific concepts of the
first two books, but also an elegant subtlety and a far-reaching sense of
destiny that carries her to the highest rank of master
storyteller.^Ôsp^×Melinda Helfer, Romantic Times
Sample chapters available also:
http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/HawkPromo.htp
And a more lengthy review:
http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/asaro_last.html
donna
donnaneely@earthlink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:35:49 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: donna simone
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
MIME-Version: 1.0
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And another...
Maximum Light - Nancy Kress
Jan 99 mass market paperback release
"Book Description: (copped from the book)
It is only a few decades into the future. Humanity's ability to conceive
children has been severely reduced by pollution and disease. Kids are
scarce and desirable, adoption is almost impossible. Three people are
entangled in a life-threatening web. A teenaged girl sees something
shocking and illegal, but is disciplined and told she is a liar. She goes
to an elderly doctor, the only one who suspects she might be telling the
truth. And a man wakes up one morning calmed by a drug that helps edit
unpleasant memories--but with his testicles gone."
Review: (copped from Amazon, though Locus hailed it as well, so dont hold
Amazon's opinion against the book )
Science Fiction and Fantasy Editor's Recommended Book
In Maximum Light, which takes place in the near future, synthetic
chemicals are destroying the fertility of nearly every species on Earth,
including humans. The birthrate has dropped so low that the human
population consists primarily of people over the age of 50, and children
are considered precious resources. Shana Walders and Cameron Atuli get
caught up in a bizarre conspiracy to create hybrid human/animal
"substitutes" for couples desperate for a young one to love. But when
75-year-old Congressional advisor Nick Clementi becomes involved, he
discovers that the conspiracy goes far deeper than anyone would believe,
and the future of the human race may be at stake. This fast-paced thriller
from veteran science fiction author Nancy Kress keeps the plot twists
coming, which makes Maximum Light a difficult book to put down once you've
started. "
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:38:47 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Big Yellow Woman
Subject: tepper nomination
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For those to whom price is an object, FYI Six moon dance by Sherri
Tepper will be available in mass paperback in April '99. (And who can
afford new hardbacks? Not me!) :) Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Bertina Miller
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
In-Reply-To: <19990222114638.24386.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I dont think I thought of her as nice. I think that the point that was
made for having her world come last was Russ' point. Surely the
only way (especially from a 70s perspective) that a world could come about
where women could actually have autonomy is a Jael world. Because the
Janet Everson world is incomplete-meaning that it isnt a logical
conclusion to the 70s war of the sexes. Why did Russ have Janet cry when
she saw Jael kill? Why did Russ have Jael say that Jeannine was the most
intelligent of all the "j" women? Which world is utopian? I at first
thought when I read it for the first time that there really wasnt a utopia
that Russ was trying to convey. I thought each world she portrayed was
equally stressful. Now I think the Utopia isnt Janet's world (which I
tried to imagine must have been the utopia Russ was seeking, but why then
end with Jael's world?). It must be Jael's world. Though I assume
different people would find different worlds utopian for different
reasons. Am I thoroughly off tract here?
Curious,
Bertina
bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu
On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote:
> On 21 Feb 99, at 17:01, Bertina Miller wrote:
>
> > Does Jael hate men? This is what I am wondering a
> > bout the Jael character.She kills a man who attacks
> > her, who doesnt allow her to say "no" to his advances.
> > I really dont believe she hates men. I think she is the most
> > fascinating character that goes beyond the 70s attitudes
> > and is futuristic in that she clearly has what many women
> > still dont have. Autonomy from men. Is that a hatred of men?
>
> If a male character believed that all women should either be killed or
> lobotomised into sex- and baby-machines, we'd have no hesitation in calling
> him a "woman hater". We'd think no differently if the character had only one
> lobotomized sex-machine who he treated with the affection we'd give to a cat.
> The husbands in _The Stepford Wives_ who "loved" but also lobotomised their
> wives chemically are clearly "women haters" as - in a different context of
> mutilation - are the real-life monsters that Mary Daly describes so eloquently
> in _Gynecology, the Metaethics of Radical Feminism_.
>
> So, in the reverse case, why should we blench at calling Jael a "man-hater"?
> We have to accept Jael as she is, not use mental gymnastics to twist her into
> a "nice girl".
>
>
>
>
> AJ
> Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net).
> _______________________________________
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:25:21 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Maryelizabeth Hart
Subject: OT: For what it's worth
Mime-Version: 1.0
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There won't be two thumbs up or down in response to movies like Vampire$
any more, as Gene Siskal dies last week.
Maryelizabeth
Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747
3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747
San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX
http://www.mystgalaxy.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:05:11 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joe Sutliff Sanders
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <199902221601.RAA17066@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>
>Feminist qualifications. That's sometimes very fuzzy. Opinions are
>diverse on what is feminist (remember the BDG discussion on _Alien
>Influences_). For nomination, go by your own definition.
Okay, I'll do that. This might prove interesting.
>
>_To Say Nothing of the Dog_ was nominated for the last BDG round (and
>I think not accepted at that time because it was not yet available,
>but I have not checked this). However, NONE of the nominations of
>the last round are considered this time, only if they are nominated
>AGAIN IN THIS WEEK.
>
>Perhaps I have mislead list members by posting the URL of the last
>nomination list. That was only to show how the nomination list will
>look like in the end and as a reminder what might be worthwhile to
>nominate. I am sorry if I confused anybody.
I don't think you confused anyone. I mentioned that it had been brought
up before (I suppose I should fess up and say that I am the one who
nominated it last time) only to point out that we had been willing to
consider considering it as a feminist work. I knew that I had to nominate
the book again, and I think your explanations have been both understandable
and brief.
All right, here's my official nomination. I nominate Connie Willis' _To
Say Nothing of the Dog_. I saw it this weekend in paperback, so I know
it's available.
I'm nominating this book largely on the strength of its author and her
previous works. I'm also hoping to see some discussion of whether we can
consider this book feminist, though it may be that this selection is too
mainstream for the list's tastes. Willis is a brilliant writer, one of the
few science fiction writers who can weave layers of humor into a solid,
realistic story. It's the latest in a line of wonderful tales by the Hugo
and Nebula- winning author of _Doomsday Book_ and several wonderful short
stories and novellas. _TSNoTD_ takes the sf trope of time travel and gives
it her own twist, blending an exciting theory of time travel with romance,
humor, and mystery.
Joe
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:07:30 -0500
Reply-To: releon@syr.edu
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Rudy Leon
Organization: Syracuse University
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <199902221601.RAA17066@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'll bite, with two nominations:
1) How about _The Gilda Stories_? It was nominated by the
group before, and Amazon has it as being in print, in paperback,
although Trade paperback (12 US bones) Here's from the BDG
page at http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/noms.html
Jewelle Gomez: The Gilda Stories
Nominator:
This because we owe it to ourselves to read what this brilliant and
remarkable woman has to say both in her fiction and in her essays
(even if we cannot recommend those).
Midwest Book Review :
The Gilda Stories is an elegant, sensual, and natural vampire
fantasy. Time-traveling from Southern slavery in 1850 to
environmental devastation 200 years later, Gilda is the
quintessential outsider seeking community. Jewelle Gomez
combines a natural flair for storyteller with an ability to weave
tapestries of personality that grab the mind's imagination and won't
let go. A memorable story, deftly told.
And 2) Catherine Asaro's _Primary Inversions_ This, I believe, is
the first of the series (my intention, anyhow, was to nominate the
first of the series). Her web page has the first three chapters
( http://www.sff.net/people/asaro ), and we've talked a lot about
these books here. Remember, though, I'm the one who'se always
concerned about the presence of authors onlist....
A question: would something like _By the Light of My Father's
Eye_ by Alice Walker, be something nominable? If it were in
paperback, anyway? How about _Mistress of Spices_, by Chitra
Banerjee Divakaruni, an Indian author, and seems like some
interesting magical storytelling, rather like _Like Water for
Chocolate_. And it's in paperback! reviews below are off
Amazon's site -- some of the reader reviews are pretty mixed.
Amazon.com
In the world created by first-time novelist Chitra Banerjee
Divakaruni, there is a spice to cure every human ailment, and her
heroine, Tilo, is in fact The Mistress of Spices. Tilo (short for
Tilottama) comes by her curative powers in a magically roundabout
way. Born in India, she ends up on a remote island courtesy of
pirates and sea snakes. Here she encounters an ancient woman
who instructs her in the power of spice. Her education complete,
Tilo heads for Oakland, California, to practice her healing arts. She
diagnoses the ills of the various people who come to her spice
shop, and cures them, too, until one day she discovers that magic
is a double-edged sword.
Women's Studies Editor's Recommended Book
On a mythic island of women "where on our skin, the warm rain fell
like pomegranate seeds" powerful spices like cinnamon, turmeric,
and fenugreek whisper their secrets to young acolytes. Ordained
after trial by fire, each new spice mistress is sent to a far-off land to
cure the life pains of all Indian seekers, while keeping a cool
distance from the mortals. Only stubborn, passionate Tilo,
disguised as an old woman merchant in present-day Oakland,
California, fails to heed the vengeful spices' warnings. Fragrant with
spice and sensuality, this winning tale rolls off the tongue. Written
in the soaring, poetic tradition of China Men and Haroun and the
Sea of Stories
Let the nominations continue!
Rudy Leon
PhD Candidate
Dept. of Religion
Syracuse University
releon@syr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:19:31 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Terri
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <199902221601.RAA17066@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
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I would like to nominate Into the Green by Charles
de Lint.It is currently available in mass paperback.
This is what Amazon has to say about it...
Angharad, a young woman gifted--as tinker, harper, and witch--with three
strains of magic, is sent, against her own misgivings, on a quest to find,
open, and banish a puzzle box that threatens to destroy the people of the
mythical
Middle Earth. As she wanders the Green Isles in search of others with a
touch of witch blood to be allies in her task, Angharad fans hatred in
those fearful of witchcraft and loyalty in unexpected quarters. De Lint has
again woven a tale rich in Celtic myth and magic and featuring memorable
characters and tight plotting.
Also a musician, de Lint intends to append some "Tunes from the Kingdoms of the
Green Isles" for "small harp and other melody instruments" to the published
book.Candace Smith.
This is one of my all time favorite books
Terri
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I would like to nominate Into the Green by
Charles
de Lint.It is currently available in mass paperback.
This is what Amazon has to say about it...
Mishawaka_BoldAngharad, a young woman
gifted--as tinker, harper, and witch--with three strains of magic, is
sent, against her own misgivings, on a quest to find, open, and banish
a puzzle box that threatens to destroy the people of the mythical
Middle Earth. As she wanders the Green Isles in search of others with a
touch of witch blood to be allies in her task, Angharad fans hatred in
those fearful of witchcraft and loyalty in unexpected quarters. De Lint
has again woven a tale rich in Celtic myth and magic and featuring
memorable characters and tight plotting.
Also a musician, de Lint intends to append some "Tunes from the
Kingdoms of the
Green Isles" for "small harp and other melody instruments" to the
published book.Candace Smith.
This is one of my all time favorite books
Terri
--============_-1292418522==_ma============--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:56:28 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: J Bocchino/Sarasota Cty
Subject: BDG nomination
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990222104647.018d8cd0@uwec.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Second the nomination for "Grass" by Tepper. It's available from amazon
for $6.50 + $1.90 'special surcharge.'
Quotes from readers on amazon:
"Grass is an exceptionally absorbing and thought-provoking science
fiction/fantasy novel. Tepper creates a world that is wholly believable,
and uses it as a forum to explore contemporary concerns, particularly
those related to religion and humanity's relationship to other species.
Tepper takes up similar questions in "Raising the Stones," a which is
almost--but not quite--a sequel to "Grass." For readers unfamiliar with
the genre, this is an excellent introduction; for those who are confirmed
fans of science fiction and fantasy, Grass is further proof that this
genre allows acute analysis of our own world and its challenges."
"Grass is unquestionably first-rate science fiction: a well-crafted story
of engaging ideas and characters in a vividly imagined universe. The book
is almost worth reading solely for its exceptionally imaginative world and
ecosystems -- easily in the same league as Dune and the Helliconia series.
I'd begun to lose interest in science fiction, but Grass reminded me of
just how engrossing the genre can be. "
JB
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:11:20 -0800
Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Sharon Anderson
Subject: BDG Nominations
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Someone mentioned they would like to nominate Tiptree, but had no idea WHICH
Tiptree. Given the fact that we have had a rather interesting discussion over
The Female Man, I think it might be a great idea to do Houston, Houston, Do
You Read? Only problem is === I've no idea where to get a copy these days.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:54:38 EST
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Tara Tieso
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
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Greetings all~
Nominations:
Patterns~ Pat Cadigan -- list about $14.00, trade ISBN 0312868375
I don't have an online review to offer, but have heard good
stuff about her work. Read sparkling praise of this piece
in a borrowed lesbian review at a retreat. She is offered
as someone who knows (dare I say it?) hard sci fi, and as
a sharp writer who takes risks.
