From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sat May 22 19:48:31 1999 Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:43:24 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9905B" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:11:17 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 7 May 99, at 12:10, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >Claudia's point about "medicine" in fantasy probably correlating with >"heal*" is well made; I suggest try for healers/healing etc in fantasy. I don't think we've exhausted the list yet. I've only just remembered our discussion in December about parallel ancient/modern times in sf (like Kage Baker's _The Garden of Iden_ and Connie Willis' _The Doomsday Book). What about Ann Benson's book _The Plague Tales_? Or even (at a pinch) _The Doomsday Book_ itself? (For those on the list who haven't read it) _The Plague Tales_ has two stories, one about a physician during the Black Death (in the 1300s) and the other about medical people in a future London when diseases are rife because antibiotics don't work. I didn't think much of her historical knowledge but the story was very good. The sequel (which I haven't read) was, I believe, published recently and is about a physician in France searching for a cure for the Black Death in France and a near-future woman searching for a cure for a genetic disease afflicting Jewish people. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 06:18:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Anthea I'm sure Claudia's right, we haven't exhausted the list. What about the three sf books (_FireLord_, Mentor_ and _Healer_) by Kris Jensen which we picked up in Boston? I thought you'd read them. I haven't read any yet, but according to the blurb there a doctor in the last one. I must get around to reading those when I get back on Tuesday. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:08:28 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 7 May 99, at 12:10, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >I don't really think that one can count _Ammonite_ because I think the >background is really biological rather than medical otherwise we're going >to set the mesh too wide. Mike came up with 1:34 ratio of medical:other >for thrillers and much less than 1:100 for medical sf. Medical femsf >appears to be very rare even more so than in "mainstream" sf (having said >that, someone will immediately list 20000 extremely well known works ). Even if Mike's figures are grossly wrong, they still show a big difference between medicine in sf and ordinary fiction. You don't suppose it could be just an artefact of the process? What we see isn't the proportion of medical stuff overall but the amount of medical stuff that was *still in print* when the CDs were made. Perhaps there's a cyclical component - you know, medical books become fashionable, lots of authors write them, the market becomes glutted, they go out of fashion, authors stop writing them, the is a shortage in the market and so the cycle goes. Rather like we saw recently with volcano and asteriod striking movies. Perhaps 10-15 years ago medical sf books were *popular* (although they would never make more than a small proportion of the market), now they're not, but in 5 years.... If you look at Mike's list it certainly looks as if medical mysteries go through cycles so why not sf? Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 07:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Cycles in feminist sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7 May 99, at 23:08, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Perhaps there's a cyclical component - you know, medical books > become fashionable, lots of authors write them, the market becomes > glutted, they go out of fashion, authors stop writing them, the is > a shortage in the market and so the cycle goes. Rather like we saw > recently with volcano and asteriod striking movies. Perhaps 10-15 > years ago medical sf books were *popular* (although they would > never make more than a small proportion of the market), now they're > not, but in 5 years.... If you look at Mike's list it certainly > looks as if medical mysteries go through cycles so why not sf? I'm sure you're right. I think it's not only just in the subject covered but in the format of an author's work. A few years ago, almost every new book seemed to be part of a continuing series - you know, Part 45 of the Qwerty series and often if one hadn't read Parts 1-44, very little of the book made sense. Today books seem to be much more stand-alone - "series books" seem to be just set in a particular universe rather than having the same characters pursuing the same goal. Even where books do form part of a continuing series, usually it's much easier now than in the past to start with (say) the 2nd of the series. Lois McMaster Bujold's _Miles_ series is I think like that; the later ones are much more "stand-alone" that the 2nd or 3rd. It may have been a commercial decision. So many "pilot" books for series have been published and then vanished without a trace because few people liked them. Publishers must be wary of committing themselves and signing contracts for 2 or 3 books without knowing whether the first one is going to sell over the medium term. I thought that much of the risk costing for the "pilot" book was done on the assumption that if the second and subsequent books were successful, the first book would have good sales for longer than usual. I must admit that I'm always dubious about buying the first book of a new series by a new author because I hate the thought of being left dangling! AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 11:36:41 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: Re: What's the point? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marina > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Ruth t wrote: > > > You don't think that using words like "a certain anatomic defeciency" in a > > argument is sick? It may be the way you men like to argue but I and a lot of > > other women find it offensive. > > Well, I and a lot of other women don't. Whatever made you think > you've got the right to represent _all_ women (or prescribe them some > special, "unlike them men" way to argue) I'm afraid you are a bit > delusional. > > Besides, you can always switch to some sewing circle or other place of > strictly "ladylike" behaivior. Marina, I have to be honest, I also found your comment offensive. Often you have cogent insights. But that kind of comment is beneath you. You are a better person than that. -- Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:57:33 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lorie G Sauble-otto Subject: Re: What's the point? In-Reply-To: <199905080228.VAA30518@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Listmistress, I have neither the time nor the patience for this kind of dribble. Would someone out there be so kind as to forward instructions for unsubscribing and subscribing to the more "serious" version? Thanks, Lorie Lorie Sauble-Otto, ABD Graduate Associate in Teaching The University of Arizona Dept. of French & Italian PO Box 210067 Tucson, AZ 85721-0067 Phone (520)621-7349 Fax (520)626-8022 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 18:20:14 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Medical femsf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone mentioned Chelsea Quin Yarbro's _Time of the Fourth Horseman_? Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:36:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: _Swastika night_ by Katherine Burdekin In-Reply-To: <19990503201107.23829.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I saw one copy of it at my school library when I began my research into Feminist Science Fiction in 1997. I have had really good luck with Powell's used books out of oregon, Powell.com is the note at the bottom of my receipt. I found a used paperback copy of Rats and Gargoyles there...I wanted to read it after reading the discussion about it here on this list. I felt lucky this time out because Amazon told me they would not be able to get me the book even after 6 weeks, grin. And I might be mistaken, but I remember reading about Swastika in a 1975 or 76 issue of a journal that had an entire issue devoted to FSF??? Would have to dig into my filing cabinet to find the source again...but it was one of those early issues that took an entire space to try to define works that fit under that category and Swastika was mentioned. take care, Jo Ann Jo Ann At 03:11 PM 5/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >Katherine Burdekin's _Swastika night_, which was written sometime in the 30s >was recommended to me as the first really powerful feminist sf novel. Other >than that it predicted a Nazi victory my informant could tell me little. > >Has anyone heard of it or (most importantly) know where it can be obtained? > > > >AJ >Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:28:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: HOMer awards! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990508173656.00e8bec0@silent-running.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Subj: HOMer Award Winners! Section: The HOMers >To: ALL Saturday, May 08, 1999 2:23:00 AM >From: SysOp Dupa T Parrot, 70040,104 #1643482 >May 7th, 1999 >==================================================================== >=========== >The 1998 CompuServe Science Fiction and Fantasy Forums Annual HOMer Awards >==================================================================== >=========== >I am pleased to announce the results of the 1998 Homer Awards! > >Best Novel: KIRINYAGA, Mike Resnick (Del Rey) >Best Novella: "Aurora In Four Voices", Catherine Asaro (Analog, Dec 98) >Best Novelette: "Echea", Kristine Kathryn Rusch (Asimov's, Jul 98) >Best Short Story: "Face Of God", Barb Galler-Smith (On Spec, 98) >Best Dramatic Presentation: "Sleeping In Light", Babylon 5 >HOMer Award winners receive a distinctive certificate, with the >name of the author and the title of the work done in calligraphy. >Congratulations to the winners! >-SysOp Dupa T. Parrot, Technical Consultant >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dupa >OzWin 2.30.1 O- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:55:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: HOMer awards! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990508232659.0095a300@mail.geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Congrats Catherine!!!! Jo Ann 8) At 11:28 PM 5/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Subj: HOMer Award Winners! Section: The HOMers >>To: ALL Saturday, May 08, 1999 2:23:00 AM >>From: SysOp Dupa T Parrot, 70040,104 #1643482 >>May 7th, 1999 >>==================================================================== >>=========== >>The 1998 CompuServe Science Fiction and Fantasy Forums Annual HOMer Awards >>==================================================================== >>=========== >>I am pleased to announce the results of the 1998 Homer Awards! >> >>Best Novel: KIRINYAGA, Mike Resnick (Del Rey) >>Best Novella: "Aurora In Four Voices", Catherine Asaro (Analog, Dec 98) >>Best Novelette: "Echea", Kristine Kathryn Rusch (Asimov's, Jul 98) >>Best Short Story: "Face Of God", Barb Galler-Smith (On Spec, 98) >>Best Dramatic Presentation: "Sleeping In Light", Babylon 5 >>HOMer Award winners receive a distinctive certificate, with the >>name of the author and the title of the work done in calligraphy. >>Congratulations to the winners! >>-SysOp Dupa T. Parrot, Technical Consultant >>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dupa >>OzWin 2.30.1 O- > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 22:41:55 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Cycles in feminist sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >Today books seem to be much more stand-alone - "series books" seem to be >just set in a particular universe rather than having >the same characters pursuing the same goal. Even where books do >form part of a continuing series, usually it's much easier now >than in the past to start with (say) the 2nd of the series. >Lois McMaster Bujold's _Miles_ series is I think >like that; the later ones are much more "stand-alone" >that the 2nd or 3rd. I've noticed that too. I don't think that people have the patience any more to wait for a year or two for a sequel which raises more questions than it answers. I remember those endless, repetitious David Eddings series. I don't agree with Mike when he says that Cherryh doesn't do this and that you can start with any one of her books because I bought The Kif strike back and I couldn't make head or tail of it. >It may have been a commercial decision. So many "pilot" >books for series have been published and then vanished without a trace >because few people liked them. Publishers >must be wary of committing themselves and signing >contracts for 2 or 3 books without knowing whether the first one is going >to sell over the medium term. It must be a lot more difficult for a feminist author specially a firsttimer to sell the first of a series because of the much smaller market. I thought that The Sparrow was definitely written as a standalone novel for that reason. I've got the idea that The Children of God which I think is just a little bit inferior was commissioned because of the success of the first. There didn't seem to be that many hooks for sequels at the end or in the body of The Sparrow. It must have taken a lot of persuasion on Maria Doria Russell's part to get a hidebound publisher to accept such a controversial work. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 22:42:56 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Medical femsf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: >Perhaps there's a cyclical component - you know, medical books >become fashionable, lots of authors write them, the market becomes >glutted, they go out of fashion, authors stop writing them, the is >a shortage in the market and so the cycle goes. I'm not trying to split hairs when I say I don't think that its really cyclical because "cyclical" really means that a fashion changes through a full circle ending up at the end in about the same position that it started. The example that Anthea gave about economic cycles applies also here, conditions at the end of the economic cycle are often so changed at the end that there's no way that even approximately the same sort of cycle could start again. I think that the book industry has changed so much over the last 20? years that the conditions that existed in the 60s-70s where publishers were prepared to publish experimental books could never happen again. There've been too many mergers for small niche publishers to flourish. Books have become so expensive to produce and sell that only the most popular authors are being published. Do you remember the comment about the "death of the midlist author" from You've got mail? Well that what's really happening. Also I think the market has changed. People wouldn't be prepared to pay for the sort of books with a message they read during the 70s, the sort of book that was almost all message and not much plot or character development. Feminists in those days thought that the message was the important thing. People today want books that are wellwritten, full of adventure and character development AND with a message (like The Sparrow, Brown Girl in the Ring and lots of others). If The Sparrow had been stark and stripped to the bone like the Joanna Russ book we discussed last week, I'll bet no publisher today would have touched it with a 10ft pole. Of course people like Mike who are probably in the majority don't want the message either and it's women and men like him who'll buy David Brin and leave Nalo Hopkinsen on the shelf. Ive got to admit that I'm responsible too because I dont support new women authors as much as I should. With books being so expensive I don't really like buying books by a new author until the paperback comes out. I also try to get books at discounts or off of "2 for $1" tables. Except for very good books I never buy new when I can buy used even if I have to wait a few months to buy at all. It's people like me that are blocking new writers from coming into the market and letting independent books stores go to the wall. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 01:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Cycles in feminist sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8 May 99 at 2:42:56 Ruth t wrote: > Do you remember the comment about the "death of the midlist author" > from You've got mail? Well that what's really happening. Yes indeed. There's a rumour that a large US firm of managment consultants *requires* all its trainees to see _You've got mail_ and when I saw the film, I realised why. The writer/director really knew what the sales business is all about. The film illustrates perfectly one general principle of selling - in any market and any economic conditions, people overwhelmingly favour value-for-money over service. So if you're selling "standardised" goods like books, the place to add value is in the goods themselves - not at the top end in service. And I think that's why books have had to change. Sf/f books have become longer, more descriptive, and with arguably better characterisation and plots because authors/publishers have realised that if they didn't change, people would quit reading sf/f. I think this did happen to some extent in the late 60s-70s when one gets the feeling that sf/f became too academic, too bound into messages and got out of sync with public tastes. Even at a time when some of the great feminist (like _The female man_, _Dreamsnakes_, _Motherlines_), I think that sf/f was becoming fossilised. Fortunately there was still a demand for sf/f literature of the "old" type. At first this was partly satisfied by an upsurge in reprints of fantasy (especially of the "greats" like Robert E Howard) but is now satisfied by new authors capable of writing in, and improving on, the old genres. To be honest, I think that the work produced over the last 10-15 years has been far better than the sf/f produced during the so-called "Golden Age". And I think the improvement which extends over all genres has come about solely because people - the ordinary reader - demanded value-for-money. Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:25:35 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: HOMer awards! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/9/99 9:42:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, athena@GEOCITIES.COM writes: << >Best Novella: "Aurora In Four Voices", Catherine Asaro (Analog, Dec 98) >> Yes! Thank you for women's voices everywhere! Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:19:03 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Cycles in feminist sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 9 May 99, at 1:58, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >Yes indeed. There's a rumour that a large US firm of managment consultants *requires* all its trainees to >see _You've got mail_ and when I saw the film, I realised >why. The writer/director really knew what the sales >business is all about. The film illustrates perfectly one general principle >of selling - in any market and >any economic conditions, people overwhelmingly favour >value-for-money over service. So if you're selling >"standardised" goods like books, the place to add value is in the goods >themselves - not at the top >end in service. I thought You've Got Mail was an interesting, if oversentimental film but I don't see how it was really original. The same story must have been made into films a hundred times. Big company tries to take over small shop's business. Small shop owner fights back but is crushed by big business' financial muscle. Even "the small shopkeeper, Kathleen, falls in love with business tycoon, Joe" must have been done many times before in film and romance fiction. I'm sure that the same thing has happened countless times in real life ... you yourself told me that story about that bookshop in Birmingham which had exactly the same sort of problems. A couple of months ago there were some postings on this list about the problems with independent bookstores being put out of business and some I think were asking for donations to stay open. So it's not just in Europe that there's the problem of small business driving out the small woman. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 14:44:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: Cycles in feminist sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9 May 99, at 11:19, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Big company tries to take over small shop's business. Small shop > owner fights back but is crushed by big business' financial muscle. > Even "the small shopkeeper, Kathleen, falls in love with business > tycoon, Joe" must have been done many times before in film and > romance fiction. *That* story has been used many times but I thought that Nora Ephron in _You've got mail_ caught the real story, the true essence of business. Put it another way: big business comes into town. Small business owner Kathleen, *relying on the loyalty of her customers*, goes to the mattresses to fight tycoon, Joe. Kathleen gets lots of publicity but this doesn't help her business survive *because her customers don't stay loyal*. Customers only stay loyal to a business while it fullfills their needs properly; clearly Kathleen's business didn't do that. She assumed that the enemy was the tycoon she attacked, but the real enemy was her narrow customer base with whom she had lost touch. She thought that her customer base hadn't changed, that what they wanted was what her mother had given them 40 years previously. She was wrong. To survive, Kathleen needed to fight Joe off by addressing her customers' needs. Both Kathleen and Joe sold the same general items so the only way they could compete was on product range and service factors. Kathleen gave customers good reading advice, but offset this with a limited range of books, high prices, assistants who hassled browsers and no refreshments. Joe gave them a large range of books, discounts, hassle-free browsing and a coffee bar. The only customers Kathleen would keep were those who thought the advice she gave outweighted the disadvantages of doing business with her. Those would be few indeed because most people would get her advice and then sneak off to Joe's to buy the recommended books at lower prices! It's the same with authors and their fans. If an author's readership changes, she's either got to change with them or find new readers. Otherwise she quickly becomes just another has-been. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:48:35 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Cycles in feminist sf/f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: >At first this was partly satisfied by an upsurge in reprints of fantasy >(especially of the "greats" like Robert E Howard) but is now satisfied by >new authors capable of writing in, and improving on, the old genres. To be >honest, I think that the work produced over the last 10-15 years has been >far better than the sf/f produced during the so-called "Golden Age". And I >think the improvement which extends over all genres has come about solely >because people - the ordinary reader - demanded value-for-money. I think that what it's all about, value for money. I'm sick and tired of handing out money to people just because theyre women or lesbian or gay or minority or whatever. Things cost so much these days that I've got to think before I can buy a book or go out to a show. I can't remember how many times people have said to me "you must support so and so because she's lesbian and youre lesbian" and I've bought books or seen shows I didn't enjoy or ate in restaurants with bad food. Heck I even donated money and voted for Bill Clinton because he was supposed to be the women's friend and look how he turned out. I know the economy is supposed to be on the up and up and plenty of jobs are available, but I've found over the last few years that I seem to have less and less left at the end of the month. It's not just me either, a lot of people at the hospital feel the same way. Wages just don't go as far as they used to. Its almost a necessity to live with someone just to make enough to live decently. Books are becoming luxuries. That's why I agree with Anthea that the cost of books is far more important than the service you get in a bookstore. I know we should all support women's businesses and independent bookstores but is it fair to ask me and other women to cut back on our reading or other necessities just so we can give support especially when it doesn't really help? Anyway how good or useful is the service in these places? Most times I go into a shop I don't need advice and don't want a salesperson standing next to me when I'm trying to decide what I can afford to buy. The advise that one gets from the owners of these places is mostly good, but most of the salespeople are minimum wage and know nothing about anything. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:52:56 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail / bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was a little surprised to see it described as a "sf thriller," when I saw it as a more straightforward mystery/thriller. How did others on the list experience it? Congratulations to Catherine on her HOmer. I thought "You've got mail" was not only anti-independent, but also anti-feminist. I believe if HE had the small independent and SHE worked for the megachain, she would have seen the "error of her ways." Also I think she was deliberately given a children's bookstore, rather than a "real" one. Short tirade over. However, I will say I see a resurgence in the small publishing market in response to the readers looking for something beyond the cookie cutter homogeneous selections of Retangular Objects R Us. Dear Ruth and all: There will be true knowledgable lovers of books who are available to discuss the books you are interested in almost every store, from MG to the megastores, IMO. With any luck, customers looking for such will find them. Price certainly is an issue. However, if the independents are driven out of business by Amazon and Barnes and Noble, those companies will no longer offer their product at discounts (the degree of which varies and has a lot to do with the perception of themselves they are really selling). And IMO the selection of intellectual properties will diminish as well without a variety of outlets. See my small publishing comment. Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:15:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anna Fallas Subject: Mathemagics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I've just finished reading "Mathemagics" by Margaret Ball. I was wondering if somebody else has read it. Did you like it? What else has she published? Is there a book before Mathemagics? Any info will be appreciated! AnnaF RedWood_Dragon@cybergal.com ----------------------------------------------------- Get free email from CMP at http://www.cmpnetmail.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:28:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Gonsalves Subject: Re: Mathemagics In-Reply-To: <9905130915230K.07249@webb3.iname.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are Margaret Ball stories with Riva in it in the first two Chicks in Chainmail anthologies edited by Esther Friesner ("Chicks in Chainmail" and "Did you say Chicks?"). Enjoy, Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." -Matt Ruff in Sewer, Gas, and Electric Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Dear Ruth and all: > >There will be true knowledgable lovers of books who are available to >discuss the books you are interested in almost every store, from MG to >the megastores, IMO. With any luck, customers looking for such will find >them. This is true. I work in a megastore, and the vast majority of employees in our store have at least a bachelor's degree, and several have master's degrees--in various subjects, which helps us find an "expert" when we need one to answer difficult questions--this is the state of the economy: liberal arts grads seek just-over-minimum-wage jobs in order to be around books and get the employee discount, because nobody else is going to hire us simply because we "know a lot of stuff." We also, of course, have the denser variety of employee: someday I WILL find out who shelved _Robinson Crusoe_ under C (the person apparently thought that there's a novel titled _Daniel Defoe_) and I will kick that person in the shins. This may or may not be the place for this, but I get really really tired of being stereotyped as if I were a clerk at Wal-Mart, and could just as easily sell cheap clothing or cellphones. I constantly hear the megabookstores derided as places where the employees don't know anything about books, when in fact the opposite tends to be true. Next time you're in one of those stores, if indeed you shop in them at all, think about this: YOU might want to know whether Doris Lessing's SF books are still in print, and expect the clerk to be able to tell you that without looking in the computer database, but the next customer will want to know which manual on Excel 97 for Windows is the best, and the one after that needs to know if Majolica is really a better collector's choice than Depression Glass. Then someone will wonder if Wade Cook knows as much as he claims about Wall Street, and then--quick, off the top of your head--when does Nora Roberts' next book come out? Is it legal for uncertified people to homeschool in this state? Where's your nonfiction? (That's my favorite question of all---usually it means "where's the True Crime"). "Do you have all the Oprah books displayed together?" What's a good gift for someone who's retiring? Graduating? Getting chemotherapy? Is the Waite Tarot as good as the Matthews? Why don't you have the Anarchist's Cookbook out where we can play with it? Do you sell Jock Sturgis? No? Really? Do you sell any OTHER pornography? I hope you see my point. People buy books for a whole lot of different reasons, and ALL of those people get frustrated, and usually they are incredulous, if the clerk does not have the answer to their questions right on the tip of his or her tongue. > >Price certainly is an issue. However, if the independents are driven >out of business by Amazon and Barnes and Noble, those companies will no >longer offer their product at discounts (the degree of which varies and >has a lot to do with the perception of themselves they are really >selling). And IMO the selection of intellectual properties will diminish >as well without a variety of outlets. See my small publishing comment. This may or may not be true. The megastores compete with each other much more than they compete with independents, and in fact we constantly encourage our customers to shop the local independents (for what that's worth--most people are surprised to find out that we have mystery store, a new age store, a Christian store, a really good used book store, and are only too happy to take my advice that they shop there). Barnes and Noble, for instance, has always made the bulk of its money on magazines and bargain books, and this is not likely to change no matter how many independents there are. As for selection of intellectual properties, I don't know. I do know that my store carries far more titles in fiction that are obscure, and more editions of classic novels, simply because we have a lot more room to do so. We can afford to keep in stock every single work by Trollope, even though in the 18 months I have worked in that store, we have sold not a one, because we have the shelf space most independents don' t have. It's no skin off my store's nose, so to speak, if nobody buys Jane Austen or Cynthia Ozick--we still stock them. Can a tiny independent afford to do this? I doubt it---and this does bother me, since I have always wanted to open my own store and sell "real" books. The thing you might want to consider, in the end, is that people in the U.S. want these publications, in this order: magazines. Romance novels. Mystery novels. Self-help books. Everything else. Sorry if this is depressing--it is to me--but it's the way things are at the moment. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:57:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Actually, as a four-year veteran of the Borders mess, I know that the small-publishers and non-"good"-selling items from all publishers were the first to go en masse whenever "deadwood" was returned--a reasonable approach in business, but a real blow to the notion of diversity (the title-base--books any store might actually keep on the shelves--dropped by thousands of titles over those years, as the chain expanded, after its purchase by K-Mart, then the spinoff from the foundering Kresge, taking the Waldenbooks and related chains with it to create the corp as B&N particularly knows it today). Borders and B&N do compete most ferociously with each other (they will scout out sites within a thousand yards of the other's "superstore" to cut into the other's profits, apparently ready to make this a war of attrition), but of course will do what they can to move in on successful large indies as well (Tattered Cover in Denver and a few others are seen as much-prized targets, "maybe someday they can be vanquished" kind of nonsense). And, of course, one of the demands made by the Philadelphia workers trying to unionize their store as a IWW local was the return of a large part of the titlebase...in the company, the most ridiculous slander about the unionists was circulated, largely because Borders Inc. stock prices were threatened. But our staffs were always a mix of the odd/well-informed and the mostly clueless. And a few non-odd well-informed folks, usually short-timers. After all, the pay is atrocious. In the DC area, the self-help vastly outsold the mysteries. -----Original Message----- From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage [mailto:jocysher@SPRYNET.COM] This is true. I work in a megastore, and the vast majority of employees in our store have at least a bachelor's degree, and several have master's degrees--in various subjects, which helps us find an "expert" when we need one to answer difficult questions--this is the state of the economy: liberal arts grads seek just-over-minimum-wage jobs in order to be around books and get the employee discount, because nobody else is going to hire us simply because we "know a lot of stuff." We also, of course, have the denser variety of employee: someday I WILL find out who shelved _Robinson Crusoe_ under C (the person apparently thought that there's a novel titled _Daniel Defoe_) and I will kick that person in the shins. This may or may not be the place for this, but I get really really tired of being stereotyped as if I were a clerk at Wal-Mart, and could just as easily sell cheap clothing or cellphones. I constantly hear the megabookstores derided as places where the employees don't know anything about books, when in fact the opposite tends to be true. Next time you're in one of those stores, if indeed you shop in them at all, think about this: YOU might want to know whether Doris Lessing's SF books are still in print, and expect the clerk to be able to tell you that without looking in the computer database, but the next customer will want to know which manual on Excel 97 for Windows is the best, and the one after that needs to know if Majolica is really a better collector's choice than Depression Glass. Then someone will wonder if Wade Cook knows as much as he claims about Wall Street, and then--quick, off the top of your head--when does Nora Roberts' next book come out? Is it legal for uncertified people to homeschool in this state? Where's your nonfiction? (That's my favorite question of all---usually it means "where's the True Crime"). "Do you have all the Oprah books displayed together?" What's a good gift for someone who's retiring? Graduating? Getting chemotherapy? Is the Waite Tarot as good as the Matthews? Why don't you have the Anarchist's Cookbook out where we can play with it? Do you sell Jock Sturgis? No? Really? Do you sell any OTHER pornography? I hope you see my point. People buy books for a whole lot of different reasons, and ALL of those people get frustrated, and usually they are incredulous, if the clerk does not have the answer to their questions right on the tip of his or her tongue. This may or may not be true. The megastores compete with each other much more than they compete with independents, and in fact we constantly encourage our customers to shop the local independents (for what that's worth--most people are surprised to find out that we have mystery store, a new age store, a Christian store, a really good used book store, and are only too happy to take my advice that they shop there). Barnes and Noble, for instance, has always made the bulk of its money on magazines and bargain books, and this is not likely to change no matter how many independents there are. As for selection of intellectual properties, I don't know. I do know that my store carries far more titles in fiction that are obscure, and more editions of classic novels, simply because we have a lot more room to do so. We can afford to keep in stock every single work by Trollope, even though in the 18 months I have worked in that store, we have sold not a one, because we have the shelf space most independents don' t have. It's no skin off my store's nose, so to speak, if nobody buys Jane Austen or Cynthia Ozick--we still stock them. Can a tiny independent afford to do this? I doubt it---and this does bother me, since I have always wanted to open my own store and sell "real" books. The thing you might want to consider, in the end, is that people in the U.S. want these publications, in this order: magazines. Romance novels. Mystery novels. Self-help books. Everything else. Sorry if this is depressing--it is to me--but it's the way things are at the moment. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:47:39 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/13/99 8:52:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jocysher@SPRYNET.COM writes: << magazines. Romance novels. Mystery novels. Self-help books. Everything else. >> But...you know, if I go into a second hand store I always come out with books. If I go into Barnes and Noble, I come out bored and with no books. Maybe its not what people want, but what the store doesn't offer? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:07:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage wrote: > This may or may not be the place for this, but I get really really tired of > being stereotyped as if I were a clerk at Wal-Mart, and could just as easily > sell cheap clothing or cellphones. I constantly hear the megabookstores > derided as places where the employees don't know anything about books, when in > fact the opposite tends to be true. Next time you're in one of those stores, > if indeed you shop in them at all, think about this: YOU might want > to know whether Doris Lessing's SF books are still in print, and expect the > clerk to be able to tell you that without looking in the computer database,but > the next customer will want to know which manual on Excel 97 for Windows is > the best, and the one after that needs to know if Majolica is really a better > collector's choice than Depression Glass. Then someone will wonder if Wade > Cook knows as much as he claims about Wall Street, and then--quick, off the > top of your head--when does Nora Roberts' next book come out? Is it legal for > uncertified people to homeschool in this state? Where's your nonfiction? > (That's my favorite question of all---usually it means "where's the True > Crime"). "Do you have all the Oprah books displayed together?" What's a good > gift for someone who's retiring? Graduating? Getting chemotherapy? Is the > Waite Tarot as good as the Matthews? Why don't you have the Anarchist's > Cookbook out where we can play with it? Do you sell Jock Sturgis? No? > Really? Do you sell any OTHER pornography? I hope you see my point. People > buy books for a whole lot of different reasons, and ALL of those people get > frustrated, and usually they are incredulous, if the clerk does not have the > answer to their questions right on the tip of his or her tongue. At one time Crown Books made no bones about wanting employees who did not get too attached to books so that they would simply sell them as commodities. Perhaps because this ran so counter to the traditional stereotype of the ink-stained wretch or writer wannabe, it got a lot of press, along with the assertion that books had to sell within 7 days or be pulped, and the apparently true proposition that publishers spend most of their promotion money on books they determine will be best-sellers (the blockbuster mentality so prevalent in Hollywood). Probably because these ideas adhere to the fast-buck commercialization image of American retailing, booksellers have become mere salesclerks in the public eye, unfair though it may be. I find megastore personnel generally knowledgeable or ready to refer me to somebody who is or a likely source for information (like good librarians). Supercrown employees lag somewhat, partly as a hangover from the ill-fated bookstore on every streetcorner approach a few years ago, and partly no doubt to current bankruptcy problems. As far as the spread of ideas is concerned, I am a little more sanguine than some about the agglomeration model. The bigger behemoths get (in politics, publishing, breweries, auto making), the more likely it is that smaller groups will separate out. Only some will succeed, and at a rather small scale, but where is it written that everyone is guaranteed even survival, let alone prosperity? Publication enterprises and their arrangements with distributors and customers undergo major changes every generation. 19th c. authors had to pay for publishing their own books. The real "threat" now may be online publishing, but that is also a mixed bag, permitting even tinier "print runs" than ever before. Soon enough we will adjust to that, until the next threat comes along. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:41:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. : Samuelson Comments: cc: Mike Resnick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Oddly enough, I'm also a year's veteran of Crown Books, some time before my Borders sojourn, and they did indeed seem to prefer the non-bookish (I can tell you some stories), although some managers (such as mine) didn't mind if you actually could recommend things to customers (she even let her underlings select some of the fairly limited discretionary items she could stock along with the 40%-off bestsellers...I got in the complete line of Ballantine Cornell Woolrich reissues, for example...this was, however, before the fateful attempt to create Crown "superstores". The upper management of Crown was remarkable, to be purposefully vague--let us say that the best minds of the Haft organizations were probably concentrated elsewhere (I always had the impression that Crown was created to give Robert Haft, aka "Baby Smurf" to Herbert "Papa Smurf" Haft ((as they were known among some employees)), a chance to "prove" himself). At least in those days, paperbacks were not "pulped" in a week unless, like Carol Burnett's autobiog, they came in in the hundreds and sold in the handfuls (one week or so on the "bestseller" list, lovely corrupt institution...they, and any other titles declared out of print or otherwise recalled by publishers went through the usual incredibly wasteful process of stripping (the front cover off for return) and sending those covers back to publishers and distributors for credit--the industry standard in paperback publishing, btw, and not a practice restricted to Crown or the chains. Only a few small publishers and a few odd exceptions are exempt from stripping (Dover Books, Carroll and Graf, some others make chains and distribs buy their books outright; some "prestige" divisions of large publishers used to, may no longer accept whole copy returns). I think it might've been Mike Resnick on SF-Lit who brought up another danger of electronic publishing--that books never go out of print, thus trapping the book with the current publisher (if there's a clause in the contract that states that as long as it's in print, the pub has the rights to sell it), even if the current pub is doing nothing to promote it... -----Original Message----- From: Dave Samuelson [mailto:dnsmlsn@CSULB.EDU] At one time Crown Books made no bones about wanting employees who did not get too attached to books so that they would simply sell them as commodities. Perhaps because this ran so counter to the traditional stereotype of the ink-stained wretch or writer wannabe, it got a lot of press, along with the assertion that books had to sell within 7 days or be pulped, and the apparently true proposition that publishers spend most of their promotion money on books they determine will be best-sellers (the blockbuster mentality so prevalent in Hollywood). Probably because these ideas adhere to the fast-buck commercialization image of American retailing, booksellers have become mere salesclerks in the public eye, unfair though it may be. I find megastore personnel generally knowledgeable or ready to refer me to somebody who is or a likely source for information (like good librarians). Supercrown employees lag somewhat, partly as a hangover from the ill-fated bookstore on every streetcorner approach a few years ago, and partly no doubt to current bankruptcy problems. As far as the spread of ideas is concerned, I am a little more sanguine than some about the agglomeration model. The bigger behemoths get (in politics, publishing, breweries, auto making), the more likely it is that smaller groups will separate out. Only some will succeed, and at a rather small scale, but where is it written that everyone is guaranteed even survival, let alone prosperity? Publication enterprises and their arrangements with distributors and customers undergo major changes every generation. 19th c. authors had to pay for publishing their own books. The real "threat" now may be online publishing, but that is also a mixed bag, permitting even tinier "print runs" than ever before. Soon enough we will adjust to that, until the next threat comes along. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:17:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Actually, as a four-year veteran of the Borders mess, I know that the >small-publishers and non-"good"-selling items from all publishers were the >first to go en masse whenever "deadwood" was returned--a reasonable approach >in business, but a real blow to the notion of diversity I don't work at Borders, so I can't argue with you on these points. I can only reiterate that at my store, we have thousands of titles on the shelves right this minute that do not and probably never will sell more than a few copies nationwide. As for diversity, every employee in my store is encouraged to shortlist any books we wish, and we do this. The gay/lesbian section, for instance, has a whole lot more titles than it is "supposed" to because we shortlist the books we want to see in the store. "Returns" are a problem, not because they punish "diversity," but because they encourage stores to purchase many, many more copies of certain books than they can ever hope to sell, and when those titles don't sell, they get sent back to the publisher. But from what I've observed, this seems to affect the major "topical" books, such as Spin Cycle and all the other anti-Clinton books, more than small press titles (which just don't get ordered unless someone at the store wants them--yet another problem entirely). >Borders and B&N do compete most ferociously with each other (they will scout >out sites within a thousand yards of the other's "superstore" to cut into >the other's profits, apparently ready to make this a war of attrition), Have you seen such behavior personally or is this hearsay? I don't deny that it may be true, but it's very much the sort of thing people like to gossip about. In my town, we have three megastores, all of which are doing much better business than either corporation predicted beforehand, and we could probably make a fourth store profitable. There's plenty of business to go around, at least where I live and at the current moment. but >of course will do what they can to move in on successful large indies as >well (Tattered Cover in Denver and a few others are seen as much-prized >targets, "maybe someday they can be vanquished" kind of nonsense). Yes, of course the big companies would like to drive Tattered Cover out of business. I hope they don't--I love that store. But Tattered Cover has to bear some of the responsibility for driving some of the smaller independents in Denver out of business in its turn, doesn't it? I'm not sure there's a more high ground here, or at least not one whose "line in the sand" can be drawn between big companies and independents. They are ALL in business to turn a profit. The IRS will only let you write off a loser for a couple of years in a row. And, of >course, one of the demands made by the Philadelphia workers trying to >unionize their store as a IWW local was the return of a large part of the >titlebase...in the company, the most ridiculous slander about the unionists >was circulated, largely because Borders Inc. stock prices were threatened. >But our staffs were always a mix of the odd/well-informed and the mostly >clueless. And a few non-odd well-informed folks, usually short-timers. >After all, the pay is atrocious. > Sure, whatever. But why unionize if the company already treats you well? At my store, and as a part time employee, I have a 401k; recognition of my domestic partner; very good health, dental, and vision insurance; and the flexibility of schedule to allow me to finish grad school and continue teaching at local colleges. And I, personally, can expand the title base. Because of this, and despite the low pay (it IS unskilled retail labor, you realize), our employee turnover is very, very low. Probably 20% of the staff has been at that one store for more than 5 years, and I still feel like a newcomer with my 18 months. It is quite difficult to even get hired at this store--many more people want to work there than we have room or budget for. Despite the low pay. I used to volunteer at the local gay/lesbian book store, and yes, it has gone under. But I wonder if the reason is the existence and competition of the major bookstores, or if it's due to just bad management? Both factors were in place, and this town does still have a lot of independents which seem to be doing fine. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail /bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11 May 99, at 19:52, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Price certainly is an issue. However, if the independents > are driven out of business by Amazon and Barnes and Noble, > those companies will no longer offer their product at > discounts (the degree of which varies and > has a lot to do with the perception of themselves > they are really selling). And IMO the selection of > intellectual properties will diminish as well without > a variety of outlets. See my small publishing comment. That doesn't make any business sense because your scenario could only work under a monopoly or a cartel - where there was eventually only one company selling books or if all book-selling companies *illegally* fixed prices between themselves. The bookstore chains compete against each other far more viciously than they do against any independent store. In fact competition under an oligopoly (a few large companies competing in a restricted market) is always much fiercer than in a market with many small, independent companies. The vulnerability of the independent bookstore stems mostly from the low efficiency of its operation which require very high markups to sustain. The average markup seems to be 40-60% - a book costing US$15 wholesale is sold for up to US$25 retail! A megastore could buy the same book for US$12 and sell it for US15 - making a good profit at the same time. If, as you yourself say, the level of service in independent and mega stores is the same, why should the hard-pressed consumer support the independent? AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe you're right, but I come out of every store in this town with way too many books. What don't the big stores offer? -----Original Message----- From: Demetria M. Shew To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. >In a message dated 5/13/99 8:52:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >jocysher@SPRYNET.COM writes: > ><< magazines. Romance novels. Mystery > novels. Self-help books. Everything else. >> > > >But...you know, if I go into a second hand store I always come out with >books. If I go into Barnes and Noble, I come out bored and with no books. >Maybe its not what people want, but what the store doesn't offer? > >Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11 May 99, at 19:52, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > I thought "You've got mail" was not only anti-independent, > but also anti-feminist. I believe if HE had the small > independent and SHE worked for the megachain, she would > have seen the "error of her ways." Also I think she was > deliberately given a children's bookstore, rather than a > "real" one. Short tirade over. I don't think that's right. I've never handled anything as small as a single bookshop, but I've seen the same scenario with "family-owned" businesses - including one "short" chain of bookshops - many times over the years. Ephron's "children's bookstore" was clearly the generic small business which has lost touch with its customer base and thus lost its reason for existing. Far from being anti-feminist, Nora Ephron has given us a metaphor for a strong woman's evolution *from* being bound by the shackles of the past *to* finding the freedom to express her own creativiity. Kathleen, whose talents lay in writing and publishing, was running the bookshop, not for its own sake, but to keep alive the memory of her mother. This stunted her personal growth - just as trying to hold desperately onto the past stunts the personal growth of so many women today. Joe unknowingly freed her from the tyranny of the past. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:25:26 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Re: [*FSFFU*] THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail /bookstores FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >Dear Ruth and all: > >There will be true knowledgable lovers of books who are available to >discuss the books you are interested in almost every store, from MG to the >megastores, IMO. With any luck, customers looking for such will find them. > >Price certainly is an issue. However, if the independents are driven >out of business by Amazon and Barnes and Noble, those companies will no >longer offer their product at discounts (the degree of which varies and >has a lot to do with the perception of themselves they are really >selling). And IMO the selection of intellectual properties will diminish >as well without a variety of outlets. See my small publishing comment. My objection is simply that I dont' wish to pay more for something I can buy cheaper somewhere else. I've always tried to support independents, women's, minority-owned businesses but I think that I've been wasting my time and money, partly because they cost more but mainly because too many of them take us for granted and treat us like a captive market. A month ago I went to a minority owned travel business to book my European vacation. I leave 2 weeks Saturday, but up til Monday although I'd been there 5 times, I still hadn't got my tickets etc and I had to get visas myself. The price kept going up so much I was thinking of cancelling. Monday I told the minority business to take a hike and went to a branch of a big *patriarchal* business someone on this list recommended. I was treated with respect and got lots of good advise, suggestions and brochures. I went back Tuesday morning, told them what I wanted, picked up all the tickets this morning and it cost me 25% less than the minority business wanted. The patriarchs would even have got me visas. So where do you think I'm going to book my next trip? Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:17:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christen Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've just joined the list and excited about talking to others about feminist science fiction. I'm an undergrad (for another two weeks, at least), and have done some research on feminist utopias, and was working on a novella which has turned into a potential novel. I've only known about feminist science fiction for a year and a half or so, and haven't read a lot yet but now that school is almost out I hope to read a lot more. I'm so glad I found a place to find some good ideas. I'm just finishing up A World Between by Norman Spinrad and wondered if anyone has read it. I don't know if it would be described as feminist or not and was wondering what others thought. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:51:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores In-Reply-To: <19990513201610.6369.qmail@www0w.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:28 PM 5/13/99 , AJ wrote: >On 11 May 99, at 19:52, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > >> I thought "You've got mail" was not only anti-independent, >> but also anti-feminist. I believe if HE had the small >> independent and SHE worked for the megachain, she would >> have seen the "error of her ways." Also I think she was >> deliberately given a children's bookstore, rather than a >> "real" one. Short tirade over. > >I don't think that's right. I've never handled anything as small as a single >bookshop, but I've seen the same scenario with "family-owned" businesses - >including one "short" chain of bookshops - many times over the years. Ephron's >"children's bookstore" was clearly the generic small business which has lost >touch with its customer base and thus lost its reason for existing. > >Far from being anti-feminist, Nora Ephron has given us a metaphor for a strong >woman's evolution *from* being bound by the shackles of the past *to* finding >the freedom to express her own creativiity. Kathleen, whose talents lay in >writing and publishing, was running the bookshop, not for its own sake, but to >keep alive the memory of her mother. This stunted her personal growth - just >as trying to hold desperately onto the past stunts the personal growth of so >many women today. Joe unknowingly freed her from the tyranny of the past. > > > >AJ >Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) I disagree. I thought the movie was sexist, as well as uninspired. I think you have a point about the past weighing Kathleen (or anyone) down, and preventing personal growth, and it is a very inspired interpretation, however I saw no evidence anywhere in the movie to support that that is what the movie's creators were going for. I did think the fact that the store was a children's bookstore was part of the sexism -- she couldn't be running a sci-fi specialty store, or a gay-lesbian bookstore, or a used bookstore -- no, as an attractive single female character, it had to be a children's bookstore, showing that she is not a cold-hearted career woman (or some kind of weirdo) with no interest in kids. I also thought there was no attempt made to justify why an independent, smart woman would fall for an unpleasant, cold man whose company put her put of business and closed her link to her mother, shutting her off from a place rich with memories of her mother. She just forgives him because she's seen another side of him. "I was hoping it was you." It sounds like the excuses one might give oneself for fallingfor/stayign with an abusive partner (but you don't know what he's really like--he's really very sensitive underneath it all--nobody really understands him). The movie was an attempt to ride the success of Sleepless in Seattle, which I found much more enjoyable (although questionable from a feminist perspective). At best, it was a methaphor for how a women must "give up her mother" in exchange for gaining a husband. I'm rambling and I sense I'm not making my thoughts on this clear. Sigh. Well, I tried. :) Sophia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:50:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" But if the service was EXACTLY the same, would you have spent the extra money to support the minority travel agency? -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Ruth t [mailto:r_tarx@HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 1:25 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got > mail > > > Re: [*FSFFU*] THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got > mail /bookstores > FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > > >Dear Ruth and all: > > > >There will be true knowledgable lovers of books who are available to > >discuss the books you are interested in almost every store, > from MG to the > >megastores, IMO. With any luck, customers looking for such > will find them. > > > >Price certainly is an issue. However, if the independents are driven > >out of business by Amazon and Barnes and Noble, those > companies will no > >longer offer their product at discounts (the degree of which > varies and > >has a lot to do with the perception of themselves they are really > >selling). And IMO the selection of intellectual properties > will diminish > >as well without a variety of outlets. See my small > publishing comment. > > My objection is simply that I dont' wish to pay more for > something I can buy > cheaper somewhere else. I've always tried to support > independents, women's, > minority-owned businesses but I think that I've been wasting > my time and > money, partly because they cost more but mainly because too > many of them > take us for granted and treat us like a captive market. > > A month ago I went to a minority owned travel business to > book my European > vacation. I leave 2 weeks Saturday, but up til Monday > although I'd been > there 5 times, I still hadn't got my tickets etc and I had to > get visas > myself. The price kept going up so much I was thinking of > cancelling. Monday > I told the minority business to take a hike and went to a > branch of a big > *patriarchal* business someone on this list recommended. I > was treated with > respect and got lots of good advise, suggestions and > brochures. I went back > Tuesday morning, told them what I wanted, picked up all the > tickets this > morning and it cost me 25% less than the minority business wanted. The > patriarchs would even have got me visas. So where do you > think I'm going to > book my next trip? > > > Ruth > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:00:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Spinrad: Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Spinrad, perhaps unfairly (I haven't yet read A WORLD BETWEEN or a lot of his pertinent work), is often mentioned as one of the most antifeminist of sf writers, along with William Tenn and R. Bretnor (whom I can attest are). -----Original Message----- From: Christen Smith [mailto:womenofkali@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:17 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: I've just joined the list and excited about talking to others about feminist science fiction. I'm an undergrad (for another two weeks, at least), and have done some research on feminist utopias, and was working on a novella which has turned into a potential novel. I've only known about feminist science fiction for a year and a half or so, and haven't read a lot yet but now that school is almost out I hope to read a lot more. I'm so glad I found a place to find some good ideas. I'm just finishing up A World Between by Norman Spinrad and wondered if anyone has read it. I don't know if it would be described as feminist or not and was wondering what others thought. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:59:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: bookstores; a bit off-topic In-Reply-To: <19990513201610.6369.qmail@www0w.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII At the risk of beating the horse even deader: I am a grad student in Davis, CA, and I think the debate that is raging in this town is an excellent "model" for what is going on throughout the US with the introduction of large chains (including bookstores) into a place exclusively filled with small independent stores selling everything from books, clothes and electronics to cd's and wicca supplies. Borders moved in. The town's two small independent bookstores are going out of business, including the one that has many of the feminist sf books that we discuss here on their "recommended" list! New Age shop Aquarius (selling books, jewelry, and some of the best smelling candles I've ever come across) being forced out to make way for McDonalds when 10-year lease is up. Ross stores bending over backwards to get a lease. Samira's (cute little botique offering hand-embroidered and natural fabrique silk, velvet, and cotton cothing in the $20-$100 range) being forced out. Goodbye pleasant downtown. Hello Walmart. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. There is a town group called "Save Davis" that has been admirably keeping the big developers at bay. But I suspect that it is only a matter of time... Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:02:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: bookstores; a bit off-topic In-Reply-To: <19990513201610.6369.qmail@www0w.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Actually, in the email I just posted, I said that the two bookstores were going out of business. I don't know if that's true; but business has definitely dropped off, according to the people I have talked to who work there. And the owner of Aquarius blames Borders for her sudden 50% drop in book sales; she is moving back to New York. And Samira's is being forced out, too. Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:46:07 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail /bookstores Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >Dear Ruth and all: > >There will be true knowledgable lovers of books who are available to >discuss the books you are interested in almost every store, from MG to the >megastores, IMO. With any luck, customers looking for such will find them. > >Price certainly is an issue. However, if the independents are driven >out of business by Amazon and Barnes and Noble, those companies will no >longer offer their product at discounts (the degree of which varies and >has a lot to do with the perception of themselves they are really >selling). And IMO the selection of intellectual properties will diminish >as well without a variety of outlets. See my small publishing comment. My objection is simply that I dont' wish to pay more for something I can buy cheaper somewhere else. I've always tried to support independents, women's, minority-owned businesses but I think that I've been wasting my time and money, partly because they cost more but mainly because too many of them take us for granted and treat us like a captive market. A month ago I went to a minority owned travel business to book my European vacation. I leave 2 weeks Saturday, but up til Monday although I'd been there 5 times, I still hadn't got my tickets etc and I had to get visas myself. The price kept going up so much I was thinking of cancelling. Monday I told the minority business to take a hike and went to a branch of a big *patriarchal* business someone on this list recommended. I was treated with respect and got lots of good advise, suggestions and brochures. I went back Tuesday morning, told them what I wanted, picked up all the tickets this morning and it cost me 25% less than the minority business wanted. The patriarchs would even have got me visas. So where do you think I'm going to book my next trip? Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:50:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail /bookstores: Hartley Stanton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, Anthea, as you know, "illegal" price fixing can be done in informal and apparently legal ways, and even when it's blatantly illegal, it takes an agency or plaintiff to act to stop that collusion. The Indy Booksellers Assoc has recently taken action on this issue, actually, though I don't know the particulars of their case against the several publishers, chains, and distributors (I believe it had to do with the big customers getting under-the-table,as opposed to open, bigger discounts and faster delivery). While B&N and Borders target each other more than they do indies, this didn't used to be the case, and they are still quite happy to encroach upon the successful general-interest indies, as well; they are seen as the same sort of "finders of markets for Our stores" as are the smaller megastore chains (Tower, Crown, Books-A-Million, Olssen's, etc.). I have been known to defend Crown, et alles, to some small extent, because they rarely seriously challenge the knowledgeable specialized stores, nor the genuinely comprehensive (perhaps only if well-established) indies like Tattered Cover. You aren't as likely, for the reasons Sheryl mentioned and for others, to find as knowledgeable a staff on the entire stock at a Borders as you will at a Mysterious Galaxy, Dangerous Visions (LA), Dark Carnival (SF Bay), or the lamented Moonstone Bookcellars (DC), so seeking help with a rare or hard-to-find item at the specialist store might well be more fruitful. It has been said of Shakespeare and Co in NYC, a big indy supposedly crushed by the chains, that its staff was remarkably unhelpful...and even with the best of intentions, the chain stores can only carry so much that is "fringy"--a tough fact for the indies is that the "fringy" stuff by definition doesn't sell as well individually as the more "mainline" material. Btw, the margins in bookselling are smaller than in many other sorts of retail...part of the reason the "returns" policy exists still in publishing, allowing most unsold hardcovers and paperbacks' covers to be returned. Standard wholesale discounts (until very recently?) were 40%. -----Original Message----- From: Anthea Hartley Stanton [mailto:ajhs@USA.NET] That doesn't make any business sense because your scenario could only work under a monopoly or a cartel - where there was eventually only one company selling books or if all book-selling companies *illegally* fixed prices between themselves. The bookstore chains compete against each other far more viciously than they do against any independent store. In fact competition under an oligopoly (a few large companies competing in a restricted market) is always much fiercer than in a market with many small, independent companies. The vulnerability of the independent bookstore stems mostly from the low efficiency of its operation which require very high markups to sustain. The average markup seems to be 40-60% - a book costing US$15 wholesale is sold for up to US$25 retail! A megastore could buy the same book for US$12 and sell it for US15 - making a good profit at the same time. If, as you yourself say, the level of service in independent and mega stores is the same, why should the hard-pressed consumer support the independent? AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant: Denton-LeSage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, Sheryl, I'm glad you're a contented employee at B&N. However, Border and B&N are the same sort of beast, only (perhaps until recently) Borders usually had slightly more books, B&N had nicer benches and decoration. Of course all I've described was firsthand observation. By the way, where'd you get the "moral high ground" business? They offer the relatively cheap benefits they do so they can get people like yourself to stay, but I'm amused (please forgive me) that you think the corp really values its employees, unless attitudes have changed enormously. Next time you chat with Leonard Liggio, ask him when he's next likely to push for more equitable payment for that "untrained" yet knowledgeable labor, vs. the payment of the upper level management. People unionize so as to have power over their lives; it is a pity how often that has little or no useful effect. My point wasn't that the Killer Bs don't carry a wide range of books--just that the range (at least at Borders, which started wider) had been shrinking as the chain got larger. -----Original Message----- From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage >Actually, as a four-year veteran of the Borders mess, I know that the >small-publishers and non-"good"-selling items from all publishers were the >first to go en masse whenever "deadwood" was returned--a reasonable approach >in business, but a real blow to the notion of diversity I don't work at Borders, so I can't argue with you on these points. I can only reiterate that at my store, we have thousands of titles on the shelves right this minute that do not and probably never will sell more than a few copies nationwide. As for diversity, every employee in my store is encouraged to shortlist any books we wish, and we do this. The gay/lesbian section, for instance, has a whole lot more titles than it is "supposed" to because we shortlist the books we want to see in the store. "Returns" are a problem, not because they punish "diversity," but because they encourage stores to purchase many, many more copies of certain books than they can ever hope to sell, and when those titles don't sell, they get sent back to the publisher. But from what I've observed, this seems to affect the major "topical" books, such as Spin Cycle and all the other anti-Clinton books, more than small press titles (which just don't get ordered unless someone at the store wants them--yet another problem entirely). >Borders and B&N do compete most ferociously with each other (they will scout >out sites within a thousand yards of the other's "superstore" to cut into >the other's profits, apparently ready to make this a war of attrition), Have you seen such behavior personally or is this hearsay? I don't deny that it may be true, but it's very much the sort of thing people like to gossip about. In my town, we have three megastores, all of which are doing much better business than either corporation predicted beforehand, and we could probably make a fourth store profitable. There's plenty of business to go around, at least where I live and at the current moment. but >of course will do what they can to move in on successful large indies as >well (Tattered Cover in Denver and a few others are seen as much-prized >targets, "maybe someday they can be vanquished" kind of nonsense). Yes, of course the big companies would like to drive Tattered Cover out of business. I hope they don't--I love that store. But Tattered Cover has to bear some of the responsibility for driving some of the smaller independents in Denver out of business in its turn, doesn't it? I'm not sure there's a more high ground here, or at least not one whose "line in the sand" can be drawn between big companies and independents. They are ALL in business to turn a profit. The IRS will only let you write off a loser for a couple of years in a row. And, of >course, one of the demands made by the Philadelphia workers trying to >unionize their store as a IWW local was the return of a large part of the >titlebase...in the company, the most ridiculous slander about the unionists >was circulated, largely because Borders Inc. stock prices were threatened. >But our staffs were always a mix of the odd/well-informed and the mostly >clueless. And a few non-odd well-informed folks, usually short-timers. >After all, the pay is atrocious. > Sure, whatever. But why unionize if the company already treats you well? At my store, and as a part time employee, I have a 401k; recognition of my domestic partner; very good health, dental, and vision insurance; and the flexibility of schedule to allow me to finish grad school and continue teaching at local colleges. And I, personally, can expand the title base. Because of this, and despite the low pay (it IS unskilled retail labor, you realize), our employee turnover is very, very low. Probably 20% of the staff has been at that one store for more than 5 years, and I still feel like a newcomer with my 18 months. It is quite difficult to even get hired at this store--many more people want to work there than we have room or budget for. Despite the low pay. I used to volunteer at the local gay/lesbian book store, and yes, it has gone under. But I wonder if the reason is the existence and competition of the major bookstores, or if it's due to just bad management? Both factors were in place, and this town does still have a lot of independents which seem to be doing fine. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:16:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christen Smith Subject: Re: Spinrad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I actually just had a conversation with the professor who lent me the book, and he also said from his other books he would be the last person to be described as feminist. And there are certainly things in A World Between which are not feminist. But a lot of issues that are brought up in the book are important.. he seems to endorse a humanistic approach, and he tries to reveal the more subtle types of sexism. Unfortunately, the male chauvanists come off looking better than the femocrats (as they're called in the novel), and I don't really buy what he's saying. But it would make for an interesting discussion. Christen --- Todd Mason wrote: > Spinrad, perhaps unfairly (I haven't yet read A > WORLD BETWEEN or a lot of > his pertinent work), is often mentioned as one of > the most antifeminist of > sf writers, along with William Tenn and R. Bretnor > (whom I can attest are). > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christen Smith [mailto:womenofkali@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:17 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: > > > I've just joined the list and excited about talking > to others about > feminist science fiction. I'm an undergrad (for > another two weeks, at > least), and have done some research on feminist > utopias, and was > working on a novella which has turned into a > potential novel. > I've only known about feminist science fiction for a > year and a half or > so, and haven't read a lot yet but now that school > is almost out I hope > to read a lot more. I'm so glad I found a place to > find some good > ideas. > I'm just finishing up A World Between by Norman > Spinrad and wondered if > anyone has read it. I don't know if it would be > described as feminist > or not and was wondering what others thought. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at > http://messenger.yahoo.com > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 13 May 99, at 15:17, Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSag wrote: > Have you seen such behavior personally or is this hearsay? I don't deny > that it may be true, but it's very much the sort of thing people like to > gossip about. In my town, we have three megastores, all of which are > doing much better business than either corporation predicted beforehand, > and we could probably make a fourth store profitable. There's plenty of > business to go around, at least where I live and at the current moment. I've heard that rumour too but I've only known it to happen in a few very specialised cases (and none of them bookshops). I wonder how one would justify that commercially if we consider that books are (in the broader sense) low-cost, impulse-purchase items. One would have thought that the high capital and stock expenditures required for megastores and lost-opportunity costs alone would make "dog-in-the-manger" competition suicidal. I think that a lot of the rumour stems from the fact most large organisations (except those that hire my company ) use similar methods to identify "gaps" in the market and have the same *long* planning cycle to open new stores. So it's not hardly surprising when two companies identify the same gap in the market at roughly the same time and open "opposing" stores near each other. > I used to volunteer at the local gay/lesbian book store, and yes, it has > gone under. But I wonder if the reason is the existence and competition > of the major bookstores, or if it's due to just bad management? Both > factors were in place, and this town does still have a lot of independents > which seem to be doing fine. I get the feeling that some people consider it treason to feminism to suggest that bad management is the cause of feminist, minority or other "-ist" bookstores failing. But of course the vast majority of businesses which fail do so because of bad management. Too many people with a cause think that all they have to do is start up an enterprise which should appeal to supporters of that cause and all will be well. They start up undercapitalised and in bad locations (often where there've been several failures of the same type of business in the past), they don't to do proper market research before opening and they certainly can't be bothered with marketing the business once it's opened, and they rely on promises of support which never arrives. And when the inevitable happens and funds run out, they blame the nearest chainstore and holler for donations to stay open! AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:14:37 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Sandy Candioglos wrote: >But if the service was EXACTLY the same, would you have spent the >extra money to support the minority travel agency? > > -Sandy A year ago, yes, a month ago, perhaps, but now - never! If I'd paid what the minority agency asked, I'd have to cut back on the trip. I mightn't have been able to go at all the way prices were going up. The more I think about it, the more I realise I've been stupid all these years for paying out more for inferior services. From now on, I'm going to shop around and get the best price no matter who I get it from. If a minority etc store and a patriarchal store offer the same price and service, I'll always buy from the minority etc but I'll never pay a higher price, get worse service or buy something I don't want just to support someone whos probably a lot better off than I am. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:33:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant: Hartley Stanton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The two chains have made no secret in the business press of gunning for each other, and the pattern of emerging new stores within (either actual or equivalent to) a city block of so of one another is hard to ignore. The word was passed down through Borders management (of which I was a part at one time) to be on the lookout for B&N "spies" (and we did see B&N employees taking notes on displays and other aspects), as well as advisories about fighting with B&N over sites and resentment of their moving in on ours, and the petty coup of moving in on one of theirs. So, yes, more than rumors. Anthea, they were basically in a urination contest as well as both hoping to become the dominant force. These are chains that attempted to nearly double in (store-count)size every year, in the early/mid-90s. We're talking unreasonable exuberance here, and planning at least in part on the fly. -----Original Message----- From: Anthea Hartley Stanton [mailto:ajhs@USA.NET] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 6:10 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. On 13 May 99, at 15:17, Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSag wrote: > Have you seen such behavior personally or is this hearsay? I've heard that rumour too but I've only known it to happen in a few very specialised cases (and none of them bookshops). I wonder how one would justify that commercially if we consider that books are (in the broader sense) low-cost, impulse-purchase items. One would have thought that the high capital and stock expenditures required for megastores and lost-opportunity costs alone would make "dog-in-the-manger" competition suicidal. I think that a lot of the rumour stems from the fact most large organisations (except those that hire my company ) use similar methods to identify "gaps" in the market and have the same *long* planning cycle to open new stores. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:17:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Gray Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. In-Reply-To: <19990513220941.986.qmail@nwcst067.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 13 May 1999, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > Too many people with a cause think that all they have to do is start up an > enterprise which should appeal to supporters of that cause and all will be > well. They start up undercapitalised and in bad locations (often where > there've been several failures of the same type of business in the past), they > don't to do proper market research before opening and they certainly can't be > bothered with marketing the business once it's opened, and they rely on > promises of support which never arrives. And when the inevitable happens and > funds run out, they blame the nearest chainstore and holler for donations to > stay open! > > > The key difference between the chain stores, though, and independent stores is that they often OPERATE AT A LOSS until they have forced all the non-chain stores out of the area, and then they have a monopoly. Independents can't do this. Chain stores have the capital to do the marketing research and open up in higher rent places, initially. And can also advertise the bejesus out of their "new location", often right across the street from an independent store that cannot afford advertising. I have seen this happen so many times: Starbucks opens store in fancy new building across the street from small cafe in older building where there has been an established need for a coffee house(established by the small coffee house; no need even for Starbucks to do market research!). Starbucks advertises everywhere it's "new location". Starbucks operates at a loss, splitting business with small coffee house until said house goes under. Starbucks has monopoly. You drink Starbucks coffee, and are only exposed to what that huge corporation thinks you should be. To bring this back to bookstores, here in Davis Borders opened literally a couple of blocks away from two small independent book stores, and a few specialty stores selling books, and is now drawing half their business. One guess who will soon be the only book seller in Davis. Bonnie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:52:01 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant: ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/13/99 2:17:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM writes: << My point wasn't that the Killer Bs don't carry a wide range of books--just that the range (at least at Borders, which started wider) had been shrinking as the chain got larger. >> Do you folks actually find books worth buying at B&N et al. I mean, really? I go through abebooks, or drive miles (and miles) to our local small bookstores. The stuff at these big chains is just...as someone so aptly states...rectangular objects R us. I have a great duffy old copy of "The Plant Kingdom" at my elbow that was published in 1935 and has wonderful line drawings. Nothing like that at the warehouse book stores. I still think they would sell lots more books if they sold real books instead of pictures and stuff in dust jackets. Sometimes marketing wins out over value and I feel sorry for people who don't have access to the small stores. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:57:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here in San Bernardino, CA there are a couple stores filling a niche in a couple of ways that has them thriving in a chain-store town, the first one is an African-American Literature store downtown called Phenix that is next door to the mall containing a Waldenbooks. The little store started across the street from the mall, and made its name not only on having a wide variety of African-American Literature, but the owners of the shop went out of their way to become a part of the downtown community, by advertising lectures and author signings from outside the immediate area as well as handling ticket sales for when a really really megastar author came to town (which believe me doesnt happen THAT much unless said author is visiting one of the local colleges or high schools round here). For example, Toni Morrison was going to appear at my campus on a Sunday mid-morning, and the owners of this little bookshop put up flyers and sold tickets to the luncheon that would follow the talk. Just this month they moved a few doors down to a bigger lease space as they outgrew their location which was this tiny hole in the wall kind of retail space (you would have to wait outside till someone else got done shopping if it got too busy with people browsing the space was really tiny). The other example of a small independent is Much Ado About Books in the neighboring town of Redlands, CA. It is a small family run retail book shop that offers classes in journaling, The Artist's Way, poetry writing, fiction writing, and has the most different selction of literature I have ever come across. When I need to order a book, instead of heading to Walden's which is about 20 min from here, I would take the bus out to Redlands and put my order in with Much Ado, they would be able to fill my order or tell me if I needed to seek a secondary market right away, instead of my having to wait 6 weeks to hear that the book I ordered is no longer available. They have magazines I want to buy, books that compell me to spend time browsing the many shelves for the right read for my mood, and their service is terrific. I used to order my books from B. Dalton years back but it seemed the books I needed to order that would never show to their search system would be in my hand in a couple weeks with this small store. I hear though things may change as the distribution to independent bookshops got bought up by one of the megabookstore companies. Sometimes it is the atmosphere that gets me into a shop regardless what they sell. A couple doors down from the new Phenix store is an African shop where you can get little wood carvings or idols or jewelry for gifts, and they burn the best incense I have ever smelled. It gives the downtown area such an ecclectic atmosphere. Jo Ann At 04:17 PM 5/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 13 May 1999, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > > >> Too many people with a cause think that all they have to do is start up an >> enterprise which should appeal to supporters of that cause and all will be >> well. They start up undercapitalised and in bad locations (often where >> there've been several failures of the same type of business in the past), they >> don't to do proper market research before opening and they certainly can't be >> bothered with marketing the business once it's opened, and they rely on >> promises of support which never arrives. And when the inevitable happens and >> funds run out, they blame the nearest chainstore and holler for donations to >> stay open! >> >> >> > >The key difference between the chain stores, though, and independent >stores is that they often OPERATE AT A LOSS until they have forced all >the non-chain stores out of the area, and then they have a monopoly. >Independents can't do this. Chain stores have the capital to do >the marketing research and open up in higher rent places, initially. >And can also advertise the bejesus out of their "new location", often >right across the street from an independent store that cannot >afford advertising. I have seen this happen so many times: Starbucks opens >store in fancy new building across the street from small cafe in >older building where there has been an established need for a coffee >house(established by the small coffee house; no need even for >Starbucks to do market research!). Starbucks advertises everywhere it's "new location". Starbucks >operates at a loss, splitting business with small coffee house until >said house goes under. Starbucks has monopoly. You drink Starbucks >coffee, and are only exposed to what that huge corporation thinks you >should be. > >To bring this back to bookstores, here in Davis Borders opened literally a >couple of blocks away from two small independent book stores, and >a few specialty stores selling books, and is now drawing half their >business. One guess who will soon be the only book seller in Davis. > >Bonnie > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant: ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I find some good things in the megas, and some I have to go to the little (dusty or not) shops. After all, some good books are being published by majors and big-enough minors to appear at the megas, and they often are (unfortunately, because of the lack otherwise) the best or among the best newsstands in even as large a metro center as Philly, when one seeks the fiction magazines (F&SF, ASIMOV'S, ELLERY QUEEN, ONTARIO REVIEW, REALMS OF FANTASY, WEIRD TALES, etc.). The chains will carry some big-pretty books like your PLANT KINGDOM, but usually keep them behind the counter for fear of whole-copy or razored-page theft (much like the libraries face). -----Original Message----- From: Demetria M. Shew [mailto:DMadrone@AOL.COM] Do you folks actually find books worth buying at B&N et al. I mean, really? I go through abebooks, or drive miles (and miles) to our local small bookstores. The stuff at these big chains is just...as someone so aptly states...rectangular objects R us. I have a great duffy old copy of "The Plant Kingdom" at my elbow that was published in 1935 and has wonderful line drawings. Nothing like that at the warehouse book stores. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:50:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Science Fiction Research Association Conference 1999, Mobile, AL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thought this might interest some members of the list serve. Hope to see those of you who are already members of the SFRA at the conference. The time for the Science Fiction Research Association Annual Conference is drawing near, so if you haven't registered and are fixing to, please send in your registration fee ($95.00, at the door $105.00) and contact the Radisson Hotel for a reservation. The conference runs from Wednesday June 2 to Sunday June 6. Call 1 800 333-3333 for a hotel reservation, ask for the $79.00 flat rate. If you're flying into Mobile, call Mobile Bay Transportation at least 24 hours before arrival. They will deliver you to the hotel. Their number is: 1 800 272-6234 Author Guest of Honor: Gregory Benford Special Guest Authors: Kathleen Goonan, Jack McDevitt, Andy Duncan Other Guest Authors: Barbara (B.A.) Chepaitis, F. Brett Cox, Del Stone, Sydney Sower, Joan Slonczewski, David Hartwell, Fred Pohl, and Brian Stableford Special Guest Speaker: I.F. Clarke Send check to: Tom Brennan Department of English University of South Alabama Mobile, Alabama 36688 The entire program for the conference will be posted on the SFRA website either today or tommorrow. www.sfra.org Thank you, Mike Levy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:44:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:28 PM 13/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >Far from being anti-feminist, Nora Ephron has given us a metaphor for a strong >woman's evolution *from* being bound by the shackles of the past *to* finding >the freedom to express her own creativiity. Kathleen, whose talents lay in >writing and publishing, was running the bookshop, not for its own sake, but to >keep alive the memory of her mother. This stunted her personal growth - just >as trying to hold desperately onto the past stunts the personal growth of so >many women today. Joe unknowingly freed her from the tyranny of the past. Jeez, and here I was thinking it was just another stupid, formulaic romantic comedy... Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:34:40 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has been a very interesting thread for me, and the variety of your thoughts and comments has caused me to again assess my long-held dislike of and frustration over the rise of the book megastores. I have such loyalty to certain independents -- Sisterhood (Westwood, CA), Dangerous Visions (Sherman Oaks), and Vroman's (Pasadena) -- that with every new megastore opening, I envision with a shudder the possible closing of one of these beloved stores, because I know that this is what is happening all around the world. I don't want to be unduly sentimental, but the fact is, I have an almost visceral reaction toward my favorite stores. And I will be deeply disappointed if my young nephews have to grow up without these independents, without these choices. Already, they will have but one software company and one coffeehouse. And, eventually, I fear they will have one prospective employer ('Why? Because we like you!'). I guess I'd have to say I consider this a moral issue. I really believe that most of us don't have what it takes to be loyal or to be inconvenienced. Because supporting an independent is inconvenient. It's driving out of your way to get your books. It's spending the extra money on the books, instead of on the value meal. It's waiting for the order to come in. It's doing a little more homework than scanning the well-stocked megashelves for available titles when you've run out of ideas. It's finding something else to do after dinner with friends, other than using a trip to the megastore as group entertainment. I feel the reasons we use the megastores are transcient, superficial considerations. Being loyal to an independent is a sign of character. It's no different than embracing enduring values. This is how I see it, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that perspective. It's a better perspective for me than the cynical, relax-and-accept-it perspective a lot of my friends have. To my friends, I'm an anachronism, I'm the butt of casual jokes, I'm considered naive to the nature of big business, and a member of a losing team. Well, I've been marginalized most of my life. I guess I'm comfortable with it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:11:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 14 May 99, at 1:44, Santanico wrote: > Jeez, and here I was thinking it was just another stupid, formulaic > romantic comedy... Just shows how easy it is for any of us to be wrong. I mean, *I* thought that you were just another man disguised as a troll. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:38:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:11 AM 14/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >On 14 May 99, at 1:44, Santanico wrote: > >> Jeez, and here I was thinking it was just another stupid, formulaic >> romantic comedy... > >Just shows how easy it is for any of us to be wrong. I mean, *I* thought that >you were just another man disguised as a troll. I should perhaps point out here that my post was intended as a joke. You know, where you say something offhand intended to be humorous, not intended to be taken seriously or as a personal slight? I mean, come on, am I the only one who finds it funny that there's a bunch of people here seriously discussing the deep moral and ethical subtexts behind "You've Got Mail"? I mean, for God's sakes, it's "You've Got Mail"! Oh, and very nice how you assume that, because I disagree with certain people and ideas, I'm one of those evil male-type creatures. Reverse chauvinism ahoy! Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. : Miller Comments: To: "camiller@gte.net" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, Maryelizabeth, has your store suffered in the wake of megastore incursion, or have you had such near enough to register? The very fact that the stores' management (on the chain- even if not on the store-level) really Doesn't Care about any specialty probably will mean that the specialty stores (of all kinds) will probably survive. -----Original Message----- From: Cathie Miller [mailto:camiller@gte.net] This has been a very interesting thread for me, and the variety of your thoughts and comments has caused me to again assess my long-held dislike of and frustration over the rise of the book megastores. I have such loyalty to certain independents -- Sisterhood (Westwood, CA), Dangerous Visions (Sherman Oaks), and Vroman's (Pasadena) -- that with every new megastore opening, I envision with a shudder the possible closing of one of these beloved stores, because I know that this is what is happening all around the world. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:51:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey, Satanico, if dozens if not hundreds of academics can pretend to find profound meaning in George Lucas et alles' audiovisual rehash (not even particularly well-thought-out rehash) of Leigh Brackett and Jack Vance lead novellas from PLANET STORIES and THRILLING WONDER STORIES ca. 1949 (as well as of THE HIDDEN FORTRESS, but that has cache, so the acks know about that one), why not a in an apparently sloppy rehash of THE SHOP AROUND THE CORNER? (I have argued over the radio with a Temple U prof who wished to inform us all that SW was not anything like sf, 'cause it's mythic...this clown's supposed "twenty years studying sf" had apparently never included anything by Poul Anderson, Samuel Delaney, Marion Zimmer Bradley, A. A. Attanasio, Roger Zelazny or anyone else who explicitly uses mythic imagery and resonance in sfnal work...but she was invincible in ignorance.) -----Original Message----- From: Santanico [mailto:trekkie@NLC.NET.AU] I mean, come on, am I the only one who finds it funny that there's a bunch of people here seriously discussing the deep moral and ethical subtexts behind "You've Got Mail"? I mean, for God's sakes, it's "You've Got Mail"! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:06:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:51 AM 14/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hey, Satanico, if dozens if not hundreds of academics can pretend to find >profound meaning in George Lucas et alles' audiovisual rehash (not even >particularly well-thought-out rehash) of Leigh Brackett and Jack Vance lead >novellas from PLANET STORIES and THRILLING WONDER STORIES ca. 1949 (as well >as of THE HIDDEN FORTRESS, but that has cache, so the acks know about that >one), why not a in an apparently sloppy rehash of THE SHOP AROUND THE >CORNER? Yeah...but I always thought _those_ academics needed to go and have a good lie down, too. Trying to find meaning where there is none is basically futile. Hell, I could probably find deep meaning in "Weekend At Bernie's" if I looked hard enough, but does that mean there _is_ any? Sometimes a mindless piece of celluloid is just a mindless piece of celluloid... (I have argued over the radio with a Temple U prof who wished to >inform us all that SW was not anything like sf, 'cause it's mythic...this >clown's supposed "twenty years studying sf" had apparently never included >anything by Poul Anderson, Samuel Delaney, Marion Zimmer Bradley, A. A. >Attanasio, Roger Zelazny or anyone else who explicitly uses mythic imagery >and resonance in sfnal work...but she was invincible in ignorance.) I wouldn't call the SW films SF in the strictest sense of the word, certainly (science fiction, in the sense that all this _could_ possibly happen some time in the future); it is, however, definitely Space Opera/Planetary Romance, but since the argument over whether those subgenres are 'real' SF has been raging for decades, that just opens a whole other can of worms. Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: SW and YGM: Satanico MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ---new comment From: Santanico [mailto:trekkie@NLC.NET.AU] Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] you've got mail / bookstores why not a in an apparently sloppy rehash of THE SHOP AROUND THE >CORNER? ---why not also in...sloppy typing rlues! Yeah...but I always thought _those_ academics needed to go and have a good lie down, too. Trying to find meaning where there is none is basically futile. Hell, I could probably find deep meaning in "Weekend At Bernie's" if I looked hard enough, but does that mean there _is_ any? Sometimes a mindless piece of celluloid is just a mindless piece of celluloid... ---Oh, there're various ways to "read" even the most trivial work, and the popularity of SW makes it a tempting target, but the argument I too often see is that Lucas is a transcendant genius to perceive the mything underpinning of space opera, something those ignorant skiffy hacks we can't be bothered to read would never be able to plumb. I wouldn't call the SW films SF in the strictest sense of the word, certainly (science fiction, in the sense that all this _could_ possibly happen some time in the future); it is, however, definitely Space Opera/Planetary Romance, but since the argument over whether those subgenres are 'real' SF has been raging for decades, that just opens a whole other can of worms. Sant. ---Oh, I don't think anything as mystical as SW is science fiction, but solidly in the science fantasy camp. When I write sf, I usually mean science fiction, but when I write SF, I mean speculative fiction, or the whole of fantastic literature, much as Judith Merrill meant the term. I don't have any problem with space opera's legitimacy--Brackett, Anderson, Vance, and others who favor the form are some of the best writers in SF. In an unguarded moment, Lucas acknowledged his debt to Harry Harrison, apparently, inspiring Harrison to ask, OK, why don't you hire me to help write some of this? At least Lucas had the good sense to tap Brackett for the second film, even if her work was rewritten after her death. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:38:45 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: service levels / you've got mail (long) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthea: I did NOT say that the level of service was the same at chain stores and independents. I said in my experience almost every store will have a book lover on the staff who is willing to work for bookstore wages, chain or independent. But I believe there is a difference between approaches on a corporate level between a store which hires its staff for their book knowledge and a store hiring its staff from KFC because they have experience in moving units of anything. This is why someone in Crown the other night was being offered Anne Rice's "Mummy" as a novelization of the current movie by the clerk. And why the woman who walked into the MG booth at the LA Times Book Festival and asked, "who is the redheaded Canadian mystery author?" was offered Sparkle Hayter and Alison Gordon as possible answers. Certainly some of the difference is because of focus. As Sheryl pointed out, we get far fewer general knowledge questions. And yes, definitely, one can't just love books and run a business on book lore and no business sense. But there are well established businesses with excellent plans in place who have lost business to places like Amazon, just because Amazon's goal was to establish itself as an internet source, not to make a profit, and they are still hemmoraging money with every sale. But dang, if they aren't sexy on Wall Street. Sheryl, given the number of magazine returns I did personally when working for a chain, I'm amazed to hear you cite them as the top money maker. But I believe it, having also seen the number of transactions for a single copy of "TV Guide." Anthea: I saw the whole "I always really wanted to write" thing in YGM as a sop for softening the loss of the bookstore. And how come she was the one with all the emotional problems, when he was the one with the emotionally stunted upbringing? Sophia: Thanks for your input into the above. Ruth: I say shop where you get the service. If that's an indy store doing its job (hey, that's what we've got going for us, if we're smart) then yay for them! If they aren't treating you right, then you have no obligation to continue to deal with them and the right to seek better service elsewhere. My only point is that if you like what your indy store offer you, the only way to show your support that matters is with your $$. It doesn't matter to me if I get all sorts of nice notes from "customers" telling me how much they value our expertise and our information if they are taking it and spending their book money elsewhere. The natural consequence will be the eventual loss of us as an information source. Madrone: Glad you liked my "rectangular objects R Us" Pax, Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:39:55 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: follow up on an older OT subject MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > FALSE LABOR PAINS LEAD TO ESCAPE - TWICE > > After twice claiming she was having labor pains to enable her to > escape from custody, a 23-year-old woman is back in the El Paso County > Jail. > Tina Rae Wilson was being held at the Colorado Mental Health > Institute in Pueblo in March when she complained she was having > contractions, and escaped after she was taken to a hospital. She was > captured April 30th, but used the same ruse to escape again, only to be > arrested the next day. > Wilson gave birth to a girl last week. -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: previous message typos/Dystopias to watch out for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" transcendent genius...mythic underpinning...either too much caffiene or too little. While UPN managed to present a goofy (occasionally witty) women-only-world pseudodystopia film earlier this season, the usually atrocious OUTER LIMITS revival (on Showtime cable, then syndicated to broadcast stations) managed to present a genuinely offensive episode incorporating the same situation. If the title "Lithia" comes up while you're wasting some time before the tube, be warned (my roommate noted that only the women who had sex with the revived male are killed, for a little virgin/whore action atop the other offenses). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:05:51 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Cathie Miller wrote: >I guess I'd have to say I consider this a moral issue. I really >believe that most of us don't have what it takes to be loyal or to >be inconvenienced. Because supporting an independent is >inconvenient. It's driving out of your way to get your books. It's >spending the extra money on the books, instead of on the value >meal. It's waiting for the order to come in. It's doing a little >more homework than scanning the well-stocked megashelves for >available titles when you've run out of ideas. Every week for the past 6-7 years I've wasted 15-20 hours and heck knows how much money trying to support independents, volunteering, buying things I didn't want, going places I hated and sneering at "most of us" who simply hadn't got what it takes to be loyal or to be inconvenienced. Over the last 2 weeks I've taken a careful look at the way I live and realised that "most of us" are right and that Ive wasted time and money by acting like a fool. >Being loyal to an independent is a sign of character. It's no >different than embracing enduring values. This is how I see it, >and I don't think there's anything wrong with that perspective. It's a >better perspective for me than the cynical, >relax-and-accept-it perspective a lot of my friends have. Why? I ask this as a serious question. Yesterday for the first time in 5 or 6 years, I did all my shopping at one big store instead of going from small shop to small shop. It took 30 minutes instead of the usual 2 hours and cost $60 less. How is it a sign of good character to stomp around for an extra 90 minutes and waste $60 instead of getting home early and spending 90 minutes relaxing with my partner? > To my friends, I'm an anachronism, I'm the butt of casual jokes, >I'm considered naive to the nature of big business, and a member of >a losing team. Well, I've been marginalized most of my life. I >guess I'm comfortable with it. I cant help wondering how much of a strain behaving like that puts on relationships with partners and friends. I hope that none of my friends view me as an object of mild contempt. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 14 May 99, at 8:38, Santanico wrote: > I mean, come on, am I the only one who finds it funny that there's a bunch > of people here seriously discussing the deep moral and ethical subtexts > behind "You've Got Mail"? I mean, for God's sakes, it's "You've Got Mail"! I've no idea who the "bunch of people seriously discussing the deep moral and ethical subtexts" behind _You've got mail_; I haven't noticed any on this list. It's unnecessary to imagine subtexts because the plot is pretty clear if a little more complex than for most similar films. If you think a little more deeply (try Tylenol if it hurts), you'll see that the metaphor I described is, in fact, a rather trite and certainly not very original plot. My comments weren't too original either - they were derived partly from Nora Ephron and partly from Sue Hartland. You've allowing your contempt for romantic fiction to override your obviously limited analytical faculties. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant: Denton-LeSage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By the way, where'd >you get the "moral high ground" business? They offer the relatively cheap >benefits they do so they can get people like yourself to stay, but I'm >amused (please forgive me) that you think the corp really values its >employees, unless attitudes have changed enormously They haven't. The moral high ground I referred to was not necessarily what you have been talking about--I was addressing an attitude that seems prevalent rather than any specific comment. Lazy of me, and possibly unfair. And of course B/N doesn't value its employees any more or less than any other huge conglomerate does. Or, for that matter, any more or less than I value the opportunity to work for them. The fact remains that the benefits they offer their employees outstrip any which are usually offered to people at this skill level, and of course those will retain people like me for far longer than would, say, McDonalds. And please don't mistake me for someone who loves Riggio--I am well aware that he has gone on record as having claimed that if it was a hardware store which first hired him when he was in college, he would have created Home Depot instead of Barnes and Noble. And that he doesn't seem to be a reader himself. The company has its faults, no question. I was simply trying to make the point that it also has its good points, and in the hands of good management, which my store has and--to be honest--the other B/N here in town does not, it can be a great place to work. Of course, if a community college or a small four-year school were able to hire me, I'd be gone in the blink of an eye. But I sure would miss that 30% discount. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:50:33 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the POINT is that it's inconvenient to support diversity. if others don't like it that my priorities are old-hat, that's their problem. and maybe i don't want people in my life who want it easy and cheap at the cost of everything else. Ruth t wrote: > Cathie Miller wrote: > > >I guess I'd have to say I consider this a moral issue. I really > >believe that most of us don't have what it takes to be loyal or to > >be inconvenienced. Because supporting an independent is > >inconvenient. It's driving out of your way to get your books. It's > >spending the extra money on the books, instead of on the value > >meal. It's waiting for the order to come in. It's doing a little > >more homework than scanning the well-stocked megashelves for > >available titles when you've run out of ideas. > > Every week for the past 6-7 years I've wasted 15-20 hours and heck knows how > much money trying to support independents, volunteering, buying things I > didn't want, going places I hated and sneering at "most of us" who simply > hadn't got what it takes to be loyal or to be inconvenienced. Over the last > 2 weeks I've taken a careful look at the way I live and realised that "most > of us" are right and that Ive wasted time and money by acting like a fool. > > >Being loyal to an independent is a sign of character. It's no > >different than embracing enduring values. This is how I see it, > >and I don't think there's anything wrong with that perspective. It's a > >better perspective for me than the cynical, > >relax-and-accept-it perspective a lot of my friends have. > > Why? I ask this as a serious question. Yesterday for the first time in 5 or > 6 years, I did all my shopping at one big store instead of going from small > shop to small shop. It took 30 minutes instead of the usual 2 hours and cost > $60 less. How is it a sign of good character to stomp around for an extra 90 > minutes and waste $60 instead of getting home early and spending 90 minutes > relaxing with my partner? > > > To my friends, I'm an anachronism, I'm the butt of casual jokes, > >I'm considered naive to the nature of big business, and a member of > >a losing team. Well, I've been marginalized most of my life. I > >guess I'm comfortable with it. > > I cant help wondering how much of a strain behaving like that puts on > relationships with partners and friends. I hope that none of my friends view > me as an object of mild contempt. > > Ruth > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant: ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a great duffy old copy of "The >Plant Kingdom" at my elbow that was published in 1935 and has wonderful line >drawings. Nothing like that at the warehouse book stores. True. Sometime you'll have to come and see my collection of pre-1900 books I've found at grange halls and dusty old used bookstores. However, most of the book-buying public is not impressed. Even collectors, twisted types that they tend to be, don't buy old or interesting books because they are old or interesting (god forbid there be an inscription inside!), but because some "expert" has told them that such-and-such title will someday be, or is already, valuable. > >I still think they would sell lots more books if they sold real books instead >of pictures and stuff in dust jackets. Sometimes marketing wins out over >value and I feel sorry for people who don't have access to the small stores. > >Madrone Alas, this is almost certainly not the case. Of course people exist who want what you describe, but they are very few and far between. Think about the tiny, tiny percentage of people, at least in the U.S., who actually buy more than one book per year. I believe it's around 2%. Possibly higher in other nations, but I don't know. Now think about what those people read--mostly romances or bestsellers. There might---might---be a million people nationwide, most of them in large cities or college towns, who even care that "real" books exist, let alone want to spend money on them. As I have said before, I used to think I could sell to these people, and I consider myself one of them, but having spent as much time as I have actually watching what people buy and hearing them discuss their reasons, (and trying to teach their children to write clear prose) I think you're caught up in wishful thinking. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:26:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Denton-LeSage Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to order my books from B. Dalton years >back but it seemed the books I needed to order that would never show to >their search system would be in my hand in a couple weeks with this small >store. I hear though things may change as the distribution to independent >bookshops got bought up by one of the megabookstore companies. > Yes--Ingram warehouses/distribution is in the process of being bought by Barnes and Noble. I hope the sale does not go through, and so should you. It's being challenged in the courts, and if it does go through, it would come very close to the monopoly referred to by Anthea. As for orders, B/N has a system now which polls the Ingram warehouses, nationwide, about every 15 minutes. So no more 6 weeks. B/N can tell you exactly which titles exist, and in which warehouses, and thus which ones can be in your hands in less than a week at no extra charge. To me, this ought to be competition enough, but the chain management thinks differently. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:30:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Springer Subject: Wiscon room share? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry to clog the list with a personal query, but I'm desperate. I just discovered--too late--that the hotel for Wiscon is completely booked for Friday and Saturday. Is there anyone out there who would be willing to share a room with a non-smoking, friendly female (me, obviously) for those nights? Any leads would be gratefully appreciated. Thanks, Rebecca Springer libraryhead@yahoo.com rebecca.springer@harpercollins.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:34:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: OT: Looking for feminist online resources for caretakers of peopl e with disabilities. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'll certainly forgive Rebecca Springer, if you all will forgive me, as I'm researching for a friend who is trying to drum up awareness of what happens (usually institutionalization, it seems) to the people with disabilities when their caretakers are ill. Any leads will be appreciated. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:13:02 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: the 'B' stores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit for those of you who do not read Locus, here is something from May's editorial section, page 71, by Charles N. Brown: "If you've bought Locus at Barnes & Noble or B. Dalton in the past, you probably won't find it there anymore. B&N has instituted a new policy: they now charge smaller magazines for 'shrinkage,' which means that, if a copy of the magazine is stolen from the store, or misplaced, or thrown out, or if the sales clerk puts in the wrong number, or uses an override price code...the publisher not only doesn't get a sale, he has to pay for the copy, even though it hasn't been returned or stripped. We've gotten a letter from our distributor, IPD, asking us to sign an agreement to the new policy. Even though the number of copies may be small, I can't sign a letter that makes us responsible for B&N's store security, clerk training, and mistakes, so we'll probably be dropped by them. Our non-subscription sales have been dropping steadily as the chains take over, with the independent stores and specialty stores, which used to be our lifeblood, disappearing faster and faster. We used to be able to deal directly with individual chain stores, sending copies only to those that really wanted them. Then we were forced to sell only through a distributor, with dramatically increased costs and returns. We've lost about half our bookstore sales over the past five years...and may end up, as we started 30 years ago, a subscription-only magazine." now, let's carry this to its inevitable (not logical) conclusion: eventually, we will read what the megastores allow us to read. was anyone foretelling this 20 years ago? yes. and, was anyone listening? no. the cynics were saying, 'that won't happen in this country.' or, 'you're taking this too seriously.' the changes are gradual, and pretty soon, we forget what it's like to have choice. but, who cares? if only a couple-thousand people read something, it's not worth reading. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:17:55 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant: ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/99 2:21:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jocysher@SPRYNET.COM writes: << buy old or interesting books because they are old or interesting (god for >> Actually, I have the a1935 book because it explains botanical principles better than the new (god save us) books the colleges require for textbooks. So, here's a subject: The books I have to use to teach from are lousy, do not speak to the students, explain simple scientific principles in committee-ese, have illustrations that don't work, on and on...I get complaints from the students, hear complaints from other teachers, and have to endlessly copy off handouts and occasionally say: "Read chapter six, but skip over pages 105 to 110" because it is gibberish. I have started using pre-1960's books for classroom tasks because those books are written in a clear non-nonsense style that the students can understand. No wonder nobody wants to read. They have had to suffer for years with murky textbooks in school. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:51:39 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores/ my unsolicited rant. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/13/99 1:21:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jocysher@SPRYNET.COM writes: << What don't the big stores offer? >> Science books that have more than pop science and pictures. The big stores do have picture keys, but those can be found cheaper at second hand. If you want an ordinary cookbook, or car repair manual, or run of the mill novel the new stores are fine. But you can get all of those things cheaper second hand, and more besides. Anybody hear of Powell's in Oregon or Shorey's in Seattle? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:50:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: a Organization: @Home Network Subject: terribly sorry to interupt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, >From what I know I have been subscribed to this list as an attack upon my persona... Though I am sympathetic to feminizm I am not a female :-) therefore I would like to be removed from this list. thank you -akx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:44:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:42 PM 14/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >I've no idea who the "bunch of people seriously discussing the deep moral and >ethical subtexts" behind _You've got mail_; I haven't noticed any on this >list. Maybe you need to look at the backlog of email on this topic from the last few days. I've heard folks here discussing, in all seriousness, the feminist/anti-feminist ideologies behind the film, and its subtext regarding small bookstores vs. big megachains. It's unnecessary to imagine subtexts because the plot is pretty clear >if a little more complex than for most similar films. If you think a little >more deeply (try Tylenol if it hurts), Ouch. That stung. Please, don't inflict your rapier wit on me any more. I promise I'll be good. you'll see that the metaphor I >described is, in fact, a rather trite and certainly not very original plot. >My comments weren't too original either - they were derived partly from Nora >Ephron and partly from Sue Hartland. Anthea, where did you get this idea that I was personally attacking you? It was an offhand, throwaway comment on a discussion that, I felt, was getting rather ridiculous. >You've allowing your contempt for romantic fiction to override your obviously >limited analytical faculties. Well, pardon me if I found it silly to use my "limited analytical faculties" on a trivial romantic comedy. But I see now that I was wrong. Never again shall I allow my "contempt for romantic fiction" to segue into the heartless mockery of such a fine and complex cinematic achievement as "You've Got Mail". Sant.