From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thu Apr 15 13:58:02 1999 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:26:32 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: lquilter@HOOKED.NET Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9903D" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 06:30:28 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: OT: "no-connection" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain >Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:20:11 +0000 >From: geminiwalker >Subject: Re: OT: "no-connection" [snip] > No, it is based on scientific studies, data, and documentation > that is plentiful, if one takes the time to read the research. > In fact, there is much more research, and far more > documentation disputing, if not downright disproving, > the HIV=AIDS theory than the other way around. In > fact, I already said that. But then again, I had to do the > reading for a "position paper" I was supposed to be > writing supporting the use of prophylactic AZT for > rape survivors. The scientific documentation weighed > very heavy on the side of raising questions. The > rhetoric began to appear to insidious for me to support, > and I had been "educated" by the supposedly "best" > "health educators" in the field. Geminiwalker, if you can read the current scientific AIDS literature and still feel that HIV has nothing to do with AIDS, then I doubt anything that I or anyone else can say will change your mind. Please consider taking this discussion to email. Thanks. Danny Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:17:56 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: OT: "no-connection" In-Reply-To: <19990322143029.17233.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:30 AM 3/22/99 PST, Daniel Krashin wrote: >>From: geminiwalker >>Subject: Re: OT: "no-connection" >[snip] >> No, it is based on scientific studies, data, and >documentation >> that is plentiful, if one takes the time to read the >research. > >Geminiwalker, if you can read the current scientific AIDS literature >and still feel that HIV has nothing to do with AIDS, then >I doubt anything that I or anyone else can say will change your >mind. > My understanding, which may be as faulty as anyone else's, is that HIV is a virus which reverse copies itself into the cellular DNA of the host. Full-blown AIDS the disease, is dependent on the site, or sites, in the host chromosomes the HIV transcribes itself into upon infection. Its like playing the lottery, there is no direct mathematical "probability" curve that can accurately predict whether your HIV has infected the 'trigger' site for AIDS or not. The longer you are infected with HIV the more likely it will eventually by sheer chance, end up triggering the wrong DNA site, in the wrong cells to cause AIDS. At one end of bad luck, the HIV hits the trigger sites first time, and you are dead within months of infection..at the other end of the spectrum people may go through 50 years or more never knowing they were infected in the first place. Added to this random pot-luck on infection site, is the variability of infectiousness from one host to another, which also appears to be dependent on "where' the HIV has infected...and/or other infections the individual may be harbouring, their general health and so forth - and also, the increasing probability of mutations in the virus as it circulates through populations. Unlike most horror sci-fi scenarios, the majority of viruses usually mutate to less virulent forms..not more virulent forms, and the human immune system is far more adaptable than is usually thought. Although exceptions exist, such as 'Killer Flu" virus epidemics which appear periodically throughout human history because of a complicated process of the flu virus "species-hopping" between birds, swine and humans. As for recommending prophylactic AZT treatment for pregnant or nursing mothers, whilever the international medical community can only give a "best guess" as to its effectiveness - I would personally prefer that responsible adults should be able to choose whether to trust their own personal "best guess", or their doctors, and not be legally coerced either way. As for breastmilk - for the first 6 months or so all the mothers antibodies in her blood will transfer to the infant through the milk, dropping off over time as the child develops their own immunities. As for lysozyme and other enzymes in saliva - most animals with saliva have some sort of protective cocktail of antibodies,enzymes and other compounds in saliva - similar to a mild detergent for killing germs when we wash dishes. This is why almost all organisms with saliva and tongue will lick their wounds clean - it acts like a multi-spectrum antibiotic and antiviral cocktail, as well as a mild coagulent to help stop minor bleeding:) My two cents worth, and thats all I'm spending I promise:) Cheers - Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:30:22 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: OT: "no-connection" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/22/99 6:31:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Please consider taking this discussion to email. Thanks. >> Wait! Geminiwalker, could you share some references? I am getting really curious about this.... Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:18:45 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: OT treatment of pregnant prisoners Julieanne wrote: >..but for the poor, and prisoners. ..USA hospitals are on about the same >level of quality, as downtown rural Bangladesh... Well, I have to take exception with you there. I have heard horror stories of birth in county hospitals, Charity Hospital in Louisiana comes to mind, but this is not a nationwide phenomenon. I work in a county hospital that is mandated to take indigent people and people with no insurance. There is no other hospital in town I would go to if I were ill and certainly no other hospital where I would give birth. (Actually, I wouldn't go to any hospital to birth, but that's another topic.) We give excellent care to both private patients and residents' patients. There is a push by hospital administration to give a little extra special care to private patients, but that doesn't always work in the patient's favor. Private doctors, at least in the USA, are very cautious about lawsuits and paradoxically seem to feel so unaccountable to anyone's opinion but their own that they make decisions based on their own comfort, their own time frame, their own limited knowledge, their own need to be in control of a situation. Frequently this way of approaching birth is so exactly opposite to the natural flow of labor that cesarean section or at least the diminution of a woman's self confidence is inevitable. Private doctors with the biggest egos can be dangerous to a birthing woman. I'm sorry for all this off topic stuff. I shall go now and repent. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:44:28 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Organization: Gemini Walker Ink Subject: Re: OT: "no-connection" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > In a message dated 3/22/99 6:31:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, > dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > << Please consider taking this discussion to email. Thanks. >> > > Wait! Geminiwalker, could you share some references? I am getting really > curious about this.... > > Madrone > > Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter Duesberg Positively False by Joan Shenton The AIDS War by John Lauritsen Poison by Prescription: The AZT Story by John Lauritsen John Lauritsen's book are no longer in print, but you can contact him directly for copies he has left (I have). Inventing the AIDS Virus and Positively False can be found at amazon.com The only reason I find this discussion appropriate for this list is because of the bizarre science-fiction possibilities. I'm done with it for now, at least here. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net To learn more about me, go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard updated 3/14/99 ICQ #27240345 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:09:42 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Recent reading - March Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Again I haven't had much time this last month; hopefully I'll have more time to read when I join the unemployment line next week. But I did manage to read a few new authors (at least new to me) - most of whom can be recommended. Some of the books are re-reads about which my opinion has changed upwards; now that I've read a lot of MZB, I find that I am into her style and enjoying books I disliked earlier. I'm seriously considering making a complete collection of her work. Bradley, Marion Zimmer: The falcons of Narabedla_ (***--), _The forbidden tower_ (***--), _The door through space_ (****-), _Sword & sorceress 1 & 2_ (only edited by MZB but some good stories) Kerr, Katharine: _Daggerspell_ (****-), _Darkspell_ (***--), _Dawnspell_ (**---), _Dragonspell_ (***--), _The red wyvern_ (reading in progress seems good) May, Julian: _The many-coloured land_ (***--), _The golden torc_ (***--), _The non-born King_ (***--), _The adversary_ (***--) McKenna, Juliet E: _The thief's gamble_ (****-) Russell, Maria Doria: _Children of God _ (*---- Ugh!) Sullivan, Tricia: _Dreaming in smoke_ (****-) My most enjoyable book of the month was Andrew Morton's _Monica's story_. Contrary to my expectations I found it's well worth reading and I recommend it throughly (just to read NOT to buy). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:18:45 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Memoirs of a Spacewoman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Some weeks ago I finished _Memoirs of a Spacewoman_ by Naomi Mitchison. As everything was very busy at that time because of the BDG nominations I did not find time to post on it. I liked that novel a lot. Somewhere it was described as 'radiant' and IMO that really captures the atmosphere of it. Several times we have discussed on this list whether we should judge the feminist content of a book published decades ago by the present standard. In that respect I was especially impressed by this book. It was written in the early sixties and describes female scientists in a 'normal' and believable way (I mean in contrast to other examples of the same (?) time period, e.g. Dr. Susan Calvin in the robot stories by Asimov). IMO the characterisation of the female scientists would completely hold up in present novels. In addition there are female-only research expeditions and mixed expeditions headed by a female scientist who has to make tough decisions and it is not represented as something 'detracting from her feminity' ! The novel must really have been like a breath of fresh air when it was published. To other list members who have read the book: what did you think of the transplants? To me they seemed to be very symbolic (like many of the other episodes/aliens in the novel), but I cannot quite figure out for what. They are certainly central to the book as 2 of the longer episodes incl. the last one are related to them. I have to own that the thought to 'feed' such a transplant made me extremely uncomfortable. It's hard for me to imagine that somebody would volunteer for something like that. Any thoughts? Petra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:27:55 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Fisherman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT It's me again with yet another online link to Le Guin/Fisherman. There is another tribut page to Le Guin called Bohemian Ink http://www.levity.com/corduroy/leguin.htm