Leap Point ~ Kay Kenyon -- list about $6.00, mass market ISBN
0553576828
Online review: In 2014 . . . circa a rural town with a
dying economy and a way of life that has become
irrelevant. The lure of the Net and virtual-
reality games has replaced the malls and movie theatres. The
hottest game of all is Nir -- short for Nirvana . . .
When Abbey Mccrae's teenage daughter dies mysteriously,
everyone calls it suicide. But Abbey believes it's
murder. . . It goes on to discuss conspiracy and how
"Abbey alone can stop an alien threat that seeks to
consume all of humanity. . ."
Tara's review: Her other book gets good reviews, I remain
interested, but skeptical.
Re-nominations: (from my archives)
Slow River ~ Nicola Griffith -- list about $11.00 trade ISBN
0345395379
Reviews: Oh my, need I say more?
Doomsday Book~ Connie Willis -- list about $6.50 mass market ISBN
0553562783
Online review: Connie Willis labored five years on this
story of a history student in 2048 who is transported to
an English village in the 14th century. She arrives
mistakenly on the eve of the onset of the Black Plague.
Her dealings with a family in 1348 and with her historian
cohorts lead to complications as the book unfolds into a
surprisingly dark, deep conclusion. The book, which won
Hugo and Nebula awards, draws upon Willis' understanding
of the universalities of human nature to explore the
ageless issues of evil, suffering and the indomitable will
of the human spirit.
Tara's review: This is a sweet, simple, complex book with
quite memorable women facing nearly impossible vistas. Not
a high tech book (won't venture into the "hard/soft"
debate. . .whew).
Seconds to:
Donna dear's ~Maximum Light, The Last Hawk
Jennifer's ~ Ring of Swords
and echo all~ Tiptree Cups and Saucers
Warmly,
tara
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:22:35 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Bertina Miller
Subject: Re: bdg nomination
In-Reply-To: <001b01be5e9d$90795620$d1045cc3@softnet>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I second that-especially since I have it and have read it *grin*
Bertina
bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu
On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Yvonne Rowse wrote:
> I'd like to nominate Four Ways to Forgiveness by Ursula LeGuin. There has
> been some discussion about it on the list and I would be fascinated to read
> more.
> It's the book made up of four novellas based on a planet where slavery has
> been standard practice for years. I can't remember the names of the stories
> and the book is buried somewhere but this was the book where my curiosity
> about Hain was finally satisfied. I'd wondered for years how a culture that
> had been around for hundreds of millenia would work.
>
> I'd also like to nominate or second the Tiptree book, Flying Cups and
> Saucers. I have my copy already thanks to donna! It's $18 and well worth it
> and if Four Ways doesn't make it one of the stories is in this book.
>
> Yvonne
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:22:54 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Michael Levy
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 04:21 PM 2/22/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/22/99 8:35:21 PM, Mike Levy wrote:
>
><How about doing one of them? I'd like to nominate the first one, To
>Basilisk Station, in part because the publisher, Baen, has just brought
>out a special $1.99 paperback edition of the book as well as, I believe,
>a not very expensive new hardcover edition.
>>>
>
>Second. I'm an Honor geek. The title is ON Basilisk Station. Probably best
>to start with the first one.
>
>phoebe
>
>
Right, On Basilisk Station, by David Weber
Baen Books ISBN: 0-671-57772-7
The new limited edition is priced
at $1.99 and there are at least two
other editions out there (I think)
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:23:53 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Cynthia Gonsalves
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:32 AM 2/22/99 -0600, Mike Levy wrote:
>
>I haven't participated much in the book talks because usually I have read
>the book before, but too long ago to feel very confident of the facts, so
>I like this idea.
>
>There's been a lot of talk about David Weber's Honor Harrington books.
>How about doing one of them? I'd like to nominate the first one, To
>Basilisk Station, in part because the publisher, Baen, has just brought
>out a special $1.99 paperback edition of the book as well as, I believe,
>a not very expensive new hardcover edition.
>
I'm *insanely* biased about this series (most excellent mind candy, even
with its periodic infodumps), and of course will welcome any discussions of
these books either as part of the BDG or offlist, but I'm wondering if
perhaps The Honor of the Queen (the second book) might actually be a better
choice for discussion, because we see a clash between a pretty egalitarian
society come up against one where there's a definite gender segregation.
Of course, I do recommend reading On Basilisk Station first, since it does
a lot of setup work.
I also am interested in discussing the Paksennarion books by Elizabeth
Moon, the Anita Blake series by Laurell Hamilton, and the LeGuin (Four Ways
to Forgiveness)....whoo-hoo! Lots of nominees I've actually read!
Cynthia
--
"I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit."
-Matt Ruff in Sewer, Gas, and Electric
Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:33:29 MET
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Anthea Hartley Stanton
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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On 22 Feb 99, at 19:59, Bertina Miller wrote:
> Which world is utopian? I at first thought when I read it for the
> first time that there really wasnt a utopia that Russ was trying to
> convey. I thought each world she portrayed was equally stressful.
> Now I think the Utopia isnt Janet's world (which I tried to imagine
> must have been the utopia Russ was seeking, but why then end with
> Jael's world?)...It must be Jael's world... Am I thoroughly off
> trac[k] here?
On the contrary, I think you're exactly right. The Utopia is Jael's world -
NOT ONLY a utopia in which women are strong enough to beat up and kill men
BUT, more importantly, a Utopia where men are destined to exist only as
lobotomized, sub-human sex machines. Sometimes a book has one relationship -
perhaps described in only a few lines - which defines it absolutely. For me,
the Jael-Davy relationship defines _The female man_ even more than Jael's
other characteristics of strength, controlled violence and, paradoxically,
simmering, inchoate rage.
Let's look at it from a reverse point of view: suppose a male character kept a
dehumanized, lobotomised woman as a sex-slave. Regardless of how the woman was
dehumanised, chemically, physically, psychologically or genetically, there's
only one word to describe each and every sex act that the male commits upon
the woman - rape. So why should it be any different if the genders are
reversed?
Jael's Utopia is a world in which women oppress, dehumanise, rape and kill
men. In fact, it's exactly the reverse of the world of Jeannine, Joanna and
(especially) Anna where men oppress, dehumanise, rape and kill women. Utopia
then is a world in which women enjoy perpetual revenge for intolerable
oppression.
>From the discussion to date, it appears that everyone has looked for deeper,
allegorical meanings within _The female man_. The "meanings" people have found
range from the reasonable to Mike[ Stanton]'s somewhat weird reading of the
book as a reflection of the "lavender menace" conflict. I too had a problem
understanding the book because I was looking for a deeper meaning when the
author's meaning was the obvious, surficial one.
It's for this reason that I must warn again against "confusing the singer and
the song" and thus of attributing to an author the opinion one of her
characters expresses in a novel. I cannot believe that Russ herself would like
to live in Jael's world. The problem, I think, is that Russ writes in the
(dated) vocabulary and rhetoric of the 60s/70s which appears ridiculously
extremist to many younger women.
AJ
Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net)
______________________________________
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Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:55:44 0100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: Update BDG nomination
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Wow, when you start ...
I've updated the nomination list (see
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_nom.html). There
are 19 nominations now. They are listed at the end of this email.
Please check whether your nomination is included. There were so many
yesterday, it is quite possible that I've overlooked something.
Some nominations can unfortunately not be accepted:
On 22 Feb 99 Janice Bogstad wrote:
> Hi, I'd like to nominate Six Moon Dance by Sheri Tepper...
> or, alternately, if that is too new, Grass or Family Tree
The paperback of Six Moon Dance does not come out before April. That
should be just in time, but to avoid any problems in a similar
case in the last round we decided not to accept such nominations.
I've included Grass and Family Tree.
On 22 Feb 99 Rudy Leon wrote:
> A question: would something like _By the Light of My Father's
> Eye_ by Alice Walker, be something nominable? If it were in
> paperback, anyway? How about _Mistress of Spices_, by Chitra
> Banerjee Divakaruni, an Indian author, and seems like some
> interesting magical storytelling, rather like _Like Water for
> Chocolate_. And it's in paperback!
Alice Walker's book is not available in paperback at the moment, thus
not feasible. If it was available I would accept it I think. If it
catches the interest of the voters it's fine (that's also my
reasoning for accepting _Mistress of Spices_, both books have some
phantastic elements, haven't they?).
On 22 Feb 99 Yvonne Rowse wrote:
> I'd like to nominate Four Ways to Forgiveness by Ursula LeGuin.
Amazon says about this title: "THIS TITLE IS CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE.
The publisher is out of stock. If you would like to purchase this
title, we recommend that you occasionally check this page to see if
it's been reprinted." Thus, it is not accepted. Better luck next
time.
On 22 Feb 99 Cynthia Gonsalves wrote:
> I also am interested in discussing the Paksennarion books by
> Elizabeth Moon, the Anita Blake series by Laurell Hamilton, and the
> LeGuin (Four Ways to Forgiveness)....whoo-hoo! Lots of nominees
> I've actually read!
Are these nominations? Please specify.
Petra
Nominated books: 19 (23 February)
Eleanor Arnason: Ring of Swords. Tor Books; ISBN: 0312890168,
$13.95 Paperback - 382 pages (January 1995)
Catherine Asaro: Last
Hawk. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 480 pages
(December 1998), St Martins Pr (Trade); ISBN: 0812551109
Catherine Asaro: Primary Inversion. List Price: $5.99, Mass
Market Paperback (May 1996), Tor Books; ISBN: 0812550234
Chitra
Banerjee Divakaruni: The Mistress of Spices. List Price: $12.00,
Paperback - 352 pages, 1 Anchor edition (March 1998), Doubleday;
ISBN: 0385482388
Pat Cadigan: Patterns. list about $14.00, trade
ISBN 0312868375
Charles De Lint: Into the Green. List Price:
$4.99, Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition (January 1995), Tor
Books; ISBN: 0812522494
Molly Gloss: The Dazzle of Day. Tor,
1998. Paperback, ISBN: 031286437X ; List Price: $12.95
Jewelle
Gomez: The Gilda Stories. Publisher: Firebrand ; Publication
Date: Jun 1991; List price: US-$11.95; ISBN 093237994X
Nicola
Griffith: Slow River. list about $11.00 trade ISBN 0345395379
Kay
Kenyon: Leap Point. list about $6.00, mass market ISBN 0553576828
Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain. copyright: 1994, Publisher:
AvoNova, March 1994, ISDN: 0-380-71877-4, This version is
available at Amazon.com
Nancy Kress: Maximum Light. List Price:
$5.99, Mass Market Paperback - 256 pages (January 1999), St
Martins Pr (Trade); ISBN: 0812540379 ;
Pat Murphy: The Falling
Woman. $11.95 Paperback Reprint edition (August 1993), Tor
Books; ISBN: 0312854064
Sheri S. Tepper: The Family Tree.
Paperback (May 1998) Eos (Mass Market); ISBN: 0380791978, List
Price: $6.99
Sheri Tepper: Grass. Mass Market Paperback, ISBN:
0553285653. Amazon gives no list price, only its own price, which
is $6.50 + $1.90 special surcharge (don't ask me why,
availability is o.k.)
David Weber: On Basilisk Station. Mass
Market Paperback (September 1998), Pocket Books; ISBN:
0671577727, List Price: $1.99
David Weber: The Honor of the Queen
(Honor Harrington). List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback -
432 pages Reissue edition (June 1993), Baen Books; ISBN:
0671721720 ;
Connie Willis: The Doomsday Book. Spectra Mass
Market Paperback Reprint edition September 1993 ISBN: 0553562738,
List Price: $6.50
Connie Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog. List
Price: $6.50, Paperback (December 1, 1998), Bantam Books; ISBN:
0553575384
*** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:00:08 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: donna simone
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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> Which world is utopian? I at first thought when I read it for the
> first time that there really wasnt a utopia that Russ was trying to
> convey. >
good question Bertina.
I guess I grow ever more confused about the word Utopian and, I want to
pointedly interject, Dystopian. My understanding is limited, but is best
captured by a few lines from a long ago article by Peter Fitting "The Turn
From Utopia in Recent Feminist Fiction" (that I am able to lay hands on
right this minute). I quote:
"Both utopias and dystopias have a performative function; they are
intended ideally to push the reader to action....in dystopian novels, in
terms of their ability to warn the reader and to push her or him to act on
that knowledge; and, in utopian works, in terms of their effectiveness in
evoking a world in which I would like to live."
My opinion is that the world of Jael is most clearly a Dystopia.
Especially as evidenced by the points made that "each world [Russ]
portrayed was equally stressful" and Jael's "other characteristics of
strength, controlled violence and, paradoxically, simmering, inchoate
rage." Would anyone want to live in a world that leaves one in rage?
