From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sat May 22 19:47:47 1999 Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:43:22 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9905A" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:20:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: Plot vs Character MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1EA84BA6E896C43F9BA0EA2C" --------------1EA84BA6E896C43F9BA0EA2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Contrary to most commercial writers, Samuel R. Delany trusts character over plot, though in recent years he seems to favor linguistic structures. See The Jewel-Hinged Jaw: Notes on the Language of Science Fiction (1977), especially "Thickening the Plot," "Characters," and "On Pure Story-Telling." Long out of print, this book had a paperback edition (Berkley) that may be available from used book dealers. Inter-Library Loan services at University libraries can also help you locate it. I also remember a section I can't seem to find in his memoir, The Shadow of Light on Water, concerning characterizing women in literature, something he had to struggle with during the Sixties, because he could find so few examples of women characters being treated as autonomous and economically functioning members of society. Joanna Goltzman Bruscell wrote: > Mike Stanton wrote: > > If I had to make a stark choice between "plot" and "character" I'd go for > "plot" everytime; > ************************************ > Speaking of choosing plot over character development--hasn't this been a > debate in science fiction over the years? Can anyone on the list give me any > info on critics who talk about science fiction as plot driven and of > characters as functioning as the means by which ideas are presented, rather > than as human beings? Thanks. > > Joanna --------------1EA84BA6E896C43F9BA0EA2C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Contrary to most commercial writers, Samuel R. Delany trusts character over plot, though in recent years he seems to favor linguistic structures.  See The Jewel-Hinged Jaw: Notes on the Language of Science Fiction (1977), especially "Thickening the Plot," "Characters," and "On Pure Story-Telling."  Long out of print, this book had a paperback edition (Berkley) that may be available from used book dealers.  Inter-Library Loan services at University libraries can also help you locate it.  I also remember a section  I can't seem to find in his memoir, The Shadow of Light on Water, concerning characterizing women in literature, something he had to struggle with during the Sixties, because he could find so few examples of women characters being treated as autonomous and economically functioning members of society.

Joanna Goltzman Bruscell wrote:

Mike Stanton wrote:

If I had to make a stark choice between "plot" and "character" I'd go for
"plot" everytime;
************************************
Speaking of choosing plot over character development--hasn't this been a
debate in science fiction over the years? Can anyone on the list give me any
info on critics who talk about science fiction as plot driven and of
characters as functioning as the means by which ideas are presented, rather
than as human beings? Thanks.