which I did not post last week because the files were removed at that time. On that page I found a link to a review by Danny Yee about _Fisherman_ http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/book-reviews/h/A_Fisherman_of_the_In land_Sea.html Danny Yee criticizes the "The Rock That Changed Things" Story: "For me, at least, it fell flat on its face - it is too unsubtle and too close to its target to make a good parable. (I also thought that the repeated use of the word "rape" in situations otherwise unmarked for discomfort, let alone pain and degradation, was insensitive - and somewhat odd, coming from a "born-again" feminist like Le Guin.)" Again the book is 400 km away and I cannot check. I certainly did not note the repeated, inappropriate use of the word 'rape'. Did you? Petra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:02:59 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Memoirs of a Spacewoman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, this is a lovely book, one of Mitchison's best. And the 'grafts' episode is very disturbing: I don't think one can read it on just one level, it works on several different ones, so I'm hesitant to even try and offer an interpretation. There are obvious resonances with the issues of motherhood and reproduction which concern NM in other episodes and others of her works, but this doesn't seem to me to be an exhaustive analysis. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Recent reading - Mary Doria Russell In-Reply-To: <8025673D.005F6E6B.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mike, could say a few more (okay, a lot more) words about your reaction to Children of God -- if possible without 'spoiling' it, I'm waiting for the paperback (and teh stack on my desk to shrink, which it never will now thanks to Susan! ;-))? Did you like The Sparrow? And has anyone ever commented to you on what passes for 'a few' books read in a month? Wow! you just plow right on through them! On 23 Mar 99, , Mike Stanton wrote: > Russell, Maria Doria: _Children of God _ (*---- Ugh!) Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:26:33 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: BDG Fisherman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > Danny Yee criticizes the "The Rock That Changed > Things" Story: "For me, at least, it fell flat on its face - it is > too unsubtle and too close to its target to make a good parable. (I > also thought that the repeated use of the word "rape" in situations > otherwise unmarked for discomfort, let alone pain and degradation, > was insensitive - and somewhat odd, coming from a "born-again" > feminist like Le Guin.)" > > Again the book is 400 km away and I cannot check. I certainly > did not note the repeated, inappropriate use of the word 'rape'. Did > you? > The fact that this person could characterize slavery as a situation "unmarked for discomfort" should be a warning. I took another look at the story and noted the work "rape" four times: First on page 62, giving the general idea that the nurs are slaves and are routinely beaten and raped by the obls, but especially when the stones are out of order. (a situation unmarked for discomfort?!) The second use (p 64) is when Bu approaches an Obl she thinks may answer her question about the stones because he is kind and has never raped her (unlike most of the other Obls, we can logically assume. Still a situation unmarked for discomfort?) The other references to rape are on p 70 and refer to Bu being sent to jail as punishment for asking about the stones. There she is raped by the students "whenever they pleased" and becomes pregnant as a result of this rape. "Unmarked for discomfort" indeed! I don't think it's LeGuin who was "insensitive" here!! And besides, would anyone else here find it offensive to be called a "born again feminist"? Isn't he trying to say she fanatical or (you know how those feminists are) strident?! Sounds like Danny Yee has a few things to leard about "pain and degradation" Sheesh! This midnight tirade brought to you by, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: BDG Fisherman In-Reply-To: <36F88599.69C6@people-link.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I did notice the references to rape when I first read the story, largely because they were stated in a matter-of-fact manner that made them function in a rather jarring way. I imagine that this is what our Danny-boy felt was 'unmarked for discomfort' -- what was in fact an attempt to show the degree to which such abuse was an accepted (or common?) part of being a nur. The nurs never get outraged over it; rape is a fact of their lives, as is their general slavery, physical and intellectual. The reviewer missed the point, in a big nig way -- and yet he refers to the story as unsubtle? Maybe you can't bring a horse to water after all... On 24 Mar 99, , Big Yellow Woman wrote: > Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > > > Danny Yee criticizes the "The Rock That Changed > > Things" Story: "For me, at least, it fell flat on its face - it is > > too unsubtle and too close to its target to make a good parable. (I also > > thought that the repeated use of the word "rape" in situations otherwise > > unmarked for discomfort, let alone pain and degradation, was insensitive > > - and somewhat odd, coming from a "born-again" feminist like Le Guin.)" > > > > Again the book is 400 km away and I cannot check. I certainly > > did not note the repeated, inappropriate use of the word 'rape'. Did > > you? > > > > The fact that this person could characterize slavery as a situation > "unmarked for discomfort" should be a warning. I took another look at the > story and noted the work "rape" four times: First on page 62, giving the > general idea that the nurs are slaves and are routinely beaten and raped > by the obls, but especially when the stones are out