From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sat May 22 19:47:39 1999 Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:43:20 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9904D" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:54:42 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Illicit Passage - Ordering Info In-Reply-To: <371EA813.87C8D811@csulb.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those wishing to obtain copies of _Illicit Passage_, I have been notified that some stocks are still available through an Australian on-line bookshop at the following URL: http://www.thewell.com.au A search for the title should lead you to a "special order" screen, and you should receive a subsequent e-mail within 24 hours telling you of its availability and cost. Approx $Aus14.95 which is roughly $US10, plus postage & shipping costs. Regards - Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:19:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: warning virus]] In-Reply-To: <371EA813.87C8D811@csulb.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please check a virus hoax site before blindly circulating these messages. The following is from the Symantec virus hoax listing < http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html > Description: BUDDYLST.ZIP is not a virus. It is a hoax. The "virus" does not exist. There is currently no virus that has the characteristics ascribed to BUDDYLST.ZIP. It is a sham, meant only to panic new or inexperienced computer users. The hoax message includes the following "warning" in several forms: Form 1: Yesterday a friend of mine called and told me about something that happened to him. He opened his E-mail and this BUDDYLST.ZIP was there. When he opened it his computer crashed and when he tried to re-boot he had lost everything! It was a Virus that os being passed around...........BEWARE! Please forward to as many people as you can so no one will get hurt. These people need to be stopped. Don't download anything form "buddylst.zip" or you will lose all your files. Form 2: A computer virus is going around! It is called BUDDYLST.ZIP! Do not download or some jerk from the internet will get your screen name and password! Please send this to any names you can think of and remember never download BUDDYLST.ZIP Form 3: VIRUS ALERT Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver, the Budweiser Frogs - "BUDDYLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your hard drive will crash and someone from the Internet will get your screen name and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! IT JUST WENT INTO circulation yesterday, as far as we know. Please distribute/inform this message. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. This information was announced yesterday morning from Microsoft. Please share it with everyone that might access the Internet. Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in your address book so at this may be stopped. Also do not open or even look at any mail that says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER". This virus will attach itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately delete mail=A0 items that say this. AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. Please practice cautionary measures and forward this to all you on-line friends ASAP. Please ignore any messages regarding this supposed "virus" and do not pass on any messages regarding it. Passing on messages about this hoax serves only to further propagate it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:49:44 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: BDG Jaran MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I intended to post this for weeks but I always put it off for later so that as usual I am much behind with my contribution to the discussion. I hope people are still interested. While I was not thrilled I enjoyed the book very much and will probable buy the sequels when I have to fly next time across the Atlantic or so. Like others the book made me giggle many times. Nonetheless, I don't think the book so _very_ feminist for the reasons some others have pointed out already, especially because IMO the world/life-style of the women was not presented as appealing compared to that of the men. It reminded me of something I once read about 'feminist' children books: (in my words) by now there are many books in which a girl is accepted into a boy's group, which is certainly a first step towards equality/equal rights, but so far there is none in which a boy is eager to be accepted into a girl's group. Perhaps I am too entrenched in what is policital correct, but was nobody else bothered by that Ilya is some sort of Attila or Genghis Khan, planning to attack Jaran's neighbours? O.k. it was clarified that the neighbours more and more spread out into the area of the Jaran, but is making war really the only solution? Tess did not seem to be bothered either, that the planet is heading into a major war, although that might be because she keeps to their 'primary directive'. And while I am at it. Was there some motivation given for the rebellion of Tess' brother against the Chappali? I cannot remember any. For me that's one of the gaps in the story somebody else mentioned which have to be filled out by the reader. The Chappali are described as alien, but in fact benevolent rulers, introducing new helpful tools and technologies. They certainly disdain the humans. But if there is encroachment or arbitrariness it is at least not mentioned in the text. So, it appears as if Tess' brother instigates a rebellion for freedom only. Not freedom from slavery but freedom from dominion which IMO is not the same. I don't want to devaluate freedom and self-respect. But do you think a rebellion is justified simply because a group/species is ruled by an alien group whose dominion is in general benevolent and which adheres to a set of rules? The Chappali. Their description reminded me of how Europeans and North Americans perceive Asians, especially Japanese and Chinese. The different set of values and rules, difficult to comprehend and to make out, the different ways to loose face, etc. I am bothered - I wear my policital correctness hat again - that they are presented in such an unsympathetic, despising way, so very much from the outside. I am bothered because - as I see it - in real life we will have to live more and more in a multiethnic world with many groups with different habits, values and rules living in the same area. And I don't think it helps if someone alien is only described as alien and never from his or her point of view. Or if for some reason it is not possible to switch to their point of view to describe the alienness in such a phobic way. I am sorry that I cannot express this better. Any comments? Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:46:08 -0400 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Tanith Lee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Can anyone suggest the order for Tanith Lee's Unicorn books? Red, Gold, Black is all, right? Rudy Leon PhD Student Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu (315) 425-8171 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:49:44 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: No, Sheryl, it's not just you! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If it wasn't for the enjoyment of fondling books, etc, I could get by with about 2/3 of the house space we currently occupy. But I like being able to set my hands and eyes upon my books. Thanks for the reminder there are others like me. Pax, Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:57:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: BDG Jaran In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 2000 13:49:44." <199904221150.NAA14011@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> Petra commented that Charles Soerenson rebelled for the sake of "freedom alone" -- I guess I just don't see why that doesn't make sense. (Not a rhetorical question!) I don't remember clearly enough to give specific examples, but humans had been restricted, were not respected, could not attain certain positions...and humans have no legal or activist resource; I get the impression that they're ignored. We can make all kinds of analogies to various kinds of oppression in our own history. At the very beginning of _Jaran_ Tess's friend Sojourner says: "No, I don't hate them. They've proven neither cruel nor harsh as our masters." Tess: "Their grip is soft." Sojourner: "But it chafes." To me, that seems like enough. To be owned is abominable, no matter how kind the master. Remember, the Chapalli call humans "barbarians", and I think their word "daiga" has connotations of being an animal. Does the situation seem different to you? I interpreted the one-sided portrayal of the Chapalli as a relic of the same hostility; as we learn more about them in later books the relationship becomes more complex. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that we see very different interactions between humans and Chapalli (well, one Chapalli) which casts a different light on the whole business. They're more than they appear, and we see that. As a last note, to respond to the person who complained that Tess found riding in the wagons with the women "demeaning" (or something like that): she objected to riding with the women whose tribe "her" people had just destroyed. Who among us would want to sit closely together with the losers of a fight that her people had just won? Quoting again: "Ilya, you never asked me how I wanted to return to camp. You simply left." "But of course--" "--I would travel with the women? With Vera? With Karolla Arkhanov, whose father I begged you to kill? With children whose fathers and brothers are dead? Killed by *your* mne? And then all knowing me as your wife." I don't think this had to do with the "low status" of the women's wagons. I would, however, go along with the idea that this book wasn't explicitly feminist, if that is a meaningful term; it's not so much a prescription for a feminist society as an exploration of what gender and gender roles are. I like that just as much; I know some people don't. In Elliott's Crown of Stars series we see this again: men and women are both equally restricted based on arbitrary "biological" and religious characteristics and rules. But with a twist: women tend the homestead, men fight. So men are war leaders--but women are mayors, heirs to large property, church leaders...men don't rise to such high position. In a line that made me laugh for a long time, we're told that men can't have those roles because "they lack the stabilizing influence of a womb." (We may assume that the word for "hysteria" has a different etymology in this world!) jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:06:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: warning virus]] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the tip. The student who sent the warning to me has proved reliable in the past and I did not know about hoax sites. HScott/PAronoff wrote: > Please check a virus hoax site before blindly circulating these messages. > > The following is from the Symantec virus hoax listing > < http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html > > > Description: > > BUDDYLST.ZIP is not a virus. It is a hoax. The "virus" > does not exist. There is currently no virus that has the > characteristics ascribed to BUDDYLST.ZIP. It is a sham, > meant only to panic new or inexperienced computer users. > > The hoax message includes the following "warning" in > several forms: > > Form 1: > > Yesterday a friend of mine called and told me > about something that happened to him. He opened > his E-mail and this BUDDYLST.ZIP was there. > When he opened it his computer crashed and > when he tried to re-boot he had lost everything! It > was a Virus that os being passed > around...........BEWARE! > > Please forward to as many people as you can so > no one will get hurt. These people need to be > stopped. Don't download anything form > "buddylst.zip" or you will lose all your files. > > Form 2: > > A computer virus is going around! It is called > BUDDYLST.ZIP! Do not download or some jerk > from the internet will get your screen name and > password! Please send this to any names you can > think of and remember never download > BUDDYLST.ZIP > > Form 3: > > VIRUS ALERT > > Someone is sending out a very desirable > screen-saver, the Budweiser Frogs - > "BUDDYLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will > lose everything!!! Your hard drive will crash and > someone from the Internet will get your screen > name and password! > > DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY > CIRCUMSTANCES!!! > > IT JUST WENT INTO circulation yesterday, as > far as we know. Please distribute/inform this > message. > > This is a new, very malicious virus and not many > people know about it. This information was > announced yesterday morning from Microsoft. > Please share it with everyone that might access > the Internet. Once again, pass this along to > EVERYONE in your address book so at this may > be stopped. > > Also do not open or even look at any mail that > says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO > DELIVER". This virus will attach itself to your > computer components and render them useless. > Immediately delete mail=A0 items that say this. > AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus > and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. > Please practice cautionary measures and forward > this to all you on-line friends ASAP. > > Please ignore any messages regarding this supposed > "virus" and do not pass on any messages regarding it. > Passing on messages about this hoax serves only to further > propagate it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: teenagers and sci-fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 21 Apr 99, at 15:31, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > What I tell the students who come up with this is that 1) those wonderful > (generally female) executive secretaries who used to save your fathers' > lives by fixing their lousy English, have almost all taken jobs as > managers and are too busy moving up the corporate ladder to worry about > your problems, Those secretaries, so much a part of the enduring myths about "the old days", rarely existed outside managers' wet dreams. Over the years I've read thousands of documents from the "good old days" and they consist mainly of stock phrases ("...refers", "..and oblige", "ultimo" ...) separated by grammatical monstrosities. Does anyone remember the "writing" and "calculation assistants" of the late 70s/early 80s? For those of you who don't, it was a bright idea someone had for integrating into the business world the large numbers of liberal arts graduates who were then being produced for the sole purpose of raising the education level amongst the unemployed. Instead of wasting his time writing and checking a document, a businessman would produce a rough draft; one or a team of assistants would then turn the draft into a finished, beautifully written, statistics-filled, illustrated report. It worked about as well as you'd expect - not at all. The short-lived system folded before my time , but some of its products were used as horror stories during my Master's course. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:36:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: teenagers and sci-fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'll tell you what else so-called intelligent graduates can't do as well. They can't follow instructions. Applicants invited to attend our interviews this morning were asked to prepare a 30 minute presentation *on diskette* using any "slideshow" program. They were asked to do ALL the work themselves and to take NO MORE than 4 hours over it (we expected them to cheat a *little*). Each applicant had to return a signed copy of the instructions acknowledging that they understood them. But as usual ... one young woman turns up with a set of overhead transparencies with beautifully hand-drawn, cartoon-style, totally inappropriate illustrations. When the panel pointed out her error and read her signed acknowledgment back to her, she burst into tears, said that she and her life-partner had worked on her OHPs for days. But she'd thrown away what she herself described as the job of a lifetime. So I suggest that business writing professors have "ALWAYS FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS" tattooed on their students' foreheads. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:02:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: BDG Jaran MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too finished *Jaran* recently. Jessie Stickgold-Sarah mentioned that we may be getting a distorted view of male/female roles through the viewpoint character, Tess. Because of her own preconceptions and goals, *she* views the Jaran men as more desireable companions. I agree with this, but only so far. Obviously, Tess' goal from the beginning of the book is to travel to Jeds, and the only way she can do this is to accompany the jahar. On that journey she comes to identify with the men and value what they value, so it might be difficult for her to adjust to the world of women when she returns to it. But... there are other signs that this is not a conscious strategy on the part of the author. Tess never shows any signs of being uncomfortable with the Jaran women and it is never indicated that Tess is an "unreliable narrator". I got the impression that her powers of observation were supposed to be quite good and that she was able to get along with just about anyone. So the fact that the narrative is almost entirely moved along by the actions of men and Tess herself, *even when they are among the women*, says to me that the supposedly central power of women is being paid mere lipservice. In this respect, Eleanor Arnason's *Ring of Swords* provides an interesting contrast to *Jaran*. In *Ring of Swords*, the structure of the Hwarhath society is very similar to the Jaran, the women staying at home for the most part and the men roving around in spaceships making war. As in *Jaran*, the women are considered dominant. But in *Ring of Swords* we actually *see* that they are dominant when, near the end, they decide that they cannot leave the problem of humanity to the men and they step in to decide if humans are "people" and whether or not they should be exterminated like vermin. (!) Nothing like that happens in *Jaran*. It is mentioned several times in the book that warfare is the province of men, but I'm sorry, an all-out jihad against the khaja is too important to leave to them alone, particularly when we know that the khaja will not hesitate to kill women. It can be assumed that the Jaran women will have some impact on the course of the war, but it is very clear at the end, when Ilya makes his speech about how "the Jaran are mine now", that power has been shifted to him. Given the society, I don't find that believable. I get the impression that things are explained a little more in the subsequent books, but this novel alone does not convince me. Or am I missing something? On another subject... I could not make sense of the sexual customs in the book. Why, in a society that seemed not to value monogamy at all (as distinguished from marriage), was sexual jealousy such a constant theme? I was particularly bothered by the subplot of Tess' relationship with Kirill. Sure, she has sex with him and clearly cares for him a lot (and vice versa), which is transgressive in a way given that she is also deeply invested in Ilya. But there seems to be an unquestioned assumption on everyone's part that once Tess commits to Ilya and accepts her role as his wife, that she has made a *choice* and that her sexual relationship with Kirill must end. WHY? Frankly, I liked Kirill a lot better than Ilya. He is continually reprimanded by everyone for being too forward with women, but I thought he was much more respectful of Tess than Ilya was. Throughout the book I was amazed at how Ilya's attempts to dominate her were met with surprisingly little disapproval from his fellow Jaran. The pieces didn't fit together. (And I don't buy that his behavior was OK because she was not Jaran -- allowing *her* to break the rules because she is an outsider is not the same as allowing *him* to violate the morals of his own society). This post is coming across as a pan of the book, I know. I did enjoy some aspects of it and may even read some of the sequels some day, particularly if some of the issues I have raised are dealt with in a more satisfactory way. Can someone who has read the sequels give me an idea of what to expect? (Spoilers are OK.) -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Hooverphonic -- Blue Wonder Power Milk "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:01:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: warning virus]] In-Reply-To: <371EA813.87C8D811@csulb.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't know if this virus really exists, but it isn't new, that much I can tell you. I got a warning for this one several years ago. I've never had it sent out to me. Sophia At 09:39 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >Virus warnings from this student of mine have proved reliable in the >past. >Hi Guys: > >Read the following important message!!! > >Subject: Fwd: Fwd: ATT:READ AND PASS ALONG > >******************************************* >Someone is sending out a very desirable screen >saver, the Budweiser Frogs BUDDYLST.ZIP. If you download it, you will > >lose everything on your hard drive, it will crash, and someone from >the Internet will get your name and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD >THIS >UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!! IT JUST WENT INTO CIRCULATION >YESTERDAY. >This is a new very malicious virus and not many people know about it. >This information was announced yesterday morning from MICROSOFT. >Please share it with everyone that might access the Internet. >Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in your address book so that > >this may be stopped. Also do not open or even look at any mail that >says RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER . >This virus will attach itself to your computer components and render >them useless. Immediately delete mail items that say >this. America Online (AOL) has said that this is a very dangerous >virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: SWING VOTE and ESCAPE FROM EARTH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Two two-hour mildly science-fictional presentations got most of my television-viewing attention the other night. One was ABC's near-future Supreme Court-faces-abortion-rights movie SWING VOTE, the other the Discovery Channel's speculative space-exploration quasidocumentary ESCAPE FROM EARTH. SWING VOTE was produced by explosion-movie expert Jerry Bruckheimer, I've just discovered, which explains the hambone performances by nearly all the cast and the sententiousness of the film, in which our hero, the most junior member of the Court, "boldly" speaks out for the children, the "lost" voices in the abortion debate. Andy Garcia chews scenery during the concluding scene, in which we're apparently to be bowled over by his character's supposedly Solomonic compromise, which allows abortion in all states through 20 weeks and requires any state that wishes to restrict them further to provide medical and financial support to the mothers. Among the adult actors, only Harry Belafonte can be said to have given a restrained performance (as one of the two African-American men on the Court, who of course are the libertarian consciences of the court--sound familiar, Justice Thomas?); he seems to be following his daughter Shari into a career in sf films, since the last time I remember seeing him was in the better, similarly "worthily serious" WHITE MAN'S BURDEN. Robert Prosky's performance as the power-grasping, manipulative Chief Justice was the only focus for pointed satire in this script; the lines of the advocates for various positions around the issue were particularly poorly written (and in the case of Garcia's character's adopted daughter's biological mother, notably poorly acted); Margaret Colin's role was nearly as thankless as the insult delivered to her by INDEPENDENCE DAY. ESCAPE FROM EARTH was an intermittently interesting wrap-up of near-future potential space travel, most of it, of course, within our solar system. Enactments of what space-travel will be like added the mildly fictional aspects to the presentation, For some reason, the space travel sequences were made to look like nothing so much as today's US prisoners working telephone solicitation. Also notable was the tendency for the women actresses to be conventionally pretty, the men to range more naturally from beefcake to potato...perhaps so as to not appear too distinct from the range of (male) astronomers who were also onscreen for interview segments. The best part of the show, though, involved the occasionally repetitive use of the NASA or NASA-like animation of the planets, etc., we've all come to love. Remarkable how our sensible artists and engineers (going back at least as far as Chesley Bonestell and Willy Ley's speculations in the 1950s) keep thinking our vehicles will have the elongnated capsule-style fuel tanks clustered around the main bodies of the future ships, and thus far at least, they never quite do. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: teenagers and sci-fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might be right about would-be writers thinking about money/screenplays, but it might also just be a scary trend. For years, this wilfull ignorance of the field has been observed in budding poets. Sheryl -----Original Message----- From: Lesley Hall To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] teenagers and sci-fi >>I have heard (from teachers of SF writing) that they see increasing >>numbers of would-be writers who *do not* read and *have not* read. >>They know few mainstream writers, and even few SF writers, and >>are ignorant of the history of the genre. > >I don't understand this: why would people want to write books if they don't >read them? (Maybe it's the very occasional megabucks advances some writers >get? - the ones that get reported in the media - because I wouldn't have >expected anyone to pick on writing books - presumably we are talking fiction >here? - as a reliable way of making money). Or are the wouldbe writers >thinking screenplays and TV rather than print? >Lesley Hall >lesleyah@primex.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:18:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: teenagers and sci-fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The excuse I got from business lecturers in Britain was "It doesn't matter if >our students can't write good English, provided you can work out what they >mean. A secretary can always tidy up their writing. We don't like to prescribe >rules to students because it stifles their imagination and initiative". I >wonder whether this excuse is also used in the US. > > >AJ >Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) Yes, although less now than in the past. I taught "Business Writing" last year, and the textbook I used was careful to point out that expecting one's secretary--assuming that a secretary is provided--to spend his/her valuable time "tidying up" one's basic English is wasteful of a company's time and money. The same book also mentioned that the most common reason the five largest accounting firms in the U.S. fire their newly-hired accountants is inability to communicate clearly in writing. And as an aside, I might also say that it is a mistake to assume that the secretary will be able to write any better than the boss does. Sheryl > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: teenagers and sci-fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I realize we're getting farther and farther off topic, but I can't resist: I teach the pre-freshman comp class, as you may or may not recall. A friend of mine who will teach this class next semester commented that she thinks spelling is not too important (she's a poet, and many poets have told me this) "because the spellchecker can catch that stuff." I simply smiled and showed her my collection of actual student sentences from this semester alone, including these-- "Marriage concealing is an excellent way for couples to work out their problems." (counseling) "Pear presser is the main reason kids start smoking cigarettes." (I have to cheat here and add one from last semester: "adolescents' lives get more complex when they get older and begin to associate with piers.") and "Lots of my friends have different onions on device." (opinions, and divorce) Is everyone in a good mood now? Sheryl Original Message----- From: Pat To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] teenagers and sci-fi >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > >> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:31:13 -0500 >> >> >> What I tell the students who come up with this is that 1) those wonderful >> (generally female) executive secretaries who used to save your fathers' >> lives by fixing their lousy English, have almost all taken jobs as managers >> and are too busy moving up the corporate ladder to worry about your >> problems, > > YES! > > 2) the secretaries who are left are, with a few exceptions, not >> particularly good writers > > Some, like their bosses, are nearly illiterate, and I've run into >a few admin. assistants at the University whose English is plainly a >second language/ > >> idiot spell-check and grammar programs, none of which will catch more than >> approximately 80% of the errors in a given piece of writing. >> > There's a poem about spell-checkers. Uses a lot of homynyms to >great comic effect. I, of course, being a witch, always use one.> > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:07:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: teragram Subject: Re: the evils of spell checkers In-Reply-To: <008901be8d07$2238fc40$a4a6c0d8@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I realize we're getting farther and farther off topic, but I can't resist: Ditto. My favorite was on a resume - "working knowledge of pigeon sign language" hee. Such beautiful imagery. >"Marriage concealing is an excellent way for couples to work out their >problems." >(counseling) > >"Pear presser is the main reason kids start smoking cigarettes." >(I have to cheat here and add one from last semester: "adolescents' lives >get more complex when they get older and begin to associate with piers.") >and > >"Lots of my friends have different onions on device." (opinions, and >divorce) > >Is everyone in a good mood now? > >Sheryl > >Original Message----- >From: Pat >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 5:05 PM >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] teenagers and sci-fi > > >>On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Michael Marc Levy wrote: >> >>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:31:13 -0500 >>> >>> >>> What I tell the students who come up with this is that 1) those wonderful >>> (generally female) executive secretaries who used to save your fathers' >>> lives by fixing their lousy English, have almost all taken jobs as >managers >>> and are too busy moving up the corporate ladder to worry about your >>> problems, >> >> YES! >> >> 2) the secretaries who are left are, with a few exceptions, not >>> particularly good writers >> >> Some, like their bosses, are nearly illiterate, and I've run into >>a few admin. assistants at the University whose English is plainly a >>second language/ >> >>> idiot spell-check and grammar programs, none of which will catch more >than >>> approximately 80% of the errors in a given piece of writing. >>> >> There's a poem about spell-checkers. Uses a lot of homynyms to >>great comic effect. I, of course, being a witch, always use one.> >> >>Patricia (Pat) Mathews >>mathews@unm.edu *************** All paradises are lost. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:06:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: teenagers and sci-fi In-Reply-To: <008901be8d07$2238fc40$a4a6c0d8@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage wrote: > I realize we're getting farther and farther off topic, but I can't resist: > I teach the pre-freshman comp class, as you may or may not recall. A friend > of mine who will teach this class next semester commented that she thinks > spelling is not too important (she's a poet, and many poets have told me > this) "because the spellchecker can catch that stuff." I simply smiled and > showed her my collection of actual student sentences from this semester > alone, including these-- > > "Marriage concealing is an excellent way for couples to work out their > problems." > (counseling) > > Sheryl I hope we're on the list where it's okay to be off topic. I still haven't figured out which is which entirely. My best student spelling error is the following: "He asked me to dance for a minuet." Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:05:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Off Topic: PBS anti-feminist series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This has been posted on at least three other feminist lists. I thought list members here might find it interesting. Kathleen FAIR-L Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting Media analysis, critiques and news reports ACTION ALERT: WHERE GENDER ISSUES ARE CONCERNED, DOES PBS STAND FOR "PROMOTING BIASED STORIES"? April 16, 1999 It might as well. Throughout April, the PBS program "National Desk" is presenting a three-part series on "the gender wars," in which they aim to address "whether the advancement of women in virtually all areas of society can be achieved without a retreat, in some way, on the part of men." This manipulative framing of gender politics is clear throughout the first installment of the series, "The War on Boys," which opens with the following quote: "If we don't start changing how we treat our boys, we are going to be heading toward Gender Armageddon." Hosted by omnipresent right-wing pundit Fred Barnes and underwritten by the right-wing John M. Olin, Lynde and Harry Bradley, and Sarah Scaife Foundations, the program showcases undocumented conservative commentary by right-wing ideologues and pundits. Worse, many of these critics are on the payroll of the same foundations bankrolling this slanted series - for example, "The War on Boys" relies heavily on the opinions of conservative author Christina Hoff Sommers, who was paid six figures by the Olin and Bradley Foundations to publish the antifeminist tract, Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women. The second part of the series, on "Politics and Warriors: Women in the Military," due to air on April 16th, will be hosted by arch-conservative pundit Laura Ingraham, who already has her own program on cable channel MSNBC. And the title of the third segment, which will air on April 23rd, illustrates the bias inherent in the series: it's called "Title IX and Women in Sports: What's Wrong With This Picture?" Hosted by another conservative - talk show host and columnist Larry Elder - this episode attacks the federal law designed to ensure equal access to education and extracurricular activities. Among the dubious assertions of the series (as well as in the National Desk's publicity materials) is the idea that "despite all good intentions" by larger society to solve sexist injustice, "some things have gone terribly wrong" - and feminism is now leading our culture down a "dangerous path" to female dominance and male subordination. National Desk's "gender wars" series is based upon a seriously deficient definition of human rights: one in which there aren't enough human rights to go around, and if women want their fair share, men naturally have to buckle under. The American Association of University Women (AAUW), much maligned in the series, dispute this zero-sum game understanding of gender issues. According to AAUW Association Director Amy Swauger, "We don't think pitting boys against girls to determine who is the biggest loser is the way to help children get a good education. This is not a war anyone wants to win." No one, that is, except the conservatives funding a massive campaign to roll back gender equity laws and retract the gains that women and girls have achieved in the last thirty years. Want to know why a group of right-wing foundations are allowed to not only buy airtime for this series but also supply "experts" already on their payroll? How about why the so-called "alternative" public broadcasting network refused to find a single host who does not already have a regular media platform? Interested in finding out if or when PBS plans to offer a series about gender issues hosted by feminists? *** ACTION: One person who should have those answers is Ervin Duggan, president and CEO of PBS. You can call him at 703-739-5015, and fax letters to 703-739-0775. Let Duggan know that it is not feminism, but PBS programming, that has "gone terribly wrong." You can find email contacts, phone numbers, and mailing addresses for your local PBS station at: http://www.pbs.org/voice/ Relevant links: FAIR Resources on PBS http://www.fair.org/media-outlets/pbs.html "The "Stolen Feminism" Hoax: Anti-Feminist Attack Based on Error-Filled Anecdotes" (from Extra!) http://www.fair.org/extra/9409/stolen-feminism-hoax.html ---------- Feel free to respond to FAIR ( fair@fair.org ). We can't reply to everything, but we will look at each message. We especially appreciate documented example of media bias or censorship. All messages to the 'FAIR-L' list will be forwarded to the editor of the list. Also, please send copies of email correspondence, including any responses, to us at: fair@fair.org . Feel free to spread this message around. Put it on conferences where it is appropriate. We depend on word of mouth to get our message out, so please let others know about FAIR and this mailing list. -- ********************************************************* Penney Kome, kome@home.com author & journalist. Latest book: Wounded Workers: The Politics of Musculoskeletal Injuries website: http://www.members.home.net/kome ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:18:54 EDT Reply-To: Tlwinslow@aol.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: The Columbine HS tragedy: it can truly happen on any planet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Note: This sci-fi short story is a thinly disguised attempt to get into the heads of the students involved in the Columbine HS tragedy and make sense of it. It is not 'kosher feminist sci-fi', but its deep philosophical reflections are universal. I'm giving it out for free now rather than wait months for a magazine of some kind to publish it and pay me 50 bucks or something :) Word count: 1350 The Facemask Mafia and the Real Score ----------------------------------------------------------- by T.L. Winslow tlwinslow.virtualave.net members.aol.com/tlwinslow tlwinslow@aol.com It was a warm day for Thaw up here at the foot of the Mlotlxi, in my laid-back front-range town of Fmoolxi. The nearby purple-rock formations of Sloxmi Park and Magenta Rocks Ampitheatre are like pews in a giant's church, framed by the sixty-thousand-foot peaks visible on clear days to the south and west, especially Wunxidi Peak directly to the south, by faraway Yugxilimi. You always know which way west is. It's where the mountain range is, going north and south like a curtain of rocks, ending the vast Great Swamp with a finality of Gods. You know you are special, because only the affluent can afford to live here. The herd of the poor live down south and east in nearby Tlowxmawi -- less clear view of the mountains, more swamp pollution; all the big city problems, including poorer schools. Only twenty-seven more days of school left and then I graduate. This summer will be the best of my life, one big party, before I pack off to college, and a new life; my first time away from my parents. I love my schoolmates. We study so hard, even during lunch hour, above the cafeteria in the library. Here comes Mstiflxa now. "Hi Mstiflxa! How are ya?" "Fine, friend." We touched. Then a mean collimated guy in a striped facemask shouts, "Here's a gunzaga!" and shoots Mstiflxa in the face. He shot my collimated pal too. He shot at me but missed. Must have been because he went for the body instead of the face. I guess I believe in angels now. I played dead. Not that it was hard to do. It was either that, or be dead for real. I prefer play acting to the real thing myself. It can be uncomfortable, but when laying with real, bloody corpses that used to be your friends, you don't notice; you appreciate the difference. I knew the shooter. He was a member of the local facemask mafia, the FMM. He was crazy. Smart, but hated school. He was getting even with it, and I was at the wrong place at the wrong time. No, I was lucky. I had the right face at the right time. Collimated face. The reason I didn't get shot in the face. It passed. It got a Maximum. Mstiflxa's face flunked. It got a Minimum. Dead. I loved Mstiflxa. He was the kind of a guy that everybody liked, the kind with no enemies. But he had a striped face, and there was nothing he could do about that when the devil came to the library looking for souls. His whole life should have been about that moment somehow. We will not let it be, can't let it be. Is that it? Spot check: striped face: bang: you're dead? I understand striped rage now. I understand their pain now. I walked a mile in their faces: the mile from the chair to the floor. When the coast was clear and the survivors ran for it, the west exit and the mountains promised safety. But the soul of one gunzaga shines the way forever for me now. I had bits and pieces of Mstiflxa's blood and flesh on me as I lay there, playing dead. I was pretending I had a striped face, and all I had to do was lie still. They shot his face off. He was a manikin with his face missing, and my face was now carrying bits of it. That's the power of blasters, to shoot faces off. They will never kill the soul. The FMM shooter was wearing a striped facemask. Funny I couldn't have returned the favor if I was packing. Nobody in that school packed, like in Tlowxmawi's First High or Second High, where the predominantly Thinstriped and Thickstriped population, respectively, has turned the schools into primeval jungles, where few study, go to the library, or even graduate. At least, if the FMM came to their schools, they would have made short work of them. We at Near-Purple