I do not believe that every fictional conjecture that "removes men" is
automatically an author's (male or female) idea or creation of a Utopia? I
believe absenting from our explanatory tools the idea of
Dystopia/dystopian from description and analysis of feminist works skews
our perception of what an authors intent may have been. And perhaps leads
to unjust assessments of a writers individual beliefs. I also believe it
limits ones ability to see the _benefits_ in what an author may be trying
to convey to her/his readers.
I personally do not believe that Joanna Russ intended Jael's world, or any
of her four world views, to be anything but the most powerful _Dystopian_
visions. Calling up Fitting again - I believe she is trying to warn _this
Reader_ and push me to act on that knowledge. I have been trying do so for
all these many years since my first reading of The Female Man.
donna
donnaneely@earthlink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:26:59 +1100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Julieanne
Subject: Re: OT- the new terminator
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At 01:47 PM 2/22/99 -0800, Joyce Jones wrote:
>Doesn't this sound like a science fiction novel waiting to be written?
>Well, no I guess it already has been. This idea could have been developed
>on the supermaterialistic planet of Urras in Ursula Le Guin's _The
>Dispossessed_. Just when you think the powers that be can't get any worse,
>they show you that they can.
>
I wasn't going to post on this one - but, I just couldn't leave it alone! LOL
The genetically engineered seed crops have only been commercially available
for a short time, a few years now and only in the USA I believe with some
restrictions. Most are engineered to be resistant to insects etc, and/or
resistant to herbicides. Farmers haven't complained at buying these seeds
because they reduce the costs and maximise yields. But, and its a very,
very BIG BUT -
It is still a very new technology, still 'experimental' in many ways, with
great potential benefits, but also many potential risks/dangers.
The primary couple of problems with these new crops are:
Firstly, there is a danger and risk of "gene-transfer" to the environment,
in that some crop species are closely related to many weed species. If the
herbicide-resistance genes or insect-resistance genes were able to
cross-pollinate with native plants species or worse, weed-species - this
could be a disaster for the environment.
Secondly, the crop itself can turn 'weed-like'. Agricultural scientists
call it a 'feral crop'. The engineered crop keeps re-seeding, and with
nothing left to kill it, the crop species can go 'wild' and being resistant
to everything, it becomes a weed in the 'native' environment. Also, and
probably more likely is that the land upon which it has been sown, can
never be sown with anything else. This is contrary to what is known as GAP
or Good Agricultural Practice which recommends rotation of crop species (to
minimise the risk of pests developing resistance) and regular periods of
allowing fields to lie fallow for a season or two to allow regeneration of
soils.
Thirdly, in the case of insect/disease-resistance mostly, resistant crops
increase the risk of the pests becoming even more resistant and methods of
'pest management' in agriculture have to then become more aggressive, and
more expensive and so on, in a vicious cycle for both farmer and consumer.
All of these risks, and possibly some never thought of, could play havoc
with plant ecology for both our food crops, and for the 'native'
plant-insect ecologies.
One of the biggest risks of any new technology, is Heisenberg's
"Uncertainty Principle". Whilever there is an appreciable risk of disaster,
it is prudent to proceed with caution. In this case, it was considered the
best option to minimise risk, until it can be firmly established that the
danger is negligible or non-existent, was to make the crop seeds
one-generation sterile.
Maybe when these crops have been in use for 5-10 years, and further
research and building of the knowledge base indicates such risks are near
zero - perhaps the need for rendering the sterility can be removed.
But to bring this back to feminism, and sci-fi -
I often think 'hard scientific facts' are so often rarely told in sci-fi
because it is so boring really :) and then I'm reminded of the old saying:
"Don't ever let the facts get in the way of a good story!"
Cheers - Julieanne:)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:06:33 0100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: BDG Nomination
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O.k. I'm convinced. There is a paperback of 'Flying Cups and Saucers'
and there is/will be ways to order it, even for people outside of
North America (the US). We will work out the fine points of this. So,
with great pleasure I nominate
Notkin, Debbie and The Secret Feminist Cabal (Eds.): Flying
Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy.
Edgewood 1st ed, $18.00.
(Aside: Who is The Secret Feminist Cabal?)
This is an anthology of 13 shorter pieces (mostly short stories)
which won the Tiptree Jr. Award or ended up on its short lists.
Tiptree website to the anthology
(http://www.tiptree.org/book/index.html):
"The James Tiptree, Jr. Award has been recognizing science fiction
and fantasy novels and
stories that explore and expand gender
for the past six years. Although the
award itself is given to one or two
works of fiction a year, each jury
also produces a "short list" of
notable works that were considered for
the award.
This first anthology contains almost
all of the short fiction that has
either won or been short-listed in the
first five years of the award."
The content speaks for itself (see below), but I know of at least
two favourable reviews: Nalo Hopkinson in Science Fiction Weekly
(http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue90/books.html#fc) and a review by Don
Webb in TangentOnline (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent/books/fly.htm)
(and I don't know any negative one).
Now comes the part I will make enemies. According to the new BDG rule
a selection of the stories included in the anthology should be given
with the nomination. 13 stories are a bit much to discuss. I've
decided to nominate 8 of them (based on the fact that in our current
BDG selection _A Fisher of the Inland Sea_ there are also 8 stories)
and was it tough to decide. And here they are:
1. Eleanor Arnason, "The Lovers,"
2. James Patrick Kelly, "Chemistry,"
3. Carol Emshwiller, "Venus Rising,"
4. L. Timmel Duchamp, "Motherhood, Etc.,"
5. R. Garcia y Robertson, "The Other Magpie,"
6. Ian McLeod, "Grownups"
7. Delia Sherman, "Young Woman in a Garden,"
8. Ursula K. Le Guin, "The Matter of Seggri,"
The remaining stories are
- Kelley Eskridge, "And Salome Danced,"
- Ursula K. Le Guin, "Forgiveness Day,"
- Ian McDonald, "Some Strange Desire,"
- Graham Joyce and Peter F. Hamilton, "Eat Reecebread,"
- Lisa Tuttle, "Food Man,"
For those, who do not approve my selection: of course, all the other
stories can be discussed as well as any book can always be
discussed on the list (and my selection can also be discussed).
I propose that if the anthology is selected it should be
discussed in August to give people enough time to order it.
Petra
*** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
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Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:38:34 0100
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From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: BDG Nomination
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And another nomination (I promise this is my last one):
Raphael Carter: The Fortunate Fall. List Price: $13.95, Paperback -
288 pages (May 1997), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312863276
Carter just won the Tiptree Award for one of his short stories. _The
Fortunate Fall_ was several times positively reviewed
(see below) and, thus, I am very curious about this writer.
Reviews:
The New York Times Book Review, Tim Hilchey
[Carter] explores the relationship between man
and machine in an increasingly wired world. The
result--by turns terrifying and tender,
frustrating and fulfilling--is a superb example
of speculative fiction.
From Booklist , July 19, 1996
In one of the most brilliant sf debuts in years,
Carter offers an unforgettably original vision of
the news media's future in cyberspace
broadcasting. Maya Andreyeva is a "camera" ; that
is, she is wired with microchips and nanobugs to
transmit her on-the-scene reports, with complete
input from all five senses, to a global audience.
Viewers equipped with "moistdisk" can even read
her thoughts, which is why Maya needs Keishi, a
"screener," who edits out unwanted memories and
feelings. Besides the immediate psychic intimacy
of their relationship, Keishi quickly discovers
Maya's secret: a 10-year memory shield slapped in
place by Net police in punishment for Maya's
previous life of crime. Unfortunately, those same
10 years, into which Maya must eventually delve
somehow, also contain the secrets behind a story
she and Keishi are investigating about a
genocidal massacre that rivals the Holocaust.
Carter's vision of a twenty-fourth century
dominated by intelligence-enhancing microchips
and twisted political ideologies is as
breathtakingly imaginative as the accompanying
story line is gripping. A mind-boggler than ranks
with Gibson's Neuromancer and Stephenson's Snow
Crash as one of the best novels about virtual
reality. Carl Hays Copyright© 1996, American
Library Association. All rights reserved
- Review in Strange Words
(http://www.strangewords.com/archive/fall.html):
"To put it simply, Raphael Carter has a genius for language. Carter
wields a compelling prose style that effectively evokes a grimly
wired cyber-future, then uses it to confront issues of Censorship,
Surveillance, and Sexual Identity. (Visit the author's web site
extolling the virtues of androgyny for a deeper look into "zer"
(his/her) views on this last topic.) The treatment is sophisticated
and powerful, calling to mind totalitarian horrors of the modern age,
without trivialization or paraphrasing. Make no mistake, The
Fortunate Fall is a stunning first novel and Raphael Carter is a
powerful new addition to the science fiction scene."
- Postviews (
http://www.cs.latrobe.edu.au/~agapow/Postviews/past_c-d.html#fortuna
tefall ):
"Part thriller, part romance, "The Fortunate Fall" is an original,
intelligent, poetic and oddly sweet novel. "
Petra
*** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
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Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:58:57 EST
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
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From: Phoebe Wray
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
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In a message dated 2/23/99 5:22:02 AM, Mike wrote:
<>
To which I add this from the jacket cover of my copy:
*- Having made him look a fool she's been exiled to Basilisk Station in
disgrace and set up for ruin by a superior who hates her.
- Her demoralized crew blames her for their ship's humiliating posting to an
out-of-the-way picket station.
- The aborigines of the system's only habitable planet are smoking homicide-
inducing hallucinogens.
- Parliament isn't sure it wants to keep the place; the major local industry
is smuggling; the merchant cartels want her head; the star-conquering, so-
called "Republic" of Haven is Up To Something; and Honor Harrington has a
single, over-age light cruiser with an armament that doesn't work to police
the entire star system.
But the people out to get her have made one mistake. They've made her mad.*
Yes, guess it is space opera, as they say. But a fast-paced adventure and an
intriguing heroine.
best,
phoebe
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:39:11 +1100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Julieanne
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
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Well.. Ummm, at the risk of having too many nominations, I would like to
nominate:
_Remnant Population_ by Elizabeth Moon
Available at Amazon:Mass Market Paperback - 352 pages (March 1997)
Baen Books; ISBN: 0671877704 ;
$US 4.79
Australian retailers: $Aus:11.95 - $Aus13.95
Amazon has a number of customer reviews on-line:
Ursula Le Guin's Review as follows:
"This book does one of the great things novels do: to take an improbable
idea and tell a story about it proving that improbability may be a mere
function of prejudice...Elizabeth Moon's seventy-year-old Ofelia - tough,
kind, wise and unwise, fond of food, tired of foolish people- is one of the
most probable heroes science fiction has ever known. This is a book full of
pleasures."
Synopsis:
Ofelia is an old woman, one of the last living members of the original
first-colony on a frontier planet. Now that the colony had failed, they
were being evacuated by long voyage cryo ships to a new planet. People had
always told Ofelia what to do; for once she was going to do what she
wanted. She refused to get on the cryo ships with the other evacuees,
refused to leave the only world she could call home. And when they finally
came to look for her, she hid-not that authorities looked all that hard for
one crazy old woman. Now Ofelia is alone, content to live her remaining
years with no more demands on her self or her time from other people, the
only human remaining on an abandoned planet.
Then new settlers arrive. At first Ofelia fears they will land to reoccupy
the settlement she has come to think of as hers alone-but they land far
away across the continent. And as Ofelia secretly listens on the
settlement's radio comms, the new settlers are slaughtered within minutes
to the last child, by stone-age aliens no one knew were there. Now it is up
to Ofelia to save the aliens from Earth's wrath.... "
I loved this book, it was so much fun and a wonderful romp of ideas and
'issues' of ageing, feminism and humanism, with a delightful heroine in the
character of Ofelia - and I read it through in one sitting, or lying:)
(since I tend to do most of my reading lying in bed!)
*****************************************************************************
In addition - I would like second the following nominations:
1. Nancy Kress's books, _Maximum Light_ and _Beggars in Spain_
Maximum Light is probably a tad more 'feminist' in its scope though, IMHO.
I just recently finished reading all 3 of her 'Beggars' books of the
trilogy, & _Maximum Light_, and _Oaths and Miracles_ one after the
other...wow, what a "feast" of exciting ideas, and wonderful characters.
2. Catherine Asaro's _The Last Hawk_ - ditto as above.
This was the first book of Catherine's I have ever read, and became totally
besotted! But trying to find others - I was disappointed because older
works of Catherine's are classified as "Hard-to-Find" in Oz, making them
super-expensive, and iffy with regards to delay-times to mail-order thru
specialist retailers (including Amazon - considering currency exchange
rates, and international P&H charges, it roughly equates to quadrupling the
price of the book) Indeed, most of the nominations for the BDG, fall into
this category for me:( Sure is lucky I read most of them when they were
first released, and in many cases I still own a copy:))
3. Sheri S Tepper - just because I like Tepper so much, but unfortunately
similar to Catherine Asaro, older works are "Hard-to-find", or
super-expensive and I have had _Grass_ on my "must read" list for eons! LOL
I will keep searching for a 2nd-hand copy to show up..*sigh*
4. The Tiptree anthology _Cups & Saucers_ (With Sincere Thanks Donna!!!
*hugs*)
Julieanne
jalc@ozemail.com.au
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:06:30 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Pat
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
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On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Jo Ann Rangel wrote:
> I would like to nominate Beggars In Spain by Nancy Kress...primarily
> because the premise of being able to alter the human geneset so that
> certain normal processes of human functioning (as in this case removing the
> need to sleep), fascinates me to no end, and such medical miracles are not
> too far fetched in real life at this time of the century.