of order. (a situation > unmarked for discomfort?!) The second use (p 64) is when Bu approaches an > Obl she thinks may answer her question about the stones because he is kind > and has never raped her (unlike most of the other Obls, we can logically > assume. Still a situation unmarked for discomfort?) The other references > to rape are on p 70 and refer to Bu being sent to jail as punishment for > asking about the stones. There she is raped by the students "whenever > they pleased" and becomes pregnant as a result of this rape. "Unmarked for > discomfort" indeed! I don't think it's LeGuin who was "insensitive" here!! > > And besides, would anyone else here find it offensive to be called a > "born again feminist"? Isn't he trying to say she fanatical or (you know > how those feminists are) strident?! > > Sounds like Danny Yee has a few things to leard about "pain and > degradation" Sheesh! > > This midnight tirade brought to you by, > Susan > Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:44:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Fisherman Petra wrote: >Danny Yee criticizes the "The Rock That Changed >Things" Story: "For me, at least, it fell flat on its face - it is >too unsubtle and too close to its target to make a good parable. (I >also thought that the repeated use of the word "rape" in situations >otherwise unmarked for discomfort, let alone pain and degradation, >was insensitive - and somewhat odd, coming from a "born-again" >feminist like Le Guin.)" I guess ol' Danny didn't get it, did he? That's a surprise because if he can refer to rape as discomfort, he should well have understood the obls use of this kind of oppression to keep their nurobls in line. I can just hear one of them thinking, "Yeah, rape is uncomfortable for the nurobls, but you have to do something to get their attention." I agree, it was not a subtle story, and the casual reference to rape just made it that much more powerful. The subtlety, to me, was that it wasn't the repeated abuse that was the ultimate cause of revolt of the nurobls but the recognition of beauty. No wonder there's so much opposition to the NEA from fundamentalist conservatives. They recognize just how dangerous art can be when it opens a person's mind to possibilities, when it makes her believe she could have options. Poor Danny, I guess he should have stopped with The First Contact With the Gorgonids, I don't think the meaning there would have so easily evaded him. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:52:19 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: _The sparrow_ / _The children of God_ Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 23 Mar 99, at 17:45, Rudy Leon wrote: > Mike, could say a few more (okay, a lot more) words about your > reaction to Children of God -- if possible without 'spoiling' it.... I didn't like _the sparrow_ because I thought the main theme of the book was just a sophomoric version of Hans Kung's implied question in _Credo_ "Why does God 'not intervene in the greatest natural catastrophes and crimes of humanity, but [just] keeps silent and keeps silent and keeps silent...'?" It's a plotline that's been used so often it's a cliche - so for it to work here Russell would have had to have done something special but she just didn't have what it takes. Still, it's the type of book that amateur theologians - the sort of people who get their theology from the Reader's Digest - might call a profound study of one man's relationship with his God because the book's on about that level. It also reminded me of an inverse of Fr. Kummel's 1929 anti-Semitic diatribe _The Rabbi Israel_ (Kummel was a Jew who became a Catholic priest). _The sparrow_ struck me as the type of thing that might be written by a lapsed Catholic converted to Judaism (that's not a serious suggestion). It's not that I'm a believer in anything, it's just that the book with its nasty attacks, cardboard characters (especially the aliens) and contrived situations left an unpleasant aftertaste. It's a pity really because _The sparrow_ could have been a really worthwhle book. Normally I wouldn't have read another of Mary Doria Russell's books BUT... I ordered Robert Conrad's _Children of God's Fire: A History of Black Slavery in Brazil_ (STRONGLY recommended) through our NY office and guess what I got? _Children of God_ is different in many ways from _The sparrow_: the nastiness has been toned down, there are far fewer dropped plotlines, the 'jumps' in the storyline are less jarring and there aren't no so many unfulfilled hints about 'secrets to come'. There's also a lot more action in it which, paradoxically in view of my earlier comments, made it even less interesting than _The sparrow_ because the action is so stereotyped that it's dull. But overall, the pattern remains the same. ************* Spoiler break ********************************* > And has anyone ever commented to you on what passes for 'a few' > books read in a month? Wow! you just plow right on through them! It's just that I'm a speed-reader (I'll read 3 short MZB's in an evening) and since I fly a lot and spend many nights alone in drab hotel rooms, I have a lot of time to read. Mind you, I'll be d* glad when we finally settle down in Italy next month even if I will have a lot less time to read. ************* End of spoiler break - spoilers below *********** _The children of God_ opens with: 'Sweating and nauseated, Father Sandoz sat on the edge of the bed with his head in what was left of his hands' ... and that's the high point; from then on it's downhill all the way with the good Father beating his breast and saying 'My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?' every couple of pages. And if he's not beating his own breast, someone else is beating him up. The continuous introspection and whimpering about past hurts gets boring very quickly and this isn't help by the slow pace