Joanna

--------------1EA84BA6E896C43F9BA0EA2C-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 08:48:40 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Recent reading - April--Enjoyable Award winners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 30 Apr 99, at 23:37, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > As I tell my freshman English students, "never" is > an awfully dangerous word. I'm not going to say that > you're entirely wrong. I can't speak for > everyone who ever judged a book award contest, after > all. But isn't it equally likely that the people who > are judging such contests simply enjoy > books that are different from what you enjoy. Touche! Put it down to hubris because I was obviously equating my own tastes to those of Everyman. What I really meant (note the weaseling) was "popularity" - which can be measured objectively. The major awards (Nebula / Hugo) do appear to pay some heed to popularity although, I fear, more to the currently reigning standards of political correctness. I usually avoid books which win the "specialist" awards - indeed, I use those awards as a guide to which authors I should avoid! > I've been on award panels, the Phillip.K. Dick Award, the > Crawford Award on two occasions, and every book I've > voted for has been a book I thoroughly enjoyed, but > I'm willing to bet, based on your comments about > didactic fiction, that some of them were books you > would have disliked intensely. Here you've exposed my weakness - I find it difficult to tolerate didactic ('having the manner of an authoritarian teacher') fiction because a single error of fact or principle discredits an entire work. I remember one particularly egregious case in which a near-famous British biologist/sf writer had his hero build a thermite bomb from materials readily available in the jungle; the magnesium for the igniter, for example, was scraped out of a pyroxene using a sharp knife! > Some people really do enjoy didactic fiction, especially if it has > other good things going for it (ie. plot, characters). Among my > favorite heavily didactic writers, for example, are Ursula K. > LeGuin, Melissa Scott, Joan Slonczewski, Octavia Butler, and John > Steinbeck. I don't know Scott, but the others (except Steinbeck) clearly are ones to avoid for the reason you say. Slonczewski I found a tremendous disappointment. Anthea went to a lot of trouble to get _A Door into Ocean_, _Daughter of Elysium_ and _The Children Star_ (the first 2 are apparently o.o.p.), but both of us found the style and the "didacticism" so off-putting as to be unreadable ... all over-simplified maths and a biology upgraded from James Blish (particularly from one story - name escapes me - in which human germ plasma was modified by ?pantropes to produced "people" reduced to the size of rotifers; the resulting "embryos" seeded into puddles on a world of water and provided with the equivalent of Moses' tablets engraved onto metal). I can't believe that John Steinbeck, author of the incomparable _Cannery Row_, the magnificent _Sweet Thursday_, the incandescent _Of mice and men_ and the sublime _Travels with Charlie_, is didactic. He's one of only 2 or 3 Nobel Literature prize winners I can read for pleasure! I owe him a great debt since _TwC_ spurred Anthea and I into touring Italy by motorbike for two months in our last university vac. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 08:50:29 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Recent reading - April Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 30 Apr 99, at 12:02, Sophia Hegner wrote: > I was really taken aback at the venom in Ruth's words. Everyone is > entitled to their opinion, including men, and Ruth's response > seemed very extreme to me ... [snip] ... I want no part, however, > in a list where the messages are hostile and negative. Sophia Ruth's reply to my comments was robust and to the point. But I certainly didn't detect any venom nor did I think the message was "hostile". "Vigorous" yes, "negative" obviously yes but "hostile" certainly not! Ruth has, I think, only just joined the list and it must have been more than a little disconcerting for her to see sacred feminist shibboleths trampled into the earth by a "typical patriarch". Her remarks clearly *could* be taken as "ad hominem", but that was simply because she was answering to comments which required an ad hominem reply. Let me leave with one of Sam Johnson's aphorisms : "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it". I exercised my right and Ruth exercised hers. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:06:36 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Mike wrote: >I can't believe that John Steinbeck, author of the incomparable _Cannery >Row_, the magnificent _Sweet Thursday_, the incandescent _Of mice and men_ >and the sublime _Travels with Charlie_, is didactic. He's one of only 2 or >3 Nobel Literature prize winners I can read for pleasure! I'll bet that they are Steinbeck, Hemingway and Churchill. Right? Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:59:41 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: What's the point? People can be so baffling. On a feminist list we have an admitted non-feminist who quotes Camille Paglia in defense of his views. On the midwife list is a man who has complete disdain for midwives and takes every opportunity to voice his scorn of anything to do with women centered health care. While celebrating a holiday with my family I've occasionally been accosted by Jehovah's Witnesses (who don't believe in celebrating holidays) trying to evangelize their religion. What can possibly be the reason for this? What makes a person's value system so negative that his actions are geared more toward trying to debunk another person's dearly held beliefs than exploring whatever it is he finds meaningful in his own life? Once I heard a little boy trying to explain what it means to be Jewish by saying he didn't believe in Jesus. His mother was semi-horrified. She told him that being Jewish was a lot more than just not being something else. I find it important to be what I am, and I'm puzzled by why others find it so necessary to concentrate on what they are not. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 14:14:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: list guidelines Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i'm reposting a relevant extract from the list guidelines. To my mind, it is not a requirement that someone self-identify as a feminist to be on the list. Joining out of curiosity is fine as long as it doesn't take the form of taking the list way off-topic or engage the list in discussions ABOUT feminism - which is NOT the purpose of the list. However this list is not appropriate for people hostile to feminism, however you understand that. I would be inclined to let people self-define these things, and if behavior becomes a problem - from any direction - it is clear that you *can* be kicked off for harassing another member of the list. To be brief, if you want to engage in a discussion of feminism, take it OFF LIST. There is nothing surer to create flame-wars than "what is a feminist" "you are" and "you aren't." I expect that people who identify as feminists to respect differences in the beliefs and self-definitions of others who identify as feminists. And I expect that people who identify as non-feminists will be respectful of feminist space. Any problems? Speak to me in private. It is a primarily unmoderated list, which means that I will not be selecting or censoring comments. People can ask whatever questions they want about the topic, with one broad exception. Because I have been on many listserves relating to feminism which have inspired anti-feminists to harass other members, or engage the entire listserve in discussions about the nature, purpose, etc., of feminism, I wish to make it clear from the outset that this listserve is for discussion of the literature. Discussion of feminism as a philosophy belong on a feminist discussion group. Discussion of feminism, as it pertains to literature or particular works of literature, is perfectly appropriate. I will remove people from the listserve who behave in an inappropriate manner after one warning. General Guidelines for ListServe Behavior: * Don't "flame" other people - be considerate & polite * If you have something to say, say it! Other people are interested in your opinion -- that's why they joined a discussion list. * Conversely, if you don't have anything to say, don't say it. On a moderate-to-heavy traffic listserve, it is not helpful to send postings saying "I agree" or "yeah!" If you don't have additional thoughts which expand or add to or confront the original post, then send your comments to the original poster privately. * If you wish to comment about a posting but the comment is not really on topic, consider sending it to the original poster privately. You can make good friends by starting private discussions this way. * Please try to stick to the general topic. Many people on the listserve may not be very talkative but are very interested in the topic. They subscribed to read about feminist science fiction, fantasy & utopian literature. This is not a list just about feminism, or a list just about sf/fantasy/utopia. It is a list about the intersection of the two. Please respect that and help others respect it. * If someone else is not sticking to the topic, don't flame them. Try bringing the topic back to feminist sf-f-utopia with a related, transitional posting that is ON topic. That will be more useful than a comment that is only about "keeping the list on topic," and it can keep the list a pleasant place to be. * Don't make assumptions about other people. The list is very diverse, including men and women, people from many nationalities, ethnic origins, religions, ages and different experiences. Respect the other participants and the experiences they bring to the discussion. Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 17:53:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Recent reading - April--Enjoyable Award winners In-Reply-To: <80256764.002C3E44.