>
Yes! I second the nomination.>
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mathews@unm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:09:11 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Pat
Subject: Re: the new terminator
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On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Joyce Jones wrote:
>
> Doesn't this sound like a science fiction novel waiting to be written?
Yes. A post-Toastie in which possible survivors starve to death
because they can't grow a crop next year.
> 1. Meet The New "Terminator"
> Last year, Monsanto in the U.S. and Astra-Zeneca in the U.K. patented
> Terminator
> Seeds. Organizations of small farmers around the world are challenging the
> morality
> of Terminator Technology, which they fear may terminate THEM.
> Poor farmers cannot afford to purchase seeds every growing season. They grow
> 15 to 20
> percent of the world's food, most of it from seeds saved from the previous
> harvest.
> At least 1.4 billion people depend on farm-saved seed for their survival.
>
> To learn more AND help fight the "Terminator," please go to:
> http://www.globalresponse.org
Also check out Native Seeds Search here in Albuquerque. I forget
the address but it's almost certainly on the Web.>
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mathews@unm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:28:31 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Pat
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
In-Reply-To: <19990223073329.6830.qmail@www0h.netaddress.usa.net>
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On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote:
> On the contrary, I think you're exactly right. The Utopia is Jael's world -
> NOT ONLY a utopia in which women are strong enough to beat up and kill men
> BUT, more importantly, a Utopia where men are destined to exist only as
> lobotomized, sub-human sex machines. Sometimes a book has one relationship -
> perhaps described in only a few lines - which defines it absolutely. For me,
> the Jael-Davy relationship defines _The female man_ even more than Jael's
> other characteristics of strength, controlled violence and, paradoxically,
> simmering, inchoate rage.
Isn't the word here DYStopia?
>
> It's for this reason that I must warn again against "confusing the singer and
> the song" and thus of attributing to an author the opinion one of her
> characters expresses in a novel. I cannot believe that Russ herself would like
> to live in Jael's world. The problem, I think, is that Russ writes in the
> (dated) vocabulary and rhetoric of the 60s/70s which appears ridiculously
> extremist to many younger women.
>
The world she was revolting against *was* ridiculously extremist.
Ask anyone who was there.
But I always took it for granted that Janet's world was the
Utopia and the others were distorted reflections. Jael, in particular, is
NOT sane.> >
>
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mathews@unm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:38:15 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Caroline Couture
Subject: Re: Octavia Butler cover (was "hard sf)
In-Reply-To: <199902221404.IAA25443@etsuodt.tamu-commerce.edu> from "Robin
Reid" at Feb 22, 99 08:04:34 am
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> ROBIN replies: Yes, I know the exact book you mean. It was the paperback
> edition of the first novel in the XENOGENESIS series (and I cannot for the
> life of me remember the title, argh). Lilith Iyapo (?) is the protagonist,
> main character, an African American woman, and the cover is NOTORIOUS in
> discussions of Butler's work (Donna Harraway mentioned it early on) to show
> the "prevalence" of assumed "whiteness" in SF because in this case the cover
> art is so TRULY bad in so many ways.
>
The paperback edition of _Dawn_, the first book in Butler's Xenogenesis
series, now has a black woman (Lilith Iyapo I think) on the cover.
The book is an April 1997 reissue.
I guess, hope?, this means that sf is changing.
Take care,
Caroline
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:52:19 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Marsha Valance
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Moon
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Elizabeth Moon's Deeds of Paksennarion trilogy is definitely feminist.
Moon herself served in the armed forces, and it shows. Paks is a tall,
rangy, idealistic country girl, trying to find herself in a feudal world.
I highly recommend this trilogy.
Marsha Valance
Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped
813 West Wells Street
Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436
"That All May Read!"
My opinions are my own--the library wouldn't want them!
>>> Big Yellow Woman 02/22 2:26 PM >>>
Can anyone tell me a little bit about Elizabeth Moon and/or the Paladin
trilogy? Would you consider it feminist? Just saw her name and was
curious. Thanks.
Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:20:22 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Rebecca Springer
Subject: Re: Update BDG nomination
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Here's the skinny on the FOUR WAYS stock situation: I checked our
system, and the mass market is indeed out of stock. This book will be
reprinted or reissued eventually, possibly in trade paperback, but
it's not scheduled yet. I may make a call or two and see if I can
encourage the powers that be in the right direction. If anyone knows
of this book being adopted for a course anywhere, let me know, as that
would probably help my case.
Thanks,
Rebecca
rebecca.springer@harpercollins.com
---Petra Mayerhofer wrote:
>
> On 22 Feb 99 Yvonne Rowse wrote:
> > I'd like to nominate Four Ways to Forgiveness by Ursula LeGuin.
> Amazon says about this title: "THIS TITLE IS CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE.
> The publisher is out of stock. If you would like to purchase this
> title, we recommend that you occasionally check this page to see if
> it's been reprinted." Thus, it is not accepted. Better luck next
> time.
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:25:21 0100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: OT: Non-US members and US books
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990224003911.007bee30@ozemail.com.au>
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On 24 Feb 99 Julieanne wrote:
> This was the first book of Catherine's I have ever read, and became
> totally besotted! But trying to find others - I was disappointed
> because older works of Catherine's are classified as "Hard-to-Find"
> in Oz, making them super-expensive, and iffy with regards to
> delay-times to mail-order thru specialist retailers (including
> Amazon - considering currency exchange rates, and international P&H
> charges, it roughly equates to quadrupling the price of the book)
> Indeed, most of the nominations for the BDG, fall into this category
> for me:( Sure is lucky I read most of them when they were first
> released, and in many cases I still own a copy:))
You have all my sympathies, especially as one and half years ago I
had the same problems. Then I discovered Amazon. I was so happy and
ordered 15 books all at once. And then waited 16 (!!!) weeks for them
to arrive. And then got notified that I had to pay customs because
the shipping value exceeded 50 DEM (about 30 US-$). Custom is
only 7% but I spend 2-3 hours to go to the custom house, wait and pay
(twice, because I received the order in 2 installments). Was I fed
up.
A few months later I discovered a German internet bookstore selling
US-American books, no extra shipping costs, 2-6 weeks till the
books arrive. Perfect bliss . Amazon discovered them,
too, and bought them. That's Amazon.de now (there are other
German internet bookstores but that's so far the only one for US
books, instead some offer Spanish and French books).
However, in the meantime I found that other US-American internet
booksellers offer (much) better shipping options for international
customer, e.g. www.book.com. Book.com charge a percentage of the
value of the book, so at least for books up to about 30 US-$/book
even air mail was significantly cheaper than Amazon's surface
shipping (that was about a year ago for shipping to Europe/Germany).
Perhaps that would help you.
Furthermore, as you certainly know, there is a Amazon.co.uk now.
Perhaps because of the close (?) ties between UK and Australia the
shipping costs are lower than from the US?
Petra
P.S.: You may wonder about German translations. I prefer to read
books in the original (as long as it is English). And not all books
are translated to German. And then it takes some time, of course,
differently depending on the book: the German translation of _The
Moon and the Sun_ came out last December, _Remnant Population_ last
fall and _Slow River_ is scheduled for next fall.
*** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:33:18 -0500
Reply-To: releon@syr.edu
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Rudy Leon
Organization: Syracuse University
Subject: Re: OT- the new terminator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990223222659.007b61d0@ozemail.com.au>
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The seeds probably won't get all that great a foothold, because the
EU has held *quite* firm on its refusal to import any food products
which have been genetically altered. This stance would require
something akin to the BGH labelling the USDA fought so hard to
prevent, and would not support for this instance.
If people are interested in the fight against genetically altered food
products, I'm the point person for my local food co-op on the
organics fight, which this plays a big part in. Contact me off list.
Rudy Leon
PhD student
Dept. of Religion
Syracuse University
releon@syr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:26:23 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: "Janice E. Dawley"
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote:
> The Utopia is Jael's world - NOT ONLY a utopia in which women are
> strong enough to beat up and kill men BUT, more importantly, a
> Utopia where men are destined to exist only as lobotomized,
> sub-human sex machines. Sometimes a book has one relationship -
> perhaps described in only a few lines - which defines it absolutely.
> For me, the Jael-Davy relationship defines _The female man_ even
> more than Jael's other characteristics of strength, controlled
> violence and, paradoxically, simmering, inchoate rage.
> Jael's Utopia is a world in which women oppress, dehumanise, rape
> and kill men. In fact, it's exactly the reverse of the world of
> Jeannine, Joanna and (especially) Anna where men oppress, dehumanise,
> rape and kill women. Utopia then is a world in which women enjoy
> perpetual revenge for intolerable oppression.
And Jael's utopia is whose utopia? Not mine. Not Russ's either I am
willing to bet. I found myself less affected by Jael than any of the
other Js. The Davy section, especially, seemed like a simple rhetorical
device -- the old "reversal unmasks the double-standard" trick. I found
the scene itself a bit icky, but not very involving in either a vengeful
or enraging way. That's just me.
I was much more intrigued by Whileaway. That, to me, was the utopia.
Several others have remarked that they found it to be a DYStopia, but I
still can't understand why. Sure, they have duels... at least they don't
go to war against one another. At one point Janet says they work all the
time, but later it is revealed that the work week is 16 hours long. (A
nice little statement about how people can get used to almost anything
-- we complain about 40-hour work weeks --at least I do!-- but before
the labor unions fought for and won the 40-hour work week in the United
States people could be required to work twice as many.) Despite work
assignments there seems to be ample personal freedom. The environment is
in good shape. What am I missing?
Joanna and Laura were the characters I identified with most closely.
Jeannine was alien to me, though I have certainly known women like her.
I think Russ made an interesting point by having Jeannine join forces
with Jael at the end. It jibes with my observation that women who
identify with the patriarchal power structure are more likely to engage
in "reverse sexism" than feminist women. (I put that term in quotes
because I agree with Robin Reid that in the context of the existing
power structure a simple reversal is not possible.)
Part of the genius of Russ's book is that it is stuffed with so
many alternative viewpoints and framings of reality that people can pull
so many meanings out of it. I imagine Russ spreading it before her
readers like a smorgasbord, waiting to see who will pick what.
>The problem, I think, is that Russ writes in the (dated) vocabulary
>and rhetoric of the 60s/70s which appears ridiculously extremist to
>many younger women.
I have a feeling that it appeared ridiculously extremist to many women
in the 60s/70s also. But now the book, by virtue of age, can be
dismissed as "dated" AS WELL AS "strident", "making a big deal out of
nothing", "filled with rage", etc. Personally, I see nothing in *The
Female Man* that dates it enough to lessen its impact, and I am
definitely a "younger woman" (age 29) -- Joanna Russ is just about my
mother's age.
--
Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT
http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/
Listening to: Mercury Rev -- Deserter's Songs
"Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:46:53 MET
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Anthea Hartley Stanton
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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On 23 Feb 99, at 7:28, Pat wrote:
> Isn't the word here DYStopia?
I think it's obvious that I meant "Utopia" in the sense of JAEL'S ideal world.
Jael, I believe, actually enjoyed her world especially when she considered the
prospect of ultimate victory (and ultimate revenge). "Utopia" is very much a
personal thing - I *personally* regard both Jael's world and Janet's Whileaway
as DYStopias.
> The world she was revolting against *was* ridiculously extremist.
> Ask anyone who was there.
Again "extremist" is another thing that is very much in the eye of the
beholder. I wasn't there (born 1967), the women I know and *trust* who were
there didn't think it was a "ridiculously extremist" world and the books
describing the era were written too close to the time to be objective. All I
said and meant was something that is common cause (and described, for example,
in _Time_ last year).
> But I always took it for granted that Janet's world was the
> Utopia and the others were distorted reflections. Jael, in particular, is
> NOT sane.>
I did too at first; clearly Whileaway would seem to be the perfect world that
a radical like Russ would invent, given the time the book was written and of
the "lavender menace" struggle of the 60s/70s. But I simply couldn't make
sense of the book from that perspective; taking Jael's world as the projected
Utopia, made sense immediately I thought of it.
Your comment that Jael was insane is, I think, wrong in that sanity is a
relative thing. In terms of her world and of the pressures on her, Jael was
eminently sane - because Jael was perfectly adapted to her world and insanity
necessarily includes an inability to deal with "reality". Where she appear
insane is on Whileaway and in Jeannine/Joanna's world - and even the last is
doubtful if you consider the empathy that Jael's violence has aroused here.