of the novel. The book's half over before he gets on his way to Rakhat - and even then poor old Sandoz is beaten up, kidnapped and thrown aboard the spaceship where he's locked up, drugged and (you guessed it) beaten up again. The characters, the aliens in particular, are better developed and more rounded than in _The sparrow_. Unfortunately, they all behave like stereotypes - Danny Iron Hand runs around like the Lone Ranger's Tonto and so on - and I found it difficult to sustain an interest in any of them. The 'hero' - Sandoz - is especially weak, ready to lie down and start crying when anything goes wrong. Even in the scenes where he acts decisively (like his resusitation of the alien Shetri Laaks's child or his final argument with Sofia) his 'strength' comes off as mere petulance. But the really irritating things overall were the swings from pathos to bathos throughout the book. And the last scene where Sandoz almost holds his grandson ('peach-fuzz hair' and all), was easily the most unintentionally funny I've read for years. Even now I can't stop grinning! Who but Mary Doria Russell could write: 'He looked at this undreamed-of daughter and at her tiny child - frowning and milky in dreamless sleep - and found room in the crowded necropolis of his heart.' Reminds me of one of Eleanor Glyn at her worst. Mind you, the comments earlier in the chapter about the music of DNA proving the existence of God were equally funny (and predictable). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:03:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: ICFA Reprise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must gush....... Excellent conference! Feminist SFF was well represented and most honorably and brilliantly examined and explicated by attending feminist scholars. How tremendously satisfying. The Tiptree Motherboard was astonished at the extent of the programming on feminist SFF. The Tiptree auction was quite hysterical. The Tiptree collection - Flying Cups and Saucers - sold like hot cakes. A feminist scholar won the IAFA research award. And exciting closing news, Octavia Butler will be the Writer GOH at next years ICFA. I may go back again, Tiptree or no Tiptree. Totally OT personal plug - I met numerous folks from this list and I must say we are a fine and impressive bunch. I have long thought that FSFFU attracted and retained some of the most fascinating and intelligent folks. As well as very astute feminist critics. It is true. The papers presented by list members, and the never ending discussions engaged in throughout the week, were mind stretching and tantalizing. I was completely and delightedly exhausted by the final day. I offer a humble Thank You to my fellow list members at ICFA for all the amazing food my mind was offered this past week. I am sated. Well at least until Minicon next weekend! LOL Do so hope to connect with any of our MN members while I am there. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:02:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sutliff Sanders Subject: Re: ICFA Reprise In-Reply-To: <002c01be76af$13946800$1bb11b26@donna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:03 AM 3/25/99 -0500, the lovely and talented Donna Simone wrote: >I must gush....... >snip of eloquent gushing< Just to throw my voice in as well... I had a wonderful time. To my list colleagues: please consider putting ICFA 21 in your plans for next spring. As Donna mentioned, ICFA 21 will have Octavia Butler as guest, but you should know that Nancy Kress will also be there, and Candas Jane Dorsey might return as well. Please think of coming. Even if you can't meet the guests (which everyone who was interested seemed to do), it's well worth it for the plethora of quality feminist-speculative fiction panels...not just papers, mind you, but whole gosh-durned panels! Joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:41:57 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marge Simpson Subject: Re: _The sparrow_ / _The children of God_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Mike Stanton wrote: "I didn't like _the sparrow_ because I thought the main theme of the book was just a sophomoric version of Hans Kung's implied question in _Credo_ "Why does God 'not intervene in the greatest natural catastrophes and crimes of humanity, but [just] keeps silent and keeps silent and keeps silent...'?" It's a plotline that's been used so often it's a cliche" Mike, thank you for so eloquently voicing my problems with Maria Doria Russells books. I've been so frustrated with the rave reviews she has gotten for her books when I was so disappointed in her sophomoric depictions of stereotypical characters. Yes, I used the same words when describing the book to others when I first read _The Sparrow_. Ann _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:35:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: ICFA Reprise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > As Donna mentioned, ICFA 21 will > have Octavia Butler as guest, but you should know that Nancy Kress will > also be there, and Candas Jane Dorsey might return as well. I got the impression that Butler and Kress had been contacted and that they looked definite, but that they weren't yet confirmed. I hope they're there! If they are, I'll be there again. :-) Candas seems to be a regular. I think she's been there for the past three years. As the others have said, the feminist showing was strong this year, and from my perspective, it's been a steady improvement. I hope to see as much or more next year--it does depend on what submissions they get, though, so keep 'em coming. I, too, enjoyed meeting folks, although I didn't get to meet or talk with as many as I would have liked. Hopefully next year! -allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:53:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: gingembre Subject: OT: medianstrip.net Feminism Project Comments: cc: bast@medianstrip.