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 1 May 1999, Mike Stanton wrote: > I don't know Scott, but the others (except Steinbeck) clearly are ones to > avoid for the reason you say. Slonczewski I found a tremendous > disappointment. Anthea went to a lot of trouble to get _A Door into Ocean_, > _Daughter of Elysium_ and _The Children Star_ (the first 2 are apparently > o.o.p.), but both of us found the style and the "didacticism" so > off-putting as to be unreadable ... all over-simplified maths and a biology > upgraded from James Blish (particularly from one story - name escapes me - > in which human germ plasma was modified by ?pantropes to produced "people" > reduced to the size of rotifers; the resulting "embryos" seeded into > puddles on a world of water and provided with the equivalent of Moses' > tablets engraved onto metal). I won't argue with your evaluation of Joan Slonczewski's fiction as fiction. This is a matter of taste, pure and simple, but I'd be very careful if I were you about criticizing her biology. Slonczewski has a Ph.D. in biology, teaches the subject at Kenyon College (one of the better small colleges in the United States), and has done major research and publication in her area of specialization bacteriology. > I can't believe that John Steinbeck, author of the incomparable _Cannery > Row_, the magnificent _Sweet Thursday_, the incandescent _Of mice and men_ > and the sublime _Travels with Charlie_, is didactic. He's one of only 2 or > 3 Nobel Literature prize winners I can read for pleasure! I owe him a great > debt since _TwC_ spurred Anthea and I into touring Italy by motorbike for > two months in our last university vac. Not all of Steinbeck's fiction is didactic, but The Grapes of Wrath, my favorite among his novels, is intensely didactic. My reading of Cannery Row and Travels with Charlie is some 25 years in the past, but it seems to me that both books also have a political message. Mike Levy > Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 07:56:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Translated/original feminist sf/f Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 1 May 99, at 9:06, Ruth Tarr wrote: > I'll bet that they are Steinbeck, Hemingway and Churchill. Right? Right! But when I thought about it, there're actually 3 more I liked - Pearl Buck (38), GBS (25) and Kipling (07). I've *read* at least 1 work of each of 76 laureates but I agree with your private comment that one has to read works in the original language to see why the prize was awarded - which means one's got to have a lot better than just fluency in speaking and writing. My French is OK, but while my "normal" German is good, it's only borderline for literary works because I don't have the background in German literature. As you say, I also think the pretty complex concepts much sf/f contains would require even better linguistic skills. Unfortunately none of our German or French staff are sf/f fans, but judging by the bookshops, I'd say that translations of US stuff (like Asimov's works) are relatively popular in Germany and, I think to a lesser extent, also in France and Italy. Neither Anthea nor I can recall seeing any feminist sf/f authors in translation, but then we haven't looked that closely. There's quite a bit of sf/f written in Western European countries and (I'd guess) almost as much written in the East, but I've never read any sf/f (feminist or otherwise) by non-English speaking authors so I can't tell you how subtle concepts come through. The only stuff readily available to me now would be in Italian and my Italian isn't good enough to judge. I once read a German translation of Tom Clancy's _Red storm rising_ and it appeared faithful to the original but Clancy is hardly subtle! Perhaps other people on the list can tell us. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) PS Anthea urges you to use your full b/a. Clothes are expensive here. You can always ship stuff home by freight if you buy extra. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:51:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Recent reading - April--Enjoyable Award winners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 1 May 99, at 17:53, Michael Marc Levy wrote: > I won't argue with your evaluation of Joan Slonczewski's > fiction as fiction. This is a matter of taste, pure and simple, > but I'd be very careful if I were you about criticizing her biology. > Slonczewski has a Ph.D. in biology, teaches the subject at > Kenyon College (one of the better small colleges in the United > States), and has done major research and publication in her > area of specialization bacteriology. Mike *was* criticising her science fiction. Her *fictional* techniques in biology are highly speculative (as any such work must be). Clearly this puts them in the "suspension of disbelief" category, just as one must also suspend disbelief about the faster-than-light travel techniques of physicists like Catherine Asaro. But he is perfectly entitled to criticise what you yourself call "didactic" style. Other people have also noticed the similarity between her work and Blish's "pantropy". I really don't see why people persist in citing scientific credentials as proof that a particular author is necessarily skilled at writing speculative fiction. But if you chose to do so, if I were you, I'd be very careful to do it correctly. How did you, for example, arrive at "major publications in bacteriology"? My assistant, whose first degree is in "biometrics", is from Columbus (OH) and tells me that Kenyon is a small liberal arts, church affiliated college with a small biology department. The ISI databases show only *4* papers (dated '81, '82, '85, '87) in refereed journals for which Slonczewski was the senior (first cited) author and 2 recent AIMs. The Science Citation Index shows that the papers are not often cited. So they're hardly "major publications in bacteriology". Slonczewski's distinguished achievements lie in the field of education (particularly so in the vexed problem of science in schools), in her science fiction and, like her head of department, in her association with feminism. It's for these that we must respect her. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 18:10:52 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sven Holmström Subject: Re: Translated/original feminist sf/f Mike Stanton wrote: >also in France and Italy. Neither Anthea nor I can recall seeing any >feminist sf/f authors in translation, but then we haven't looked that >closely. There's quite a bit of sf/f written in Western European countries >and (I'd guess) almost as much written in the East, but I've never read any But surely there must be some fem sf/f translated to German and French. I guess Le Guin is translated in mots European languages, but maybe you don't count her in. (It seems too me like it's mostly people who don't usually red fem sf/f who calls her feministic). But I have hard to believe that Joanna Russ isn't represented in those languages. What I can say is that three books is available in Swedish.) And sf is nowadyas almost non-existant in Sweden. (But maybe - even if I don't really think so - we in spite of the size of the country, have had a bit more 'unusual' sf-translations than comparable countries. That would be because of Sam J. Lundwall, published for a couple of decades much Eastern European sf, and John-Henri Holmberg who have published Russ and some other sf of more didactic character. When it comes to other femsf/f authors I just don't know, because I have read so little in the field. Sven ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 18:52:31 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Giacomo Conserva Subject: translations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Female man" has been translated into Italian in 1990 or so, and has had a new edition since (like Delany's "Triton", by the way, first published in 1978), and there has been a translation of "Picnic on Paradise". All, or almost all, of U.LeGuin's books, a lot of C.J.Cherry's, and Tepper's, and Tanith Lee's; plus several stuff by Tiptree/Sheldon, on and off. And all of M.Z.Bradley's; and others. (Atwood' "Handmaid's Tale" too, of course). Giacomo Conserva ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:13:39 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Giacomo Conserva Subject: Italian translations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I forgot about Pat Cadigan and Octavia Butler. Nobody's perfect. G.Conserva ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:53:16 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Um...books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/1/99 3:54:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, levymm@UWEC.EDU writes: << Slonczewski >> Excuse me, but I have been under a ton of work lately and have completely lost the list of books we are supposed to read for discussion. Could someone please send me the list? Thanks!!!! Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:01:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Translated/original feminist sf/f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Depends on if you consider her "feminist" or not, but MZB's stuff was in every single SF section (even small ones) in the bookstores I visited while I was in Germany last summer. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Stanton [SMTP:m_stanton@POSTMASTER.CO.UK] > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 11:56 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Translated/original feminist sf/f > > Unfortunately none of our German or French staff are sf/f fans, but > judging > by the bookshops, I'd say that translations of US stuff (like Asimov's > works) are relatively popular in Germany and, I think to a lesser extent, > also in France and Italy. Neither Anthea nor I can recall seeing any > feminist sf/f authors in translation, but then we haven't looked that > closely. There's quite a bit of sf/f written in Western European countries > and (I'd guess) almost as much written in the East, but I've never read > any > sf/f (feminist or otherwise) by non-English speaking authors so I can't > tell you how subtle concepts come through. The only stuff readily > available > to me now would be in Italian and my Italian isn't good enough to judge. > > Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:28:34 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Translated/original feminist sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2 May 99, at 18:10, Sven Holmström wrote: > But surely there must be some fem sf/f translated to > German and French ... What I can say is that three > books is available in Swedish.) Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. The number of people who've (publicly and privately) pulled me up on this (including my temp who tells me that there are French and Italian sf/f translations in the bookshop I visited last week) has greatly embarrassed me. There're even two catalogues from European bookshops in our files which contain details of some sf/f translations; I'm expecting a severe reprimand tomorrow for signing circulation slips without reading the documents . I think it's just a question of not looking! If I want a novel in Germany etc, I go to a place I think has English books (like bookshops at most airports). If I go into an "ordinary" bookshop in Germany etc, I usually just want the newspapers, magazines or *specific* German etc books. I'll probably only look at non-English fiction in passing and how much does one remember of that? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:59:30 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sven Holmström Subject: SV: [*FSFFU*] translations Giacomo Conserva wrote: > "Female man" has been translated into Italian in 1990 or so, and in >1978), and there has been a translation of "Picnic on Paradise". All, >or >almost all, of U.LeGuin's books, a lot of C.J.Cherry's, and Tepper's, >and >Tanith Lee's; plus several stuff by Tiptree/Sheldon, on and off. And >all >of M.Z.Bradley's; and others. (Atwood' "Handmaid's Tale" too, of >course). >And later: >Well, I forgot about Pat Cadigan and Octavia Butler. Nobody's perfect. >G.Conserva I dont know what to call feminist literature, but about the authors here mentioned I can say the following excist in Swedish: Russ as I said three titles, Delany two titles, most of Le Guin (not her latest works though, except Catwings...). Quite a few of Bradley have been translated. The other autors I dont know much about, but a quick check gives me at least four titles of T. Lee, at least one of Cherry. By Cadigan I think there only is one short story translated, the others authors I dont think is represented at all. Seems a bit strange if not anyone have translated A Handmaid's Tale. But while loads of Fantasy is translated each year is translated almost no sf at all have been turned into Swedish the last ten years. (Still a few books each year, but these few titles on the other hand does very seldom make they're way into the regular bookstores. Except for Gibson and Clarke, I would say.) Sven ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:41:08 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: BDG = GRASS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It has been awhile since I read this. I loved the creepy feeling of slowly realizing that the mounts weren't horses and the foxes weren't foxes. I also very much enjoyed the female lead having a role other than falling in permanent love with the male, the struggle she had with that, and then going on to a larger life. I've joined the Lit group, so not sure if anybody is left here... Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:32:13 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: translations In-Reply-To: <006901be94e7$0eae1b00$baedec82@f186.ryd.student.liu.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well, I've found it very interesting how much feminist sf is translated into other languages. And I _have_ to add my 2 cents on German translations although some list members have already partially posted on that. SF is read a lot in Germany and most (nearly all?) of it is translated from English. Practically everything that is popular in the USA is translated, incl. Marion Zimmer Bradley (whose novels, by the way, are the _only_ ones in the sf sections of the women's bookstores I know), Ursula Le Guin, Vonda McIntyre, Sheri Tepper, Octavia Butler. So the current feminist sf stuff is available but with the exception of the most prominent authors most of them are rarely seen in bookstores and have to be ordered. I think it is important (as for the US) to distinguish between _once published_ and _still in print_. It's been announced that _Dreamsnake_ will be republished in fall. That's probably due to McIntyre's recently winning the Nebula (or was it the Hugo?). Most works of Joanna Russ have been published in German in the early eighties by a women's press, now extinct, but not since. And, as I see it, with the exception of some academic circles, she is virtually unknown here. Similar with Suzy McKee Charnas, Dorothy Bryant and Suzette Haden Elgin. The first two books of the Holdfast series and _The Vampire Tapestry_ have been published in the (early) eighties but are long out of print. There are no signs so far that the third Holdfast book will ever be translated. Marge Piercy is a different case. There is one publisher here, Argument Verlag, which publishes _all_ her books, among others, _Women on the Edge_ and _He, She, It_. This publisher has a longer perspective than the publishers focusing on sf. That's IMO the reason WotEoT is in print. Margaret Atwood's _Handmaid's Tale_ also is in the mainstream section and always in print. So far not translated (and probably not in the future): Joan Slonczewski, _The Gate to Women's Country_ by Tepper, Eleanor Arnason, Emma Bull. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:13:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: SFFWA's Nebula-winners: Forwarded from Library of Congress SF-Lit Comments: To: HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Steven H Silver on 05/01/99 11:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT @SMTP@EXCHANGE cc: Subject: Nebula Winners The winners of this year's Nebula Awards: Author Emeritus: Phillip Klass (William Tenn) Grandmaster: Hal Clement Short Story: Bruce Holland Rogers, "Thirteen Ways to Water" (Black Cats and Broken Mirrors, Martin H. Greenberg & John Helfers, ed. DAW 6/98) Novelette: Jane Yolen, "Lost Girls" (Realms of Fantasy, 2/98) Novella: Sheila FInch, "Reading the Bones" (F&SF, 1/98) Novel: Joe Haldeman, _Forever Peace_ Ace, 10/97 (Hugo Winner last year). This is the first win for Realms of Fantasy and, I believe, the first time a work has first won the Hugo and then won the Nebula. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:43:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: BDG = GRASS In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Madrone, As you mentioned, the Grass discussion should happen over on the new "lit" list. If anyone hasn't signed up for it yet now would be an excellent time. For more info about joining the lit list, see Jennifer At 08:41 PM 05/02/99 -0400, you wrote: >It has been awhile since I read this. I loved the creepy feeling of slowly >realizing that the mounts weren't horses and the foxes weren't foxes. I also >very much enjoyed the female lead having a role other than falling in >permanent love with the male, the struggle she had with that, and then going >on to a larger life. > >I've joined the Lit group, so not sure if anybody is left here... > >Madrone > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:49:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SFFWA's Nebula-winners: Forwarded from Library of Congress SF-Lit In-Reply-To: <199905031819.NAA47214@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 May 1999, Todd Mason wrote: > From: Steven H Silver on 05/01/99 11:10 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT RS8.LOC.GOV>@SMTP@EXCHANGE > cc: > Subject: Nebula Winners > > Novel: Joe Haldeman, _Forever Peace_ Ace, 10/97 (Hugo Winner last > year). > > This is the first win for Realms of Fantasy and, I believe, the first > time a work has first won the Hugo and then won the Nebula. > Several novels and stories have won both the Hugo and the Nebula, Neuromancer for example and The Left Hand of Darkness. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: SFFWA's Nebula-winners: Forwarded from Library of C ongress SF-Lit: Levy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Silver's point (which I don't have the references at hand to verify) was that FOREVER PEACE won the Hugo first, then the Nebula. Is this true of LHOD, N, or DUNE? From: Michael Marc Levy on 05/03/99 02:49 PM To: FEMINISTSF @ LISTSERV.UIC.EDU@SMTP@EXCHANGE cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] SFFWA's Nebula-winners: Forwarded from Library of Congress SF-Lit On Mon, 3 May 1999, Todd Mason wrote: > From: Steven H Silver on 05/01/99 11:10 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT RS8.LOC.GOV>@SMTP@EXCHANGE > cc: > Subject: Nebula Winners > > Novel: Joe Haldeman, _Forever Peace_ Ace, 10/97 (Hugo Winner last > year). > > This is the first win for Realms of Fantasy and, I believe, the first > time a work has first won the Hugo and then won the Nebula. > Several novels and stories have won both the Hugo and the Nebula, Neuromancer for example and The Left Hand of Darkness. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: What's the point? In-Reply-To: <004001be940d$26f18240$1bcafcd0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 1 May 1999, Joyce Jones wrote: > People can be so baffling. On a feminist list we have an admitted > non-feminist who quotes Camille Paglia in defense of his views. > I find it important to be what I am, and I'm puzzled by why others find it so > necessary to concentrate on what they are not. Because they are threatened by it. That pretty much explains the behaivior of that sort of people. And the more threatened they are, the more likely they are to devote their time attacking the ideas that scare them so much. Even if that means joining the list created by the followers of those ideas. Can you say "troll"? Even if one gets to dominate his wife, daughter, or colleagues, as long as there are women (or men) who dare to think differently, he is never safe. Have a pity for the poor guy. Attacking feminism online might be the only consolation left for him in the changing world. Another explanation might be a certain anatomic defeciency, but -- oh, well. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: _Swastika night_ by Katherine Burdekin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Katherine Burdekin's _Swastika night_, which was written sometime in the 30s was recommended to me as the first really powerful feminist sf novel. Other than that it predicted a Nazi victory my informant could tell me little. Has anyone heard of it or (most importantly) know where it can be obtained? AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:08:56 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: translations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 3 May 99, at 19:32, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > Well, I've found it very interesting how much feminist sf is > translated into other languages. And I _have_ to add my 2 cents on > German translations although some list members have already > partially posted on that. You probably know that there is an extensive CJ Cherryh site at http://wwwjessen.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~jakobi/meetpoint/ (with 2 excellent programs - ChView & ChDesign - for free download). The Germans who run the site seem to use English editions but are there no German translations? What about the other 2 big language groups - French and Spanish? France has an *extremely active* feminist movement and somehow I can't see Marianne reading only translated foreign material . I don't know anything about Spanish feminist movements and, although I was in Spain 3 times in the last year, I never visited a bookship. Don't we have anyone in these two countries? It's a pity that the topic wasn't raised last year and early this when Anthea and I were travelling all over Europe. Now Anthea isn't really travelling and I'm all tied up with our US projects. Ruth [Tarr] is visiting France and Spain in late June/July but I hope we don't have to wait that long for more on this fascinating subject. Again what about translations into Asian languages? I don't personally know a single Asian sf fan, but I'm sure there must be at least some feminist sf/f (especially MZB) translated into, for example, Japanese - so much else has. What about translations the other way? I've got to be honest and admit that I've never read or even heard of a non-English feminist sf/f author. In fact the only 2 Western European sf/f authors I know in translation are Jules Verne and (pushing it) Cyrano de Bergerac. There's a lot of Russian sf (I don't know of any femSF/F) although again I have read little (and didn't enjoy that). The only other author I know of is Stanislaw Lem of Poland; I've read 2 of his books in translation, and we've got 5 of his books in Polish which Anthea picked when she ran the Polish office (neither of us can read them). I don't think there are any East European feminist sf/f authors but I'd be very happy to be corrected. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:23:19 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: What's the point? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; I can bet pretty nasty at times but this is the sickest posting I've ever seen. Does she do it often? Ruth >Because they are threatened by it. That pretty much explains the >behaivior of that sort of people. And the more threatened they are, the >more likely they are to devote their time attacking the ideas that >scare them so much. Even if that means joining the list created by the >followers of those ideas. Can you say "troll"? > >Even if one gets to dominate his wife, daughter, or colleagues, as long as >there are women (or men) who dare to think differently, he is never safe. > >Have a pity for the poor guy. Attacking feminism online might be the only >consolation left for him in the changing world. Another explanation might >be a certain anatomic defeciency, but -- oh, well. > >IMHO, >Marina > >http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html > > "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society > is selling at the time." > Naomi Wolf ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:41:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: heather Subject: Re: _Swastika night_ by Katherine Burdekin In-Reply-To: <19990503201107.23829.