AJ
Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net)
________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:55:30 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Claudia Mastroianni
Subject: BDG Nomination/second
To give fuller information for books I saw nominated recently:
To Say Nothing of the Dog, Connie Willis. Paperback (December 1, 1998).
Bantam Books, ISBN 0553575384, $6.50.
I would love to have the BDG discuss this book. It's not what I think
of as traditional science fiction... it combines the wit and setting
of a Dorothy Parker mystery with well-thought-out time travel (and I'm
a stickler for time travel being done *rationally* if it's to be done
at all). I found it immensely entertaining.
The Kin of Ata are Waiting for You, Dorothy Bryant. Paperback reprint
(April 1997). Random House, ISBN 0679778438, $11.95.
Did we in fact determine, after last time, to sort votes by author and
take the most popular work of a winning author? I'm sure I'm not the
only one who'd rather discuss some Connie Willis, any Connie Willis,
than have the vote split five ways. :)
I'd be interested in nominating one of the Datlow/Windling collections
of fairy tales (new tales and retellings of classics), but I don't have
mine to hand to refer to. If anyone else likes the idea and would like
to suggest a particular collection or few stories, please do.
Claudia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:23:00 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah
Subject: Re: BDG Nomination/second
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 99 12:55:30 EST."
<199902231755.MAA25240@login1.fas.harvard.edu>
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>Did we in fact determine, after last time, to sort votes by author and
>take the most popular work of a winning author? I'm sure I'm not the
>only one who'd rather discuss some Connie Willis, any Connie Willis,
>than have the vote split five ways.
I don't remember if we made a decision, but I do like this idea. As long as
it's not Light Raid. :)
jessie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:38:57 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Jane Franklin
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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I don't really see Whileaway as a Utopia...when I think of Utopias, I
think of, say, Ecotopia or Woman on the Edge of Time, or even such
classical Utopias as, well, Moore's Utopia. That is, places where
problems are not strutural, but rather result from "human nature" and are
much reduced in number. Like in Woman on the Edge of Time, where everyone
is happy happy almost all the time, except for the conflicted relationship
between the artist guys.
Too, "Utopia" seems to be a rather pejorative word in our modern and
soured culture. If you're writing a Utopia, you're writing something
essentially idealistic, pie-in-the-sky, one dimensional. Something that
is easy to knock down by pointing to one flaw in it. Like one of the
classical Utopias (I forget which one) involves slavery. Since it's
supposed to be, um, utopian, as soon as slavery is unacceptable to us
philosophically and morally, then that utopia pretty much falls apart.
Whileaway, as we've said, has some pretty undesireable features, things I
think Russ does not intend us to approve of. Like when Joanna goes into
the mountains to track down that older woman. That is structural. It's
not like the "human nature" problems of duels, where people choose to get
all het up and shoot each other. It's about how society as a whole
enforces its rules, consciously and using sanctioned force.
I think Russ has a persistant tragic sensibility that is as much
literary/philosophical as it is political. None of her futures (or pasts,
for that matter) are happy, even the nice ones. Consider the several
stories where everyone is really really smart, except for a few people who
are mistakes and who get bored and unhappy because their intelligence is
too limited for them to solve their problems. It would seem to me rather
extraordinary if Russ both had this tragic sense about human potential and
intelligence AND at the same time believed that Whileaway was a real
utopia which one could create by killing people off.
Another thing, or rather two things in one: what is UP with this constant
denunciation of women writers as "too strident"? In a feminist book
discussion group, no less?!? Are we really truly so afraid of offending
men that we must police our science fiction writers and denounce them if
they're not nice enough?/!? I don't know about you, but I still see many
of the problems Russ describes all around me, on the activist left yet.
And I'm a young woman, and not an especially theorized feminist, and
Russ's stridency doesn't bother me.
In fact, I applaud it, because it brings something to the surface: the
contempt that a lot of women really do feel for men. I work in an office
that's nearly all women, and, well, the conversations one hears. Of
course, we would never admit that we really have contempt for men, that
there is de facto hatred...we of course love men and wouldn't want to hurt
their feelings. Feminist anger is nothing on everyday, nonfeminist
contempt. I think that by writing as she does, Russ enables us to name
and analyze--and ultimately integrate and make use of--anger. Russ
enables us to be angry and place it in a feminist, praxis-oriented
framework. An awful lot of women are angry at a lot of men, and until
this is acknowledged, it won't go away.
And...one thing I've noticed in myself is what one might call "centrist
drift". As I have become older (24 at the moment) I find myself
constantly underestimating the radicalness of the young, their theoretical
sophistication, etc. Also assuming that because I myself am past a
certain point politically then other people should be too. If I, for
example, have discussed the nature and constructedness of culture, then
the movement needs to do something new, just for me. I think it's
waaaayyy too easy to assume that "being strident" will alienate younger
women. Long activist experience has told me, too, that soft-pedalling
your own position to get over with people always backfires. It's a form
of contempt, and people view it as dishonest.
Long live stridency, at least as far as I'm concerned.
And you know what? I'm not going to add anything about how I have male
friends, or men I really like, or a boyfriend, and how they're the
exception. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. That's not germane to the
discussion, and is in fact reminiscent of __although explicitly NOT
equivalent or analogous to__the white liberal remark that "some of my best
friends are black"...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:51:40 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Rebecca Springer
Subject: Re: BDG Nomination/second
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Claudia Mastroianni recently compared TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG to "a
Dorothy Parker mystery." I've read both TO SAY NOTHING and a few
Dorothy Parker stories, and the comparison stumped me. Do you perhaps
me Dorothy _Sayers_?
FWIW, I'll chime in on the recommendation of TO SAY NOTHING. It may
seem a bit fluffy on first read, but I found it utterly charming, with
a few interesting metafictional tricks up its sleeve.
Rebecca
rebecca.springer@harpercollins.com libraryhead@yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:25:31 -0800
Reply-To: Carol Tilley
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Carol Tilley
Subject: (FWD)Re: Feminist Discussion of Ayn Rand
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FYI(fwd)
>
>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:06:45 -0500
>From: "Chris Sciabarra"
>To: philosophy of objectivism
>Subject: Reminder - Feminist Discussion
>
>This is just a reminder to those who have inquired about the upcoming
>discussion of FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS OF AYN RAND. The book will be
>discussed over a four month period in a moderated, structured setting on
the
>Randian Feminism list. The moderators are Thomas Gramstad and Bryan
>Register. Those who wish to know more about the discussion, which
commences
>on March 1, 1999 (one week from today), should check out further
information
>at:
>http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/fem/femdis.htm
>
>Chris
>======================================================
>Chris Matthew Sciabarra, Visiting Scholar
>Faculty of Arts and Science
>New York University Department of Politics
>715 Broadway, 4th floor
>New York, New York 10003-6806
>Email: cms10@is2.nyu.edu
>Dialectics and Liberty Site: http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra
>FEMINIST INTERPRETATIONS OF AYN RAND
> Penn State Press - Just Published
> On the 94th anniversary of Rand's Birth - Feb. 2, 1999:
> http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/femstart.htm
>======================================================
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:18:23 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: "Candioglos, Sandy"
Subject: Re: Update BDG nomination
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Can we still nominate? If we can, I'd like to nominate "A Fisherman of the
Inland Sea" by LeGuin in its place.
List Price: $4.99
Amazon price: $3.99 (plus shipping)
Harper Mass Market Paperbacks
ISBN: 0061054917
Synopsis: The only SF writer to win the National Book Award, not to
mention the
Hugo, Nebula and World Fantasy awards, Ursula K. Le
Guin has
created a profound and transformational literature.
These stories range
from the everyday to the outer limits of experience,
where the quantum
uncertainties of space and time are resolved only in
the depths of the
human heart. HC: HarperPrism.
To read customer reviews on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061054917/qid=919815185/sr=1-5/002-7
916870-5736808
I was fascinated by the protrayal of a very different kind of "marriage"
system in the last story. They are separate stories, but they tie together.
-Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: Rebecca Springer [mailto:libraryhead@YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:20 AM
To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Update BDG nomination
Here's the skinny on the FOUR WAYS stock situation: I checked our
system, and the mass market is indeed out of stock. This book will be
reprinted or reissued eventually, possibly in trade paperback, but
it's not scheduled yet. I may make a call or two and see if I can
encourage the powers that be in the right direction. If anyone knows
of this book being adopted for a course anywhere, let me know, as that
would probably help my case.
Thanks,
Rebecca
rebecca.springer@harpercollins.com
---Petra Mayerhofer wrote:
>
> On 22 Feb 99 Yvonne Rowse wrote:
> > I'd like to nominate Four Ways to Forgiveness by Ursula LeGuin.
> Amazon says about this title: "THIS TITLE IS CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE.
> The publisher is out of stock. If you would like to purchase this
> title, we recommend that you occasionally check this page to see if
> it's been reprinted." Thus, it is not accepted. Better luck next
> time.
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:15:18 +0000
Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: geminiwalker
Organization: Gemini Walker Ink
Subject: Re: PMS: The Way We Talk
In-Reply-To: <813d013e.36d0bb52@aol.com>
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> In a message dated 2/20/99 5:23:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes:
>
> > Physical symptoms include 'bloating' because of fluid retention (swelling
> > ankles, and/or tummy&pelvis); raised blood pressure; and insomnia and
> > night-sweats. All of which could make anyone feel damn cranky and
> > irritable, or depressed, if they haven't been able to sleep for 3 nights
> > straight, and their swollen ankles hurt.
> >
>
>
> As an added comment to this. There is a disease called fibromyalgia which is
> a sleep disorder. A certain part of the sleep cycle is disrupted in people
> who have this disease. They complain of many different ailments, the most
> notable are depression, and pain all over their body. When researchers took
> "normal" people and deprived them of the same sleep cycle that fibromyalgia
> sufferers have disrupted, the result was that those "normal" people began to
> exhibit the same symptoms. The disruption of the sleep cycle can have serious
> side effects.
>
> Tanya
>
>
Yeah, no kidding! It is one of the most insidious
forms of torture and weapons utilized in the
implementation of mind control, and is one of the
most hideous weapons used against battered women
by their batterers ... having been there myself.
...geminiwalker
chuard@earthlink.net
To learn more about me, go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard
updated 2/22/99
ICQ #27240345
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:42:30 +0000
Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: geminiwalker
Organization: Gemini Walker Ink
Subject: BDG Nomination
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I would also like to nominate, since I happen to have it handy,
Ursula LeGuin's Planet of Exile:
All her life Rolery had heard peculiar talk about the "farborn," the
"false-men" the other-worlders who had lived on her world for
centuries. She hadn't believed the tales ... until the first time she
saw the aliens' city.
It was disturbingly different from the winter shelter her own
people were building nearby. Strangest of all was the long,
wide causeway linking the city with what appeared to be a huge,
black fortress.
Silent, unearthly, that island of ebony stone was a place most
true-humans would avoid. But that day, urged on by an alien
voice that suddenly spoke her mind, Rolery became the first of
her people to enter the farborns' realm. She would not be the last.
(from the jacket cover)
...geminiwalker
chuard@earthlink.net
To learn more about me, go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard
updated 2/22/99
ICQ #27240345
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:15:18 +0000
Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
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From: geminiwalker
Organization: Gemini Walker Ink
Subject: BDG Nomination
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I had an email buddy recommend Tannith Lee to me, and recently
purchased Red Unicorn, so I would like to nominate that for
discussion.
>From the back cover:
The young wanderer Tantaquil can mend anything that is broken
-- except her own heart. With her beloved engaged to another,
she sadly returns home to her sorcerous mother. But life never
stops for a broken heart. Soon, caught up in her mother's magic,
Tanaquil and her mischievous familiar -- a literal pet peeve --
find themselves in a parallel world where she meets Tanakil,
a mirror-image princess with murder on her mind.
Finally Tannith Lee returns to her epic fantasy of magical alternate
worlds and the enchanting unicorns that travel between them.
This is Lee at her best" -- Asimov's Science Fiction
...geminiwalker
chuard@earthlink.net
To learn more about me, go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard
updated 2/22/99
ICQ #27240345
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:42:30 +0000
Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
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From: geminiwalker
Organization: Gemini Walker Ink
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
In-Reply-To: <19990223073329.6830.qmail@www0h.netaddress.usa.net>
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.
>
> Let's look at it from a reverse point of view: suppose a male character kept a
> dehumanized, lobotomised woman as a sex-slave. Regardless of how the woman was
> dehumanised, chemically, physically, psychologically or genetically, there's
> only one word to describe each and every sex act that the male commits upon
> the woman - rape. So why should it be any different if the genders are
> reversed?
>
Funny, I didn't see it that way, as Davy *is* a machine.
He does not appear to have any feelings at all, albeit
whatever sexio/physical ones that lead him to the
ejaculate he has. What, then, is the difference between
him and a vibrator (which, frankly, I would prefer)?