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Medianstrip (www.medianstrip.net) is working on a project about feminism today, and specifically they're looking for a wide range of voices, perspectives, and ideas on feminism and what it means to be a feminist. I was hoping that some people on this list might have something to contribute... sorry for the unwanted message if you're not interested. All questions and comments on the project should go to bast@medianstrip.net. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Contribute to the Medianstrip "Voices of Feminism" project! We're working on putting together an online collection of perspectives on feminism today, and we want your help. One of our goals is to have as many different voices as possible participating, with as many different viewpoints as we can. How can you help? The simplest way is to write a short piece for inclusion in the project. We're looking for answers to questions like Why do you call yourself a feminist? Why don't you call yourself a feminist? What does it mean to you to be or not be a feminist? But if you have something that you want to say that doesn't directly relate to those questions, please send it in anyway! Anonymous and psuedonymous contributions also welcom. Contributions should be emailed to bast@medianstrip.net. To be included in the initial release (approximately 25 April), we need to have your piece by Monday, 19 April. Thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:11:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joan Bowman Subject: ICFA? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's ICFA? I tried searching for it but all I found were the International Committee on Future Accelerators, the International Coalition of Fisheries Associations and the International Cemetery and Funeral Association. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: ICFA? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > What's ICFA? I tried searching for it but all I found were the Oops.. It's the Internation Conference for the Fantastic in the Arts, sponsored/run/associated with the IAFA (International Association for the Fantastic in the Arts). They have a web page up at http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/iafa/ The "Arts" in this case largely refers to literature, although film, TV, and visual arts are represented to some degree, too. There are academic papers written by folks at many different academic levels, panels on a variety of different topics, as well as author's readings, a book room, an art room, a movie or two, etc. Each year, they have a guest of honor, a guest scholar, and guest author. They usually or always also have a guest artist, and film guest (usually a film scholar?). Lots of authors and publishing types are around. There was some discussion about the conference on this list because there were several list members in attendance and we wanted to meet face-to-face (f2f). -allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:11:46 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Organization: Gemini Walker Ink Subject: The Changeover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just finished reading Margaret Mahy's "Changeover," and while I'm not sure it classifies at feminist science fiction officially, it seems pretty feminist to me. It's a young adult read, but I enjoyed it immensely. The protagonist is a pubescent young woman trying to find a magickal way to save her dying little brother who has been bewitched by a very evil man. Laura (or Lolly, as her brother Jacko calls her) Chant, is living with her divorced Mom, Kate, and her little brother Jacko, which brings to life the single parent family with all of its struggles and warmth. Laura, as a 'sensitive,' is able to identify a classmate, Sorenson (Sorry) Carlisle, as a witch, who lives at home with his mother and his grandmother, all of whom work together to try to help Laura find a way to confront Carmody Braque (of the evil peppermint smell) and save Jacko's life. One of the steps they decide to take is to effect a "Changeover" -- to change Laura from someone who is merely sensitive, to someone who is fully a witch in her own right. The spellcasting is masterfully done, in fact, the best part of the entire book is the writing itself ... it's beautiful. The book is a winner of the Carnegie Medal (which I admit I had never heard of before now), but it is easy to see why. Laura is a strong, forthright, sensitive and independent main character who never *once* moons about whether or not Sorry is ever going to be her "boyfriend." In fact, it is Sorry who does whatever mooning there is, Laura is primarily focused on being Laura and taking care of her family, while appreciating the friendship that Sorry provides. I particularly enjoyed the slight intrigue of Sorry calling Laura by her last name, Chant, while she calls him Sorry, which somehow adds to the mystical air of the entire book. The author's way with words is truly something to experience. I can only hope to aspire to such artistry in my lifetime. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net To learn more about me, go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard updated 3/25/99 ICQ #27240345 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:21:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: The Changeover Comments: To: geminiwalker In-Reply-To: <199903271310.FAA29892@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, geminiwalker wrote: > I just finished reading Margaret Mahy's "Changeover," and while > I'm not sure it classifies at feminist science fiction officially, it > seems pretty feminist to me. It's a young adult read, but I enjoyed Thanks for the recommendation. I am always trying to find good YA books to share with my daughter. > it immensely. > ...geminiwalker Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:59:59 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: * * Subject: Re: The Changeover Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/27/99 8:10:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, chuard@earthlink.net writes: << Laura is a strong, forthright, sensitive and independent main character who never *once* moons about whether or not Sorry is ever going to be her "boyfriend." In fact, it is Sorry who does whatever mooning there is, >> It's been a long time since I read this book, but didn't Sorry also have a rather extensive collection of romance novels? This was one of my favourite books when I was about 13 or so, and I really liked the fact that it was the *boy* who was into romance novels, instead of the girl. -Marie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:18:16 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Organization: Gemini Walker Ink Subject: Re: The Changeover In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > In a message dated 3/27/99 8:10:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > chuard@earthlink.net writes: > > << Laura is a strong, forthright, sensitive and independent main > character who never *once* moons about whether or not Sorry > is ever going to be her "boyfriend." In fact, it is Sorry who does > whatever mooning there is, >> > > It's been a long time since I read this book, but didn't Sorry also have a > rather extensive collection of romance novels? This was one of my favourite > books when I was about 13 or so, and I really liked the fact that it was the > *boy* who was into romance novels, instead of the girl. > > > -Marie > > Yes, he did :-) It was a nostalgic reminder of his adoptive mother, even though she ended up having to return him to his real mother. That was a rather sweet part of him, wasn't it? ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net To learn more about me, go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard updated 3/25/99 ICQ #27240345 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:49:09 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: cyber question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry to interrupt the list with thie (everyone busy reading JARAN?) but I tried to access Laura Quilter's Tepper page the other day and was denied access. Then, when I tried to email Laura directly to ask about it, my email was bounced as well. Do I just have a sucky system? Can someone help me? Thanks! Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 9211 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:43:31 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: What Are We Reading, When? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would some kind soul please re-post the order of selected books coming up? I assume April is Jaran. I've got it, but I didn't like it well enough to re-read it. About the others, I'm completely in a muddle. Thanks for the help. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:45:42 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Where does Feminist sf Begin? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Since we're fairly quiet these days, and I've been thinking about the history of feminist science fiction, I want to throw out a quick question: What work(s) do you see as central to/leading to the "birth" of feminist science fiction? I have some ideas of my own, but I'd love to hear other people's perspectives. Thanks, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 15:41:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: What Are We Reading, When? In-Reply-To: <36FEA283.E298B83D@cdsnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:43 PM 03/28/99 -0800, Sharon wrote: >Would some kind soul please re-post the order of selected books coming up? I >assume April is Jaran. I've got it, but I didn't like it well enough to >re-read it. About the others, I'm completely in a muddle. Thanks for the help. > Yes, we start in next on Jaran. Here's the slate: April 5 Kate Elliot: Jaran May 3 Sheri Tepper: Grass June 7 Nicola Griffith: Slow River July 5 Connie Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog Aug 2 Octavia Butler: Wild Seed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 01:50:53 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Clark Subject: Suzy McKee Charnas books for April MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I checked Amazon.com for the next book in the WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD/MOTHERLINES/FURIES series, I saw two titles scheduled for release in April: 1. THE CONQUEROR'S CHILD (listed as "The Conqueror's Child, Vol. 2" @ Barnes & Noble online) and 2. THE SLAVE AND THE FREE Amazon.com decribes THE CONQUEROR'S CHILD as being the followup book to the series, but has no description for THE SLAVE AND THE FREE. Does anyone know if SLAVE is also part of the series? -Sharon P.S. Has anyone else noticed that the "New Releases List" section on the FSFFU ends with August 1997? And is the site REALLY moving to feministsf.org, or is that "ALERT!" message meant to keep us in unending suspense? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:33:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stephanie R." Subject: Re: Where does Feminist sf Begin? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-28 17:45:51 EST, pebedore@SFU.CA writes: << What work(s) do you see as central to/leading to the "birth" of feminist science fiction? I have some ideas of my own, but I'd love to hear other people's perspectives. >> Charlotte Perkins Gilman wrote several very interesting pieces in the last century, including Herland and "The Yellow Wallpaper." Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:36:37 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Where does Feminist sf Begin? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/28/99 2:45:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, pebedore@SFU.CA writes: << What work(s) do you see as central to/leading to the "birth" of feminist science fiction? >> This is probably going to sound odd, but "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. This was the absolutely first book I ever read (and I had read a lot of books) with a real female hero in it, and lots of "she-her" pronouns. Nothing was ever the same for me again. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:37:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: Where does Feminist sf Begin? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/28/99 5:44:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, Tigerm1019@AOL.COM writes: << Charlotte Perkins Gilman >> Ooh. I forget who wrote "Herland". Was it Charlotte? Somebody help me out here. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:27:03 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Suzy McKee Charnas books for April In-Reply-To: <36FECE6D.337D4805@cas.et.tudelft.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Sharon Clark wrote: > When I checked Amazon.com for the next book in the WALK TO THE END OF > THE WORLD/MOTHERLINES/FURIES series, I saw two titles scheduled for > release in April: > > 1. THE CONQUEROR'S CHILD (listed as "The Conqueror's Child, Vol. 2" @ > Barnes & Noble online) > > and > > 2. THE SLAVE AND THE FREE > > Amazon.com decribes THE CONQUEROR'S CHILD as being the followup book to > the series, but has no description for THE SLAVE AND THE FREE. Does > anyone know if SLAVE is also part of the series? > I think it's a composite of MOTHERLINES & WALK TO THE END OF THE WORLD.> > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:42:15 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: cyber question answered MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who responded, I now have the correct URL and email for Laura! Thanks! Pax, Maryelizabeth - *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 9211 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:21:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Suzy McKee Charnas books for April: well June actually In-Reply-To: <36FECE6D.337D4805@cas.et.tudelft.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Slave and the Free should be Tor's combined edition of Walk to the End of the World and Motherlines. Since The Furies is still in print, they'll have all four of the Holdfast volumes available at once. Buy multiple sets for your friends! The Conqueror's Child has been delayed, however. Originally due out in April and then May, it's now officially due out in June (although copies may be available in late May). I'm currently 1/3 of the way through my review copy of the book and it's quite good although, as you might expect, rather grim. The story, as the title implies, is largely told from the viewpoint of Alldera's long abandoned daughter. Mike Levy Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Sharon Clark wrote: > When I checked Amazon.com for the next book in the WALK TO THE END OF > THE WORLD/MOTHERLINES/FURIES series, I saw two titles scheduled for > release in April: > > 1. THE CONQUEROR'S CHILD (listed as "The Conqueror's Child, Vol. 2" @ > Barnes & Noble online) > > and > > 2. THE SLAVE AND THE FREE > > Amazon.com decribes THE CONQUEROR'S CHILD as being the followup book to > the series, but has no description for THE SLAVE AND THE FREE. Does > anyone know if SLAVE is also part of the series? > > > -Sharon > > P.S. Has anyone else noticed that the "New Releases List" section on > the FSFFU ends with August 1997? And is the site REALLY moving to > feministsf.org, or is that "ALERT!" message meant to keep us in unending > suspense? > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:41:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Where does Feminist sf Begin? In-Reply-To: <7ab0566e.36fee735@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII People looking for the origins of sf in general sometimes stretch a point and go back to Lucan or, a little more believeably, Cyrano de Bergerac or Jonathan Swift. For the origins of feminist sf you could, to stretch a point, go back to the utopian plays of the Duchess of Newcastle in the 17th century. Gilman is the best known of the late 19th, early 20th century women writers who wrote what might be called feminist sf, although there were a few others before her--Mary Griffith's "Three Hundred Years Hence" from 1836; Lydia Maria Child's "Hilda Silfverling" from 1845; "Man's Rights: or, How Would You Like IT?" by Annie Denton Cridge from 1870; or Mary E. Bradley Lane's "Mizora, A Propecy," which depicts an all female society as early as 1880. The standard essay on the topic is "The New World that Eve Made: Feminist Utopias Written by Nineteenth Century Women" by Barbara Quissell which first appeared in America as Utopia edited by Kenneth Roemer. A few genre sf writers of the 1930s, 40s, and 50s also wrote what we can now recognize as feminist sf: C.L. Moore, Judith Merril, Katerine MacLean. In practical terms, however, Feminist SF as a recognizable modern literary movement pretty clearly stems from Russ, LeGuin, and, less explicitly perhaps, Kate Wilhelm. (IMO, of course). Mike Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Demetria M. Shew wrote: > In a message dated 3/28/99 2:45:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, pebedore@SFU.CA > writes: > > << What work(s) do you see as central to/leading to the "birth" of feminist > science fiction? >> > > This is probably going to sound odd, but "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. This > was the absolutely first book I ever read (and I had read a lot of books) with > a real female hero in it, and lots of "she-her" pronouns. Nothing was ever > the same for me again. > > Madrone >