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Katherine Burdekin's _Swastika night_, which was written sometime in the 30s >was recommended to me as the first really powerful feminist sf novel. Other >than that it predicted a Nazi victory my informant could tell me little. > >Has anyone heard of it or (most importantly) know where it can be obtained? > I also highly recommend Burdekin's _The End of This Day's Business_, which is also feminist sf. SN is a dystopian future; EDB is more of an ambiguous utopia, in which women are the dominant social group, 3000 (? maybe it's 2000) years from now. Both have been reprinted by The Feminist Press (with commentary by Daphne Patai), and both are still in print, according to the online Books in Print. You can ask your local independent bookstore to order it for you if it's not in stock. You might also find it in a library, or through inter-library loan. Heather ........................................................... heather / \ kebbo@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:17:30 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: _Swastika night_ by Katherine Burdekin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was initially published under the pseudonym 'Murrya Constantine' but recent reprints have, I think, restored the credit to Burdekin under her own name. It was reissued by (I think) Virago, and also, to my recollection, The Women's Press New York (an entirely different enterprise from the UK Women's Press) with an intro by Daphne Patai, a scholar who has done much work on Burdekin. I would suggest trying both amazon.com and amazon.co.uk as they do tend to have somewhat different stock and books unavailable at one are sometimes still available from the other. They are also good at listing books which are in limbo - not out of print, but not likely to be in any bookshop (esp. academic texts I find) Otherwise, if these recourses fail, I have a few internet and other addresses of secondhand booksellers on my website at http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/webdoc6.htm Best of luck! Lesley Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: Anthea Hartley Stanton To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: 03 May 1999 21:18 Subject: [*FSFFU*] _Swastika night_ by Katherine Burdekin >Katherine Burdekin's _Swastika night_, which was written sometime in the 30s >was recommended to me as the first really powerful feminist sf novel. Other >than that it predicted a Nazi victory my informant could tell me little. > >Has anyone heard of it or (most importantly) know where it can be obtained? > > > >AJ >Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:25:05 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: _Swastika night_ by Katherine Burdekin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; I've just checked and found that you can still buy this book through Amazon.com where I got my copy last year at $8 Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:25:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Kate Wilhelm THE GOOD CHILDREN Comments: To: sf-lit , HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Comments: cc: Virginia Ely , Frederic Bush , Tia Hamilton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The paperback edition of Kate Wilhelm's THE GOOD CHILDREN has arrived, and I recommend it. It has a premise not unfamiliar to PARTY OF FIVE viewers, dealing as it does with a family of teens and one much younger child who decide to go it alone when they they lose their parents; like some other Wilhelm novels, elements of "modern gothic" fiction have been handled here in a very matter-of-fact manner, with versimilitude mostly triumphing throughout (I feel the climax leaves a hole not wholly patched). By modern gothic, I don't mean the kind of thing Marilyn Manson doesn't represent anyway, nor even the half-arsed smartassisms of T.C. Boyle (some of the time) or William Vollman (when not drowing in self-pity), but the kind of outlandish events that written one way were the stuff of supermarket gothics of the '60s and '70s (see "Someone's Trying to Kill Me, and I Think It's My Husband" by Joanna Russ, collected in HOW TO WRITE LIKE A WOMAN), and which are also the frequent subject of Wilhelm's near-twin in fiction, Joyce Carol Oates. This reads as what a writer of talent can do with the PARTY OF FIVE concept as mixed with the post-gothic Mary Higgins Clark and V C Andrews territory, and while it's not the bravura performance that DEATH QUALIFIED is (read that book, folks!), nor does it favor as much acute satire of romance-fiction tropes as does WELCOME, CHAOS, I found it very pleasant, and an excellent portrayal of teens under remarkable kinds of stress (which of course has a certain unwelcome currency). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:55:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: SFFWA's Nebula-winners: Forwarded from Library of C ongress SF-Lit: Levy In-Reply-To: <199905031903.OAA87892@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 May 1999, Todd Mason wrote: > Silver's point (which I don't have the references at hand to verify) > was that FOREVER PEACE won the Hugo first, then the Nebula. Is this true of > LHOD, N, or DUNE? > No idea. Is the order significant? Just asking. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:15:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: SFFWA's Nebula-winners: Forwarded from Library of C ongress SF-Lit: Levy Comments: To: Michael Marc Levy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain It was, I think mostly in the "How 'bout that?" way, to Silver, I guess. On SF-Lit, Barbara Hume pointed out that ENDER'S GAME may have won both in the same order. From: Michael Marc Levy on 05/03/99 06:55 PM To: FEMINISTSF @ LISTSERV.UIC.EDU@SMTP@EXCHANGE cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] SFFWA's Nebula-winners: Forwarded from Library of C ongress SF-Lit: Levy On Mon, 3 May 1999, Todd Mason wrote: > Silver's point (which I don't have the references at hand to verify) > was that FOREVER PEACE won the Hugo first, then the Nebula. Is this true of > LHOD, N, or DUNE? > No idea. Is the order significant? Just asking. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 00:51:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: What's the point? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:23 PM 3/05/99 PDT, you wrote: >I can bet pretty nasty at times but this is the sickest posting I've ever >seen. Does she do it often? > >Ruth Huh? What was so sick about Marina's post? I scanned it pretty thoroughly and didn't find anything remotely offensive about it, much less 'sick'. Marina and I have had our debates in the past, but I would never call her 'sick'. Guys, why do I have this feeling that Ruth is only here as a troll? Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 01:14:05 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: What's the point? Comments: cc: m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 4 May 99, at 0:51, Santanico wrote: >Huh? > >What was so sick about Marina's post? I scanned it pretty thoroughly and >didn't find anything remotely offensive about it, much less 'sick'. Marina >and I have had our debates in the past, but I would never call her 'sick'. You don't think that using words like "a certain anatomic defeciency" in a argument is sick? It may be the way you men like to argue but I and a lot of other women find it offensive. To the rest of the list .......... I've got to apologise for the very bad start I made when I stupidly lost my temper with Mike. I thought he was just another anti-lesbian man and I've had too much of that over the past year. We've sorted it out in private and while I disagree with a lot of what he says at least he doesn't go round making dirty remarks. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: What's the point? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:14 AM 4/05/99 PDT, you wrote: >You don't think that using words like "a certain anatomic defeciency" in a >argument is sick? Depends on the context, doesn't it? It may be the way you men like to argue but I and a lot of >other women find it offensive. I'm a woman, Ruth. See what happens when you attack someone you don't know based on gender? Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:34:33 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: translations In-Reply-To: <80256766.0070154C.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On 3 May 99 Mike Stanton wrote: > On 3 May 99, at 19:32, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > > > Well, I've found it very interesting how much feminist sf is > > translated into other languages. And I _have_ to add my 2 cents on > > German translations although some list members have already > > partially posted on that. > > You probably know that there is an extensive CJ Cherryh site at > http://wwwjessen.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~jakobi/meetpoint/ (with > 2 excellent programs - ChView & ChDesign - for free download). The > Germans who run the site seem to use English editions but are there > no German translations? No, I didn't know that site, not being an especial Cherryh fan. And I just checked: there are 6 books by Cherryh currently in print in German. But some people like to read the original when they can. Mike also asked about non-English feminist sf. Well, it's one of my interest to find and read them, although so far, my list is short (and I have not read much of it yet). Some of these I have from Laura Quilter's website: Louky Bersianik (France): L'Euguelionne (1976) Picnic on the Acropolis (1979) (french original?) Maternative (Orig. franz.?) (1980) Gerd Brantenberg (Norway): The Daughters of Egalia (1979) (if that is the English title) Françoise d'Eaubonne (France) Le Satellite de l'Amande (1975) Les bergères de l'Apocalypse (1978) Irene Fleiss (Austria) Die Leibwächterin und der Magier (1983) Barbara Frischmuth (Austria) Die Mystifikationen der Sophie Silber (1976) Amy oder Die Metamorphose (1978) Kai und die Liebe zu den Modellen (1979) Ulla Hagenau-Stoewer (Germany) Schöne verkehrte Welt oder die Zeitmaschine meiner Urgroßmutter (1980) Marlen Haushofer (Austria) Die Wand (1963?) Jutta Heinrich (Germany) Unheimliche Reise (1998) Marockh Lautenschlag (Germany) Araquin (1981) Sweet America (1983) Der Wald und andere Erzählungen (Collection) (1980) Wenn der Schnee in meinem Land fällt (Collection) (1984) Irmtraud Morgner (East Germany) Leben und Abenteuer der Trobadora Beatriz nach Zeugnissen ihrer Spielfrau Laura (1974) Amanda (1983) Das heroische Testament (1998) Barbara Neuwirth (Austria) Dunkler Fluß des Lebens (1992) (Collection) Empedeklos' Turm (1998?) (novella) Kathrin Schmidt (Germany) Die Gunnar-Lennefsen-Expedition (1998) Monique Wittig (France) Les Guérillères (1969) O.k., I use a rather loose definition of sf here. I included anything with phantastic elements. Some authors would certainly be surprised to be on this list. One could also add Elisabeth Vonarburg who - as far as I know - writes in French. From the list above Wittig, Morgner, Haushofer, d'Eaubonne, Bersianik and Brantenberg have been translated into English to my knowledge. Not feminist, but a female Swedish sf writer was Karin Boye. Her _Kallocain_ reminds a lot of _1984_ but was written nearly 20 years before. IMO it's worth reading. I also tried to read East European sf once (incl. East German). IMO it is hard to get into for us from the West because the reference system is completely different. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:17:46 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: translations In-Reply-To: <199905041534.RAA13011@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 05:34 PM 04/05/1999, you wrote: >Mike also asked about non-English feminist sf. Well, it's one of my >interest to find and read them, although so far, my list is short >(and I have not read much of it yet). Some of these I have from >Laura Quilter's website: > >Louky Bersianik (France): > L'Euguelionne (1976) > Picnic on the Acropolis (1979) (french original?) > Maternative (Orig. franz.?) (1980) _L'Euguélionne_ was published in French in 1976. An English translation was published in 1982, but it is long out of print (the one mentioned on Laura Quilter's website). I published a new translation, _The Euguelion_ (Montreal: Alter Ego Editions) in 1996. This translation won the Governer General's Literary Award for Translation. (I have tried, without success, to submit this information to Laura Quilter's website. I would appreciate any helpful hints about how to get this accomplished.) _L'Euguélionne_ is far from your usual science fiction, but the title character is a "sister from another planet" who come to Earth in search of the male of her species. She discovers many astonishing things about relationships between women and men on this planet. I wouldn't call Louky's other books science fiction by any stretch of the definition. _Le Pique-nique sur l'Acropole_ (1979) imagines what the women were doing and talking about while Plato and the guys were having their Symposium. _The Euguelion_ is the only one of her books published in English translation (so far). >surprised to be on this list. One could also add Elisabeth Vonarburg >who - as far as I know - writes in French. From the list above Élisabeth writes in French, and much of her work has been translated into English. My translation of "The Sleeper in the Crystal" was published in Tesseracts6 (Edmonton: Tesseracts Books, 1997) and I have an anthology of her short fiction forthcoming from Tesseract Books (_The Slow Engines of Time and Other Stories_). She is also a translator herself, translating writer such as Guy Gavriel Kay, James Tiptree Jr. and Marion Zimmer Bradley into French. The site with the most up-to-date info on English on her is: http://www.euro.net/mark-space/ElisabethVonarburg.html Howard Scott ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:08:54 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sven Holmström Subject: SV: Re: [*FSFFU*] translations Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >Not feminist, but a female Swedish sf writer was Karin Boye. Her >_Kallocain_ reminds a lot of _1984_ but was written nearly 20 years >before. IMO it's worth reading. I felt I had to comment on this one. I don't know how well knonw Boye is outside Sweden, but I would think she is pretty unknown? I think she, in Sweden is more famous for her modernist poetry. Very few Swedish 20th century lyricists are quoted more than she is. I think it's a bit misleading to call her sf writer, the only sf she wrote was Kallocain, and I don't think she saw it as sf, even if it is (and it is). Kallocain is the best of her prose works, and I would say it's among those ten books that has meant most to me. As you said it reminds a lot of 1984 (which I also liked a lot) but in my opinion it's far better. Without saying too much about it I would like to say that Orwells piece is not as well related, and particularly his characterization of the state is very much of a caricature. Boye doesn't use the same very ironic and exaggerating way to describe it, does it smoother and more realistic. In my opinion. Sven ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:32:52 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: translations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4 May 99, at 17:17, HScott/PAronoff wrote: > _L'Euguélionne_ was published in French in 1976. > An English translation was published in 1982, > but it is long out of print (the one mentioned on > Laura Quilter's website). I published a new translation, > _The Euguelion_ (Montreal: Alter Ego Editions) in > 1996. This translation won the Governer > General's Literary Award for Translation. Howard I'm stopping off in Quebec and Toronto to drum up some business on my way back from the US in the middle of June. Any chance you can recommend a bookshop in one or both of those places? I won't have a driver or much time, so I'll need an easily located place. > Élisabeth [Vonarburg] writes in French, and much of > her work has been translated into English. I saw one of her books in a Johannesburg bookshop when we were living there last August. For some reason I thought she was an American (must have missed the E acute!). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:34:08 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: translations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 4 May 99, at 17:34, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > No, I didn't know that site, not being an especial > Cherryh fan. And I just checked: there are 6 > books by Cherryh currently in print in German. But > some people like to read the original when they can. I must get a German Cherryh or two when I'm in Berlin in August. It's disgraceful being able to read a language and not make some attempt to read its literature so I'm going to ease my way in to German fiction via translations. I've tried to tackle the Asian part of the problem but thus far have info only out of Singapore. A friend who works at "SIMEX" (no - not Nick Leeson!) tells me that sf/f is read "quite widely" but only English works seem to be available. "Women's" sf is not common although MZB (she seems to be ubiquitous), Cherryh, and Bujold are easily obtainable. Singapore is a pretty controlled place and there is some sort of censorship (both self and official) so I would think that much interesting work would be screened out. I was particularly interested in which feminist sf/f has been translated in languages with non-Latin scripts and thus far haven't come up with anything. Mainline sf/f doesn't seem to be much better. Some Asimov (not sure what) has been translated into Greek and "Serbo-croat" (not sure whether into Cyrillic) but that's about as far as I've got. The "Foreign Languages Publishing House" is alleged to have published translations by Russian women sf writers. Does anyone know anything about these? The FLPH itself seems to have disappeared into the mists of time, but that's probably because just now no one in Russia seems to be able to organise a boozeup in a brewery let alone effective communication. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:22:20 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: SV: Re: [*FSFFU*] translations In-Reply-To: <001201be9650$ca84bf40$baedec82@f186.ryd.student.liu.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On 4 May 99 Sven Holmström wrote: > Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > >Not feminist, but a female Swedish sf writer was Karin Boye. Her > >_Kallocain_ reminds a lot of _1984_ but was written nearly 20 years > >before. IMO it's worth reading. > > I think she, in Sweden is more famous for her modernist poetry. Very > few Swedish 20th century lyricists are quoted more than she is. I > think it's a bit misleading to call her sf writer, the only sf she > wrote was Kallocain, and I don't think she saw it as sf, even if it > is (and it is). Kallocain is the best of her prose works, and I You're perfectly right. I was sloppy calling Boye a sf writer because I actually knew better. I discovered Boye's Kallocain last year and was surprised that it's not better known, especially in comparison to 1984. The Karin Boye Society has a website http://www.ivo.se/kboye/home-english.html including also a bibliography of Boye's work. According to that Kallocain was translated into a lot of (European) languages. On 5 May 99 Mike Stanton wrote: > I must get a German Cherryh or two when I'm in Berlin in August. > It's disgraceful being able to read a language and not make some > attempt to read its literature so I'm going to ease my way in to > German fiction via translations. Well, that's a new way. I started reading English with books I already knew in German but with English authors. As a teenager I simply adored Jane Austen and Dorothy Sayers and wanted to read the books in the original language. Unfortunately I never developed any enthusiam for a French author to carry me over the hurdles at the beginning. Perhaps I should start with Elisabeth Vonarburg which so far I've read in German. But where to get a French copy of _The Maerlande Chronicles_? Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:48:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: translations In-Reply-To: <80256768.0035E381.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike, At 10:32 AM 05/05/1999 +0100, you wrote: >I'm stopping off in Quebec and Toronto to drum up some business on my way >back from the US in the middle of June. Any chance you can recommend a >bookshop in one or both of those places? I won't have a driver or much >time, so I'll need an easily located place. Are you looking specificially for SF bookstores? Both Montreal and Toronto have specialized SF bookstores. Both are centrally located. Nebula Books (Montreal) has a Web site: http://www.nebulabooks.com/index.html It's at 1832 Ste. Catherine West. I found info on Bakka in Toronto at: http://www.toronto.com/E/V/TORON/0013/48/69/cs1.html They don't seem to have their own site (which surprises me). If you want info on general bookstores, let me know. For Montreal, specify whether you want French as well as English. I know stores in Toronto a bit too. >> Élisabeth [Vonarburg] writes in French, and much of >> her work has been translated into English. > >I saw one of her books in a Johannesburg bookshop when we were living there >last August. For some reason I thought she was an American (must have >missed the E acute!). The accent on the E is often omitted. The French (in France), it seems, tend much more to leave accents off capital letters than here in Canada. In the days of typewriters, of course, it wasn't possible, but there's no reason not to be put the accents these days. Howard Scott & Aronoff Translation and Editorial Services Montreal, Quebec, Canada mailto:alterego@alterego.montreal.qc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:49:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: HScott/PAronoff Subject: Re: translations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry, that message was meant to be private. Must look before sending. Howard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:27:58 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; I've just finished reading 2 of James White books on medicine in a huge interstellar hospital. Although the medicine they practise doesnt seem very advanced, I found it interesting because I'm currently working in hospital administration. Does any one know if there is any medical femisf? Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 03:23:32 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Translations Comments: cc: mike@mellody.co.za Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Joan Slonczewski's CV which is posted on the Kenyon College Website shows that two of her books have been translated into Italian. I don't know whether their still in print. I've pasted the relevant pece here "The Wall around Eden. Quaker teen-agers face the environmental consequences of nuclear war. William Morrow, 1989; Avon pbk, 1990; Italian translation, Editrice Nord, 1991. A Door into Ocean. Women biologists genetically engineer fantastic creatures on a planet covered entirely by ocean. Science Fiction Book of the Month Club Main Selection, 1986; Arbor House, 1986; Avon pbk, 1987; Italian translation, Editrice Nord, 1988" Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:36:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Medical femsf In-Reply-To: <19990506072759.55690.