Are we raping every time we use a vibrator, because
the vibrator has no choice, and we have all the
control?
...geminiwalker
chuard@earthlink.net
To learn more about me, go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard
updated 2/22/99
ICQ #27240345
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:42:30 +0000
Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: geminiwalker
Organization: Gemini Walker Ink
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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> On 21 Feb 99, at 17:01, Bertina Miller wrote:
>
> > Does Jael hate men? This is what I am wondering a
> > bout the Jael character.She kills a man who attacks
> > her, who doesnt allow her to say "no" to his advances.
> > I really dont believe she hates men. I think she is the most
> > fascinating character that goes beyond the 70s attitudes
> > and is futuristic in that she clearly has what many women
> > still dont have. Autonomy from men. Is that a hatred of men?
>
> If a male character believed that all women should either be killed or
> lobotomised into sex- and baby-machines, we'd have no hesitation in calling
> him a "woman hater". We'd think no differently if the character had only one
> lobotomized sex-machine who he treated with the affection we'd give to a cat.
> The husbands in _The Stepford Wives_ who "loved" but also lobotomised their
> wives chemically are clearly "women haters" as - in a different context of
> mutilation - are the real-life monsters that Mary Daly describes so eloquently
> in _Gynecology, the Metaethics of Radical Feminism_.
>
> So, in the reverse case, why should we blench at calling Jael a "man-hater"?
> We have to accept Jael as she is, not use mental gymnastics to twist her into
> a "nice girl".
>
>
>
>
> AJ
> Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net).
But she didn't kill, or even advocate killing, all men.
She just didn't feel bad, at all, for killing one who
violently violated her personal space after repeated
protestations. In fact, she enjoyed it. That does
not mean she thinks all men should be dead. She
simply reserves, for herself, the right not to
have to interact with them beyond her own wishes
to do so. I realize, in our culture, that is considered
disloyal, but I think it is an option that should
exist and be carefully guarded.
...geminiwalker
chuard@earthlink.net
To learn more about me, go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard
updated 2/22/99
ICQ #27240345
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:03:13 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Bertina Miller
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
In-Reply-To: <19990223073329.6830.qmail@www0h.netaddress.usa.net>
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Did I misinterpret something or isnt the men on Jael's planet robots? I
think that is what she meant when she discussed the difference between a
man lobotomized and a machine-she meant that the men on her planet are
robots. Joanne was horrified of the prospect of robots being lovers-I
think Jael thought saying the "men" were lobotomized would have been
better than telling the Js that the men were in fact robots. I think that
is why Jannine wasnt horrified about Jael sleeping with a robot, it would
be better than sleeping with a lobotomized man.
I still dont get the superficial idea I think it isnt meant to be
profound, but I dont think it is superficial. The story's meaning is one
of character study on possible futures and/or alternative feminist
landscapes. How is that superficial?
Bertina
bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote:
> On 22 Feb 99, at 19:59, Bertina Miller wrote:
>
> > Which world is utopian? I at first thought when I read it for the
> > first time that there really wasnt a utopia that Russ was trying to
> > convey. I thought each world she portrayed was equally stressful.
> > Now I think the Utopia isnt Janet's world (which I tried to imagine
> > must have been the utopia Russ was seeking, but why then end with
> > Jael's world?)...It must be Jael's world... Am I thoroughly off
> > trac[k] here?
>
> On the contrary, I think you're exactly right. The Utopia is Jael's world -
> NOT ONLY a utopia in which women are strong enough to beat up and kill men
> BUT, more importantly, a Utopia where men are destined to exist only as
> lobotomized, sub-human sex machines. Sometimes a book has one relationship -
> perhaps described in only a few lines - which defines it absolutely. For me,
> the Jael-Davy relationship defines _The female man_ even more than Jael's
> other characteristics of strength, controlled violence and, paradoxically,
(snip for space)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:25:16 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joyce Jones
Subject: : Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
Kathleen writes:
>One thing that struck me on this reading of The Female Man was the
>connection of Anna, the "changed" wife of the Big Boss, with Davy.
>Placed as "she" is immediately before Davy is introduced, she presents a
>mirror-image of the human/object duality that stands out so sharply when
>the human is a woman and the object is male.
(snip)
>I think this was cleverly done: to take the normal, everyday, accepted
>inhumanity of making women into life-long servants of men, show how taken
>for granted it is, and then allow a woman a little of that power to
>satisfy the same needs without negotiation, without recognition of the
>Other's humanity, and let the shock this generates tell its own story.
What a great analysis, one that hadn't even occurred to me. You did fail to
mention one difference: Jael made sure Davy had an orgasm, even though he
was just an object.
Joyce
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:44:03 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Big Yellow Woman
Subject: Re: Update BDG nomination
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Seems like you missed my nomination, Petra, so here it is again:
I nominate:
>
> Dorothy Bryant, _The Kin of Ata Are Waiting For You_ isbn0679778438
> Random House $11.95 1997 reprint (originally published 1971
>
> >From a reader reveiw at Amazon (since I haven't read it in awhile and
> the synopses at Amazon are poor):
>
> "Imagine waking from an car accident, injured badly - but healed. By
> who? Mysterious shamans who move in shadows, showing you all the
> love and sympathy you've lacked in your hollow life. Imagine finally
> seeing their faces. Beautiful people of all races and mixes between,
> speaking a foreign language with their lips, but a universal language
> with their smiles. Imagine then being well enough to see your
> surroundings - see that while your accident occured in a desert, you are
> now surrounded by water! This is the genesis of ATA, and by the time you
> close the book you will find your heart similarly healed - and when you
> are able, you will see that your surroundings are not what they once
> were. You only have to want it and believe in it."
>
> Though I regret the warm and fuzzy tone of the above, I must agree in
> spirit and add that this book is one I constantly collect and give to
> friends. It involves more than a "spiritual" journey, but a very
> practical one in which the protagonist is transported to a subsistence
> society in which dreams are used to guide behavior and culture.
>
> I think it is also an important book in terms of 70's feminist science
> fiction in that it takes a somewhat different approach to alternative
> cultures than such novels as Female Man and Woman on the Edge of Time.
> The fact that it can still generate enough interest to be reprinted
> after 26 years is a great indication of the quality of this novel.
>
> I've attached the Amazon.com page for any who want it. Susan
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679778438/qid=919709948/sr=1-1/002-4643256-8709847
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:21:50 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joyce Jones
Subject: BDG Nominations
I'd like to second a couple of nominations and make a couple of my own.
Seconding:
Mistress of Spices sounds fascinating. I very much like reading about
healing, using spice or herbs is becoming the way to restore health. I'd
like to read this take on the idea and would like discussing it on the list.
Also, a book by an Indian author would be an interesting change.
The Kin Of Alta Are Waiting--a book about dreams and a spiritual journey.
This sounds like one that would promote discussion.
Anything by Catherine Asaro. After the discussion we've had about hard vs
soft science fiction I think we need to take a look as the "real" stuff.
Nominating:
Earthsong by Suzette Haden Elgin
On a future Earth where economic survival depends on communication and trade
with alien species, linguistics has taken on a power and meaning unknown to
us today. In this world thirteen families of brilliant, genetically bred
linguists, trained from birth in nonhuman language, hold the key to Earth's
economic survival because only they can provide translations during alien
trade summits.
Yet this is also a world where the 25th Amendment, which denies women equal
rights, has plunged civilization into a repressive dark age. Women are once
again considered property--useful only for procreation and menial chores.
Only the women of the Linguist Lines, whose talents are considered too
valuable to waste, have ever been allowed to do anything beyond basic
domestic work.
But when aliens suddenly abandon Earth, taking their technology with them,
and plunging the Earth into economic disaster, can the women of the Linguist
Lines, who have long planned for the liberation of their sex, now seize the
power to save their world?
-------------------------------
Anything by Octavia Butler
Dawn
Reviews
Science Fiction and Fantasy Editor's Recommended Book
In a world devastated by nuclear war with humanity on the edge of
extinction, aliens finally make contact. They rescue those humans they can,
keeping most survivors in suspended animation while the aliens begin the
slow process of rehabilitating the planet. When Lilith Iyapo is "awakened,"
she finds that she has been chosen to revive her fellow humans in small
groups by first preparing them to meet the utterly terrifying aliens, then
training them to survive on the wilderness that the planet has become. But
the aliens cannot help humanity without altering it forever. Bonded to the
aliens in ways no human has ever known, Lilith tries to fight them even as
her own species comes to fear and loathe her. A stunning story of invasion
and alien contact by one of science fiction's finest writers.
Synopsis
Known for her African-American feminist perspective, the author presents the
first installment of a trilogy exploring the death of the earth as we know
it and the advent of interbreeding between humans and extraterrestrials.
Reissue.
-----------------------------------------------------
Wildseed
Synopsis
Back in print after five years, this is award-winning Octavia Butler's
thrilling paternist novel about a reincarnate and a healer who travel
together through exotic lands and centuries of time. Advertising in Locus,
Science Fiction Chronicle and Amazing. Reissue.
Synopsis
Doro is an entity who changes bodies like clothes, killing his hosts by
reflex--or design. He fears no one--until he meets Anyanwu. Anyanwu has also
died many times. She can absorb bullets and make medicine with a kiss, give
birth to tribes, nurture and heal, and savage anyone who threatens those she
loves. She fears no one--until she meets Doro. From African jungles to the
colonies of America, Doro and Anyanwu weave together a pattern of destiny
that not even immortals can imagine
----------------------------------------------------
Joyce
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:35:21 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Bertina Miller
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
In-Reply-To:
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Hey you may be right-they all are dystopias. Clearly women cannot have a
utopia (at least in the "Female Man" worlds) - though I thought maybe
janets world was meant to be one, though I didnt and still dont think it
is one. I dont however find Jael's world frightening or Jael being insane.
Am I "Jeannine?" She was the one person Jael said was the most intelligent
and she seemed to like Jael's world.
Bertina
bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Pat wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote:
>
> > On the contrary, I think you're exactly right. The Utopia is Jael's world -
> > NOT ONLY a utopia in which women are strong enough to beat up and kill men
> > BUT, more importantly, a Utopia where men are destined to exist only as
> > lobotomized, sub-human sex machines. Sometimes a book has one relationship -
> > perhaps described in only a few lines - which defines it absolutely. For me,
> > the Jael-Davy relationship defines _The female man_ even more than Jael's
> > other characteristics of strength, controlled violence and, paradoxically,
> > simmering, inchoate rage.
>
> Isn't the word here DYStopia?
> >
> > It's for this reason that I must warn again against "confusing the singer and
> > the song" and thus of attributing to an author the opinion one of her
> > characters expresses in a novel. I cannot believe that Russ herself would like
> > to live in Jael's world. The problem, I think, is that Russ writes in the
> > (dated) vocabulary and rhetoric of the 60s/70s which appears ridiculously
> > extremist to many younger women.
> >
> The world she was revolting against *was* ridiculously extremist.
> Ask anyone who was there.
> But I always took it for granted that Janet's world was the
> Utopia and the others were distorted reflections. Jael, in particular, is
> NOT sane.> >
> >
> Patricia (Pat) Mathews
> mathews@unm.edu
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:45:55 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Bertina Miller
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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Hey I was born in 1967 too! I am glad I wasnt the only one out there who
had a problem with all the worlds.
Bertina
bmiller@medmail.mcg.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 05:33:37 MET
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Anthea Hartley Stanton
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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On 23 Feb 99, at 12:26, Janice E. Dawley wrote:
> I was much more intrigued by Whileaway. That, to me,
> was the utopia. Several others have remarked that
> they found it to be a DYStopia, but I still can't
> understand why. Sure, they have duels...
at least they don't go to war against one another.
> At one point Janet says they work all the
> time, but later it is revealed that the work week
is 16 hours long. [snip] Despite work assignments
> there seems to be ample personal freedom. The environment
> is in good shape. What am I missing?
These comments are exactly why *I* think Janet's world is a dystopia (apart
from the obvious reason that is). As I've hinted elsewhere, I don't think that
this is Russ' ideal world either - however seductive it might be to think that
Whileaway would be a Utopia for a "radical, socialist, lesbian feminist".
Three things - taken in the context of her other writing - convince me of
this.
The first is "duels" - which I find completely out of sync with Russ' thinking
in her apologia _What we are fighting for..._. The most insistent sub-theme
(in my opinion) in Russ' corpus is the need for ALL women to work together
both as individuals and as groups of differing sexuality etc but otherwise
similar ideals. As Russ describes it, Whileaway is in some ways a society
dominated by "bullygirls" preying on weaker members of society - something
that would clearly be anathema to her.
The second which follows on from "duels", is the state-sanctioned violence and
arbitrariness in the way in which society's demands are brought home to
dissenters. There's much of Orwell's "Big brother" in the rulers of Whileaway
- even the hint of Newspeak.