were mainly collimated, and like collimated food-whales, were slaughtered without resistance. Funny, but a bill was even then in the State Legislature to permit people to pack concealed weapons; the FMM publicity caused it to be withdrawn immediately. What is my stand now on private ownership of blasters and explosives? I truly don't know. I can't think straight anymore. If only the bad guys have them, then what? If everybody has to carry them for self-protection, then what? There is no easy solution, sorry. God himself is testing us all, and there can't be a legislative-only solution. The FMM were said to have been neo-Grrs, commemorating Grrruwxr's birthday, 20 Gox. If so, Grrruwxr is getting some pretty dumb recruits these days, else why didn't they go to a predominantly striped school instead of scour ours for one striped face, and then slaughter a dozen collimateds too? Grrruwxr must be rolling in his grave. No, strike that, he has no grave to roll in. There couldn't be one handful of mud on our homeplanet that would be left alone if his remains were buried in it. Two days later a big meteor snowstorm moved in, covering saint and sinner alike with a blanket of collimated ash. God forgives. People can try. But only if they understand. Why? What was the point? Two collimateds, by all accounts bright, and from affluent families. Great futures ahead of them, because they were collimated. They chose to play a video game of Death on their classmates and teachers, and end their lives after running out of ammo or victims, whichever. What kind of parents would let their moral values degenerate to the point where real people and video sprites could be equated? Didn't they ever take them to church? Spank them? Watch what they were doing, who their friends were, what they were saying? They ran a publication telling the world what they were planning to do, for love's sake. Was it the Jubilee? The year Jubilee Minus One? Every Jubilee does things to people. Call it the Jubilee Fever. It happened in the year before the last Jubilee, and will probably happen again in the year before the next. Seers predicted it. Sacred Book fundamentalists predicted it. Worse, they predict a much hotter time for this beautiful planet, and now I think they will not be disappointed. There are a lot more high schools than I would like to count. Theaters. Stadiums. Churches. Auditoriums. Arenas. It makes me cry to think of even one more person shot in the face because it was the bad-guy's coloration in a video game from Hell. Why did the shooters act so happy, even delighted, as they shot people like video game sprites? If they believed in God, they knew they weren't going to heaven now. If they believed in the Devil, maybe they thought they would be taking their 'scores' with them to Hell, and be set up over them as their rulers. But that presupposes their victims would be going to Hell, not somewhere else. They might found out they were sadly mistaken. What does killing a video sprite do? Nothing except change the score. What does killing a real person do? It kills their future, their family, their classmates, more scores than anybody but God can tally. And it changes the score of the shooter to negative infinity. In case you don't know, nothing they can add to it can change it now: it stays negative infinity forever after that. I believe in angels. What are angels? Where was Mstiflxa's angel? Are angels only for collimated faces? I can't understand. Maybe Mstiflxa is himself an angel now. If so, I know he'll be transformed into a creature of pure light, blinding collimated light. Unlike mortals, which only reflect light, angels give it off. Maybe that's where all collimated racism comes from. They look at what reflects off somebody, rather than what shines from them. It's easier to point and shoot that way. THE END © 1999 by T.L. Winslow. All Rights Reserved. Permission to reprint granted provided that this copyright notice is kept intact. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: (Fwd) Hugo Awards Nominations]] Comments: cc: HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since I haven't seen this come through the Feminist SF or Horror lists (a thin year for horrorites at the WorldCon, it looks), here is the forward Lib o' Congress's SF-Lit received: From: Joe Karpierz on 04/23/99 01:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT @SMTP@EXCHANGE To all: Here's the list of this year's Hugo Nominations. Enjoy. > > Hugo Awards Nominations > > Aussiecon 3, the 57th annual World Science Fiction Convention, has released > this year's nominations for the Hugo Awards and the John W. Campbell Award > for Best New Writer. Winners will be announced at the convention in > Melbourne, Australia, Sept. 2 - 6, 1999. > > Best Novel > * Children of God, Mary Doria Russell (Villard) > * Darwinia, Robert Charles Wilson (Tor) > * Distraction, Bruce Sterling (Bantam Spectra) > * Factoring Humanity, Robert J. Sawyer (Tor) > * To Say Nothing of the Dog, Connie Willis (Bantam Spectra) > > Best Novella > * "Aurora in Four Voices", Catherine Asaro (Analog, Dec 1998) > * "Get Me to the Church On Time", Terry Bisson (Asimov's, May 1998) > * "Oceanic", Greg Egan (Asimov's, Aug 1998) > * "Story of Your Life", Ted Chiang (Starlight 2, Tor, Nov 1998) > * "The Summer Isles", Ian R. MacLeod (Asimov's, Oct/Nov 1998) > > Best Novelette > * "Divided by Infinity", Robert Charles Wilson (Starlight 2, Tor, > Nov 1998) > * "Echea", Kristine Kathryn Rusch (Asimov's, Jul 1998) > * "The Planck Dive", Greg Egan (Asimov's, Feb 1998) > * "Steamship Soldier on the Information Front", Nancy Kress (Future > Histories 1997; Asimov's, Apr 1998) > * "Taklamakan", Bruce Sterling (Asimov's, Oct/Nov 1998) > * "Time Gypsy", Ellen Klages (Bending the Landscape: Science Fiction > Overlook, Sep 1998) > * "Zwarte Piet's Tale", Allen Steele (Analog, Dec 1998) > > Best Short Story > * "Cosmic Corkscrew", Michael A. Burstein (Analog, Jun 1998) > * "Maneki Neko", Bruce Sterling (F&SF, May 1998) > * "Radiant Doors", Michael Swanwick (Asimov's, Sep 1998) > * "The Very Pulse of the Machine", Michael Swanwick (Asimov's, Feb > 1998) > * "Whiptail", Robert Reed (Asimov's, Oct/Nov 1998) > * "Wild Minds", Michael Swanwick (Asimov's, May 1998) > > Best Related Book > * The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of: How Science Fiction Conquered the > World, Thomas M. Disch (The Free Press) > * Hugo, Nebula & World Fantasy Awards, Howard DeVore (Advent:Publishers) > * Science-Fiction: The Gernsback Years, Everett F. Bleiler (Kent State > University Press) > * Spectrum 5: The Best in Contemporary Fantastic Art, Cathy Fenner & > Arnie Fenner, eds. (Underwood Books) > * The Works of Jack Williamson: An Annotated Bibliography and Guide, > Richard A. Hauptmann (The NESFA Press) > > Best Dramatic Presentation > * Babylon 5: "Sleeping in Light" > * Dark City > * Pleasantville > * Star Trek: Insurrection > * The Truman Show > > Best Professional Editor > * Gardner Dozois > * Scott Edelman > * David G. Hartwell > * Patrick Nielsen Hayden > * Stanley Schmidt > * Gordon Van Gelder > > Best Professional Artist > * Jim Burns > * Bob Eggleton > * Donato Giancola > * Don Maitz > * Nick Stathopoulos > * Michael Whelan > > Best Semiprozine > * Interzone, David Pringle, ed. > * Locus, Charles N. Brown, ed. > * The New York Review of Science Fiction, Kathryn Cramer, Ariel Haméon, > David G. Hartwell & Kevin Maroney, eds. > * Science Fiction Chronicle, Andrew I. Porter, ed. > * Speculations, Kent Brewster, ed. > > Best Fanzine > * Ansible, Dave Langford, ed. > * File 770, Mike Glyer, ed. > * Mimosa, Richard & Nikki Lynch, eds. > * Plokta, Alison Scott & Steve Davies, eds. > * Tangent, David A. Truesdale, ed. > * Thyme, Alan Stewart, ed. > > Best Fan Writer > * Bob Devney > * Mike Glyer > * Dave Langford > * Evelyn C. Leeper > * Maureen Kincaid Speller > > Best Fan Artist > * Freddie Bauer > * Brad Foster > * Ian Gunn > * Teddy Harvia > * Joe Mayhew > * D. West > > John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer (Not a Hugo) > * Kage Baker* > * Julie E. Czerneda* > * Nalo Hopkinson* > * Susan R. Matthews* > * James Van Pelt* > > * denotes second year of eligibility -- ;,//;, ,;/ | Joe Karpierz . o:::::::;;/// | karpierz@inil.com >::::::::;;\\\ | ''\\\\\'" ';\ | "This journey is ended. Another begins. Time to rest now." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:55:10 EDT Reply-To: Unovissf@aol.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: teenagers and sci-fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/23/99 12:09:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, levymm@UWEC.EDU writes: << I hope we're on the list where it's okay to be off topic. I still haven't figured out which is which entirely. >> I've been away from my computers for over a month, and most of my backlogged mail for this address was eaten: Have the lists changed? Are there two lists now, one that's on topic and one OT? Please let me know: if the current list is the OT one, I want to dump it now. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:45:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Richard Holmes Subject: Selections for May and beyond? Hi, Does anyone know what the May selection is? I tried the website (http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/bdg/) and (http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4667/bdg_nom.html) but appear to be not finding this info... Thanks!!! -Richard (rholmes@ccrma.stanford.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:04:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Next BDG discussion (Grass) starts Monday on new list Comments: To: feministsf-lit@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Next Monday we begin discussion of our May BDG selection, Sheri Tepper's _Grass_. Please note this discussion will take place on the new FeministSF-Lit list, not the original list. I am cross-posting this reminder to both lists, but the discussion itself will only be on the new list. If you haven't signed up for it yet, please do! See for information. Before then I thought it might be helpful to review a few points about the discussion. As I've said before, these are just rules we made up. If you have ideas for improvement, or even just complaints, please email me! Stay tuned for info about a fabulous updated BDG web site. The book discussion group's objective is to focus discussion on a particular book at a particular time to get as many people participating and enjoying the group as possible. It's not meant to change the nature of the list, just focus the discussion. New book discussions begin monthly on the first Monday of the month, directly on the FeminstSF-lit list. Other works can of course be discussed at the same time on the list. Also, it's fine to discuss a book before the scheduled date, just remember to include spoilers in your early postings. If you want to initiate discussion about a book the group has already discussed that's OK as well, but it's polite to look through the archives first. Book group discussion messages should include the string "BDG" (for Book Discussion Group) in the subject. It would also be helpful to include the title or initials of the title in the subject, so that particularly enthusiastic discussions can spill over into the next month. Spoiler disclaimers are not necessary once discussion has begun. Members are encouraged to follow the general list rules such as quoting only the necessary parts of original messages in responses to reduce excess bandwidth. Discussion can be literary and theoretical or more concrete discussions about plot or character development. There's enough of a mix of people on the list that we can each participate in the aspects that interest us and ignore those aspects that don't. Remember, the group's purpose is to encourage rather than discourage discussion. Members (that's you!) are encouraged to suggest a bibliography of essays or other works pertaining to the book currently under discussion or the following month's book. Upcoming discussions: June 7 Nicola Griffith: Slow River July 5 Connie Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog Aug 2 Octavia Butler: Wild Seed Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:30:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: BDG Jaran Petra Mayerhofer said: >>Perhaps I am too entrenched in what is policital correct, but was nobody else bothered by that Ilya is some sort of Attila or Genghis Khan, planning to attack Jaran's neighbours? O.k. it was clarified that the neighbours more and more spread out into the area of the Jaran, but is making war really the only solution? Tess did not seem to be bothered either, that the planet is heading into a major war, although that might be because she keeps to their 'primary directive'.<< This is also my concern. It might be that Elliot makes Ilya's jihad more acceptable in sequels, she may even make him more likeable (I don't see how) but I think a book, even part of a series, especially the first part of a series, should be more self contained. Saying all will be explained in the second or third sequel seems to be a bit of a cop out. I can see a continuation of the story line in latter books, but the first should give a more basic sense of the people and societies explored. Janice E. Dawley said >>On another subject... I could not make sense of the sexual customs in the book. Why, in a society that seemed not to value monogamy at all (as distinguished from marriage), was sexual jealousy such a constant theme? I was particularly bothered by the subplot of Tess' relationship with Kirill. Sure, she has sex with him and clearly cares for him a lot (and vice versa), which is transgressive in a way given that she is also deeply invested in Ilya. But there seems to be an unquestioned assumption on everyone's part that once Tess commits to Ilya and accepts her role as his wife, that she has made a *choice* and that her sexual relationship with Kirill must end. WHY? Frankly, I liked Kirill a lot better than Ilya. He is continually reprimanded by everyone for being too forward with women, but I thought he was much more respectful of Tess than Ilya was. << I couldn't say it better. Multiple sexual partners were allowed, but discretion is so important the book seemed to view sex both as completely acceptable and forbidden fruit at the same time. The whole situation of Krill and his new wife and people not knowing that he and Tess had a previous relationship, much less a continuing one, just didn't ring true. I don't think we should make a god of consistency, but this aspect was very annoying to me. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:12:54 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: New BDG website Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-lit@listserv.uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT As Jennifer has already indicated we have created a new BDG website as an in-between till the feministsf.org website is operational. You can find the BDG guidelines, the schedule of upcoming books, the archives of past discussions (from _Ammonite_ to _A Fisher of the Inland Sea_ !!!) (a big thank you to Janice Dawley) and the last two nomination lists at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/index.html Comments and suggestions are very welcome! As Jennifer has already pointed out from the next book on the BDG discussion will be conducted on the feministsf-lit list, while the BDG Jaran discussion will remain till finished on the feministsf list. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:03:02 -0400 Reply-To: Kate.Elliott@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alis Rasmussen Subject: BDG: Jaran MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've read the BDG discussion of Jaran with interest. It's unusual, I think, for an author to have a chance to eavesdrop on a frank discussion of her work. So often honest opinion gets muted by the habitual ^Ñniceness' that is part of the cultural upbringing of women in our society (well, maybe you all escaped its bitter chains, but I sure didn't). Most of the issues raised were quite ably addressed by various of the respondents, sometimes with better rationales than I might have come up with! I love the term ^Ñstealth feminism,' and would be happy to think that my work fell into such a category. I imagine that most writers, looking back on a book they had published seven years ago, will find infelicities in the text, elements of clumsy execution, or even scenes they now find unreadable. That's certainly true for me with Jaran. There are paragraphs and passages that no longer pass my ^Ñwince test' (i.e., do I wince when I'm reading it?), but I consider it part of the natural evolution of a writer that she improves over time and that therefore earlier works might not be as sophisticated, well-written, and seamless as the later ones we all hope to write someday. Interestingly, there is one scene that I now quite dislike: the ^Ñmock-rape' scene. I know why I put it in, and what points I wanted to make with it, but in retrospect I wish I'd handled it differently. Maybe it would be most correct to say that I wish I'd had the skills then to convey those points with more subtlety and less need to borrow from noxious (but hopefully outmoded) literary conventions. That aside, I think the book accomplishes what it sets out to do. I wouldn't write Jaran now, so I'm glad I wrote it then, because it is the story it's meant to be, no more and no less. It is what my friend and colleague Katharine Kerr calls ^Ñlurid adventure fiction,' owing more to H. Rider Haggard and Edgar Rice Burroughs than to, say, Ursula K. Le Guin (whose work, I feel constrained to add, has been a great inspiration to me), tossed up with a spicing of Jane Austen and Dorothy Sayers and, of course, the movie Lawrence of Arabia. If anyone has any questions, or would like me to respond to specific issues raised in the discussion, please let me know either here or via email. Otherwise: thanks! Best, Alis Rasmussen (aka Kate Elliott) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:18:58 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Recent reading - April Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Again my month's reading. Except for the Elliott & Park books, what you see are all books I picked up in airport bookshops where the choice was invariably limited. Someone suggested offlist that I tend to be down on books with lots of sex; that's not really true except that too much sex disturbs the flow of the story and naturally reduces my enjoyment. Bacon-Smith, Camille : _Eyes of the Demon_ (*****), _Eyes of the Empress_ (****-) (mystery/fantasy) Briggs, Patricia: _When Demons Walk_ (****-) (mystery/fantasy) Elliott, Kate : _Jaran_ (*****) Forsyth, Kate : The Witches of Eileanan (*----) Park, Severna: _Speaking Dreams_ (*----), _Hand of Prophecy_ (*----) Patton, Fiona: _The Painter Knight_ (*----) Routley, Jane : _Mage Heart_ (****-),_Fire Angels_ (***--) West, Michelle: Hunter's Oath_ (***--), _Hunter's Death_ (***--) I've also read Harry Turtledove's _Into the Darkness_ (ugh - this from the writer of the magnificent _Agent of Byzantium_?) and Plichta's _God's Secret Formula : Deciphering the Riddle of the Universe and the Prime Number Code_ (pompous but good for a laugh). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:37:25 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Recent reading - April Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Mike wrote: > Bacon-Smith, Camille : _Eyes of the Demon_ (*****), _Eyes of the > Empress_(****-) (mystery/fantasy) > Elliott, Kate : _Jaran_ (*****) > Park, Severna: _Speaking Dreams_ (*----), _Hand of Prophecy_ (*----) I don't know how you can give Jaran 5 stars and Severna Park's beautiful Speaking Dreams only 1 star. In your other posting you only gave Jaran 4 stars, how come the change? I've only just started reading feminist science fiction, but even I know that Speaking Dreams is worth a lot more than 1 star which youve said means you don't think a book's worth reading. Don't you think it's unfair? Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:24:17 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Recent reading - April Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 27 Apr 99, at 13:37, Ruth t wrote: > I don't know how you can give Jaran 5 stars and Severna Park's > beautiful Speaking Dreams only 1 star. In your other posting you only gave > Jaran 4 stars, how come the change? The rating reflects my personal taste in feminist sf/f and indicates how much I *enjoyed* the book. I thought that _Jaran_ was well-written, outward-looking, had "realistic" characters and setting, and a very good plot. Most importantly, the book moves briskly and the interaction between the characters enhances, rather than slows the action. I've read the comments "Kate Elliott" made; she's clearly her own most severe critic. But although I agreed with her to a limited extent, none of the so-called flaws affected my enjoyment in the slightest. The change in rating was a result of re-reading the book. _Speaking dreams_ on the other is a well-written, but inwardly-focused and very static book. The (admittedly very well-drawn) universe is little more than a frame into which the somewhat sado-masochistic affair between the slave and her mistress is fitted. The interaction between these two characters, I found, slowed the action to a snail's pace at times. The book struck me as a Harlequin romance transposed to a sci-fi/fantasy setting and, just as in Harlequins, the action proceeded by poorly-defined fits and starts against the tortured, steamy love affair between the main characters. This doesn't mean that it was a "bad" book or that nobody else would enjoy it - it simply means that the book wasn't to *my* taste. > I've only just started reading feminist science fiction, but even I > know that Speaking Dreams is worth a lot more than 1 star which youve said > means you don't think a book's worth reading. Don't you think it's unfair? No I don't think so. *For me*, the book was a waste of time because I find ***fictional*** steamy passion in other than small doses pretty boring . But for anyone who's fascinated by passions generated between characters then _Speaking Dreams_ would, no doubt, have been very enjoyable. If you look at the other books I enjoyed or disliked, you'll find the same dichotomy. If I had to make a stark choice between "plot" and "character" I'd go for "plot" everytime; fortunately with Elliott's book one gets the best of both worlds. I don't know which target markets the two authors aimed at, but Park appears to be writing for a niche market within the already relatively small feminist romantic sf/f market, while Elliott has a much broader-based, more mainstream appeal. I've actually just ordered the rest of Elliott's books - so I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:26:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Seeing Ear Theater makes its pitch to public radio... Comments: To: sf-lit , HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Comments: cc: Melissa Holt , Virginia Ely , Frederic Bush , Tia Hamilton , Matthew Connors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Unfortunate, perhaps, that they're trying to sell them in half-hour segments--wating a week for story-conclusions won't help their impact. I've heard most of the plays listed below, and can give them all (except the first Bisson, which I haven't heard) at least a qualified recommendation (Real Audio users will find all of these and more at the Dominion site, run for the Skiffy Channel--some of the older dramas average a bit better, some a lot worse). Seeing Ear Theatre on National Public Radio! On April 20th, Seeing Ear Theatre debuts on National Public Radio's NPR Playhouse series. For 13 weeks, Seeing Ear Theatre presents an all-new anthology series of contemporary, thought-provoking science-fiction radio dramas. Seeing Ear Theatre aims to re-define what radio drama can be, bringing modern stories, sounds, themes, and styles to a medium long considered "old-fashioned." But we need your help! Please contact your local NPR affiliate and ask them to carry SCI FI Channel's Seeing Ear Theatre. -Seeing Ear Theatre NPR Schedule- April 20 - "Three Odd Comedies"- written by Hugo-Award winning author Terry Bisson April 27 - "A Clean Escape" - written by Nebula-Award winning author John Kessel May 4 - "Into the Sun" - written by Brian Smith "The Bigger One" - written by Nebula-Award winning author Gregory Benford May 11 - "George and the Red Giant" Part 1 of 2 - written by Eric Brown; based on a story by Stephen Baxter. May 18 - "George and the Red Giant" Part 2 of 2 - written by Eric Brown; based on a story by Stephen Baxter. May 25 - "The Death of Captain Future" Part 1 of 2 - written by Hugo-Award winning author Allen Steele. June 1 - "The Death of Captain Future" Part 2 of 2 - written by Hugo-Award winning author Allen Steele. June 8 - "The Flat Edge of the Earth" Part 1 of 2 - written by Brian Smith and Terry Bisson. June 15 - "The Flat Edge of the Earth" Part 2 of 2 - written by Brian Smith and Terry Bisson. June 22 - "Think Like a Dinosaur" Part 1 of 2 - written by Hugo-Award winning author James P. Kelly. June 29 - "Think Like a Dinosaur" Part 2 of 2 - written by Hugo-Award winning author James P. Kelly. "Too Late: An Experiment in Sound Theatre" - written by Rick Bradley, Brian Smith, and George Zarr July 6 - "Orson the Alien!" part 1 of 2 - written by Terry Bisson, Brian Smith, and George Zarr July 13 - "Orson the Alien!" part 2 of 2 - written by Terry Bisson, Brian Smith, and George Zarr ___________________________________________________________________