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 6 May 1999, Ruth t wrote: > I've just finished reading 2 of James White books on medicine in a huge > interstellar hospital. Although the medicine they practise doesnt seem very > advanced, I found it interesting because I'm currently working in hospital > administration. Does any one know if there is any medical femisf? > > > Ruth > The first thing that comes to mind is a book like Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy which is essentially (among many other things) a critique of what's wrong with Patriarchal-style medical practices. It seems to me that there are other books that do something similar, although I don't have any titles in my head at the moment. Oh, right Josephine Saxton's Queen of the States is also, in part, a critique of mental hospitals. Amy Thomson's The Color of Distance concerns a woman castaway on an alien world where she's deathly allergic to everything and the alien medical practices that keep her alive. In the sequel, Through Alien Eyes, due out in July, the aliens are brought back to Earth and an attempt is made to adapt their medical practices to an Earth hospital. Lois Bujold's Ethan of Athos has a (more or less) gay male doctor protagonist and explores some aspects of reproductive medicine from, to use someone on this list's phrase, a "stealth feminist" perspective. Bujold has training as a medical technician and various medical scenarios pop up in much of her fiction. Vonda McIntyre's protagonist in Dreamsnake is a healer, but not within a conventional hospital setting. Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 11:49:32 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 6 May 99, at 0:27, Ruth t wrote: >I've just finished reading 2 of James White books on medicine in a huge >interstellar hospital. Although the medicine they practise doesnt seem >very advanced, I found it interesting because I'm currently working in >hospital administration. Does any one know if there is any medical femisf? I've read a few of James White's books and I agree about the "not very advanced". They remind me of Frank Slaughter's books which my father who was a medical missionary had a huge collection of. I think that some of White's books are definitely feminist in principle. Did you read Code Blue Emergency? The hero in that is a female alien. His "nonmedical book, Open prison, is also feminist in tone. The best books in that line I've read are the Dr Shona Taylor books by Jodie Lynn Nye (Taylors Ark and Medicine show). They're very warm and humorous stories about a woman doctor, her family and a really funny bunch of "pets". While performing medical miracles, she's raising her family and fighting off repo agents who are trying to repossess her ship Sybil. I also seem to remember a short story called Medic by Mercedes Lackey in an anthology called Battlestation Book 2 edited by David Drake. Perhaps Lackey's written medical sf stories. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:21:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6 May 99, at 0:27, Ruth t wrote: > I've just finished reading 2 of James White books on medicine in a huge > interstellar hospital. Although the medicine they practise doesnt seem > very advanced, I found it interesting because I'm currently working in > hospital administration. Does any one know if there is any medical femisf? Ruth I don't know whether having the chief character a doctor who's also a torturer qualifies, but Susan R Matthews' three books about Dr Andrej Kosuisko (_An exchange of hostages_, _Prisoner of conscience_ and _Hour of judgment_) are about a medical man. Matthews was, I seem to remember from an article I read last year, was some sort of hospital administrator or support person during her time in the US Army so you'd at least have that in common! Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:36:47 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: >I've read a few of James White's books and I agree about the "not very >advanced". They remind me of Frank Slaughter's books which my father who >was a medical missionary had a huge collection of. I think that some of >White's books are definitely feminist in principle. Did you read Code Blue >Emergency? The hero in that is a female alien. His "nonmedical book, Open >prison, is also feminist in tone. Now that you remind me, James Whites books do resemble Frank Slaughter. I picked up a few at a garage sale a few years ago. My partner who's in her last year of residency at the hospital where I work said that Slaughter's writing is very realistic and for his day, he started writing well before WWII, very advanced. I haven't read Code Blue. The books I read were Sector General and Final Diagnosis. I must try and get some more. About the "not very advanced", sometimes my partner's friends from the hospital come over for bs sessions and after a few tequilas they usually start discussing the future of medicine. Some of the suggestions they come up with are much more outrageous but no less likely than some of the stuff in science fiction. I've been reading a lot on epidemiology, the speciality Cyn hopes to go into, and some of the true life tales about the Ebola virus and so on are a lot stranger than fiction. Have you noticed how much more advanced the medical facilities in the Star Trek series are than in almost any written sf/f? I particularly like the Doctor in the ST Voyager series, but any one of the series seems to have advanced medical facilities unlike most sf where the medical techniques dont seem to be much more advanced than we have now. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:45:34 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >Matthews was, I seem to remember from an article I read last year, >was some sort of hospital administrator or support person during >her time in the US Army so you'd at least have that in common! I hope she enjoyed it a lot more than I do. I can't wait to write my bar exam and get out into the real world. Dealing with doctors and nurses especially gives me the screams. Have you read Nicole Griffith's Ammonite? I haven't read it but somebody off list said that it had quite a bit of "medical" info behind it. The only book of hers that I've read is The Blue Place which is very good but is a sf thriller type. As far as I can tell, shes only written three books - the other one is Slow River which I haven't read either is supposed to be a thriller-ecofeminist novel. Before I forget again I spoke to Cyn about the Blish story whose name Mike couldn't remember in his note about Slonczewski. It was called Surface Tension. I looked it up in my sf encyclopedia (I think it must be the same one that Todd Mason mentioned) and the story's mentioned in there as well. Clute calls it " one of the great tales of conceptual breakthrough". Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 01:51:16 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Apology for posting private mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Oops! This was a private note of Ruth's that I accidently sent to the list instead of to other people on my distribution list. Sorry about that everyone especially Ruth. I still have got the hang of the cHotMail program with Pegasus Mail. Claudia >Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > > >Matthews was, I seem to remember from an article I read last year, > >was some sort of hospital administrator or support person during > >her time in the US Army so you'd at least have that in common! > >I hope she enjoyed it a lot more than I do. I can't wait to write my bar >exam and get out into the real world. Dealing with doctors and nurses >especially gives me the screams. > >Have you read Nicole Griffith's Ammonite? I haven't read it but somebody >off list said that it had quite a bit of "medical" info behind it. The >only book of hers that I've read is The Blue Place which is very good but >is a sf thriller type. As far as I can tell, shes only written three books >- the other one is Slow River which I haven't read either is supposed to >be a thriller-ecofeminist novel. > >Before I forget again I spoke to Cyn about the Blish story whose name Mike >couldn't remember in his note about Slonczewski. It was called Surface >Tension. I looked it up in my sf encyclopedia (I think it must be the same >one that Todd Mason mentioned) and the story's mentioned in there as well. >Clute calls it " one of the great tales of conceptual breakthrough". > > > >Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:08:29 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >Matthews was, I seem to remember from an article I read last year, >was some sort of hospital administrator or support person during >her time in the US Army so you'd at least have that in common! Have you read Nicole Griffith's Ammonite? I haven't read it but somebody off list said that it had quite a bit of "medical" info behind it. The only book of hers that I've read is The Blue Place which is very good but is a sf thriller type. As far as I can tell, shes only written three books - the other one is Slow River which I haven't read either is supposed to be a thriller-ecofeminist novel. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:49:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joslyn Grassby Subject: Medical femsf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might also have a look at "A healer's war" by Elizabeth Ann Scarborough. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7 May 99, at 2:08, Ruth t wrote: > Have you read Nicole Griffith's Ammonite? I haven't read it but somebody > off list said that it had quite a bit of "medical" info behind it. The > only book of hers that I've read is The Blue Place which is very good but > is a sf thriller type. As far as I can tell, shes only written three books > - the other one is Slow River which I haven't read either is supposed to > be a thriller-ecofeminist novel. I don't really think that one can count _Ammonite_ because I think the background is really biological rather than medical otherwise we're going to set the mesh too wide. Mike came up with 1:34 ratio of medical:other for thrillers and much less than 1:100 for medical sf. Medical femsf appears to be very rare even more so than in "mainstream" sf (having said that, someone will immediately list 20000 extremely well known works ). Claudia's point about "medicine" in fantasy probably correlating with "heal*" is well made; I suggest try for healers/healing etc in fantasy. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Clarion in danger, from another source Comments: To: HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Comments: cc: Skarhead@yahoo.com, follinge@astro.ocis.temple.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain forwarded from SF-Lit From: Maryelizabeth on 05/06/99 05:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT @SMTP@EXCHANGE cc: Subject: Clarion from another source > An URGENT REQUEST from DAMON KNIGHT (from Genie): > "The original Clarion at MSU is about to undergo a review to decide whether > it has value to the university and should be continued. Testimonials from > former students and instructors would be very helpful. They should be sent to > Lister M. Matheson, matheson@pilot.msu.edu." > - -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:36:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: sf conference Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu Comments: cc: Matthew Higgins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable attached is a call for a conference in the UK y'all might be interested in ...

>From: "Matthew Higgins" <mh64@leicester.ac.uk>
>To: lquilter@igc.apc.org
>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 08:25:14 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Science fiction Web page
>Reply-to: mh64@leicester.ac.uk
>Priority: normal
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40)
>X-Status:
>
>Hi
>
>I recently visited your web page on feminist sci-fi. I wondered if
>you would be interested in a conference being held in the UK on=20
>science fiction & organization. I have attached the call for papers.
>We are currently looking for abstracts on gender & sci-fi.
>Sorry for this unsolicited email.
>Best Wishes
>Matthew
>
>-----------------
>Matthew Higgins
>Management Centre
>University of Leicester
>University Road
>Leicester
>LE1 7RH
>Tel: 0116 2525644
>Fax: 0116 252 3949
>Email: mh64@le.ac.uk

A Call for Papers
=A0 =93Science Fiction and Organization=94
A Two Day Conference

14-15 September 1999
Belmont House Hotel
Leicester

Although popular accounts of the actions of organizations frequently call upon tropes developed within science fiction, the marginal (and seemingly non-academic) nature of science fiction has meant that it has been largely ignored in the serious business of writing organizational theory. Nevertheless science fiction can be seen as a diagnosis of the present and a vision of possible futures. As such it provides a contemporary resource with which to interrogate both contemporary organizing processes and organizations as institutions.
This conference aims to explore how science fiction can enrich studies of organizations. Authors may wish to consider such themes as:

=B7 examining how organizational theory and developments in science fiction interrelate;
=B7 narrating how immersion in science fiction can alter the reader=92s perspective and how this, in turn, feeds an understanding of organization;
=B7 discussion of how the exploration of popula= r themes in science fiction (such as identity, the nature of reality, the all-powerful corporation, the creation and maintenance of meta-narratives) correspond to approaches taken to similar work within organizational theory.

An edited collection of selected papers will be published by Routledge.

The cost of the conference is =A3165. This includes one night accommodation, the dinner and lunches.

Abstracts (max 500 words) should be submitted to the address below by 31-05-1999.
For further details please contact: Matthew Higgins @
Management Centre, University of Leicester, Leicester, England. LE1 7RH
E-mail:=A0 mh64@le.ac.uk Fax: 0116 2523949 Tel: 0116 2525644



----------------------------------------------------------------------=20


A Further Call for Papers
Science Fiction & Organization
14-15 September 1999
Belmont House Hotel
Leicester UK

This is a second request for abstracts for the Science Fiction and Organization Conference which will be held in Leicester (UK).

In an effort to identify papers covering themes which are currently under-represented we are requesting abstracts for the following areas:

* Gender and Science fiction
* The Star Wars phenomenon

A collection of selected papers will be published by Routledge in 2000, to be edited by Martin Parker, Geoff Lightfoot (Keele University), Warren Smith and Matthew Higgins (Leicester University).

The cost of the conference is 165 (GBP) and this includes one nights accommodation, the dinner and lunches. A limited number of places are available for people who wish to attend but not give papers.

Abstracts (max 500 words) should be submitted to the address below by 31-05-1999.

For further details about the conference please contact:

Matthew Higgins
Management Centre
University of Leicester
University Road
LEICESTER
LE1 7RH
Email: mh64@le.ac.uk
Tel: 0116 2525644
Fax: 0116 2523949






 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:44:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: What's the point? In-Reply-To: <19990503202324.1982.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 May 1999, Ruth t wrote: > I can bet pretty nasty at times but this is the sickest posting I've ever > seen. Does she do it often? > > Ruth Yes, she does. I can only bow to your own nice manners of politely inquiring about someone in their presence. In fact, I'm glad if you found it offensive. People like you is exactly the reason why one has to "be pretty nasty at times." Bite me. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: What's the point? In-Reply-To: <19990504081406.3284.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 May 1999, Ruth t wrote: > You don't think that using words like "a certain anatomic defeciency" in a > argument is sick? It may be the way you men like to argue but I and a lot of > other women find it offensive. Well, I and a lot of other women don't. Whatever made you think you've got the right to represent _all_ women (or prescribe them some special, "unlike them men" way to argue) I'm afraid you are a bit delusional. Besides, you can always switch to some sewing circle or other place of strictly "ladylike" behaivior. > We've sorted it out in private and while I disagree with a lot of what he > says at least he doesn't go round making dirty remarks. True. Making dirty remarks seems to be _your_ job. By the way, it never crossed my mind that Santanico is a guy. Is she? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:28:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: What's the point? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:02 PM 7/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >By the way, it never crossed my mind that Santanico is a guy. Is she? > >Marina LOL. Nope. I'm beginning to think that the rather masculine-sounding nick was a mistake, in retrospect... Sant.