The third is the sheer blandness of Whileaway which guaranteed to drive any
intelligent, ambitious, hardworking woman straight up the wall. It's almost a
parody of Thoreu's _Walden_. Whileaway offers no challenges, permits no
indivdual achievement other than in narrowly defined lines and the only
personal freedom it allows is the freedom to "shut up and conform". I think
Whileaway's women live lives of "monotonous languor", of quiet desperation and
when they die, it's as if they've never been (notwithstanding Russ' pious
hints to the contrary). Again totally incompatible with Russ as a person and a
writer.
All of the worlds are far deeply flawed to be Utopias, other than to some of
their equally flawed inhabitants - which I think is Russ' point.
> I have a feeling that it appeared ridiculously
> extremist to many women in the 60s/70s also. But
> now the book, by virtue of age, can be dismissed as
> "dated" AS WELL AS "strident", "making a big deal
> out of nothing", "filled with rage", etc. Personally,
> I see nothing in *The Female Man* that dates
> it enough to lessen its impact, and I am definitely
> a "younger woman" (age 29) -- Joanna Russ is just
> about my mother's age.
Someone commented to me offlist that _The female man_ was dated the day it was
published. I think that's cruelly unfair but contains more than a grain of
truth. As I see it, the "strident", "making a big deal out of nothing" and
"rage" are precisely those things that date it and, more importantly, reduce
its impact. Many, perhaps most, younger women read it and are immediately
repelled the rage that the book projects. They see, for example, the Jael
connection, Davy, even the thumb episode, are revolted and Russ' message is
lost.
Russ was writing for a different generation, in a time (as she saw it) of
struggle so she used the rhetoric of combat which her audience would know and
be moved by. In some ways, I'm reminded of World War II propaganda; we laugh
at its excesses now but at the time the overwhelming mass of people found it
stirring.
AJ
Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net)
____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:01:03 -0500
Reply-To: releon@syr.edu
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Rudy Leon
Organization: Syracuse University
Subject: Re: BDG Nominations
In-Reply-To: <005e01be5fa4$f94868a0$e9c9fcd0@default>
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On 23 Feb 99, , Joyce Jones wrote:
> Nominating:
> Earthsong by Suzette Haden Elgin
IS this the third book in the trilogy? If so, and I hope Suzette isn't
onlist anymore, let's just say that it utterly fails to live up to the
level of readability of the first two... If it's the second one ,it was
pretty good,and a should read!
Someone just nominated Fisher of the Inland Sea....aren't we
reading that in a few days? If not, I've been readin the wrong book...
Rudy Leon
PhD student
Dept. of Religion
Syracuse University
releon@syr.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:18:54 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Michael Marc Levy
Subject: Re: BDG Nomination
In-Reply-To: <199902231206.NAA04936@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Petra Mayerhofer wrote:
>
> Notkin, Debbie and The Secret Feminist Cabal (Eds.): Flying
> Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy.
> Edgewood 1st ed, $18.00.
>
> (Aside: Who is The Secret Feminist Cabal?)
>
The secret feminist cabal is sort of a Wiscon inside joke. I don't know
who originated the phrase, probably a disgruntled conservative male
writer, but the Wiscon people, and particularly Karen Joy Fowler and a
number of others have taken to using it. I've seen it mentioned in a
number of essays and heard it used at Wiscon.
Mike Levy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:10:00 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Dave Samuelson
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
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"Utopian" has been confusing at least since Thomas More coined the word in
Latin (out of "no place" and the "good place"). In common usage, it means
the unbelievably good place or the purely philosophical good place (Plato
and More explicitly), yet it also incorporates "dystopia" or the bad
place, which seems to be how most if not all good places look to folks who
didn't design them (sometimes even to the designers after a while).
LeGuin's "ambiguous" version was less radical than it seemed, since
literary utopias have usually been ambiguous; Delany called Triton (now
Trouble on Triton, its original title) a "heterotopia," taken from--but
not clearly (to me) synonymous with--Foucault's coining of the word.
Although utopias today commonly merge with science fiction (both soft and
hard, if anyone's counting), they almost always emphasize political
organization (even in Delany's case, where it is impossibly pluralistic)
at the expense of science and technology. Whileaway seems an ambiguous
utopia (good place) while The Female Man might more precisely be called a
multiple heterotopia (with all of its worlds being utopias in the sense of
no place). As for optimism and pessimism, it seems to me that few
literary utopias are hopeful of realization, and most literary dystopias
are hopeful of overthrow. Does that add enough further confusion to the
issue?
donna simone wrote:
> > Which world is utopian? I at first thought when I read it for the
> > first time that there really wasnt a utopia that Russ was trying to
> > convey. >
>
> good question Bertina.
>
> I guess I grow ever more confused about the word Utopian and, I want to
> pointedly interject, Dystopian. My understanding is limited, but is best
> captured by a few lines from a long ago article by Peter Fitting "The
> Turn From Utopia in Recent Feminist Fiction" (that I am able to lay
> hands on right this minute). I quote:
>
> "Both utopias and dystopias have a performative function; they are
> intended ideally to push the reader to action....in dystopian novels, in
> terms of their ability to warn the reader and to push her or him to act
> on that knowledge; and, in utopian works, in terms of their
> effectiveness in evoking a world in which I would like to live."
>
> My opinion is that the world of Jael is most clearly a Dystopia.
> Especially as evidenced by the points made that "each world [Russ]
> portrayed was equally stressful" and Jael's "other characteristics of
> strength, controlled violence and, paradoxically, simmering, inchoate
> rage." Would anyone want to live in a world that leaves one in rage?
>
> I do not believe that every fictional conjecture that "removes men" is
> automatically an author's (male or female) idea or creation of a Utopia?
> I believe absenting from our explanatory tools the idea of
> Dystopia/dystopian from description and analysis of feminist works skews
> our perception of what an authors intent may have been. And perhaps
> leads to unjust assessments of a writers individual beliefs. I also
> believe it limits ones ability to see the _benefits_ in what an author
> may be trying to convey to her/his readers.
>
> I personally do not believe that Joanna Russ intended Jael's world, or
> any of her four world views, to be anything but the most powerful
> _Dystopian_ visions. Calling up Fitting again - I believe she is trying
> to warn _this Reader_ and push me to act on that knowledge. I have been
> trying do so for all these many years since my first reading of The
> Female Man.
>
> donna
> donnaneely@earthlink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:26:14 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Claudia Mastroianni
Subject: To Say Nothing of the Dog
Rebecca Springer quite rightly asked:
: Claudia Mastroianni recently compared TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG to "a
: Dorothy Parker mystery." I've read both TO SAY NOTHING and a few
: Dorothy Parker stories, and the comparison stumped me. Do you perhaps
: me Dorothy _Sayers_?
And of course I did. So sorry, and thanks for catching me. :)
Claudia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:43:17 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Joyce Jones
Subject: BDG The Female Man, very long
I was amazed the first time someone suggested that Jael's world could be the
utopia, then to find the opinion seconded just floored me. That people
would think Russ could have envisioned Jael's world of constant violence,
humiliation and oppression to be the utopia rather than Whileway seemed to
me almost like saying Eleanor Roosevelt was probably a closet Nazi.
No, I do not think Jael's world was or was intended to be a utopia, even to
Jael. Yes Jael reveled in her ability to protect herself, to out do and
even to kill any man she needed to. It's Jael's proficiency, supreme self
confidence and lack of fear that inspires many people, including myself.
The idea that a woman could go among men completely hostile to women and
know that not only will she survive but she will make them pay for their
malevolence is exhilarating. This is the reason some of us think fondly of
Jael and consider invoking her spirit in incidences of daily life. Women
are still oppressed. Russ's book is not at all outdated, in my opinion.
I want to quote a poem by Marge Piercy that shows an instance in which the
spirit that lead to Jael's world is with us. The impetus for some of us to
become like or at least greatly admire Jael arises from events of today as
surely as they did in the 1970's.
For two women shot to death in Brookline, Massachusetts
How dare a woman choose?
Choose to be pregnant
choose to be childless
choose to be a lesbian
choose to have two lovers or none
choose to abort
choose to live alone
choose to walk alone
at night
choose to come and to go
without permission
without leave
without a man.
Consider a woman's blood
spilled on a desk,
pooled on an office floor,
an ordinary morning at work,
an ordinary morning of helping
other women choose
to be or not to be
pregnant.
A woman young and smiling
sitting at a desk
trying to put other women at ease
now bleeds from five
large wounds, bleeding
from her organs
bleeding out her life.
A young man is angry at women
women who say no
women who say maybe and mean no
women who won't
women who do and they shouldn't.
If they are pregnant they are bad
because that proves
they did it with someone,
they did it
and should die.
A man gets angry with a woman
who decides to leave him
who decides to walk off
who decides to walk
who decides.
Women are not real to such men.
They should behave as meat.
Such men drag them into the woods
and stab them
climb in their windows and rape them
such men shoot them in the kitchens
such men strangle them in bed
such men lie in wait
and ambush them in parking lots
such men walk into a clinic
and kill the first woman they see.
In harm's way:
meaning in the way of a man
who is tasting his anger
like rare steak.
A daily ordinary courage
doing what has to be done
every morning, every afternoon
doing it over and over
because it is needed
put them in harm's way.
Two women dying
because a man chose that they die.
Two women dying
because they did their job
helping other women survive.
Two women dead
from the stupidity of an ex altar boy
who saw himself
as a fetus
who pumped his sullen fury
automatically
into the woman in front of him
twice, and intended more.
Stand up now and say No More.
Stand up now and say We will not
be ruled by crazies and killers,
by shotguns and bombs and acid.
We will not dwell in the caves of fear.
We will make each other strong.
We will make each other safe.
There is no other monument.
This is the real fear and anger that inspired Russ to write Jael and Jael's
world. There's nothing utopian about that world, just inspiration from a
woman who knows how to fight back.
Contrast that world with this scene from Whileway:
"There's no being out too late in Whileaway, or up to early, or in the wrong
part of town, or unescorted. You cannot fall out of the kinship web and
become sexual prey for strangers, for there is no prey and there are no
strangers--the web is world-wide. In all of Whileaway there is no one who
can keep you from going where you please (though you may risk your life, if
that sort of thing appeals to you), no one who will follow you and try to
embarrass you by whispering obscenities in your ear, no one who will attempt
to rape you, no one who will warn you of the dangers of the street, no one
who will stand on street corners, hot-eyed and vicious, jingling loose
change in his pants pocket, bitterly bitterly sure that you're a cheap
floozy, hot and wild, who likes it, who can't say no, who's making a mint
off it, who inspires him with nothing but disgust, and who wants to drive
him crazy.
On Whileaway eleven-year-old children strip and live naked in the wilderness
above the forty-seventh parallel, where they meditate, stark naked or
covered with leaves, sans pubic hair, subsisting on the roots and berries so
kindly planted by their elders. You can walk around the Whileawayan equator
twenty times (if the feat takes your fancy and you live that long) with one
hand on your sex and in the other an emerald the size of a grapefruit. All
you'll get is a tired wrist."
I don't see how we can doubt that this is the utopia. The safety described
above plus art, learning, work, love, worship, independence, self
determination. What more could you want. Well, maybe men, but I guess Russ
wasn't so sure how all this could be accomplished for women judging by the
domineering urge demonstrated by men.
A world run by "bullies"? I don't think so. Yes they did go into the hills
and get the woman who not only turned her back on society, the section
quoted above shows how that was perfectly allowable; but she said society
didn't exist, and that wasn't allowed. The only way to have individual
freedom, Russ seemed to say, was to insist that members of a society
recognize both the society and everyone's right to live in it under their
own guidance. You can take yourself out of society but you don't have the
right to deny the existence of the laws of society.
Joyce
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:59:44 -0000
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Carol Ann Kerry-Green
Subject: Re: No BDG nominations?
In-Reply-To: <199902221033.LAA15159@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
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Well, the ones nominated so far all sound good to me.
I'm unsure about nominating, some of the ones I thought about
(Gwyneth Jones 'White Queen') I don't know if they're available in
the US - where most of the list members appear to be - will check
Amazon, but I don't get the chance to get on line as often as I'd like.
Carol Ann
Hull, UK
> Sometimes the dynamics of an email distribution list are really
> bewildering. The BDG nomination period is nearly half over and so far
> we have only 3 (in words: three) nominations, all from the BDG
> 'staff':
>
> Eleanor Arnason: Ring of Swords. Tor Books; ISBN: 0312890168,
> $13.95 Paperback - 382 pages (January 1995)
>
> Molly Gloss: The Dazzle of Day. Tor, 1998. Paperback, ISBN:
> 031286437X; List Price: $12.95
>
> Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman. $11.95 Paperback Reprint edition
> (August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064
>
>
> The recommendations can be looked up at
> http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_nom.html
>
>
> If you are interested in the next BDG round, I urge you to
> nominate books you like to read.
>
>
> Petra
>
>
>
> *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:29:34 0100
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Petra Mayerhofer
Subject: 2. Update BDG Nominations
In-Reply-To: <199902240100.RAA14758@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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After a slow start we have already reached a new record of
nominations (28) and we're not finished yet. I've again
updated the nomination list (see
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_nom.html). The
nominations are listed at the end of this email. Please check whether
your nomination is included.
I've also included _The Kin of ATA_, which I had overlooked before.
Sorry for that.
Two nominations can unfortunately not be accepted at this point:
On 23 Feb 99 geminiwalker wrote:
> I would also like to nominate, since I happen to have it handy,
> Ursula LeGuin's Planet of Exile:
Amazon.com is down at the moment for maintenance so I checked the
books at Amazon.de (MAY I KINDLY ASK NOMINATORS AGAIN TO CHECK
THEMSELVES THE AVAILABILITY OF THE BOOKS AND TO POST THE RELEVANT
INFORMATION. IT MAKES A LOT OF WORK.)
In Amazon.de they only show LeGuin's Planet of Exile as part of a 3
in 1 book (Rocannon's World, Planet of Exile, City of Illusions) for
about 18$. Do you nonetheless want to nominate the book?
On 23 Feb 99 Candioglos, Sandy wrote:
> Can we still nominate? If we can, I'd like to nominate "A Fisherman
> of the Inland Sea" by LeGuin in its place.
No. You cannot nominate this book 8-( .
But take heart, it is one of the winners of the last nomination round
and discussion on it starts next Monday .
The April book will be _Jaran_ by Kate Elliot. By the way, you can
look up books discussed so far and scheduled next on
http://www.geocities.com:80/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_guideline.html
(only till the BDG page at the FSFFU site is updated).
Petra
Nominated books: 28 (24 February)
Eleanor Arnason: Ring of Swords. Tor Books; ISBN: 0312890168,
$13.95 Paperback - 382 pages (January 1995)
Catherine Asaro: Last
Hawk. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 480 pages
(December 1998), St Martins Pr (Trade); ISBN: 0812551109
Catherine Asaro: Primary Inversion. List Price: $5.99, Mass
Market Paperback (May 1996), Tor Books; ISBN: 0812550234
Chitra
Banerjee Divakaruni: The Mistress of Spices. List Price: $12.00,
Paperback - 352 pages, 1 Anchor edition (March 1998), Doubleday;
ISBN: 0385482388
Dorothy Bryant: The Kin of Ata are Waiting for
You. Paperback reprint, (April 1997). Random House, ISBN
0679778438, $11.95.
Octavia Butler: Dawn (Xenogenesis, Bk. 1.).
(April 1997), Aspect; ISBN: 0446603775 Octavia Butler: Wild Seed.
(December 1988), Warner Books; ISBN: 0445205377
Pat Cadigan:
Patterns. list about $14.00, trade ISBN 0312868375
Raphael
Carter: The Fortunate Fall. List Price: $13.95, Paperback 288
pages (May 1997), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312863276
Charles De Lint:
Into the Green. List Price: $4.99, Mass Market Paperback Reprint
edition (January 1995), Tor Books; ISBN: 0812522494
Suzette Haden
Elgin: Earthsong (Native Tongue, Book 3). (February 1994); New
American Library; ISBN: 0886775922
Molly Gloss: The Dazzle of
Day. Tor, 1998. Paperback, ISBN: 031286437X ; List Price: $12.95
Jewelle Gomez: The Gilda Stories. Publisher: Firebrand ;
Publication Date: Jun 1991; List price: US-$11.95; ISBN
093237994X
Nicola Griffith: Slow River. list about $11.00 trade
ISBN 0345395379
Kay Kenyon: Leap Point. list about $6.00, mass
market ISBN 0553576828
Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain. copyright:
1994, Publisher: AvoNova, March 1994, ISDN: 0-380-71877-4, This
version is available at Amazon.com
Nancy Kress: Maximum Light.
List Price: $5.99, Mass Market Paperback - 256 pages (January
1999), St Martins Pr (Trade); ISBN: 0812540379
Tanith Lee: Red
Unicorn. (March 1998), Tor Books; ISBN: 0812539389
Elizabeth
Moon: Remnant Population. Available at Amazon: Mass Market
Paperback - 352 pages (March 1997), Baen Books; ISBN: 0671877704;
$US 4.79, Australian retailers: $Aus:11.95 - $Aus13.95
Pat
Murphy: The Falling Woman. $11.95 Paperback Reprint edition
(August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064
Notkin, Debbie and The
Secret Feminist Cabal (Eds.): Flying Cups and Saucers: Gender
Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy. 1998. Edgewood 1st
ed, $18.00. (further information on how to obtain this book will
be provided on the list)
Sheri S. Tepper: The Family Tree.
Paperback (May 1998) Eos (Mass Market); ISBN: 0380791978, List
Price: $6.99
Sheri Tepper: Grass. Mass Market Paperback, ISBN:
0553285653. Amazon gives no list price, only its own price, which
is $6.50 + $1.90 special surcharge (don't ask me why,
availability is o.k.)
David Weber: On Basilisk Station. Mass
Market Paperback (September 1998), Pocket Books; ISBN:
0671577727, List Price: $1.99
David Weber: The Honor of the Queen
(Honor Harrington). List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback -
432 pages Reissue edition (June 1993), Baen Books; ISBN:
0671721720 ;
Connie Willis: The Doomsday Book. Spectra Mass
Market Paperback Reprint edition September 1993 ISBN: 0553562738,
List Price: $6.50
Connie Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog. List
Price: $6.50, Paperback (December 1, 1998), Bantam Books; ISBN:
0553575384
*** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de ***
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:22:00 -0000
Reply-To: thomas@animal.u-net.com
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Thomas Goodey
Subject: Genetically altered food (OFF-LIST-TOPIC!)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> The seeds probably won't get all that great a foothold, because the
> EU has held *quite* firm on its refusal to import any food products
> which have been genetically altered.
This isn't true at all. The EU imports lots of genetically
altered soya from the USA, and modified tomato puree,
and other products.
However, this isn't feminist SF.....
Thomas Goodey
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:46:07 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: heather
Subject: Re: secret feminist cabal: was BDG Nomination
In-Reply-To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 23:18 -0600 2/23/99, Michael Marc Levy wrote:
>The secret feminist cabal is sort of a Wiscon inside joke. I don't know
>who originated the phrase, probably a disgruntled conservative male
>writer, but the Wiscon people, and particularly Karen Joy Fowler and a
>number of others have taken to using it. I've seen it mentioned in a
>number of essays and heard it used at Wiscon.
And, as the Acknowledgements to _Flying Cups and Saucers_ says:
"The Secret Feminist Cabal is everywhere . . . . We welcome every reader
of this anthology to join"
If you subscribe to FSFFU you're probably already a de facto member of the
cabal. There's no ID card, but if you want some kind of outward
identifier, at Wiscon and at some Tiptree bakesales at other cons you can
get a ray-gun-toting space babe temporary tattoo that says "secret feminist
cabal"
...........................................................
heather / \ kebbo@earthlink.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:16:02 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Robin Reid
Subject: OT: grumpiness about accusations of extremism
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(SATIRE ALERT!!!!!!!): "Speaking as a grumpy old feminist of 43 years old,
I have to say I find much of the the rhetoric of younger feminists these
days ridiculously extremist and dated. To assume that their contemporary
situations are universal across culture and time and to imply that "women"
of twenty or more years ago were to blame for all the "crap" they took is
something I hope they grow out of when they are lucky enough to get OLD.
And I wait gleefully for those extremist and dated young feminists of today
to end up on the other end of the age spectrum." (END OF SATIRE ALERT!!!!!!!!)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:25:23 +0000
Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Comments: Authenticated sender is
From: geminiwalker
Organization: Gemini Walker Ink
Subject: Re: 2. Update BDG Nominations
In-Reply-To: <199902240930.KAA27109@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> After a slow start we have already reached a new record of
> nominations (28) and we're not finished yet. I've again
> updated the nomination list (see
> http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_nom.html). The
> nominations are listed at the end of this email. Please check whether
> your nomination is included.
>
> I've also included _The Kin of ATA_, which I had overlooked before.
> Sorry for that.
>
> Two nominations can unfortunately not be accepted at this point:
>
> On 23 Feb 99 geminiwalker wrote:
> > I would also like to nominate, since I happen to have it handy,
> > Ursula LeGuin's Planet of Exile:
>
> Amazon.com is down at the moment for maintenance so I checked the
> books at Amazon.de (MAY I KINDLY ASK NOMINATORS AGAIN TO CHECK
> THEMSELVES THE AVAILABILITY OF THE BOOKS AND TO POST THE RELEVANT
> INFORMATION. IT MAKES A LOT OF WORK.)
>
> In Amazon.de they only show LeGuin's Planet of Exile as part of a 3
> in 1 book (Rocannon's World, Planet of Exile, City of Illusions) for
> about 18$. Do you nonetheless want to nominate the book?
Sorry about not being more thorough in
researching my nomination. The trilogy
is what I have, but I didn't realize
it is the only way it comes. I got it
second hand at a feminist bookstore.
I will withdraw it from nomination.
...geminiwalker
chuard@earthlink.net
To learn more about me, go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard
updated 2/22/99
ICQ #27240345
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:23:49 -0800
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Pat
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
Comments: To: geminiwalker
In-Reply-To: <199902240100.RAA15055@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, geminiwalker wrote:
>
> Funny, I didn't see it that way, as Davy *is* a machine.
> He does not appear to have any feelings at all, albeit
> whatever sexio/physical ones that lead him to the
> ejaculate he has. What, then, is the difference between
> him and a vibrator (which, frankly, I would prefer)?
> Are we raping every time we use a vibrator, because
> the vibrator has no choice, and we have all the
> control?
>
Does anyone remember how Tasha Yar on NextGen used
Data? And he's a Star Fleet officer!>
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mathews@unm.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:40:00 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: "Janice E. Dawley"
Subject: Re: BDG The Female Man: Jael character
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote:
> I don't think that [Whileaway] is Russ' ideal world either - however
> seductive it might be to think that [it] would be a Utopia for a
> "radical, socialist, lesbian feminist".
True, I can't say what Russ's ideal world would be. But *I* like
Whileaway. Unfortunately, I did not reread the entire book prior to this
discussion, so I can't respond to your comments with relevant details.
Except to say that I never got the impression that Whileaway was
"bland". A contrary image that immediately springs to my mind is the
narrator entering a clearing to find three young women sitting around a
small abstract metallic object laughing helplessly about what it
represents. Puzzling. Amusing. Not bland. And then there's Dunyasha
Bernadetteson!
> Someone commented to me offlist that _The female man_ was dated the
> day it was published. I think that's cruelly unfair but contains more
> than a grain of truth. As I see it, the "strident", "making a big
> deal out of nothing" and "rage" are precisely those things that date
> it and, more importantly, reduce its impact. Many, perhaps most,
> younger women read it and are immediately repelled the rage that the
> book projects. They see, for example, the Jael connection, Davy, even
> the thumb episode, are revolted and Russ' message is lost.
>
> [...] In some ways, I'm reminded of World War II propaganda; we
> laugh at its excesses now but at the time the overwhelming mass of
> people found it stirring.
I don't understand this argument. You seem to be saying that feminist
anger is a phenomenon of the 60s/70s that has now lost its usefulness.
That today's women (which women?) cannot relate to it in the way that
yesterday's women (which women?) could. Well... feminism may have had an
upswelling of card-carrying members in the 60s/70s, but I feel safe in
saying that *The Female Man* has *always* had a strictly limited
audience. That *most* women and almost all men wouldn't "get it" or
approve of it. But so what? There are those of us, of all ages, who have
read it and wept, been inspired, laughed uncontrollably, and otherwise
been moved to hear someone say what we have been thinking, if murkily,
all this time. Perhaps if Russ were more of a milquetoast more people
*would* be reading her books. I don't think she is willing to make that
tradeoff, and thank Peep for that!
--
Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT
http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/
Listening to: Mercury Rev -- Deserter's Songs
"Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:05:37 -0600
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
From: Cynthia Gonsalves
Subject: Re: secret feminist cabal: was BDG Nomination
In-Reply-To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:46 AM 2/24/99 -0500, Heather wrote:
>
>"The Secret Feminist Cabal is everywhere . . . . We welcome every reader
>of this anthology to join"
>
>If you subscribe to FSFFU you're probably already a de facto member of the
>cabal. There's no ID card, but if you want some kind of outward
>identifier, at Wiscon and at some Tiptree bakesales at other cons you can
>get a ray-gun-toting space babe temporary tattoo that says "secret feminist
>cabal"
>
The ray-gun-toting space babe is on last year's Wiscon shirt. Got the
tattoos as souvenirs, got the T-shirt! I'm now fully kitted out to subvert
the SF/fantasy patriarchy...
The Cabal isn't that secret any more, and yes, listmembers are probably
members in good standing.
Cynthia
--
"I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit."
-Matt Ruff in Sewer, Gas, and Electric
Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:18:45 -0500
Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"
Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature"